balance-feedback-discussion

[thin mantle]

either that or accept the casualty gaurantee and throw numbers at it

[hidden kettle]

nah a good raptor pack of 3-4 or a cera pack (can be even easier due to bacteriea ) can easily kill a stego if done right espacially at these times with that big penalties you get by running low/out of stam.
just have to be lucky i guess that stego has no rubberbanding 20feet range connection ping 😄

[torn mango]

How do people keep 100% carno alive? this thing is like a slow moving tank that just burns the fuel, and whatever I can find to eat doesn't fill food bar at all.Is that like it? you reached full growth, congrats now do it again...

[austere ingot]

@vagrant magnet I agree with you. But for a majority of it it seems that the main tactic against Rex will be to avoid it. It’s bites will likely crush everything that dares challenge it and the only way to hold your own will be to fight it in the water as a deino or be a large group of larger herbivores likes stego or trike. Trikes scare me in theory because of being a build of a stego essentially with the mindset of a pachy player.

[livid crater]

@fleet silo I like how you basically asked for the same thing I did with regard to deino in the balance feedback channel, and mine got way more upvotes but yours got way more downvotes lol

[livid crater]

beginning to think the stamina feedback is falling on deaf ears, doesn't seem like the devs are interested in fixing it

[hazy echo]

I think one amazing fix to balance stam issues, would to give a bonus to stam recovery for all 3 nutrients then a massive bonus to it at 100% growth (emphasizing being in better physical condition / peak performance for getting all your nutrients for your diet)

Then it's more noticeable when nutrient drops off, and encourages gathering and keeping of all nutrients at 100% growth

[vital basalt]

Nerfing PT because it could 'slowly' peck carno to death is a silly reason to make a it terrible

if you wanted to fix PT you could have by actually making flight interesting/slighty difficult to do instead of it just being gliding

[dusky surge]

ptera is meant to be a glider, and the addition of thermal drafts will basically allow ptera to remain indefinitely airborne

[vital basalt]

which theoretically goes back to the problem of them pecking dinos to death by that logic

which I rarely ever see cause if a PT tried to peck a larger dino to death they'd eventually crash or get caught because they do no damage

[dusky surge]

i've seen them kill stegos

[vital basalt]

then that's a bad stego

[dusky surge]

stego could've been the most skilled stego ever

it wouldn't really matter because it couldn't do anything

no upwards attacks + good ptera with nothing better to do is basically death

[vital basalt]

I mean if that's the case then you have to find a solution that isn't just 'make PT feel bad to play so nobody plays it'

[thin mantle]

Tbf it wouldn’t detract from pteras playability or fun whatsoever to just…not allow it to damage creatures of certain size thresholds

[vital basalt]

I mean if you make a change specifically for PT yeah

issue could arise if affects multiple creatures and suddenly Troodons can't damage anyone lel

[dusky surge]

specifically for PT, yes

[wraith relic]

Maybe they should just add a way for stuff to attack upward there for knock ptera to the ground and then everything is fixed

[hollow canyon]

you should generally just be able to attack in every direction with every dinosaur

[grizzled plover]

just jump and have it collide into you

[slim dragon]

Not everyone plays omni or troodon here

[hidden kettle]

well it is very annoying if you play a non jumpable tbh 😄

Did they changes ceras weight btw ?
i had in mind it was 1.5 tons just 300kg lighter than carno (1.8tons) .. cause i looked at it like why is it 1.3T now ?! 😄
just wanna know maybe i just got wrong numbers on my mind there ._.

[dusky surge]

its always been 1.3 tons since it was released in EVRIMA

[hidden kettle]

oh wow thanks for that dunno why i had 1.5 in ma head... thats crazy it can easy get rid of carnos if done right with way less weight as i thought it had <.<

[copper anchor]

is it me or cera stam regen is just a bit to low, i get that it should be low, but i fell like i am sitting to regen stam more than i am actually playing the game.

[hidden kettle]

nah im fine with that tbh.
isnt meant to be the sprinter anyways id say. but i mostly just trott around and use stam pretty rare tbh
edit: stam regen in gerneral is a slow thing atm
and cera got a pretty big stam pool so it should take a while imo

[slim dragon]

@onyx garden 1. Ptera's feet aren't for grabbing, and ptera already has a peck that deals monstrous damage for its size. A grab ability wouldn't make it more lethal, just better for trolling and preventing other players from playing the game without killing them.
2. Where tf did you see that owls kill prey by dropping them off heights ? They don't do that

[hollow canyon]

Eagles do that - one issue though, a Pteranodon is NOT an eagle

[onyx garden]

Lol I witnessed an owl do that in real life and just assume that's the norm

Idk I was more relating it to stuff in jurassic world, when a ptera picked up a person

[onyx garden]

Also that peck is not even powerful as an adult vs adult lol.

[coarse blaze]

JP is far more into "make this thing scary by any means" so they don't really care too much about if it can or not.

PT feet look weirdly like people feet, even if it did have raptor-esc feet it's size I don't think would allow it to pick up anything.

[hidden kettle]

some eagles does apparently :`P
well with a chance to pick up something like a quater of its weight (wich would be not that much) it could get smaller dinos to its diet by gabbing puppys to drop them (like some birds nowadays do with turtles) .. that could really affect the ecosystem imo 😄
Edit :just sayin there could be an option. Didnt said it should be 😄

[dusky surge]

@distant prairie do you know how troodon's venom actually works

also teno has 1600HP, not 2000

[golden coral]

@distant prairie Neither of those are correct. Teno has 1600 health. A pounce does, apparently, 25 damage the first and second pounce venom stages, then 50 while getting to the third stage, and then 75 for every pounce in the third stage. I could be wrong on the numbers a little, but a pounce at third stage of venom does quite the decent damage. And since you don't hang on for very long, if at all, you have stamina to use.

[dusky surge]

Troodon has one of the best damage outputs for its size of any creature

[golden coral]

To be fair, it's not like the game tells us much of this.

[wise obsidian]

@distant prairie When did teno have 2000 hp? Lol

[distant prairie]

Says so in wiki

So it's 22 pounces in stage 3 to kill

That's still insane

[neon willow]

Teno currently has 1600 HP -- the in game weight is equivalent to health

But regardless... Keep in mind that troodon which weighs 40 kg has no real business trying to hunt a teno solo. You'd probably need a full pack... And at 10 troodons, that means everyone needs to contribute a total of... 2.2 pounces. Which is completely doable

[golden coral]

For a pack of 10 troodons, I don't think so...

[distant prairie]

10 full grown Troodons... lol.

[golden coral]

That sounds somewhat too easy honestly

Also, fanmade wikia is... not the most reliable

[dusky surge]

Fanmade wiki is outright wrong most of the time

[golden coral]

Just so you know for future reference, you're probably better off asking someone in here for info and stats

[golden coral]

60 kg, I believe? Didn't it get upsized a tiny bit?

[distant torrent]

did teno even weigh 2000 at some point. where did that number come from lol

[distant prairie]

Outside of YouTube or the first weekend when have you ever seen 10 full grown Troodons. It's possible on paper but nobody eats 20 pounces.

Balancing based on a maxed out group... literally every carnivore can group but you don't see raptors balanced off a maxed out pack or 8 (I think it's 8)

5 is a much more fair number since it's half full

[golden coral]

Balancing based on 1v1, and 1v1 a troodon should never go for an adult teno.

[golden coral]

And they are also stupidly OP

But they should be balanced for that, or rather, you balance for 1v1. And 1v1, an omni should only be hunting things it can pin, more or less.

You don't need to be able to hunt a teno or carno as solo omni, and you don't need to do that as troodon either. Viability does not equate to being able to punch up on your own when you're meant to have a pack for that.

[distant prairie]

Nobody is asking for solo vs anything

Your applying a hypothetical that for one never happens and two is ridiculous. You need 10% of the server to all be adult troodon AND be in the same place.

Nothing else is balanced off that high of a number of group members

[golden coral]

I didn't say that, I am talking in general. And I am applying how troodon, and omni for that matter, should work

Most other things also don't punch up to the levels those two do

[distant prairie]

Raptor should be viable at 4... doesn't take 8 full grown adults. And Troodon should be a 5

[golden coral]

They are viable

[distant prairie]

You still have to fight and coordinate

[golden coral]

Viable doesn't mean hunt whatever you want

[distant prairie]

Okay then what are troodons allowed to hunt?

[golden coral]

Solo? Juvies/beipi sized. In pairs, dryos and larger juvies. And so on, the more troodons, the larger the prey potential

[distant prairie]

Your sandbagging

[golden coral]

Just like how it'd be 2 omnis for a pachy, 3-4 for a teno/carno, 7-8 for a stego

[distant prairie]

We both know I mean adult dinos on their diet

[golden coral]

The more pack members, the larger the punch up potential

But you don't have to hunt adults

Deino can hunt stegos up to 4-4.5 T, but not fully grown stegos

[distant prairie]

There's no punch up potential then. They can troll juvies... end of story

[golden coral]

But if you specifically need adults, then solo troodon hunts beipi and dryo, pairs and trios/quartets can go for pachy, and then you have a bit of a gap until you get 6-7 troodons for a teno or carno

It'd probably be better with a more fleshed out roster

But you can't only go by adults, since a lot of larger critters will have quite the sizeable juvies and subs

[distant prairie]

Troodons should be able to kill their diet at stage 3 in 15 pounces. That gives plenty of counterplay and allows for troodons to get kicked out of sanctuary zones and stop trolling.

There's cliffs, steep hills, trees, and just plain running till the poison progression resets

Not to mention one shotting... 15 afk turns into 20-30 in game scenario

There's functionally no such thing as a full pack of adult Troodons. Just like it's functionally impossible for 6 Troodons to kill am adult AI teno without getting it stuck. Nobody has ever seen it happen but we keep hearing how it's possible.

[golden coral]

Troodons don't get "kicked out" of sanctuaries? They can stay there forever, and hunt all the juvies (if there are any).

Or did you mean they should be kicked out?

[golden coral]

To be fair, I think AI teno has unlimited stamina or so

At least they seem to be able to run for very long

[odd pebble]

Troodons are more viable than they ever have been since now its pounce straight up cancels attacks mid animation (when timed right) and locks playables out of using their directional attacks as long as 1 troodon is mounted on its prey

TLDR ; every juvi that cant outrun a troodon is pretty much free food

[distant prairie]

What you are talking about steps sounds like a bug rather than a feature.

No Troodons don't get kicked out now. Packs of Troodons can take those 5 adult troodons you think are too few to go after larger prey and routinely slaughter all the fresh spawns.

They should be buffed to give them a fighting chance. Not great but at least viable to leave the sanctuary zones and do something other that kill defenseless freshspawns

[golden coral]

Yep, what Steps is talking about are bugs

Troodon is more viable than you think, especially at night vs things with very bad NV

I mean, we could up the power, and limit the numbers in the pack instead

That would be acceptable I think

But then you'd need a good way to prevent overpacking

[distant prairie]

Limit pack to 8 or 6... but I want to do something other than trill the developers bad decision to create sanctuary zones.

