balance-feedback-discussion

[versed rune]

done.

[alpine plover]

Ai is a waste of time amarok is chill and is doing a good job but it isnt worth it

how to fix the isle

Step 1

Delete the isle

[golden coral]

Because then we're going to have a great ecosystem.. :p

[alpine plover]

dinosaur ai is just a shit idea

[versed rune]

110% agree

[golden coral]

Players can't and won't make a good ecosystem on their own, you know that right? :p

[versed rune]

carnivore AI is also the worst idea

the biggest AI creature should be dryo

anything bigger is an accident waiting to happen

[alpine plover]

Ai like this thats not fodder and plays a role in the ecosystem and can lead to more fun varied gameplay would be the best option

this should replace dyro ai

[golden coral]

Why are you opposed to ai, or carni ai? Evil ai rexes not a good idea? :p

[alpine plover]

Because it isnt why I bought the isle

[slim dragon]

How could this not be fodder ?

[alpine plover]

I want to interact with humans

not a computer

the whole charm of the isle is that most things are actually players

[slim dragon]

You're playing a videogame and don't want to interact with a computer ?

[versed rune]

because interacting with players is more fun, and im not really interested in losing my progress to an AI t rex, because at that point thats literally the game saying "fuck you, youre not allowed to play today"

[alpine plover]

it would be great at running away

[slim dragon]

I'm still waiting for someone to give me one single example of a survival game that works without AI

[alpine plover]

Its called massively multiplayer for a reason

[golden coral]

But why would it be different from a player rex just getting you? :p

[versed rune]

because at least a player has something to gain from killing me.

[alpine plover]

because it’s an actual player that needs to eat

[versed rune]

and i lost fair and square

the game can just spawn another t rex

[slim dragon]

You won't know it's an AI

[golden coral]

The Isle did work. But because of plenty of reasons, and we still didn't have a good ecosystem. Better one than we've had lately possibly, but nowhere near an actual one even back then.

[versed rune]

like this shouldnt even be an argument

[alpine plover]

this is literally impossible

[versed rune]

carnivore AI is a horrible idea

[slim dragon]

Did it ?

[alpine plover]

HUGE aaa companies cant manage to make godlike ai

how will amarok do it by himself?

No idea

[golden coral]

Nah, carnivor and herbivore ai both is a good idea, and probably needed to balance the ecosystem out as well as provide a challenge and all that.

[slim dragon]

I know indie games that have very good AI

[alpine plover]

are they like the isle

[golden coral]

@slim dragonYeah, we survived in prog without AI after all, even I could do it :p

[alpine plover]

do they have 1 dev working on it

[versed rune]

the isle is a complex game though, in the sense that every player acts like a..... well..... player

[slim dragon]

No, but I don't see the point

[alpine plover]

well there ya go

[versed rune]

AI will ALWAYS have patterns that make it able to be differentiated from a player

[slim dragon]

Did the devs say they want to have only 1 person working on AI forever ?

[alpine plover]

ai in a game as complex as the isle doesn’t work

Man this discussion has been going on for awhile now

[slim dragon]

You say that like players don't have patterns...

[alpine plover]

they currently do, and it takes huge teams to make a decent ai

We need 30, maybe 50 AI guys

if they want ai to be how they want

[versed rune]

they dont. because as dumb as some players are each is an individual thinking human

[golden coral]

It doesn't have to be that complex I don't think..

Players aren't that complex either.. :p

[alpine plover]

….

I guess humans aren’t complex

[versed rune]

but youre missing the point that they are HUMANS

[alpine plover]

we’re just hairless apes not complex

[golden coral]

I didn't say humans, I said players ^^

[versed rune]

an AI isnt going to run back and forth wiggling at an enemy to taunt them

[alpine plover]

players are humans

[slim dragon]

Play For Honor, you'll see that players are much more predictable than AI at times

Even though For Honor Ai isn't exactly good

[versed rune]

an AI isnt going to 4 call to trick another player into thinking that theyre scared, but then circle around and attack again

[slim dragon]

They will if you tell them to

[alpine plover]

A.I is just going to mindlessly charge and bite

Huh

[alpine plover]

ai is never going to be that smart

even hypothetically if ai was that good, I would still complain.

[slim dragon]

If you think so, I understand why you don't want AI at all in the game and why this conversation is pointless

[golden coral]

I'm inclined to side with Necro here. If we want a proper ecosystem we'll need ai. Both herbi and carni, be it other dinos or.. some other critter.

[alpine plover]

the isle isnt like most games

[alpine plover]

we need a smaller map

the isle is....well. the isle.

and incentives to play like animals

boom, a somewhat functioning ecosystem

simple.

[slim dragon]

Won't work

First, players aren't supposed to act like animals

[golden coral]

That won't fix anything but player interaction itself

[versed rune]

but it still fixes something.

[alpine plover]

Well to be fair, humans are humans

[golden coral]

Map size does not relate to ecosystem

[alpine plover]

people play how they want

[slim dragon]

Second, I doubt 75% of players will play herbies/prey (which is the bare minimum for a fuctioning ecosystem

[versed rune]

it absolutely does

[golden coral]

And yes, we are supposed to play as animals, but we're not good at it :p

[golden coral]

It does not. At all.

[alpine plover]

It does

[slim dragon]

We aren't animals even in the lore

[golden coral]

We've had smaller maps

[golden coral]

No.

[versed rune]

and those smaller maps functioned better.

infinitely

[golden coral]

There were no ecosystem on them either

[slim dragon]

^

[alpine plover]

A 220x220 map will have a harder time forming a ecosystem then a 8x8 map

do you disagree?

[versed rune]

there was never an ecosystem on the big ones either

[golden coral]

The only thing that mildly enforced something was progression, and it had nothing to do with map size

[golden coral]

Yes because map size does not relate to what players choose to play

And that's the thing. You can't make the players make up an ecosystem when everone wants to be a rex, or at least a carni

[alpine plover]

the players wont even meet each other on the big map

like the ecosystem wouldn’t even have a chance to form

[golden coral]

That's player interaction Dio, nothing to do with if we get an ecosystem itself

[slim dragon]

That's why we need AI

[versed rune]

people pick ptera or carno in evrima over things like stego or deino SPECIFICALLY so they can move quicker across the map

[golden coral]

There's a difference there

[golden coral]

That doesn't make for an ecosystem though? And people play plenty deino, to say the least

[alpine plover]

player interaction matters in a ecosystem

[versed rune]

because 80% of the map isnt in use

so people are more comfortable playing slow things

because they know where hotspots are

[alpine plover]

7x7 redwoods map would be ideal

no ai needed

[golden coral]

In what way? :p

[slim dragon]

For a deathmatch

[alpine plover]

you dont see lions feeding hyenas

[golden coral]

Fuck does that have anything to do with it?

[slim dragon]

[alpine plover]

well animals interact in certain ways

[golden coral]

Explain why a smaller map will suddenly make 80% of the playerbase play herbivores? Also explain how it would make them choose smaller/mid herbivores over trike 90% of the time?

How does the map size suddenly make them choose that instead of all going carnis/rexes?

[alpine plover]

making herbies fun will do that

[golden coral]

....

I asked how the map sizes related to it

[slim dragon]

There is no way you can get 80% of people play herbi

[golden coral]

Answer the question or stop claiming that map has anything to do with ecosystem

[slim dragon]

The only way to do that would be to make carnies unable to attack

[versed rune]

basically the point here is that enormous maps are a horrible idea, theyve been tested multiple times and each time they have to redo the map because 90% of the map is inactive

[golden coral]

I know that. It's an example, I'm triyng to understand why they think map size will suddenly make an ecosystem when it hasn't before :p

[alpine plover]

an ecosystem cant form if every animal is too far away to even interact

[golden coral]

We've had tiny maps most of the time, and from what I recall, v4 was pretty nice, as was v3 at times, before changes. (and in v4s case, never finished..)

[slim dragon]

There's your mistake. You're trying to understand something that doesn't make sense

[golden coral]

No, but that doesn't make them make an ecosystem just because they can interact, which was my point. You're just thinking of player interaction, not of what will interact

[alpine plover]

at least they can attempt to make a ecosystem

on the small map

[golden coral]

Fair enough, but it won't work out the way you think, we've seen that

[versed rune]

v3
v4
v3 2.0
v3 3.0
v3 4.0
Spero
Spiro

all giant maps and the only one that is still relevant is spiro and its because its the only map we have. They gave up on making v4, spero was delayed because it was LITERALLY too big, and v3 had 4 separate iterations.

