balance-feedback-discussion

[oak wind]

Taking hours for large preys I'm designed for

Yes

That's decent

6 Utahs taking down a Para must be around that.

[ebon kraken]

I enjoy long fights personally.

[oak wind]

Full adult Para ofc.

[indigo vigil]

4, id say yeah

6, 25 - 20

[oak wind]

Para is still big tbh.

[true ginkgo]

imo should be 2-3 utahs for something like a carno or tenoto. 4-6 for an animal like an allo or maia. And over 6 for things like acro and stego.

[indigo vigil]

it indeed is

[winged sierra]

long fights are far more enjoyable than short fights for me, there's much more time to be skilful and assess a situation rather than run in spamming bite until either party dies

[indigo vigil]

mmeeeeh, i wouldnt say 6 for allo or maia

[primal dove]

4-6 for an allo and maia?!

[indigo vigil]

3 id say

if they arent too good

[compact veldt]

i think 7

[primal dove]

carno is like low mid tier allo is mid tier and maia counts as prey

[indigo vigil]

yap

[primal dove]

legit a horse

[indigo vigil]

well carno not so low

[primal dove]

made to run and not to fight

[indigo vigil]

its pretty up there

but bite wise, eh

shouldnt be as it is rn Id say with the new way of fighting

[true ginkgo]

Maia should struggle to kill, but be hard to wear down.

[primal dove]

ok carno is also mid tier lets say

bc of it´s speed

[ebon kraken]

Legacy’s issue was fights ended so quickly. Evrima is going for longer more skill based fights. Again dysnc and rubberbanding make that difficult

[indigo vigil]

should be less dmg on stuff overall, dodging should be more needed in every fight

not just who can click who faster

[abstract dawn]

Idea for hadrosaurs

[true ginkgo]

Carno is like psuedo mid....

aka still stronger than a utah

[oak wind]

I mean

Allo fucks up Utah hard

There isn't a lot of space on it

Pounce isn't efficient

They get ride of Utahs quick

[indigo vigil]

realistically its good, gameplay wise you are just bullying a class into getting deleted

[oak wind]

Utahs be like "Oh shit"

[primal dove]

if 2 ppl can pounce it that would already be pog

[oak wind]

2 must

But it won't be efficient on Allo at all

[primal dove]

bc of what

[true ginkgo]

Allo is an almost 3 ton mass of teeth and pain. It's 'the' mid tier essentially.

[ebon kraken]

Utahs will also be more fun as more small tiers are added. Like pachy.

[oak wind]

Allo will then look at them and say "Die scums"

Because Utah pounce is an endurance tool

[solemn sequoia]

yeah and 8 utahs in 3.6 tones of mass, they'd pin the allo down

if they all got on it

[oak wind]

So you need to be able to get the thing to stay here and do relay '

[golden coral]

If it's 2-4 utahs for teno/carno, then 4-6 utahs for maia/allo/"mid", and then 6-8 utahs for the large animals. That seems reasonable enough?

[alpine plover]

QA out here like: Let's get more Hypsi's into the game lmao

[solemn sequoia]

if they gave utah its actuall weight of 500 kilos then it'd be 4 tones

[oak wind]

So if you can't be a lot on the animal. It is some kind of worthless and more difficult than on large animals.

[primal dove]

i just hate how the pounce work how about: pounce does instant bleed damage

[winged sierra]

sounds fine to me

[golden coral]

So you get some sort of "increased number = increased prey size"

[oak wind]

Yeah

[primal dove]

so like u get pounced and u already have lost a "fine" amount of blood

[solemn sequoia]

so does biting

[oak wind]

That's why hunting really large animals as Utah with a bleeding too is efficient

[primal dove]

y

[oak wind]

Mediums being rather bad ideas.

[golden coral]

We do need more hypsis. Treehouses when?!

[oak wind]

Smalls are pinned for most.

Similar sized are though but good fights.

[compact veldt]

more hypsi's yay

[primal dove]

why tho? they are like sub adult rexes for them 3 utahs should def. be scared of an allo but the allo shouldnt just completely destroy them

[true ginkgo]

irl utah was a lot bulkier and physically larger.

If utah goes to its proper weight, it should have a slight physical upsize.

[ebon kraken]

I don’t think anyone wants Utahs to not be able to kill anything as a pack. So not sure what the argument is about?

[dawn falcon]

It gets harder to hunt something the farther down the tier you go

[true ginkgo]

We basically don't have utah, we have dakota.

[dawn falcon]

For instance, an apex is easier to hunt than a mid-tier, and a mid-tier is easier to hunt than a small-tier.

[alpine plover]

Honestly fucking down to play Hypsi when they can treeclimb

[primal dove]

but it still should be possible, an allo should not just be able to play with the utahs like puppets

[alpine plover]

Laughing at apexes below, spitting at passerby's

[oak wind]

Argument is that Utah is good for way larger preys by endurance hunting, bad at mediums and good for similar sized animals.

[primal dove]

and the utahs shouldnt be able to just fuck around with an allo too

[dawn falcon]

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it’s a lot harder than an apex.

[primal dove]

hmm ok im fine with that

[ebon kraken]

I would agree

[golden coral]

If we get proper arboreal gameplay with interesting mechanics and all that, as you've pointed out, then I could see myself testing it out at the very least. I am after all looking forward to herrera very much.

[primal dove]

if utah gets such a buff i´d be more than happy

struggling with mid tier but being able to take down big things

fuck yeah that´d be sick

[swift beacon]

Basically Utah would do mostly bleed with pounce

[primal dove]

yes

[wide cosmos]

Patchy will one shot utahs...

[swift beacon]

Not sure that one's true

[dawn falcon]

No

[solemn sequoia]

if only pounce had any semblance of use with bucking

[primal dove]

ambush the apex while it´s sitting/drinking/eating and then just trying to keep the bleed on

[ebon kraken]

No it doesn’t

[dawn falcon]

Pachy was shown to 2 shot Utah’s, not one shot.

[golden coral]

@dawn falconBasically, the larger the prey, slower, and with possibly more pounce slots, the better the target for a utah pack. The lower you go, the less use the rest of your pack is, assuming you got a full one, and the more dangerous the prey is because it's approaching your size and thus your speed and agility. Did I get it sort of right?

[compact veldt]

submitting that now

[swift beacon]

Bucking is the response to pounce

[primal dove]

well it stuns tho so...

[abstract dawn]

Thanks for the idea!

[solemn sequoia]

yeah, and also completely shuts it down rn

[dawn falcon]

Yep

[solemn sequoia]

so can't do any real damage or bleed

[swift beacon]

People need to adjust to playing the long game to answer the answer

[indigo vigil]

and so with that, pounce useless

[solemn sequoia]

would work if people didn't heal quickly

[indigo vigil]

#DeleteUtahAlreadySoUtahMainsCanRest

[primal dove]

that´s the utah i would be happy with

[fathom obsidian]

i think buck is too strong specially now that pounce bleed got giga nerfed

[compact veldt]

ok, on it

[swift beacon]

Ah, but people dont heal bleed instantly

[golden coral]

Sounds decent to me. With amends for the kind of prey you're targetting as well of course, like my earlier prey list.

[indigo vigil]

finally

[solemn sequoia]

no but wallowing does exist

[swift beacon]

If you're keeping them in a state of bleed they will go down

[alpine plover]

Lmao people do not like Utah

[golden coral]

Add my prey list to it, and we're set. I do believe that just going by size and not taking the critter itself into account is a mistake for good balance and interesting interactions.

[wide cosmos]

Thats assuming youll live that long

[swift beacon]

Wallowing can't prevent Utahs from biting you

[solemn sequoia]

yeah, that means you need to constantly be fighting it, something utahs can't do when they are a 2 to 1 shot

[swift beacon]

High risk, high reward

[indigo vigil]

they still salt from those assrides

[primal dove]

uhm could u sent the list pls? Haven´t seen it yet,very interested

[solemn sequoia]

assuming your prey doesn't run away like carno or has 360 coverage like teno

[swift beacon]

Assuming this, yes

[solemn sequoia]

which they do ALL THE TIME

[primal dove]

a glasscannon basically, high damage potential low health and defense tho

[swift beacon]

At that size you're not as vulnerable to most basic attacks

[solemn sequoia]

their damage is pathetic now

[primal dove]

with the pounce?

[indigo vigil]

EVERYTHING

[ebon kraken]

Alt bite is still high damage. Pounce also

[solemn sequoia]

yeah even with a full stam pounce

[indigo vigil]

3% is high to you?

[dawn falcon]

Pounce bleed is being buffed though

[swift beacon]

You need to think in terms of blood, not raw

[golden coral]

In order from easiest to hardest. Hadrosaurs (teno being slightly harder due to vicious fighting), ceratopsids, and bipedal carnivores, including rex and giga. Spino/sucho, because of water advantage. Stego, because of it's anti-flank proper behaviour. And then anky, because armor and slight anti-flank with the tail.
There you go, prey list for utahs.

[solemn sequoia]

all alt bites take double digets to take down

utah dies in 1 or 2

[wide cosmos]

Where does it say its getting buffed?

[swift beacon]

I don't recall, someone had images of before/after for pounce right

[golden coral]

@primal doveThen you adjust that for sizes, as well. So it's a matter of both choosing the proper size, and the proper prey.

[swift beacon]

Was it Altercard?

