balance-feedback-discussion

[cobalt dagger]

The only thing you might do is change how it works depending on playable.

Currently, the way it works - It favors 'the hitter.' If you are frozen on my screen, but on YOUR screen (and everyone else's screen watching) you're far away from me, but I hit the frozen version of you that I see, then you get hit.

This favors ANYTHING that can sit there and tank hits and then dish them out. (Diablo, stego, deino.... Later, probably Rex.) It also results in those funny raptor pins when the juvi is 20 feet away and the raptor still pins you.

What we could do, is make it favor 'the one being hit' instead. So that, as long as you aren't in the range on YOUR screen, then you aren't hit by it. It's unfair both ways, but there ARE people (I've seen them) who intentionally go - usually deino, sometimes diablo or stego - on a server they have high ping with, and get silly kills.
Admittedly, given that I know this information, I select diablo/stego/deino/likewise when I'm playing on a server where I know I'm extra laggy, but in my case it's because I know I can't survive high ping as anything that can't trade hits, so maybe the guys going for funny kills are actually just subject to bad ping and playing what they viably can.

[golden coral]

Hmm, fair, though I would still try just adjusting the multiplier, and see if it can grow with the playable before trying to add some kind of "armor" cap, which should well, apply to armor itself if we get something like that.

[golden coral]

Which then becomes a question of "should it benefit the one that has to sit there and tank hits" or not.

Since that side has no choice in the engagement, so do we favour the one that already has the advantage more or not

[cobalt dagger]

I suppose the purpose of the switch is that instead of having funny hits, less creatures would be hit. It would be really annoying to have less hits land, sometimes it's already ridiculous what hits don't land.

But, I prefer less things being hit, to more things being hit, because less things being hit might mean less things dying.

I see what you are saying except 'no choice of engagement' actually happens both ways. That raptor's speed means nothing if he's frozen, entirely stationary, on MY screen.

[golden coral]

That's what I mean, it's not a given that it should benefit one side or the other, because there's a case to be made for either, depending on various factors

[golden coral]

If you're entirely frozen, that seems like something really off with the game/server, and not something that even on a laggy server ought to happen. I've been through bad ping and stuff too, including funny teleporting, but being entirely frozen is new

Though I'm not sure we want less things being hit/dying, that would also come down to things like investment

Is it better that more raptors die, than one deino, or the other way around, for investment in the playables

[cobalt dagger]

True that frozen doesn't happen as often.

More so, bad ping often makes the other people's reaction 'back in time.' You see them run away 5 seconds after they already did. So you can run up and hit them before they react because on your screen they react much slower.

[golden coral]

Case can be made for both sides even there, so it's not neccesarily simple

I'd rather the less invested playables risk more, and the ones that, aside from extreme lag/delay do have the choice of going near the other playable more often than not

[cobalt dagger]

Agreed. I think that overall less death would happen with less favoring the hitter though. While Diablo, stego and Deino tank hits rather than dodge, MOST EVERYTHING ELSE tries to be wiggly in combat.

[golden coral]

Could be worth trying, but it shouldn't make it harder to defend yourself, which would be my concern here

[cobalt dagger]

I think I gotta go do real life things. But I wanna let you say your thoughts first

[golden coral]

That's about it, I don't want playables that already struggle with pressure have a harder time vs things that already have the advantage normally

[cobalt dagger]

I will read and reply later.

This is already happening, Pachy getting rammed by a laggy carno, bitten by laggy cera, or pinned by one normal raptor but then the second one was laggy.
Teno used to suffer it badly vs carno when ram was involved but now it favors the teno because ram is bad now.

Deinos running out of the water to get you, you run away, but they lung the air where you used to be and then you teleport into their mouth. I suppose deino doesn't succeed as much as it used to thanks to water changes, safe drinking spots and faster water drain, but it's still incredibly powerful.

Dryo, hypsi, pachy and Galli suffer this feature significantly. I think the only playables who 'only benefit' are Diablo, Stego, and Deino. I suppose that's 2 more herbis than carnis. But There are more herbis than carnis that 'only suffer' it seems too. Galli, beipi (I know omnivores, but they kinda just play like herbis what with migrating, just added ability to eat frogs and fish), hypsi, dryo, vs I suppose troodon and ptera. 4 vs 2, and there's probably ultimately a higher population of ptera and troodon combined than beipi, galli, hypsi and dryo combined on a given server.

Pachy, raptor, and herra are all in a 'sometimes hurt, sometimes helped' category. Dilo is a bit more hurt by it than raptor thanks to not being able to pin. Basically, I think it hurts unpopular playables far more than it helps them. It even hurts stego in the diablo vs stego match up, where if the laggy diablo has a funny hit that registers on you then you are ALSO stunned and unable to fight back.

It helps diablo, but he's popular so we don't especially want it to help him, and it actually helps raptors more than it hurts them because of all the funny pins they'll get on fast little guys that they shouldn't have gotten. All those poor sub dilo souls and what have you.

[leaden remnant]

pachy vs 2 raptors is just pachy win

a pachy that knows what he's doing will win against meh raptor packs and extremely good duos/trios of raptors

[cobalt dagger]

I need to see footage of that to believe it.

[leaden remnant]

are you available rn to get on a private server

ill be the pachy you can be a raptor you can bring whoever you want

ill show you how pachy is not as miserable as some people say it is

[leaden remnant]

(i dont have any video of that, it's too obvious for me to even think about recording it)

got these two videos of two unfortunate ceras tho

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/ihq2JR0hi2ciXgazY/d1337jQPrHiY?invite=cr-MSxjRWcsMjUxOTE1ODY2LA

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/ihmZkisZGFKI2GPBh/d1337G6Zhdi8?invite=cr-MSx1ckwsMjUxOTE1ODY2LA

all it takes is getting a head fracture, leg fracture and it's done

[cobalt dagger]

Cera is different, he's slower than Pachy and not nearly as overpowered right now, but not as bad as dilo.

Mostly though. He's slower. So if the pachy is going for the leg-break then it can chase.

These links appear not to work

[cobalt dagger]

I am afraid no, not at the time

[leaden remnant]

wtf

[leaden remnant]

alr hit me up if you're able to

[golden coral]

@vale harness I believe teno is slated to be looked at and possibly changed as well. But I'm not sure carno should be hunting teno, it's, even if downsized, not really "small game" after all, any more than cera would be, so it always were a bit of a strange matchup. Though if it gets downsized, it might be more semiaquatic, which also wouldn't really make it carno prey that often. As for herbis being fun given a proper gameplay loop and all, agreed. Calling them "raid bosses" is a bit odd. Unless teno got changed from last I checked it, it's not really "very powerful", but it is a good playable in design. Stego is also not really that powerful, especially for what it is or could be, and is a rather bad playable in design on top of that. Diablo is, granted, overtuned in a few aspects, mostly agility it seems and the stun thresholds, and potentially the defensive multiplier, but aside from that, it's not really all that special either. And it will be changed when it comes to said agility last I heard. There's few to no "immune to death" playables, though I guess ptera, herrera, galli and deino are the closest ones overall.

[golden coral]

So noted. I've not had that much experience with lag/ping on most of these playables, so maybe it would be better the way you're describing it. At the very least, it could be worth trying out. Though I doubt fixing this will make most of those playables any more popular. But I guess less unpopular might still be something.

[distant torrent]

calling teno too hopelessly powerful is pretty wild when it can be pinned and killed as adult by a few omnis and easily killed by two ceras lol

[shadow vortex]

Even one cera is enough when you puke.

And if they have a mutation that buffs their speed… Welp.

[hollow topaz]

The negative teno feedback lately is kinda funny, I hardly ever see them and when I do they’re usually getting destroyed by dibbles

[dusky surge]

i dont get it really lol. from what i've seen, tenos have been entirely sent to extinction because everyone who liked teno chooses dibble as their herbi brawler of choice, as it's much stronger

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message

Am I tripping or hasn’t this person suggested to nerf diablo like 5 times already

[dusky surge]

he has done it a fair bit yes

[shell summit]

the diablo barely recieves any damage to the head

and it makes sense

[golden coral]

Yeah, but that's a lot of damage negated. As it stands, it could probably take a good few rex bites to the face and live.

[slim dragon]

Maybe it would be better if it was a flat damage reduction rather than percentage

Or part-flat par-percent

[loud geyser]

they get obliterated by dilos and ceras too tbh

[dusky surge]

dilos, ehhh

dilos CAN kill tenos, but it kinda depends on them not knowing how easy dilo is to hard counter

dilo's in a real bad spot atm

cerato absolutely can nuke teno tho, that is 100% true

[loud geyser]

i agree but Teno is its best matchup since it can bait out attacks really good and tenos attacks are not very cost efficient

[dusky surge]

nah, teno has INSANELY cost efficient attacks atm lmao

[loud geyser]

definitely not compared to other playables at the moment

[golden coral]

Such as?

[loud geyser]

cerato who uses up no stam for a high damage attack that inflicts bacteria and has only the bite animation

or dibble with its big ass stun thats extremely high value and can be used while running

[loud geyser]

costs even less and has the same stun and you keep moving during the animation

[dusky surge]

true. but even then, teno's attacks are hardly exhausting. They're well costed for the attacks

[golden coral]

Well, they don't have stam cost at all, so fair. But teno, last I heard, have plenty of attacks to use, so it has pretty good costs for efficiency

[dusky surge]

yea, it has great efficiency, at least compared to stuff like, say, stego

[loud geyser]

stego is an obese guy trying to throw heavy punches with a lot of speed and an arm that is half its body length so it should use a lot of stam

[dusky surge]

i think the amount of stego stam consumption is WAAAY too high

big or not, an animal using its natural weapons should not exhaust it in a mere 6 swings

[loud geyser]

dont swing at every opportunity and you are fine tbh

you just need to protect your head

[dusky surge]

i think the fact that it costs almost 4x the jab is still stupid

its also just not really that fun or well implemented into the current stam system

[loud geyser]

the current stam system is a pain in general but the old one wasnt very good as well dont know which way to do it tbh

[dusky surge]

the current stam system is fine, as long as you don't have creatures waste colossal amounts of stam for doing basic things (stego, carno)

both stego and carno have horrible stamcosts that do not work well at all with the new stam system

[loud geyser]

ye but for stego it should be like this even though i dont get why they made carnos charge so expensive

[dusky surge]

galli too, to a small extent, but i think its trotrate makes up for how much its kick costs

[dusky surge]

i dont think it should be like this for either. Stego doesn't deserve to have disgustingly high stamcosts that make it even less fun to play

Especially since said power swing was meant to be its answer to large apexes like rex and so on

I honestly dont think ANY attack that isn't a continuous pin/stunlock/grab should cost that much stam

[loud geyser]

and it will be because you can charge it while running and stunning your enemy making it impossible for them to attack your head

[dusky surge]

with current balance? Stego is rex food. They need to buff it (or just un-nerf it) to make it viable against that powerehouse

[loud geyser]

stego is purely defenisve

[dusky surge]

and purely defensive creatures should not exhaust themselves for defending against prey lol

[loud geyser]

they should if they are a fat ass the power swing isnt supposed to be your default attack

[dusky surge]

If a tenontosaurus spends its entire stam bar kicking one opponent, and stego spends its entire stam bar powerswinging an opponent, tenontosaurus almost does as much damage in that one stambar

that's nuts.

[loud geyser]

its supposed to stun your enemy and follow up with a jab

[dusky surge]

By that logic, aevery creature remotely fat looking should just be tired in two seconds from any fighting

Fat or not, stego is built for that kind of combat. It would not exhaust itself doing it so quickly

[loud geyser]

it isnt if you play right

[dusky surge]

15% stam is too much for a basic attack.

[loud geyser]

you only power swing when your enemy sends it and then only take safe hits for example when trex goes in to grapple you

[dusky surge]

Deino's grab costs far less, and it can instantly kill anything below 4 tons, drains stam from whoever it hits, allows you to move your opponent to an environment that favours you and gives you a speed boost

[loud geyser]

then you stagger it with power swing and get a guaranteed head hit with a jab

[dusky surge]

(you can't even do that with the cooldown LMAO)

also rex's head is too high

[loud geyser]

the head hitbox extends until the ground or at least almost

you can hit carnos head with omnis bite or tenos kick

even tho they are way to low

[dusky surge]

Also devs have confirmed that the stamcost atm is way too high and was supposed to be fixed

[loud geyser]

they dont do it tho

[dusky surge]

what?

[loud geyser]

at least not next hordetest

[dusky surge]

we dont know that lol

[loud geyser]

they announced carno changes cera changes nv changes and map changes why not stego changes

[dusky surge]

because if stego was getting changed, it'd be more minor

simply a minor stam change

cera, troo and carno are apparently getting major changes

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter since they won't die, and now you're on cooldown, with massive stam loss at that. Stego currently has terrible stam costs, and desperately need fixing.

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter, 10 and 15% stam cost + cooldown is just terrible. Even the jab is rather costly for what it is, it could do with going down a little bit too.

[golden coral]

Wait what?

I kind of wish they'd rather fix the cooldown, because that one is silly, but even so, anything above 10%, or 5% really, is just too much stam cost for normal attacks, for any playable

[golden coral]

Huh, well then, that's great news!

What do you know, apparently stego is getting some help too!

