balance-feedback-discussion

[viscid mica]

So real so real, I don’t really play apex’s often enough to care I vibe with mid tiers Alberto supremacy get my boy in game fr fr

[steel stag]

and our group of 6 Dibbles just got wiped becouse of a Dibble that teams with a group of 8 carnos that should be reportable

[worthy steeple]

so you’re saying 6 dibbles couldn’t kill 8 carnos and just one dibble?

one dibble is enough to kill 8 carnos, you had 6

[elfin night]

Lmao

[keen plover]

Tbf they never said all 6 were fg

[worn sentinel]

If they all fg that’s an easy win for dibbles

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

therealdamage justifying stunlocks again lol

too bad i cant downvote because he blocked me for the last time i disagreed with him lol

also "timing of multiple stuns" like there's any timing involved and it's not just free lol

[keen plover]

Lmao thinks it's a skill thing and not a flaw

[dusky surge]

i dont know why he justfies this

[keen plover]

Might think it's a unique trait to Trike or something

[dusky surge]

also watching that video, yea, the stego was godawful and VERY stupid, but it didn't deserve to be stunlocked. give the stego the ability to realise it messed up and run away, rather than just locking it in place and killing it

[warm flax]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/401481371249541120/1349595428634497087

being knock over cause the tip of the tail get hit by a trike is very frustrating

[golden coral]

@pale kindle You don't think it's a questionable thing that trike can do this to other trikes too, or rex for that matter? If this is how it goes for stego, would it not be the same in those cases, one knockdown, and now you're kind of done for, because you're not able to recover? And while you can just run as rex most likely, well, you're supposed to hunt trikes, and a fellow trike is your same speed, so unless you never plan to be near another trike that you don't know, you're always at risk of this as well.

[dusky surge]

nah bet you rex will have a really fast knockdown recovery anim because of course it will LMAO

[steel stag]

3 full grown one got a dc mid fight and one got supprise attacked by the Mixpacking Dibble while we thought he was friendly

i was i juvi and got yeeted of a cliff by the Bad DIbble

Tbh carni and Herbi mixpacks are just dumb and should not be allowed,

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message cheesy agrees

[crystal wharf]

gotta love real.damage latching onto a popular suggestion to try and make his godawful takes seem more relatable

[steep gazelle]

#balance-feedback message @dusky surge Of course not! Troodon will do 0.99 damage if he has his venom since juv, that's very op!

[dusky surge]

"you can run away from a trike", he says, knowing full well that a stunlock means you can't

trike already can flat out facetank SEVERAL powerswings by using the block

trike already can use sparring to effectively easily dominate the fight without even needing the stunlock

also when you get islecord to vote in favour of the stego, you gotta admit at some point there's a problem you aren't seeing

[iron tree]

💀

Carno can't and shouldn't hunt dibbles

Even 8 carnos would lose to a dibble if it has its back against a wall or a cliff

And 6 dibbles are basically untouchable

Only apexes can take them out at this point

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

i like most of these. my only issue with it is #8 but i dont think it would be that gamebreaking. seems complicated to design however

[worthy steeple]

same

[slim dragon]

#8 is the reason why I mentioned these mutations can only exist with the removal of meta ones

Because yes, Get extra combat buffs on top of your already existing combat buffs would be insanely OP

[dusky surge]

tbf, the idea of getting mutations for a short bit at the cost of not having mutations for the mostpart is legitimately interesting

[regal valve]

They are all fire, but the #6 and #7 are questionable

[slim dragon]

That was my train of thought with the idea
You do get an insane buff after eating someone, but you're taking a mutation slot for it
Also you don't decide what buff you get

[elfin night]

@rustic fractal that’s too far dude

We really don’t need pachy permanently handicapping people

[rustic fractal]

itd be a good way to indirectly buff pachy

[elfin night]

Bro

[worthy steeple]

its a good way to completely break the game balance

[slim dragon]

It'd be a bad way to directly buff pachy

[elfin night]

It would be a good way to break the game and condemn carno players if the pachy wants too

[rustic fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/yummy-tongue-flight-flight-reacts-excited-gif-17057509

[elfin night]

Good way to turn Pachy into the ultimate griefer

Like, I grief a lot with pachy, but that’s just messed up

Giving someone a permanent speed or damage nerf is diabolical

Imagine being a juvenile cera and the pachy just decides to leave you alive but with a fracture to handicap your entire growth when you had a good shot

[rustic fractal]

just remove self stun from pachy and make it be able to stun ceras

[elfin night]

No

No stun for ceras. Agree with the self stun tho

At least when it misses

And then maybe hard code pachy to not get slowed down or pinned as easily by omnis and then a slight speed buff

Done, pachy is now more or less a B+ tier dinosaur

[worthy steeple]

i’ll be honest i’m not a big fan of pachy buff until they rework the bone break mechanic and how it affects the dino.

for some dinos 1 headbutt makes them completely useless, not letting them to use their attacks even for the self defense.

also inability to run away from the pachy.

pachy really shouldn’t be a hunter, bonk should be great defensive ability, not offensive

[elfin night]

Not really

[worthy steeple]

yes really

[elfin night]

Teno and carno absolutely roll pachy if they are not unaware

And even photo tissue pachy is something you can easily evade as anything smaller than those

And cera can take a full ram and then roll pachy

If you get bonked by a pachy as a sub carno, dilo or omni and then get run down it is absolutely your fault

And it is warranted for the pachy to finish the job after a successful blow/ambush to make sure you won’t come back to bother it again

[worthy steeple]

one headbutt is enough to kill a carno, i think you don’t realize how strong pachy is even now.

bone break for teno means inability to tail slam/kick/alt attack

[elfin night]

Bruh

[worthy steeple]

after a bone break you loose stamina really fast, and you can’t heal the fracture without sitting, which means you probably not going to survive that

[rustic fractal]

yes stun for ceras

[worthy steeple]

no, stun is bad

[elfin night]

Even with leg break carno can still trade with pachy

[worthy steeple]

stun on bone break is fine, but not stun every time

[elfin night]

A single pachy cannot kill a carno reliably

[rustic fractal]

im a pachy veteran im pretty damn good and i still die often

[rustic fractal]

tbh i got pretty damn close

[elfin night]

And then again, carno and teno can see the pachy coming and slam it

Or just get away if there’s multiple

[worthy steeple]

true, but what stops me from following it and not letting it sit?

[rustic fractal]

i had like 10% health left tho

[worthy steeple]

well i can slap that pachy, that’s for sure, but 2 headbutts is enough to make me almost completely useless

[elfin night]

And so did I because I play pachy a lot. But fg carno is out of the menu unless I am in a server where congenital hypoalgesia has higher reduction of damage

[worthy steeple]

so if you got a pachy pack running after you there’s really nothing you can do

[elfin night]

Don’t let it headbutt you two times then

[worthy steeple]

how

[worthy steeple]

it’s basically the same as saying don’t let dilo bite you during night, skill issue

[elfin night]

Carno is faster and can cc Pachy just fine. Don’t be unaware and you will be good

And then teno can just swim away or parry the pachy with a tail slam or a kick

[elfin night]

Yet Pachy doesn’t need to bite you once and isn’t 47kph. It needs to do an ability that has to charge up for a few seconds and missing leaves it exposed

[rustic fractal]

dude when pachy released it was the only thing i played, i got so good that i used to wrestle stegos bro

[worthy steeple]

doesn’t change the fact that is makes you useless after 1-2 headbutts

oh wrong reply🔥🔥🔥

[rustic fractal]

all good

[worthy steeple]

doesn’t change the fact that is makes you useless after 1-2 headbutts

fixed lol

[rustic fractal]

but i like that pachy used to be feared and fear is a real part of animals avoiding each other

[worthy steeple]

yes, but i don’t like the idea of bone break = you’re useless

[rustic fractal]

the neural deciding that if you decide to mess with a pachy and you end up broken up its all your fault

[elfin night]

Maybe you could add fracture tiers too

[worthy steeple]

it would be okay if they removed ability to continue to fight but didn’t remove ability to at least run away from the pachy.

i don’t like a herbivore being a hunter

[elfin night]

Nah, if you get seriously injured by a pachy as something smaller than a carno you just kinda deserve to die

[rustic fractal]

this

[elfin night]

And it is totally fine and in fact something I applaud that there is a herbivore that leans more into being a forward aggressor

[worthy steeple]

well if you’re that small then for sure, but not something teno size

[elfin night]

We have FAR TOO MANY defensive herbivores

We need more proactive ones and pachy is a great example of it

[rustic fractal]

do any of you have admin on some free admin servers?

[elfin night]

The only other aggro leaning by design might potentially be theri and that’s about it

[worthy steeple]

we got teno, the rest can be very effective offensively

[elfin night]

I agree. So fracture tiers could work

But something like a dilo or omni? Deserves to get run down and killed

[worthy steeple]

dibble or stego are more than capable of being offensive

[elfin night]

Nah

[worthy steeple]

that’s for sure

maia too, its very offensive

[elfin night]

Nah

Maia is mostly for running. You cannot be that offensive with that abysmal agility and when your strongest attack locks you in place

HT maia was offensive but not anymore

And I fear that the other two hadrosaurs will be the same

[worthy steeple]

maia is more than capable of being offensive wdym💀💀💀

[elfin night]

Thus leaving theri and pachy as the most forward offensive leaning herbivores in the roster

[elfin night]

If your target runs in a straight line, yes. But with that movement you’re better off running from things that cause you trouble instead of ambushing things like you can do with pachy

[worthy steeple]

use quad + biped switch and you will be very agile for the size

[elfin night]

Any competent player will just evade you. And I know that tech because I play maia and did play legacy carno that required you to use slow walk and sprinting all the time

[worthy steeple]

maias “poor agility” sounds funny to me, because i always hear that only from people who don’t actually play maia

maia is really agile if it wants to be

[elfin night]

I play maia and a lot

[worthy steeple]

well then you should know

[elfin night]

But anything in the roster other than carno or dilo can outmaneuver you without much trouble

@primal heart do we really need to give the same weight gain to every creature?

Also I believe it is largely fine for trike to get heavy early on but then taking a long time to hit proper apex size since that ironically makes it harder to grow with rex and other trikes around

I agree that it should be toned down and not hit 6 tons in 3 hours, but maybe it should hit that in like 4

Of course assuming they boost trike growth to 8 hours

[worthy steeple]

what people don’t realize is both deino and rex have their own ways to escape the predators.

in case of trike it’s too slow to outrun any of its predators so it gaining weight fast is actually a good thing.

even sub trike easily gets outrunned by anything

we will get allos and rexes capable of hunting trikes, what do you imagine will happen to subs or juvies.

[dusky surge]

imma be honest, pachy has always been a "good offense is the best defense" herbivore

[primal heart]

The final adjustment will definitely not be exactly the same as what I said.
But as a kind of animal similar to Dibble, if the Triceratops could grow to be stronger than Dibble in a more short time, then Dibble would lose its appeal. You can't expect that a slight difference in run speed would make players believe Dibble is better than trike.

[worthy steeple]

i mean yeah.. but i just don’t like that idea, bone break is just too op.

[elfin night]

It wouldn’t lose its appeal because dibble still remains as dibble. The appeal is a proportionally tanky yet relatively very agile ceratopsian

You could also buff dibble early on a little especially to accommodate younger rexes and allo instead of making growth for almost every playable a linear process

Like seriously

Even if they didn’t tone it down (which I think they should slightly), that plateau with rex around is going to be rough

[primal heart]

But if you spend same time on Trike ,it grows much bigger stronger and will keep growing.
Most player will chose Trike.

