balance-feedback-discussion

[cosmic pelican]

Maintaning all 3 diets on stego while growing is just pain
But it should be hard to grow

[meager oriole]

I’ve only encountered two Stego lovers so far as well sadly

[cosmic pelican]

Killing cocky stegos is the most fun ive ever had playing this game

[meager oriole]

But I’m sure there’s many out there considering just how iconic Stego is

[cosmic pelican]

Make that 3

[meager oriole]

Eden is one of them

[cosmic pelican]

I am too :p

[meager oriole]

Oh

[cosmic pelican]

Helping baby stegos grow is pretty fun

[keen plover]

👍

The only reason I dislike Stego is because of the growth. Let me get to 2t~ quickly and then grow slowly from there. Afk growing stinks. I want to play the game lol.

Unique growth scaling 😄

For each dino

[meager oriole]

Apex Herbis should definitely grow differently from Apex Carnis

Apex Carnis should stay juvenile for a long time, Apex Herbis the opposite

[keen plover]

Yeah exactly

Let me get up to speed / size and vibe with the herds in the plains lol

[golden coral]

Anyone here that knows how troodon (and maybe omni too?) pounce works with stam drain on the target? Does it drain on impact directly, or on movement from the target? If it's on movement, does any movement count like turning, or only walk/trot/run? Does it work on all stages for troodon or only some of them?

[keen plover]

Standing no iirc

Trotting = lose stamina. Felt the pain when troodons jumped my carno in officials

Running I haven't tested. Not hard too but eh

[median swan]

can we bite utah raptor that pounce right in our face?

like can we hit someone that is pouncing?

[cosmic pelican]

With good timing yes

[median swan]

i wish the biting mechanic was assisted, like if it is close to the target then the dinosaur will auto adjust so their mouth will sync with the targeted body. how do we know if our bite is in the range of their hitbox? new players won't easily tell that

the isle is a good game to freeroam but the combat is very lacking imo, they relied too much on traditional hitbox system. it's a bit hard to perform reliably especially with higher ping

[golden coral]

Hm. Nothing on impact of the pounce itself then? I'm guessing walk would also cost stam, would turn in place, do you think?

[golden coral]

Yeah, and it'll take damage, but unless you oneshot it, it'll still land the pounce I believe.

[keen plover]

Don't think so, since it's apart of standing right???

Also nothing from the impact pounce

[golden coral]

Sounds reasonable, but you never do know :p

[keen plover]

That I can recall at least

[golden coral]

Hmm, cause I heard troodon pounce on stage three does stamina drain, just not sure if it's the "normal" drain if they're latched while you move, or if there's some extra there going on just by landing the pounce

[neon willow]

Nothing wrong with needing to aim. Although it makes it harder for you, it makes it harder for your opponent too. Idk, actually knowing where your hitbox is is part of the skill of playing the game

[median swan]

a good game does not require you to learn the hitbox. Because they should be part of the model itself. if assisted biting is too much then maybe a hit confirmation which part you manage to hit, like in war thunder (part of the learning curve), and of course scar/damage model similar to path of titan so you know which part you managed to hit.

[alpine plover]

@hallow spire the stam drain by bucking is the only thing making omni not the apex of evrima.

Just manage your stamina better and have your pack help you out while you regen

@elfin girder cerato is already overpopulated

so making it easier is bad

[alpine plover]

i mean just aim better

[median swan]

how do you know how far the reach of the hitbox?

[alpine plover]

by looking at it

[median swan]

we are not debugging, there is no indicator of the hitbox besides guessing

[alpine plover]

i mean

if the animal moves it’s claws/tails to a specific spot isn’t it pretty clear it’s going to do damage there

try punching the air in real life

and translate that to in game

[median swan]

yeah that's the problem, it is weightless, there is no indicator of a hit

[elfin girder]

For now, adding more to its diet would just give it more options it’s difficult to maintain a decent diet when playing solo currently

[alpine plover]

examl?

