balance-feedback-discussion

[sinful cove]

Also sometimes you may want to migrate to a different water source, your vulnerability should be enough of a deterrent from going inland too long

If deino cant alt bite many times then he is vulnerable to being harassed and killed especially by groups while far from water, which is how it should be, and likely enough if a deterrent especially if he has faster thirst drain

[slim dragon]

There are other ways to prevent deinos from going inland than making them literally die from bullshit cancer

[ocean wagon]

I mean

Thats how crocodiles work

[slim dragon]

Yeah but it's a game

[ocean wagon]

Yeah I agree with this, but only depending on how much they nerf deinos ALT bite on land

[sonic needle]

The thing is if they realy nerf the Alt Bite then they should Buff the Biteforce. its kinda weird that such a Big Croc cant oneshot a Utah. Normaly it just would brake all there Bones with one Bite. You guys need to know that the Deino had double the Biteforce as the T-rex. So the T-rex was not the one with the Strongest Biteforce. Somehow for realism i realy Hope that they buff the Biteforce from such a Big Crocodile. As i sayd its just weird to bite something Way smaller then you (Utah) and dont crush it with one Bite.

Thats when they open there Mouth to cool of if its to hot. But irl Crocodiles can be under water for a few Hours but thats also not the Case in the Isle. You can only stay under water for idk 3 Minutes? For my Opinion Deinos should be able to stay longer under water.

[sinful cove]

Deino doesnt need a bite force buff, its drown essentially oneshots almost everything

It needs to be worse on land and have more water sources, thats it

[ocean wagon]

Twice? Thats....im so sure about that

[sinful cove]

Also the “deino stronger than rex bite” is utterly useless and well know info, gameplay trumps realism

Deino is supposed to grab and drown, it is supposed to be an ambush predator

[sonic needle]

More Water sources yes but the T-rex is not the King of the Biteforce, mabey in his time from all the Land dinos yes but the Deino had almost double of his Biteforce

[sinful cove]

And?

Gameplay > realism

If deino had realistic bite force it would be immortal in game

Its already extremely easy to survive against everything but your own kind as deino

It has the bite force it needs to carry out its role

[ocean wagon]

I was about to say, realistically your only threat as a deino are other deinos. Deino is only meant to drag things under and drown them. Giving them twice the bite force of rex is only going to promote them to stay on land even more

[sinful cove]

If anything, its massive bite force should be expressed with fracture damage in the future rather than raw damage buffs

The same can even possibly be said with rex depending on how they have its gameplay planned

[ocean wagon]

Thats why I really don't mind that they don't 1 shot utahs because with fractures, the Utah won't be able to run way so either way its a death sentence if they get bit

[sonic needle]

True and also with the Fracture system. But do you think that the Deino is going to be able to Fracture multiple Bodyparts with one Bite?

[lament cloak]

keep in mind, bite force in this game is just damage. rex probably had a more devastating bite, compared to crocs who are meant to grab things and not outright kill with their bites

[sinful cove]

A utah should get massive frwcture from an 8 ton croc bite yeah

[ocean wagon]

Yes exactly

Theyre dead either way

[sonic needle]

yeah

I also think if a Baby Utah bites a Adult Croc do you guys think that the Croc should be bleeding or not. For my opinion NO 😄 realy hope that they rework the bloodsystem a little bit

[ocean wagon]

Juvi Utah shouldn't give bleed to larger dinos

[sinful cove]

Theres a good suggestion about that in balance feedback pretty recently

[ocean wagon]

Juvi Utah biting a deino is like a human biting a rhino

[sinful cove]

Its pretty annoying that a poodle sized juvie raptor can deal bleed to a 6-8 ton animal with just a bite

[ocean wagon]

^^^

[sonic needle]

ok but you Guys are defenetly right about the Biteforce. Forgot that the new Fracture system is going to come out soon

you mean a 6-8 Ton armored Dino 😄

[true sonnet]

I just got hit by a teno tail slam on my tail as carno and it did 1/4 of my hp dont think thats intended or am i wrong?

[lament cloak]

that is very much intended, don't get hit by a tailslam

oh on your tail, im not sure about that

mb for not reading correctly

depends, if its the base of your tail, 1/4 doesn't seem too bad, if its the tip of your tail then no

[sonic needle]

I realy hope that Rules come soon for every Server. hate it when you swim around as 2 Deinos and get killed by 5 of them

[lament cloak]

official servers won't ever have rules, certain unofficials already do

[sonic needle]

rly?

[lament cloak]

yeah, the "rules" will be built directly into the game as mechanics, such as diets. you might be a pack of 5 deinos, but there won't be enough healthy food to go around so those 5 deinos will be weak

but there won't ever be any extra rules that have to be enforced by admins or anything

[sonic needle]

ok so Mixpacking and Overpacking is always allowed

[lament cloak]

its allowed, but you are most likely going to be very unhealthy and weak

so it will be very very discouraged, but there isnt a way to stop it completely

[sonic needle]

aah ok what do you mean by weak? Do they less damage or hae less HP then or how can i understand that

[lament cloak]

your stamina and health will regen slower, you might have less stamina, im not sure, but I think your damage might not be as high. you might move slower. im not sure about all of those, but that is the gist of it, unless you fulfill your diet you are going to worse than someone who does fufill their diet, and over packing and mixpacking will make it hard to fulfill your diet

[sonic needle]

true huh thanks ^^

[wintry anchor]

tbh I think we should wait till fractures come out before we start suggesting any nerfs or buffs because we don't know how they will change everything up

[sonic needle]

true but i also think that Humans shouldnt be in this Game. For my Opinion its a waste of Time. Imagine Growing a T-rex in the Future for 6 Hours and then come Humans and shoot you down. This is a Horror Game not a shooter. But we will see whats coming

[sinful cove]

I hope rex isnt only 6 hours too lol

[alpine plover]

Hopefully they’ll make apex killing weapons super hard to get

The base/regular weapons should do little to no damage to apexes

[sonic needle]

I also think that they shouldnt have unlimited suplise of Ammo. If Humans had to Hunt for Survival Food/water... then its ok if they have normal Weapons. I think Apex Killing weapons shouldnt be in the Game. Imagine growing your rex for idk 9 Hours then comes a Group from Humans and shoots you dont in seconds.

down*

[alpine plover]

it's all going to pure tough survival.
You're going to be searching across the whole map just to find ammo

And you’re going to die. A LOT.

[jolly osprey]

It would actually be stupid for those humans to waste ammo on a Rex, unless they had no choice. Remember, a gunshot might scare a Rex, but it’s a damn dinner bell for those Raptors.

As a human, I’d ignore apexes and large herbivores completely. It’s the smaller dinos who are a bigger threat.

[sinful cove]

you know isle players though lol, theyll kill a rex or brachi or something if they can even if it will likely get them killed in return, assuming that after your ammo is out you have nothing else much to lose

if anything, it should be hard to hit the vital spots and reward precision, punish bad aim

[jolly osprey]

Oh, indeed. I don’t doubt there will be people who will still do it. But, hey, if they want to visit the character select screen then they can be my guest.

I’ll let them feed the raptors 👌

[alpine plover]

Gonna love the merc players that waste ammo on herbivores that literally did nothing to them just to get eaten right after

[jolly osprey]

😂 There’s nearly no reason for a merc to shoot at a herb unless it was something like a Galli trying to kick them.

Tribals (correct me if they changed the name) have a valid reason as they’ll probably use the horns of a Trike or thagomizers of a Stego. Not to mention food.

Assuming Mercs won’t need herbivore meat, there’s no need to waste ammo.

[sinful cove]

mercs may need dna or need to tag nested dinos for missions though, who knows

idk if the thing where spawned in dinos have tracking chips while nested dinos dont is still planned

[jolly osprey]

Oh yeah, I heard of that. Them being dropped down in cages or something like that.

[tawny iris]

Posting this here as it seems more appropriate and the one I posted on #evrima-na (please check out the whole discussion for more context, #evrima-na message) has sidetracked, making the whole conversation more about stream sniping and the risks that come with streaming than the actual point. The issue is whether or not constant stream sniping is harassment, and as common sense rules like no racism or hate speech in chat apply (a type of harassment), should hateful behaviour (targetting a specific player repeatedly, fully knowing who that specific player is, either through a hack or stream sniping) NOT be tolerated as well? Tagging @harsh jetty specifically for this (#evrima-na message)

[ocean wagon]

Well im like 99.9999% sure that the server owner will be able to disable humans

[alpine plover]

Unofficial servers will be able to turn off humans

[ocean wagon]

Yeah

My only problem i that could potentially see with humans is that since this is a video can players can just go on a hunting spree for larger(slower) dinos without any caution for their safety because its only a video game

[alpine plover]

depends

[ocean wagon]

Yeah I won't go so into detail because we don't really have that much info on humans and how they'll work

[alpine plover]

Humans shouldn’t have to worry about apex’s much. They can outrun them and can just hide in a building, run into a forest or literally hide in a smaller cave.

It’s the things that can catch you humans should worry about

[sonic needle]

I mean some Dinos grow for a few Hours thats why i hope that Humans dont just spawn with weapons. I hope that they also have to search for ammo/weapons, food also for a few hours.

[alpine plover]

what about like a small pistol with very limited ammo?

[sonic needle]

thats ok. If they have to hit Vital spots to even do good damage

But if Humans rly have to search for weapons and co then there is always the danger that they get spotted by a Utah Group or get snatched from a Croc if they get water

[alpine plover]

Devs said they have to go out and look for a majority of stuff

[wintry anchor]

i pretty sure a dev said all weapons are only really gonna do damage if you hit vital spots and your just going to find things that make it easier.
(such as a scope or an automatic weapon) but i don't think it will do any extra damage

at least thats what i hope humans are like

[alpine plover]

Well, human and apex confrontation is definitely inevitable. eventually you’ll need some sort of weapon to kill them. If I remember correctly there will be certain weapons to stop them. But of course they’ll be rare. It wouldn’t be really fair for a merc to get a apex killing weapon as soon as they spawn in. The ammo would probably be non existent.

There certainly should be some weapons to at least stun or fend off some of the big baddies, but at the cost of loudness and the waste of the ammo itself. Base weapons should be fending off smalls like utah, Troodon ect.

[tacit oriole]

@vale harness I disagree strongly that deinos are easier to grow than stegos. If I play the afk bush meta, getting stegos to 100% is pretty reliable. - you have the whole map to hide in. I've died plenty but only because I run around like a puppy instead of hiding. Deinos, on the other hand, only have a handful of places and cannibals or fishing carnos at pond will eat 10 for every one which makes it to adult.

[tacit oriole]

Would be neat for humans to be able to set traps to deal with apexes (e.g. logfalls & spike pits) like Ewoks in starwars

[alpine plover]

[proper gull]

@alpine plover Pesky had the same problem with like a herd of at least 15 tenos and he was soloing them if thats what your refering to then yeah carno needs more stam or less drain

[oak wind]

Carno uses too much stamina

Everything has too much stamina imo and should be nerfed on that so people do not keep running all the time.

But Carno shouldn't have the best stamina out of all animals.

anyway it should be humans.

[hollow canyon]

It's more like Tenonto has way too much running time mainly. Clearly more people are noticing this as time goes on.

[alpine plover]

Yeah except in this case I don’t wanna solo a bunch of tenos if I know I’ll be outmatched. Then I can’t even run away which is what I’m supposed to do

[vale harness]

deino can grow really at any water source. it doesn't need to be shallow. if it gets into trouble it can just run and hide in the water. stego doesn't have that liberty. deino has the same option as stego, to afk in a boosh. the only difference is, stego can't run into the water when it's in trouble. its like comparing spawning at northeast with a stego and camping, to spawning at south and trying to grow there. deino doesn't have to stay around the cannibal adults. it can afk in a bush just as well as stego.

[tacit oriole]

What you need to remember is the biggest threat to deinos is other deinos

and they cannibalise a lot these days

So yes they can easily escape other predators (away from pond, at least) but the survival rate is still abysmal compared to smart stegos

[hollow canyon]

Growing either of those two is relatively easy. Honestly growing a Utah is probably about as difficult as growing either a Stego or Deino.

[tacit oriole]

you can bush afk but you will still get eaten going for water

[hollow canyon]

The only difference is the time you have to invest

[tacit oriole]

and if you are bush afk... I'd rather be able to run than swim

[hollow canyon]

Stego can't run from anything though, if it gets spotted it just dies.