[elfin night]

If people want health and damage they will absolutely go for trike

[primal heart]

They will and should pay more time than dibble

[elfin night]

But dibble is vulnerable to giant carnivores for less time and that is a huge bonus because speed and agility are the most important traits in the game

Omni’s bite and stat gain is also vastly superior to that of troodon in the same time and under the same conditions. Doesn’t remove the appeal of troodon

Or should we make omni grow in 3 hours if raw stats are all that matters?

[primal heart]

There is a video on YouTube complain about trick take only 40 mins to have same weight and higher damage compare with dibble.

[elfin night]

And fresh spawn stegos can one tap fg troodons

[primal heart]

That's why I think troodon takes too long

[elfin night]

Numbers aren’t meant to be equal and the same for everyone

[primal heart]

So tell me if you want play a ceratopsia, which you chose.🥲

If you are a new player

[elfin night]

And I also think that you are severely underestimating this as part of the appeal.

If an adult rex pulls up or a pair of stegos appear you are forced to fight while dibble can get away and never be caught

[elfin night]

If I were a new player I wouldn’t be bothering with herbivores in the first place

And also that is not really a problem of a dinosaur

Dibble being less picked than trike in the foreseeable future doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with dibble

Just like how deino is so frequently picked by new players despite herra and carno being objectively far better picks

[primal heart]

Anyway if apex grow easier than middle size dinosaur,it's just not right.

[elfin night]

Yet it is vulnerable and apex fodder for 3-4 hours

That is not going to be easy

[primal heart]

But Trike grow to 6t too easy.it grow to 4t with out drinking once

[elfin night]

Okay then, increase trike’s growth time so it isn’t like 6 hours and instead 8-10, slightly tone down that spike (slightly, not outright making the growth even) and we’re good to go

[primal heart]

I grew an adult deino but found that I can't grab 24% Trike.

[elfin night]

You can make it so that 24% takes longer to achieve

[primal heart]

Yes exactly

[elfin night]

And then maybe make it so that 24% is like 2-2.5 tons

And 40% 4.5-5 tons

And we’re good, with a long plateau past 50% that makes trike challenging to grow since it is forced to stay for 3-4 hours running around with rex in the island

[primal heart]

I don't want to discuss the specific figures. I agree with your trend.

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage #balance-feedback message

you were doing so good till hypermetabolic

[analog mirage]

How come

[dusky surge]

speed boost moment

[slim dragon]

Ouch
Yeah the hypermetabolic inanition rework is ouch

[elfin night]

10% speed boost

55kph carno moment

50kph omni

[analog mirage]

I’m gonna change it to 5%, but Speed boost in the condition that you are starving and if you don’t find food you die

[elfin night]

44kph cera (RIP Pachy)

[slim dragon]

It's counter-intuitive (balance concerns aside) to reward players for failing at doing the very thing they're supposed to do in this game

[dusky surge]

Here's how I'd do Hypermetabolic Initiation mutation in a way that isn't a clear advantage

Reduce starvation damage taken by 50%

You basically get 2x the time to find food

[analog mirage]

I mean if someone is starving that already puts them at a disadvantage in fights, like I doubt a starving Carno wants to fight anything

[dusky surge]

And no advantage that feels awful to those fighting against you

[primal heart]

Better still, don't let yourself starve to death within just 10 minutes.

[analog mirage]

Starvation is a ticking bomb if you don’t find food, and fights are just really risky when starving

If you aren’t starving then the mutation just doesn’t work

[slim dragon]

Doesn't need to fight things when it can go after things less than half its size and outrun them
Also applies to cera

[dusky surge]

Yes, halving the damage taken by starvation would not only make it less impactful in a fight but also give you time to find said food. No unfair "oh that cerato just suddenly outran me guess I die"

[slim dragon]

Something being useless 90% of the time and OP for the rest 10% doesn't make it balanced

[analog mirage]

Hmmm

I guess it could be made just less hunger damage

[primal heart]

Seems that my deino will always have 5% more speed

[analog mirage]

[primal heart]

I think this shouldn't require a mutation.it's a common need

It's not right that only take 10 mins to kill you with no weight change, I should still have fat to consume.

[dusky surge]

starvation is fine as is

having a dedicated mutation would mean you have a choice to make depending on playstyle

[primal heart]

See started animal, they are thin as heel but still alive

They should have chance to thrive again

[elfin night]

I was thinking about writing a suggestion today for the animal specific mutations, since I believe balance feedback is probably the best one to do that and tbh mutations are pretty damn easy to develop. Literally just a number change when you select a certain square for the most part.

Here are some ideas (don’t feel like making up the definitive names now) although ideally it would be better to have 2 for every playable:

1. Carno: players except your own species under a certain weight threshold all give you diet

2. Hypsi: the spit has different effects depending on the last thing you ate

3. Beipi or Galli: you can open corpses with arm/leg claws to get the organs

4. Cera: when body buffed, pterodactylus flocks target nearby animals

[primal heart]

I quite like your idea, but I think devs won't listen.

[elfin night]

They wanted to add specific mutations

So I would be kinda throwing ideas to something already planned

[primal heart]

Then I wish you success.I really like your idea

[rancid sluice]

@hidden tartan When he rams a Cerato, for example, he always lands a headshot. On top of that, Carno can follow up with a bite and just run away. And when Carno charges Cerato, their models clip into each other—because of Carno’s height and the game’s janky hitboxes, the attack might not even deal damage. Honestly. Do you want to make the game even more of a mess? They can’t balance Carno properly, and playing as him trying to kill smalls is awkward as hell- and dmg will not help

[analog mirage]

Just boil it down to charge doesn’t need to be a damage tool. Let it be the knockdown tool

But actually improve the charge math

[rancid sluice]

@feral hazel Nerfing Cerato is understandable, but you can't just implement this change as is - it'll turn Cerato into complete garbage. You'll be condemning Cerato to certain death against Tenonto and making it useless when attacking Diablo or Steg. He will have to avoid them, but what about teno. Would a body buff help? No, it wouldn't - Cerato dies in 4 hits from Tenonto, and surviving 4 more hits wouldn't change anything. U will need to give Cerato complete stun immunity when standing on corpse so it can actually land a hit with its new turtle-like speed and force Tenonto to retreat, and this also will not help coz teno have more hp and dps and he have same speed so u will not run away, u could make teno puke and trey to run away but teno have stam mutation from dmg and trot is faster also. dunno. this just dosent working.
Cerato can't even sustain stomick by eating raptors for example, and nobody else will can reliably take down large targets - and they don't just die from old age so cera will starve or he will just eat other ceras. Maybe its not that bad btw. So an insane amount of changes would be needed to make this speed nerf work. I just wasted so much time deleting a comment where I detailed how Cerato's matchups against Diablo, Stego and Tenonto would play out. The short version? Cerato would get completely wrecked. We need a different solution.

[feral hazel]

Cerato has no business against a full grown Stego. Even Diablo should be something that it should consider as a last resort hunt.

Also, the speed nerf was just an example.

I mean the amount.

The point was that Cerato is broken due to its charged bite, so if something needs to be looked at, is its charged bite.

Be it slower movement speed during its usage or stamina consumption, don't really care. But when a bully/scavenger is the best hunter

Something is wrong.

[analog mirage]

I don’t think nerfing the speed while charge biting is gonna do much. They’ll still just run a dibble down until it needs to stand its ground, which case the charge bite speed nerf is redundant

Charge bite while powerful, isn’t the core reason to its success. That goes to its vomit snowballing effect. Where you vomit someone once and they just vomit over and over again after each bite

[hasty coyote]

Genuinely true about fractures, leg fracture is WAY too op of an ability to be given to anything with even the slightest amount of combat potential. Like yeah, you can trade hits with leg fracture when theres 1 pachy, but the moment there are 2 pachies you just die because you physically can not turn around to cover both sides. Like even now, people think pachy is strong because in a group they can mob down anything <2 tons, but solo they are still one of the worst playables. Not to mention future fracture dinos who will just have the ability to HALF your damage output with head fracture, imagine trying to kill an anky with only half damage, you would be doing literally 0 damage.

Also about pachy ram being defensive, thats literally the opposite of how the creature was designed. My dude was built to bonk first, ask questions while bonking. Low hp and a mechanic thats gets more useful in longer fights, pachy needs to hit first to ensure the payoff of fractures actually applies before it dies. Which means pachy is inherently offensive.

[analog mirage]

So all you really need to do, is just prevent bacteria from being applied to people who have already vomited. Hence it’s only gonna make a healthy player vomit,

The threat of a Cerato should be that you vomit and lose your resources, not that the vomit is gonna make you unable to fight back

[hasty coyote]

yeah I never understood the speed nerf angle because it does not really affect its hunting capabilities, but it HEAVILY hurts the survival of cera. A speed nerf does not affect its fights against things it outruns (aka the things it hunts), but it does impact the things it can not run from. So cera becomes a LOT more vulnerable to tenos and carnos, which just makes defensive scavenger worse and keeps offensive hunter about the same. So if you're nerfing speed, you're gonna have to buff charge bites defensive capabilities a lot to compensate

[analog mirage]

Basically

I just don’t want ceratos stats touched

[dusky surge]

i think slowing it down during charge bite is exactly what we need to do lol

[hasty coyote]

what does it solve?

[analog mirage]

Genuinely the only 3 things you need to do to Cerato is

1: charge bite deals the same bacteria as regular bite
2: charge bite has a small 2% stamina cost when you let go of the attack (canceling it doesn’t take any stamina)
3: you apply bacteria to healthy players

[hasty coyote]

I think 1 and 3 should be one or the other, both is a bit rough.

[analog mirage]

Fair, then 2 and 3

So really only those two things

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

@the.real.damage dibble hasnt been able to run backwards in sparring for months

[golden coral]

You can still walk backwards?

[vale brook]

yeah

but just not run

that was removed pretty soon after dibble went into EVRIMA actually

i kinda miss it but meh

[hasty coyote]

if you run backwards at an angle it still works, but yeah you can't back up quickly, which makes sense imo. It forces you to expose your flank if you want to maneuver quickly.

[worthy steeple]

i agree that pachy was designed to be aggressive and offensive, i don’t mind that, what i care about is how useless are dino if they’re bone broken.

imo break should make it harder for you to attack pachy, but at least be able to run/swim away, or alternatively still be able to stand your ground but not be able to chase pachy.

but current mechanic just makes dino free meal if it’s bone is brocken

not to mention you can’t heal if you don’t sit, which leads to infinite trolling

[cosmic pelican]

Um actually you can, just takes ages

And I do mean ages

Like 20 mins at least if you dont sit at all

[worthy steeple]

😭😭😭

[cosmic pelican]

Growing that troodon on eu4 now, fear the rats

[hasty coyote]

yes that I agree with entirely. Fractures should prevent being aggressive but not to the extent of making standing your ground or escape not an option. Imo, heres the main issue with each fracture and how they should be changed:

Body: no immediate effect makes it the weakest of them all. Could be changed to only lightly affect the stam drain of stationary attacks (like alts) but also reduce turn rate a good amount while sprinting.

Head: the damage reduction is way too much. Could instead make the damage reduction only like 30% for bite attacks and have the blindness decay while standing still, but in return cause the blindness to increase while sprinting and make head fracture cause your camera sway on its own. So if you chase someone you could end up entirely blinded and running into a rock or off a cliff, but have barely any affect while not moving.

Leg: probably one of the most op abilities in the game and def the strongest fracture by a mile. Speed decrease could be lessened to 25% reduction (since carno would now be slower than pachy with even an 18% speed nerf), most stationary attacks remain available, and most kick attacks cost 2x stamina instead of being disabled.

Essentially, make fractures not limit standing your ground by much, but make chasing something absolutely abysmal.

[worthy steeple]

that’s actually very fair!!!

i hope they do something similar, because the current system is too punishing..

