balance-feedback-discussion

[crystal stream]

u have to let a deino lunge u in this state of the game

there are so many shallow areas

[golden coral]

That I would agree with. A grown deino fears only another grown deino.

[crystal stream]

if u drown to a deino ur fucking horrible imo 😂

[hollow canyon]

The largest dromaeosaurid of all time is still pretty small and Carno didn't have a weak bite at all.

[dawn falcon]

If a Deino doesn’t lunge a carno it’s horrible LOL

[wide cosmos]

Deino has to be siting far inland out of his element for it to be hunted by carnos, aka deino allows it. Try hunting deinos near a water source, you'll get drowned

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

I think deino will benefit from cannibalism? Not just be fine with it?

[hollow canyon]

I agree that Deino might be running out of stam a bit too easily atm

[golden coral]

So that other deinos is actually part of your diet, not just good for staying alive

[hollow canyon]

10% cost on alt bite seems a bit harsh

[crystal stream]

great! then u can just bait the lunge with the fastest dino in the game which actually costs more stam than alt bite

nice solution

[dawn falcon]

A good Deino knows the hitbox for lunge so

[crystal stream]

i do it all the time

[dawn falcon]

Good luck baiting a good Deino

[golden coral]

Really? that's still 10 bites, I'd agree if the deino could not regen stam on land but it can, right?

[crystal stream]

i shouldn't even be able to do this

it's so funny lol

[hollow canyon]

Stamina regen of Deino is probably the slowest in the game

It's definitely the slowest

[crystal stream]

I'd love to see deino get a buff

[hollow canyon]

10 bites isn't that many

[crystal stream]

make it a monster

[frosty heron]

No, it was busted before the patch

[dawn falcon]

^

[frosty heron]

It just needs stamina adjustment

[hollow canyon]

Then again - I have a different vision of how Deino should work than what we're going for I think

[frosty heron]

Either consumption or regen

[hollow canyon]

Yea it was definitely busted before the patch

[wide cosmos]

Also remember, carno has to land 40 body bites on deino to kill it, deino needs 4 to kill carno

[hollow canyon]

Probably more than 40 tbh

you will have regenerated some hp between the bites

[golden coral]

We all do. Me and Turok disagree severely on how stego should be handled and other large animals for that matter. So if you ask people here, you'll get a different answer from everyone!

[frosty heron]

It was ridiculously tanky and bleed it out wasn't an option, It had natural bleed resistance

[wide cosmos]

Deino hp 8000, carnondoes 200 damage per bite. Simple math

[crystal stream]

I think it'd be cool if deino would slightly get HP when swallowing food

[golden coral]

Can you bleed it out now?

[crystal stream]

not realistic at all just a cool idea

[frosty heron]

No clue. Some people said it's possible

[hollow canyon]

you're not taking into account the hp regen that takes place between those 40 bites - Deino will regenerate some health pushing it to at least 41(probably more)

[crystal stream]

deino needs 750 BF

at least

[frosty heron]

Before patch it was pretty much impossible to bleed out

[golden coral]

Alright. Maybe they changed it's resistances or something then.

[wide cosmos]

Yea there's alot more factors, it's just ballpark oversimplification

[hollow canyon]

The game generally doesn't work this way, you can't just divide the hp by the biteforce to get the idea of how many bites you need, it might give you an idea of how many bites you will need but things like the locational damage and health regeneration will skew the results

but yes, it will be a lot of bites

I agree there

[crystal stream]

evrima is a simple game

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/spit-take-laughing-lmao-gif-9271317

[golden coral]

I.. think they're trying for something different than that :p

[crystal stream]

u can explain the whole game to a new player in like 5 mins

dino get hungry dino eat

dino grow big dino find pack dino fight dino die

bro honestly I don't fw these new textures they look kinda dog shit

[gritty horizon]

maybe because that's all you do? haha

[gritty horizon]

No, not until after the roster makes the deino need 750 BF. atm the deino doesn't need it - due to the current roster

[lament cloak]

you could make every game sound simple like that

[wintry anchor]

can i just say i find it so funny that everyone was begging for a Utah nerf, and now that we got it everyone else hates it.

@oak wind TBH you can still kill Stegos as a Utah you just have to play it right

[primal folio]

You cannot ride deinos in this game?This ain’t legacy. Only someone who has never played a croc before is going to waste all of its stam and let carnos kill it. I’ve definitely seen it happen prior to this patch, but the deinos were always super inexperienced or seeking death lol just like a carno player has to be super inexperienced to allow a deino to lunge and drown them, as you said. On that note, I don’t understand this weird idea of ‘maining’ dinosaurs. It results in mediocre play styles.

[golden coral]

@shrewd stormNot really. Dryo is on the lower end, and similar sized juvies of course. Middle is around utah. Then on the upper end you have teno and carnos. Carno is the designated small game hunter, and utah is very much in that range, like dilo or maybe cerato, galli, and so on will be.

[fallow wagon]

Utah absolutely is a prey item for Carnotaurus

[frosty heron]

How tf is Carno bitteforce too much when it got nerfed to 200 from 350

[golden coral]

For a grown carno, a dryo is on the lower end. Is it a decent meal, yes and it should be. Just like a teno is on the upper end and is decent for more than one carno. But a range of 250-1250 in weight/"size" seems like a good range to me.

[true ginkgo]

Carno is meant to be a dedicated small game hunter. You know what counts as small game.... Utah.

I mean galli is probably going to be the textbook carno food, but that's also the same size as utah. Dryo is too small to give a carno anything more than a snack.

[golden coral]

For an animal that comes in on 1.8T(?) itself.

[shrewd storm]

well, maybe its utahs are too nerfed then lol, 2 shooting a utah, or 1 shooting it with an alt sounds broken to me thats all

[frosty heron]

That's because Utah its shit Lol

[fallow wagon]

it's p much been that way since the start tho

[frosty heron]

Got a nerf from 1000 hp to 450 which is less than half

[shrewd storm]

ye

[frosty heron]

Carno pretty much will be 2 shooting Utahs now as most of the time they will have locked damage, a tiny bit is enought to get 2 shooted

[true ginkgo]

Getting pretty conflicting accounts of how much damage a utah is doing with pounce atm. One person tested it on a 450kg carno and it failed to kill it. Another had 1/3 of their adult stego health removed via pounce + the bleed.

I definitely don't think carno should be one shotting utahs.

[fallow wagon]

wym + bleed, bleed doesnt take away from hp

[true ginkgo]

Ah yeah forgot it doesn't

must have been via pure damage

[shrewd storm]

the alt attack insta kill is dumb tho even if 2 shooting a utah makes sense

[frosty heron]

For me 2 shooting and Utah on body hits doesn't make sense but that's on peoples opinion

Utah now it's as fragile as prepatch Dryo

[true ginkgo]

I definitely think utah should kill an equal sized animal with one pounce if it doesn't buck.

From full stam.

[wintry anchor]

does it not you just have to wait a bit for it to bleed

[shrewd storm]

so maybe the carno isnt the problem its just the utah was made into a piece of aluminum foil

[thin mantle]

Somehow dryo takes like half your stam to kill now 😦

[frosty heron]

It does kill another Utah on full pounce, it leaves it with 12% hp which is a bite off to die

[thin mantle]

Precisely! 😄

[frosty heron]

But just that

[true ginkgo]

I'm very happy with the new healths. Damage, stams, and speeds might still need tweaking.

[golden coral]

With damage or bleed?

[frosty heron]

For me that's the issue

[thin mantle]

Yeah, Utah either needs to be a sentient scalpel with absurd bleed damage or it needs a minor damage buff

[teal pecan]

@shrewd storm utah is literally small tier, how is carno not supposed to hunt it?

[true ginkgo]

Both. Lots of damage, then follow till its blood drops.

Track it for a bit, if it tries to wallow rush it.

[wintry anchor]

tbh i think utahs in a pretty good spot rn (hate me utah mains )

[shrewd storm]

I mean a single utah sure, but a single carno shouldnt be shredding a pack of like 6 utahs

[thin mantle]

Utah was the very top end of low tier and it's specifically designed to combat dinos larger than itself

[teal pecan]

in packs

[true ginkgo]

A fight vs a galli should go: ambush, pounce, inflict pain, leap off before your stam is out, follow galli till it either drops of blood loss or you finish it.

[frosty heron]

[wintry anchor]

I think thats just due to having to adjust to the new fighting style

[frosty heron]

Pretty good spot if you mean under a pile of shit, yes

[true ginkgo]

I generally think of the top of small tier being about 1000kg.

[teal pecan]

well I can't say too much on that, I haven't played this update, just wanted to say that carno is supposed to hunt utahs (up to like 2 or 3 should be probably max idk)

[shrewd storm]

Utahs lost like almost 60% of their health, thats a horrendous debuff

[wintry anchor]

so...

[gusty mason]

and their dmg too lol

[shrewd storm]

so, they need either more damage output or a health buff.

[frosty heron]

Dmg is literally Ptera peeks

[wintry anchor]

but all damage is lowered

[teal pecan]

well it shouldn't have had 1k health from the beginning

[shrewd storm]

never said it shoulda lol, but they took too much off is what im getting at

[teal pecan]

I don't think so but ok

[wintry anchor]

just cause nobody uses its bleed enough isn't the utahs problem

[true ginkgo]

Could tell the healths were messed up before the patch when a 500kg stego had 1/3 the health of a 500kg utah. Despite being the same on grow time.

And it had less health than a 120kg dryo too.

[gusty mason]

all dmg lowered doesnt mean its balances out lol utah does way to less dmg rn

[wintry anchor]

but it dosn't need raw damage when its "Damage" is bleeding out dinos

[frosty heron]

Good luck using bleed on Stegos and Crocs tho

[alpine plover]

Did some testing
And I can confirm
Utah is near worthless

[frosty heron]

They don't even feel it

[golden coral]

Doesn't it already do that right now?

[shrewd storm]

Ik they increased the bleed damage from pounce in the last patch which I like, but its still made of aluminum. Its horribly weak to attacks. All the utah needs right now is a little more health (probably like 600ish) and it'd be fine.

[wintry anchor]

crocs i can see a prob but you arn't really supposed to fight them as an utahs

[true ginkgo]

I mean galli isn't in game. So utah doesn't do that to it currently.

[frosty heron]

Some people say Stegos predator in the roster are Utah packs, I can confirm that's not the case anymore, I don't care about Crocs they always have been unkillable since launch

[golden coral]

Utah is a bleeder now, and a pouncer. Bite is not the main attack. Change attack style, and see how that goes.

[frosty heron]

I just let them kill themselves from cannibalism

[wintry anchor]

and you can bleed stegos as utah packs

it just takes longer

[golden coral]

... Well to dryo/utah/smaller tenos/carnos and stegos I guess then? :p

[shrewd storm]

Ive killed full stegos with 8 utahs in this patch, like I said thats not the problem, its just the utahs health makes it bad at taking any damage at all

[frosty heron]

Yeah it might take 30+ minutes and a lot of pounce attempts to the point most your pack is dead

[true ginkgo]

Utah mains love soloing things. But the issue is all the animals which are fun and similar power to solo are not in game yet.

So it's left either feeding on the dregs like hispy and dryo, or needing a group to hunt.

The stats are fine, the ecosystem is not.

[wintry anchor]

not if you play it right

[frosty heron]

You can play it perfectly you still need that amount of time

[thin mantle]

Yes this is very true, honestly the nerf should have come later

[frosty heron]

Just do some testing with bucking and you will see it

[shrewd storm]

a n d currently food drain is way too fast rn too

[thin mantle]

And corpses give less food on top of that

[primal dove]

actually no, I also loved 1v1 things in Legacy but now playing in a pack is way more fun,sadly u cant kill things anymore

[winged sierra]

what lol it does not take over half an hour to kill a stego as a utah pack

[frosty heron]

Also soon I'm gonna post a feedback where I can show why Stegos are pretty much unkillable now

[thin mantle]

Compound this on top of the fact that Utahs can only hunt two uncommon targets alone

[true ginkgo]

Update 2 should have been hispy and carno. Then push kentro asap.

Save stego to go along with acro.

[wintry anchor]

well it may take a while but a stego is much stronger then a utahs so it should take a while

[shrewd storm]

do kinda wish we got kentro instead of stego atm

[thin mantle]

That would have been fantastic, but maybe add stego and allo instead, acro seems like a bit much still

[shrewd storm]

^

[true ginkgo]

Though kentro might be uncomfortable to pounce.