[golden coral]

Yes, you'll have interaction and some sort of "food web" but it won't be a good ecosystem, because players

You'll have 90% carnis eating carnis, nothing else

V4 and V3 (at least some versons) were fine enough I'd say

[alpine plover]

we have mechanics to fix that

diets

Alright I shall be going, goodb

ideally a universal fracture system will reward defensive herbie gameplay

[alpine plover]

gn

[slim dragon]

How will diets fix that if you can't follow your diet because no one plays your favorite diet ?

[golden coral]

So it has nothing to do with the map size except that obviously players need to meet each other, and how often/much that is can be debated

[slim dragon]

You think people will play herbi so they can fulfill a carnivore's diet ?

[alpine plover]

Small map

[versed rune]

im probably gonna dip too, arguing to a brick wall is sort of tedious lol

[slim dragon]

[alpine plover]

me to ive been up too long anyways

[golden coral]

Well I guess if you have no arguments that actually work :p

[alpine plover]

[golden coral]

:D

[alpine plover]

,

[versed rune]

the

isle

[golden coral]

? :D

[cedar shore]

@mystic valley deinos doesnt have 8000 hp they have 6000

[mystic valley]

It says on the wiki they have 8000

My bad then

[grave veldt]

the wiki says a lot of things that dont rly make sense nor are right either

best to ask QA members stat numbers

[cedar shore]

@versed rune No, just no. The matchup is as balanced as it can be

if you keep dying the same way try experimenting with different fighting strategies

[vapid fable]

@rapid harness how are you starving to death that thing has 1 hour 30 minutes hunger time

do you not eat fish

you literally cannot die of hunger as deino, you only need to eat twice to grow to full adult

[rapid harness]

Oh i didnt starve to death

You know the devs wants it to be realistic and stuff right? Well you can go 1 hour before a guy comes to drink at the river you set ambush in.

[vapid fable]

you still wouldn't die cuz you have 1 hour 30 minutes hunger time

[rapid harness]

Yes if you find something big

If its a utah or something it might give you another...20-30mins on the timer?

[vapid fable]

there's also fish

[rapid harness]

yeah but my request was more to support the ambush gameplay

not swimming everywhere all the time

im the guy who can wait there 2 hour to ambush xD

[slim dragon]

@primal token I think the problem comes from lag and desync rather than balance

[primal token]

@slim dragon I have never experienced anything like it as a Utah or any other dino than Carno

[slim dragon]

Maybe it's much more visible with those because they're faster, so it's much more noticeable

[primal token]

Thats a valid point

but then they should focus more on the carno imo

[slim dragon]

They're always trying to improve their network and hit registration system

[primal token]

ik

but Utahs are more agile than Carnos so im not rly sure tbh

I feel utahs hit registration is on point

I only play Carno and Utah btw

As a Carno I have no fear

[slim dragon]

Maybe you should try other playables and see if the "hit from super far away" still happens
If that's not the case, then it's a proof that carno's hitboxes are fucked

[primal token]

running into a big group of 6 Utahs is no problem you know

I have played everything

more than 100 hours already in Evrima

[primal token]

Thats why I said they should ckeck it

thx for the response

[slim dragon]

np

[novel tulip]

Skilled utahs, even just 2 or 3 of them, can easily take a full grown carno

Solo utahs can easily juke them and get away, they only get caught if theyre ambushed or just run away in a straight line

Carnos are supposed to be small game hunters, so them having an overwhelming advantage against Utah in a 1v1 is perfectly fine

As bubul said desync sucks but its not part of balance. And it also disadvantages carnos just as much

[primal token]

@novel tulip So you are saying that 2 skilled Utahs can take on a skilled Carno because thats not true

[novel tulip]

3 for sure

2 if the carno is decent or bad the odds are against

[primal token]

it is at least very unlikely in the current state of the game

yeah 3 maybe...

I mean Carnos are not rly that early game hunters

[mystic valley]

2 is possible but 3 is more likely

[novel tulip]

Just the other day I saw a pack of 3 who knew what they were doing hunt and kill 2 carnos

And they were good carnos

[primal token]

Its hard to believe it was a skilled carno ngl

But glad to hear somebody is actually doing it I guess

[novel tulip]

They were, but with how coordinated the utahs were they didn't really have a chance against the pounce

Packs of even higher do even better

[primal token]

Still doesn't make up for the fact that Carnos hit range is prob broken

@novel tulip atm when you jump off a skilled carno he will definitely get at least 1 headshot on you tho

[novel tulip]

Do you know that for a fact or have you not even eliminated server desyncing as an issue

[primal token]

I have taught a lot about that, and I dont think thats the issue

[novel tulip]

Why not

[primal token]

try reading some of the other balance feedbacks

[novel tulip]

What evidence do you have

[primal token]

Im telling them to check it not fix it

This is only imo

[novel tulip]

I've been hit/evaded by utahs from unrealistic ranges, but I'm not claiming hitboxes

[primal token]

like I said

The I promise you, "you haven't played enough of Utah"

its rly bad

What rly proves it is the fact that no Carno is scared of running directly into 3 Utah's

even "new players"

[novel tulip]

Why are you saying that if you only play utah

[primal token]

This is still only what my friends and I have experienced playing Evrima

[novel tulip]

I only play carno and I do not take my chances with utah packs solo, especially if theyre all adults

[primal token]

I have played all dinos more than 5 times

I play alot of carno too

like I said before

[novel tulip]

Utah is balanced right now, the only thing that need to be fixed is the lag after dismounting

[primal token]

Maybe thats why you have not experienced the carnos long attack range

[novel tulip]

Which should be made into a stam management feature instead of instant death

[primal token]

I do not belive so

[novel tulip]

Literally as a carno I will bite directly on top of a utah and it won't even hit

[primal token]

But I respect your opinion

Thats on your side

not the game

[novel tulip]

Most of the time I never even kill utahs unless I ambush them because of how agile and evasive they are of bites

Ok, then your "long hit range" problem is "on your side"

[primal token]

Okay, have you played on a sandbox ish server?

[novel tulip]

Again, this is probably a desync issue and not a balance issue unless proven otherwise

[primal token]

When you are constantly fighting Carnos you will get what I mean

[novel tulip]

I play on those all the time

The hitbox on carno isn't as op as you're claiming

[primal token]

I believe the carno has a further range

[novel tulip]

Cool, and no one has a reason to share that belief unless you provide evidence

[primal token]

Thats why I wanted them to check it

Maybe it was a mistake

Any other Utahs who have experienced the same thing has lol

[dense hamlet]

i main utah and have played utah for about 600 hours, a lot of the times when i escape from carnos and get bit on the tip of my tail i get body damage, i have experienced this "long hitbox" from carnos almost every encounter. I have also tested it with an admin, i was a carno and he was a utah, i would bite his body and sometimes it would be doing head shot damage. The hitbox is definitely fked. And everytime i have played carno i am able to destroy packs of utahs

[primal token]

@dense hamlet I love you mate finally some realization!

[dense hamlet]

Yeah it's pretty annoying, i'm usually not afraid to show myself when there is a carno around cause i know i can evade it but i don't even do it cause i'm always afraid he will hit me with some kinda shockwave lol

[primal token]

haha

and that's a fact

[dense hamlet]

lol love how you put "fax" then rethought your life choices XD

[primal token]

yup

xD

I have over 800 hours btw

Love this game lol

[dense hamlet]

i have 754 XD same !

[wild badge]

Carno range definitely needs to get checked lmao. Sorry just joined the convo lol

[primal token]

np yup

I hope they do something

[dense hamlet]

90% of my hours is utah gameplay XD

[wild badge]

Will be trying to grow a Utah and will hear the bite not even see the carno close enough to hit me an teleport to it's mouth.

[primal token]

oof

[wild badge]

Thought it was my end then played on my buddies PC and his internet same thing happened.

[dense hamlet]

yeah that's on desync and lag though

it's happening way too much

[primal token]

yeah prob is

[wild badge]

Yeah but I was just eliminating the "it's on my end" variable.

[dense hamlet]

everything is fine...then a fight starts and shit hits the fan for some reason

[primal token]

the performance arent great

[dense hamlet]

yeah

[wild badge]

I love the game just severe performance issues that absolutely need addressed before anything else gets added IMO

[primal token]

ye

[wild badge]

Also AI needs addressed.

[primal token]

yeah

[dense hamlet]

yeah we need to be able to properly play with what we already have before moving forward i think

[primal token]

But they are definitely working hard on that

[wild badge]

Yea they are for sure

But they are also working on things ahead of making the game stable

If it was me I would be making the game stable

[primal token]

same

But they are an excellent team, sure they will find out 🙂

[wild badge]

Yea they are a really good team for how small they are

[primal token]

ye might hire some more ppl down the road!