[neon willow]

I really really like this and would upvote it if it was put in the suggestion channel... It would greatly support pachy's intended hit and run play style without making it horribly abusable

[hasty coyote]

I basically posted the same thing with minor differences a while ago #balance-feedback message

I may repost it since the devs recently talked about looking at pachy

[dusky surge]

@topaz elm already done on HT

[topaz elm]

Yay

[elfin night]

the hero of mobius rejected my clearly biased proposal

[dusky surge]

im biased to enjoying beipi how it is

i despise upsizing things for the sake of upsizing things. let smalls be small

[elfin night]

I like beipi a lot

[dusky surge]

beipi is one of my top played animals

[elfin night]

But having my beipisuchus limited to being a canni or going for local troodons is…

Pretty sad and limiting

I guess stubborn herras can also be bled out

[dusky surge]

i also think you underestimate what beipi could do to an austro lol

the bleed and damage lol

[elfin night]

Die

[elfin night]

Like, it would die

Isn’t austro practically omni size?

[topaz elm]

I would rather only have beipi be up to 100 - 120 kg instead of 140

[dusky surge]

no clue but beipi can mess up an omni that swims lol

[topaz elm]

Similar but austro is much more fragile

both are around 7 feet tall

But Omni is much much much more heavily built

[elfin night]

I know beipi allegedly does a lot of bleed and damage with the alt. But the alt is barely used, you only have 90 health and it’s hard on many things to keep up the pressure with bleed

You could even make beipi a little slower, wouldn’t mind

[topaz elm]

But isn’t beipi just supposed to take wild territorial swipes at anyone entering the river

Like it had that little sheet on it’s behavior

not really supposed to leave an attack

[elfin night]

I say allegedly because I cannot confirm many bleed kills with my beipi since I cannot reliably run after someone after hitting them, such as juveniles

[dusky surge]

not just the alt. regular swipes

[elfin night]

25 damage right?

That’s minuscule standard damage

[topaz elm]

I thought it was 40

[elfin night]

Even herra can trade with you and win

[topaz elm]

Since beipi two shots troodon and troodon has 60 hp its around 30-40 right?

[elfin night]

I hit them in the head so I dunno

[topaz elm]

I mean the whole thing with beipi is that so long as you as diligent you can get a free hit on most people

Jump out of the water, swipe, jump back in

I wouldn’t mind a slight beipi damage and size increase though

[dusky surge]

used to be before the buff

[cosmic pelican]

30 dmg ~80 bleed dmg per swipe

[dusky surge]

disgusting bleed yea

[elfin night]

If beipi had a lot more health, it would be hands down the strongest playable in the entire game

[elfin night]

I am afraid that despite my many hours, I don’t know how bleed works in terms of numbers in evrima. Is 80 really that good? What can I even achieve with that?

People kept telling me it’s great and the best but as said, at best I’ve only really bled out adult herras when I was playing with someone and we clawed it like 6-7 times

[cosmic pelican]

Most playables do the same bleed dmg as their dmg.
So for example a troodons bite does 15 dmg, and roughly 15 bleed, depending on your opponents vitals and movement speed.

So 80 bleed for an attack that does 30dmg is INSANE

[elfin night]

And what about the blood pool? That’s a hidden stat so I have no clue

[dusky surge]

same as weight always

idk if it has bleed resist

[elfin night]

Does that mean that if I whack something with 80 in the blood pool it irremediably dies?

Assuming it has no resist

[cosmic pelican]

Unless it sits down like imnediately, yeah

[dusky surge]

check it against a dryo. terrifying bleed

[topaz elm]

What is the blood pool for creatures? How do you calculate it?

[dusky surge]

weight x 1 = blood pool

lmao

[topaz elm]

Oh so it’s a second health pool lol

[dusky surge]

bleed resist is a different, altenative stat

[topaz elm]

And how do you calculate bleed damage

[dusky surge]

no idea

[elfin night]

Oh well, that’s brutal

So it can technically one shot troodons and it’s just that I never get to see it?

[cosmic pelican]

Yep

You can survive 2 swipes as a troodon though, but you have to keep sitting

And even then its very close

[elfin night]

Well

[cosmic pelican]

3 swipes from a beipi sentence a herrera to death

[elfin night]

I didn’t know about this power despite loving beipi and being a koser with it

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message i’m sorry, but 2.5% is too low for the fastest dino in the game..

[elfin night]

Most things I’ve killed just die of raw damage

Because I am that rabid

[worthy steeple]

do you know what’s the tenos bleed by any chance?👹👹👹

[topaz elm]

Tenos claw swipe does crazy bleed

crazy how a lot of creatures are better bleeders than the bleeders lmao

Omnis bleed is so ahh

[feral hazel]

Speed matters a lot in hit and run.

[cosmic pelican]

All I know is that its above average, I never tested it specifically because teno isnt worth my time. Donkey ahh

[hasty coyote]

there are like 5 different factors that affect bleed so its incredibly hard to calculate. Lower food, water, health, and stam all increase the time it takes to heal and thus the bleed damage you take. You also take more bleed damage per tick based on how you are moving. Like sprinting makes you lose ~4x as much bleed as sitting.

[topaz elm]

Interesting

[worthy steeple]

grrr

[half widget]

omni bleed is bantha poodoo and its because for some reason the devs think its a good idea to give omni a pin mechanic which is unfair for all parties & encourages nerfing it in other areas. why are they gravitating an agility based dino to be based around a mechanic that is purely based on strength??

the pin mechanic needs to be heavily reworked or straight up removed. as an omni player i absolutely hate it. it makes cannibal raptors a menace. it makes less people play galli. and it introduced the RNG based bucking system. it sucks so bad.

[hasty coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/true-feel-that-thats-true-gif-7410050725709839510

[topaz elm]

Omnis pin is fine

If there’s 5 450 kg animals on you, your legs give out
They shouldn’t be punished for using their mechanic properly

Bucking should be buffed so you can prevent that

Ohhh you meant solo pin, yes that needs a rework

my idea for it is that Omni needs to physically drag down prey that it solo pins, giving them Yk like 8-10 seconds to buck, kick and try and scrape Omni off before they are pinned down to the ground

This would have to rely on bucking actually working though lol

[lilac leaf]

i disagree with making omni faster than dilo because they are very balanced as is. omni is marginally slower but SIGNIFICANTLY more agile than dilo. speeding it up means it can outrun dilo, it can outpreform dilo, i'm pretty sure it already out stams dilo, dilos would have a hard time standing a chance. omnis also swim faster and have the ability to jump, if you don't want to die to a dilo as an omni.. just do anything that isn't running away from it in a straight line over flat terrain lol

[topaz elm]

Dilo should 100% run down Omni
Omni has the ability to jump and escape dilo completely

[half widget]

yes i was referring to solo pin. either way though, i think it is a bad mechanic.

i think if it were reworked it should absolutely be a temporary stun, similar to teno tail slam, or dibble knock down. or the pinned down dino needs to have some ability to escape the situation. it being a complete and utter death sentence is just unfun. and it is not satisfying at all for the omnis involved.

omni speed and agility is perfectly fine as is. its power, however, was completely uprooted with the introduction of the pin mechanic, i think the addition of lmb/rmb pounces was plenty of variety to their gameplay.

i love the dilo omni match up as it is tbh. mutations make it a little weird sometimes though

[topaz elm]

I’m all for the removal and reworking of the combat mutations tbh

[half widget]

ceras ability to infinitely gastro after a fight is unhinged

or during a fight if there are a large amount of them

[topaz elm]

Gastro should be a health regen buff not a straight health kit

25% boost to health regen after a fight

Maybe even during but no way just straight health back

[lilac leaf]

yeah combat and speed mechanics need to be removed OR made extremely situational. Like 5% speed boost after drinking water for 8 seconds.. something like that, not a consistant boost at all times. those mutations make the rest useless because to be viable you MUST be those mutations

[topaz elm]

Gastro turns the game into a fighting game tbh

[half widget]

yah its absurd. even other dinos can just overeat to puke and still heal to full

[topaz elm]

“Increased flight response” 5% movement speed increase for 10 seconds after being bitten or otherwise injured severely (body hit or headshot, no tail shot boosts)

[half widget]

i don’t mind combat mutations as a concept, but % based mutations are gonna get absurd with larger dinosaurs that have high magnitude base stats

like a trex with a 10% boost to bite force could be the difference between one shotting and not one shotting something for example

[topaz elm]

Yeah you gotta be careful with the things you suggest, they can’t really be raw extra damage or something, it has to be like something that helps out, but isn’t necessary

[half widget]

idk i personally wouldnt mind if all mutations were survival focused. or like niche secret mutations like the cannibal one. i think the combat muts in the current state of the game just exacerbate the already less-than-ideal balance present in the game.

omni for example, dmg mutations are nearly useless because a % increase to a bite force of 60 is hardly impactful. on a cera however… hemomania alone may allow you to need an entire bite less to kill than you would have otherwise because of how much more significant 5% is and how easily you can apply your bleed, which also stuns them and allows you to land more bites.

[topaz elm]

“Enlarged masseter” increases damage dealt to armor by 25%

Armor like Diablo or trike’s frill already block like 90% of damage, and if you are biting a frill chances are you are in-front of them… the dangerous end

This would make it so you can afford to make a silly mistake and somewhat trade
while still taking the full force of their damage

It allows something to say be a better armored dinosaur hunter per say but doesn’t invalidate the armor

Anky’s back armor for example, it’s gonna block like 90% of damage because you gotta bite his underside

90% of 1200 (Rex bite force) is 1080, so to an anky’s back I’m only gonna deal 120 damage

25% of 120 is 45 damage so now I do 165
Not too much but still better than it was before

[topaz elm]

Example mut

Math was wrong now I look dumb

I would do 150 damage, 25% of 120 is 30

Essentially turns a Rex bite into a Cerato bite to anky’s back

[half widget]

yah idk i dont have majorly strong opinions on mutations one way or the other.

all i know is omni pin was a lackluster addition that made the dino get nerfed in areas that it should excel in and made the gameplay significantly less dynamic as there is now little to no reward for utilizing your agility and are instead encouraged to manage the weight of your pack & point yourself at an object and right click it like a heat seeking meatball.

but i digress, i just hope it gets changed & the dino with the word “omni” in its name, becomes more dynamic.

[half widget]

lol math in these discussions is always just illustrative. don’t think you need to worry abt that

[topaz elm]

Bring back 510 kg galli

If Omni can pin galli, galli should be able to kick him to the ground

Seriously in a 1v1 what stops Omni from just holding rmb when galli gets close enough

[half widget]

nothing lmao. thats exactly the issue. and omnis can pounce eachother all the way to death by just pressing rmb and then walking away from their pc and making a coffee

[topaz elm]

Dynamic pinning
Like a spar lol
Let the pinned Omni press space to use 15% of its stamina and kick the Omni on top off (two toe claws to the sternum gotta hurt)

Also to force your crappy teammates off you to not get both of you killed lmao

[half widget]

bring back galli bleed, sure f it and make it heavier

give omni faster bites, remove pin, less run cost, more stamina drain if pounced prey is bucking, slightly better bleed

fix carno hitboxes, give it more weight maybe 1.5K kg

remove cera’s ability to puke animals in one charge bite, longer cooldown on using charge bite maybe, worse stamina OR faster hunger drain (that stomach acid that dissolves bones has GOT to dissolve its food faster, no?) maybe then we’ll actually see cera cannibals. its a corpse-bully. but right now its an apex hunter.

those are my unhinged, loosely stated opinions

[half widget]

truueee, this isn’t league of legends i shouldnt be getting stunned or dishing out stuns that are a life sentence

[topaz elm]

I’d just remove ceras bacteria on tail hit

[half widget]

that would be a significant change, i think it would work about as well & encourage them to be more precise in their use of charge bite.

i still would like to see the hunger drain though. cera has almost no incentive to cannibalize compared to deino which is always starving once fg

[hasty coyote]

That still is kinda game breaking as armored dinos generally rely on their armor which can entirely change a matchup and the armored Dinos has no way of knowing. You’re basically just giving the carnivore +25% damage against these specific dinos, which is pretty much the same as speed mutation allowing cera to outrun teno. Yeah the defender can prob still win, but the mutated Dino has an advantage which the defender has no way of knowing.