[alpine plover]

It's not a matter of playing right, it's a matter of stats, circumstances, and detrimental implementations that give far more trouble than what it's worth now
No other playable has so many conditions and zero room for error just for it to respectively fill it's niche

[frosty heron]

Shouldn't take nothing close to 30 mins with a full pack

[thin mantle]

That is kinda the point

[primal dove]

30 minutes?! In that time a whole herd has merged around ur "victim"

[stark knoll]

takes at most 15 in my experience

[shrewd storm]

^^^^^^

[wintry mountain]

dont target a herd then

[primal dove]

read my message right

[winged sierra]

yeah nothing more than 20, from personal experience. And that was before the bleed buff

[frosty heron]

Tested with proper bucking and not running around to speed up the bleed?

[true ginkgo]

Stego is definitely more in lane with acro for combat imo. It's a bit heavier than acro, and fills a similar 'small' large tier role.

Allo is middle of mid tier, and shouldn't be soloing a stego.

[stark knoll]

yup

[thin mantle]

Yeah it doesn't take an insane amount of time, it just requires a ton of utahs, which can be difficult to come by now that they're available options for food has shrunk

[frosty heron]

I still have my doubts

[stark knoll]

8 utahs, good stego, used bucking, standing nearly still

takes practice and skill, and time to get used to the new movement

especially since stego turns faster

[frosty heron]

8 Utahs wow that's full pack anyways

[shrewd storm]

still think utah has too little health

[thin mantle]

Oh ofcourse, I'm only pointing out how allos are intended to combat stego already which is why it would make sense for them to be together, although adding acro to the list of Ptera, Utah, and Carno seems like (again) a bit of a massive gap

[fathom obsidian]

i think the health is fine, its the pounce bleed that its still lower than 3.5

[thin mantle]

I'm not denying that it could work tho

[stark knoll]

yea, you said full pack

[winged sierra]

correct, 6-8 utahs is about how many you should have if you want to take on stego

[shrewd storm]

If it was like 550-600 I wouldnt say a word lol

and I think current bleed is fine if the health goes up a tiny bit

[stark knoll]

we lost quite a few utahs but we also ran in gung-ho like idiots

[frosty heron]

Which is the most rare scenario on the game

[wide cosmos]

I'm all for nerfing the damage and making Utah rely mostly on bleed to take down the prey, but the massive HP nerf on top of speed nerf made it near useless in attrition fights. How do you keep the prey bleeding of you die in 1-2 hits and are to slow to doge attacks.

[true ginkgo]

Yeah allos are the 'classic' antagonist for stego, and theme wise suit coming at the same time.

[winged sierra]

perhaps that's for the best, since stego shouldn't be regular utah prey?

[frosty heron]

8 coordinated Utahs? Nah your Stego is fine that ain't gonna happen

[fathom obsidian]

well the bleed is like half it was before, even after the latest tweak

[wintry anchor]

it prob will get better when diets comes out

[shrewd storm]

I like it lmao. It encourages u to need more utahs and not solo anymore.

Just

[stark knoll]

utah feels like its made for big and slow things. stego is big and slow, but also has a high-range, high-damage attack

[shrewd storm]

health

[frosty heron]

Oh sure let's have a playable in the game that nothing can hunt it

Pretty balanced

[thin mantle]

You also can't apply that much pressure to keep a target moving when you deal no physical damage to keep the target from moving.

[stark knoll]

pretty much no other dino has range like stego and possibly anky

[fathom obsidian]

hope it can solo a pachy or be even

[wintry anchor]

i agree that stego should not have been added yet...

[stark knoll]

well we just explained that good utah packs can kill them

[thin mantle]

No actually stego should be huntable by utahs, where did the myth that stego shouldn't be hunted by raptors come from?

[winged sierra]

lol two of the four carnivores are able to hunt it. I said not hunt it regularly. Don't have 8 utahs? Don't hunt a stego

[fathom obsidian]

if not gonna be frustrating, utah is not in a good spot right now

[stark knoll]

but yea stego is......... weird in this roster

[winged sierra]

i do agree the ecosystem is odd in terms of predator-prey relationships, but the stats are not the issue

[wide cosmos]

Steggos are fine Noone is forced to fight it and it's too slow to chase anyone

[shrewd storm]

Not enough herbis to hunt smaller things tho.

[frosty heron]

Don't even count Carno in this please, everyone knows that's a waste of 2 hours

[thin mantle]

It doesn't have a proper counter, it's very comfy as an adult since the conditions for it's death are so rare

[stark knoll]

yea its a roster problem imo, not a stats issue

[golden coral]

That could be my fault since I've argued it should take about that long. Not said it will or does, just that I personally am in favour of longer times. But then I also have all of progression as expeience and reference points. Sorry!

[frosty heron]

Most likely the scenario you never gonna meet on a server

[shrewd storm]

idk who said it but kentro would have been better for this roster instead of stego

[wintry anchor]

eh i think people just need to get used to the new utah anyways i gotta head out see yall later

[stark knoll]

many people have, but kentro wasnt nearly ready

[true ginkgo]

Hyped for pachy as utahs will see something their own size.

[stark knoll]

stego was ready since it was meant to be ai but was just made playable for the update

[fathom obsidian]

new utah playstyle is worse, just pounce, no reward at all for biting takes less skill in a sense

[wide cosmos]

Also steggo is about the only thing that can pose a threat to a land deinos

[frosty heron]

If Utah stays like this it gonna get smacked hard by Pachy

[shrewd storm]

ngl I think if un U5 they stuck cera and Kentro in and took Stego out as a playable that'd be good

even if it took months to implement

[thin mantle]

Frump did, and they're right

[true ginkgo]

Pachy isn't going to have like 1k health.

It's going to have like 450 HP.

[winged sierra]

no worries, wasn't referring to you specifically

[thin mantle]

Honestly at this point I don't care, the roster just needs more interaction with it's members. Do it

[frosty heron]

550 hp, and that's not the problem, Pachy murders Utah in 2 headbutts

[alpine plover]

Utah is in a very bad spot, it's now bad at nearly all of it's matchups
The Utahs before had to play semi sweaty to be competent at surviving, now they must have near perfect gameplay as a pack hunter that supposedly hunts larger prey yet struggles against mid tiers horribly
Teno is a hard counter to it
Stego needs a horde to bring it down
Carno has it on easy mode within engagements
Prior to this update, everything felt alright with just slight overtunes/undertunes, and the Stego/Hypsi design flaws

[shrewd storm]

give utah same health and we

words

[thin mantle]

This seems like a pretty accurate assessment to me

[true ginkgo]

Wait noticed that it's gone to 500kg (500HP). It used to be 450kg on the size chart.

And yeah the headbutt is lethal, but a pounce will hurt a lot to an animal of that size.

Avoid the headbutt, pounce it, dip before your stam runs dry, and then kite it to drain its blood.

[shrewd storm]

pachy and utah should be direct competition, since I imagine Pachys will be in small groups

like rivals for lack of a better term

[winged sierra]

2-3 competent utahs can reliably kill a sole teno, not sure what you mean by "hard counter". Stego should take 6-8 since it's, y'know, 6 tonnes. Carno i can't comment on since i haven't tested it after the blood buff. The issue is with the current playable selection, not the stats

[frosty heron]

Just wait till I work on my feedback post with proper videos and shit yall will notice how bad Utah situation is, at this point you're growing meat for scavengers and nothing else

[shrewd storm]

problem is there arent that many tenos to hunt.

[frosty heron]

Play on Teutonic and you will meet an horde of 20 Tenos at Hotspots

[fathom obsidian]

not anymore, 3 is bare minimum, teno can just alt bite em all in 3 hit, we tested that, dont even need to land your tail shots

[stark knoll]

thats not a utah problem

[shrewd storm]

no, but utah cant exist without a food range that it can actually hunt lol

and its almost impossible to find enough dryos or hyspis to eat

u have to hunt big stuff to not die

[golden coral]

And that may not have been the best decision, looking at it now :p

[thin mantle]

It would have to be a pretty bad teno to get killed by 3 utahs in the current state of the game, as a teno I've killed packs of 8+ utahs. Most were terrible ofcourse I won't deny that, but it's still a pretty insane conclusion that tenos can get reliably taken down by utahs in groups of 3, especially with their damage nerf

[stark knoll]

it definitely wasnt, just like deino (imo)

[alpine plover]

Not really, the alt claw effectively negates their positioning since their much slower and easier to predict
The bite is inconsequential in combat other than opening wounds, and there are so many conditions that come with the pounce that makes it worth not using
Say for example:
Bucking
Hills
Missing the pounce
Trees
Water

[winged sierra]

i tested it just earlier today (has there been any change in the past 12 hours?), two utahs can take down a teno if they're patient and competent, though i'd expect that to be a prerequisite for any fight at this point

[shrewd storm]

I think deino will be fine with this next update with thicc rivers and lakes n stuff

[alpine plover]

Let's not forget the one shot tail slams and kicks

[stark knoll]

only on the head

[alpine plover]

Utah is fodder
People have tested this and know it

[stark knoll]

neither slam nor kick are oneshots on the body

[true ginkgo]

I do think that 2-3 utahs for a tenoto is fair.

[shrewd storm]

3-4 Full utahs can easily kill a teno if they're any good

[stark knoll]

but imo teno damage should be decreased on the tail

[fathom obsidian]

how... just buck em of and chase, they have low stam and bleed on you wont do anything

[stark knoll]

its pretty nutty to do that much damage and also hard cc

[thin mantle]

At that point carno would decimate them

[fathom obsidian]

bleed is still roughly 50% of what is used to be on 3.5

[golden coral]

Not really. I could survive just fine as utah and I'm nowhere near "sweaty tryhard". I don't know why people had issues with utah and surviving honestly. You would be perfectly fine solo, better in a pack. Sure, it's probably a bit harder now, especially until we're all used to the changes and all. But it wasn't as if utah was difficult before.

[fathom obsidian]

even after latest bleed "slight buff"

[shrewd storm]

Like I said utah either needs more health or it needs more bleed damage

[stark knoll]

blood pools are almost universally lower than in 3.5 based on patch notes

[fathom obsidian]

yeah but i have my test done wanna see em?

[stark knoll]

sure!

[fathom obsidian]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

here you go

[stark knoll]

cool, thanks

[winged sierra]

chase one and the other will be a problem. Once again, in my experience two to three is enough (though not by any means an easy fight), i'm not sure what else to say

[stark knoll]

were these before or after the most recent bleed buff?

[shrewd storm]

Semi-related, I cant wait for cerato so we have less carno players

[alpine plover]

There were lots of situations that other playables could do that would be lights out for a Utah who was caught off guard
Alot of the other playables had the damage output to effectively kill one
Is that okay?
Yes, it is. It was balanced

[fathom obsidian]

no, im still changing new images right now give me couple of min

i ran the test 2 min ago

[thin mantle]

Wow, utahs are depressingly worse than I thought

[wintry mountain]

Ah yes, one pounce doesnt immdietly nuke an animals BP

[golden coral]

Yes. Teno tail = CC. Swipe and kick = damage.

[wintry mountain]

this is absolutely terrible

[fathom obsidian]

@stark knoll even better ill put new images under prepatch ones ok?

[stark knoll]

thatd be perfect

[fathom obsidian]

no one ask that, we want 3.5 bleed dmg at least, raw dmg nerf is fine

[shrewd storm]

cera will fix all our problems yall

[thin mantle]

Utah's pounce literally does no damage, the tests in the link above don't account for bucking at all

[thin mantle]

God yes

[safe anchor]

utah is a pack hunter it dont make much sense to have it soloing something 4 times its size

[alpine plover]

Yes, a full pounce that puts you in direct risk and conditions for counter play
Sounds awful if it were effective for the reward of risk

[wintry mountain]

So it seems your missing the point of what I said

One pounce

[shrewd storm]

and ai

[wintry mountain]

An animal that is meant to work other animals down, over time, with multiple pounces.

[shrewd storm]

m o r e a i

[thin mantle]

So one pounce shouldn't deal damage? Or deal less than 5% on average?

[alpine plover]

Which happens to be a player that can be counterplayed
No one is wanting it to be oneshotting out here

[thin mantle]

To a fucking carno!?

[shrewd storm]

stress test yall

not for u4 tho

[stark knoll]

thats nowhere near what he said lol

[thin mantle]

Ok clarify then, I'm probably overreacting

[fiery mantle]

I feel like people arguing that Utah is in a good spot are one of 3 types of people:

1.) Never played Utah
2) Carno mains
3.) Teno mains

[shrewd storm]

where are the other 2

[crystal wharf]

i have a feeling its going to be... yup there it is

[fiery mantle]

DLC 4th option: Realism stans

[golden coral]

Correct on both the latters. Has nothing to do with it. I played utah too, I did just fine. Will I do just fine in this patch, no idea, but most likely.

