balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

idk, carno should just rarely visit water

[analog mirage]

I don’t see why it would need to

[torn egret]

So that's why I think adding the ability to hydrate on meat, even a bit, could help.

[analog mirage]

If anything give that to something minor like velo

[alpine sleet]

sorry im back, ill read your answers

[torn egret]

But Idk if that even helps

[dusky surge]

i mean, it already takes forever to dehydrate

[analog mirage]

Carno doesn’t have a dehydration problem

[hollow canyon]

yes there is and it looks like dread incarnate, probably my favourite cat:

[torn egret]

32% kill rate on housecats apparently

[dusky surge]

creature of war

[hollow canyon]

the messenger of death

[dusky surge]

violence pollutes its mind

[alpine sleet]

i think that a better comparasion for what you told me carno should be would be a Hungarian greyhound, they are fast, have very good stam, dont rely on ambush and is much bigger than its preys, rabbits and mares, also you told me something about the succes rate, but i dont see why to point that when irl carnivores fail most of the times the isle doesnt need to be just like in real life

[dusky surge]

honestly a greyhound is kind of a fitting description tbh

[alpine sleet]

i know they are artificial made by humans no need to point that, im trying to compare the playstile

its a comparasion i made to understand what you were trying to explain me

[torn egret]

Once again, you can't perfectly equate a carno to a dog, or anything else imo.

Dogs also rely on packs, and are very social.
The ecology back then was too different. And in the isle, you fail a hunt, you die.

So keeping death to a minimun on a failed hunt should be just as important

I think That Carnis should not have to rely on a perfect hunt every time

[alpine sleet]

im just comparing the hunting style and the hunter-prey role, which once again is very simmilar, greyhounds dont need to rely on packs to hunt a mare, they sometimes do but dont need it to succed

[torn egret]

But once again, the Isle as it is now is not great for Carnos. So many variations in elevation, not enough food for herbis to even want to go there sometimes.
You can compare it to a greyhound, but greyhounds need flatter land.

[alpine sleet]

gateway

gateway has actual plains unilke whatever spiro is

[torn egret]

Haven't played gateway yet... where is that? other map or?

[alpine sleet]

yes its another map, the next big feature

spiro, the current map, is horribly designed and affects all the playables

[torn egret]

If there was more AI I'd think the game would be easier for present carno

[alpine sleet]

right now there are giant bushes every 3 meters or so

[torn egret]

And lack of food otherwise XD

[alpine sleet]

yes

[torn egret]

For everything^

[alpine sleet]

migrations, a better level design, more ai (thats confirmed), could make that greyhound like carno viable imo

[dusky surge]

(last time i played on Gateway, AI was kinda hard to find and I sort of loved it)

but Gateway has advanced a long way since I've played, so who knows what the AI is like now

[alpine sleet]

i like the idea of tenos and utahs ai because sometimes is hard to find something to interact with

but i know a big part of the community dislikes it

[dusky surge]

i despise it

because it's not interacting with anything with real substance

it's an AI to be cheesed and eaten

I can't talk with it, I can't communicate with my calls with it, I can't group with it, I can't travel with it, i can't nest with it, it exists to feed carnivores or provide some "threat" to other animals

[alpine sleet]

mh yes i guess, imo its better than walking for 2 hours with nothing to do but if gateway is good enough+migrations they shouldnt bee needed

[torn egret]

If AI development gets better for the Isle, it could be viable tho.
Take a note from Dauntless for example.

The behemoths in that game have very decent ai

But the focus of this game is not AI, so that's why it's comparatively lackluster

[alpine sleet]

kinda off topic but if you had to bet, how long do you think until gateway releases?

[dusky surge]

here's the thing with that, at what point do you make AI so competent that it is running so much calculations that it is literally more resource-intensive to the server than simply another plays slot

like, AI is all being computed by the server

all its behaviours, pathfinding, reactions, so on

it's all server-controlled, and it all takes computational power

if AI is that complex that it seamlessly integrates itself in a way that doesn't make it obviously AI, why not just... add another playerslot, which would inevitably end up being cheaper on resources

[torn egret]

Lots of things to consider 100%.
Once the game is made, and optimization can happen, then I think we'd be alright with exploring AI

[dusky surge]

the thing is, optimisation or not, calculations of that scale will inevitably be costly, you can't avoid that

if you are trying to make AI capable of acting as a psudo-player, it will be EXCEPTIONALLY complex, and by extention, costly

[torn egret]

Maybe fewer small AI and more big AI then?
Don't have to be perfect, but basic attacks that can risk dmg would be enough

Like I don't want pseodo players. I want AI that can keep mid size dinos and packs of small ones alive

[dusky surge]

i mean, I just kinda love how AI is done now. Simple, small, with unique behaviours that separate them. I feel dino AI both ruin my immersion and will inevitably cause a strain on servers as they try to emulate a human player

[torn egret]

Even if they are easy to killl, having them there is enough to help with carni on carni violence and let herbis survive

[torn egret]

Like I said, the AI doesn't need to be great. Just enough to fill the space.

[alpine sleet]

i think it depends on the player, i had no problem with the old dryo ai, also as far as i know the new ai will react to calls, i wouldnt mind a herd of tenos acting just as tenos walking around and defending themselves

[dusky surge]

I actually disagree with this sentiment, mid-sized dinos like allo should be struggling to survive on AI and primarily aiming for player animals. Apex sized animals should literally not be able to sustain themselves on AI in the slightest, forcing player confrontation and making them the hardest to sustain by a longshot

[torn egret]

But the ai now, minus boar, lol are good like you said. simple, but also not enough of the big ones

[torn egret]

100%, It needs to be a matter of helping them stay alive, not sustaining them. Hope I'm saying it the way I want it to come across lmao

English is only my 1st language lol

[distant torrent]

@mortal tundra omni is just an issue for more than just carno so nerfing omni instead of buffing carno’s blood pool to that much would be a lot better imho. teno struggles with omni, pachy struggles with omni, and stego would even struggle with omni if it didn’t have the awful terrain Spiro currently has. omnis are agile and hard to hit, and they deal insane bleed from just one little tap pounce. not to mention the lack of pounce recovery for them lol… honestly no idea why that was removed

if alt attacks and pounces weren’t so weird and messed up right now, I’m certain omni would be dominating everything without a single issue

[obtuse ocean]

I agree on that, but i think the question then will be what and how easy will a herbi apex be ? If they can be 3+ in herds and still sustain easy. What will pressure them, cus i doubt 1 carni apex will

[dusky surge]

they're vulnerable as young, and there will inevitably be groups of apex carnis hunting them

also hypers

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, im talking grown ones. Cus i hope we dont see 3+ rexes as "normal"

[halcyon elk]

@random stump literally every single thing you just listed is being worked on my dude.

[random stump]

as of now
half of the roster may as well not be there
and lets say they do manage migration
well cool, now instead of staying in one general area to get killed by a silent carno because my eyes-on-the-sides-of-the-head herbivore has camera lock, i can do it all over the map and die in the exact same way and just as often because the carno follows my migration pattern!
lets say they get severe weather too
oh boy i cant wait to be forced into a cave by a storm and then die to a cerato that was sitting there waiting for me!
lets say they get nesting as well
time to sit on my nest in once place.
in the open.
in the game full of ambush predators
and everything is fast beyond belief
interesting environments to explore would be nice but in the long run how much does it matter? all that does is make a walking simulator pretty

even with said things added the majority of these creatures are still pointless
unless they make a map/area that removes anything bigger then them then they may as well not be there
and then that map is missing 95% of the roster so most people are unlikely to play it anyways

[halcyon elk]

DUDE, SOME ANIMALS ARENT DEATH DEATH MURDER HOBO.

Some would rather RUN, rather than FIGHT.

[random stump]

yes
i get that
however
what exactly are you suppossed to do on them?

just play a walking simulator?

[halcyon elk]

Survive, get to elder.

Start all over again.

[random stump]

and what, pray tell, is the point of that

oh boy +5% damage now i only need 80 kicks to kill a carno instead of 85 (:

[halcyon elk]

Thats...The point of the entire game??? Like seriously that is the END GAME.

[random stump]

whats the reward

why would you do it
what is the point

[halcyon elk]

You get to keep mutations.

[random stump]

and what are these mutations

[halcyon elk]

If that's the case why EVEN PLAY THE DAMN GAME.

[random stump]

exactly

[halcyon elk]

In fact why not play NO GAMES? SINCE THERE ISNT A POINT TO THEM.

[random stump]

mf
what do the mutations do

lets look at the other two games

[halcyon elk]

They grant buffs and visual differences iirc.

[random stump]

anything can fight anything in both of them
pot lets you gain coins that let you buy cosmetics
bob lets you reincarnate, grow infinitely, and eventually gain experience to buy cosmetics
the isle you just die and respawn as a baby again
or you hit elder and respawn with um...
5% extra stamina and you can get like a single new color maybe (:
because that makes a difference

[halcyon elk]

Yea yea the other games do this better and that better. I have heard this story one hundred billion times at all times

[random stump]

dont get me wrong

the isle does some balancing aspects better

tmk tyrannosaurs will not be dying to single velociraptors in the isle

so basically, what ive gotten from you is that the gameplay loop for the foddersauruses is

"spawn in"
"run away"
"get old"
"die"
"spawn in with +5% stamina or some other negligable thing"
"repeat"

if mutations continue stacking then maybe i can see it being cool

[halcyon elk]

Yea...that's their thing? People actually enjoy the playstyle of running and or defending themselves. Also remember, we don't fully know what the mutations do. For all we know there's a 30% grow buff.

[random stump]

if after growing 100 gallis you might have +25% damage +50% speed +30% stamina or something
its just that that would take 200 hours

[halcyon elk]

Still though, it's likely mutations aren't that negligible

[random stump]

you overestimate the isle

[frail bobcat]

mutations arent supposed to give stat buffs

[halcyon elk]

You underestimate it

[random stump]

💀

[halcyon elk]

They are???

[frail bobcat]

they will make you survive better by giving you new abilities and niches

[dusky surge]

no, they aren't

[halcyon elk]

That has been said several times.

[halcyon elk]

Oh.

[random stump]

ok then that is cool

[dusky surge]

damage buffs and so on are kinda off the table

[halcyon elk]

Ohhhh

[random stump]

carnivorus gallimimus.

[halcyon elk]

Aight then that's much better

[halcyon elk]

Egg thief galli, water galli

[random stump]

flying galli.

although now theres another issue

why play egg theif galli when um
oviraptor

why play water galli when literally any semi aquatic

other then for trolling purposes

[slim dragon]

Why play omni when cera exists ?
Because they're different

[random stump]

ok
counterpoint
why play dryo when galli exists

[slim dragon]

Dryo is unfinished

[random stump]

nvm dryo gets burrowing in 30 years from now

why play cory when para exists

why play bronto when apa exists or vice versa

those two are literally so similar they've bee nthe same species on and off for years

[slim dragon]

Because they're different

[random stump]

how

[slim dragon]

These are unreleased creatures, you can't say they're the same until they're in active development

[random stump]

how are they going to differentiate
the sauropods that are literally so similar that they've been thought to be the same thing multiple times
and then someone found out that one neck bone was slightly longer on one then the other or something

[slim dragon]

Realistically teno and dryo would be the same thing
Yet they aren't

[random stump]

tf

man i just compared two sauropods
you compared a hadrosaur and an ornithopod

[slim dragon]

They're both iguanodontids

[random stump]

nope

teno is
dryo isnt

also
bronto and apa are the same subfamily

you tried to compare the same clade
and they werent even that

i could see diplo and apa or diplo and bronto being slightly different
but this is like
leopard vs jaguar levels of difference

where one is slightly stockier and lives in somewhat wetter areas and bites a different spot to kill

but is otherwise the same thing

grizzly vs kodiak is a better comparison

[hollow canyon]

It's about the thrill of being hunter, if that's not your cup of tea, then you should probably play something else.

