balance-feedback-discussion

[golden coral]

And that's how I think deino should handle things it can't grab. It waits for them to swim, and drags them, providing a threat for actual crossings and so on.

[stone flax]

i can imagne shantu should be able to break free with some strugle tho

[golden coral]

So you'll grab and drown smaller stuff, and "hang on" to big stuff swimming.

More like a shant would have lots of stam, so it'd keep swimming

But if the shant gets slowed down sufficiently far from shore

Even it won't make it back in time

Especially if we can add locational

Grab on to neck

Stamina go poof

And down the thing goes :p

[stone flax]

aight if the deino would get changed to what i suggested increased dmg size and weight but reduced speed and stamina on land. how would you guys want stego to be changed to balance it out then?

i think stegos have it too easy rn tbh they wreck everything. even killed my two HERB herds these past days just beacuse they could.

[wide tulip]

they're slow

just mov eaway

lol

[stone flax]

...

[wide tulip]

just fuckin MOVE

Stegos are the apex, get over it

[stone flax]

deino is also slow on land and i suggested em getting slower on land but people still say op

[golden coral]

As it stands currently, just ramped up I'm guessing. The biggest issue with deino vs stego is the rivers and all the hitbox issues from what I know.

[wide tulip]

you cant beat a stego as a deino get over ur self

[stone flax]

problem was my whole herd was chilling on a rock and 3 stegos came running our from the forest and started hitting us @wide tulip

[golden coral]

Fix the rivers so deinos can actually retreat properly, maybe add extra stamina drain for terrestial attacks when you're in deep water, and fix everyones hitbox issues. Then we'll see how it goes.

[golden coral]

Honestly.. that sounds more like an issue of not paying attention. That would have gone same if it had been something else powerful?

[wide tulip]

No CLEARLY stegos are overpowered. Are you saying Aroyef misplayed?

[stone flax]

dude we were a herbivore herd all tenontos i was looking the other way and somehow the sound was not played from thier footsteps and i dident expect stegos who are also herbs to just rush in and start killing all tenontos for no reason @golden coral

@wide tulip if your not here to talk about balance feedback please go away

[wide tulip]

Deino should be invincible with an instant kill all attack

[stone flax]

@pallid palm yeh its annoying when the stegos choose a shallow part of the river and compleatly block it off

chase please go away

[wide tulip]

I'm confused, I thought we were making terrible suggestions

[stone flax]

oh right blockig exists

there we go

back to sensible people

[wide tulip]

If you see a 100% stego, run away it's already ballanced

[stone flax]

i like shallow areas of rivers as variation but it gets a problem when stegos blocks of the whole river someone posted a pic off it

the deino has nowhere to go

[wide tulip]

you guys are over here theory crafting something that already has an answer

and it's hilarious

[stone flax]

hopefully they just change the rivers make a deep spot in the shallow areas so you can pass through such roadblocks or something

[stiff oak]

Chase, the thing is, if you want to get to the swamp, you NEED to go through that shallow river.

[wide tulip]

AND?

If I want a drink of water, I NEED to take a gamble that a giant gator is going to bite my head off

[stiff oak]

And if the stegos are blocking it, HOW are you supposed to go there?

[wide tulip]

You dont

[stone flax]

yeh problem is when that enviromental advantage is taken away aka by the shallow spot at central where stegos block off and the loong shallow river where stegos and carnos also camp

[wide tulip]

just like if a giant croc is hiding in a river, I dont drink from there

[stone flax]

killing anyone who tries to pass

[wide tulip]

Go to a different swamp, log off

[stiff oak]

Oh so you stop going to a certain part of the map because some stegos are blocking it

[stiff oak]

There is no different swamp

[wide tulip]

that's how the game works yes

[stone flax]

is that guy still writing? but yeh its only 1 swamp

[wide tulip]

this isnt crocodile sanctuary

[stiff oak]

And this isn't stego sanctuary.

[stone flax]

dunno why some maps has it marked up as 2 but its 1 big one

[wide tulip]

it isnt, i kill stegos a ton

[stiff oak]

Exactly, especially when they're blocking a part of the map that has FOOD

[golden coral]

You're tennos, you're faster. While I get how frustrating that is, I don't know, it does sound like you should have kept your eyes a bit more open. And really, in this current game, you should expect anyone to try and kill you, for no reason other than because they can, carni or herbi. Let's be honest, people are asshats in this game more often than not, you can't even trust your own kin :p (yes, I've been killed as stego by other stegos for no reason except fun I guess.)

[stiff oak]

I mean avoiding cannibals is hard, but I do agree that deino life isn't super hard

Yeah

Yeah deinos have almost no chance at killing a stego rn

[golden coral]

It is. Better rivers + stamina cost in deep water. Also crossings should be short and meant for terrestials crossing, not to trap deinos in. They should be narrow enough a deino could just rush through the gauntlet if there's someone blocking, as well as forcing people trying to cross to "line up", so you can possibly nab someone from the side and just bring them away and down.

[stiff oak]

yeah, i've seen them do it quite often

[stone flax]

@golden coral oh yeh i know my fault for not keeping an eye out but i mean we couldent do anything about it. trying to fight back would get us killed stegos just do whatever they want

[alpine plover]

Friendly reminder that I'm 99% sure Deino is balanced to fit he current roster, so putting in buff suggestions is pointless

[stiff oak]

If pachy gets to fracture stego oh boy it's gonna be fun

[stone flax]

yeh not for stego but the rest yeh

yeh break them bones

[stiff oak]

bro idk why but now that pachy's being worked on I got suddenly hyped about it

the anxiety will never end

[golden coral]

Well yes, but if you'd seen them, you could have easily run away :p

Did they manage to surround you, or were you in a position with few/no ways out?

[dim radish]

I'm honestly starting to get tired of this discussion and I have to agree with Chase.
Just move. If you dive deep enough, you're hidden.

And yes, there are shallow parts, but you have toa avoid them. If there are Stegos, you're not gonna pass. It's the same with dinosaurs trying to get a drink. If there is a deino, they are likely gonna die. Fishing isn't 100% safe for Pteras either. High places sometimes aren't either, due to raptors climbing rocks.
So it makes absolute sense that certain parts in water are not safe for deinos either.

I agree that there are parts, which really need deeper water, like the river that connects east and west. Or at least pockets.
But no where should be an absolute safe space, for any creature. And Cannibals don't count as that, because they are everywhere anyways.

[stiff oak]

The discussion ended a while ago, but i'll put this here anyway.
The thing is, with the deino, that's necessary for the deino's survival and it's normal that the drinking dino dies, but with the guarding stegos, it's not. They do that because they can and have no punishment for it. I do agree that there shouldn't be an absolute safe space, but that space already exists and it's the shallow river, and that's safe for stegos, tenos, carnos, etc.
Now, a part that isn't safe for deino would be hard to make, because in the end it either comes out stupid (like now) or it's still safe, if the shallow river got a bit deeper, it would be safe, so I think the only counter option for that is just to have another far away river that conects to the same place as the shallow one, of course while making the shallow one a bit deeper so it isn't a safe place for anyone, maybe to the point where sub deinos could dive a bit, but not adult ones, but there's always gonna be a safe place for certain dinos, currently that place is rocks for the utahs and rocky cliffs for pteras. (And the shallow river for literally anything except deinos and maybe hypsis and juvis.)

[nova olive]

ok so normally ive been disagreeing about buffing the deino, but i think Jörmungandr's suggestion was actually pretty balanced. Rn deinos are kinda a joke, its boring to play most of the time, and its way too easy to grow to full adult as them. They also get bullied by cocky stegs and thats ridiculous, not because steg isnt an apex (it is and should be, maybe even more so than it already is), but deino should be an apex too and rn its not, its more like a caiman than a massive prehistoric croc. It should be buffed in some ways but the debuff's Jörmungandr gave would be really good for balance - with 1 addition: you start out very small, like elite fish size or maybe smaller, but SO fast in water and even on land. You're fragile as shit though, so you only use that to escape being eaten, not to hunt. Then as you grow, your stats slowly improve at the same rate you slow down both on land and in water, until youre mediocre speed in water and VERY slow on land. I think the other details like the fragility of even a full grown & buffed deino on land and it not being apex status until adulthood are good additions as well. Sub adult shouldn't be stronger than a sub rex, albert, or allo imo and i think these changes would actually improve balance. A bit long winded but I'm really interested to hear yalls thoughts!

[golden coral]

@unkempt vault I like it. Seems like a pretty good way of doing it. May not even need to have the damage thing going on, just make it so that if stego runs out of stam, into the water it goes. Makes them slightly less willing to just swing their tails around as well perhaps.

[slim dragon]

As I said, Jormundgand's suggestion rather sounds like a nerf to deino

[unkempt vault]

Thank you, I like the idea of once the stamina is gone it could possibly be dragged in as well that way the kill can’t be guarded by other angry Stegos. I definitely don’t envy the Devs’ jobs but it was fun trying to build on a mechanic

[golden coral]

I'd say you gave it a good try. It's more interesting than just buff/nerf at the very least! I think it could work, because it would add some proper danger, and because the idea of being able to restrict attacks is something I've considered for allo vs stego as well, so I already had similar thoughts!

[nova olive]

How is it a nerf? The adults are apexes, but they're restrained to the water. Theres also lower risk of cannibalism, which allows players to focus on smart gameplay and cooperation (which normal crocs/gators engage in, look up wildebeest river crossing events if youre curious) rather than hoping they can survive being in the same river as other deinos. The adults also won't worry about being punted by stegs anymore, and stegs will have a reason to not be so comfortable around the water and treat deep rivers & swamps as a genuine risk, even though as long as they play smart & are careful about their stam they aren't in that much danger. Rivers would then have a lot of smaller deinos, creating risk for small animals but also food opportunities for other animals around rivers. It would be both a deterrent and an attractor at the same time for all kinds of animals, making deino's addition more meaningful for the game instead of just "oh, rivers are infested with a bunch of crocs now. I guess thats a thing" like it is now. Once again, let me know yalls thoughts

[wheat field]

He is making it more powerful through the nerf of other things about deino

[nova olive]

yes, which introduces balance.

[wheat field]

Im just saying that is how it is viewed as a nerf

Not saying I disagree

However deino speed should not be decreased

On land*

If you are reducing the stam by a shit ton making him slow af ain’t balance on land

[golden coral]

If deino gets that powerful, then it could either grab fully grown stegos as well, or just twoshot their heads. Though with 8+ hours of growth, I guess that would be more or less fair.

[nova olive]

I gotta disagree, theyre way too fast as is, at least for 8 ton adults. While crocs today may be that fast on land for VERY short distances, crocs today are only a few hundred pounds at the largest, not 8 TONS

[wheat field]

You gotta remember Deino is all muscle it may be heavy but he is still gonna be relatively fast in short speed bursts

[nova olive]

I honestly don't think they should be able to grab stegs or even allos, but they shouldnt be stunned for lunging at them either, it should just inflict heavy damage to the animal it lunges at and a bit of damage to it as well, just not nearly as much.

[wheat field]

Deino should be able to grab allo.

If you make deino unable to grab basic midtiers you have made him completely unviable

[golden coral]

Just working with the current "half your weight" as limit. At 13T it would probably be able to grab everything but rex/trike and bigger. Not sure where acro and somewhat large things come in.

Oh yeh, allo does not go over 4T I don't think at least?

It comes in at 2.8 in legacy, so it can grow a bit anyway

[nova olive]

at some point muscle comes with diminishing returns. An animal that big would be completely reliant upon living in filthy enough water it wouldn't be seen and could only move with any speed in water, not in air. Water is used for physical therapy because it essentially decreases the load on an animal's body, so an 8 ton animal would struggle to move on land with any semblance of speed.

