balance-feedback-discussion

[keen plover]

You're left with barely any health though

[grizzled anchor]

Oh sorry so theyre down to oneshot. Still cant react to it. Still makes it overpowered

[golden coral]

Hmm. Will say, not a fan of charges in general, but I'm afraid we're stuck with them, so I'd just add one more possibly, or shorten the cooldown more, especially if the charge only lasts 3 seconds and is very limited in mobility. Thinking that you'd use multiple charges as a "catch up" method here for pursuing then. Would possibly lower damage more, since I kind of want carno to stop after it's knocked a thing down to finish it off with bites. Most of the rest looks okay, not entirely sure on how useful a "straight line" charge will be, when people learn to split into different directions, but it's worth trying out.

[shadow vortex]

Probably that’s no fine, but what also a no-fine for me is that 4 seconds raptor pounce to a 1350 kgs carno bleeds it down to half, that a raptor can tail ride a teno, that a raptor packs swarm officials (and they wouldn’t if it was a horrible dino).

[golden coral]

@grizzled anchorWouldn't it make more sense for rex to be concerned with a trike, or spino, than a dilo (that is supposedly not meant to punch up at all), or even omnis.

[grizzled anchor]

tail ride a teno? Are u in legacy or something? the teno will kick the sh*t out of a tail-riding raptor lol
Also raptors are pack hunters so seeing packs of them isnt unusual. But seeing groups of 7-9 carnos daily is very questionable in my book

[steep echo]

No, pachy runs at raptor speed from 30% growth to 70% growth

[shadow vortex]

No it won’t. How are you supposed to kick full-length of your tail, wtf?

[digital surge]

Overpacking as any Dinosaur has been a lasting issue tho. If it's mega Packs of Carno, Cera, Raptors, Dilos, Tenos anything really... Megapacks I feel like are the main issue.

[grizzled anchor]

Was just an example. Trike isnt in the game yet so I didnt want to take that comparison but we know trex is coming soon so. But yes dilo probably isnt a big threat. Raptors on the other hand are agile enough to pounce on the rex so a big raptor pack with enough patience should be a threat to a rex

[grizzled anchor]

U do know that u can hit them with your tail right? ALT+RMB

[shadow vortex]

U do know that they ignore it? Clunky attack vs 47.5 km/h speed. Also tail slamming them is the WORST option you can go.

[digital surge]

(On that note tho... why in the World is Dilo faster than Raptor?)

[shadow vortex]

Why it shouldn’t be like that with its non-agile playstyle?

[grizzled anchor]

Oh so u think letting them "tail-ride" u is the best option?! 😂 bro wth. Besides the tail attack stuns even a fully grown raptor so it is very viable. I feel like you dont have much fighting experience with and against tenos 🤔

[digital surge]

Dilo is pretty agile from my experience.

[shadow vortex]

Not as much as a raptor.

[digital surge]

A kick does as well, and it adds bleed.

[golden coral]

Cause get pinned otherwise I think

[steep echo]

Dilo is 700, raptor is 450

So no pin

[digital surge]

Balancing seems to be really difficult...

[golden coral]

Maybe, last I heard, omnis will not take down a rex easily at all. But considering how easily they take anything not using terrain, I could see rex fold to 4-5 of them in the open to be honest

[digital surge]

Pin when 2 pounce

I think

[steep echo]

Grapple is definitely a testy mechanic

[grizzled anchor]

Yeah but he says that raptor can just tail ride a teno and when I said just kick he said the kick doesnt have the full tail range so I said just hit with your tail but thats the "WORST option" so idk what he expects XD

[golden coral]

What about if two of them? And could just be pounce, wouldn't have to be pin to be fair, that was just me thinking about being taken out directly. But even being run down and pounced, might have been the reason

[keen plover]

I mean pounce is changing. Bucking also won't be as bad as rn

[junior pollen]

i mean its very easy to be basically on top of a teno thats bad and dodge everything i do it on cera all the time

[digital surge]

Well, Raptors can tail ride for sure... it takes a pretty experienced Teno to find a timing for a well aimed kick, Tail slam on the other hand leaves you open due to animation lock.

[golden coral]

Yeah, I'll wait and see on that. They said some playables might be able to fight back, I will be very disappointed if stego does not get the ability to "fight" with bucking

[grizzled anchor]

In theory they should be able to kill a rex but it would take a long time and one hit theyre dead so it shouldnt be an easy win. But Im just thinking that the current roster has no other dino that really stands a chance so agility is the way in my book 😄

[golden coral]

But considering how it's gone so far, I should probably not hope for too much

[golden coral]

They could just make it so everything can escape rex, thus, rex dies to starvation, if nothing can reliably fight it

[keen plover]

I doubt it lol. Even though stegos buck literally hits to the sides and visually sort of makes sense to hit a raptor

[digital surge]

It would cause an uproar lol

[grizzled anchor]

Ive never had this problem as teno lol. And I still think a tail slam is better than letting them tail ride u. But I also think the hitbox of the tail slam should be wide enough so it will stun tail-riders.

[digital surge]

Stegos are hated... at least by everyone I know lmao.

[golden coral]

I know, I'll have to wait for mods/server settings to get a proper stego, this I've come to terms with

[golden coral]

And to think, trike and rex will be way more powerful apparently

[digital surge]

We are in for a whacky time...

[grizzled anchor]

True but thats not much fun though 🤔 thats why I said every dino needs at least on "bad" matchup so it will still be fun. But I guess Im one of the few people who dont like being absolutely overpowered so nothing stands a chance.
But if we're honest the current roster just isnt ready for a Rex yet

[grizzled anchor]

If they release both at the same time at least they can fight each other nothing else will want to cross their path thats for sure XD

[digital surge]

Imagine Dibble stunning a Rex... oh boy

[cosmic pelican]

If vomit stays the way it is, rex will massively suffer vs cera groups, 1 vomit and its done for.

[golden coral]

Well, they're supposed to be apexes, so I guess they'd fear another apex

Speaking of, anyone know if stego still has the excessive stam cost and cooldown on the new attack? Haven't kept up with any patches for a bit

[steep echo]

I'm pretty excited for Megalania's burrow intrusion. That would be a pretty bad matchup for anything hiding underground

[grizzled anchor]

realistically I dont think that a Rex would fear a deinosuchus. As the stego shows wonderfully the croc is absolutely useless for anything over 4 tons. Sad and unrealistic but thats the reality

[cosmic pelican]

Its 10 and 15% still

[grizzled anchor]

True, didnt they add that it scales with weight tho? If not they definetly should lol. So a cera would take many bites to make a rex vomit

[cosmic pelican]

Nope it takes 3 charged bites to make anything vomit

[grizzled anchor]

Also am I the only one who thinks ceras bite cooldown is overtuned? 🤔

[golden coral]

Well, deino isn't considered an apex, just like stego isn't

[golden coral]

:(

[golden coral]

Nope, you vomit an omni and a stego in the same amount of bites (given the same amount of food in their stomach)

[grizzled anchor]

Thats stupid... I think they should do so it will never take less than 2 normal bites to make small things vomit and then scale with weight so it will still be balanced when the big stuff comes out

[grizzled anchor]

wdym deino isnt an apex?! It definetly is in my book lol

[steep echo]

This but plus a cutoff point. Above a certain weight you're immune to cera bacteria.

[cosmic pelican]

That will probably happen once cera packs will be slaying adult rexes on every server, but until that happens Im sure me and my friends will have a wonderful time abusing it😄

[cosmic pelican]

Ive made adult stegos puke as a juvi cera so i very much doubt that

[grizzled anchor]

I think immune would be too much but if it takes like 15 bites and the cera risking dying with every bite it wants to land thats still fair. Of course this would need testing all we can do is speculate

[cosmic pelican]

Oh wait misread

Sorry lol

[golden coral]

Because they don't seem to want that in the game, just like stego. Both of them could be ramped up in power to be proper apexes, but apparently not. I'd rather make them both as powerful as trike and rex, but well, don't think that'll be a thing.

[steep echo]

I mean if you keep making a rex vomit it'll have no stamina left and no time to recover before it starts starving to death

[cosmic pelican]

Vomit sickness messes with stamina thresholds, so unless you run out of stamina instantly youll always have some in the tank

[steep echo]

Outside of its weight range, Ceratosaurus should play by the same rules as other mid tier carnivores, wearing it down bite by bite

[golden coral]

Basically, no food, no stamina, being sick = so if you eat, you just puke again, and so on.

[cosmic pelican]

But the starving to death part is true

[golden coral]

Oh and when one cera dies, now they are harder to kill

[grizzled anchor]

stego is already absolutely overpowered for the current roster. That will probably change once bigger dinos drop but rn it definetly feels like an apex 😄
Deino on the other hand is a joke compared to a stego. There is no 1v1 that the deino will win, it takes at least 2-3 skilled deinos to take down one stego which is ridiculous considering that the deinos bite should be hitting ridiculously hard.

[cosmic pelican]

Stego is deinos only bad matchup, even yourself admitted that every carnivore needs a bad matchup

[golden coral]

Deino is by no means a joke compared to stego. Deino can instakill stuff better than stego can. And stego is not overpowered at all, it's rather weak for what a stego can be.

So stego does by no means feel like an apex, at least not if you compared it to how trike and rex have been described

[grizzled anchor]

A rex should 1-2 shot a rex. If it does bone break with the headbutt the cera wont stand a chance after tanking one headbutt. So realistically every bite the cera wants to land is the risk of him dying. But we'll see how they balance it out Im not very hopeful it wont be either OP af or way too weak when it releases.

[grizzled anchor]

I said in the current roster. So yes if u take trike and rex into the game this changes but rn theres nothing that can compete with a stego. gotta read more careful 😄

[golden coral]

Well, hopefully rex and trike is properly powerful, so people can realize how weak stego has been/is, would be fun

[golden coral]

Right, but currently it's still very weak

Most things hunt it far better than they could hunt a deino

[grizzled anchor]

Yes it can but compared to a stego meaning if they fight the deino feels just as weak as every other dino which picks the fight against the stego

[grizzled anchor]

Thats just because the deino is in water so of course u wont be able to hunt it. The power and tankiness is still heavily on the stegos side.

[golden coral]

Deino is more tanky than stego

[grizzled anchor]

weak? What? Its the strongest dino in the current roster and u call it weak?

[golden coral]

Yes, for being what it could be, it is

And it's not the strongest in the roster, there are far better playables overall

If you're only looking at raw damage, sure, but I'm looking at the entire roster, and every matchup

[grizzled anchor]

If it is like it "could be" then there would be nothing that can kill it. U gotta think about balancing not it being at its peak XD

[golden coral]

Though even then, deino lunge does more potential damage than any stego hit

[golden coral]

Well, you're the one that argued deino should be an apex

I'm just applying the same to stego, if deino could be powered up, to be a proper apex, so could stego

Currently neither of them are, they're not considered apexes, they're not as powerful as the apexes are meant to be

[grizzled anchor]

Yes it should be but it doesnt feel like it thats what I said.
And a Stego should also be careful of crocs. Its not a oneshot but near water the deino should have the upper hand especially if it lands the first hit. Rn stego dont need to care about anything so they feel like an apex rn. Deinos still need to fear stegos thats why I said it doesnt feel like an apex as soon as the stego steps in the picture.

I guess we wont come to terms in this topic so Im not sure if it makes sense to keep discussing about it lol

And every heavier and bigger dino added will cause the deino to be less viable (meat shields are already a thing will only get worse then :/ )

[golden coral]

Right, and I'm saying stego should also be one if so, and that I don't think stego feels like an apex either, for what a stego could be and how it should work. That's really all. I don't really mind deinos being scary for the other apexes, including trike and rex and all, (except spino that's probably going to be hunting deino and not the other way around), but then I also think stego should be properly anti-speed/agility and full powered, like deino would be. You want stego, and rex and so on to be afraid of a deino. I want anything that isn't allo/alberto sized or larger (and in their case, coming in pairs at least), to be absolutely terrified of fighting a stego.