I know sure as hell I wouldn't want to play anything like Dryo, Hypsi or Pternodon unless I wanted to scout out the new map to know what's where.

[random stump]

oh boy i sure do love the thrill of being hunted
so epic to lose 2 hours of dinosaur in a single hit/pounce because i only looked around for 5 minutes before i dared to eat or drink

[distant torrent]

I actually really want mutations that’ll help dryo and smaller playables out

some mutations I want for dryo:

• the ability to crudely make more rooms and tunnels in a burrow
• the ability to have a single “escape” charge like the dodge charge to slip out of a pounce or grab with a cooldown of 10-20 minutes
• the ability to carry more food, and to have said food that has been carried last significantly longer without despawning when dropped
• a mutation that allows for a change in diet options or even expanding on their natural diet options

• also a mutation that allows for the drinking of salt water

• maybe even a mutation that allows for 1-2 extra dodge charges

I’d also want a mutation that allows for a 360 degree camera while eating and drinking, but I feel like that should be implemented into dryo regardless since it’s such a defenseless prey animal right now

[random stump]

any of the run away creatures should probably have higher camera angles

the weaker/smaller, the higher the angle

like i could see rex with a camera lock less then it currently is
maybe allo with the current one
carno with a somewhat better then now one
galli with like 200-250
and then stuff like dryo with the full 360

[distant torrent]

I agree

[coarse blaze]

They don't seem to plan on making the drinking/eating lock go away.

[random stump]

i like that my animal can turn its head to the side and being an herbivore its eyes face directly behind it but i still shouldnt be able to look behind me
and also that magy is gonna be viable
and also that anky isnt gonna be viable
the isle moment

you could let herbivores have 360 vision but its blurry beyond a certain point

whereas carnivores dont get that but its full definition infront of them

[dusky surge]

hey, if cera can be viable, magy can be too

[random stump]

are they going to bandaid magy like they did cerato and just make it swim faster then allo and hope the allo player is too lazy to use the tracking system

[dusky surge]

cerato got TONS of stuff to make sure it's viable

bleed res, damage res, swim speed, fracture res, great stam, high bitespeed, bacterial bite, so on, so forth

if they can do it for cera, they can do it for magy

[distant torrent]

I find that especially absurd for smaller, far weaker playables especially with the animation lock when you stop eating. I get it for larger playables (still not the animation lock), but smaller playables need more love than that

the severe lack of love given to them is the exact reason why they’re the least played

[dusky surge]

doesn't help that herbis across the board have either been nerfed or powercrept in U6.5

hell, even stego is starting to fall behind (as much as people would hate to believe it)

next update needs a significant buff to herbivores across the board to reinstate their population

stego can stay as-is because people will blow a casket if stego is buffed before being banished to unofficials for the forseeable future

[distant torrent]

it still rattles my brain why they kept nerfing herbis so much

[dusky surge]

because carni players exist

U6 teno wasn't even a problem at all, yet it got hit with a nerf

like, U6 pachy I understand getting a nerf, that was sickeningly broken

[mighty tree]

didnt teno receive attack nerfs pretty much every update?

[dusky surge]

basically, yes

teno is essentially beaten repeatedly every patch

once upon a time, teno's tail slam (a much harder and more skillful move to hit, my I add) did as much damage as carno's ram

now teno does barely a fraction of that damage with its tailslam

[distant torrent]

I want that damage back

either that or give the tail slam a fracture

[dusky surge]

teno seriously consistently gets the short end of the stick

its actually upsetting how badly the game treats it

[distant torrent]

it’s very upsetting

[dusky surge]

it USED to be a skill-based herbivore that was always a threat to approach, but an extremely satisfying fight between two skilled parties. Now, it's a skilled animal, but that skill isn't nearly as rewarded as carno chargespam or cerato vomitlock

So there's really never a reason to pick teno, because it's a skilled animal without any of the payoff of being so competent

i legitimately miss old teno, because it was played for power, but wasn't handed that power easily

it required you to understand its kit to utilise it efficiently

[distant torrent]

I honestly feel like a competent cerato can easily 1v1 a teno now with the new vomit. a cera facetanking my teno a while ago left me with half health. half health. it just kept biting my ass without even trying to escape my kicks. if it utilized the vomit and just stayed away until the vomit timer was done each time, it would’ve either been a very close fight or a complete loss

it’s just so sad

toppled with teno’s water drain, a vomit is brutal

[dusky surge]

teno should, in all honesty, beat a cerato to death

i do not care if it "makes hunts too hard", stop hunting the brawler herbivore

as the scavenger

[distant torrent]

the scavenger trying to hunt a brawler herbivore heavier than it then complaining when they die and can’t hunt it

[dusky surge]

i really hope diablo doesn't just become "teno but viable" and teno is able to establish its own niche

because from what i've seen so far, why play teno when diablo exists

[distant torrent]

I was planning to main diablo because I was thinking it’d survive better against carno and cera than the current pitiful teno

[dusky surge]

one can hope

i genuinely want a herbivore to enjoy

i legit can't stand any herbi but dryo atm, it's not worth the hours when you are at the mercy of most of the playerbase atm

[halcyon elk]

The issue is that tenos will genuinely go out of their way to hunt ceras.

[distant torrent]

the only playables I can stomach to touch right now are ptera, troodon because of the fast growth and it’s a good baby killer, and dryo, but dryo is borderline because of those silent carnos

[dusky surge]

i mean... legit can't understand how ceras die to that

if the teno vomits even once, they're screwed in terms of keeping pace

stamina: gone

[halcyon elk]

Here the thing. Teno go in pairs.

If not herds.

[dusky surge]

and carnos go in trios or more, which obliterate basically all tenos they see

thanks to their nuke charge

[distant torrent]

not a thing tenos can do if they use all of their stamina chasing down a cera

[dusky surge]

i would much rather face a group of tenos than a group of carnos as a lone cera

all of the teno's best attacks are facing their behind

[distant torrent]

yup. just start turning the other way if they try to get in front of you and turn their ass towards you

[halcyon elk]

@full violet there are reasons as to why deino is susceptible to issues like that. It's so they stay in the water

The 8 ton alligator should not be waddling 7 miles out to grab a corpse

[dusky surge]

exactly

[halcyon elk]

My thinking is that teno should in herds be hard to hunt even for bands of carno.

[full violet]

but they can't stay in water to get full diet

[halcyon elk]

They can...by just waiting for something to get a drink.

There's a reason why deino hunger drain is so slow.

[full violet]

except that there are a few places were u can drink safely

[distant torrent]

that’s unfortunately not very possible when no one plays teno for a decent herd to be formed because the playable currently sucks

[dusky surge]

deinosuchus/beipi has organs and bones. Organs and bones provide all nutrients. you now have access to all nutrients as a deino in the water

[dusky surge]

teno needs to be viable enough solo to be worth playing to the point we see large groups forming

[halcyon elk]

Yea there are. But it's not like everyone frequents them.

[dusky surge]

teno lacks that solo viability that would make it more of an attractive playable

[halcyon elk]

True, though in my eyes as a teno you should try to avoid combat as much as possible solo. Like maybe it can handle a carno or a cera. But several it should stick to the tree line.

[full violet]

but many do, and waiting for 2 hours for some to come drink at the exact spot to where u are camping isn't very fun

[halcyon elk]

Then don't play as the camping playable then.

[dusky surge]

then don't play deino, because that's literally what deino is supposed to do

it's a big glorified gator

[full violet]

and 2 hours is being generous

[dusky surge]

a gator waits in one spot for something to rock up, that's literally all it does

[halcyon elk]

Deino is quite literally a gigantic gator. It's its THING to wait in a spot.

[dusky surge]

deino isn't designed to accommodate for impatient players

i would know, i'm far too impatient to play it

[halcyon elk]

True. I'd likely be on it more if the sights to see were better.

[distant torrent]

the only reason I play deino is to kill other deinos simply because there are way too many

[dusky surge]

lmao fair

god i want to see them starve and suffer so bad, i might actually enjoy them if they were hard

i cant stand a slow, boring, easy playable

[halcyon elk]

Cuz my patience is waning when it just boring scenery.

[distant torrent]

temporarily remove elite fish and cannibalism and remove their ability to catch school fish

[halcyon elk]

Imo keep the school fish.

Gators go for fish sometimes to feed themselves a bit.

[distant torrent]

then the food % gained needs to be nonexistent for larger deinos because one little fish gives way too much lol

[full violet]

yea at least make it easier for them to see, at night (which are too long btw) you can't see anything. good luck ambushing other ppl

[distant torrent]

it doesn’t mix well with how common the school fish are

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/im-sorry-thats-a-new-one-frieza-dragon-ball-z-abridged-well-this-is-new-what-gif-20307028

I didn't mean that

[dusky surge]

you have literally got water sense lol

[halcyon elk]

I meant the SCENERY being better. As in the area where I'm playing looks more pretty. @full violet

Then I'd be willing to wait longer. I honestly find it stupidly easy to find things on the side of a river, And I've ambushed several people, it ain't thay hard.

[full violet]

only detect if drinking or in water, need to be able to see them before they hit the water imo. doesn't take them long enough to drink so they often get away before u catch them

[halcyon elk]

Just...look above the surface?

Without surfacing.

[full violet]

i know thx

[halcyon elk]

Be vigilant and position yourself to where you think they're going to drink, it can be easy to grab them then.

[dusky surge]

(or just don't play deino because there's too many and they're SUPER sedimentary and really unfitting for people who like action)

[halcyon elk]

True, it does fit my pace though. I ain't a murderhobo who's hobbies include, murder, murder, and respawing to do one and two again. I'm more for the survival aspect. Which why I like dinosaurs that run, or can defend themselves well if played right

Ie: teno(especially in herds if you know what your doing), galli(flocks are even better), stego, deino, and likely the upcoming playable diablo.

[distant torrent]

people who play deinos for action are honestly the funniest to watch lol I was so amused when a full grown deino kept trying to desperately snatch my dryo at spine wall

[dusky surge]

i play troodon because i enjoy the vemom goblin playstyle (and it is SHOCKINGLY effective for what it is)

[random stump]

well you see obviously the herbivore is meant to just be a food animal silly
herbivores dont fight back!

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/dbz-abridged-tfs-cell-cell-violently-angry-gif-18642071

[dusky surge]

playable food vs actual character

[random stump]

everything galli sized and smaller that isnt utah is playable food

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/tfs-cell-imperfect-cell-wrong-dbza-gif-22046319

[random stump]

how am i wrong

[halcyon elk]

Because you can survive as them quite easily.

[random stump]

they exist to avoid fights and run away
which means they are food

[random stump]

i never said you cant survive as them i said they are food
they cant fight nothing

[halcyon elk]

Avoid fights and running away are actually survival strategies. Or did you bonk your head exceptionally hard today?

[distant torrent]

give dryos a kick so they can punt babies and anything that might raid its burrow

[halcyon elk]

You don't have to fight in this game.

[random stump]

i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive
i never said they cannot survive

[halcyon elk]

I know, but calling them food its just dumb.