[crystal wharf]

dont agree = must be a carno main @frosty heron hi, im back, gonna try and fail to insult me again?

[golden coral]

Utah was not a difficult playable to survive with.

[winged sierra]

good stats, bad matchups

[stark knoll]

don't flamebait please

[frosty heron]

I'm a Stego main now sorry

[golden coral]

Bork, back off. Turok is my friend and I don't appreciate you behaving like that towards him for no good reason. Disagree is one thing, me and him disagree on a lot, but we don't insult each other.

[crystal wharf]

k

[fathom obsidian]

@stark knoll @winged sierra @wintry mountain updated the doc, new image are right next toprevious test

[stark knoll]

thanks!

[thin mantle]

Keep everything civil

[alpine plover]

I'd put it this way

1. have contempt towards a playable
2. wanting to have to deal with a pack hunting predator much less that requires people's coordination

[thin mantle]

Could you possibly repost the link?

[wintry mountain]

If your struggling to miss the point then I have nothing for you. The animal was reworked to be an attrition based hunter. Its pounce by nature of the mechanic is heavily favorable against slower moving less agile animals you can better hit and get away from.

Yknow what are the exact opposite of this? Teno and Carno. Of course mid tiers are going to serve as a very blatant counter.

On the flip side the latest bleed buff is actually more than sufficient, I've seen and taken part in tests that show utahs in the right hands are very competent animals, you just need to be patient.

[golden coral]

I am being civil.

[fathom obsidian]

compare em to 3.5 still a huge gap

[stark knoll]

imo 1 full pounce taking more than half a carno's pool (even in optimal conditions) is pretty damn good

[winged sierra]

could the balance changes have been rolled out after the current roster was expanded to accommodate utah's new stats? Yes, but that hasn't happened and utah now has appropriate stats with a less than preferable ecosystem. It's still absolutely able to survive, albeit with much more care and emphasis on teamwork

[frosty heron]

It wasn't difficult because it had the agility, the speed and you could jump, but honestly I died many times as Utah because any mistake, bug or lag is death

[thin mantle]

I was accusing you of the exact opposite xD You are advocating for civil behavior I was just agreeing

[wintry mountain]

I personally prefer to play Utahraptor, its what I play atm, and Ive had plenty of fun with the animal once practicing and learning to bide my time

[frosty heron]

So it has one of the worst survivalities

[teal pecan]

Erik, back off. Bork is my friend and I don't appreciate you behaving like that towards him for no good reason. Disagree is one thing, me and him disagree on a lot, but we don't insult each other. (I'm stopping dw)

[fathom obsidian]

that when a carno is starving, not at full food read better

[frosty heron]

No bucking?

[golden coral]

Ah, so noted. Apologies for the misunderstanding then.

[frosty heron]

Because I'm gonna count bucking as a thing, if you don't buck you're doing something wrong

[wide cosmos]

It needs more health, you can't sustain its intended gameplay of attrition if you die in 1 hit

[thin mantle]

Oh don't apologize, I've also gotten a bit conditioned to islecord responses being entirely combative so I get the reaction

[alpine plover]

Is Utah still any good? I’ve heard a lot of complaints but haven’t tried it out myself

[stark knoll]

dont see why the hostility is necessary but thanks, i guess

[shrewd storm]

exactly

[golden coral]

Considering we've not behaved like that, it doesn't quite work as well, but you knew that already I'm sure.

[wintry mountain]

You are an attrition based pack hunter. You arent meant to see results instantaneously. Your best against much slower and less agile animals whom you can use this combat style against the most.

[fathom obsidian]

its not hostility, im not native tongue i dont know how to explain better

[shrewd storm]

its good just needs a small health buff and it'd be golden

[wintry mountain]

attrition /=/ brawler/taking hits

[stark knoll]

soads document was done for testing reasons, to see the potential maximum output of a full pounce

[wintry mountain]

Whole point is to stay away from taking hits via your superior mobility

[teal pecan]

idk I just saw your message and copied it, sent it and then continued making food

[fathom obsidian]

im sorry if it came that way i dunno how to explain better my eng is still a language barrier

[shrewd storm]

ye but being 1 shooted for messing up a tiny bit isnt exactly fair or make much sense.

[wide cosmos]

Can't sustain attrition if your pack drops like flies to random bites and hits.

[frosty heron]

Superior mobility Mobility gets nerfed

[thin mantle]

Inertia and the speed nerf as well as stegos better attack control and carnos alt bite make mobility incredibly difficult to count as an edge. Especially with inertia

[golden coral]

@scarlet onyxYes, dryo runs. Or rather, run/juke, and squeak. That's what dryos do. You do not fight back, and the former damage was stupidly good. You can still kill tiny things, especially now that their damage is nerfed as well.

[golden coral]

Yeah, the inertia needs some work I think. When even a hypsi suffers then well.. maybe it's a bit overdone :p

[shrewd storm]

Again tho, until theres more small playables/ai utah cant hunt tiny stuff on a sustainable basis

[fathom obsidian]

@stark knoll hope you got my response

[shrewd storm]

it needs to kill big stuff to exist atm

[alpine plover]

Testing and things in practice sometimes play out differently once it's in players hands
As more time passes, I'm very doubtful that Utah is gonna pan out "as planned"
Carno, Tenos, and Deinos are mopping the floor against entire packs(not like they couldn't before) at increased rates
And yes Utah should hunt larger slower prey, but the amount of conditions existing even for larger packs to be effective seem like blatant bias against a playables supposed niche
Troodon should've been in this position with a much shorter growth time rather than where Utah is currently

[wide cosmos]

Mobile is no longer superior due to universal speed change

[wintry mountain]

The speed change was universal, moot point. And where it wasnt, those animals still remain vastly slower

[stark knoll]

i did, yea, thank you for clarifying!

[shrewd storm]

food drain increase doesnt help either lol. Dont retain the food you spend 5-20 mins hunting, still hungry after you kill it

[wintry mountain]

That I can agree with, longer hunts should've resulted in longer hunger times.

[thin mantle]

Teno and Utah particularly need it either removed or massively decreased. It's so bad to the point of feeling like input lag at times while sprinting. I've heard people say that Teno shouldn't have it's inertia reduced because of it's weight but that completely disregards it's status as a quadruped, which makes turns like it had pre hotfix possible

[fathom obsidian]

i think you just saw the no food drink damage and not the full food/drink one, there, its a better explanation i think, the main point was, we are still far than 3.5 bleed values thats all i wanted to prove

[thin mantle]

Attack speeds don't slow down tho, you can still trigger every attack at the exact same speed, or in the case of carno, absurdly fast to the point of invulnerability

[shrewd storm]

maybe just increasing food retention will fix all this actually.

[wide cosmos]

For an animal thag rely on dodging, flanking its huge nerf. Steggo, tenno might not care about its slower speed but for Utah it means you window to run in and pounce or get a bite is alot smaller and more predictable

[golden coral]

To be fair, this goes for all current testing too. Let's give it a few weeks live and then we'll see. After all, most other playables have had to deal with things for a good while, it's not the end of the world if utahs have to as well.

[fiery mantle]

I don’t think Utah’s mobility should be a justification for getting 1 shot by literally anything remotely larger than you. Basically you’re expected to either be a perfect player or just not play the animal at all

[shrewd storm]

which is why I want 600 hp

[golden coral]

Long drain times. Much food to fill back up.

[wide cosmos]

Just because everyone got affected doesn't mean it's affects are the same.

[frosty heron]

Something around 550 hp might do fine imo

[thin mantle]

And this is only if you can be lucky enough to find a pack to compensate for your terrible stats

[scarlet onyx]

In complete disagreement of the former damage. it was over 10 headshots to a adult utah to kill it. A utah that takes 10 headbites from a dryo is unreasonably bad.

[frosty heron]

Problem with 600 it might take 4 shots for a Carno counting heal

[fiery mantle]

To which you will still watch half of them die to 1 tenonto

[shrewd storm]

570 there middle ground

[frosty heron]

Could be done if we consider the alt bite

[wide cosmos]

If carno lads alt bite which is very strong now you'll die in 3

[frosty heron]

Current 2 body hits at it does 250 dmg

[wide cosmos]

600 seem alot more reasonable than 450

[true ginkgo]

Betting off nerfing the alt bite / tenoto tail slam than changing around the HP.

[fiery mantle]

To anyone saying Utah is in a good spot, please go in game right now and try having fun applying the play style you’re advocating for, I promise you that you will not want to play Utah again.

[wide cosmos]

You'll be barely able to survive tenno tail or deino bit

[thin mantle]

indeed, I can understand that the skill ceiling for teno is pretty high, especially when it comes to reactions and timing, but as someone who has around 500 hrs on teno, I can confirm that at a certain level of skill U3.5 utahs become an irrelevant threat. Now that they are weaker than that they are essentially mosquitos

[wide cosmos]

And that's ok

[wintry mountain]

And if we are?

[golden coral]

Even so. You should not be able to pull that in the first place. You're a dryo. Act like it! But it's fine to disagree, I just think dryos should be of the run and squeak variety. Combat dryo was not to my tates at all.

[wintry mountain]

At the end of the day its differing opinions. You cant really say either side is wrong because we both want different things.

[true ginkgo]

Or sure, have 600hp utah, and then get the model upsized to the max speculative utahs which arn't even proven.

Which means you're easier to hit too.

[frosty heron]

Trust me and I didn't even had the time to test it and I'm already depressed just by watching other people testing

[golden coral]

I will try. I will grow a utah somewhere and see if I can survive.

[fiery mantle]

I seriously doubt you will.

[frosty heron]

I've become a Stego main now and live the easy mode game

[shrewd storm]

increasing health doesnt mean an increase in size per se

[winged sierra]

yep, enjoying the new intended playstyle. It's understandable if you disagree but you can't use someone's enjoyment to gauge whether something is well balanced or not lol

[wintry mountain]

You dont have to doubt when I personally already am.

[thin mantle]

Stego is monumentally comfy to play, nothing can kill you, like seriously nothing can kill you if you pay attention

[wide cosmos]

600 hp Utah would still be weaker than 1000hp Utah from before accounting for damage rebalancing

[golden coral]

@fiery mantleKeep in mind, people enjoy different things. Maybe they enjoy the current utah. I don't enjoy current stego because of how the attacks work, since that's not how a stego should be. But I'm sure there are people who enjoy current stego anyway.

[shrewd storm]

well ya but it wouldnt die to everything bigger than it immediately

[frosty heron]

And if you're worried about pounces just stay by shallows, pounces are glitched there

[shrewd storm]

utah was too strong before

[golden coral]

Welcome to the herd! ^^

[true ginkgo]

Health is linked to weight. And the in game utah is 450kg as it's so skinny and lightly built.

If you want the HP of a larger dino, you need the model of a larger dino.

[thin mantle]

Or just, any object you can't step over

[shrewd storm]

health being liked to weight is bad tho, another thing im getting at. Dislike it because then it forces you to change weight if something needs more health

[wide cosmos]

No 600 hp you could survive one tenno tail slap or deino bit. And survive more than 2 carno bites. That is more reasonable than getting 1-2 shooted

[robust finch]

keep in mind this is a pre u4 balance patch so with diets we will prolly get buffs /nerfs

[true ginkgo]

All fun and games till an acro turns up.

Which is needed to balance out stego.

[scarlet onyx]

I get what you're saying but dryo isn't a hypsi or a taco my guy. It's 250 pounds and uses blunt force damage from its beak. 250 pounds getting pecked in the face 10 times is going to do a quite a bit of damage, I really don't get this argument, I think you people are forgetting how big dryo actually is

[frosty heron]

Acro won't show up for ages, Sadge

[shrewd storm]

thats y I want 600ish hp for utah

[true ginkgo]

It makes sense though. A 120kg dryo having more health than a 500kg stego was absolutely absurd. And a 500kg utah having 3x the health of a 500kg stego was ridiculous, especially as they'd been growing similar times.

[frosty heron]

I can be safely playing Stego for at least 4 more Updates

[fiery mantle]

I understand that, prime example being Ptera. It’s not really my cup of tea but I can understand the appeal behind it. The problem is Utah is effectively useless at living in general. Hunting is an absurdly punishing task and even just avoiding threats is equally challenging when you’re growing

[thin mantle]

I don't understand it either, dryo shouldn't be an irrelevant threat to everything

[shrewd storm]

not saying it wasnt wrong before, but it makes it inflexible to balance now with this system

[golden coral]

True enough. If it was vs a human or other fragile animal. But the utah is comparatively powerful vs a dryo. Heavier, designed to fight, being a predator. And so on. Though to be fair, I don't think taco or hypsi are good playables. I believe nothing smaller than dryo/herrera should be playable. And I'm sure someone will yell at me for that ^^

[true ginkgo]

Dryo is an absolutely tiny dedicated fleeing animal. Beip and proto will be the animals around that size which pack more punch.