[odd pebble]

Yes it is a bug. But considering the amount of time the devs take to fix bugs, it is a very valid playstyle

[golden coral]

Omni and troodon both have those bugs

Can render a stego incapable of doing anything but biting

For all the good that does xD

[dusky surge]

@white crest you know you don't need to press tab a bunch of times, you can press shift + enter to make paragraphs

[white crest]

my apologies, its currently 3:31 for me 🤣 💀

[dusky surge]

all good

just wanted to help you make it more readable :P

[vital basalt]

Problem with sanctuaries as a troodon is it feels like there's never anyone there

probably because of playercounts/hotspots

[white crest]

I'll clean it up another time, my brain hurts right now 😂

[strong sphinx]

STAMINA

[dusky surge]

had another carno-based experience

got i just hate playing against it

antithesis of fun

getting off a single charge = essentially instawin.

feels like the new deino tbh

[shadow vortex]

Wdym new deino? It always was like that so far I remember xD

[dusky surge]

nah, the new accel combined with everything else makes it just feel like something without counterplay

[shadow vortex]

I know, I'm talking about deino in whole my message lol

Oh welp, I just didn't get you right

My bad x)

[distant torrent]

I played it a bit ago with some people and yea lmfao it’s so busted. I’m probably the worst carno player you’d ever see but even I could easily get rams on people and we’d still go uncontested even with friendly fire

point and click

ceras stood basically no chance. you’re not running from a carno, and you’re not dodging their rams. you’re certainly not going to be facetanking them either

poor little tenos didn’t stand a chance either

not even in the jungle

[dusky surge]

imagine being able to survive 350 damage + knockdowns on one of the easiest attacks to hit in the game

[distant torrent]

it honestly takes more skill to be good with hypsi than it does to be good with carno

it’s so sad

[dusky surge]

legit lol

here's how carnotaurus matchups work, in the comedic form of code

public void carno() {
if (preyweight < 1800) {
charge();
if (preyweight > 1000) {
charge();
}
else
bite();
}
else
flee();
}

that's it, that's how you play it

the only thing i missed out on was the cooldown

[golden coral]

I need one of those for deino

[distant torrent]

I need one for the current omni

[hidden kettle]

it is indeed
carno should gain ram damange over distance.. or at least the knockdown <.<
Hypsi tbh if you can survive with that tiny onetap .. respect 😄

[tranquil nebula]

the pt jump shouldnt kill stamina . i get there is updates coming to pt but if the jump isnt fixed in it people are still going to say unbalanced. trying to jump around on a rock and messed up a few times.. oopsie all that sitting up in smoke.

[rigid tulip]

And without said charge its absolutely garbage and cant kill you at all lol

As evidenced by the fact that carnos cant kill a stego or in fact anything larger than itself whatsoever. Its sad design. Worst of every possible world.

[rigid tulip]

Omni is exclusively good against solo teno, carno, stego and it is waaay too good in that. But as soon as any group fight happens, especially with a cera involved its just over. Its very lame imo

[dusky surge]

It can still kill smalls, which is what it should be doing. Carno should not be punching up at all, and it's not at all a bad thing that it can't fight a stego when it's so well designed for punching down

[knotty harbor]

Agreed

[keen plover]

Why is it always nerf Carno without giving it alternatives. Why can't it be good playable solo 😭

like rn it's busted

[dusky surge]

I want them to buff carno's charge stam and bite force

but nerf carno's charge damage and knockdown range

[knotty harbor]

By range do you mean weight or literally range?

[dusky surge]

weight

[knotty harbor]

I actually agree with that what you thinking?

[dusky surge]

i think carno should only knock down creatures half its weight

which is around 900kg for a fg carno

meaning it can still knock down animals as heavy as dilo

[knotty harbor]

Seems fine to me if they did that

Also @dusky surge you know how I was thinking Alberto might have trample from its concept art? I've been reading alot about Alberto and there is a theory it could kick with its long legs to try to pin down small prey then finish them with a bite

[dusky surge]

alberto will probably have trample irregardless of its concept art, becaues it's being added as a universal mechanic

[knotty harbor]

True enough but I think it's alt attack might be a kick or it's special niche ability might be a leg pin with a neck break or something

[dusky surge]

i'll be honest i think giving alberto a kick would look absurd

[knotty harbor]

Depending on the animation probably lol

[dusky surge]

i don't think you can make an approximately 3 ton predator kicking look good

that's some BoB or PoT type stuff

[knotty harbor]

I think if it's a special animation where as your running you step on a smaller animal then do like a quick stop pinning it down then bite it it might look fine

[rigid tulip]

I agree its not bad that it cant fight a stego but its like literally not even possible

[rigid tulip]

I agree with you that we need to give alternatives. But Carno solo is already better than teno, pachy, omni solo. Its not like it was in spiro, at all.

[dusky surge]

it is possible, but very, very difficult, as it should be

[rigid tulip]

all a stego has to do is go into a corner and it is genuinely impossible tho. Not saying nerf stego or buff carno, but its just extremely inflexible. maybe not the best example

i think a better example would be teno vs carno without charge

[dusky surge]

teno should have the upper hand against carno, charge has made it far too simple

[rigid tulip]

carno is just so inflexible and stupid

i agree, teno should honestly destroy the entire roster rn save stego deino

[dusky surge]

i agree there

the skill ceiling on carno is far too low

[rigid tulip]

I think thats what I am trying to get across, yes

[dusky surge]

it's very stagnent, little room for unique fighting styles

[rigid tulip]

i also think the skill floor on teno is too high tho

[dusky surge]

i think it's fine if teno is hard, if it's rewarding that skill

but it isn't. The bare minimum skill required to even be close to viable far exceeds most the roster on teno

[coarse blaze]

Personally @lone leaf I don't think troodons need to be scavengers, they're very successful in hunting juvies, plenty of people do play troodon and it's not hard to learn how to play the little pack creatures. If you find a fairly decent group who understand how to hunt you can take down plenty impressive prey.

The lag issue isn't a problem relating to the playable itself and therefore I don't think can be addressed within this context.

[odd pebble]

tell me about it. I was playing cera today and a carno tried to hunt me. He couldnt land a single charge out of the 4-5 times he charged, only got me by the alt bites whenever i went in for a charge bite. I did land 2 or 3 charge bites along with 2 vomits and he still killed me

carno is literally hold shift, aim mouse, rmb or lmb and win dino

[distant prairie]

The problem with Troodon being only successful at hunting juvies is it limits where Troodons live to places the can find fresh spawns...

Tonight as a solo Troodon I shut down the Sanctuary (NA 1) near NE lake for 3 hours. I killed 3 raptors, 4 carnos, a galli, stego, 2 pachys, and 4 ceratos.

You don't want this and neither do I. I want to be able to leave, group up with 2-4 other Troodons and hunt the swamps, Riverland, etc.

Make 5 skilled Troodons enough to take down sub-adults and have the bees kill us at full grown.

[coarse blaze]

Troodons aren't only successful at killing juvies and can very well hunt plenty of FG dinosaurs.

[dusky surge]

5 skilled troodons SHRED sub-adults

[coarse blaze]

If you choose to hunt babies that's something you chose to do

[dusky surge]

Even 2 skilled troodons can absolutely murk a sub

[coarse blaze]

The bees play off a weight thing right? Not a growth stage thing?

[dusky surge]

It's... something lol

[coarse blaze]

If so they really need to adjust it per species because the troodon thing is an issue in sanctuaries

[dusky surge]

Because hypsi isn't allowed in, but troodon is

[coarse blaze]

What?

How does that work at all

[dusky surge]

Hypsi gets beed

Ptera is also allowed in

Dryo isn't

[coarse blaze]

I did not get beed as dryo

[dusky surge]

Yet a 200-something pachy can

[coarse blaze]

but I maybe just got lucky

Sanctuaries need a bit more looked at

Getting stuck in the weird little tree things too is an issue but a far less important one

[cosmic pelican]

With the recent buff of pounce disabling alt attacks troodon became VERY strong, since dismounting is almost 100% safe.
Just a few troodons can deal massive amounts of damage if played right. Me and a friend killed a fully grown cera yesterday as 2 troodons. Which shows how strong this little rat can be in the right hands.

Imo troodon doesnt need a buff, it absolutely shreds juveniles, and a pack can pretty much kill anything.

[tall bronze]

The whole what can and cannot enter sanctuaries thing is, pardon my French, silly and needs to be looked at

It needs to be based purely on size.....ya know.....like originally described instead of being changed last minute

Consistency 👉🪟

[keen plover]

I got kicked out when I ticked over 300kg

[dusky surge]

as it should be

[hasty coyote]

iirc hypsi is a special exception according to punch. Mainly because it would just run around in there and spit the juvies, plus it spawns full grown so it doesnt need the protection. While I think the reasoning is kinda bad, since we allow troodon to go in which is faster and actually kills juvies, thats apparently why,

[tall bronze]

It's ridiculous reasoning. It's going off the assumption that spit is 1. actually useful and 2. able to consistently hit targets that aren't sitting still.

Plus it being fully grown means nothing since small stuff, adult or not, still gain protection from larger animals within sanctuaries. They can't live there, sure, but that's the point. A temporary safe haven until you have to leave either because you grow too big or need actual food.

It also just creates really weird inconsistencies. Good luck if you're a new player....

"Oh, a sanctuary! My creature is very small and can fit, so I should use them for protection!" (they did not know their species was a magical exception for literally no reason)

It's just so weird their excuse

It makes me wonder if it's just a case of dev-player disconnect and they actually think Hypsi is a threat in any meaningful way

[grizzled anchor]

@lament niche I kinda agree with you but I dont think that humans are close to being released at all. The roster is currently pretty small and there's alot of other issues the devs need to fix. Not balancing now would hurt the game more than having to rebalance everything when the other factions come out.

• the balancing isnt as easy and with all the new changes they're doing balancing also needs to be redone. The new stam system also included a complete rebalance (which went horrible lol) and it still isnt close to every dino being fun. Also changing the "Meta" if u can call it like that keeps the game interesting for pvp driven players.

[lament niche]

I get where you're coming from (and you're totally right that humans seem ages off despite the game already being in development for what feels like half my life at this point), but I would much prefer they got humans in before adding any more dinos. So much is going to have to change to accommodate them - the more they add in before then, the more time and effort they will have to put in after the fact to make it work. That or they delay them even longer.

The whole feel of the game will change - I think and hope it will be for the better, but it won't be the same granular dino survival sim. They're balancing for a game they don't intend to end up with at release.

[grizzled anchor]

The thing is theres problem currently that cannot wait for example the immense rubberbanding, starvation drain or stam regen getting balanced, multiple holes in the map etc. balancing isnt the biggest problem rn (besides carno acceleration... guess devs are carno mains)

[lament niche]

Oh I agree with you there lol. The latest balancing, at least on the stamina and nightvision, was a bad move that only highlights the general lack of stuff to do in the current game. I'm not saying they should leave the dinos in the state they're in now - make them generally fun (I was mostly fine with them pre-latest update) now with the promise that they'll be better later.

[grizzled anchor]

I think for the worse because it currently is played and loved as a dino survival sim, humans will turn the game around completely. And of course they have to balance the game now because they have a huge potion playing the current development build. I get your point tho. Overall the devs need to be cautious about their steps, as you can see currently they're losing alot of players even veterans who played for years because they're making dumb decisions and ignore the community.

[grizzled anchor]

I get what they try to achieve tho and the nightvision is actually a thing I like whenever dilo comes out it favors specific hunters even tho they made it a bit extreme. Playing around with stam regen numbers and stuff could all be done together with the community and that way they would achieve the state of every dino being fun for their players, thats just not what they do so I think your dream of them balancing like it should will always be a dream :/

[distant prairie]

2 Troodons literally don't have enough pounces available to kill a full grown cera so you're lying.

[grizzled anchor]

What? Ive killed 2 adult ceras not sure if full grown the last 2 days solo so dont get your point, you either dont understand the venom or I was really lucky? One cera was hurt he even had a broken leg ok but the other one was completely fine not even scars and I took maybe 6 pounces and a couple of bites and he was down. Besides the point that troodon is usually a pack hunter and 2 troodons isnt really what I'd call a pack 😄

[cosmic pelican]

stam regenerating and tracking exists, thats all I have to say

it wasnt a 5minute fight, it took around 30mins for the 2of us to kill him

[grizzled anchor]

tracking is awful tho :/ I hope they improve it and make it different for the different dinos (of course a cera wont be good at seeing footprints but it has excellent smell so might smell bleeding dinos closeby or something)

[cosmic pelican]

iirc tracking got massively buffed this update, so its actually useful now

of course you can still lose your prey, but thats how it should be

[grizzled anchor]

iirc?