[random stump]

they exist
to be food
they do not fight
they do not do anything like nest or migrate
but run around like a somewhat more complex ai
and die to carnos

[hollow canyon]

it did more

[halcyon elk]

They exist to survive not be food.

[random stump]

survive and do what

[hollow canyon]

actually outright cancel that, at the time Carno charge tickled, it got a buff on some update when it was effectively unusable anyway

[halcyon elk]

Being food is simply a secondary function

[random stump]

being food is the primary function
unless you want to nest so people can spend an extra 10 minutes growing a dino
(or longer if its hypsi which spawns in as an adult)

[halcyon elk]

Idk. Nest? Get to elder(when it's implemented)?

[hollow canyon]

you're thinking about it, the wrong way... when you nest people you effectively get even MORE FOOD into the world

which is awesome

[random stump]

oh yeah
so primary functioon is make food
secondary function is be food
gg ez

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/rogal-dorn-no-warhammer-warhammer40k-robot-gif-17117864

[random stump]

https://tenor.com/view/warhammer-40k-rogaldorn-gif-10829755

[hollow canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/honest-word-its-honest-work-it-aint-much-it-aint-much-but-its-honest-work-gif-13763573

[halcyon elk]

https://tenor.com/view/tts-cease-and-desist-gif-18135041

[random stump]

food animals.

[hollow canyon]

ok, let's finish with this

this isn't what this channel is for

[random stump]

the only herbivore that defends itself in any real way is stego and its so damn strong it only dies to boredom

[halcyon elk]

Let's just agree to disagree and move on since clearly neither of us are budging on this

[random stump]

yes

[hollow canyon]

it depends on the patch, there were points when Tenonto and especially Pachy, were quite the killing machines

Pachy was the second best animal for murder on 6.0

[random stump]

oh yeah they WERE good

emphasis on the WERE

[hollow canyon]

yea things change

Omni was absolute doodoo on U4

it was a god on U5 though

things just change

[tight cove]

I like how this recent change to cerato made hunting stegos easier than it ever was before, all you need is 2 ceras & no lag 😂

[distant torrent]

try not to make vomit an overly effective hunting ability challenge (impossible)

[torn egret]

They removed the vomit lock at least. But let’s be honest. If bile is removed, cera can’t touch stego with its current kit. And I don’t think 2 cera or more can stack their bacteria (for vomiting)
But the only time I’ve had to kill stegos has been when they body guard. (Or start aggressively killing hatchlings).
The Cera would be kinda underwhelming otherwise imo

[latent bay]

Cera would probably be complete fodder otherwise, vomit, charge bite and bleed res are about the only things it has going for it

It has super underwhelming stats, so with only 2 or god forbid one of its gimmicks, it'd grt rolled by everything but omni and anything below 300kgs

But everything rolls omni and anything 300kgs

This is without body buff, but body buff is horribly circumstantial so it's still pretty iffy

[thin mantle]

The idea that Cerato has underwhelming base stats is just funny to me

[latent bay]

wdym? 1300 weight and 150 bite is the lowest of the mid tiers

not saying it shouldn't be that way, but it's still by all means underwhelming

[golden coral]

I don't think cera is a mid tier, larger end of small tier seems more accurate

[latent bay]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's fair but at least or the time being i consider Ceratosaurus the smallest mid tier, considering 1300 kilos is 3 omnis worth pretty much

[thin mantle]

Cerato has the highest primary bite attack dps of any animal bar deino, it embarrasses Carno in that regard and if you’re not constantly carrying around an Omni, small Cerato, or Galli body for the permanent double HP you’re not playing Cerato right

So not only does Cerato effectively have the highest stats of all the “mids” in the game, it has vomit to stack on top of that

[hasty coyote]

I thought dragging the body around stops the buff for a while?

Purely for that reason

[thin mantle]

No just drop it and it comes back

It’s not active while carrying

But if you ever get attacked just drop the body and go to town

[hasty coyote]

I could have sworn I heard it disables it for a while afterwards too. Maybe I heard wrong or it bugged.

[latent bay]

that's not a base stat

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t have to be

[latent bay]

Ceratosaurus' body buff isn't a base stat, it's a temporary amplification

i very, VERY obviously specified BASE stats

[thin mantle]

Ok, body buff can’t be ignored when it effective doubles cerato’s HP and is a portable buff

The discussion of cerato’s base stats is pointless if we ignore that

[hasty coyote]

It would be like saying pachy is literal fodder without considering knockdowns and fractures (though it does still have bad matchups imo)

[latent bay]

no, no it cannot, however you are ignoring the concept of base stats entirely. I specify base stats, i expect you to only talk about base stats

did i ever say Ceratosaurus was fodder WITH gimmicks? no, no i didnt

but if you remove its gimmicks, such as body buff (which i forgot to specify at the time of mentioning its gimmicks VS its base stats, i do apologise), then Ceratosaurus would be an extremely underwhelming playable

and with the lowest speed of the carnivores, barring the 8 tonne crocodile in the river and the bird, then i dare say Ceratosaurus would be pushed into unplayability without its gimmicks

[hasty coyote]

I’m not saying you said cera is fodder without gimmicks, I’m saying pachy without them is. Which is why we can’t just rely on base stats. We have to take into account gimmicks that allow the Dino to overcome its weaknesses or cause those weaknesses because it would be op without them.

[latent bay]

rapdex

rapdex i was talking to fluff

i specifically replied to and pinged the komodo dragon with the gun in its mouth and not the sophisticated minmi

[latent bay]

i specified that if gimmicks were REMOVED, Ceratosaurus would fall into unplayability. I never fully ignored the gimmicks and abilities Ceratosaurus holds, Ceratosaurus is an incredibly well-oiled machine when all of its abilities work in-tandem with one another, however if one or all of Ceratosaurus' gimmicks were to be removed, not ignored, removed, then the horned lizard would fall into unplayability

[hasty coyote]

I assumed the second comment was directed at me because it used the same wording I used. “Did I say cera was fodder…” seemed directed at “pachy is literal fodder” my bad then.

[latent bay]

you're fine

i just didnt like being misunderstood there... twice

[thin mantle]

Fair enough then, it’s just an odd point to make from my POV when Cerato never effectively has 1300 hp, so I probably mistook it for an argument about cerato’s relative strength

[latent bay]

nonononono not at all

i personally advocate for Ceratosaurus to be stronger away from bodies, as you could probably find by searching my name in the feedback channels, but cerato's relative strength, specifically near bodies, is fine.

[thin mantle]

Generally I think we agree on that, I'd definitely prefer cerato to not be such a prolific hunter even disregarding vomit and how strong it is, because there's honestly nothing keeping cerato from using bodybuff as a mobile 2x HP amp for hunts unfortunately :p

[tall bronze]

Mobile?

[thin mantle]

But then you get the scenario where if you disable buff when a body has been grabbed, you can just grab the body to disable the buff to deny the cerato defensive benefits

[thin mantle]

You get max DR from bodies up to the size of a galli or larger, those can be carried and ran with

When dropped the DR gets reapplied

[tall bronze]

Hmm. From how it sounds, that seems kinda eh as a problem to me since it can't attack when carrying, and by the time it drops it, you could've already ran. 😮

[latent bay]

a shame imo. I want cera to not bank on BB constantly

[thin mantle]

Not if you're a teno pachy or stego, or anything the same speed or slower, of which there will be many more added to the roster as time goes on

[tall bronze]

Like it is a little weird, but is it actually a really big problem right now? 😮 I haven't played in a hot minute because Spiro

Ah. That sounds more like a "why is Cerato not actually slow/so good at running for ages" problem, which I hate

[thin mantle]

It lets you tank up to 3 bodyshots from a stego, you can comfortably duo an adult stego on cerato regardless of tactics used from the stego to prevent

[tall bronze]

Seems a w e e bit much

[thin mantle]

The issue is that the more CC heavy larger animals become (which if dondi is to be taken literally is basically every theropod) then cerato gets deleted by anything slightly larger than it...

But not reducing it's speed leads to it being an absurdly effective predator

It just doesnt' work either way

[tall bronze]

Prolly wouldn't be as bad though if bacteria application actually cared about weight why doesn't it

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's hilarious

The fact that it takes a universal 5 bites for everything is so stupid

[tall bronze]

Bite Rex 5 times, vomits In all seriousness, I'm sure it's gonna get looked at before that kinda stuff happens

hopefully

[thin mantle]

But it still becomes a relevant issue around it's own size and slightly larger regardless of either model....

[latent bay]

what if

hear me out

instead of applying bacteria off a weight formula

make it apply off a damage formula

[thin mantle]

Well it's rex, and dondi won't take "rex being disrespected" so maybe it'll become a problem when an animal the devs care about gets effected

[tall bronze]

As much as some have hated this idea, perhaps (PERHAPS) replace it's fracture resistance which is too much with a bit of stun resistance?

[latent bay]

making it damage based would still mean Ceratosaurus can use vomit as currently when full adult, but anything lower is painful to use vomit with

[thin mantle]

Neither really work, it doesn't need either

[tall bronze]

That doesn't really fix the issue of adult Ceratos just needing to bite anything 5 times no matter the size to make em vomit though 😮

[thin mantle]

It shouldn't have stun resistance because a lot of animals rely on stuns to have viable combative engagements, same with fractures

[thin mantle]

I'd need to see what the calc is relative to the cerato to make them vomit

Because the concept is a bit vague

[tall bronze]

A weight threshold seems like it'd be a bit better. Could maybe give it a threshold of sorts so that most of the time, stuff around your size is usually 5 bites, but after a certain size of prey is passed, that's where it noticeably begins to increase.

Maybe 😮

Could also just make higher weights just outright ignore it, like Rex for example.

[thin mantle]

Or do what fractures do and have bacteria apply as a hidden damage value that needs to meet the targets weight to make them vomit

[tall bronze]

So you'd end up with a maximum size you could realistically make vomit, one you could theoretically make vomit, and then anything past that is just nope

[tall bronze]

Isn't that basically the same thing

[thin mantle]

Yeah I'm just giving it more specifics

Because the way it was described made it sound like "it takes 5 bites if you're within X-Y weight range"

Instead of just "you deal 300 vomit damage per bite, you need to match the targets HP in vomit damage to apply the debuff"

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/good-morning-gif-26453830

[latent bay]

no like

currently a cera can 5 bite vomit everything

[thin mantle]

Also good to see ya dock :)

[latent bay]

but with my idea, a cera dealing 150 damage still 5 vomits things, but a cera dealing 50 damage would 15 vomit things (note numbers are rough and should be changed to fit balancin)

well not mine, @placid bronze 's idea but still

[tight cove]

so if you drag or carry a body then drop it the buff still activates? i didn't know that, thats crazy 💀

[thin mantle]

Yup xD
Cerato has the 3rd highest effective health pool in the roster.

https://tenor.com/view/the-more-you-know-gif-26317296

[tight cove]

https://tenor.com/view/think-smart-gif-22411928

im finna use this in combat now

[thin mantle]

Enjoy it before it gets removed!

(which it probably won't but definitely should)

[golden coral]

Im not sure how that would work, unless you're thinking of locationals then for damage variation?

[latent bay]

no, a cerato wit a bsd of 50, which is i think a 33% grown cera, would take triple the amount of bites to make smth vomit because it has a third of the bsd a full ad cera has

[golden coral]

Okay. But that would not solve the adult ceras lack of weight scaling for vomit, so something else would also be needed to help there

[latent bay]

is it a problem that a playable's special ability is effective?

