balance-feedback-discussion

[sinful cove]

rinse and repeat

[granite gate]

also i understand the game is meant to be hardcore survival n everything, but seriously -- i think at least one faction should be somewhat "easier" than the others. carnis and mercs should be the hardest to play, not herbis.....

for most herbivores irl, there are pm two models:

1. grow for a long ass time but become essentially unkillable once you're an adult
2. grow fast and die fast
   the issue is that the isle tries to treat herbi growth times the same as carni growth times

i.e, stego vs deino -- deino is a carnivore and yet has far better survivability than stego due to its ability to escape into the water and its hand-fed meals via fish AI

[sinful cove]

carnis are supposed to be the hard choice, but they go and make herbis worse and then they have no appeal to new players, social players or chill players, because herbi gameplay will revolve around getting lynch mobbed by a pampered faction that gets to unlock strains and has much more niche coverage than your faction does

[granite gate]

^

like look at say, herrera. they're gonna add the great fun tree mechanics for that lil discount raptor, but are leaving hypsi undone (but still in the game) until then?

[sinful cove]

because hypsi wasnt important enough to finish, see, it's a small herbivore it isn't significant enough

[granite gate]

meanwhile, herrera: is a small shitass carni

and look at troodons

they're adding a whole new system for them

ugh

i just keep thinking about someone's suggestion to add a lil herbi/insectivore ptera that would specialize in hovering and maneuverability and that would be such a nice addition to the herbi roster

[sinful cove]

carnis get two confirmed flyers, herbis have none so far. carnis have at least 2 confirmed nocturnals, herbis have none. herbis get one semiaquatic who is extra small tier. carnis get cooler combat styles and mechanics. carnis get to walk and sniff. carni diets were said to be less strict than herbi diets. carnis get to unlock strains while herbivores have no revealed equivalent, probably because there never will be anything cool for them. plants, fucking plants get strains but herbis don't get anything, it's like some sort of sick joke

ive wanted a fruit bat pterosaur for the herbi roster for a while too

not gonna be surprised if the third flyer they said is coming is just another carnivore, wouldn't even be surprised. if it is an herbi that would be a pleasant surprise

[granite gate]

yeh.......

also what's the small herbi semiaquatic?

[sinful cove]

minmi

[lament cloak]

tbf beipi and deinocheirus are probably going to be primarily herbivorous with carnivorous atributes

[sinful cove]

we'll see, deinocheirus especially looks like he might enjoy a lot of fish

but who knows exactly what their requirements will be

[granite gate]

yeh hopefully

idk

hopefully the fishing mechanic will be better too, in the future

especially with more piscivores

[spare badger]

I do think that Deinocheirus should be able to eat baby dinos, and maybe eggs too. Only things that it would be able to swallow whole, though.

[thin herald]

It shouldn’t

Omni faction =/= only thing it can eat are eggs

If I had to choose creatures that were omni, it would be Plateo, Styraco, Theri, Beipi, Ovi, Cheirus, & Galli

[spare badger]

It shouldnt eat eggs or hatchling Dino's or both?

[alpine plover]

I think I suggested a fruit bat ptera some time ago

Though I do agree, if diets don't improve herbi gameplay and decrease the growth time issues for them.

Then carni's are getting the privilege treatment

I play carni but I wanna fight good matches against herbi players as well. Fighting carnos gets old, as well as the same 3 mid tiers in legacy/apexes.

[sinful cove]

i found your frugivore flier suggestion, feng is a bit tiny to be of any value in the ecosystem imo, he just wouldn't be worth hunting and couldn’t really interact with the rest of the roster in a meaningful way, even pterodaustro dwarfs him and he's also on the small side

A compy would body feng, if they add small pterosaur ambients like they have with birds he could be a good addition among them though.. something like tupa or a similar sized ptero who would look good as a frugi would make more sense as playable

[alpine plover]

Right though I got some feedback for that and it doesn't have to be that tiny

It can be another flyer but with the same attributes or niche that's big enough to interact with the playables

I don't know what I was on that day, I think I watched "how to train your dragon". Once I seen toothless hanging upside down on a tree branch. That's when it clicked and got the idea.

[left scroll]

i'd love so bad for a tapejarid to be added

eat fruit, big crest, probably colourful. whats not to love

i do wish herbis were addressed differently, in particular the small guys

hypsi is lacking BIG time, and i think basically everyone (reasonable) agrees on that

even dryo isn't perfect, it kinda lacks.... fun

makes me worry about the other small herbis yet to come, like ava/proto/homalo/oro/taco

i wouldnt expect BoB level-burrowing, but i do at least hope the burrowing system is fun. not just hole-in-the-ground legacy burrows, at least not for the more serious burrowers

though that does give me an idea for a suggestion when im not on cooldown for general-feedback

[spare badger]

They are doing a more complex tunnel system

[pallid relic]

@fading pagoda I have read your suggestion. I agree with all of it except the aim assist. I think you wrote all of that with the mind of the current meta. Think of hypsi as a support character in a moba. They don't do much damage but they can be devastating in the right situations. As of now we don't have any apexes in evrima, except maybe deino which is kind of in a isolated space anyway most of the time... but now imagine a rex against a giga, both slow, both rely on the first hit and careful maneuvering. Now mix a hypsi into that situation... whoever gets blinded is practically dead. I believe hypsi is actually gamebreaking and the future will show it. Also let's not forget the non-existent growth time and incredible stam. You can cheese out the spawntimer and traverse the map very quickly. Hypsi is not a strong dino rn and that's a very good thing.

[fading pagoda]

You speak the words of truth. I agree that hypsi's blind would be extremely game breaking in circumstances like that, however in a life or death situation for a hypsilophodon, the spray should be useful in a high speed chase between itself and whatever adversary it is running from. Even once apexes arrive, there are still Utah's, carnos, and soon troodon and many other stuff that are huge threats. In those scenarios, this spit isnt useful because its extremely hard to aim. And hypsi is so fragile that if it slips up once, it's basically instant death

Hypsi is not threatened by rex and gigas. They are too slow and unmaneuverable. It's the smaller threats that are harder to deal with

also the smaller the opponent is, the harder it is to spray due to a smaller head and therefore smaller hitbox window for the spit

So imo the fact that the spray will be useful against massive giants and not the threats that are actually a danger to hypsi, then its still kind of a useless ability

[high shale]

I think hypsi definitely needs a buff, especially in the movement department. But at the same time I don’t think it should get those buffs until it gets growth. It’ll hopefully get growth by update 5, with sexual dimorphism and nesting. For a creature with no punishment to death, it’s not that bad right now.

[sinful cove]

hypsi shouldnt be held back just because some people might misuse it in mix packs, playables shouldn't have their viability rely on group situations

[pallid relic]

I don't even know what dimension you guys are living in. Hypsi is an upgraded chicken at best and you want it to keep up with dinosaurs that are 5 to 20 times their size...

I mean i like hypsi myself, but i do realize what i am playing when i am playing hypsi... they are not supposed to be strong.

[lean lotus]

"playables should have their viability rely on group situations" is silly.

[vagrant mural]

Playables viability should be based on how they do solo

[pallid relic]

Also there is a thing called respawn abuse, the 290 seconds are a joke. If there is a longer, multispecies fight going on and someone dies it's very easy to get back into that fight as a hypsi and start wrecking havoc with the blind mechanic. I don't think that's immersive and i don't think that should have a place in the game.

[vagrant mural]

If they’re designed to be in groups like troodon, then you also balance it around how an individual also functions in a group

[sinful cove]

Oof i mistyped that lol

[lean lotus]

That, I can agree with, kek

[sinful cove]

Animals can be built around grouping but they should be viable solo as well

Like utahs are built to pack but alone they can still survive and function just fine, hypsi's spit is useless when you're alone unless youre trolling dinos who aren’t attacking you already

[pallid relic]

Honestly most of these topics could be solved by having the hypsi shoot a blind-cloud of sorts... out of it's... "back" so to speak, that way you can always run away and leave a barrier behind you ^^

[sinful cove]

Skunk hypsi

[pallid relic]

If the mechanic is of a purely defensive nature, why not?

[vagrant mural]

You can just run up to something and then around and spray

[sinful cove]

I mean its already a spit so may as well just fix it to be worth using, a splatter zone aim rather than a pinpoint projectile would help, and not zooming your camera x10

A skunk ability for another dino might actually be cool though, instead of blinding it could make the target throw up and fuck up their sense of smell and also make them show up on scent as a cloud until they clean it off (probably no prolonged sick affect after throwing up though)

But for hypsi, nah just fix its spit

[pallid relic]

We will see i guess, but i really think that once they introduce big and slow apexes that take 6-10 hours to grow or whatever and you can basically get them killed by spawning a hypsi in 2 minutes... that sounds like a giant problem.

[fading pagoda]

im not trying to make hypsi strong. Im trying to make hypsi useful and interesting. As of right now its boring and useless. Especially when playing solo. The spray can be used to troll, however if a hypsi is spotted by a utah or a carno its basically impossible to survive. Wich should not be the case

it should have difficulty surviving against these creatures because like you said its small and weak. However, it's basically a guaranteed death for you, even if you have an immense amount of skill

if the buffs that i posted about were implemented, it would make the creature more enjoyable and interesting to play. It would also give it a game plan and ways to defend itself. Even if it's small it should have some way to be viable

[fading pagoda]

also this is going to be changed once hypsi is going to have a grow time

[dim crown]

Hypsi has all it takes to survive on its own, and it can also play its special&unique role in any herd, any group, might have some changes/buffs in the future, but not because its weak or the spit is bad.

[gentle sail]

Its spit is... HORRIBLE

So, you can't hit the spit unless your aim helper is golden, BUT it's a projectile, so you have to lead your shots.

If you lead, it can't be golden, and can't hit

Its only use is against a stationary target within super close proximity, by the time anything is close to get nailed by the spit, it's close enough to eat you, unless it's running at you dead on, and even then, you might not have a proper shot because you have to hit the neck area rather than the face. AND hypsi can't spit directly behind it without coming to a complete stop, and if it's being chased, stopping will be punished, the pursuer will still be able to bite even if it can't see.

Hypsi doesn't know what it wants to be

[sinful cove]

protip: you can't talk reason into Rumo about hypsi

[gentle sail]

It doesn't need to kill things or be unkillable, but rn its a walking lunchable

Actually no, is kid cuisine cheaper than lunchables?