[cosmic pelican]

if i remember correctly

[grizzled anchor]

aaah sry english isnt my native language ^^ I havent tried it out that much since I usually die to rubberbanding in the fights so no need for tracking but today Ive experienced tracking by blood can still be tough

[cosmic pelican]

from my experience it definetly feels better

[cosmic pelican]

no worries, english isnt my first language either 😄

[dusky surge]

this is a revelation to me

[distant prairie]

6 pounces and a couple of bites to kill a full grown healthy Cera? Rofl. No that's not true. You can't kill an AI teno with that. That's exactly the BS I'm talking about.

People find stuff half dead and claim they killed it.

You know how we know it's a lie?

Nobody has ever claimed to be the adult killed by Troodons.

[grizzled anchor]

It was like that lol and never said full grown I said adult xd maybe he was hurt and it wasnt showing idk he had no scars and nothing

but also oneshot cera and carno juvis today idk what was going on

[cosmic pelican]

damage caused by fall dmg, starvation and dehydration dont show scars. so maybe they just healed a leg fracture or were starving

[distant prairie]

It's like 30 pounces to kill a full grown cera or carno. Nobody is doing that because the pack wouldn't survive that many attempts.

[grizzled anchor]

that could be it idk I was kinda surprised myself

[cosmic pelican]

if they are bad, probably, but dismounting is almost 100%safe now thanks to pounce disabling alt attacks. (also its only around 20pounces, stage 3 pounces do 75dmg)

[distant prairie]

That's only like 1500hp... is that the right number?

Even 20 and this guy earlier is like I killed 2 with just me and a friend.

Sure if it's afk... it could run, it could post up on a tall tree, it could get 2 good bites out of 20, mud pit, cliff, etc.

People are catching things when they are frustrated and dying anyway and taking the last 20% hp away thinking it was all them.

[golden coral]

I mean, putting out that much damage with that "few" pounces, for a tap pouncing critter that has 20 pounces in one stamina bar isn't bad by any means.

A single troodon, using one full stamina bar for pounces, has quite the potential damage output for its size and ability

[distant prairie]

You need to learn that potential and usable or different. I could drive my truck with my feet. But it wouldn't work in a real practical sense.

[golden coral]

Well, learning the game is expected? Not quite sure what you're trying to say there. Of course you need to know how to play?

[distant prairie]

No you don't understand what is being said.

[golden coral]

But it's not very complicated, pounce is easy as can be, the biggest issue would be that the game doesn't tell you how venom works or if you have to tap pounce or hold on (for troodon and omni respectively)

Well, you made a very strange comparison

[distant prairie]

You're talking about potential damage. We are talking about practical usable damage.

A soldier with 30 bullets potentially could kill 30 enemy soldiers. But it's a ridiculous idea in a battle to expect anything remotely close to that result.

[golden coral]

Is it, really? Or is it a matter of knowing what you're doing?

But even so, my point was that troodon do have quite the power, even if you only get to use half of that, it's still very good

[distant prairie]

Exactly my point you can't tell the difference

[golden coral]

No, I am questioning if there is a guaranteed difference

Or if your lack of ability is what causes the difference

[distant prairie]

Yes there's a difference between what is possible and what is probable

[golden coral]

If you go by the assumption that you will miss 90% of your shots, then yeah, sure. But why would we go with that assumption, rather than you being good and not missing

Because that would change how to balance things

It might not be very probable, but still doable

I don't think we should balance for "bad" plays as it were

[distant prairie]

Again that's the point. Your position is that no matter how improbable as long as it's possible... its fine

[golden coral]

We balance for optimal play, because A, it's something you can learn and get to, and B, otherwise we get the funny situations where someone has really mastered soomething and then goes and does stuff they "shouldnt"

Like pteras pecking stegos to death and other funny stuff

[golden coral]

Yes, because it's quite probable, there isn't really any so improbable thing, so far, that players can't figure it out and do it

As ptera and other critters have demonstrated by players that do set their minds to it

I simply disagree that troodon is either A, weak, or B, so difficult to play that it's "very improbable" to do things

[grizzled anchor]

As long as you know the venom mechanic troodon is pretty strong and not hard to play (if we exclude current rubberbanding ofc)

[distant prairie]

How many times have you been killed as an adult by Troodons Erik?

[grizzled anchor]

Thats not a good question because theres not alot of troodons out there...

[distant prairie]

No it's a great question because everyone's answer is never

[grizzled anchor]

Not true Ive killed many adults as a troodon before. The thing is that troodon is a heavy pack hunter soloing is only possible for fighting juvis. And as someone who plays troodon often I can tell you if u get 2 other troodons in your group you're very lucky.

[distant prairie]

These guys said they do it all the time...

Let's hear from a victim

[grizzled anchor]

I dont know how troodons should kill alot of adults if theres like 5 troodons per server lol

[distant prairie]

Everyone says they do it but when I ask who's ever been killed its crickets

[grizzled anchor]

lets say you need 20 pounces to kill something with lets say 6 troodons thats not much at all

[grizzled anchor]

Well maybe because you almost never even meet troodons? Hard to get killed by something you never see

[distant prairie]

Okay when did it happen to you

Excuses.. you just said you do it all the time

[grizzled anchor]

As I said I mainly play troodon and omni so ofc I almost never get killed by troodons lol

[distant prairie]

Are you the only good troodon?

[golden coral]

I've never been attacked by them in the first place. I've heard them around, I've been solo troodon and hunted juvies, but that's about it (I also don't like to run in larger numbers than 2-3, it gets so chaotic, so pack hunters or herding critters aren't really my thing in the first place). But none of that is relevant to the potential and ability of troodon, or any other playable.

[grizzled anchor]

Never said all the time but alright 😂 as I said its heavily relying on packs to hunt but rn no one plays troodon or at least not many people so of course theres not many troodons killing stuff.

[distant torrent]

I’ve actually almost died pretty fast to full troodon pack as an adult omni. the only reason why I survived was because it was the old nv and I had a camo skin and ran into the dense jungle to abuse their low camera. they’re scary when they know what they’re doing

[golden coral]

It's like saying "how often do you die to stego as deino." I never have, unless I chose to end my life, because I can avoid stegos and I do. Yet that doesn't relate to how well deinos can kill stegos, or vice versa.

[grizzled anchor]

Go on a free admin server with a group and let 4-5 troodons fight something which shouldnt be a stego and you'll see its not only possible but a pretty fun fight at least for the troodon 😄

[golden coral]

You're trying to argue "does this happen" while I look at what can happen, because what can, relates to what people actually and and will do, given they are good enough.

[distant prairie]

Your both talking hypothetical. Erik talked a big game about what they can do...

Never seen it never done it.

Nobody cam say they were taken down by Troodon but they are dropping bodies all the time huh..

Yes Erik

Does it happen IS the point

[golden coral]

I am telling you the sheer stats, and that's what matters.

[distant prairie]

That's the whole point

[golden coral]

If it happens or not is irrelevant to what is doable.

[distant prairie]

Stats don't matter if it's not actually possible in game

[golden coral]

You're stuck on hypotheticals of "what do players do", I talk about what players can do

[grizzled anchor]

Bro where are you taking that stuff? No one said they kill all the time. I even said its tough currently because theres so few troodons. Do you even read what Im saying?

[golden coral]

But it is possible, based on the stats

That's the entire point

You can't say it's not possible because it hasnt, or doesn't happen because people choose to play differently

[grizzled anchor]

It is also possible ingame if you manage to get a group.

[golden coral]

You can have a troodon horde that chooses to only scavenge

[distant prairie]

Scroll up dinosaur. They were claiming full grown cera kills with 2 troodons

[golden coral]

Doesn't change their potential kill ability just because they never actually attack stuff

[golden coral]

Yes, because what they can do is how you balance. Just because you've never seen it done doesn't change that it can be done. It is irrelevant if it happens, since we balance based on what can be done. You can't balance based on "will someone fly", when you give ptera flying. You balance based on "if this thing flies like so, what can it do and not do".

[grizzled anchor]

I claimed 2 adult (not fg) cera kills solo so yeah... but they mightve been hurt or something.
2 well playing troodons can take down a cera, esepcially cera isnt that hard to fight as troodon since they're slow as hell so they wont escape you that quick.
Do you actually have experience as troodon?

[golden coral]

Looking at the sheer damage potential, plus other stats, you can kill an adult cera (at least without body buff) as 2-3 troodon. Will it take time, yes. Is it very risky and likely to end in your deaths, yes. But can it be done, yes, yes it can.

[grizzled anchor]

troodon is a glass cannon every fight is likely to end in your deaths xd

[golden coral]

You have to take into account what can be done, otherwise we get stuff like pteras pecking carnos and stegos to death

Because while it takes a lot of practice, and no mistakes, you can do it if you're good enough, and there's little the target can do aside from log or otherwise hide. Because good pteras can do it even in a forest. (mind you, this was on spiro with old stamina so, but point still stands)

It's very rare, but it does happen, and when it does, it's.... well, an interesting situation at least

[grizzled anchor]

I wouldn't even call it that risky if we take fps drops and rubberbanding out. You're oneshot but hard to hit if you move correctly

[golden coral]

Like, the entire point is that stats and mechanics determine what can and can not be done in the game. Players decide if they will do it or not (assuming they are good enough to do it of course)

[frail bobcat]

What is da topic?

[grizzled anchor]

cera (without chuffing buff) is one of my favourite matchups as troodon

[golden coral]

Scroll up a bit, the difference between what players can do, what they are likely/probable to do, and so on

[frail bobcat]

Aha

[golden coral]

@foggy elm That'll only make the carno issue even worse

[foggy elm]

how

[grizzled anchor]

how so? That way carno will keep its own population down

[golden coral]

Self feeding

Cannibalism doesn't actually keep the population down

[foggy elm]

yes it does

[golden coral]

It only allows them to make bigger groups, and feed on their fallen

[foggy elm]

it controls the deino population

[golden coral]

So it makes the problem even worse, we've seen this on spiro before

[golden coral]

No, no it doesn't.

[grizzled anchor]

I dont even get how they put carno in this stage lol it has no acceleration time and can easily facetank a cera to death xd

[golden coral]

Look at spiro, deinos were cannibals the whole time

We had stupid numbers of them around anyway

[foggy elm]

many sub deinos have died to me. it does help keep the population down a little

[distant torrent]

the reason why carno megapacks were so common when carno was a canni was because one carno could sustain them lol making carno a canni is the worst possible way to control its population when people can just easily respawn and regrow

[golden coral]

Same with carnos, when they lost cannibalism, they could feed less

[golden coral]

Yes and no, A, they come back and regrow, B, now others can feed on that and you feed more than you lose

One adult deino feeds three adults

That's the issue, you add more food to the entire group than you remove

[foggy elm]

ok. so if carno cannibalism doesnt work. make cera the brawling bully it was supposed to be. its insane that the brawling bully gets destroyed by the small game ambusher

[golden coral]

You can gang up on a single deino as a pair, kill it, feed yourselves, a third adult, and the guy who died to regrow him

[grizzled anchor]

good point

Instead of making carno a canni again how about just nerf it 😂

[foggy elm]

https://tenor.com/view/steve-carell-office-exactly-bingo-gif-13025505

[distant torrent]

carno’s ram needs a heavy nerf

[grizzled anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-perfectlybalanced-gif-18301221

[golden coral]

To be fair, I don't know what carno is meant to be anymore. And I think cera is not really meant to brawl, just... corpse bully and all that. And a cera with a body buff can put up quite the fight, especially if you get vomit. It's just that carno instant accel + the very high damage/knockdown threshold is a big problem.

[grizzled anchor]

devs talking about carno

[golden coral]

Nerf the charge damage, nerf the knockdown threshold, there we go

[foggy elm]

no, just make it so ram cant be used in combat. if you land an ambush against cera. you should win against it. but if cera catches you in the open. then cera wins 60/40

[golden coral]

Much less of an instant nuke, much better ability to fight back, and puts the carno at more risk since it can't knockdown teno and cera, and also can't just spam it as much for damage

[foggy elm]

i tested it and. carno can FACETANK a cera with an adult teno body

[golden coral]

Eh, I'd say the other way around, a carno in the open is where its at the most dangerous

And ambush carno is... a strange niche, not a fan, I'd rather it be more tuned for smaller game and make the charge good for that rather than a same lane nuke

[grizzled anchor]

by that logic there is no need for an ambush he might aswell charge in with the cera knowing damn well whats coming lol. The instant acceleration is the biggest problem imo. I got killed as an omni from a carno charging me from 1.5m away lol

[golden coral]

Wait what? That doesn't sound accurate at all.