[thin mantle]

Then why does it get curbstomped by every other creature besides dryo hypsi and ptera

[true ginkgo]

If you want to hunt things, don't use dryo.

[fathom obsidian]

i kinda like squishy utah, but i wish bleed stayed the same

[shrewd storm]

h e a l t h o r b l e e d i n c r e a s e

[true ginkgo]

Makes more sense to nerf the damage of the carno alt bite and the tenoto tail slam if they're one shotting it.

[scarlet onyx]

Funny enough, if anyone wants to argue this with me any further, a hypsi now has half as much bite force as a dryo. Let that sink in.

[spare badger]

How exactly did bleed change?

[wintry mountain]

Only one one shotting utah is teno tail slam

and thats with head hits

[thin mantle]

That is.... wow
(Also hi vibro)

[golden coral]

I will try it out and see how bad it is. I just meant in relation to enjoying how to play utah now. If it's truly that terrible to even survive with, then I'm sure it'll get finetuned. It could very well have been enough to just buff stego and finetune the others, and not touch utah at all except the damage nerf (though they were universal so, and I get what they want to do with making everything use its abilities primarily).

[fathom obsidian]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

[fathom obsidian]

carno charge also but i think ist fine

[wintry mountain]

Aye

[scarlet onyx]

Oh didn't notice that was you, Mr Fluff haha. Yes, give our babies their due respect

[true ginkgo]

Dryo is still able to murder ptera... an animal its own size.

[thin mantle]

Yeah my name was too long for a discussion oriented server 😉

[golden coral]

I know. Unfortunately I suspect some strange things are unavoidable :p

[fathom obsidian]

why the french bread lol

[thin mantle]

Ptera is not the same size as a dryo, dryo outweighs it by 5 times over

[thin mantle]

A symbol of perfection ofcourse

[true ginkgo]

90 x 5 = 120?

[thin mantle]

Oh sorry is it 90? I thought it was 50 my bad

[wide cosmos]

Steggo tail should be only thing one shoting utahs. Utahs should be able to barely survive a deino bite, tenno tail, carno charge. Only die to those things if you were damaged before or from followup attacks.

[thin mantle]

And I thought dryo was 250 for some reason xD

Again, my bad

[true ginkgo]

legacy dryo was 500 i think

[frosty heron]

We're not even taking in consideration the locked damage which takes ages to heal

[thin mantle]

Yeah all these various stats for the same animal are messing with my brain

[thin mantle]

That should seriously have never been a mechanic, I cannot understand it's utility

[true ginkgo]

aggro bird attacked my dryo. Jumped as it came in on a low pass and it got stuck on me and fell to the ground.

Murdered it.

[frosty heron]

Devs said its made so people won't go on constant hunts

[golden coral]

It should, we just need the "counter" in.

[frosty heron]

But it takes ages to heal it, that's the problem

[golden coral]

Well that, and I always figured it was to allow for weaker targets to hunt

[frosty heron]

Add boring locked damage to the already fragile Utah and you have a piece of meat with legs

[thin mantle]

A counter to a health lock? What does that even mean?

[thin mantle]

But that isn't needed, why would we want to prevent people from hunting?

[golden coral]

Such as licking salt rocks, or eating a rare flower, to heal up. You know, forcing you to be out and about and at risk because of said locked healt. So you act as a weak and wounded prey among the others in your pack or herd.

[true ginkgo]

I think certain herbs or something were meant to help heal it?

[golden coral]

To.. make this less of a deathmatch and more of a survival game where you care about your life and act carefully.

[thin mantle]

Well I assumed that's what fractures are for, I would think that's more than enough of a debilitating debuff

[frosty heron]

Not hunting but constant hunts, means if you just killed a Carno and got damaged on the hunt, they want you to not hunt another one immediately, and if you do well, your HP is lower so is a disvantage

[golden coral]

Possibly, but that's more of a direct combat related thing. Locked health is more to paint a target on you among your fellows, for a longer while.

[fiery mantle]

It wouldn’t be so bad if Utah’s damage was good enough to at least compensate for how frail it is. I know a lot of people will agree with me when I say if Utah’s damage was better but just as frail, we’d have no problem with it

[frosty heron]

I'm fine with that, it's just the worst locked dmg takes like 30 minutes to heal, wtf is that xD

[fathom obsidian]

anyone know how can i come with a number from bleed images?

like a fraction, accurately

[thin mantle]

Well yeah that's why you have to run away and heal, but it's just aggravating to have a massive chunk of health you can't heal

[thin mantle]

But that's what I would assume fractures and bleed would be fore, not an arbitrary lock of health

[golden coral]

Time is fine. But it should be time spent looking for the healing stuff, not sitting in a bush!

[frosty heron]

It was 30 minutes of sitting on rocks, that's uh not fun...

[thin mantle]

Why not? Usually animals will sleep when gravely injured, they don't find rocks to lick

[golden coral]

I don't think bleed or fracture last that long. You win the fight, you go wallow, and you're good, unless you really lost a lot of blood. And same with fractures most likely.

[frosty heron]

It's like growing for a second time, being adult

[golden coral]

Because we want you to be out and about and vunerable?

[golden coral]

Hence why I said time was fine, but not just sitting it off :p

[thin mantle]

Well for fracture that has yet to be decided, for bleed I can understand that explanation

[golden coral]

If you spent those 30 min roaming a forest for a plant, you'd be actively doing something, and be putting yourself at risk because a predator might be waiting around just for a case like yours.

[thin mantle]

Why? I thought being in a hunt in which another animal comes that close to killing you would make you vulnerable enough. Forcing you into a "medic stage" for a dino that requires to hunt in order to live seems pretty arbitrary

[golden coral]

Let me ask you then. Out of all the times you've been badly wounded. How many of those times have you been caught and killed because of said wounds?

As in, after the first combat is done of course and you're away and trying to recover.

[thin mantle]

Many, often there will be other carnis waiting for a victor or for one party to run due to wounds at which point they will attack

[primal dove]

man this shit is so stupid if u think about it, remember why utah got nerfed? Because it could pin bigger things down and that´s it. Now we have a dino which struggles to kill literally anything (EVEN IN A PACK)

[cedar shore]

@alpine plover did you copy my idea now? heh

[thin mantle]

Again, many times. You don't always need to be in constant danger in this game, there are places you should go to to heal. I would assume the time commitment it takes to heal would be punishment enough

[golden coral]

Perhaps you've had more misfortune than I have then. Because through all of my experience, it's rarely, if ever happened. Being hunted down by the pack if I tried to escape, sure, that has happened a good few times. But being found by a new threat, not very often.

[primal dove]

they should´ve just removed being able to pin down bigger things and leave it untouched

[alpine plover]

I may have subconsciously picked it up moments ago

[cedar shore]

I may have done the same

[golden coral]

So I will grant you that it's a bit of a personal experience in how we see things. I think normal healing would be fine if it forced you out a bit more than it does currently. At least in my experience you can heal up and remain hidden pretty well, unless you've started out on very low food or water (mostly carni since herbi have grazing at that).

[fiery mantle]

The heal lock thing actually ain't bad. I like it

[golden coral]

I would however not count someone watching and "third-partying". They're already involved and waiting for their opportune moment. I mean mostly when you're away from it all, and are later in trouble.

[cedar shore]

Were you also in the MrDbear playtests?

[sonic flame]

@alpine plover do keep in mind that QA isn't allowed to choose when/what gets new attack animations or anything

for example, there is nothing that can be done from QA to get Stego a new tail swing if the devs don't want a new tail swing

[thin mantle]

Right but I would prefer not to be in danger at every moment of gameplay, I guess that's why I don't support "losing a fight makes you vulnerable due to travel requirements"

[cedar shore]

what does that have to do with the idea of a part of QA specialized in game balance?

[sonic flame]

I'm simply addressing one of their points from their post in feedback about how QA is being contrarian for the sake of it

[cedar shore]

ok

[sonic flame]

That being that QA for some reason would decide that Stego shouldn't get a new attack when it's overwhelmingly a popular opinion

[cedar shore]

What do you think about the idea of having a part of QA specialized in combat balance?

[sonic flame]

Fact of the matter is that some things simply can't be changed, like neither I nor any other member can animate and implement an attack for an animal that doesn't do what we want

[sonic flame]

Idk, would be neat, but then not everyone gets an equal voice

[alpine plover]

Of course, but feedback at what would resolve a hyper specific encounter(and future ones) rather than stat boosts would make things much interesting and players more happy with dynamic solutions
And above all, Feedback from QA matters, and players have been feeling lately that the feedback when it comes to balance is overstepping it's bounds

[sonic flame]

you'd end up with even wackier balance than now

[golden coral]

Fair enough. And I can certainly agree that downtime is nice, but maybe not after you've just survived a battle. Avoid battle in the first place :p But yeah, slightly different outlooks here, and it's fine I think.

[cedar shore]

I mean, if they have people that are passionate about the games combate like me and many others i feel like they could end up with good results for balance suggestions

[thin mantle]

Yeah either way downtime will exist, and of all times for that downtime to exist I would argue it's the most needed after escaping a battle, considering how much adrenaline and focus a player has just undergone xD

[sonic flame]

You'd want a very large group, to prevent everyone from only buffing their mains and nerfing whatever counters them

[golden coral]

That depends on what the balance teams job is. I think it there was a clear balance vision, then a balance team to make it all work would be just fine. You could provide a vision from the devs, and the community gets to have a say, and then devs decide on the balance. Hand it over to the team to make it work like the vision says.

[cedar shore]

If they are selectively suggesting buffs just so they can enjoy playing their main dino more they probably shouldnt be in the QA combat testing team

[sonic flame]

The problem is that when an animal has a clear vision that's usually dependent on mechanics that aren't in yet

[golden coral]

I don't know. Passionate about the combat tends to just mean want all the PvP. I'd say they need a balance team with passion for survival first and foremost. PvP is part of it, but so is PvE.

[sonic flame]

You aren't wrong, doesn't stop many many other games from having this exact issue though

[alpine plover]

Focus groups have been a thing for a long time
And setting strict applications are time consuming, but shouldn't be too difficult

[sonic flame]

It's more so that balance is also something that does need to be considered from everyone's view, not just from those who care about the combat only

[cedar shore]

Yeah i get that, but i feel like surviving and combat is 2 differnet aspects of this game

[thin mantle]

Passion regarding PvP is only focused on the pvp aspect of the game, that doesn't mean pve would be neglected, it's just that the pvp qa would be focused on Combat specifically

[sonic flame]

The casuals do deserve to have their voice heard instead of the game becoming super competitive

[golden coral]

Not sure I share that outlook on it.

[golden coral]

It's more so that many people that want PvP has the outlook of fighting, rather than survival. Maybe I phrased myself badly here. But PvP should be balanced based on survival and "realism", and a lot of people who are passionate don't care about that "realism" and ecosystem part of the game.

[sonic flame]

You also might end up with balance directed at pit fighting or something like that

i.e. if you always test fights in an arena setting where retreat isn't an option, you'll end up with strange balance when put into the far different environments of the map

[cedar shore]

I suppose, but when refering to combat im generally not talking about a dinosaurs capability to flee from a fight

[thin mantle]

Well ultimately the game can't be too focused on realism either, otherwise an animal would die of starvation every time a leg bone was damaged.

And growth times would literally take years xD I know you aren't advocating for that but defining realism would be useful

[sonic flame]

True but it's equally if not more important to be able to get away from a fight rather than outright kill the opponent

Maia wouldn't care about killing an Allo, just getting away

not that you couldn't kill one to be fair, but that's not that animal's main goal

[alpine plover]

Though the combat is intergral to the survival itself, as the two concepts are intertwined for it's genre
The success of one player often meets the death/frustration of the other
Which is why I believe it's the upmost importance that balance should always be taken to a serious extant as playables exist with different stats, abilities, and sizes
Players will not usually take it kindly to play something that requires a significantly less room for margin of error and more emphasis on communication to get less than ideal, or sullied results compared to another playable

[golden coral]

True enough. But people sometimes like to argue that skill should be the only thing that matter. Vs stats being the only thing. And then we get this sort of mess. But yes, that's why I put "realism" and not actual realism as in reality. More so that both stats and skill should matter. We don't want "everything can just kill/fight everything" but we also don't want "this thing is literally invincible/untouchable by this other thing".