[wheat field]

Deino is gonna be a pseudo apex just like how stego is if deino cannot grab anything below that class they are going to starve

[golden coral]

As it stands, if we go by legacy weights (I know, legacy..), our current deino would grab everything in survival except the three apexes.

Now para will get a buff from what I know, so it might be impossible to grab, and not sure on what will happen to sucho.

Yes. Grab, hang on to, drain their stam, if they are too far from shore.. well, out of stamina and down you go!

[brittle dirge]

okay but, nerfing stam on land is one thing but speed doesn't have to go too. you can nerf one and leave the other as is otherwise its too much of a nerf imo

[golden coral]

@pallid palm Makes sense, and would make deino a threat to anything swimming, as it really should be, except semiaquatics that can actually fight it, and probably have better stamina + oxygen at that.

[earnest robin]

Deino is quite the hot topic for debate! Seems 50/50 on keeping deino as is vs buffing it in some way relative to damage. I’m really curious to see what the development team will come up with in terms of what the community has mentioned so far 😮

[wheat field]

Thing is as deino biteforce goes up its lunge stamina consumption should go down, because crocs and alligators grab and pull by using there bite force to clamp down and crush the bone and they are not gonna let go for quite a bit

[nova olive]

im gonna be honest, ive got no idea how weights fair against one another in legacy or evrima just cause ive never cared to figure them out, but the basic idea is that they should be stronger when adult, but harder to reach adult. they should also be less likely to cannibalize and give animals like stego a reason to not be as cavalier around deep water as they currently are. right now, theyre mid-teir, and as an absolutely massive croc should be apexes, just constrained to water. Jörmungandr's suggestion sounded like a good way to achieve all of that, but i have no idea what the numbers on weight or bite force should be because i dont know how they compare to current & future evrima animals

[golden coral]

Well there should be some dangerous crossings at least, but yes, it would be fine. Why would any terrestial look at a deep lake or river and go "yes, I want to go in that".. :p

[wheat field]

Only problem is there is one way to get to swamp and it is a death trap for deinos

Precisely

[golden coral]

I meant for the terrestials. Not the stupid shallow part deinos get stuck in.

[wheat field]

Sorry i saw shallow and immediately thought deino river trap ah yes

[nova olive]

ok gotcha, i kinda got the sense that was an issue but im not a numbers person so i genuinely do not know

[wheat field]

Think of it like this Deinos jaw muscle is STRONG AS FUCK, once it clamps down it will not let go even after an instantaneous death due to nerves and such, it can break bone but that isn’t how it is meant to kill, it grabs doesn’t let go and drowns you it could be 100,000N but a rex can still win cause deino isn’t built for such prey

[nova olive]

yES Aroyef thank youuuuuu

[golden coral]

No worries. I think there should be shallow "crossings" for the terrestials, thin enough that you'd have to "line up" and with deep water on both sides so you can hide there and nab someone crossing if they're not heavy enough/have a stego blocking you. As well as the crossings being thin enough that if someone is there that could block you, you can just rush through, take the hits, and recover on the other side in the water/on the riversides further away.

[earnest robin]

Yeah haha. I’m not a rex main and I’m TERRIBLE at playing deino. But I would like to see it get some nifty mechanics and really help those deino players feel more “in there element” whilst in water and help them kill other larger critters if the circumstances are right (ie my balance suggestion). That way hopefully it’s balanced all round as new dinosaurs come into the fold.

[nova olive]

how would you want that to work mechanic-wise? cause conceptually yeah, if youre small enough to fit in it's jaws and it catches you by your torso or head you should be dead, but how do you make that happen game-play wise without pissing people off or making it amazingly OP?

[wheat field]

We should keep the shallow river as a quick passage for deinos to the swamp at the cost of danger and a river connecting to swamp that is safer at the cost of the time it takes to get there so everyone has their safe route

[earnest robin]

Yes I agree with this. Going to shallow areas will likely also be a risk if other larger land predators know that other dinosaurs use that to get back and fourth or use it for water.

[wheat field]

I will come to this idea i got something to do then i will try to answer it

[alpine plover]

Fun fact, I actually watched a croc death roll a zebras head once. Those rolls are no joke

We may be thinking of the same video

[nova olive]

gotcha np, im excited to hear yalls ideas so i'll try and hang out in this chat more today 👌

[alpine plover]

Yep

Thats the one

[earnest robin]

Yeah I mean that does go to show that perhaps even sub adult deinos, if the dinosaur in the water is already tired and low stamina, can be a formidable predator while in its element.

[alpine plover]

Pretty sick, I dearly hope they give that to deino in the future. I think it was planned? Although not really sure

Cool stuff either way

Crocs are some of my favorite animals

[nova olive]

^ thats horrific but also kinda goes to my point earlier about how important it is for deinos to be incentivized to hunt cooperatively rather than just cannibalize one another

[earnest robin]

I also saw a video of a juvenile hippo literally playing with a basking crocodile. He was bullying it for fun and chasing it around. So I definitely think while herbivores realistically shouldn’t go out of their way to bother deinos unless provoked, shouldn’t necessarily want to pick fights with a big big herbivore.

I hope as QA progresses the whole stego vs deinos thing will subside (player base aside and so forth).

[golden coral]

I don't know Chaotic, we don't really want apexes to work too well together, do we? :p

[earnest robin]

Haha oh yes! I did also see another image of a croc eating a baby hippo so, such is the circle of life!

[nova olive]

they do it already? grouping is proof of that, you regularly see rex, trike, and shant packs in legacy even on strict realism servers, so its kinda inevitable anyway.

[earnest robin]

Yeah exactly, in that circumstance I wouldn’t expect anything less for sure.

I also saw a video of a Jaguar snatch a young juvenile (croc or gator?) out of the water and drag it away. So in terms of our future Evirma mid tiers maybe juvi deinos will also be on the menu if caught off guard or in a pinch.

Ah yes that one

[nova olive]

probably a grown caiman. theyre one of jaguar's main food sources interestingly enough

[golden coral]

I know, and I'm not sure I personally like that. I think big things should come in pairs, maybe trios at most. But that can probably be handled with food and all that. And I think deinos would be fine if it wasn't for hype right now, so I'd say let that cool down first, then we'll see if everyone is still a cannibal.

[wide tulip]

Listen, we need to come together and find a way to expose cannibals for the assholes they are

No more Deino mental gymnastics

[earnest robin]

Yeah very neat thing to see from a Jaguar. I’d like to experience something related to that in Evirma one day.

[nova olive]

the issue is that rn cannibalizing is currently the easiest way to survive as a deino, so there will need to be some sort of mechanic implemented to discourage that and encourage interactions between deinos and other animals, and I'm not sure that the diet system will be good enough encouragement for that.

[nova olive]

herrera maybe? they would only do it to juvies but its possible if TI gets an environmental artist who makes the right overhanging trees for it rather than the tall beeches and palms like we have now. I'd like to see strangler figs and emancipation oaks in game at some point, especially once climbing animals are implemented

[earnest robin]

Oh that would be interesting. Im not too sure about what their bite force will be since herra now in legacy is very baby bite right now. 🤔

[golden coral]

I believe the issue is just a case of hype for now, it's easy cause deinos everywhere. When deino population goes down, as it should, the rest will go up, and you'll have more varied prey, even if everyone goes stego you'd have far more small stegos to nab at that. And diets will discourage cannibalizing, at least for most species, but for all we know deino might be one of the ones that do eat their own, like cerato is said to do as well.

[nova olive]

I gotta disagree with some of that. Rn deinos are the easiest prey not only because of the hype but because babies are weaker and slower when small, so they have literally zero chance of escape if a larger deino wants to eat them. They also struggle with even juvie stegs rn, so thats not a good alternative food-wise either. But to what youre saying about diets thats kinda my point, deinos probably WILL be good cannibals 'cause they are in nature, so there needs to be some other mechanic or balance method applied so that baby deinos have at least a chance of growing up and so that theyre encouraged to be cooperative predators rather than enemies. Also if they DONT become cooperative hunters, then large animals or even packs of midsize animals will have no reason to fear being near the water because chances are, they'll only be attacked by one deino if any and will be able to escape or beat it back if they do get attacked, which makes the deino kinda a pointless addition that may as well have just been a playable fish instead.

[midnight valley]

@runic cliff you know how to buck?

[runic cliff]

I was bucking, did nothing lol

[golden coral]

That's fair, the sonar, lack of underwater foliage, and the fact that bigger deinos are just outright better is an issue. But a small stego does not weigh much, that should be fine to drown I think. Not that I think most people would go stego after deino, I'm sure we'll see a lot of stuff, tenno, utah, carno are all popular dinos too so. I've heard nothing but carnos the entire day today.. :p

[midnight valley]

I mean did you like run to a tree or anything?

cuz steggo vs utah is super hard for the utah to win, real easy for steggo to win

[golden coral]

I suspect that if a deino do grab something, the others would help. Opportunistic predatory behaviour would most likely be a thing, if not cooperative. Just make sure you don't get too wounded, or they might turn on you instead.

Not to mention that larger things will fear going swimming, and all that, anyway. And even a pack can be at risk of one of their members getting grabbed from the shore.

[nova olive]

^ interesting point. IG we'll just have to see how it plays out

[golden coral]

Fuck all they can do at that point. Go in after their friend? And let every other deino in there get free hits.. :p

You grab a sub stego, what's the rest of the herd gonna do, swim in after you? :p

Just add a few things to help juvie deinos out vs their bigger versions, and it should end up pretty good I think.

[nova olive]

Definintely a good starting point at least. Hopefully a dev or QA is monitoring the discussion and we'll see at least that much of a balance change here soon, then we can decide if they need any more balance changes after that.

[earnest robin]

Yeah I do hope the mangrove idea does come to light eventually. That would be really beneficial for baby and juvi deinos along with other semi aquatic critters possibly. Not to mention they may include more fish and ai for that kind of area.

[wheat field]

I may of found a solution for the deino biteforce thing

Just maybe

[nova olive]

Honestly I'm just excited to see new environmental featutes/biomes, it'll make any new map sooo much more fun & interesting and pRetTtyYYY

[nova olive]

ooh do tell

[earnest robin]

I agree the Evirma map is very gorgeous

[stark knoll]

@feral axle teno growth is 2hrs currently

[sinful cove]

carno should be less agile though i think

[wheat field]

You gonna have to wait, ima write it out in a notepad or someshit edit and refine it post it here receive the criticism refine again put it here for review and we go from there

[feral axle]

Then 1:30

[nova olive]

i respect that. Ping me once you add it if you could cause i am veryyy interested to read it

[wheat field]

But i do think it could be a solution and can be used in the Tug of War mechanic when it comes out

[feral axle]

Actually idk

[nova olive]

ooh love the idea of a tug-of-war mechanic. it'll be super complicated to program but if they do it and it works with minimal bugs by full release (if thats even possible) that would be siiick

[golden coral]

@wheat field This should be interesting. Let me know when it's up as well!

[wheat field]

I wouldn’t be to interested im just some normie HS Student with time on his hands

[civic moth]

why

has

giant Deino

always

to be

proposed ?

Like we do not need of it.

[wheat field]

literally no one said it

cept for 14 tons

That was said XD

[civic moth]

It is the giant boy.

The game doesn't need of it lmao.

5 to 8 tons Deino is already enough.

[nova olive]

dont talk urself down my guy, young ppl are some of the most creative ppl there are! also most of us are teens-20s so ur not out of the ordinary here

[golden coral]

Even so, I assure you, I've probably seen worse if nothing else. So let's have it!

[nova olive]

Bababoy we've been discussing how to balance deino for the past like 30mins or more, so if you're interested to hear genuine arguments for & against just scroll up and read what we've been talking abt

[earnest robin]

I too, am a normie in dinosaur knowledge but boy do I love them and love nature. I don’t know a ton about paleontology but I do enjoy zoology and like to think that in some instances dino life and modern life are in some particular ways similar. Pyro mentioning living in Florida and loving gators is also the same for me! They’re both terrifying and awe inspiring, so anything that you think would be appropriate for a balance suggestion is always something everyone should take a look at!