Either way, hopefully it doesn't stay this way forever, it's completely unviable and needs a rework, it doesn't feel complete, and kind of just seems like a grab bag of abilities

[sinful cove]

the only thing that makes it remotely viable is at least you dont have to grow before you get killed by all the faster predators that oneshot you lol

im pretty good at being sneaky and evasive as hypsi but it's honestly boring just running from every sound and hoping i'm not seen all the time

because if you are seen you better hope the person who saw you has the brain function of a baked potato or they will track you down

[gentle sail]

Doesn't make it viable as much as less consequential for dying. It's gonna climb too, right? Climbing, jumping, spitting, the 2 of which that are in aren't even practical in most situations. The jump takes half of your stam and can only really get you into trees that carnos and utahs can reach, unless you find a tree that's higher than they are, but by the time you're in one you need food and water.. plus, what fun is there in sitting in a tree constantly? Maybe chilling for a few minutes enjoying the view. The view of other trees that you probably can't get into

[sinful cove]

Plus utah had a momentum climb in his concept so if he actually gets it (he REALLY doesnt need it) then it invalidates hypsi even more

[dim crown]

Poor Hypsi

[gentle sail]

Poor hypsi

[sinful cove]

Poor hypsi

[gentle sail]

The emoji didn't load until after and it felt like I was betrayed

[dim crown]

Everyone beating it up so bad

[sinful cove]

Well it is an easy target to beat on to be fair

[dim crown]

No.

[gentle sail]

Yes

Explain why hypsi is good

[sinful cove]

Oh god dont do it

Not again, the cycle of suffering begins once more

[dim crown]

Let me go grab a beer.

[sinful cove]

[gentle sail]

If he's already gone through this I'm sure I can scroll up and dismantle

[left scroll]

im hoping once they add hypsi growth they'll re-address its whole unviability and whatnot

literally the only reason people play it rn is it's basically sandbox. if you had to grow i doubt people would care at all unless they made it fun

[sinful cove]

Hypsi growth would probably be like 15-20 minutes anyway

[left scroll]

there is that at least

although tbh even if it's less powerful than dryo, i can still see 30 minutes being fine

[dim crown]

Dryo&Hypsi is fabulous crew

One of the facts i love about it now, is that if i lose my dino while fighting (as herbie) i can jump back in that fight to help my herd.

Instead of spawning away to try start grow a dino to play the next day.

Blinding ppl in a fight is hilarious.

And setting up plays for it is also funny to do.

Adrenaline pumps when ur that small and ur sneaking ur way into the "danger zone"

No growth, ez spawns, work well with this.

And like any other herb has all it takes to survive.

[gentle sail]

"Jump right back in after dying" sure, if you don't die in a spawn and need to wait 5 minutes, or spawn somewhere else and use your tiny legs to get to the herd, which might have already taken care of the threat.
"It goes well in every herd and its weapon is a game changer" if you can manage to spit at something that is standing completely still and not get fucked over by the chance it decides to move or attack before you spit.
"I don't feel we're supposed to stand still trying to snipe a dino that is coming for you" you can't run, the maneuverability is pretty shit, but even if you try to run and spit something to get away, it makes you stop moving. Good luck trying to assist your herd and blind something. It's satisfying as fuck when you manage, but it's not something you can do without specific circumstances.
"It's not defense, it's and attack" an attack you need your target to be stationary for.
"Defense for hypsi is size speed and stam" hypsi is easy to hit, catch up to, and outmanuever, its jump takes half its stam away, and while it does regen a bit if you land and keep running, it's still not going to help. You're not going to outstam a pursuer.
"Blind someone so I can surprise attack" and if you end up missing everything knows where you are and you are top priority to kill. Also, blinding anything other than a baby or a bird is only gonna help your herd to attack, but whatever gets blind can still rely on sound to run away, then wipe face off.
"Try to start grow a dino to play the next day" only 3 of them take more than 2 hours, and they're things that are decently strong/fast as fresh spawns.

It can survive, sure, but only situationally fun, and no growth time doesn't make up for that. It only further proves that hypsi is currently the troll dino. You come to blind shit and people can just run off to wipe down. It's fun to troll with, and to meme on, and satisfying to hit people with a spit so a steg or ten can nail them in the face if they're dum and don't hear their way away from things.

Anyway

[short orbit]

but, you know that Hypsi's advantage is it's size, right?
It is really easy to lost Hypsi, when chasing him. It often blends with the background, and sniffing makes you unable to chase him for next few seconds. (which makes chashing hypsi even more challenging in some cases)

Of course, more experienced or just more skilled players will easly kill it. But, c'mon - most of the players is able to loose Utah, when he'll do a few sharp turns.

[gentle sail]

You can listen, zoom in, and are fast enough to catch up if you really need to sniff.

[short orbit]

depends, if Hypsi is more experienced than new player, he will not run straight. So you have to sniff from time to time. And, you're right, "I" can listen, but it is really unsure way of finding prey, because of loud ambient. (I mean, if hypsi is like... I dunno - 10 meters from you, then there isn't any problem with finding it, but if he'll escape - good luck then.)

But, I didn't played on hypsi really much. If it is that problem for you, then - ok, I won't judge. Just sain'

[gentle sail]

Anecdotal, might be hard for some, but the ambience isn't that loud, and it shouldn't be a case of banking on a player being new and unable to track you

Afk for a bit, have fun

[dim crown]

Whats the best dino, regen stam, while standing?

On the current roster

Could it be Hypsi?

[short orbit]

Idk, didn't compared. Some ppl say that Utah, but idk if it's still correct

[dim crown]

Any 🐸 around to answer this?

[short orbit]

Anyway - for me this whole topic sounds like "dino hard pls help" tbh.

I mean, TI has some problems with balance from time to time

[dim crown]

Utah best stam regen? Really? While just standing?

[short orbit]

As I said - some peaple say it, I didn't compared

I didn't said this.

[dim crown]

Not sayin that, im just raising a question.

[short orbit]

Anyway - for me it is kinda... wrong.
I mean, Utahs weren't the fastest raptors, so they won't get the best stats in it. This includes max speed, but stam regen as well

[dim crown]

Stam regen on hypsi is very good imo

Sometimes it feels like when sprinting its still going up

Hilarious.

[short orbit]

maybe, idk

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gentle sail]

It's almost like having the best stam regen while standing doesn't matter when sitting exists

But also yes if you charge a jump and use stam for it the stam you used in the jump regens while running

[fading pagoda]

@gentle sail if you are interested, I made a massive essay about how hypsi should be changed in balance feedback. Give it a read if ya like

[grave veldt]

At first it seems like that but during fights stam regen while standing makes massive differences

Hypsi won’t see the benefits of it too much but something like a stego would

[dim crown]

Debatable.

[dim crown]

You could swallow all that essay you spit there dont waste your stamina on stuff like that

[slim dragon]

Are you just being toxic Rumo ?

[fading pagoda]

he isnt being toxic on purpose. This is just how he is. Which is almost objectively worse

[slim dragon]

¯_(ヅ)_/¯

[dim crown]

Dam, not toxic, just tried to make a bad joke i guess

Spits&Stam

Grazin beers. & spitting my

[dim crown]

Fuk you im not toxic

[stark knoll]

be civil

[dim crown]

✅

[crude garnet]

probably hipsy

or dryo?

idk

[wary glade]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-cat-hiss-gif-16141788

[alpine sleet]

@unkempt glacier did u charge a stego?

[rustic torrent]

@unkempt glacier Carno mega packs exist too, and can easily devour a Utah megapack using megapacks for your argument is dumb bc anything steamrolls anything if your group is big enough

[hallow spire]

True

[unkempt glacier]

no lmao it was a teno. got stuck on the fucker and then stunned

it's so hard to know when the charge is actually gonna work

[unkempt glacier]

the thing is they aren't as common though because of the fact carnos take almost twice as long to grow as a utah does lol.

[slim dragon]

They're also twice as strong
And faster

[unkempt glacier]

guess that's balanced out by the double growth time

[rustic torrent]

They're just as common if not more so because of Carno's viability lol like I said earlier a Carno megapack can wipe the floor with a Utah megapack, then you've got an unkillable Carno megapack roaming around killing everything because Carno is too good right now. Also, Utahs are easily countered by bucking and trees, Carnos don't have this issue

[alpine sleet]

wow that's broken lmao

[unkempt glacier]

i just don't wanna see carno go back to what it was in legacy honestly. it's nice to have it be an actual threat rather than a free meal if you can catch it or run it down until it bleeds out. like even its charge attack is buggy as hell and doesn't work half the time even now, it'd be a major disappointment to see it nerfed to hell

at least megapacks won't be such an issue when there's a bigger roster to play.. hopefully

[alpine plover]

I see Carno getting nerfed or we see a power creep

[rustic torrent]

Legacy Carno was balanced though, as much as things could be balanced in Legacy. Faster than anything, bad run turn, good walk turn/alt turn, good damage for fighting things like Utah/Dilo/Galli/Pachy, decent bleed etc. Evrima Carno isn't like that at all, the only thing they share really is high speed, Evrima Carno is infinitely better and borderline oppressive in every other sense. It's the fastest animal and also has minimal drawbacks, like its stamina pool. But even then, if you have 2 or 3 Carnos you don't really have to worry about anything since nothing can defend against an average pack of Carnos

[alpine plover]

Cera and Allo would be respectively much more powerful and this means they'd have the stats to outshine even the Carno we're seeing now

[rustic torrent]

Thing is, Allo and Cerato both don't have bullet speed on their side. Carno has no worried because it's always faster than everything else in the game, taking away a glaring weakness for every other dinosaur.

[unkempt glacier]

a powercreep on carno wouldn't surprise me, allo was super well balanced in legacy

[alpine plover]

Which would mean that yes it makes sense that the more tiers we go up, the stronger the dino(obviously)
But how much powerful are we talking, would they even be comparable or will they compare in power?

[unkempt glacier]

sure it's faster than everything but once that stamina is drained everything else catches up with it in no time

[rustic torrent]

that's it only weakness though

Carno isn't supposed to be going toe to toe with Stegos and Deinos

it's not even supposed to do that with Allo sized shit

[alpine plover]

If Carno is doing this well against Deino and Stegos
Imagine Allo

[rustic torrent]

Allo would get bodied by 2 Carnos which is stupid and hilarious lmfao

[alpine plover]

With the way things are, I can see Allo solo'ing both those pseudo apexes

[unkempt glacier]

y'all must be playing with some real MVP players

[alpine plover]

Ofc

Sometimes people won't just facetank or roll over and die

[rustic torrent]

Stego can't turn fast enough to keep 2 or 3 Carnos away from its head, its biggest weak spot, and Deino just sucks out of water but Carno does almost as much damage as Deino that it can shred it if there's only like 2 of them

[unkempt glacier]

idk about stegos cause i refuse to fight them as anything but the only deinos i've seen get taken down by carnos are bad deinos or deinos that panic and try to run lol

[rustic torrent]

Assume all players are below average, because that's how it tends to be

Carno is really really good

It's faster than Teno as soon as it spawns in

[unkempt glacier]

[rustic torrent]

Unless they beef up everything bigger than Carno with more HP, Carno shouldn't keep 350 base damage, that literally 3 shots Utah with body hits only 2 shot I think with headshots

[alpine plover]

Honestly I was disappointed that Cera got set back

A Carno meta is oppressive

So something to contend them would help level the playing field

[rustic torrent]

It doesn't help that Carno is just really good as well lol really good + no competition = oppressive playable

[alpine plover]

Right now everything in the roster(aside from Deino) is perfect for Carno

[unkempt glacier]

yeah right now there's definitely no competition for them for sure

[rustic torrent]

Sucho was initially planned for Evrima, it'd be nice to have them around to bully Carnos off corpses and keep them away from "safe water" spots

also something to beat up Deinos who also like to megapack

[alpine plover]

We need a bully that isn't oppressive if that makes sense
Which made Cera the perfect candidate

A big corpse bully, but can't straight up run down everything in sight.