You want deino to feel like an apex, I want stego to feel like one too. In deinos case, it's a matter of being able to punch up to other apexes, in stegos case it's a matter of being able to punch down properly as it were.

[grizzled anchor]

I dont know what u need so it feels like an apex to u. Im always looking at the strenght to roster factor. And since its the strongest it does feel like an apex to me. Maybe that differs for us and thats why we dont really understand the others points 🤔

I do agree with u (besides that while spino is a danger for croc it should be much slower than crocs in the water). But since theres nothing allo/alberto sized in the game yet the stego kinda already has this reputation. Nothing in the current roster will fight it. Deinos on the other hand have no chance against stegos and we all know the croc fishing of stegos too well. Sadly it doesnt look like theyre even thinking about it because stego and deino both have been in this position balance-wise since I started playing this game and that was waay back on Spiro still. Lets hope they reconsider when they add bigger dinos to the picture. Otherwise we might not see any stegos. Crocs still have safe space of water but even their number will greatly shrink when everyone plays rex.

[mint star]

sorry but what exactly is the strongest, I’m missing context

nothing will fight stego?

as it is now?

[grizzled anchor]

Right now the strongest is stego with the deino being second in place. I dont think Erik and I disagree in that point 😄

[mint star]

no it isn’t

stego is nowhere near the strongest

[grizzled anchor]

Whats the strongest then? tell me

[mint star]

Deinosuchus

[golden coral]

I could give you an entire list of how I would rework stego, but my main point was simply that you don't feel like deino is an apex, and I feel the same for stego. We both have different wishes for how the respective playable should work, but we both feel it should be better. So far, we agree, yes?

[mint star]

if we are talking in a survival sense, pteranodon is

[grizzled anchor]

Ever fought 1v1 against a stego? 🤔

[mint star]

brother, you can fight stego 1v1 as a tenonto

[grizzled anchor]

yes basically

[mint star]

they can’t do anything because they’re too slow

[grizzled anchor]

are u on crack?

they hit u twice as teno and ure dead wdym lol

[mint star]

it’s literally as easy as

position in front of stego

tail slam

walk forward

repeat

or alternatively, fight it with two ceratos by just constantly making it vomit

[grizzled anchor]

as stego its as easy as press head against wall -> ez win against anything

[mint star]

ok

[golden coral]

I would point out that, that, is why stego is bad

[dusky surge]

so wrong. stego beating deino does not make it the best. its just a single favoured matchup

[golden coral]

You immediately reffered to "use terrain/hide", rather than fight

[mint star]

but if you can’t eat or drink with your face in the wall

don’t you die slowly

[golden coral]

And that would be one of the things I would rework with stego, and part of why I consider it bad. Though terrain in general is.... an issue to say the least

[dusky surge]

THE FACT THAT YOU CAN COWER IN A CORNER MEANS UR OP

[mint star]

hell I’m pretty sure omniraptor can solo a stego if it’s good enough

[grizzled anchor]

Theres is no bad matchup for stego tho 🤔

[mint star]

considering stego can’t use its AOE attack for 3 seconds after a swing

[golden coral]

Ceratos, omnis, dilos, tenos

[daring spindle]

There’s a video of that, yeah, and the stego even went to a rock

[golden coral]

Most things that can handle a stego quite well, unless the stego uses terrain all the time, and even then, there are in some cases ways around it

[grizzled anchor]

U cant just say that is better because the player behind it can win if hes more skilled?! U gotta think about the fight when both parties are equally skilled. And that is ALWAYS in favour of the stego.

[dusky surge]

besides teno, omni, troodon, cerato, deinosuchus, other stego and diablo

sure

[mint star]

how is standing face first in a rock skill related

[golden coral]

If it comes down to skill, I'd argue the other playables have it easier overall being good

[grizzled anchor]

equally skilled players in mind. Then this list is much shorter.

[golden coral]

Due to stegos very clunky attacks (jab is rather clunky aside from the side jab, and power attack has cooldown)

[mint star]

can’t Diablos literally face tank the first swing, knockdown or stun stego, then run off

or did the knockdown get removed

[grizzled anchor]

Was just an example thats not what I call skill? Dont put words in my mouth lol

[golden coral]

I think knockdown got fixed Owl

But they might still be able to stun, possibly

[mint star]

hell yeah

[grizzled anchor]

I dont take dibbles into the picture since theyre not officially release to evrima so they're not properly balanced

[golden coral]

But at least no more stego-tipping

[golden coral]

I mean, even officially released, they're not properly balanced

[grizzled anchor]

Sadly very true but you would expect they are XD

[golden coral]

Won't be until we got the full roster and final version

[grizzled anchor]

So never? XD

[golden coral]

Part of why there's this whole issue with carno, and stego, and so on. You have playables that would, if properly balanced, wipe the rest of the roster.

Roster of small/small mid sized critters + hunter meant to hunt small game + anti-flank critter that should excel vs anything relying on speed/agility

[grizzled anchor]

That is not balanced then. Balancing takes all current playables into account and tunes it so its not invincible.

[golden coral]

No, it would be balanced if we had a full roster

[mint star]

that’s balancing for a fighting game

[golden coral]

Cause then carno would have larger predators to worry about being bullied by, and stego would have larger predators hunting it in packs/solo

[mint star]

rex is almost certainly going to be invincible to more than half the roster

[golden coral]

But because we don't have them, yet, carno can't be as good at its job as it should, nor can stego

[mint star]

this is a survival game, not a death match raagh kill kill burn kill destroy game

[golden coral]

Deino kind of can, but it's somewhat limited to water (and just drink in safe spot, boring as that is...)

[mint star]

can’t fight stego?

walk away

you’ve won the engagement

[grizzled anchor]

Alright u guys win just make it invincible ignore the current roster. Im tired of discussing it and repeating the same points over and over. If u think in a survival game we dont need balanced fights then so be it. I guess I have other expectations to a balanced game. Peace out

[mint star]

oh wait I misread the initial message

(it isn’t invincible but sure)

[grizzled anchor]

No but as erik said it would be if its "balanced" which is the exact opposite of balanced to me. But we were at this point already 40 mins ago so Im tired of it. U 2 can keep this discussion up, Im clearly not qualified to talk about something being balanced or not. 🤷‍♂️

[golden coral]

You shouldn't really see it like that, you can discuss as much as anyone. It's just a difference of how to approach balance. You're looking at it from a "can you fight it", while they're looking at it from a "can you survive it". You don't need to have the ability to kill a deino or stego, you just need the ability to not die outright from encountering either of them. At the end of the day, your only goal is to survive, no matter if other things are surviving as well or not.

[dusky surge]

The game should NOT be balanced around who can fight who

if you can flee a threat, you have that advantage

[grizzled anchor]

Ive made my point that every playable needs at least one evenly matchup to keep it entertaining, and if u dont agree u simply dont agree. Im not saying that everyone should be able to fight anything just that there shouldnt be anything that is so powerful that it doesnt need to worry about anything. But as I said Im tired of this discussion. Was fun while it lasted but at this point we're just repeating ourselves XD

[dusky surge]

and stego has many matchups where it's threatened

if we wanna go down this route, what does deino have?

deino can ignore ANYTHING that isn't aquatic

[slim dragon]

Deino's biggest threat bar itself is actually...
beipi

[mint star]

which is inherently hilarious

[dusky surge]

LMAO TRUE

[mint star]

Now that I think about it, if juvenile deinos spawn at the same size they do now, austroraptor will be one hell of an efficient predator

[leaden remnant]

they were able to 1 tap but not anymore

[leaden remnant]

oh then you mean 46.8, but still, what da hell boi

[leaden remnant]

a 4 second raptor pounce to a 1350kg carno does not put it down to half blood

[shadow vortex]

Welp, that was what I experienced yesterday, at least.

[leaden remnant]

i was a 500kg carno, got a 10 second pounce on me, 7 seconds by a fg, 3 by a sub, took me down to 60%

i barely ran tho, straight up rammed their faces and nibbled them to death

[steep echo]

well around the 50% mark it does go 47.8

Then it lingers there until 60%

[leaden remnant]

you mean 46.8

cause a raptor runs at 46.8

and ive never seen a pachy go faster than that

[steep echo]

Its speed graph looks like this

Raptor is 46.8km/h yes, but I said it runs at raptor speed because it exceeds that. I suppose I should have specified that

[grizzled anchor]

Thats a roster issue tho not a balance issue. There is simply no other big (semi-)aquatic. I wish adult beipi would be strong enough to pose a threat (to baby crocs ofc) at least damage wise basically being a little glass canon when it comes to baby crocs. It is possible to kill a baby croc (or at least was) but its way too hard. Thats why I hope they add a Suchomimus or another mid-sized semi aquatic. Spino would be an option too but I think a more evenly matchup would be healthier so both species control each others population. But sadly I think it will be a looooong time til we see another semi-aquatic.

[grizzled anchor]

The fact that it was able to is absolutely ridiculous and shows that the balancing team seems to be on the carnos side when it comes to buffs and nerfs 🤔 This should never happen. Or they simply didnt test anything lol wouldnt be the first time 😄

[leaden remnant]

there is no balancing team

[grizzled anchor]

Even worse lol

[leaden remnant]

it is dondi

[grizzled anchor]

Well that explains why the balance update are absolutely wild 😂 u can just feel and see how its not balanced objectively. Maybe they should set up a balancing team then. 🤔

[dusky surge]

They have QA and Hypno for that

[grizzled anchor]

If I think back there have been alot of times where single species were going nuts because they overtuned stats

[grizzled anchor]

How can a QA say its good to oneshot an omni tho 🤔
Im also wondering how often the QA is actually used to test things. The frogastrophy is a good example of "who tf tested this?!". XD

[dusky surge]

what

what are you even talking about

[grizzled anchor]

The frog army update? invincible frogs swarming the map?

this one 😄

[dusky surge]

how is that anything to do with balance

[grizzled anchor]

Nothing, I said before Im wondering how often they actually use QA to test stuff and that was just an example of that statement.

[leaden remnant]

@coarse blaze a pounce doesnt obliterate your bones and make you useless

thats why pachies have the stun

[dusky surge]

ah yes, it only obliterates your health and bloodpool and makes you useless, very different

[leaden remnant]

never heard of someone being practically unable to fight back with a pounce

so no

pachy bonk and pounce are very different

[dusky surge]

do you just... tune out when pin is involved? what's going on with that

[coarse blaze]

Except if it's under a specific weight it's an instant kill basically.

[dusky surge]

no wait, you've actively argued for pin many a time

[leaden remnant]

we talking about pounce not pin

[dusky surge]

so i genuinely dont know how tf you came to this conclusion

[leaden remnant]

not the same thing

[coarse blaze]

A pounce is a pin for things under a certain weight

[dusky surge]

pounce IS pin the hell are you on about

[leaden remnant]

latching on a teno is not a pin

[dusky surge]

much like ramming a teno is not a stun :)

[leaden remnant]

self stun

you miss and you bonk your head to the grass

[dusky surge]

oh, you're right, raptor has it better

because of course it does

better stuns on smaller creatures, better chances against larger creatures

but nerf pachy amirite

it can damage RAPTOR

that's just NOT ON

[leaden remnant]

yknow man

[coarse blaze]

I love not being punished whatsoever for missing my pounce and I can just readily do it over and over until I land on top of a: juvie cera, a herrea, a dryo, a galli, a hypsi, basically half the rooster at some point and get a free right click kill with no consequences.

[leaden remnant]

everytime we discuss it never goes right cause we both have different views

so there is zero point at all in arguing about this

[coarse blaze]

The glass cannon rather should be the one punished exclusively.

[dusky surge]

There is a point, I find it fun

[leaden remnant]

it's not gonna get anywhere, we ain't gonna come to any sort of conclusion

i can tell you find it fun

[dusky surge]

You picked pachy, your first mistake

[coarse blaze]

Pachy needs some TLC and I don't even know what the poor thing needs at this point.