[tacit oriole]

you can juke in the bushes if you are good but yeah, I've not survived a chance encounter with a utah yet

[hollow canyon]

Idk what you'd have to be juking in the bushes to survive that encounter as a Stego... I mean maybe Deino that's simply slower than you?

[tacit oriole]

fair

[hollow canyon]

In my experience both are pretty much effortless to grow, although I haven't grown a Stego in ages since I find it an atrocious and boring playable.

[tacit oriole]

If Deino had a north-west spawn up spikey river, or even arches, they would be a lot easier to grow

pond is rarely safe, and has a bad route to good waters... mid is 50/50 getting eaten trying to get anywhere, south isn't much better

I've had all 3 spawn points on cooldown as a deino haha

[hollow canyon]

I disagree since people would be spawning there and actively going for those areas. Deino probably should have more spawn-points either way though.

[tacit oriole]

One up the top of spikey, one up arches, one down near log falls, add something for them to eat in swamp, doneskies

[hollow canyon]

I think centre spawn is the best but I can usually make it work with the southern spawn as well. I never use the swamp spawn because that whole area of the map is just awful for Deino in my belief.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, agreed, south is a trap and shallows is a nightmare under FG

Also to be fair it took me a long time to start logging in bushes, so @vale harness probably has a point

Friday night isn't a good night for me to be trying to hold a serious conversation on here... sorry haha

[wild cove]

Honestly if you know what areas to go to, afk growing something like a stego or teno is stupid easy. There are certain areas utahs, carnos, and deino just don't go to where there's food and water for herbis.

Its even funnier because the places that are great for afk growing herbis are also food jackpots for deinos and pteras, but no one is ever there lmao

[ocean wagon]

literally, stego's hunger takes forever to go down, all you need is grass and a close by water source. stego is very easy to grow

and yes teno for sure needs some type of stamina nerf. it being able to run across plains without having to stop is too OP, especially since its a decently fast dino. Sure its not faster than carno or utah but it has enough stam to run laps around them and catch up to them.

[sinful cove]

To be fair thats what wallowing is for, i doubt you would be too far from a water source that you cant wallow lol

[hollow canyon]

Unless your animal is a Deino I don't see why you'd have to be that close to the water. There's more to the map than just the waterways. There's just 0 reason why Tenonto should have this much more running time than Utah and Carno.

[tacit oriole]

For stegos, I'd like to see wallowing take longer to apply but also take longer to wear off. Get into a fight, run to river, wallow, lay down, and you are often still bleeding when the wallow runs out.

Either that or significantly reduce the de-wallowfication when laying down

[oak wind]

Wallow shouldn't be a thing for large animals

That's my take on that

They should have other ways to block bleed tbh and wallowing to block bleed is pretty stupid tbh.

[ocean wagon]

Well mud actually does help the body clot wounds regardless of the animals body size

Obviously not to the isle's extent of stopping large scale injuries

[crystal wharf]

fun fact, it doesnt completely stop bleed anymore, you can still bleedout when covered in mud

[tacit oriole]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure we tested that, and it stops all bleeding but does not increase bleed heal rate. I'll check it again tonight though.

[hollow canyon]

From what I recall it's been nerfed during one of the patches released after update 3. It used to stop bleeding completely but it doesn't anymore I believe.

[ocean wagon]

Yeah it doesn't stop it completely. I killed 5 utahs on my carno the other day and I was bleeding bad, went to go wallow and i saw that my screen was getting dark after a bit. Then I wallowed again and I started healing bleed

[tacit oriole]

Hmm, interesting

Bleeds are locational (tested that) to maybe some locations don't get clotted by wallowing (e.g head)

[spare badger]

They changed it so that you still bleed when not sitting
Now you bleed more when running than walking than standing
Only sitting after wallowing completely stops bleed

[tacit oriole]

Ah, that's how we missed it. Thanks.

[hollow canyon]

Does it completely stop bleed if you sit down?

[hollow canyon]

Yea, that's what I mean

[tacit oriole]

Yeah sorry had a brain fart - yes

[hollow canyon]

If you've wallowed and sat down, does that completely stop the bleeding?

Nice, good to know

[tacit oriole]

Even walking around you don't lose that much

[vagrant inlet]

All these salty carno mains are forgetting to use mud lmao

[sinful cove]

Right?

[vagrant inlet]

I’ve been chased by Tenonto’s and Utahs all the time and i’ve never been killed in that scenario

[sinful cove]

The only way a carno gets screwed is if it already burned all its stam

[vagrant inlet]

^

[sinful cove]

And this is the same for every dino matchup

[vagrant inlet]

And that’s just player incompetence really

there’s literally water, and thus mud everywhere

[sinful cove]

Yeah its not like some carno wasting its stam and getting killed is any loss to a server either theres like 30 carnos on at any given time in an active server

So its clearly not an issue to grow and maintain them with tenos around

[vagrant inlet]

There’s even some mud on the plains which is literally Carno’s homefield advantage

[sinful cove]

Isnt there a big ass pathway in the middle of the map with mud or did they remove that

[vagrant inlet]

Honestly can’t remember

But I think there are tiny slivers of random mud throughout the plains

[sinful cove]

Plus tenos have to stop to sniff so if you csnt get away as the fastest dino in the game that has a 50:50 matchup with the teno then L better luck next time

[vagrant inlet]

Basically

[sinful cove]

Ik ive randomly stumbled across mud far away from water too yeah its everywhere

[hollow canyon]

Those are in certain places but I don't believe there are any in the plains.

Plains aren't Carno's homefield at all. That's Tenonto's homefield.

[sinful cove]

Plains are carnos homefield tho

[hollow canyon]

You literally shouldn't be in the middle of the plains as a Carno if there are Tenontos around as that will get you killed.

They aren't though, they are the best place to hunt Carnos as a Teno

[vagrant inlet]

A pack of Utah’s I can understand being a challenge for a carno to escape because they’re faster than teno and can sniff while moving. But that’s still easily survivable and completely balanced

[hollow canyon]

Literally killed 2 Carnos there the last time I've played the game

[sinful cove]

Most carnos have burnt popcorn IQ

[vagrant inlet]

^

[sinful cove]

So not surprising

[hollow canyon]

So do most players in general

[sinful cove]

This is fair

[vagrant inlet]

Your point tho?

[hollow canyon]

doesn't change much - Carno needs to be around 75% stamina for Tenonto to run it down

Depends on the location, it might need to be lower if you're closer to the tree line

Also depends on whether you can get some bleed onto the Carno

If you do then running it down should be easy peasy

[sinful cove]

It does take more skill to fight with teno than carno tho honestly. Most tenos i see get ez baited into slamming when youre 10 yards away lmao

[vagrant inlet]

I mean that’s on the carno

[hollow canyon]

It really doesn't take much skill to fight with Teno - I'm pretty bad with Tenonto and I can still typically take out a Carno 1 on 1

[sinful cove]

For you to get bleed on the carno it has to engage you first or be a total buffoon who is unaware of its surroundings

[vagrant inlet]

^

Also mud stops blood trails on the ground iirc

So mud can still be used to escape

[hollow canyon]

Yes, it's about making it to the mud

[sinful cove]

And if it engages you first and it outmatched then it chose to take the risk of wasting some stam and getting run down by an aggressive alower herbi

[vagrant inlet]

There’s more than enough mud on the map

[hollow canyon]

If you're in an area where there's mud you might not even need to use it to get away

Mud isn't in the area that you describe as Carno's homefield

The plains are pretty void of it, you need to get to the central river or the shallow river to get to mud from there.

[sinful cove]

I know ive found patches of mud in the open areas when i was creeping around on ptera

[hollow canyon]

In general I'd suggest you to play some more Tenonto and see for yourself how easy it is to hunt down Carnos with a Tenonto

[sinful cove]

In the area with the palm patches

[hollow canyon]

Those are on the map but I don't think I've ever seen those in the southern plains

Tenonto is in general one of the best picks on the current patch

literally effortless growth

[vagrant inlet]

That’s not evidence of Carno being shit at escaping Tenonto that’s evidence of Carno’s having the average iq of a turnip

[hollow canyon]

requires very little skill, good at moving around, having one of the top mobilities in the game

[sinful cove]

I typically couldnt because almost any time i see a carno its in a group

[hollow canyon]

I attack groups too

like 4 days ago I've killed two Carnos with another Tenonto before we went down to the pack.

[sinful cove]

Damn they must suck if they lose a 3+v1 with a teno lmao

[hollow canyon]

It's not like Tenonto takes any effort to grow, I just run them at the first thing I see around

Nah, it was me and another Tenonto there

Also not all the Carnos were fully grown

[sinful cove]

Well thats fair enough I suppose

[hollow canyon]

It's just that when there are two Tenontos the moment the Carno gets CCed it's getting sent to the character select

So the moment one of them got hit with anything it just went down

I did die later on btw - then again I was kind of hurt when that fight was starting since I fought some Utahs before that

Then again Tenonto isn't really worth healing locked HP with as far as I'm concerned

it's so easy to grow I'd rather grow a new one rather than wait for the locked HP to heal

[sinful cove]

A carno ‘nerf’ to a real small game hunter can wait til pachy and galli are in imo

Then it will have dryo, pachy, utah and galli which is a decent array of preferred targets

[umbral inlet]

@steel whale I think creatures that are as large as or larger than deino should be the only ones with a small chance of escaping and fighting deinos bite grip.

Lol I always find it hilarious when ppl say carnos hunt Utah’s. Currently, I’ve found the easiest prey for a pack of hungry Utah’s is a lone carno. A well organized pack can hunt two adult carnos if they know what they are doing.

[hollow canyon]

Utah can first of all easily survive a Carno that tries to hunt it. You might be unable to kill it but there's no way you're dying to it if you play the game correctly and to your strengths.

[steel whale]

But carnos are somewhat as big as deinos

[hollow canyon]

They are nowhere near Deino's size

[ocean wagon]

Literally if youre running in a straight line, juke them out to the side and they're going to go sliding 10 yards trying to turn with you

Carno are not comparable in size to a deino

And as a Utah youre supposed to use your environment to escape a carno. Utahs can easily kill a carno in the forest by doing hit and run tactics while using the bushes to escape

Tenos can destroy carnos and same goes for stego and deino

And I find it very hard for you to die to a carno as current dryo

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that Carno has decent match ups against Utah and Teno currently. It's not outstanding by any means but it's where it should be I think. Stego and Deino aren't good targets unless they're bad or you have a lot of other Carnos with you.

[ocean wagon]

^^^

All a good teno has to so is round house kick a carno and tail slam it to death

My only problem is that Carno can bite through rocks, but they're fixing that

[hollow canyon]

You should just about survive that with a little bit of hp by the time you start running away most of the time as a Carno

Sometimes you will go down to a single combo but that's down to being unlucky I'd say.

[ocean wagon]

Thats if the carno has a bad reaction time to running away after the stun is finished

In most cases you should be able to run away

[hollow canyon]

It's not even about that - if Tenonto lands a headshot with its kick and then tailslams the Carno over the head the Carno will go down before it can run away. This doesn't really happen very often though.

[ocean wagon]

That too ig

[tacit oriole]

Carno vs teno vs utah is fine imo. Utahs need numbers or skill or terrain, but they should have numbers advantage with their short grow and low food. Tenos vs Carnos just comes down to skill, and many new players pick big carnivores aka carno as their first so it's no surprise that most dunno what they are doing, or don't manage their Stam and get into fights 3/4 drained

Tenos could use a small nerf simply because of how comparatively easy they are to grow and how normal it is fort hem to get help from stegos and the like

In an even matchup the herbivores should have longer grow times than their matching carnivores, ideally, but they are also trying to encourage more herbivores by making them easier to grow (e.g. grazing)

[alpine plover]

@cedar shore How do you expect carno to survive? It's already fine

It's easy to counter by playing well, in my experience.

[sinful cove]

The only real problem with carnos rn is that there are several large packs of them on any active server but thats not an issue with the animal itself for the most part

He shouldn’t be altered until more small game is in

[ocean wagon]

the only nerf teno needs is its alt claw attack spam

other than that imo is pretty ok

[tacit oriole]

claw spam only works against really distracted people or in packs, at which point they'd be dead with kick spam anyway

[vagrant inlet]

@alpine plover
That’s not a balance issue because only bad Carnotaurs get run down by Tenonto’s, that’s just natural selection at work

[cedar shore]

Tell me 1 good strategy for taking down a carno

[vagrant inlet]

U talking to me?