[unkempt glacier]

yeah deinos need something to control their numbers too lol, the amount of times i've just sat in a group of 6+ adults while we all starve to death is ridiculous

[alpine plover]

While still being kill-able if you play the cards right

[raw cypress]

we need to get rid of stego and carno

[rustic torrent]

[alpine plover]

Cera and Allo would be on the case for that

For Deino's yeah, Sucho would slaughter anything small
While adult Deino's would contend Sucho's
They'd mutually balance each other as well

[lean shoal]

allo was too good in legacy. its ambush, healing and stamina were absolutely insane.

[alpine plover]

Though we'd have to avoid such power creep and expand the small's simultaneously

[unkempt glacier]

you think so? i always saw people praise it as being the most balanced dino in the game

[lean shoal]

thats because nothing was balanced well.

[alpine plover]

Yeah

[unkempt glacier]

that is also tru

[alpine plover]

Allo was busted in legacy

Play it right and you could solo Dibbles, Sucho's, and Sub Rexes

[rustic torrent]

imo the best balance was Carnos and Diablo, they did what they were intended to do and didn't do anything other dinos couldn't work around

[lean shoal]

allos most balanced things were that it had bad bleed resistance for good bleed and low damage for decent speed.

[lean shoal]

diablo was balanced pretty well. carno could not fight anything at all.

carno was just run at things and hope your bite lands.

[rustic torrent]

Carno could fight the small tiers

I mean the shitty hitboxes are one thing lol

[lean shoal]

carno stomped anything smaller than maia.

[rustic torrent]

oh god Maia

[lean shoal]

even cerato stood no chance against a carno with a brain.

[rustic torrent]

I think the worse part of balancing legacy was how bleed worked tbh

bleed sucked so much ass in legacy my god

[alpine plover]

There was a strat to counter that as Cera

Though most players ofc never knew it, and just got decimated

[unkempt glacier]

oof yeah carnos hitbox in legacy was a problem, having to time your hits like a whole carnos length before you got to your target was a major pain in the ass

[lean shoal]

trike was too weak.
rex was insanely powerful but really easy to avoid.
giga was absolutely broken.
sucho was too slow.
diablo was fine.
para had terrible stamina regen low damage and a terrible trot.
allo had insane healing and the most broken ambush in the entire game.
carno was fast but it couldent really "fight" anything, it had 100-0 matchups.
maia was very strong against anything smaller than itself.
cerato was too weak to bleed and had an awful ambush.
dilo was fairly slow without its ambush and had 3 bad matchups but could kill everything else.
pachy had the worst bleed resistance, a super long growth time a swimming bug and had to eat constantly.
utahs only downside was that it had low hp and no pounce.
dryo was a meme but was pretty decent aside from its lack of combat power.
gallis kick was buggy and it was way too agile to die.

[lean shoal]

i somehow never had issues with carnos hitbox in legacy unless i had over 250 ping.

[lean shoal]

the only way to not die to carno as cerato is to get into trees before you get bit.

[rustic torrent]

Trike now has the added bonus of not being able to hit anything Utah height too, so it can be ass ridden by Pachys and Utahs and Dilos

[alpine plover]

Nah

[rustic torrent]

hitbox moment

[lean shoal]

or just play bull fighter with them until someone backs off.

[alpine plover]

There's a strat

You play attrition with stamina

[lean shoal]

i managed to juke two carnos at once as a cera on deathmatch a while back in legacy. they were horrid though and had no idea how to turn.

[unkempt glacier]

reading all of this has me really grateful nobody can pull their Sticky Utah garbage assriding anymore lmao. maybe that's also one of the reasons utahs feel a lot weaker as well

[lean shoal]

utah is not weak at all lol.

utah is probably the second strongest thing in the game.

[rustic torrent]

Utah is good, but if your enemy is smart they can use pounce against you so you still have to be careful

[unkempt glacier]

i mean comparatively to how it was played in legacy. or idk, ask the utah mains, i'm sure they'd take the opportunity to vent their frustrations vs carno

[rustic torrent]

Legacy Utah was assride go brrrrrr nothing can turn as tightly as me brrrrrrrr

[lean shoal]

utah can easily take down stego in a small group if the stego is not in the perfect position. utah really only has two bad matchups. tenonto because of its crazy damage and deino because it can auto kill utah.

[lean shoal]

until you meet a high quality pachy cerato or bary and get absolutely cheesed.

[rustic torrent]

I've used trees to keep Utahs from pouncing me as Stego :) a surprisingly good deterrent lool

[lean shoal]

stego has to use terrain to not get annihilated by utah.

[unkempt glacier]

lol trees are their kryptonite, or at least to the ones who don't know to unpounce before you actually knock em off

[alpine plover]

While yes, Carno had tremendous stam and speed
It had terrible regen
If they got close, you'd ride them and get quick hits in. Typically they'd run off as they'd lose the more hp in the trade. What they usually expect is you to play defensive with your turn and ambush. They'd come back while you're bleeding and keep it up.
But no in this case, the moment it runs off. You ran after it. You keep running and chasing down till both of you didn't have stam. Cera would regen that stam quicker. So you'd repeat the proccess of running down and regenerating. Once the Carno can no longer run away. It'd have to turn and fight you while trotting, this is when Cera dominates in facetanking and turn fighting the Carno easily

[rustic torrent]

terrain is a valid strategy and weakness

there's always trees around, it's an unchanging state

[lean shoal]

once the tail hitbox was fixed on stego carno became a lot less broken.

[alpine plover]

I did this to so many Carno's and usually there was nothing they could do about it

[lean shoal]

trotting carno down does not really work as they trot a lot faster than you. basically rex vs giga trot.

[rustic torrent]

pounce is high risk high reward, if you catch something in the middle of a field and pounce it with your pals it's game over for them, but if you pounce in a forest like a silly man and you get flung off and stabbed, that's all on you

[lean shoal]

and the carno has to have low stam to begin with as they could just run in a straight line and get away.

[rustic torrent]

Though I do feel like Stego should have an alt tail attack still, it feels so much simpler than the other playables

[alpine plover]

The carno would be forced to trot, while you weren't

[lean shoal]

that dosent matter as unless the carno is already below half stam they can get away and sit to get enough stam to run away again.

[unkempt glacier]

eh carnos stam took a hot while to regenerate in legacy, it's why i never ran unless i had to

[alpine plover]

They can't as long as you track it, know that's it's going straight and regenerating
Carno's regen was slow

[lean shoal]

so your implying cerato can pull a giga and trot carno down basically even though carno can get a massive amount of distance or wait for you to bleed out by not holding the sprint button forever.

[alpine plover]

Nope

I'm saying that Cera's stam is good enough and regen's fast enough to eventually run down a predictable Carno

[lean shoal]

if carno just taps the sprint button and you took a bite as cerato you will not be able to beat it as they can just trade hits every now and again which bleeds you out.

[alpine plover]

And the one bite doesn't do enough in time to count you out of the fight surprisingly

In the strat you don't sit there and wait for a trade, you run it down

[lean shoal]

if cerato runs with one carno bite the cerato is going to take 35-40% of its hp.

[alpine plover]

That's still enough for the Cera to win the exchange at the end of the fight

[lean shoal]

there is no universe where you can run down a carno that has any intelligence in legacy.

[alpine plover]

If it happens, it happnes

[lean shoal]

carno takes 15-25% or so if it runs with cerato bleed after one bite depending on heal tics. cerato takes about 40. carno can three shot you if you run with bleed.

[alpine plover]

And yes, a Carno can escape and turn tail running
But then that'd mean he'd lose you
And since you regen faster

He won't catch after making enough distance

[lean shoal]

the carno dosent have to catch you at that point. its the one that was forced to run.

[alpine plover]

Yeah, so that means it was a win-win exchange for the Cera employing that strat

He either get's him or he doesn't get him, but lives.

[lean shoal]

cera can force carno off itself yes. cerato never really wins the matchup unless the carno is bad.

[alpine plover]

You're also forgetting that Cera with the better turn speed can maneuver around a Carno
With his turn speed also favoring him in most terrain, environments.

[lean shoal]

cerato has a hard time vs smart carnos in the open. in the forest forget hunting one if you cant 1 shot it.

[alpine plover]

And if he turns to try to hit you
He's wasting stam by not creating more distance
Thereby rendering the strat more effective

[lean shoal]

a smart carno can avoid the whole interaction by just short stopping close to you and turning to land a bite then running away after taking maybe one bite unless you want to trade hits.

3-4 hits from carno kills cerato.

[alpine plover]

Yeah, but you're not gonna try trade in this strat

Like at all

Everyone knows it takes 3-4 hits to bleed out as a Cera

[lean shoal]

if you dont try to trade hits with a carno that knows how to manage its stamina and bleed or bait you its curtains.

[alpine plover]

You want the Carno to burn his stam, getting free hits when you can sure.
But you only engage when it's absolutely out of stam and is forced to trot
That's when you go in, position with the turn speed's into account
Then mow it down

Getting trade hits is not something you wanna be doing as a Cera

[rustic torrent]

Don't Carno and Cera have the same amount of stam in legacy

[alpine plover]

Similar

Though Carno is faster

That's why you have to chase, dodge, and maneuver
If it tries to get away

Regen your stam quick, close the distance eventually, and run it down when it can no longer regen any stam

[rustic torrent]

All I know is Cera vs Allo was always pain

[golden coral]

Couldn't carno just run in straight line, get distance, turn, trade bites?

[alpine plover]

It could

But as I said, trading bites as Cera is not something you wanna be doing

[golden coral]

You need less bites than the cera to kill?

[alpine plover]

And it turning around makes the strat more effective, as it's not using the stam to completely run away

Cera wins in facetanks

[lean shoal]

unless the allo has no idea how to use its ambush it beats cera because allos ambush is 9 kmph faster than ceratos.

[alpine plover]

It bites quicker, turns quicker
Which is why the stam strat is essentialy for the Cera

Otherwise it get's shredded

[lean shoal]

best way to deal with ceras as carno ive found is to run at them then stop and walk turn at them for a bite then run away. rinse repeat until they die.

[golden coral]

You don't "turn" with the cera, you just do hit and run, straight ahead? Cera only wins in a face tank if it's damage, not bleed?

[alpine plover]

Read above

I explained it

[lean shoal]

that way you get off a lot of bleed on them and you take minimal bites. if you have to you can always just wait them out.

if cerato has an ambush capable of catching smaller animals and sky high bleed resistance it would have been awsome in legacy.

[alpine plover]

That's what most Cera's do yes
And that's why they 100% will die to a Carno or Allo

[golden coral]

I did read, it doesn't seem to make much sense. You need three hits to kill a cera I think, you can facetank those three and get out as carno?

[lean shoal]

and if allos ambush was changed to be about the speed of ceratos old ambush.