[foggy elm]

and cera should be a tough brawling scavenger. some people think that cera should ONLY be able to scavenge which is stupid, cera scavenges but it can put up a good fight aswell

[grizzled anchor]

for real? I thouht with the chuffing buff cera would be a pain to fight

[foggy elm]

i tested it, its riduculous

[cosmic pelican]

Just to clear some things up. The whole fight lasted around 30 minutes, which meant we had to track the cera for so long we didnt even know where we were after it dropped xd. In the end it either died to bleed, or it starved to death (thank Dondi for pounce cancelling eating🙏)

[foggy elm]

cera - brawling bully. carno - small game ambusher. who should win? obviously cera most of the time.

[golden coral]

Hm, are the bites still 150 and 175 respectively?

[cosmic pelican]

Even if it died to starvation its still an impressive feat

[foggy elm]

And carno has more stam, speed, AND damage, than cera this update. so carno IS just a better version on cera. thats it

[foggy elm]

cera 150 carno 175 yes

[golden coral]

Hmm

[grizzled anchor]

fair point but it had the chuffing buff if it was eating didnt it?

[golden coral]

Unfortunately I don't know how good the body buff from a teno is

[latent lotus]

i mean of the cerato is actually trading bites instead of using agility to move around the carno

[golden coral]

But it sounds off, especially since cera bites faster than carno

[golden coral]

Did you use normal bites or alt bites?

[latent lotus]

• vomit

[foggy elm]

normal

[cosmic pelican]

Iirc chuff buff doesnt apply while eating, but passive dmg resist does, we probably did 0dmg, but not letting it eat was cruical

[foggy elm]

cera cant do anything if it sees a carno right now. its slower, less stam, and weaker

[golden coral]

Right. I honestly don't know what happened then, unless teno body buff does very little. Because by all accounts, cera should win that, outputting dps faster than the carno and not being that much weaker overall

[distant prairie]

If you:

Have 10 expert Troodons in a pack
Are all in voice communication
Don't lose the target in the bushes
Don't have the target bush camp
Don't have the target camp a cliff
Don't get killed in pounce bug
Don't lag
Don't have the target camp a tree
Don't get interrupted by other predators
Never miss a pounce

Wow... you cracked the code! How did nobody see this? It's so simple.

[golden coral]

Trees don't help much vs troodon btw

Tap pounce means you can't really knock them off as reliably as omnis

[cosmic pelican]

Bushes arent as effective as they used to be either

[grizzled anchor]

pounce stopping eating is stupid as hell lol you can just kill stuff by letting it starve that way

[golden coral]

And you don't need VC, or "expert" troodons (not that it's that hard anyway)

Lag can't be accounted for, you can't balance based on bugs/lag, that... won't go well

As we can see with how powerful omni pounce is

[cosmic pelican]

Even if you manage to knock it down the animation for troodon is barely 2 seconds long, so its actually not a death sentence

[foggy elm]

what should cera vs carno be in your opinion? 50/50? 60/40?

[cosmic pelican]

I guess, but if it works ill take it lol

[golden coral]

It depends on the circumstances I'd say

[foggy elm]

middle of a field. no body

[golden coral]

In a fight in the open grounds with no body buff, carno should probably have the advantage, if not by much

[grizzled anchor]

facetanking from the start 80/20 for the cera overall fight I'd say it depends harshly on the environment since carno can be limited by it but could also have the advantage on open field for example.

[foggy elm]

in the open no body, 55/45?

[golden coral]

I don't really think a cera should be comfortable strolling out into the open with no body to claim or so

But carno should also consider it a bit of a bother, since it is not really "omni small" size after all

[foggy elm]

it is the brawling bully

[golden coral]

Bully, yes, brawler, not so much. I see it a bit more as defensive, more of a pain to deal with, than outright dangerous

You do have the vomit to make people regret going for you after all

[cosmic pelican]

The cerato doesnt need to outright kill the carno, the bleed and the potential vomit may indirectly cause its death considering carnos food requirements.

[golden coral]

I'd probably say 60%/40% carno advantage. Which in turn would shift around the moment there's a decent sized body to claim at least

[latent lotus]

let me tell how i think of this fight, carno as an ambusher should have a disadvantage against a cerato if it gets spotted. carno was meant to be an ambusher but it kinda plays like a brawler

[golden coral]

Carno should be a bit of a terror of the open plains, and cera should preferably want to go out in the open because there's something to get out there

[latent lotus]

so in a 1v1 cenario is like a 60/40 (cerato 60) and if an ambush is pulled out thats like a 80% carno win rate

[golden coral]

Well, I entirely disagree that carno was meant as an ambusher since it was always horribly designed for it, and I don't think it being an ambusher make sense or even work very well

[latent lotus]

exept for food?

[golden coral]

Or well, it works great now with new accel, so I guess maybe carno is a decent ambusher now

[golden coral]

Food would be the reason to go out there in the open?

You smell dead body, you go to steal it

[latent lotus]

it is a really good ambusher, take my word, but its also really good at just fighting which i guess its a nono, the way id do is make charge harder to land (so its only viable if u aint spotted) and give carno a lot of dps and low hp

[golden coral]

I was saying that a cera just going into the open, flat grounds that would be carno territory should probably be wary, but if there's food, you'd turn the situation to your advantage with the body down buff

[foggy elm]

cera should also be able to hunt things. hold q and walk over isnt a really fun expeirience. cerato is a scavenger that can hunt if it gets hungry

[golden coral]

Well, extreme speed accel make sense for that, makes it really good at ambushing

[latent lotus]

why dont u think id make sence or work well?

[golden coral]

I don't know, I don't entirely disagree, but cera isnt really meant to hunt from what I know, it is a scavenger, and thats kind of your main gameplay

Or so I've understood it as, at least

Then again, it was also said to be very hungry and I never really felt that

[latent lotus]

thats a biiig scav

[golden coral]

Compared to the roster, it's not that big xD

*entire roster

[latent lotus]

scav in cera means it eats rotten food and hunger drains fast, not that it is incapable of hunting

[latent lotus]

to the current one yeah

[foggy elm]

https://tenor.com/view/exactly-yes-precisely-absolutely-totally-gif-17449520

[foggy elm]

^

[golden coral]

Open plains, not many spots to just sit and hide in. Fast food drain (heard its better now but before), so little time to actually sit and wait. Longer windup time on charge + running before you can use it (before obviously) makes it so you can't attack at point blank. Compare and contrast with deino, who is an excellent ambush hunter on the other hand.

[latent lotus]

bro agreed so much it pinged it twice lol

[golden coral]

Does hunger really drain fast? Never felt that way to me honestly

[foggy elm]

hyenas are scavengers. does that mean that they are weak and dont hunt anything? no, hyenas are very strong and are very capable of hunting

[golden coral]

To be fair, I played more carno, and that hunger was rough, so maybe I was used to harsher drain

[foggy elm]

haha

[golden coral]

Isnt the whole "hyena scavenger" thing not very accurate? :p

[latent lotus]

no thats how carno is right now, i wanna know why u dont think it be good if it was more of an ambusher cause im pretty sure thats what they trying to do

[latent lotus]

so is cera scav am i right

[golden coral]

I did say current carno with this new accel is a good ambusher? I just said that it hasnt really been well designed for that (until now), and that I personally don't think it makes much sense

On top of the fact that both allo and alberto also seems to be doing that, so why not do something else for carno

[latent lotus]

thats a good point ngl

isnt allo more of a brawler?

[foggy elm]

well, whenever you have 10000 dinos in your roster you are gonna have some similarities. rex is also an ambusher

[golden coral]

Well, the concept shows it doing some kind of burst speed, and I think there were mentions of it ambushing at least, so

[golden coral]

I was hoping for endurance/persistence rex to be honest

But pursuit, endurance, and ambush, sure there's overlap and a large roster, but that only means we can and maybe should vary their hunting methods a bit

And pursuit carno fits with the "I am very fast and will run you down" carno style

Endurance alberto might be interesting, and allo fits with ambush because grapple. Get to you quickly and hold you so you can't get away, like deino lunge.

[foggy elm]

and ambusher fits cera pretty well with its powerfull legs used for bursts of speed. but right now in the game, carno IS an ambusher and cera IS a tanky brawler

[golden coral]

Anyway, a bit off topic. I think cera should be generally wary of decently larger carnis unless it has a body to contest for. And it should be able to hunt, but maybe not be very good at it. I do think the main fun concept of cera is the whole "Thanks for making me dinner, I'll eat it now" whenever someone else makes a kill.

Rather than doing most of the killing yourself

[latent lotus]

but rex is huge allo carno and alberta are similar size

ill brb

[golden coral]

Correct. I did say current carno is very good for ambushing, and cera is brawling. I just said I don't personally think it should neccesarily be like that?

Or that it has been like that before, rather

[foggy elm]

what would you make cera and carnos niches?

[golden coral]

But carno should be a bit more tuned to hunting smaller targets, ambusher or not

Hence changes to charge knockdown threshold and damage

[golden coral]

Carno would be tuned for pursuit. You rely on your speed to catch up to small things, you rely on charge (or well, I'd redesign it to a headbutt) to knock them down for a kill confirm. You limit the knockdown threshold to, lets say 900-1K in weight (so cera and teno can't be knocked down), and keep the "charge" as a CC tool, with bite as the damage dealer. This should also mean that carno can fight teno and cera, but it's more difficult, and you might want a friend for it.

Cera would be more tuned into corpse bully, I don't know exactly how good it is at hunting right now, but I'd tune the vomit from repeated vomit, to one time only, but with harsher punishment if needed. Something like a halfway malnutrition debuff that you get the first time you vomit and keep the no nutrient gain while vomit sick as well. The entire point here being, if you fight a cera and you vomit, you will very quickly find yourself in trouble due to the debuff you just got.

Turn vomit less into a "combat tool" and more into a "You might kill me, but you are truly in a bad shape now, no food, no water, and -25% in all your stats, oh and no nutrient regain, so have fun with that". A bit more of making cera an absolute pain to deal with, if not directly then by the long term effects. Which right now might not deter much, but when we do get more survival elements, that sort of thing might very well lead to your death down the line even if you won the battle.

[latent lotus]

whats a CC tool

[golden coral]

Crowd control

[grizzled anchor]

Crowd Control I think

[golden coral]

Knockdown, knockback, stagger, stun, and so on

Like how teno has tail slam for CC, kick for damage, claw for reach, and so on.

[latent lotus]

i dont like the idea of carno needing a friend to kill a cera ngl

[golden coral]

Not needing it, but it would make it easier and less risky

[grizzled anchor]

well see it this way the cera will never outrun the carno so of course it should be stronger standing its ground

[shadow vortex]

Lol I can't stand up in sitting animation as a teno while broadcasting. For some reason only quick stand up works

[coarse blaze]

Have 10 expert Troodons in a pack >> You don't need 10 "experts" it's a fairly simple pack creature to learn.

Are all in voice communication >> You have in-game calls, the whole strat is based on listening for a sound queue. Just decide ahead of time whose pouncing in-game chat.

Don't lose the target in the bushes >> Tracking was made easier recently so that shouldn't be an issue.

Don't have the target bush camp >> This doesn't really hinder troodon since pouncing can be anywhere on the prey's hitbox and if you can't see them they likely can't see you very well either in a bush.

Don't have the target camp a cliff >> People rarely camp around cliff edges, the map is mostly leveled.