[novel tulip]

There we go, some evidence

Ok I believe you

However I'm still wondering if server lag might have to do with it, because it was sometimes instead of every time

If it were something like a misconfigured hitbox, I think every single time it would be a weird hit

Instead of seldom or up to chance, which is usually a symptom of desync

[primal token]

Instead of arguing against it without even playing utah, go play some utah

[novel tulip]

I was going with my experience against carnos being able to ez bite utahs, I've never been able to hit them easily as you were claiming

[primal token]

I never said it was easy to play carno

And there is nothing wrong with playing it

[primal token]

yes thats what I said

[novel tulip]

You were claiming they have an absurdly long attack range, but I've never experienced that at all

[primal token]

I love carno, It was my favorite in Legacy

[novel tulip]

What could be happening is the game favoring the person who attacked in terms of sync, making it look hard to land to the player but like it was unfair to the victim, which is in tons of games

[primal token]

Yeah prob because you only play as one

[novel tulip]

Making it an issue with how desync is handled

[primal token]

What you are saying dosen't make any sense

I will send you a video

[novel tulip]

What isnt making sense?

I can see reducing the size of carnos hitbox help alleviate desynced calls but the server and the client disagreeing is always the root of these kinds of issues

The player attacking always initiates the check, so its going to be prioritized based on what the server goes by, instead of the defending client

[primal token]

I have never heard of this "theory" and its prob a thing in other games, but I don't think that's the issue here

[novel tulip]

Its basic server logic

[primal token]

okay

Like I said I will send you a video of it happening

[novel tulip]

Ok

[primal token]

Have a nice day m8

[novel tulip]

I'm not denying its happening, what I'm denying is it only being because of carnos bitebox

[primal token]

I think you are talking about desync

[novel tulip]

Yes thats exactly what I'm talking about

[primal token]

Yes thats also a thing

you are correct

[grave veldt]

Carnos hitbox isn’t rly the problem tho

All attacks of every dino gets increased or decreased cuz of desync

Utah just experiences more issues with it as their smaller and hits from other dinos can be lethal

[sinful cove]

All the people who join shit packs or are shit pack mates begging for more friendly fire reduction to excuse their poor coordination is truly sickening

[grave veldt]

@frosty plank they intentionally made every dinosaur lose all their water from 100 to 0 in 30 minutes for all dinos because they didn’t wanna balance food and water value atm

Their doing a diets update in which all food values and stuff like that is getting reworked so they didn’t wanna do too much balance on the values as they r currently

[frosty plank]

Im glad to see they will balance that

I usually play survival games like ark, and the thirst is more notable in this game, kinda annoying at some point. Thanks for the information @grave veldt 😉

[grave veldt]

Yea Dw yr right and it is short

It’s just that it’s short on purpose as they their doing a balance update on all of that next update

[alpine plover]

The reason you don’t think its true is because you aren’t a skilled utah, if you catch a cocky carno (like I was) 2 utahs can actually overwhelm it with bleed, since carno has bad stamina, the stamina debuff you get with bleed actually matters , and if you run out of stamina you lose your main advantage, being able to leave the fight when you want

at that point the utahs can take their time and kill the carno

also hitboxes are on point I play on good servers and have good internet myself, so i’m probably the minority but most hitboxes are fine, minus deino.

[sinful cove]

dont know about teno and carno being able to stun deino, but deino does need a harder time on land than he currently has

[vagrant mural]

it does, but like the counterplay for tenonto and carno on land vs a deino should be to either just leave the fight because they're insanely fast, or trying to discourage it with running in and out

they shouldn't be rewarded for just rushing in and stunning one of the biggest things in the game as a small game specialist and pseudo mid respectively

[sinful cove]

normally i wouldnt mind teno and carno being able to stun deino with their respective abilities but the players would just use it to start fights they shouldnt be encouraged to yeah

like it wouldnt work just because how players would use it

[vagrant mural]

yeah

[sinful cove]

Hmm, alternatively instead of a stun for deino, those abilities could knock its stam down some, since then it can be used to make ot harder for the deino to grab people and get them to water from land

That could probablt be abused as well but maybe..

[vagrant mural]

that could work

I mean tbf, both of those abilities are/should be susceptible to diminishing returns

so you get rid of a chunk of stam at the cost of the chunk of your own stam

[sinful cove]

So tenos dont just spam slam and carnos dont just spam charge, but they wouldn't be published for using it once or twice, yeah i dont think it'd be that abusable aside from groups lynch mobbing deinos with it but that will always be an issue unless there's also diminishing returns on the target to make such abilities lose potency when inflicted a lot in a short period of time

Actually doesnt sound too abusable then

[vagrant mural]

yeah that makes sense

[jolly matrix]

Carno literally cannot spam charge

[vagrant mural]

that too

[sinful cove]

It would mainly just counter carno groups abusing something I suppose

[vagrant mural]

like if a full group of carnos all charged a deino at once it would probably lose most of if not all its stam, but the carnos are also in a predicament, as they have little stam to escape

[sinful cove]

I kinda wanted diminishing returns on stuns and the like for the ability i want for para anyway, so if carnos chain rammed a deino it wouldnt be to the full affect since the stam drain would lessen with each consecutive blow from the ram

[thick echo]

the problem I could see with an adult deino getting stunned when it gets headshot by Teno or Carno's stun attacks is the fact that Deino's head is not only super low to ground making it easy for headshots to land but Deino's head makes up a good 15% to 25% of its body which makes it even more easy to land stuns especially with Teno's ranged tail slam

[sinful cove]

also not to mention teno and carno are already a good deal faster so they could just run up and grief for fun lol

a carno using its charge defensively would be pretty damn rare and once a teno is turned around it can just run from the deino, so using the abilities to instead reduce deino's stam and make it harder for it to grab people on land is less abusable

[old hull]

i see people are finally getting tired of landcrocs being basically unkillable ey

[sinful cove]

yes these deinos must be stopped, they are out of hand

causing a ruckus

[thick echo]

I'm actually working on a Deino feedback document

[hollow canyon]

Deino shouldn't be getting stunned by animals that are ~a quarter of its size. Deino isn't "good" on land, it's just that there's nothing in the game that can threaten this animal at all. Its stamina and speed on land are already garbage and you pretty much have to want to pick up a fight with one to have it even take place on land. Read this as: release some animals that can actually threaten a croc asap. It's just boring to have only one 8t predator in the game as it can't be killed by anything aside from its own kind. The fact that it's also absurdly easy to grow compared to the terrestrial carnivores doesn't make it any better.

[modest carbon]

Carno certainly shouldn't be able to stun an 8 ton gator with ram

[grave veldt]

deino hopefully with diets gets sum kind of balance changes specifically its alt bite

its alt bite should be slower then its actual bite not faster when biting in one place (not turning around alt biting)

[novel tulip]

Imo just give its alt bite some sort of stam drain so it can't just run around on land with full stam knowing it can spam alt bite at attackers forever

Alt bite should only be a defensive land move as you move between water sources or briefly walk on the shore

If you need to use it any more than that because you're a mile inland, that should be punished

[alpine plover]

@rough perch

thats the point

you are a tiny animal getting dragged by a 8 ton croc

of course you’re helpless

carno and utah are TINY compared to deino

[left scroll]

i kinda get where they're coming from. if it doesn't kill you outright, you should probably have a way of escaping, however difficult that is

but if they're just able to drag you about til you die, with nothing you can do about it, then it might as well just kill you outright

[rough perch]

I still feel these dinosaurs have enough muscle power to fight even a bit as in real life everything fights for survival even if they dont make it. Also this is a game and this alt drag thing one shots adult dinosaurs like that,it feels a bit unbalanced

[alpine plover]

how?

Deino is 7 tons heavier then carno

it would look really silly

[grave veldt]

6.2 tons*

[rough perch]

I think you havent ever watched documentaries then

Also I did not say they would have 100% chance to escape,even 20% is good

[slim dragon]

They're fighting back tho
They're wasting a lot of Deino's stamina

[grave veldt]

idk if u know but im pretty positive the deino loses more stam depedning on the weight of the dino

idk if its still a thing but im pretty sure it does something like that

if it doesnt then it should

like ur max capacity holding limit should be wasting a good chunk of the deinos stam

4 tons basically

[alpine plover]

Hm, I never knew there was a documentary on deino, the extinct alligator

mind linking it? Had no clue that was a thing

Also there already is a struggle mechanic

[alpine plover]

a 1.6 ton teno is not escaping from the 8 ton deino, it’s impossible.

[primal token]

@alpine plover Do you actually think a good Carno will let 2 Utah's pounce it for more than 3 sec? Trees, rock and even water instantly throws you off....

a good carno will use that as an advantage

And pounce bleed isn't that great atm

The game is made for 2 utah's to jump on a carnos back, because the fights are intended to be 2v1s, but atm the only way to get a good carno is to ambush it while its laying down.