[alpine plover]

Though even for a good Cera, Allo fights are still tough

[alpine plover]

Nope, you didn't read

[lean shoal]

you still can do exactly that, facetank the cera for a few hits then run but keep eyes on it and it bleds out before you run out of stam.

[alpine plover]

Yeah

It's the easiest way to deal with Cera's

Pretty much with anything that does bleed

[lean shoal]

dilo struggles to do anything to cera unless its in a pack or its dark.

even then i know some tricks to beat other animals.

loose line of sight in trees and loop around. thats super easy to do as cerato.

[alpine plover]

Honestly I wanna know what they were thinking when making Cera's bleed so poor

Only a really hyper specific strat makes it even viable against other mid tiers

If it's bleed stats were changed
It would give it much more room against the other mid tiers as an underdog

[lean shoal]

bleed or bleed resistance?

[alpine plover]

Bleed resist

[lean shoal]

they toned it down when they changed it from ceratorex.

[golden coral]

Probably because of old ceratorex, but they didn't take into account it was that good because of two stats, not just one, and so when they nerfed both stats, we got legacy cera instead

[alpine plover]

Yeah

[lean shoal]

funny enough the only one of the three last survival playables in legacy without trash bleed resistance was sucho.

[alpine plover]

Sucho supremacy
I still miss hearing them across the map

[lean shoal]

they didnt just gut ceratos bleed resistance and bring its health back down, they changed its ambush from a rex style one to basically nothing.

funny enough suchos only bad matchup in legacy was giga.

everything else was food or avoidable. giga could just walk at you and kill you.

only outplay was to run in a straight line then log.

[alpine plover]

Tbf Giga did that to almost everyone

It's main strat was walking

Lmao

[lean shoal]

if sucho and para had better stam regen and better trots they would have been good.

[alpine plover]

Dude

Okay

[lean shoal]

diablo could regen its stamina fast enough to run and allo was fast enough to get away.

[alpine plover]

Whoever did the balance for para was straight up on something

Like that should never pass balance testing ever

[lean shoal]

para was nerfed into the ground.

it has shants headbutt walk and trot animations.

back when survival was new para could murder everything except gigas.

[alpine plover]

I heard it was because carni players were bitching that they couldn't catch it

So they appeased to them and what we got was legacy para

[lean shoal]

allos and utahs were bitching para was unkillable.

even though giga could 3 shot it with damage and run it down with no effort.

[rustic torrent]

Ye I know that's why I said it was pain

[lean shoal]

giga was faster than para without ambush for a bit.

[alpine plover]

I don't know much about Isle's past since I'm still new

[lean shoal]

giga ran at about 36 kmph and so did para but giga was still fast enough to ambush from an insane distance and catch up to para with basically just its sprint before its stamina ran out.

[alpine plover]

But my words of wisdom?
Never appease to a specific playerbase

Because bias in inevitable

[rustic torrent]

Sucho vs Allo was fun bc Sucho cucks Allo and it was nice putting them in their place

[lean shoal]

utah mains got pachy nerfed.

[rustic torrent]

Pachy nerf

[lean shoal]

pachy was 39kmph run speed and 2 shot utah. when pachy got a 2kmph speed boost utahs complained so pachy lost its ability to 2 shot them.

[rustic torrent]

can't wait for Evrima Pachy to redeem itself and throw Utahs

[lean shoal]

only reason pachy got a speed buff was because it was insanely slow for its size and it would then be fodder to ceratos ambush. despite allo making everything fodder.

[alpine plover]

Carni players prefer having easier matchups
But then what happens is that no one plays those dinos anymore
Which in turn creates more competition since those players will just opt to play as another carni

[rustic torrent]

if legacy Pachy had Utah's bleed resist it'd be ok

[lean shoal]

cant wait to destroy utahs as pachy in evrima and meme carnos by being a rouge missile that breaks their legs and runs away laughing.

[lean shoal]

any bleed resistance.

if you run with any bleed as pachy your near dead.

good thing you could still get even good utahs by being smart as pachy.

[rustic torrent]

tfw Herrera can bleed out Pachy if it's determined enough

[alpine plover]

Pachy was a testament to how terrible a dino could get in this game

[lean shoal]

good thing pachy can still beat herrera up with no issue.

[rustic torrent]

Yeah but hitboxes

and Herrera is so fast and small that hitting one is a nightmare

since Pachy's hitbox is weird

[lean shoal]

ava was actually good back in prog. thing 2 shot utah. then its damage got gutted down to 25.

[alpine plover]

Lemme guess

To appease them

[rustic torrent]

also it was night time I couldn't see shet

[lean shoal]

why does a 1 ton animal with horns do 25 damage when a literal scaly rat does 150 and runs like sonic.

ava was changed from doing 250 damage a hit and a decent ammount of bleed to doing 125 with no bleed then to 25.

[rustic torrent]

Legacy is so bad it hurts

[alpine plover]

At least in Evrima they learned there lesson and making herbi's somewhat good

But as we can see carni players are still advocating for herbi nerfs to this day

Like Teno and Stego nerfs

[lean shoal]

only things that got a lot of love that wernt in survival were bary and theri.

[rustic torrent]

Evrima is good because 1. no more no alt turn/alt turn debates it's just built in 2. bleed is reworked to not gnaw through your raw health anymore 3. It's not a 1 shot game anymore, most of the playables can take more than 1 hit and live

[lean shoal]

teno is a bit strong vs utah but if they nerf it its carno food.

[alpine plover]

Yup

Though good utahs can bait and outrun teno's

[lean shoal]

stego is very weak to utah but it also has basically no other predators if its smart.

[alpine plover]

So it's still fair adding their lower growth time into account

[lean shoal]

we just need a land carnivore to contest carno and population control for deino.

then stegos tail needs to be fixed too.

[alpine plover]

Yup

Stego's a bit wonky

[rustic torrent]

nerf Carno, then you can nerf Teno damage a little to compensate then everything is decently balanced

[lean shoal]

also more < 2 ton playables.

[alpine plover]

Though that could be due to desync

[lean shoal]

stegos bad because it has a stupid jab attack instead of having area coverage with its tail.

[rustic torrent]

Sucho would fix the Deino and Carno problems imo, and would also be in line with the devs image of Evrima that they wanted since it was planned for it originally anyway

[lean shoal]

bary would too.

bary would be even better for the ecosystem than sucho.

[rustic torrent]

Bary is less of a threat to adult Deinos though, which like to baby sit the little ones till they're huge

[lean shoal]

mostly they eat the babies.

[alpine plover]

I'd like Cera
But he's got a point
Sucho is like a two birds one stone to the ecosystem rn

[lean shoal]

cera checks carno and utah without being op. sucho checks what cera checks but also kills deinos.

[rustic torrent]

Sucho is big, could bully Carno off their food, two of them could scare off/kill a Deino, isn't huge like Rex or Giga, isn't fast like Allo or Alberto, and he makes use of the fishing mechanic that the devs worked hard on

[alpine plover]

Stego's would have a threat too
Since a gang of 2-3 would pose a serious danger other than Utah packs

[lean shoal]

sucho would still get killed by stego fairly easily but could eat the younger ones.

sucho probably wont have insane damage output.

[alpine plover]

Yeah
It'd solo the the young ones that aren't paying attention near lakes and rivers

[lean shoal]

im guessing around allo/carno damage with its bite and about 3x that with its claws.

[alpine plover]

Alt bite would be it's stationery
I think like the Teno's claw attack

[lean shoal]

probably 350 or so for the bite and about 900-1000 with the claws. also a lot of bleed on both.

[lament cloak]

1000!!!

that is wayyy too much

[lean shoal]

bite, alt bite, claw, forward claw.

[rustic torrent]

tbh other than speed I don't think Sucho's stats have to change much comparitively

[lean shoal]

on an attack that requires you to be basically under the suchos body?

[rustic torrent]

well and its size boost

[alpine plover]

The more we discuss
The more I get convinced that Sucho would be a good addition

[lean shoal]

only way sucho hits you with its claws is if it grabs you or if you run into it.

[lament cloak]

well there is a nice thing about having a melee attack when everyone else also only has a melee attack

[lean shoal]

simple trick, avoid the 5 ton animal that cant chase you down.

[rustic torrent]

if you try and run through it and get stuck on the Sucho that's big rip

[rustic torrent]

Imagine isle players avoiding a potential fight to boost their ego

[lean shoal]

sucho still would loose to adult deino but wouldent be a free meal, stego would destroy it and it would not be able to catch anything else.

[alpine plover]

Make it have a slow turn
So it'd be slightly vulnerable on land against agile players
While still being able to run to water if things get dicy

[lean shoal]

run throughs are dead.

[lament cloak]

1000 damage is still a shit ton of damage

[rustic torrent]

yeah but you still have to get close enough to bite

[lean shoal]

basically think if its claw like tenontos back kick but instead of ccing you it does more damage and a ton of bleed.

sucho is 4-5 tons.

thats not a lot of damage from something that is meant to hold its ground.

[rustic torrent]

I think Sucho would do ok at 35 km/h tbh

[lean shoal]

just make sucho as fast as rex with a bit more stamina and a decent trot, then its good.

[rustic torrent]

do we know how fast Rex is

[lament cloak]

that is almost how much damage stego does rn

[lean shoal]

how low do you want it then?

[lament cloak]

700-800

[rustic torrent]

Sucho isn't an active hunter like the other terrestrials also, it shouldn't have to run things down, it bullies land dinosaurs off their kills if it wants to, and eats fish and fights Deino over fish and water rights™️

[lean shoal]

i want its claws to do a lot more than its bite.

[lean shoal]

800 is good.

[alpine plover]

Gonna disagree
Sucho should not be a god
It should still kill Stego if they outnumber one by 2-3
But that'd make it in the realm of solo'ing Stego, which are slow and terrestrial. While Sucho's a sub aquatic

[lean shoal]

adult deinos dont eat fish much. you get like 5% for an elite fish at 80% growth.

[lament cloak]

nah, stego should clap sucho groups, sucho is pretty much exactly what stego is good against, slow and isnt tanky enough to tank very many hits

[rustic torrent]

They still hoard them though, and Deinos like to be bastards about the fact that they're the only thing in the water

[lean shoal]

i think a pack of 3 suchos could kill a stego but it would be a bit hard.

cant subsist off the fish forever as deino.

[rustic torrent]

Yeah Sucho isn't as fast or nimble as Utah or Carno, so getting those important head shots without getting hit would be really hard without a big group

[lean shoal]

sucho probably could at least until 80%.

[rustic torrent]

only more reason to make Deinos go away from fishing spots, since they kill them and use them to bait land carnivores lol

[lean shoal]

then after you reach that size you could venture out and look for carcasses or smaller animals.

[rustic torrent]

unless they add those REALLY BIG fish

[lean shoal]

sucho could just yoink the fish and walk off.

[alpine plover]

I don't think Sucho would get the jump on any smaller animals

[lean shoal]

yeah i dont think so either.

[alpine plover]

Considering how noticeable he is

[lean shoal]

sucho being rex height moment.