[indigo vigil]

We can give u some rn

what type u want

[fathom obsidian]

i wish this was true

[primal dove]

ok guys idea for the pounce: how about after a pounce u instantly lose an amount of blood depending on the time you´ve pounced

[golden coral]

Soad I think?

[scarlet onyx]

With how both of them are balanced now I'd run away from either, 0 mistakes left to make as utah that other dinos can make 10x over and still live

[indigo vigil]

I would instead say for a pounce, the more utahs on the prey , the harder is it to buck

[golden coral]

That's a thing I think?

It takes more stamina to buck/drains less from utah stamina if you got more on the target

[oak wind]

That's what you do when you meet a Carno or see one.

[fathom obsidian]

I made a Doc, dunno if you are referring to that

[indigo vigil]

If theres like 4 on a teno, pin, carno maybe 5 somehow, steg 6

but steg not fully pinned

[golden coral]

Not sure if it's bucking demanding more or draining less from a utah, but there is a difference there.

[oak wind]

Tenonto fights it.

[alpine plover]

I was fine with them not being able to tail ride
I was fine with pounce being counterable by trees/water/terrain
Even with missing a pounce being a death sentence
Even with bucking throwing me off in seconds
But there comes a point where it just becomes contempt from a balancing pov
It has low hp, and was already a considerable low biteforce when compared to it's competitors
With the pounce being less effective as it is, and the health and damage pool being reduced so small
It's essentially becoming an obselete pick as so many issues and counterplay is so present unlike with playables like Carno or Teno
Utahs being mowed down even in large numbers is not a sight you should be seeing from a "pack hunting playable"

[indigo vigil]

but to the point its slow, cannot lift all that weight on its sides

[oak wind]

Stego destroys it

Deino drown it or fight it.

[indigo vigil]

correction, 1 taps it

[oak wind]

Utah, Dryo, Hypsi all flee Carno.

Carno doesn't one shot it with 500 damages

[indigo vigil]

Nacen, u better copy and paste that shit into balance feedback

[primal dove]

u could fight carnos before this hotfix but now u actually have to flee since u arent able to deal any damage or bleed if it just bucks

[swift beacon]

Yeah, that, can you send again? Not sure I wanna scroll all the way back.

[ebon kraken]

Bleed is getting buffed from pounce as well.

[solemn sequoia]

1 utah, I can agree, but 2 should be where the odds even out

[oak wind]

Wait for Utah to thrive again with Para being added, also Pachy and similar sized preys.

You'll see that Utah will be good.

[alpine plover]

Reminder, it's not a Herrara nor a Beipi having exclusive niches or areas to fall back too
It's not going to burrow at least there's not plans for it
It needs proficiency in a niche and it cannot exist as it is as more contesting larger predators will continue being added to the game

[fathom obsidian]

ye sure https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

[dawn falcon]

Filipe confirmed it in isle discussion

[golden coral]

We need a proper balance vision, a proper balance team, and the ability to change and/or add and remove mechanics to make things work as they should.

[swift beacon]

Try 3 or 4

[oak wind]

2 Utahs flee a Carno.

Even in legacy they did.

[true ginkgo]

Utah should definitely be fleeing carno. The animal over 3x heavier with a far longer grow time.

[dawn falcon]

^

[fathom obsidian]

@alpine plover spot on, legendary feedback

[primal dove]

cowards

[indigo vigil]

yeah current ones are shit, the old ones I liked, hell maybe the old ones could use less dmg but not drown it so much

[alpine plover]

With some of the half serious comments of QA team, not too impressed so far

[dawn falcon]

Carno specializes in taking down rats, no matter the amount of pack size a Utah has.. unless it’s the absurd megapacks.
Though Utah’s could infact take a carno down with 6-8

[oak wind]

If they fought they were destroyed.

I assure you Hen I played Carno.

[solemn sequoia]

utah specialises in taking down bigger dinos

[dawn falcon]

When something specializes in small game hunting, meaning Utah, shits gonna get real

[golden coral]

Why do you think I want a proper balance vision and a team to enforce said vision properly?! I've argued for this before, it.. didn't end as well as it could have for me. :p

[primal dove]

u never know if u dont try

[indigo vigil]

Bc the dev team throws them into the trash lol

[wide cosmos]

A solo carno can mow down a pack now....

[alpine plover]

Yeah, no one is really arguing that Utah shouldn't have bad matchups
Especially since Carno is geared towards small tiers
Though a lot of the changes are wayyyyy too much

[primal dove]

i´d rather learn a bad matchup instead of always running away

[dawn falcon]

Like? I want to hear your opinion

[golden coral]

Shouldn't need more than 3-4 utahs to make a carno concerned?

[raw sparrow]

keep utah as it is but buff its pounce bleed

[dawn falcon]

Yeah Yknow what that was me underestimating Utah’s. It should definitely be that number Erik

[primal dove]

you should be mindful with 3 , 2 if they are r e a l l y good

[golden coral]

Sometimes the only viable option is to run away :p

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

No shame in living to fight another day you know!

[wide cosmos]

Its need some of its HP back, its suppose to be attrition hunter, how can you do that when you die in one click !

[swift beacon]

Thanks. So, from the looks of it accounting for Stego HP increase, Utah's doing slightly less bleed. Since bleed lasts longer based on the amount of stamina, health, food, and water in the victim's system though, I think it's probably about 8 Utahs' worth of pounce cycling if you play your cards right and get Stego to keep wasting stamina trying to hit Utahs that properly bait attacks

[oak wind]

Running away is a tactic that works.

Fight isn't the only option.

Try to survive.

[golden coral]

Sounds okay to me honestly. 2 if they're very coordinated and the carno isn't. 3 on average, 4 should absolutely make a carno hesistate, unless they're.. just milling around and the carno has the surprise and all that.

[oak wind]

Don't fight the first thing you see.

[indigo vigil]

they would do that if their stam wasnt the worst in the game

[raw sparrow]

@wide cosmos you have to be careful like in irl

[fathom obsidian]

yeah kinda, ofc that test is limited but we were only 2 testing so thats what i got

[dawn falcon]

No way. That’s what made Utah overtuned in the first place

[oak wind]

Isn't Carno's worse?

[swift beacon]

The matchup can and should change significantly once Stego gets a proper swing, and hopefully at that point there will be more adequate targets for Utah than... the exact opposite kind of target they should go for

[dawn falcon]

Weight equals health now, so that means you have to increase Utah’s weight, which could lead to pouncing and pinning problems.

[oak wind]

Carno having worse stamina, worse turn and accel atm?

[dawn falcon]

^ which is how it should be

Cheetah Carno get

[raw sparrow]

buff their bleed and see how that works

[dawn falcon]

Fte*

Ftw ffs

[dawn falcon]

It’s getting buffed

[ebon kraken]

Devs confirmed a pounce bleed buff.

[swift beacon]

Carno likely will have trouble catching Utahs if they don't press the offense

[primal dove]

about the worse turn: the alt bite has go a fat buff

[primal dove]

SOURCE PLS

[wide cosmos]

IRL? what are you even saying, careful? yea mean just run away from anything? because in order to hunt as a pack you need to engage, what the point if you get one shoted while you try?

[raw sparrow]

ok g ood, then utah looks fine

[alpine plover]

Getting back to this
QA is out of touch recently
A specific balancing team engaging within the community is actually a good idea
Developers have had "Pro Teams" effectively help design balance specifically with feedback and the results have mostly been positive

[fathom obsidian]

@swift beacon if you take a look at the carno compare, you will see pounce dealing less dmg and bleeding and also carno got a health nerf

[golden coral]

@primal doveKeep in mind this doesn't mean one side will win or not. The carno could run away, so could the utahs. It's just that if a solo carno sees three utahs, it shouldn't just go "Charge", it should be "Okay, how do I take them out before they can retaliate" you know :p

[dawn falcon]

It’s kinda like a ticking time bomb yeah

[golden coral]

A bit of.. planning and thinking before just starting a fight would be nice to see

[dawn falcon]

Gotta plan it out quick or else they’ll already have planned out your funeral

[golden coral]

Not just run up to something and start fighting or running around

[primal dove]

yea, you´ve definitely got a point there

[swift beacon]

Ok, so bleed's been halved, roughly

[dawn falcon]

And getting buffed so

We’ll see

[fathom obsidian]

exaclty damage too

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/well-see-what-happens-well-see-well-see-about-that-maybe-perhaps-gif-15929390

[swift beacon]

I'd say it shouldn't do more than a third

And absolutely should do more bleed than raw

[fathom obsidian]

im not too worried, im worried for the QA responses, thats it

[alpine plover]

Also, the nerfs to bleed also directly effect the pounce ability as well

[raw sparrow]

its getting fixed...

[alpine plover]

Big agree as well

[solemn sequoia]

is it thoguh?

[fathom obsidian]

dont worry ill compare as soon as it gets bumped up

[dawn falcon]

Go read Filipe response and find out

[golden coral]

Not sure what you're talking about with the "pro teams" thing? Did I miss something? I don't know how good or bad job QA does, I just don't think they have the time and ability to properly test everything. As such we need a balance team doing just that, so they can focus on making the game work and that things do what they should.

I don't know if community should or should not have a say, I believe the devs need to have a clear vision. Just like they should have a clear vision on what the game is meant to be and what experience they're trying to create, they need a clear vision on balance and what experience every playable should give.

[indigo vigil]

they never said anything about doing any good for utahs

[fathom obsidian]

also you guys are free to link it everywhere and give me feedback to make it better

[indigo vigil]

As a wise man said

[dawn falcon]

Bleed being buff.. is doing good for Utah’s?