[median swan]

you hit something you have to rely on their reaction

[alpine plover]

true

they should add a mechanic where your dino does a hit reaction animation

depending on the severity, no stun of course just a animation

[median swan]

sure, even better if they manage to add latch mechanic, "fish and grow" have a basic latch mechanic. currently the isle relying too much on static animation, there is little to no adaptive animation, (the only adaptive thing is that they are directional)

also if you know Prehistoric Kingdom. they started to add fluid animation transition. https://youtu.be/_fVZLiQz1xw

[sharp anchor]

What do you think could be updated to improve herbivore gameplay

[hallow spire]

Not saying it should have a slower stamina drain but it should drain more smoothly and still fast, the huge 2-3 chunks of stam are just off putting to me personally

[pseudo spruce]

Hey mate Update 6

Get it right

Mate

Your video was you getting absolutely destroyed

I watched your Stamina go down for the span of 3 years

Maybe learn to let go of right click thanks

Also your wrong on that aswell

They removed stun from missing pounce

[dusky surge]

And made it that buck does less stam damage

[pseudo spruce]

Yep

Bros video I put bad on is entirely his fault he died

Shouldnt be in Balance feedback

Although I still believe firmly Bucking should drain stamina Fluidly, not in chunks

[keen plover]

If you were full grown than it would have been a pin

Don't think smaller raptors should be rewarded for pouncing a Galli

[old hull]

taking damage as a utah for pinning other utahs was such a stupid idea , why am i being punished for winning?

[dusky surge]

it claws you back and disincentives cannibalism

[pseudo spruce]

Realistically it makes sense

[dusky surge]

you're getting pinned and have a massive sickle claw

[pseudo spruce]

Struggling target and all that

[dusky surge]

troodon also does it

[pseudo spruce]

Yeah, herbis dont though atleast most of them

So its understandable

[slim dragon]

Pounce them from behind
That's how you win

[old hull]

sure realism is great and all but its dumb gameplay wise , if you land a pounce on another raptor first you have won so why would you punish them

[slim dragon]

It makes the fight less braindead

[old hull]

thats actually a good point thx

giving the guy who got outplayed free damage on attacker? thats dumb

[dusky surge]

what?

[slim dragon]

I don't think any fight should boil down to who clicked first

Clicking 0.1 second after your opponent isn't "being outplayed"

[old hull]

sorry couldnt spell for a second there

if you let another utah get that close to you and land a pounce yeah you got outplayed pay attention

[slim dragon]

People are rewarded for paying attention
Since they need to face the attacker to counterattack

[dusky surge]

pounce them from the back if you wanna hit them without punishment

[slim dragon]

I don't want to be forced to pounce any omni who comes close to me in the potential occurence that they'll try to pounce me

[keen plover]

They removed that

[dusky surge]

funny

[slim dragon]

If I can dissuade them by facing them it's good enough

[keen plover]

It all deals damage

[dusky surge]

lmao nvm just dont pounce raptors

works for me

i mean, idk why you need to pounce raptors to begin with

[old hull]

because anyone not in my group is a threat , its a survival game no?

[dusky surge]

or you can just invite them to your group or attack with bites

they're clearly not that much a threat if you'll automatically claw them back and damage them if they pounce you, and your pack will help kill them

[old hull]

yes but if i do pounce another utah and take damage even tho i did everything right , and then someone else shows up to attack me while im damaged and bleeding thats bs

[dusky surge]

you can just not attack the other omni, or hunt with bites

almost like the group-based animal is not encouraged to hunt its own kind

[old hull]

just because the animal is based around groups dont mean it cant fight its own kind

[dusky surge]

it can

you just cant stunlock it with a pounce so it cant fight back

without receiving punishment yourself

[old hull]

lets say this game actually gets megapacking and mixpacking under control in the future , if your a full pack of raptors and you find another group of raptors why would you let them live? they are taking away your food

[dusky surge]

not worth the effort and potentially lost packmates to kill that raptor group

especially since raptors get tons of food from many sources

why make the risk when the future has things like perks, elders and whatnot?

it doesn't aid my survival to kill some other raptor group, it actively detriments it

its not like raptor is hard strapped for food atm

[frosty heron]