[golden coral]

Take down a carno as what?

[hollow canyon]

A single Carno? There's multiple approaches for that. A Utah pack can take a Carno out(easily if they're good at Utah). Don't think I have to explain how. A group of Tenontos can run one down if they catch it in the plains away from water. They can run it down regardless if its far away from water or not if they're in a mixherd with Dryos that scout for them. Deinosuchus kills Carno the same way it kills pretty much every other animal so that doesn't require any further explanation. Stego can't actively hunt down Carnos but at the same time it can kill a Carno easily if one decides to mess with it.

Carnos do become problematic when they are in large packs(which I personally think Carnos shouldn't be in at all - I believe Carno should be mainly played solo or in small groups of 2-3). Those packs will very likely end with the next update when Carnos can't just go on living on by cannibalising their fallen comrades.

[vagrant inlet]

Cannibalism is in the next update?

Oh wait just realised it’s a part of diets

[alpine plover]

Carno should be able to do its job with running away and not fighting it. currently if I try that ill just get run down from Tenantos obsurd stamina doesnt matter how fast I go if Carno has shit stam I cant do much

[vagrant inlet]

Mud

[versed rune]

aside from nerfing teno's stam, i feel that giving carno better trot stam regen and a faster trot in general would help solve the tenos being able to oustam carnos thing without actually having to touch teno. as much as i feel teno's stam is a bit crazy right now buffing something else as compensation is almost always better than nerfing something else

[alpine plover]

Carnos trot feels unbelievably slow for some reason. For an animal that uses pure speed for combat it just doesn’t feel right. It’s trot animation also looks pretty wonky for a nearly 2 ton predator. It makes it feel…what’s the word? Floaty? For an animal that large it should at least have some sort of weight put into it. Make it feel like a large animal you know?

[ocean wagon]

Now that I think about, isn't teno supposed to be a dino that sticks around swamp/Marsh areas?

[sinful cove]

supposedly its where his preferred food will be

and yeah carnos trot is kinda pathetic. rather than nerfing teno, carnos trot should just be less shit

it should be nearly as fast as teno's trot and not some slow chicken walk

[ocean wagon]

Well if its a swamp based dino, why are they treating it like a horse on steroids

I dont mind it being a brawler

But why so much stam for a swamp dino

[alpine plover]

Current balancing I suppose

[sinful cove]

a swamp dino would probably need decent stam as well to get through all the muck and water areas and have some stamina to spare, it wont just be in the swamp all the time either

teno will probably have to worry about deinos a lot when diets are in

[ocean wagon]

Yesh but not to the extent at which tenos stam is rn. Because currently it's stats make it seem like its more of a plains creature who would need a huge stamina pool to run in the open field from predators. The current swamps aren't that big to the point where teno will be exhausted trying to cross over to the small islands to reach their food. Ntm teno has a pretty good swimming speed

Besides I doubt that their food will be in places like those small islands most of the time anways. Teno mostly has to worry about deino whenever they go to drink, but the same can go for any medium sized land dino

[sinful cove]

depending where the swamps and marshes are situated on the new map, open plains may still be a part of teno's regular living space, but we'll see

[ocean wagon]

Teno should be more like a water Buffalo than a horse is what im getting at

[hollow canyon]

I don't think swamp affects the stamina drain much - it's not like you burn additional stamina while wading through the deep water.

And Tenonto's stamina isn't just "decent" it's quite a bit better than that.

[fossil radish]

@devs About How fast do you think the peachy will be?

Pachy*

[stark knoll]

dont attempt to ping the devs. please read our #rules-and-info

[fossil radish]

okey

[alpine plover]

Attack it?

Most playables carno is meant to fight can punish it HARD

if it fucks up, which is very easy to do due to its trash mobility.

[cedar shore]

Its got high health high damage and highest speed? Idk how you can really punish it "hard" for fucking up unless you are a teno

[alpine plover]

You can always just scroll up and looks at akens wall explaining how

[cedar shore]

The main problem is that carnos has a group limit of 5 which feels unstoppable

[alpine plover]

Teno has 8?

[cedar shore]

yeah still

There is hardly ever that many tenos running around in a grp

[alpine plover]

And teno can basically one shot or nearly one shot carno.........

[cedar shore]

Not if the carno is yknow, good..

[alpine plover]

That has to due with how boring herbie gameplay is

[cedar shore]

still, carno needs a grp limit nerf back down to like 3

[alpine plover]

So you're saying good carnos never get caught by tail slams? That sounds like it has to do with bad tenos more then good carnos

[cedar shore]

Never said that

[alpine plover]

You just did

[cedar shore]

Good carnos can avoid it well but not completely ofc

[alpine plover]

"Teno can one shot or nearly one shot carno"

"Not if the carno is good"

This is saying that tenos tail slam (the attack that can one shot or nearly one shot carno) can be avoided by "Being good"

Even the best carnos can get caught by teno tail slams because of desync

Which has more to do with bad teno players

If you let a carno juke you out it deserves the kill

I don't see a issue with good carnos being able to hunt tenos

It makes sense that you would be rewarded for being good at the game

dumbing down gameplay because "I cant ez kill big horn dino" makes the game worse

[cedar shore]

I dont really got time to discuss this rn but yeahh, carnos are a bit too strong..

Most experienced pvp oriented players agree

[alpine plover]

How

[alpine plover]

They don't?

[cedar shore]

they do

[alpine plover]

Both of them are literally around the same weight too. So it’s not really one sided. Carno can slap teno in the open fields, teno can slap carnos in dense jungles regions

[cedar shore]

Ive talked to a lot of them

[alpine plover]

I have to, they don't.

[lament cloak]

carno is fine as a brawler rn, there isnt enough small game to hunt so being a small game hunter is out of the question. though that should change when there is more options for carno

[true sonnet]

Carno are strong how i have played a lot and know almost all the carno population is stupid including me 😋 dumbest dino players

[lament cloak]

its only problem comes with it being to easy to sustain a megapack of carnos, but diets will help with this since you can't stay strong off the corpses of your dead packmates

[true sonnet]

Where does that standart come from?

Its only a measure compared to something else

And the dmg calculations is totally different id wiki is right than in legacy so you can compare but does not realy add much

[cedar shore]

Ive got like 300 hours on evrima and done a lot of pvp testing with mrD bear and his grp and yeahh carnos, very strong, especially against utahs

[alpine plover]

Why would carno not beat utah?

Carno is MADE to hunt things utahs size?

[true sonnet]

A utah that explans everything

[alpine plover]

Ya know, "Small game hunter" and utah is small game

[true sonnet]

Utah the most op dino for its growth

[cedar shore]

I said especially dude jeez

[true sonnet]

Its the same growth time to petra

[cedar shore]

Utah will be OP once the fix the pounce prob

[lament cloak]

utah grows in 75 mins and ptera grows in 45 mins

[true sonnet]

Once they fix pounce its not op its broken

[true sonnet]

Realy thought 60 to 75

Did they change that

[alpine plover]

I wouldn't mind 1v1ing you @cedar shore if carno is apparently "'overpowered"

[cedar shore]

They are gonna do rework on the stats on every single dino in the next update so i think we will be fine

[cedar shore]

Yeah sure im down for that

[alpine plover]

Sweet, on tacoisland btw

[cedar shore]

I havent played the isle in like 2 months though

Im just waiting for the updates n stuff

[true sonnet]

But back to the point of carno to high dmg for brawler why must the stats of legacy be used just give the supposed brawler dino 500 bite force or something

[lament cloak]

who said anything about legacy?

[cedar shore]

what are you on about? Never said the stats of legeacy should be in place, also it never even did 500 dmg in legeacy?

[true sonnet]

He said legacy

I win

[cedar shore]

what dino should i go?

[cedar shore]

when

[true sonnet]

I smart 😆

[alpine plover]

I'll play teno, you carno.

Then I'll go utah

[cedar shore]

allright

I used to main teno back in update 2

good times

cant find the server though

[alpine plover]

Just search taco

and look for tacoisland

[cedar shore]

Idk why we are doing teno vs carno tbh they got a really even matchup

[lament cloak]

So how is it broken

[true sonnet]

No we need to nerf utah 👍

[lament cloak]

"this matchup that is supposed to be balanced, is balanced. therefore carno is broken"

[cedar shore]

I mean i never said its downright broken however its got a good matchup against every single dino rn so its by far the best playable in the game currently

[alpine plover]

It doesn't have a good matchup against stego?

I main stego actaully, I wouldn't mind going it after our tenovscarno 1v1

[true sonnet]

Have you seen carno vs steg or carno vs deino almost always 2 die

[cedar shore]

nothing comes up when i search taco bruh

[alpine plover]

Weird.

Screenshot?

[lament cloak]

it gets craped on by deino, teno v carno is an even fight, the only way to fight a good stego is by abusing a bug where you can bite its tail and the stego can't hit you back.

[cedar shore]

If you are in a coordinated grp you can take down a stego as carno, ive done it several times, not easy but possible

[lament cloak]

its supposed to destroy utah and everything beneath that is pointless to talk about

[alpine plover]

Not true.

[true sonnet]

And if you get 4 utah its even better than 4 carno

[alpine plover]

As a good stego, I body carnos.

[cedar shore]

Prob, super coordinated carno grps are pretty damn rare

[true sonnet]

But why is legacy standards still used? It only makes the bigger dino’s weaker

[cedar shore]

Man im gonna be so rusty at the isle lmao

[cedar shore]

lets start man

[true sonnet]

Oh the one who wins is op so let the teno win 👍

[lament cloak]

wtf are you talking about?

[cedar shore]

no lol

[true sonnet]

People say 350 bite force is to high becaus in legacy that was not the case but why must legacy be the rule for stats and according to wiki the dmg calculation is diffrent and if you would still follow legacy al the bigger dino’s get nerfed

[cedar shore]

what are you smoking

[lament cloak]

nobody says that

[true sonnet]

What do you think

[cedar shore]

idk weed

[true sonnet]

I smoke olf

[true sonnet]

If only that were true

[alpine plover]

You found the server?

[cedar shore]

yeah idk where you went man

[hollow canyon]

Carno has a "good" match up against like Dryo and Utah. It gets more complicated when there's more than one Utah fighting it though. Match up against Tenonto isn't really good at all, it's winnable but one mistake can send you to the character select if you mess up. Carno's probably the worst animal to try to kill a Stego with in the entire game so that match up is hardly good either. Deino>Carno unless it's a solo Deino out in the middle of nowhere against multiple Carnos. Overall it seems to me that you're implying that Carno is too good while assuming that there's more Carnos than the things that Carno is fighting in most of those cases.

[cedar shore]

but its getting late i gotta hop off

[alpine plover]

I left a long time ago because of how long you were taking lol

[cedar shore]

bruh

[hollow canyon]

To say that Carno "destroys everything" in the current game is just... misguided to put it mildly. This isn't update 2 anymore, we've had 2 updates since that time.

[true sonnet]

What about nerf utah?

[hollow canyon]

Idk, Utah first needs to have the overhaul of its pounce which is coming with the next update before anything can be said about it further. I personally think it's going to be very good if not outright too good as the dismount on pounce is the only thing holding this animal down really.

But that's just my impression, we will see how it actually plays out with the fractures, new pounce and diets in the game.

[true sonnet]

If you can get safely away from the stego with pounce the stego is doomed

[hollow canyon]

I also think so, with the bleed ramped up on pounce so much with update 3 the pounce is more lethal than ever(the only issue is that it's currently lethal both to Utah's prey and Utah itself).

[true sonnet]

Well we will se should be fun

[sinful cove]

stego getting shit on with upcoming changes yet again?

[ocean wagon]

Carno has a terrible match up against dryo unless its a player Carno vs dryo AI

[hollow canyon]

"Good" as in - its risk of dying there is rather low. I do agree it's pretty awful at hunting them unless they try to kill it yea.

[sinful cove]

carno has a good matchup against an afk dryo lmao

[hollow canyon]

Against Tenonto your chance of dying is really high, I've just killed a Carno in the dumbest way imaginable as a Tenonto

I've sat down not realising I was right next to a Carno and it started biting me on my head - it landed three headshots after which I've landed a kick on it and killed it in one combo.