[alpine plover]

He'd be regulated to scavenging on land, stealing Carno and Utah kills

[rustic torrent]

Sucho is a bully, and that's a fun playstyle

[alpine plover]

Possibly stealing from adult Deino's too since they'd have a better matchup on land

[rustic torrent]

you piss people off and take their shit at the same time lol

[lean shoal]

god i would love to continue my ways of pissing off the utah playerbase because they think a 5 ton animal should be free food and should bow down to them.

[rustic torrent]

If Sucho is 5 tons, do y'all think its HP should be equal to its weight, or should it have more HP since it's a slow bully tank

[lean shoal]

that is the entire reason i was a partial sucho main in survival.

[lean shoal]

probably about the same hp as weight.

[alpine plover]

Balance should always relate to play styles and niches

[rustic torrent]

Nothing better than beating up Allos who just killed something for me

[lean shoal]

nothing better than frustrating a rex pair because they cant get past my tail as anky.

[alpine plover]

You know what, fuck troodon
We need Sucho and Cera to save the ecosystem

[lament cloak]

good luck keeping both of them behind you

[lean shoal]

i fended off a rex pair as anky in progression. put my face to a wall and they got so hungry they tried to facetank me.

[rustic torrent]

hahaha

[lean shoal]

they did it twice mind you because the server crashed.

i was getting a bit ansy because i was on like 20% water.

that anky died to acros when my game started freezing every time i got hit.

but only after killing a rex and later killing 5+ allos at once.

[rustic torrent]

Then they took Anky's bonebreak away but left Rex's in

[lean shoal]

rex, gets health buff, gets weight buff, gets speed buff. anky gets 60 damage for loosing its only defensive tool.

they should have given anky shants stomp.

[rustic torrent]

LOL

[lean shoal]

basically a 1 shot to the face and insane damage otherwise.

[rustic torrent]

Anky tail does 1000 damage per tick it's in movement like trample

obliterate everything

[lean shoal]

i persionally wanted ankys weight to be 11k.

just so it felt tanky.

[rustic torrent]

phat

I'm ok with it being 5/6 tons but give it a shit ton of HP

since weight based combat is outie

[lament cloak]

anky should have realtivly low hp, but an an armor mechanic to make up for it

basically attacks that don't pierce armor, (like bites and scratches) wont do as much damage, but attacks like a stegos swing or a trikes horns would split the armor relativly easily, making it reduce the damage by very little, strong blunt attacks (like another ankys tail) would also not get affected by the armor very much. the armor would also be weaker in certain areas like the head, but very strong in others like the top of its body.

that can also be used on minmi since it has its own bit of armor

[lean shoal]

anky should have extreme damage reduction on most of its body with decent enough health. ankys health should be around its weight but not so low that it gets destroyed easily by other apexes. anky should be a slow buritish animal to fight where a single hit from the anky can spell doom to you but if you get a head shot as something like a rex it should severly damage the anky and a grapple from the rex should just straight kill on the head.

tail takes 95% reduced damage. legs and head take normal damage from normal hits but smaller animals do reduced damage instead (probably around 50% reduction on legs and 75% on head). back takes 80%+ reduced damage and sides take 75% to small animals.

either you crush/pierce its skull as stego, rex or trike or you flip it over. otherwise anky is very hard to kill.

also anky takes massively reduced bleed to its armored body portions and its tail takes no bleed.

or there could be a system where ankys armor gets damaged after each hit with some armor like the tail or back taking a large amount of damage to break it.

[versed rune]

@rustic torrent in regards to your suggestion, nerfing carno's bite force is a horrible idea. do that and we get legacy carno where its literal only strength is speed. it defeats carno's entire playstyle of "hit and run" or being an "assassin" if it can't dispatch prey quickly. carno could not even one shot a dryo in legacy, and we dont need that again. carno is easy to juke, so if you don't see it running directly at you in a straight line that's on you

[alpine plover]

you wouldn't believe how many players run in a straight line against carnos

(most of them being utahs)

[lament cloak]

wdym carnos entire playstyle of "hit and run" that is not carnos play style at all, carno is meant to be a small game hunter that doesn't fight things in its own weight class, it should have a pack limit of 2 and take 2 carnos to kill 1 teno, anything bigger than teno is entirely out of its prey list

maybe for the time being but that nerf is a good one later on

[versed rune]

i could be wrong but iirc dondi's reasoning for putting carno in evrima was to "give tenonto something to run from"

[lament cloak]

dondi says alot of things

[alpine plover]

it's the exact opposite currently

[lament cloak]

take it all with a grain of salt

[spare badger]

Bro tenonto literally CANT run from carno it's faster wth???

What's his logic behind that

It makes no sense

[sinful cove]

carno players run away in easy to follow patterns, don't wallow and then complain that tenonto catches them because it has better stam

[versed rune]

thats why teno also has better agility, more stam, and enough power to fight back effectively

[lament cloak]

carno easily have enough speed to get far enough away from a teno to wallow, (especially since tenos have to stop to sniff your tracks) or just find a path a run away on that because those hide your tracks too

[rustic torrent]

Current Carno is a bit too cancerous to everything else in the game. The game is not a 1 shot everyone insta win simulator anymore, and it shouldn't be. (Also, not like a Dryo can do much after it gets bit by a Carno anyway, so that point is kinda moot.) Carno isn't a garbage playable omg hashtag garbage by losing a bit of its damage power, considering charge exists. Which isn't utilized as an asset in the game right now BECAUSE Carno's damage is so damn high. The charge should be a valuable and sometimes necessary tool, like Utahs pounce. But Carno can straight face tank everything or apply ludicrous amounts of damage and bleed bc of it's stupid high biteforce
You don't need 350 biteforce against juvies, or a Hypsi/Dryo/Utah/Pachy/Troodon/Beipi or any of the MANY small playables that exist or will exist soon, 250 does the job just fine and has the added bonus of not making the playable straight bullshit to fight against. You don't get to be the fastest dinosaur in the game and also have the biteforce of an Allo and the dexterity of a Tenonto too, that's just unfair lol

[spare badger]

^^^

exactly

[rustic torrent]

idk about y'all, but I want my favourites to be balanced not overpowered to shit

[lament cloak]

maybe for the current roster 350 damage is pretty good, but a lowered (250 seems to good me) damage is definitly needed once more animals that carno is actually meant to hunt comes in

aka smalls

[rustic torrent]

I think once Pachy is out it should definitely get the damage reduced bc that's just another playable that goes onto the Carno shitlist

[spare badger]

Yup

[alpine plover]

Utah was supposed to be the "counter" to sub adult Carnos
But the filter clearly hasn't had it's intended effect
With Carno's speed, it's relatively easy to avoid conflict and scavenge to get by

Let's say that even with only a 200 biteforce

Carno still has a lot going for it

And can still win fights against Teno's by utilizing it's charge

[rustic torrent]

Exactly

250 still 4 shots Utahs with body shots, which isn't much if you knock it on its ass with a charge

It just means Carno can't run around bullying things bigger than it (which it does really well, which is super out of character)

[sinful cove]

probably wouldnt hurt actually to lower utah's hp to 750 since for some reason he has twice the hp as his weight even though he's scrawny af

so carno can still hunt it as effectively as currently, since it is in his size range of prey

[spare badger]

Carnos shouldn't he able to facetank a teno they should charge

[alpine plover]

This would pressure Carno's to be more tactical when it fights
Thereby encouraging "hit and run" fights rather than brawling like a Cera

[rustic torrent]

current Carno fights how legacy Rex fights, sit in your opponent and bite and turn your brain off

If Carno's damage goes down, Tenonto's could probably follow suit at least a little bit, making Tenonto less cancerous to Utahs in the process

It's a win win for the ecosystem

[spare badger]

Fair

Utah v teno is honestly a joke

One on one at least

Utah can't do much if the teno has a brain

Multiple is a different story tho

[rustic torrent]

Teno is literally hard Utah counter lol

[alpine plover]

The claw attack is a bit much tbh
I'm fine with the slam and kicks

[spare badger]

Claw should do a little less

[rustic torrent]

I think kick could be reduced to 250 too, leave the tail slam as the heavier hitter

[sinful cove]

utah should be majorly disadvantaged against tenonto ina 1v1 though, it controls the conflict

[alpine plover]

Nah I think the kicks and slams should be left alone

[sinful cove]

the utah can disengage at any time

[alpine plover]

Utah's can be pretty nifty if played well

It would be the Teno's job to be patient and get that stun to land

[golden coral]

Carno should not do hit and run, why would it? You're a small game hunter, you hit them, knock em down, and finish em off. And I don't think tenno is an issue, except the run time stamina is a bit too good on it.

[alpine plover]

It's just that the claw is a turn off brain attack

[rustic torrent]

I think kick should only be reduced if Carno's damage is reduced, to keep Teno along similar lines at the very least

Could always tweak it, maybe 275 if 250 is too low

[alpine plover]

The issue lies with the claw
Not the kick for Teno

[spare badger]

I can kill a carno it like 7 hits with claw

[rustic torrent]

how much does the claw do?

I thought it was around the same as the bite

[spare badger]

No

[alpine plover]

I think around the same, but it applies bleed, is much faster, and can telegraph for aoe

[spare badger]

It's higher by enough

[rustic torrent]

The kick is easily spammable too tho

It mows down Utahs like nothing

[alpine plover]

True but it's jukeable
Costs stam, and the more it's used the more the situation get's worse for it

Less stam means more effective bleed against it, and will reach a point it can no longer escape a confrontation

[spare badger]

You can kick only 12 times then all you can do is claw and bite

I think kick is fine

[alpine plover]

Honestly it'd be fine if they adjust the speed on the claw attack

It works like a lawnmower rn for zero stam

[spare badger]

It used to be much slower

[alpine plover]

Yeah

It was too slow

Though now it's too fast

They need to hit the sweet spot

[spare badger]

I do think that carno should hunt teno
Cerato prob should tho

[rustic torrent]

I guess all the Utahs I fight are braindead lmao

4 of them couldn't get me I kicked 2 of them and slammed them to death like 10 seconds later

Carno should hunt Teno, it just has to be careful about it

Which it mostly is

[spare badger]

No

They really aren't

I fought a pack the other day

They just run straight into you

[rustic torrent]

Though the charge + super biteforce is pretty potent

I mean Carno should be careful about it

the average player is dumb

[golden coral]

Well, pack vs a solo tenno does mean the carnos can afford to not be as careful, that makes some sense?

[spare badger]

If you misttime the slam you take a lot of damage, too much honestly. They should be charging but they aren't, so obviously prefer bite l cause it's too strong lol

I was in a small herd

2 herdmates died

There were over 7 carnos, 9 killed 3, others ran

It should be more careful

[versed rune]

if by that you mean teno tail slam, getting punished for missing it is fine. You can rapid fire the tail slam too

[spare badger]

I don't miss per se, but if I got it a tad too late I take way too much damage for a creature that is supposed to hunt small game

Like half health

That to me seems like a cerato level of damage

Not a carno

[versed rune]

teno can bring a carno to half health in 2 tail slams. I’m also 90% sure that the “weak muscle-driven bites” thing for carno and allo was debunked a hot minute ago.