[leaden remnant]

either way, im not gonna argue about this, have a nice one

[coarse blaze]

It's just not good

It's not the worst on the roster either but it's not great

[dusky surge]

I'd argue it genuinely is one of the worst on the roster lmao

Give me one worse

[coarse blaze]

I feel like me giving unfinished playables is cheating

[dusky surge]

I have a better time even with them LMAO

[coarse blaze]

It ain't right, I'm still waiting for diablo to somehow get some new nerf to make it not great

I'm shocked teno is still mostly fine

[dusky surge]

Hypsi's agility, stam and ability to just vanish into the underbrush of the forest is unparralelled

Dryo can actually throw hands against predators, or just sprint fast enough to avoid it, combined with agility

[dusky surge]

https://tenor.com/view/winner-wordle-loser-winner-winner-chicken-dinner-i-win-gif-3333350146570319218

[coarse blaze]

I feel like once hypsi gets (hopefully) gets climbing it'll feel more fleshed out.

[steep echo]

Maybe I'm just crap but if Im battling as a dryo, I can't do a stationary move without taking a hit myself

[coarse blaze]

I saw a dryo kill a small-ish herrea a day or so ago

[steep echo]

Yeah they can kill subadult herras just fine. In my experience an adult herra fight is a 50-50

Although I wish the kick animation didnt last so long

And also did stun, forgot to mention that

[grizzled anchor]

pounce makes u not unable to flee or fight back. But one broken leg is in most cases a death sentence. Besides the point that pachies should not actively hunt people but defend themself while raptors need to hunt.
But I do feel like pachies stun is just too long it should be a bit shorter

[dusky surge]

actually it does lol

for several animals, you flat out cannot sprint or use alt attacks while being pounced

for others, you cant even move at all, you're forced to take full damage and remain entirely stationary

[tropic horizon]

pachy...

[grizzled anchor]

not being able to sprint is annoying I dont know why they put it in. slower sprint would be okay but not sprinting is a big oof. But still the raptor wont pounce u to death while the broken bone just leaves u unable to move and forces u to sit in a bush for several minutes.

bone break -> u cant sprint, or walk for a long period of time and are forced to stay stationary.
pounce -> might (!!) immobilize u for a short period of time but afterwards u can move freely to try and flee the scene.

So yes bone break is worse XD

[dusky surge]

you actually can sprint with fractures LMAO

[grizzled anchor]

bro your sprint is slower than a normal walk

If u call that a sprint this discussion is useless lol

[dusky surge]

and if you do DARE to sprint after a pounce, you will generally just die of bleed damage

[grizzled anchor]

from one pounce? VERY unlikely if u had full blood. Also u can cure bleed with mud but u cant cure a bone break.

[dusky surge]

yes. from one pounce.

pachy has had its bleed resist buffed THREE TIMES specifically to deal with raptor LMAO

[coarse blaze]

Spamming pounce can kill you, omni's pounce doesn't take a lot of stamina to use and you're not punished for missing. 5-6 good pounces can kill something like a teno.

Also they're right, one pounce does kill pachy.

To be safe bite them once, once after said pounce and they won't make it.

[grizzled anchor]

I dont get why people say omnis pounce doesnt take a lot of stamina. We pounced a carno like 4-5 times and I landed 7-8 solid alt attack headshots and he could still flee while we had no stam because of the pounce. We were 3 raptors.

[coarse blaze]

Because it doesn't, for what pounce does it's not a lot of stamina.

[grizzled anchor]

One bone break also kills raptor so dont see the problem

[grizzled anchor]

They should just fix the bucking being useless and its all good

[dusky surge]

Takes more stam to buck than actually pounce LMAO

[grizzled anchor]

Yes thats ridiculous I totally agree there. Dont know what they thought when doing this tbh 😂

[coarse blaze]

Except pachy has to aim to break your bones, omni doesn't even need to aim when you can just spam pounce until you eventually land on said target.

Omni also doesn't need to pounce at anything specific to land the pounce, you just look in the general direction that isn't the animals face.

[grizzled anchor]

But a pounce is also easily countered just go to a tree and youre good

[coarse blaze]

Yeah, run to that tree and deal even more bleed to yourself to maybe scrap the raptor off. 👍

Omniraptor is one of the strongest playables and is by far one of the most forgiving to play.

[grizzled anchor]

like the trees are so far away lol.
We can duel it out if u want Ill tell u that 9/10 times the pachy wins because it just needs one hit for certain death while one pounce is not a certain death.

[grizzled anchor]

U ever played omni? With the amount of desync its the most punishing to play XD getting hit from 20m away taking away 1/4 of your life pool is not what I call forgiving

[leaden remnant]

good sir both have to aim

[coarse blaze]

Again, because you seem to have missed it.

Pachy needs to aim to break a bone, if it missed it's stunned and that's more than enough time for an omni to pounce onto the pachy and one pounce kills a pachy.

[coarse blaze]

I have! I've played a good bit of omni, I've played the majority of the roster excluding maybe dryo.

[grizzled anchor]

Bro u act like the pachy dies instantly with the one pounce that is NOT the case. Also pachy dont need to aim they only need to aim if they want to break a specific bone.

[leaden remnant]

9/10 more like 11/10

[grizzled anchor]

And also the pachy is NOT a carnivore it does NOT need to hunt. Keeping this in mind the pachy needs to land one hit and it can easily escape. Realistically it hits once and just kills the attacker because he cant do anything.

[leaden remnant]

if anyone here wants to do some 1v1s to prove that it's nonsense im more than open to

ill even spam the pounce without aiming to show how stupid it is

[grizzled anchor]

True but I guess the raptor can get lucky once or twice 😄

[leaden remnant]

luck is not involved

if the pachy misses you can get a really nice pounce in, get your bones broken and die miserably

[grizzled anchor]

its a 1 win tolerance XD if both parties are equally skilled the raptors loses 99.9% of the time

[leaden remnant]

the pachy doesnt have to be equally skilled

the pachy only needs half of the skill

[grizzled anchor]

I havent played that much pachy and its been a while. Not sure how they changed the pachy or if they changed it at all lol

[leaden remnant]

played pachy not long ago

it felt like the most cheap playable there is

killed 6 raptors cause they were spamming the pounce

killed two ceras without an issue

[coarse blaze]

Do you like how the raptor got rammed and hit and still the pachy died after that single pounce and a single bite?

[leaden remnant]

survived two carnos without an issue either

[coarse blaze]

Very fair, very hard.

[grizzled anchor]

pachy just doing circles is the first stupid mistake.
Second is trying to trade blows instead of trying a bone break.
This video proves nothing imo lol

[leaden remnant]

if the pachy wins with one hit it's fair to die like that

[coarse blaze]

It rammed the omni, the omni's bones didn't break

[grizzled anchor]

I also saw 2 pounces there

[coarse blaze]

Yeah, it's 2 clips together

[grizzled anchor]

Thats a game problem then if it doesnt register lol

[coarse blaze]

What are you on about? The ram hit

[grizzled anchor]

And didnt broke the bone like it should?

[leaden remnant]

it proves nothing besides the fact that this pachy was not good enough

he had a tree right in front of him to use and 15 different chances to win the fight and still lost

[coarse blaze]

Because it's locational, a ram doesn't guarantee a break if you miss. If you pounce anywhere on a playable that isn't it's face you'll connect regardless.

[grizzled anchor]

Im also guessing this was on a duel server so not a survival fight which changes alot of things too.

[coarse blaze]

Pachy has to aim, omni needs to look in a general direction.

[leaden remnant]

do you wanna settle this with a 1v1

[leaden remnant]

pachy doesnt have head detection like raptor pounce does

[grizzled anchor]

tell me one spot where it doesnt break something.
U hit body the body breaks,
U hit the head the head breaks,
U hit the leg the leg breaks.
Theres no other areas to hit?!

[leaden remnant]

so the opposite

[leaden remnant]

tbh hitboxes suck

you can hit the head and it does a body fracture

you can hit the air and it does a head fracture

[coarse blaze]

If I weren't on the HT maybe, is there still a PVP server up?

[leaden remnant]

im not in ht either

[coarse blaze]

I'm saying I am on the HT

[leaden remnant]

oh

also yeah i got a pvp server where we won't be disturbed

it's not mine but i have admin there so

[coarse blaze]

I know there was a fairly decent PVP one a bit back, I just didn't know if it were still up or not.

[leaden remnant]

uh

i don't know the server you're talking about right now

[grizzled anchor]

pachy too only if u want the specific leg break for example u gotta aim. but every break is enough for the pachy to escape which it should usually do in a survival fight. Pachy are the most toxic players in the game killing everything on sight and thats not because the bone break is so bad XD

[coarse blaze]

I do not remember the name, I know I practiced with a few people from this server in there but it had a weird name. Not something I would remember on my own.

[leaden remnant]

i understand

[shadow vortex]

Norden?

[coarse blaze]

I think so, yeah

[leaden remnant]

well, if you want to swap branches, im more than open to test our views

[grizzled anchor]

Yes I also was mostly fighting on Norden

[shadow vortex]

Yep it should be online.

[coarse blaze]

The one where you go into the discord and get admin, etc.

[leaden remnant]

oh yeah that's norden, it's still up

[coarse blaze]

"Insert playable" being the most toxic is beyond me, most of the playerbase is toxic and I see KOS'ing in every species. It's not pachy specific.

[leaden remnant]

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/ihq2JR0hi2ciXgazY/d1337jQPrHiY?invite=cr-MSxjRWcsMjUxOTE1ODY2LA

rip cera 2024-2024

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/ihmZkisZGFKI2GPBh/d1337G6Zhdi8?invite=cr-MSx1ckwsMjUxOTE1ODY2LA

[coarse blaze]

God forbid you're a cera and tenos get an eye on you if you're wanting to talk "toxic"

[leaden remnant]

both of them attacked first btw

[grizzled anchor]

Its common for carnis since they need to eat, but I only saw maybe a handful of not kos pachys (theyre not a carnivore so pure bloodthirst). And I almost never see tenos for example hunting people they mostly defend themself like a herbivore usually does. Of course theres toxicity in every species 😄

[leaden remnant]

playing pachy basically means you wanna break someone's bones

[coarse blaze]

It's not pure bloodthirst, carnis are threats.

[grizzled anchor]

exactly, they just wanna break someones bones and play with him til hes dead

[leaden remnant]

p much

[coarse blaze]

If something can kill me, I'm killing it.

If it's not something that can kill me, I don't bother it.

[leaden remnant]

mr corvians, are you willing to swap branches so we can settle this?

[grizzled anchor]

Ah thats why u start hunting them? XD weird we dont see that in reallife. Would love to see a deer chase a baby wolf

[leaden remnant]

uhh herbis are crazy irl

[grizzled anchor]

I thought its very common knowledge that pachys are just aggro towards anyone and anything

[leaden remnant]

they're more aggressive than carnivores

they are out of their damn minds sometimes

[coarse blaze]

I'm not swapping anytime soon, another time though maybe. I'm waiting for Diablo to be pushed onto the public branch so I can practice with it too.

[leaden remnant]

alright sure

[grizzled anchor]

They mostly flee theres very little herbis who actually fight 🤔 at least I cant think of many.

[leaden remnant]

i mean yeah they usually flee, but if they have no other choice... damn boi

[coarse blaze]

I think herbis are more aggressive than carnis more often than not

[leaden remnant]

and they won't refuse a chance to kill something that might kill them in the future

at least if the kill is an easy, fast kill

[grizzled anchor]

Thats a different story, but they dont actively hunt carnivores XD

[coarse blaze]

I don't know about that

[leaden remnant]

i meannnnnnnnn they don't track them and kill them like carnis do but...

if they see one it's on sight

[grizzled anchor]

They will attack if the carni gets too close but they wont spot a baby carnivore in the distance and go after it 🤔 that would be a new one for me

[coarse blaze]

I won't lie, when I played teno last and a duo of ceras attacked me first and when they eventually disengaged I 100% chased them down.