Don't get killed in pounce bug >> Not the fault of the playable

Don't lag >> Not the fault of the playable

Don't have the target camp a tree >> This again doesn't hinder troodon much given their size

Don't get interrupted by other predators >> >> Not the fault of the playable

Never miss a pounce >> Not the fault of the playable

[latent lotus]

thats true, my view on carno VS cerato is that carno as an ambusher (its supposed to be at least) should kill a cera easily if it gets the ambush and cera should be able to stand its ground. so my view carno should have high dps and low hp

and please make charge harder to land

[shadow vortex]

@wraith kayak if by ‘fixing teno ai’ you mean that it tail slams you from time to time, then I’m going to disappoint you they didn’t fix it. Teno ai was tail slamming things even at the start of hordetest, though it bugs really often so they’re just being passive cans of food most of the time.

[wraith kayak]

You gotta be shittin me

[shadow vortex]

Nope

[golden coral]

Don't the AI break half of the time, neither running nor fighting. Or in some cases, runs from things it shouldn't, like a juvie carno or a dryo xD

[hidden kettle]

ye pretty annoying it should fight every carni up to weight of X imo.

[distant torrent]

just found out teno has enough stam to make it to practically any island it wants

I now yearn for island migrations even more. especially after finding a salt rock on one

but the only problem I see with it is I’m not sure many things can make it to the islands too. though I wonder if omni might be able to if it has the stam diet

[dusky surge]

they said they're doing it for teno, so

[knotty harbor]

Deino food

[wraith relic]

how the hell are they supposed to get there with how much stam swimming currently takes

[dusky surge]

doesn't take that much for teno

[distant torrent]

I did it today lol it can get to just about every island (though keep in mind you should be taking the shortest possible swim to the island. even if that means going to one island to get closer to another to be able to swim to it)

[distant torrent]

but my question is what can also go to the islands to follow the migration. troodons? omnis? deinos? though deino wouldn’t really have any rivalry on the island except for other deinos since I’d imagine stegos wouldn’t be able to get there lol..

[dusky surge]

nothing much

which i honestly don't know if its bad

[distant torrent]

I do like some action on teno so I hope something can get there. definitely not carno though because of the obvious

it’d be fun when you’re first exploring the islands but it’s going to suck when you’re stuck in the migration for a few hours if there’s not enough people to eat plants

[dusky surge]

i like the idea of quetz getting out there

[wraith relic]

Quetz should easily be able to travel across the island with no bother, but it probably shouldn’t have a downward peck so it has to do combat on land if it’s with land stuff

[distant torrent]

is quetz weight known?

[stark knoll]

IRL it's around 250-500kg? No idea what it'll be in game

[distant torrent]

I guess quetz could be going after some unlucky sub tenos if its gameplay isn’t ptera-styled where it can peck you repeatedly from above

but I really like the idea of the islands being apart of multiple migration zones you could choose from so you’re not forced to one place for food

so you could have a migration zone at delta to go to, and you could also have a migration zone at the largest island (and smaller islands around it). if you choose the islands, i guess your only major threat will be quetz. if you choose delta, your major threats could be deino, carno, and just about everything else, but you’d have choices

being forced to be on an island for hours on end until the migration finally changes just seems boring

even if teno gets downsized for island migrations, I’d still like that choice

[scarlet onyx]

wut lol

[dusky surge]

i dont see whats confusing there lol

[shadow vortex]

<@&933486433342222376> some sus person here

[latent lotus]

@foggy elm make cerato stand it’s ground against a carno instead of having more stamina, not to mention how stupid it is to give carno slow stamina, it’d the runnin dino

[crude scaffold]

we need a better stam system omnis live from stam n they dont have enough

or recover to slow

[hidden kettle]

well as long as cera plays as intended it will molsty stand its ground against a carno. If it got a body either by hunting or (as intended) by finding/robbing it, it will be buffed and is capable of dealing with a carno.
sure its frustration if a carno comes back to ram.. chills .. rams and so on.. but in that case you can just tank their rams/stam by eatin, since you get even less damage by doing so 😄
Edit:
i get your point on carnos stam but on the other hand its got some sense its running low stam since its a short term (really fast ) sprinter. its useing the 3 elements of winning a fight at once if played well 😄
and yea carno is very stong at this point but with the highest grow time on carnis atm it should be kind of a force.

[neat lantern]

I just hope they actually add drinkable water to the outlying islands before they try to force migrations out to them too...

[latent lotus]

about the carno stam, that’s a good point but i still think it should be a mid term really fast sprinter and it’s balanced out by the turn ratios

i have to disagree, if u can only rely on been around bodies, even if that’s intended, it’s still just unviable

i totally get why u think carno should be stronger because of the growth time and i do agree but it’s just kinda stupid to have carno being much more stronger and faster then cera, that really sucks for cera, i still think it should oppose somewhat of a threat

[hidden kettle]

tbh as mainly playin cera i totally get your point and in feeling with you ngl there.
Like its eatin BONES so why it got less Bitefore for example ye. And i know with cera being more or less the only real "fighter" in big class dinos (considering Carno as an ambusher and cera a real "fighter" due to its buffs to fight for bodies) it feels sad and frustrating fight and may loose to a carno ._.
In my opinion im fine with the sort term stam of carnos but i feel they could regain faster then to even that out (just a BIT faster tho).
Even without the bodie buff Carnos arent that much stronger, IF you can dodge their ram attacks.. wich is pretty difficult at this moment due to that instant charge.. Dmg should adjust by mometum spooling up imo then im fine with that tbh. Its is kinda broken atm to "Shift rightklick" 2m in front ye 😄

so kind of agree and disagree with ya 😄

[latent lotus]

i don’t see how more stam regen would even it because of the new stam changes and even if they just reverted that the fight would play a lot like a waiting game

[latent lotus]

my vision on carno is that the charge should be harder to land (so it can only be used in a ambush) and have it like a 60 secs cooldown(so it’s not used mid fight) , keep the carno ram pretty strong on damage and nerf it’s health a bit. having high damage and low health is exactly how i would like a ambusher

do u agree with that view?

also this has been a pretty chill discussion between a carno enjoyer and a cerato enjoyer so thank you for this

[hidden kettle]

totally agree on that one.
It should be a real thread stalkin its prey and time its attack well to like "one combo kill style" its prey as most predators do. No Predator wants long fights and waste energy 😄
But yea totally agree with ya havein carno like this would make peeps fear to get stalked while eatin or whatever 🙂
shouldt be a fighter tho
well thanks to you mate 🙂

[dusky surge]

i personally hate furthering into the ambush carno mindset

the accel changes honestly would make it a good pursuit animal better than an ambush creature, because it can pick itself back up in a chase and get back into it

[latent lotus]

i mean it would make it a good pursuit but i’m pretty sure the ambush is intended not just my mindset

[hidden kettle]

ye.
And normally its more of a small game hunter.. ya konw what i mean ? 😄

[dusky surge]

if ambush IS intended, it's a terrible candidate

[latent lotus]

yeah i know what that means, that doesn’t mean it’s incapable of hunting bigger things tho

also doesn’t high accel makes it impossible to small game hunt cause u aways loosing momentum

[latent lotus]

what other candidates are there

[hidden kettle]

why is it ?
Fast momentum. overwelming firepower and surprise. It got all three needed things to start the perfect fight in that term. sho why should it rush in and facetank ? 😄

[latent lotus]

yeah it’s like a great ambush right now, it’s just that it’s too good of a brawler

[dusky surge]

allosaurus, the bigger plains ambush hunter that also is better at pack hunting, punching up, combat with other dinosaurs, better agility, less specialised to specdifically plains

[dusky surge]

it's not really a good brawler at all

[hidden kettle]

well those arent playable now are they ? 😄
so under that conditions .. 😄

[latent lotus]

that’s a good point for why it shouldn’t be a ambush but that doesn’t really answer me

[dusky surge]

they're a candidate

[hidden kettle]

true.

[latent lotus]

carno is a really good fighter dude

[hidden kettle]

it is for now

[latent lotus]

ohh sorry i was asking candidates for carno playstyle not for ambush predators

[hidden kettle]

til we get something bigger.. then .. back to ambush it is 😄

[dusky surge]

its not a good brawler, but it's good at a specific style of combat that absolutely is not brawler

[latent lotus]

i mean what defines a brawler in the first place?

[hidden kettle]

Cera is sort of one

[latent lotus]

i thought it was just simply fighter

[dusky surge]

a brawler is up close and personal and designed to stay in your range and punish you for being there. Carno literally is

charge
do not engage for 20 seconds, stay out of range of the opponent
charge again
repeat

that's not a brawler style

[latent lotus]

so then what would you make carno like?

[hidden kettle]

well it is a scavenger wich is capable to fight / have a brawl if needed ( assumeing we got a dead body tho )

[latent lotus]

u are very right is just that i myself kinda use carno as a brawler sometimes

[dusky surge]

carno's low turn rate also makes it even worse of a brawler, because it creates a lot of openings in its defence

[latent lotus]

against like tenos and stegos

[hidden kettle]

well tbh as for now you can do because its the biggest carni atm

[dusky surge]

the fact you can use carno as a brawler against tenos and stegos is telling of how bad those two animals are

[latent lotus]

i don’t think we should have it that dependable of a body

[dusky surge]

teno is a designated brawler and it loses in its own fighting style against a non-brawler

[latent lotus]

telling how bad those players were

[hidden kettle]

well unfortunatly it is really depending on it `:D

[latent lotus]

teno is more of a stand it’s ground thing

[dusky surge]

its literally a brawler

[hidden kettle]

ye

[dusky surge]

like it is the quintisential brawler of this game

[latent lotus]

it is but it’s also like small

[dusky surge]

cerato is close, but it's not nearly as well designed as a brawler, which sucks because they constantly nerf teno for no reason

[latent lotus]

they nerf teno last update?

i didn’t feel a difference aside from the stamina changes

[dusky surge]

they actually gave it a small buff, which is great

too bad they suck compared to carno's buffs and it is still carno fodder

[hidden kettle]

ye as said it only is "brawler style" if ya got bodies around to use.
under that circumstances its actually a close range fighter punnishing enemeys approaching it 😄

[latent lotus]

like even in its own place of comfort a teno is just kinda small next to a carno no?

[dusky surge]

nope

teno is the second largest non-apex

[hidden kettle]

teno is pretty strong tho

[dusky surge]

1600kg vs carno's 1800kg

[dusky surge]

Compared to carno, omni or deino, it's biggest predators? It's pathetic

Those animals are FAR stronger

[latent lotus]

also i’d like to rant about utahs

most boring ass combat

u can’t choose to leave the fight and 90% is just them staring at you

they also come back as babies to keep u bleeding

should a solo tenonto reeeeally stand a fight against a carno? i mean i get it on a brawl

[hidden kettle]

dont bring deinos in that ... like stegos aswell..
against omnis teno can win no doubt about it. (depends on players as kinda always tho)
against carno ok carno can ground it and alt bite run repeat. But Teno isnt that bad.

[latent lotus]

at least from what i’ve seen from teno it really comes down to player skill, or rather how stupid the players are cause not trying to brag but i’ve been killin some carnos lately

[dusky surge]

i mean, issue with teno is that it has an extremely high skill floor and ceiling for basically the same reward as just playing a raptor or carno which is far less skill-oriented

[hidden kettle]

well a carno wont facetank a Teno due to fighting styles.. 😄

[dusky surge]

it kinda can

[hidden kettle]

ye

[dusky surge]

since they nerf basically every one of teno's attacks consistently

[latent lotus]

that’s very true anyone can pick a carno and kick ass

W+RMB

[dusky surge]

teno's tailslam does less damage than carno's bite

[hidden kettle]

the skills --> Shift+RMB 😄

[latent lotus]

but it does stun —so does charge—

[hidden kettle]

but the stun is pretty effective tho. As cera/raptor you really dont wanna get into this 😄

dont know if stun is same on carno tho because as carno you are the stunner then 😄

[latent lotus]

as raptors my tatic is to spam claw atack OR WAS now that pounce is kinda broken

[dusky surge]

well, lucky for them, they nerfed the knockdown time across the board the same update they nerfed tailslam, so teno's combos are worse

[hidden kettle]

i LOVE the new kick btw... apply bleed by jumping over it is pretty nice 😄

[keen plover]

Teno for example used to be able to run up and claw them when they did that

[hidden kettle]

well i still think a good teno player can be pretty tuff to fight

[keen plover]

So lame

They need an alternative forward facing attack for teno

[latent lotus]

so guys is a high skill ceiling good or bad for the isle?