[spare badger]

Do you mean the hatchet style bite that Allo needed to do? I wasn't aware that applied to carno, or that it was debunked.

Keep in mind with the tail slams is that teno needs headshots, it doesn't do bleed, and it can only use them 10 times if the teno only walks. Add on the bleed reducing Stam regen its overall worse for the teno. Not by much bit it's noticeable

My take on it is teno can't run away, but carno can, so teno should have a winning matchup. Right now, carno does too much damage for that. I have the opinion that carnos damage should be nerfed when pachy comes out.

[spare badger]

Also can you tell me the paper that debunked it?

[golden coral]

Don't tenno have a winning matchup 1v1 vs a carno if the carno does not land the charge? Or at least a decent enough change to win, or escape if neccesary?

[lament cloak]

good carno doesn't charge a teno UNLESS you have a good ambushing opportunity, you loose a good amount of stamina for an attack that is most likely not going to hit. you NEED to ambush if you are going to charge a teno, but if you land it its pretty much dead

[spare badger]

It's about 50/50, but I think it should be a bit more tenons favour. Teno cannot escape unless there is a thick forest nearby, it's too slow for carno

[tight pecan]

I think the old Carno slam-bite and the Allo hatchet-bite were different even before more modern looks at those animals. Teno and Carno weren't really matched up IRL, but game balance wise I think they're a good match for one another. I don't think it's quite 50/50 though. I've seen tenos mop up carnos more so than vice versa, but that might also be because carnos are so desperate lately for food and are playing so dumb.

[spare badger]

I do agree a lot of carnos lack a brain, and run straight towards a teno with it's tail facing it, but any good carno doesn't do that, which makes it more carnos favour I think

[tight ermine]

@dusky surge I agree Stego kinda sucks. I've killed them solo with a Utah. I think their tail swing needs to be faster. The animation is so slow it can easily be avoided.

[dusky surge]

i dont mind if the steg has low swing speed because its an instant kill, but he NEEDS more variety in moves

hence trample

its just... not worth the 5 hours atm

especially while its equivalent in carnivores is the all-powerful deino

[tight ermine]

Stego is only viable against deino or in large herds. I think they will buff it eventually. I still think it needs faster swing, it doesn't matter if it only takes 1 hit to kill if everything can easily avoid being hit.

[spare badger]

Or give it a cc swing

Like PoT Stego or legacy stego

A stomp would work too

Just something

Also the stab uses too much Stam it's it's only viable attack

[tight ermine]

I'm OK with stomp, but a useless tail swing just makes stego seem unstego like.

[dusky surge]

CC could make him far more interesting tbh

makes him WAY scarier

[spare badger]

Maybe you could swing your tail in the cc way while running/moving

Less damage, less bleed, but usable whole moving, swings behind it, left to right

[dusky surge]

idk

i feel the instant kill is a big part of his kit

[spare badger]

A headshot will kill a Utah still

But not a body shot

[dusky surge]

i mean, yea

[spare badger]

It would be really low

But like if it's the same strength the stab would be less useful

[serene spoke]

@pallid relic i agree that baby utahs shouldnt do bleed to an adult stego bc of its thic skin, but little utahs do no bleed and if they hop on u just buck then swing and they are dead its that simple or even just bite them, if ur dying to little utahs as a full adult stego thats a you problem not balance.

[cedar shore]

@unkempt glacier Charge has a very intender cooldown on use. You can see the cooldown timer right below the stamina bar.

[pallid relic]

@serene spoke Maybe you want to read my original comment again because it's really hard to talk to people when they only read half of your stuff, or maybe you have a reading weakness? That's a you problem. I didn't only fight baby utahs, that would be ridiculous. First and foremost i fought a big pack of adult carnos, 4 or 5 in total. After i killed 2 of them i started getting jumped by baby utahs who obviously were the 2 carnos i killed earlier... They just kept respawning everytime i killed them. It's not about baby utah damage, it's about them keeping my bleed going constantly.

[serene spoke]

Baby utahs don't do enough bleed to stop you from regaining bleed and they have a 5min cooldown to spawn near you plus, they will still have to run a fair amount of distance to get to you (since they are baby's). ik u didn't just fight baby utahs but you shouldn't be getting jumped by utahs 8 times, it should only be 2 pounces if that. i guarantee it wasn't just the utahs keeping the bleed on you because the time it would take for the baby utahs to keep ur bleed on is not enough time compared to them respawning unless you are letting them pounce you and regaining their stam back repeating, therefor not being a balance issue but just a player improvement . i read ur entire comment and don't say i have a reading weakness. just don't.

[pallid relic]

5 minute respawn divided by 2 is 2.5 per utah i have to deal with. Let's be generous and give another minute on top since i know where i was, close to swamp mouth, that's southeast spawn for you if you don't know the map. About 30 seconds from that spawnarea to my location and even that's a stretch, so don't come at me with "fair amount of distance". You keep on assuming as if you were there and watched the whole situation. Most people understood the problem at hand and agreed that something should be done about it and you come at me and try to argue my playstyle. I am tired of this conversation and it's gonna stop now.

[still isle]

anyone have thoughts on my idea for taco?

[serene spoke]

im agreeing with you and what you say is a playstyle, is really just being good or bad (nothing wrong with being an expert or terrible, not saying ur either. just clarifying). 3.5mins is enough time to stop bleed if ur getting pounced by little utahs. im not arguing with you, im telling you how to deal with the utahs and that it is a you problem not balance problem. for some reason you think im having a go at you then decide to be hostile and say i have a reading weakness but use a question mark to cover urself. when all im trying to tell you its **NOT ** a balance problem but more a player improvement issue.

[tight ermine]

I thought troodon is getting mimicry. I dont know if it could mimick humans

[still isle]

im not thinking mimickry im talking straight up communication

[lean shoal]

easiest way to fix stego is to give it an actual tail swing that covers its sides well instead of the very laggy jab.

[dusky surge]

i mean, sure, but i feel stego lacks flavour

[unkempt glacier]

no no i see that when it actually works, the issue is i can go over an hour without being allowed to use it again even after the little red timer has disappeared i thought resting reset the bug to let me use it again but it doesn't always work

at least i hope it's a bug and not a feature lmao

[cedar shore]

Are you sure you were running at full speed when activating it though?

[rich salmon]

I've also noticed that right clicking to initiate the charge while running full sprint is sometimes quite unreliable after the first charge

[unkempt glacier]

yep i put a lot of distance before i try to use it, i listen out for the little snort noise my carno makes and it just doesn't happen and i end up almost dying from it

[cedar shore]

You should prob report it then or something aswell as rephrace your suggestion

[unkempt glacier]

i will report it yeah. i wanted to make sure it was actually a bug rather than something only i was experiencing or doing wrong first

[lament cloak]

a swing wouldn't be useless, it would be aoe meaning it is much harder to avoid, it would do less damage than the jab so you use the swing against smaller creatures, and the jab against bigger, slower creatures

[slim dragon]

What
A tail swing makes stego look unstego like ? But a stomp is fine ? What kind of logic is that ?

[spare badger]

A tail swing is the most stego thing. If it were a trike then maybe

[gray oar]

How would you even achieve that

[raw cypress]

nahhhh

any stego hit should insta a utah

like, with the tail

[spare badger]

Remember that Utah weighs as much as a polar bear
A glancing blow sweep shouldn't one shot imo

[hallow spire]

Yea the current Utah model just looks skinny and weak but technically it’s huge and a stego swings and hits it’s tail to a utahs head or body should be 1 shot if it hits it’s tail then it shouldn’t

[serene spoke]

wdym, u buck them off then swing when they hop off.

[gray oar]

No. To die to baby utahs.

[raw cypress]

And Anky is designed to break the legs of fucking apexes

[desert wave]

Remember that Stego has 2 really big spikes that would pierce the Utahs organs if it hits the body

[hallow spire]

Pretty sure he was talking about stegos lol

@sturdy terrace having a charge for a pounce could mess up somebody’s timing and if it was just for 0.3 seconds then there’s just no use for a charge plus there’s already a lot of counter play when it comes to utahs pounce rn,and it would make sense for utahs to pounce first since that’s its best way to bleed out something then bite it to death once it tries to lay down or wallow it shouldn’t be the opposite

[sturdy terrace]

Im not saying it has to be literally be 0,3 sec it would require playtesting to figure out the exact time. As for counterplay yes there are many ways of getting utahs of u by buckling and stuff but the main issues is for something that will be pounced onto the group like in utahvsutah

Utahs win condition is to pounce the other utah to the ground first

[hallow spire]

That’s why I suggested they give it a buck when it comes to getting pounced by another Utah bcuz ur basically dead once it happens

[dim crown]

Debatable, sometimes pouncing is a deathtrap.

[sturdy terrace]

Yeah if u pounce another utah with half stam u wont kill it and it will leave u wide open. But i still think it shouldn’t centered around the pounce

[grave veldt]

pouncing rn is only deathtrap cuz of the dismount issue

once thats fixed pounce would be in a pretty balanced spot imo

[sturdy terrace]

I honestly can’t wait for armor and armor piercing to be added.
Its gonna make fights have much more depth

[tight ermine]

I dont think you were following our conversation. I was advocating the devs need to buff the tail swing by making it faster and less predictable. ATM the tail swing is super easy to dodge and is useless against a single Utah that knows what it is doing. Right now a solo stego has to stick its head into a rock to stand a chance against a decent Utah.

[gray oar]

Inb4 Carnotaurus Back armor op

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure carnos won't have armor

Or a very low amount of it

[gray oar]

Have you seen its back ? It has special bumps that are considered to have served a protective function in combat against other Theropods, especially other Carnotaurus. Similar bumps are present on the back of modern Iguana where they do just that.

[slim dragon]

That's osteoderms, and that's not a lot of armor
Mabe enough to limit the injuries against another similar-sized animal when sparring, but that's not the toughest of armors
And carno has small ones, that are quite apart from each other
Unless they're just scutes

[sturdy terrace]

Balance wise i can see carno having a medium amount of armor but low hp

This makes him great against quick and agile creatures that often have no armor but weak against bulky high AP creatures because of his low total health

Weak against deino
Strong against utah and galli

[gray oar]

Sounds good to me.

[slim dragon]

@stark panther Isn't carno a little too big to be stunned by pachy ?