[golden coral]

Aye!

[indigo vigil]

Where buff?...

[dawn falcon]

Hold on

[fathom obsidian]

depends on how much they will buff it

[ebon kraken]

In isle discussion they said soon it would be buffed

[golden coral]

@indigo vigilFilipe did mention bleed being buffed. And that they're still working on the dismount to make it better.

[dawn falcon]

You’re welcome

[golden coral]

There we go!

[compact veldt]

fake news

[indigo vigil]

Ehh but still on this update where it shouldve been added it didnt quite do anything..

[fathom obsidian]

@alpine plover can i link you somethig in dms??

[indigo vigil]

plus, bucking

[golden coral]

The dismount is better than it used to be, right?

[indigo vigil]

it nulls it down

[fathom obsidian]

yes much better

[dawn falcon]

So then go tell Filipe that bucking is fucked lol

When he comes in

[indigo vigil]

on stuff that isnt a problem yeah, but like the steg, yeah it didnt get fixed

[golden coral]

Alright, so at least it's being worked on then, if not perfect yet.

[indigo vigil]

its further, def nicer

thank god for that

but then they came in and fucked up the utahs stats

[dawn falcon]

They made it better imo

Utah’s not the tanky rat anymore

[indigo vigil]

With their hp, no

[solemn sequoia]

no they didnt

[indigo vigil]

IT NEVER WAS

[ebon kraken]

The whole game is in beta nothings final

[solemn sequoia]

utah was never tanky

[dawn falcon]

A Utah could tank a hit from Carno originally and would be fine lol. It took what, 3 hits to kill a Utah?

[indigo vigil]

have u ever seen a utah take anything face on that wasnt the size of its foot?

no

so

there u go

[primal dove]

describe "fine"

[alpine plover]

ye sure

[golden coral]

As long as the dismount makes it safe to get away from a pounce. That was needed and if it's done, it's good. If it's not quite there yet, then I'm sure they're still working on it so the dismount will be just fine to use.

[indigo vigil]

3 hits to kill utah, but like 10 to kill carno

which meh I honestly liked

but NOW

[golden coral]

And if we get a bleed buff on the pounce, then that would absolutely help both vs carno/teno and especially vs stego.

[indigo vigil]

its 2 tap to kill utah

[solemn sequoia]

now its more like 20 to kill carno

[indigo vigil]

and like 20 to kill a carno

[indigo vigil]

bucking..

[dawn falcon]

Yeah. What, is Carno not 1.8 tons?

[indigo vigil]

fucking no

[dawn falcon]

Yes it is

What are you smoking

[indigo vigil]

it shouldnt be

air bro

try it

[dawn falcon]

Why

[golden coral]

Yes, so take it in waves. I did talk to you about patience, you know that. The first wave won't do much, that's fine. By the fifth time you're pouncing the stego, trust me, if it hasn't been allowed to recover, it will feel it by that time.

[solemn sequoia]

it is in game, in real life it was around 1.25 tones

[fathom obsidian]

its 32.7 bodyshot to kill a carno now

[indigo vigil]

nobody will have stam... and if they try to sit and regrain by that time all those attempts will have a good 70% of their team wiped off clean

[compact veldt]

[solemn sequoia]

but if were not aiming for realism then at least make it balenced and fun not utah weak

[dawn falcon]

Where did you get those numbers?

[golden coral]

If you have more than 4 utahs, you have some ready to go after the first wave is down. And regen is a lot safer vs a stego than vs a somewhat scarier carno or teno, you have to admit that much at least.

[indigo vigil]

Meeeeh, it is tricky..

[solemn sequoia]

well turns out the wikipedia was updated recently

[dawn falcon]

These are all based on estimated carnotaurus specimens. Cerato will likely use estimations aswell

[alpine plover]

Basically other devs have had professional esport or competitive players help playtest their games in order to strike a unified balance within the sandbox and design
After they finish designing things, they have those players playtest and fine tune changes from their feedback
Though with this game, and it having contesting playables with different niches and contending viability
Balance should be an upmost importance as this game's player run ecosystem is the secret magic of this game
If it gets stagnant or detrimental like the apexes were in Legacy, then that's when problems seep in
There should never be a lackluster or bad playable

[dawn falcon]

Why would you use the Wikipedia…

The Wikipedia is like using inaccurate size charts

They don’t work

[winged sierra]

wikipedia is usually fine, but using papers and other credible sources is preferable especially when you're claiming carno is 1.25t lol

[fathom obsidian]

"weighing at least 1.35 metric tons"

[winged sierra]

you also read it incorrectly, it says carnotaurus was at least 1.35 tonnes

[golden coral]

Ah, got you. I thought you meant the Isle had done something and I was all "what?". And I wholeheartedly agree on that last sentence! But then I'm thinking of something similar, except less "esports"/competitive and more proper survival gameplay/ecosystem thinking and all that. But yes. You're more than welcome to also argue for a balance vision/balance team. I don't think I personally can do more, for a few reasons.

[solemn sequoia]

yeah I see that

[fathom obsidian]

so its probably more than that

[winged sierra]

what soad said

[dawn falcon]

Yeah. ATLEAST

[fathom obsidian]

is was a pretty thicc boi

[dawn falcon]

So that means there’s probably other estimates of carnotaurus specimens. Pretty sure 1.8ton was one of them

[true ginkgo]

Nova is extremely thorough when finding the correct max weights.

[alpine plover]

A balancing team with the motto
"Viability for every playable" should exist
Though with the biases and favoritism being present we've seen a lot of these disappointing results either from poor implementation which could simply be placeholders, or direct feedback meaning well, but missing the integral point in hindsight

[fathom obsidian]

agreed

[alpine plover]

I think the devs are having the community be the "balance team" in this regard from our feedback and there using the QA as the starting point, while we're being the end point for fine tuning

After all, having lackluster implementations and contempt changes to them would leave the player base displeased

[golden coral]

And see, this would work just fine. IF we had a fucking clue what the devs want from the animals!

But yes, I think you're right, and that's how it works, more or less. Obviously we don't really know all that much but they do take in community feedback + QA so.

[alpine plover]

They're kinda wishy washy tbh

[fathom obsidian]

woops

[alpine plover]

Sometimes community feedback is important. Sometimes it's not and they have the final say

Then they have changes that no one is asking for, and changes that were not integral/necessary

[spare badger]

How have the balance changes changed gameplay? Haven't been able to play just yet

[alpine plover]

Aka Alberto/Giga's new design

[golden coral]

Well, performance is.. not good. So no idea how well the balance actually works in the long term in survival :p

[alpine plover]

Some of these recent changes, etc

[fathom obsidian]

performance are being worked on right now and utah is donezo

[spare badger]

Really?

The pounce buff hasn't helped

?

[fathom obsidian]

well not when you go from 1000 to 450hp, 130 to 55 bite and half the bleed dmg of pounce

so utah haters, rejoice

[spare badger]

They nerfed it that much?

[alpine plover]

yea,, they kinda did

[spare badger]

Damn at this rate pachy is gonna one shot it

[fathom obsidian]

2

[golden coral]

I don't think anyone was unhappy with legacy anky model. Sure, make it new and shiny but... yeah. The A-team as it were. Alberto, Acro, Anky, Austro. :p

[fathom obsidian]

just to give you a quick compare carno 2000 to 1800hp, 350 to 200 bite

[alpine plover]

They're all kinda bad
Not bad as in artistic sense
But bad in concept compared to their Legacy counterparts

[dawn falcon]

It didn’t even get the buff yet

[fathom obsidian]

the dismount is nicer at least ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spare badger]

What about teno?

[dawn falcon]

Everything was nerfed

Stego also buffed

Mainly it’s health and turn speed

[fathom obsidian]

teno feels stronger lol

[spare badger]

Probably cause tail slam is the same

[fathom obsidian]

yeah also alt bite

[solemn sequoia]

some debufs but with all of the other debuffs it basically got buffed, used to take 3 shots to the head to kill carno now its 2 and 3 for the body shots

[spare badger]

Nice

Does this finally give carnos a reason to charge?

[solemn sequoia]

nah tenos just dodge it

[spare badger]

So carno needs an ambush and can't run in like a lunatic? That's nice

[alpine plover]

Carno does sound okay now I admit

Though the contempt with Utah just seems like seething lol

Contempt towards a specific playable should always be a red flag in design
Especially in the case of balancing

[fathom obsidian]

yeah, also utah is kida weak so that makes everyone happy too apparently 😄

[solemn sequoia]

congradulations you killed one of the rare balanced dinos

[alpine plover]

Utah has it pretty bad currently

[fathom obsidian]

yeah i mean im not happy i like utah

[alpine plover]

I have contempt towards Apexes, but I'd never want to see Rexes or Gigas be royally weak and helpless in combat as it just be a ridiculous standpoint

[spare badger]

Utah was ok before why did they nerf it so hard

[alpine plover]

I dub it

Contempt in Design

[tacit oriole]

Anyone been following the last 8 hours in this thread? Would normally read the lot but wowsers

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleBasic disagreements on if the utah is utter trash now or still fine. Varying opinions on that. As well as the related questions on who should be hunting what, under what circumstances, and with how much ease/difficulty. Back and forth for far too long, with no real conclusion since we all believe we know best of course!