[nova olive]

hell yea ^ good vibes and gator thoughts only here 👌

[wheat field]

If a deino grabs a carno compared to a utah is the stam drain the same or nah?

[earnest robin]

Hmmmm that’s a good question. I would think it wouldn’t completely be the same only due to carno naturally having more stamina than utah since they’re very leggy? 🤔

[modest carbon]

Would be cool if larger things take more stam to hold

[wheat field]

hehe

[wheat field]

what do you think i am suggesting 😉

[modest carbon]

Ping me when that biteforce solution comes

pls

[wheat field]

sure

Aight here's what i got so far and i am expanding on it based off of feedback, THIS IS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND AS I BARELY UNDERSTAND IT so ask questions

LITERALLY 9 LETTERS OVER MAX BRUH

[earnest robin]

Let’s have it 👀

[modest carbon]

Yes pls 👀

[wheat field]

Gimme a sec some words go bye bye now cause Discord big non cool

[modest carbon]

[wheat field]

Prepare for disappointment cause even i am confused by this theorized system

[modest carbon]

Oh wow look at that

[wheat field]

Did dit it send?

[modest carbon]

Yes

Wait

[nova olive]

yes but cut off on the end

[modest carbon]

Are you assigning biteforce to stamina?

[earnest robin]

Gosh dang it I can’t see the file. That’s probably my own fault though since I don’t have fancy pants file opener apps.

[wheat field]

Biteforce is assigned to lunging stamina

[nova olive]

maybe just put it in a google doc & share the link, public view but private editing?

[wheat field]

aight

say good BYE

[wheat field]

FUCK HE FOUND IT

[modest carbon]

There

[earnest robin]

Bless thank you

[modest carbon]

Np

I think this concept is good

The more stamina you have when lunging the higher the biteforce is

[wheat field]

otherway around but yeah

[modest carbon]

Wait

Yeah

[golden coral]

Hm

[modest carbon]

Still putting lunge in favor of just spam biting

I do like the idea of bigger things using more stam to hold

[earnest robin]

That kind of reminds me of as if the deino got tired and couldn’t lunge out all the way. Less stamina resulting in baby lunges haha. I do think that’s a very interesting mechanic though, especially since it would make the deino player be more calculated and precise in what it wants to lunge out at per say.

Don’t want to waste it all on something that could not be easy to snatch in a sense I would presume 🤔

[earnest robin]

And yes I like that too

[modest carbon]

I just hope they make the more aiming part better because right now you have to move your cam quite a lot to both hit your target and see your target

[wheat field]

Hitboxes will prob be fixed when Update launches

[modest carbon]

Ah true

[wheat field]

I need criticism where is that shin guy they always hating on deinos

[earnest robin]

Stamina drain for lunging fully and maybe grabbing and pulling sounds quite nice to me so far.

[modest carbon]

Yeah

I'd like the enhanced sense to do a bit more

Like tell you the size of stuff coming from a far

[wheat field]

For the randoms i called from General Feedback Discussion

[golden coral]

@turbid depot As long as you figure out how it can't be abused to troll herbis and so on, it might be possible.

[modest carbon]

Nothing too negative, I think it could be more towards rotting corpses

[crystal wharf]

no idea why you included biteforce, and dot bleeding? no, the way it is now is fine, just needs stam drain for larger things to be increased

[golden coral]

Possible, but not sure how that would stop trolling unless you can't take those with you

[modest carbon]

Once a body gets to the rotting point I think it should be to weak and brittle to pick up

[wheat field]

Biteforce will be translated to overall stamina so the greater a deinos biteforce the longer it will be able to sustain a grapple/lunge, the reason i make this translation is because crocodiles bites are made to be strong to grapple onto things so by putting this together i made biteforce a stam thing for deinos lunge explicitly while still allowing for Deinos base bite of 500 to exist

[crystal wharf]

why not just have stamina drain be tied to animal weight? why go through all the bite force trouble

[modest carbon]

Hmm I've having trouble understanding if you are saying to lessen deinos biteforce based on stamina? Or increase it above 500N if you have full stamina

[wheat field]

think of it like this Deinos biteforce is on it on right

But we can make it to were deinos overall biteforce is turned into 100% of his lunge stamina no matter how big his biteforce is that is 100% of his lunge stamina

[modest carbon]

Thats.. a bit complex

[wheat field]

reasons we need criticism dear friend

[modest carbon]

The criticism is that I cant figure out the heck that means

[wheat field]

Well lemme put it this way

Adult deino is 500N

we all know this

So 500N is = to 100% of lunge stamina

he has unlocked 100% of his potential to fully use his lunge stamina to its fullest extent

[nova olive]

what is "lunge stam"? is there a separate stam stat specific to lunge?

[modest carbon]

^

[wheat field]

Lets put it this way lunge stam is regular stam but stamina will decrease at a faster rate when using lunge if you are smaller in biteforce so i call it lunge stam to just shorten the term

[modest carbon]

So basically, bigger things take more stamina to hold, and when you are smaller lunge takes more stam

Right?

What does it have to do with biteforce then

[crystal wharf]

so why not make it just based on the weight of prey compared to your own weight? so much more simple

[wheat field]

I say biteforce cause crocodiles grip strength is based off of there large biteforces and jaw muscles

but i do see where i am making it over-complicated by a long shot

[modest carbon]

Beyond long shot

It's on another continent

[nova olive]

my brain is folding in on itself

[wheat field]

Simple brain explanation

Biteforce = how long you are able to hold dino in total Weight = reduces amount of time you are able to hold dino based on how big the opponent is and what your biteforce is

Biteforce is just how im translating grip strength like how long you can hold on to a bar till you let go, like some larger people won't be able to hold on long even tho they have relatively large grip strengthss

[modest carbon]

So big thing take more stam to hold and when small take more stam to hold

[nova olive]

oHHH i see now

thank u for the smooth brain description

[wheat field]

As much as my stubborn ass wants to say No to prove a point, in a way yes

[earnest robin]

Ok I think I’m pickin up what you’re putting down

[modest carbon]

Ye

[nova olive]

so programming-wise, there will need to be an equation which factors in the ratio of animal weights as well as bite force, and then the resulting number will be applied to a stam drain rate equation which ALSO includes the bite force of the deino?

[wheat field]

Biteforce = maximum length you can hold a dino, weight just reduces the time

[earnest robin]

Yeah I mean explained in those laymen’s terms I think that can be considered a valid feedback for balance.

[wheat field]

if this was to get implemented i can only imagine what people would say to people who want a deino bite force increase

[earnest robin]

Then again the whole dinosaur swimming in water bite/grab/pull and drag may get a little more complicated in that sense, am I right?

[wheat field]

no cause then you would just .5 target weight

[earnest robin]

I’m horrible with numbers and all that so I’m only guessing over here.

Ahh okay

[nova olive]

i - ok lemme try to get a description of how thats calculated down again. So biteforce defines the rate at which your stam drains while holding onto an animal during & following a lunge. Then, the weight of that animal is factored in to effect the stam drain further, decreasing it anywhere from very slightly for say a dryo or hypsi to immensely for a steg or shant? is that true to the concept youve got in mind joker?

[wheat field]

Described it pretty well

[nova olive]

ayyyyyy alright i get u then

that is an interesting way to handle the lunge mechanic, what balance issue is it intended to fix again? 😂

[wheat field]

Balance. Yes. About balance. hmmm

biteforce stronk

Yes

pretty good reasoning if you ask me

[earnest robin]

Perhaps in balance, it helps not all dinosaurs that cannot be insta ate by deino have a chance at surviving a deino attack in a lack of better terms.

[nova olive]

i. WHAT

[wheat field]

You gotta read between the lines like poetry or someshit idk

[nova olive]

Does... does that just mean that you also don't remember the problem you were trying to solve and don't want to admit it

[wheat field]

absolutely

[nova olive]

gotcha

at least you're honest 😂

[wheat field]

the biteforce thing is whack no one will ever agree

[earnest robin]

Well, it’s the thought that counts. 😆

[wheat field]

Anti-Deino Buffers and Deino Buffers all have the same argument with alot of the time anti-deino buffers saying "You're brain dead" and some deino buffers saying "Deino need 10000000000000000000000000000000000000N of biteforce"

[lament cloak]

im still not sure what redilisious means, but all deino has to do is lunge and if you manage to pick something up anywhere near the water its dead

[wheat field]

who is redilisious?

[lament cloak]

nobody, thats what the guy said what it is when deino bites carno

[wheat field]

ridiculous maybe

[lament cloak]

idk if they were trying to say ridiculous? but L and C are nowhere near each other on the keyboard

[wheat field]

probably foreigner

or non-native english speaker rather

[lament cloak]

actually it might be an abc keyboard, because L and C are close on that

[wheat field]

@nova olive @earnest robin So which one of you wants to rewrite my stroke of an idea to something readable?

[earnest robin]

Well I sorta already presented my bit earlier today so probably not me 😆

[lament cloak]

anyway, deino doesn't really need a buff, the only problem is with stego players abuseing their power and camping deinos (which is avoidable though it shouldn't be happening in the first place), but otherwise once deino is fully grown the only thing you should be dying to is other deinos.

[wheat field]

You are voluntold as my teacher would say to write the new suggestion

[earnest robin]

[nova olive]

I mean. I would re-write your idea in like programmer terms. But i still don't know why you thought of it and thats the most important part, like great you have a theoretical solution but if you don't have a problem then why is there a solution u know?

[wheat field]

we'll put it into general feedback i guess XD

[nova olive]

bUt. BuT tHeRe'S sTiLL nO pRoBLeM tO sOLve???

[wheat field]

Problem solved

balance

[wheat field]

i solved a problem are you proud of me?

[nova olive]

i mean, cool glad u thought up the solution to that on accident and before it was suggested but thats still just a potential implementation of a suggestion, not a solution to a problem, which means it belongs in suggestion discussion still not as its own suggestion

[wheat field]

Solution to the solution we find a problem

like CNN

[nova olive]

😂 😂 if u can find a problem that solution solves then by all means, throw it in one of the feedback chats as a suggestion to solve that problem, just give the context of the problem it solves and ur good 👌

[wheat field]

ima have a stroke by the time im done aren't I

[alpine plover]

The argument of deino dropping its catch when bit is dumb. How else is it gonna drag things back to the water to kill it?

[modest carbon]

I think if the deino has enough damage to it, it should drop what it's holding, it shouldn't be forced to drop with a sneeze

But it would be nice to have a chance at saving whoever being yeeted

[golden coral]

Eh.. you save them by beating the shit out of the deino

[modest carbon]

Thats true

Yeah thats fair

[golden coral]

After all, in most cases, you'd not have a chance, it'll grab you from shore and be in the water after that

So it would mostly apply if it somehow has a long way back to drown your friend, in which case you could possibly just body block it from getting back :p

[modest carbon]

What if perhaps dragging a body would slow you down?

Or lunging

Grabbing something

[golden coral]

It could, but I'm not sure it's needed, if the deino goes inland to grab someone, it's already messed up a bit

[modest carbon]

Very true

[golden coral]

And normally I get attacked at the shoreline, so it's just grab, turn around, into the water I go

[thin herald]

@grim rune Deino is fine as of now. People who complain that Deino needs its bite force to be 1,000+ Newtons of force is ridiculous. You can't have this mindset of face tanking anything you see like in Legacy (which was fucking awful). If you give Deino 1,000N+ bite force, it will body literally everything in the current roadmap roster. It would literally make the game not fun. Hmmm yes, growing a 5 hour stego only to get one shot. Sounds pretty damn fun. Oh, you wanna grow a Trike? Nah, you're going to get one shot.