[golden coral]

No. It is, however, a problem that smaller things die before they can be vomited, and larger things can be vomited far too easily. Unless it's reasonable that a cera can vomit a rex or trike in five bites only? The small/"mid" tier corspe bully and scavenger?

[latent bay]

you got me there

your argument is valid

however

to that i say troodon venom being applied in 3 pounces to everything ever in the history of ever

could infectious diseases through bacteria festered in something's mouth not fall under the same principle as a venomous bite?

[golden coral]

Good thing I think troodon venom also very much needs to scale, though you could make the argument that even after the target is envenomated, the troodons need to still get in a lot and do damage/bleed, which if it wasn't for well, how bad stego is, stego would be fine (in general, if you can apply pressure to the troodon, or just run away, they struggle more or less (or if we just had trample and stuff perhaps). Whereas ceratos can still sort of "vomit lock", if not like before, so they have a much more clear opening.

But it's less so, is it reasonable that cera can do what it does? Is it equally reasonable that a troodon pack will be able to hit a trike or rex three times and now the apex critter is envenomated? I'd argue that it's not, in either case

[latent bay]

honestly

fair enough

i really want cerato's vomit to stay the way it is currently VS mids, even higher end mids like Allosaurus (i really dont want cera to have an overwhelmingly bad match VS Allosaurus), but it scaling VS the psuedo apexes and apexes is fine by me tbh

[placid bronze]

Would it not make more sense for the character being infected to take longer for the effects to set in, however, the amount of bites can still be relatively low?

[golden coral]

Problem is, it doesn't matter, the issue with both playables is vs targets that can't apply pressure or run away

[golden coral]

Eh, I don't think cera is meant to match allo at all honestly. I'm pretty sure allo is meant to just destroy a cera if it gets its hands (literally, if it gets the grapple) on it

[placid bronze]

Doesnt such a thing have more to do with those affected individuals rather than the individuals who are infecting

[latent bay]

...they literally coexist within the same formation yet Ceratosaurus specimens (while outcompeted due to the huge abundance of Torvosaurus, Saurophaganax and Allosaurus) were still in existence and ceratosaurids - > abelisaurids moment and ended up thriving through even the cretaceous. Ceratosaurus and Allosaurus should be anything but a stomp if stayin true to the real animals in the slightest

[golden coral]

I don't think irl matters that much when it comes to the game

So while that may have been true irl, in the game, cera is probably not designed for that, and allo from the concept seems to be the one that will win that matchup

I don't think even carno is going to match allo, despite being bigger and more powerful compared to cera

[placid bronze]

Doesnt that mean allo just utterly stomps it with nothing cerato can do

cause cera is slow and cant take a hit nor deal one

[keen plover]

Allo is 2.8 - 3.1t. There's next to no chance for cera to fight back

[golden coral]

Well, most likely it means cera will escape, somehow

[distant torrent]

if cera has a problem with escaping allo, then teno certainly will too so it’s not a species specific issue

[placid bronze]

Teno is faster though. I can only imagine they make allo run slower than cera, but then that runs into issues with larger things

[latent bay]

fine then. On game perspective, Ceratosaurus is slow, very slow for a carnivore that isnt a lumbering semi aquatic reptile, Allosaurus has an ambush that can catch gallimimus off-guard. if ceratosaurus cannot defend and cannot run

there is a problem

[distant torrent]

teno isn’t faster by much. it’s such a small amount it really doesn’t even matter at all

[latent bay]

teno is like pathetically faster, i think its unironically by .1 km/h

[placid bronze]

I mean, even so. If allo is faster than even Teno, then it'd be op, cause its too fast

[latent bay]

yes

yes exactly

[golden coral]

I agree. Though some would argue hiding is a valid option. But yes, cera needs to be able to run or fight most likely. How to fix that, I don't really know, but it seems more likely cera will be on the flight end than the fight end. And well, speculation is that stego might just run from rex, or even just outstam. Could apply the same to cera vs allo if so, just make it so cera can outrun/outstam, given enough of a headstart. Not a method I'm a fan of, but it does work at least.

[distant torrent]

allo might have absolutely dogwater stam and stam regeneration and an incredibly slow trot so it sticks to ambushing. I feel like that’d help teno and cera, so it can only catch them via actually ambushing

[keen plover]

That's a bad setup for Allo

[placid bronze]

I reckon the best way to do this is to give Allo ambush speed tied to its grapple. And any other time Allo would be reasonably slow.

[latent bay]

if your only defense against smth is to not be spotted then

that's kinda bad because that nukes player interaction

i dont want to be forced to wuss out of a confrontation because my playable isnt equipped to fight OR run

games are meant to be at least somewhat enjoyable, even if they're a sandbox dinosaur survival horror

[placid bronze]

Its like what Dryos have to deal with. They cant run, hide, nor fight back. And they just... are a myth right now
They dont exist

[distant torrent]

dryo needs l o v e. it’s so disappointing it hasn’t gotten it yet. it was going to get godly nightvision, but you can see what happened to that

[golden coral]

I agree, but never the less, hiding could be an option, for those playables that can do it. But outlasting the allo might be another option as well.

[golden coral]

Dryos can hide quite well, and run quite well too, to be honest

[latent bay]

so carno currently

nuclear 1 shot small game and nuclear hit game it shouldnt be facing (in carno's case, teno. in allo's case, para)

we all know how current carno works

[golden coral]

It's just, people just want to kill stuff, so no dryos

[latent bay]

outlasting Allosaurus? that's not happening considering cera is less than half allo's weight just about

[golden coral]

Well, allos do hunt paras, so that's apparently fine

[placid bronze]

Not according to what i've both heard and seen from everyone. Carnos utterly destroy dryo, and there isnt anything it can do about it. Thats why they arent played

[golden coral]

And carno, it depends on what you think, on if it should fight tenos or not

[latent bay]

it's ridiculous. hilariously so

[golden coral]

Outlasting in terms of running stamina, not sure how that relates to weight?

[keen plover]

That's wrong. Omni is the biggest problem for dryo. Carno is barely a threat

[golden coral]

You can juke carnos, disappear into forest, carno won't find you unless you made yourself bright orange :p

[placid bronze]

They ment outlast it in a fight??

[latent bay]

outlasting could refer to enduring a confrontation or a chase, i unfortunately couldnt tell you were referring to a chase

[placid bronze]

Carnos are a big threat still. But yeah, omnis are actually the bigger threat, you're fight

[golden coral]

Dryos are very sneaky, and their run turn and stamina is okay, at least vs carno, plus the "dodge" if you need it, though I find that more useful vs omnis

[golden coral]

Ah, well, now it's cleared up! Apologies for being unclear

[distant torrent]

they only destroy dryo when the audio decides carno weighs less than a feather and can’t be heard until you hear the fatal ram activation

[golden coral]

Be that as it may, allos hunt paras, from concept and what devs have said

[placid bronze]

Perhaps, all i know ultimately is that dryo needs help, and if cerato is forced to do the same thing dryo does rn with allo, then cerato would also need help

[latent bay]

which is stuff allo shouldnt be after, it's like saying Carnotaurus would make reasonable sense brawling it out with Maiasaura

[golden coral]

Funnily enough, I had that discussion with someone a day or two ago :D

Someone who wanted carnos in packs to hunt maias

So allos can surely hunt para in packs too

[keen plover]

I think the best setup is allo being slower than Cera. Around 40km/h and give it a really fast acceleration. Maybe its mechanic lets it run 2 - 3 km/h faster at the start of a run, for a few seconds. Other than that, Cera is faster

[latent bay]

i, personally, dont much care if the devs see it reasonable for Allosaurus to be brawling wit Parasaurolophus. I dont. This is the same development team who said Magyarosaurus made perfect sense being faster than the topic of discussion rn and that Magyarosaurus made sense to be poisonous

[placid bronze]

They could yeah, but all the same, Para needs to be far more than a deer as Kissen put it

[keen plover]

So if it's outside of an ambush, Cera can run from allo

[golden coral]

It doesn't need to... if it works to make para a deer, it works

Much as I want stego to be a proper stego, but well, here we are xD

[placid bronze]

Thats like what i've thought about before.
I figured that Allo would only be able to grapple during ambush speed, which would be unique to it.

[latent bay]

THIS

is the good ending right here

[latent bay]

ig staying true to the animal doesnt matter anymore

[golden coral]

It never did... xD

[latent bay]

time to pedal my Grimlock Tyrannosaurus suggestion

[placid bronze]

I mean, it doesnt work that well. Neither biologically nor fessibly.
Seeing a huge ass hadrosaur get pulled to the ground by things half its size and more than half its weight is silly to me

[latent bay]

https://tenor.com/view/grimlock-fire-dragon-gif-9315168

[keen plover]

I think it should be versatile like Omni's pounce / pin.

Like you can do it while running and standing

[golden coral]

Just as silly as a stego using it's tail like a scorpion, and dying to omnis/troodon, just as silly as a carno charging things with it's face, just as silly as omnis and troodons pouncing in the first place, and just as silly as the ptera running takeoff. And so on

[keen plover]

not the speed but the grapple itself

[placid bronze]

I think it should be different depending on what you do, if you are standing its a different effect and animation than when ambushing

[latent bay]

is this applicable to the other dinosaur survivals?

[golden coral]

Much as I'll agree para should be quite capable, it doesn't matter that much if the devs think otherwise

[placid bronze]

yes

Non of those things should be how they are

[golden coral]

Hm? Not sure how you mean? BoB is... not at all realistic, and PoT is, maybe better, maybe worse? Not sure honestly

But like, in the end, most of the playables are only the irl critter in name and basic looks/body and all that

[placid bronze]

I dont see how its worth bringing up other games in a discussion about this game

[latent bay]

yes. literally yes. Carnotaurus is MAYBE the only exception, purely considering its niche, but even then it actively exploding its face is super weirdand i, personally, do not like it

[golden coral]

Function wise, they do what the devs want for the game and balance they want

No matter how silly it might seem at times

[placid bronze]

That is reasonable

Though it can still be discussed what things should be filling the roles the devs want filled

[golden coral]

Trust you me, being a stego main, I am not at all happy with their current interpretation of how a stego should function xD

[placid bronze]

Cause you wouldnt reasonably want a Utah to fill the role a rex would be better suited to fill

[latent bay]

no i mean my pointis:

if the isle is safe from being criticised about its dinosaurs not being true to the dinosaurs, does that mean PoT spino being a better brawler than PoT rex is ok?

[golden coral]

I didn't say, or mean, that it's safe from criticism. I am merely saying that game balance, and dev vision, take precedence over realism

So saying "but irl" or "this is silly" is not a very useful argument

It's stupid that stego uses it's tail like a scorpion, but well, if it makes stego function like the devs want, that's what goes

[placid bronze]

Something that is certainly true
I remind you that one part of their vision includes immersion.
In order to be immersed, the things happening need to be visually justifiable

[golden coral]

Also yes, if the PoT devs want their spino to do that, they do. I don't think they're bound to apply realism more than they want to

[placid bronze]

Otherwise it will make no sense, and reduce immersion

[golden coral]

Most things are immersive enough

[latent bay]

realism =/= accuracy. I'm not trying to say i want Tyrannosaurus with lips and appropriate fat (which are things i think would be nice but i digress), but what im saying is that, take a T. rex example, does it make sense to have T. rex be a pursuit speedster focusing on bleed than a big brawler that doesnt care abt armor?