[leaden remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-the-isle-path-of-titans-gif-23526654

just remembered this gif exists

[coarse blaze]

I have that GIF saved

[leaden remnant]

sometimes they do sometimes not

[grizzled anchor]

Thats another story tho, they started the fight XD

[leaden remnant]

depends on how they feel

[leaden remnant]

das pretty common yes

[grizzled anchor]

From what I know and of course every animal will behave differently (like hippos are bloodthirsty monsters) but most herbis have a specific comfort zone and as long as u dont enter this comfort zone they wont necessarily attack u

[coarse blaze]

A group of diablos in a lot of cases will actively just kill whatever is around

[grizzled anchor]

We dont know how this started tho

[leaden remnant]

that is correct yes

i once was hiking with my family, we found a group of cows in the middle of the road and we just walked thru the group

[grizzled anchor]

Oh and even hippos have a comfort zone but Im sure if they could they would kill anything they see lol abosule monsters

[coarse blaze]

I don't know where the whole "herbivores aren't violent" stems from

[leaden remnant]

im not kidding when i say i almost stepped on a bull's horns

and it did not give a solitary (insert bad words here)

[grizzled anchor]

Who said herbivores arent violent. Its more like herbivores wont pick a fight if they dont have to. Besides in real life every fight is a threat for multiple reasons (like infections of even small wounds etc.)

[leaden remnant]

however when the adults came in the group got up and began showing aggression (was many years ago)

[slim dragon]

Domestic animals are much less agressive towards humans than wild ones
That's why they're called domestic

[leaden remnant]

they were wild ones

[coarse blaze]

"but most herbis have a specific comfort zone and as long as u dont enter this comfort zone they wont necessarily attack u"

[slim dragon]

Wild cows ?
Like... aurochs ?

[coarse blaze]

I promise you a moose isn't going to be chill with you walking up to it

[grizzled anchor]

And where do u see theyre not violent? 🤔 am I missing some hidden message? XD

[slim dragon]

Cape buffaloes ?

[leaden remnant]

well tbh not really wild

cause cows cant survive on the wild

more like unsupervised, free cows

[grizzled anchor]

violence doesnt have to mean they hunt everything they see. They will get violent if u get too close is what I read in the message u quoted

[coarse blaze]

You're claiming that some have this veil of a comfort zone before they'd attack you.

That's not true whatsoever

[leaden remnant]

that's with everything ngl

if a stranger gets close to you, you're no longer comfortable

[keen plover]

What is this discussion about

[leaden remnant]

and if he keeps getting closer you'll either get away or fight him

[slim dragon]

nerfing pachy

[keen plover]

Really?????

[leaden remnant]

not nerfing pachy

[grizzled anchor]

Thats what it started as XD

[leaden remnant]

no

it's about when herbis get aggressive

[coarse blaze]

The sheer amount of bulls that just attack people for no reason is actually insane, there's no comfort zone there. They just decide they don't like you there and go

[grizzled anchor]

Not really nerfing pachy but why raptor has no stun on a missed pounce but pachy has a stun on missed ram

[leaden remnant]

the comfort zone was broken and they decided to attack you

[coarse blaze]

It was about omniraptor having 0 punishment for missing pounce despite pachy having a recovery for missing ram.

[leaden remnant]

in this case their comfort zone was the entire plains

[coarse blaze]

You stood within their general line of sight and they decided they didn't like that.

[keen plover]

I don’t think anything should have a penalty

[grizzled anchor]

And u know youre not inside their comfort zone because of what?
Also animals tend to be more aggressive or what fits it better is protective if they have children for example.
But I think we should end this discussion about IRL animal behaviour and go back to The Isle 😄

[leaden remnant]

everything is comfortable or uncomfortable with something being around, and won't hesitate to attack anything

[leaden remnant]

pachies would be apexes then tho

you would literally spam the living hell out of the ram and kill everything that exists in this universe

[coarse blaze]

How do you know that they're uncomfortable at any given point? You're adding human traits to an animal at that point, animals just do things half the time.

[grizzled anchor]

I bet if they see u from 1km away they wont do that. It depends on how close this line of sight was. Also if they have children.
Another big factor is experience so if a bull has bad experience with human it tends to be more careful and "violent" if it spots one

[leaden remnant]

^^

evaluate the fight, go for it or don't

[keen plover]

Make it so that isn’t the case? Rework fractures?

A bad mechanic shouldn’t be ignored imo

[grizzled anchor]

Its just a term comfort zone lets not start discussing terminology 😂

[leaden remnant]

how would you rework fractures tho

it's fine as it is rn

[keen plover]

No it isn’t

[coarse blaze]

That's not just a term though, you're actively saying "It's a comfort zone" but don't take it literally like a comfort zone.

But you're right, this is off topic and should be dropped at this point. Agree to disagree.

[grizzled anchor]

I think pachys are fine as they are rn. They dont need to be able to absolutely wreck everything. hit and flee is what they should do or hit and kill for smaller things. Its not a carnivore. (who knows that might change with mutations I sure hope not tho XD )

[leaden remnant]

this

one hit one fracture dip

pachy being able to immobilize and kill things like in these two scenarios would be absolute cancer

[leaden remnant]

this one

[leaden remnant]

and this one

[grizzled anchor]

I think both the raptor and the pachy are fine like they are. They should just make bucking actually useful and thats it. Theres definetly bigger problems in terms of balancing.

[keen plover]

I disagree. I don’t think they’re fine as is. Also they won’t wreck everything seeing as they’re capped at carno. Trying hitting a Stego, Diablo or deino with your ram. I think a mechanic that is meant to be used as a hit and run tool shouldn’t make you take additional hits. If the problem is that Pachy’s will be strong with such a change, then you make fractures not as strong in certain areas like they are rn.

[leaden remnant]

i agree

[keen plover]

I also don’t think Omni is fine. Grapple needs nerfs

[leaden remnant]

i mean, with all due respect, the thing of trying to hit a stego/dibble/deino with your ram is dumb

nobody on his right mind would ever choose to do that

as long as a pachy can effectively repel a carni attack from a carni that can actually kill it on land, it's fine

and since it can do that rn, it's fine

it's only repelling not counterattacking

[grizzled anchor]

Basically every matchup u just mentioned is a fight that the pachy can run away from so its their own fault for trying to fight it? (dont know dibbles speed tho maybe this one is a different story)

[keen plover]

I mean you literally called it an apex if it could hit and run. It wouldn’t be seeing as it can only hurt the small side of the roster.

[leaden remnant]

nono i said it would be an apex if it could spam the living hell outta the ram

a ram to the face does a crap ton of damage so imagine spamming that

like no stun when you miss or hit, but straight into another bonk

you would be able to facetank 2 carnos one at a time

first bonk gets head fracture, you good taking little damage cause headshot multiplier while you devastate the carnos

i jsut realized how calling it an apex makes zero sense whatsoever

wtf was i thinking

not apex but unkillable

[grizzled anchor]

Is grapple even a thing in normal evrima already? Never seen it happen so far so I dont see any problem with it

[keen plover]

Not if you changed fractures. I’ve seen some cool suggestions from others.

Head fracture for example could reduce damage by 25% instead of 50%. While blinding the creature if they’re running. Walking / standing only blocks the other edges of your screen.

Body fracture could greatly reduce agility instead of drastically increasing stam cost. It should still increase stam cost of course.

Leg fracture could allow certain creatures to use their alt attacks.

Pretty much allowing you defend better.

There’s a reason why 2 Pachy’s can currently bully a solo Carno and it isn’t because of its base stats

[keen plover]

HT only

[leaden remnant]

probs would be good

[grizzled anchor]

Then I wouldnt take this into account since its hordeTESTING. Its normal for new mechanics in hordetesting to not be balanced yet

[leaden remnant]

honestly i would

[grizzled anchor]

hordetesting is very experimental especially with new mechanics its not really a representation of the smoothened version.

[leaden remnant]

i don't think it's that difficult to balance certain things

you can get qa to test if it really is balanced or nuh uh

like dibbles beating the crap outta stegos

[grizzled anchor]

It still is a new mechanic tho so of course it will take some time til its perfectly balanced.

dibble is a whole new dino thats a whole nother story imo XD

[leaden remnant]

i mean yeah but you don't need all of this to balance smth

you can suggest stats, discuss them, implement them, test them in private, see if they work, balance them more, etc

[grizzled anchor]

Im just saying when I said I think pachy and omni are fine (besides bucking being useless) Im not talking about new mechanics Im talking about the pachy and omni in normal evrima

[leaden remnant]

when pounce to pin was released, you could pin a 1 ton dibble

[keen plover]

I can agree with this. It needs some obvious changes though

[leaden remnant]

regardless of it being ht or not, this was just stupid

it's ht so you can't expect things to be perfect, but you can't expect things to be this horrendous

[grizzled anchor]

Didnt really write it clearly I guess 🤔 I meant pachy and omni in normal evrima

[keen plover]

I don’t think Omni should be able to pin healthy creatures that are larger than them. They should have to wear them down a bit more

[leaden remnant]

oh yesyes i mean evrima as well but im just responding to the thing that it's hordetesting

[grizzled anchor]

Dont know how u guys can play hordetest its a lagfest and just ridiculously long queues

[leaden remnant]

i dont

i straight up dont i just remember the first ht week

and das why im saying that sure it's hordetesting so you test things

but man certain things are just so so so so stupid that they don't make any sense at all

i think it's reasonable to say that a raptor pinning a 1 ton dibble is something that should've been seen millenia before it was released and fixed

[grizzled anchor]

Theres at least one of these things in EVERY patch the isle ever released 😂

[leaden remnant]

yup

i knew for a fact that pounce to pin was going to be stupid when it was released because it happens in every patch but i was not expecting that

i just think it's not that much to ask for things to not be broken as heck when they release

broken in terms of actually broken or unbalanced as absolute crap

[grizzled anchor]

I was actually looking forward to it because it meant that stegos actually have to fear a raptor pack. But I was a raptor main back then so I mightve been biased 😄

[leaden remnant]

well stegos can swing without stam rn

get on a wall and you win

[grizzled anchor]

wait what?

[leaden remnant]

there is no tiring stegos or anything anymore

get on a wall and you win, that's it

[grizzled anchor]

WTF?!

[leaden remnant]

or hug a wall as well, both work

[grizzled anchor]

Why just why... I never seen anyone complain that stegos are too weak 😂

[leaden remnant]

i dont understand why either

imma be honest imo nothing should be able to still be deadly as heck when outta stam

outta stam means time out goodbye it's over nuh uh you get what im saying

[grizzled anchor]

First of all whoever decides this definetly likes to play stego a bit too much and second where is Quality Assurance? Why dont they say "Are u out of your mind?!"

[leaden remnant]

but with how stam works rn... run outta stam means youre never getting it back

[keen plover]

Not even. It was to be more in line with every other animal. Everything can alt attack when out of stamina so why can’t stego?

[grizzled anchor]

Yes absolutely. No alt attacks. Higher bite cooldown. Only hope is the opponent is also out of stam or very low. But Ive read that u can still use alt attacks even when out of stam so idk what they did there

[leaden remnant]

why can everything alt attack when outta stam

[grizzled anchor]

Why can they alt attack when outta stam tho?!

alt attack uses stam so the logical thing would be it can alt attack without stam but guess the devs thought otherwise

[keen plover]

So they’re not completely defenceless?

[leaden remnant]

and why are they defenseless

[grizzled anchor]

Theres other attacks than alt attack??

[leaden remnant]

i know the answers btw im not being stuipd

[keen plover]

For herbivores when out of stam?

[leaden remnant]

they are defenseless cause you cant get stam back from 24.99% or less without sitting down

[grizzled anchor]

alt attack used to be the high risk high reward. And if abused u leave urself being vulnerable. Thats not the case anymore

[leaden remnant]

which is the stupidest idea ever

[leaden remnant]

cant tire things out and then properly kill them anymore which annoys me

[grizzled anchor]

They also have a not alt-attack? And imo its the price of stego and it was the only effective way to hunt a stego.