For those who dont know , pouncing a Beipi its a death sentence depending how much your Omni weights, because yes it does damage and tons of bleed to you back , unless you weight 250+ kgs pretty much you get rekt by pouncing them

[rigid tulip]

honestly makes sense bro its an adult animal with claws triple the length of yours

[old hull]

beipi does that too? cmon man

cant be punishing people for not paying attention and getting pounced now could we , we need to make it easy so lil timmy doesnt have to learn anything right

[dusky surge]

you're acting as if pounce is particularly skill-intensive and not just hold RMB to win

also you can literally just bite a beipi twice and it dies

[old hull]

yes but thats evrimas whole shtick , right click is your thing use it to kill other thing

[dusky surge]

EVRIMA's whole shtick is unique combat and interactions

Not pressing one button to win

[old hull]

we dont make carno take damage from hitting a ram now do we , he did what he was supposed to do and got rewarded for it

[dusky surge]

with the amount of stam it drains, it might as well be taking damage

[old hull]

its a very powerful ability , it should be pretty costly and punished hard for missing

[dusky surge]

also carno DOES take recoil damage when it charges large creatures lol

[old hull]

well yeah but thats good , it tells the player hey dummy you cant charge those it will kill you

[dusky surge]

and i can almost guarantee carno will be punished for charging the wrong animals, like kentro

much like omni is punished for pouncing animals with tools to fight back

god forbid we have an animal game where some animals avoid other animals because they have the tools to easily fight them off and counteract their hunting style (like a real ecosystem)

[old hull]

on kentro sure , hell even beipi i could ignore since for you to not just straight up murder the beipi in a blink of an eye you gotta be pretty small raptor , but its especially silly to make raptors take damage when pinning other raptors since they can just do the exact same thing to you

[golden coral]

I personally liked that pin had return damage if you pinned from the front, but was safe from the back. At least that added some form of skill or smarts to how you use it. Also it makes sense, you show someone your back willingly, you trust them, more or less. (or you get ambushed)

[old hull]

just be the more aware raptor and you will not be pinned , and then you live

[golden coral]

It also staggers itself, which generally means you don't get to run away from the stego you just ran into :p

[old hull]

also i tried that pouncing from behind , the pinned utah just flipped on its back and did damage to me anyway

[dusky surge]

yep

i mean, just DONT pounce raptors lol

you have LMB right there if you REALLY need a raptor dead for... whatever reason

[golden coral]

It did apparently change, but in the prior patch, I believe it worked. I recall testing it, and there was a significant difference if you pinned from the front or back.

[old hull]

but do you not realize how dumb that is , cannibal or not you shouldnt tolerate any other carnivores on the map

[dusky surge]

why? food is literally so plentiful it literally does not matter

[old hull]

if they kept it like that id be okay with it

[dusky surge]

i've seen 9 deinos and 4 ceras exist in a single part of the map fine, there is literally no problem with other carnis in your general radius

[old hull]

for now it is sure but assuming the game actually gets to the real gameplay part where it isnt just spawn center and get free food , might actually have to get rid of competition

[golden coral]

Same. I liked it, I think it makes sense, rewards both the hunter and the target. "Oh look, bush big enough to hide an omni, maybe not turn my back on it, just in case" or something, you know. Or in a rival pack situation, have a plan for how to "intercept" the others to get pins off maybe.

[dusky surge]

or just move somewhere else? i'd prefer my animal lives over risks its life to kill its own kind, especially if i could use more pack members to take down bigger prey

[old hull]

i live by a simple idea , if i can kill it i might as well kill it or it might turn around and kill me

those cute little juvies might be small now but when they grow up they might be not as mercyful

[dusky surge]

you'd be surprised how much easier it is to live if you don't fight everything that moves

[old hull]

oh i know ive tried it , but since the proper survival aspects arent quite there yet i just throw myself into as much combat as i can to get better at it

to a degree , if its a carno and im 1 utah im outta there lol

especially with the insane desync rn , you get hit from miles away

[dusky surge]

pretty sure alt bite specifically is mega scuffed

[old hull]

i believe it , ive had all sorts of attacks either not hit when they should or hit from miles away

for both me and the enemy

[unborn iris]