[placid bronze]

Most things isnt good enough in this case. If the goal is for the game itself to be immersive, then it has to be completely immersive

[golden coral]

No, it doesnt, but I do think thats also a rather specific example

Allo being able to grapple paras isnt unreasonable, and wouldn't neccesarily look bad

[placid bronze]

I agree with his application of it. Roles should be filled by characters that would make sense to fill that role

[golden coral]

Same with stego tail jabs, it's not ideal, but it doesnt look terrible or not immersive

[placid bronze]

This is true. What is unreasonable is for para to be insentivized to run from the allos, rather than defend itself

[golden coral]

It works, and is immersive enough, at least for most it seems, even if it is stupid if we consider how stego actually functioned

[latent bay]

it definitely would depending on how big parasaurolophus ends up being

if they use cyrtocristatus (which they wont because Shantungosaurus exists, but if they did) the Allosaurus would look like an anime MC fighting with that

[golden coral]

That is most likely a game balance design thing

Since we have maia, and more importantly, shant

And I imagine they want those three to be somewhat different in their responses to predators

[placid bronze]

Maia is quite easily differentiated

Shant is the more tricky one, but not without its methods

[golden coral]

And since we have shant, we're not getting the massively powerful para, hence it does make game sense to have para be the runner, to the shants outright "I am massive" and maias potential fighting capability

[distant torrent]

I’m pretty sure the in game lore has it that dinos are created on their own and not related to actual extinct dinos. they could create dinos to do basically whatever they want or look however they want lol

[golden coral]

Nah, that'd be the omnis xD

Speaking of, omnis will probably shred paras

[latent bay]

then make Maiasaura the run-away hadrosaur, make Parasaurolophus the flexible hadrosaur, and make Shantungosaurus the Dark Souls boss

flipping maia and para around would be far better, and make far more sense. Imo neither should be runaways but it's better than para, a 4-13 tonne hadrosaur depending on the species, being the runaway

[placid bronze]

Maia is far smaller than the other two characters however.
It being more likely a mid tier, para a pseudo apex, and shant a full apex
Maia being more focused on stunning and shoulder bashes, while relying on its bulk
Para being more focused on juking and flanking, while relying on its bulk
And Shant being more focused on crushing, while relying on its bulk

[golden coral]

This seems pretty much how I imagine it will go

But then you still have the idea of para being evasive, rather than a fighter, meaning it would prefer to not fight the allos

[placid bronze]

No no no. Evasive doesnt mean fleeing.
Para can be nimble enough to easily space attacks before punishing

[golden coral]

Which is also, probably, how the devs meant it with that one comment. Less that para cant fight an allo, more that why would you risk it to see if it's a pack that can and possibly will kill you

[latent bay]

literally this

just make sure instead of regular combat music, fighting a shant as anything but rex or sauropods barring magy triggers Malenia blade of Miquella's boss theme

[golden coral]

Just wait until omnis kill shant as well!

[latent bay]

Erik

Erik shut the hell up

[placid bronze]

If thats the case, then it shouldnt have been compared to a whole deer

[golden coral]

Which would work, but less so vs a pack :D

[golden coral]

What? Do you think I am wrong? :p

[keen plover]

Para should roll a solo allo. Even put up a fight against a pair. But trios and more is where it becomes HARD

[latent bay]

no im saying i dont want you to be right

[placid bronze]

Vs a pack, certainly, though that isnt something that needs to be showcased in the concept lol (just my personal gripe with it)

[latent bay]

literally this

again

[golden coral]

Fair enough!

[placid bronze]

Yes

[keen plover]

I mean, it would be stupid for a 7t (minimum) animal to lose to a 2.8t one

[tight cove]

“Why would a para fight a predator of that size?” 🤓

[golden coral]

Well, I don't think a solo allo will take on a para, but a pack, most likely

Same, possibly, with carno vs maia

[keen plover]

How it should be 🙂

[latent bay]

i thought walkeri had a 4t minimum and tubicen had a 7t minimum

[placid bronze]

In allos concept its racking the side of a para with no indicator its with a group

[latent bay]

could you send me any estimates you may have, bird? tryna find sizes is tough when the 2 most reliable discord servers i know of that i am a part of are hard as hell to find up to date estimates on

[keen plover]

ah I just base it off novas chart

[golden coral]

I don't recall right now, but I thought one of the concepts had multiple allos?

[keen plover]

Para's one

[placid bronze]

That one is in paras concept

[keen plover]

3 allos were hunting a lone para

[golden coral]

I guess that's how it might go then

[latent bay]

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit i thought you mentioned irl allo size, could you not send me that or is that also the calc from Nova?

[latent bay]

it was literally a back alley prison shanking

[placid bronze]

It doesnt need to be showcased lol. It cant be a good thing that para being mugged is so much of a big thing for it that it has to be in the concept art

[keen plover]

Nova's one again, yeah. Also just the legacy allo size. I'm not much of a paleo guy outside of checking here and there in this discord 💀

[placid bronze]

Dont trust this discord for paleo facts lmao

[keen plover]

Some people are fine imo. #paleotalk is ok

[latent bay]

well then

im trying to weave my way into every discord server with paleontologists in it for up-to-date info. my bad there, though you knew a place or 2 i could check out

[placid bronze]

I still dont trust it. I saw someone arguing for 20 tonne spino and i lost all faith instantly

[golden coral]

8T stego, would be nice xD

[golden coral]

Maybe they're just trying to emphasize that para is a flighty animal that prefers to not engage in fighting if it doesn't have to?

[latent bay]

that's cap, chief i think you're lying to me

[golden coral]

To be fair, we should think in more survival terms, so there is some sense to it

[placid bronze]

I mean, they did that well enough when it ran from Giga. But it would be rather obvious that being ganked by 3 carnivores is gonna kill you anyway i reckon

[latent bay]

not just ganked

broski was getting JUMPED im talking PRISON SHANKED like BACK ALLEY MUGGING genuinely BLACK MARKET ORGAN SELLING GIG

[placid bronze]

I reckon it'd be better to replace that part of the art with para kicking a Alberto in the face or something. Just an indicator that its not gonna be fodder

[tight cove]

I can’t imagine growing a para for like 4 or 5 hours just to get solo’d by an allo ☠️

[dusky surge]

i still don't understand why people are so offended by magy being "bad tasting" when ceratosaurus literally got the magy treatment, by giving it a sceptic bite and a bunch of buffs to make animals not want to fight it

[tall bronze]

Usual argument I see is "they'll still kill it for sport" which I don't entirely agree with since

• it's already been implied to be nasty to fight (yet people ALWAYS ignore this for some reason)
• bad taste could be anything, potentially being just biting it affecting you
• by the time Gateway and migrations come, killing a Magy for sport as something like Allo for example could end up meaning you gotta go FAAAR out of your element to kill it, and likely die in the process.

Magy hate 90% of the time is just people wanting to be mad.

[dusky surge]

i ADORE the idea of it causing a sceptic effect akin to cerato when bitten

and certain animals can improvise by using non-bite attacks to try and kill it better

and in the case of cera, it doesn't care

[tall bronze]

And with the new vomit state changes, wasting time and effort just to kill something that, should you eat it, can screw you over with no more nutritional gain + chance to vomit when you eat or drink makes it even less favorable to fight.

Imagine killing it for fun and realizing "woops, now I'm stuck with no food in an environment I'm not meant to be in. Oh well." And as for stuff that doesn't have to go out of their element to fight Magy, Magy could prolly just deal with em naturally

[dusky surge]

i also like the idea of magy causing animaks to vomit faster if they have a fuller stomach, opposed to cera's emptier stomach

[latent bay]

idk maybe because the dwarf sauropod having an enlarged poison dart frog niche whilst being faster than allo and being a nasty fighter is a ridiculous concept?

because, well, dwarf sauropod

[dusky surge]

they turned ceratosaurus into a beefy, resilient brawler capable of eating so much rot that it makes other animals puke from merely biting them, yet magy is the odd one lol

[tall bronze]

It being faster than Allo isn't necessarily hard confirmed. One dev wants it, other (the one animating it mind you) said it can't be done, so time will tell.

Personally I don't think it needs to be faster at all

[tall bronze]

Magy is always the magycal exception

🎙️

[dusky surge]

also, exactly, i have no idea where "faster than allo" comes from

because it's never once been confirmed to be so

[latent bay]

Ceratosaurus being a beefy resilient scavenger dosnt look ridiculous though

poison-dart sauropod does

sorry, poison-dart galloping sauropod

[dusky surge]

i think that the concept of a foul-tasting dwarf sauropod is super interesting from the perspective of making a proper ecosystem, as it makes magy the wildcard which evolved some insane method to survive and I think that's cool

[kindred obsidian]

@fiery beacon fortnite?!!

[hollow canyon]

idk how that's a minimum for Para also Allosaurus is heavier than that at 3.1-3.2t

there are multiple instances where smaller predators kill larger prey

even the Nova's chart have Para at something lower iirc

thus Para is some twice the weight of Allo and a bit

[latent bay]

the problem is that isnt what we were arguing for

we were arguing for Parasaurolophus to not get utterly obliterated by Allosaurus, whether it be 1 on 1 or 2 on 1

[hollow canyon]

not my impression from what I read there

[placid bronze]

Thats what i said though, basically

[hollow canyon]

Para should have the higher speed out of the two

it shouldn't actively try to go after Allo in any case though and a single Allo should be a decent enough threat

with a pair being a grave danger

not to mean that the Para is bound to lose that but its chances shouldn't be good against a pair of fully grown Allosaurs

[placid bronze]

Something that throughout the whole conversation was being avocated against

cause para should be fully capable of defending itself against allos

when outnumbered, of course it would be at a disadvantage, thats the point of grouping

but in a 1v1, para should have little to worry about

[hollow canyon]

absolutely not

1v1 Para should be worried and it should be possible for it to die

its best option should be to run away

this is also because IF you make Allo faster

[placid bronze]

Possible yes, i didnt say it should be impossible, i said it should have little to worry about
As such it would still have to keep an eye out

[hollow canyon]

then yes it can be weaker but in that case if a trio of Allos see a Para they will just kill it

if it's faster

then that's more of a challenge

[placid bronze]

Well, yeah, thats true. Being so significantly outnumbered would be a death sentence

[hollow canyon]

but if it IS faster then it can't be stronger than an Allo in an all out brawl

[placid bronze]

You're right

[hollow canyon]

it should fear it so that we don't have the old legacy Para

[placid bronze]

legacy para was fodder what do you mean

[hollow canyon]

which was absurdly fast and literally KoSed Allos whenever it saw some

[hollow canyon]

that's a late change

[placid bronze]

I remember the old op para

[hollow canyon]

before it it was a monster, best animal in the game

[placid bronze]

i remember that

[hollow canyon]

so fast that no apex could catch it and so strong it could kill anything else

Allo was just dead the moment it was seen

[placid bronze]

Like i said during the conversation yesterday

Para should be going for evasive maneuvers and flanking, while relying on its bulk

It shouldnt try face tanking things

[hollow canyon]

thus Para - faster than an Allo, capable of doing some damage but overall having a weak damage output in which case Allo is a danger and a group of those even more so, but in this scenario Para CAN escape even a group

instead of being strong enough to go mike tyson on one Allo relatively easily

and then just having to log out whenever it sees a group

[placid bronze]

You're mistaking that i want para to deal lots of damage

I dont want para mike tysoning things

[hollow canyon]

Idk what you want, what I mean is that it shouldn't be trying to brawl an Allo, it's a bad design

that will go nowhere in the end from the practical point of view

if its strong and fast enough to run away and fight back against Allos doing both successfully it will share the fate of its legacy counterpart and get nerfed down later on

[placid bronze]

It shouldnt be trying to brawl anything, i agree.
Defending yourself and brawling arent completely tied to one another.