You look at stuff like Diablo and sure, it doesn’t seem bad. But if you look at stego or anky who may need that resistance to survive a Rex as they are balanced around having those resists, then issues arise.

[glass harbor]

@slim dragon #5 I don't think this should be a mutation, but I think gastro's should just naturally give this buff.

[slim dragon]

maybe
But gastroliths are already quite useful as they are, they don't need a baseline buff

[glass harbor]

true

[bright oasis]

I disagree on that. Gastroliths would be better if they had a buff to the time they were active. Boosting it from 1 minute to 3-5 and reducing the drain from 4x to 3x would work really well I feel.

[steep gazelle]

@meager nexus The problem is not in Maia's stun time but in the stun time that Carno suffers

[hasty coyote]

Stun times and stun immunity times in general seem broken so legitimate stunlocks are possible in some matchups

It ain’t specific to Maia or carno

[cosmic pelican]

sub maia can get stunlocked just as much as carno can, even on live

[topaz elm]

carnos stun is kinda of hard to balance because it cant do a push up on account of yk....

little noodle arms

[crimson crater]

#balance-feedback message cera prejudice is wild

global buff is bizarre

[slim dragon]

I cannot understand the reasoning of some people
"Carno stays stunned too long, nerf Maia's stun"

"Cera is too strong, buff everything else and don't touch cera"

Like

????

You got the problem right, why do you need to make a 180 and suggest the opposite of a solution for it ?

[half widget]

cera prejudice is reasonable. global buff is bizarre.

[half widget]

maia is super underpowered for its weight class too Imao. O turn speed on that thing too. i think what carno needs is a bump up in weight again closer to its original 1.8K kg, and fix its charge hitbox and it'd probably be quite well off.

cera needs some serious work to be balanced. it is the current apex hunter and it was intended to be a corpse-bully brawler. except its out there 3 shotting most of the roster with a ridiculous, often 1-tap stun.

i think a lot of the suggestions are just pisstakes because theyre angry that nothing is very balanced right now.

[elfin night]

lmao

[elfin night]

nah dont make carno bigger

it's fine as it is in HT

[half widget]

i don’t play horde, what’s it lookin like right now on HT?

also i didn’t mean all the way back to 1.8K kg. i just meant heavier than cera. like 1.5K kg or something.

[elfin night]

cera growth time, better bleed resistance, 20ish more seconds of stamina runtime

so it's good

and it doesn't need to be heavier than cera for any reason other than you wanting it to fight cera and other large animals

it performs extremely well as a carno

[steep otter]

Carno is fine now in HT

Cera needs a nerf in its hunting capacity

[elfin night]

so charged bite

that's it really. Some people really need to think about that

the only reason that cera can take out dibbles, some stegos, maias and other carnos with such relative ease is because they are allowed to pack a punch probably as hard as an allo or alberto should bite and for free

you limit charged bite and they can no longer go for big game as consistently

[dusky surge]

Absolutely underrated. HT carno might be an S-Tier animal in all honesty. A lot of it’s arbitrary weaknesses were removed, and its strengths buffed

[civic ocean]

@elfin night

[topaz elm]

what

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

8 ceratos not being able to take down stego is the most insane skill issue i've ever heard of

ceratos can solo stego, 2 of them can destroy stego

[keen plover]

Depends on the stego, terrain and if it has tactile

A stego without tactile is probs guaranteed to lose against 8

But a good stego isn't losing to anything less than 4 imo

[vale brook]

even with tactile, 8 ceratos should be able to do it

[keen plover]

Depends on the location tho

[vale brook]

not saying "should" but they should with how current cera is

[keen plover]

If you're losing in the open then yeah skill issue lol

But if it's camping a spot, why would you hunt it

[vale brook]

even with location, thats still a skill issue

[keen plover]

yea

[vale brook]

because who in their right mind goes "stego head in rock. i attack!"

[keen plover]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. Just bad plays all round

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

this is a lmao

dude's gonna lose his MIND when trike is added lmao

[keen plover]

tbf trike is more approachable than stego

but yeah same rage though. Big dino that will be tanky and deals a lot of damage

actually... you can survive a trike hit...

• gastro...

[dusky surge]

true. trike is more of an apex bruiser, stego is a little guy annihilator

also istg if we start having apexes die because mutation builds kick their ass, they HAVE to change it

all that hype to be beaten by a gastro cera pack LMAO

[worthy steeple]

cera makes rex vomit and then it dies because it can’t find any food in time lol

if rex alt attack not going to one shot anything teno size and below i will be very sad and upset

[steep gazelle]

when rex is added i hope the devs realize that the damage mutations need to be changed or removed. Rex with the damage mutations will do 1100 damage in bite xd

[dusky surge]

also, actually thinking about it, a movespeed nerf while charging bite would literally be ALL you need to fix cera's hunting. No joke

the REASON cera bite is so good is because it allows in-and-out burst without needing heavy commitment. You charge the bite while away from the slower thing, get close, hit it, then quickly retreat before they can react. It's exceptionally efficient, especially when big-game hunting.

By slowing cera down, it becomes an attack that is better used for waiting for small things to get to you. Slap on the ability to do a charged alt-bite as an ability, and now you have a defensive tool that punishes getting close, rather than an offensive tool that removes the risk of cera staying too close

charge bite has a similar energy to dilo's clones. you don't need to get close to increase your damage output, you can remain distant and only go in for a bite when necessary. Dilo clone is obviously far more extreme, but the point remains, it's damage gain without necessary engagement

[half widget]

yah thats what it sounds like tbh. not a fan of what i heard.

[dusky surge]

why not? its literally just a decent carno lmao

[rapid flume]

random idea, what if cera didn't get the body buff from the bodies of other ceratos

[topaz elm]

@cloud shoal 8 low end mid tiers vs an apex

stego is two entirely different classes above cerato

[dusky surge]

depending on who you ask, it's more than just 2 classes above lmao

[topaz elm]

we got
micro tier - hypsi, troodon, velo, ptera
tiny tier - dryo, beipi, herrera, proto, oviraptor, minmi
small tier - omni, galli, pachy, dilo, kentro, avaceratops, austro, mono, rugops
Low end midtiers - cerato, carno, bary, tenonto, megalania
True midtiers - allo, alberto, diablo, maia, sucho
Large tier - Stego, Theri, Quetz,
Apex - Rex, Trike, Giga, Spino, Shant, Cama, Anky
Untouchable - brachi

Conflictions:
magy could go low end midtier or true midtier, in its concept its around the size of cerato but its also a sauropod so i guess its around 2 tons maybe 2.5 tons
Para could go true midtier or large tier, para was honestly huge in real life about 5 tons (?) in legacy it was 3.6 tons but I can definitely see it getting buffed to large tier
Acro could go into apex tier with the size and weight buff and the ability to choke stuff out but I usually see it as a large tier, unable to compete with the true apexes (spino, rex and giga)
Deino could also go into apex or large tier depending on who you ask, 8 tons and a 500 damage bite are nothing to scoff at but it also can't really do too much to the other apexes, primarily hunting midtiers
Quetz may be iffy in large tier, I just put it there because i feel like its going to be capable of a ton really as sort of a glass cannon

[shrewd jungle]

where is homalo......
what did you do with my boy......

[solid wyvern]

Yeah. I still not getting why carnos charge consume stamina, but not ceratos charged bite . Seems like huge oversight

Only small thing about charged bite that it cancels if hold too long but this is hardly a punish measure for using it too much

[solid wyvern]

Move speed decrease with charged bite sounds silly. How jaw musculs can hinder movement? Just make it cost stamina like carnos charge - that makes more sense since usually special attacks cost stamina on most playables.

[solid wyvern]

Wait, where is acro?

Nevermind, I am blind

[slim dragon]

This is wrong
The official tiers are :
Tiny-small tier - hypsi, velo
Troodon tier - troodon
Very tiny tier - ptera, hypsi
Small-medium-tiny tier - Dryo
Small tier - Omni, herrera, galli, beipi, homalo, minmi
Big-small tier - Dilo, Utah, pachy
Small-medium tier - Cera, carno, bary, ava
Medium-medium tier - magy, camara, kentro
Mid tier - Allo
Medium-pseudo-large tier - Alberto, dibble
Pseudo-large-medium-large tier - Sucho, theri, hypsi
Definitely not apex - Deino, stego
Apex-pseudo-apex - Acro, Anky
Apex - Tyrannosaurus, Trike
Medium apex - Giga, Spino
Large apex - Shant, hypsi, Brachi
Other - Quetz, Titanoboa, Taco, Teno, Austro

[dusky surge]

put titanoboa in snake tier

[slim dragon]

I would if it was my tiers, but it's the official list

[dusky surge]

i also like how austro and teno are arbitarily unclassified

[solid wyvern]

Where the heck mono?

[dusky surge]

smh no rugrops either scam list

[solid wyvern]

Wait, why camara is medium?

[dusky surge]

lmao

just you wait till you see large apex

[solid wyvern]

Ok, it's obviously a rage bait tier list

[dusky surge]

its not ragebait brother its just a bit

[solid wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-bait-ragebait-angry-gon-bait-gif-5270896389597269350

[dusky surge]

it's literally making fun of the stupid tiers and lists people make up

like "pseudo-apex"

[solid wyvern]

I mean tiers is figurative classification for people to destinct weight classes in this game

Even if there obviouly lots of transitionary animals like megalania, kentro (may be), sucho, theri, stego and etc

[slim dragon]

Undefined

[elfin night]

@cloud shoal not only that was a gargantuan skill issue from the ceras, but also…you aren’t meant to hunt stegos as a cera? It’s not even the best matchup you could have, and that is further accentuated by the fact that you are fighting a 6 ton animal built around doing high damage quickly as a 1.3 ton (mainly) scavenger theropod

And it does have blind spots lol

Just wait until Rex and Allo come out

And stego might need a buff if anything lol

[worthy steeple]

lmao im stealing this gif

[crimson crater]

isn’t homalo smaller than dryo

[elfin night]

Yes

And taco deserves its own tier

[crimson crater]

the hell is it doing in the “small tier” category

[dusky surge]

read the whole list lmao

the fact y'all are taking this serious is exceptionally funny i'mma be honest

[crimson crater]

i’m not tho

curiosity

[elfin night]

It is factual information

[slim dragon]

Don't ask me, ask the devs who made this official tierlist

Size isn't everything
Even if we're talking about size

[crimson crater]

yea

[crimson crater]

kinda is though, that’s like putting carno in mid tier

[slim dragon]

No, mid tier is for allo only
Because allo is mid

[elfin night]

https://tenor.com/view/pirate-writing-blackbeard-feather-writing-heresy-gif-4408192544333034740

Couldn’t agree more

Allo is going to be an endless pit of mid

The true slopsaurus

[worthy steeple]

hm.. when i think about mid tier or apex i usually think about current roster, not the one that planned, like for me teno and cera are mid tiers currently, i just somehow refuse to call the biggest carnivore in the game small tier😵‍💫

[elfin night]

That’s so cheesy of you

[worthy steeple]

stego is obvious apex, but ofc if we had complete roster it wouldn’t even be close

[slim dragon]

Cera is in a quirky situation right now where it is both a small tier and an apex

[worthy steeple]

it’s small tier compared to the whole planned roster, in the current roster it’s pretty big

[dusky surge]

i despise cerato's size because it's too big to be a small tier and too small to be a midtier and i'm not calling it pseudo-mid

im out of options

[worthy steeple]

cerato tier🤩

[dusky surge]

no but teno and carno are also in said tier so it makes it worse

[worthy steeple]

what tier are we taking about? i missed the conversation before

nvm i see, but do tiers even matter lol? like how can someone argue over that, literally doesn’t affect anything.

call cera mid tier, semi mid tier, small tier or apex, doesn’t change anything

i will call herrera and beipi an apex and no one will stop me

[topaz elm]

Anky is 100% an apex or will be in the apex tier in evrima

The pure damage plus armor and changes to bone break

Anky will practically be unkillable and that’s the point

Wait in slow

[elfin night]

[topaz elm]

sorry

[elfin night]

That list is bait

Bruh

[topaz elm]

I’m very easily baitable I’m ngl

very strong opinions here

[elfin night]

Large apex - Shant, hypsi, Brachi

[topaz elm]

I didn’t read that far…

I saw it then I realized wait a damn minute

[half widget]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1354432400431775894 I agree with most of this, I definitely am frustrated with the overall state of Cera's power right now though. I do think it could benefit from some changes to its hunger/diet in order to incentivize it to cannibalize similar to how crocs have a massive hunger drain once FG. I think Ceras should get some of that treatment to either their diets or hunger as well, which would encourage them to head to nearby corpses and "bully" more often as well as potentially kill packmates once they start to starve.