One bigger things are introduced, you can give it 600-650 kg bite force. Maybe 700 kg max. Otherwise, Deino will literally be unbearable to come in contact with. If that's the case, fuck co-existing animals in an ecosystem (Minmi, Beipi, and Deino).

It literally would make that non-existent.

[sinful cove]

“It's fair that 2 utahs can kill a 5hr grow but it's not fair that this 5hr grow has a way to defend itself from our busted pounce ability”

Not biased btw

[novel tulip]

If you land a perfectly timed punch on a lion it'll still eat you LOL

[sinful cove]

Does this guy want utah to have invincibility frames back

[lament cloak]

yes, lets just make the high risk high reward animal low risk high reward, that sounds good to me

[sinful cove]

Doesnt stego bleed out after like 2-3 pounces

[novel tulip]

The qa servers aren't moderated, but as always when administration is re implemented mixpacking will go down

If you get caught mixpacking you get kicked and your dino becomes free food, not a risk people are willing to take

[turbid crater]

Miragaia here thinks it's acceptable for a utah to be pounced as he lands from a pounce off

Is that what I can read?

[novel tulip]

What???

[turbid crater]

Fuck what I said about 2 3 utahs being able to kill a stego, it's true but not even the main point of the suggestion

[sinful cove]

Outworld here thinks that the 5 hour grow who has no choice but to defend itself in this matchup shouldn't be able to defend itself

[turbid crater]

My point here is: Stego should not be able to just spam RMB and impale a utah as he lands from a deliberate pounce off

[novel tulip]

If 2 to 3 utahs can hunt a stego then why do you want to buff utahs????

[sinful cove]

If you're having so much trouble with stegos go hunt something else like a dryo or a juvie deino

[turbid crater]

I don't care about 2 or 3 utahs situations

[novel tulip]

Pounce does high damage and therefore to balance it it has high risk

[sinful cove]

Then you don’t have to be upset because those animals can't defend themselves

[turbid crater]

I care about whenever a utah lands from a pounce off, everytime he lands he will already be on the process of being impaled

[sinful cove]

Then maybe he picked the wrong fight

[novel tulip]

It is perfectly logical for the gigantic animal youre hunting to defend itself when you take the extreme risk of literally jumping on its back

[sinful cove]

Stegos are still getting killed by utah packs so it clearly isn't a big issue

[stark knoll]

stegos are currently getting slaughtered by utahs, even solos

that pounce bleed buff is no joke

[turbid crater]

It's not the wrong fight, it's a broken mechanic that whenever a Utah pounces on a Stego he's already dead because of the way the pounce off works, will put the utah already on the stego's tail

[runic cliff]

I can tell you, since I died as Stego today to bleed from 2 utahs that they got away after every jump 100% even while swinging my tail, because of a delay in the attack!!

[sinful cove]

lmao broken mechanic that a 6 ton animal can kill a raptor that is next to it ok

[turbid crater]

Yeye, should be buffed stego's so solo utahs should not be able to kill them as easily as they can now, that's not the point

You dense much?

Explain to me how, as a Utah, is fair for you to time your pounce off well, and even so, when you land, you're impaled, regardless of when you pounce off

[sinful cove]

Nope, i just don't agree with you because utahs frequently dodge stego's tail after pouncing so you are doing something wrong

[runic cliff]

You can so easy tell when stego is about to swing..

[novel tulip]

Pouncing a stego in the first place is a very dangerous move and if you get impaled that's completely and totally your fault

[turbid crater]

Because said stegos dont do this broken trick of just standing still and spamming RMB

[sinful cove]

They spam and it drains their stam, just let them do that

Bait them or hunt something else

It isnt hard

[limber elbow]

@fresh cave its a stress test server with no rules packs will be a thing when its on an actual server you including mix packing as balance isnt accurate

[turbid crater]

Well, judging by your name and discord pic you're clearly biased to one side. Devs will not be, hopefully. My point is simply that if you time well your pounce off, you shouldn't be impaled as you land, as it currently happens if the Stego stands still and spams RMB

If you disagree with common sense, then whatever

[novel tulip]

I'm literally a carno main but ok

[runic cliff]

Its way to easy right now...one utah at the head of the stego doing fakes, the other one goes in for the pounce, once hes done the other one takes over, so steg doesnt have time to track it.. but hes to slow to do so anyway. Win win situation for Utah every time!

[novel tulip]

Common sense dictates that if you jump onto a lion and punch it and get mauled its your fault

[turbid crater]

Not even talking to you Yeah

[sinful cove]

I played carno and cerato in legacy more than any herbis. Judging me off my fav dino that isn't even in game much lmao. im just sick of carni players, usually utah and rex stans, whining that herbivores should just die against their busted ass abilities

Trike was also trash in legacy, nothing to do with bias either

[turbid crater]

But for the first time I will address to your poor analogies, Yeah, their mouths? Sure, but common sense dictates that you jump on the lions ass and then you bounce off, when you land, you shouldn't immediately colapse to a tail swing, as you land

[novel tulip]

A smarter move would be juking the stego until it has low stam, then pounxing, so that its stam would run out as it spams rmb, letting you jump off safely. It just takes thinking to do instead of begging for i frames and nerfs

[sinful cove]

Poor analogies that you should just get better and do what tons of other utahs are successfully doing in disengaging pounce without getting hit? Aight

[novel tulip]

The lion were talking about has a tail covered in spikes that can swing the full length of its body so idk why you think you should be able to pounce without thinking and not get punished

[turbid crater]

Get better at what? When it's a game's mechanic that prevents me from landing from one attack without dying?

[sinful cove]

Baiting attacks is too hard though he should just be able to faceroll pounce the stego with 0 repercussions!

[novel tulip]

Stego is high risk high reward, you need to strategize and be smart if you want to avoid being impaled by it, especially as a small animal

[sinful cove]

Ask the countless other utah players who are pouncing and disengaging safely what they are doing instead of complaining that something needs a nerf because you messed up

[turbid crater]

Everyone! Let's go pounce on a Stego! Only downside is that if the Stego stays still and spams RMB will kill us before we even land from our attack! I'm sure that's how it was meant! You pounce off from the animal you're attacking and you instantly get dropped

Tx

[modest badge]

so is bleed actually viable now?

[novel tulip]

Jumping at it when it still has enough stamina to spam tail swipes at you is not smart thinking

Your reward is getting impaled

[runic cliff]

Lol I can tell you Outworld it doesnt work like that

I did what you are saying and I didnt hit any utah ONCE

[turbid crater]

Whilst stopped as stego and just spamming RMB? You didn't kill the Utah when he landed? That's interesting... and very questionable

[runic cliff]

Yet its the truth, why would I make a post in feedback otherwise? All I know now is that lag might be a factor too.

And I also know what youre coming from because I have also been impaled, not just as Utah but also as Carno, theres a lot of factors at play and server stability as it is now doesnt help gameplay...At all!

[slender latch]

What's the biteforce from the Pteranodon 🤔 I've forgot it 😅

[slim dragon]

50 N

[slender latch]

Thanks a lot 👍🏻

[alpine plover]

Only viable to bleed Utah/Carno/ Some Herbis. Flyers and Deinos may as well be immune as they're so safe and can't be attacked if they choose not to.

[proud swan]

You can’t have civil discourse with ignorant and bias players. I’m glad you have spoken out about this broken/overlooked design choice by the dev team. currently pounce has long recovery frames when missing a pounce, which I can understand. But it now also has a dismount landing animation that temporarily stuns the player from any movement when dismounting, allowing for any mounted Dino to hard counter a pounce. It seems counter intuitive to punish a skill when using it for its exact purpose. I have a discord community of particularly skilled players with 2 private training servers so we’ve worked out pretty much every trick in the book. In update 2 a stego could land a tail swipe on a dismounting Utah and tag its tail if it had the camera angled and waited for the dismount. Some of the time it would miss but that was due to either human reaction times and server latency. Fun fact. A carno can 100% of the time hit a Utah on dismounting with alittle trick I discovered. In update 3 it’s even riskier. The Utah’s dismount keeps the player in the air too long AND briefly transitions into a landing animation when you land, preventing any movement inputs at all. My community have no training server for update 3 yet but using the same methodology from training, both a stego and Carno can 100% hit a dismounting Utah. That’s just plain wrong. It’s poor game design, to punish a move set for its intended purpose. I hope the devs missed this bug and it wasn’t wilful decision. A simple fix would be to remove the landing stun animation or allow the Utah to kick further away from the body when dismounting.

[frosty heron]

Nice info, it's stuff I wanted to test on full release because right now it's a bit hard to just grow and test stuff with friends related to combat

[thin herald]

Stego bleeds out after 2 full pounces yes

[golden coral]

@cedar shore You do already stun them on lunge, and two deinos can very well kill a solo stego, even without stun, if they plan it out.

[slim dragon]

This will all be fixed with tug-of-war

[golden coral]

If we get that!

[cedar shore]

Doesnt the deinos stun themselves if they lunge at a stego?

[golden coral]

From what I've been told, and experienced, stego do get the stun. It's possible it also stuns the deino. The announcement reads as if it's the deino getting stunned, but I've had some effects when I've been lunged by deinos as stego at least.

[cedar shore]

Hm

You sure 2 good deinos could kill a stego though?

[golden coral]

Yes, if they know what they're doing that should be perfectly doable, they have the damage advantage, assuming hitboxes don't screw you over

You fourshot a stego on the head

[cedar shore]

Honestly utah got an insane nerf in this new update, i can undestand the lower damage higher bleed and i can understand the missed pounce knockdown but the fact that you jump off SO slowly makes pouncing big dinos completely unviable

[golden coral]

Even if you take five shots in return and die, that's still only one of you

From the vids I've seen, you can get off perfectly fine as utah. I don't think it's nerfed at all, the bleed seems to have buffed it if anything.

Maybe it's trickier vs carno

[cedar shore]

Its jumping off thats a problem. Its so easy to get attacked when jumping off

[golden coral]

Which might be fine, carno is designed to opress the small shit

[cedar shore]

Stego, teno carno can all easily hit u

[golden coral]

Like I said, from the vid I saw of Dbear and the others hunting a stego, there was no real difference

[cedar shore]

Yeah but if u look closely they only jump off when the stego attacks

[golden coral]

You get off like you always have, except maybe you have to automatically start to run. But he got off just fine, even surviving a base of the tail hit like it was nothing

Well, that always goes?

You could get hit before too if you were jumping off

[cedar shore]

When most players learn about how vulnearable utah is when jumping off and take advantage off ot then people will realize how bad the pounce is

[frosty heron]

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking hits with a mechanic that already punishes you for missing it, successfully landing a pounce and getting guaranteed damage jumping off from it shouldnt be a thing no matter the creature you're facing off

[golden coral]

But getting off safely shouldn't really be a thing either. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't I feel.

[cedar shore]

what?? thats the whole point of pounce

[golden coral]

It's not bad at all. All it means is you need an actual pack really.

[frosty heron]

Yes could depend on player reaction time but anyways , mix it up with the possibility of using trees/rocks as defense

[frosty heron]

Read it again, you got me wrong

[slim dragon]

No dino should be balanced around packing

[golden coral]

If you're two or three utahs, you should be pouncing tennos or carnos, if you're four or five you can go after a stego. And even then, expect to lose one or maybe two. I don't know, Dondi did say something about 15 utahs for a rex, and half of the pack would still die.

[golden coral]

For offense, yes. For defense/survivability, no.

Not balanced around it, but what I mean is that you should be viable solo, always, no matter what. But viable does not equate to hunting/fighting everything. There's a difference there.