[grizzled anchor]

I miss Spiro tbh. It was simple but it worked, map felt alive and mostly good balanced at least better balanced than now. 🤔

[leaden remnant]

i agree

yknow smth you can do is go to spiro branch from time to time and just enjoy

[keen plover]

Sometimes you fight a lot of creatures. They shouldn’t be able throw numbers and win. It’s your goal as the predator to bait attacks and land it. The stam system also makes it impossible to regen it when under a certain threshold

[leaden remnant]

i do this sometimes

[grizzled anchor]

I did that sometimes but its so dead sadly. Not even a one server reaches more than 10 players :/ at least when I last tried it

[leaden remnant]

this is a good reasoning, however i believe that you should be able to throw numbers and win to a certain point

[leaden remnant]

ive seen hundreds of ppl say they miss spiro and i say well why not join the branch then

[keen plover]

I disagree. If they’re terrible then I have enough attempts to end them

[leaden remnant]

and they all say something that i agree with, which is that they'd rather enjoy updates than be in the past all the time

gets boring

[leaden remnant]

i mean if i throw 50 raptors at a stego...

[grizzled anchor]

well numbers win against a solo one. Put a second stego and theyre almost unkillable even with them not being able to swing without stam.

[orchid merlin]

For some reason they can track things down in game lol

[leaden remnant]

gotta say tho, if you can get em to swing each other it's gonna be hilarious

[keen plover]

And they’re terrible? I could see a lot of people pulling that off

[leaden remnant]

im just sayin, if i throw 50 raptors at a stego the stego should die

[keen plover]

If you’re good sure.

[grizzled anchor]

if theyre terrible u win with this limitation too. So idk for me its like they wanted to make the stego just a bit more op to make sure its not killable

[leaden remnant]

honestly bro i just dont understand the point in all of these things

[keen plover]

Not with the previous limitation. You only had 20 attempts

[leaden remnant]

change stam allow alt attacks without stam n more

[leaden remnant]

and then rebalance the entire game over something that's not enjoyable

[grizzled anchor]

that is without the regen in mind. If u stand still and only defend yourself u have more since it wont be 20 hits in a row.

[grizzled anchor]

Yes many very questionable decisions which were forced on the players which they clearly did not want.

[leaden remnant]

i mean if they want it or not... eh, not a big concern for me

[keen plover]

I mean the stego would also waste stam bucking. Also the fact that when you’re under 25% stam you can’t regen so

[leaden remnant]

but if it's clearly not even a good idea why even do it...?

i always say it test all the things you need to test if you want to but if they're miserable dont keep em

[grizzled anchor]

Thats just because the stam system is questionable. But still u couldve just reduced the stam cost for swing and youre good. Stego can go on a rock with only one way up and its unkillable...

[grizzled anchor]

Well it is an indicator to overthink your decision and maybe find another solution together with your community.

btw very chill dicussion, love it 🙂

[leaden remnant]

if it's clearly the best idea then what the community thinks shouldn't be that crazy

[leaden remnant]

same man, same, a rare thing in this discord

[leaden remnant]

but it has to be 100% the best idea

like not making stego able to dive swing underwater and be faster than deinos in water

[grizzled anchor]

especially balancing discussion tend to get intense quickly 😄

[leaden remnant]

or not letting a juvie raptor pin down a fg stego

[leaden remnant]

yessir

just as you said, i wish balance was returned to what it used to be

[keen plover]

For now yeah. I’m not disagreeing. A Stego with a brain isn’t dying in that situation. But honestly, I don’t think they should considering what they’re up against are small carnivores. Stego was a mistake to add this early though imo

[leaden remnant]

it felt good to know that the carno in front of you could obliterate you in a milisecond but that you could also do great harm in a very small time

felt like an actual battle lol

[grizzled anchor]

Thats fair enough. The stam now also feels okay-ish to me but when it first came out it was like "wth are u thinking?! u wanna kill your game or smth?" it was just unenjoyable. It was saved because it came with a new map otherwise the games playercount wouldve dropped massively

[leaden remnant]

i still think "wtf were yall thinking"

ive gotten used to it tho

[keen plover]

Anyway guys, take care 🙏

[leaden remnant]

you too man

appreciate the calm, enjoyable discussion

[grizzled anchor]

Theres some points in a game that absolutely cannot be changed lightheaded. And that is 1. vision (like nearer camera wth guys), 2. movement (at least in 3d games) and I cant think of a third one XD

[leaden remnant]

also about dis, i just believe that if they don't want the game to be a fighting simulator, yup boi i agree with it, but theres more obvious things

[grizzled anchor]

u 2 mate, cya 🙂

[leaden remnant]

smth that i dont like is doing something stupid and then saying it works perfectly when it clearly doesnt

removing the heart did absolutely nothing but inconvenience players

making stam this bad did absolutely nothing either but inconvenience players

[grizzled anchor]

Oh boy then uve been enraged by alot of decision they made 😂

[leaden remnant]

if it did, ppl wouldnt be so aggro

[leaden remnant]

i cant count the amount of times ive thought "what the hell is this"

[grizzled anchor]

Dont forget making stam bad while also adding a larger map. I still think it was a late april fools or smth XD

[leaden remnant]

also that

[leaden remnant]

i usually just post a feedback to get the frustration outta my chest

im glad feedback channels exist ngl

[grizzled anchor]

been there, done that 😂

[leaden remnant]

may have completely shitted on stam like 10 times or smth

[grizzled anchor]

Id love a bit more info of how much the feedback is looked at 🤔

[leaden remnant]

took me 4 days to explain all the issues i see with stam rn

[leaden remnant]

i mean they have a channel in which they can see the "best" feedbacks

and then they discuss them altogether

[grizzled anchor]

but everyone did that and they didnt backtrack they went on with it. I even remember seeing a stream clip where dondi basically said "idc what u want this is the best" something of that sort dont take me literally there 😄

[leaden remnant]

oh yeah

thats the kind of thing that i dislike

[grizzled anchor]

Hmm but seeing the most wanted feedback and actually consider of adding them are two different pair of shoes 🤔

[leaden remnant]

the "idc what u want" not really an issue for me cause sometimes ppl can say the stupidest things ever

but "this is the best" is what i really dislike

[leaden remnant]

sometimes they react to the feedbacks

[slim dragon]

Well, devs aren't entitled to doing whatever the community tells them to do

[leaden remnant]

unless it is an obvious fact then... mehhh

[leaden remnant]

also this

it is an act of courtesy that enriches the experience for everyone

"i dont really like this myself but alr since all of yall want it here you go"

as long as it aint smth stupid like adding a flying rex

[slim dragon]

Well uh
That's not really how you make a videogame
If you don't do it for yourself before doing it for anyone else, you end up doing a lame game

[grizzled anchor]

Yeah some people are out of their minds. But if the whole community says the game is not enjoyable anymore thats a sign. or it should be.
btw my internet crashes alot today so I might take a few mins to answer.

PS: it just crashed while writing this XD

[leaden remnant]

im talking about smth more simple

[slim dragon]

See, the stam issue isn't as prevalent as you say it is
Not everyone hates it as much as you do
Some people find no issue with it
Some people enjoy it more than the old stam system

[leaden remnant]

it does make playing a pain in the ass sometimes

or fighting things as a whole

cause now theres barely any strat, it's all brute force

[grizzled anchor]

The stam now is kinda okay. I think they found a good middle-ground. But when it was new it was stupid. Bigger map and they didnt change stam usage only the regen that wasnt the brightest idea imo

[leaden remnant]

with strat i mean strats that you would use like tire smth out so it can't fight back

[slim dragon]

It's literally the opposite tho
Now you need to manage your stam, which you didn't have to do before because there wasn't any punishment for being out of stam

[leaden remnant]

there was more punishment

couldnt fight back

[slim dragon]

Only as some specific species
Carnivores could still fight back with no issue

[leaden remnant]

eh, kinda true, kinda true

[grizzled anchor]

There qas u couldnt use alt attacks or the stego couldnt swing. Thats different now

[leaden remnant]

but you still had to manage your stam quite a lot

not as much as right now, ofc

[slim dragon]

Everyone abides by the same rules now
No more "avoid the rule of not being able to fight when out of stam because your main attack is a bite" anymore

[grizzled anchor]

Was dependant on species too, a raptor had to do more stam management than a cera for example

[leaden remnant]

and, honestly, i don't think stam should be so important that you must be punished with hell if you dont dare manage it correctly

but more of a "try it see what happens"

[leaden remnant]

yes yes

[slim dragon]

I see the point of it
In survival games you have many resources to manage
Health, supplies, ammunition, tools, and so on... in The Isle you don't have that many
So making each one of them super important makes it more of a proper survival game

[leaden remnant]

i understand that view

i just think it's better to let ppl enjoy themselves

not too many restrictions yknow

[slim dragon]

Honestly, I've been thinking on how to improve the stamina system to make everyone happy with it, but it isn't that easy

[leaden remnant]

i agree with that

cant really make everyone happy

[grizzled anchor]

Thats a fair point, but I still think they should match this to the playstyle. But I think they worked it out it was just at a way too early stage when it released

[leaden remnant]

i also believe that when they released the stam changes it felt like a quick, unplanned thing

[slim dragon]

My issue with it is that the punishment for getting out of stam is "stop playing the game for a very long time because if you get into a fight or a chase you die"
And anything that contains the phrase "stop playing the game" shouldn't exist

[leaden remnant]

making everyone have the same thing is just nonsensical imo

[leaden remnant]

thats a good one

i completely agree with that

[grizzled anchor]

Thats why its called a tiktok simulator now. I usually watch yt when I regen stam

[slim dragon]

But the issue is, this game is played in quick actions but also in the long run
So if you can get rid of the "out of stam" condition quickly, it defeats the point

[leaden remnant]

i tab out and check notifications

or open clash royale if im playing ptera

[slim dragon]

I thought that maybe, getting low on stam could incur a "exhausted" debuff that makes you slower and weaker and recovers over time, independently of wether you're resting or not
In order to keep the debuff of getting out of stam, without forcing the player to just sit down to fix it
But I don't think it would be that interesting either

[leaden remnant]

and then i get more involved into the notifications or clash royale and just dip

[sleek vessel]

waterfall drops need to be looked at, theres way to many waterfalls that have rocks you can slide in that you cant get out

[slim dragon]

Or maybe, it could be like some action-combat game,s where if you run out of stam, you can't use it again until you are at 100% again

[leaden remnant]

ehhhhhhh

dont know about dat...

but an exhausted thing would be cool imo

[slim dragon]

Don't know either
It would probably cause many issues I haven't thought of yet

[leaden remnant]

you have to sit down to get thru it

[leaden remnant]

yeah

[slim dragon]

No, that's the point
Forcing the player to sit down is telling them to stop playing
Which shouldn't be a thing that happens

[leaden remnant]

hm also true

[slim dragon]

I had already posted a rework for healing to get rid of the "sit and stop playing" gameplay, but it isn't that easy to make up one for stam

I like the importance of stam management and I want to keep that part of gameplay, but I can't deny that sitting for 4 minutes straight is very boring (although this only happens if you fall at 0% stam and for some reason want to regain all of it before starting to move again)

[grizzled anchor]

how about the lower your stam gets the slower it regens while walking/standing whatever but u have the option to sit down and regenerate it faster. This would not force u to sit down but still leave the option to do so

[leaden remnant]

pretty sure this was the first stam change

but then they slapped thresholds

[slim dragon]

That's basically the same as what we have now, but done slightly differently

[slim dragon]

Nope, there was never a gradual stam regen thing
I wish there was

[leaden remnant]

i see

[grizzled anchor]

exactly why I had this idea. It wouldnt take away the importance of stam that much but still lets u play the game instead of forcing u to sit down in a bush somewhere

[leaden remnant]

i don't even remember the first stam change ngl

[slim dragon]

It's still pretty much the same thing
The fact you HAVE to sit down once under 25% stam to regenerate is an issue tho

[grizzled anchor]

it changed so often idk either I know it wasnt enjoyable at all tho. I think u just couldnt regen while walking at all but I might be wrong.

