balance-feedback-discussion

[dawn falcon]

It’s also not just to give an opening for your buddies. It’s also to try and defend yourself with damage that isn’t minuscule.

[swift beacon]

hell, even going from 55 to 60 makes the Dryo matchup a 2-shot instead of a 3-shot

[frosty heron]

3 Shot on a Dryo when you can pounce it and instakill it

Not big of a deal

[swift beacon]

... or miss, eat dirt, and lose your lunch.

[frosty heron]

Then if you go for bites 2 seems reasonable

[swift beacon]

right, and it would be

but, a change as seemingly innocuous as a 5N increase can have rippling effects, as you see

[dawn falcon]

Mind if I get some info on how much dryo weigh

Weighs

[swift beacon]

120 kg

[frosty heron]

Yes but if you consider the effects on bigger creatures, as right now 32 bites on a Carno seems a bit too much

[swift beacon]

perhaps so, but also maybe not

[dawn falcon]

So 75 and 85 would still be a 2 shot for dryo

[thin mantle]

With it's alt turn, yes, denying this would be incredibly foolish

[dawn falcon]

I don’t see the problem with that, as dryo can run and try to escape it.

[swift beacon]

75 and 85 would be a 2-shot on Dryo, but they make the Utah mirror-match a 6-shot

meanwhile at 60N it's an 8-shot

[fiery mantle]

is the utah turn radius being fixed at least or is he gonna stay unable to juke as well as he used to

[frosty heron]

Headshots on Carnos don't even count as you will never land those on an animal with the head that tall in comparison

[swift beacon]

I would not consider Utah headshotting Carno to be a normal occurence

[dawn falcon]

Correct, do keep in mind most Utah’s will try to pounce you rather than bite.

[raw sparrow]

why buff bite power when incentive is to pounce?

[swift beacon]

^

[thin mantle]

I don't know, I would hope. Honestly creatures below teno weight shouldn't really be effected by inertia. Just destroys any potential advantages that "agility" provides

[swift beacon]

if you buff bite power too much, we return to the LMB fest of update 3.5

[dawn falcon]

Hold on, I’ll type a decent paragraph explaining why

[thin mantle]

I honestly don't think I've ever done that before xD

[frosty heron]

Alright, don't buff the bite then, more bleed for the pounce, or touch the stamina

[dawn falcon]

^

Either

[swift beacon]

ah, yes.

[golden coral]

I think they're going to rework inertia. If even a hypsi has issues, I think it's a little .. over the top perhaps? :p

[dawn falcon]

Actually

[raw sparrow]

pounce bleed needs a buff which theyre gonna do next patch

[thin mantle]

That would be very good

[dawn falcon]

Was this explained in the stream?

[hallow spire]

good

[swift beacon]

adding more bleed to pounce would help with the intended method of using attrition to kill things larger to yourslf

[dawn falcon]

That I disagree with

I would not like Utah to have 150N again

God

[swift beacon]

surprisingly enough

[frosty heron]

It was 130 actually

[dawn falcon]

Ah true

[swift beacon]

Utah at 130N was an 8-shot

on the mirror match

currently at 55N the Utah mirror-match is a 9-shot, but just barely

so proportionally speaking, Utah's bite isn't that much less powerful

[golden coral]

As long as it doesn't get too much. Not sure if it needs more than the recent buff or not.

[thin mantle]

Does utah need to have balancing to fight eachother? Seems pretty counter intuitive to an animal that's supposed to use numbers as an advantage

[dawn falcon]

That was also because Utah’s HP was 1000

[thin mantle]

It definitely does, the amount of bleed it does rn is depressingly low

[swift beacon]

you balance against the mirror match because it helps determine whether assets will fight each other for shits and giggles

[thin mantle]

Right, but it's not exactly an important matchup to consider for utah specifically

[swift beacon]

au contraire my varanid headache-inducer

[frosty heron]

Consider Utah hp got nerfed 55%

The overall nerf its actually big, from 130 to 55 its over 60%

[swift beacon]

considering the mirror match is always important because it gives you an idea of how well an asset performs against assets of similar size

you cannot reasonably hope to balance an asset against every single other asset without jumping through logistical nightmares

[thin mantle]

Apologies, I don't mean to sound contrarian xD

[swift beacon]

ah, it's no worries

I just felt like that was something witty to say

[red forum]

Considering a mirror match is useless considering this game is not a 1v1, it's a pack vs a herd so a mirror match is not going to realistically happen.

[swift beacon]

realistically, no.

Utah's HP is a pretty close analogue to Pachy, Mono, Rugops, Dilo, etc. though

[golden coral]

Perhaps. I'll concede that I don't know since I've yet to test it out myself, but since I am in favour of longer and harder hunts, I don't want it to go back to just requiring a few pounces and you're good. It should require a decent amount of pounces to get results. (This in relation to stego, of course carno and teno should require fewer in relation to stego.)

[swift beacon]

if we gauge it such that Utah kills another Utah in X bites, Y alt-bites, or Z seconds of pounce, though, we can approximate that to equal the rough effort needed to kill any of those aforementioned assets

[golden coral]

Eh.. I don't know, you don't balance for groups, you balance for 1v1.

[swift beacon]

you balance for roughly equal weight

[red forum]

Still doesn't matter considering all of these dinos are pack/herd animals meaning that a 1v1 won't happen

[swift beacon]

I'd say that Pachy is very much not a herd animal

it is very... angry

[golden coral]

I don't think you can reason like that. You can absolutely end up in a 1v1, and even so. It's still the base for balance. So we can still reason like that.

You don't balance for groups.

At least not in the manner you seem to think of.

[red forum]

But if groups is the main way people play, why balance for 1v1s?

[swift beacon]

let me put it this way

you don't balance for groups or 1v1s exclusively

[thin mantle]

Oh for sure it does not, check out some of Soads notes, they're in a link above, I've done some testing on a friends server as well just to clarify. The amount of bleed that utahs do now is a fraction of their former values, almost to a point where lacking 8+ members makes stegos incapable of being hunted at all

[trim ginkgo]

Just gonna slip in here rq, people won't listen to "Your group limit is x" nine times out of ten.
That's all from here.

[golden coral]

Because if you balance for groups, then you need to have that group for the balance. What happens when I go solo then? You can balance like that for "punching up" but never for survival itself. Sure, a utah may not be able to hunt a stego solo, but a utah must be balanced 1v1 to survive.

[swift beacon]

oh, not even considering group limits

don't give a rat's ass about 'em

I look at it from a perspective of "if roughly X kg of these assets encounter each other, what happens?"

[red forum]

Even with balancing for this mystical 1v1, Utah is still absolute hot garbage. Even in packs, utah can't hunt much and the hunts take way too long.

And like I said before, most people play in groups.

[swift beacon]

so, in the case of Stego vs Utahs, that'd be 6000 kg of Stego vs... 5850-6300 kg of Utah

but if you look at it in terms of Pachy vs Utahs, that's more like

500 kg of Pachy vs 450-900 kg of Utah

leaning more towards 450

[golden coral]

I've seen his document, and I agree it doesn't look impressive. But I'm still not sure it's that bad, after all, others have claimed you can hunt stegos over 15 min, +/-. in utah packs of 7-8. Maybe you could touch up the bleed a little, but I'm cautious on it because I don't think going back to prior is neccesary.

[golden coral]

I didn't say anything on how good utah was. I just explained why you balance for 1v1. For survival purposes. And I don't think the hunts take too long, but that's obviously subjective. And in 2-4, you can hunt carnos and tenos. In 6-9 you can hunt stegos.

[thin mantle]

Considering how hard it is to get a good angle now that inertia, speed nerfs, and stegos increased turn rate and tail control are in the game, pouncing has never been more difficult. Plus it's your only way of dealing damage.

[swift beacon]

in essence, you look at balance as roughly being "if these two assets meet, is there a very clear size difference at play?" and from there you either try to get a group of one vs a lone member of the other, or engage in honorable 1v1 combat

though, "honorable" might be a bit strong a word

[golden coral]

xD

[thin mantle]

Typically good game balance in this game is "If it can run from what it can't fight but can defend from what it cannot run from it is balanced on a basal level" There is room for error for terrain and skill level but that's simply in regard to capability

[swift beacon]

that too

[golden coral]

It's perfectly possible that it's a bit too much, and the inertia I've already said needs to be worked on. Not sure on speeds, since I am fan of the global speed nerfs, if only for better performance. But I'm not sure it's that hard to land pounces, it sure as heck wasn't before this patch, and I'm not used to the inertia so there is that. But again, I will be utah for a week or so, and see how it goes!