[slim dragon]

The fact you can take a guaranteed hit after a pounce still seems wrong
If they really wanna keep the mini-stun after landing, at least they could implement the option to "jump-out" by pressing jump during the pounce

[golden coral]

You're fine as a utah to survive without hunting a rex. You don't need a pack to survive, but you might need one to punch up against something. Vs needing a pack/herd to defend yourself/survive in general.

[slim dragon]

This way you can make some distance between you and your opponent, at the cost of stamina

[golden coral]

And yes, a jump off costing extra stamina might be nice, maybe a cooldown on that one, like carno charge. So you'd have to trade with the others if you want to remain safe.

And I agree, guaranteed hit when getting off is bad, but so is guaranteed safety, I'd say.

But there's no stun after landing?

No idea where that comes from. The only difference is that you don't start running immediately, you can still trot, or start run manually?

[slim dragon]

The animation during which you can't move

[golden coral]

If you mean when you miss a pounce?

But I think they mean after getting off from a pounce

[modest carbon]

There is a pause when you land after jumping off early

It's just enough for even if you do manage to get away the stego reaches you somehow, almost everytime

[golden coral]

I don't see it, not in their vid at least.

And even so, you can survive a tailhit, not just tip, but the base

[frosty heron]

That sounds bad :/

Hope I can test it soon

[golden coral]

He pounces at least three times, no issues with getting off from what I can see there

[frosty heron]

Even if that's the case, getting hit there means half blood pool off and about 60% hp, you're off from the fight for a while

And who knows maybe someday hit registration fails and you get 1 shooted

[golden coral]

You're not. Look in the vid, even with over half blood out and very low, you can still engage. Act as distraction. No need to even wallow/rest to survive :p

[frosty heron]

Yes but you can't really risk another pounce or close attack, you only serve as bait

[cedar shore]

When playing stegos its really easy to land a hit on utahs right when they jump out with a tail swipe.

[golden coral]

Even so, you're still in the fight

And can pounce given the right circumstances :p

[frosty heron]

Anyways just the idea of getting hit even landing a pounce sounds ridiculous and that should be fixed

[golden coral]

You could do that before to be honest

[cedar shore]

Yeah i like that they made making missing a pounce punishing but its still very punishing to just.. jump off

[golden coral]

So how do we fix it so getting off is still dangerous. It shouldn't be a given hit, but it also shouldn't be a free "I can do damage and get away safely"

[cedar shore]

allways has been since update 2 i know

Instead of jumping up a bit when jumping off make it so that you jump straight to the ground and run away

[frosty heron]

You should get away safely, imagine Carnos using its charge and being vulnerable after landing it on a smaller prey or a Teno, that's just a no no

[cedar shore]

Actually there was an invincibility frame on jumping off a pounce when update 2 came out

[frosty heron]

The unsafety of pounce for Utahs its the trees/rocks strat, that's the hard punishment even for landing it

[cedar shore]

Dont want that to come back but i do want utahs to run away faster when they jump off

[golden coral]

And thats stupid, you should not be locked to a tree or rock to be "safe" :p

[golden coral]

Except if a carno charges a too big thing, it gets stunned and can get punished. So there is that.

[cedar shore]

There are several ways of getting a pounced utah off yourself. Dont have the utahs THEMSELVES get punished from jumping off

[golden coral]

Considering they can get on safely too, I don't know

That just makes pounce safe to use

[frosty heron]

I think it's a pretty good counter actually, so staying on open plains it's a bit too dangerous as you're giving the predators space for manouver and retreat

[cedar shore]

If they miss poucing onto a dino they fall for like 2-3 sec which is VERY punishing

[golden coral]

Hard disagree. It's stupid, you should not be locked to envrioment to be safe against an attack. To protect against attack vectors, sure, but not against the attack itself. Especially not if you're a plains animal and are supposed to be out there. That's like making deino weak/vunerable when it is swimming in water/deep water. :p

[frosty heron]

Yeah but that's balanced for the Carno as it shouldn't be using its mechanic on bigger animals, but Utah pounce is meant for that

[golden coral]

And the predators should always have a harder time than the prey anyway xD

So if they have the space to manuever and retreat, then you need to give some better defense for what is out there.

[cedar shore]

Utahs cant really kill carnos anyways right now as it can just run away while it bleeds like crazy

The utahs wont be able to chase it as they used all of their stam on the pounce

[golden coral]

Yes, but missing a pounce on a big and slow target is very hard to do. Also since you can jump from front and still get slotted on.

[cedar shore]

Fair, but keep in mind big targets need a lot more pounces to die. And if they are close to water or a tree the utahs cant do shit other than bite

[golden coral]

I don't know, some people disagree that utahs are meant to hunt big animals. I think the pounce should be for that, but so should the pack. Maybe that's the price you pay, you lose a pack member or two. It's hardly ideal, but there needs to be far more risk in using the pounce vs how effective it is. You barely need to get on more than two or three times, that's just not enough for a big game hunt. And I will hard disagree with using rocks/trees, its stupid, its stupider when we have a buck meant to be used!

[golden coral]

Right, because two or three pounces are "a lot more". Maybe if it took 6-7 full pounces to get a stego to die, I'd agree with pounce being safe getting off from.

Cause then you'd have to pounce a fair few times, and thus opening yourself to risk from that side instead.

[cedar shore]

I highly disagree that utahs cant kill larger animals. It would make playing in utah packs so booring and make poucing meaningless

[golden coral]

And the tree/rock thing is stupid. But that could be fixed with a proper pounce mechanic.

[golden coral]

I'm fine with utahs hunting big game in packs, but 2-3 utahs isn't a big pack by any means.

But make a proper pounce mechanic, like lunge should be, and using trees/rocks would be far more of a tradeoff, as it should be.

[cedar shore]

nah but 2-3 utahs would struggle to kill a stego

[golden coral]

Which they don't as it stands right now :p 2-3 utahs should be for a tenno or carno, and 5-6 utahs for a stego.

If that was the case, then I'd be fine with pounce being a safe way off, cause then they'd have to actually get on multiple times, opening themselves up to being caught and stopped that way.

[cedar shore]

Regardeless, i feel like if jumping off dinos just got a lot faster utah would be more balanced overall? I mean, its small but has a pretty long growth time for its weight so at least make it a bit more viable rn? Do we all agree on that?

[frosty heron]

Losing members on a big hunt shouldn't be a thing neither, we're talking about players not AI minions, that people had to grow that Utah and 1 hour 30 mins doesn't seem much in comparison to the prey yes but still long enought to make you not wanna regrow.

[golden coral]

Is it really not viable though?

[frosty heron]

If you die its because you commited mistakes

[cedar shore]

I really depends on the players, if they know how woulnerable you are when jumping off then no

[golden coral]

Then you don't hunt the things that are too dangerous. But I do sort of agree, but there needs to be greater risks involved.

[golden coral]

Is utah viable to survive with?

Thats the only thing that matters

[cedar shore]

I guess survive but not hunt bigger things which makes it a lot less fun to be in a big pack and hunt together yknow?

[golden coral]

Can you escape/hunt to keep yourself alive solo?

[frosty heron]

I don't know I just keep thinking about getting hit guaranteed after jumping off the pounce and it sounds as stupid as the Stego tail bug from Update 2 where Stegos couldn't do nothing

[golden coral]

You can hunt big things though? You got 5 utahs, that stego will die, no matter what it does?

[frosty heron]

Imagine landing one of your riskiest mechanics and being punished for that :/

[cedar shore]

Eh, if it knows how to land hits on utahs jumping off a pounce or abuse trees then no. If a stego just camps by a tree you are gona need like 30 utahs to kill it

[golden coral]

I do agree on that one. Guaranteed hit on hop off is stupid, but it's less guaranteed than the other bug. You can get off safely if the prey is distracted or otherwise misses. It's not a guarantee that you will die, just that if the prey times it, you get caught.

[golden coral]

Not really, if it camps, you headbite it.

[cedar shore]

ig but it takes a lot of skill to do that without getting hit

[golden coral]

And if it turns, you take turns on the sides. It'll have to turn back and forth, and you just jump on/jump off

[cedar shore]

Yeah its plausible but unreasonably hard lol

[stiff oak]

You're forgetting that stego can hit it's front

[golden coral]

Not really. Biting stego head is easy, it can't defend very well in that area at all :p And utahs and carnos are plenty agile to do it :p

[frosty heron]

You can always bait attacks and do it, Utah agility let's you do it

[golden coral]

It can't actually

You don't strike that far to actually cover your head

[frosty heron]

Stego front attacks leaves it very vulnerable tho, for whole 3 seconds

[golden coral]

And if you know the attack range, you're good

Cause stego can't change the attack range at all

[cedar shore]

Utahs, yeah ig if you are good. Carnos, not sure about that. I might not be the best carno player but when i tried to do that i got a nasty tail hit dealing like 1000 dmg

[stiff oak]

Stego does have a bite tho

[golden coral]

I think carnos can too, just in a slightly different trajectory.

[cedar shore]

it sucks

[golden coral]

But yes, carno is harder to do it with

I mean, you don't die to stego bite unless you.. well, literally facetank it

And thats only for utah anyway

[frosty heron]

I can confirm you can, I've fought 2 Stegos as solo Carno baiting attacks and running in for bites

[golden coral]

A stego will not win a "facetank" with anything but a utah, and even then it'd take punishment

I think it's.. 6 bites to kill a utah with stego bites?

Assuming headshots

[cedar shore]

stego bite is only used for bullying smaller dinos giving them a long sufferable death

[stiff oak]

I mean, you're gonna bite the head, you will get hit by the bite, and if you try to run away, then sure, you're good but, if you go to the side you're dead

[golden coral]

You'd paid the stego back over 1K damage, and bleed at that in return xD

[cedar shore]

Ive seen stegos chomp sub deinos to death when they were far away from water

kinda funny

[golden coral]

@frosty heron Anyway, I do agree that guaranteed death on getting off is bad, but so is guaranteed getting off safely sort of. But if it required more pounces, so there were more actual risk, then it would be fine. But since it only takes 2-3 pounces, I don't know as of right now. You can distract the target with the other utahs anyway, bite at the head, and all that, to force a swing and then get off, if you plan it properly.

And having stego have to hug a tree or rock as a plains animal is about as reasonable as carno running away from the plains into the forest to hide. It's meant for the plains, it should have all the advantage there.

[golden coral]

Funny and sad :p

[versed rune]

@proud swan You ok man? You seem unnecessarily heated lol, just wanna make sure you’re feeling alright :). I don’t know if it was exactly 300 feet, as I assume you’d know there’s no way to actually know that in game. It was an estimate based on the distance we traveled. My point is that I landed about 4-5 hits on a croc that grabbed a packmate before it escaped into deep water. As an adult carno, that’s 1,400-1,750 damage. If you deal that much damage, then should you not be able to help your teammate?

[sonic flame]

You don't want to end up with groups of animals just chilling near the water with the idea that they can simply dogpile any Deino that attempts to lunge, so if dealing damage is a way to break the hold it'll need to be implemented very carefully

As it is people aren't all that scared of Deinosuchus, so making it so you can just gather a group and start beating on them to stop their signature ability might just make it worse, but its a fun idea to think about

[sinful cove]

I could see a carno ram especially to the front of the body making a deino drop something

[proud swan]

i dont think denying the deino to function as designed is anyway constructive

[alpine plover]

what do you mean?

[proud swan]

biting a deino should not make it drop his grabbed victim

[sinful cove]

Deino should be better in water than he currently is before adding a buddy save like this imo

[sonic flame]

I think what pesky was suggesting wasn't a 1 damage = drop, but more like a threshold of some sort

deal enough damage and it'll stop, but that means you actually need a big enough group to reach the threshold, of course its kind of unneeded since the Deinosuchus cannot defend itself while it is dragging a prey item, so as it stands the packmates can just start wailing on it

[sinful cove]

If you smack deino hard enough or enough times on its neck and head it should drain its stam to make it drop its victim sort of like bucking to make a utah drop

[sonic flame]

To me that sounds more like a struggle for the animal being grabbed than forcing it to rely on other players that may or may not be around

[sinful cove]

Deino should also have a swimming grab, better resist against bleed and be able to grab heavier animals who are swimming in return.