[leaden remnant]

yeah lol same thing here

too much confusion and trying things out to notice n remember the changes

[slim dragon]

During gateway's release trotting didn't regenerate stamina
Walking did
But walking is so painfully slow they changed it

[grizzled anchor]

walking still is painfully slow I hate it and just sit down instead of walking

[leaden remnant]

yup walking is so damn slow

[grizzled anchor]

I also never seen anyone walk they always just sit down til they at least can trot to regen again

[leaden remnant]

i do that

[coral wind]

Why not allow Dino’s to trot and still regen stam? Just make it slower the lower the stam.

[grizzled anchor]

Lol I made this suggestion earlier XD

[slim dragon]

I've also thought of a "double stam bar" system
Where you got a small bar that depletes and regains quickly
If you empty it and keep spending stam it empties you main stamina bar, which also reduces the size of your "small stam" bar
But that... doesn't really serve a purpose in the current balance of the game

[coral wind]

Oh

[grizzled anchor]

@coral wind 👆

[slim dragon]

I did suggest some time ago that dinos should go faster/slower depending on their remaining stam
But changing dinosaur speeds is troublesome

[grizzled anchor]

Hmm this could work but only if its only a small difference. So even with low stam it needs to be fast enough. Probably so much so that it doesnt makes that much sense in the end.

The problem is we cant really test it out we can only assume how it feels like with our ideas

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message @weak jetty this won’t decrease the allo player base lol, it’ll do the opposite it’ll increase.

Because they can just sustain themselves off of whatever allos and further multiply easily

[distant torrent]

the amount of allo megapacks will be absolutely insane

spiro’s cannibal carno 2.0

[mint star]

@weak jetty denied, immediately

[weak jetty]

Well i tried 😅 thats ok tho it was just a thought gotta know what the peeps think 😚

[mint star]

if allosaurus, or the rex, were cannibals, it would literally turn the server into 100% allos

there would be nothing else because it’s a self sustaining ecosystem

[brave estuary]

@weak jetty Nice art, but terrible idea. Sorry

[distant anvil]

@short meadow That is another great point. Dilo sounds super thick when it's walking. Just as loud as a Cera or Teno and folds like an Omni when attacked. It's a mid sized glass cannon and should be treated like that.

[nocturne ice]

#balance-feedback message Oh man, you wrote my hope down. Tho I know and fear there will sadly never be something like that. But it really sucks to die through canni herbis. Herbis should stick together as a herd like it would have been irl

[dusky surge]

so if i get attacked by 2 pachys as a teno, and defend myself, im punished?

[nocturne ice]

well I see the problem I agree

[dusky surge]

what about mixpackers that send in "fodder hypsis" to force you to get a punishment for fighting back, making it way easier to hunt you

systems like these should never exist

[nocturne ice]

that is actually why I never wrote this. Cause I really have no clue how to do this like it is meant

It is not about defense, it is more about those who attack herbis.

But I'd love to figure out a system that just punishes herbis that started the attack on herbis

[dusky surge]

the reason you have no clue is because its not a problem that can be remotely solved through these systems. its an exceptionally complex problem that can't be solved by just slapping on a punishment system

every single punishment system you can add has around 3 use-cases for trolling

[nocturne ice]

yeah. I am still thinking about a system. And will reactive the idea when I got. But just as a start I support this idea, cause I'd love people to discuss about it to give me some ideas and show me the problems^^

[dusky surge]

i frankly think the best option is to not add a system like this

if its that huge an issue, have external moderators exist on unofficial servers for people who hate the behaviour

[nocturne ice]

everyone is free to have their oppinon. I am not here to persuade someone. I just put the link here to have people to talk with me about this^^

For example there could be something more like. If the herbis kill more than one herbie and being the one who started a fight.... Maybe with a good KI systam this would be possible to figure... the attacker loose all their diets or vomits, or whatever xD The punisment idea is also discussable^^

You could be safe if you got damage first and killed the canni herbi for defense. So the system knows, you weren't the attacker

[dusky surge]

so if you attack someone first because you know they're part of a greater mixpack and you're already being attacked by their raptor buddies, you get punished?

[nocturne ice]

Well as mixpacking from carnivores with carnivores and/or herbis is another huge problem. But I guess this needs another solution. But as the idea of hunting mixpackers (and don't get me wrong, I hate them aswell) is maybe not our responebility to do.

[dusky surge]

Hell, that doesn't even account for accidents, like tenos/stegos accidentally killing their own young or packmates (a common mistake) or just hitting small frail hypsis by accident

Or omnivores, who we'd then need to discuss if they do/do not count as "fellow herbivores" and thus must follow the same rules as herbis and be treated as herbis, or are exempt

[nocturne ice]

that is why I guess their is the border for kiling more than one herbi

[dusky surge]

A core part of game design is generally not slapping on punishments for doing the wrong thing, especially in a sandbox, because those punishments CAN be abused, ESPECIALLY if they rely on external factors like other player's behaviour

[nocturne ice]

I know, I just liked the idea and wouldn't mind to give it a try to see what the problems would be. But I also understand why this is really difficult and nearly impossible to be handled by an AI

My herbi got now killed so many times by another herbi, that it just sucks to have nothing against it. So yeah. I am open for ideas.

[slim dragon]

Is herbivores killing other herbivores even an issue
I thought it was supposed to be part of the game

The issue is that herbis aren't balanced to survive against each other

[dusky surge]

it should be part of the game tbh

[nocturne ice]

As I understand "The Isle" as a survival game (like it is called out), I think it should be as realistic as possible. As people behavior can't be changed by talking. This is a good idea in my oppinion.

[slim dragon]

Is herbivores killing each other unrealistic ?

[nocturne ice]

yes imo. They are walking in huge herds

[dusky surge]

not at all, especially when food is involved

[nocturne ice]

Especially killing one of the own species.

[dusky surge]

have you heard of zebras

[nocturne ice]

Ofc xD

[dusky surge]

have you heard of what zebras tend to do to their own herd's young

its rather violent

lots of stomping and screaming

[nocturne ice]

If you want to say they would kill their onw youngsters, I would really want to see a link from that^^. Hurting is something else imo.

[dusky surge]

not their own, but absolutely will kill A youngster zebra that isn't their own

[nocturne ice]

Their need to be hurting for education

[dusky surge]

not hurting. killing

[nocturne ice]

Pls sent me a prove, if you got one through pm. Tbh, I can't believe it.

Never heard of that.

I have seen herds protecing their youngsters

Not killing them.

[dusky surge]

Adult males will do it, and I believe it's an act of dominance. Many foals present a threat to its dominance, so they'll just kill any foal that isn't their own and may present a threat to its dominance

[nocturne ice]

I know this exsits between lions. But as bigger a herd as lower the chance to be the one that get attacked from a carnivore

So I don't think that works for herbis.

[dusky surge]

Okay but they literally have been seen DOING it

Like, it's an objectively recorded behaviour that has been reported several times

Killing rival offspring is done to make females more likely to bare their young (as removing the rival offspring means the female is open to mate as they no longer have young to care for), ensuring their position in the herd as dominant male, and generally ensuring that most of the herd's offspring are your own

[nocturne ice]

Well if it is true (and I really need to find a prove for that before I can believe it), there is still the problem about adults killing adults (or nearly adults) Would be risky for a herbivore. Cause every fight is a high risk and cost energy btw.

[dusky surge]

Hippos.

Hippos will kill other herbivores, even adults, readily.

[nocturne ice]

So letting this point beside and accepting .... like getting killed by an older herbivore till.... lets say till you have reached the second stage. Let's talk about that. And I do not mean the kill between herbis maybe to fight for a female. (There is still the boarder of killing more than one)

[cosmic heron]

There is a pretty simple solution for that problem:

1: Disable the damage from herbivore on herbivore. 2: Make it as a setting for servers to allow or not to allow. 3: Gather the data of which servers players will prefer to play on. Specially when playing as a herbivore this way we could know if this would improve the issue as a whole. The system could even be improved on species specific skills or mutations.

[slim dragon]

Disabling damage from herbivore to herbivore ? That isn't a solution, that's an extra problem

[cosmic heron]

Can you elaborate on that?

[slim dragon]

Sometimes you need to be able to damage another herbi because they're anooying, or in direct competition against you
If you, for example, need food but they're trying to take it from you
Or imagine a hypsi just deciding to block your path

Also makes groups of herbivores needlessly OP as now they can't hit each other accidentally, even when forming a big mass huddled together and spamming their attacks through each other (think of stegos)

[dusky surge]

Some other herbi stealing your food, trashing your nest, constantly body blocking you, etc? Haha cope lol

[cosmic heron]

Lets see. The need for food would work more as race. Who gets first to it would get it. If you cant get to it its your problem. Blocking your path would be quickly solved by some pushing mechanics. Also animals using their body to block access to another animal is pretty much a common ocurrence IRL. Group of herbivores are OP by nature

[slim dragon]

No need to make groups more OP
Also herbivores killing each other in nature is also a common occurence
More than bodyblocking is

I'm not sure why you would want to turn the survival game into a race rather than a survival game

[cosmic heron]

Are they really that common in nature? Can you back that with some sort of data?

[slim dragon]

Yes
Check out on the behavior of zebras, hippos, rabbits, sometimes deer too, horses (obviously), every bovine in general

[cosmic heron]

You clearly doesnt understand biology and animal behaviour to know that most animals will avoid unecessary fighting and herbivore on herbivore killing is extremelly rare in nature. Did you ever even been close to any of those animals you mentioned? You think if we put 100 cows and bulls together and leave them for a year how much of them will be killed by another bovine in the timeframe of a year? Yeah the number is between 1 and 0

[slim dragon]

I clearly grew up surrounded by animals (wild and domesticated) but ok
You probably know more than I do

[cosmic heron]

You still missed my whole point. Which I made when I stated the solution. Make it a setting and see which players who play as herbivore would pick. Then we will know which one would improve the game experience and which one would be bad. Same way that most of the No AI servers are basically empty all the time.

[dusky surge]

Using specifically cows and bulls is literally a strawman (straw...cow? IDK)

Not every herbivore kills each other, but there exists clear-cut examples of herbivores killing other herbivores, sometimes for no reason

Obviously, the big docile bovines with acres of grass are not going to have murder on the mind

[cosmic heron]

Think like that. Log on the game and count how much herbivores you see grazing on the fields. There is clearly a lot of green area on the island and very little herbivores to eat it. Lets say if there were and overpopulation of herbivores then I would agree with you.

[alpine plover]

Go on YouTube and search “zebra k!lling foal/baby”

Top 5 results are your proof

[dusky surge]

cant post them here because of animal in duress but it exists

[cosmic heron]

So if I look on youtube for human swiming with sharks and find a result would it be proof that this is the standard human behaviour?

[alpine plover]

because grass isn’t a necessity to compete for, therefore both given the example you shared and irl there is no intent of murder or competition because it’s plentiful for everyone. But since we’re talking about specific diets, competition is risen to be wanting to have the more beneficial plant, thus the stronger and bigger bovine/herbivore will kill or injure any other herbivore intending on take the better patch of plant. It’s literally a documented concept.

[alpine plover]

What? That’s nowhere near analogical. Are humans showing dominance or/are trying to mate with female sharks for better reproduction of their offspring? Are we killing baby sharks for that reason?

[cosmic heron]

Not saying its not documented. But given the demographics of the island it would not be the case. Also I am just saying that if something is on youtube doesnt mean its a pattern.

[alpine plover]

Why wouldn’t it be the case? I’ve seen dibbles kill other dibbles for horned melons but I’ve never seen another dibble kill another dibble for a specific patch of grass?

[cosmic heron]

Yeah because there is very little spawn of food for them. Taking in consideration how large the island is. It feels like you want to make the gameplay for herbivores miserable. Specially for new players coming to the game. Which I cant grasp why.