[golden coral]

You can actually get more utahs on now I think, I've seen up to three of them at least

[primal token]

I dont think thats true

they throw each other off

[golden coral]

Maybe it was just glitched when we tested it then

But it worked with two of them on the same side when we did it

[primal token]

It would make no sense

Then one needs to sit on the tail

[golden coral]

I agree, but it did seem to work :p

[primal token]

maybe just a bug I guess

lol

[golden coral]

Very possible, pounce is a problem child :p

[primal token]

Yeah and now juvie Utahs has it too

[golden coral]

Would that maybe allow for more utahs then? Depending on size?

[primal token]

but it's a great aspect to the game

good question

I will test that

[golden coral]

Could be something like that, that happened to then glitch with adults as well

Cause that makes some sense, since smaller utahs = more space

[primal token]

ye

[golden coral]

Let me know how the test goes, cause that's an interesting situation, if they managed to pull that off, so the amount of utahs on something depends on the size of the utahs vs the thing they're pouncing

[primal token]

I certainly will!

[alpine plover]

not true

use numbers

[sinful cove]

Oh no not another deino bite buff suggestion

[lean shoal]

imagine wanting the strongest playable buffed.

deino has one easily avoidable bad matchup. said creature takes just as long to grow and has one horrid matchup it cant avoid.

[hollow canyon]

"bad matchup" in Deino terms is simply a match up where it's victory isn't 100% certain and its opponent does have a chance of killing it.

[lean shoal]

^

the only matchup deino cant win with a press of a button.

even then if the stegos not above a specified growth it can still be grabbed.

[sinful cove]

If you, a group of utahs, died to a juvie deino then you kinda deserve it

[vagrant mural]

Especially if you’re all full adults and it was on land

[sinful cove]

Like how dense does somebody have to be to let a super slow animal that needs to hit them multiple times to deal lethal damage actually kill them and then blame game balance

[vagrant mural]

Even then a group of utahs should be able to kill that outright

[sinful cove]

Its like the guys who stood there and tanked juvie stego hits by choice and then came rushing to balance feedback to cry about it

Literally fucking walk away, neither of those things can kill you unless you let them do it

[thin herald]

@mystic valley Hp =/= weight

[alpine plover]

@meager timber

Why buff deino? Its currently the strongest playable in game, buffing it would ruin balance.

@alpine sleet

its your fault for dying, no offense but play smarter.

[alpine plover]

@gentle sail#896

reduce growth? No

Its the fastest dinosaur in the game

it shouldn’t be growing as fast as teno

Otherwise I GUESS i agree

imo carno is underpowered atm

it cant hunt without a ambush and its ambushing method is worse then other playbles

so a nerf to its biteforce in exchange for a massive buff to charge will be cool

also a weight nerf? No

Carno is its realistic size, and its fine like that

no need to over complicate things

honestly this nerf should be saved for later

when we have cerato

since it can be more generalist then carno

In my opinion carnos biteforce should be MAYBE 290 N? Just a guess with no real thought put into it

[gentle sail]

I'm not too sure on what role weight plays in the case of dmg, so if it's just something that's used to calculate charges and deino lunges, its weight is fine. I agree on the nerf being saved for when cerato can take the place of what carno is now. I'd love to have a stat page to see the health and bleed of creatures, but carno's damage definitely feels a bit strong for how it should be played. I also don't generally test things out in game, like playstyles and how much more effective things can be in herds/packs rather than solo, which I'm sure would make carno seem much less OP to me.

[alpine plover]

weight isnt used in anything

its just used to calculate stuff like if you get dragged by deino

they removed the weight system

[gentle sail]

glad to have confirmation on that, thy

[alpine plover]

np

[vale harness]

ok i've asked this before, and i've tried testing it. but can carno still abuse the spam bite glitch while it's stunned? some videos say it does, or even show a carno spam biting while stunned. but the patch notes said it was fixed, and I haven't had a lotta carnos abuse it on me. but its like 50/50 for if it will be able to abuse the glitch or not. ion know if anyone has any insight on it but yea

[gentle sail]

not sure if that's a thing still
what about stunning attacks when they hit the head? do those stun for longer durations, or same as body shots?

[vale harness]

mmm not sure about that, but i do know the kick stuns a carno for 1 second and the tail slam stuns em for about 2 i think

[gentle sail]

would love an animation, hard to tell sometimes if the carno gets stunned or not

[alpine sleet]

sorry, it's very hard when your starving with your last packmate, and your up against a body guarding croc, and they don't vomit. So it keeps eating and eating, until the corpse is gone, we had to attack. I'm no cannibal, which is why I did not eat our packmate, I had no choice, it kept charging towards us. Which is how I died, I died to a ass hole body guarding cannibal legacy rex/giga player.

*rage intensifies

[sinful cove]

Deino doesnt need a nerf just because a super specific situation you caught yourself in, shit happens, sometimes you starve or get unlucky when you choose to get picky with your food, being fed shouldn't be a guarantee for something designed to PvP to survive

Juvie deino isnt even strong

[grand carbon]

Carno seems to actually be stuck in an animation now when stunned so due to this I dont think it can anymore

at least sometimes

[left scroll]

Big agree on charge being kinda pointless atm. Anytime I play carno, if I charge at some dryo AI it's pretty likely I'll miss. I've kinda given up on doing that and just run at them and bite instead. Even though the bites dont one-shot like the charge does iirc, you only need a couple and it's hardly difficult to pull off

having the bite be a little weaker would be good for encouraging people to actually use the charge. because atm, running and biting is just easier and better 99% of the time

I also really wish carno's turn radius was adjusted, and maybe their brake/acceleration speeds. The thing that made carno great in legacy imo was that even if you were slower, it was possible to juke it. It made it pretty balanced against stuff like galli, which could run back and forth until carno gave up. Right now, while carno does take a moment to turn or get back up to speed, it's not severe enough to actually prevent carno from catching prey trying to juke them, at least in my experience

carno is just way too buff and brutish to actually be a small game hunter. in particular considering small game doesn't even feed it that well (hopefully diets addresses this) so atm carnos are encouraged to target bigger prey

[sinful cove]

Carno groups are pretty common, you must just get bad luck

Changing the growth rates wont solve problems either

You'd either just make the other replace the overpopulation or both would get worse

[grave veldt]

ayo i dont wanna say u suck but getting all ur adult raptors killed by a juvi deino is pretty sad

[hallow spire]

@thick turret There are usually big carno packs around center u should check there and a sub adult carno should still be able to be pinned with a pounce ur still vulnerable to things that are bigger than u at that age, and by a Utah especially one that is 100% will definitely kill u if it gets its pounce off

[primal token]

@alpine plover wdym weight has a big impact on dmg

That would be unrealistic, and they had no reason to change that

how

"It was realistic"

they could

yeah ik

that weight doesn't have an impact on dmg

How did you do it then

[slim dragon]

Dinos have a health bar that is separate from their weight and weight doesn't affect damage in evrima, that's a fact

[primal token]

Its a "fact" like did they say it or something...

[slim dragon]

Yes, a lot of times

Also players have calculated health bars many times

Never it was identical to dino's weight

[grave veldt]

bro u dont need the devs to spoon feed u everything im in a test server with QA members

[primal token]

In leagacy it was (your weight/target weight) x biteforce

[slim dragon]

Yes but it was Legacy

[grave veldt]

Locational dmg and dmg in general is completely different then legacy

body dmg is base dmg no matter weight

[primal token]

So they just totally removed that

without even saying it

[grave veldt]

weight affects fall dmg and now deinos grapple

[primal token]

ik

[slim dragon]

They removed nothing, it isn't the same base

[grave veldt]

it'll prolly affect trample as well

[primal token]

thats not what im talking about m8

Then why are you saying that it doesn't affect damage....

if they "removed nothing"

Even tho they did build it up from scratch

[slim dragon]

They rebuilt their game on a different base

[grave veldt]

weight doesnt change the dmg u do

[primal token]

so there might be a chance they did

happy how do you know?

[grave veldt]

no theres no 'chance'

its simple testing that i do all the time with actual QA members

[slim dragon]

They didn't remove rex, for example, they just haven't implemented it yet

[primal token]

Sry read that wrong

[slim dragon]

But they will probably never put bnack weight=health

[grave veldt]

join the DBears server if ur so skeptical lol

[primal token]

I get what you mean by that

[grave veldt]

the only thing affecting dmg currently is the location

[primal token]

thx guys

[slim dragon]

But we might get an armor mechanic in the future tho

[primal token]

prob yeah

[grave veldt]

we will*

[primal token]

I liked the feature tho...