[swift beacon]

though there are situations where "run from what it can't fight" can be traded out for "outlast, and/or generally evade"

[golden coral]

And pounce was not hard to land before, at least not for me.

So I.. can't really say much on the "never been more difficult", because I never percieved it as difficult in the first place.

[red forum]

I guess 6-9 Utah’s work, if the stego doesn’t fight back. Utah has been put into a bad place in balance right now where it’s not balanced for a 1v1, which is fine, but it also can’t do anything in a group since it’s damage and bleed are very low. Balancing it for a pack would make it the pack animal it’s supposed to be and make it be able to hunt prey in a reasonable amount of time.

[thin mantle]

Well yeah, those are essentially synonymous

[swift beacon]

not always

for example, Utah should probably not run from Carno in the sense of fucking booking it the other way since that... very quickly goes south

[golden coral]

Well, from what I understood the stego did fight back. I don't know how good it was, or what it did, but other people have successfully hunted stegos, so it's doable. And I'm not sure you're understanding my point on balancing 1v1 and why, so maybe we should pass on that discussion for now. It's also late, I am tired, and may not be expressing myself as clear as I should by now.

[swift beacon]

but breaking ankles, making use of agility, and making Carno gas itself out while remaining mostly out of harm's way long enough to get out of dodge would classify as outlasting and generally evading

[red forum]

It’s doable, but the time to do it is ridiculous. Also I understand passing on the 1v1 vs group balancing, have a nice night

[golden coral]

Correct. Viable means you have to have the means to survive an encounter, be it by fighting, running, or some mixture/evasion/similar. If you can't do any of it, you're not a viable playable and should be worked on or removed.

[swift beacon]

it rightly should take a long time

[thin mantle]

Yeah test it out, after simply not being able to kill anything for a certain period of time I got bored of it tbh. Every time I was in a pack 3-4 carnos would run up and kill us all before we could get into any actual hunt. A couple times we were able to fight a lone stego but we were never successful, after the first 4 utahs dropped I just gave up. Especially if the stego has a teno or another stego working with them, it just becomes impossible to land hits.

[ocean glade]

So i just killed 3 full adult carnos as a teno while only losing half hp, guess the carnos were not that good but wtf

[golden coral]

How long was the time? Because to me the times I got told sounded perfectly fine, bordering on short. But again, that's ever so subjective so there is that. And thank you. I'm not going to sleep just yet, but it's maybe best to not talk too complicated shit when I can barely think. :p

[hallow spire]

lmao

[swift beacon]

Carnos that run at you and make no effort to dodge your defense attempts should die, yes

[thin mantle]

Indeed, although positioning is also important, and that more so applies to larger playables since they have a more locationally anchored playstyle.

[ocean glade]

@swift beacon well they started out doing that, making me miss a couple slams but then 2 of em got stunned at the same time and the third one just bullrushed lol

[swift beacon]

smashing their heads in with your tail before they get in range is kind of the entire way the Tenonto gameplay goes

[thin mantle]

Sleep is for the weak, embrace insomnia

[swift beacon]

sounds to me like everything's working as intended

[thin mantle]

If they couldn't do that teno would be unviable

[swift beacon]

aye

[golden coral]

I'll be the first in line to complain about herbi mixing. It's as shit as carnis mixing, despite that not being a popular opinion at all! But yeah, I'll see what I can achieve.

[swift beacon]

though I can see an argument for making the tail be a zoning and stunning tool, with the back kick being the big damage-dealer

[thin mantle]

If you can take down a teno in a group of 3-4 I will literally send you a cookie

[thin mantle]

That might work if the kick hitbox was fixed

[golden coral]

No. You've kept me here far too long already. Stop ruining my sleep schedule by being all too interesting to talk to!

[swift beacon]

🤷

[thin mantle]

Fine I'll stfu! There happy >:D

[swift beacon]

as far as I can tell the kick hitbox works right but I am also absolute dogshit at combat

so I could be wrong in this assessment

[thin mantle]

It's pretty small, it can barely reach your toes when bucking

[swift beacon]

ah, but that's the price for that power

[thin mantle]

Well positioning that is a logistical nightmare, since you almost need to walk ahead of the stunned target and turn around so you clip into their hitbox

[wanton coral]

I feel like the game is turning into the epitome of “have obnoxiously good playing skills or get out”. I haven’t played today with the update or anything but from what all the discussions are talking about, you have to be really good at coordinating, be super perceptive, etc to do anything as Utah. Can someone fill me in? I have been moving boxes all day 😅

[swift beacon]

a fair argument, though would you say that getting hit repeatedly with the big overhead tail that's about as long as the Tenonto's body is better as the hunting party?

[swift beacon]

Utah does pretty well against the very small and the very large

[golden coral]

Yes and no. You are correct in it being important, but I don't think balancing based on a given terrain is a good way to do it. Since you can not always guarantee that is available. Hence why the whole "stego head in tree" is dumb to me. Bucking should be the proper defense vs pounce, since it is basic. (as a mechanic, the mechanic itself could be made more interesting, like with a balance mechanic or attack/cling variants for the utah vs bucking and so on).

And yes, I should go now.. damn it all! :p

[thin mantle]

Oh I meant more so about how deino is a sitting duck out of water and stuff like that :l
Not a terrain exploit

[wanton coral]

I’m getting mixed opinions on it’s stat updates. I might just have to play it to figure it out, but by the sounds of it, many people are struggling

[swift beacon]

pin does a fair amount of damage in a small amount of time to assets if you land it properly, while the pounce is a very safe method of applying a notable amount of bleed damage to a target as long as you can keep people getting on and off

[swift beacon]

they are not used to how the pounce currently operates

it is an attritional tool rather than something that deals a large amount of damage in a matter of seconds

[wanton coral]

Didn’t read much on the pounce, just speed and agility being crap now

[thin mantle]

Utah has decreased drastically in it's versatility for sure. Pouncing is the only reliable way to deal damage, and it requires a lot of waiting. Avoid carnos at all costs, you can't fight them

[swift beacon]

the agility is a very mixed bag because of the inertia mechanic

[golden coral]

True, but then deino is a bit of a special case as it stands with a very clear biome-locked behaviour. It would be more comparable for deino vs something in water then, or ptera vs another flier I guess. But I think you get the idea of what I mean.

And oh yeah, challenge accepted! I will kill a teno, a smaller one if I'm alone, or a bigger one if I can find useful packmates (so far most of the time I find other players, it's a detriment to my own wellbeing). Assuming we can find tenos in the first place that is!

[thin mantle]

Inertia is a bitch, I really hope it gets removed in some fascet

[golden coral]

Inertia changes, which obviously take some time to get used to.

[thin mantle]

😭 Godspeed soldier

[swift beacon]

speed is surprisingly not as big an issue since everything except Hypsi and possibly Stego got slowed down

[thin mantle]

I really don't think that it's a matter of getting used to it, you simply have less control

[swift beacon]

inertia is a bit fucky I won't lie

[golden coral]

I'll learn about that too when I play utah I'm sure. But you're most likely right there.

[thin mantle]

Oh try tapping and holding A or D for like .3-.5 seconds

You almost drift off in that direction irrespective of your inpute

It's so aggravating

[swift beacon]

inertia's actually a bit more sinister than that

it transitions you from trot to walk to stop to walk to trot in a somewhat short period of time

but it's a noticeable period of time

unless you take a certain turn radius you'll quite literally stop in the middle of running

which is more than enough time for something like Hypsi to get snagged by Utah

[thin mantle]

It is just... it makes basic movement a battle for your own sanity. I don't care if it's unrealistic or not to have it removed but the smoother movement that we had before allowed agility to be a factor and was just more satisfying to use

[swift beacon]

mhm.

[thin mantle]

This is one of the only times in a survival game you'll hear me say "Fuck off physics you make this game depressingly frustrating"

[swift beacon]

inertia needs reworking, and it's possible that it may be better to remove entirely depending on how much they're willing to budge on how it needs to be reworked

[thin mantle]

Apply it in a small degree to massive bipedal animals, if you absolutely must

Shant, rex, giga, acro sure fine give it to them.... a bit

Don't make running across a field a chore. God I'm so mad at this mechanic holy crap.