[tacit oriole]

Gotcha. Spotted the bleed testing someone was doing, will hope to expand on that this afternoon

[fathom obsidian]

thas me

[tacit oriole]

with admin tools can get exact numbers, too

[golden coral]

Closest to agreements would be that current performance means we can't get a proper grip on how the balance actually is. Thus, we should wait until game works, and then properly test and play, to see how it goes in survival and not just basic tests.

[tacit oriole]

I can confirm that stamina regen scales linearly with blood quantity, which I think is new

so if you are on 1% blood get 1% stam regen

[spare badger]

Huh

[fathom obsidian]

but they said they gonna buff bleed so it might be invalid soon, ill update it when there is the buff in game

[tacit oriole]

but stam is NOT affected by food or water

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleMore infosheets please and thank you!

[spare badger]

^^^

[fathom obsidian]

do you also know exact alt bites values?

[tacit oriole]

I was too tired and getting distracted by discord last night so brain farted all over the spreadsheets, otherwise would have had the stam stuff done

[golden coral]

Take your time. Performance means we can't play anyway right now :p

[earnest wind]

I hate how weak Utah is now

[tacit oriole]

not getting any rubberbanding on mine, but we only had 20 people and it's a pretty beefy server

[fathom obsidian]

can you throw me that sheet or private?

[earnest wind]

they used to be as feared as carno but now?

they're just jokes

[tacit oriole]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KY-W78HWcOmbaqomKlswp2hruBPR9nqP3nfXvPjBMmM

[fathom obsidian]

thanks!

[tacit oriole]

Sheet 1-2 is last patch, I'm filling out sheet 3 atm

[golden coral]

Oh, you're one of those.. :p

[tacit oriole]

yeah, data first formatting second haha

SilverFox makes things pretty I'm rarely that motivated lol

[golden coral]

I recognize the tag :p

[winged sierra]

very nice spreadsheet

[fathom obsidian]

the grow time are wrong tho even for last patch

[tacit oriole]

possibly, I didn't do those

[dusty fable]

Utah shouldn't be as feared as carno...

[tacit oriole]

sheet 2 is most of my work

[earnest wind]

yes it fucking should being the only other land carni currently

Until we get cera we have no competitor for carno to be worried about

its legacy rex's situation all over again

[dusty fable]

No it shouldn't. Just cause it's a land carnivore doesn't mean it should be on par with a fucking carnotaurus

[earnest wind]

i mean packs btw

a solo should not be feared by anyone lmao

[tacit oriole]

you need minimum 3, more like 4 utahs to take down a single carno atm

2 utahs getting full pounce duration won't kill a carno

[dusty fable]

Packs of 5 or more still are to be careful of

Having less health does not negate your lethality if you play well

[tacit oriole]

3 won't if it has any brains\

problem is carno can just run away from any remotely threatening situation

and even if utahs can stack significant bleed it has the speed to run to a safe wallow

[dusty fable]

Thats its thing, it's fast. If it has an out and the situation isn't optimal, it should run away, therefore you forced retreat and won the exchange

The isle is about survival

Too many people think survival means combat

[tacit oriole]

imo utah needs a speed buff. Make it only slightly slower than carno and see how that pans out

[winged sierra]

i am a little concerned about utah-carno matchup, need to test that out once rubberbanding isn't this bad

[tacit oriole]

All the hardcore utah mains I know have switched to teno after spending all yesterday afternoon fighting stuff as new utah

[fathom obsidian]

whats your concern on that?

[tacit oriole]

the new pounce is nice but carnos can just sprint through it half the time

[golden coral]

Hello there!

[dusty fable]

Thats not survival then. Combat shouldn't be the first thought when you think of survival. Combat is generally avoided even irl because the risk of death is severe. If your running in as a utah against stuff more than 3 times your weight expect to die.

[tacit oriole]

which is fine for a herbivore, but carnivores need combat to survive

[winged sierra]

unsure, just judging off of what people have been saying, but it seems like bleed might need tweaking

[tacit oriole]

atm there is nothing for utahs to eat

[fathom obsidian]

yeah is super low rn but filipe already said they are gonna bump it up a bit

[tacit oriole]

even scavanging is harder with the new over-eating changes

[quick anchor]

Filipe had already confirmed a bleed buff yeah, Utah is in a good spot

[golden coral]

Different bleed resistances wold be nice.

[winged sierra]

this is more along the lines of what i was thinking

[golden coral]

So it's less just buff bleed, and more "this critter needs to be a bit more vunerable"

[quick anchor]

You eat a lot slower and if you vomit you lose a lot more food tho

[wide cosmos]

Is it bleed buff for Utah or bleed buff across the board?>

[dusty fable]

Not necessarily, combat can be avoided with an ambush. Or you could just take easy fights. Sure killing the adult teno is a big reward but Is it worth the risk rather than attacking the smaller teno nearby

[quick anchor]

Bleed buff for Utah pounce

[winged sierra]

if carno is able to sprint through utah pounce bleeds it may end up being more of a bleed resistance thing rather than a flat out bleed increase on pounce

[dusty fable]

In other words, ambush or take fights you know you can win

[tacit oriole]

Takes a lot more over-eating to trigger vomit and you can deny corpses through endlessly eating

[fathom obsidian]

did you check my doc on that?

[dusty fable]

If your taking a battle without certainty of winning, donr cry qhen you die

[winged sierra]

nope

[golden coral]

Sounds good to me. You could just make carno run = terrible idea. Sure, it can nip the utah on the way out of a pounce if it's good, but A, that should still let the utah get away, and B, if that carno now decides to run after, even a little pounce is going to do a lot. You might want to at that point as carno, be a bit more careful on just following a utah, especially into foliage.

[fathom obsidian]

its a limited test but it gives some visuals

[winged sierra]

link?

[fathom obsidian]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLS73FBeE1ASEquj-y1UGfP9l8bXbq0Qnqr8D4QH228/edit

[tacit oriole]

I got money riding on utahs being bottom pick behind teno/stego/carno/ptera now

[winged sierra]

thanks

[tacit oriole]

Unsure what you think you are arguing against @alpine plover

[wide cosmos]

Due to speed nerfs Utas are unable to doge carnos anymore. Solo carno can destroy entire Utah pack

[golden coral]

I'm not so sure honestly. Utah is still pretty playable and popular :p

[tacit oriole]

you asked what the changes to over-eating was, I explained it, not sure what point you are trying to make now

I never said it wasn't?

[fathom obsidian]

yeah to be fair i found that utah can dodge carno better now

[tacit oriole]

just saying it's a nerf to scavangers

[winged sierra]

yeah utah pounce overall got decked hard, hopefully the bleed buff is sufficient (in reference to the doc)

[wide cosmos]

If you want to test it come on Scope server, Play as Utah ant try to dodge me as Carno

Ive done it

[tacit oriole]

It is still doable but with the global speed nerf it's harder than before

though the hitbox rego changes do help

[fathom obsidian]

whats your name on server, ill tell scope to test with you

[wide cosmos]

Ive tried, carnos can just turn into you and run you down takes just couple bites and dead

same as here

[tacit oriole]

yes and no

[winged sierra]

this is also big yes. I don't want carno to be trapped as soon as a few utahs look at it, but once it enters a fight i believe it should be relatively committed especially after being pounced. Being able to run away and wallow with minimal consequence just negates pounce's purpose

[wide cosmos]

Same as Discord name

[tacit oriole]

less overall damage but they get an increased headshot bonus

[fathom obsidian]

@winged sierra you saw the doc?

[winged sierra]

yep yep

[golden coral]

I think I put it this way earlier. If a carno sees three utahs, it shouldn't just be "charge", it should be "how do I take these down without retaliation", planning before action and all that.

[fathom obsidian]

is it something useful or nah

[winged sierra]

it's certainly useful for seeing how pounce has been changed

[golden coral]

@fathom obsidianTold ya!

[tacit oriole]

Raw damage was nerfed (400->300 for slam, 300->225 for kick), but nw slam and kick get additional headshot multipliers - e.g. against a stego normally headshots are 2x, but teno gets 3x

[fathom obsidian]

thanks i feel its pretty limited tho

[winged sierra]

though a little hard to compare, maybe a written section with rough numbers side by side would be helpful

[tacit oriole]

so teno slam against stego head is 900 damage, whereas carno headshot with alt-bite is 500

[fathom obsidian]

yeah but eyeballing numbers is bad

[dawn falcon]

Wait so what are the comparisons when it comes to bleed damage

How much does Utah bleed Carno compared to stego

[fathom obsidian]

no, how much bleed and dmg changed compared to prev patch

[winged sierra]

could split it into fractions rather than exact numbers

[fathom obsidian]

on stego and carno

[dawn falcon]

So then how far down does a full pounce take carnos blood to

[winged sierra]

and from fractions get exact numbers

[fathom obsidian]

ok ill work on it tomorrow

[tacit oriole]

I'll be getting exact numbers this afternoon

[fathom obsidian]

there we go

[winged sierra]

awesome

[tacit oriole]

unsure of exact testing methodology but we'll see

probably use utah pounce as the baseline

[winged sierra]

you community mathematicians do the lord's work

[fathom obsidian]

you QA guys dont have raw numbers?