[topaz elm]

I probably should’ve realized at troodon tier ngl

[elfin night]

Pseudo-large-medium-large tier: sucho, theri, hypsi

Also the naming conventions are hilarious

[dusky surge]

just make cerato slower while charging bite

i guarantee you it will solve most of its issues no joke

[elfin night]

Yes!!!!

Also give the slide back

[topaz elm]

@elfin night a lot of people are mad about Cerato because it’s nearly perfectly designed for what it’s intended to do

A few tweaks to charge bite would be awesome

[elfin night]

Done, now it cannot punch like a damn Berto

[dusky surge]

no slide.

screw the slide

[topaz elm]

“Well it’s not easy to fight as Omni!” Yeah it’s supposed to bully everyone in small tier

Packs of them are supposed to be so annoying Rex just gives us a carcass

[elfin night]

Yeah, exactly my point.

Cera is fine but I am afraid its unfortunate placement (which led to overpopulation since the biggest carni is also the easiest to grow and use) led to so much hatred

[elfin night]

Especially carnivores lol

[topaz elm]

I’m watching AS SOON as allo or Rex drops we will not see nearly the amount of Cerato we see now

Everyone wants the new big bad

[elfin night]

I think that too. They will banish

[topaz elm]

then gets gored by trike lol

[elfin night]

Although tbf I will play Rex too. But the overpopulation kind of scares me. I hate playing the thing most people use

[elfin night]

[dusky surge]

genuinely the slide is just another pachy selfstun. it sucks on pachy. dont give it to cera

[topaz elm]

I honestly wouldn’t be mad if things like trike one shot Cerato

Just in my personal opinion, I played a ton of legacy and if you got in-front of an apex you got one shot (not even in front most of the time for Rex lmao )
but like imagine if you are trying to hunt a trike as Cerato and you hear your friend get hit, then he’s just strung up on its horns lmao

the idea of fragility needs to be reinstated to diverge the game from a dinosaur fighting game to a survival game

[elfin night]

@half estuary im gonna block you so you don’t downvote my suggestions ever again /j

[half widget]

idk carno and cera being the same size is weird. i think cera needs a lot of work, more than just a slow to their charge

[elfin night]

Trike practically one shots cera already.

Not even fg, you can knock it and impale its head.

[elfin night]

Why. There’s nothing wrong with carno being the same size. They are in different niches

[topaz elm]

I prefer larger carno because of the larger mid tiers, carno has very few options when it comes to hunting fully grown dinosaurs
What happens when carno uses half of its stamina to catch something and it just gets stolen

Carno has the cheetah niche currently so I believe personally it needs the size to take as much prey as it can get before it inevitably gets stolen by a better brawler

[elfin night]

How do you waste more than 30% stam killing something like an omni or pachy

[dusky surge]

"What happens when carno uses half of its stamina to catch something and it just gets stolen"

"Carno has the cheetah niche currently"

Doesn't that mean carno is very accurate to the cheetah niche lol

[topaz elm]

there’s usually yk more than one and they are pretty fast

Played more than a few games of ring around the rosey

And I’m talking about things like tenonto or Diablo
Carno uses a lot of stamina in those situations

Omni and pachy get mauled

[dusky surge]

not atm lol

in HT it's insanely stam efficient

[topaz elm]

Oh really? I haven’t grown a carno in the HT

[rapid flume]

did they change its hunger at all?

[half widget]

which is fine, but it shoulda kept its poor bleed resist and gained some weight imo

[topaz elm]

1,400 - 1,500 kg carno?

[half widget]

yes

[elfin night]

It is very good now. Like solid A tier

[topaz elm]

Doesn’t sound too bad tbh

[dusky surge]

nah. i like removing the poor resist and actually keeping the weight

the poor resist was lame since the moment they added it

[elfin night]

Why? We don’t want it to perform poorly vs Omnis

[topaz elm]

Isn’t carno having bad bleed resistance one of the reasons gallis bleed was removed

#bringbackthebleed

[half widget]

it performs fine against omnis even with the current resist

if it has extra stam, it should be able to get out of their way with no problem

[dusky surge]

no. carno didn't even have "bad bleed resist". it had normal resist, just an arbitary weakness stuck to its movement modifiers

galli's bleed was removed because it was bleeding out ceratos lmao

[topaz elm]

Bro how??

[half widget]

it outruns omnis as it is if it recognizes the mismatch early. the bleed resist just gives omnis a chance at catching an over-confident carno off guard.

[dusky surge]

they had a LOT of bleed

[half widget]

teno is better bleeder than omnis so idk where the fear is coming from

[topaz elm]

If you get bled out by a galli as Cerato I think it’s time we start picking up path of titans lmao

it’s one bite to puke a galli and galli has one of the longest puke animations like what

Doesn’t cera also have 50% bleed resistance when near a corpse??

Galli has 425 hp, ceras charge bite is 340 damage

Leaving galli with 85 hp, less than Cerato base bite damage

And that second hit can almost be guaranteed because of vomit

You can even hit gallis once with the regular bite and then charge a bite while they are puking to just put them down

[dusky surge]

you're underestimating it like crazy lol

[topaz elm]

I know what galli was capable of I’m also just not underestimating how strong cera is

I know it’s based on skill and you can just not get hit but seriously one tail knick and it’s over for galli

[half estuary]

Based

[solid wyvern]

Where is that "official tier list"?

[slim dragon]

Right there
#balance-feedback-discussion message

[solid wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/deimos-r6-siege-gif-6204485797971098070

[solid wyvern]

But it isn't official if it isn't made by devs

[slim dragon]

It is

[solid wyvern]

[topaz elm]

Bubulblu is a dev wym

Undercover

[slim dragon]

I'm a rat pulling Dondi's hair to make him take decisions for the game

[half widget]

a rat cooked this?

[solid wyvern]

what slied you mean? If you talking about charge canceling if hold too long - it is still the case

[half widget]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1354441184885608479 galaxy brain. put this into the game tomorrow please devs

[topaz elm]

the solution isn’t to nerf it or change how it deals damage

Just make it player input

Like a bite but with a stun

[half widget]

yah, i think that while it wouldn't solve the issue, it definitely would make those phantom hits less common.

[viscid mica]

@lean yacht how would they determine if they are mixpacking or not?

[lean yacht]

As i wrote, it is quite up for discussion. However it doesnt have to be black and white, the visual stress or the audible noices would occur when the carnivores and herbivores have either been too close for too long, or like shared a kill or are both close to a dead body for a longer period. We will probably never get a ABSOLUTE mixpacking solution, but if you see the dinosaurs stressing or making the distinct sounds, you know they have been too close for a bit too long

[elfin night]

I really mean it

omni is unlikable

and allo looks like giant omni

[solid wyvern]

Bruh. You do forget that omni have it's main bite attack very mid while allo will actually valid option to bite somone with viable damage. Also it will have be able to slap someone by clawed hands considering the animations shown for it

Anyway

https://tenor.com/view/the-allosaurus-allosaurus-allo-keep-moving-forward-until-it-destroys-its-enemies-gif-25069866

[viscid mica]

@pale kindle stun locking at any point is not ok no matter what is doing it

[viscid mica]

The only problem I see is how easily small or tiny tiers can troll with systems like this

@pale kindle dibble and trike while similar sparing isn’t the same deal trike is significantly chunkier and less nimble compared to dibble (very noticeable in the fact it loses depend while in spar were as dibble doesn’t) dibble is a bouncy reactive spar while trike is far more up front and bulky

I do think trike should be able to move backwards but nerfing dibble cuz it’s more nimble than a 9T truck of a Dino is silly

@maiden ginkgo yes please don’t use clones and show me how effective dilo is against stuff bigger than it

I’d love to see that

(It’s a trick question it’s trash, barely stand a chance against omni. There is a good reason no one played dilo when venom stopped doing damage)

[iron tree]

They're too similar imo

I mean I prefer dibble

But I don't like the fact trike has the same attacks but a bit slower and stronger

[viscid mica]

I mean they are meant to spar

[viscid mica]

They’re basically the same vibe just ones way thicccccer

[iron tree]

I'm talking about their base kit

[iron tree]

They're the same attacks

[viscid mica]

Yes they’re are dam near identical I’d expect very little variation

[iron tree]

I really want dibble to be the cc monster while trike hits heavy and maybe even impales stuff

[viscid mica]

I mean trikes bleed is nothing to sneeze at (you basically 1 tap carnos)

[minor axle]

I did

Like it’s objectively not good without venom (you can play galli instead) but even when your venom isn’t on it’s still salvageable due to its speed

[viscid mica]

@analog mirage stego can just go away from trikes, and dibbles are a two tap with power swings to the body

[minor axle]

Which also makes me consider it a worse playable at fg than sub adult since it slows down xd

[viscid mica]

The speed is the only thing that makes it semi possible

Objectively dilo is just not set up to play without venom

[iron tree]

Yes but it has cc as well

[viscid mica]

0 turn capacity, relatively light weight it jsut ain’t built for all that

[minor axle]

Yeah, without venom you just play as a speedy scavenger

[iron tree]

I don't mind trike and dibble being similar but they're basically the same thing

[viscid mica]

The cc does need a tweak as it can perma stun locking stuff rn

[minor axle]

It’s night vision is also decent but most carnivores get that free anyways

[iron tree]

Trike doesn't need cc

It just needs higher damage

[analog mirage]

My post was more so related to the fact that they have that CC to begin with. Yes in theory a stego can just two tap a dibble but why should a dibble be 1v1ing a stego to begin with

[viscid mica]

I mean your not gonna not get knocked over by a 9T boat if you let it hit you

[viscid mica]

Absolutely

[iron tree]

Incorrect. It impales you

[analog mirage]

A 3 ton Trike who grows for maybe an hour and a half can stun stego

[iron tree]

Trike's horns were made to impale

[iron tree]

Three and a half hours

[viscid mica]

To be fair trikes growth curve is absolutely busted

Your bigger than a dibble in half the time

[analog mirage]

It’s more closer to 2 hours, but do you realize how much weight it puts on in its first 20ish % of growth?