[keen plover]

Good

[latent lotus]

or revert the alt atack to its former glory of using it while running

[keen plover]

Won't happen. Being able to run and turn 180 & attack is what made them change it in the first place

[latent lotus]

good point i guess

also deino pvp is wacky

[keen plover]

as in facetanking each other or how they can infinitely alt bite rn

[latent lotus]

yeah. it sucks

[keen plover]

Yeah they decided that Deino should be able to alt attack forever now, which makes it so fighting them on land is pointless :)

[latent lotus]

also they have 8T so it was already pointless anyways

i’m still settled in stego 4T deino 6T

[latent lotus]

as in facetanking eachother but they both suck

[hidden kettle]

Deino PvP is just pure facetank and pray for good depending who took the first bite.. cahnge my mind:D

and thats lame af 😄

used to play a lot of deino for some days to prove they can get everywhere (what i reget now gettin lunged everywher xD )
and tbh i cliffed like 4-5 of em just to play something else being bored to the deepest part 😄

@latent lotus btw still thanks for that calm enjoyable discuss between carno/cera enjoyers 🙂

[latent lotus]

thank you too! aways nice to have a chat

these tends to get too aggressive or exhausting so i’m glad it worked out

cya around!

[mint star]

a high skill ceiling means theres a lot to learn for a character

a low skill ceiling means anyone can play that character and do good

[frail bobcat]

Carno moment

[shadow vortex]

<@&933486433342222376> same dude here aw

Oh welp he's spamming in other channels too damn

[coarse blaze]

@normal belfry Because in dryo's case it's an animal really meant to take the flight route in the fight or flight response. Big man himself mentioned that in a recent stream.

[latent lotus]

and that’s good or bad

[coarse blaze]

Is something has a low skill ceiling that's bad in some ways, if something is OP and has said low skill ceiling anyone can suddenly play the most OP thing.

While something with a high skill ceiling will take time to learn and get good with

Carno is a good example, he's real strong and has a low skill ceiling - therefore not a lot of thought has to be put in to be successful.

[muted brook]

I'm stuck in the bug and I want help. Can admins EU1 help? MY NAME inanckilic37

[coarse blaze]

You're asking in the wrong channels. Check the pins in #evrima-eu to get help.

[crimson pebble]

I am saddened by Dondi's sentiment towards ptera players with the opinions on stamina changes. I also understand as an owner he is directly in the line of fire for any and all hate that comes with every change no matter how small. When you are in such a position it makes all criticism feel painful and I wish more people treated his opinions about his game better.

Personally I believe 4 and a half minutes to regenerate stamina is too painful, I understand wanting to balance them as he stated to discourage constant scouting for others, and persistence hunting like they did on spiro. The way they have been balanced in my unprofessional opinion is too punishing for players attention span. For survival and general game play it perfectly matches the dinos needs and allows for still fairly-easy survival in 96% of situations. (I have spent ~2 days playing a ptera since changes) But the moments where it really matters are things like nest building, hunting large areas, and catching food for more than one mouth (babies, juvies, others with broken wings from like a fall) to where the constant landing and taking off reduces the stamina pool so fast it genuinely feels like the game is just a waiting simulator. I understand that doing things like this though is meant to be more demanding on the player but having the current solution just be sit for nearly 5 minutes feels plainly unfun, especially if you build your nest up higher on a spot out of the reach of other dinos that you will have to climb up to each time.

I don't have perfect answers to this problem but I do trust the dev team to eventually figure it out in a way that is both balanced and makes players happy. For nest building possibly if twigs are in the mouth something like a reduced launch stam cost could be in effect? Again I am not a dev nor do I see everything behind the scenes, I am interested to see the warm air currents come into effect and see how player opinion shifts after it is added.

This game is fun and even if no stam changes happen for ptera specifically I will still enjoy playing the game. <3

I can't speak on other dino stam changes as I have not played enough to gain my own opinion on them.

[grizzled anchor]

@coarse blaze my theory is that the devs are all carno mains so they put instant acceleration, changed stam so everything else is bad and now have fun with their carnos. 😂

[hollow canyon]

absolutely not because the balance merely looking at the two makes it clear that Tenonto should not be able to defend itself from a predator larger than itself considering it was dying to animals a 1/10 of its own size.

Take that as you will.

although I would say - the balance demands it, while the logic denies it

[distant torrent]

eat grass and die returns

[slim dragon]

I was always here

[distant torrent]

you never seem to vanish from existence. you’re about as persistent as a mosquito

[slim dragon]

Pros of being already dead
I cannot be killed

[hollow canyon]

more like reality is harsh, Tenontosaurus is a particularly unimpressive animals and its presence in this size tier is a misunderstanding

[shadow vortex]

Wtf

[distant torrent]

…?
this ain’t reality though

it’s a game. some balancing choices might seem like it’s strange, but it’s a game that needs balancing for it to be fair to encourage people to play playables. no one will want to play a dryo (for a random example) if it was as slow as a stego and couldn’t fight anything

[latent bay]

Are

Are you using the realism card in a game where dinosaurs dont have lips, dromeosaurs and ornithomimids are featherless, and Carnotaurus doesn't just obliterate its entire neck and head ramming into something of equal size?

[hollow canyon]

it is a game, in which Tenontosaurus is forced to compete against animals such as Carno, Diablo, Baryonyx and Ceratosaurus because it's been oversized for no reason and then buffed up to hell. At half its current weight and with a decent amount of additional speed coupled with a significantly lower growth time it'd have been a superior playable.

As things are now - you might see like 1 per server in the future as there are just better alternatives to it at its current size.

[hollow canyon]

I'm using the fact that "there's like half a dozen more interesting dinosaurs in that size tier and Tenonto will have to compete with them" card

[latent bay]

You got me there carry on

[hollow canyon]

Kentrosaurus, Diabloceratops, Baryonyx, Ceratosaurus, Carnotaurus

each one of them more interesting and better armed than Tenonto

it'd have been a vastly superior animal at 800kg and with 70minutes growth time

than what it is now

[latent bay]

Thinking about it now I agree with Tenontosaurus' "mid tier bleeder-ish brawler" being weird because Diabloceratops, Kentrosaurus, Magyarosaurus, and Maiasaura all existing

[hollow canyon]

oh yea I forgot about Magy - that guy is also more interesting

admittedly Maia is a bit big

[latent bay]

Its ridiculous and stupid but more interesting nonetheless

[latent bay]

Its still within the mid tier as it's = size to allo who's generic-mid-tier-asaurus

[hollow canyon]

it is a mid tier, but it's significantly bigger than Tenonto

Idk if Teno/Cerato/etc even count as mid tiers

Carno does but it's a punch down animal that will perform very poorly against mid tiers due to its charge not affecting them

and it's undersized anyway

[latent bay]

I count them as the lowest mid tiers but at least cera could qualify for highest low tier

[distant torrent]

I honestly wouldn’t call cera better armed than teno. lower skill ceiling? definitely. but not better armed. as for carno, the only thing keeping it so overpowering against teno is the op ram that doesn’t just only negatively impact teno. for the rest, I have no idea how they will actually be in combat. you could take guesses, but we won’t truly know until they’re able to be played

and for my personal opinion, it’d depend on how fast teno would actually be and what else it could do to feel like it has a completed kit (like diving, but there’d also have to be more than just diving). downsizing the current teno to 800 kg and making it faster wouldn’t really make it fun. it’d just feel like a completely unnecessary huge nerf

the current teno feels like an angry murder horse and I genuinely love the feel

I also think teno is the most interesting out of all of those, especially if it gets its own version of sparring with its claws, but that’s just my personal opinion because my definition of interesting isn’t the same as yours

[hollow canyon]

Cera is definitely better armed than Tenonto? For quite obvious reasons that are the first thing you see while looking at it from the front?

Each one of those animals is indeed better armed than Tenontosaurus, except maybe Magy.

[distant torrent]

teno has a ranged attack, a kick with brutal bleed, a claw slash with brutal bleed. it has 300 more health, significantly more stamina, and is faster (though only by a tiny bit. still faster though)

it’d better armed, but it takes significantly more skill to play and master

[hollow canyon]

literally any dinosaur could attack with its tail, and a vast majority of them could kick, I won't even mention claw slashing because the answer there is even more obvious

also its claw bleed is subpar

its only the kick bleed that is one of the highest in the game

unless they tinkered with it in some weird way

kick bleed is iirc like 3rd or 4th highest bleed attack in the game

claw is way down the line from there

[distant torrent]

I’m mostly referring to what’s in game. a carno can’t kick in game, and a cera can’t either

I consider it good because it bleeds out omnis fast. it has plenty of choices to choose for what fits what battle and situation

[distant torrent]

I’ve heard from somewhere a single kick is equal to 4 or so omni pounces (before tap pounce was deleted)

[hollow canyon]

no

[distant torrent]

might’ve been 3, but it was definitely somewhere around that range

[hollow canyon]

I mean maybe tap pounces

[slim dragon]

what pounces ?

[distant torrent]

[frail bobcat]

Ayo what?

[hollow canyon]

exactly that pounces

but tbh

I don't think you can compare it to the pounce

pounce deals the higher bleed the more you hold it

kick does

iirc 275 bleed

[distant torrent]

the current pounce is just busted

[hollow canyon]

this makes it higher than just about anything but pounce, Deino bite/Stego swing

and maybe Cerato bite now

but idk

not sure how much bleed Cerato deals

I haven't been playing the game much for the last two or one updates

depending on whether Gateway is out

[distant torrent]

but I’ve bleed omnis out from a single kick, seen omnis bleed out and almost bleed out from claw attacks, I’ve bleed carnos out, and I’ve also bled ceras out. I’ve also almost bled to death from a couple of kicks as an adult cera. to me, the bleed feels very good regardless of what the stats actually are. I love it lol

[hollow canyon]

you can

Omnis have a tiny blood pool

merely 450 blood

your kick applies 275 bleed, if they run for a bit they are most certainly dead

[hollow canyon]

it is good

on the kick

on the claw it's like... half that of the kick?

less afaik

[distant torrent]

the claw still feels good with its bleed

[hollow canyon]

it never felt particularly good as far as I was concerned

although I'd ever use it against Utahs

because of its low stam cost

other than that - tail + kick

actually I even used the bite more than the claw

claw is such a niche part of the arsenal it's barely ever worth using

any time you can claw something

you're some 3 times better off just kicking it

[distant torrent]

I’d use it depending on the situation. if I just want to keep bleed going and won’t be able to turn around and kick, claw is a very good alternative

[hollow canyon]

I don't think bleed works like that anymore

it's not legacy that you'd want to keep it going

you only want it to keep going for tracking purposes really

[distant torrent]

anything is better than your opponent getting that plus sign

[hollow canyon]

claw doesn't do much, unless your target isn't an Omni or something smaller

[hollow canyon]

well if you itend to bleed them out sure

[distant torrent]

it’s still good depending on what you’re using it for

[hollow canyon]

but if they're bleeding out they kind of have to be mental to re engage and get themselves clawed

I think it's a pretty bad attack and by far the worst in Tenonto's arsenal

not that any of this was my point

my point is more so that most animals can do the things that Tenonto does

there's nothing particularly special about it in any way

[distant torrent]

not in the current game

[hollow canyon]

claws - loads of dinosaurs have that, kicks - also loads of dinosaurs have that, bites - yea, tail attacks - obviously

[hollow canyon]

I almost never talk about the current game

it's irrelevant anyways

sure Tenonto's ok now

how will it be doing when all the animals are available?