Pretty sure it's same for carno, teno, and cera.
https://youtu.be/9XxszMJTKSo

[old hull]

damn that is awful

[tall bronze]

Yikes, hopefully that gets looked at. Also appreciate the audio being slowed down as well

[sullen ibex]

This explains why I die so often when running no where near their mouths

[old hull]

so it seems its less just desync but more of a combination of desync with some really reaaaaaally reaaaaaaaaaaally bad hitboxes

[median swan]

even deino has a hitbox 2 meters in front of his mouth

[lone orchid]

hello

So when are you going to fix the glitch when a utah attacks a full grown rex from behind and I cant do anything because he abused a specific glitch and because of that I died
I couldnt move and ppl told me to move forward which I did and nothing happened
idk I tried to navigate around him and even on my screen I was facing this utah head to head and I didnt do any damage( i think i 2 or 1 shot utah when I am an adult rex)

[cosmic pelican]

The devs abandoned legacy long ago, and dont update it.

[untold bear]

Why is pounce still broken as in crap and doesn't function properly?

[untold bear]

Oop, another glitch. The smell mechanic for alligators doesn’t always work. You smell and there is no indicator of gators then they can still be down there. Another recommended fix

[plucky aspen]

are you refering to the blue particles from a gator swimming under you?

[tall bronze]

@white dagger Deino's alt actually takes stamina still. I think it's the only one.

[white dagger]

really?

some one confim pls?

[untold bear]

No when you smell the water you get a marker, a water droplet with a gator swimming infront of it. I smelled the water, and no indication of any signal left or right of me even after a good 30 second smell. But when I got water, gators jumped up. Therefore, the smell mechanic to protect from the op gators is broken

[plucky aspen]

interesting.. i dont know about that. ill have to look into it later

[golden coral]

I don't believe you're meant to smell a deino?

[tall bronze]

I mean I'm speaking from experience <:P Don't have a clip of it but it still drains the same amount as before.

[white dagger]

ok thats fine

but alt attacks should still take stam cause they do extra damage

[untold bear]

You can, the emblem is a water droplet with an op gator swimming infront of it

[unborn iris]

Lol

[tall bronze]

That's a stream over the water drop, not a gator 😛 That just means you're smelling water.

[golden coral]

I've never heard of that before, and I don't think it's ever been a thing.

[untold bear]

Need some proof?

[golden coral]

Yes, please provide a screenshot of how it looks if you can, that'd help.

[untold bear]

I’ll boot up the game and smell at center, there are always op gators there

[untold bear]

^

[unborn iris]

It just means water. That's not a gator.

That's a river I think.

[untold bear]

Why is there an image of a gator swimming on it then?

[unborn iris]

It's a river winding.

[tall bronze]

That's not a gator, that's a river

[untold bear]

A river doesn’t have a mouth with teeth

[tall bronze]

It's just to show you there's water

There aren't any 😮

[golden coral]

Yeah... it's just the normal water scent icon

You've just misunderstood it if you think it relates to deinos

[untold bear]

Problem is, I’ve smelled next to water and got no icon like that

[plucky aspen]

yeah this icon is just to symbolize drinkable water

[tall bronze]

That's because the scent for water isn't on every inch of a stream since they're so long.

So it can be weird sometimes

Was like that back when scent had trails as well

[untold bear]

Huh, so that just makes gators even more op?

[tall bronze]

[untold bear]

What about pouncing will that ever be fixed?

[unborn iris]

How so?

[tall bronze]

Pounce is notorious for being an absolute pain to work with

[unborn iris]

What part is broken?

[untold bear]

I can give 3 ways it’s broken

[unborn iris]

I would love to hear them.

[untold bear]

First, and I have a picture of this. It sometimes noclips you through the ground

And you drown and die

[golden coral]

I mean, much as deino is op, smelling them when they're hiding out seems like it'd ruin their ambushing entirely you know. There are better ways to limit deinos than just letting people know they're there or not. Also pounce will be fixed again, it works, then it breaks, then it works again. It's a tricky mechanic to get right, and no doubt troodons introduction has caused some issues for it again.