[nocturne ice]

I really like that idea 🙂

[golden coral]

Not sure that's a good idea, wouldn't it just result in herbis just figthing anything else without ever worrying about hitting each other?

[dusky surge]

yup

in fact, it'd make omniraptor near WORTHLESS against packs

omniraptor on your friend? Just swing at them, only the omni suffers

[nocturne ice]

well yeah this a problem I agree. Cause this would be total unrealistic

[cosmic heron]

I mean IRL is really hard for you to hit someone you dont want to hit in a melee combat. The game hitboxes in this kind of game is always bad. Because you have almost no control of who you are hitting when they are close. And it gets really worse with the desync issues on the game

[hollow topaz]

Sounds like a server issue tho, not a balance issue

[hasty coyote]

Here’s my issue with just turning off damage between herbivores: it would cause a downward spiral that inevitably makes this game bird bath similar. First, herbivores can’t kill each other so they all just clump together. Carnivores can’t kill the clumps and kill each other or starve. Eventually most people end up as herbivore and the carnivores just can’t survive. So it ends up being mass groups of herbivores clumped at migration zones with a few tiny carnivores clumped in the outskirts living off ai.

[cosmic heron]

A issue that cannot be solved since its outside of the devs control. IRL if someone grabs another person and you want to hit it with a hammer you could ealisy hit the target you want because you have full control of the way you swing it. In a game that doesnt work the same way and its makes the game experience bad

[hollow topaz]

I’m just saying if I were a mixpacker I would just simply grow a larger dino and then body block the water from herbis and they could do nothing about it

Or you know, someone spawns into your nest as a baby and then destroys your nest and you can’t kill the little troll

Sometimes you 100% mean to hit something, it would suck if you couldn’t.

[hasty coyote]

Plus, what about systems like Diablo spar and pachy’s clash mechanic? Do those just get turned off or can I stun lock people til they starve without any counterplay?

[cosmic heron]

There is definetely a problem but being clumped together would make a efficient strategy but boring gameplay and wouldnt happen that often I assume

[cosmic heron]

could be a way to activate spar mode for example by doing the agressive call

[hollow topaz]

Mixpacking would be pretty awesome if there was no damage because I could just run in front of someone for my carni friend and let them take some shots at them

[hasty coyote]

Genuine question here, have you not already seen massive groups of people who just cuddle puddle together? Like I play Diablo on horde test. When we don’t kill each other we get groups of like 12 diablos in one place and we all start getting bad diets. And that’s just because a decent amount of diablos were just not killing each other. Now if they physically couldn’t fight each other, I can def see that number going up to like 20 diablos and then also stegos and whatever other herbivores are there too.

So you’re right, it would be boring, but with your solution, it is now the ONLY option.

[hasty coyote]

So they would need to rework the entire system as well?
This seems like a lot of effort for very little gain and a lot more pain.

[cosmic heron]

Another pretty simple solution. Put food in different spots. Make them divide themselves to go to different areas. Also having a way to enable a spare mode isnt that hard to Implement. Like if you do an aggression call and you enable the damage on other herbivores for a short amount of time. Done!

[white kindle]

I would rather suggest that you won't do damage to members of your pack than all dinos in general

Like if you're in pack, you don't deal damage
You wanna kill some troll? Kick him of the pack and then stomp him

[cosmic heron]

I need to mention its not little gain. The game will only benefit if you make the herbivore experience better. The better it is more people will play herbivores and more challenging and a bigger supply of food for the carnivores

[hasty coyote]

So.. migration zones. And even with that 3 call, the whole point of spar is to not deal much damage but still fight.

[cosmic heron]

Migration zones the way they are doesnt help much since you force the same specie to the same location. Make like two or three different migration zones active at an point in time. So you have to make decisions to each zone you go. You cluster together less food you divide and go to different migration zone more food

[hasty coyote]

Arguably it makes it worse. If more people play herbivore, you end up with the migration zone clumps. And then no carnivore can fight those clumps. As such, the game ends up being you die alone to whatever carnivores remain or join the clump and never die.

[hasty coyote]

So rework more systems so this one can maybe function. You’re basically asking for a complete redesign of the gameplay system just so that you don’t get mauled by another herbivore… meanwhile the devs intend that to be part of the game

[cosmic heron]

gonna put this in a pretty simple: You make the gameplay less fun. Less people gonna play. And a game centered on social interactions between different dinosaurs thats not good. Like I said before. Make it a setting that you can easily enable/disable and put it in a few servers. Then you will be able to see if it works or not. Do you have better ideas on how to improve the part of the game?

[hasty coyote]

I’d personally would enjoy the game more if they actually encouraged herbivores fighting. Namely, make food spawn with some trees/bushes/shrubs that constantly replenish. That way you know where food will respawn, and when it becomes scarce, you get a supply of food if you’re able to defend it.

This way, those who just get bored and start killing everything have something to occupy them and the rp players have more warning that the person may be aggro and have reasons to be aggro themselves.

[cosmic heron]

Ideally the threat of carnivores lurking wanting your precious meat should be enough to make the herbivore experience less boring

[hasty coyote]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Really depends on the species. Look at Diablo and stego atm, very few things can actually kill them once they are adult. If we make their only threat carnivores, the moment they find a friend they are nearly invincible… except other herbivores that could also be threats.

[golden coral]

Same issue, you can now just dogpile target, with no worry about friendly fire. There is also friendly fire reduction, 10% or something like that.

[white kindle]

Oh, there's a reduction? I'm kinda new to the game, thanks for info) Don't think it'll help tho, when you try to deraptor your friend 😅

[golden coral]

I think there is, or has been, haven't kept up with patches lately. But it was at most 10% or so, so didn't really do much, probably for a reason. Don't really want people to be able to just ignore hitting their friends after all. And yeah, though you can deraptor your friend if you aim properly, at least I think so.

[hasty coyote]

I have done it so it’s def still possible, but it is difficult if they keep squirming with the raptor on them lol.

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message another day, another teno nerf suggestion

[tight cove]

@native spade no because that makes deino to easy to sustain

[mighty loom]

Isnt other deinos and fish atleast fat and protein already?

Its been a good year since i played deino but afaik you get pretty much everything already with ai and stuff

[daring spindle]

deino gets carbs from rotten schooling fish already.

ai spawns have been working for me on hordetest since the last patch

[mighty loom]

well its tuff indeed but deino has like 1:30 or 1:45h stomach capacity

[daring spindle]

deino is in a good spot difficult-wise

[coarse blaze]

I think it should be hard to grow, the saltwater mutation made it easier honestly now that you can move to hotspots.

They're cannibals, I'd assume the 3 deinos in one spot wouldn't be an issue.

I mean, it's always been a cannibal and it's the only water-bound animal. It's also an apex currently so there shouldn't even be that many ideally.

If those 2 deinos, 2 being the max for a group ate the 3rd, hunger wouldn't have been an issue is all I'm getting to.

[safe perch]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/1270165467637612584 Adaptive struggle would be extremely helpful for beipis and pteras.

[dusky surge]

@trim sphinx because every other animal has a directional attack without stam, and it should be no different

[primal heart]

Yep maybe we should let omni can pounce with out stm

And carno can charge without stm too

[dusky surge]

those are different though LMAO

stego is using a directional attack, not its main ability

powerswing is stego's main ability, and it cannot use that without stam, just like omni pounce or carno's charge

[primal heart]

You can't say tail attack is kinda direction and attack.

[dusky surge]

what

[primal heart]

It does massive damage

And it cost 5%stm

[dusky surge]

most alt-attacks cost less and do a lot more damage than the regular bite attack

so not really a big deal there

[primal heart]

Yes we should just let player can't use alt attack when no stm

[dusky surge]

no, we should let players use alt attacks when out of stam, i'm literally arguing for that

[primal heart]

Tail attack with out stm just let stego imbalance

Make them unkillable by carnivore

[dusky surge]

no? It's following the same rule as every other dinosaur

[keen plover]

What carnivores? lol Raptor can maul them when they're out of stamina

[primal heart]

maybe dibble can kill stego because they stun stego without stm cost

[dusky surge]

actually, no, scrap that, hypsi doesn't have a directional attack

[dusky surge]

dibble can, cera can, omni can, troodon has a ton of damage now so it can, teno still can, dilo can, deinosuchus can literally just grab a swimming stego

but yea besides all of that, stego is unkillable

if we exclude all the things that can kill it, it's unkillable

just like how carno is unkillable the moment i ignore everything that can kill it

[primal heart]

Next time you can say hypsy can

[dusky surge]

no, because that'd be stupid.

[keen plover]

Not surprising that the 6t animal, even without stam can kill small carnivores that play badly..

Teno, carno and cera when out of stamina can still fend off any tiny tier with little effort if they're bad.

[dusky surge]

^

Literally try and approach a tenonto that knows how to alt-attack as a small tier in a fight LMAO

stego is FAR more gracious with its attack openings and speed

[keen plover]

Also again, just land the pounce as raptor. They can't buck you off

grapple also exists

[dusky surge]

still shocked stego's stam cost wasn't fixed before we went live, that thing is disgusting

[keen plover]

Some strong mutations are still in as well lol

[dusky surge]

dondi even acknowledged the fact the costs were absolutely not meant to go live

[dusky surge]

yea, that too. Gastro needs a whole-ass rework, as do the speed muts

[keen plover]

Gastro: Increased healing rate after eating. So maybe 15 - 20%? Only works if you're low on hunger as well. So if you go over 50% hunger, you don't heal any quicker?

[dusky surge]

Possibly like this?

Gastronomic Regeneration: Increased health/locked health regeneration by 50%. Duration scales with food consumed. (1 second for every 1% of food eaten)

[keen plover]

How would that work with cerato for example. I'm assuming there would be a cap somewhere. If it's 100% then it's still far too easy for it since you can wait for the food to drop to 99%

[dusky surge]

Cerato will always be an issue due to manual vomit

[keen plover]

disable the mutation for cerato

nah but there's surely another way

[dusky surge]

Either that, or do it like this

Gastronomic Regeneration: Gain a health/locked health regeneration boost that scales with your stomach's fullness (up to 20% with a full stomach)

That way, the only metric is how well fed you're keeping yourself. If it works for doing damage while starving, regenning while full is fine

No one can abuse that

It literally just encourages you to do what you should be doing anyways

[keen plover]

I guess yeah

[dusky surge]

So it encourages you to win the hunt, THEN eat so you have a nice full stomach and recover faster, a far healthier way to use that mutation that actually aligns with the game's primary objective for its gameloop

[keen plover]

Also realised how dumb this is. I'd just abuse it by letting my hunger hover over 47% with a body around lol. But tbf you wouldn't be healing all that well if you're standing so eh

[dusky surge]

yea, exactly

[keen plover]

Yeah that would be better

[dusky surge]

as for nocturnal/photosynthetic tissue

During [insert time here], gain a 5% boost to health/locked health/stamina regen and slow to food/water/nutrient decay

So now it's actually survival oriented and more of a "generally better at a specific time", while not impacting combat massively

[keen plover]

this i like a lot

[dusky surge]

Oh, and the last problematic mutation

Congenital Hypoalgesia:
If you are on full health, and an attack does 100%-200% of your maximum health in a single attack, survive it on 1HP.

Yes, still a combat mutation, but arguably more manageable for certain creatures. Also, the pre-requisite of being on full health means players won't be abusing this all the time. Ideally, it'd be used more for fleeing a sudden threat more than anything else.

At larger sizes, this loses value as the amount of attacks that CAN one-tap you decreases

At smaller sizes, you're still vulnerable to things that can't one-tap you as you would be without the mutation, and are primarily ensured ONE get out of jail free card (unless the animal can follow up and kill you after the first one-tap strike)

[trim sphinx]

yah but not everything has a one shot attack like steg

[keen plover]

Personally, I dislike mutations that makes you more tanky than you should be.