Para dealing defencive moves behind it would work for its desire to keep out of harms way

[hollow canyon]

if its just too strong but not fast enough it will die to groups and never touch solo Allos

if its too fast but not too strong it's the best option for it

it can survive, fight a bit but it won't be fodder nor too strong

do you agree that the last option is the most sensible for this animal?

[placid bronze]

So hear me out.
Para would be fast and bulky, but relatively weak head on
The majority of paras damage output is in burst damage via a hinde facing single leg kick that can alternate depending on the direction of the camera.
It would have a alt attack that flails its arms, only useful for small things.
And it would have its super sonic blast

[hollow canyon]

could do, but I don't want to speculate on its attacks, the devs will probably figure that out themselves

[placid bronze]

Simply an example of a method with which to make para deal threatening damage without it being useful for proper brawling

We already know of its flail and sonic blast after all

[gentle vault]

Am I the only one who thinks that Troodon needs to be able to eat more rotten corpses? Because the ai spawns as it is are still abysmal and hunting babies/hatchlings isn't viable when you're a fresh juvie.

[gentle vault]

What I mean is, I've noticed how ridiculously easy it is to get food poisoning as a troo, even if you're somewhat keen on your scent bar. I don't understand why, as a predator, your tolerance to rotten corpses is the lowest out of all the dinosaurs. And wouldn't be such big of an issue if Troodon's ecological niche actually functioned in-game.

A glass cannon pack hunter with debilitating venom, easy grow time, and impeccable night vision. Meant to go after small to medium-sized prey. Easy recipe for a good playable, right? Not as far as I've seen. Troodon is awful by itself, and you need at least 6 other players to make an adequate hunting party, but you're golden if you can somehow get 10. The first thirty minutes of your life involve camping at the same spawn point for a juvie to walk by, hope you can maul it and not lose half your team in the process, get diets, grow a bit, move to a hotspot, hopefully, grow and take your pack somewhere where you can maul bigger things. But this, for something so easy to grow is a hassle. Like I said, there are no bodies you can scavenge from, the ceras already ate or claimed those, you can get food poisoning so easily unless you eat a fresh body that just fell, you can barely find ai anywhere, and trying to kill a juvie by yourself is next to impossible unless the player sucks and doesn't know about alt bite.

Now hatchlings would be fair game, but not enough people on a majority of servers, official and not, actually nest. So no babies means no food options. So baby killers are out of the question.

And the venom. Fix the venom. Troodon doesn't need to be op, that's not how it functions, but the venom hardily works as intended. Your victims can still heal even while inflicted, and all they have to do to kill you is spam alt in every direction, and look at that, your team of 10 is dead and your prey isn't even on the second venom stage. At the very least make venom actually do something. Maybe have it affect stam, health, SOMETHING! Larger dinosaurs, like tenos, can heal faster than the venom can tick away your HP. The pounce animations also get stuck and don't seem to aim properly half the time. The list goes on.

As far as I see it, I don't understand how you're supposed to play troodon if you can hardly feed yourself as a baby, scavenge, or kill anything. You're essentially asking Troodon players to live off air.

So either, scavenging needs to be tweaked, more ai spawns need to be added in, or venom mechanics need to be fixed and alt attacks given stamina drains again.

[slim dragon]

Troodon venom works perfectly, I don't see the problem there. I also don't think different animals have different "resistances" to rotten meat. Either they can eat it, either they can't.

[gentle vault]

That still doesn't address the blaring issue of no ai and feeding an animal intended to feed on smaller things.

[slim dragon]

Idk I haven't had any problems with finding food as a juvie troodon so far

Obviously you have to stay in populated areas because of how bad spiro is, but that's a problem with every playable, not just troodon

[gentle vault]

Finding ai is actually the opposite, you have to go away from populated areas to get a boar or deer to show up. Same as legacy. It seems we have VERY different experiences here.

Hell, what version of the Isle are you playing? Sign me up for that

Playing a Juvie troo on any server, rules, no rules, Official, its brutal. There's next to nothing to eat or kill, no hatchlings, nothing.

[slim dragon]

It's not about finding AI
Just steal food from another dino when they're not looking
It's easier than it sounds

[gentle vault]

Not when every body is guarded by ceras who will bite your head off.

Unless the cera vibe has died already, then maybe not.

[slim dragon]

You can steal food from ceras just like from anything else
It's just a bit harder because of chuffing

[gentle vault]

I still don't like how quickly food becomes inedible to you as a troodon. Having to be extra picky because the body just killed 5 minutes ago is now too rotten to eat makes no sense to me.

It just bugs me when I'm a juvie, as an adult its a bit more manageable because of venom. But the first two full meals as a juvie decide your growth time and stats.

And organs INSTANTLY spoil. Like within a minute.

I killed a juvie galli not too long ago and took out some organs for diet, it spoiled in a minute. a solid minute. Bruh.

[slim dragon]

It's more so a problem with how quickly meat rots rather than a problem with troodon itself

[livid spindle]

A newborn cerato traded his life for an adult stego's vomiting. No one can say who will suffer more, but if cerato insists on doing so, it will be very disgusting for stego. I think the amount of bacteria injected by cerato should depend on the size gap between cerato and the target.

[coarse blaze]

What is stegosaurus's water drain in terms of minutes? Feels awfully generous, not complaining just curious!

[distant torrent]

teno needs stego’s water drain tbh

[golden coral]

Think it might be about 45 min, maybe 60? I think teno is the only one that has a quick water drain, most of the others have a decent one.

Teno is a bit bound to water yes, which to be fair, with current dietary options, isn't that much of a problem, just irritating

[coarse blaze]

Teno is so fast, 45 minutes sounds about right for what I'm waiting with stego

I never realized how nice it was until I played a lot of teno

Not needing water every 20 minutes is nice

[golden coral]

Teno is 30 min or so I think? Most others would have 45 then, I don't think stego is special there

[distant torrent]

you can’t even use the nesting ground in swamp because the water drain is so absurd lol if you nest, you have to be very close to water

[unborn iris]

Yeah, teno is 30, stego is 60. Most dinos are 45.

[golden coral]

Huh, thought stego had the same as the others, but I guess the others speed makes up for the difference

[golden coral]

You can, but you need to go in turns rather often. But I've seen people nest over there "outside" of the dam at that nesting ground, it's doable

[unborn iris]

For whatever reason carno had 60 too, like 2 updates ago. Haven't really checked it since.

[golden coral]

Maybe because it can't run much if it wants to also be capable of fighting or escaping

Well, aside from stam diet these days but before then

[distant torrent]

I wouldn’t even consider it worth it. it would’ve been better to add a good sized pond there

[golden coral]

It would, yes, it'd be much better if the nesting grounds had food and water nearby, maybe a little bit of all diets, so there'd be a good reason to use them, and some competition at that

[distant torrent]

I wonder if that was ever thought of when they did touch ups to the map not long ago where rocks and certain trees were removed and more bushes were added

[keen plover]

@mortal tundra I just think pachy should have fracture resistance. Pachy v Pachy has been lame for the longest

[mortal tundra]

👍

[keen plover]

Being hit once and immediately being fractured is lame. It might be the worst same species fight

also teno can alt attack with a leg fracture

only attack disabled is the kick

Should take a few hits to fracture another pachy imo

[mortal tundra]

Okay, I'll change the text then.

[obtuse ocean]

Sounds off to me, are people getting a "pass" if someone ambushes/suprise someone? Because its lame. If a rex attack another rex its supose to get a pass on fracture cus its same species ?

[dusky surge]

What?

what are you talking about

[obtuse ocean]

What you talking about ?

[dusky surge]

okay so i guess we'll never know lol

[obtuse ocean]

Im talking pachy vs pachy etc

[dusky surge]

how is it a pass

how is a pachy vs pachy remotely comparable to a rex vs rex

[obtuse ocean]

Its an abiity attack, if im omni shouldt i be able to pounce another omni ?

I know its pachy vs pachy, and it is sorta lame. But thats what the pachy does, it fracture.

[dusky surge]

pachy should have resistance to fracture because
A: It needs its leg to even remotely survive
B: It has a bad problem with friendly fire
C: The ability to fall further distances and not be fractured would be EXTREMELY benefitial for the animal

[obtuse ocean]

A: So does everything. B: skill issue. My point is that its still strange to get a pass on same specie with an ability.

[dusky surge]

Pachy benefits a lot more from being fracture resistant than having an easier time fracturing other pachies

[dusky surge]

Ceratos can't make other ceratos puke at all

And they are LITERALLY cannibals

[obtuse ocean]

Thats cus they are immnune, if a pachy runs full speed at another pachy that force needs go somewhere

[dusky surge]

it's still going to be taking blunt force damage and actual raw damage

it's not entirely immune to the attack

multiple rams will still fracture it

[obtuse ocean]

Im fine with that, aslong as it also applies to other but strange if only same specie gets a "pass"

Unless they would have some fracture buffs etc

[dusky surge]

there's no pass though

it's only fracture resist

it still gets stunned, damaged and takes blunt damage

the only change is it takes less stun damage

[obtuse ocean]

Yea,thats fine. Im just saying it would be strange ramming something thats the same size and it would fracture but if you into your own specie its not gonna fracture. If they have fracture resistens its fine.

I just feel "its lame" is not a good arguement.

[slim dragon]

As a general rule of thumb bleeder animals should have some bleed resistance, fracture animals have fracture resistance, venomous animals have venom resistance, and so on... especially with species that fight each other a lot (wich includes pachy, because they're literally shown fighting each other in their concept art)

[dusky surge]

oh yea, troodon is immune to its own venom

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, im fine with that if they do have resistiance to it. Or some kind of buffs.

[keen plover]

1 hit fractures isn't fair imo. Pachy is a pretty thick creature and its gameplay revolves around fractures. It should take more than 1 hit to fracture it

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i downvoted it. But took it away, cus it stood resist . I was thinking more extreme. Like if im allo and ambush another allo, and uses my ability that would cause alot of bleed. But the allo i attacked got zero bleed cus its same specie etc

If allo get that ability i dont know tho, it was an example lol

[dusky surge]

that's not what he was suggesting though

he's not asking for pachy to be immune to fracture

[obtuse ocean]

He said its lame pachy vs pachy, i honestly dont know how fracture works vs another pachy since i dont attack same specie

Does it fracture in 1 hit ?

[keen plover]

Yep

Whoever hits first wins sort of deal

Like no chance of escape or fighting back (unless the pachy player throws the fight)

I'd argue its the worst 1 v 1 in the game

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i get its lame but still he deserved that hit. Since the other didnt move or got caught offguard.