[grave veldt]

otherwise anky would be yk like legacy again lol

[primal token]

yup

[slim dragon]

Well, maybe they will cater to "armor" just being lower damage multipliers
Like anky having 0.25x damage on the body instead of 1x

[grave veldt]

yea they can just do that as well

an armor mechanic seems cooler tho imo

as long as anky is actually good to play

[primal token]

But will the new locational damage actually fix the problem when all "strong" carnivore dinos are gonna be super high anyways

[slim dragon]

I hope we can have true damage reduction on armor
Like anky having -250 damage on its armor
So small dinos cannot just nip it for 20 minutes and kill it

[primal token]

Hitting them in the feet might not do much

[primal token]

good point

[grave veldt]

it would be nice if there was different hit sounds and hurt sounds for anky depending on what u attack

although everything is armored so idk

except for the bottom side

[slim dragon]

I once suggested having different hurt sounds for any playable, depending on where they're hit

But I think that's already the case now that I think about it

Stegos do different sounds depending on wether they're hit on the head or on the body

[grave veldt]

yea i believe thats in already

also stego not taking dmg on plates is a neat feature

[slim dragon]

But maybe we can have different hit sounds

Like hitting armor does a clunk stype of sound, while hitting a weak spot does some satisfying scratchblksh

Cause I'm not sure hits does sounds rn

[grave veldt]

idk if hit sounds r even a thing

theres bite and hurt noises with different noises and attenuations

[grave veldt]

i mean forget the devs said u can literally find out urself

[primal token]

I apparently didn't see this comment lul

But I have no reason to test it now

[grave veldt]

u can always just do simple math and test it although a dev stating it saves time

[primal token]

ye exactly

@grave veldt Do you know how much hp each individual dino has?

Same as weight?

And do you know the multiplier of a "headshot"

[slim dragon]

The body multipliers depends on the dino

Most have 2x, stego has 3x

[primal token]

k

Does carno have 2x?

[slim dragon]

As for the health, Utah has 1000, Deino has 6000, and stego 5000 iirc

[primal token]

cool have you tested that yourself or did the devs say it

[grave veldt]

welp

finally i can put my testing to good use lol

lemme make a list rq

[primal token]

yay

Sorry i was a bit off before, got a little "annoyed" that my own calculations were totally off

I had calculated the dinos with the old weight system lol

[grave veldt]

Stego: 4000
Deino: 6000
ptera: N/A (i think its 150 but not entirely sure)
Utah: 1000
Teno: 2000
Carno: 2000
hypsi: N/A (it seems to be 80-120)
Dryo: N/A (need more testing it seems to be 200-300)

[primal token]

uh

yummy

[grave veldt]

small dinos r very difficult to calculate

gonna need sum more testing on em

[primal token]

must have taken a while

[grave veldt]

oh yea and also u wanted multiplier right

[primal token]

sure thing

[grave veldt]

Head: 1.5X (2.0X for stego)
Neck: 1.25X
Body: 1.0X (Base dmg or whatever biteforce your dino does)
Base of the tail: 0.75X
tip of the tail: 0.25X (not 100% confirmed dmg is extremely low here and doesn't give bleed)

[primal token]

thx again

[grave veldt]

ok after doing a bit more calculations

it seems tip of the tail is 0.08X or lower

[primal token]

The other guy said stego Head was around 3.0X

[grave veldt]

yea there using charts

their not accurate

[primal token]

charts?

ah

[grave veldt]

yes theres sum kind of multiplier chart

it shows different multipliers

its very inaccurate

[primal token]

k

[grave veldt]

also using sum simple math carno 6 shots stego rn in the head

if it was 3

it would be a 4 shot to the head

oh yea and ill list weight as well

Stego: 6000 kg
Deino: 8000 kg
Carno: 1800 kg
Teno: 1600 kg
Utah: 500 kg
Dryo: 120 kg
Ptera: 90 kg
Hypsi: 20 kg

[primal token]

yeah you right

great thx!

[grave veldt]

👍

[soft girder]

Neck is mostly for sauropods but I think that it's should be 2.0 x too since it's their weak point

[grave veldt]

maybe

[soft girder]

But only sauropod will have the 2.0x weak point on the neck

[slim dragon]

Maybe ceratopsians will too

[grave veldt]

ceratopsians should as well honestly yea

the neck is rly difficult to hit so getting a hit there should be rewarding

[soft girder]

Galli too

[primal token]

@grave veldt Sorry to bother but do you any calculations on bleed and maybe pounce damage?

[grave veldt]

Because bleed is super finicky and has many many combinations it’s almost impossible to test it

But I can say for sure that

A whole full Utah pounce does 1/4 hp to a stego

And 1/4 bleed to a stego

Plus the extra bleeding after it dismounts

[primal token]

Great wb carno?

do you have anything about it

[grave veldt]

No idea lmao no idea on bleed for almost all the dinos

Because all dinos bleed changes depending on their hunger

Stam

And also water

So it’s very hard to test

[primal token]

So less water and food makes you bleed out faster correct?

[grave veldt]

Ye

[primal token]

okay thats pretty need

[grave veldt]

Also locomotion makes u bleed faster as well

If ur running ur gonna bleed out like a water balloon

[primal token]

wow

Do you think 2 full pounces is enough to kill a carno

[grave veldt]

It is

[primal token]

from the bleed?

or the damage

[grave veldt]

They changed the dmg recently so I’ll have to do more testing on that

But it will def die to bleed

[primal token]

Do you know pounce damage

[grave veldt]

From 2 pounces

Nah idk pounce dmg atm

[primal token]

damn np

[grave veldt]

Def something to look into

[primal token]

I know alot more than before I met you thats for sure

sure

[grave veldt]

Yea the game evolves so as it evolves we gotta keep testing and testing

[primal token]

What serv you testing on?

[grave veldt]

It’s called MrDBears laboratory

Idk if it’s up rn but in the discord I do tests

[primal token]

okay think I joined the wrong one then

k

[grave veldt]

It might not be up rn if it is tho it should be called MrDBears Laboratory

[primal token]

yup cant find it

[grave veldt]

Alr it’s prolly not up rn

[primal token]

I can find the "best e-girl serv" lol

[grave veldt]

Lmao

I forgot he did that

[primal token]

Thats the one he links from his youtube lmao

Can you just inv to the serv or is it like "down", "down"

[grave veldt]

Yea the server hasn’t been up for about 2 days now for now atleast

[primal token]

thats weird

bye thx for the chat

[grave veldt]

👍

[grand geyser]

@languid frost I think most of the suggestions you made can be fine but the increased recovery rate of the Utah pounce i don't agree with. It is meant to be the dino that can take on the biggest variety of other creatures in group and some solo if good enough.

[languid frost]

Yeah I know that, but for something that weak and with the bad hitboxes, hit registration and desync it's really easy to miss a pounce even when you really aimed right, meaning a certainly death most times, not cause of players fault but luck

[grand geyser]

Yeah but that is not a problem with the Utah then but the core game mechanics

[languid frost]

Other abilities are affected by that like deino's lunge or stego's thago, wel it's really funny to see them fighting, taking damage from 2m 😂 but they can take a lot of damage and they don't get staggered if they miss

[slim dragon]

You shouldn't balance a game around desync or bugs tho

[grand geyser]

this

[languid frost]

I agree, and I wouldn't do it if the impact wasn't so high. As I said, that animation is really slow, even if there wasn't desync, etc. Think about it, it's a creature that pounces on others, fast and agile, should be more fluid even if it misses, being prepared for that and recover fast. I don't even say it should keep running like nothing like it was before, I totally agree pounce spammers must be punished and also push players to improve their skills and aim right.

[slim dragon]

Pounce is an extremely powerful ability, it needs some hard punishment if you miss

[grand geyser]

They could speed up the animation a little but give the utah a movementspeed slow at the beginning of the take off

[languid frost]

But at least being able to slowly accelerate as soon as it starts to recover after crouch, not even run, just walk and slowly increasing speed

That gives a little window for targets to attack but also more skilled players to move fast

[grand geyser]

this could work but i still think that a utah should die if they pounce and miss something bigger than themselves (in most cases)

[languid frost]

Yeah that's the thing, just what you said

Way bigger, I mean if you miss pouncing a stego it doesn't matter if you start to slowly move while recovering, 1 hit and you're dead

[grand geyser]

same with carno and teno

[golden coral]

Would be interesting if they added a "start-up" movement when pouncing, something you as defender can look out for and react to, make it more dangerous to pounce, but in return get a proper dismount so if you land it, you're good to get away more or less safely (at least with kickoff, if not, you might still get a base of the tail hit possibly?). And utahs can get a less punishing miss on pounce, if they lose the automated slot system so they get that same punishment both when they completely miss as well as if they hit the wrong spot (pounce the face, tail or similar).

[languid frost]

But should at least have a little chance to survive anything unable to 1 shot a utah

[grand geyser]

no

[grand geyser]

should still die to carno and teno imo

[golden coral]

Yes actually, it would be better. Would make pounce more interesting overall, reward you for landing it, but punishing you for a miss.