[loud geyser]

they recieve a lot of damage tho and the matchup should be heavily rex favored which it isnt if stego has to many high damage stuns

[golden coral]

No, it should be stego favoured since rex can choose the fight

Also stego is only 6T, rex is probably a bit larger, unless stego gets upsized too

So even if you do hit it, it'll tank a hit or two, then crush you

Stego stam costs are utterly stupid, made even worse by the cooldown. 4% for the jab, 5% for the standing swing, 10% at most for the running. And even then, stego is pretty bad, so the attacks themselves could do with being made better (in the case of the jab) or just have cooldown removed in the case of the swing.

Also even if you did combine a swing into jab, you wouldn't do enough damage at that point to survive anyway

It'd be something like 4-5K if you got both headshots and the normal 1.5 multiplier applies, that's still 3+K away from making the other, larger guy die. And unless you can stunlock (terrible idea), then well, now you're open to being killed

[loud geyser]

youre not you can run until your cooldown is up again its probably not that much faster than you and you will be able to tank a few hits to the tail with the mitigation and even if he stays on your tail you can hit him again

[golden coral]

If you do, then you can't do a second attack to follow up, so then you lose out on the damage. And rex is decently fast.

Plus the massive stam cost, which is the issue

Rex can just run up next to you, it's faster, and you're on cooldown + can't attack while running so if you do attack you stop, and so on

Deinos used to be able to fight stego on land, I really can't see rex being any less agile/fast

[loud geyser]

it used to without power swing

[golden coral]

It can probably still do it now even with power swing, considering the cooldown, but the point there was mostly that you can get to a stego head quite easily

Because you can't both move/turn and attack, unlike most others

So if you want stego to be this defensive critter, then it needs to have efficient attacks to defend itself

Which when you have cooldown, clunky jab angles, and massive stam costs + new stam system isn't going to work out

And true enough, stego is a bad playable for what it is, diablo overshadows it

[loud geyser]

what if you do a power swing to stun a standing swing which is not affected by the cooldown then build distance wait for your cooldown and then repeat

[golden coral]

Yes, standing swing and running swing are both on cooldown

And if you stop to jab, you're not moving

Meaning the target will be out of stun, and can now attack back

[loud geyser]

whyd you stop to jab

[golden coral]

You're the one that suggested a follow up attack

Which means you're standing in the spot and attacking again, not running, yes?

You run up, do a powerswing, now if you attack again, you're not making distance. If you make distance, you miss out on damage. If the target has a stun immunity, and is fast enough, it can and will catch up, tank another hit, and then kill you (because if a rex gets its jaws on you, you're probably dead)

You also lost about 20% stam doing the first thing, so now you can't regen stam while trotting even if you made some distance

Cause running up, and running away, takes stam, plus the massive cost

You're not getting very far or doing much before you're out of steam

Even if the attack had only 10% cost, that's still rough, but maybe acceptable if there's also no cooldown

Mostly due to the main issue with stego being clunkyness, rather than outright stats

Imagine if rex crush took 15% stam, you'd be outattritioned quite easily honestly

[loud geyser]

hes already a lot of health down tho

[golden coral]

Out of 8-9K, it's a lot left

Stego only has 6K, and 2x weakness on head

Even deino kills it in only 6 bites, and it does 500 damage

Do you imagine rex will do about that damage at most then? So a stego can actually outdamage a rex if it keeps trying?

[loud geyser]

on the head

if you let him get your head you should die

[golden coral]

You can't prevent it, you're not fast or agile enough

That's the thing, even deino can keep up with your turning, since you can't both turn and attack

So unless you outdamage, enough that one hit or maybe two is enough to kill (and it shouldn't), then the rex can get to your head, at which point you're not hitting it's head, it's doing massive damage to you. If you turn to avoid, you can't attack, and if you attack, you're still being hit.

Not sure why this would be ideal over just lower damage, but better stam cost, attack ability, and overall engagement ability

[loud geyser]

youre faster than the deino how does it get to your head

you run tank a few hits and then either it backs up or you destroy it with a power swing to its head

[golden coral]

Because if you're in range to strike, you can't move out of that range without well, running, which means you can't do follow up strikes. That was my earlier point. And deino can be outrun, sure, it's very slow and has no stam on land. But rex is most likely quite a bit more capable on land, which is where the issue comes in.

If you do a swing, and then do a jab, you're giving the other guy the time to recover from the stun and counter. Which means if that counter is powerful enough, now you're in trouble. If you only do a swing and move, you don't get the extra damage. And if the target now has a stun immunity (to prevent stunlocks), it can run up next to you, tank an attack to get to your head, and now you're basically done for.

And if it wasn't for the cooldown, and the immense stamina cost, the hit and run would probably work. But with both cooldown + that very high cost, you have little room to do much, especially if the other guy does not have that level of stam cost + cooldowns too.

But to be fair, rex might get that level of clunkyness, in which case it'd probably be fine

Could give it a 3 second cooldown on it's attacks too, plus making it so it requires at least two attacks on stego head to kill it, thus making it more of a neccesity to ambush the stego than outright fight it, since if it's a fight, stego could dish out as much damage as rex and whoever hit the other one first would win if so.

[dusky surge]

honestly? if we're talking about tankiness, diablo has it beat LMAO

[loud geyser]

youre right on that, stupid idea, but what if you hit its head and stun it dont follow up but instead run until your cooldown is up again it probably wont even get to your body with the distance you build and then power swing again to stun run until the head is at the tip of your tail and start spamming out normal right clicks he will probably die before you

[loud geyser]

dibble face tanks deino💀💀💀

[golden coral]

That could work, but it depends on the rex speed in this case. Stego isn't really fast, and there's the whole stamina cost issue. You've lost run time by just running up + attacking, and then running away. And since you're starting to run away pretty much at the face of the rex after the swing, I don't know how well that would go. Granted, the rex might be out of stun immunity by the time it catches up, so it could work to deter it or eventually kill it. But from what we know, rex is pretty fast, and far more likely to be able to dodge a stego swing, especially a highly visually telegraphed one, than a deino for example.

It's mostly that there's little need for the overdone nerfs, both cooldown + massive stamina cost + old jab attack not being very good (very clunky) does not make for a fun or good playable, specific encounter with rex or not really

[golden coral]

Dibble facetanks 6 powerswings from stego to its face apparently

Very tanky critter

[loud geyser]

if you want you can power swing and run power swing and run again when your off cooldown and then spam away with attacks definitely killing it before you but you will get out with like 10% stam or something so its gonna be close

[loud geyser]

thats because dibble is hella op not because stego deals no damage

[golden coral]

I know, but it's still funny

[loud geyser]

making dibble 3 tons was stupid just make it faster than allo like who cares if its speed is realistic

[golden coral]

Well, they liked the size of it, that's really it. I don't think it was so much for balance vs allo or anything else.

Just "dibble in legacy was about this size/weight, and it was good"

[loud geyser]

most reasonable the isle balance decision

[golden coral]

I mean, they can balance a 3T dibble, it's hardly impossible. And they are going to adjust its agility from what I know.

So it's mostly that people find it a bit odd that dibble got upsized, instead of being a smaller ceratopsian

Or well, kept legacy size I guess

[loud geyser]

thats what i find stupid too

add styracosaurus for this weight class and make dibble 1.4 tons again

makes much more sense

[alpine plover]

No

[loud geyser]

why not

if they want a 3 ton ceratopsian just add like styracosaurus

or just dont add a ceratopsian around that weight

[alpine plover]

nothing wrong with dibble being 3 tons

obviously it’s double its irl weight but if the devs have a reason, we simply can’t do much.

[loud geyser]

why would you add it if you want a 3 ton ceratopsian

[alpine plover]

That’s something you ask the devs, like I said they have a reason for so

[vale harness]

yea im not a big carno small game hunter. i think if it lives off smaller dinos cause of its speed and hunting stratagy thats fine, but i'm not a fan of making it awful at trying to stand up for itself against any dino its size, whether or not it can catch carno. teno got all stamina for its attacks drastically reduced and some of its competition only got nerfs. with how much damage a kick does i dont like the fact that you now have damn near infinite of them. losses so much skill expression. cera getting the slight rework and omni being very strong has brought back some competition, but not enough imo

[golden coral]

Fair, but it's how the devs want it to be it seems. Not a critter that is meant to go up vs larger things (though teno might still be on the menu, depending on changes to it's size). But like, cera, and I'm guessing bigger things are not really for a carno to hunt (especially not cera with changes). So I don't think they want it to go after similar sized or larger prey, unless maybe in packs.

As for teno, yes I've heard it has really good stamina efficiency, but that's also well, pretty much it. It's just overall a good playable, but ceras can take them out, carno currently can (though the charge is so bad), omnis can, and so on. But yeah, I can agree that teno does have perhaps too many attacks, meanwhile stego has too few as it were. Both of them could do with some stamina adjustments.

[leaden remnant]

just remove all 👍

[dusky surge]

remove all what lol

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message

[dusky surge]

oh no

no thats a bad idea lol

[slim dragon]

Replace them with curves
Every problem known to mankind solved

[leaden remnant]

best idea ever

replace em with curves and everyone is happy

[coarse blaze]

I'm glad only one person has checkmarked that

[slim dragon]

2

[coarse blaze]

They checkmarked it themselves, it does not count.

[vale harness]

yea definetly. just different opinions on carno from both of us, which is all good. although i feel like everything besides carno has gotten its stam usage reduced a lot. maybe besides stego but still most have gotten their attack consistency buffed

[golden coral]

Well, carno is getting the charge buffed, no cooldown, much less stam cost, so it's being put in line with the others on that account. And apparently stego swing might get some adjustments, at least for the running one when it comes to stamina too. I personally think a smaller carno can work out, or well, if omni grapple also gets adjusted, because otherwise it'll be painful.

[hasty coyote]

pounce to pin is just painful to begin with

[leaden remnant]

@wooden pier then raptors would become absolute fodder for gallis

cant fight em, cant outrun them, cant outstam them, cant out turn them, cant get on high places to evade them

[wooden pier]

fair point

[leaden remnant]

@viscid schooner

better if it wasn't a death sentence (damage wise) but could be bleed wise

cause almost 2 hours of growth just to die to being pinned by a single raptor is just

[vale brook]

keep pin on galli, let galli kick knock over omnis again

[leaden remnant]

^^

[wooden pier]

yeah i know thats bs

[leaden remnant]

it's just atrocious

[wooden pier]

oh they prevented it from kicking down omnis?

[leaden remnant]

yes

[wooden pier]

damn bro i didnt even know thats sad

[leaden remnant]

literally just give it back and the matchup is fair now

[vale brook]

not only fair, but likely one of the most fun fights in the game

[leaden remnant]

also that

[frail bobcat]

@tiny sigil

[golden coral]

@tiny sigil If you have to constantly eat, it's not going to be very fun for you. Far better then to add more to the gameplay loop, and more interesting ways for herbis to get food, without having them just need to eat more/more often. Food scarcity is good, and herbi competition should be a thing, but it should preferably be due to well, less amount of food available, rather than having to constantly look for/eat food. And it's not really a problem that carnis struggle, they should. Herbis should be far more plentyful overall for a good ecosystem.

And well, carnis overall are the more popular option, more often than not. So I'm not sure we need to make herbi life harder if carni is still plenty popular enough, last thing we need is less herbis after all.

[tiny sigil]

its popular rithe now becas its so toxic they would chast eat full and get toxic again

[frail bobcat]

did you see the chart I posted

herbis are in the minority, on a server where herbies are more popular

[distant torrent]

I honestly wonder what this would’ve looked like before the addition of diablo, an actual good herbivore that’s not teno

[frail bobcat]

like half the herbies

[distant torrent]

we need more good herbivores

out of 6 herbivores, I personally only consider 2/6 actually worth the time lol and that’s diablo and teno

stego got gutted after its rekit

pachy needs some help in a couple different departments

dryo doesn’t have burrowing + just a walking little snack bar for everything aside from ptera

hypsi doesn’t have climbing + its spit is in desperate need of changes

just the shortened version of what’s wrong with them to spare the details

[tiny sigil]

Problem is, the hunger system for Herbivores is much better than for Carnivores. When a Carnivore wants to change its location, it often ends up starving. On the other hand, Herbivores can smell a little bit around and find food for their perfect diet. That's why so many players choose to play Herbivores—because it's much easier and they're much stronger than Carnivores. Convince the Discord chat with my text.

[coarse blaze]

Herbivores have to go to specific places to maybe get a perfect diet, most of the MZs don't spawn enough food for a lot of species or simply don't have all the nutrients there, even on a fresh MZ. Unless you're playing a very small species that requires very little food, you likely won't have a perfect diet the majority of the time. You sound like someone who hasn't played a lot of herbivores.

Carnivores absolutely have it easier with diet management and here's why.

• AI spawns in high levels around multiple players, meaning hotspots always have food.

• The cannibalism mutation means you can eat your own kind without any negative effects.

• You can literally eat whatever you want with the exclusion of ptera via organs to get a perfect diet.

Herbivore options for a perfect diet are

• Go to your MZ every 1-2 hours and hope there's enough of every nutrient, Swamps lack dots entirely for adults.

• MZs are shared so if food does spawn, you'll be competing for it. For most herbivores, one visit of S isn't going to be enough to fill it.

• You didn't fill your diet and there's no more food? Well, you'll have to wait for the next one and hope it's better.

• Mushrooms in your infant state.

I've grown every one of my carnivores outside of hotspots this update just fine.

[frail bobcat]

Did you see the graph? Literally more than double the people are playing and being sucessfull as carni

[coarse blaze]

#balance-feedback message I can't believe how many people upvoted this, herbivores decay the same as carnivores, in fact needing to eat pretty often and the reason why you see these "massive groups" is because they all go to the same place to eat via MZ. Meaning even less food for them all as a collective.