The match up might be even but I wouldn't say it's a good one for Carno

[sinful cove]

carno's best shot on a teno seems to be to ambush/charge it which honestly is how it should be

if you land a charge the fight is in your favour

i dont even bother fighting tenos othwrwise because im a coward lol

[hollow canyon]

to a certain extent yea, although even after landing a charge you can still get comboed from 100 to 0 if the Tenonto lands a kick on your head after getting up

In general you can land 2 bites on a Tenonto before it gets up in my experience, the third one will get you CCed

in that case you still need to take out half of the Tenontos hp when it's already up. I wouldn't say it's a bad match up for Carno but it's definitely very risky.

Aside from that idk if Carno has any "good" match ups. Utahs are a fair game but they really shouldn't be dying to you if they know how to Utah and they can kill you in a pack. Dryos can't kill you but you can't really kill them either. Deino and Stego aren't really on the menu unless you're in a very large pack.

[ocean wagon]

I really don't see where people get the carno vs teno match up to br a 50/50

Its so easy to kill a solo carno as a teno

The carnos charge attack is useless if they don't have the element of surprise

But let's be honest here

No carno player understand the element of surprise with them 1 calling every 3 seconds

All a teno has to do is literally run up to the carno, round house kick it

Then break its back with multiple tail slams

The 50/50 match up narrative needs to be changed to 40/60

[frosty heron]

I've never died to a Teno as Carno yet but I don't have the opportunity fight them as much as I want, most fights is just attempts to make Teno waste its stam with baits so you don't die straightforward after being hit by a Stun attack

If I find a group of them (which is the case almost everytime) I leave the area of course, I'm a rat

[hollow canyon]

Yea there aren't that many situations where you can 1v1 a Tenonto as a Carno(and same goes for the vice versa). It's pretty much always 1v2+ no matter which side I'm on. As Carno the go-to approach is to separate the Tenontos as getting CCed in the range of both of them is certain death. As Tenonto I typically try to nuke down one Carno and eliminate it from the fight asap but it is rather difficult to pull off 1v2.

[tacit oriole]

Good carnos will fight tenos like Utah, going for hit and run. A good teno will still consistently beat a good carno 1v1 - carno has to get at least 4 perfect attacks, teno only has to land one kick or slam and gg

I'd like to see teno alt-turn speed dropped a little bit

Interestingly though teno should win 1v1 going to say 3v3 seems a bit more even if the carnos work well together

[crystal wharf]

@vale harness alright
explain to me why you want the devs to waste time and money on an attack nobody would use
alt attacks lock you in place
hypsi only survives because it moves during a fight
a slap with hypsis tiny ass hands would be at the very best useless
why

[sinful cove]

If hypsi stops to channel an attack like that it is gonna fuckin die

[vagrant mural]

me, a hypsi, taking on an animal 4 and a half times larger than me with a giant spear for a face with my tiny little baby hands

[crystal wharf]

hypsi already does that more than well enough
the fact that its possible to 1v1 adult pteras and juvie utahs is insane
given that hypsi has zero weapons on its body

look at these deadly weapons
how dangerous

[vagrant mural]

Amazing

[alpine plover]

ha look at dem nubs

on a serious note, hypsi is, in function, a glorified pheasant (minus the flight capabilities of its avian analog). Either spit at the face of an attacker (not really a good idea) or make a run for it. Oh and you can jump

[crystal wharf]

spit is actually useful if you play evasively
if you hide near enough to your attacker and spit at them then you can bolt easily

[wild cove]

Honestly I'm just imagining two hypsi's having a boxing match like some rodents do lol

[tacit oriole]

I think they wanted it to kick like a chicken, not claw like a teno/Utah alt bite

[wild cove]

I mean if "social emotes" having to do with challenging a member of your own species becomes a thing, like "sparring" or whatever, I could see Hypsi's having slap fights with each other as some sort of "fighting for dominance" Hypsi emote

But as an actual combat utility, yeah, not useful enough to even consider probably

Just two hypsi's slap fighting each other like gerbils lmao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agiuJe8xvZs

[lament cloak]

@hollow canyon you clearly don't play tenonto much, because any decent carno will bait your tailslams out super easy. kicks are way easier to land as long as its not a dumb carno running right into your tail.

[hollow canyon]

I do play both Tenonto and Carno - I think I got hit with a single kick while fighting Tenontos so far since Evrima got released. I've also landed just one kick on a Carno(which happened yesterday).

Tailslam has a far better range and AoE of attack. The only good thing about the kick is that it can be used while moving.

And that's the point - you won't be baiting out tailslams easily when the Tenonto has 25 of those at its disposal.

[lament cloak]

this right here is why the kick is way easier to land

[hollow canyon]

That's if you're running after the Carno perhaps. If you play defensively the Carno would have to actively run into your legs to get hit with that.

[lament cloak]

nearly all my stuns come from kicks because a good carno won't get hit by a tailslam 9/10 times, and I can't afford to use that many slams

[hollow canyon]

Then again - I barely ever use kicks in general, their only strong suit is for chasing others down and the fact that they have a low stamina cost.

[hollow canyon]

You would be able to use that mane slams though, that's the basic point of that suggestion

[lament cloak]

so out of a full bar of stamina, I will land 2-3 tailslams if I get 25. nice.

thats not even including any of the stamina I use to sprint either

[hollow canyon]

That's... a pretty awful aim tbh.

[vale harness]

"waste the devs time and money" my guy what. 1, this doesnt have to be in update 4, nor does it have to be a thing, just seemed cool. 2, thats their job. 3, this would be all animators, whos job is basically done right now as pachy's anims are basically all fully rigged. i didn't say it should be able to f up a ptera, just said it would be able to fight it. and proportional to its size it does have claws, if hypsi has claws the size of tenos i'd be worried. hypsi needs a buff, so heres an idea. still dont get how thats 'wasting the devs time and money' like what?

[lament cloak]

no, your just playing some really bad carnos. which makes sense because thats what most carnos are, but if you fight against good carnos like dashark. you might land 1 of every 10 tailslams, like I said

[hollow canyon]

The alternative to that is to simply nerf Tenonto's tailslam damage output which I guess would work.

[lament cloak]

or just leave the most balanced dinosaur as it is

with some slight changes

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto isn't even close to being the most balanced dinosaur

Again - look at the video posted by Dashark there. Do you call that balanced?

[lament cloak]

what do you think is the most balanced dino? dryo who is immortal? carno who just spams lmb? stego who gets killed in 6 bites to a carno? deino who spams alt+lmb? hypsi who is just a terrible dryo? utah, ptera, and teno are the most balanced creatures

[hollow canyon]

Carno obviously - it has clear weaknesses and strengths as the only animal in the game.

[lament cloak]

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto who's the only animal capable of taking out either another Tenonto or Carno with a single combo before the other animal recovers from the CC it applied?

[lament cloak]

yes, I do call that balanced. that carno was absolutly terrible. carno can do the same thing to teno, if you land a charge, the fight is over. you lost

[hollow canyon]

No, it's not

[alpine plover]

Is there any difference between lmb and alt + lmb?

[hollow canyon]

Carno can't kill a Tenonto before it recovers

Tenonto can kill a Carno before Carno recovers though

It can do the same to another Tenonto too

and will be able to do the same to any animal lighter than it

[lament cloak]

this is just wrong

[hollow canyon]

You literally saw a video of that happening

I did the very same thing yesterday

[lament cloak]

that carno didn't move because it didn't click wasd, a kick stun can only stun for about 2 tail slams, 3 if your lucky

[hollow canyon]

it lasts three tailslams

It didn't move because it couldn't move

If you think that this Carno just chose to die there then you might be the one that needs to play these two animals a bit more.

[lament cloak]

again, I have done countless fights against dashark, the kick stun only stuns for 2, and 3 if you get lucky.

your just denying things that I have tested over and over

[hollow canyon]

Yes, you've tested that with Dashark who literally posted the video that denies what you're saying.

I've also done it on both sides - Tenonto can land 3 tailslams on a Carno assuming the Carno is behind it when it gets CCed.

[lament cloak]

im done talking to you lmfao

[hollow canyon]

Likewise, I don't think you can be helped if you think that one animal taking another one that takes longer to grow before its opponent can react is balanced. There's a reason why the cooldown on Tenonto's CC was put in there after update 2 was released - specifically to avoid that.

[alpine plover]

It's just a discussion, chill boys

[hollow canyon]

And again - if you have a problem with that then the kicks stamina cost could be left where it is while tailslams damage and stam cost go down.

You can then use both attacks a lot before running out of stamina while not taking out other Tenontos or Carnos in a single combo.

I'd even say that the kicks damage could be brought up to the level of the tailslam while letting it have as many kicks as it does now and it would be less devastating than it is now.

[golden coral]

To be fair, Dashark is not special. I won 1 out of 5 vs him, with 25 fps, and being rusty AF as tenonto and as player in General at that.

Just saying, its rarely a good argument to say this player is so or so good. In most cases, theyre not half as good as they might think.

[hollow canyon]

I'm not doubting Dashark's prowess as a Carno. I'd rather like to know which part of the balance changes that I've proposed there do you see as a problem, Piggy? Is it the decreased damage on the tailslam or the increased stam cost on the kick? Because it has to be either of those two I take.

[ocean wagon]

You shouldn't be using your tail slam as a teno unless you've already stunned the carno with your back kick

IIRC teno can use their back kick over 25 times and their tail slam 10 times

[hollow canyon]

I think it's 25 times

exactly 25 times

[ocean wagon]

Yeah something like that

But still if the teno player is good it doesn't matter how good the carno player is

Its just not a battle you're winning in a 1v1

Unless the carno has already landed a charge stun on you with several bites

[hollow canyon]

The funny thing is I had a fight yesterday where I sat down in a bush before realising that there's a Carno right next to me. It landed three-headshots on me while I was getting up and then died before it could even move as I landed the kick on its head and tailslammed it to the death.

Tenonto is just really powerful, I don't consider myself a good Tenonto by any means and yet I quite regularly kill Carnos with it.

[ocean wagon]

Just more examples as why the whole "its a 50/50 fair fight" narrative needs to stop

Tbf carnos would be a lot more successful if they played the dino how its supposed to

As in, stalking their prey, crouching and actually ambushing

[hollow canyon]

It is the most sensible approach to playing a Carno right now although I wouldn't call Carno an ambush hunter due to how much noise it makes and how it gives out its position while using the charge.

[ocean wagon]

Ehh

Even though plains is rather.....open, there are a lot of hills to ambush unsuspecting prey from

Like the reason why carnos can't ambush their prey most of the time is because theyre 1 calling to signal more carnos to mega pack with

For example I ambushed a pack of 3 utahs in the plains the other day. They had no idea I was stalking them and I was able to charge one and killed the remaining two

[hollow canyon]

True although to be fair it's kind of hard to draw any conclusions from what happens on the servers simply because people can just do the most flabbergasting things. I've had some Utahs that were sitting in front of me on top of a hill while I sat down in front of them with my Carno. I was low on stamina, I've regenerated it and charged them while they still kept on looking at me and of course got hit by the charge.

Idk if that counts as an "ambush" but in a way they did get "ambushed" I suppose.

[ocean wagon]

Lmfao

Well thats just more so their fault tbh

Carnos charge is very easy to avoid if you see it coming

Ntm you have to be running at full speed for a few seconds to launch it

[hollow canyon]

Yes, I think that might just be one of the main issues with its use as an ambushing tool - you can't just sit in a bush close to something and launch it from there. You have to back off a couple of steps and then start running and use the charge as you pass the obstacle behind which you were hiding.

[hollow canyon]

@lament cloakI actually think you might be right about Carno not being killable in the timespan of a single CC. I've just had a fight where I fought three Carnos and I've landed only two tailslams during the stun now.

In which case I don't think Tenonto would really need any changes to its attacks.

Then again I'm not sure why Carnos sometimes get hit with three tailslams in that timespan.

[ocean wagon]

Im hoping tenos ALT claw attacks drain stam too

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that's necessary tbh. It deals a very low damage for an attack that would drain stamina and is only usable while running.

[ocean wagon]

If utahs ALT attack requires stam drain then so does tenos

They are essentially to the same thing

Teno is also larger and is throwing its entire body around. Being able to spam that with no real drawback is OP their claws deal a decent amount of bleed

[crystal wharf]

all alt attacks should cost stamina
deino at the highest
utah drains second highest because its moving the farthest with its alt attack

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't mind if Tenonto's alt attack had a stam cost if it dealt more damage than now but its damage is not very impressive at all so if you just slammed some stamina cost on it it would make the attack pretty much worthless. iirc it does ~200 dmg compared to 110 on the bite?