[thin mantle]

And yet it remains a terrible matchup

So perhaps that pachy shouldn't deserve a gauranteed win if it lands that first hit

[obtuse ocean]

Most 1v1 same specie is like that, its horrible. Just like deino, who bites first etc

That also means a solo pachy can 2v1

[thin mantle]

Well all the terrible mirror matchups are yeah, examples of those that aren’t exist tho. Teno is the best example

Easily has the most engaging mirror in the game

[keen plover]

Only deino is as bad

Everything else can escape / fight back

If a Carno player purely wants to escape from another Carno, it can

Same with cera vs cera

Even if the other creature lands the first hit

Imo all mirror matchups should be improved

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, but i dont agree that everyone should have that luxery. If you get caught offguard or ambushed. It should hurt

[thin mantle]

There’s a difference between getting oneshot and it hurting

[keen plover]

It does though

Pachy loses 25% HP from one ram. Even more with follow ups

[obtuse ocean]

Im fine with fleeing and escaping, you either mange to run away or you die. If you get caught off guard. But some will have stuff that sorta screws you over

[thin mantle]

And if you get a leg or body fracture you just can’t fight

[dusky surge]

i love the idea that "1v1s of same species are bad, let's not have anything change that"

lol

[thin mantle]

I personally prefer it if members of the same species can’t onetap eachother but that’s just me

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, im not talking one tap. Like you can flee and get away.

[thin mantle]

If the pachy hits you you die

[dusky surge]

pachy should absolutely have frac resist for the sole reason of being capable of surviving longer falls without a broken leg

you cant flee a pachy if it fracs you

also, fun fact about pachy, it already has fracture IMMUNITY to head fractures

it is the only animal in the game to have this

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, if pachy gets a resist. Im fine with it, but it needs to be justfied. And not by just " its lame cus its bad matchup". That will happend to most 1v1 of same specie.

[thin mantle]

Why not, it gaining a resist functions as a direct response to its' matchup being a oneshot

[keen plover]

^ I personally like this idea

[obtuse ocean]

If you get a sucker punch in on me cus i dont pay attention or didnt have the skill to outmanonouver it, thats on me. I dont mind "oneshot" for people who dont pay attention. This also make it much more interactive to actually go for something, that you just dont ambush and then you have a 20 min run/walk after to try to catch up

[thin mantle]

I just think that’s a hilarious outcome when most animals don’t oneshot their own kind

A teno not paying attention cannot get comboed to death by another teno no matter how optimal the damage rotation is

A Carno can’t do that either, nor can a Cerato, nor can a stego

Not even an Omni can oneshot with a full pounce

Just seems unnecessarily cruel for the sake of being arbitrarily overly concequential

Like we’re literally talking about a 1 additional hit to fracture difference

Going from a oneshot to a two shot

[obtuse ocean]

Some will have abilities that will be much more powerfull if they manage to get close, and will screw you over. Some wont. Rex prob wont oneshot much, but your prob screwed.

Same with alberto im guessing to, since they said the fights is over fast.

Even tho i do get your point tho

[thin mantle]

Yeah none of that’s really relevant. Carno has an insanely powerful ability in charge and it doesn’t come even slightly close to the amount of value a Pachy gets from ramming another Pachy

Like we’re not talking about whether certain creatures have strong abilities

We’re discussing whether or not mirror matchups should be entirely decided by who hits the first blow

Which I genuinely find depressingly uninteresting

[obtuse ocean]

it is relevant, cus if pachy has it. Why shouldt all have it?

We are talking about the abilities now, its one ability that can screw you over. Some will have it, some wont.

[dusky surge]

what?

it's a reduction in fracture damage, pachy isn't immortal

[obtuse ocean]

Im talking with fluff, he normally respons with some good inshight instead, of what

[dusky surge]

i say what when i fail to understand your train of thought

which happens to be a lot

[obtuse ocean]

Thats true

I discuss so you get other good views on stuff

[dusky surge]

i mean, i dont see the "don't let pachy be resistant to fracture damage so i can kill more pachies as pachy" as a particularly good view

cerato is immune to its sceptic bite, troodon is immune to its venom, why would it should pachy not have a small resistant to fractures?

[obtuse ocean]

You can say that, i also think that you deserve the hit on me. If im the other pachy, either you outmanovuer me or caught me offguard.

[dusky surge]

you're still getting the hit

you aren't immune to the damage, nor the stun

[obtuse ocean]

But then i can just run, and its a 20 min run and hide

[dusky surge]

what?

where are you getting a 20 minute run from lol

[obtuse ocean]

If you catch me offguard, im gonna be running.

[dusky surge]

no you aren't, because i'd knock you over with the headram, then hit you with the alt-bite for massive damage. The concept that you are somehow immune to other pachys because of this one minor change is absurd

[obtuse ocean]

The discussion from start, was that you should be able to flee

Im fine pachy vs pachy it is lame to get hit by that, but then it should applie to all who have that

[keen plover]

Yeah. Nothing wrong with being able to escape from a mirror matchup imo

[keen plover]

all who have that? I'm a bit confused here

[obtuse ocean]

i sorta agree on that, but some will have abilities that are better and can screw you over fast

[keen plover]

That's fine. Carno can still stun other Carnos. Which is fine. But at least they can escape

Pachy just needs fracture resistance

[thin mantle]

In mirror matchups abilities that basically just end you when used shouldn't exist generally

[obtuse ocean]

I like it, even tho this is not legacy. i could easy 2v1 rexes. If i caught one of them offguard, cus i got the bonebreak. And if played correctly , you could take zero hits. And still fight the second rex. Imagine if i needed 2-3 hits i would never engange.

[keen plover]

I don't see the issue with that. Fighting 2 equal creatures should always be near impossible. Especially at those sizes

[obtuse ocean]

I wouldt even go 1v1, cus i would prob end up chasing him for the next 20 min

[keen plover]

Legacy did it in a poor way.

[obtuse ocean]

legacy did it good, for what it had and its time.

[obtuse ocean]

Why? Shouldt ambush catching some offguard pay off ? Or skill ?

[keen plover]

Rexes mechanics aren't really good at the whole 2 v 1 thing though. It's going to die fighting 2 rexes

Like Carno can do it

Since charge and hit and runs

But rex needs to fight up close

[obtuse ocean]

that depends on balance, or what abilties they get. But yes, you run if you see 2rexes coming at you as solo. But catching someone offguard is diffrent.

[keen plover]

It won't be like legacy though is the point. Where you could cripple a rex in one hit and get out

[obtuse ocean]

We dont know. Depends on what it does. I can easy cripple another carno with ease

[keen plover]

Rex has a grab
A headswing
and a bite

From the stream and the concept arts

1 of those mechanics is good 1 v 1 and poor 2 v 1

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, but how good are they if you get in the first hits without taking any

And is the rex crippled at this point ? if so , you can prob kill it faster.

[keen plover]

Maybe in some perfect scenario it's possible. But most times it shouldn't be. I'd hope the people playing rex aren't stupid enough to get beat by a solo rex.

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh, you wont numbers over skill

[dusky surge]

no?

[keen plover]

No?

[dusky surge]

he never once even implied that

[obtuse ocean]

They need to be stupid you said ?

[keen plover]

Well yes. How else would it be possible unless they're low on HP.

I'm not against 2 bad rexes dying to a solo good rex. It just shouldn't be possible if everyone knows how to use their creature

[obtuse ocean]

I get your point, if you talking about any mirror matches where i walk up to them face to face. And wanne fight, im dead

100%

[dusky surge]

what

i seriously have no idea what you're on about here

[obtuse ocean]

True, but again im talking about ambush or getting caught offguard. Example you drink water or sitting down, simply just dont see the other rex coming. That should be a easy fight for the one who does manage to get the first hits in for "free".

Unless it can escape, some will can. But hard vs something that does fracture maybe

[keen plover]

Yeah. It's meant to give you an advantage. I'm fine with that. If it's not a one hit and over, it's good imo

[frail bobcat]

what is the topic?

[keen plover]

The other rex could have watched around / listened. But for Pachy, it's a lot different. It barely makes a sound and is pretty short in terms of the roster

[obtuse ocean]

Yea pachy vs pachy i get, its lame. Im just afraid the apply it to all then

[dusky surge]

@mortal tundra pachy should 100% have frac resist against falling too

it would make it so much more fun

[mortal tundra]

[mortal tundra]

And balanced.

[dusky surge]

i mean, to be real

imagine playing on or near a cliff and kicking people off

[dusky surge]

@shadow vortex most of carno's problems will be made worse by Gateway, not better

carno relies on poor map design atm

(unfortunately)

[random stump]

carno will very much get screwed over by gateway. Have you seen those mountains?
imagine trying to ambush a galli/pachy/dryo/utah and it just jumps a ravine
what are you gonna do about it as a creature that cant jump? run all the way around and then try to find the trail again 10 minutes later when the galli has already crossed the map?

since there will be places "Safe" from carnos assuming you see them coming, i see it getting buffed as fine, since bro isnt gonna be able to own the entire map on gateway

[frail bobcat]

we need pursuit predator carno or else dryo will be viable compared to it

[dusky surge]

not even the mountains, lets make a list

• forests are more prevalent and common, as well as better designed for animals to survive in, so there will be a lot more forest dwellers
• mountainous environments are FAR more common
• the plains are far more open, basically ruining any chance of ambush
• water sources are larger and more common. the act of crossing one will immediately win you a chase against a carno
• highlands are covered in rocks that can cause carnos to easily break a leg or lose their momentum

[random stump]

that, or carno's diet creatures will all need to have migration paths through large open plains and alternate over time
like every hour the stuff in the plains switches from galli to teno to pachy or something (all on carno diet if not mistaken) so that carnos always have something to hunt that they CAN hunt

[random stump]

thats why it needs the accelleration and agility buff, so that it doesnt rely on an ambush When there is nowhere to ambush from and so that it can regain speed after bumping into a 2 inch tall rock

[dusky surge]

personally i'd rather give it stam buffs over accel buffs

[random stump]

the thing should absolutely dominate plains biomes

[frail bobcat]

and the charge rework

[dusky surge]

please nerf charge ffs so other things can be buffed

[random stump]

yeah...

its not exactly fun to play anything smaller then a carno and get 1 shot or put to 1 hit because a carno charged you once/charged you once and bit you twice before you could stand

and i like how it can hit the tip of somethings tail and still end up putting it on the ground somehow

[dusky surge]

i mean, the problem is more that carno nukes stuff like cera and teno out of existence

[random stump]

you would expect the brawler/bully carnivore to not get facetanked by a carno but here we are

[distant torrent]

I still want a damage reduction to all damage done by a carno to playables above 50% of its weight. if cera can get absurd damage resistance buffs, then carno can get damage debuffs larger, less agile playables will definitely need that change to carno once that new accel comes in

[dusky surge]

i still don't see the need at all

you don't need extra damage against smaller things on account of them being small, they take more damage irregardless

[distant torrent]

no need to it. just a want. a want for carno to suffer

[dusky surge]

it really doesn't need to suffer more than it does

[distant torrent]

just a damage debuff to things above 50% of its weight

[dusky surge]

yea but why though

[slim dragon]

Revenge balancing moment

[dusky surge]

it's not like carno is the height of power right now

[distant torrent]

mm yes revenge

[dusky surge]

it's literally a balance change away from being the worst animal in the history of EVRIMA

like one nerf could literally ruin it

[frail bobcat]

dryo exists

[dusky surge]

still better

[frail bobcat]

they nerfed its speed when it was 5 feet down under

[dusky surge]

just unfinished

(like most of the herbivores)

[random stump]

the isle devs explaining that dryo needed a nerf when it already couldnt outrun, dodge, or fight anything

[dusky surge]

dryo is honestly fine atm, again, just completely unfinished

which remains a constant issue with herbis

i cant wait for diablo so i can have a goddamn herbivore that's feature complete goddamn

dryo, hypsi and stego STILL aren't close to finished

[random stump]

dryo is missing burrow
hypsi is missing tree building and climbing
stego is missing moving while swinging and having the apex system to actually get one
teno is fine
pachy is fine