Sry I need a drink

[swift beacon]

'sall good

if anything it might be logical to just transition from running to trotting depending on turn radius

most assets' trots are not too much slower than their runs

[thin mantle]

Yeah, that's what we had before and it worked great, that's what carno did, stego did

Like it actually made movement dependent on player input instead of bullshit

😄

[swift beacon]

right, well, I'm probably gonna go hibernate until tomorrow

come dig me up if there's anyone that's unreasonably pissy about the changes I guess

[thin mantle]

Same tbh, I'll pop back in if someone is arguing something interesting but I'm gone for now

Thanks to all of y'all for partaking, I'm impressed by how reasonable this channel has been for the past hour

[tacit oriole]

Same tbh

I like inertia and realism, but I feel like the input schema is a bit too crude

Trying to do fast dodges with WASD without sliding is very annoying

I'll probably end up playing on a controller for the small therapods

[thin mantle]

To me I'm just, screw realism in this case, this game doesn't have to be 100% realistic. If we strove for realism irrespective of gameplay then Deino would 1 shot every dino in the game, a utah pounce would be enough to kill both stegos and carnos, and the carno charge would 1 shot tenos utahs and everything below that (and probably break your carnos neck). Inertia just makes evasion and general terrain traversal a frustrating mess, and this is even more impactful on gameplay now that the speed nerf is in full effect.

Sorry for the long reply but the depths of my frustration with this mechanic are boundless

[tacit oriole]

I feel like the game is almost being dumbed down in the last patch. Dinos have been hard-bound into niches with little ability to punch outside it

[thin mantle]

Yeah Utah's versatility has been severely decreased now that it only has 1 reliable way to deal damage

The only things that have stayed relatively unchanged are teno and.... well actually that's it. The only ones that take more skill now are carno, deino, and arguably hypsi?

Everything else just got a playstyle simplification.

Ptera basically doesn't deal damage, dryo is now slower than utah so it's basically got to rely on jukes (with inertia.....oof)

[tacit oriole]

Fine, deleted my proposed teno nerf. When y'all realise how OP it is vs carno I'll make it again.

[thin mantle]

Oh?

[spare badger]

A ptera almost killed me
It stopped me from wallowing and my screen started going dark

[tacit oriole]

Bunch of salty teno mains made condescending reactions. Teno vs carno is broken now, and I play teno

Cruises around official in a 3 teno pack last night and we were untouchable

[thin mantle]

If 2 carnos fight 1 teno the teno is pretty screwed, 1 teno vs 1 carno is pretty fair. I play heaps of carno and it's hard to kill them, but it's doable, and requires a significantly higher degree of strategy and baiting

Plus carno isn't supposed to hunt tenos anyway

But that isn't a relevant argument until carno get's its prefered prey group

[tacit oriole]

Spent a bunch of time practicing teno vs carno on a private server and it is way worse for carno now.

[tacit oriole]

Then what IS meant to hunt teno?

And stego for that matter

[thin mantle]

Utahs, ceratos, allos, deinos at water (although that applies to pretty much everything)

There is a ton that can hunt them, hell I soloed 2 tenos yesterday as a carno

[tacit oriole]

Utahs - pfft. 3v1 can work, but get 2-3 tenos and utahs don't stand a chance.

Everything else is probably years away

[thin mantle]

And they shouldn't.... that's fine

Utahs are much better at hunting stegos anyway

[tacit oriole]

If pounce actually worked right, sure. But it's still poopy half the time and utahs aren't a threat to stego blood pools unless the stego is seriously noob

[thin mantle]

Oh hell yeah utahs have been nerfed into the ground

[tacit oriole]

I have a stego on NA1 and a teno on NA3 and both felt like apexes

Totally untouchable

[thin mantle]

They won't be for long tho with the way literally everyone has been reacting to the fixes, utah getting a bleed buff was already confirmed

[thin mantle]

Ok?

[tacit oriole]

All I ever saw carnos hunting was utahs and deinos trying to cross shallows when I was on

[thin mantle]

Alright

[tacit oriole]

None tried to attack me as teno or stego, which is new. Carnos used to be a threat to stegos

[thin mantle]

Carnos never should have been a threat to stegos, stego being added to the game was a mistake anyway and unplanned for

[tacit oriole]

Certainly is now

[thin mantle]

It always was, it's the only reason carnos stats have been so high for so long

Because stegos literally had nothing to do prior

Now they've been lowered to where they should be (outside of alt bite which doesn't make any sense)

[tacit oriole]

Still don't like how carno deals nearly half the damage it did before - ignoring charge, which a good player won't let you land - while teno got a free pass

[thin mantle]

It used to deal 350, it now deals 200. So not half, plus deino did 500 and a carno dealing over half a deino bite is what really doesn't make sense. Plus from all the feedback I've been reading over the past few days, carno has never been in a stronger position

Considering it's literally immune to utahs now and can attack even after a failed charge due to alt bite

[tacit oriole]

The matchup was skewed in carnos favour before, but it's too far the other way now. And I did say 'nearly'.

[thin mantle]

As it should have always been, carno is one of the least optimized animals to be fighting a tenonto

"small game hunter"

Tenonto are nearly as big as carnos are, plus tenos quite literally need to deal more damage since they can't outrun carnos

If they did less damage they wouldn't be viable

[tacit oriole]

One tailslam is basically 1200 damage, or 1800 if you can get headshots. Compare that to the 6 perfect headshots a carno needs to get... I don't see it

[dawn falcon]

I’d say tenos are still quite small game in a tier sense

[thin mantle]

And that's a problem why? Carnos need to be weaker

[dawn falcon]

Especially to Carno

But that’s the limit to the small game

[thin mantle]

No xD They are absolutely not omg

Small game is troodon, dryo, hypsi, potentially utah but that's pushing it

[dawn falcon]

I said in a tier sense

Not the actual meaning

[thin mantle]

But that's irrelevant

[dawn falcon]

I disagree. Teno is the final “small game” Carno is allowed to hunt.

Beyond goes to medium and large game.

[spare badger]

If carno wants to hunt a teno
It should ambush and charge

[thin mantle]

It's possible but due to them being large and small relatively speaking, they need to deal more damage

That's just how balancing works

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's fine

[dawn falcon]

I’m still quite new to the convo tho

What’s it about

[spare badger]

They buffed charge too

[dawn falcon]

Filipe talked about nerfing it’s charge actually

[spare badger]

I think charge should be good

[tacit oriole]

Charge deals 500, no cool down, and a much shorter range, but it's hard to land outside pack bsttles

[spare badger]

If you get a good ambush you should be rewarded

[thin mantle]

It is good, what do you mean?

[spare badger]

Like
They shouldn't nerf it

[tacit oriole]

It got a massive buff last patch?

[thin mantle]

Indeed it did

500 base

[spare badger]

This is what I was referring to

Charge is fine now

[tacit oriole]

Yeah I know, was responding to lvl 5

[thin mantle]

Oh, well I wouldn't be able to tell

Sry about that

[tacit oriole]

It got buffed in every single regard, even uses less stamina noe

[dawn falcon]

I doubt it would be a serious nerf

Just enough to not one shot Utah

[tacit oriole]

It even deals damage to large targets now, 225

[thin mantle]

It'll prolly get nerfed more and more over time the more the roster is expanded low tier wise

[tacit oriole]

If you didn't know as well: you can get headshots with charge now too

[thin mantle]

Indeed, weren't you saying carno was too weak now?

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, I still think it is against competent prepared tenos

[thin mantle]

Well a competent teno should have the edge

[tacit oriole]

At least in the artificial battle settings we have on my server

[dawn falcon]

It’s still quite a 50/50 matchup

[tacit oriole]

In survival with ambushing... Different

[dawn falcon]

A competent Carno vs. a competent Teno is like the peak of Evrima

It’s super intense

[spare badger]

Yea

[thin mantle]

Yeah and even then I'd argue 50/50 is perfect if not too even. Teno wouldn't have a reason to exist if it didn't have an edge against carnos.

[tacit oriole]

It is better since they rolled back the tailslams changes. After the first patch it was possible to two-shot a carno

[thin mantle]

That was insanely broken

[spare badger]

Teno gets Stam slower now so I gotta be even more careful

But carno does less damage and dies quicker so I think it is finally teno favour
55/45 probably

Which makes sense teno can't run away

[thin mantle]

Yeah, that's kinda how it should be anyway

[tacit oriole]

If alt-bite didn't hard stop you it would be better, to be fair - if you could slide while doing it then keep running would be pretty sweet

[thin mantle]

How would that.... how would that even be possible?