Hes kinda doodoo for a water ‘apex’ rn, but a sort of fighting counter to his grab wouldn’t be bad

[sonic flame]

I mean Deino's only a water 'apex' because there isn't anything bigger in the water atm

But agree on the swimming grab, would be nice

[alpine plover]

I can see peskys idea working if deino ever gets fractures + a better biteforce

Because then people woul have to take a risk when trying to "free" packmate

[sinful cove]

Idk about the biteforce until bigger shit is added but fractures definitely

[sonic flame]

Idk about yall but fractures ontop of the drag seems a bit cheap

You got lucky, the Deino fucked up its timing and you are swimming to the surface, except now he bit you and you have fracture, now you can't get away anyway so it doesn't matter that he fucked up

A bit too easy bake imo when you already basically 1 shot anything you can grab

[past sky]

Anyone else finding stego's attack too fast on the evrima stess testing?

[golden coral]

@past sky Not really, except the one quick jab that is strangely fast, but maybe thats deliberate.

@versed rune I sort of have to agree with Holy here. You hit it for 2K damage, but this thing has probably about 7K health. It's not really going to hurt that much. Maybe if the treshold is about where you're down to redline on health, it might be acceptable. But you could get what you're asking for by just beating a bit more on the deino, at some point it'll either die or let to to try and defend itself while escaping I'd guess.

[lament cloak]

@cosmic hamlet 9 more species? lmao there is more than 50 playables coming, its fine if certain species are extinct, they just become de-extinct as soon as somone wants to play it.

[past sky]

@golden coral, true but that tail jab being quick and high damage makes on the side of being to viable as a playable, honestly in my opinion the speed needs to be reduced and maybe a stam drain added

[cedar shore]

@hexed elbow Buffing deino that much is gona make it busted OP. Also having it only be viable when it hits full adult will make it booring to grow as you have to wait for 8 HOURS. All deino needs is that its lunge hitbox works properly and its fine just as.

[modest carbon]

^

[golden coral]

All stego swings take stamina to use so. I do agree the speed is a bit weird, when all the other angles are slow, maybe take a bit of that speed and just speed the rest up a touch or something, make them all the same speed and all. Though it is cool to have a specific attack for trying to get things in a certain angle, makes for a bit more of planning and all to it.

[cosmic hamlet]

A lot of species, with a lot of potential, are forgotten because of those 50 species together. It's would be a waste of effort

[alpine plover]

I would make it so deino cant attack for a while if he runs out of stam

[sonic flame]

It would be the only animal in the game that has that, which seems a bit unnecessary imo, you could just not give it fracture when it doesn't need it

[alpine plover]

Yeah before I was thinking of getting rid of the fractures underwater but that would be a bit silly and wouldnt make much sense, by "runs out of stam" I mean like after a lunge, not just running around on land.

[sonic flame]

See what I'm wondering is, does Deinosuchus really need fracture at all? If you're hanging about in or near water like you should be then there's no need for it defensively, and on offense it doesn't need the extra help if it can lunge something. If the target is too big to lunge, the Deino probably shouldn't be taking it on, so giving it fracture to hunt things it shouldn't be hunting doesn't make much sense either imo

[mighty knot]

tbh giving deino fracture makes it more of a land predator than a bite force buff

it's gonna be like legacy rex where yeah it's hella slow but if it can catch you for just a second right before it finishes burning it's stam your dead

however much it makes sense, I do truly think a bite force buff (which wouldn't hurt, but it doesn't need right at this moment) would be better for everyone than fracture damage.

[novel tulip]

If it has fracture it should be like. 20 hits or something to get a broken leg

[mighty knot]

thats just way too high

[novel tulip]

To punish people that just jump into rivers to troll

[mighty knot]

20 hits will kill anything

whether it gets a decent bite force or not

I mean the newton label is misleading in-game but it literally bites less than half a strong as a human if you take it for truth

[novel tulip]

20 is just an arbitrary number but like

It shouldn't be rex level where 1-2 bites and you're crippled

[mighty knot]

something like 5 or 4, so you can make a carno rethink it's life choices, but if it decides it wants to 1v1 you

which mind you, not a single carno has turned down that opportunity AFTER being bit in the face by my deino

then it comes back and gets into trouble

which of course if it was they way I wanted it, that carno would be sent to the shadow realm as soon as it managed to get hit by something so much slower than it

but hey that makes deino more powerful

and I'm a deino player

both of those combined make it so my opinion actually is meaningless in this discord

as it turns out

I actually really liked Jörmungandr's suggestion

but no matter what you do to deino, if you make it's stats higher

nobody will agree

even if you literally give it 1 second of sprint time on land

it doesn't matter, nobody cares for a deino that dominates the waterways

but I guess Jörmungandr's suggestion is an actual Deinosuchus, not Deino in name only like we have now

[golden coral]

Problem with doing the "actual" animal is that it will fuck up balance :p

[mighty knot]

Yeah

if we went realism (pls devs make elder deino what I always dreamed deino would be)

then deino would be apex

not quite spino

but it would put up a great fight in water

apparently they want it to be like a psuedo apex but they give it the name of the biggest crocodile in all of history

which had the biggest biteforce of any animal ever in all of history

[golden coral]

Not just deino, apply that realistic stat to every dino and you'll see how well that goes.. :p

[mighty knot]

cries in 50 kilometer per hour giga sprint speed

[golden coral]

Sounds balanced.. :D

[lost gate]

Definately up the Deino's bite force, it's really bad that most dinos can just play games with them

[modest carbon]

[hexed elbow]

@cedar shore um.... I'm not on right now. Or a developer.... so I can't unboost a deino.😆 😆

[safe anchor]

still a wip no numbers are finalized

maybe they are waiting to make it stronger when more things come to the game

[nova olive]

Ok this is a small thing but while i agree with jelly butter's suggestion it has to be handled very carefully, the aim assist specifically. If there is an aim assist added, you should need to be verrry close to hitting your target before aim assist kicks in, and it should prioritize by which animal is nearest or perhaps even by species (aka if youre trying to blind a utah trying to attack you and your herd, even though a herd member is probably closer the aim assist shouldn't fling your camera over to the nearest target if it's say another hypsi or a tenonto, it should pick between the two and prioritize the predators). This is very complicated to do though, or certainly sounds like it, so if aim assist IS ever added it needs to be done * perfectly * for it to be worth it.

[limber elbow]

I think the devs wanted to avoid something like the absolute joke pot’s sarco was, where it was barely ever used in the water and a even match for other similar sizes

[cedar shore]

what? Im talking about your suggestion

bruh

[nova olive]

Jörmungandr with a capital J is prob the one you're looking for ^

[sinful cove]

so many people just wanna smash bite and kill lol even simple special hunting style deviations are too much i guess

[modest carbon]

big gator stronk bite one shot fight on shore

[sinful cove]

drowning stuff too hard

[modest carbon]

pssshhhhhh

[tender violet]

rn they get killed by stego soo easy they cant even 2v1 them a lot of the time gators have the most bite force of any animal not even to mention deino is a lot stronger then alligators

plus stegos can stand like right on them or range there tail so they can kill them so easy and when you do land a bite its almost nothing

[sinful cove]

dont hunt stego then, it can kill literally everything else. 2 deinos can take out a stego too it's happened

[modest carbon]

you shouldnt be trying to take on a stego on land

take their babies and run

[gentle schooner]

You dont have to kill everything you see

[sinful cove]

hitbox issues should be fixed, more deep water sources would be nice, but you dont need to hunt every single other dino

[tender violet]

but stegos can alos get you i nshallow water i was just minding my self in some shallow water on my way to nurs and got killed

@sinful cove tgat too

that

[sinful cove]

go in deep water

which there should be more of

but rn there just isn't just gotta wait

[tender violet]

the hit boxes and damg is super not right rn

[sinful cove]

we have like a 4th of the map open rn if even that, there will probably be more water sources coming and deino hype will die down as more stuff releases so it will be much more viable

[gentle schooner]

the damage is probably alright

[sinful cove]

the damage is fine, hitboxes are what is wonky

you are supposed to grab things at the shore and drown them

not snap them in half

[gentle schooner]

also its not the damage that gets you kills its the ability to drown things

[modest carbon]

deino dmg and steggie dmg is fine where it is, fix outstretched, wonky and broketh hitboxes and your problems will disappear

[sinful cove]

imo deino should also get fracture when that comes instead of a damage boost but i guess we'll just wait and see

[gentle schooner]

dude honestly carno's should also get a fracture

[sinful cove]

eh, carno is a small prey hunter

it doesn't need it

[modest carbon]

yeah they dont need it

teno on the other hand

[gentle schooner]

but they are literally ramming things at high speeds

[tender violet]

hit boxes are really bad yes worse then damg prob

[gentle schooner]

but tenos should also get that fracture

[golden coral]

And what they ram gets knocked down or stunned. No need for a fracture then?

[modest carbon]

yeah

giving ram fracture seems, too much for ram

[golden coral]

But technically everything could get fracture

[gentle schooner]

Yeah

[modest carbon]

thats true

[golden coral]

Just a matter of how many hits you'd need to get somewhere with it

[modest carbon]

teno tho 🦴 🔨

[golden coral]

Stego fracture! :p

[gentle schooner]

also maybe depends upon your weight vs theirs

[golden coral]

Do carnos actually knock around stuff now? Like, makes it go flying?

[modest carbon]

no they just, get frozen or flop to the ground

there is a little movement

[gentle schooner]

which is sort of lame

[golden coral]

Damn, need actual knockback, then I can be a happy stego if I get a proper swing! :p

[sinful cove]

if only we could get this

[golden coral]

Hit the dryo, see how far it flies!

[modest carbon]

AHFAHF

[golden coral]

Yes. That for stego tail swing please. Fight near water, just make the utah go flying into the water, see how that goes for it :p

[tender violet]

my utah is glitched and cant jump how do i fix this?

[modest carbon]

pounce

at the ground

[sinful cove]

i hope they let carnos and ankys and other blunt impact users the ability to sling small dinos into orbit

[gentle schooner]

just imagine how fucking destroyed youd be if you got hit by those horns

[modest carbon]

does ramming something bigger than you still just throw you to a halt and have no animation still

[gentle schooner]

i havent tried

[sinful cove]

try drinking, that fixes some of the movement bugs

dont trust my advice tho

[tender violet]

do you still need ot jump as utah to pounce?

[stark knoll]

nope

[lean shoal]

@alpine plover stego is not a psuedo apex, its a true apex. stego cant escape from predators so it will definitely be able to fight back.

[sinful cove]

if stego is supposed to be an apex one can expect its stats to dramatically improve in the future, i hope

i dont think it was supposed to be a true apex tho

[alpine plover]

really? it doesn’t really seem apex material? or at least not atm

[lean shoal]

im assuming that when larger predators are added stego will do more damage and possibly get a slight health increase.

[tender violet]

what happends if a utah grabs a bird while its flying

[sinful cove]

ptera just flops down

[modest carbon]

the bird falls to the ground or dies

[alpine plover]

It should. it is a stego after all

[lament cloak]

@alpine plover the game is not balanced around tiers.

[sinful cove]

if stego isnt fast enough to escape apexes though, it definitely shouldm't have to hope the rex attacking it is a bad player in order to even have a chance

[alpine plover]

so if a stego sees a giga it’s immediately dead? my point is that apexes shouldn’t be immortal. If a player messes up they should be punished

[sinful cove]

not worth 5 hours just to have a 75%+ chance of dying when a rex sees you

[alpine plover]

^

[lament cloak]

and stego does need to be at LEAST on par with rex, otherwise stego has to be able to out run it or its unviable.