[tacit oriole]

QA often don't get behind-the-scenes info, depends on the testing methodology

[winged sierra]

you allow the rest of the community to get exact numbers is what i'm saying

[tacit oriole]

the theory is devs have already tested with that info, better for QA to go in blind to test differently

Would be nice if @AfterthoughtLLC gave actual numbers in patch notes, like the respected competitive games do (e.g. DOTA), but still

[winged sierra]

developers don't give them out for obvious reasons, so i guess it can be a little problematic that you're doing it, but still i think it's nice to have numbers for comparison here and there

[tacit oriole]

Well... the reasons aren't that obvious since many others do (GGG, Valve for example)

[golden coral]

Well, it's not a competitive game. And I think that's part of it

I've heard they don't want us to know so we can't just calculate metas and stuff

So there's more uncertainty in any interaction

It's a survival game, I think they want us to make ingame judgements based on damage screen blood rather than knowing exactly how much health we have left and if we need to run or not

[tacit oriole]

it's just @AfterthoughtLLC's SOP. Development is very segmented and they aren't concerned with overhead around building and releasing exact patchnotes

[winged sierra]

giving out raw numbers leads to people finding metas much more easily and in a way ruins the intended experience

basically what erik said

rather than going "i've taken x bites and thus have y health left, so i will do z to maximise my chances of victory"

you just eyeball it

[tacit oriole]

Well, I will cease and desist if requested but until that point I'm assuming lack of info is from cbf rather than ndi

[winged sierra]

or at least that's the reason i assume they're not given out

[hollow canyon]

Kato, you really, really don't do that

When working on a meta you typically go for a private server where you're an admin

and then figure out how much of what do you need to kill any specific animal

and what circumstances are required for that to happen

[fathom obsidian]

also kato can you take a look at this? https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativePluckyShallotRalpherZ-uonLhVT9Mx1cEF19

[tacit oriole]

all the raw info is available you just need server admin to find it, which is giving certain players advantages over others

[hollow canyon]

^

[tacit oriole]

I'm publishing it to try and even the field

[winged sierra]

oh disregard what i said then, didn't take that into account

[tacit oriole]

plus there will be people out there datamining the game (against the EULA btw - but that doesn't stop people)

[hollow canyon]

It would work if you didn't have a bunch of tryhards playing the game

but as it is hiding the stats imo only creates issues

because it's hard to say whether something works as intended or if it's a bug

[tacit oriole]

e.g. for the longest time most people didn't know deino alt-bite dealt extra damage, and carno alt-bite didn't

now it's the other way around of course

[winged sierra]

what about it?

[fathom obsidian]

wrong clip, they cant pounce it on a hill

im stupid

[tacit oriole]

heres a possibly good idea: you know how jumping down a big hill makes you take fall damage? what if that damage was applied to pounced targets instead

so you get a pounce from a high spot you can pin and wreck bigger things maybe

[winged sierra]

that's interesting

[golden coral]

That was a stealth change, because I swear to you, when I tested it, it did the same damage. On deino that is.

[golden coral]

What do you mean they cant pounce it on a hill? :p

[fathom obsidian]

they can't latch on stego while pouncing slightly uphill lol

is so funny

[golden coral]

Yes. Now remember that herrera is a thing and we're all good!

[winged sierra]

oh very interesting idea especially for herrera

[golden coral]

Because that, sounds like an amazing ability for herrera. You hit, and you get some really nice damage in. You miss, and well... splat you go.

Up to you how high you want to jump from.

[winged sierra]

will definitely take note of that

[tacit oriole]

I'd like there to be an intermediatary pounce effect between pin (same size or smaller) and pounce (larger), where if it's say 1x to 1.5x your weight you stagger/ministun it when you pounce

[golden coral]

Now all we need is the ability to put corpse "pieces", like skulls and ribcages maybe, on tree branches and there you go. Shrike herrera, proper horror vibe!

[winged sierra]

mmhm

honestly can't wait for gore in general

[tacit oriole]

I'm getting real "The Forest" vibes from that and I love it

[golden coral]

Well, they want it to be a horror game.. :p

[tacit oriole]

I mean having an area of the forest infested with herrera and all covered in dead bits is a fantastic theme, but dunno why herrera would warn prey off like that haha

[golden coral]

Because it's just your home tree. You'd have specific trees, big enough, with spiky branches where you can do this. You hunt in the surrounding area, from all trees.

[tacit oriole]

though a few carefully placed cerato skulls around your nesting sites may send the right message

[golden coral]

And if it's just skulls/clean bones

Then no scent

So you'd have to wander upon the specific tree, and by then, if you're prey, you're probably not leaving alive. Unless the herrera isnt around at all.

[tacit oriole]

so when do herrera get to drop corpses on prey to incapacitate them

[golden coral]

Hah xD

That would be the extra thing, no? You wander under this tree, haven't looked up. And suddenly you just get a skull falling on you. Extra points if it's the same as whatever species you are.

@tacit orioleI do like the idea of an intermediate pounce, from a higher vantage point. Could be a stagger/stun, or use the pin anim, but immediately jump off. So you'd knock it down, get a few bites free, and can now pounce the moment it gets up at that.

[tacit oriole]

haha I love the idea of bored herrera just throwing bits of bodies at stuff and talking smack, letterkenny style

mmm, utah definitely needs a buff now, or more potential prey. It's all well and good to say "just make bigger packs" but then your prey will be doing that too

a speed buff and pounce buff (bit more bleed, bit less stam drain) would probably do ti

and teno needs a nerf

at least a longer grow time, it's basically a psuedo-apex now

[golden coral]

I think we might need to wait for the update proper too. Pachy will help as prey, and then there's the diets for herbis. That will hopefully get rid of the "afk in a corner until grown" as well as cut down on massive herbi groups, especially for the more powerful ones.

Then you'll see a lot more young and vunerable prey items.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, we got a half-way patch to fix the server remote access exploit, which is great, but because of the codebase management we got all the hp and bite damage changes without the extra mechanics that may (or may not) actually balance them

[golden coral]

Not sure on the speed buff, and we'll see if pounce gets a bit more bleed. Honestly I'd be careful doing more than one thing without proper testing. I think doing too much at one time is part of why we're in this situation. But I don't know how well they test things so there is that.

[primal folio]

I can't imagine it's very fun being a try-hard in an indie dinosaur game with a community of mostly children and young adults. This isn't a competitive game at all, nor is trying to be, which is refreshing. But gamers gotta ruin everything I guess. lol

[golden coral]

To them it's great fun, I can assure you.

[tacit oriole]

A lot of older people play this too, I know a bunch of 30+ and even some 40+

[fathom obsidian]

they did def more than one change at once on this update, that why i was scared too

[hollow canyon]

Young adults are typically the people who are the biggest tryhards in my experience.

[tight dome]

Utah is useless against anything now

[primal folio]

Yes but the majority of people playing this game are in a younger demographic. I'm 30. I'm definitely not the majority age. Just reading some of the threads around here indicates that much.

[golden coral]

I think I said that once before, not sure when, but yes. It can be a bit iffy when you both buff and nerf, and so on. It's perhaps better to test one thing at a time, with a set goal, and then see how it goes. But balancing is hard, so we'll have to give them that.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, when you are 16-24 you are obsessed with trying to prove yourself, once you get older you realise you don't GAF what others think and just do your own thing haha

[golden coral]

Some of the "tryhards" that I know are around your age I think, so there is that :p

[tacit oriole]

well, there is also the group that just take pride in their hobbies, so there is that too lol

but there's a difference between seeking excellence and tryharding imo

like when you have obviously won as say a teno - do you hunt them down and finish them off or strut around 1 calling

I usually let utahs live if they've obviously lost - give them one slam and let them limp away, no real need to kill them, most people get the message

especially now

[fathom obsidian]

now you will kill em with one slap

[tacit oriole]

it's actually legit hard to land headshots with tailslam now, but yeah

you are more likely to kill a utah with a kick

it's a lot easier to get headshots from the side, because you are less likely to get body overlap turning it into a body shot instead of a head shot

whereas kick seems to work like stego swing - first hitbox in the strike arc is the target hitbox

[fathom obsidian]

you just need a tail on body and its oneshot no need to aim for head

[golden coral]

Good to know, now if only I could get the kick to work for me :p

[fathom obsidian]

or just press alt + click 3 times, poof

[tacit oriole]

but yeah as SOAD said as long as you land a slam they are dead regardless, just need to follow up with any other non-bite ability and they will die

[fathom obsidian]

nono

they die on hit now

with 1 tail slam on body

[golden coral]

I don't think it oneshots them?

[tacit oriole]

negatory, you live through a slam to the body

[golden coral]

Utah 450 health

[tacit oriole]

tested a bunch of that

[golden coral]

Even if the slam is 400, body should not be one shot

[fathom obsidian]

i tested a bunch of that too 😛

[tacit oriole]

slam is 300

headshot is 600

or 900 against stego

[fathom obsidian]

something is not right

try again cuz scope also like 10 min tested and died from a bodyshot tailslam

[golden coral]

900 vs stego?

[primal folio]

And I guess when I say it can't be very fun... what I mean is, your 'skill' in a game is kinda invalidated if the majority of the playerbase is young kids who just want to play the game to have fun. Most people playing this game aren't doing a meta analysis over which dinosaur is better, so naturally they will struggle against that one guy who has spent hours testing the damage output of every dinosaur. Being overly competitive in a game where most people aren't is never truly 'fun' even if someone has deluded themselves into thinking that, because you're never really getting that challenge that you REALLY crave. At least for ME anyway. I don't play this dino sim to GG EZ CLAP. I play it to because I'm a nerd who likes dinosaurs. lol When I really want that competitive element, I play other games that are actually designed that way, where there is a nice even mix of casual and competitive play. Sorry for the wall of text! Had a couple drinks, spawned a couple thoughts! lol

[tacit oriole]

it took 3 or 4 goes for us to get a teno to one-shot a utah with slam

[fathom obsidian]

also utah headshot is 1.5x not 2x

[golden coral]

Shouldn't stego be 600 if the multiplier is 2x?