[tacit oriole]

Same as the current hard turn slide, with a twist and bit thrown in

[thin mantle]

Carno could easily solo stegos if it had that

[dawn falcon]

Uh

Idk about that

Carno gets one shot by stegos

[tacit oriole]

Sliding at a stego head is not what you want as a carno lol

[spare badger]

That's a bit too good for smth that's supposed to turn bad

[dawn falcon]

Like let’s see

Stego has 6000 hp

Carno deals 200 n

And is one shot

[tacit oriole]

250 alt-bite

[thin mantle]

If it can alt bite while moving and maintain the same trajectory then continue running it would be able to kill pretty much everything considering it's the fastest dino in game

[spare badger]

Carno is one shot now?

[thin mantle]

Yes

[dawn falcon]

Yep

[spare badger]

How much health does it have now?

[tacit oriole]

One-shot headshot

[thin mantle]

1675

[tacit oriole]

1800

[thin mantle]

It was lowered I thought?

Wait...

[tacit oriole]

From 2000

Teno and carno both had 2k before

[thin mantle]

Right right

Ok yeah

Got it

[tacit oriole]

Stego headshot deals 1900ish

2500 against a stego

[spare badger]

Damn

[thin mantle]

The fact that it didn't before was confusing anyway

[spare badger]

Wtf do you do against stego now

[thin mantle]

Utahs

[spare badger]

We need like sucho or something to do any damage to it

[thin mantle]

Sucho would get demolished

[quick latch]

anyone else notice that they nerfed utah probably too much?

[spare badger]

Didn't they nerf pounce

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, but it meant you could safely engage a stego and be able to live through a single mistake. Now nobody is going to try

[thin mantle]

It can deal enough dps to facetank and it's not mobile enough

[thin mantle]

Nobody should

[thin mantle]

Indeed they did, it needs a buff and it's getting it

[spare badger]

Well an allo would get it's pelvis demolished with one swing so

A one hit ko stego makes sense

stego fractures?

[tacit oriole]

I will say this: teno vs carno was super broken for teno if the carno was smart and didn't care about their end HP. 1v1 was unwinnable vs a really good carno

[thin mantle]

Why not? A 2 hit stego didn't make sense before

[tacit oriole]

I still think it's too far the other way now

[spare badger]

Well

The problem is we don't have a big enough carnivore to hurt stego that well

[tacit oriole]

What a lot of people forgot or didn't know is you have 7.5s of stun immunity after getting kicked or slammed

[spare badger]

To prevent stunlocking?

[thin mantle]

Right, stego was a mistake

[tacit oriole]

Yeah

So if you got slammed don't run away, just soak the damage and go for headbites

[spare badger]

Kentro > Stego

[tacit oriole]

You win the dps race

[thin mantle]

Yes, woulda made so much more sense too

[spare badger]

Also kentro is awesome

[thin mantle]

Knowing this, teno is still stronger?

[tacit oriole]

With the new bite damage and healthpools you can't do that anymore

[thin mantle]

Good

[spare badger]

Teno can turn around and slam
Carno wins a claw vs bite

Well

Used to

Idk about now

[tacit oriole]

Claw got nerfed a little, 125 from 200

But the bleed is more significant

[thin mantle]

Regardless, it really shouldn't be able to out dps a teno, it makes no sense

[tacit oriole]

I mean, it also make no sense how a teno can headshot a carno with its tail

But that's besides the point

[thin mantle]

How does that not making any sense? It hits the carno... in the head... with it's tail

[spare badger]

Teno raises its tail pretty high up

[thin mantle]

Naturally blunt force would be more effective if hitting something in the brain

[tacit oriole]

Teno tailslam on a carno head would be like a 1 inch punch for a human

Would be a shove, not a slam

[spare badger]

I disagree

[thin mantle]

Yeah me 2

[tacit oriole]

Fair, I'll get a picture if I can

Anyway, it is actually pretty hard to land it so I'm not complaining

[spare badger]

Yea

[tacit oriole]

It's a lot easier once they are stunned obv

[thin mantle]

Yeah it's a stationary attack that locks you in place for roughly 1.5 seconds

[thin mantle]

Well yeah you can't miss xD

[spare badger]

You can

[thin mantle]

If you do..... well maybe you should just stop playing teno

[tacit oriole]

I can haha

[spare badger]

If you press the wrong button ;)

[tacit oriole]

Sometimes that damn tail just doesn't go where you are aiming

[thin mantle]

Oh shut up😆

[spare badger]

Even before the balance changes
I murked carnos

But cause the carnos are all trash

[thin mantle]

Perhaps tenos do have the "tail brain" that stegos were once theorized to have. That's why ya miss

[spare badger]

Lol

[tacit oriole]

By joves I think you've got it

[thin mantle]

I notice that most of the carno playerbase is relatively new or just doesn't understand facetanking doesn't work

Because it's all too often attempted

[tacit oriole]

Yeah the old strats don't work anymore

[thin mantle]

And it's hilarious

Begone assriders!

[tacit oriole]

Same as utahs trying to bite you to death

[thin mantle]

Yeah :/ although the fact that the utah bite has the equivalent force of a woodpecker is pretty depressing

[tacit oriole]

Barely does more than a ptera used to. Sadge

[wild cove]

Honestly I just see most people whining about Utah while thinking to myself "but did you use it how its supposed to be used"

[thin mantle]

x<

[tacit oriole]

That is pretty much exactly what the Devs are pushing

[thin mantle]

If pounce is the only viable attack or defense method it cuts down it's versatility and skill ceiling by a good amount

[tacit oriole]

It was like... Utah has pounce, carno has charge, but neither ever get used. Let's buff those and nerf everything else

[thin mantle]

Run up to flank, rmb, jump off and get stam

That's it, it's not even that hard to do this consistently to stegos

[tacit oriole]

All Utah really need is the pounce dismount actually properly fixed and it will be a threat again

[wild cove]

Even before the recent skill patch, I've only ever had a Carno use charge on me once, I didn't even know he was there until he hit me with it. Honestly I wasn't even mad I died. I was just impressed someone was actually taking the time to use the dino's toolkit it was supposed to use

[tacit oriole]

Full length pounces are genuinely threatening to carnos and tenos, but the dismount is a death sentence still

[tacit oriole]

I could never get the danged thing to trigger when I needed it

[thin mantle]

This is an overcorrection on utahs part tho, completely negating your bite is just... that's too much

[wild cove]

Utahs could probably use a little bit of love yeah. The trick is just not adjusting it again too much.

[thin mantle]

I don't care if you are supposed to use your pounce, because players did use pounce all the time. Every utah hunt had at least 3-4. Biting was just a method of attack and defense that didn't drain all of your stam

[tacit oriole]

Once U4 is out expect a lot of small quick tweaks I think

[thin mantle]

Which is kinda required when the thing trying to kill you all the time is faster than you

[thin mantle]

Yeah most likely

[wild cove]

Yeah. I'm guessing they swung really far the other way to see how it plays and they'll adjust once all the feedback comes in

[tacit oriole]

Part of the issue is I think their codebase management doesn't support forks and such to tweak U3 while U4 is deep into development

[wild cove]

It is a little silly though because I feel a lot of people just don't want to actually use Utah abilities or actually have to take time to kill something like a freaking Stego

[thin mantle]

I used to do it all the time, most utah players did too. That's why this nerf came out of absolutely nowhere to most of us

[tacit oriole]

Utah was just a little agile carno with a jump, let's be real

[wild cove]

A lot of people seem to assume carnis in general being able to cheese everything is "balance"

[thin mantle]

I just don't get this

[tacit oriole]

Most people played Utah as bite-dps, not bleeders in my experience

[wild cove]

Spam biters

[tacit oriole]

Bite the head, don't get bit

Which was also the carno SOP

Bleed it out if you really need to

[thin mantle]

That's a universal strategy, heads have multipliers there's no reason not to aim for them

[tacit oriole]

Now though you actually need to play the meta, utahs can't dps things down anymore, you have to bleed them

[wild cove]

I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing though, just needs better polish

[tacit oriole]

Not complaining, just noting

[wild cove]

Ya, fair

[thin mantle]

You are obligated into a playstyle that prevents any form of self defense. I don't think that's really a good thing. They're damage is irrelevant

No amount of pack size will help you defend against carnos

[tacit oriole]

Can you elaborate what you mean by no defence?