[dusky surge]

i think we should focus on Pachy breaking bones

that's already debilitating enough

[stark panther]

Not really

Carno is tall but lean

[slim dragon]

Pachy is Utah-sized

[sinful cove]

Pachy probably couldnt even reach carno’s head to give him a bonk and stun him unless the carno was sitting. I hope pachy specializes in stamina break and knee busting rather than stuns

[stark panther]

If Pachy realistically hit a carno in the face it would break its face

The problem with breaking bones

[dusky surge]

yea, pachy should not have an instant stun, he should have a long-lasting debilitating status effect as a result of his attack

[sinful cove]

Hopefully jaw break is a thing

Would be helpful for slower animals to get a predator to fuck off lol

[stark panther]

Imagine if a Pachy just mixed packed with its carni bodies and just started breaking people’s bones to they couldn’t run from the carnivores

[slim dragon]

I can see pachy breaking a carno's legs though

[dusky surge]

if you fight a pack of pachys, you should feel confident in killing the first as a carno, but the more you face the more you are weakened

[stark panther]

It’s toxic, I’d like to see bone break but it would have to be a low chance

[slim dragon]

Mixpacking is always toxic

[stark panther]

I think a stun with a long cool down on it would work

[slim dragon]

No RNG pls

[sinful cove]

Bone break shouldnt be rng

Ever again

[dusky surge]

RNG bonebreak sounds horrid

[sinful cove]

They are doing fracture stacking instead

[dusky surge]

makes pachy inconsistent

and thus no one will play him

[sinful cove]

A slower animal should have to cross fingers and hope their attack does what its supposed to with no way of controlling it

[stark panther]

I’ve been banned for nearly 4 years so I haven’t heard all the news. Like I said in my feedback message

[sinful cove]

Or a faster animal even, its just lame

[stark panther]

Stacking sounds pretty neat

I feel as if the diet system will help with a lot of the problems i mentioned as hopefully things like carno will rarely come into contact with Pachy once the game is complete

[slim dragon]

Well pachy could be part of carno's diet

[sinful cove]

Would be cool of we got jaw fracture that reduced bite scaling with stacking, arm fracture that weakens or disables pounces and hand grappling, tail fractures that weakens tail attacks and hinders maneuverability for theropods, rib fractures that removes chunks of stam with application and applies a cap to stam regen scaling with the stacks

[stark panther]

Balancing an unnatural ecosystem is hard when you want to keep each creature unique and true to what they actually were

[sinful cove]

Pachy vs carno shouldnt be much of an issue if pachy is agile enough and not a slug

[stark panther]

I mean, I’m a Pachy and Herra main so I’m happy as long as I get to play em

[stark panther]

I agree

[dusky surge]

a pachy would be pretty debilitating to carno with a well-placed leg hit. Without the carno's speed, it loses most of what makes it strong and becomes an easy target for most dinos who want to fuck it up

[stark panther]

I hope it’s like that, carno is just very agile right now

[dusky surge]

carno isnt agile

raptor is agile

carno is just FAST

[stark panther]

I mean, I have no issue chasing Utah’s down

[dusky surge]

agility does not mean speed

[stark panther]

Maybe in legacy it wasn’t agile

[dusky surge]

utahs can turn well, jump and move fast

they are very agile

carnos can be well avoided by any smart utah

[sinful cove]

Carno is def agile compared to its legacy version, just not in comparison to utah and teno

[slim dragon]

Everything is more agile than in legacy, carnos are still jukable in evrima though

[dusky surge]

thats true

legacy looks and feels sluggish compared to EVIRMIA

[stark panther]

True but what if the utah is new to the game?

[slim dragon]

Well it gotta learn

[stark panther]

And he more experienced carno finds it

[slim dragon]

That's the meaning of hardcore

[sinful cove]

Thats just how pvp works

[stark panther]

It could be deterring for new plays to get constantly slammed by carnos

[slim dragon]

Unless they go play carno until they know how to handle it ?

[sinful cove]

The skilled players kill the noobish players, unless there's a massive power gap it just happens

[slim dragon]

It's the case in most pvp games, when you meet a class you don't know for the first time, you get wrecked, then you go test it to understand its weaknesses, and next time you beat them

[stark panther]

Well obviously but how many people quit playing out of rage

[sinful cove]

Anyone familiar with PvP survival games should be prepared to get shitstomped when starting a new one

[stark panther]

Obviously you should be rewarded for skill

[sinful cove]

If they quit due to it they probably got the wrong game

[stark panther]

But is it really hard to chase a utah down as carno? I have not failed 1 utah hunt

[sinful cove]

Most utah players are below average iq from my experience

[slim dragon]

I have never died to a carno as a utah unless I was trying to solo it

[stark panther]

No matter how much the utah jumps, Jukes or runs I still get them

Maybe your right and most utah players just ain’t smart

[frosty heron]

Depends on what the Utahs are doing and how the Carnos chase it

They rarely manage to get me tho

[sinful cove]

Its a super popular dino so a lot of the airheads flock to it

[stark panther]

But I have had no issue hunting them as of yet, and Pachy has always been kinda underwhelming in its survival performance so I’m just think of ways to make it survive against things like carnos

[sinful cove]

Kinda like rex but without any of the challenge it will supposedly have

[frosty heron]

Sometimes even a single Carno commited the big mistake of fighting 4 or 5 of us solo and they just die to pounces

[sinful cove]

Hopefully pachy doesn’t get shit on here like it did in legacy

[stark panther]

Well I’m talking a 1 on 1 chase

[stark panther]

I hope so to

I’m honestly a big fan of how they treated tenonto

So I have high hopes for pachy

[frosty heron]

1 on 1 if the Utah is not dumb it will use dense forest and superior agility to juke Carnos

As I do, and even if they land the first bite on me by surprise, they never get me

[sinful cove]

Teno is like the one well done herbi rn, hoping pachy doesn't go the route of the other 3

[stark panther]

Yeah I get your point. I just personally have not lost a single utah hunt. Although most of the map is savannah as of now so it’s kinda carnos home turf

[stark panther]

I agree

[frosty heron]

That's why I stay out of open plains playing solo, and only coming out as a pack, as it should be

[stark panther]

Yeah maybe I just don’t realize how little people may understand hunting. I have been playing since 2015 so I guess that’s prolly why I slaughter Utah’s so easily

Well that’s pretty much all I have to say. Thanks for the chat

[supple basin]

For a utah point of view sometimes it looked like the carno was wifi hitting me. Prob a connexion problem but wanted to know if it was just me. Because I saw myself juking them and I died anyway

[slim dragon]

Lag is always there to kill you

[gray oar]

The whole Utah on anything combat is currently suffering from net code Issues. And really, what else are we going to expect from a combat system that relies on speed and reactions in this early Alpha stage ? This will by necessity get fixed at some point, and until then we just need to be a little patient.

[slim dragon]

yes

[dusky surge]

as someone who plays utah frequently, he does not need a buff lmao. I think he's in the best spot he's been in a while and needs really no additional changes, he's just an all-round pretty neat bleeder

neither does he need a nerf

i genuinely love him how he is

i played against a pack and, as a solo carno, got unsurprisably picked off, since well, I was an exposed fool in plains vs a pack of 100% raptors. I didn't feel cheated by it, since they managed to land good pounces and blows to keep me bleeding and outstam me for the final kill

he has counterplay, but I was foolishly walking into utah territory and got punished

[gray oar]

Any issues currently associated with Utah's will be fixed once the net code is improved and the entire jankyness and lag are gone. As far as people saying they need a buff goes, they definetly don't- I've lost Adult carnos to as little as 2 utahs, while being able to fight of packs of 5 with sub adults. The playerbase is really inconsistent.

[dusky surge]

utah is entirely skill-based

an unskilled utah will get fucking destroyed

[supple basin]

Yes it is learning of what the dino you play can do and can not do.

[spare badger]

I think that carno will need a small bite force nerf for when pachy comes out

Or pachy could have a low armour that reduces damage or something

[alpine plover]

When does it take skill to press alt left click?

Hope they make an esport of ambushing as a deino in this game too

[slim dragon]

Isn't deino, out of all the playables, the one that requires the least skill to kill things as ?

[frank owl]

Pretty much. It's the current apex predator

[slim dragon]

It shouldn't be tho
It's not supposed to just go on land and kill everything else

[frank owl]

It doesn't. It only kills dummies they try to fight it on land

[slim dragon]

It's ok for deino to be able to kill the rest of the roster easily when ambushing them from water, but not go on a stroll and be unkillable

[frank owl]

Just run and hunt something in your weight class

[versed rune]

@frank owl if youre implying that deino alt bite doesnt need major readjustments and ALSO takes skill to use then i dont really know what to say here

[frank owl]

I'm implying uhh.... Get good kid.

Learn the game

[slim dragon]

There is a huge problem with deino's alt-bite though

[frank owl]

Carno and raptors aren't meant to hunt deino.

Ever

[slim dragon]

But stegos are meant to be able to beat deinos and land
Yet they can't

[frank owl]

Rex, giga, allo... Those are meant to kill dumb deino that go on land

Stegos can. And they do

[slim dragon]

Stegos are at a disatvantage against deino, because of the broken alt-bite

[frank owl]

Nope.

[versed rune]

lol

[slim dragon]

It's faster than the normal bite, deals as much damage and doesn't cost any stamina. Since deinos can phase trough stegos body and bite their head through their butt, they can simply spam alt-bite to facetank stegos and kill them

[frank owl]

https://youtu.be/lgi7lhnJSa4

Just skip to the end. And no. They can't.

[slim dragon]

All it needs is to cost stamina and/or have an endlag so that it can't be spammed as easily

[frank owl]

No. Body collision needs to be fixed. That's about it honestly

[slim dragon]

The deino in this video lost because it played poorly, honestly
It didn't even aim at the stego's head

It's also unfair that deino's alt-bite doesn't cost stamina while all other playables' alt-bite (except maybe ptera's) cost stamina.

[frank owl]

So alt bite gets stamina. Then you realize you can't even kill it because we're bleed resistant and you ppl can't even hurt us, even though we can't hurt you either... Then you're gonna want that nerfed...

YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED to hunt deino as raptors. Deinos does to force damage, which the only dinos that do enough of are stegos

[slim dragon]

The problem isn't that raptors can't hunt deinos... The problem is that deinos can go hunt on land

[alpine plover]

^

[frank owl]

No, they can't.

Just run away. Jesus

[alpine plover]

Sums up the issues

[frank owl]

Christ.

So many facepalm moments in here

[slim dragon]

true

The fact a carno pack has to run away from a land deino is a problem

[versed rune]

the irony hurts

[slim dragon]

Because if as you say, deino is the apex of water, carno is currently the apex of land

[alpine plover]

Tell me
What was the deino supposed to be the apex of again?

It was supposed to be of water right?

[dim crown]

Dam....

[frank owl]

They don't. If a deino is actually on land, ya'll can't get one hit. Just take your time and don't run in injured. You can wear one down but it'll take time. Bleed resist. But MOST of you ppl don't have the patience and try to play carno like it's a rex.

[versed rune]

again the problem isnt that people want deino to be an easy kill, its a giant crocodile and shouldnt go down like a punk. but its a problem when you can spam a singular powerful attack with zero drawbacks and win because of it

[alpine plover]

A deino can stroll up and steal food while being impervious to any counterplay because of it's alt bite
In water it's essentially invincible while being a safe haven from any potential threats
Is everyone up to speed here?

[dim crown]

Most ppl havent adapt to Evrima, thats main issue here.