[fathom obsidian]

only stego is 2x

[tacit oriole]

Stegos take extra headshot damage - all dinos except stego are 1.5x, stego are 2x, but teno kick and slam get extra headshot damage this patch - 2x against all except stego, 3x against stego

[golden coral]

I guess teno and stego will be competing then!

[fathom obsidian]

btw if the utah wasnt falling on your testing that was a base of tail hit

[golden coral]

That should be interesting to say the least

But didn't realize the attacks themselves had multipliers

[tacit oriole]

negatory, hitbox was on their shoulders. You get splatted to the ground but you live

I'll get someone on to take a video if you want proof

[fathom obsidian]

i tried 5 times and died every time

scope tried once just some min ago on stream, died

[tacit oriole]

are you sure they didn't just follow with a second slam?

[fathom obsidian]

positive i was the one slamming

[golden coral]

I would agree with you, just wanted to point it out. These people do enjoy being the best, and want to see more of that "skill" and competitive mentality I think. I mostly play this to be a dino too, with proper realism "roleplay" preferably. But most people are still in the mindset of treating this as a fighting game over a survival game and all that.

Can either of you provide a video?

[tacit oriole]

Well, I can't explain that SOAD. Last night 100% confirmed that slam does 300 base damage and utahs have 450 hp

[golden coral]

Soad?

[fathom obsidian]

not really, we can test now on my server

takes 2 min total

anyone down?

[tacit oriole]

Sure, DM me the name and I'll hop in

[fathom obsidian]

welp

[tacit oriole]

Welp

[fathom obsidian]

hahaha only 1 server on list

[tacit oriole]

looks like the client patch was rolled out but not the server one

gg

[fathom obsidian]

well you can test again btw when server are up to confirm or deny

[tacit oriole]

I'd put money on my numbers being right but I've made mistakes before, who knows

[fathom obsidian]

maybe last night was slightly different number wise?

[tacit oriole]

would be very, very surprising if they buffed teno now

but they may have rolled back the hitbox rego changes

which would make headshots easier to land

[alpine plover]

Could I join u guys in testing?

[tacit oriole]

Sure, we both have our servers in #unofficial-isle-communities along with discord links

I'm trying to force a steam update to it atm though

[fathom obsidian]

i did update the server but no joy, they funneling ppl on EU 1 right now

[golden coral]

One of you please let me know how it goes!

[alpine plover]

Which server is it?

[tacit oriole]

DM'd details as requested, remember Rule #9 is in effectr

Looks like mine is doing a patch install after triggering the steam verify file integrity @fathom obsidian , might be worth trying

[fathom obsidian]

can you see any server?

my list is empty

[tacit oriole]

I could see Official EU and Life Finds a Way

[alpine plover]

Try restart it again

It came in for me

[fathom obsidian]

welp, ill guess ill know tomorrow, its late on EU now anyway

[alpine plover]

It'll settle later through more patches later

[fathom obsidian]

so i think im done for today

yeah nacen

good night everyone!

[tacit oriole]

g'night!

Looks like (another) server patch just came down the pipe, applying now edit: Server now crashing after map load, gg

[tacit oriole]

Here ya go https://i.imgur.com/SyfJ7qo.mp4

had to borrow another server since mine isn't booting with the new patch

Looks like this mini-patch included a buff to utah pounce bleed, last night a full pounce to a carno followed by sprinting left them at 55%, now it nearly kills them

One full utah pounce, full sprint carno during bleed

The blood changes to carno may have been missing from last patch

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleLet me know when you know what that does to a teno and a stego, preferably both when running, and just standing. Same for carno if you can.

[tacit oriole]

That was carno before, testing teno stego now

it's a bit harder since it's not my server

Sorry, want standing too - hold

Teno, sprinting during bleed

Teno, standing during bleed

Btw this is the stam you get kicked off at as a utah

Teno, sitting during bleed

I won't spam any more in here but teno and carno seem consistent, I'll get exact numbers when my server is back up and add it to the spreadsheet

[golden coral]

Alright. You can always jus spam me in DM if you want :p

[sonic flame]

Yo shoot a link to that sheet my way, I like seeing what y’all can make

[golden coral]

But I'm surprised teno comes out slightly worse than carno in running, but I'm guessing teno can run for longer?

[tacit oriole]

Bleed heal time for teno is 1:20 regardless of activity

[tacit oriole]

Correct, teno has 15s more sprint than carno

[tacit oriole]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KY-W78HWcOmbaqomKlswp2hruBPR9nqP3nfXvPjBMmM/ Sheet 3 is working page for yesterdays patch, need to verify for today

[golden coral]

How long can a teno run in total?

[tacit oriole]

1:45

[golden coral]

Okay. Thank you!

[tacit oriole]

I was pretty zombafied doing some of those stam numbers though so errors may be present

[golden coral]

Go rest up and then test it all! I'll just poke you tomorrow for info :p

[tacit oriole]

it's lunchtime for me so already rested up haha, just working around server issues and actual payed work

[frosty heron]

Basically if you don't wanna bleed out, don't run

And considering the bucking option on pounces it should be easy to deal with it

[tacit oriole]

yeah, bucking was super strong yesterday

[golden coral]

Wonder if it's still good.

[dusky surge]

the best way i see utahs handling bucking is by swapping out. Immediately after buck A, go in for a pounce and let your mates escape, keeps the target distracted and bleeding

They will either need to commit to the OG attacker and be torn to shreds by current attackers, or buck again, draining more stam

[tacit oriole]

Utah vs teno is super viable now, as long as you have a few in your pack

[golden coral]

Well that changed quickly from before then. How viable is "super viable"? :p

[tacit oriole]

3 utah vs 1 teno is pretty much gg if you are smart

same for carno

[wide cosmos]

Before the change done some testing against carno. 4 Utahs could't kill a single carno. Timing pounces etc. due to how slow all the movements are now carnos can easilly cut the utas trying to juke and get bites. 2-3 bites and utahs dead.

[tacit oriole]

yeah, the bloodpool changes didn't get applied

now two full pounces will nearly kill a carno if it can't lie down, and easily kill it if it stays moving

[golden coral]

Any changes to bucking that you know of?

[tacit oriole]

haven't tested sorry

[golden coral]

No worries, another time then!

[tacit oriole]

most people are wanting to get growing on official

[golden coral]

Just you wait, we'll get a wipe or something :p

[wintry mountain]

I saw positive utah things

Me likey, glad people are liking the slight bleed change

[tacit oriole]

yeah utahs can bleed stuff out now

wasn't slight, either

carnos and tenos have about half the blood pool they had yesterday

some tweaks to stamina too

[dusty fable]

@harsh lark the weight/hp argument can be countered by this. Post update, utah had 1/4 the health of stego. Tell me how that makes sense. Weight dies affect your hp and also assists in those mechanical things

[harsh lark]

It's not about "Making sense" when it's a video game. An HP difference of 4 times wasn't minor at all and was sufficient for making their matchups differ. Now however that difference has been overblown to an insane 13 times.

You're asking me how it makes sense, but I should be asking you how it makes sense that these completely different mechanics mirror each other.

[tacit oriole]

It's the age-old realism vs gameplay argument

Same always gets brought up with shotguns in FPS's

What we had before wasn't realistic, but it worked balance wise... Now I think it's way off

Just watched 3 sub tenos wreck 6 utahs because they didn't know to pounce

[dusky surge]

as long as utah can still at least bleed and outmanoeuvre things im slightly happy

[tacit oriole]

you'll need to pounce stuff or alt-bite, but yeah the new blood pools make it viable

[cedar shore]

@harsh lark Finally someone that actuallyl understands

[true ginkgo]

The gap being larger between large and small is a good thing. There was no room for creatures like allo with the old health.

Not every animal needs to fight every animal. It’s survival not deathmatch. Sometimes you need to flee.

The old health was absurd, and this was even more clear when it came to the large juvies.

A 500kg stego had less health than a 120kg dryo

I do feel utah pounce is undertuned though if it’s not even killing 450kg carnos.

[vagrant inlet]

You seem to have forgotten that Allosaurus isn’t even in the game right now and won’t be for at least a year

[hollow canyon]

The fact that Utahraptor had half the health of a Carnotaurus, which is 3 times larger than it, made them game look laughable and immersion-breaking. Matter of fact the old system made a lot of different things about the game feel just outright off.

[cedar shore]

Why was there no room for mid tiers exactly? I hope you understand how broken the balance in legeacy is and having half the server play rexes isnt exactly very fun

[hollow canyon]

The biteforces of mid tiers were also way too high.

Carno should've never had 350N biteforce and yet it did because it was supposed to hunt Utahs that were absurdly tanky.

[cedar shore]

I mean, it was balanced though? isnt that what matters in the end?

[hollow canyon]

It was balanced for the time being. It's still balanced now, matter of fact it's better balanced because the larger animals aren't artificially gimped.

[cedar shore]

Are you saying that utah is balanced here or..?

[hollow canyon]

I'm saying that its hp is balanced. As for whether the animal is balanced I think it might need some help in terms of its own biteforce and inertia at its max velocity(I'd personally also up its hp and weight up to 500 but that's just me).