[wild cove]

I wouldn't say "prevents any form of self-defense". You're supposed to have a pack to back you up. Although I do agree Utah needs better turn intertia to juke since it can't outpace Carno

[thin mantle]

If carnos attack you, you cannot counter attack them like you could previously. Damage cannot be applioed to pressure the carnos into a retreat and the bleed damage takes time to become a threat to carnos.

[tacit oriole]

Ah, yeah carno run speed gives it a huge amount of authority over engagements

[thin mantle]

Well the pack doesn't matter, alt bite is op on carnos and the pounces are hard countered by carnos speed and damage

If they can't take raw damage they can't be pressured away from the pack, and with their speed utahs are always forced into a retreat. This doesn't work because utahs can't out run or out turn

[tacit oriole]

With the current bleed multipliers though sprinting while bleeding from a Utah is pretty dangerous

[thin mantle]

And honestly most of utahs issues would be solved if inertia was axed

[wild cove]

I do oagree on the turn inertia ya

[thin mantle]

Not really, the bleed pool is lower but the bleed damage is not that much higher tan 3.5

[wild cove]

Having a heavy-handed turn on Carno is fine, on Utah not so much

[thin mantle]

yeah it's the only thing utahs can do to run away

Turning, a carnos only shortcoming compared to utah

Like literally it's only disadvantage xD

[tacit oriole]

There were some other changes too I believe. So you bleed faster and regen blood slower while moving

[thin mantle]

But a carno can end an engagement in a matter of 30 seconds or less, attrition really doesn't play a part

[wild cove]

I think one of my long-time-ago suggestions of having dinos get a speed boost when fleeing but not chasing, like an adrenaline boost, might help but that would require coding and possibly a performance hit to the game. I doubt the Devs will implement it.

[tacit oriole]

The net effect is (assuming full food and water) sitting to standing is about double, standing to sprinting is double again

[thin mantle]

Yeah that is easy to cheese and impossible to code, you can't sense "intent"

[tacit oriole]

1 full pounce to a carno puts it on about 20% blood if it stays sprinting, less if it's low on food or water

[thin mantle]

Oh no that is unfortunately not true at all

[wild cove]

I wouldn't say impossible to code, but it would require a lot of back-end calculation on the system

Which would slow down overall stability I assume

[thin mantle]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

Yeah I should have said needlessly tedious and ultimately an easily abusable system

[tacit oriole]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/854251691830149123/875586939129069648/unknown.png

That is remaining blood for a carno, full pounce, full sprint

[thin mantle]

How long since the pounce?

[wild cove]

If you had something like "X species running directly behind Y player at A distance for Z amount of seconds, increase speed until B distance", then it could be possible. The problem is more the performance hit from the game having to calculate that constantly and reliably

[tacit oriole]

It's 1:20 for bleed to start healing

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's kinda what I thought, that is easily enough time to kill 3-4 raptors

Even 45 seconds is enough

[tacit oriole]

And blood still regens while bleeding, and regen is affected by food and water, so if you are starving you will take more

[thin mantle]

Ofcourse

[fathom obsidian]

update 3 carno sprinting was dead after a full pounce

also i updated my doc

[thin mantle]

Ahh there they are!

[tacit oriole]

Also worth noting that blood affects stamina recharge

[fathom obsidian]

with new values

[thin mantle]

Ooh can you send the new one?

[fathom obsidian]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

[tacit oriole]

Oh btw sorry I didn't get around to getting exact numbers for you SOAD, got distracted playing survival. I'll do that today

[fathom obsidian]

its not easy also

ui dosent really match is what i was told

[tacit oriole]

If you set blood using admin commands it tells you what it was in the log

Same as HP for Heal

[fathom obsidian]

neat

so i change it to save the original value in the logs?

[tacit oriole]

I have the HP and blood regen numbers for teno/carno/Utah already, and most of the stamina data

Haven't really worked out exactly how the blood pool works yet though, I hoped it might be hard linked to weight like HP is but it doesn't seem to be the case

I might just have to use a standardised bleed damage and make up something

[fathom obsidian]

whats the log file name?

i see many on my server

[tacit oriole]

Should be theisle/saved/logs or something, not at my PC atm

You need the -log flag when starting the server too

[fathom obsidian]

gotcha

[tacit oriole]

You can also pipe the output from the server itself if you want to stream it to a console somewhere

Since the logs themselves are read-locked when the server is running

But yeah that's how I've been getting all my damage numbers. Smack a player, heal them, inspect logs

[dusky surge]

lmao, even utah's bleed was nerfed, holy shit

[fathom obsidian]

yeah, they took everything lol

[sinful cove]

the decision to make a small game ambusher not even get full of its own full body weight in food is bizarre af

[swift sapphire]

yea they messed it all up, just gotta wait to see how long it takes em to realize it

[dawn falcon]

So make the apex herbivore lose what makes it an apex herbivore

Okay

There’s literally no point in decreasing stegos health when a carno can’t even attack it without dying

[sinful cove]

carnos shouldnt even be bothering with stegos, as long as utah packs can still take one on i dont see a problem with it being basically off limits to carnos

not every carni needs to be killing every other dino that's stupid and boring

niches exist for a reason

[dawn falcon]

^

Oh

This guys actually pesky

Didn’t know that

No wonder

[sinful cove]

oh shit lol

[alpine plover]

Wow smh

Don’t be mean

[sinful cove]

he wanted tenontos nerfed now he is on to stego lol

[dawn falcon]

[sinful cove]

ohh that silly pesky

[dawn falcon]

Oh that pesky pesky..

[alpine plover]

He’s the imposter

[versed rune]

Can we at least agree that it’s excessive for carno to do that little damage to a stego with a clean headshot

Plus between stego’s buffed turn radius and carno’s reduced hp, stego should really have no problem defending against it, since stego can clean one shot carno now if it lands a headshot.

[vagrant mural]

should have no problem defending itself
needs to be made more susceptible

[versed rune]

7-8 headshots is too few to kill a stego (that’s what it was last patch) but 15-16 is insane. 10-12 headshots from a carno to kill a stego sounds like a fair number. If a stego can’t down a carno or scare it off in the time it takes for it to land that many headshots then I really don’t know what to tell you.

[true ginkgo]

Not sure why a barely mid tier dedicated small game hunter should be able to kill one of the most powerful herbis in the entire long term planned roster.

This is why stego flat out shouldn’t be playable until allo/alberto arrive. If not acro. There is nothing in the game currently which ‘should’ be hunting a full grown stego. Except maybe deinos while it’s drinking.

[versed rune]

I hope you realize im specifying “headshots”

there is no argument being made that carno should be specializing in hunting a stego. 10-12 headshots is a lot in terms of the isle. You have to factor in how long it takes to find the right moment to attack, factor in any missed bites, all while the stego that has the potential to one shot you is swinging

Again, if a stegosaurus allows a carno to land that many bites on its designated weak spot then the carno deserves the kill

[true ginkgo]

Pretty sure stego is only killing in one hit with a headshot on carno currently.

[dawn falcon]

I don’t see a point in nerfing stegos health when Carno can’t really do shit to one

Like

[true ginkgo]

Sure maybe headshot multipliers should go up so headshots do more. But this will effect others tiers of combat horribly

[dawn falcon]

It seems to be a useless nerf tbh

I’d say a 2.2x head multiplier would be a bit better

But

Yeah

No health nerfs

[versed rune]

I don’t know if a stego health nerf is necessarily the fix

I made a suggestion about a stego health nerf not long ago

[true ginkgo]

I hate it, but maybe we should get Sophie scale stego until allo/alberto come. Then after that move stego to its adult size.

[versed rune]

But I’ve begun thinking about it more

I like the idea of health and weight corresponding

Mainly because we actually know what our damn stats are

[dawn falcon]

What was it

16 headshots to take out a stego?

[versed rune]

Yeah

It’s insane lol

[vagrant mural]

Do not

[true ginkgo]

Sophie stego is like 1600kg I think. Which fits the current roster. Then later on switch it to adult stego weight and size.

[dawn falcon]

If the head multiplier was 2.2x, then that means it goes from 16 to 13

Headshots

But

That also means deinos damage to the head is increased by .2

[true ginkgo]

And then carnos are one shotting utahs if multiplier goes up

[versed rune]

That’s where the fix comes in

The multipliers aren’t universal

Spitballing numbers here

For the sake of simplicity

STEGO would take 3x damage from headshots

[sinful cove]

If stego got reduced to basically kentro size then deino should get turned into a nile croc lmao

[versed rune]

Whereas UTAH would take 1.5x damage from headshots

[dawn falcon]

Ohhh that actually would not be good at all

That would mean

Deinos can deal 1500 damage to the head

[true ginkgo]

That feels super arbitrary.