The early growth curve is a bit much rn, ontop of its already insane CC

[iron tree]

Stego can counter dibbles by using its terrain

[analog mirage]

Why should I need to use terrain against something half my size as the animal with a literal spiked baseball bat

[iron tree]

Because stego has a horrible matchup against armoured opponents

[viscid mica]

The point is that a dibble shouldn’t be able to stun lock

[analog mirage]

No because dibble being able to stun it is dumb

[viscid mica]

Which nothing should have stun lock

Stun lock is why pachy is trash rn it got nerfed into the abyss

[half widget]

why do u hate omni, i dont get it

[half widget]

omni pin needs to be removed for the same reason imo

[analog mirage]

If dibble couldn’t stun a stego, it would be a much more reasonable fight. Sure a dibble COULD fight a stego and does have that damage resistance, but it’s still gonna swing like a truck

[viscid mica]

Not really 90% of the roaster than is smaller has escape options and the last 10% will soon enough (hypsi will have climb soon)

[analog mirage]

Don’t worry, it’ll all make sense when dibble can stun 6T Rexs

[viscid mica]

Real

Rex mains will have none of that haha

[half widget]

it is just not a fun mechanic. for the omni or its prey.

[viscid mica]

Pin

[analog mirage]

Rex mains needing to use terrain to not be getting stunlocked to death by a dibble

[viscid mica]

Tbh I disagree sense everything can objectively avoid it it’s their own fault if they get ambushed or hit by it not you have to be the same weight or lighter for it to even matter and everything lighter is barely an hour grow

The longest of insta pin grows is galli

[viscid mica]

I’m not really playing rn until PT is up or Rex HT so I can grow a stego

[half widget]

them being able to avoid it doesnt make it any more fun. and im mostly talking about galli and group pins on teno/cera. plus it made them muzzle everything else that omni should be capable of doing. it is an agile creature that now uses strength to kill most of its prey. it sucks.

[viscid mica]

I over played omni during trike HT for the hunts and am a wee brunt rn XD

[analog mirage]

I’m growing stego the moment Rex drops

[viscid mica]

Skill issue respectfully. Getting 3/4 people on the same Dino isn’t a simple task and omni does objectively require a good bit of skill to hunt up, if you wanna complain cuz you didn’t notice the omni or got close enough for them tog etc the pin sucks to suck

[viscid mica]

Same

[half widget]

my friend, i am an omni player.

[viscid mica]

That’s not directed at you specifically I’m just saying in general

People gotta learn and a skilled omni is a great teacher

[half widget]

understood. but im saying it isn't fun as an omni. great, i right clicked a galli, lemme go make a cup of coffe while it dies. it isn't engaging at all

it was more fun when the agility you have as an omni was rewarding. now it feels more like you're meant to play as a pouncing heetseeking meatball

[viscid mica]

I mean kinda ya XD

[viscid mica]

Fair I guess? I mean when I play omni I usually try and group up and hunt up not down so I rarely waste time endlessly chasing a galli

[iron tree]

Stego couldn't pierce bones as thick as that of ceratopsians

[analog mirage]

And it doesn’t need to

[viscid mica]

RIP big allo homie will never have kids

[iron tree]

Just use your terrain to slow dibbles down

[analog mirage]

I’m not asking for a stego to sit there and smack a dibbles face. Because that obviously isn’t gonna work. I’m asking for it to not get stunlocked to death

[viscid mica]

Dibble has no buisness stun locking or even fighting a stego

[analog mirage]

Dibble has no reason to be effortlessly take down a stegosaurus by itself

Plain as that

[half widget]

i still don't find it fun when fighting ceras, carnos, or tenos. it was super rewarding and engaging to play cat and mouse with pouncing & juking as opposed to connect four trying to get my whole pack on at once. it isn't a strength dino but its main weapon is now strength. it just feels silly imo and i wish the pin was made into a temporary stun or something & omnis bleed or bite/bite cooldown was tuned up to compensate or something along those lines. but i would sleep perfectly fine if the pin mechanic was removed entirely as well.

[half widget]

truuee that little potato is cooked beyond belief rn though

[elfin night]

Victim complex in balance feedback about it being bad when pounce itself is great, agility makes it amazing at PvP and the solo pinning is downright broken

[viscid mica]

I don’t know what to say tbh. Your basically saying you don’t enjoy omni objectively as that’s its entire design goal for evirma

[elfin night]

And because it’s annoying to lose to garbage players when pinned

[viscid mica]

So real

[viscid mica]

https://tenor.com/view/control-freak-control-i-need-control-doctor-strange-benedict-cumberbatch-gif-11191866

So

AANYWAYS

[worthy steeple]

crazy how all the “nerf cera” feedbacks are back suddenly, they used to be poplular at one point but then i didn’t see em often, and now they’re back with 2x the power and frequency

not like i disagree tho.

[half widget]

according to what? do they have a roadmap for what they plan to do w/ pin or something bc id like to check it out

[viscid mica]

The speed reductions on charge isn’t a terrible idea either

[viscid mica]

Omni is one of the first carnivores added its whole taking point is pin and group play

And yes they had a trello up for a long time

[worthy steeple]

that’s basically what i want. that change alone will fix the cera for me. and also remove the 99% bleed resistance buff they gave to it on HT..

[viscid mica]

Unfortunately you can’t access it anymore

[viscid mica]

Yaaaaaaa I don’t wanna talk about cera having added bleed res tbh I already think most things bleed res is too high

[half widget]

group play yes, agreed, but i dont see why that means pin has to be as oppressive as it is now. i think it encourages them to make its cat & mouse gameplay less rewarding which is.. exactly what happened when they added pin

[viscid mica]

It’s really not oppressive though?

[worthy steeple]

i wouldn’t really say that😳 especially how much bleed things like omni do

[half widget]

oppressive as in "you must use it to be successful" all other tools are weak in comparison

in majority of scenarios

[viscid mica]

Like it requires each individual to be competent to get the pin on bigger things and beyond a single small it’s evadable

[viscid mica]

It is kinda its entire design point

[worthy steeple]

omni bleed pounce needs to get looked at, it’s crazy strong..

[half widget]

id just like to see it be more engaging if its going to be such a massive part of its kit. because it really just isnt

[minor axle]

It’s not even one of, it is the first Iirc. It and teno for herbis (well, for evrima)

[viscid mica]

If you think so

[viscid mica]

Ya though so but didn’t remember so I wasn’t gonna make baseless statements

[maiden ginkgo]

They shouldn't have venom to begin (and troodon isn't a real dino anymore) with but thats neither here nor there.

I believe the roles should be swapped, their poison making any creature killable within x amount (they shouldn't be fighting carno's or cera's regardless) and be able to take down stego's (whose attack hit box is insane) with a bit of baiting.

Where troodon, always were a one hit and done 'group required' playstyle; should have clones, it would give them a better chance to survive everyones alt attack, using the clone as bait.

I don't use Dillo, but not due to clones issue, it's movement is too horrid.

[viscid mica]

Its movement is horrid and you want it to suck more by removing its entire selling point that was hinted at sense the moment is was added to the “planned playables”

Hell clones are in its concept art

I don’t think clones are the problem they are over tunned for sure but that’s it

[minor axle]

We should replace clones with the old hyper bleed, people would like that (well I guess ceras would xd)

[hasty coyote]

for context of what galis can do WITHOUT bleed, cera may have messed up a lot but 4 galis killing a cera this fast is insane: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx4_4b_gvP5fums27a3wcOY4e7C0F7dh3b?si=l5gVj4ayPbvxABJi

also tbh, gali doesnt need bleed. It already beats pretty much anything in endurance and speed. Bleed only really helps it bully things it shouldnt and mixpack better (gali with bleed allows it to bleed a target out as something bigger follows behind). Like bleed doesnt solve any problems but causes a few minor ones.

[steep gazelle]

@onyx charm I partly agree with this, because one of the reasons Carno is currently playable is because of the automatic hit charge. Making this manual should come with buffs.

[maiden ginkgo]

Dinosaur survival game, that doesn't have accurate dinosaurs.

Dillo should be quick, sneaky and snakey. The real Dillophosaurus never had venom, poison or frills.

There is no point arguing over the opinion so... passionately. It's a 20$ game and it's not supposed to be balanced (per dino) each has their role and it's the players who want to push it into other areas.

[viscid mica]

Good thing it’s not 1-1 realism stego actually 1 tapping everything would suck

[maiden ginkgo]

Clones if they worked would be awesome, having two dinos with the same mechanics is rough.

I think they should swith, dillo would be an insane glass cannon that can take some hits and troodon would be the night assassin the devs say is it's role.

[steep gazelle]

A change like this not coming with buffs would make the carno extremely bad to play, since the main reason he is so into hunting small things is this charge.

[sage marsh]

#balance-feedback message at this point i can only laugh at this crazy nonsense that is the Carno hate a lot of yall have. Yall seem to think that Carno is in a much better place right now when it isn't and just because yall don't like that charge any mention of a buff is met with a mass of downvotes. This is a survival game and all yall care about is "uh my balance" which is reasonable only to an extent. We are well past that point with Carno. It's only honestly laughable at this point.

[viscid mica]

Good thing they don’t have the same mechanic

[maiden ginkgo]

100% agree.

The better thing I think is having the devs fix the graphics issues and clean up the map and positioning (spawn) coding.

[viscid mica]

It’s still a video game balance and fun is important

[viscid mica]

Which they are working on current HT

[maiden ginkgo]

Absolutely!

They are, though it's been a rough process.

[viscid mica]

I mean hackers have found a breach in current HT too for a lot of old really bad hacks to re appear

[viscid mica]

For that second point with the realism as devs have stated they are well aware stuff isn’t 1-1 and that’s partially intentional as it’s Dino’s as they envision them. Let’s be honest post people wouldn’t care for 1-1 of a lot of these Dino’s (except the paleo guys but they make up like 2/10s of the community tops)

[elfin night]

Man I love deino

So well designed when an 8 ton crocodile is impossible to hear and see but it can do both things against you

I love gambling or having an entire playable invalidated

[slim dragon]

skill issue

[sage marsh]

Tbf, go to Florida. When the water is murky and they aren't floating how often can you see them?

And Deino "could" be bigger. Our Deino is a quite a bit undersized.

[dusky surge]

i love carno (way better than that snoozefest that is cera), but i stand by the fact that "buff carno weight" is just going to cause more problems than it solves, and I REALLY don't want carno to go back to getting tons of nerfs to everything because of its weight being too high for certain animals to handle

current carno feels infinitely better to handle than prior iterations, and HT carno is insanely good

[viscid mica]

No it’s pretty in the dot for IRL in fact abit bigger than most recent studies project

[sage marsh]

Far as I'm aware average is a ton or two bigger and maximum on record I think is about 14tons. I havnt looked into Deino in a while so it's possible my info is outdated.

[slim dragon]

AI overview

[dusky surge]

AI overview

[hasty coyote]

ai and dinosaurs do not mesh well in the slightest

[viscid mica]

Yes I’m being lazy you can Google it yourself if you care that much

Ai overview are accurate enough to be fair ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[viscid mica]

^

[maiden ginkgo]

Yeah, I like how the majority is setup. Fun engaging, types of roles.

Having the attack/ hit boxes cleaned up, map, ai issues would be great but also isn't as important then having a full roster where those fixes would have more impact.

Mutations could use a rework, perhaps having more restriction on where they go (like the slot 2 ones) would give better balance.

I'm hopeful with the direction and want to see whats next (exciting times).

[viscid mica]

Meh it’s good enough for a short fact check I could spend hours deep diving every research document to find the exact stuff but it ain’t that deep

[viscid mica]

Let’s be real if dilo venom was tunned down to do a sizeable but less oppressive damage people wouldn’t care nearly as much

[sage marsh]

Feeling good and being good are 2 completely different things.