[versed rune]

its like if carno's charge had zero cooldown, no increased stamina drain, and could be activated while walking

[slim dragon]

Tbh deino's alt-bite should have a longer endlag and cost stamina, but deal more damage than its regular bite
A little like Utah's Alt-bite

[alpine plover]

Besides, a gator that heavy and massive can't whip around like that with zero consequence if we were to use the realism argument
Doesn't make sense realistically
Doesn't make sense in balance either

[dim crown]

For every alt-bite the Deino misses, is a window to go in and bite it.

[versed rune]

this

[dim crown]

It cant waste stam on alt-bite

Deino i mean.

[alpine plover]

Except that it costs zero stam and Deino has the hp to make the risk of trade not worth it

[slim dragon]

Deino's alt-bite is supposed to be a defensive tool for when you're attacked while on land, not an offensive one

[alpine plover]

Stego's and Teno's power attacks cost stam

[versed rune]

in fact every power attack costs stam

[dim crown]

Wrong.

[versed rune]

carno charge, utah pounce, ptera flight

[alpine plover]

How so
Last time I checked it cost zero stam to alt bite as Deino?

[dim crown]

Try attack on land, as Deino, the wrong ppl, and you screwed.

[alpine plover]

Not with alt bite you aren't

[frank owl]

You can drop the realism aspect.

[alpine plover]

It will shred both Carno and Utah packs

[slim dragon]

Who talked about realism here ?

[dim crown]

Realism dies when Deino bites. Irl crocs dont fight like that.

[frank owl]

Nacen

"Besides, a gator that heavy and massive can't whip around like that with zero consequence if we were to use the realism argument
Doesn't make sense realistically
Doesn't make sense in balance either"

[alpine plover]

Read the quote thoroughly

[frank owl]

I did

[versed rune]

you cant expect players to want to behave like a literal crocodile.

[alpine plover]

"If we were to use the realism argument"

Now look at the if

[slim dragon]

If it doesn't make sense realistically nor balance-wise, then it's probably bad

[frank owl]

I passed this grade. Thanks. I caught that... But realism isn't a factor. There is no if

[alpine plover]

So it's both not realistic nor is it balanced

What am I wrong about?

[frank owl]

Then this whole game is bad, because it's all scifi by your logic.

[dim crown]

Every missed alt-bite as Deino, and you could be screwed, you just giving an oppurtunity to get attacked.

[slim dragon]

In most games, you have to chose a middle-ground between realism and gameplay. Gameplay usually matters more. If something is bad for gaemplay though, it can still pass for being realistic. But if it's both bad for gameplay and unrealistic, then there is no reason to keep it

[versed rune]

thats a pretty big """"could""""

[alpine plover]

With Stego that applies
Because it actually has a vulnerable head and the more attacks it wastes, the more worse the fight get's for it

Not in Deino's case

[slim dragon]

What can "screw" a deino in the timespan between two alt-bites ? Surely not a utah or carno
Nor a teno

[frank owl]

Pretty big... Just like the weight class gap you're trying to reach over by attacking a 8ton gator with a 2 ton carno.

[slim dragon]

And I doubt a deino can miss a stego with its alt-bite

[frank owl]

Literally. The video I linked.

[dim crown]

They kind will in the future, with more stuff added to game, but i am just talking about how crocs fight, they grab you kinda like a snake, they dont bite.

[versed rune]

soooo isnt that a reason of why alt bite should take stam? since you should be trying to grab your opponent instead. like that renders biting as a completely defensive tactic.

[frank owl]

No.

[lament cloak]

that is the entire reason, deino is supposed to be using its grab to kill its targets. not just finding literally anything by the edge of the water and face tanking it

[alpine plover]

So what is the issue with making Deino's alt bite take stam?
What will break if there is a cost for it making it's best attack have consequence for using recklessly?

[dim crown]

No stam waste on alt bite as croc plz

[alpine plover]

Will it become unbalanced?

[slim dragon]

RUMO what do you use alt-bite for ?

[frank owl]

Yeah. That's showcased in the video I linked, but these... People... Just can't seem to grasp that concept.

[alpine plover]

Is that the issue?

[dim crown]

How does a croc turn in place? While on land?

[frank owl]

Alt bite

[vagrant mural]

Like every other dino

[alpine plover]

No one is advocating for a lunge nerf or Deino not to kill smaller tiers

You're not reading

[versed rune]

i mean lets be honest here if you're actually a decent deino player a little bit of stam drain on the alt bite wont affect you. just time your bites carefully. you have enough health to tank hits and make it back to water. if youre miles away from water as a croc and you get caught that's kind of on you........

[lament cloak]

then I dont understand what you are arguing for

[frank owl]

I do read @alpine plover and that's not what I said. READ.

[alpine plover]

I think I am
But no one understands you're position

[dim crown]

They dont turn all the same way, croc is very slow on land.

[vagrant mural]

Literally have watched gators walk from split to the base of canyons at shallows, eat, fight a carno pack, and take down a few with alt bite, and live to tell the tale

[lament cloak]

exactly

[frank owl]

I'm arguing against adding stamina drain to alt bite. We already can't run ten feet on land...

Why would we need to add stamina drain when all anything has to do is run away if a deino is hunting them on land??????

[vagrant mural]

It’s almost like that’s a built in weakness to help balance it

[dim crown]

Kinda

But not exactly

[vagrant mural]

And by pressing alt and left click for no price you negate that weakness

[frank owl]

It's almost like these ppl are trying to force gameplay that isn't meant to be??? 🤔🤔

[slim dragon]

Why are you even hunting on land ?

[versed rune]

because it is an instant turnaround attack that is faster than the normal attack and deals 500 base damage.

[lament cloak]

because deino isnt supposed to be running and biting things to death as deino. they are supposed to be grabbing them and lunging them, nerfing alt-bite will make them do this

[frank owl]

NO one does. That's the point

[dim crown]

Miss an alt-bite in front of the wrong crew, and your gettin bitten

[frank owl]

THAT'S THE POINT

[vagrant mural]

A lot of people do

[slim dragon]

Then people are having a lot of hallucinations lately

[frank owl]

Dumb deinos do, yeah.

And they die

[vagrant mural]

I have seen the land gator packs that have no reason to win

And they get away

[alpine plover]

Because the alt bite has no counter play
And it's mainly regulated to water areas where it thrives
Deino should not be hunting on land or owning everything on land.

[lament cloak]

no they dont since you can spam alt bite and be completely untouchable

[dim crown]

Wrong.

[frank owl]

Let me reiterate for you.

NO. ONE. DOES. THAT.

[lament cloak]

I want you to be ANYTHING that isnt 2 or more stegos and try to kill an alt biting deino

[vagrant mural]

Since when was deino supposed to run up and bite stuff

[alpine plover]

It's happened and I can for sure tell you that other people can vouch

[slim dragon]

Okay playerbase knowledge test. Do dryos attack and kill utah packs ?

[vagrant mural]

Instead of actually ambushing and grappling

[alpine plover]

It still does happen

[frank owl]

If a deino is hunting on land, and you run towards it... You. Are. Dumb

End of story

[slim dragon]

Deino isn't supposed to be invincible on land

Invincible in water, why not, but not invincible on land

It's out of its element

[alpine plover]

If a Deino is camping food on land with no counterplay
Well guess you can't do much and just starve
No matter the pack size or technical skill of the players

[frank owl]

Nothing in the lineup of current dinosaurs is supposed to hunt deino.

Rex is coming. Freakin wait.

[slim dragon]

Actually Utah should, it's an apex killer

[frank owl]

Jesus.... 😒

No it's not.

[vagrant mural]

Eh

Not really

[alpine plover]

If there's enough numbers then yeah

[slim dragon]

It's literally meant to take on large things as a pack

[vagrant mural]

Stego can’t even kill competent deinos now lmao

[alpine plover]

20 of them, they said would do the trick

[lament cloak]

yes it is, actually, utah is meant to group up to kill things in weight classes far above its own.

[slim dragon]

What do you think it's poounce and super huge bleed is for ?

[dim crown]

Last croc that tried chase me on land, died from dehydration.... ez
He wanted to get back to water but whos letting em, ez to fight a croc on land, imo, they have all against them if they get out of the water.

[frank owl]

Not without losing many many utahs in the process, no.

[alpine plover]

Point still stands

[slim dragon]

That'd still be more interesting gameplay-wise if deino's alt-bite costed stamina but dealt more damage than its regular bite

[versed rune]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-challenge-gif-18899849

deino mains taking the "dont explain why 10 carnos should lose to 1 deino on land for 5 seconds" challenge

[dim crown]

Utahs can solo any dino in the roster, not ez but fun

[slim dragon]

That way it can actually punish cocky enemies but is punishable if it gets cocky itself, everyone is happy

[vagrant mural]

1. How do you know it died from dehydration 2. Dumb deino if it really chased you that far on land 3. Deino can literally just hold it’s ground and as soon as you approach alt bite to negate your existence

[alpine plover]

So just to make this clear

We want

[frank owl]

No one cares

[lament cloak]

deino should be legacy rex. I want to run up to everything and just face tank it because that is fun

[vagrant mural]

I watched over 6 tenos spam tail slam on a land deino and over half of them died

[alpine plover]

A water apex to be good on land
Invincible in water
Have great hunger and water resist
And have zero counterplay

[slim dragon]

Don't say this, some people in this conversation actually think that

[frank owl]

You don't understand deino. It doesn't matter what you want because you don't understand it or know how to play it

[alpine plover]

I understand it pretty well

Not to hard to play actually

[frank owl]

Apparently not

[slim dragon]

Klaxon, the true and only Deino master

[vagrant mural]

That it’s supposed to ambush from the water? Oh no, I truly lack understanding of the designed purpose of this creature

[dim crown]

Dam

[lament cloak]

so deino is supposed to be played by walking onto land and face tanking everything?

[dim crown]

Ded deino

[frank owl]

No. I said no.

[alpine plover]

How must the mighty creature be played then

Please, bestow us this knowledge

[frank owl]

You can watch the video I linked. It's a pretty good example of how I play, and what not to do

[vagrant mural]

Oh great one who truly understands it

[frank owl]

Don't attack stegos 1v1 first of all

[lament cloak]

so then why not nerf to alt bite so it can't do that. because atm, that is a completely viable strategy, and if you say no then does that mean I, and many other people are hallucinating? because I see that all the time

[lament cloak]

why not? with alt bite you can face tank them

literally

and if you say you cant you are wrong

[frank owl]

No it's not. Deino can't hunt on land, unless what is hunting is completely stupid and doesn't stay clear.

[vagrant mural]

Yes they can

[alpine plover]

Hold up
This person has the muted role

Things are beginning to add up

[dim crown]

I do, but they cant see me.

[lament cloak]

they absofuckinglutly can, im not going to argue with someone deny facts

[alpine plover]

I think these are the same type of arguments you'll see when people defend their apexes back from legacy

They'd want them to be fast, powerful, and have little counterplay in most situations

[slim dragon]

Well I guess there's no point in continuing the discussion since they got muted

[vagrant mural]

Victory?

[alpine plover]

It is what it is

[alpine plover]

We're on a discord server fighting about dinosaur balance

There is no victory

[vagrant mural]

True