[cedar shore]

raptor essentially

[sonic flame]

True, balance should be looked at very carefully, and animal's generally shouldn't be seen as just flat out worse versions of other animals, but I don't think that's something that is happening here

[golden coral]

To be fair, survival as a genre isn't really... about survival most of the time. Most of the games are action/other with some "drain" mechanic added.

[sonic flame]

for example look at Utah, it's the only animal of its size that is supposed to be killing things many times larger, and it does this thanks to pounce instead of simply having high enough base stats to get away with it

[thin mantle]

That is an incredibly balanced perspective I'd say. Although perfecting combat and is such a vital part of the game above all else, since it's such an important mechanic. That's probably why it's getting so much attention now, because the recent "fix" has changed combat for both better and worse

[swift beacon]

somewhat confused what this means for Dilo seeing that it's shown hunting/harassing a Stego on its own in its dossier

[alpine plover]

Sure 8 Utahs can take out one Stego
But that's not always gonna happen
What is gonna happen is that players will sometimes meet 1-2 other players and be locked out of most hunting interactions because of a stack of arbitrary conditions on their capabilities regardless of skill, and be at the mercy of Carno and giving up resources to future larger predators
With Utah's being negated out of their 10-15 minute concentrated kills by contesting. They won't have the tools necessary to deter competition from taking their resources

[cedar shore]

Good, im a bit worried that the QA balances dinos in terms of realism going out from a previous take from a QA member

[sonic flame]

For Dilo it'd likely mean that its venom is going to allow it to selectively deal with larger animals as well, though could be due to concept art hyping the animal up as well

[golden coral]

Thank you! And yes, it is important, which is why a proper balance team would be very needed. And more importantly, testing one or few changes at a time. Right now we don't know how it would look if we just kept the stego buffs, but reversed the utah nerfs. We also don't know how it would work if we just added a bit of health to utah, upped the weight a little. Or changed that back, but kept stegos new health anyway. And so on.

[sonic flame]

QA isn't unified on balance, we're just a group of people like any other community, we just do adhoc testing and stuff

[fathom obsidian]

agree

[cedar shore]

Man i wana be a qa member

[sonic flame]

This is true, however it's a very very fine line. Utah could likely get some buffs but you don't want to turn it into a situation where 1-2 Utahs can take out a Stego pretty easily.

[golden coral]

Well, your playable is limited by what it can do statwise. That is only proper. This is why there has to be a balance between skill and stats. Skill is one thing, stats is another. And as long as you can survive, all is well. That is the main balance point.

You can't argue utah is a bad playable because you don't always get to do the full epic "apex" hunts.

[swift beacon]

something else to consider is that once you get the numbers to hunt Stego, you can also turn the tables on solo Carnos as well

[sonic flame]

Utah suffers from a few issues at the moment, but very few of them I'd say are due to its stats

[golden coral]

Or badly balanced because of it.

[swift beacon]

possibly small packs as well

[stark knoll]

imo utahs current issues are roster-based

[thin mantle]

Yeah I maybe think implementing small changes would be much much better than changing pretty much all combat stats at once. That is an insane degree of deliberation that all begins at once, it can be convoluted, and chats like this are direct proof of that xD We have discussed several different stat changes that all occurred on one day. And it's been complete chaos.

[sonic flame]

Utah's built for pack hunts, like how Troodon is a horde animal. You're unlikely to see too many animals seriously threatened by a lone Utah or 2

[cedar shore]

I want 3 good utahs to be able to take down a single carno, as for stegos around 5 depending on how skilled the players are

[fathom obsidian]

depends on pachy, if pachy gonna bully utah im gonna be sad lol

[fiery mantle]

Seems ur buddies aren’t in agreement on that one. I think just making damage worthwhile would solve the problem

[golden coral]

This. If you overdo it, we get the former issues back. So it's very difficult to figure out how to buff utah while still keeping the 6-8 utahs for a stego matchup for example.

[swift beacon]

3-4 seems fine for Carno assuming they're good, though 5 is far too low for Stego since that'd ripple down back to Carno and reduce the needed number

[stark knoll]

like i can imagine utahs slaughtering maias and paras since they lack the range that stego does. but we dont have maias and paras, we have a high-range high-damage tank and 2 mobile pseudomids

[sonic flame]

Define worthwhile, because do keep in mind you don't want to have it be like "welp I got pounced once and even with buck I just die" either due to outright damage or from crippling bleed

[thin mantle]

And that can't be your only goal, utah needs to be viable outside of that one matchup as well, and right now carnos are basically immune to utah attacks

[sonic flame]

Carno is also an animal built to clown on smaller animals tho

[cedar shore]

3 utahs and 1 carno should be a 50, 50 matchup.

[sonic flame]

granted it seems a little over tuned imo, alt bite is a tad too fast now

[stark knoll]

carnos alt bite is nuts

[swift beacon]

I'd have it 60/40 in favor of Carno given the alt bite

[stark knoll]

imo it and carnos turn should be slowed

[thin mantle]

Plus utahs literally cannot do anything to carnos if in the plains, inertia makes dodging bites very hard

[alpine plover]

I'm not advocating for 1-2 Utah apex hunts, didn't really bring anything of the sort up
I'm saying that the amount of conditions for it's abilities to be effective, and nerfing it's stats to be dependent of those abilities
Makes it a frustrating dino to play currently regardless of skill(though this could be because of a lot of bugs)
The interactions it used to have compared to now are much more dull, especially when it's struggling to "pack hunt"
And I don't want other playables to follow strictly suite as well

[swift beacon]

putting it to 4 Utahs would turn it 60/40 in favor of Utahs

[fathom obsidian]

carno alt bite animation looks like a chicken pecking, its so bad lol

[golden coral]

Of course not. That was just an example. But it is valid. It has to be working x in one condition, and y in another. And therein lies the issues, yeah? :p

[fiery mantle]

Pounce is fine, a little underwhelming in terms of raw damage but bleed is great. The problem is that having little to no other attack options makes it feel like Utah is just meant to pounce and that’s it

[cedar shore]

we did some fighting on mrdbears testing server today and carnos alt bite is still pretty useless though fast

[swift beacon]

jump

[thin mantle]

Indeed

[fathom obsidian]

bleed is not great its worse than update 3.5, much worse

[thin mantle]

Your jump basically puts your hitbox in front of the carnos mouth 😐

[swift beacon]

inertia works against them just as much as it works against you

[fiery mantle]

Oh really? I actually didn’t know it was worse

[swift beacon]

weird. might've been a sub Carno I jumped over the other day then.

[thin mantle]

It is heaps worse, check out they're link

[fiery mantle]

Jesus they’re even worse than I thought then

[thin mantle]

Perhaps, you gotta account for how much smaller utahs are now

[swift beacon]

Utah didn't actually change scale I don't think

[thin mantle]

That was almost word for word what I said when I read the stats

[fiery mantle]

I just wish people would be willing to accept that Utah is in desperate need of attention

[golden coral]

Alright. Maybe I misunderstood a little. Just clarifying my own stance that both skill and stats must play an influence. I don't know how frustrating utah is right now, so give me a week or two to get used to it, and we'll see. I can very well end up agreeing, or maybe my experience differs entirely.

[thin mantle]

It did, it got smaller

[lament gale]

it didnt

[swift beacon]

🤔

masswise it definitely decreased, but I don't think its dimensions changed a bit

[golden coral]

Why would it still be useless then?

[alpine plover]

Let's spin a new perspective on the argument everyone

[sonic flame]

Utah's other options are built for combat against similarly sized animals, rather than built for harassing much larger targets

Like against Pachy or Dryo for example, bite is a useful tool, less so against Teno and Carno, and basically useless against something as large as Stego

[true ginkgo]

Part of the attention it needs is comparable same lane animals to interact with.

[sonic flame]

this is opposed to how before it was bite is better than pounce in nearly every use case

[thin mantle]

Definitely reduces the skill ceiling by making it's only viable attack method the click and hold of a button

[swift beacon]

depends on the scale of your target.

[golden coral]

I think most of us are willing to accept that, we're just worried it goes overboard the other way again. I stand firm that it should take 6-8 utahs and at least 15 min to hunt a stego. And I think 2-3 utahs vs a teno or carno is fine, and 5-10 min, probs less for carno, more for a defensive teno. Now the question is, how do we achieve this fine balance? And I do think utahs should pretty much rely on pounce for any form of killing things larger than themselves, as it stands, with bleed obviously.

[swift beacon]

the smaller the scale difference between you and your opponent, the more the bite will do

[lament gale]

its biggest issues are a lack of actual prey items

[swift beacon]

that too

[sonic flame]

One big issue as well is that yeah, hunger times are really short as well

[thin mantle]

No not really, it's only viable attack method is pouncing. Anything small enough to be susceptible to your bite doesn't require skill to combat, just attrition and perseverance tracking. Not combat skill

[sonic flame]

45 min hunger for every animal 'cept Teno/Stego/Deino

[lament gale]

ye bring back longer hunger times lol

[sonic flame]

so if you have a hunt against something like a Stego that is supposed to take a long time, you won't kill it before you starve out

[true ginkgo]

Yeah longer hunger times could allow better attrition fights

[golden coral]

That's still part of survival. Perhaps the focus is too much on "skill" and forgetting smarts, and survival. I mean, scavenging and staying alive is as valid as fighting.

[fiery mantle]

I definitely understand the point you’re making here and I get it, but right now it feels like even a ton of Utah’s can’t accomplish a hunt on a larger animal

[thin mantle]

When rotting corpses show up in the game, scavenging won't be an option

[sonic flame]

That's because of the 4 large animals, all of them have something that lets them dunk on Utah, this won't be the case with every large animals, but it is for our current roster

[golden coral]

Increased food times and increased food demand.

[alpine plover]

Say for example they nerf all of Carno's stats, like hp, speed, and damage
While adding cooldowns and conditions for it's charge
This change would make Carno now dependant on it's Charge for hunting slighty larger prey and be it's main tool for combat
While you may be initially mixed about these changes, now imagine someone saying "it still follows it niche" or "it serves it's purpose"
That may be true, but that doesn't make it a well received or "fun" change for this playable. The frustrating condtions for it's capabilites make it a less fun animal to play, and a more dull creature in the ecosystem to interact with.

[sonic flame]

that being that Deino lives in water, Stego can catch dismounting Utahs and is too big to be beaten, Teno and Carno are both fast enough to catch you on a dismount and punish extra hard after bucking you off

[golden coral]

Depends on what you can eat and how fresh it is. But aside from scavenging, my point was mostly that attrition or tracking and stuff is also part of your skillset to survive.

[fiery mantle]

I really do hope you’re right about that one. It’s just a shame that until then (which will take a while) playing Utah is just not very rewarding

[swift beacon]

for now, perhaps, but against the likes of Pachy, Rugops, Mono, and Dilo and possibly Ava you'll be getting more mileage from brawling than trying to pounce a target your size that lives a full pounce and can bite back once you gas out

[thin mantle]

Right, but that isn't nearly as engaging or execution dependent as combat with other animals

[sonic flame]

This is what happened with the charge tho, it was emphasized via nerfs to its other stats and buffing charge

[thin mantle]

Yeah perhaps, yet another reasons these stat changes shouldn't have been implemented yet

[lament gale]

they should've

[sonic flame]

Hell, pounce does have several things going for it, it's just that Utah could probably use some extra help

[lament gale]

if they didnt, we'd legit have pre patch utah, which isnt what the animal is supposed to be

[sonic flame]

just not so much help that you run into the melter of Stegos

[swift beacon]

you shouldn't balance around the idea that something isn't in the game yet

[golden coral]

Carno did have a cooldown on charge earlier. But I don't know, that latter comes down to fun, and that's subjective. Maybe not fun to you, but I think I could be okay with it. I don't really mind if it's "limited" in the same way perhaps, if it's following it's niche and doing what it should. It depends on the "conditions" as it were.

[true ginkgo]

Pachy and troodon will both be more enjoyable animals for utah to interact with. Glad they’re coming

[fiery mantle]

Yeah that’s what I mean. Nothing drastic just some sort of help here

[sonic flame]

counterpoint is that you shouldn't balance an animal to be something it isn't

[golden coral]

Shouldn't the dismount have been fixed for that though?

[alpine plover]

It is still very competent without the charge though
In combat and hunting with just it's regular old bite
And together with an "added" alt bite to help it out defensively
It mows down Utahs

[sonic flame]

yesn't, it's possible still, but far stricter

[alpine plover]

The point is
Utah did not get a significant change to iron out or justify these nerfs

[thin mantle]

Irrespective of what it is supposed to be, it isn't ready for changes to it's stats since preferred prey items for utahs without large packs simply don't exist

[swift beacon]

no, I'm saying that; just because Stego's in a roster of smalls doesn't mean you shouldn't balance it for the things it'll face later because they aren't in yet

[sonic flame]

Utah's pounce did get a significant increase to its bleed damage though

[primal dove]

facts

[lament gale]

you have food options though.