[distant torrent]

my personal ideal carno change:

• hunger buff
• nerf ram damage and nerf the stun/knockdown to only affect playables below half its weight
• damage reduction to playables above half its weight
• good accel and reasonable turn speed
• ram charges that don’t take stam

[slim dragon]

"Diablo will not having sparring at release, as we didn't want the mechanic to delay the release of the playable further. The sparring mechanic will come in a later update"

[dusky surge]

you wanna know why no one is seen playing herbivores? because carnivores have more stuff going on. Legit, you give herbis more to actually DO and people would play them

no one is playing a tenonto to be outclassed by literally both its carnivorous counterparts, that ain't fun

but nerfing the damn thing is all we get because it cannot be allowed to exist

[frail bobcat]

and the fact that herbies are very weak rn, look at pachy and teno

[slim dragon]

You know what I was thinking ? Have sticks spawn regardless of wether there's a nest nearby (but not smellable if you don't have a nest) and make them grabbale and movable.
Rocks as well.
So bored players have something to do (will also play along nice will tribal craftin and merc looting)

[dusky surge]

i want my troodon to kill another troodon with a big rock please

[random stump]

i mean 3 of the herbivores are essentially run away creatures (Lets be honest pachy's best chance is to break somethings leg and then run)
both of the omnis are run away creatures except one is to the water and the other just outspeeds you

but theres nothing to do other then fight right now (Nesting doesnt count i swear to god if one more person tries to tell me afking in the open on a dust pile is fun in going to go insane)
so the creatures that cant fight are boring
ala - over half of them

[dusky surge]

i don't think the "nothing to do but fight right now" is the problem at all

i think the fact is, all the animals that don't do well in fights also don't have literally anything else going on because they ain't done

they can't engage in any meaningful way

[random stump]

yes
because they have
nothing to do but fight right now

[dusky surge]

beipi is a run away creature, same as galli, but both have more stuff actually going on so they're worth playing

[slim dragon]

So much potential 😔

[random stump]

said the same thing as me with more woords

[frail bobcat]

the isle, yeet update

[dusky surge]

no, because i don't believe there is nothing to do but fight, i think the fact is, anything that isn't fighting isn't getting attention

i think we could have more to do than fighting if the devs gave non-combative creatures actual depth

galli and beipi both manage to be fun because they have depth

and they are primarily run-away creatures

[random stump]

people play galli because its the funny kick troodon to death dinosaur
still gets 1 shot by utah and carno so

bepi also gets 1 shot but hey you can swim and dive i guess!
if thats fun!
maybe!
i sure do love just swimming!

[dusky surge]

who cares if you get one shot lol

[random stump]

well in the game where you have to grow for an hour to two hours and then get 1 tapped it isnt exactly fun

[dusky surge]

like does it actually matter? i've been having more fun playing beipi, dryo and troodon than any goddamn cerato or carno

[random stump]

galli it doesnt feel as upsetting cuz ur the same speed as a child

[slim dragon]

You look like you only like large and powerful creatures
It's fine, but don't assume everyone feels the same way

[dusky surge]

i genuinely cannot play the larger creatures because of how dull they've all become

[random stump]

dont assume things
it makes an as out of u and me

[frail bobcat]

omni is a good inbetween for me, but its laughably op rn

[random stump]

being a massive pain in the rear as a smaller faster creature is fun dont get me wrong

[frail bobcat]

did you know that they got buffed in the last balance patch

[slim dragon]

"Complains about creatures unable to fight"
"Says being potentially one shot ruins the fun"
At this point it's not assumption, it's observation

[random stump]

but theres only so much getting 1 shot and regrowing one can take

[frail bobcat]

bleed seems to be stronger now, for some reason

[random stump]

when tf did i say being potentially 1 shot ruins the fun

[slim dragon]

^

[random stump]

i said BEING onetapped ruins the fun
not potentially being onetapped does

playing galli or beipi is entertaining beyond belief
then you die because someone pressed m1
and then you get off the isle for the day

same with troodon, ptera, and kinda dryo
hypsi you die and just respawn cuz no groowth

[dusky surge]

carno is just... disappointing
teno is underwhelming and reminds me of back when it was actually a competent animal
cerato is so goddamn overplayed, i cannot be bothered to grow one only to be murdered by the squd of 4 who are cannibals or whatever
omni is boringly OP and feels less fun to me than troodon
pachy gets shredded the moment cera appears
deino is literally the most brainless, easy gameplay it's tragic, and i refuse to be another one of those 20+ reptiles
stego is boring and unfinished and the only redeeming factor is skill-checking deinos

meanwhile i've been having a great time with the "one tap" animals like dryo, hypsi, beipi and troodon because there's legit risks to them and they get to not be part of the constant bloodbath

[slim dragon]

Ptera would be cooler if flight was an actual mechanic instead of minecraft creative mode

[random stump]

personally i have more fun on dryo hypsi and beipi then troodon because troodon likes pouncing people, connecting, being on their side for a full second, and then getting killed off of it by the creature they are currently pouncing

[dusky surge]

i used to think the combat was the most engaging part, but i now realise that it is omnis, carnos and ceras fighting each other while deinos wait to randomly intervene and that's the whole game atm

[random stump]

with the occasional teno showing up and getting mixpacked by all the carnis before the brawl continues

[dusky surge]

i have literally had more fun being a scavenger troodon than the so called "scavenger animal" cera

[slim dragon]

The only reason I don't main beipi is because right now (majorly because of spiro) deino just invalidates it...

[dusky surge]

running into the middle of a goddamn warzone to collect some random scraps of meat is so fun to me lol

little ant man

[random stump]

deino try not to ruin the game challenge (99% fail)

[dusky surge]

i may be the only man on earth who enjoys troodon's ant gameplay as a juvi

[random stump]

i like how literally nothing will be able to kill it once they remove stego from officials (:

[dusky surge]

being a goddamn ant and getting up to ant mischief will never not be funny to me

[random stump]

playable compy when

[dusky surge]

b-but cannibalism will keep it in check!!!

[dusky surge]

i would play it

[slim dragon]

I also had an experience when I was chased by a deino (which is faster than beipi by a fair margin because of course it is)
Suddendly changed direction and jumped on land
Deino just lunged 90 degrees and grabbed me

[random stump]

heres the issue with that right
so lets say there is a deino in the area
two deinos show up and kill it
yay one less deino?
nope
now there are two deinos.
and they are nesting
now there are 20 deinos.

https://tenor.com/view/under-new-management-more-like-under-new-management-megamind-megamind-meme-jokez_da_joke-gif-19867663

it is this in a nutshell

we're saved, deino has freed us from deino!

no you still have to deal with deino

its just now its a different person who plays in exactly the same way :3

[dusky surge]

:)

thank god they are staying in officials without nasty stegos making them have to think about encounters

and actually consider a threat

[random stump]

yep, have fun walking out in open fields deino players!
go wild!

[dusky surge]

they will, we all know they will

like the hell is gonna stop them

[random stump]

god i hope they add some like
bigass midtier or pseudo apex when they remove stego

[dusky surge]

we're getting maia

which, i mean, i like maia, but idk if that's gonna fill into stego's shoes

[random stump]

so that at the very least they think "Hmm maybe being 30 years from water isnt the best idea while that allo pack is RIGHT THERE"

ah hmm yes

[dusky surge]

lmao an allo pack would not concern a deino

[random stump]

im sure maia can kill deino
trust

[dusky surge]

remember, bleed resist

[random stump]

i think an allo pack should concern a deino that is far from water

[slim dragon]

"But with their water drain they can't go 10 minutes away from water"
On a map where there is no place further than 10 minutes away from water (except the edges of the map where everyone going is doing it do die in a secluded place anyway)

[random stump]

balance wise nerf deino/make allo strong enough to concern a solo deino

[dusky surge]

honestly, nah

don't do that, i hate that kinda stuff

[random stump]

i dont mean 1 allo

i mean like
four allos
maybe five allos

[slim dragon]

Allo with 10k health and 2k damage bite
Let's go

[random stump]

this isnt like a small midtier like cerato or carno vs a deino
this is like psuedo apex levels of shenaniganery

i see 0 reason for an apex to not care in the slightest about an entire allo pack

and tbh you cant really complain much about an apex walking into a field and being untouchable if you say a pack of psuedo apexes shouldnt be able to scratch it

[dusky surge]

are you saying allo is a pseudo apex

because no, it def is not

[random stump]

more or less

[frail bobcat]

its a midtier

[dusky surge]

it isn't even close to apex level

[random stump]

it is a big midtier
psuedo apex

[dusky surge]

in fact, apexes generally outsize it by 3 times

[random stump]

para psuedo apex
allo psuedo apex
gg.

[dusky surge]

nope, it's kinda small for a midtier

[random stump]

tf are you calling a midtier then
trike?

[keen plover]

Allo will still hit for decent damage and have a good health pool.

[random stump]

im sorry i didnt know BRACHI was a midtier

[frail bobcat]

bro, para is like 2 times the size of it

[dusky surge]

what are you talking about

how is allo comparable to either brachi or trike

[random stump]

hadrosaur weak in the isle

therefore
para psuedo apex allo psuedo apex
gg

[dusky surge]

no?

[random stump]

yes

[dusky surge]

like is this a bit

i feel like this is a bit

[frail bobcat]

allo is like THE midtier carnivore

[slim dragon]

I can't consider something under 3 tons a pseudo-apex

The very term pseudo-apex is iffy tbh

[shadow vortex]

Well, I guess you're right. I just can't get over the fact that I like current carno's role, which is ambush predator. I wish there was a place for it on Gateway, but yep, maybe that's impossible. I mean, I think we will have more brawlers and pursuit predators in the future, so I'd wanted some dino to take the role of ambush predator xd Also I just like the feeling of controlling an actual 1800 kg dinosaur, which takes time to get momentum and actually feels large, not like the second raptor with weight of 1800 kg

[dusky surge]

carno isn't even a good ambush predator lol

[slim dragon]

We already have a lot of ambush predators planned

[random stump]

ok
how long is allosaurus

[dusky surge]

its got slow-ass accel to prevent it from doing that

[shadow vortex]

Which ones?

[random stump]

and how much dies bro weigh

[slim dragon]

How does it matter ?

[random stump]

answer question

[dusky surge]

allo, alberto, deinosuchus (already exists but you get the idea)

[frail bobcat]

like 2.9 tons and 9 or 8.5 meters

[dusky surge]

carno doesn't need to be yet another ambush predator in the midtier

[slim dragon]

Allo, Alberto (I know it's stupid to make them both ambushers but apparently it's how they're planned), probably giga in some manner
I assume thinks like rugops will be too

[random stump]

how long is deinosuchus and how much does bro weigh

[dusky surge]

especially since EVERY GODDAMN MIDTIER CARNIVORE is an ambush predator for some reason

[frail bobcat]

12 meters and 8 tons

[random stump]

ok

[frail bobcat]

or like 11 meters

[random stump]

so why should like 12-15 tons of allosaurus (4-5)
not be able to beef with 8 tons of deinosuchus
which is a semi aquatic
ON LAND

[dusky surge]

also, it doesn't help that allo is literally a goddamn plains predator too, so all that it would do is exist to invalidate the hyper-specialised plains ambush carno, who does the same thing but worse and in less environments

[slim dragon]

We could've had punch-up alberto

[random stump]

i think they should be a little more unique then making every single midtier a lion

but i doubt t hey will do that

[slim dragon]

You don't say