[slim dragon]

Actually most carnivores have slower hunger drain than herbivores

[coarse blaze]

Not according to them

I took a gander though and all of their suggestions aside from one have been about herbivores being too strong. Teno and pachy were specifically mentioned, the rest were either buffing omni or about carno.

I'll just never not be baffled when someone just puts misinformation in the feedback section and people blindly agree because they don't like said thing.

[distant torrent]

my personal favorite

[hollow glacier]

loving it

[distant torrent]

this is honestly right on the mark though. I’ve had a far easier time with diet as a carnivore than as an herbivore

as an herbivore, you have a hard capped amount of food that goes fast if you’re a decently sized herbivore and other people want to play the same species or end up with the same migration, but as a carnivore, you can quite literally have an endless amount. there are no limits to how many things can be killed and littered around

all of my herbivore grows only had two diets at best after the initial sanc mushroom diets withered off

[distant torrent]

not to mention the bigger the server cap, the less the server can support herbivores

because migrations don’t scale with player numbers

if a migration can barely support 10 or so dibbles (for example) on a 100 player server, it’s still only going to be able to barely support 10 dibbles on a 200 or even 300 player server. the food competition would be insane between more people playing so you’d have more people flocking to play carnivore because herbivore migrations would be so terrible and not worth the time from overcrowding

[dusky surge]

@tropic horizon it used to have a much lower cost and no cooldown (and more damage)

and while the original stamcost was too low, they absolutely overnerfed it, especially for a move added in response to rex's coming arrival

[tropic horizon]

Yeah and now the attack is pretty much useless outside of like, dealing with a single Diablo who doesn’t know that he can just ignore your attack and playable by pressing m1.

[dusky surge]

yup

it's funny too, because omniraptor/cerato/deino/diablo were already with options to deal with the new stego, and they were the main people complaining about it

[tropic horizon]

Man this whole patch has made me realize how absolutely pathetic stego truly is lol.

[dusky surge]

oh it is, but you tell anyone, and they'll disagree on principle of it being OP due to its flat surface level numbers

but any peek below the hood of just damage/health, and you realise this thing has more weaknesses than any other creature in the entire game

no bleed resistance, vulnerability to headshots, exceptionally slow animations (all of which are immediately cancelled by stun), godawful stamina efficiency, an unnecessary cooldown on top of a stance-swapping animation, bizarre control bindings that add to the clunkiness, so on, so forth

[tropic horizon]

God I didn’t bring that up but the power swing is the most unwieldy move in the whole game and that’s saying a lot when Pachy’s ram exists

Like half of the time I played I’d have a very clear shot to erase something that made a mistake and then my stego would just, swing in the other direction as if it was fighting the voices in its head

[dusky surge]

yep. its still missing clear QoL features, but it got nerfs before it got those

stego rides on the ideal of the fact that most of the roster can't fight it, and those who can, generally require a level of skill to do so

but now diablo is out, and we can see what even a 3 ton creature with a decent kit can do to it

also the narrative that it's OP because it does a lot of damage and has more health than our current roster does, although deino has literally always been better than it, just more specialised

[hasty coyote]

People try to balance it around the current roster, not realizing it’s like balancing teno to fight Troodons and not ceras and omnis.

[leaden remnant]

@copper saddle theres a lotta counters btw

2nd ability with most counters paired with herrera jump

[hasty coyote]

@loud geyser they did something similar before. There were a few patches where pachy's ram would make its turn radius worse (it could still stagger at the time too), all it did was allow smaller targets to bully pachy and did nothing to help larger targets juke it. The changes you propose would just make pachy worse at dealing with things its own size, something it NEEDS to be good at because its so slow compared to them, and make it oppressive to larger things, which it should not entirely be.

What pachy needs is a fracture rework so that 90% of its power budget isnt going to bone break. Namely, fractures need to allow the target to stand their ground easier, but much worse at chasing down things. Stuff like body fracture maybe burning less stam, but makes turning worse. Head fracture not reducing damage as much, but blinding more while moving. And leg fracture no longer disabling alt attacks and not reducing speed as much, but doing something like if you sprint or use attacks the effects get worse/inflict bleed damage to yourself. Then we could do something where being fractured inflicts a stun (kinda like how if herrera falls from too high and breaks its own leg, it also knocks itself over, but to a lesser degree). Now pachy is much better at breaking and running from larger targets, and is still very strong against small tiers (potentially even gets buffs against small tiers seeing how much omni is being power crept).

[loud geyser]

you rarely ever use your right click against omnis or dilos tho i only use it when I catch them off guard when wanting to heal or when they are shrugged off on a tree or knocked down by me or run against something while i chase them on all of these occasions the changes i proposed wouldnt matter at all your alt attack is just better in every way fighting smaller targets with more damage output per knockdown less stam usage and being easier to hit

[loud geyser]

thats exactly what i dont like just fracturing their leg and running away even if you are in a group isnt fun thats the problem and also why no one really choses to play pachy anymore the people i play the isle with also say they want the stagger back because you arent able to punch above your weight at all even when in a group

[hasty coyote]

I use it very commonly against omnis and especially dilos since their agility is poor. If they don't respect the threat range of ram its really good (when it functions correctly and doesnt bug out on a 5 degree incline). Ram is harder to land I will admit, but it does MUCH more damage and can fracture which is very useful. Charged ram deals 125, and alt does around 55 last I checked, so its generally better imo to ram and then get a second ram to get 2 fractures at once.

[hasty coyote]

Its not that pachy is forced to fracture and run is why its not played, its the fact that its ram is very clunky atm and pachy is entirely outclassed by omni. However, even currently, you can 100% punch above your own weight class, just not well in a 1v1. 1v2 gets much more easy for pachy because if the larger dino looks at one pachy, the 2nd can ram behind it. Without alts it can't counter attack easily.

Even then, the issue is that pachy should not be able to just stun lock targets to death, especially those bigger than it. Should it be able to group up and bully something like carno or cera to death? Definitely, but it has to be a bit costly to do so. Otherwise we get spiro pachy where it would 1v1 and stunlock carnos to death with very little counterplay other than "kill it before it hits you" (which is also why I hate the omni v pachy matchup atm).

Hence why my suggestion is to make fractures less powerful so we can actually make pachy itself powerful instead. If fractures are designed to allow it to break and run, pachy's own stats should allow it to beat things to death with a lead pipe.

[loud geyser]

I dont agree since 80% of the time you only get one fracture when knocking him down since when you hit a omnis head for example youre probably hitting its head again exept if you run around it to its side which most of the time takes to long because the omnie when hit from the front gets knocked very far back and when you hit its leg youre better off spamming away with alt attacks because he is pretty much dead already and spamming alt attacks has a much higher damage output per second than RMB has when you hit its body you are gonna hit its body again since its crush also fractures body like everytime and you dont have enough time for a charged RMB since you have to turn around and build distance first and then turn thats why i would rather dish out maximum damage by alt attacking in this scenario as well

[loud geyser]

if you stand your ground and alt attack you just cook pachys in a 1v2 you can easily track them both as well if youre 1v3 especially if you are the agressor and get a charge off first or just follow one of them to bait em as cera and keep your eyes at the others alt biting when they want to charge headbutt you

[loud geyser]

thats why hitting your stagger should be much harder since if you miss 1 youre basically dead carno can just follow you and bite you after you fall to the ground and cera can charge its bite while youre on the ground bite you as soon as he reaches you and spam away with bites youre probably dead before you get out of bite range

[hasty coyote]

Even then, 2 alts is around 110-120 damage if i have my numbers right, ram is 100% 125 damage since I tested it recently, so its still better to ram. Plus, you can angle yourself to get the correct fracture in the time, i have seen people do it to my dilo consistently. Either way, its more of personal taste for how exacty you play a dino. However, I disagree with removing options in combat because then it makes the dino worse since it only has 1 game plan. Thats why teno is consistently good, it has a wide variety of attack with different uses.

[loud geyser]

its just a much more all in playstyle requiring you to hit youre rmbs and really pick your fights carefully

[leaden remnant]

pachy soloing 2 carnos ptsd

[hasty coyote]

if you do that, alt one way, then the second pachy can break your leg. Fight is then a slow slug fest from there.

[leaden remnant]

if pachy gets stun back we are doomed

[loud geyser]

you cant reposition and full charge your ram in time i believe and its way easier to knock down with your alt as well especially since you are able to cancel utahs pounce with your alt attack

[hasty coyote]

so basically, the entire fight is still based on pachy's skill. If pachy is able to land its hits, you get stunlocked and die, if it misses it dies. That feels unfun for both parties imo. Especially since that makes break and run even more difficult because you HAVE to land the first hit or die.

[loud geyser]

thats why it shouldnt come back in the form it was

[leaden remnant]

it shouldnt come back at all 😭

with what you suggested, it's such an easy kill again

ambush, leg break, proceed to stun him into oblivion

if you play pachy only to kill people, the problem isn't pachy

[loud geyser]

people want it back even stronger than what i suggested it seems

[hasty coyote]

except pachy is slower than all of its threats, so it can't pick its fights until it already leg fractured something. Which means pachy is awful at defending itself but incredibly good at just beating things to death once it lands a hit.

thats literally the opposite of what pachy should do

[leaden remnant]

those people are genuinely crazy

update 6 pachy wasnt enough for them

[leaden remnant]

downvotes and upvotes mean nothing

you can suggest one thing and it has 20 upvotes, and then someone else suggests that 2 days after adn he's got 2 upvotes

[hasty coyote]

Imo, pachy should have stuns, but a LIMITED NUMBER of stuns. Namely, make stuns on fractures. so you get 3 stuns, thats all. Its great for break and run, and it allows you to leave your opponent crippled before leaving them to the elements if you wish. If you want to beat it to death, then its going to be a bit more difficult.

[loud geyser]

but 28 to 11 downovotes and 0 upvotes and 8 downvotes is a huge difference

[leaden remnant]

upvotes and downvotes mean nothing

they just mean nothing

it doesn't mean the idea is good or bad

[loud geyser]

thats not what i am saying but it shows what the people active in that channel prefer

[hasty coyote]

could be the way people interpret it. Simply saying "give pachy stun back" could mean a lot of different things, hence why people tend to upvote it.

[leaden remnant]

i mean yeah, but what they prefer means very lil

[hasty coyote]

Like me saying "buff carno" could be interpreted as "buff carno's hp and damage" or "buff carno's stamina" or 100s of different things.

[leaden remnant]

if we're talking about specifically game balance, giving pachy stuns back is just a terrible idea

gives pachies the ability to actively hunt and kill other people, and directly go against what they've been made to do, which is bonk and run

trading hits might not be cool but it's either that or update 6 pachies

and you can solo a cera as a pachy rn so

[loud geyser]

pachy isnt fun anymore tho

[leaden remnant]

just not carnos unless the first hit is a legbreak and terrain isnt as

[hasty coyote]

even then, majority rule is not how this game should be balanced. Thats how you end up balancing things for the lowest common denominator and in favor of more popular dinos. Which allows those who are good to absolutely abuse popular dinos and unpopular dinos to go extinct.

[leaden remnant]

the issue is that i see is that fun for you means go around murdering everything (at least that's what i see based on the convo)

[loud geyser]

i didnt say that i only said people seem to want it back as it was in update 6 what i think is bad

[leaden remnant]

your definition of fun pachy would mean what's been haunting players and made pachy the most hated playable in this game, which is stun people like that

if your suggestion got implemented, we'd have pachies that ambush you, get a leg break and proceed to stun you till you die

that might be fun for you but not for anyone else

and it wouldn't have counterplay for things like ceras and tenos

which is, well, really bad

they'd be able to catch up and stun you till you die

[leaden remnant]

run? it's faster. fight back? that's impossible

[loud geyser]

ye but how would you make this playable enjoyable again right now its just find no other pachys since nobody plays it and just get killed by 8 omni pack since youre forced to be solo or break a leg and run away

not fun at all might as well remove

[leaden remnant]

what do you believe is not fun

[hasty coyote]

thats for a lot of reasons other than stunlocking things to death imo. Especially since balance predicates 1 animal's fun.

Namely:
1: pachy has been nerfed repeatedly before the stuns were removed (the main thing making it strong) and now its incredibly underpowered.
2: pachy's power budget is very heavily weighted towards it relying on the very strong fractures, which makes the base animal weaker
3: ram is incredibly clunky, from hitting something in the tail breaking its head, to not moving anywhere on a 5 degree incline, to launching yourself off a 5 degee decline, to the self stun on miss, pachy feels incredibly unweildy.
4: its entirely outclassed by omni atm. A single pounce is enough to bleed a pachy to death, 2 omnis just 1-shot a pachy with pin. 2 pachies have a hard time punching up, while 2 omnis can 1-shot a cera with pin. Pachy can actually lose to things its own size and smaller, omni can just pin thing its own size and smaller. omni is literally faster, stronger and overall just better version of pachy.

[leaden remnant]

like what parts of it do you believe are not fun

[leaden remnant]

are you sure pachy is underpowered

[loud geyser]

exactly those i described

[leaden remnant]

can you state em real quick, i don't think i got all the points

[vale brook]

full grown pachy getting pinned by 2 juvie raptors is based 🔥

[leaden remnant]

that's not pachy being underpowered

that's some goofy ahh thing happening

[hasty coyote]

pachy itself is underpowered, fractures are over powered.