[fathom obsidian]

wrong

[thin mantle]

What?

[lament gale]

its not a lot, but like, again, you dont need to go after the adult stego every single time

[thin mantle]

It actually didn't, it's bleed is lower than before

[alpine plover]

Inb4 bleed, the conditions to apply that have so many counterplay or negation
Like terrain, environment, bucking

[sonic flame]

Actually no the value was increased in a hotfix, it's higher proportionally but due to lower raw damage it's lower that it was last time

[swift beacon]

Hypsi, Dryo, and Stego are all good options for food for Utah

[lament gale]

dryo, hypsi, juvenile animals, other utahs, those exist outside of 6t herbivore.

[alpine plover]

Once a Carno charge connects, there is no button to negate that for the victim

[swift beacon]

extremely lost Deinos are also good picks if you can exhaust it

[fathom obsidian]

yes, i wish it was like u3.5

far from it

[swift beacon]

if you're getting hit by a Carno charge you done fucked up

[golden coral]

Maybe not, but that's where survival mentality comes in. And I find it well enough because my only goal is to remain alive. I main stego, my life is "Go to water, go to bush, rinse and repeat" barring anyone finding me, and that's pretty fine to me. As long as we get nesting and elders, I'm more or less good. Though of course I want to be hunted every now and then at the very least. I'm just trying to say that just working to stay alive should be the exciting thing. It's just too easy as it stands, at least as herbi. Could be a bit more difficult for carni now with food changes, though that was needed for megapacking I think.

[thin mantle]

Not enough players play hypsi or dryo to justify it's reliance on them for food. Cannibalism shouldn't be encouraged for an animal intended to work in groups

[alpine plover]

As it should yes

[sonic flame]

The problem is that fundamentally having a very high raw damage on pounce is bad because it makes Utah just melt animals instead of wearing them down

[swift beacon]

it has to run to max speed, plays a loud sound when activating, and relies on you not getting out of the way for it to actually hit you

[fiery mantle]

How recent was this change?

[lament gale]

those are still food options though? you're acting like you MUST hunt every stego you see

[sonic flame]

Like yesterday

[fathom obsidian]

no one want raw pounce dmg, but bleed dmg like 3.5

[alpine plover]

If you're gonna make a playable more dependent on an ability, you must have clear felt changes to justify or have the ability more worthwhile for using

[true ginkgo]

Stego will hopefully be more balanced once we get allo, Alberto, and eventually acro

[lament gale]

ye

[sonic flame]

3.5's bleed was due to raw, Utah's bleed damage is actually higher, but overall damage was reduced

[fiery mantle]

I want Alberto so bad

[fathom obsidian]

so you are saying that raw dmg is tied to bleed dmg?

[swift beacon]

Utah can pounce and deal constant bleed damage to a target as long as its stamina holds out, and is mostly safe from active harm while mounted

[lament gale]

like utah rn only feels "lacklustre" because it can really only hunt like, 2 things solo, excluding juveniles

[sonic flame]

not directly but it's influenced by it

[thin mantle]

I suppose this is an issue of focus. You prefer a slower more longevity oriented playstyle that doesn't require combat to survive. For animals like utah and carno, those aspects are inevitable. Rn utahs cannot hunt outside of groups and the dryo/hypsi playerbase is not enough to sustain the growth of packs to challenge larger players

[sonic flame]

higher raw, with nothing else changed, leads to higher bleed

[fathom obsidian]

gotcha thanks, it may need some more bumps then, only to bleed

[swift beacon]

coupled with a much safer dismount, the only times you can actively hit a Utah that's pounced are before it connects, or if it falls off somehow

[sonic flame]

Utah had raw reduced, and proportionally increased bleed damage, but the overall lowering was more than the increase could account for

[golden coral]

Counterpoint to that is. Plan your hunt. Wait for the prey to not be in close presence of good defense. Most plants I've seen are out in the open plains, decently far from water and with few trees.

[thin mantle]

^

[swift beacon]

lastly, I think the trees might be moreso so that the pouncing asset doesn't get stuck in them like they used to

[sonic flame]

Utah's pounce bleed atm is a little lower than 3.5's

however its raw damage is far lower

[fathom obsidian]

not a little, its closer to before the buff than 3.5

[alpine plover]

Another couterpoint, most encounters will not be ideal
Discouragement should exist yes
But the conditions stack against Utah in most scenarios for it's now dependent ability to be of slight use
Even missing it is a death sentence, while a Carno is free to run off from missing a charge

[fathom obsidian]

you seen my doc yes?

[thin mantle]

The pounce miss animation should not exist with how terrible utahs stats are

[sonic flame]

send it, I'll compare

[fathom obsidian]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

[safe anchor]

Utah feels lacking because you where all use to im op and can solo kill something like steggo which makes 0 sense a pack animal that can solo something X amount of size bigger then it.keep in mind it is still a big wip so things might change who knows

[lament gale]

pr much ye

[golden coral]

I am aware of the issue with lack of prey items. I believe the diet update will fix that in short order. And yes, it is in part a differencen in focus and preference, as most things tend to be if we're honest. I'm survival first, pvp/pve econd. It's not so much that it doesn't "require" combat, I do after all enjoy a fight too, but it's more so that the main satisfaction comes from remaining alive and thriving, above all else.

[lament gale]

that fact that it was never supposed to be the one utah army that pre patch utah was justifies the nerf enough alone.

[alpine plover]

Stego solo'ing was mostly a Stego problem rather than a Utah problem to be fair
Stego mains discussed this in depth

[true ginkgo]

Update 4 will bring pachy which will be much more entertaining to fight as a solo utah.

[lament gale]

it was also an issue that utah could do that much dmg to a stego without using pounce

[alpine plover]

Stegos were getting harassed by most juvies prior

[ocean glade]

yo anyone knows what the new teno claw does for damage?

bite is 25 but claw?

[fathom obsidian]

also is there a way to rename the way i wrote the patches/version to make it more clear for you guys?

[golden coral]

True enough on the missing pounce. I've argued it can be replaecd by stamina drain so it's still no good to spam pounces, but no longer punishing. And yes, most encounters will not be ideal, that's why we need time to plan, prepare, and so on. Hunger times is a thing there, and I'm in favour of longer times, and more food requirements. For every playable really.

[primal dove]

not every utah wants to be able to 1v1 anything pls just keep that in mind. I always have the feeling u think that we want utah buffs so we can take on solo carnos/tenos. Might be wrong tho can´t see ur thoughts.

[sonic flame]

just use version numbers

[thin mantle]

For you ofcourse, I literally only play the game because I found the combat satisfying. The lack of survival oriented mechanics made it irrelevant as to whether my dino lived a long life, because that doesn't reward me in any way right no. Ofcourse I switch to a midset similar to yours once pve is actually in the game, because for now pvp is the only thing in Evrima to do

[fathom obsidian]

can you give me latest u3.5 numbers and pre u4 before hotfix number?

[sonic flame]

uh yes lemme check

[fathom obsidian]

thanks

i dunno where i can find em

[sonic flame]

patch notes on steam

0.7.109.09 is 3.5

0.7.111.31 is current public, I think

[golden coral]

We did yes. Unfortunately, as someone pointed out, we can't just change how stego works. At least not for now.

[fathom obsidian]

also are the numbers close to what you have or cant confirm or deny

[sonic flame]

I can't give specifics but also I don't track pictures

I have exact numbers so I'll need to guesstimate

[safe anchor]

yes and no but the idea for the utah is not i can solo everything its a pack animal so the changes make sense to have you wearing down your prey instead of oh pounce and win ect.it just makes more sense they way they made the changes sure the numbers might not be perfect but with some adjustments it could turn out to be fun long fights with a pack

[golden coral]

Understandable. I agree there's no reward to remain alive right now, and that is a shame for a game where the entire point is to stay alive as long as you can and all that. Or at least die on your terms in this game. But yeah, to each their own, and I'm not trying to convince you to feel the way I do, just explaning my own outlook and how/why I enjoy the game. And if nothing else, with mods in the future, we can probably both get our preferred experience, or at least so I hope!

[primal dove]

There is a point where the player has to change to play such a "simple" creature. You can counter things so easy as a stego I dont even know why u should buff it. Ram ur head into a tree ,dont get baited and that´s just it imo.

[fathom obsidian]

im looking for a way to extract nuymbers from those images like fraction it or something but i dont know how to do it practically

[golden coral]

Because most of us disagree that a stego should have to "ram head into tree", especially vs very few utahs relative to the utah pack size limit.

[sonic flame]

the Ui isn't accurate enough to do that anyway

[fathom obsidian]

gotcha thanks

[sonic flame]

From what I'm checking, it's about right for 3.5

[safe anchor]

i agree its not fun gameplay needing to hug a rock to win

[primal dove]

and dont get baited it is 1 mechanic you have to learn but yea I agree with ur point of having to ram ur head into a tree against like 3 utahs

[thin mantle]

Mods won't change the game too drastically, but yeah they will have some effect I'm sure. I do enjoy talking to someone so civil in an Islecord balance discussion channel for what it's worth to you. Like it's genuinely a surprising occurrence to have an exchange of justifications and comparisons of concepts instead of just "you're wrong because I don't like that"

[sonic flame]

although the 'Current' version is lower than expected, but there was a bleed bug at the time

[fathom obsidian]

i have the new values from 1 h ago aswell

[sonic flame]

plus bleed is so god damn confusing that I barely even know

[fathom obsidian]

its the third image i wrote lastest hotfix on it

[sonic flame]

yeah the latest hotfix is closer to what I'd expect

[alpine plover]

Soad doing God's work

[sonic flame]

okay so basically here's the problem

oh

I'm an idiot I forgot about the movement modifiers

gotta do more math

[golden coral]

And yes, of course, don't get baited. I didn't mean to ignore that point, since you're correct in it. Though that of course goes for every playable. But I trust you understood my point too. As a stego main, I clearly have strong feelings on how the playable should feel and all. To me it's not just a specific matchup but the entire position in the ecosystem, and how it should handle this threat vs that threat. I know other stego mains disagree on how a stego should handle a rex for example.

[fathom obsidian]

i try, its guess work and very limited but its something to compare

[sonic flame]

Yeah okay nvm

those numbers are what I would expect

do keep in mind how god damn variable bleed is

[fathom obsidian]

are we gonna see another bump if we gonna fill the bleeder role or nah?

[fathom obsidian]

yeha i know, food water stam, running standing sitting all of that

[primal dove]

k ,very refreshing to see people who also accept other peoples opinions and not only care about their own species

[sonic flame]

Well the current increase was from double bleed compared to a normal attack, to triple a normal attack, or a 50% increase

so gotta see how that shakes out first, give it a month or so and see how Utah meta has shifted

[fathom obsidian]

i know but the results are still far from 3.5 bleed thats why i was asking

thanks tho

[sonic flame]

Well when you say bleeder what exactly do you mean

because in a way the current animal is a bleeder, as most of its damage against prey comes in the form of bleed

[fathom obsidian]

bleeder like before but with a substantial raw dmg nerf like now

[golden coral]

That depends on the mod I would say. Stat/mechanic changes can change the entire roster and how it works. Map changes can also cause changes in how you play to a certain degree. And now I miss the old maps...

Right back at you. It is a lot more pleasant to try and reason things through, and I think the more time we give the patch, the more likely to be reasonable we all are about it. Right now it's still a lot of "nerf" when you read the patch notes, and while people are testing, it also both goes only so far, and it takes at times to get used to the new things and how they work, and really feel if you're happy or unhappy.

For all I know, stego is too good now. It remains to be seen when I play for a while. I could very well end up not feeling happy (beyond my obvious issues with the critter), because it doesn't work out how I am imagining it.

[sonic flame]

that being said I'm not against an increase to its bleed, but before we had a problem where 1 or 2 pounces would cripple an animal

[fathom obsidian]

because right now its a bleeder but a worse one compared to before

[sonic flame]

3 Utahs that all get bucked off left the Stego with a "lethal" wound in 3.5

[fathom obsidian]

also remember that buck is insanely strong

[sonic flame]

Your blood would be so fucked even standing that you'd struggle to repel more Utahs

[fathom obsidian]

2 sec you have to release pounce, and that bleed wont to jack

[sonic flame]

Part of the issue honestly is that imo bucking is not handled as well as it could be

[alpine plover]

Bucking is overtuned now that I think about it

[fathom obsidian]

bucking is insane tbh, fortunately many player dont even know how to buck

[thin mantle]

Oh what I meant by that is that devs won't allow mods that change gameplay too drastically. Ofcourse that doesn't really mean mods will be inconsequential, but they have constantly said mods won't allow big changes.