[golden coral]

I'm sure every critter will be balanced to be able to survive 1v1, be it by running or fighting

Personally I would prefer stego fighting, but if they can make it outrun rexes and others instead, I'll take that

[sinful cove]

the slower combatant should have the melee advantage, not a 50/50 ideally

[alpine plover]

I’m not saying it should be good as Rex. I’m stating that stego should be able to fend off a rex. a rex could probably 2-3 shot a stego head wise

[lean shoal]

the way i see it stego should be very difficult to kill if approached from behind. all apex herbivores should need to be ambushed or hunted in a group of carnivores. if the carnivore is alone and dosent ambush the herbivore it shouldent kill the herbivore.

[golden coral]

I also would like both stego and anky as apexes so there's not just things fighting head on, but a choice or two for a different approach up there. Since we have kentro as a small/"mid" something, depending on how that's done.

[sinful cove]

deterring an apex tempoarily is kinda just delaying your demise if we end up getting an endurance apex again

[alpine plover]

Stego by all means shouldn’t be immortal, however it should have some defensive capabilities with things stronger than it

[lean shoal]

why wouldent 6 ton stego be an apex?

[golden coral]

To be fair, stego is on the "weaker" side

[tender violet]

can utahs ride deinos in water?

[sinful cove]

you can ride in its mouth when it grabs you

[golden coral]

It's more along the lines of acro, though it was plenty powerful in progression, but then it was the end of the line, acro was not.

[lean shoal]

how? stego can reach over 180 degrees around its body with lethal spikes.

[tender violet]

can we pounce them in water?

[lean shoal]

only time stego was good at all in prog was when it could trade with every apex predator except spino.

[lean shoal]

pounce dosent work in water.

[alpine plover]

it’s apex material definitely, but it isn’t that much of an apex where you would put it on the same tier as the trio. stego is still pretty strong though

[sinful cove]

pretty sure you get disengaged pouncing on something under water

[lean shoal]

nor are theri or anky if were talking about weight.

[alpine plover]

all I’m saying with my suggestion is apexes shouldn’t be the big baddies that kill everything with a couple bites but rather use strategy to kill the bigger animals

[golden coral]

It's still relatively "frail". It's not a fighter in the same way a trike or something would be. A stego should not want to fight, so it should be heavy on defense and work on a "retreat" sort of. Even in progression that was still how rex matchup worked at times at least. Rex would threeshot you, you would threeshot it with bleed. So if the rex got the jump, you'd die even if you made it feel it, if you could "trade", the rex could still kill you, but it would die for it.

[golden coral]

I think new anky is big actually, heavier than stego by a decent amount. As is para for that matter. Theri is probably better to compare with, comparatively weak despite size and all.

Yep

[alpine plover]

how is that even

[lean shoal]

stego should stand its ground. its entire purpouse is to stand and fight, it cant chase anything down but nothing can get near it without significant risk.

[golden coral]

Anky is fat apparently!

[lean shoal]

new anky is smaller than the 5.4 ton one we had in legacy and stego is 6 tons in evrima now.

anky is likely to be about 4 tons.

[hollow canyon]

"New anky" refers to new ankylosaurus that is just now being described. It's estimated between 7 and 9t

It's not about anky in Evrima

[lean shoal]

was there more ankylosaurus fossils found?

[hollow canyon]

Hmmm... Nova has shown it to me, it's being described by Fadeno right now, the same guy who described Deinosuchus

[golden coral]

What Aken is saying. Anky irl was apparently a good deal bigger than we thought it was. And para is also pretty big I think.

[lean shoal]

para is about 5-6 tons.

for the largest species anyway.

[hollow canyon]

Idk about Para but neither Para or Theri are comparable as they are much faster animals that could outrun the apex carnivores.

[golden coral]

Yeah, anky is probably more powerful, though our game anky is.. weird :p

[hollow canyon]

So them being incapable of defending against these three is less of an issue

[lean shoal]

i kind of want theri to have mini stuns on its hits like that animation of beip slapping the ovi.

[hollow canyon]

Matter of fact I don't think either Para or Theri should be getting into a fight against any of the three apexes

[golden coral]

Para is fine with running, so that's all good

[lean shoal]

if an apex can land a bite on a theri it should be scarry for the theri, but the theri should be able to keep the apex away from itself.

also that anky skeletal has armored front limbs that are strikingly similar to out ankys sleeves but osteoderms instead of skin.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Theri is large or powerful enough to be going against an apex in an open fight.

[golden coral]

Theris can run decently well though, at least better than stego

Same!

[lean shoal]

you should not want to be slashed by theri, but the theri shouldent want to get bit by an apex.

dent bad.

superior

im fine with the rhino-like armor as long as anky is still functional.

our anky has a "bite me here" space.

having a concavity in a barrel shaped object makes it much easier to grab.

[golden coral]

Yeah, anky just being highly defensive and tanky, just outlasting predators sort of :p

[lean shoal]

one of my suggestions for legacy was for anky to have shant weight.

just double its weight so rex cant facetank it.

stego should deal a lot of bleed and damage per hit and be very difficult for an apex to approach from behind.

unless you get a head bite on stego it should be very difficult to take down.

[gentle schooner]

it would be something youd have to completely catch off guard

[golden coral]

Do a walking retreat sort of, just keep tail to predator, and do not let it get around you, outlast/make it simply have to give up or potentially take enough damage to die to bleed even if it kills you, unless there's like wallowing right there.

Give stego a weaker rearwards swing while moving, so you can keep the rex from shoving its head up your ass while you're going away :p

[lean shoal]

stego should fend off giga and spino easily. rex should only really have a chance if it can get to the front of it.

[golden coral]

And proper swing for the sides, so if it goes around, it needs to bait you, or at least try and make you hit the tail/side, so it can then quickly go in for the head.

[gentle schooner]

Giga's should be able to kill them, Spino's definitely not

[lean shoal]

why not just make stego stand and fight like trike but instead of charging and facing its attacker it faces away and holds its ground.

[golden coral]

Stego should be a safer approach than a trike, but still plenty dangerous to fight, just less risk of dying to it if you mess up a little.

[gentle schooner]

i feel like an ambush bleeder type of creature should have the best chances against a stego

[lean shoal]

that or a rex clamping down on its face.

[golden coral]

Both giga and rex should be able to hunt stego as well as other things, to more or less successful degrees, depending on their fighting styles and all.

[lean shoal]

spino is not really meant to hunt apexes.

[gentle schooner]

im not sure a trex would be able to easiuly to get to the head considering

the way stegs fight

[lean shoal]

its meant to keep them from damaging it but it wont be chasing them down and killing them.

[golden coral]

I don't know, with stego head multiplier, I think rex would do better with more raw damage over a bleeder vs stego.

[lean shoal]

once again, ambush or multiple predators. will make apex herbivore fights easier for the predator.

[golden coral]

Bleeder would be more for trike, where you barely want to go for the neck cause well, danger head right there

[tender violet]

how long does it take to grow utah

[lean shoal]

ngl, i kind of want rex to be able to grab trike by the hip or rump and fracture it or even overpower it.

[alpine plover]

unless you have a stego group of course

[stark knoll]

1.5hr

[lean shoal]

only way for an apex to kill anky would be flipping it (good luck with that) or getting its face.

[gentle schooner]

which most of the time stegos should be in herd

[lament cloak]

easy, it just fights them. sure its 3 tons lighter than rex (according to nova size chart) but its weapon gives it enough advantages so that it can fight. first of all its weapon is placed as far away from its weak point as possible (its head) so as long as the stego has the dangerous end alwasy facing the trex (which would be pretty easy with the evrima turning mechanics, you always have you obsurdly powerful weapon facing towards your opponent and your weakspot away. and second of all, those meter long spikes are gonna HURT

[alpine plover]

wonder how trike will turn out

[gentle schooner]

yeah, detering something with death of bleeding

every fight should make you think twice cause everything can hurt you to a point where something else will get ya

[golden coral]

Deter with sufficient threat. Deterrent themselves don't work so well in this game, people will kill you even if it puts them at 1% health, as long as that doesn't actually mean a whole lot of shit for you.

And I figure stego would kill a rex that keeps taking hits to the head, even a rex wouldn't like more than 4-5 of them most likely.

Just that it would only take the rex 2-3 head bites to kill the stego, so it has the advantage

[alpine plover]

wallowing 💪

[golden coral]

I don't think wallowing will save you if the bleed is bad enough

[gentle schooner]

it shouldnt

[alpine plover]

If it’s bad enough yea, then again it’s entirely the rexes fault for getting that much bleed in the first place. stego shouldn’t be a pushover

[lament cloak]

its like trike v rex. the trike is 1 tons lighter (according to nova size chart) but its weapon gives it plenty of advantages, such as protecting its its weakspot (neck) with its frill and... you know, the giant spikes protruding from its face. weapons can mean alot in combat.

look at shant for example, 5 entire tons heavier than rex, though a rex could still take it down you know why? because its a video game! and also because it has nothing going for it besides weight

[golden coral]

Im pretty sure shant goes "choo choo" and rex just steps aside or goes down :p

I hope shant gets some sort of trample/knockdown on running. It decides it wanna go somewhere, you move aside or become flattened :p

[tender violet]

how many head buts and bites for carno to kill utah

[lament cloak]

weight can only give you so much, look at humans. we are tiny and pathetic but once we build tanks that brachi over that was about to stomp us better just... try blending in with the trees? (yes ik tanks wont be in the game but the point is weapons can often be more useful than outright weight in a fight)

[tender violet]

my itah fell doesn a acrack and is stuck what do i do?

utah

[lament cloak]

wait till you starve/dehydrate to death. nothing you can do unfortunatly

[tender violet]

dang

that seems cruel XD

[sinful cove]

you can try safelogging and coming back but

[tender violet]

i tried that XD there is no way out

[alpine plover]

evrima

[tender violet]

the faxt that a stego can 1 shot utah and deino takes like 3 hits is so retarted

fact

[sinful cove]

to be fair stego plays on the defensive and has no choice but to defend while deino is a predator who can grab the utah and sentence it to death by drowning and be safe from utah in the water. but yeah it's sorta dumb that a deino can bite the face of a 1.5hr grow animal way faster than it and that animal can just run off without a care in the world

honestly utah should have his health reduced a bit and deino should have fracture, what one shots utah will still oneshot it and deino can fuck it up with a front bite too

you practically already oneshot it with your lunge grab though

[crystal wharf]

deino doesnt need a biteforce buff, fractures will help it immensely in terms of attacking prey, utah also doesnt need an hp nerf, its fine as is, deino players need to lunge more and stay in areas where they can, deino also just needs its hitboxes fixed though

[tender violet]

wdym fractures?

[stark knoll]

https://trello.com/c/ODbi3yvf/24-fractures

Trello

Fractures

Snap, crackle and pop! Fractures are going to be splintering their way into the game. Gone are the days of the so often infuriating bone-break mechanic of old that was in many ways, an automatic death sentence. Fractures have a range from mild to severe. Hindering your character accordingly. But also have more ways to be both applied and mitigat...

Labels

Not Started, Mechanic

[tender violet]

also yes it does its stupid that it would not 1 shot a utah also needs to be able to defend its self from stegos and other htings

[stark knoll]

we dont know if deino will get them, but its possible

[sinful cove]

it should be able to defend itself from stego by going into deep water it doesn't need more combat capabilities in shallow water or on land to combat them

[tender violet]

still unless deino deals massive fracture damg to every thing inclouding stego i wont be happy with its damg

[crystal wharf]

it can defend itself, and if it 1 shots utah then it will decimate everything else

[sinful cove]

same with carnos and utahs, just go into deep water

rn even juvie utahs can kick deino's ass

[tender violet]

@sinful cove ya thats retarted!!!!