[grand geyser]

That is how it is atm wdym?

[languid frost]

To teno mostly for sure, tail slam, utah stunned, it's death

For carno just give 2 free bites at max

Carno is still way faster, shouldn't be hard to catch the utah even reacting faster and running away

I have to say I don't usually pounce unless I'm really sure I'm gonna latch, so this doesn't affect me too much

[grand geyser]

I still think you should get killed by a carno, atm even if you hit you almost don't do any dmg so only a "bad" utah would even pounce a carno

Also we have to think about the balance between solo and group play too

and with that said carno needs to be a 3 pack animal

and utah 6 at most

[golden coral]

No it's not? Far as I know, there's no "start up" movement you can look for, the dismount have issues with not being far away enough, and there's no extra manual kick-off for extra distance (to avoid a tail base hit for example). And unless it's changed, the utahs can pounce the face of a stego and just get slotted onto the side, which should be fixed, and if such as "mis-aimed" pounce + actual misses are both punished, then the punishment can be lessened slightly, since it's more difficult to land a pounce in the first place.

[languid frost]

But for example deinos bodies are kinda weird (something that should be changed too) there's just a little space to latch and only if you do aim perfectly to that spot, which is hard due to that little space and their fast alt bite

Yeah group balance is something I'm thinking about and writing lol but for it's simple, if it takes 2 dinos to kill another one in a balanced fight (50-50, one mistake can change the whole fight) that should be always the proportion for groups

[grand geyser]

I meant is is a high risk high reward creature. I don't agree with the additional time it takes to pounce because it makes it less risky. The issue with the dismount is that you don't sprint right away "u have to time hitting the button" this should get changed. The pounce to the face i s pretty stupid so agree with that.

[languid frost]

Right now pounces are high risk and almost no reward, at least for those actively attacking even if they successfully pounce, cause most times they die

[grand geyser]

I don't think the right call is to pounce a deino but yea the deino collision coupled with desync is an issue

[grand geyser]

That is a problem again fixed by desync or less stam drain for the utah or more stam drain for the pounced enemy

[languid frost]

Well jaguars hunt gators, a fg utah could kill a deino its same size the same way

It just needs deino's body and the way utahs latch to be improved

[grand geyser]

Well i assumed you were talking about adult deinos

[languid frost]

I suggested this already, changing the way pounces latch, so it does it at the spot you aimed, and the direction you're looking too, in deinos case utahs should be able to pounce longitudinally on their backs aiming from behind or jumping over the head ( not through obvs)

Well you can pounce adult deinos but unless there are 8 skilled utahs and the deino is really dumb there's no point doing that 😂 😂

[sinful cove]

Aim better in your uwutah dogpiles. pounce is already socketed, you dont need the game holding your hand at the expense of the other player more than it does now

Why should the game fix your mistakes if you pounce a packmate

[broken aspen]

Sometimes the solution is get gud. Personally I don't believe its hand holding for some prioritizing :)

[alpine plover]

The amount of times I’ve been pounced by packmates is incredible.

[broken aspen]

^Exactly, at some point the issue isn't solely a skill problem, but a mechanical problem. And it's particularly frustrating when if thinking irl, a utah would unlikely be so clumsy as to hit their own members on accident so easily. Think bout lions, how often does a lioness accidently pounce her pride members when going after a zebra? Very unlikely I imagine.

[slim dragon]

You can't compare an animal's clumsiness to a player. Animals never accidentally attack their packamtes irl, yet human players do. If you pounce on your ally, the laws of physics have to apply.

[alpine plover]

To be fair the players I played with were as dumb as a bag of rocks so. Idk.

[vagrant mural]

No wtf my uncoordinated pack should be rewarded for spamming pounce near each other

[broken aspen]

Eh, ima back out of this convo.

[slim dragon]

I don't understand your "priority" thing about pounce. In what situations can it even apply ? If you try to pounce a target and your friend is in the way, literally touching the target ?

If that happens, tell them to get out of the way next time

[broken aspen]

So for that situation of prioritizing bubulb...

[alpine plover]

playing with random utahs is also quite difficult because most of them are dumb. literally fighting a teno and one of them pounced me and killed me without getting off.

[slim dragon]

Life is made of opportunities
Meat is meat

[alpine plover]

then he died because the teno tail slammed him

[slim dragon]

The choice he took was calculated
But he was bad at math

[broken aspen]

If two utahs are next to each other chasing down a carno, one is slightly ahead and is close to the carno, the other pounces, imo there should be slight priortizing. Doesn't have to be heavy pri, but should be some

That's the scenario I thinking of :)

[slim dragon]

Hmm
I still think pounce should latch onto the utah, prioritizing can't change much here, their hitboxes are too far away

That would be making packmates immune to pounce, which would be terrible for balance

[broken aspen]

I imagine there could be balancing with it, it's already pretty punishing to miss.

Like proximity of hit box's could factor into prioritizing

[slim dragon]

There's an easy fix to that situation tho. Spread out a little more. Here I'm basically saying "git gud" but you should learn and apply things instead of making that kind of situation even easier to handle for players

The game is skill-based after all, that means it must reward skill as well as punishing the lack of it

[broken aspen]

Can't spread out really if your attacking 1 dino. And again it can be tampered down so that skill is still in play.

Tho I can see this is a touchy subject xP Ima hop off

[signal fable]

Just take turn pouncing. There's your balance fix.

[left scroll]

mh i think that's the mistake a lot of people make when they start complaining about friendly fire in nearly any capacity. coordinate, and spread out

take your turns

if you all rush in at once, regardless the number of opponents, its naturally gonna get messier

ngl that fact is why i dont really like grouping with people. i dont trust they'll actually wait their turn :/

[alpine sleet]

@thick turret ██████████████
█▄─▀█▄─▄█─▄▄─█
██─█▄▀─██─██─█
▀▄▄▄▀▀▄▄▀▄▄▄▄▀

[novel tulip]

Pouncing packmates is a skill issue, not a game issue

coding an entire system that makes utahs not able to pounce each other sounds awful and clunky anyway

[sinful cove]

Utahs megapack so often that there should definitely be harsh punishment for uncoordinated groups so they destroy themselves

Shouldnt be so easy to just make megapacks and roll over everything else on the map with your dogpiles

[novel tulip]

Imagine them being able to phase through each other

[slim dragon]

Legacy gameplay

[sinful cove]

Imagine it uwutahs got all the friendly fire disabling, collision reduction, and pounce auto aiming they keep begging for

[alpine plover]

@alpine plover

just get better at hiding

[alpine plover]

My god.... Why didn't I think of that

Also are you going to ignore the whole factor of S N I F F I N G

[alpine plover]

Yeah you’re welcome, no need to thank me

[alpine plover]

if you hid and covered your tracks, you wouldn’t die from that

Ive never died as a juvie to an adult dino

I call bullshit

maybe a tiny exaggeration but you get my point

Also I'm too trusting of people

just get better at survival

[alpine plover]

why are you trusting people?

its a survival game

not a team game

"just get better at survival" - bear Grylls 2021 22:27 Thursday 3rd of June

[alpine plover]

yes.

get better

[alpine plover]

Idk I just like to be able to trust people. Running around thinking every noise is a threat isn't really fun

If I wanted to play like that id be a dryo

[sinful cove]

Only some dinos could have faster juvies with it not looking utterly stupid, that would leave other playables with miserable growths in comparison

[alpine plover]

^^

Based and redpilled

[lament cloak]

actually carno subs are faster than the adults, its kinda dumb if you ask me

[alpine plover]

Nani?

[alpine plover]

Dont play the isle then

[alpine plover]

they’re also MUCH more mobile

[sinful cove]

Like it would make sense for young rexes to be more mobile than the adults, but then other apexes would have shitty lifestyles in comparison and that seems a bit wrong

[alpine plover]

juvie carnos can survive fine and do better in dense forest

[alpine plover]

[sinful cove]

Giga and trike have that issue in legacy where their growth is miserable (not worth it for trike) and rex is a breeze in comparison

[alpine plover]

I spent my hard earned money in it and I can't refund it. I'll get my god damn money's worth

[alpine plover]

try to refund it then

since you dont enjoy the gameplay which will never change

Theres a refund option on steam

you know where to find it?