[distant torrent]

my guy, I don’t think balancing should be based on what something can technically do that’s not even in the game or planned lol… a cera could ram into something that’s lighter than it and knock it over like a carno. it can also bite like a carno. that doesn’t mean carno has nothing special about it and should be changed just because a cera can technically do everything a carno can do lol…

[hollow canyon]

it's not "what something can technically do" it's about "what it WILL be doing" - when the game is fully complete

[distant torrent]

will everything be kicking a kick and tail attack?

[hollow canyon]

what will Tenonto be about when 55+ if not 60 dinosaurs are out

[hollow canyon]

no, not everything has to, simply enough of animals with other, better things to offer on top of those attacks

[distant torrent]

I guess the same could be asked when trike is out. why play dibble when you have trike. besides, I’m pretty sure they’re looking to tweak teno’s kit because it is getting island migrations

[hollow canyon]

spikes, horns, larger size

etc

[hollow canyon]

Dibble takes much less time to play and is far faster?

you can literally grow it in what... 2h maybe if even that?

What will Teno have that will make it an interesting pick when you have multiple similarly sized animals in this size category

[distant torrent]

hopefully a more semiaquatic playstyle

[hollow canyon]

if you move it to 800-900kg however and reduce its size and give it speed it becomes a much more interesting dinosaurs immediately

it'd be the largest dinosaur in that tier

relatively fast to grow

and likely the strongest there

[distant torrent]

nah, not with the current teno

[hollow canyon]

with Ceratosaurus and Baryonyx in that same class size?

[hollow canyon]

yea, the current Teno will most certainly not have many things going for it with how things stand

[distant torrent]

sure. we need more semiaquatic herbis

[hollow canyon]

yea but if you can go for a semiaquatic Baryonyx/Cerato that will bite for ~<150 while in the water why pick an animal that can tickle for 40dmg while swimming?

They are just better in the water than Tenonto is

I think that Tenonto will be an utter waste at this size and growth time in the future

[distant torrent]

making it more semiaquatic doesn’t mean it’ll still keep its lack of useful attacks in water. changes could be made, and they absolutely should be made if it gets sent to a more aquatic lifestyle

[hollow canyon]

now? Sure it's cool, it's one of my most played dinos for the past however many upates since U3

[hollow canyon]

it is pretty semiaquatic

every animal so far can all but bite while swimming except maybe deino

[distant torrent]

all it can do is swim fast, and that’s it unfortunately

[hollow canyon]

it also has the best swimming stamina in the game

last I checked

[distant torrent]

it does

[hollow canyon]

it could outswim Deino in terms of distance many times over

[tropic horizon]

Give it a kangaroo esque drowning ability I think that would be cool for teno to be able to do in water

[hollow canyon]

wat

[distant torrent]

please that’d be so neat lol

[tropic horizon]

I mean teno could wrestle things in water

With its arms

[hollow canyon]

that is something that'd take loads of work

[distant torrent]

let it yoink lighter things than it like omni and drown them

[distant torrent]

but it’d give it more of a unique playstyle

[tropic horizon]

I mean the whole game would anyway

[hollow canyon]

the devs have said something like iirc "they won't add anything to old animals that'd require that much work"

aside from maybe Stego and Deino

hell if we're going that way I'd add to it an additional tail attack that does a 180

and swipes everything in its arc CC-ing small things

and letting Teno finish a hit-small target off

there's loads of things that could be done with it

but those aren't happening because the devs are working on the new stuff

[tropic horizon]

That’s a bit silly of them kind of wasting the potential of the playables they currently have

[hollow canyon]

no, not really

I wouldn't want to be going back to the animals that are already out and done when there's ~50 of them they still have to work on

[tropic horizon]

I mean they should probably focus on refining what they currently have before yknow

Making 50+ Dinos

[distant torrent]

personally, I’m all for kangaroo drowner teno

letting them spar and throw hands at each other would make my day

[tropic horizon]

I’d take the current roster with each of the playables being refined and having their niches realized over 60 or so dinosaurs that are half baked and barely fit cohesively in the same game

[tall bronze]

Been said many times before that not everything will be enabled all at once, and there may be variants of official servers each with it's own roster and play style. Regardless of the latter, unofficials can make their own rosters. So all the playables planned aren't gonna have to be crammed in and forced to work together (which Don has actively said would not be possible anyways)

....I mean technically you could make a buffet server with all enabled, but don't expect balance sounds fun though

[sonic flame]

tbh all Teno would need to be a better semi aquatic is what

swimming alt attack? Maybe if it's lucky a secondary attack as well?

since Teno doesn't gallop while swimming the front legs could be freed to give it a Beipi-style claw swipe while swimming

tho the animal already has a pretty solid moveset, at least conceptually, and you can get a lot of variety out of just tweaking things like damage/stam/CC limits

[foggy elm]

itd be cool if a fully charged up cera bite stunned carno

[slim dragon]

unnecessary

[tropic horizon]

Uhhhh no?

[foggy elm]

why not?

its a way to let cera 50/50 a carno without making cera op

[slim dragon]

Would it be cool if a pounce from troodon stunned stego
Wait it does

[tropic horizon]

You’re just giving it unnecessary power

[slim dragon]

That's not letting it 50/50
That's making the matchup insanely cera-favored

[tropic horizon]

That would make cera op though

[foggy elm]

only if its fully charged up, 5 seconds

5 seconds is plenty of time for a carno to run away and avoid it with instant accel

cause right now carno destroys cera

[tropic horizon]

Then remove instant acceleration

Problem solved

[foggy elm]

thats an option aswell, but they are most likely not gonna do that

[tropic horizon]

They wouldn’t add a stun to ceras chargebite either

[foggy elm]

they should, it would be really cool

[tropic horizon]

They should just yknow

[foggy elm]

make it do the animation when teno kicks carnos head, it only lasts .5 seconds

ONLY if its fully charged up

[tropic horizon]

Make carno not a demigod

[foggy elm]

yes, but id like to see how the charged cerastun would work out in a test server

carno is only really op against cera, i can easily kill carnos as teno

5 FULL seconds is plenty of time for carno to get away from the stun, + even if the cera stunned the carno the carno can just run away because carno has more stam than cera (for some reason)

[slim dragon]

Then what's the point ?
Apart from making cera godtier against teno and other similar-sized animals ?

[foggy elm]

make it so it only stuns animals that weigh exactly 1800 kg

[slim dragon]

but that's absurd

[foggy elm]

thats carnos weight

[slim dragon]

So it doesn't stun a 99% grown carno but it stuns a 100% grown one

It's stupid

[foggy elm]

think of it being a super hard hit to carnos legs. the carno gets stunned then runs away

[foggy elm]

i was joking. maybe it only works against carnos

orrrr

they can make carno not op

because cera should be able to kill a carno 50/50

[slim dragon]

That's the better options

[slim dragon]

Not necessarily
It should depend on the environment
Cera has no business trying to fight a carno in open plains without a body to protect

[foggy elm]

i still think it would be more fun to give it a stun, but making carno not op is the better option

[foggy elm]

true, i was wrong, cera should 60/40 carno

[slim dragon]

Giving it a stun leads to an awful lot of issues
Like making teno cera fodder

[slim dragon]

I'm not taking the bait

[foggy elm]

what bait

[shadow vortex]

Cerato already has a stun on puking. Any creature basically can just walk while throwing up lol. So it would be better to actually bring carno back to earth, that's all

[foggy elm]

wait, can you run while puking?

[tropic horizon]

Nuh uh

[foggy elm]

i actually dont know which bait

[foggy elm]

oh, then take back everything i said

[slim dragon]

this one

[foggy elm]

im honestly not sure what you mean by that but alright

[slim dragon]

I mean it's an absurd take

[foggy elm]

oh

[foggy elm]

its not, because cera is a brawler. brawler > small game hunter. but arguing about it wont fix anything

[shadow vortex]

You can't even attack so for different creatures it's 2-4 free bites for cera

Because welp, puking time varies per species

...and I'm not gonna talk that pachy got that extremely absurd puking time of 3 damn seconds (or even 4?)

[coarse blaze]

Cera is already pretty strong it doesn't need a stun.

It has the bacteria system, a pretty nice bite and body buff for combat bits.

Also puke gives you a good couple of seconds to take advantage of so - in a weird sense it already kind of has a stun.

[foggy elm]

it needs a 200 bite force though

[distant torrent]

@young iron based

[young iron]

Indeed

[coarse blaze]

Love seeing a huge mixpack of omnis and ceras because of the whole "can't swing while a single omni is latched" thing so that the ceras can just kill you! 🙃

[shadow vortex]

Bruv, sad thing

Welp if that cera hadn’t cooperated cooperate with utahs he probs would’ve been eaten by them xD Even 2 utahs now may not be afraid of adult cera, because they can easily kill it :\ If they two pounce a cera and stay on it till 50% stamina, cera will have 60 or 70 (don’t really remember) hp left. Then they just can finish it using bites. Kinda pathetic for a creature which is supposed to be a machine against these pack bleeders

[keen plover]

Cera is a small tier

Literally tiny compared to Carno.

While it shouldn’t be losing as badly as it is now, it still should be Carno sided

[dusky surge]

cerato should be enough of an annoyance for carno not to face off

[coarse blaze]

It was like 4 FG ceras and 6 FG omnis

[dusky surge]

cera doesn't need to have the advantage on a carno if it can be an annoying pest and potentially kill it

[hollow canyon]

Cera isn't 50/50ing a Carno because it's not supposed to 50/50 a Carno

[solid imp]

I mean

A skilled cerato can

Dodge a carno charge once or twice, then out-stam it

[foggy elm]

cera is the same size as carno, what are you talking about

[foggy elm]

so its supposed to 60/40 a carno?

[tall bronze]

Cerato is 1300kg, Carno is 1800kg.

[foggy elm]

without the legs is the same size, if not bigger than carno

[slim dragon]

It's not
Cera is 500kg less than carno

[tall bronze]

That's height

[slim dragon]

And that's why they have legs

[tall bronze]

I kinda want a Carno with no legs

[slim dragon]

Did you know ? Without the tail a snake wouldn't be bigger than a mouse

[latent lotus]

thats because a snake IS the tail

[slim dragon]

Just like carno and its legs

[latent lotus]

look man, it is bigger. but their bodies and heads are pretty similar cerato being only slightly smaller

[foggy elm]

cera and carno are the aame size minus the legs

[slim dragon]

Well they have legs
Also a different build
Which leads to the conclusion : carno is bigger

In terms of height, length AND weight

[foggy elm]

carno is "bigger" but cerato has a bigger head and should be stronger

its a brawler

[slim dragon]

Cerato is already much stronger relative to its size

[latent lotus]

sure but these extra points are being dumped in speed and not in raw bite power

[slim dragon]

Also it's not just the size of the head that matters... where does that idea even comes from

[tall bronze]

If it charges it's bite and is near a corpse, it can definitely be tougher than it seems. Of course, Carno can still delete it because charge is busted

[foggy elm]

not really, tenonto is smaller than cera and can kill carno easier

[slim dragon]

That's the thing
Tenonto isn't smaller than cera

Teno is 1600kg

[latent lotus]

tenonto is bigger then cerato

[slim dragon]

I would like cera to be a "not worth the fight" thing rather than "obliterates anything that isn't 2x its size"

[latent lotus]

yeah, it also has the bacteria so its not worth most times

[tall bronze]

Size in these cases is usually weight, not things like height or length. So for Cera and Carno, Carno would be bigger since it's 1.8T while Cera is 1.3T. Though it's good to remember that size isn't everything. By itself, a Cerato is quite vulnerable to Carno. But a clever Cerato with some stank mouth, a charged bite, and especially a corpse nearby it wants to defend, and it can be quite the pain.