[vale brook]

pachy definitely exists

[loud geyser]

you dont find solo omnis or dilos to fight since they are all in packs while you cant find a pack since nobody plays the dino anymore and hit trading isnt fun as well if its two carnos you can just give up

[leaden remnant]

alr so you basically wanna take on entire packs by yourself

[loud geyser]

no fun aspects in its playstyle

[leaden remnant]

just no

[loud geyser]

I dont chose to fight bro

[leaden remnant]

i know

[loud geyser]

they do

[leaden remnant]

but if you're able to beat the crap outta an entire pack by yourself, i wonder what 2 ppl are able to do

[loud geyser]

I WANT PACK MEMBERS BUT THERE ARE NONE IF PACHYS PLAYSTYLE STAYS LIKE THIS

read my message

[leaden remnant]

pachy is pretty much advertised as the fun ruiner

[loud geyser]

of course i dont think pachy should 1v8 utahs

[leaden remnant]

so youre not wrong

should probably do some tweaks here and there to make pachy very fun, just not combat related

[loud geyser]

I found packs in spiro tho and the people i play with arent playing pachy anymore because they think its boring to just hit trade carnos or ceras

[leaden remnant]

yeah i agree with that

[loud geyser]

tell me how

[leaden remnant]

i haven't got enough time to think about it

in short i have no idea

[leaden remnant]

and the thing here is that they played pachy only cause of the combat aspect, not anything else

[loud geyser]

Exactly thats why it should be brought back in some form or another

[leaden remnant]

no 😭

[vale brook]

this convo is making me want to go onto a free admin server and mess with pachy just to feel how bad it is

[loud geyser]

yes

[leaden remnant]

if they played an op thing only cause they were able to go insane without any penalty, it doesn't mean it should be brought back

[hasty coyote]

Heres my solution:
1: nerf fractures so that the target can defend itself easier, but chasing becomes nearly impossible. (along the lines of what I said above)
2: fix ram's clunkiness
3: buff pachy's base stats so that is a real threat alone, but not too oppressive in small groups. omni and dilo should struggle in a 1v1 against pachy, and 3 good pachies or 4 decent pachies should be a threat to most things around carno's current size and smaller.

now you have a solid playable that has a debilitating effect, but isnt so oppressive you can't fight back.

[leaden remnant]

im on a free admin server, i can get on pachy and show you it's not bad at all

[vale brook]

new fractures should apply stuns. 3 stuns max for any animal

pachy needs literally anything at this point to become a decent playable because it is genuinely the worst herbivore in the game

[leaden remnant]

adding stuns is a terrible idea

[loud geyser]

im coming which server

[leaden remnant]

norden since we'll all have admin

[loud geyser]

alr

[vale brook]

but your own ability stunning you isnt a terrible idea?

[leaden remnant]

if you can spam it we got an abhorrent problem

because then it would be legitimately unkillable

[loud geyser]

Teno has it stego has it and both are alright

[vale brook]

if you got stunned for missing? sure, whatever. thats fine.

you however get stunned for properly using your ability

[leaden remnant]

nothing would ever kill it besides stego deino and dibble

oh hold on wait wait wait

[loud geyser]

i proposed only getting stunned if yyou miss

[vale brook]

so you properly use your ability, and still sacrifice like half your health

[leaden remnant]

thought you were talking about being stunned if you don't miss

[leaden remnant]

nah not even close

[vale brook]

yes actually, smack a cerato and you simply sit there while it bites you

[leaden remnant]

head fracture and headshot reduction, you get some damage but little

[leaden remnant]

do you wanna hop on eu norden real quick

[vale brook]

i am on the US server

[leaden remnant]

eh frick it ill join the us one

less ppl, less ping, etc

[loud geyser]

Im on EU tho

[leaden remnant]

if you could please join us then

[hasty coyote]

I'm down to hop on too

[leaden remnant]

ofc

[regal tulip]

The problem I see with pachy is that it could become the bully it was on spiro quite easily with just a few buffs. If the dino you bone break can't hit back while you do it, what is stopping me from literally stalking that dino and bonking it over and over again? The dino itself is fun but griefers will make the lives of others miserable if it gets any stronger again.

[leaden remnant]

^^

[loud geyser]

so you can basically remove it since its either not fun or busted

[loud geyser]

you coming EU?

[regal tulip]

It's fine where it is right now balance wise, you trade a bite for a bone break and run away.

[loud geyser]

its not fun tho

nobody plays it

[leaden remnant]

got more ping and desync there

[regal tulip]

That's a different thing all together

[leaden remnant]

so no point

[loud geyser]

no it isnt

it got played a lot on spiro but no more

[regal tulip]

Balance and fun are different things, ofc it's more fun to bully others without risk, I played a ton of pachy on spiro because it was just that strong

It wasn't fun for the others tho, nor balanced

[loud geyser]

you can as well remove it then tho nobody plays it and it isnt fun

[loud geyser]

wont play then tho look at this

im just body fractured at the end

[leaden remnant]

wtf is that

@hasty coyote i have to wait 250 minutes

how do i fix that

[hasty coyote]

Ah yeah that. Try spawning and dying in a bunch of spots, I think you can only have 4 locked max.

[leaden remnant]

alr

[regal tulip]

Thats a visual bug and the normal 10 min timer goes down when you don't directly look at it, best is to chill in skin select or something

[leaden remnant]

yus

[regal tulip]

Did the unlocking through dying in different areas also work? Would love to know if that max 4 locked areas call is legit

[leaden remnant]

nope

[distant torrent]

@tight cove it’s base for attacks that aren’t alt aren’t 275? that’s actually the first time I’m hearing this so I’m really curious

[hasty coyote]

Alt does 300 last I checked

The other numbers are all right tho

[obtuse ocean]

So bad, i can facetank a dibble even tho its like 7x time bigger

[tight cove]

Yeah for at least the gore attack and the running attack it isn’t 275 unfortunately, for the gore attack I think it’s about 100 dmg and for the running attack it’s 150

That’s the main reason why Diablo feels like it doesn’t do a ton of damage sometimes since if you only get to knock someone down your doing very little dmg.

[distant torrent]

everything aside from alt needs to do a base 275 damage like it says in the tab menu

[hasty coyote]

personally I want the attacks to have different damages since they have very different animations lengths. Dealing the same on a gore attack and a spar attack as a base attack kinda feels bad imo. Also, dealing so much on a charge attack is a bit strong, since it already has very generous cc thresholds.

[cobalt dagger]

These are extremely good points

[cobalt dagger]

This is a good point too; If you play raptor, it's popular enough that you can find raptor friends. If you play Pachy, it's so unpopular and rare that you will never find a herd of your own kind. You will fight every fight outnumbered because of this. Due to being slower than raptors, you can never escape them and will be forced to fight.

I agree that Pachy shouldn't be allowed to kill raptor packs. Instead, we need to brainstorm some way for it to ESCAPE raptor packs, and such escape method ought to be not-guaranteed (It is a pack of raptor after all) and preferably skill based.

Such 'possible' escape does not currently exist. You will most likely die to even two or three raptors, no pack required, and no chance of escape regardless of skill or strategy beyond staying in the most empty parts of the map to stay away from raptors - Simply 'not being in the area' is the BEST form of hiding and also the most BORING. It basically means getting the saltwater mut and eating grass with no diet in the middle of nowhere and never see anyone, friend or foe. Boring, but you'll live.

[hasty coyote]

I think if pachy was made less bad, it would pretty much entirely solve this issue. Since if its less bad, it can put up a better fight and would be more popular so you can actually find a group.

However, pachy's design kinda makes fighting multiple opponents difficult and makes flat out murdering things of a similar size the normal option. So a pack of omnis should be a difficult fight for pachy. the only way I see it working is if pachy is givin some good base stats, fractures are more debilitating while chasing, the bucking changes make it actually good, and the pachy is good enough to hit each omni once and then book it. Pachies do have some insane stamina though, so they can run further than an omni, but the issue is bleed.

[stark knoll]

@shell crag https://youtu.be/qS9jzAvH-RI?si=xPuxxw62GnH3Ep0q

[shell crag]

with 5x video speed and using the less stam u can
and jumping from a high place

[stark knoll]

https://youtu.be/thA9xHBLkX4

[halcyon torrent]

Imma be honest here, why are there so many people asking for stego buffs? Things 1 hit most of the roster and is a herbivore whose attacks are supposed to be for self-defense, not offense, which in my existence it's really good at.

[dusky surge]

because it's more than just those numbers

many of its attacks SUCK for self-defence, ironically, because they literally leave the stegosaurus more open to counterattack and drain its stamina, the resource it uses to survive most things

stego seems strong if you dont play it

it also has so many weaknesses exclusive just to it

[halcyon torrent]

I've been able to swing without stamina, and most battles I can win by locking down in an area, say for if I'm facing a bunch of raptors who are really good, and even then I take out a few. Though I think the grow time is alot.

Also, herras are the bain of my existence as a stego.

[dusky surge]

the growtime is literally one of the only nerfs it got last HT that I think it deserved

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

wouldnt you just use this carno to murder big things like cerato

literally two charges and a bite would kill a cerato lmao

also how the hell are you going to manage to spend 10 whole seconds sprinting in charge to do max damage LMAO

[cobalt dagger]

If it had a way to escape raptors somehow, that would also make it less bad.

I agree to making pachy good enough to 'hit each omni once and run' - Like, not good enough that it's easy to do that, just good enough that it's possible to do that with skill.

[dusky surge]

apparently some animals are getting "violent bucks" like the allo

so give one of those to pachy

[leaden remnant]

the complaint is about regen not pool

[eternal oak]

@runic surge Holy Busted, that is the most overpowered thing I’ve heard for carno

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[dusky surge]

i mean... 10 seconds of sprinting is a ridiculous level of windup, but 600 damage is def overpowered lmao

[eternal oak]

Fr

[dusky surge]

also how does it make it a small game hunter at ALL lmao

when in a small game hunt would you ever need to do 600 damage

[eternal oak]

Casually 1 shots Omni

[eternal oak]

As much as I hate the small game hunter thing, 600 damage is so unbelievably busted and unnecessary

If stego takes 2 times damage on head shots, and it has 6000 hp or so, that means carno would be able to 5 shot stego

And that, is overkill

[dusky surge]

yup lol

it also just doesn't need to exist. it doesn't add anything to its kit and arguably just makes it even more weird to play

[runic surge]

Did you even read what i wrote, it would become borderline impossible for the carno to turn once its charged enough so u can just literally move out of its way, and carno used to oneshot utah with its charge anyway, plus this game already is ridden with oneshots from other abilities like tennos kick into another on utsh and diablos charge into more atracks, so i dont see how sometjing that has to charge for a very long time and use up a significant amoubt of stamina for a potential oneshot is all that op

[dusky surge]

carno can still oneshot omni, if it headshots

also 10 seconds is still absurd. 600 damage in general on the carno is just entirely overkill

[runic surge]

Sure it does alot of damage, but if you need to sacrifice about 40% of ur stamina for an attack to actually do some real damage to turn a hunt in your favor, which cant instantly be negated if the prey sees you and gets out of the way

What would the maximum damage you suggest be then

[dusky surge]

also carno's charge is being retooled to cost much less stamina and have no cooldown

[dusky surge]

200-250, ideally. The current value (350) is way too high for it, and especially if it's being downsized

Also, carno's charge damage does not scale with distance atm

Only the knockdown range does

[runic surge]

So then why would u ever charge and use ur stamina if it does only that amount of damage

Im aware it doesnt scale the damage

[golden coral]

Isn't the entire issue exactly that, you can just turn and avoid the charge. Why are we still on that, rather than making carno good at actually running after and down something.

[dusky surge]

because new charge costs basically no stamina

and 200-250 damage + knockdowns is not nearly a bad amount

[runic surge]

Which is why i wanted it to change so it did to reward more of a setup rather than just tap charge for easy damage

[dusky surge]

a 10 second setup is literally impossible with the restrictions you gave to charge LMAO

carno moves way too fast to take any value from that

[golden coral]

Charge shouldn't even really be about damage, but about knockdown/stopping power to guarantee a kill via bites

[dusky surge]

^

[runic surge]

Could be right, those are always changeable

[golden coral]

That would allow for a very terrifying carno but also prevent it from just murdering an entire pack in one go

[dusky surge]

honestly, bite should the damage dealer, not charge

[runic surge]

Its more of just a concept being thrown out

[golden coral]

If you have to stop to bite and kill, then you can't just charge one omni after another and kill them that way

And while you're biting one downed one, the others can scatter and now you won't get them

[slim dragon]

The suggested change would turn carno into a "sprint through the whole jungle and hope you bump into something" niche

[dusky surge]

(also ambush carno bad)

[runic surge]

Idk how they would keep its “brawler” identity after this downsize tho

Like i love carno but feel like it has like no real identity in the game atm

[dusky surge]

it never had a brawler identity (nor should it have one) lol

cerato is the brawler, idk why carno would ever be a brawler

[runic surge]

Because people play it like it

[dusky surge]

it has no agility, no moves to defend its flanks well, no way to consistently do high damage output in a brawl scenario

[slim dragon]

You can't be a brawler if you don't have arms

[runic surge]

Thats rude bubu its not its fault

[slim dragon]

Then should pachy be turned into a specialized mixpacking animal because people play it this way ?

[slim dragon]

Rude is my middle name

[runic surge]

No? Obviously not, and pachy just sucks ass rn if it isnt mixpacking

[dusky surge]

carno's identity is a "bullet train with a mouth". It's a fast pursuit hunter that stays in plains and runs down small game with its superior speed.