I know that I might be dumb but I'm not that dumb

oh

I've got too many hours on it I can't refund it

well you gotta get used to hardcore survival gameplay

the game has been like this since 2017

[sinful cove]

Definitely wouldnt call legacy hardcore

You can avoid players so easily there

[alpine plover]

Legacy is pretty easy compared to evirma

In fact legacy is so mutch easier

[sinful cove]

You can hide in some desolate corner and the game spoon feeds you

[alpine plover]

Kek

Also I thought u had to unlock Dinos

[sinful cove]

Thats progression

Its an old game mode

[alpine plover]

Like play a spasific Dino a spasific amount of time to unlock difarent dinos

Ahhh I see

[sinful cove]

so is that suggestion just describing a counter attack or what

like cancelling another animal's attack and giving them a reset time

i think stego should be buffed when larger animals come out too, it shouldnt be on the same map with things like rex or even allo in its current joke of a condition

[vagrant mural]

I believe the suggestion is that to discourage outright factanks stuff like stego can dish out stuns that temporarily hinder rex from biting so it can better defend itself

If I read that right

[sinful cove]

So like a stagger then, just disables attack but they can still move and it's just hindered?

Like when you tank the recoil from a large gun before being able to fire again sort of, i'd imagine, if i'm understanding this right

[vagrant mural]

Yeah

That’s what I got from it anyway

[golden coral]

I imagine a normal stun would kind of do the same job, if the defender can just punish enough to make a continued attack suicidal. Kind of like how tenno handles carno after all (at least if the carno gets stunned properly and can't attack). Smack the carno, and it'll have to retreat and can't risk coming back without a good plan or it will die. Could just apply the same situation to others really?

[cedar shore]

@tulip mural Being bad at pouncing isnt a good argument for removing pounce and making raptors nearly completely unviable.

[sharp isle]

Ai fish and ai spawns need to be increased and more all over the map as currently they are way to low to allow you to enjoy all the amazing work thats gone in to the map as you have to hang near water and food spawn points. I really want to wonder along the beeches find greens and fish and small fresh water pools I dont want to hang out round rivers due to water levels dropping so fast.

[sinful cove]

You posted this in two channels but neither of them are where it belongs

[grave veldt]

lol remove pounce

pounce itself with bucking feels good now honestly

just fix the dismount issue that shouldn't be happening

[tulip mural]

Bad at pouncing? I never miss my pounces, it's just that is utterly useless if the target know how to buck, forcing you to get off with half your stam wasted (as the stam cost for the initial pounce was increased) whilist dealing no significant damage (as no enough time has passed) and the bucking dino having NO downside as bucking it's practically stam cost free. So don't at me with your petty excuse for a diss.

[wraith galleon]

@tulip mural hi

[cedar shore]

Even if you get bucked off quickly you still get a lot off bleed in regardeless. Pair that up with other utahs and you can pounce and bleed out allmost any dino.

You do know that pounce does crazy amounts of bleed right?

[wraith galleon]

(also being able to land a pounce doesn't necessarily mean you're good at it since stam management is a big part of combat)

[vagrant mural]

Bleed and damage/weakening over time is never a factor

[wraith galleon]

obviously

[tulip mural]

Ok, let me make my point clear: The ammount of stam the initial pounce requires vs the ammount of stam bucking requires (and the stam cost the pouncing Utah recieves) is ludicrous. You are always better of just swooping in, biting and swoop away, as it's way more effective than pouncing for 1 second (which DOESN'T inflict that much bleed as, like I mentioned, doesn't have enough time to stack) and leaving stamless.

[limber pewter]

I wish Utah get jumped back further when pouncing to prevent you getting whooped in the face and getting insta killed

[tulip mural]

That is a whole other issue, that ALSO makes pouncing awful (even tho on paper it's the most fun ability and the sole reason why Utahs are my fav dino in EVRIMA atm)

[golden coral]

The problem here is not the pounce, but that bite is too good for the utah in that case, damage and bleed wise. Bites really should only be good vs things your own size or smaller. Pounce is also a pack thing, you're supposed to do it over and over, taking turns and all. Okay, the first 3-4 pounces aren't going to do much, that's fine. You pounce, harass, rest up, and pounce again. By the time all 8 of you have pounced, whatever you're up against will be feeling the effects I'm pretty sure.

[granite gate]

yeah pounce should not be an insta-kill and people keep thinking that it should be...... no. 2 minute battles suck ass, for both the hunter and the hunted

i wouldnt want to lose something i grew for 2+ hours in 2 min because "muh pounce"

[tulip mural]

Yeah but you can do that much damage having the pack just swooping and biting in 1/5 of the time, so...

[tulip mural]

Never said should be insta-kill

[granite gate]

i was exaggerating but seriously, pounce shouldnt be doing tons of damage all at once. i believe you've said there's no point to pouncing since it doesnt do enough damage?

[tulip mural]

Exactly, you're better off just biting, it's way more efficient

(and also, there's no point since bucking is practically stam free)

[granite gate]

as erik pointed out, that means that bite is too good, then

utahs are meant to be endurance pack hunters

[golden coral]

I know, I just mean that the bite is too good, pounce is not too bad. That's where that issue comes from with biting being better. It also depends on what you're up against, vs a carno/tenno it's slightly more dangerous to bite than vs a stego after all. But if you fixed the dismount issue, then pounce would be valid vs all three of them, and at that point you could have a look at the bite, or maybe remove stego extra head multiplier or something, to make biting big prey to death just not viable at all.

[fathom obsidian]

agreed that they should stay endurance hunters bc its makes everything so much more fun for everyone, but if you think the bite is too good i'm sorry i disagree, utahs are prioritizing bite bc pouncing is too dangerous for the reward (against a stego) right now, if they fix the dismount animation then i think it will be a different story

but yeah i really enjoy those endurance fight as utah and as stego

[vagrant mural]

I’m sorry but if you lose 2 full adult carnos to pteras, 1. You’re bad 2. They outplayed you hard

[wraith galleon]

how does that even happen

[sinful cove]

same way a juvie deino killing utahs happens, pure incompetence and 0 brain usage

if i was the adult carno dying to a juvie stego or a couple pteras or the utah that got it and its packmate killed by a juvie deino i'd be too embarrassed to even make feedback on it, it's just so baffling how they can let it happen and then whinge about it

[wraith galleon]

its like

you just got got by the second least intimidating combatant in the game next to hypsi

[vagrant mural]

All they had to do

Was go in a forest or cave

Or even just next to a tree

[wraith galleon]

a good ptera player can definitely bully a carno group

but if it gets to a point where the carnos are on low health they would be able to juke into a forest

[sinful cove]

4 carnos at that, being almost wiped by a couple pteras

There's just no excuse

[novel tulip]

I cant tell if that's real

[vagrant mural]

Same tbh

[sinful cove]

Its been a known issue where ptera can hit a few meters past its beak with peck but you can literally just move to an area with obstacles

[granite gate]

i agree that pouncing dismount (with stam, not falling off) should be far better than it is and shouldnt punish smart utahs. i say “bite is too strong then” because pounce should be preferred to just biting. i do agree that pouncing could be made more dynamic tho, to reward skill and stam management

[vagrant mural]

Honestly I’m just waiting for them to say sike rn

[sinful cove]

Never underestimate the incompetence of isle players

[lean shoal]

as deino or stego i understand getting pecked by ptera. carno can straight bite them if they fuck up.

[sinful cove]

Even stego often gets lucky with lag and can snipe the ptera, but carno doesnt even need lag to defend itself

[vagrant mural]

Honestly props to the pteras

[granite gate]

even just while floating around over carnos (like a solid 10-20 feet over them) them just biting the air eventually lagged me into their mouths lmao

[dim crown]

Pteras Rule.

#MasterRace #TopGun #DeathComesFromTheSkies

Carno might the easiest target for birbs, besides the hypsi.

[gaunt jackal]

@last juniper whats your ping

[alpine plover]

@versed rune

To be fair, some people do enjoy being tiny, like me. The problem is that there aren’t mechanics in place to make small dinos fun at the moment.

Just upsizing them is a lazy solution

troodon can easily be made fun

oviraptor can be made fun

velo can be made fun

just give them unique mechanics and funs ways to traverse land

[dim crown]

Dryo&Hypsi are fun asf

[alpine plover]

of course a velo with literally nothing unique about it is unfun you have to try

[alpine plover]

hypsi is underpowered atm and is a borderline waste of a playable

[dim crown]

Wrong

[alpine plover]

well I cant argue against that

[dim crown]

Hypsi is perfect when combined with any other herbivore.

[alpine plover]

that’s horrible design

if you have to rely on other playables to be fun, then that isnt good design, especially for herbivores

[dim crown]

Thats not what i said.

[alpine plover]

it is

you said hypsi is fun when you play with other herbivore species

which ironically makes it bad

[dim crown]

No

[alpine plover]

ok

[dim crown]

I said its perfect

[alpine plover]

…..and?

[dim crown]

Takes the herb game to another lvl

Its unique

[alpine plover]

how???