[sonic flame]

Bucking is tuned to the 3.5 pounce

but now we are living with a nerfed pounce and bucking was unchanged

[fathom obsidian]

bucking in 3.5 felt even strong tbh

[sonic flame]

It was because of how strong pounce was as well

[thin mantle]

Most do as for now, plus stam is kinda an issue for utahs now more than ever since they can't hold their own physically.

[fathom obsidian]

ok

[sonic flame]

in 3.5, no bucking, raw damage would kill a Stego with 4 Utahs

[fathom obsidian]

raw dmg you mean no bleed right?

[sonic flame]

yep

[fathom obsidian]

gotcha, tbh deserved if he let 4 utah full pounce

[primal dove]

there should be a way for a pack to be able to bring down their victims stam faster and increase bucking stam cost maybe that would already help the utah massively

[sonic flame]

bleed would be crippling if you didn't outright die

[fathom obsidian]

how stupid is that there is counter play and more than bucking also

[golden coral]

I try at least. No promises that I always succeed. But I do want everyone to be able to enjoy the game and their chosen playable.

[fathom obsidian]

i mean the stego player ofc, sorry for my english lol im trying to get my point across

its not easy

[primal dove]

how about a claw attack for the utah which does less dmg than the normal bite but can be used faster and drains the enemies stam and deals bleed dmg?

[sonic flame]

Yeah Utah's biggest problem imo is that bleed really only comes into play over long periods of time

you have no way to force the target's stamina down for example

[thin mantle]

I can't imagine an attack that does less damage than utahs current bite xD But sure I guess that would help

[fathom obsidian]

keep utah like it is but give it similar to 3.5 bleed value

[sonic flame]

so without that raw damage, most animals can just ignore the pounce

[fathom obsidian]

keep raw values bad

i know you are not a dev, still english

[primal dove]

then buff utahs biteforce lol, please

[fathom obsidian]

is weak for me

[sonic flame]

The alternative is that bucking could probably see some nerfing to allow more bleed to be stacked

[golden coral]

That was.. one dev voicing his opinion on stuff. I'm not sure we should go too much by that honestly. Not as of yet at least. We also have all the server options they've said they want to offer so there is that.

[sonic flame]

but honestly bucking is again, a poorly done system

[fathom obsidian]

also that yes, buck too strong

[sonic flame]

Dealing stamina damage is an untapped market atm iirc

wait no, Deino does that with lunge

[thin mantle]

It was referenced as a consensus and it's been said by punch, filipe, and Kissen so far.

[golden coral]

Wait, really? Do you have any form of screenshot or other confirmation of that?

[primal dove]

ok how about: bucking does not deal stamina damage but their will be a bar below ur stam sign (kinda like the carno ram cooldown) which shows when u have to jump off and after u succesfully jumped off u have a cooldown of 7s so u cant spam pounce ur target

[thin mantle]

Plus if one dev states something that doesn't mean that we need all of the devs to state the same in order to take than seriously

[thin mantle]

No it was months back, near the launch of 3.5

[fathom obsidian]

too complex i think

[golden coral]

It kind of does. You remember the whole "roster split" with Kissen?

[fathom obsidian]

buck is not broken just need number tuning

[thin mantle]

Right, but then it was contradicted at a later date, no contradiction has been made regarding mods

[safe anchor]

yeah the numbers as of right now are way off what they need to be for bucking

[thin mantle]

Like I'd be right there with you if we had devs saying different things about mods, but so far we don't

[golden coral]

As of yet at least. But I've apparently missed some statements on that. I'll go look it up if I can.

[thin mantle]

You prolly won't find it, but they exist so feel free to look

It's prolly somewhere back in the mess of qa's that were done months back

[thin mantle]

But regardless, no contradictory statements exist regarding the effectiveness of mods, so even if one dev states something in regard to them we don't have a reason to not believe that until another dev says something contrary

[golden coral]

@sonic flameBleed should fill the stamina bar or something instead of being a secondary "health". Do something interesting with bleed you know :p

[sonic flame]

Bleed doing its own thing I think works better, personally I'd love to see CC attacks deplete Stamina

you're getting the wind knocked out of you and such

plus it's the only damage type with no lasting effects

[golden coral]

That would be interesting, and add to the CC aspect of it.

[sonic flame]

When you take a bleeding attack you bleed and regen is slowed, blunt damage gives you fractures and the various things there, while CC stuns you for a few seconds and then you're fine

[safe anchor]

getting knocked down and the tax of like X about of stamina for getting hit?

[swift beacon]

I mean it's the things that happen while you're stunned that's generally the main show

[primal dove]

maybe make bleed lose u stam at a certain threshhold, slowly tho not instant or in like a minute but also not too slow just try to balance it

[alpine plover]

So knockback damage
Or concussions?

[swift beacon]

Both?

[alpine plover]

Anyways I think heavy blunt damage is coming in tandem with fractures

[golden coral]

That's an idea too.

[sonic flame]

CC = knockdowns and staggers

hopefully eventually a third weaker stun or something

🤞

but probably not if Stego still can't tail swing

[primal dove]

or we could just be able to stack bleed with attacks and when we reach 100% the target dies or starts loosing health

[swift beacon]

Ideally you should be using stamina in fights and be much less effective when you have none

Which, from the looks of it, is the case

[primal dove]

damn this is actually nice a good pack exhausting it´s prey till it cant do anything

i´d enjoy that playstyle soooooooo much

[swift beacon]

Basically, ah, baiting or forcing the target to use stamina

[primal dove]

yea but now with better and more options

[swift beacon]

Pretty much yes

[safe anchor]

we are kinda close to that now really just needs more adjustments to it

[primal dove]

not just baiting tail slams or keep it on move but actively making it lose stam

[golden coral]

Well that's already a thing, except you lose blood and then die. But right now bleed does work like "health". But otherwise yeah, stack bleed, if it maxes out, you start losing health. Would be interesting too.

[primal dove]

i´m in love with that idea would be great to test it

[swift beacon]

Well, maxing out bleed is basically the same as removing all the HP

[thin mantle]

Sounds like legacy to me

[swift beacon]

Yesn't

Bleed and raw would both contribute to your HP going down in legacy

[golden coral]

Yes and no. I mean, if you run out of blood entirely, you die. It's just it's own bar right now, instead of your health value. And it has some added effects on stamina and health recover.

[swift beacon]

Now you either die of all your HP being lost, or all your blood being lost

[thin mantle]

Seems pretty good to me that way. What needs to be changed?

[golden coral]

I don't think it needs to change, more that we're thinking of how it could change if we were to do something different with it.

[swift beacon]

I don't think the system needs much changing

If anything, more clear pictures of how much bleed is done would be the best thing for determining that

[thin mantle]

Yeah, I'm just concerned with how complex people want to make all the mechanics in the game. It can become a frustrating amount of resource and time management that could possibly lead to the loop becoming more arduous than entertaining

[thin mantle]

Yeah clear values for stats would be a fantastic inclusion

[swift beacon]

As far as I understand, bleed is dealt as an "X per second per damage application," with duration being dependent on HP/Stam/Hunger/Thirst

[golden coral]

I would not be the right person to ask for an opinion on that, because I'm pretty sure I'm in favour of more complexity in general and all that. Like with diets, I'd probably like to do it more complex than it will be.

[alpine plover]

I wish we got clear explanations for mechanics as well
Especially ones existing and that people need to search and playtest to understand

[golden coral]

Yes. Please!

[alpine plover]

Same issue went on with diets

Basically a dev in general: x is looking really cool and fucks up your z in a way you'd be surprised

[thin mantle]

Yeah I've kinda gotten that feeling xD I'm more so speaking from a carnivore perspective because of how much more existential the playstyle can be. So making more "survival" mechanics specifically for herbivores is something I'm entirely in favor of

[alpine plover]

Rather than: This is how it works, this is an outline of this mechanic. What are it's specifics down to the stats

[thin mantle]

Yeah I wish explanations were given more up front

[golden coral]

You know me so well by now :p Yeah, carnis should have it easier on account of not being able to guarantee their prey. (though proper AI should help so you at least don't starve cause no one decided to be in that part of the map). But herbis should be the ones with the more interesting requirements. But overall I'm in favour of complexity and lots of things to do. It's a survival game, I should be worried at all times, the whole "I don't have enough time/energy to do everything, what do I do and in what order. When and where is the best time to do something".

[thin mantle]

Yeah and for players that want a very stressful time surviving should have specific dinos to provide that experience, and that's why I'm hoping that aspect becomes so much more dino specific instead of a generality. For example, deino and rexes and brachi's playstyle could be less stressful than say a troodon or dryo on a minute by minute basis. An advantage of growing to a certain sized animal with lower travel capacity could be a less arduous process of maintenance. Now ofcourse that doesn't need to be true for all large dinos, that would just be the same issue on a smaller scale. In fact ptera is a great example, ptera is a pretty low maintenance/low anxiety animal to play, and I think it should remain that way generally speaking.

Oh man it do be long message hour

[swift beacon]

I'd say rather than being less punishing per say, the carnivores should be a bit easier to maintain neutral diet than herbivores

[thin mantle]

Yes

[swift beacon]

By all means, if they don't meet their diet they don't meet their diet and should reap those consequences

[golden coral]

That I can agree with, at least partially. I do think everything should have a struggle, since no matter what you play, you are here to survive. But obviously it should be a lot easier to meet your needs as a dryo than as a brachio, as a utah than a rex. But it can also vary in what requirements there are, even if the struggle is similar overall. Ptera can be a more chill animal, but at the end of the day, I would still like to feel that my skill and smarts rewards me over someone who isn't as good or knowledgable and all that. And at no point should it be easy enough to survive that you can just play halfheartedly. I'd be more inclined to make the maintenance more "chill" to make it fit a more relaxed playstyle.

And yes, we're having a proper debate here, something quite rare I'm sure!

[thin mantle]

Of course, but availability and complexity are what I'm more so concerned about. Like rex growing up should have an absurdly difficult diet to maintain, but once it makes it to adult it should still have a relatively difficult diet to maintain, but it's necessity to travel the map should be lower to compensate for it's lack of mobility.

[swift beacon]

But with a relatively wide array of neutral diet and a few odd "ideal" diet choices, AI spawns should be able to keep the average player on normal track for growth and stats

[thin mantle]

Unfortunately that is entirely dependent on how often ai is, which is something I wish we knew more about

[swift beacon]

Most players should be maintaining 50-75% hunger anyhow

[golden coral]

Changing diets and requirements with changes in growth please and thank you. Juvie rexes hunt in a certain way and eat a certain thing, subs do something else, and then adults do a third thing.

[swift beacon]

The ones that can secure enough resources for full 100% hunger should have no trouble keeping their diet optimal

And, well, if they are, then that's none of my business

[golden coral]

And I agree with Shot, being full on food, water, shelter, whatever you need should be rare and be a job well done. You should preferably always have something you'd need or at least want to do to make it all just a little better and increase your chance to survive.

[thin mantle]

Right, if everything was equally as difficult to grow and maintain then whats the point of having different dinos with different play styles? Everything should have requirements but not all requirements should demand the same effort. Like something I'd be in favor of is having the dinos with slower movement speed have less travel dependent dietary needs, this keeps your encounters with incredibly powerful yet slow predators more predictable and allows you to plan accordingly as a faster more agile dino, whilst still making apex herbi or carni gameplay possible to enjoy.

[thin mantle]

Also I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but dietary changes based on age is practically mandatory xD

[golden coral]

That makes sense. If you're a slow stego, you're obviously not good at doing something a fast dryo can do. So that's fine by me. It's more so that I want even the "easiest" things to still feel like they have to work to survive. Why I'm against growth times being too short, since I think you should have to deal with growing up. And yes, dietary changes in growth, and change in what you compete with, should be a given. I want to see a trike grow up and challenge ava, diablo, styraco, and so on in order as it grows.

[swift beacon]

absolutely. if your diet is exclusively Trikes throughout your growth but you can only hunt them when adult if you're also an adult then you're kinda fucked as a kid

[dawn falcon]

Curious

[swift beacon]

also means you need to move around while nesting to give everyone the proper diet

[thin mantle]

Well styraco isn't coming to the game as far as I've been informed, but regardless yes. Although I think your degree of struggle should somewhat match your capabilities. For example, I want dryos to HAVE dietary requirements but they should be incredibly simple, and dryos growth time of 45 minutes seems prefect, I cannot imagine it being any longer than that due to what your potential interaction with the world is. The way I see it: The more time investment you put in the greater reward you should get, that's kinda echoed by the elder system but it should also apply to the dinos in their base forms as well. A dryo shouldn't take an hour and a half to grow, you are slower, deal less damage, and get one or two shot by everything attempting to kill you. If it was challenging to grow a dryo I would consider that a ton of wasted effort and would probably never play that animal again because of the poor tradeoff. Now if I was playing an allo, I would expect it to take 3.5 hours to grow because of how strong you become and how optimized you are. You become incredibly utilitarian when you reach an adult mid tier and that should merit a rather demanding maintenance cycle, although not the most difficult because... well.... they're just allos.