The ambush and brawler niches are consequences of it being terrible at its job for so long

[runic surge]

Sure but anything small just dodges it on repeat until its out of stam so it cant even do that unless the prey is completely oblivious

[dusky surge]

which is why new carno is insanely stam efficient

[runic surge]

Like current or new smaller one?

[dusky surge]

new smaller one

[runic surge]

Alright, well i hope thats right

[dusky surge]

current one sucks ass and is efficient at nothing

[runic surge]

Yea pretty much

[dusky surge]

on the stream, its charge looks effectively indistinguishable from regular sprinting LMAO

and it has no cooldown

it's absolutely wild, this thing will be a menace in plains to small critters

[runic surge]

That seems a bit wack yeah

[brave estuary]

As in how big the stamina pool is? Can you elaborate

[dusky surge]

its charge costs basically nothing

[brave estuary]

Ah ye

It would be nice if it had one of the best stamina pools in the game. It just feels like a good runner and should be

[jovial vessel]

wait, new carno? huh?

[dusky surge]

you don't know?

carno's getting a large rework next update which reduces its weight but buffs its charge in multiple ways

[jovial vessel]

been out of the loop of the isle for a hot hot while XD
Interesting though, so it will do less damage overall bc its smaller/lighter? I loathe carno's in evrima tbh, they feel too strong for what they are atm

[dusky surge]

we don't know much about stats outside of weight. It will weigh 1.3 tons though, down from 1.8

[jovial vessel]

oh damn, wonder if the model will be shrunk to fit that weight, either way I am interested to see how that goes down

[obtuse ocean]

They already have crap dmg, i mean. If carno gonna work in the open, it needs to kill fast. No clue how it will work if i need to waste half my stam on 1 small tier. And it has a good chance of running into the jungle.

And they normally dont come as 1, you also need to eat what u kill

[dusky surge]

it will

[dusky surge]

it will hardly waste half its stam to get a kill with its new charge

[jovial vessel]

ohyeah? in fairness, I havent played in a while (and when I have I never see other players haha) so maybe carno is better now than what I remember??? id be so happy

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, really hope so

[dusky surge]

also carno has anything but crap damage. its charge still hits WAAAY too hard imho

[obtuse ocean]

If you charge a omni and bite it, is it dead?

[dusky surge]

yes

in fact if you charge an omni and hit the head, the bite is unneeded

[jovial vessel]

charge does way too much damage, always has, its bad

[obtuse ocean]

To much dmg ? how

it should defintly kill a omni in one go, if it manage to charge it and bite

[dusky surge]

350 damage raw. It's nuts

[jovial vessel]

considering how quick it can get a charge off as well, unless thats changed too

[dusky surge]

it should absolutely be a knockdown/stun tool first, damage tool last

otherwise we end back on chargeno with bites being useless

[obtuse ocean]

I mean depedns on ability, but carno needs fast kill to be effecitve. If not il just take the hit and run into dense area.

[dusky surge]

does it? the knockdown allows it to follow up, so it doesn't need 350 damage burst

it also now has stamina, so even if the prey does get back up, it can restart its pursuit

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but omnis are not solo normally. And at 1,3 not sure how much fiighting you can do. And the fact you need to eat what you killed.

Im talking in open areas now, if carno goes into the jungle it can be the hunted one

[dusky surge]

carno can now play as a "many cuts" style animal

run in, get a hit in, run off, come back in

because its stamina is no longer a colossal sacrifice on a charge

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, not sure how it will work. If i can do what i can now, with just outturning it with ease

And thats in a 1v1, 2v1 its just pure fun to see when the carno gives up lol

[leaden remnant]

they nerfed ram a bit so it doesn't 1 tap raptors anymore

it puts you to 32.5 bite force tho

[dusky surge]

that means nothing to me lol

[keen plover]

Why’s that

[dusky surge]

"puts you at X biteforce" is a whatever statement, I have no idea what metric that entails

I assume that's by bodyshot, which means it probably still does 350

[leaden remnant]

a fg raptor has 65 bite force, 32.5 means 5% hp or less

so a ram to the face no longer 1 taps you

[dusky surge]

now here's my question of the day

actually, nevermind, i'll answer it myself

LMAO got my answer

It does still one-shot you. You were using a specific mutation though

[leaden remnant]

no it doesnt

[dusky surge]

Math lines up perfectly

[keen plover]

Nah it doesn’t with a tap ram

[leaden remnant]

i know, but it literally doesnt 1 tap you

[keen plover]

A ram that deals knockdown one shots rn

On the head

[dusky surge]

last i checked, damage seemed unaffected by charge time

only knockdowns

[leaden remnant]

nope

[dusky surge]

he's QA. I believe him.

The only reason it wouldn't one-shot is a very special mutation

[keen plover]

Vs raptor? It 100% does. Been like that since December. Can’t specify numbers though.

[dusky surge]

that would leave you on an itty bitty amount of health

[leaden remnant]

i literally have a clip

[dusky surge]

ya. its still 350 though

[leaden remnant]

that proves it doesnt one shot with knockdown

[keen plover]

Go test it

[dusky surge]

so it'd still one-shot

[leaden remnant]

im just searchin for it

[golden coral]

I think I've also heard that yes, if you get the knockdown, it does more damage, which is weird

[keen plover]

Is this a live game or testing btw

[golden coral]

But yeah, just go test, I don't think it's charge time per say, just knockdown or no knockdown

[dusky surge]

mate. you're arguing with hard statistics with a circumstantial clip

350 x 1.5 > 450

that math

hoping that carno's rework will go easier on the hard damage numbers and start encouraging carnos to use bite more than chargespam

i'd like for a strong bite paired with a less powerful (but easier to use) charge

[leaden remnant]

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/iugnVsjmHAmAWcdVj/d1337ueXNjMJ?invite=cr-MSxJb1QsMjUxOTE1ODY2LA

this is a pretty damn old clip

adn today ive rammed so many raptors in the face as a carno that i can say with 100% confidence that it doesn't 1 tap

[keen plover]

Not sure why the first one didn’t kill the raptor. But then again it’s possible it missed the head.

Second one is a tap ram?

[leaden remnant]

yus

[golden wasp]

@unreal crystal So... when a dibble rots, it is S diet. Intended or not tho, I am not sure

[unreal crystal]

Thanks for feedback, I didn't know this

@golden wasp I was also wondering since I'm not 100% sure, is it true that after the new update if you want to deal full damage with Cera charged bite you now have to click LMB at the end of the charge? So far I have just released RMB and it feels like that's working but I see alot of people saying you have to click LMB so kinda confused

[golden wasp]

This is first I am hearing about it, but I don't really watch updates. I just play what's out at the time ;;
Wish I could help with more info

[unreal crystal]

No worries, thank you anyways

[cosmic pelican]

You need to release with LMB to deal the full damage, if you release with RMB it will only do 150.

But even if you release with RMB, it will still do 3x the bile.

[unreal crystal]

Thanks mate! So basically they both work ,right?

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah they do, but if you want to actually deal damage release with LMB.

[unreal crystal]

Awesome ,thanks!

[hasty coyote]

From what I understand it’s intended since it happens with all things rotten. Those who can eat rotten corpses get the standard diet of that meat when they rot. So deino can get dots from rotten schooling fish and cera can get lines from a rotten Gali. Same with all the organs, they all give the diet of the body when they rot.

[leaden remnant]

@north summit take fish outside, let them rot and eat them

they'll give you about 25%-30% 3 dot

they despawn very quickly tho so watch out

and other people will eat them to avoid letting you get 3 dot

[golden wasp]

I have learned somethign today. I didn't realize rotten galli is lines for cera. Thank you

[vale brook]

rotten food is whatever diet it normally is for cera

same with deino, but idk if its intentional for deino

[golden wasp]

I'll have to check but fresh dibble in not on cera diet but becomes s when rotten though

[vale brook]

yeah

dibble is S when its on a diet, so when its rotten, its S for cerato/deino

[golden wasp]

oooh ok, I think you are both saying same thing in different ways. I got confused for a sec lol

[shadow vortex]

I remember that all the rotten food gave a dots diet no matter what dino it was However, ig it’s Spiro thing. I even like that now Cerato can get every nutrient from its second main meal, but I think that there should be a visual cue of the given nutrient while sniffing. Either 1. all rotten units smell like their related diets for Cerato, or 2. all rotten units on the compass, along with having a current special icon, in the center of that icon have a related nutrient.

I don’t really know if there’s a difference in nutrient %-replenishment for Cerato, but if there is (like rotten bodies give less nutrients), I think that having an ability to discern rotten from fresh while also knowing the nutrient is a must-have.

[mint star]

@spare turret specifically stated by dondi, "if you kill the snake, the venom isnt just going to magically go away"

[hasty coyote]

dilos also deal no fracture damage so that wasnt the hallucination that fractured you (or its some rare obscure bug no one has seen before)

[spare turret]

that does make all the sense lmao

[spare turret]

oh the hallucination was the herbivore with the headbutt thats why i got fractured, it charged me a couple times during the fight with the dilo and after i killed the dilo and started eating i got ran over by the ghost herbivore charge and then it went away like "my job here is done whoosh" haha

[stark knoll]

Venom only spawns dilos

That was a real pachy

[hasty coyote]

that wasnt a hallucination... that was just a regular pachy

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[spare turret]

ok guys so I AM THE ONE HALLUCINATING xD

[dusky surge]

MAN GOT BLINDSIDED BY A REAL-ASS PACHY WHILE TRIPPING

[spare turret]

HAHAHA

[hasty coyote]

hallucinations are very obvious, they are dilos, 3 call on spawn, hit once, then disintegrate like end game.

[spare turret]

im dead rn

[hasty coyote]

thats actually so funny though

[spare turret]

omg tysm now im just dead thinking about that random pachy just murdering me while i was on dino drugs

iw as like oh thats fine DOINK dead

🤣 💋

[winged plinth]

can I know why dilphosaurus is 700 kg while accurate dilophosaurus is only 400 kg????

[shadow vortex]

Because the game isn’t paleontologically accurate and never was.

[winged plinth]

sometimes it makes the game accurate like the weight of ceratosaurus?

[stark knoll]

Carno's weight is planned to get reduced

Diablo is also 3x the size it was irl

And last I heard dilo irl was around 700kg

[shadow vortex]

Everything in the game depends on the devs’ vision. If they want the thing to be like something, they do.

[winged plinth]

It says in google that it was only 400 kg

[dusky surge]

the cerato's weight is also oversized. in reality, it was closer to 900-1000kg

[dusky surge]

google is a poor source for these things

[winged plinth]

some other studies says it was also 1000-1500

[winged plinth]

not google but the websites and the sources that the websites uses depends on other studies

also I want to know why the dilo's footsteps are louder and sounds heavier than cerato

[hasty coyote]

Balance overrules accuracy. Since weight=hp in 95% of dinos it’s very important. Plus if it was 400kg, Omni would just pin and 1-shot it.

[winged plinth]

They can remake the stats to make the game more accurate

Because I think the dilos are too op

[hasty coyote]

Except if they make all the dinos accurate, half of them would go extinct and the other half lose their unique niche.

Like Herrera irl never climbed. Dilo irl didn’t have venom. Troodon and Omni didn’t exist. Etc.

[hasty coyote]

Also how? Their venom is bugged so you can just sit by water or on a rock and not deal with it.

[winged plinth]

Yeah I say they make them accurate only for weight but wait trodoons really existed before wdym?

[winged plinth]

I'm talking about health "weight" also not every single inch in the map have water, rocks or cliffes

[hasty coyote]

It’s a now defunct species name. Troodon was based on a single tooth and nothing else. Relatives exist tho.

However, changing weight affects a LOT. From deino lunge to Omni pin to pachy knockdown thresholds.

[hasty coyote]

They also get stuck on simply trees.

But honestly what’s the issue with dilo? Because its string suit is having the hallucinations to deal damage, but they only deal damage equal to a bite (85) and to get those hallucinations it has to bite you multiple times. Since it doesn’t have agility and doesn’t have a “you can’t hit me” mechanic like pounce. So it has to tank a hit most of the time if it hits you.

So reducing its weight just makes it die to a single pin by Omni and if you decrease its hp with it, dilo is just unable to tank the hits it needs to envenomate.

[winged plinth]

the problem isn't in the hallucinations I loved this special tactic the problem is I see that dilos have a lot of health

[winged plinth]

dilos should be in groups tho

most of the times you will face a group of dilos not a single dino also it doesn't need to tank all the hits dilos don't die from 1 shot usually unless if it was a stego I guess

[winged plinth]

I did a simple research about trodoons they exist just write trodoon fossil

I didn't ask to change the weight of every dino I asked only for dilos because I see that they are overrated

[leaden remnant]

@sullen swift as a deino, get a fish, put it out in the open, leave it for about 10 mins ,eat it, and you'll get 3 dot from it

[hasty coyote]

Imo, we should not balance things to always be in groups. Should they require groups to fight larger things like cera and teno? Yeah, and they do, since teno can nearly 1-shot them with a combo and make them bleed heavily, and cera can almost 2-shot them with charged bite (def 2-shot if it gets a headshot)

Anything else dilo can fight solo has ways of escaping it or killing it. Pachy can just beat dilos to death, especially with a leg fracture, or just break and run. Omni can nearly 1-shot a dilo with a pounce and has the agility to juke it out.