If you know how to manage Carno stam well yes it feels very skillful with Charge cancels and whatnot. However actual viability is low in comparison. There is no reason it shouldn't be a threat to everything in a similar size range or smaller. Carno's survivability is laughable for its size. It's survivability comes almost completely in the form of its ability to run away which with its vulnerability to bleed is difficult to actually stay in a fight without that being the death of you. The reality is that Carno is outclassed and relies on either killing freshspawns or death by 1000 smacks. As charge does abysmal damage for what you would expect.

[dusky surge]

HT carno feels like an A or S-Tier dinosaur tbh, so I really don't see the viability complaint

no vulnerability to bleed, higher stam, higher agility, faster growtime

[maiden ginkgo]

agree.

I did manage to kill 2 fg dillos on fg cera (3v1) but died after to bloodloss it was a good fight and that darkness is insanely good. That fight I was very happy there were no clones.

[sage marsh]

So everything aside from actually buffing it's ability to do or take damage outside of bleed not just wrecking it now.

[elfin night]

Again, pulling my stellar response

[viscid mica]

Ya clones rn have 0 counter play so I get the annoyance

[elfin night]

Its a video game

I couldn’t give less of a damn about whether something is accurate or not

Imagine if Rex could go literally invisible

That’s deino

[dusky surge]

it doesn't need either buff. its damage output is fine, as is its ability to take damage, its bleed was the only real outlying issue.

now its a near uncatchable nightmare to smalls that can easily escape anything it doesn't want to fight, and dominate the fights it chooses

having the ability to move is what carno should be focused on, not brute raw strength

and carno feels mobile in the HT

[maiden ginkgo]

It's that kind of situation which makes me want to see clones swapped to Troodon, getting alt attacked sucks and that little distraction would be handy.

Perhaps clones would be better as a mutation choosable by either.

[elfin night]

No

No combat mutations. Bad idea

Let alone mutations that use abilities from other dinosaurs

[sage marsh]

I'm not saying that Carno needs to have brute raw strength. What I'm saying is that Carno should be the dominant hunter at its size range. Which currently it's not. Granted I havnt had the chance to play HT myself so maybe these changes are more significant then I'm giving them credit. However, Carno's damage output since the nerfs has felt abysmal. That and it's survivability having been driving into the dirt have been my biggest problems with it. Charge does abysmal damage itself and it's bites while fine on the surface and less consistent to land due to mobility (which you are saying has been changed) So since the changes Carno has been charge.exe with little 100dmg pokes to secure a kill and the rare knockdown bite combo. If Charge were made more consistent and/or did more damage i could honestly live with that.

[dusky surge]

charge did have more damage when carno was originally rewoked into 1300kg and it was one of the most overpowered iterations of carno we have ever seen

disgustingly unfun

[slim dragon]

Carno isn't the dominant hunter in its size range because cera is busted, not because carno itself is weak

[sage marsh]

I do not recall this. Unless you are referring to that HT which if I remember everyone including myself were playing dibble.

[cosmic pelican]

Lol 200dmg infinite charge carno

It put cerato to shame

[cosmic pelican]

was the tap charge btw

[sage marsh]

Carno still wouldn't be the dominant hunter at that size range because it can't knockdown a full size Cera. Which is where the imbalance between comes from. Carno is not a threat to Cera and so there is no respect between them. Carno just run or Cera kills it more often then not unless there is a size difference or a skill difference involved. Cera on the other hand has vomit that works on Carno just fine. Which is what allows it to dominate that fight because Carno has no real counter aside from running. I'm not saying that Carno should dominate that fight but the 2 of them should absolutely be of at least equal threat to eachother which they are not.

[elfin night]

Lol

[dusky surge]

it shouldn't knock down a full size cera. why does it need to do that lol

[elfin night]

People who say carno can’t do anything to cera are so out of touch

If they are in the open with no water and carno can use long distance charges freely, there is nothing the cera can do besides fleeing

[sage marsh]

Why doesn't it?

[elfin night]

There is NO fighting a carno in the open reliably unless you get the ambush first

[dusky surge]

cerato getting "interactive gameplayed" to death is why carno ended up here in the first place. let it knock down cera again and we're getting carno turbonerfs all over again

you want a worse carno? increase its weight

[slim dragon]

Cera is also slower, so it kinda needs to be able to fight back against carno

I don't know who thinks carno being bost fastest and strongest in its tier is a good idea

[dusky surge]

that's why 1800kg carno was asthmatic, had a long cooldown on the charge, needed to charge for a long time to knock someone down, was vulnerable to bleed, had poor stamina and terrible awful agility

because that was how they balanced it, and it still wasn't enough

the moment you let it knock down cera, it's getting other stats gutted to compensate. it happened before. it will happen again

also carno can just

leave. at any point. cera cannot do jacksquat about it. that is why cerato is favoured in the matchup, because carno can just entirely control when/if the engagement happens on mere merit of being a fast boy

[elfin night]

And even now

People don’t get it

It can STUN AND CANCEL CHARGED BITE WHILE ALSO USING ITS OWN

Good carnos still beat up ceras

[worthy steeple]

yeah, cera loses to carno tbh

[elfin night]

Exactly. Good ceras actually don’t bother ever with carnos unless they get the ambush, are body buffed, there’s water nearby or they’re in a group

[dusky surge]

also yea, even then, cerato isn't even fully favoured, it needs the right environment/biome to actually have said favour

[cosmic pelican]

Once it engages, and inevitably takes damage and loses some blood, along with using stamina, the cerato can trot it down afterwards, as long as it has more blood than the carno.

[elfin night]

Its far riskier than most other matchups besides dibble and stego

[sage marsh]

Here is my thing. And this is where I'm stuck having difficulty with this. Cera is built to be a scavenger and has amazing tools for that. It's survivability in that regard is phenomenal. Carno on the other hand has to work for everything it's crazy to me that Cera while being the scavenger of the two, is more survivable, has better damage, and is just better at hunting. It's why I think Carno should have the advantage in that match up.

[dusky surge]

which is less of a problem with the new buffs to carno's blood retention

[cosmic pelican]

I mean yeah, but its still very much possible, just takes a bit more time

[dusky surge]

nerf ceras hunting rather than make carno a cera killer i fail to see the issue

[sage marsh]

"Just looses to Carno" it is nowhere near that simple.

[dusky surge]

they also buffed carno's stam

so overall i kinda doubt it's that easy

[cosmic pelican]

cera and carno have the same trot speed, so the cera will eventually catch up either way.

[cosmic pelican]

I know, by 25 seconds, I was the one who tested it with cheesy

[dusky surge]

which is notable

when it also has considerably higher speed

[cosmic pelican]

Still gonna be doable though is what Im saying

[dusky surge]

sure, but i doubt it's going to be a consistent happening to good carnos

[cosmic pelican]

Jesus christ I cannot spell for the life of me

[dusky surge]

like as a troodon you can kinda just trot down the entire roster besides a few critters but you dont see anyone complaining about that lol

[elfin night]

If you don’t have the right environment or you don’t get the ambush for a good headstart, you are getting rolled by any competent carno

And yeah dude, Alpha said it perfectly

Just nerf cera’s capabilities instead of buffing carno to do something it has NO BUSINESS doing

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah cuz its... a troodon, not really a threat unless theres many of them.

[iron tree]

Incorrect

Cera just needs a bush, tree, rock, etc.

It wins every time if it isn't in the open

And the Carno should always ambush

[worthy steeple]

it can be simple, depends on how skilled you are as a carno, cera should use terrain to fight carno efficiently, not to mention when there’s 2 carno, cera has little to 0 chances to do anything other than run away

[worthy steeple]

you sure? ceras trot speed is a lot faster as far as i know

[sage marsh]

That goes both ways. So saying if there is 2 is kind moot.

[worthy steeple]

well it seems that way

[cosmic pelican]

Nope, same 15ish kmh afaik

[dusky surge]

imma be honest carno really doesn't need to ambush all the time

i dont even play it as such because frankly i dont think it works that well as one

[sage marsh]

Did they buff Carno trot?

[worthy steeple]

no, if there’s 20 ceras against one carno the carno can simply outrun them, in case of ceras they can’t

so 2 carnos vs one cera is not the same as 2 ceras against one carno

[worthy steeple]

cera is 17 something tho😭

[sage marsh]

We are talking about fighting though. And no not if the Ceras got an ambush. Which they would try to do.

[cosmic pelican]

eh I forget, but they should be the same

[dusky surge]

imma be honest how u getting ambushed that often as a carno by ceras

[sage marsh]

Besides I'm also of the opinion that Carno should be locked at a group limits of 2

[dusky surge]

why lol

[cosmic pelican]

even if they arent, cera is still very much able to track down a carno that is hurt and bleeding

[dusky surge]

genuinely why would you want that

[cosmic pelican]

Ive done it at least a dozen times

[sage marsh]

Because of its speed. And what they are supposed to be hunting

[dusky surge]

3 is fine

[sage marsh]

If they are meant to be hunting something that is equal to or weaker then them why do you need 3?

Feels way extra imo

[worthy steeple]

17.8 if we trust the video i found on youtube

[dusky surge]

why not? they're still small, and a trio of carnos feels right

small packs, but not nearly solitary like a deino

[worthy steeple]

ambush with charge bite? and even then carno can simply run away

[dusky surge]

they can coexist off larger meals

[sage marsh]

No I'm talking just applying bleed and vomit.

[dusky surge]

or just AI/good hunts

[cosmic pelican]

tbf I could hop on norden any time to test the trot speeds, but not really feeling like it lol

[worthy steeple]

lol fair..

[cosmic pelican]

one day surely

needing to test stam regen and run times back when the new stamina system came out was horrible, Im already getting flashbacks. 30+ minutes of just sitting, doing nothing.

[sage marsh]

Because of their speed. And the fact that so many Carnos will change charge knockdown from being a maybe to an almost definite. Becomes overbearing imo

I can't imagine why you would need more than 2 so long as you are hunting something you have business doing so.

[topaz elm]

I don’t really see how adding more skill to carno wouldn’t be a good thing

it essentially broadens carno’s kit as now you can use the charge as a sort of speed dash to avoid taking damage

And without stunning yourself on large opponents while hitting their tail
It would greatly help carno against large prey like Diablo which carno currently struggles against due to its long stun time

Giving carno the ability to go full tilt without having to ram someone would also increase carno’s success while working in groups, there’s essentially no risk of ramming your teammate so long as you keep your finger off lmb

carno can charge in for a quick dash, bite and run out to avoid attacks
The penalty for being sloppy is a 4 second cooldown where most creatures can subtract a good chunk of your health
Maia can get 1-2 stomps in that’s 600 ish damage
Diablo if it knocks you down is 150 damage, if it decides to gore you that’s 275 x 2, spar attack you for 350 or alt attack you for 300
Anyway you are taking around 400-500 damage from a single mistake

this also means we don’t really have to change carno’s weight

If we just improve upon its ability to hunt currently with the abilities it can utilize now

we don’t have to give it an ACTUAL crutch of more health and damage

[steep gazelle]

Carnotauro is fine with this charge as it is, the only problem is the bugged hitbox like the dibble. Making Carno's charge manual will make it harder for him to hunt smaller animals, This being the only thing they can hunt, since things of the same weight or larger the carno is practically useless.