[dawn falcon]

How much damage does an adult Carno deal

200N?

[swift beacon]

uhhh

some

[thin mantle]

200

[dawn falcon]

Okay thanks

[thin mantle]

It got reduced by 150

[swift beacon]

haven't gotten around to growing one myself

currently been working my way up the size list

[thin mantle]

I grew a couple over the course of the last couple days, carno is pretty op now ngl

[dawn falcon]

I’m going to type up a balance feedback to help Utah

Be on the lookout

[swift beacon]

sounds festive

[thin mantle]

Please do, utah needs support

[swift beacon]

send it to Brazil

[thin mantle]

Oh Erik you're welcome for the wall 😉

I'm also so sorry ;-;

[dawn falcon]

This one isn’t going to include an Hp increase, and I’ll explain why in the feedback

[swift beacon]

I've been doing my own balance proposals for a while in all fairness

[dawn falcon]

This’ll also include nerfs for other dinos aswell

carno charge

^

Hate it

[swift beacon]

Carno charge is an interesting case

[thin mantle]

Considering they have more matchups that include Utahs getting one shot than them not being, I'd be in support of this to a degree

[swift beacon]

instantly killing Utah is both alarming but extremely gratifying

[thin mantle]

True, although a waste of an hour and a half

[swift beacon]

well, if you're getting hit by the charge it's almost assuredly your own fault

[golden coral]

Well, it is my hope that even a dryo gets fun and interesting gameplay, and I've seen a good few ideas thrown around on what it can do. But you're not wrong. (not sure on the styraco, don't we have such a model or am I thinking of some other ceratopsid?). I do think about 45 min with perfect diet is fine, and longer otherwise, perhaps 1.30 on average. It's still rather fast in my eyes at least., but of course, what long/short and "challenging" means is also a bit relative here. But I do clearly prefer more "hardcore" in general, that much I think should be clear. And I don't know about allo, I don't think it'll be a generalist again, but more specialized too.

[swift beacon]

since it's a very... linear attack

it's very exclusively an ambush tool

[golden coral]

I certainly do not mind. Perhaps we could work a bit on formatting, but I enjoy this. You're great to talk to, even if we clearly disagree on things here. But that's to be expected, and if we didn't, then we'd have nothing to talk about ;)

[swift beacon]

from what I've heard, Carno's being moved from a "small oppressor" to a "pseudo-mid hunter"

[golden coral]

Then the matchup with utah has to change, right?

[swift beacon]

from what I can tell, it's doing much better defensively than offensively

main problem being that the playerbase hasn't adapted to go evasive, and is still trying to take it on in a fight

if you see the Carno coming it fucked up

use that opportunity to use its lack of agility against it and go for cover

[thin mantle]

Oh you and me wildly disagree on dryo xD I'd make dryo as fast or 2 kmh faster than utahs so that they can actually escape them, give them heaps of stamina like they should have (not galli tier but you get the picture) and make their perfect diet grow time around 30 minutes whilst increasing their poor diet grow time to 1.3 hrs. This sounds like an overtune but dryos only mechanism for staying alive rn is running away, and it can't really do that too well since it's slower than utah and has inertia (for some reason, although inertia was just a mistake regardless). It needs burrowing to remain relevant, but at that point it would need to rely less on travel to maintain a proper diet since it's the only dino capable of constructing a "compound" so to speak. Growing a dryo is not very rewarding which is why I keep arguing it needs to keep a low growth time to remain relevant, otherwise people won't play it because of the poor tradeoff.

[swift beacon]

Dryo equalling Utah speed is fine

[thin mantle]

Also feel free to respond to all this but I'll brb in like 5-10 minutes to eat

[swift beacon]

if you're getting ambushed by a Utah then they did everything right and should be able to handle you pretty well

hell, Dryo survived perfectly fine even when it was 2 km/h slower back between updates 2 and 3

[hollow canyon]

Dryo could run away from a Utah even when it was slower than one. It doesn't need to be faster. If it's made faster it only incentivises people to play it offensively since they know they can always get away from any threat that they get themselves into.

[thin mantle]

Oh absolutely, I can't just be surrounded by "yes men" plus this is a fantastic thought excersise. And I get to talk statistics and balance so I'm all for it >:D

[swift beacon]

hell yeah, balance debates

[thin mantle]

That's why it's damage was nerfed into the core of the earth, it can't be played offensively anymore, it physically cannot deal the damage necessary to be a threat

[swift beacon]

right, even so it's still able to survive well while slower

so being equal to speed but superior in stamina means that the Dryos that die would've been dead even if they were faster

[golden coral]

Yeah, that's a clear no. The stamina is fine, but I want to fix the dodge. Dryo should dodge, juke, bounce, and then outstamina the utah. Not just run like a galli, that's.. well, galli! And yeah, 30 min is okay, but.. eh, I think another 15 min or so would be better than not! Inertia goes for all yes, and I think it needs to be adjusted for them all as well. No, no burrows for dryo, that was a mistake. Give it sentry posts instead, and let it occupy burrows from others if neccesary. We also got other smaller things that can burrow better and have more use of it I think. Though dryo meerkat manor is a thing, I know dryo players who play like that, so you do have some support for those sort of ideas. But growing a dryo should be rewarding, so we should work on making it so I think.

[swift beacon]

Dryo burrows are... questionable, given its stature and build

[scarlet onyx]

What do yall thing about carno getting 1-tapped by stego headshot now? Carno used to get left at 1% hp from a headshot, it felt fine because they wouldnt join the fight again since they could die from one stego bite. I don't get why stegos had a hard time with carno?

[golden coral]

Just so! And yes, talking balance, and not just stats but rather vision for an animal is great. I believe that is the start for any proper balancing, to agree on what the animal should be and not be. So this is just fine!

[swift beacon]

well, Carno should win a stupid prize for running into a wall of spikes

[golden coral]

Me and Fluff keeping the channel alive. Though I think we're a little off-topic by now. But hopefully no-one minds too much.

[swift beacon]

and I say this as someone who sold my soul in order to obtain as much speed as possible

[scarlet onyx]

there's a different between running into spikes and playing perfect tail baiting while still getting headshotted from the hitreg

[thin mantle]

I don't see the issue of burrows, if it acts like a terrain change rather than some arbitrary teleportation gate into an inaccessible underground bubble like it is in legacy it would work. What is the issue with it? It seems like a really neat nesting idea for dryos

[frosty heron]

Dumb imo, reason enought for Carnos to not to even try on a Stego, Stego turn faster they will murder you for sure

[hollow canyon]

Not an issue - Carno isn't meant to be hunting Stego so it dying to a one attack from it if the Stego lands a headshot isn't at all surprising.

[swift beacon]

that's a hitreg issue more than a damage issue

if you're wanting to hunt Stegos, play Utah

grab some friends, have a barbecue over it

[golden coral]

I think it's fine, but I don't know how easy it is to land a headshot. But as you said, they would be out even earlier, now it's just a done deal. And it wasn't because of lack of damage a stego would struggle, rather the other issues with turning, attacks, and all that.

[frosty heron]

Lol nope, just don't play anything at all

[golden coral]

You should go look at general feedback for dryo teleporting btw!

[swift beacon]

so, the "counter-meta" to Carnos is Stegos and Deinos

[dawn falcon]

It’s ready

[swift beacon]

the "counter-meta" to Stegos and Deinos is Utahs, since Deinos can't reliably sustain off of slowly killing off Utahs, and Stegos are able to be worn down by coordinated groups of Utahs

[scarlet onyx]

Had to mute Shot, talk about the most counter-argumentive hungry blabmouth that adds nothing to the convo other than disagreeing with everything everyone says.

[thin mantle]

Hmm? Wait but what does that have to do with dryo burrows. It would just be a terrain change not a different level.

[swift beacon]

interesting take. I mostly just spread my thoughts across multiple messages because that's how works my thinks but you do you.

[golden coral]

You'll see!

[thin mantle]

D:

Ok brb I need to eat rq

[hollow canyon]

I just have to point out that if you get hit by a headshot from a Stego then that doesn't seem like "playing perfectly".

[swift beacon]

he's arguing that hitreg was a factor in getting hit

which, while fair, is a different issue than the damage

[hollow canyon]

I've never gotten hit by a headshot as a Carno even while going for the thagomizer-bites so idk about that.

[swift beacon]

I've only ever been in melee range of a Stego as Carno once, and that was a body-shot into a second body-shot after I careened into its side while going for the nearby juvie

after that, figured I'd rather not tango with the 6-ton traffic accident waiting to happen

[dawn falcon]

So any problems with the feedback

?

[swift beacon]

wouldn't know, is it in the actual feedback channel?

[oak wind]

Uthz bite buff.

Tbh I don't feel like it is necessary

[swift beacon]

or did it get drowned out by all the words flying around

[dawn falcon]

Yes

[swift beacon]

👍 ok cool gonna read it rq

[golden coral]

@dawn falconNot sure on increasing the bite. Inertia fix is a given, for not just utah. I would not be opposed to making the carno charge CC, like teno tailslam. But I think fix, or get used to the movement is the first key here. Then we'll see about if health is needed or not. And with better movement, we'll also see if bite is needed, or if pounce works out just fine.

[swift beacon]

bite buff to 75 seems like a bit much given the parameters, lowering charge damage is... uncertain? not sure what the current path of Carno is going to be

you should consider the mirror match of Utah into Utah for a gauge of how well Utah deals with other assets roughly its size

[dawn falcon]

Yeah but it just seems like, 32 body shots to take out a carno is an absurd amount. Like, I’m not saying it should be RELYING on biting, but it should atleast have that option in case it really has to defend itself quickly while also trying to keep it from healing its bleed.

[swift beacon]

well, again, if you're facing a Carno the move as Utah should be to "get the fuck out of there" rather than trying to brawl with it

[dawn falcon]

I honestly have no idea what’s going to happen, but to me, it’s just.. why is the bite there if it can just pin smaller creatures and pounce them which seems to be more efficient?

[swift beacon]

because if you miss they either fuck you up or get away

[dawn falcon]

Like I want bite to have some sort of use, Yknow

Instead of it being “oh, this guy bit me huh. Shit tickled gg no re”

[swift beacon]

so, pounce has the "missing" animation where you're taking a second to collect yourself after eating dirt, yeah?

[hallow spire]

the other day i pounced a carno that was smaller than me note that i had full stam and it survived it and had to get 3 more bites to kill it xD

[dawn falcon]

Correct

[swift beacon]

in that time, why would the Dryo or Pachy or whatever just stand there and wait for you to get up to try again?

[dawn falcon]

I’m talking about like in case you did pull off a pounce against let’s say a carno or a teno, and it decides “YOU AINT FUCKING RUNNING” and tries to run you down, so you dodge it (with better turning) and bite back while proceeding to run.

[swift beacon]

right, but you also shouldn't be fighting them alone

[dawn falcon]

I feel like if it got better biteforce, it could atleast be a bit of damage dealt

[dawn falcon]

Well even in packs, they could still try to run you down

[golden coral]

To be fair, the pounce miss shouldn't be a stun. Fix the slotting, and just make it cost a bit of stam instead if you miss, but let the utah keep going.

It's only fine cause pounce slotting is a thing

[thin mantle]

Ok what did I miss, oh we're back to utah balancing

[swift beacon]

right, and in doing so they leave themselves totally open to getting pounced by your friends

[dawn falcon]

@thin mantle the feedback is posted

[golden coral]

Not really. At least I'm hopefully passing on that for now. Too tired for it. Did you find the feedback I meant? :p

[hallow spire]

😄

[thin mantle]

Oh interesting >:)

[frosty heron]

Seems like increasing Utah damage considering it does no damage, is too much

[thin mantle]

wait give me a minute, It'll take some scrolling

[swift beacon]

so, if a Tenonto or Carno is focusing on you, they aren't focusing on not keeping their flanks protected from your buddies

[thin mantle]

Oh no it should, bite doesn't have a use anymore, or at least until smaller dinos are added

[swift beacon]

I have trepidations about the bite being increased, but I can be persuaded for a minor buff. main issue stems from 55 to 75 not being a very minor buff