The general direction was most certainly correct

[cedar shore]

Yeah the damage nerf was just too much

[hollow canyon]

How much HP do you think a Dilo or Megalania would've had if we kept the old values?

[cedar shore]

I really dont support the fact that weight = health again though

[hollow canyon]

There's a tonne of animals that fall in between Tenonto and Utah size-wise

[cedar shore]

yeah?

[hollow canyon]

and they'd have to be squeezed in between them HP-wise or have artificially bloated/decreased HP pools that don't correlate with their sizes.

Larger animals are just tougher than the smaller ones - you have to get through a thicker hide and more mass before you get to the vital organs. Weight being equal to HP should've been a thing from the get-go.

[cedar shore]

Just because an animal is large doesnt mean it should have high or low hp

[cedar shore]

Smaller animals can have thick hide and skin aswell

Take honey badgers as an example

[hollow canyon]

They do have lose skin that allows them to take a bit of punishment but they aren't capable of taking more of it than a leopard or a lion.

[wide cosmos]

It was not upsurdly tanky. For carno to kill a Utah only took 3 bites, 2 if you got a heads hot, and carno can bite fast. On the other hand it took 16 bites for Utah to kill carno

[hollow canyon]

It still takes 2-3 bites for a Carno to kill a Utah.

Carno's biteforce was decreased - rightfully so

And yes I agree that Utah's biteforce should be higher

[wide cosmos]

Nope, it's down to 2 bites, it can kill with 3 biting the tail

[hollow canyon]

It's not - Utah has 450hp, Carno has 200 biteforce

you aren't hitting the torso if you're needing an additional bite.

[wide cosmos]

I'm totally fine on utahs bite force being low, it's suppose to be attrition hunter not brawler. Problem is for attrition to work you have to stay alive and in the fight, but now there's no HP to do that. And universal speed nerf made it near impossible to juke carnos

[hollow canyon]

It's not the speed nerf that makes it impossible to juke Carnos - those are the inertia changes.

You turn worse when you're mid-run

It is possibly a bit too high on the smaller animals and might have to go down. The QA will definitely look into that.

As for the HP - the only match ups that have changed in how much damage you can take is Deino(since it oneshots you now) and Tenonto which takes you out with 2 attacks(onetailslam if it lands a headshot).

[cedar shore]

Thats so stupid, juking a carno that can controll its movement well was hard enough beforehand

[wide cosmos]

Forgot the alt bite doing 250. I've done testing with my pack. 4 coordinated utahs couldn't take 1 carno down before they died. Note that this was before they changed the bleed, so it might be different now

[cedar shore]

Carno can just run into like an 8 raptor pack and not risk dying

[hollow canyon]

Yea the bleed is better now. I'm not a fan of Utah being a bleeder tbh but it is what the community wanted in the long run so it is what it is.

[cedar shore]

I wish the balance was how it was when update 2 came out

it was actually good back then

[hollow canyon]

I really don't think it can run into an people strong raptor pack and not risk dying

from what I've heard you will bleed out

fast

[cedar shore]

Well it can take a bite and run off full pounces so..

[hollow canyon]

if they start ladning pounces

[cedar shore]

prob

carnos can just knock them off in like 3 sec and take hardly any damage or bleed

bucking is super strong

[hollow canyon]

From what people that tested the bleed changes were saying - running while you're bleeding will kill you.

[cedar shore]

was this recently?

[hollow canyon]

you pretty much have to stay stationary

well the hotfix came out... some hours ago I think?

not sure how long ago exactly but I think it was less than 10 hours ago iirc

[cedar shore]

that sounds good but still, keeping track of a carno constantly running at you means you have to juke it constantly, it was deffinately possible to consistantly do it before but now with the turning speed and health nerf i doubt that will end well

[wide cosmos]

I don't know if this is a bug but when we were testing tenno oneshots utahs with a tailslam.

[hollow canyon]

it oneshots it with a headshot

tbh I think Tenonto might be overtuned

[cedar shore]

did they not nerf teno damage?

[hollow canyon]

but that's a different story

[cedar shore]

oh my god

[wide cosmos]

Nope body shot

[cedar shore]

teno used to do 500 damage in a tail slam

[hollow canyon]

you're hitting the neck then

[cedar shore]

Seems like they didnt change that

[cedar shore]

Still, getting tail slammed by a teno is certain death

it knocks you down

[hollow canyon]

it is

[cedar shore]

Utahraptor required so much skill and patience i honestly dont know what people are smoking when they say "Utahs just attack brainlessly" like have you ever played utah?

[wide cosmos]

We tried multiple times, body one shot, base of the tail chance to survive with like 5% health

[cedar shore]

Carno is the dino right now attacking everything without a carno in the world

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Carno will be doing well against the likes of Stego or Deino

[cedar shore]

Seems like they didnt nerf it in that case

[cedar shore]

Eh, if you are a good you can take on a stego if you are multiple carnos, not easy but plausible

[wide cosmos]

That was early yesterday, I know they release couple hot fixes.

[hollow canyon]

You need iirc 16 headshots to kill it

with a large pack it might be possible

Stego also oneshots you with a headshot now

I wouldn't even try that personally, sounds like too high of a risk

[cedar shore]

Some people are in it for the risk yknow

Like me

I feel like they sould select the QA off in differnet groups dedicated on testing different aspects.

So we dont have die hard dinosaur realism fans "balance testing" the game

[hollow canyon]

Hunting a Stego as a Utah - sure, Utah's kind of fast and easy to grow but I wouldn't waste a Carno that takes 2h+ on getting potentially oneshot by a Stego.

There are no "die-hard dinosaur realism fans" balance testing the game

Idk where you're getting that idea from

[wide cosmos]

I don't think most of the people played as a Utah to understand how unforgiving playing as Utah is. One slip up and you drop dead. Now with all the changes you might aswell change the Utah model to compy since they have about the same abilities lol

[cedar shore]

idk its kinda just how i feel like it is rn

That QA guys take on the utah nerf was horrible though

[cedar shore]

yup

"This allows Utahraptor players to play smarter than before and think, rather than mindlessly biting a 6 ton animal the next time they think they're hot shit" . yikes

[hollow canyon]

You might feel that way but Utah is simply being turned into what it is supposed to be - an attrition hunter that uses high numbers to slowly wear down and kill its prey item. Rather than do the completely absurd things it was capable of doing back in update 2 which you think was the time when the game was balanced.

[wide cosmos]

Salty stego main spoted

[hollow canyon]

4 Utahs pressing rmb in the direction of a 5h animal and taking it down in ~10 seconds, those were the times

[cedar shore]

Im not saying that it was perfectly balanced when update 2 came out, poucing was a bit op at the time since there was hardly any counterplay and many people didnt understand how the mechanics work, currently though there is just so much counterplay to pouncing and utahs in general they really struggle

[hollow canyon]

"A bit"?

[cedar shore]

it was buggy ik

[primal dove]

ok yea pouncing in update 2 was really strong

[cedar shore]

you could get locked on a pounced target and kill it

[primal dove]

i think it was pretty balanced when update 3 came out

[cedar shore]

Yeah it really was

[tacit oriole]

Everything could fight everything, which is a fun place to be

[cedar shore]

they only thing missing was the kickback that we have now

[primal dove]

mixed with the biteforce utah was in a fine spot but now it´s just...

[cedar shore]

its a mess

having 2 different stats allways be equal was such a dumb desicion and it will only make the game harder to balance

[wide cosmos]

That's not the case, Utahs could never fight a deino, or a pack of carnos. Now a pack of Utah can't even take down a solo carno

[cedar shore]

tbh all i want is make utahs capable of taking down carnos so they have SOMETHING to at least worry abit about

it shouldnt just be one dinosaur preying on another

[wide cosmos]

Yah carnos are steamroloing unchallenged more than before

[cedar shore]

There is like 0 risk to playing carnos

[tacit oriole]

The issue really is: if utahs can't hunt carno/teno, then what CAN they hunt? AI?

[cedar shore]

there are no predators capable of spotting you and hunting you down

[cedar shore]

dryos, hypsis and pters. fun...

very fun...

[tacit oriole]

I would say they can in numbers and with intelligence, but it relies on your prey being solo and away from trees

[cedar shore]

yup

[tacit oriole]

And carnos can still just run away

[cedar shore]

whats allso extremely stupid is the carno has a pack size of 5 while utah only has 8

[primal dove]

a strong and smart utah pack would also help the eco system if they can take down carnos, carnos might not megapack

[cedar shore]

5 carnos will DESTROY 8 utahs every single time

[tacit oriole]

3 carnos will

[cedar shore]

it also makes the game more fun for everyone

[primal dove]

depends

[tacit oriole]

5 carnos is a huge pack though, and unlikely to stay fed

[cedar shore]

idk hunger has never really seemed to be an issue, this might have changed in the recent update though

[winged sierra]

hunger has changed a lot with this mini patch

[cedar shore]

yeah ik

i like that tbh

[winged sierra]

takes 5 years to fill and drain is higher

[wide cosmos]

I've been a part of 7 adult carnos, there's no issue staying fed, you can kill anything, including land deinos

[primal dove]

facts

[cedar shore]

Ive never really felt like hunger as a constant issue, game just feels to easy for me tbh

[tacit oriole]

Fair enough

[primal dove]

how do I verify my files? Heard that doing so should improve ur fps

[winged sierra]

go into steam and right click the isle, properties, local files, verify integrity of game files

[tacit oriole]

Can't hurt. May be worth trying the old profile folder delete as well

[primal dove]

It worked, thx :3

[winged sierra]

no worries

[true ginkgo]

Honestly I’d love utahs to have far higher pack limits. Like 15.