[frosty heron]

I wouldn't say 1/4 of Utahs health is "low damage" for a fast 360 spameable attack

It's kills an Utah in 3 with locked health, deals more than enought dmg, also bleed

[hollow canyon]

Are you sure it's 1/4th?

I think it's closer to 1/5th but tbh I haven't tried killing a Utah with those.

[frosty heron]

Hell I am, it took 1/4 of my health with a body hit

It should be 3 with a single headshot

[hollow canyon]

No, I mean - have you tested it by attacking a Utah with those enough to kill it?

[frosty heron]

I got hit by it and I checked my health afterwards, it was 1/4 100% sure

[hollow canyon]

Because there's a big difference if it takes exactly 1/4th or almost 1/4th. It adds up another attack if it's below 25%. I haven't tested it either but when I let a Tenonto attack me to see how much damage each of the attacks did when landing a bodyshot it seemed to take out 20% of my health.

[frosty heron]

And I can go test it whenever I can, I'm still pretty sure it's 1/4 Utahs hp on body hits

[hollow canyon]

How much of a stamina cost would you give it though?

Because quite frankly speaking if it's comparable to the kick then it becomes useless as the kick does more damage and CCs the target(although one could argue that it's a bit harder to land due to the fact that you can't turn with the mouse while using it).

[frosty heron]

That really depends, it's not as devastating as a tail slam but the attack is really good, should drain the same amount as Utah alt least

[hollow canyon]

I honestly have no idea how much Utah's alt bite costs. I use it occasionally but I've never paid attention to the cost.

[frosty heron]

It's not an attack you can really bait and get free hit afterwards, it's fast, recovers fast, shouldn't be so spameable

[frosty heron]

That's I thing I would test and note next time I play

[hollow canyon]

I think Utah's alt bite uses 2% stamina atm.

I'm playing Utah right now and just started spamming it and landed something like 48 before I ran out. Might be slightly more than 2% since it wasn't just 50 and I was regenerating stam while attacking.

[frosty heron]

Problem with Utah alt it's being so fragile it doesn't has a real use without risk, I use it sometimes when Tenos chase me to land headshots on them but the recover of the move is worse than usual bite + keep moving out

Also, don't use it on Carnos, it will kill you xD

[hollow canyon]

I use it mainly against smaller targets e.g. Hypsis

[frosty heron]

Yeah that's the idea about that attack, catching smaller things

[ocean wagon]

I wish teno could use its ALT claw attack 25 times and its back kick 20 times

That seems like a balanced stamina drain imo

[wild cove]

Carno actually doesn't make that much walking noise unless its literally already right on top of you.

They make even less noise if they're actually crouched and sneaking up on something, especially if they're actually using bushes and tree lines / not open plains to sneak up, which tbh is probably what they should be doing anyway since their preferred prey going by the concepts are Hypsi, which are supposed to find safety in trees and bushes.

Just saying as having been on both sides (hunted and hunter), Carno is not that hard to ambush with if you're not just running around hilltops spam calling 1 and mindlessly charging around the map.

I've wrecked an entire pack of adult utahs as a carno before just by sneaking up and ambushing them while they got water and weren't expecting me, and they weren't bad fighters and gored my side a few times before I managed to kill them off. Literally all I did was crouch to get closer and charged in at full speed lol

[hollow canyon]

This isn't true at all - I'm not talking about "walking". I'm speaking specifically about running which does make quite a lot of noise and can be heard easily if you're paying attention. And Carno HAS to run if it's to use the charge as you need to reach your full speed to even trigger the charge. That's why I'm saying that you should start running before you reach the bushes that you're hidden behind otherwise you will be noticed by any person that is actually paying attention to the game. If someone doesn't notice a Carno that starts charging they have only themselves to blame as the animal makes a very characteristic noise when it uses its ability. And I've wrecked entire packs of Utahs too, as described above, sometimes by "ambushing them" while they were looking straight at me, that just doesn't mean much.

[vagrant inlet]

Then what’s the issue? If you managed to ambush more than one pair of eyes while at least one of them was looking straight at you then clearly being loud doesn’t affect Carno’s ability to hunt much

[hollow canyon]

I think you're missing the point - the fact that I ran at raptors that were looking straight at me and yet that still worked as an "ambush" doesn't meant that Carno is good at ambushing stuff. Just like someone killing a Deino that doesn't use alt bite or buck with a Utah doesn't mean that Utah is somehow a good counter to Deinosuchus.

[wild cove]

Teno, Stego, and Deino also make a crap ton of noise when sprinting.

Utahs make less but still noticeable noise when sprinting at you.

Pretty much the only things that don't make a lot of noise sprinting / charging at another dino are baby/juvie dinos and small Hypsi and Dryo.

Hell, Teno sounds like a freaking train coming at you

Again, if the issue is "players see/hear Carno coming from miles away while running around open fields", then don't rely on open fields? Even a player who's paying attention can get blindsided if someone is playing smart enough.

Also pretty sure the point of ambushing is... to not go at someone who's ready for it.

[hollow canyon]

Neither Teno nor Stego are claimed to be ambush hunters while Deino doesn't have to "run" to ambush something(admittedly I've done that with Deino too but that still doesn't make Deino a terrestrial ambush hunter, it relies on water to perform that function).

I don't know where you're getting the open fields from? You don't have to be in the open fields to be heard? Sound doesn't work that way.

[wild cove]

Point being, when something big is running full tilt... yeah, its going to make a lot of noise.

Carno is one of the two fastest dinos in Evrima. The only things it really has competition for keeping pace with is Utah and/or Dryo. Its faster than Teno. A LOT faster than Hypsi and Stego, and on land, Deino.

There really isn't that much reason why a Carno can't successfully ambush most other players except they're just not playing them that smart.

And no, I don't mean "ambush" exclusively as using their charge attack. Biting also counts as ambushing.

[hollow canyon]

My point is mainly that Carno isn't at all designed as an ambush hunter in the current game. It can do that but it's still rather subpar in that role.

In all the honesty Utah is a far better ambush hunter, although it mainly works against targets up to ~1t rather than 1.8t.

[wheat field]

I don’t even understand the argument here

[wild cove]

I guess the argument is Carno can't be an ambush hunter because it makes noise when running at full speed?

Idfk

[wheat field]

How is this at all relevant to balance

[wild cove]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-jakethedog-adventuretime-idunno-idk-gif-7391243

[alpine plover]

Carno is an ambush predator because it’s fast and has poor stam, doesn’t need to have a quiet run to ambush

I guess

[wild cove]

I mean the whole point of an ambush is you get as close as you can, then burst out at high speed that overwhelms whatever is running away from you. Being silent while sprinting isn't exactly a requirement. Getting close enough not to have to chase, and being able to run something down if you do have to chase it, is what its supposed to be by design.

The main problem is most people aren't playing Carno's preferred prey because there's not much benefit or fun to playing something that gets 1-hit-KO'ed by everything with little to no defense or chance of escape outside of the other player being bad at their chosen dino.

[hollow canyon]

Yes - with ambush hunter you want to get as close as you can. That's not how Carno works though - you do not want to be too close to your target as a Carno because you need to create some distance between yourself and your target to use the charge.

I don't get what you mean when you say that most people aren't playing Carno's preferred prey either. I'd say that the Utah population is pretty high.

[ocean wagon]

Oh ok, I see where you're both coming from ig. Carno imo needs a rework for its charge ability. Atm you need a lot of running space to activate your charge. Which kind of defeats the "ambush predator" build if you have to expose yourself in the open for a while to activate your ambushing ability. So if carno is going to be marketed as an ambush predator, the charge ability should sorta of be like how ambush was in legacy. But if this were to be added to the game, a way to balance it would be to increase the cool down for the carnos charge ability so it isn't used as a tool of combat like how it was in legacy. If you miss your charge attack on your potential prey item, that should be the end of the hunt because it was a failed ambush.

When it comes to carnos foots steps, I think they're fine?

Its a decently sized animal, noise is kinda inevitable

[hollow canyon]

Pretty much what I was getting at, yea

[wild cove]

Utah isn't Carno's preferred prey by design though. Hypsi and Dryo are. It just happens that most people end up playing Utah. So most Carnos hunt Utah because there are a lot of them.

Because frankly most people don't want to play Hypsi or Dryo outside of trolling.

Also again, Charge isn't the be-all end-all of ambushing. Hypsi dies to carno if it gets bitten once. Dryo isn't much better.

[ocean wagon]

Tbf

If the utah is a decent player

And has a good amount of stamina

The carno shouldn't be able to catch the Utah

Utah is just too fast

And agile

[wild cove]

Right. But Hypsi at least isn't anywhere near fast enough to outpace either Carno or Utah. At all.

[hollow canyon]

Where do you get the idea that Hypsi and Dryo are Carno's preferred prey items? The one concept art that shows Carno holding a Hypsi?

[wild cove]

...it was literally stated by the dev's to be a "small game ambush hunter", i.e. Hypsi

lol

[ocean wagon]

Oh yeah hypsi is currently dog water atm

Like it seriously needs to be revamped

[wild cove]

And Carno and Hypsi were released together specifically because of this

[hollow canyon]

Aka Utah

even Cerato was stated to be "small" by the devs

[ocean wagon]

Wait, cerato is small? I thought it was a medium sized carnivore

I-

[wild cove]

Hypsi was released next to Carno in Update 2 specifically as Carno's main prey option

They didn't just do it because "oh people clearly want Hypsi"

[hollow canyon]

Old roadmap that outlined potential future additions had this to say about Cerato:
"small carnivore"

[ocean wagon]

I think carno will be waaay more Viable once more smaller game is available

[hollow canyon]

Hypsi was added simply because a lot of people wanted it and it has been in the works for quite some time.

Do you have any dev statements that state that Hypsi is Carno's preferred prey item or is it just your intuition at this point?

[ocean wagon]

For carno to rely on hypsi rn is ehhhhh imo.

[hollow canyon]

It's outright impossible, Hypsi weighs 20kg. That's nothing for a carnivore that weighs almost 2t.

[ocean wagon]

Yeaahhh

[hollow canyon]

"small game" doesn't mean "Hypsi and Dryo" every animal up to 1t was called "small" by the devs when they stated the sizes of all the playables that they thought about adding.

Diablo was also "small"

(not to mention that Carno is actually outright atrocious against Dryos which die to it only when they actually try fighting it)

[ocean wagon]

But, not everyone in the isle plays their dino correctly. So a good carno might be able to out play teno that spams its tailslam as its only defense

[wild cove]

The problem with Dryo is they made it faster than Utah and Carno because its "special defensive ability" is basically useless in actual practice.

Similar to Hypsi and its spit

Both Dino's were given special abilities to avoid being eaten that don't actually work outside of theory

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto hasn't been stated to be a small I think but I vaguely recall a statement from one of the devs(Dondi?) that Carno will be the smallest animal that Tenonto won't be able to send running just by looking its way.

Either way - Utah is literally the small game that Carno is meant to hunt. It's possible that this also includes Dryo and Hypsi although I think it's quite absurd to let a 1.8t theropod survive by hunting things that small.

[wild cove]

Depends really. If people actually played Dryo and Hypsi more, then yeah it would actually make sense. The problem is most people don't play them and between Dryo and Hypsi, only Dryo has AI you can hunt, presently.

Dryo is in a slightly better spot playability-wise right now, though admittedly its somewhat broken it as well.

Hypsi however, there's really no reason to play it outside of trolling (or really hating yourself). Its spit is useless in a chase situation, and getting into trees is so clumsy you can't even do it most of the time even if nothing is chasing you. Rocks are only slightly better for escape but you have to full stop to get your full jump height and actually get onto rocks that are safe from other dinos, because you lose most of your jump height while running. And on top of that it dies in 1 hit.

I mean Hypsi is my favorite on the roster so far but actually playing it is crap atm.

If it was actually worth playing enough that other people played it more, it would be a viable food source alongside Dryo. But its not worth playing in any serious capacity.

[hollow canyon]

My point is that those aren't the primary prey items for Carno - they are merely the smallest things it hunts. It was depicted going after everything starting from Hypsi through Dryo and Herrera, Galli and finishing with Tenonto.

All of that(maybe aside from Tenonto) is small game.