[winged plinth]

Not my problem if the dilo is a weak dinosaur we shouldn't balance everything because dilos are weak because they now fights dinosaurs that are biggers than them and they have a special ability and it is hallucinations and hallucinations are too op if they were in groups so what is the best solution for dilos? Stay in groups like omniraptors it's so easy also even after nerfing them they still strong
Omnis can't one shot a dilo even if a dilo get nerfed what are you lost or something? Lmao
2 dilos now can literally kill a carno or a cera while they are much bigger but the reason is that they are fast and agile anf they have their hallucinations

Not all the time the game should be 1v1
If that's so then why don't you guys buff omniraptors so they can keep up with other dinosaurs but no they are strong in groups the game shouldn't be a 1v1 game at all for the moment

[golden coral]

Wait what? Yes, dilos can punch up, that's not a problem though? Also hallucinations are strong when they work, but otherwise, well they don't work. And balancing for groups to be a viable critter is bad, dilo or any other.

Also there's a difference between balancing for fighting larger things in a group, and balancing to be viable 1v1

[winged plinth]

that's what I mean
2 dilos (if they are skilled players) can easily take down a cera or a carno and this is unaccurate

what I'm talking about is their massive health with nothing

and our guys @hasty coyote says nerfed dilos get one shots by a single omni this is crazy

[hasty coyote]

You want to know what happens to dinos that are balanced around only being in groups? Look at pachy, nobody plays it. Because if a Dino needs others to survive, it means you can’t play the dino without having a premade group. So it becomes less popular, so the few people who would try it solo end up finding no one because less people play it. From there it death spirals into no one playing it.

Omni isn’t balanced around only being in groups, they can literally pin and 1-shot anything smaller than themselves as well as being very strong for their size. But they need more to take out larger dinosaurs. Which is exactly how dilo is balanced atm.

[hasty coyote]

400kg dilo gets pinned, and then Omni has enough stamina to kill it through damage, even if you don’t decrease it’s hp.

[golden coral]

What do you mean inaccurate? It's a game, accuracy only goes so far.

[winged plinth]

Pachy isn't a dinosaur that usually lives in huge groups like dilos and raptors

[winged plinth]

what I'm talking about isn't just nerfing the dilos you can nerf another thing that may make the game unbalanced to the nerfed dinosaur

[hasty coyote]

1: pachy’s max group is 8, dilos is 4
2: there’s a difference between being common in groups and balanced around being in groups.

[golden coral]

But why nerf it? And why nerf the size?

[winged plinth]

isn't evrima an accurate game? or it should be at least because of the details

[golden coral]

Uh... no, not in the slightest

[winged plinth]

I don't get what you say

[golden coral]

We have omnis, by definition there goes accuracy if you're looking for accurate dinosaurs, since it's literally a made up critter (JP raptor)

[hasty coyote]

Have you not looked at beipi and hypsi? Those are not accurate in the slightest.

[winged plinth]

because they have a massive health, like 700 kg for a dinosaur like a dilo? why?

[winged plinth]

I don't say the game is accurate in dinosaurs I say it's accurate in details

why don't they just make all the dinosaurs in the isle accurate like the accurate dinosaurs stats?

[winged plinth]

also to solve the limited group of the dilos they can increase the limits which makes the dilos stronger than 4 only like they can make them 6 at max

[hasty coyote]

Pachy is more of a group animal than dilo in game. Dilo is intended to be more solitary/small groups. Hence why pachy is able to form large herds in a group unlike dilo.

You are balancing dilo to only be in groups by lowering its hp so that it’s fair when there are multiple. Since this does not take into account the fact that dilo needs that hp while alone and group play is always strong.

[golden coral]

Cause they are that big?

[golden coral]

Cause then we'd have really terrible balance

[winged plinth]

they are that small for their weight also their health is massive even I play as a dilo I'm a little op

[golden coral]

I mean, real life dilos are quite large I believe, larger than you might think

[winged plinth]

yeah they are large but their weight is only 400 kg in real life

[hasty coyote]

So what’s the issue with dilo being big? Other than the fact it’s good in groups? Because if you think dilo is good in groups, you have never seen Omni. 2 omnis can both pounce on a cera at once and pin it, this then allows them to kill the cera through damage with basically 0 counterplay. Compare that to dilos who have to nick the cera and hope not to take too much in the process, then whittle it down with venom.

[golden coral]

Fair enough, but maybe they need dilo in game to be larger for other reasons

Same reason multiple other critters are different, like dibble, or stego, and so on

Or how we're getting a 1.3T carno even if real life carno was larger, last I heard at least

[winged plinth]

2 omnis aren't enough for a cera most of the time

also you can counter the omniraptor pounce by alt attack

[winged plinth]

wait how heavy is the full adult carno?

in evrima

[golden coral]

You can grapple it, it's how it works

[golden coral]

Currently, 1.8T, will be 1.3T

[hasty coyote]

Im literally explaining a mechanic. 2 omnis pouncing a cera at once causes pounce to pin to trigger, so cera gets pinned. The 2 omnis then only have to burn 70% stam to kill it while it’s pinned. This is something I have tested multiple times on admin servers.

[winged plinth]

why? irl carnos are 2 tons

why is that whole nerf they are not OP

[golden coral]

Because they want it to be that in game

That's the answer, dibble is 3T

Despite not being near that irl to my knowledge

[hasty coyote]

To better fit its intended niche in the game.

[winged plinth]

yeah but by that nerf they will be an easily prey for other dinos

like already ceras sometimes can get a carno but with that huge nerf ceras will be the winner of the fight 90%

[shadow vortex]

They won’t (if we don’t take current Omni’s grapple into account, this thing should be adjusted asap), because:

1. Speed
2. New agility
3. Ram now costs less if any

[golden coral]

That may be intended

[shadow vortex]

And you can just outspeed a Cera, it’s not your meal.

[hasty coyote]

It’s not the only change, it’s also getting severely reduced stam cost on charge and potentially more agility and less damage.

Essentially, it’s going to be much better at mauling small dinos like Omni, but worse at dealing with larger ones like cera

[golden coral]

Cerato is kind of meant to be a "do not mess with"

[winged plinth]

yes but still a massive health reduction don't you think that?

[hasty coyote]

It is, but if its idea is to punch down and it is reasonably compensated to be able to do that, it ain’t bad tbh.

Only issue is the funny Omni pin like with cera, but that’s an Omni issue.

[winged plinth]

I agree, but the carno will be unplayable cuz of health and damage reduction

[golden coral]

No it won't, they'll adjust other things

[winged plinth]

already carnos have bad time against tenos imagine with that reduction on their health and damage tenos will mostly easily slam

[hasty coyote]

Honestly it makes carno more scary imo. Now it isn’t good only at hunting teno and cera, it’s an actual threat to anything small.

[hasty coyote]

Just don’t hunt tenos. Hunt smaller things. That’s the idea.

[golden coral]

Carno isn't neccesarily meant to hunt teno, hunt things smaller than you, not larger than you

[hasty coyote]

Like pachy and Omni are going to have a rough time dealing with carno.

[winged plinth]

well then this will be unbalanced cuz tenos supposed to be not that strong they can't be stronger than a Carno also I thought of nerfing tenos too they deal massive damage and bleeding for what? for a tail hit?

how a tail hit suppose to do all that bleed

[winged plinth]

aren't carnos larger than tenos?

[golden coral]

Currently yes, but only by 200 kg or so in game. As for with the change, then no, unless teno gets changed too

[hasty coyote]

How is it unbalanced? Teno is slower than all of its predators, so it needs to be stronger than them.

[golden coral]

Tail hit does not do bleed, that's the kick or claw swipe

[winged plinth]

slower yes but that doesn't make it that strong for it's small size

[winged plinth]

also the kick and the claws shouldn't do that bleed they deal bleed more than some other dinos

[hasty coyote]

Eh, it’s not insanely strong. Ceras can maul them, and it loses to things bigger and slower than them (like Diablo). So it’s not op imo.

[winged plinth]

Why would tenos fight dibbles tho?

[hasty coyote]

Because they are faster, so they can choose to if they want. Same reason diablos maul stegos.

[winged plinth]

Even if they are faster they don't have a chance against a dibble also herbivores shouldn't fight each other unless if itbwas for food or something like that

[hasty coyote]

Shouldn’t doesn’t mean can’t. Big difference. It’s why I believe Diablo is op, because it can 1v1 a stego with the stuns. Which is also why I think teno is fine, they don’t stand a chance against Diablo.

[winged plinth]

They can but they shouldn't because they don't eat each others + one dibble doesn't stand a chance against a stego but if theybwere 2 maybe they could

[mystic eagle]

#balance-feedback message

https://tenor.com/view/johnny-depp-maddening-angry-upsetting-unhelpful-gif-5212451

Why is the hitbox bad?

[hasty coyote]

I have soloed many stegos. The damage reduction to the head is insane atm. 1/4th dmg normally and 1/8th while blocking. So it can take up to 12 power swings to kill a Diablo. Meanwhile that Diablo can stun the stego if it doesn’t perfectly time its attack and with the stun attack + base attack and kill it with as low as 7 combos (assuming stun and reg attack both hitting head). The fact that a good Diablo can 1v1 an average stego is a bit insane imo.

However once again, just because they shouldn’t doesn’t mean they can’t. People do what people can do. Though food completion between stego and Diablo is a thing.

[winged plinth]

Idk, carnos been hitting me as a dilo today from like 4 meters distance

[leaden remnant]

bite hitbox is beyond broken rn

you dont hit things below you

you only hit things that are clearly too far away for you to be able to hit

[winged plinth]

I didn't say they can't tho, but why do they need to fight each others even in ruled servers you can't kill a herbivore if youbwere a herbivore without a reason

[winged plinth]

Does this happens to you either? They hit you from a far distance

I think it's a ping issue or something

[hasty coyote]

Because if we don’t balance them to be able to handle each other appropriately, the trolls will just exploit it.

For sake of example, Diablo gets a speed boost and is now faster than teno. Now toxic diablos can just run down teno’s and maul them on sight with practically 0 counterplay.

[winged plinth]

I don't mean nerf tenos speed I mean nerf tenos damage and bleeding

[hasty coyote]

It was an example of what happens when they are not balanced appropriately. I think teno is fine as is because it does not have any matchups that it is both faster and stronger than.

[leaden remnant]

it is a hitbox issue

[leaden remnant]

teno vs cera is a 50/50, kinda more sided towards teno

[mystic eagle]

“Today” doesn’t really help anyone, it might be a ping or server issue, might be a hitbox issue, could be a different issue entirely.
I noticed server issues when playing as a lot of different creatures where they’d hit where I was before and still deal damage, in which case I don’t know if the devs are able to fix that or if they’re already trying to fix that.
Not to say you’re complaint is wrong, just saying it’s meh.

[hasty coyote]

It’s a very fair matchup imo. Even then, if the teno chases the cera, the cera can turn around and hit the head. Teno is honestly just kinda bad at chasing things down since. It has most its power in rear facing attacks.

[leaden remnant]

honestly, if you turn around as a cera, you're dead

it takes nothing to do a 180 and kick his face

[keen plover]

Depends on latency. If they both have low ping, the cera wins most of the time

[hasty coyote]

Feign turns, don’t make yourself telegraphed.

[leaden remnant]

eh

[hasty coyote]

Run through bushes so they lose king of sight

[leaden remnant]

teno wins

[leaden remnant]

i know, i merely said that if the cera turns around as you suggested, he's getting kicked in the face

[keen plover]

I disagree but not like I can prove it.

[leaden remnant]

one could argue experience, but, in teh end, you aint wrong

[keen plover]

Yeah

[hasty coyote]

Also depends on if the teno is good enough to turn with the accuracy it needs. Most tenos don’t have that skill to be fair. So if we are going with best of the best vs best of the best, then both have many options on how to approach that fight.

[leaden remnant]

best cera vs best teno would be uhhhhhh

[keen plover]

I’ll just say it’s even

[leaden remnant]

well tbf i'd say the best teno wins

[hasty coyote]

Hence why I like it, it’s a skill based matchup between 2 defensive brawlers.

[leaden remnant]

yes

[keen plover]

Depends on location btw. How the fight happens. Hunger.

[leaden remnant]

aaaaaand bile

[keen plover]

Like cera has the ability to puke you and wait you out

[hasty coyote]

Lots of variables to take into account.

[keen plover]

Yeah

[hasty coyote]

Again, the fact we need to say all of these variables proves it’s a pretty fair fight

[keen plover]

True.

[leaden remnant]

yus

it's actually somewhat scary for both sides, you know that if you frick it up you're gone

if im playing teno and i see a cera, im confident that ill win the fight without a single issue, but if he turns out to be great at fighting, i think "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

[hasty coyote]

Basically same thought process seeing a teno as a cera lol

[winged plinth]

Bro what did I say? I'm telling you what happened to me what's your problem bruh

[winged plinth]

Think about tenos are agiles you can't hit their head most of the times and their kick hits are fast and recover quickly that what makes tenos OP

[mystic eagle]

My problem is I think the issue is more likely that the servers lag behind a bit.

[slim dragon]

#balance-feedback message
This would effectively make ptera the strongest hunter in the game

100 biteforce for such a small animal is crazy

[golden elk]

why is that? crocs having the same. maybe, 80 or at least 65 would be ok too. in addition, they could reduce the hitbox though its already not easy to hit. then think abou tthe stam cost, most pteras run out before they could kill you.
why should a omni pack be able to kill everything, 2 ceras or carnos too or one croc, why even 4 troodons can kill a stego with enough skill, but a ptera cant even kill a goat while flyfighting?
all a ptera can easily fight against is an other ptera.
and take it from a logical point. when i slap you in the face, it hurts, but doesnt harm you. when i pass you on a motorbike, hold my hand out and hit you same way, it harms. that should be the same way when i fly as ptera passing and picking at you, since in reality, i would leave a 20cm deep jole in you.