[wide cosmos]

That's too many, doesn't make sense to make Utah a fodder and just increase the pack size. Just make Utah relevant to where pack of 8 is formidable

[winged sierra]

A pack of 8 is plenty formidable

But I agree the group size could use an increase

[wide cosmos]

Not at the moment, you'll loose half or more of your pack to a solo carno

[winged sierra]

Can’t speak on that as I haven’t had the chance to fight a carno yet but a pack of 8 competent Utahs can take on everything else in my experience

[wide cosmos]

Larger pack won't help Utah hunt anyways, it's just gonna make it more annoying for the pray. There's limited amount of Utah that can pounce at once or cycle pounces. They will die just as easy, only difference is it will take longer to kill them off.

Why would you need a mega pack if half or more will be dead after the fight

[sturdy crow]

are they going to change this night time bs

its been night for 2 hours and was day for 15 min

[wide cosmos]

Another thing is keeping large pack fed, especially with diet system coming up

[winged sierra]

A bigger pack means more people to cycle out once their stamina gets low, but you do make a good point with keeping them fed

How big are carno groups currently?

[wide cosmos]

You won't have a chance to cicle in or out, utahs die off in 1-2 hits

[winged sierra]

I’m certain there is time because as I said I have fought a stego with 7 Utahs

It’s difficult, as it should be, but it is possible

[wide cosmos]

Against a steggo anything above 4 Utah don't really help. It's all about timing and bleeding

[winged sierra]

Against teno I mean it’s obvious, just two or three utahs can win if they play their cards right. The only hindrance really is low stamina, which can be combated by cycling out attackers

What happens when all 4 Utahs get low on stamina? You sit and do nothing and possibly die. More Utahs = more constant fighting = faster stego death

[golden coral]

@wide cosmosHave you tested carno/teno/stego matchups with the buffed pounce bleed?

[wide cosmos]

Not like stego can chase you or run away, you don't need that much stamina fighting steggo, you can have 2 utahs pouncing, biting while other 2 trailing and regening stam

[wide cosmos]

I haven't yet, curious to try later

[golden coral]

Alright. Because you said earlier carno still wrecks a utah pack but I think with the new bleed buff, it's a lot scarier for it, and you can shut it down a lot easier (as in, if it runs, it dies). Do let me know how that goes, please!

[winged sierra]

Yep, you can, but more than 4 Utahs is beneficial for reasons listed above. I’m not trying to say you can’t fight stego with 4, just that having 8 does help

[wide cosmos]

Yes definitely will try with my pack later. Last time I even tried to play carno like a noob running around and spaming bite, utahs still had no chance.

Hopefully it's different now

[hollow canyon]

Of course it's beneficial to have more than 4 Utahs while hunting a larger animal - if one of those 4 dies you have other Utahs that can take its place.

[wide cosmos]

The goal is to play patiently and take down larger animal without dying. Thats why I'm against large fodder Utah packs

[hollow canyon]

It's not happening

I think you were not following what's been said about the interactions between apexes and Utahs - you will be able to kill them but very likely at the cost of losing half if not more of your packmates.

It's been said even before Evrima was released

[wide cosmos]

We have no Apexes apart from deino. And that would be the case with deino

[hollow canyon]

Stego

I'd argue that Stego is more of an apex than Deino

[wide cosmos]

Steggo is not an apex

[hollow canyon]

Deino is most definitely not an apex then

[wide cosmos]

I'm confused, what is your definition of an apex

[scenic heron]

Deino should be pseudo apex at best

Not apex

[hollow canyon]

^

[hollow canyon]

An apex would be capable of having an equal fight with other apexes

[wide cosmos]

Anyways a full pack of coordinated utahs should be = to a solo "apex"

[hollow canyon]

Deino's best option against Spino will be to swim away from it

Well... a pack doesn't "solo" anything by default

but yes

they will be able to do that

not without casualties though

and rightly so

[primal token]

Why cant they without lol?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... they can if they can pull it off

if apex is bad or something

but I don't think it will be happening very often

[primal token]

I dont see how they couldn't just all be be good at the game

[hollow canyon]

If the apex is also good half of them will be dying regardless

[primal token]

I dont think it will happen often tho

prob if its good

[wide cosmos]

That's very bad statement, and impossible to justify, if pack of utahs take on an "apex" they have too loose some of the pack, even if they do it perfectly?

[hollow canyon]

Can the Utahs take down a Stego without casualties right now?

[primal token]

If they both are good no one knows what will happen

could before last update atleast

[wide cosmos]

Haven't tried but I guess it would be the same as before just take much longer

[primal token]

a fact

prob be easyer just take longer ngl

easier*

[wide cosmos]

Stego still one shots Utah, it just have alot more hp now, and due to speed nerfs it alot easier to kill utahs

[hollow canyon]

Then you might be able to take down apexes without casualties. Who knows? The intention is however that you will be losing members of your pack, even many of them, if you go for an animal you shouldn't be going for.

[primal token]

speed might do something

[hollow canyon]

Stego's hp isn't really important

You bleed it out regardless of its hp

[wide cosmos]

Blood pool is tied to your HP so it matters

[hollow canyon]

Utahs are supposed to be wearing their prey down

[primal token]

yeah I agree on that

Thats the reason why utah is fun

[hollow canyon]

Blood pool has been increased but I don't know whether it has been increased relatively to HP

[primal token]

slowly bleeding out the prey

[wide cosmos]

More HP = longer time to bleed

[primal token]

not dealing high dmg numbers

[primal token]

I dont get why they did that

[hollow canyon]

Do you have any statements that would support that HP impacts the blood pool? Because I'm pretty sure those are completely separate stats

[primal token]

thats stupid imo

[wide cosmos]

If Utah pounce a Utah it will bleed out in a minute. Steggo might take 30minutes

[golden coral]

Deino is an apex designed to hunt "mid to small" with the lunge. Stego should absolutely be an apex, even if we're not quite there yet, but there's no reason not to put stego on the leve of anky/trike/rex/giga/spino and whatever else we may have. And then there's Shant and Acro, and maybe Para if we get the big one.

[wide cosmos]

Again depends on how you define an apex. For me an apex is what does not have a preditor in its own environment

[hollow canyon]

Spino will be Deino's predator though

[wide cosmos]

Spino and deino will be competing apexes

[hollow canyon]

I don't have the access to the quote but Punchpacket has stated that Deino's best option against a Spinosaurus will be to swim away.

[wide cosmos]

Steggo is a large herd animal not an apex

[golden coral]

In this case. Apex = the largest/end tier animals, that should only really be hunted by/worried about their own tier, or very specific others designed to do so.

[hollow canyon]

Matter of fact Stego was also supposed to be stronger than Deino in a direct confrontation

[golden coral]

Granted we have Sauropods so there is that, but still. And no, stego should not be a herd animal, its like trike or anky, and should be treated as such.

I don't think any of the large/"apex" animals should come in more than pairs, + babies when nesting.

[hollow canyon]

They haven't been able to introduce the tug-o-war mechanic before Deino was released and the last update made Deino have a decent shot at killing a Stegosaurus, nevertheless it's pretty clear based on the changes introduced right now and the earlier statements from the devs that Deino is not supposed to have the upper hand in a direct confrontation between the two.

[wide cosmos]

If deino plays positioning right it still have good chance against a steggo. To me they seem pretty well balanced against eachother

[hollow canyon]

I'd be very surprised if Deino handled Stego well atm

Based on the changes to both of them I'm quite certain Stego should have the upper hand atm

[wide cosmos]

Scope did deino vs steggo machups last night, seemed like it was 50/50

[hollow canyon]

Do you have a link to that by any chance?

[wide cosmos]

Either steggo or deino survived with one hit from dying

[golden coral]

On land, shoreline, or under what circumstances?

[scenic heron]

Land

[golden coral]

Well thats rather atrocious then, here I thought land deino was finally fixed :p

[hollow canyon]

@flat apex The stamina cost upon getting up is caused by the fact that you're using the "quick-get-up" which isn't how you're supposed to be getting up from the resting position by default. As for Carno's stamina - it's not meant to have a very long run-time at all. The Isle-wiki is created by a person not affiliated with the developers at all. They are just a fan creating it based on the available information and a lot of the information there is either obsolete or outright refers to the legacy and not the new branch of the game.

[scenic heron]

At least pre patch, I haven’t played the newest patch

[hollow canyon]

We're talking about the new patch

[scenic heron]

Ik

[primal token]

Utah nerf? Ahhh so a new dryo species is being created! yaaay another creature that flees from everything cool... New roar is sick tho!

[wide cosmos]

https://www.twitch.tv/scopeog/v/1116503881?sr=a&t=17616s
Go to 4h 50min mark

[hollow canyon]

Thanks

Looking at the first fight I'd say this doesn't look good for Deino at all, it got to get the first bite off and Scope kind of messed up in the beginning and yet he still killed the croc.

I'm going to watch a bit more of it but..

"Unless you're absolutely stupid you're not dying to Deinos" is a statement that I'd agree with

[primal dove]

@flat apex if u hunt ai and can´t pin/knock it down u have to bite it once and let it run, it will stop after a time, repeat until it´s dead

[cedar shore]

@crystal wharf carno main?