[crystal wharf]

okay, now you are getting a bit extreme here, just use the lunge to kill prey

[tender violet]

also there is not a lot of deep water

[stark knoll]

thats an entirely separate issue that i can agree on

[sinful cove]

yeah so more deep water and more water combat capabilities are what it needs

[crystal wharf]

juvie utahs can kick deinos ass because its hitboxes arent great, and a lot of people dont use the alt bite

[sinful cove]

it is trash on land and that's how it is supposed to be

[stark knoll]

the whole map is a wip though, and deinos areas are much more restricted so the small map feels even smaller

the only issues deino has rn are hitboxes and weird rivers imo

[tender violet]

they need to give deino a bit more damg and to fix its hit boxes

and to much shallow water

also it needs to do a lot of fracture when it comes out and maybe lower stego damg

[sinful cove]

deino doesnt need more damage he just needs better utility and more water

he isnt supposed to kill with flat damage

[stark knoll]

stego definitely doesnt need a damage nerf either

[sinful cove]

he has a very special hunting style

some people dont seem to like that but they can move back to their dps predators

[tender violet]

side note do you grow faster with more food and water? my utah was starving and a ditch and did not grow much but with food and water seems faster

[stark knoll]

dont think so

might be a thing with diets

[tender violet]

diets?

[sinful cove]

diets will apparently make you grow faster or grow much slower if you mess it up

[stark knoll]

heres the roadmap https://trello.com/b/G5tsb4XI/public-roadmap

[sinful cove]

dinos have preferred food and will be rewarded or punished for how they follow them

[tender violet]

that seems dumb thata if you hunt somthing you would mess up your growth

[sinful cove]

dont think predators get punished much or at all for what they hunt

aside from eating rotten shit or something

[stark knoll]

maybe cannibalism too, maybe

[tender violet]

hmm well they need to hurry and fix dieno hit box and water problem

[sinful cove]

well to be fair thats what qa is for after all

im sure they know about it and are working on it

[tender violet]

sigh evrima just has a lot of problems XD

like the black hole cave

[sinful cove]

make enough blood sacrifices to the suck hole cave and the isle gods will fix all the bugs

[tender violet]

maybe they should make it so if somthing is to big to grab as dieno you like latch on a limb and if you have enough deinos pulling you can drag in water lmao that would eb cool

XD

deino strat of hunting does not even work rn there are so many shallow spots there is countless places pray just goes to drink where dieno cant sneak up

also side note what happends if you pounce on a dieno and it walks in water or if you pounce it while its flouting in water

[sinful cove]

from what i can tell, if it goes into the water while you are pounced you are disengaged

[tender violet]

oh

[sinful cove]

so probably the same thing if you pounce one that is already swimming

[tender violet]

what if you grab a carno with a utah on it? XD

[sinful cove]

well damn good question lol

wonder if you could grab a carno carrying a dryo body

[tender violet]

lol if i had friends i would test it buuuuuut

lol

does any one else sling shot a lot as utah?

how long does the throw up thing last

[vapid fable]

@crystal wharf they already tried giving utah pounce at earlier growth stage but it was too buggy and created like 10 more new bugs, so they said for now that's not gonna happen but they'll explore that in the future

[whole gust]

@summer lily

I completely agree. I've had so many instances where a utah has pounced my tail as a stego or my face as a teno and simply teleported to the side of my dino. Both those times happened when I was attacking too. Attacking at the right time rarely interrupts the utah's pounce, at least in my experience. That should be looked into as well.

[crystal wharf]

where did they say this?

[stark knoll]

there was a brief period in evrima where you could pounce at 85% up, but it was removed

[vapid fable]

^

to be fair a pack of utahs can already kill everything in the game, 2 utahs can reliably kill a stego, i don't think utah needs a buff

heck, you can even solo a stego as a utah if you know what you're doing

[crystal wharf]

im not really saying to buff utah, just level the playing field among the carnivores with their special abilities

and having young utahs burn stamina like a mad man while pouncing makes them much less effective than the adults

[tender violet]

@vapid fable how would 2 utahs kill a stego? you can run through them and they 1 shot

[stark knoll]

they do it often

even solo utahs kill stegos

[sinful cove]

2 pounces bleeds stego like a water balloon

Its actually kinda ridiculous lol

[tender violet]

@sinful cove ya but by the time you have got stam baack from first pounce they will be covered with mud and ran off

also they will kill you the second you jump off from the pounce or even on

[sinful cove]

If that were the case, it wouldn't be happening

[modest carbon]

It's a bit stupid that pouncing at the front of an animal just zips you to the side of the torso, its a good way to avoid getting hit and get behind teno attacks without having much fear of taking dmg

[sinful cove]

Socketed pouncing is basically the game handholding in utah's strongest attack

“You pounced the wrong spot? Don't worry buddy i got ya” ~socketed pounce mechanic

[modest carbon]

Yeah, nasty cuz it does so much

[tender violet]

@sinful cove so then how does it work? how do you pounce on a stego and then do it again while you have little stam and they can just hang out in mud

i just dont see how you could do it with 1 utah

[sinful cove]

They cant complete their wallow then because you can just bite their face while they try lol

[tender violet]

but 1 pounce does not bleed them out

so they dont need to wallow yet

[sinful cove]

I said 2 pounces does

[tender violet]

ya

[golden coral]

@tender violet You pounce at the same time, one of you will get off safely and the stego will now have massive bleed, and the one that got off can harass the stego until it dies

[sinful cove]

A single utah can off a stego with proper use of baiting too

[tender violet]

@golden coral only 1 gets off safly? so one always died

[golden coral]

If you're good, time it right, and all, you could survive with a tailbase hit

[tender violet]

well stego always 1 shots utah

[golden coral]

Assuming the stego manages to time it's hits correctly and catch you, then yes, one of you will die, but the stego at that point is already bled for what you need

[golden coral]

No, only on body and head, you can survive a base of the tail hit, and most certainly a tip of the tail hit

[tender violet]

there is locatinal damg?

[golden coral]

Yes

[tender violet]

locational

so if it takes 2 pounces to kill stego how many does it take to kill carno

[whole gust]

What happened to my teno could've been lag or just bad hitboxes. All i know is that on my screen, the deino only bit my tail lol. I'm willing to chalk it up to lag. I was playing dryo once and on my screen, a utah chasing me was about five feet away when it bit and killed me.

[alpine plover]

@summer lily possibly technical difficulties.

If that wouldn't be the case, they wouldn't remove it.

Or the fact that usually latching on the head/tail looked straight up horrible and the only way pounce didn't looked like a joke, when you hit the side of the animal with it.

[golden coral]

No idea, might take only one, or two, no idea how many it takes for tenno either, but Im sure when the update is out, people will test and find all of this out!

[vapid fable]

@whole gust teno maybe, utah no, utah takes 1 and a half hours to grow and can kill stegos reliably, its basically an apex at this point

[whole gust]

^ I agree

[shadow rivet]

stego should be able to blind other dinosaurs if the stego gets the eyes

[sinful cove]

Idk man if a stego hits you in the eyes with its ass swords it should just deal epic crit damage, no reasonable way to attach a blind to it imo

[golden coral]

Yeah.. I don't think at that point it'll be anything less than spike going through head and that's it

[sinful cove]

How would the blinded dino recover? You aint wiping your popped eye goop off on the ground and getting better like with hypsi spit and it working like that would just look silly

Permanent blinds would also be terrible and make people just want to throw their whole dino out

[shadow rivet]

that is the thing it is not permanant

idk how it is gonna heal tho

[sinful cove]

Would be kinda a death sentence too to the victim, may as well just give them straightforward mega oof damage for getting impaled through their face

[golden coral]

I'm not sure I see a need for it, like it'd be a very touch an go hit, that wouldn't actually just kill them or cause severe damage and bleed anyway?

[shadow rivet]

true, but there is realism, right?

[sinful cove]

Being blinded and entirely at the enemy's mercy sounds pretty miserable

To an extent

But balance does come before realism

Balance and enjoyability

[golden coral]

Well yes, but game and balance comes before realism

[cursive kiln]

I'm guessing the pteradon being able to become almost full adult without eating will be tweaked after or before it's release in the official patch?

[summer lily]

Probably not

[cursive kiln]

I don't see it as super broken seeing how ptera is basically just a camera with wings. just found it odd.

[summer lily]

Just like Dryo, Hypsi and the other small Dinos so far, they just don't need to eat often.

I personally don't think it'll be any fun needing to keep feeding a small Dinosaur as it grows. There's no reason for a small Dinosaur to need to eat more, gameplay wise, than a large Dinosaur due to the fact it has a faster grow time.

People won't play the small Dinosaurs if they are high up-keep with voracious appetites

[cursive kiln]

you right

[summer lily]

@vapid fable thankfully mixpacking restrictions are enforced on private servers

[vapid fable]

can't wait for patch to go live

[summer lily]

I can wait

I want them to fix Ai spawns damnit

[vapid fable]

oh i just want a no mega packing and mixpacking server

[tender violet]

wtf when a teno slams its tail it like flattends you? so you cant move and it just keeps slamming its tail down and you just are laying there and cant get up?!!

[vapid fable]

no you can get up after the first slam

[summer lily]

If they release the update as it is now, without ai, people are not going to be able to sustain playing on servers without 100+ people. So when the hype goes down the player population will die again because it's impossible to play on small population servers without AI

[vapid fable]

get up and run away

[summer lily]

Yeah, this ^

[vapid fable]

yep, right now most of the ai are fish

[tender violet]

@vapid fable i tried but each time i started to get up he slammed tail again and i got flattened again

[vapid fable]

what dino were you?

[tender violet]

utah

[summer lily]

That's not possible. There's a large window where you cannot get chained stunned

If this happened then it is a bug and you need to make a report

[tender violet]

well i did i started getting up then he slammed again and i went down

i was not recording

[vapid fable]

that's weird

surprised he didn't kill you tho lol, tail slam does a lot of damage

[tender violet]

he did

...

he just kept slamming me down till i died

[vapid fable]

[summer lily]

Maybe message Hypno and explain that you were chain stunned and couldn't get up, and that you do not have a recording of this bug. Then he can get the QA team onto trying to recreate the bug so they can fix it

[vapid fable]

all of the special abilities are a little buggy

you can stun a utah with a carno charge but sometimes they can't be hit while on the ground prone

and we all know the time when pouncing gets you stuck on a tree or mid air lol

[summer lily]

Yeah there should be no way you got knocked down back to back. There's like a 60 second window where you should not be knocked down again

[vapid fable]

^

[tender violet]

ya

well ya then glitch

[tender violet]

oof tenos are kinda made for utah killing once you pounce they can just buck you off and tail slam you and your dead

[summer lily]

Why hold on until you run out of Stam?

Just jump off before you run out of stam

[alpine plover]

Why even pounce as a Utah? Bite & dodge is effective at any age so long as you can out run your prey a little bit + pounce locks you down in a CC animation when you get off even if you manually jump off

They really need to smooth it out so if you have stam left when your pounce is done you can instantly run

[raven egret]

@edgy basalt the shift can be held and when released you stop sprinting. You don't need to just press it. No need for change.

[cedar shore]

All that they need to do is make the jump off faster and pouncing would be much more viable

[alpine plover]

The jump off feels okay to me, it's when you land and it's basically free for a Carno / Stego to hit you at least once that it feels bad

Unless pounce is adjusted you're just going to see the same Utah play as legacy, bait attack, bite, bait attack, bite.

[edgy basalt]

Try this while climbing high rocks and not to die..

[raven egret]

Why would you sprint while climbing high rocks

[edgy basalt]

@raven egret have u ever been climbing it? Y do u ask these questions?