[dawn falcon]

Even though Deino is supposed to struggle on land

[versed rune]

I just said I’m spitballing numbers for the sake of simplicity?????

[dawn falcon]

I’m just saying

[versed rune]

I didn’t mean stego’s headshot multiplier should literally be 3x lol

[true ginkgo]

Given my way stego would be simply removed from the roster until allo was here.

[fresh laurel]

man

[dawn falcon]

Someone wanted stego to be hunted by Carno so idk anymore

[fresh laurel]

i find it funny how much people want utah buff

[sinful cove]

Stego and deino were indeed added too soon its a weird ass decision to slap them in so soon

[fresh laurel]

which i agree with

[sinful cove]

Shoulda been kentro and beipi

[dawn falcon]

I want a Utah buff that’s not stupid

[fresh laurel]

but wow alot of ppl want utah to get buff

[dawn falcon]

No health buff

At all

But

Inertia nerf

[fresh laurel]

what type of buff do yall want cus you dont really say it you just say utah is bad

[dawn falcon]

And maybe a biteforce buff to 75-85N

I’d rather choose 75 tbh

[alpine plover]

Utah needs some sort of agility increase

It feels very sluggish atm

[fresh laurel]

i would like a buff where 8 pack memebers is enough to take out the majority of the roster lel

[true ginkgo]

Stego and deino now have the stats they should have. And it demonstrates why they should have come later.

[fresh laurel]

of course if your smart

[dawn falcon]

I’m fine with Utah being the only creature to take out a stego

And Deino

[fresh laurel]

i never seen utah take deino

[dawn falcon]

I didn’t mean it like that

My bad

[fresh laurel]

its fine

[dawn falcon]

I meant Deino taking out a stego

In pairs only

[fresh laurel]

oh

can deino threaten stego in water yet?

[dawn falcon]

It always has

On land not so much

[versed rune]

Deino gets bodied by steg currently

[dawn falcon]

Basically wherever a stego can swing, if you aren’t in pairs, give up

[versed rune]

Worse than before

[fresh laurel]

i seen stegos take swims for fun in deino waters lol

i think the old stats were more balanced but the special attack buffs can stay

[versed rune]

And take it from me I dislike deino much more than stego

But the poor thing can’t do anything to it

[dawn falcon]

If you can tank a couple hits while alt biting the stegos head as Deino, and then switch out with your other member and have him tank the hits, the stegos a goner

[fresh laurel]

ah yes deino once was evrimas selling point now its stegos bitch

[dawn falcon]

Basically try to make your bite equal to the amount of times you got hit to a maximum of 3 and get the hell out of there, and have your other member do the same.

[versed rune]

Also. Can we talk about how garbage it is that carno and teno both clean one shot utah with their special attacks???

Like it’s satisfying to do but.... at what cost???

[dawn falcon]

Filipe said that he might reduce the carno charge damage so that doesn’t happen

[fresh laurel]

utah is a glass canon without the canon

[vagrant mural]

Ngl I didn’t expect Utah to have lore but

[versed rune]

Reducing carno’s charge damage wouldnt solve the issue

[dawn falcon]

Can’t remember if he said anything bout the tail slam

[dawn falcon]

It would though

[versed rune]

That would require a teno tail slam nerf too??

[dawn falcon]

It’s not a one shot anymore and gives the CC a use

[fresh laurel]

i dont think tail slam should one shot at least not at the body

[versed rune]

I think the best idea is to give utah more health

[dawn falcon]

No

No

[versed rune]

But we can’t DO that now

[dawn falcon]

No

[fresh laurel]

wait

[dawn falcon]

Giving Utah more health means increasing the weight

[fresh laurel]

cant we wait for pachy to see how utahs handles that guy

[fresh laurel]

they can always try to revert the weight means hp and give us a proper health bar

[dawn falcon]

The only way to increase its health to a more meaning full value would be atleast 600, and that means it can pin an almost sub teno and Carno

[versed rune]

And this is why it makes no sense to have health correspond with weight, as much as it’s nice to know our health

Because it backs you into a balancing corner like this

[dawn falcon]

Which it’ll take time to balance it this way

[vagrant mural]

Given it out damages it, does fracture, and can’t be pinned I doubt pachy will be necessarily easy to kill for a utah

[dawn falcon]

Oh shit you’re right

It’s a latch instead of a pin since Utah weighs less than the confirmed Pachy weight

[fresh laurel]

i just remembered that utah will be trying to play with clay when fractures come

[versed rune]

Utah with 1,000 hp functioned fine last patch

[vagrant mural]

Also, making a hunter more attritional, and then nerfing it’s stam just kind of boggles me

[versed rune]

Sure it SOUNDED like a lot

[fresh laurel]

utah with 1k health still got 2 shot to the head from carno

[dawn falcon]

My friend

[versed rune]

But it didn’t matter because it still got 3 shot by carno, and teno and deino could destroy it easily

[dawn falcon]

You do realize

It’s the same thing now

[versed rune]

Exactly

Yes I do

That’s my point

[dawn falcon]

Utah with 1000 hp could still be a 2-3 shot. Utah is still a 2-3 shot.

[vagrant mural]

It got 12 shot to the head by old Dryo or something like that 💪

[versed rune]

My point is that the change to make weight and health the same makes zero sense and over complicated everything

[alpine plover]

no, not old dryo

old dryo was terrifying

[fresh laurel]

except it can barley survive the baby stage lol

[versed rune]

Because now it creates a balancing dead end

[dawn falcon]

It’s a baby though

[fresh laurel]

i meant

[alpine plover]

Balance feedback discussion

[vagrant mural]

Ptera and Dryo hada solid chunk of fun removed with the damage nerfs imo

[fresh laurel]

to say the younger stage

[dawn falcon]

So like

Juvy and sub?

[fresh laurel]

yea

[versed rune]

The damage nerfs in general were just terrible

[fresh laurel]

its even harder now

[dawn falcon]

And yeah, that’s where inertia needs to be fixed.

[alpine plover]

The damage nerfs made juvies worse than they already were

[vagrant mural]

Like I took on a fresh spawn carno as a 80% Dryo and it took ages to kill it, and it now takes 6 headshots from a Ptera to kill a juvi deino

[fresh laurel]

utah pounce nerf needs to go or bring back a normal bite damage for it

[versed rune]

The game is all over the place right now and the player count shows that people aren’t happy

[vagrant mural]

I tried killing a full adult Ptera as a juvi Utah today

[dawn falcon]

Utah pounce was actually buffed yeah

[fresh laurel]

because now utah seems it like its strictly for sticky or brackabone

[vagrant mural]

I did like nothing to it apparently

[dawn falcon]

It can take down a stego now

[vagrant mural]

Everything bar the bleed was nerfed

[fresh laurel]

wasnt at least bleed was buffed

[dawn falcon]

Bleed was yes

But not much of the Utah pounce was nerfed

Infact

It’s the buck that’s unbalanced

[fresh laurel]

how so

[dawn falcon]

Bucking makes you pounce for only like 5 seconds

[versed rune]

The best bet to fix this patch would be to revert all of the damage values back to what they were, revert any health NERFS that dinosaurs got, keep the health BUFFS that any dinosaurs got, and keep the special ability buffs as well.

[fresh laurel]

buck glitches alot lol

[vagrant mural]

And given stego wasn’t always guaranteed a dismount stab tbh it could take on stegos

[fresh laurel]

and change the weight = hp

[dawn falcon]

I’d rather give this a few more balance changes before truly getting that conclusion

[versed rune]

Yea

[alpine plover]

This balance update is just all over the place.

can’t keep up with it

[dawn falcon]

Remember they’re stress testing. Try to give as much feedback as possible so they can find a workaround

[vagrant mural]

They got some things right, some things wrong, expected tbh

[versed rune]

We literally just need to hit the “fuck go back” button.

[dawn falcon]

^^

[fresh laurel]

i kinda wish the devs showed us the balance changes and let us vote on it or at least let us test it....

[alpine plover]

it’s not really clarifying what it’s trying to do. it’s just a giant mess.