[alpine plover]

its just worse dyro

[sinful cove]

Rumo will go on for hours speaking against hypsi getting any improvement, just a fair warning

He's done it before

[dim crown]

And having no growth at this phase of the game, makes me laugh everyday

Its just perfect

[wraith galleon]

symbiotic relationships are really fun tho

[dim crown]

Not exactly that, im just sayin that atm, on this phase, its hilarious.

[alpine plover]

Never said it wasn’t, but when its the ONLY THING a dinosaur can do and is the only thing fun about it, its poorly designed

[sinful cove]

Symbiotic relationships are fun especially for a less popular faction but a dino should be good on its own as well

[alpine plover]

^

[wraith galleon]

hypsi is also just the most incomplete dino ingame so, idk

[sinful cove]

Like hypsi is just not as good as it could be

[wraith galleon]

it is gonna be getting some form of tree climbing at some point

and then it might have some unique nesting opportunities

[alpine plover]

thats what most small animals need

fun unique movement options

[wraith galleon]

yes

movement is pogas

[dim crown]

Im not talking about whats coming on or not, in terms of changes on it, just talking about how it feels to play.

[alpine plover]

Ive been advocating for velo gliding for a while

[wraith galleon]

i would adore that

[sinful cove]

Hypsi feels boring to play alone, at least in my opinion

[alpine plover]

and oviraptor should be very light on its feet, super mobile and should feel like you’re in complete control of your character

like scout from tf2

[sinful cove]

Even when im spitting in peoples' faces and watching them enrage its just boring to do it alone because theres not much more to it

[alpine plover]

it needs nesting and a better form of climbing

and a buff to its jump

[sinful cove]

Yeah it needs more thas all there is to it really

Its jump is trash, i hope they make it more worth using

[dim crown]

I do feel Hypsi could have some changes, but thats another story, when talking about stuff like that, we need to relate all those changes, with the current roster and with whats still to come.

[sinful cove]

Smalls can be interesting even without strapping just extra mobility to them, like troodon sounds interesting. Hypsi sounds kinda fun in concept but his execution is just poor, hopefully they aren’t so careless on small herbis/omnis in the future

[dim crown]

I have 2 much fun with it.

Its hilarious to play, its all im saying

[sinful cove]

If he can actually climb in the future instead of using his shite jump to waste stam sliding off of a bad tree hitbox then its a start

[dim crown]

The jump is....

[sinful cove]

I mean playing a small troll dino can be fun in general, hypsi's just barely special

[dim crown]

I dont troll with it

I can explain

Its special&unique yes

It feels good and its so fun to play, its hilarious, when playing in a herd with ur friends, while your being attacked by a pack of Carnos for ex, after some1 dies, you can jump right back in there, as a Hypsi, to go help, nice spawns help also.
Or just when you dont have time to grow anything else, it goes well in every herd, has what it takes to survive, and its weapon is a game changer.

[sinful cove]

Idk how thats hilarious, doesnt really seem like thats the right word. I can see how hypsi is fun in herds but it is boring and pretty much useless as an individual which is where the problem is

[dim crown]

Its hilarious believe me.

[vagrant mural]

Unfinished playable lmao

[dim crown]

Most of them are.

Deino misses some other water attack?

Stego misses some other tail attack?

[sinful cove]

It misses a variation on its lunge im pretty sure

The verticle lunge

And idk what the deal is with stego

Its shite for sure

[dim crown]

Dryo still needs 1 other skill/mechanic?

Vertical lunge would be nice

[sinful cove]

But the jump and spit issue isnt as much about it missing mechanics, it's that the two mechanics it has are poorly done

[dim crown]

Spit is perfect wdym?

I love it!!

[sinful cove]

The spit is basically useless as a defensive and the jump wastes a ton of stam for a subpar output

The spit is unreliable to use on predators who are already coming for you

[dim crown]

I find very good use for both those features

[sinful cove]

The spit is only useful to troll or be a turret when predators are attacking someone else and ignoring you

[dim crown]

No troll plz

[sinful cove]

Unless the predator is completely and totally incompetent, like the carnos im feedback who got killed by pteras, then it is useless for defense

[dim crown]

Carnos are ez for Pteras those are hilarious also

I got vids of it

Lmao

It risky but, i love it

Risk for the biscuit

[sinful cove]

Yeah i know it happens and it's a hoot to see an overplayed dino get destroyed by some small because they suck ass at the game

Still makes the carno incompetet

[dim crown]

Just to finish on Hypsi, the spit is alr enough for its purpose, as a hypsi i dont feel were supposed to just stand still trying to snipe a dino that is coming for you, in that situation, Hypsi rolls in a different way, even if Hypsi hits, it might still be fucked.

Imcompetent carnos maybe, but they pterodatly didnt fought many Pteras.

[sinful cove]

Which makes it pretty useless as a aelf defense. I know you dont like the trolling comment but like, that's basically the only effective usage of the spit, trolling

[dim crown]

No

[sinful cove]

Sneaking up on some unsuspecting dino and splattering their face for fun

[dim crown]

It has other purpose

[sinful cove]

Is the most effective use of the spit because it is bad self defense

[dim crown]

Its not defense, its an attack

[sinful cove]

Yeah it can be used to splatter things that are attacking a friend and arent paying attention to you

[dim crown]

Defense for hypsi is size speed stam

[sinful cove]

Animals who spit blood, acid or venom use it for defense

[dim crown]

Terrain

Not if to blind opponent

[sinful cove]

Blind the opponent, and then what?

[dim crown]

I blind some1 so i can surprise attack

[sinful cove]

Hypsi isnt a combatant dino

[dim crown]

It is

[sinful cove]

It can irritate people and kill some incompetent smalls

Thats it

If a large dino dies to hypsi then that person should go play my little pony adventure instead

They are no standard to set for hypsi's combat ability

[dim crown]

I been there

[sinful cove]

I hope stego gets better and doesnt just get bandaided with shorter growth and stay a mediocre playable

[slate stratus]

that said tho, if you VC with a hypsi player you can pull off some real galaxy brain strats using the spit

Like, it's absurdly strong as a tagalong because you get a few seconds to run in and rack up a massive amount of free damage

without much risk to you

[hardy dirge]

@grim pulsar I mean what's the point of sniffing while moving? The bush isn't going anywhere.

[lament cloak]

[sinful cove]

Convenience

It's simply boring and repetitive to stop every few minutes to bring up scent, plus the animation and sound accompanying it can give you away

[solar shadow]

Staying in one spot in this game can be a deathwish at times.

[hardy dirge]

I mean I find it odd herbis cannot sniff while moving, but it's not that big an issue. Once you lock onto a bush through scent all you really gotta do is go in the direction the particles are coming from. I rarely have to sniff twice. But yeah it can be loud at times, but it could be just as loud while moving.

[sinful cove]

it's just an inconvenience that can really build up after a while and combines with other factors that makes herbivore less appealing to play

there's no reason not to just let them sniff on the move

[solar shadow]

Yeah I've always found herbis less fun to play.

Not specifically for that reason, but it's one of them.

[sinful cove]

less niches, no sniff walk, many rules servers dont let you attack carnis unless they hit you first (those servers are shit anyway), poor balancing, nothing to work towards unlike carnis who can strive to unlock strains

with diets coming it will be harder for herbis to socialize since they will be segregated by their specific food needs

[granite gate]

imo, based on legacy, i think the only thing that will increase herbi playership is nesting

[sinful cove]

many of the nesting herbi groups in legacy were mixed herds which will be much harder to have with diets

[granite gate]

yeh... hopefully many who naturally overlapped will still overlap in-game

[sinful cove]

socializing was one of the main appeals of herbi gameplay

[granite gate]

i.e, idk, stegos and dryos or smth

[sinful cove]

now it seems it will be dumped out

[granite gate]

or stegos n pachys

people are stupid as hell when they complain about "herbi mixpacking"

like no.......... it's a natural thing especially when most of the server is carni

[sinful cove]

guess we'll see, it's been said they wanted more competition which suggests less appeal to social gameplay for herbis. this on top of being the less played faction leaves herbis with lonesome gameplay until they run across one of many large carni packs and can't defend themselves due to sheer numbers

[granite gate]

plus honestly, even back in legacy, i never once saw a big murder pack of herbis

[sinful cove]

people whine and compare herbi mixpacking to carni mixpacking and it's honestly stupid

[granite gate]

the most i ever saw were maias and gallis doing raids on docktahs, but even then

m o r e c o m p e t i t i o n f or h e r b i s?

[sinful cove]

carnis are designed to track and kill, herbivores are defensive, it is not the same

competition for food sources

for herbis who share diets

[granite gate]

i know, im implying its stupid

lol

[sinful cove]

yeah taking away the main perk of herbi gameplay

[granite gate]

^

[sinful cove]

sure is gonna be fun not being able to find anyone to group with and then getting shitstomped by a pack of 20 utahs