[wild cove]

Also forgot that I've heard Utah and Carno can reach Hypsi in trees right now anyway too

[hollow canyon]

Although to be fair Carno's in game design doesn't make it a good small game hunter at all.

[wild cove]

I mean that's kind of a difficult argument to make when it doesn't have small game to go after

lol

[hollow canyon]

It does though - the only non-small game animals in the game are Deino and Stego really, all the others are not that big really.

[wild cove]

Not small game as species anyway. Baby and juvie dinos technically count

[hollow canyon]

I guess they could although every animal is quite a bit weaker when not fully grown

[wild cove]

Most baby / juvie dinos are about what I expect fully grown small game like Troodon and Hererra to be like tbh

[hollow canyon]

Troodon is generally tiny, Herrera quite a bit bigger and again - Galli also counts as small game. Cerato I don't think will work as that small of an animal and it may have to be upsized but who knows.

Dilo is also small game

The only non-small game animals are things like Deino, Stego and... perhaps Magy/Kentro/Cerato

I don't think Carno has any business hunting Kentro though

[wild cove]

Right. Point being, Carno will probably fill its niche better when it has more options.

The main problem is the Isle devs need to make small game actually worth playing, but still make it worth hunting that dinos that are supposed to hunt them can actually survive.

Gore and scavenging should be able to help with that though

[mint ledge]

An interesting mechanic for the smallest creatures would be the formation of tunnels/trails in thick and/or spiny vegetation (such as wild blackberry patches). Many modern small creatures form such trails to escape from predators easily. Predators, like Carno and Utah, would have to catch their prey before it reaches the vegetation.

It would also add something for the tiny creatures to do, especially if the tunnels/trails require maintenance.

[wild cove]

That's actually not a bad alternative to burrows/tunnels. Having some kind of spiny thickets

[sinful cove]

Why does utah need a bite buff lol it already solos stegos with bites alone and its getting a pounce buff

[alpine plover]

I mean, I would be fine with a utah bite buff. They just need to make stego not inconsistent

[hollow canyon]

While it might be possible to solo a Stego as a Utah I don't think it's that common of an occurrence.

[sinful cove]

The fact that its pounce is getting easier to use and it can solo s stego with bites due to how poor stego's attack is really makes a bite buff entirely stupid as an idea

Even if the average utah player is a moron, any utah that knows it can juke stego's shitty jab will destroy the stego

[frosty heron]

Pounce buff? Pounce fix*

[alpine plover]

yeah pounce should’ve been fixed from the beginning

if you jumped on a stego you would just instantly die

[frosty heron]

Also a bite dmg buff wouldnt hurt anyone since its confirmed that Stego is getting an HP buff

Althought I think Utah dmg its alright

I just wish they didnt reduced its HP, worst decision ever

[alpine plover]

yeah, not sure if I’m a fan of it either. I get it it’s sorta tanky for its size but. It’s pretty damn squishy already

I believe it’s getting a size nerf too correct?

[frosty heron]

Tanky? Current carno murders it on 2 shoots if it gets a single headshot, and Teno murders it instantly

[frosty heron]

Yeah from 500 kg to 450 kg buts thats for Pachy balance

So it doesnt get pinned when pounced

[alpine plover]

I guess that makes sense

[frosty heron]

Another stupid idea considering Pachy headbutts it once and Utah its dead, or almost dead, I would had prefered some kind of buck for pinned pounces

Or at least, when Pachy miss a headbutt it gets stunned for couple secs

[alpine plover]

I just hope they don’t make utah completely inconsistent. Although pounce is its main feature. It shouldn’t only rely on one mechanic

[sinful cove]

It is a fix, but that technically buffs its functions from what it is now

It doesnt need a bite increase

[alpine plover]

Pouncing was definitely good for killing other utahs though

[frosty heron]

Update 4 it will be full of Carnos, take my word

[alpine plover]

Always and forever. Unless Allo or rex comes out I suppose

[frosty heron]

That wont happen in a long time, my only hope its Cera

[golden coral]

Pinning too good, pouncing had issues. I hope there will be something for pinning, at least utah on utah

[alpine plover]

I feel as if cera isn’t going to be played as much as carno

I’m supposing there may be a buck mechanic when pinned

[frosty heron]

Pinning is stupdly OP , but think they made it for the purpose of catching a Dryo which is kinda hard to do

and they didnt balanced it right torwards Utah vs Utah

or even small carnos

[golden coral]

Possible. It would be nice if there was a bit more counterplay, better way of infighting and all for utahs at that then

And deino should have a proper tug-of-war but, that might be a way off yet

[hollow canyon]

The key thing is that "small" carnos really means subadult Carnos that can be twice the weight of a Utah. Same goes for Tenontos. Utah just pinned animals much larger than itself for no reason.

[frosty heron]

Wouldnt be the case on Update 4 as that is also nerfed

No more sub carno pinning

[hollow canyon]

What else is getting nerfed about the pounce? I thought that was the only thing getting hit with a nerf and the rest were buffs to this mechanic.

[frosty heron]

Nothing except pinning, just the dismount being fixed, nothing yet to be fully confirmed as I want to really test that new pounce and making sure youre out of the range of the attacks

So Utah gets:

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's fair, I think that overall pounce is going to be much better against the larger stuff.

It does get the hp nerfed though

[frosty heron]

Fixed Pounce +
Pounce pinning rework -
Less HP -

[golden coral]

Not sure the pinning rework should be a minus, should it not be neutral? Fixed pounce is a good thing, less HP remains to be seen if it matters if you can avoid getting hit in the first place.

[vagrant inlet]

How much less hp?

And is it true that it’ll get 1-shot by a pachy headbutt?

[golden coral]

I think it's more along the lines of a carno charge, it won't 1-shot itself, but you'll be knocked on your ass so it can probably finish you off

Could add a "get up quickly" at the cost of massive stamina, so you'd better pray you don't get knocked down too far away from a way out, at least from a carno charge, or that fractures will cause you issues there even if you do get up so you still have to work to escape

[hollow canyon]

No, that seems absurd - Dryo was said to have survived the headbutt on the video that was posted in phase 2. I don't see why Utah should be getting oneshot by that in that case.

[ocean wagon]

Why is the carno ALT bite so fast

[hollow canyon]

Every alt bite is fast

[ocean wagon]

Its genuinely doesn't make sense for the carno ALT bite to be that fast in the stream

Carno isn't a fast turning dino

[hollow canyon]

It turns fast when its standing, it only turns poorly while running.

[ocean wagon]

Carnos ALT bite turns way faster than its default standing in place turn with little stam drain. Utahs ALT is slightly faster than its stand in place turn speed, with an appropriate stam drain

[frosty heron]

It gets 2 shooted but 1 headbutt leaves you stunned for couple secs, yet to see if you can combo that with another charge to kill

[frosty heron]

Minus means nerf, plus is buff

And avoid getting hit really depends on netcode , not only player

[primal dove]

why can´t a pinned utah try to cut the pouncing utahs belly with it´s talon?

[primal token]

Hey guys, the other day I heard someone say, that it was possible for the utah to ride a deino behind its back legs. (With the knowledge of alt bite btw)
Can anyone confirm this?

[primal dove]

u can if it doesnt know alt bite

[primal token]

I mean if it knows

I cant believe this myself

[versed rune]

i also dont know why everyone is always asking for a carno bite force nerf? its damage is only high by legacy standards. the current biteforce functions fine against the current roster. it 3 shots utah with body hits, iirc it 3 shot utah in legacy, too. as for tenonto, both carno and tenonto can dish out a ton of damage to each other and turn the tide of the fight in their favor if they land their signature move. We dont even know how carno's bite force will compare to other mid tiers like allo and cera either so i don't see what the problem is.

[vagrant inlet]

The Carno of the current game is probably not the Carno of the future game. Same with Stego tbh and probably every dinosaur.

Every animal has to be stretched to fill more niches than they really should and either be stronger or weaker than their original intent, simply so the roster isn’t balanced.
With that in mind i find it pointless to really talk about Carno’s biteforce as it’s the only fully terrestrial carnivore over a tonne, it’s not going to look the same 1 year from now.

It may not be hard confirmed by the devs but imo simple logic dictates that Carno is the only carnivore, apart from a river locked crocodile, that can challenge Tenonto’s and sub (60-80%) Stegos solo

[ocean wagon]

From what I remember reading about carno, it’s bite force was pretty big. Nearly twice as much as allos. So if anything ervima carnos bite force is already nerfed compared to its irl counterpart

[sinful cove]

To be fair, irl doesn’t really matter in the long run

Its short face makes a higher bite force make sense, but for its role it doesn’t necessarily need a high bite force

[vagrant inlet]

People pick and choose when irl suits their argument

Not an attack

[sinful cove]

If we had realistic bite force then deinosuchus would be splitting everything in half lol

[vagrant inlet]

An observation of this discord

[sinful cove]

If it looks fine and makes sense and is good for balance then it works

Like currently a deinosuchus biting a utah in the face and the utah running off looks stupid which should hopefully be fixed with fracture, buit would not be good for balance for it to be realistic. Carno hunting small game looks good, makes sense and is good for balance even if its bite was stronger irl

[ocean wagon]

Not saying carno should have it’s irl bite force I’m saying it’s bite force rn is good because it had a relatively decent bite force in general

[primal dove]

how about utah getting 200N like in legacy? 130N is kinda low , a fresh hatch deino already does 75N which is kind of stupid in my opinion. I mean it would be justified since utah is getting some big nerfs with the next update

[hollow canyon]

200N would be absurdly high for a Utah in Evrima.

It had 200N in the legacy because there was a weight system, meaning that this damage was decreased against larger animals

You'd be killing a Stego with something like 10-13 headshots if it had that high of a biteforce.

If anything its biteforce might be getting a nerf but we aren't sure about that

[primal dove]

i mean its weight gets reduced and it´s hp so if we talk about the matchup against stegos they can 1 shot u now even if it is a bodyhit and u deal less dmg bc u have less weigh

also utah has been heavily nerfed with the last few updates show some love to it

[lament cloak]

weight does not affect damage in evrima

[primal dove]

ahh wait nvm

[lament cloak]

also stego already kills utah with a body hit

[primal dove]

no, u actally surivive with like 10% hp

tested it :3

[lament cloak]

that is a base of the tail, you will die with a body hit

[primal dove]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugz47nkaWJ7Ct1DB-0p4AaABCQ

i know this was before update 3 but it´s still the same

[hollow canyon]

is that the MrDbear video?

[primal dove]

yea

[hollow canyon]

He made a mistake there

hit the base of the tail

I believed that too but Utah does actually die to a bodyshot

[primal dove]

how does the stego hitbox work actually? i mean its spikes are like as big as an utah

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugz90UCI6hY_BtYiF9x4AaABCQ

like in this clip here

at 5:22

did he hit his base of the tail or his actual body?

[hollow canyon]

He got hit there, I'm pretty sure

I'd have to try to watch that in slow motion but I think that was the base of the tail

on the current patch it would be a bodyshot though

Locational damage worked differently back then

[lament cloak]

it looks like the base of the tail but that is update 2, I guarantee you will die to a body shot now though.

[primal dove]

ok might be true actually, since I have fought a lot of stegos in update 3 and it never really looked like that the stego hit my body

[hollow canyon]

Let me just explain what's different between what you saw there and what you see in the current game.

During update 2 the locational damage worked in such a way that an attack that was hitting more than one bodypart dealt damage equal to the first body part that it made contact with.

Meaning that as a Utah you could turn around towards an incoming attack and "catch it" with the tip of your tail, decreasing damage to completely negligible values.

Right now it works differently and an attack that would shish-kebab you registers on the body part with the highest locational damage multiplier out of all those that it made contact with.

Meaning that if a Stego swings its tail and the thagomizer hits your tail, body and the head - it will count as a headshot.

[primal dove]

ohh, well that makes sense

ok, but back to my main question should utah get 200N or maybe a little lower like 175N which is also good or not?

even 150N would be fine

smth between 130N-200N

[hollow canyon]

It is potentially getting a biteforce nerf next patch

All the damage and health values of everything are getting reworked in the next patch so it might be a bit pointless to discuss what they should be in relation to the current stats.