[versed rune]

You expect too much

[fresh laurel]

i can hope

[alpine plover]

polls would be cool

[vagrant mural]

Also I completely do not understand the intent on making juvies weaker

[alpine plover]

but QA is for that I guess

[versed rune]

that would require something called listening to the community that actually plays the game, so it can’t be done unfortunately

[fresh laurel]

a niche change could help

[dawn falcon]

But no reverting. I’d rather give this a couple more patches to really give a solid conclusion

Wait till performance is actually fixed

[vagrant mural]

No one asked for it, no one wanted it, no one had a problem with juvis beyond utahs being used to spam bleed, but even that was more just an annoyance by a few assholes

[dawn falcon]

And then we can try and fix everything

[versed rune]

Oh yeah. Performance is an issue too. My poor framerate.

[alpine plover]

Oh I completely forgot! Literally nobody asked for this change, so they decide to do it anyways because isle devs! Thank you. I remember that this is the isle

[dawn falcon]

Can’t believe looking at north is a big “fuck you”

[fresh laurel]

baby utah then still died pretty fast

[vagrant mural]

Exactly

If anything juvis needed buffs

But Na

[dawn falcon]

[alpine plover]

did anyone even ask for these changes

[fresh laurel]

i think juvies needed less footprints since they were so easy to track...

[dawn falcon]

I mean it is their game. They want the game to be how they’ve always planned it out.

But they can always change it later

[versed rune]

What’s the matter??? You don’t think 2 damage is sufficient?? You clearly are just trying to hate on the devs..... 🙄

[fresh laurel]

no one would be that ||dumb|| to ask for this

[dawn falcon]

Like update 4 ISNT even here

[vagrant mural]

I bit a Ptera 4 times and pounced it and it managed to walk away and then 1 shot me

[dawn falcon]

Get those balance changes out before it does

Cause then it’s hotfix season

[fresh laurel]

lol didnt one of the devs say we wouldnt get a patch update before update 4 and here we are :/

[dawn falcon]

Well

[alpine plover]

Juvies need certain niches so they aren’t just smaller weaker adults with no life put into them

[dawn falcon]

Atleast it solved rubberbanding

[fresh laurel]

i mean

[dawn falcon]

And hopefully performance is going to finally be fixed

[fresh laurel]

i wouldnt mind waiting until update 4 for that fix

[dawn falcon]

Well they also have to stress test the diets

[vagrant mural]

Not all of them even need niches, just certain advantages over adults to make them interesting and viable

[versed rune]

This game’s development really is just out of the frying pan straight into the fucking sun.

[dawn falcon]

Imagine rubberbanding too

[dusky surge]

i found the simple joys in playing hypsi somehow

[fresh laurel]

they have qa...

[dusky surge]

you cant stress test efficiently with just QA

[alpine plover]

[dawn falcon]

Just because it works for QA doesn’t mean it works for the community

[dusky surge]

you need full servers

[dawn falcon]

^

[fresh laurel]

let baby utah climb and let baby carno just idk be fast and bby herbies could have better stam

[alpine plover]

Baby carno having better stam regen possibly

[fresh laurel]

i hope one day devs will start doing polls before doing big stat changes like this

[alpine plover]

they won’t

probably

[fresh laurel]

they should

like

they really should

[dawn falcon]

Well they listened to announcing server wiped

[versed rune]

QA has proven to be mediocre at best. deino’s alt bite proved to go right over their heads, and we players had to deal with it since April

Among other things as well

[dawn falcon]

How did Deinos alt bite go over their heads

[versed rune]

Don’t get me wrong I’m glad we have QA

[dawn falcon]

Stamina drain?

Ohhh I get it now

[versed rune]

The fact that it made the thing invincible

[dusky surge]

imo, carno is just the worst. I never had half the issues with utah that I had with carn, yet utah is the one beaten to death with a rusty metal rod this patch

[versed rune]

Shows that they didn’t effectively test it

[fresh laurel]

lol qa didnt think about stego being strong enough to just sit near water with their tails pointing at it

[vagrant mural]

Baby Utah should climb better, juvi carno already performs better in forests and shit, Ptera can have a similar thing to carno, deino can eat fish and be faster on land, Dryo can be better at invading more burrows when younger, hypsi can have more volatile vomit at an increased cost, teno and stego I have genuinely no idea tho

[dawn falcon]

I don’t think it’s QAs fault. The devs just didn’t implement it

[versed rune]

Oh it’s definitely not their fault entirely

No one is 100% to blame

[dawn falcon]

It was even mentioned it should have stamina drain since update 3s test

[versed rune]

Well I guess that’s debatable

But you get the idea

[dawn falcon]

Aye

[alpine plover]

I will blame isle devs

[fresh laurel]

i think herbivores dont have the same problem carnies have at younger stages because herds are strong enough to protect you even when afk lol

[alpine plover]

because isle

[dawn falcon]

But

[alpine plover]

no buts

[vagrant mural]

They shouldn’t rely on herds to be protected and should be as engaging at younger ages as carnis imo

[dawn falcon]

Stfu and let me speak

[alpine plover]

I will complain on Reddit if you continue this conversation any further

[vagrant mural]

It just really sucks thinking of stuff

[versed rune]

I don’t know why this game is so hard for people to balance

[fresh laurel]

i agree i just mean they dont really need big changes that baby carnies need since baby carnies start alone alot and can stay alone

[versed rune]

It’s really not difficult

And they were on the right track last patch

And they soiled it

[alpine plover]

Just don’t make dinosaurs weak lmfa

[versed rune]

We were so close

[fresh laurel]

guys

[vagrant mural]

Given how they handled carno and deino I am incredibly terrified of the what, 3rd allopocalypse?

[fresh laurel]

listen

[dawn falcon]

Before we jump to conclusions and go “fuck all” with the reverts, give it a couple balance changes, maybe even update 4s stress test, and then see if it really needs some reverts or not

[fresh laurel]

i got something to say here

[alpine plover]

stop typing

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/go-on-im-listening-it-crowd-popcorn-eat-gif-16641221

[fresh laurel]

something that will make yall grateful

[alpine plover]

say it

or else I’m banning you from

[versed rune]

Carno was a terrible dinosaur to put in without a second carnivore to be its rival

[fresh laurel]

be happy this isnt beast of bermuda balancing

where birds clap everything

[vagrant mural]

I’ll give it till update 4

[dawn falcon]

Which is why Cerato should be put in soon

[alpine plover]

Cough ceratosaurus cough

[fresh laurel]

and anything big cripples

[versed rune]

Cera and carno should’ve been released together

[vagrant mural]

Carno being added update 2 still astounds me to this day

[alpine plover]

I’m surprised cera isn’t in yet

[dawn falcon]

Yeah it would’ve been a better pick than stego honestly

[versed rune]

But instead carno is the undisputed terrestrial apex and there’s no fun in that

[fresh laurel]

teno was a good rival but i guess teno cant be hunting carnos to keep population down a bit lol

[dusky surge]

cera needs to exist

[alpine plover]

Cera needs to exist and magy doesn’t

[versed rune]

teno isn’t really a rival to carno

[alpine plover]

[fresh laurel]

cerato rex

[versed rune]

Well, not an an “go away I hate you” sense

[vagrant mural]

Teno just kind of throws hands with anyone and everyone

[alpine plover]

Deinosuchus

[dawn falcon]

Teno and Carno are a 50/50 but they aren’t for competition.

Cerato is true competition

[versed rune]

I don’t even know how good teno is now

[fresh laurel]

be glad deno can drown carno though

[dawn falcon]

It’s kinda mixed

[vagrant mural]

2 kinda rivals in this game tbh

[dawn falcon]

Some say they destroy carnos, some say they don’t

[versed rune]

I’ve had zero issue destroying tenos this patch as carno

[fresh laurel]

but what makes me feel bad about deinos is you can drink at that shallow area

[alpine plover]

use charge and it’s dead

[versed rune]

Legit I haven’t got hit ONCE in any teno fights this patch as carno

It made me think teno was shit

But then I heard people say teno wrecked their shit as carno

So idfk

[alpine plover]

I haven’t came across a single teno yet as carno so I can’t tell

[dawn falcon]

All the tenos keep getting hunted off

Funnily enough

[fresh laurel]

hey guys a release utah stats vs carno

[alpine plover]

the servers seem so dead even with 90+ people on

[dawn falcon]

I saw a stego kill a teno

For whatever fuckin reason

[alpine plover]

because it can

it’s just cool like that

[dawn falcon]

Lol true

Stego was like “bitch you looked at me wrong” and boom. Thagomizer to the head

[vagrant mural]

Tenos now seem like they weee neutered

[fresh laurel]

what if stego got a bigger damage multiplier on the head since that head is so smol

[versed rune]

I think the speed nerf honestly fucked over teno more than anyone thought it would

[vagrant mural]

Like they’re not nearly as common, and they’re definitely more prone to running now

[dawn falcon]

Give it a 2.2x multiplier instead of a 2x

[versed rune]

Teno’s stam got the fix it needed which is nice

[fresh laurel]

i miss the old stats and the old acceleration from when evrima first came out

[versed rune]

But I’ve heard people say tenos stam is just plain BAD now

I don’t know for sure cuz I haven’t played it

[dawn falcon]

Wanna know why

They keep fucking running around

[alpine plover]

I’ve been playing teno recently and it just feels awful. Not the teno I knew.