Excluding charge just being broken of course

Which is it's own issue

"Haha near-instant 350 damage and stun/knockdown go vwoosh"

[foggy elm]

carno shouldnt destroy carno like it does now, cerato is the brawler/bully, carno is the ambusher/glass cannon assasin. carnos charge SHOULD do lots of damage, even more than it already does, but make it harder to land and give it a 60 second cooldown

[latent lotus]

destroy is too strong of a word honestly

[tall bronze]

Carno's got 1.8k health, that doesn't seem very glass cannony to me. Especially with it's charge

[foggy elm]

yea, thats why it needs less health

[slim dragon]

No, no, carno's charge should definitely do less damage than it currently does

[tall bronze]

Also the concept of ambush focused Carno needs to die already

[latent lotus]

carno charge also should be hard to hit but here we are

[tall bronze]

Yeah charge is just....

[foggy elm]

it is literally an ambusher, thats the whole purpose of its charge

[slim dragon]

You're just trying to remake dinos into what they aren't

[tall bronze]

And it should die, yes.

[slim dragon]

It's not and should never be one

[latent lotus]

okay then if not an ambusher what is carno

[foggy elm]

if 2 armored horns were charging at you at 55kmph it would do alot of damage, which its why carnos charge should be harder to land

[tall bronze]

The tall, obvious, open plains focused animal being designed to rely mostly on ambushes seems quite odd, and has resulted in whatever the hell Carno is right now.

[foggy elm]

^

[foggy elm]

what should carno be then?

[slim dragon]

Pursuit predator
Spots prey far away in the plains
Prey tries to run away
It can't, gets run down and eaten

[shadow vortex]

If two armored horns were charging at me we both probs would be dead, cause carno snapping its neck goes brr

[latent lotus]

so its stronger and faster?

[foggy elm]

but carno has instant accel and a ambushing charge ability, thats the oposite of what carno is right now

[slim dragon]

Than its designated prey ? Yes that's the point of it

[tall bronze]

There was once a time long ago in legacy where it was pretty much what Bubulbu described. It could chase you and keep up, but not instantly delete you if you payed attention, but you had to have an escape plan or else eventually, you'd get got. Was super fun.

[slim dragon]

Exactly
Current carno is terrible in an insane number of ways

[tall bronze]

Which is why we're advocating for changes 😛

[latent lotus]

(how it SHOULD and not is according to him)

[shadow vortex]

So people don't like the charge and some even instant accel lol

[foggy elm]

thats just making carno op, so if it sees something in the plains its 100% dead? so every other animal in the roster has to live in the forrests?

[latent lotus]

tf is a bublubu

[slim dragon]

Carno has been advertised as a plains hunter multiple times, even by Dondi
The recent changes were supposed to push it into that niche
But obviously it didn't work because they're so bad

[tall bronze]

@slim dragon

[latent lotus]

woops its a person

[tall bronze]

[foggy elm]

what do you mean

[latent lotus]

ohh its that person

sorry i dont read names

[slim dragon]

No
Carno isn't killing something the size of a teno or bigger alone
Smaller animals can hide, or juke it long enough to retreat to a place where carno will have trouble pursuing it

But yes, smalls should mostly live in forested areas and environments where they have escape routes from bigger predators

[foggy elm]

there you go, something i agree with. solo carno shouldnt be killing tenos or ceras, its a small game hunter

[tall bronze]

Yep. Can think of it like a chase sequence in a horror game. You CAN escape, but you need to have a plan and not slow down

[latent lotus]

so ur view of carno is small game hunter?

[tall bronze]

Juke, out endure, escape to safer terrain, or kill it

[slim dragon]

Cera should be something a carno isn't willing to mess with
But a cera should absolutely not look at a carno and think "I can win this fight ez" either

[shadow vortex]

Ceras shouldn't obliterate carnos either, they're scavengers lol

[foggy elm]

see? so carno shouldnt be killing ceras because its "so much bigger"

[slim dragon]

Yes
Kinda how it was advertised to be

[latent lotus]

👆

[latent lotus]

thats kinda lame, sorry

[hollow canyon]

Carno is some half a tonne bigger so it's definitely larger

[slim dragon]

Better than being a discount allo or discount alberto

[hollow canyon]

it's not

[foggy elm]

HYENAS are scavengers and can easily kill cheetahs "cerato is scavenger so weak" is stupid, scavenger means it can eat rotten meat and it has high hunger drain. not that it cant hunt anything

scavengers are not weak

[shadow vortex]

So you're defending 'small game hunter' niche but can't admit that a cera is 'small game scavenger'? Also hyenas are in PACK most of the times, and I talked about ceras in packs too

[slim dragon]

Cera already is anything but weak

[foggy elm]

carno is the small game ambusher, and cerato is a brawler/bully

[latent lotus]

also lets not revert carno into up 6.5 carno whos literally W+RMB then create a huuuge distance and then W+RMB cause it didnt have the accel to fight anything in a mid range

[slim dragon]

The fact it can contend with a carno already proves how strong it is

[shadow vortex]

Also cera has everything it needs near a body it SHOULD scavenge

[hollow canyon]

Hyenas are hunters and opportunistic scavengers like most animals

[shadow vortex]

Nuh uh

[hollow canyon]

and a small game for Carno

[foggy elm]

ok, so carno is a small game ambusher, and cerato is the brawler bully

[hollow canyon]

the "small game brawler bully"

[tall bronze]

Cerato is stank is what it is But generally yeah, Cerato with food is a pain to move away from it and will fight you for it.

[hollow canyon]

and Carno is not an ambusher

[shadow vortex]

Brawler bully near a body, otherwise it's not if not in pack lol

[halcyon elk]

Thats when cerato is supposed to be a brawler and bully.

[shadow vortex]

Agreed, so prove it not to me, but to Bonjo xdd

[halcyon elk]

Cera is supposed to be brawler bully on corpses specifically. Not necessarily when off of them.

If a cera is on a body you're not moving that cera unless you can utterly obliterate it.

And even if you do kill the cera. It's possible you aren't getting out unscathed.

[dusky surge]

or burrows in certain scenarios. Carno should be terror of the plains for the smaller creatures

[coarse blaze]

I'm genuinely fine with cera being absurdly strong on corpses, that's it's whole niche thing. Cera steal your body? Better go after something else before that hunger meter drops even more.

[dusky surge]

yea, pretty much

[stark knoll]

@sullen valley If you are experiencing issues with your controls since the latest update (can't move camera, unable to court, etc) then please try wiping your config files in localappdata.

1. If running The Isle, exit the game.
2. Press the Windows key
3. Type %localappdata% then press Enter.
4. Find "TheIsle" folder. Open it.
5. Open the "Saved" folder.
6. Delete the "Config" folder. Note: This will reset any of your custom settings to their defaults.
7. Restart the game. The issues should be fixed.

[sonic flame]

@analog mirage I know this isn't gonna actually change anything, but it's a misconception that tail slam cannot cancel charge

it can do so, however, the timing is strict

Tail slam is def not a reliably option when facing down a charging carno, but it has never had any dedicated mechanic allowing it to stop charge, if anything, it would've been charge having less reliably hit detection and a good amount of server latency making the tail slam have more leeway

since Carno's charge hit detection was updated and server latency was cut down bit by bit, the tail slam is now an extremely precise move if you're trying to parry a charge with it, but it can still be done

if you're lucky, you can even use rear kick as a way to parry the charge, but I don't recommend either in the current state of the game tbh

[dusky surge]

the issue i have is still that carno is so heavily favoured without that interaction

350 damage is the highest any non-apex animal can use, and it's on the fastest animal in the game with knockdowns, no need to halt momentum or position yourself, no need to really time it or anything

[sonic flame]

That's a bit besides the point but yeah, Carno is heavily favored in the matchup atm

and again, the ability to parry charge isn't actually gone, and there wasn't a dedicated parry in the first place, tho theoretically we could get something like Teno having armor during tail slam or whatever to off set it

as it stands, the server being less wonky than in earlier updates means the old strat of "simply hit them first" is far less likely to work so Teno would need to get some sort of other benefit to either make sure it hits first, or to ignore it when Carno hits first

[slim dragon]

Teno gets hyper-armor during tail slam
It can spend a drive charge to make an EX-tailslam that throws the opponent into the air and allows for juggling

[sonic flame]

sadly Teno has no air attacks besides bite, which has no knockback

but if you can time it well, you can use medium and heavy kicks to keep the opponent airborne

[slim dragon]

And cancel them with a super art

[sonic flame]

if you hold back and then full circle heavy kick with burst active, you can activate SHANTUNGOSAURUS INSTALLLL!!!!

[slim dragon]

Ok back to topic, the more I see mentions of those interactions the more I wonder about how they're programmed to behave
It's seems like it's a case-by-case basis, which is clearly not reliable on the long term

[sonic flame]

There's only one special ability vs ability interaction in the entire game

the others are all just "who hit who first"

[dusky surge]

is this a DBFZ reference

[slim dragon]

It seems the game lacks a lot of the "organic" interactions it requires
Like it would be much more convenient imo if every attack had "stagger damage" and every dino "stagger resistance"

[slim dragon]

Nah Street Fighter

[dusky surge]

damn

[sonic flame]

I played with the concept during early update 2 days, it gets messy real quick

[slim dragon]

And you build interactions and numbers into that to bring 🌈 emergent gameplay 🌈

[sonic flame]

there's a reason we didn't end up going with a "CC damage" value

[slim dragon]

Oh ? Why ?

[sonic flame]

It is insanely more complicated than just a simple threshold

[slim dragon]

I mean in my eyes it just seems like a better option but maybe there's something I don't understand in how it's handled

[dusky surge]

CC damage does sound horrid to keep track of imho

I just like weight-based stuff

[sonic flame]

"I stagger you if you are between these two weights" vs "You stagger when you drop below X% stagger health which is depleted by my stagger damage, both values are unique to all species and attacks"

[dusky surge]

(speaking of, carno should not be knocking down anything over 50% its own weight, and should stagger instead)

[sonic flame]

The only think we're really lacking from the current threshold based stagger thing is interactions with locational damage

i.e. a hit to the head or a hit to the leg behave the same when doing staggers

[slim dragon]

I don't like the weight-based thing because then two animals with the same weight are exactly equally resistant to stagger
And I feel already way too many mechanical values are handled by weight
To the point that increasing troodon's weight by 1kg could change massively how it plays

[sonic flame]

but that's something that we can adjust easily without having to add an entirely new damage type

[dusky surge]

damage type sounds way more complex imho

[sonic flame]

Two animals of the same weight being equally resistant to stagger was an intentional change during weight = hp

since we didn't want 200kg stego and 200kg Omni to have 1500hp and 100hp respectively

and likewise, as a mechanic operating off weight, it would've been strange to punt a 200kg Omni but the 200kg Stego doesn't flinch

That being said, the most recent dev blog does show that CC is getting a bit of an expansion now

[slim dragon]

And I still hate that change tbh

[sonic flame]

Imo it just makes everything a lot easier to handle when you've got as many planned characters as this game has

and avoids situations like legacy where 4 ton animal A has 4k hp and 4 ton animal B has 350 hp

[slim dragon]

I see it as the opposite
You can't change a character's health without changing a lot of other values
And you can't change those other values either without changing its max health
Also weight being equal to health isn't exactly realistic either... And it can also become quite bothersome when you have 20 kg animals and 20tons in the same playing field

[sonic flame]

There are plenty of ways of changing the character's effective health without changing their max hp, and same for other stats, so I don't see it as much of an issue

[slim dragon]

I'd just have it as "base values" that will not change whatever happens balance-wise
Like humans have 100 HP
And you build up other creatures health based off that and their relative resistance compared to a human being

[sonic flame]

we had that with Omniraptor having 1000hp until weight = hp

Teno/Carno had 2k, Stego had 4k

[slim dragon]

But then it's weird
Like if you want to make a small creature a little bit tougher because it's awfully light you just... give it damage resistance ? Like what gives ?

[slim dragon]

Ok but it's not because hp was separate from weight
The balance was just all over the place

And we still have deino that is visually the size of an omniraptor but weights 3 tons so it isn't really better