[trim sphinx]

it should be nerfed if that’s the case

[keen plover]

Where do we draw the line with this though? Should none of the creatures be able to alt attack when out stam? Since technically you'll still be able to one shot something when out stam. Teno / cera / carno vs troodon for example

[dusky surge]

I agree entirely, but I'm trying to remain on theme

[dusky surge]

I mean... technically, yes they do, because of how the different sizes and growths work. A dilo can one-shot a dryo, a dryo can actually somehow oneshot a herrera, a cerato can oneshot an omni

Not fair to exclude stego because it's rightfully as big and strong as a stego should be

[trim sphinx]

one shot to everything tho besides deino

and now dibble never thought it was fair to lose like 3 hours to one hit from a steg

[trim sphinx]

i mean when they made it so people could attack without stam in general was a bit dumb

[dusky surge]

it literally cannot one-tap dibble, it doesn't do enough damage

also, deino can one-tap everything, including stego

[trim sphinx]

yah that’s why i said also dibble when referring to things that can’t be one tapped

[trim sphinx]

deino can’t one tap a stego ??
(i’m talking about adult creatures )

[dusky surge]

it can, deino can drown stego easily

[trim sphinx]

thought we were talking about range attacks

[dusky surge]

a recent buff allows deino to drown even adult stegos if they're swimming

[trim sphinx]

didn’t you say earlier pouncing and rams were obviously differnt

[dusky surge]

everything is melee in this game, wdym range attacks lol

[trim sphinx]

we are in the same convo you said attacks like that were different but now your gonna bring that up ?

i do not understand

thought we were talking about its main attacks ?

[dusky surge]

the tail jab can only one-tap many of the creatures with a headshot. I assumed, when you said "one tap", you were referring to the power swing, which actually can consistently one-tap most of the roster

[trim sphinx]

one tapping has always felt super off
sucks ass to lose all that time

my full cera died to a one tap right on the tail from a steg

which was crazy

tippy of the tail and he fell over

[dusky surge]

okay but like, you, as a cerato, can easily avoid that, and it's not like stego is the only animal that'll be able to kill that fast (rex/trike)

[dusky surge]

also that's 100% latency and not the alt-swing then

[trim sphinx]

dunno i was facing away from it and it charge swung my tail tip and i died

[trim sphinx]

can easily avoid it yah but it most fights you get hit at least once

tail tip mostly

[dusky surge]

then dont fight it if you can't take the risk of it hitting you?

[trim sphinx]

why wouldn’t i fight it ??

[dusky surge]

because there's nothing forcing you?

[trim sphinx]

i dont see how that reply adds up with anything i was saying

i was just bringing up a scenario

[dusky surge]

okay, and I don't know why stego should be helpless out of stam, that's my scenario

[trim sphinx]

i don’t see the need for attitude or sarcasm in was just trying to talk with you damn

[trim sphinx]

nothing but the hunger bar

[dusky surge]

even that has never forced me to need to fight stego in my time playing

Cerato: Smell the air, 95% of the time, you will smell food within range
Deino: You can drown it as it swims over, no biggie
Omni/dilo: Small enough to be able to comfortably consume a boar/goat/deer/random corpse and be fine, as well as slow hunger drain
Troodon: Literally can fill up on compy
Carno/herrera/ptera: You already have no chance of fighting it and winning, and for the latter 2, fish.

[trim sphinx]

so why play if you don’t wanna have fun
fighting stegs is fun as most things like cera and utah

playing just to keep your dino alive by eating whatever seems so boring

[dusky surge]

yea, it's fun to fight stego, for sure

but like... I go into that with the understanding that it's risky business and I very much might die

I'm not sure why it one-shotting is objectively a bad thing when that is kinda part of what it does as an animal

i'm of the opinion that it should be fun to fight AS stego too

It's why I hated the fact that it used to not be able to use the jab out of stam, and why I now hate the cooldown on the power swing, insane stamcost on the power swing, reduced damage for no reason and lack of any QoL on the power stance at all

having stego incapable of doing anything but biting while out of stam makes it unfun. fun should be a two way street in a videogame, stegos aren't just big AI for you to hunt and kill, it's a player who ideally wants to play the game and enjoy the fight too

[trim sphinx]

you play steg ?
i can’t get around how slow it is i don’t really play steg since it can’t really fight anything unless it’s just as slow

it can kill everything sure but every fight feels terrible with that thing

probably one of the most frustrating things since stuff can just run from ya

[dusky surge]

oh, not at all, i find it egrigiously clunky, unfun and garbage. The fact that anyone does play an animal that actively feels that bad is baffling to me, and the fact even more people want that horrible animal to be even worse is even moreso

[trim sphinx]

i constantly see packs of like 11 stegs and just wonder why

[dusky surge]

stego being slow is fine. what i can't get around is it being THAT clunky and godawful to actually fight with/control. This has been a problem for stego since its release, and has never gotten better, even though there are clear solutions to fix the issues

[trim sphinx]

it feels like grass eating simulator

[dusky surge]

deinosuchus, a slower animal, which relies entirely on patience, has a FAR more fluid feeling kit that actually feels fleshed out and on-par with the rest of the roster. Stego being "big" does not excuse the terrible gamefeel on it

if rex ends up controlling and feeling half as bad as stego does, there'd be riots. it's excused because it's stego, and people agree to despise it

[trim sphinx]

rex so fait is looking kind of fluid

long alt bite (if it was one in the animation) but it looks ok? so far

they said it is suppose to be « fast «

[dusky surge]

there was a short, but beautiful time, where hordetest stego felt close to good. Before it got hit with the avalanche of unneeded nerfs to stamina, a cooldown and a damage nerf on an attack which exists to literally just do high damage (to fight off the very rapidly coming rex)

[trim sphinx]

but a lot of people are saying steg and rex are the same size so i wonder how that’s going to play out

[dusky surge]

of course, people complained, and stego got banished to "why are you playing this, play dibble, it's better" realm

[trim sphinx]

never got to see it

[dusky surge]

rex is bigger, much bigger

[trim sphinx]

yah i thought so

being same weight as a steg didn’t sit right
can’t wait to see it hopefully sometimes soon

dying to get allo

anyways it is 2 in the morning oh my i am going to bed goodnight :)

[dusky surge]

lmao

goodnight

[dusky surge]

@nocturne ice what have i done to offend you

[nocturne ice]

nothing.

Because I down voted?

I can explain if you like.

Tho I am playing The isle rn and neet to take attention. So I will do later. I hope that is ok

But to conclude. There is a part of your idea I really like and a part I really don't like. So if you would have suggested seperate I would have given different votings^^

And yeah I know that the 6hr cool down makes it kinda complicated to say ideas seperate.

[ancient crystal]

thats doesn't matter , you are a user and you have voice

actually .... why the dibble is 200% of the legacy's dibble size?

it shouldn't be more than 2 tons

[dusky surge]

what did you not like

[dusky surge]

because that's what the devs wanted it to be i guess, they've said that's the weight it's staying at

[nocturne ice]

Nocturnal/Photosynthetic Tissue about that I miss the 5% more moving speed.

Congenital Hypoalgesia this one would just work after getting hit. So I prefer it, before/while getting hit.

[mint star]

the 5% movespeed needs to go

[nocturne ice]

well I guess we have different oppinon on that^^

[leaden remnant]

we still have it

they didnt change values

[nocturne ice]

Tactical Endurance and refering to that I just would agree, if one charged tail attack from an adult Stego wouldn't cost nearly 20%. it would need to cost around 8% imo.

[nocturne ice]

well it is a suggestion in the balance feedback to do so. And I downvoted it. That is why we are discussing here xD

[leaden remnant]

yus

[nocturne ice]

Tho I like the idea you got for this one Gastronomic Regeneration @dusky surge The way it is atm feels really wrong imo.

And as there is way more for me to down vote then to upvote, I did downvote it.

[dusky surge]

The movespeed destroys matchups, is a powerful tool of cannibals and overall will cause many balance concerns for the future

[dusky surge]

The problem is that it is impactful when getting hit, that's exactly what's wrong with it. It makes powerful animals designed around bullying (like cerato) really bad at it because they cannot actually do the damage to pressure, say, raptors or dilos, as it takes more attacks to scare them off. It creates situations where, say, rex would just be able to be invincible against triceratops because it decided on one mutation, which is exceedingly unfair for the trike

[nocturne ice]

Well as you know, I hate cannibals, but he possibility to run, in case they haven't choose this mutation is something I can hope. And as the Deinosuchus that are smaller are slower on land than bigger ones, at least from same size or just a little bigger you could try to run away.

[dusky surge]

What it does is make it that you either
A: Take this mutation
B: Die to cannibals because they can outrun you

The speed boost is empowering cannibals, and forcing non-cannibals to have less mutation options if they don't want to get cannibalised

[nocturne ice]

well yeah that is a point

[dusky surge]

Already, people are making "cannibal builds" for many dinosaurs, and almost ALWAYS they contain the speed boost mutations

Because if the prey literally cannot run, you will ALWAYS be able to cannibalise it far easier

[nocturne ice]

yes this is an argument.

[dusky surge]

Also, mixpackers benefit HEAVILY from this mutation, as do KOSers. Take, for instance, ceratosaurus, who after taking this mutation, can now outsprint both pachy and teno. If it has even 1 friend who also took this mutation, the one option those animals had (fleeing the ceratos) is gone. They are dead.

[nocturne ice]

with this I guess you have pursuade me.

what about my other points

[dusky surge]

Mutations should be a choice to either spice up and have more fun with your unique playstyle, not a forced "play this way or die"

[nocturne ice]

that is why I really like mutations like the saltwater or rain mutation^^

[dusky surge]

Oh I agree. Stego tail costs way too much. There's no argument, I would hope they would fix that on top of changing the tactical endurance, because it's absurd how reliant stego is on it

[dusky surge]

I do too, I LOVE those mutations, they're super creative and fun

[nocturne ice]

😄

that is why I really miss the rain. What just happend to it xD

well how you changed it. I like it and support your ideas 🙂

Cause this mutation: Congenital Hypoalgesia, is not that important to me. As I barely use it^^

[dusky surge]

Oh, it's super OP

[nocturne ice]

I never really tried as my playstyle is mostly to move around hotspots. I don't like these huge PvP zones.

Actually I even didn't get how it works. Does it mean, for larger species itself or just larger than the one you have?

[dusky surge]

anything larger than you in weight

even 1kg heavier

[nocturne ice]

oh I see

how hard is the amount? Have an example for me?

[dusky surge]

15% damage resist.

Cerato's bite goes from 150 to 127.5

[nocturne ice]

well, this is really bad I agree

[orchid merlin]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778350260027129865/1270332607879446631/Y6HMTQrFM72-cHWaBXqNOg.mp4?ex=66b350ef&is=66b1ff6f&hm=5eb47cdac2c28e8b43ff7ae8eb30d956868e561d9d9a062bdf456c8a2d69aaa1& @spring stirrup this is what the second time you’ve complained about Herrera? If you still fall for that classic food bait then that’s on you if I’m being honest. You could’ve atleast looked up to be sure there weren’t any

Anyways kudos to the Herrera who planned that good ambush. His patience payed off

[golden coral]

It's not, legacy dibble is larger still I think.

[ancient crystal]

it was surely bigger , my bad 🙂

[dusky surge]

why roblox lmao

[orchid merlin]

So now your insulting me for my preferences? Okay

You play omni isn’t that right. They can one tap stuff like gallis and with pounce to pin they can obliterate most of the roster. You can’t be talking about “OP”

[spring stirrup]

Where is the balance if you oneshot 90% of every dinosaur species? Either you are oneshot or die from the bleeding? Where's the fun in that?

[spring stirrup]

In my opinion this is simply not proportionate

[golden coral]

What? What oneshots 90% of every species, you talking about deino?

[orchid merlin]

Herreras can’t one shot things bigger than dilo what?

And the bleed isn’t strong enough to kill tenos or carnos in one jump

[golden coral]

Barely even dilo, from what I know. And I think that's only on headshot (not sure if raw damage even, or if it's bleed that does it)

[spring stirrup]

.

[orchid merlin]

Yea and specific circumstances have to be met.

[orchid merlin]

Mind elaborating on why?