[unborn iris]

Not extremely common aside from pouncing small crocs, that I've seen. But valid point.

[golden coral]

Pounce is a bothersome mechanic because of how buggy it can be, but at the same time, if it works properly, it can be very op.

[unborn iris]

Pounce is working right now, it seems.

I've been playing mostly raptor.

[untold bear]

Second, the leap back. The pounce doesn’t follow realistic rules when it comes to damage mitigation and movement. You don’t jump backwards instead you just…fall down, leaving you instantaliously easy prey

You don’t jump back you detach

[unborn iris]

You do jump back, you aim with your camera where you dismount to.

[untold bear]

I’ve done that, and it doesn’t seem to jump back at all. If me and my friends have all had this problem, then it stands to reason that it is a problem

[unborn iris]

It's not perfect, and there are terrain issues and desync that make it mess up.. but once you get a feel for it, not too bad.

[untold bear]

Lastly, is the randomness of right click. You are not guaranteed to detach with a right click the moment you click it, sometimes it takes three clicks, sometimes one, sometimes two

[unborn iris]

You hold right click to pounce and let go to dismount.

It makes you stay on for a second or two if you tap rmb.

[untold bear]

So when you right click, it takes two seconds to dismount? I can guarantee you that’s false because sometimes I pounce, grab and dismount instantly

[unborn iris]

I haven't timed it personally.

[untold bear]

It’s easy to notice when playing Utah and Troodon

[unborn iris]

I'm not trying to argue that it's perfect, it has issues, I'm just trying to help you see maybe it's a misunderstanding of the mechanic that you're having trouble with.

[untold bear]

Oh and hitbox registration is messed up when pouncing, it always favors the victim of the pounce

[unborn iris]

Yeah, pounce is one of the few server-side hit detection abilities.

Which is one of its main issues.

[golden coral]

You can aim dismount yes, use the camera to look and you can dismount at various angles and distances. If you don't do that, then you might just "fall off". For the rest, I don't know what you mean, you hold RMB to remain pounced, you let go to dismount.

[untold bear]

It makes playing Troodon as a suicide mission, even with proper coordination youll guarantee to loose one or two men

[unborn iris]

You pretty much need to always lead your target, and much better off being inside them before you pounce.

[golden coral]

Well, it is a "distance" attack :p

Makes sense that you'd "lead" it in some way

[untold bear]

There is a click mechanic, upon clicking the right mouse button you do the animation for pounce. You latch on, even while not holding the button. You have a random counter either 1-4 clicks to get off the creature

[unborn iris]

Well, lead them more than you think, to compensate for desync which is more of a problem with an attack that is server-side hit detection. Unlike most everything else that is "what you see hit on your screen is what hits".

[golden coral]

Uh... no? You have to hold RMB to remain latched on far as I know

[unborn iris]

You clicking isn't doing anything after the initial rmb click.

[golden coral]

If you stop holding down RMB, you'll detach again

[unborn iris]

Maybe there is something that changes the animation to take longer, I know what you mean, but you aren't really affecting that.

[untold bear]

Erik, I guarantee you this is how I do it every time

[unborn iris]

So what happens if you tap rmb and nothing else?

[untold bear]

I just click he pounces and latches on until I right click again

[unborn iris]

The same exact thing? Coincidence.

[untold bear]

If I tap it, it goes into the animation

[unborn iris]

And you just stay on?

[untold bear]

And latches on indefinitely

[untold bear]

Yes

[unborn iris]

Then that seems like a bug or an issue with your mouse.

[golden coral]

Hm, strange

[unborn iris]

Have you tried that after changing pounce to a different key or something?

[golden coral]

Or yeah, because last I recall, it's not supposed to work like that, for either omni or troodon

[unborn iris]

Because that's not how it works.