[dusky surge]

because all of those animals are designed to fight more than the fisher scavenger flyer

[golden elk]

still i have that weapon that is 30% of my body. and scavanger? what i can scavange that gives me nutrions? nothing.

[slim dragon]

You underestimate how much 100 biteforce is
First, that is more than twice ptera's max health
For a basic attack
So not only pteras could oneshot each other all the time, but a juvenile could probably oneshot an adult with those stats

[keen plover]

A ptera bite force buff wouldn't work. You'd just see swarms of them killing things that have no way of fighting back

Even if they could attack upwards though, ptera doesn't need it

[slim dragon]

Then, it's 5 hits to kill an omni
On body hits

And the playable we're talking about can fly faster than anything in the game can run, AND is completely untoucjable unless it messes up

Not content of giving it a crazy biteforce to weight ratio, you also give it the shortest stamina regen time of any dino ?
That's what I call OP

Back when ptera had 50 biteforce it was crazy oppressive to everything, and could even kill stegs

[golden elk]

yes. but you still dont take in, i first have to hit youb 5 times, which cost me a quter stam and you catching me out of air and i lost is a way bigger risk than any ground enemy has against you. who is not able to fight back a ptera have a skill issue for sure.
maybe i underestimate the force, yes. maybe a other solution would be to higher the pure bleeding damage.
but guys, anything should be done with the bird, because, its nothiong more than chatting if you find other birds, flying, and once you figured out where you can save land, once you can drink saltwater, you will never die if you dont suicide

[slim dragon]

Biting doesn't cost stam
And flying barely does unless you move like Mario in mario 64

Ptera is not designed as a hunter, and that is a good thing because if it was, it would be completely busted
What it lacks is other things to do than killing, but every animal does currently

[golden elk]

we dont even bite. we make holes in you that going deeper than any cera teeth. if you dont want to loose health for that, you should at least bleed, and i dont mean bleed a little bit, i mean, i hit you 4 times and if you dont stop moving fast, you should bleed out. thats the only other fair solution that comes to my mind.
i dont get why you have no problems with an infinty omni pack but beeing scared of having to watch the sky for a little bit. we birds are still 1 hit death, let us play a bit with you, not just yelling mother jokes that you cant understand 😉

[slim dragon]

I have a problem with having to deal with a bunch of immortal, inescapable predators that I can't fight back against and that can kill me in 4 hits

[golden elk]

then again, why its ok with raptors, but why a bird cant litteraly harm NOTHING

[slim dragon]

Because raptors aren't immortal nor impossible to escape

[golden elk]

so arent birds. a raptor can take a beating back, a biord cant not

[slim dragon]

The only way you can die as a ptera is if you mess up real bad, or if you really want to

[dusky surge]

being a bird has the power of having a type of mobility that 95% of the roster literally cannot interact with

the moment you're anywhere above the walkable space, you have now accessed immortality

[slim dragon]

How do you give a beating to a flying ptera ?
Trust me, I've been a ptera main for a long time after its release
I've never been scared of getting into a fight against a deino or 20 raptors

[golden elk]

yes, that is partly my point. you should be able to kill birds not only when they take a not so smart spot to rest or drink, you should kill us in a fight, one in that the bird can take a chance against you

[slim dragon]

In fact, during its first release, back when its biteforce was crazy high, I fought a deino, and the only reason they survived was because they could hide underwater
And ever since I've spent all my time bullying deinos who dared to surface

[dusky surge]

i can do that now, if the bird wants to fight me

you're not making it more likely to kill birds, you're making it more likely for birds to kill you

[golden elk]

i dont say overdo it. and i dont say, a single bird should have an easy time to go and kill a way way bigger enemy. i say, a bird should be able to kill in a fight, several hits at least anything. lets say, a single bird vs a singe raptor, make that fair. 2 or 3 against a cera. 5 or 6 against a croc on land, assuming no bird dies in one of those fights, and we know, they would die

[slim dragon]

why should a single ptera have a fair combat against a single raptor ?
Omni is goddamn 10x the size of ptera

That's like asking carno to be able to fight 3 stegos at once and win

[golden elk]

because i still pass you as raptor with 60km and pick a 40cm sharp pointed spear in you. at present what doies it to you? you squeeq, think im an asshole, move on and have forgotten me 5 min later. thats not how a bird make fun to play

[vale brook]

you want the 35kg animal to have a fair fight against a 450kg animal

[slim dragon]

It's what I said
Ptera lacks other things to do than fight, like everything else
Because if it was designed for fighting it would be crazy OP

You want to make it stronger than it was at release, back when it was an absolute menace to everything that couldn't hide underwater

[golden elk]

35kg, multiplicated with a impact force of 60km, should make a difference, yes, that is my opinion.

and a sparp pointed end not to forget

[vale brook]

if ptera were to impact omni at 60km it would crumble

[slim dragon]

You wanna argue realism ?
Well I'll have you know realistically if ptera did that it would break its neck and flatten itself against its oipponent

Also if you look at the animation ptera isn't using its speed to skewer through its opponents like it's a goddamn spear
It just pecks them
Like any bird would do
Because real birds aren't stupid enough to use themselves as disposable projectiles either

[golden elk]

right !!! and i don t even say make it crumble. but i say, make it bleed out after 5 hits or die after 2 or 3 more. i dont think that this is un reasonable. in counter, you can catch me with one hit out of the air and im death. still not fair?

[mint star]

dont give bees of bemuddle any ideas

[slim dragon]

I'm a dev for BoB (Beetles of Belarus)

[slim dragon]

(they were trying to say ptera would crumble)

[golden elk]

it doesnt just peck. it leaves a 5cm bright, 20cm deep hole in you which at present dont get taken into concideration at all. i see you guys are terryfied of becoming a adintional enemy, same time looking forward to allo and trex. makes no sence to me.
and if pteras are not supposed to fight at all, then to the other part, why i cant eat you when someone else killed you.
at present pteras are just a kind of makeing the game beauty when others see us fly but for the bird, it makes very less sence to show any interest in the game other than to other birds

[vale brook]

i was saying ptera would crumble, because it has incredibly fragile bones

[golden elk]

missreaded that, my fault. in a direct collision yes, but i just pass by pecking, thats a question of muscles, not bones

[slim dragon]

You don't know me, don't assume what I'm afraid of and what Inm looking forward to
As I told you, ptera is currently my most played animal
What I'm afraid of is people like you turning this game into an unbalanced mess because they don't want to look at the game as an environment with multiple players, and only care about their favorite animal

Ptera is being reworked to fit better into the roster
But not in the way you think

[golden elk]

so its ok for you that players like me starting to play evil birds hunting you out of the air because thats all pvp i casn get? i already started this kind of shitshow on a rp server where its legit, but anywhen this will become a thing everywhere. i would miss the times where i can trust our friendly bird comunity

[golden elk]

make up a better solution?

[slim dragon]

No
If you want pvp just pick a hunter
You wouldn't pick a dryo to hunt other dinos, right ?
Then just don't pick ptera if what you want is killing raptors and other large dinos

[slim dragon]

From what we know, ptera is "being turned into a more terrestrial animal" and we've seen some new animations for it

[golden elk]

i would pick a quetza as main. i literaly came to the game because it has a bird. i main ptera, and i wish i could interfer in what happening other than just trolling.

[slim dragon]

It's probably gonna get a kit rework that allows it more survivability on land and turns flying more into a "escape any situation" card rather than "stay in the air all the time otherwise I die"

[slim dragon]

Now quetz would be a good choice for killing thing
But turning ptera into quetz while waiting for it to release isn't a good solution

[golden elk]

again, i dont think a ptera should become a real killer and i dont think 4 pteras (you never find more than 4 good pilots same time) should be as mighty as a pack of omnis. but we should be more than the not ai version of those scavanger birdys and then not even able to scavange.

bad joke to me

[shadow vortex]

I wish that ptera could steal small iuvie bodies from others with its feet lol. Dunno if it’s any logical though, can’t really imagine the animation.

[dusky surge]

literally can't lmao

ptera's feet are absolutely useless for grabbing

they're closer to human feet than hawk feet

[shadow vortex]

Ehh, will any other flyer’s feet be able to?

I don’t remember what else is on the roster xd

[dusky surge]

nope

[bright oasis]

The only other planned flyer is quetz, who scoops up players with its large beak.

[shadow vortex]

Tasty!

[eternal oak]

@restive token i think the hitbox thing might be your 100 ping... tends to do silly stuff like that...

[tight cove]

I legit remember the days when a ptera was a serious threat to anything that couldn’t jump and I’ve heard stories of them killing carnos and stegos and even Deinos, the only way you could escape one was by using trees and praying they either crashed or ran out of stam so you could escape and I personally remember taking heavy damage from them during multiple occasions, and that was when the max damage was 50 so I can’t imagine giving them 100 dmg, they would just go around killing everything while being untouchable, that’s literally insanity smh.

[mint star]

its true, i was one of those pteranodons

i used to hunt juvenile deinos at gator pond in update 3

they couldnt escape even in the trees cos ptera could rapidly turn

[hasty coyote]

This is pretty much the exact reason I’m glad they are making ptera more terrestrial. Because now it can actually be strong while having counterplay.

@uncut trellis while the stuns are a big issue with the Diablo v stego 1v1, it’s not the only reason it can. Diablo’s insane damage resist to the head allows it to tank WAY more than it should imo. 1/4th damage normally, and 1/8th when blocking, this means Diablo can tank 6-12 power swings to the head without dying. The both of these combined allow diablos to maul a stego that ain’t good.

[uncut trellis]

Yea I should have mentioned that cause I’ve tried it, a blocking dibble can not only take a power swing easy, but it also won’t get knocked down

[dusky surge]

well, this honestly wouldn't even be an issue if not for one final thing

stego sucks at fighting anything which can actually take a hit

early HT powerswing stego could easily take on diablo. Yes, part of that would evidently be due to the lower weight, but most of it is the ability to actually do the required DPS to dispatch of the animal, and the lack of consistent stuns

diablo's buff train vs stego's nerf train managed to collide head to head in a horrible bloody mess. Almost like overnerfing an animal because of another animal that you also buff at the same time is not a great plan

[hasty coyote]

yeah tbh this whole situation is a massive garbage fire caused by too many unnecessary buffs and nerfs.

[dusky surge]

i mean

they at least said there was a REASON for diablo's buffs

stego got no such luxury of reasoning

it just got piledriven

[hasty coyote]

Still think that is one of the most wild reasons to buff something if it was *just * the model size.
At least diablos don't knock down stegos like the used to

[dusky surge]

not just the model size

there's some underlying reason that makes Dondi deadset on the weight. Probably allosaurus tbh

[hasty coyote]

probably

[dusky surge]

again, the issue is more diablo's stun and stego's general level of pitiful nature

[hasty coyote]

I still think the resists are insane, the fact that a diablo can almost survive 24000 damage from a single attack is a bit overkill. They should put a cap on the amount of damage it can mitigate.

[stark knoll]

I miss 1.5T diablo :(

[weary dust]

Still think grapple shouldve went to, spino, sucho, and bary

[dusky surge]

feels like an odd choice

[weary dust]

Makes more sense than allo which uses high bleed , ambush, and can have alot of pack mates, as we have seen with omni while one person grapples the other bites the head, a mechanic like this on allo will lead to instead win cons, this is less likely for sucho because they are slower and have less players in group and also do do as much bleed on top of out damaging their kills, same for spino, and bary is cera sized making it less devastating

Also these guys are semi aquatic and fish eaters, making them less likely to abuse this mechanic like allo definitely would, allo is gonna be more hungry objectively

[dusky surge]

those two are generally more brawler-centric, not "grab and kill"

[slim dragon]

So your reasoning is that grapple should be given to animals that cannot make good use of it ?

It seems nonsensical to give a creature abilities that aren't useful for its niche

[dusky surge]

Also, justifying it by the fact they have big ams doesn't work either

Allo has big arms so it can grab things that might try to get away and make sure they can't

Bary, sucho and spino have big arms to slap things that might try to get too close and make sure they leave or die

[shadow vortex]

It can survive only 14999 to the head, no? 15000 / 100 * 20 = 3000. Still much, but not 24000.

[slim dragon]

What's that calculation

[shadow vortex]

80% of 15000 are in the RMB reduction range, other 20% = 3000, which is Diablos’ HP.

[hasty coyote]

I got no clue what numbers you are using, but heres my math:
Diablo takes 1/4th damages to the head, up to 1/8th while blocking. This means diablo has 8x effective hp while blocking (assuming all headshots). With 3k hp, this means the equation is 8x3000 which equals 24000

[slim dragon]

I still don't understand what you mean
But I don't think that's how damage calculations work in this game

[shadow vortex]

Diablo blocks up to 80% damage to its head in defensive stance, that’s what I know and that’s what from I get my numbers.

[hasty coyote]

yeah I still don't understand where you are getting those numbers from either

[slim dragon]

But your calculations are wrong
Blocking 80% of damage (if it was the case, because apparently it isn't) means you have 5x as much effective health

[shadow vortex]

20% that Diablo takes is 3000 at max, right?

[shadow vortex]

If it means death.

[slim dragon]

If dibble takes 1/8th of damage to the head while blocking, that's a 87.5% damage reduction

[shadow vortex]

It’s still not 24000 and not based on my calculations either.