[topaz elm]

Carno is pretty good against tenonto and Diablo so long as you know what you are doing

Diablos hitbox is horrific though

https://youtu.be/Txcd7Edk_ZE?si=YT1_bBDA8JQuE6kh

https://youtu.be/_5qZLbY8AUI?si=zYZgswVoaGBzwCRA

granted this video was when Diablo was new so people didn’t really know what to do

But it was also all pre Diablo nerfs, so they were at their strongest (I believe)

[steep gazelle]

You can't say that Carno can fight against something only knows how to spam alt attack xd

[topaz elm]

Did the carno not win

[steep gazelle]

Dibble 100% is something completely off Carno's menu, if Diablo knows how to play at least, carno won't be a problem, even in 3

Carnotaur against tenonto is fairer, 2 carno can deal with 1 tenonto with difficulty, but in some cases 1 carno can beat 1 tenonto, it just needs to be bad

[floral plank]

Anything can beat anything as long as it's bad

[steep gazelle]

Tenontoa who know that 1 kick is enough to make Carno bleed to death will not stand still and wait to be attacked.

[steep gazelle]

Cerato is the exception in this

Even though Cerato player is horrible, the player will be able to defend himself absurdly well and also hunt

[worthy steeple]

“tenontoa”🥴

[steep gazelle]

🤓 ☝️ tenondroon

[viscid mica]

@random stump I know you have been blocked cuz you block everyone but you do know carno IS faster than dilo right?

I don’t even know why I try with bro

[worthy steeple]

yeah lol..

[viscid mica]

🫠

[topaz elm]

yeah carno outspeeds dilo the second it turns 20% lol

[elfin night]

@onyx lichen no, carno doesn’t need to perform better against cera in a 1v1. Especially HT carno

[onyx lichen]

Carno just feels like a faster weaker Cera

[elfin night]

It is meant to be faster AND weaker

It is a small game hunter. Not a bulky brawler corpse bully

[onyx lichen]

From what we seen Carno was intended to be on an even playing field as Cerato

[elfin night]

Never

And you can see it with now carno was nerfed into its current state

You know why? Because something that is 10kph slower than you and is the same size should absolutely have the upper hand in combat

Since carno can just flee if attacked or to retreat if things don’t go well. Whereas cera has to accept the carno’s choice (at least very often)

[onyx lichen]

Carno and Cera have the same weight and biteforce, Cera just heavily wins since it has a faster bite, bacteria, and in some cases body buff

[elfin night]

1800kg carno knocking over ceras got gutted for obvious reasons

[elfin night]

Exactly

[onyx lichen]

I understand why it was made smaller than that, but making it just a Cera copy is not the right way

[elfin night]

Those things give cera more or less the edge even though carno can still win in the right conditions and when cera has no escape options

[elfin night]

It’s not a cera copy at all

It fulfills a niche cera never will and works very differently

[onyx lichen]

Same Weight and biteforce

[elfin night]

They are nothing alike

[onyx lichen]

They have the same weight and biteforce

[elfin night]

And you think those two traits make two things the same??

[onyx lichen]

They make them similar

Too similar

[elfin night]

What about rmb abilities? Passive abilities? Mobility? Speed?

That doesn’t make them “too similar” at all lmao

That’s like saying that teno and bary will be so similar if bary gets 1600-1700kg and good bleed/approximately the same damage with claw attacks

Yeah too similar, copy of each other

[onyx lichen]

I'm talking about stats, not abilities

[elfin night]

And stats aren’t everything, especially when you just consider two stats in a vacuum and immediately deem cera and carno too similar to one another

Because their bite force and weight is the same, despite them playing out in completely different ways

I also really don’t get those buffs

Knocking 1 ton ceras and tenos is diabolical

[onyx lichen]

"Why should I play as something that is just fast when I could play something that has more bulk and defensive at the same weight and damage"

[elfin night]

Also the 175 bite force

[elfin night]

Because maybe you want to play the thing that every creature about half your weight or less is absolutely terrified of, instead of the bulky brawler who cannot even catch up to a trotting galli

And then again, different appeals with their niche and abilities

Cera will never be a hyper effective small game hunter

And carno never a hyper effective scavenger corpse bully

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxkawmvs7GaF6lM95vhRb-CkXzopTdspdR?si=Y0LK3WrNLkSgbSVL this is a great example of what cera had to put up with, when carno was not “too weak”

Can’t run away, can’t fight

[iron tree]

I love carno

I really do

But those changes are just awful

I'd love to see a larger Carno with the update 5 build

But just buffing the hell out of that thing with its current agility wouldn't just help carno against ceras

Those changes would help carno to dominate everything

[iron tree]

Tbf that was a bad cera

Cera vs Carno was balanced back on spiro

[hallow hinge]

how fresh spawn cera can make fg herra vomit with 1 regular bite ?

[iron tree]

You've to be low on hunger for a juvi cera to make you throw up

[hallow hinge]

half hunger

it is really stupid tbh

[iron tree]

You were most likely hungry and it charged its charged bite

Eh not really

It's a bacterial bite

[hallow hinge]

not charge attack just regular one

i was chasing him he just turn and bite not even alt bite and i vomited with around %40 hunger

[elfin night]

sure was balanced to deal with someone faster, that had more health and could knock you over

[iron tree]

You seem to forget carno's awful charge

It was, when skilled enough, an equal fight

[topaz elm]

@topaz needle the swamp right now is really just supposed to sustain you until maybe halfway
juvenile croc has all the capabilities to make the trek to a more advantageous hunting position

id wait until maybe bary to reliably stay in swamp

[hallow hinge]

everybody talking about skilled cera but back then good skilled carno would't give a change

[dusky surge]

if all an animal is to you is weight and biteforce you need to seriously reconsider how you view this game's roster lmao

[onyx lichen]

Different variety is nice

[dusky surge]

and cera and carno couldn't be more different

changing numbers for the sake of nothing being the same is absurd tbh

[keen plover]

That cerato wasn’t close to fg. Not really a good example

[neon willow]

Speed is a stat, and damage and cc applied by all attacks are too.

Cera and Carno have the same weight (HP) and bite force (basic LMB attack). However, Cera gives up speed and turn rate in exchange for crowd control (vomit stun allows them to land free hits) and defensive abilities (body buff). Carno sacrifices crowd control and defensive abilities for speed and agility (eg, you don't need damage reduction if you aren't hit).

All of that is stats that are important to a playable's success. We aren't in legacy where weight, speed, and bite force are the only stats that matter anymore

[onyx lichen]

Cera has a better turn rate than Carno

[neon willow]

My point still stands though... Carno's stats are designed to chase after other creatures. Cera's stats are designed to bring the hurt if something walks up on them

[onyx lichen]

Fair, I do think the biteforce should be 175 still

Cera has a faster bite and is described to have a weak bite for its size

[viscid mica]

https://tenor.com/view/han-tokyodrift-gif-8353630

Counter argument

Carno drifting

[steep gazelle]

This Cerato was probably fg, the Carno in the Spiro was really giant

[keen plover]

The run animation is closer to sub though. Carno was big ,but that cerato wasn’t fg

There’s a fg earlier in the video that is visually much larger

#balance-feedback message a good Carno suggestion

[dusky surge]

immediately followed by a generic bad carno suggestion lmao

also i cannot WAIT for my dibble feedback to be obliterated

[keen plover]

“I need charge to do all the work. I don’t want to time my hits”

[keen plover]

Diablo “buff” suggestion ??? Yeah you’re getting downvoted

[dusky surge]

yea ik

[fervent orchid]

ngl. nothing makes me happier than seeing a stego getting its teeth kicked in by a trike. i cant wait for allo to take down stegos too

[dusky surge]

Nothing will make me happier than watching an allo get oneshot by a stego lmao

[half widget]

balance discussion btw lool

[fervent orchid]

balance discussion, right. stego need nerfed because doing 1300+ in one swing that has 0 cooldown is not fun. it needs a higher stam cost and at least a cooldown before it can swing again. if pachy misses its main attack its punished with death most of the time, stego has no drawbacks to missing its swing, especially since it can have tactile and just get that stamina back

[dusky surge]

Yea so the takeaway is tactile is OP lmao

It’s not stego’s fault some mutations are just insanely broken

Pachy’s ram also costs basically no stamina. It’s beyond cheap. Stego’s swings cost 10-15% stamina.

Not saying pachy is good mind you because that animal is ass

[dusky surge]

If anything stego will get buffs with rex being introduced lol. Same way trike was balanced around stego very early into the HT to give stego a better chance

[fervent orchid]

they need to nerf damage and not let power creep overtake the game because it really seems like its heading that way

[fervent orchid]

its not enough imo

[dusky surge]

the damage is fine. stego is, and always has been, a glass cannon. that's why it has a weaker head and no resistances to any damage type.

if it's going to survive things like rex, it either needs to be faster (which really doesn't fit stego) or hit harder (which absolutely does)

as for powercreep, it was made abundantly clear from the beginning that apexes are apexes for a reason

this isn't a PvP game. there are animals well beyond your league

the raptor doesn't get to 1v1 the rex and win, this isn't legacy anymore

[fervent orchid]

legacy combat was awful. but i disagree with stego damage with the roster we have right now. all the kos stego players are just going to go to the next biggest herbi which is trike and the problem will be with trikes next doing too much. lol

[half widget]

raptor can hardly 1v1 anything, let alone a rex, in its current state lmao. your opponent has to have downloaded the game 5 minutes ago and be stuck in their settings menu

[dusky surge]

The roster we have right now is about to see the introduction of Rex. Now couldn’t be a worse time to nerf stego

[fervent orchid]

we'll have to see how it goes once we have bigger and bigger things in

[dusky surge]

like i'mma be honest nerfing stego just guarantees everyone will move to trike as the next big thing

which is bad. i'd prefer some biodiversity

[fervent orchid]

and, no not really. because then they can lower the damage that trike and rex could do then buff it as needed instead of putting in things at their strongest

[dusky surge]

i feel like that entirely contrasts with the point of apexes tho

[solid wyvern]

I am pretty sure tha carno can do that. I seen it

[solid wyvern]

What trot speed of troo?

[solid wyvern]

pack size of 3 sounds pathetic for a carno. Why not 4? Especially when allo will arrive it will be funny

[solid wyvern]

Lmao why it should have pack size of Deino/T-rex

[solid wyvern]

Where it was descrived to have "weak bite" lol?

[dusky surge]

in its dossier

[solid wyvern]

Stego is perfectly fine. You just making mistake thinking that carnos and ceras are supposed to have chances against it

[solid wyvern]

Huh? Where?

[dusky surge]

to quote "Though it is neither particularly fast nor damaging for its size, ceratosaurus is an extremely durable animal"

[solid wyvern]

Charged bite be like:

[dusky surge]

charge bite was MEANT to be a large-scale burst attack, not the only move you ever need

i still think cera's problems can be solved by simply adding a minor speed decrease while charging the bite

[fervent orchid]

them getting one tapped isnt fun but i understand maybe why they shouldnt be able to fight it. my biggest issue is deino getting 2 tapped by them. but its the only "aquatic" we have right now so idk, maybe itll get better for deino once they have some actual water competition instead of body guarding stegos

[dusky surge]

deino can't get 2-tapped by them lol. the maths don't add for that to happen

[solid wyvern]

If deino got 2-tapped it probably was already wounded or diying from hunger

[fervent orchid]

when a fg deino gets put on yellow from one attack its pretty close. theres only green yellow orange then red. yellow is almost half its hp

[dusky surge]

yellow would be anywhere between taking a quarter to a half

orange would be taking half its HP

[fervent orchid]

i said almost half.

[dusky surge]

i mean... i guess, if its a headshot, it can do over 1/4

[solid wyvern]

Instead of making false statement can you just watch any videos with fights deino vs stego?

[dusky surge]

or a running swing

[fervent orchid]

1300+ damage is crazy tho. deino only do 1k on a stego headshot and thats if they can get it.

its not like we have exact numbers so its just rough estimates based on what ive witnessed in person

[dusky surge]

which is fine. that's stego's whole shtick, and deino can grab and drown stego instantly, so they're pretty even

also we do have pretty exact numnbers

[fervent orchid]

deino cant grab a fg stego