[primal dove]

but why tho? was it really that strong in this patch? was it op?

in comparison to a carno for example which even gets a buff on the alt-bite

[hollow canyon]

That's the thing... it "might be" getting a nerf. It's not certain

[primal dove]

mb

[hollow canyon]

There's a screen showing Utah with a much lower biteforce

We don't have any context for it though

It's possible that the biteforce is seemingly low but not actually that low compared to the damage of other attacks or it might actually be low but due to some other factor e.g. bad diet of the Utah

It comes from a stream I believe

Only time will tell

[primal dove]

true, it´s nonsense getting mad at stuff which might not even happen

we´ll see

[hollow canyon]

Yes, pretty much. I personally think Utah's biteforce is more or less where it should be, its pounce is getting a rather important buff next patch(although the animal itself will get an HP nerf).

[sinful cove]

it is 0 fun if you have to drink and eat every single digit number of minutes lol

dryo shouldnt be easier to catch with a speed nerf either, if it actually uses dodge properyl it should be very difficult to catch, things don't need to be easier for utahs and shit against actually competent dryo players

an improved dryo dodge with a speed nerf should only make the dryo have to do more than just run away in a straight line

[hollow canyon]

It should most definitely be easier to catch considering it's currently outright impossible to catch unless the player controlling it accidentally knocks over their monitor.

[sinful cove]

it should only be easier to catch shitty dryo players

[hollow canyon]

or unplugs the mouse/keyboard

[sinful cove]

right now all they need to do is run, an improved dodge and reduced speed should only make shit tier dryos easier to catch aka the ones who behave as they do now due to their speed

[mental roost]

Why not give the Dyro dodge I-frames so when timed properly, you can outright evade attacks that would've hit, and speed along... ?? Silly? Maybe a little, but it could be interesting and fun to learn when to time the dodge properly.

[true sonnet]

The biggest problem i think utah has is that its good on to many fronts this makes it that a small buff to the stats could make it op and when they try to balance it its stats are so low to compensate for all it can do so you either get a op dino or a super weak one

[ocean wagon]

I disagree Utah is in a pretty good spot if you take its weight/pouncable size into the equation

But both of those are getting fixed in the next update

[mental roost]

I have to disagree massively with nerfing Stego's swing radius.. If you actually played stego, you'd realize how awkward, slow and clunky the attack is.. Deino's can easily kill a stego just by putting their heads up their ass and then it becomes a game of RNG, who can kill who faster.. just 4 headshots(or 5?) and a Stego is done for while in that situation a stego'll probably mostly be getting body shots.. and get out DPS'ed . Stego just needs a new attack that isn't so derpy clunky in the end.

[lament cloak]

@zenith jolt stegos have everything to fear, they are slow and clunky and can get baited out easily, a missed swing almost surely means you get hit in return. a pack of 3 utahs is a relativly even match for a stego of the same skill level, 4 can take one out with relative ease. it takes even less carnos since stegos die in 6 headshots. a deino can also face tank a stego, including when the deino is behind because broken hitboxes allow it to bite a stego head from behind

and since they can't attack upwards even pteras can kill stegos if they don't mess up

[sinful cove]

That stego feedback has got to be a joke right

Stego gets soloed ez by everything but carno

And tenonto i guess

[hollow canyon]

Yeah Stego only handles the mid tiers well. It does pretty badly against small animals. Deino is a 50/50 depending on the circumstances. If it can ambush a Stego and start hitting headshots straight away it will kill it but if it doesn't get a good start it will just die to a Stego.

[mental roost]

-Anyone else feel like if they changed how the tenoto turns when kicking, that the kick'll be even more useless compared to the tail slam??? The Kick's already trickier to hit with...

[hollow canyon]

In my experience the only use for the kick is for the offense - you just run at stuff and do the roundhouse kick to stun them and set them up for the tailslams. Although I guess you can use them when something is behind you without necessarily committing and you want to attack in that direction however don't want to use up much stamina therefore you use the kick instead of the tailslam.

[lament cloak]

you have no idea how much I disagree with this statement

[sinful cove]

Herbivores kos irl and are outpopulated in the isle so they have every right to eliminate threats if the chance arises. they aren't all eat leaf and wait to die

Like ive seen a deer charge through 2 yards to pound on some 30lb lookin dog because it looked at it too long, herbis arent all defense

[spare badger]

I hate it when people say "herbivores have to be defensive"

Do you not know what a hippo or rhino is???

[ocean wagon]

TFW hippos are responsible for the most human deaths in Africa

Big yikes

[sinful cove]

It baffles me how people can think that a faction that makes up a fourth or third of a server is supposed to just sit passively and wait to be attacked

Actually i rarely see an evrima server with 1/3 of the pop being herbi its way less most of the time

[versed rune]

I guess the phrase “encourage defensive gameplay” is meaningless. If you’re a decent teno player then you shouldn’t have a problem continuing to roundhouse kick large predators even with a small mobility reduction while performing the attack.

[versed rune]

and that’s probably because all of the herbies have a big drawback. Two of them are troll dinos, stego is janky as anything to play and needs a rework, and tenonto has been out for over a year now

[lament cloak]

its also the nature of carnivores actually having to kill things to survive, and hebivores can go their entire lives as pacifists

I don't mind a slight turning speed reduction on teno, its got a giant tail and it turns like a pinwheel, but "herbivores should be defensive" needs to die

[versed rune]

I mean I agree to an extent, something like pachy should be more offensive than most other herbivores, but even then his offensive capabilities are ROOTED in the need to defend himself. Just as Cerato will most likely be a relatively slow, defensive tank, but he uses that skill set in order to score a kill. As a general rule, the PRIMARY function of herbivores should be defense, while the primary function of carnivores should be offense. But like pachy and cera there are always outliers and gray areas

[true ginkgo]

Hate the 'herbis need to be defensive' meme.

irl they're agro af, and will kill things for shits and giggles.

[wild cove]

I wouldn't really say so much "for shit and giggles" but yeah. Herbivores can be pretty aggressive.

And there are herbivores that readily eat meat too, scavenging off carcasses or eating small animals, like deer and cows and sheep eating live birds and squirrels, but that's its own whole other topic

Point being though real life herbivores will attack and/or kill carnivores and the like on the basis that "they MIGHT try to eat me"

Most IRL carnivores are pretty chill by comparison outside of when they're hungry or defending their babies

[worldly venture]

@raw sparrow well deino is not balanced but hopefully will be in the next update, as for the oxygen timer I think it would be nice to have it a bit longer due to perks

[ocean wagon]

Literally!

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see herbivores (some more, some less) being able to eat meat for nutrients, but at the risk of getting sick (puking maybe, or diarrhoea, both which would make them easier to hunt)

[tacit oriole]

but also even RP herbivores should kill any carnivores they safely can - less predators = less threat and they do it IRL all the time

[grim topaz]

why are carnos so fking overpowered compared to a pack of utahs

[wild cove]

Because they're literally like 2-3 times bigger?

[vagrant inlet]

A Carno literally weighs 3.5 Utah’s

[true ginkgo]

And carnos take several times as long to grow.

[vagrant inlet]

I feel like if there’s any carnivore that should be “fking overpowered” against a pack of utahs it should be the dedicated small game hunter

[carmine charm]

@raw sparrow yes please buff more Deinos!!!!!!!! They are not OP enough :DDDDDD

#sarcastic

[steel whale]

Yes becuase losing your Dino to a grab where you can’t escape from is balanced (also I know your being sarcastic)

[slim dragon]

@true ginkgo It actually makes some sense because as a juvie, you are less tough than adults. The bones, muscle and skin are not yet completely developed and juvies are overall more frail. So it makes sense that a 500 kg juvie stego has less health than a 500 kg adult Utah. But I agree it should still have more health than a dryo. I wasn't aware it had less, tho

[true ginkgo]

It's also about making juvies more fun and interactive to play. Juvies shouldn't be completely helpless and fragile to anything their size. As that then encourages the meta of sit in a bush afk for hours until growth. If you force them out with diets, the gameplay then becomes purely luck based rather than anything related to skill. The the luck part being if you happen to come across another animal, you can only say 'I guess I'll die'.

Juvies should be encouraged to be active, and be fun when played activly.

[slim dragon]

yes

But I don't think making juvies fun and viable would be achieved my giving them a lot of health. Speed ? Yes. Stamina ? Yes. Special ability ? Yes. Tanking ? No.

[vagrant inlet]

I mean it wouldn’t hurt

Stego isn’t really a fast animal

[slim dragon]

It isn't supposed to be much of a tank either

[vagrant inlet]

I’m willing to bet it’s a damn sight tankier than a Utah at the same weight

If making it tankier as a baby isn’t a good idea in your opinion, what is exactly? You want juvi stego to start running like a cheetah?

[true ginkgo]

Thing is, a 500kg stego matching a utah for health isn't 'a lot' of health.

It's utah level health, which is a small tier. A carno is still going to flatten it, and should flatten it.

[slim dragon]

idk. Better camouflage ? Heightened senses ? Fast growth through the earlier stages of life before slowing down, like deino, so it stays vulnerable for a shorter time ? Ideas are not lacking

[vagrant inlet]

Ah so, make the afk time shorter is your solution?

So still afk

[slim dragon]

Not if you can't afk
That's where difficulty comes in

[vagrant inlet]

But it’s ok guys, you don’t have to do it as long

[true ginkgo]

Difficulty should be achieved via skill, not luck.

[slim dragon]

Then give baby stego a crouch and be skilled at hiding to grow one

Then it can lose its crouch when it gets too big

[true ginkgo]

If all the gameplay comes down to is pure chance of another animal just happening to walk past your bush, then it's just like rolling a dice.

[vagrant inlet]

Let’s make all babies like that then

Yay I can’t wait to go back to hiding 90% of the time

After all

[slim dragon]

Yes, imo all dinos should have a form of crouching or sneaky attitude anyway
Except maybe shant and sauropods

[vagrant inlet]

It was ever so fun in legacy

[true ginkgo]

If a stego is 500kg, it should not have less health than a 120kg dryo.

[slim dragon]

To that I agree

[true ginkgo]

Legacy juvies were poor, but not this bad.

A big juvie could fight utahs for the apexes.

Evidently legacy syndrome was juvies being more fun.

[vagrant inlet]

I disagree

In legacy it was worse

Unless there was rain there was no hiding

Stego vs legacy juvi is just. Who can hide better

[slim dragon]

In legacy you can just grow without doing anything. In evrima you won't be able to.

[vagrant inlet]

Stego juvi at least has mud

But that’s it

Apparently a fat ball of plates isn’t allowed to have 500 health at 500kg

[true ginkgo]

Legacy larger tier juvies could at least fight utahs. While in evrima their health has been nerfed down to sub adult dryo levels.

[vagrant inlet]

Yeah i’ll concede that point

[true ginkgo]

Matching a 500kg stego and deino to utah for health at least allows them to defend themselves when a similar tier animal turns up. Rather than just going to make a cup of coffee while you wait for the respawn screen to appear.

imo a 1200kg stego should be pretty equal with a 1200kg kentro (full adult).

They should play differently and have different abilities, but be similar in overall power.

Likewise, a 1200kg trike should match a 1200kg diablo in power.

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't say it makes much sense. Those aren't mammals we're talking about. Yes, mammals are more vulnerable while young than potentially same-sized adult animals but dinosaurs to our current understand were quite capable of handling themselves from a relatively young age onwards. A 500kg Tyrannosaurus could definitely give a Utahraptor a run for its money. There's hardly any reason why a Stego weighing half a tonne should be much squishier than a Utah.

[slim dragon]

Are you implying that only mammals need to grow and toughen their bones, muscles and skin before adulthood ? There's a difference between being capable and being just a smaller version of an adult

[hollow canyon]

Dinosaurs aren't smaller versions of adults either - they might occupy a completely different niche in their environments. A young 500kg weighing Stegosaurus however wouldn't be necessarily easier to hurt than a Utahraptor.

And as I said - a T.rex weighing half a tonne could very likely give a Utahraptor a run for its money if not outright kill it.

[slim dragon]

Well baby rexes are literally made to hunt things utahraptor-sized
And I'm not saying that a baby stego should be a free meal, just that it makes sense to have slightly less health than an adult Utahraptor of the same weight. I don't really see stego as a tank, neither as an adult or as a baby. Though they could make baby stego into a ball of fat if they want to make it tanker, although I doubt it would make it any more viable

[hollow canyon]

I don't really see much of a reason to make it have less health. It wouldn't be a big problem if it had slightly less but I personally don't see why it should.

And yea it wouldn't make it much more viable either

[true ginkgo]

I don't see stego as a tank. But the reason I don't see it as a tank is because it's only 6 tons. The other 'large tier' animals are all sitting at 7, 8, 9, or more tons.