[dawn falcon]

And fighting people

[vagrant mural]

Ngl I hate the fact I can barely use running at all for travel anymore

[alpine plover]

Teno can’t run without losing stamina in 2 seconds

[fresh laurel]

can someone show clip of new teno stam

[versed rune]

Utah feels terrible too

[fresh laurel]

utah

...

[alpine plover]

Utah feels sluggish

For an animal that’s 450kg

[vagrant mural]

Dryo in certain cases turns like a truck

[fresh laurel]

utah should be deleted with these stats lol

[vagrant mural]

Not even kidding

[dawn falcon]

But honestly, keep the weight = health changes, but edit some multipliers and damage output a bit.
Reduce Carno charge damage
Reduce teno slam damage
Buff agility for the smalls

Make stegos headshot a 2.2x

[versed rune]

When I said teno needed a stam nerf I meant it needed a very slight toning down, not a fucking butcher

[fresh laurel]

buff utahs hp or damage a tad

[dawn falcon]

Not up

Hp

[fresh laurel]

i said a tad

[dawn falcon]

For the love of god that would make matters worse

[fresh laurel]

shut

[dawn falcon]

Please no 500kg Utah

But

Give Utah 75n damage

Please

[vagrant mural]

I have no idea what even happened but now if you want to turn occasionally your Dryo will turn into a goddam cruise liner, the supposed king of agility

[fresh laurel]

its because hp = weight which should not be the case!!!!

[alpine plover]

500kg Utah would be able to pin pachy

We don’t want that

[dawn falcon]

If Utah gets 75n attack

That means Carno to the body is 24 hits, and 16 to the head

[alpine plover]

Wonder how a Utah is going to reach a carnos head

[vagrant mural]

That doesn’t sound awful

[dusky surge]

Utah should be squishy as hell but have decent damage, agility and bleed for its size

DECENT, not great

[fresh laurel]

j u m p

[alpine plover]

don’t do that in mid fight

Do it

die

[fresh laurel]

utah with these stats is gonna get bodied by dilo lel

[vagrant mural]

Actually with Utah not being able to pin above 450 kg

It can’t pin galli

[fresh laurel]

wait

you mean

[alpine plover]

galli is super scrawny too

[fresh laurel]

skinny legs wont get pinned

[alpine plover]

for a dinosaur

[fresh laurel]

seems dumb

[vagrant mural]

So the concept art was a lie

[dusky surge]

ahahahaha, time for me to ride galli as a utah

[alpine plover]

Scam galli

[versed rune]

How many body hits did it take for utah to kill carno last patch

wasnt it like 15

[alpine plover]

16

I think

around there

[versed rune]

That sounds fine to me to be honest

[alpine plover]

Carno is a big man so it makes sense

[versed rune]

Plus with the pounce

Utahs could down a carno

[vagrant mural]

16 body shots doesn’t sound too hard to achieve with a pack

[alpine plover]

Honestly trying to nip at a carno should be the last priority

[fresh laurel]

back then took 4 utahs to take a carno comfortably

[alpine plover]

Trying to bite a carno is super risky as Utah

[versed rune]

I don’t know why we’re making everything take a billion hits to kill larger animals

That’s the EXACT mistake that killed legacy

[fresh laurel]

true

[vagrant mural]

4 utahs vs 1 carno seems perfectly reasonable imo

[alpine plover]

let’s not make evrima legacy 2 please

[fresh laurel]

but legacy bleed could stack and do damage in the moment

[alpine plover]

Legacy bleed was probably the worst mechanic in existence

[versed rune]

The reason apexes are so op in legacy is because it takes things like carno/allo/cera literally 50-100+ hits to kill apexes

[fresh laurel]

lol i dont even know how bleed works in evrima all that well

[alpine plover]

it’s not complicated

It’s like legacy bleed but not horrible

[fresh laurel]

explain

i wanna use bleed in hunts

[alpine plover]

there’s a small blood icon that pops up whenever bleed is applied

[versed rune]

If your blood level drops to nothing, insta death. The lower your bleed, the slower you heal health and stamina

[alpine plover]

If your blood pool gets low, your screen will become dark and you will die

[fresh laurel]

hmmm

[alpine plover]

it can affect stamina regen and hp regen ofc

[fresh laurel]

how do you know if you did enough bites or something to bleed something out

[vagrant mural]

hurt thing with sharp object to apply bleed, more attacks increases bleed, bleed limits stamina regen, can be used for tracking, losing all your blood means you die

[alpine plover]

it’s pretty much legacy bleed but not horrible

[versed rune]

Legacy bleed

But epic

[alpine plover]

I actually really like the bleed system now

it makes sense

[fresh laurel]

i see

[vagrant mural]

you can use general information and how the target acts to determine bleed

[alpine plover]

and you don’t die immediately because something bit you

[versed rune]

Old bleed system made the game super campy

[alpine plover]

Legacy giga could just one shot trike practically

[versed rune]

It favored shithead players who like to win by pressing a button

[vagrant mural]

also it made giga the best thing in game

[alpine plover]

then again legacy trike is very inconsistent

[versed rune]

Flashback to the old realism stat mods that nerfed the fuck out of bleed

[alpine plover]

mods

come back

make game good

[vagrant mural]

^worst person on the planet now

[versed rune]

Still surreal that we recently got confirmation of the devs’ distain for mods

[alpine plover]

Sorry

[vagrant mural]

its just filipe to my knowledge

[versed rune]

Even so

It just kind of shows what we’re dealing with

A healthy game encourages the community to build on the game

[vagrant mural]

shit and piss didn't make that clear?

[alpine plover]

die

waste of money

[versed rune]

Jesus Christ

I actually hate that so much

[alpine plover]

we don’t need that

get out

now

[versed rune]

The devs themselves basically said it’s degenerate

[vagrant mural]

literally the worst decision the game has made

[versed rune]

Now we’re getting it?????

[alpine plover]

I guess

[vagrant mural]

you used to get banned

I WATCHED PEOPLE GET BANNED

[versed rune]

What kind of fucking Orwellian dystopia are we in

[alpine plover]

[vagrant mural]

blank

[dusky surge]

does more bites cause you to bleed faster in evrima?

[alpine plover]

well

yeah

[vagrant mural]

ye

[alpine plover]

One reason why utah pounce was deadly

Key word was

[versed rune]

I hate that the isle made this interaction possible

[alpine plover]

Alright I’m out of here

[vagrant mural]

the fact that people have crawled out of the walls to start defending it too is just no

[dusky surge]

basic combat distraction

[versed rune]

LMAO

[dusky surge]

as if you don't shit when in a brawl

your opponent won't know why the fuck you did it and you can run away

[versed rune]

It really shows you the degenerates and idiots we’re up against

[vagrant mural]

lmao the shits aggresively meme is now gonna be a reality

[dusky surge]

Personally I'm 50/50 on the shitting thing, wouldn't care if added or not

[alpine plover]

Remember when everyone hated shit and piss but when the devs said it was okay a swarm of people started defending it? Talk about sheep.

[versed rune]

If you’re gonna add a shitting mechanic you may as well add highly detailed cloacas to all the dinosaurs because the crowd that enjoys that is already here.

It’s fucking awful, dude.

[alpine plover]

the isle slowly turning into bob 2

[versed rune]

BoB isn’t even a game

[alpine plover]

roleplaying chat room

[versed rune]

I was gonna record the new update of bob but then I was like “the fuck am I thinking? This doesn’t deserve exposure”

[alpine plover]

New acro model just looks like a fat megalo

[dusky surge]

i just watch bob gameplay and am immediately put off by aesthetic

[versed rune]

No matter how bad the isle gets

[dusky surge]

god damn its ugly, the HUD makes me upset

[vagrant mural]

bob, which lacks direction due to constantly listening to the community, which got so bad they added a RESSURECTION SYETEM, hasn't stooped this low

[versed rune]

BoB will always be worse