[hasty coyote]

ok I see now, you are just calculating the damage resist in the opposite way (which is a bit more complicated imo).
However, from my testing it takes 1/8th while blocking, not 1/5th

[slim dragon]

If the multiplier IS 1/8th, then it is 24 000
Or rather 23 999 is the amount of damage dibble can survive

[shadow vortex]

Hm, I’ll try to re-calculate.

[hasty coyote]

hence why I said it can almost survive a single 24000 attack.

[shadow vortex]

Yep, I see. I thought Dibble’s reduction is 80%, but if it’s 87,5% then yep, 24000 is the number. When I replied “It’s still not 24000” I calculated that in my head, didn’t know there would be such a big difference.

Thank y’all for correcting.

[hasty coyote]

np, glad we were able to clear things up 👍

[golden coral]

Unless it's one single hit, you'll survive 24000+, due to healing

[slim dragon]

And Dondi said he didn't want people to metagame numbers

[shadow vortex]

Admin tools do the trick, heh. At least we can find these exaggerated numbers while doing so.

[hasty coyote]

Metagaming is inevitable.

I will find the numbers

[weary dust]

@dusky surge grapple makes more sense for a brawler, than something that rips and tears until its done like allo

@slim dragon why wouldnt they be capable of making good use of it, the spinosaurids niche is grabbing things and keeping them from getting away, like deino, conical teeth remember, allo is a slicer it gouges and bleeds things out or rips them apart with powerful arms and jaws not keep them in place

@dusky surge this is headcannon arms are arms, they are all capable of performing the same fuctions, with them big meaty claws, my argument is more directed at skull, teeth, and body structure being the domant factor as to which deserves grapple more

[dusky surge]

its not headcanon. its the niche given to the animals themselves. i think giving unfitting moves to animals based on what they look like creates for poor game design

@hasty coyote i agree with most of your changes, but not the damage resist. i think the hard cap is clunky and unintuitive

[hasty coyote]

It def is a bit complicated, but so are a lot of things in this game. The whole idea is to keep its head good at blocking lighter attacks like cera bites and such, but not able to just tank a stego swing like its nothing.

[dusky surge]

i think it's a very hamfisted approach to the issue that overcomplicates something that should be simple, and explicitly only exists because stego sucks so bad at fighting it

i would rather address the fact that stego cannot reliably harm diablo in any way before nerfing diablo and allowing stego to continue being poor

[hasty coyote]

While stego was in mind, it was not purely stego that motivated the change, literally any apex could sit there and swing at a diablo's head and kill another apex with those attacks before they killed a diablo. Without blocking, diablo has 12k effective hp through headshots, more than pretty much any apex. Thats genuinely insane to me.

[dusky surge]

i mean... i'd imagine similar things happening with anky or whatnot

[hasty coyote]

While having the head be a no-go-zone for ceratopsians is the idea, allowing diablo to tank apexes is incredibly op to me.

The other idea I have seen floating around is to just make there be a hard cutoff on the damage mitigation, like any attack that deals over 1k damage just punctures though the resist and deals flat damage. I dislike this because an attack can literally be on the edge and deal full damage while an attack that deals slightly less deals 1/4th.

[hasty coyote]

those things are apexes though, the difference is that there is no tier above them other than sauropods, and I don't imagine sauropods having an issue. Plus if this method works out for damage resist, they can apply something similar to them. The issue I have with diablo is that its both faster than apexes and able to tank apexes. There will be roaming bands of diablos that just swarm and maul apexes if they struggle to puncture though even a single diablo.

[dusky surge]

minmi will also likely have a lot more effective health and it sure ain't an apex

[hasty coyote]

I'd like the same thing for it too if they give it insane damage resist. However, minmi also aint combat oriented so it doesnt do much harm either way tbh.

I just think diablo has the perfect combination of stats that make it a bit too good at mauling apexes, with the head resist allowing it to tank a lot more than it should. If the resistance is lowered then it wouldnt be an issue, but just flat lowering the resistance kinda feels bad imo. Its def a viable option, I just prefer the cap.

Plus one thing the devs hate is metagaming, and making the hp system complicated to calculate on the spot makes it pretty hard to metagame. So thats a side bonus I guess.

[weary dust]

@dusky surge uh ? Yes it is, you selectively focused on what you wanted both arms to do as if they both cant do exactly the same thing, when it comes down to it there isnt significant evidence suggesting allo is a grappler first, there is for the others purely based on their skulls being similar to crocodiles, other than this cherry picking about the arms you dont have any reason as to why the moves I brought up are unfitting

[dusky surge]

because they don't fit their desired niches within the game's ecosystem

all three of them have been displayed to be brawler type-animals, designed to be able to stand their ground against large foes using powerful hits using their claws. A grapple/pin is better suited for fighting solo, smaller critters, as a pin leaves you exposed to other threats as you do it

of course allosaurus would benefit more from it as an animal that can actually ambush and catch small game than sucho would, an animal built more around protecting its territory and co-existing with apex-level animals like deinocheirus

[regal tulip]

Yeah I don't agree with the sentiment that diablo needs that drift to cover it's sides. They made it turn slow on purpose outside of spar mode so carnis have a fighting chance. Dibble should be strong in groups or with it's back up to a wall, having a 180 drift available after TAPPING shift is literally what makes the dino unbalanced right now.

Make it need to run really long or hard nerf it

@hasty coyote everything else I can wholeheartedly agree with tho

[dusky surge]

i think the drift has value and should remain

necessitating groups = bad

[regal tulip]

Doesn't need a group, just has to leave the plains when being stalked or attacked

Plus alt bites exist

[dusky surge]

still think removing the drift entirely is overkill, unless it gets a significant agility buff

[regal tulip]

Just give it what carno has rn, a max 90 degree turn after reaching full acceleration

[hasty coyote]

While drifting aint it’s only option, it’s the main option it has in the open. And with most of its migrations putting it out in the open, it should be able to handle itself in the open. Your issue with it being able to tap shift and 180 is literally what I was addressing with the acceleration nerf I suggested. The whole change I was proposing would make Diablo both drift slower and have a longer gap between the drifts, giving an opening between them that predators could exploit.

If we nerf drift to the point it can’t be used effectively, then omnis will just maul a Diablo. Since they can just run circles around it until they get behind it and then get free pounces. While it needs to have openings, it also needs ways to mitigate them.

[dusky surge]

^

[cobalt dagger]

@restive token

I super agree with you about Dilo, I don't know why your suggestion has more x than check

[runic bone]

i want new dinooooooooooooooo

what wil be the next ??

will*

[cosmic pelican]

Rex, trike or maia

[runic bone]

Rex would be cool

U thought like Allo or dum

Sum*

But anyone have an idea when it could get added?

[golden coral]

@steep echo Isn't there a risk of making them throw away playables if they're both very quick to grow, and are not that difficult to get diets with? Honestly looks to me like people would just grow them, and then do whatever because it's very easy to get back to grown?

[steep echo]

Even on spiro hardly anyone would play them with the shorter grow times. Even if they did having a higher population of those dinos isnt a bad thing

The only extremes I would agree with you on though is the troodon and pteranodon. Those have basically been halved

everything else has been cut back by about 15 mins

[golden coral]

Fair. I just kind of feel like if I could grow a dryo in just about 40 min, I'm not sure I would be properly wary and skittish then. I'll just run to sanctuary, fill up, run around and be grown before I know it, back to squeaking at things and messing with them.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but shorter growth times tend to make me far more careless

[slim dragon]

@tight cove Against what is galli too strong, exactly ? Because it's stats don't seem overtuned for its size

[tight cove]

Cera,carno, and everything that weighs less than that besides teno but even a teno can struggle

Seriously man if you don’t believe me you can get some good players and test it yourself, I’m telling you they will shred your cera or carno

Ppl think galli is weak and etc but ever since that new trot buff it received it’s a menace 😂

[slim dragon]

But
Galli isn't faster than carno
And cera largely has the tools to kill them

[dusky surge]

nerfing galli is absolutely the wrong way to go

galli is not the issue

[tight cove]

Galli can also trot and tap shift every few secs and easily out run Omni too lmao

[dusky surge]

it is the fact that galli has access to mutations that allow it to get away with things it otherwise absolutely should not

[slim dragon]

As for the smaller thongs, well, I'm not sur how a galli can win against omni unless they outnumber it

[tight cove]

Test and see for yourself

[dusky surge]

take away gastronomic regen and the damage resist from larger creatures, and galli is already not half as tough

[tight cove]

Or we can test it on ttl rn I have ppl one we can test with i promise they will shred u bro 😂

@slim dragon

[tight cove]

Even with no mutations it doesn’t even matter

[dusky surge]

the mutations absolutely matter

[tight cove]

It does but even without eat to heal galli goes crazy

[slim dragon]

Sure
It's not like I'm in bed right now or have work to do as soon as I get up

[tight cove]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-gif-25269231

Ppl won’t believe me but I’m telling the truth and I’m not a trash player

[dusky surge]

i believe that galli is strong. i still believe it absolutely can be heavily attributed to mutation builds

i think nerfing galli and not the tools it uses to be so powerful solves none of the issues

i'll be more inclined to believe galli is OP when the combat mutations it uses so frequently go away, and it still remains dominant

[tight cove]

Bro you can legit test this

You can have a few gallis with no perks and you can kill stuff but it’s just gonna take you a while to heal

And honestly idk how fast galli heal it but it’s probably pretty quick ngl

I doubt galli heals slowly

[dusky surge]

galli heals really fast with gastro

so fast that it heals entirely midfight and goes right back in

[tight cove]

Nah I wasn’t talking about that I was talking about it’s regular heal rate

Ik galli heals extremely fast with that perk

Every small creature heals insanely fast with it

@dusky surge but Fr though u can test this yourself you can get a few guys that are good at this game and tell them go Galli with no perks and you go as carno or cera

3-4 gallis can cause some serious damage and that’s not even the pack limit, the pack limit is like 6 I think or maybe 8

[keen plover]

10 actually

[tight cove]

That’s crazy bro 💀💀💀💀

Yo bird you was there during testing galli is crazy 😭

[keen plover]

While I do think galli might need some "nerfs". Possibly to kick damage / bleed, I do think it would be fair to see how it plays out with the upcoming carno / cera changes. I know it was pretty strong vs teno though lol

[tight cove]

Fair

[keen plover]

Remove some strong mutations as well. While it is strong in a test scenario, on officials, you may not get the chance to constantly pick off solo players

Which is why isolated tests should only be part of the overall balance equation

[tight cove]

I agree but man if a galli group catches a solo player gg 💀

[keen plover]

At a certain point it should be the case imo. I do think that rn 2 - 3 is a bit much lol

[tight cove]

And honestly galli is so fast and has so much stam you could honestly travel around the whole map looking for solos tbh

[keen plover]

Solo creatures that are at max 3 - 4x your size

You're not going after diablos

you're not going after a stego

It's mainly carno, cera and teno

2 of them are getting gameplay changes next patch

[tight cove]

True

[opaque vine]

#balance-feedback message @tight cove I don’t think that pachys self stun should be removed. It’s supposed to be a hit and run when fighting bigger opponents. Removing the stun would make pachy ridiculously strong. Imagine crippling a cerato and then raming it without the opponent being able to dodge or catch you

[slim dragon]

How do you hit and run if you can't run after hitting

[shadow vortex]

Tbh I’d prefer 3 stun system more than this. Without the recoil Pachy may become too oppressive ig.

[dusky surge]

3 stun system?

[shadow vortex]

Where pachy stuns its victims on applying fractures.

[opaque vine]

I can run after hitting tho, well it takes 2 seconds but it makes sense

Otherwise pachys would be able to Kill u with no counter play

[slim dragon]

2 seconds during which all the time you got stunning your enemy goes to waste, and you get hit at least once
Not very efficient as a survival tactic

I know pachy was busted at release, but making it unable to move for 2 seconds after succesfully hitting a ram is kinda the worst solution to its over-poweredness

[opaque vine]

So what will be the sulution. To remove the stun entirely? That would just encourage pachys to go ham after breaking their opponents leg, atleast with the stun they risk something.

[dusky surge]

like how old omni risked actually being caught when it missed due to its recovery animation, just give pachy the same thing if it misses

[slim dragon]

The most popular suggestion currently is to only allow pachy to stun bigger animals when succesfully fracturing them, which means they can't stun a creature twice by hitting the same spot

[dusky surge]

i just think it should be universal that if you get a fracture, you take a stun

[slim dragon]

Also uh, I'm not sure in what state stun immunity currently is, but it could be tweaked to prevent perma-stunning

[opaque vine]

Not really. immobilizing your opponent is pretty powerful I mean, they can no longer alt bite so you can basically “legacy” them with the rams until they die

[dusky surge]

if i fall off a cliff and FRACTURE MY LEG, I'm gonna need a lil time to recover

[slim dragon]

OR implement "light stuns" that do not interrupt attacks or movement but prevent taking actions during their duration

[opaque vine]

Hold on a minute. What dinos do pachy struggle against?

[slim dragon]

Pachy can already do that with alt-attacks

[dusky surge]

cerato and carno mainly

[opaque vine]

It can outrun cerato and carno is a joke due to its horrible agility

[dusky surge]

"it can outrun cerato"

YOU WOULD HOPE SO, WOULDN'T YOU

[slim dragon]

Not if cerato has a speed mutation

[opaque vine]

Yup which is why speed mutations should be removed and not pachy be buffed

[tropic horizon]

It kinda struggles against omni but only in packs ofc. Which is kinda a given but also 2 raptors can kinda just turn off pachies existence with 2 pounces