When compared to other animals of matching weight, stego should have just as much health.

Currently a carno needs a ram and a couple of bites to kill a utah. While the second it even touches a 500kg stegos tail, the stego drops dead.

[vagrant inlet]

Even if a young Stego isn’t that much of a tank

It’s still proportionally chunkier and tankier than a Utah, Tenonto or Carno

[sinful cove]

Utah is literally a bony little goblin but it has so much hp for its size esp at that age

I wish hp was more consistent too

[ocean wagon]

Stego imo is more of a glass cannon rather than a tank

[sinful cove]

That isn't exactly working out well for it

[ocean wagon]

The isle devs threw in the most random dinos who had no evolutionary ties to each other and said "fuck it FFA"

Then gave most of them genetic mutations to make them act like there on drugs

[true ginkgo]

It should be glass cannon due to its weight. Compared to similar animals like trike, rex, anky, or giga. Stego weighs very little.

It shouldn't be a glass cannon next to animals of a matching weight.

[ocean wagon]

ntm its head to body size ratio

like

sure it can deal pretty good damage

but its head is so small and fragile

[true ginkgo]

The entire thing is currently made a glass though. Even the tail.

A carno ramming 500kg utah still takes another couple of bites to kill it. A carno ramming a 500kg stego, even on the tip of its tail, kills it instantly.

[frosty heron]

Glass cannon!? Seriously!? Stego is gonna get HP buff in update 4 and it dies quickly because headshot multiplier, if you consider body multiplier it's actually pretty tanky

[frosty heron]

Yall should know that weight value doesn't has nothing to do with HP, considering how pounce works it will be pretty unrealistic that a tiny 550 kg Stego can't be pinned by a full Utah, weight is a value that affects mechanics not the actual HP

In that case what should be done its reducing that hatchling Stego weight, not make it a challenge for a full Utah to kill

[sinful cove]

Nobody said weight affects hp, it's the fact that an animal who is built tankier and denser has less hp than some bony jp goblin

It just feels bad

[ocean wagon]

You do realize that the biggest land predator is carno, a light weight mid tier. So ofc stego is going to tanky towards the current land carnivores, the term “glass cannon” is referring to stego as a whole against larger threats

[frosty heron]

And still dies to everything instantly except Dryos

[sinful cove]

And?

[frosty heron]

No reason to reduce the hp even more

[sinful cove]

Juvie utah of the same size has more hp somehow than a denser build juvie stego and that makes sense?

Isnt utah already getting an hp adjustment or something

Hopefully they fix this with the hp changes

[ocean wagon]

Yes I believe so

[frosty heron]

Yes, which I strongly disagree with

[ocean wagon]

Why?

Utah needs it

[frosty heron]

No it doesn't, it already dies quick enought to the current roster

[sinful cove]

Juvie stego shouldnt get walloped easier than something the same size that is lighter built and can escape from threats effortlessly while the stego had no chance to run away

Its just shit design

[ocean wagon]

Utah is a pack based animal, the only thing your solo average Utah player should be trying to hint are kicks Druid and hypsi

[frosty heron]

A full Utah shouldn't be able to destroy a tiny Stego you're saying?

[ocean wagon]

The more Utah’s you have the higher chance to take something large down

[frosty heron]

Because we're talking about weight here

[sinful cove]

Utah is already well equipped to avoid hits in combat once desync gets fixed, stego is not

[frosty heron]

And who is talking about solo here, a single teno and single Carno can wreck 3 Utahs if they want

[sinful cove]

No i'm saying it shouldn't be tankier than a stego of the same size did you read

[frosty heron]

Teno CC is instakill, Carno is capable of 2 shooting Utahs

[sinful cove]

Utah can avoid both

[ocean wagon]

A single Utah can kill a teno. You just need skill to do so

[sinful cove]

Ive seen utahs bait and juke tenos alone even

[frosty heron]

Skill? Any Teno with IQ as equal room temperature can kill an Utah without effort

[true ginkgo]

Health and weight are not linked I know. But currently a young stego can be much physically larger than a utah or dryo, yet still have far less health.

[frosty heron]

Don't fall in baits, ez pz

Getting baited is defender issue

[ocean wagon]

There’s no further point to this convo, it’s just down to skill base and who can manage stamina better

[frosty heron]

Anyways if that scenario is possible yall just confirmed it's not the Utah being tanky, but actually the player outskilling his opponent

[true ginkgo]

A 500kg stego isn’t ‘tiny’. It’s literally as big as an adult utah.

[frosty heron]

On raw numbers, Utah was fragile enought and there's no reason to be 1 shooted by everything

[frosty heron]

Funny thing it actually isn't, when you reach the 500 kg zone you're almost half as big in size, it's just a frssh juvenile

Probably devs know better howcl weight is managed during grows

[true ginkgo]

Utah should be demolishing a 120kg fresh spawn stego. But a 500kg stego is not a fresh spawn. It’s been growing as long as the utah.

Also stego is very bulky for its dimensions. While isle utah is skin and bone. A utah of equal height and length will weigh a fraction of what the stego does.

Keep in mind that even a dryo has more hp than a 500kg stego, and is far smaller physically

[frosty heron]

I'm tyred of reading "Utah is just skin and bone" throwing all logic to the trash can, just go and check how big a 500 kg Stego is and you will know why it shouldn't be able to just keep a full Utah on his toes

[raw sparrow]

balance isnt revolved around the juvie stage lol, get better at reaching adult pls before requesting to buff juvies

[frosty heron]

Smaller dinos having more HP than it's weight could be related to balance and that's something only devs know

[true ginkgo]

So encourage afk growing? Got it.

[frosty heron]

We don't need OP juveniles just going aggro on everything the same weight as them

[true ginkgo]

How could a stego go agro on a utah?

[frosty heron]

Who said Stegos

[raw sparrow]

pressing lmb or rmb

[frosty heron]

Could be anything

[raw sparrow]

afk growing is the safest way to grow, doesnt mean u have to do it, nor does everyone do it

[frosty heron]

And also talking about Stegos, with the feedback youre asking for a 800 kgs Stego could potentially 1 shoot a full Utah which is pretty stupid immo

[true ginkgo]

I personally don’t like afk growing. But encouraging it should never be a thing.

[frosty heron]

Imagine growing for 1 hour and half and having the capacity to 1 shoot a 1 hour 15 mins animal

[true ginkgo]

Growth should be skill based, not luck.

[raw sparrow]

growth should be based on time

[true ginkgo]

Who said one shot?

[frosty heron]

It's actually requires a kind of skill which is called common sense

[raw sparrow]

skill comes from being able to grow to full

[tall bronze]

Growth right now is sitting in a bush and occasionally coming out to eat/drink.

Unless you want to wander around for no reason and get spotted and eaten despite being full.

[raw sparrow]

diets should help move ppl around lol

[frosty heron]

Your survivality depends on your decisions, if you're just 1 calling randomly at the forest soon as you spawn expect to be caught and eaten

[tall bronze]

Yep. I can't wait for them.

[true ginkgo]

The only skill currently is being lucky enough to not have a utah or carno walk past you.

[frosty heron]

It will be fixed with diets

[true ginkgo]

100% luck

[raw sparrow]

theres no luck in this game

[tall bronze]

Isn't there also the no foliage cheat thing?

[raw sparrow]

survival of the fittest

[frosty heron]

Well yes. And also no water thing but that's a different history

[true ginkgo]

logs in and finds a rex has happened to nest in the bushes where you logged out ah yes pure skill and no luck

A 500kg rex juvie should be playing on a similar level to a utah. A 1200kg stego should be playing on a similar level to a kentro

[frosty heron]

That happens, one member of my Carno Pack logged right into pack of Utahs and died, just log somewhere far from hotspots

[sinful cove]

To be fair it isnt always hotspots

Like in legacy aj unfortunate subrex logged in right at the center of my sucho group in a normally safe area

People do log in safe areas and get unlucky in both legacy and evrima

[true ginkgo]

One of evrimas advertised features was no more ‘legacy syndrome’ for the juvies. They would actually be fun to play.

[sinful cove]

Well utah juvie is funner than legacy's i guess

Herbis still get lame juvie stages so far

[frosty heron]

I log always in the most remote areas I can find where's there's the less chance someone could be there, anyways logging into people is bad luck, as dying to a crash is also bad luck

[true ginkgo]

Making completely helpless vs animals their own size is worse than legacy.

[swift beacon]

There's a fine bloody line between being vulnerable and being completely helpless if spotted

[frosty heron]

There's always unavoidable shit

[sinful cove]

Totally helpless like juvie stego

[raw sparrow]

like megapackers or mixpackers?

[frosty heron]

Exactly

[sinful cove]

Vs vulnerable like utah that can escape ez

[frosty heron]

Sorry for being able to escape when all the cast kills you instantly

Carnos can escape btw

[sinful cove]

Nobody is saying its bad that utah can escape do you read

[swift beacon]

Consider the following

[sinful cove]

Its the fact that it can escape ez while also being tankier than a same size animal that cant escape

[swift beacon]

Roughly similarly sized animals should take similar investment to bring down

[frosty heron]

I do read, I just don't understand your nosense hate when talking about it

[sinful cove]

“Nonsense hate” what? Clearly you didnt even read lmao

[frosty heron]

I clearly know what I'm reading

[swift beacon]

Evidently not

[frosty heron]

Not gonna discuss with people who doesn't has constructive points of view

[true ginkgo]

The utah-500kg stego also works for an adult stego-apex carnivore stand in. They tower over stego despite only being a bit heavier. They’re also far faster. What should stegos counterplay be if encountering one?

[sinful cove]

You are reading that it is stupid as fuck for something that can’t escape threats to be squishier than a fast an agile animal of the same size, and this is difficult to figure out for you?

[frosty heron]

Been weeks just watching stupid whining about Utah when the playable isn't even good now, pounce it's useless, and still asking for hp nerfs Lol

[swift beacon]

Same amount of meat should require the same amount of effort to actually kill

[sinful cove]

Youre just salty when ever utah gets criticism, and this is primarily a stego balance issue anyway and you still just het mad that people bring utah up

[frosty heron]

How I'm salty when everytime someone talks about Stego you're the first person saying the playable it's trash and helpless

[sinful cove]

Utah is being used as a comparison and that's the extent of it

[swift beacon]

If you had a 1600 kg Tenonto and a 1600 kg Stego, and both were just standing there taking punishment and you bit both of them on the body, you should take the same number of hits to kill both

[raw sparrow]

btw if youre dying to a solo utah as a stego then youre doing something wrong

[true ginkgo]

This.

[frosty heron]

When I openly said that Utah was pretty strong before dismount issue was ever a thing

And the locational damage fix

[sinful cove]

Juvie 500kg stego*

Also stego is easy as hell to juke i almost killed one as a dryo

[swift beacon]

Juvie 500 kg Stego is in a losing matchup against adult 500 kg Utah, and that's fine, the problem here is how losing the matchup is

[sinful cove]

The tankiness is the only issue

[true ginkgo]

Ok let’s stop mentioning utah and switch to less controversial animals. A stego and dryo of matching sizes should have the same health. A stego and tenoto of matching sizes should match health.

[frosty heron]

Yeah alright but there's a lot of missing data there. I can say I killed a Deino as solo Carno that doesn't mean the playable is absolute trash

[sinful cove]

Or lack thereof

[frosty heron]

Because I've seen sólo Stego killing a mixpack of Stego + Carnos

[sinful cove]

It seemed to be an average stego player to me, not the worst not the best

The issue is how easily i juked such close attacks and hit its head so many times effortlessly

[frosty heron]

Obviously Stego needs more attacks but I don't think Stego is weak, it just needs smart thinking to play it, unless you just got swarmed

[sinful cove]

It needs to be smarter than its attackers who are always faster and usually in higher number when it should be the other way around, it should be harder to hunt a large defensive animal than to defend yourself as one

Stego does not get the initiate the fights ever

So it shouldnt have to hope its attackers make a mistake or shove its face in a rock to survive

[raw sparrow]

thats how u die.... mistakes

[frosty heron]

I don't know why it's a problem to actually think smart when defending yourself and taking a bit of skill to survive dangerous situations, seems like Stego mains just want to spam clicks like Deinos and get away from everything

[sinful cove]

You should die from your own mistakes, not because somebody didnt make a mistake against your shitty attacks you have to use

The jab is awful