[golden coral]

I mean it's good for him if it works that way, no need to hold down RMB I guess, but it's not how it's supposed to work from what I know

[untold bear]

Kinda wish there was a training server so I can test these things out more thourghly

But yeah, I pounced on a baby Stego as a fully grown Troodon. I timed my leap off for when he threw his tail attack, the instant where he would be in cooldown. I leapt off, steg just stood there as my Troodon had a random heart attack

[distant torrent]

#unofficial-isle-communities message

[waxen lion]

does anyone else think beipi should be able to see underwater at night likes deinos do or is that just me

like is there a reason they can't

[slim dragon]

They're supposed to go out on land during the night

[waxen lion]

The night is too long to spend the entire time on land, your diet just goes out the window if you’re not in the water

What you can eat as a beipi is pretty limited from my experience but it might be a size thing idk

[slim dragon]

that's a diet issue

Diets in 6.5 are still awfully bad for most playables

[median swan]

Night is too long, it gets to the point of become boring

[waxen lion]

^ this too

[untold bear]

Soooo, apparently baby Utah’s can pounce and pin fully grown Troodons. Buff Troodons, fr

[dusky surge]

If it's 60kg+, it can pin a Troodon

Also Troodon can literally kill a raptor that pounces it if it's small enough with the recoil damage

[untold bear]

No, tried that

[vital basalt]

Troodon are very much a pack predator solo'ing it is risky

[untold bear]

Packs don’t really make them much more viable when you loose half ur back from hit reg

Pack*

[zinc mortar]

guys dont fall to the top its fake

[untold bear]

I found another problem with pouncing

[vital basalt]

I do wish days were longer night can feel like such a drag

[dusky surge]

<@&933486433342222376> hey guys going out on a limb and going to say these probably aren't real gifts

there's a second one

thanks

[simple zephyr]

There

[dusky surge]

:)

[untold bear]

I was hunting a juvi Cera with a friend, and we cornered him. But suddenly our pounces were not registering. So of course if you miss a pounce you loose all venom stacks, which shouldn’t happen and it should just be the victim has a stack of venom with a timer that slowly goes down that can be applied by any Troodon. But that’s besides the point, we kept pouncing and either flying through him or our animation hits the target but doesn’t grapple. I checked this, I walked up to him from behind and pounced right as his side. I touched the guy’s skin, and it didn’t register. I also think that tracking should be way better, clear tracks and a way to see above grass for smaller creatures. So often does a Dino loose it’s prey cause the grass is something we can’t see above. That’s my issues for today, thank you

[dusky surge]

you dont lose all venom stacks if you miss

[untold bear]

According to the source material, you do

[dusky surge]

that was changed a while ago

venom timer will reset on a mistimed pounce and not advance to the next stack

[untold bear]

Can it be applied by any Troodon or just the one that applied it, and can only adults apply venom?

[dusky surge]

only Troodons above 65% can apply it

[untold bear]

Okay, can I apply a stack of venom then my friend can apply another?

[dusky surge]

yep

wait for the chirping a few seconds after the pounce

you can't just pounce immediately after the first pounce, timing is necessary

[untold bear]

Alright, that makes them more viable. But I still believe they are extremly underpowered for two reasons. Pounce is not functioning at its best. And the inability to properly track or see prey (hit reg is also a problem)

[dusky surge]

also tap q to see what stage the target is on
Cyan = stage 1
Purple = stage 2
Dark Purple = envenomated

[dusky surge]

You can see prey REALLY easy with this at night

They have a unique colour and are quite bright

[untold bear]

And this

[dusky surge]

Pounce is a lil' scuffed, yea

[untold bear]

Troodons LIVE off of pounces

[dusky surge]

But for more tips, you DON'T need to time on envenomated/stage 3. You can literally just swarm the prey at that point, no timing needed

It'll do TONS of damage

[untold bear]

I know but we can’t ever get to that stage for two reasons, the hit reg/broken pounce and inability to track targets

[dusky surge]

Use the highlight feature

[untold bear]

It doesn’t work well on tiny targets

All I see is GRASS

I’ll try to highlight next time tho

[dusky surge]

The highlight is SO useful for tracking prey and the envenomation stages

[untold bear]

What about this: Vomit sickness and eating rotten food, young predators should have resistance to that while below a certain percentage. They are too small to hunt other players effectively and due to lack of AI spawning, they can’t exactly get a meal. So they need to scavenge, hard to do so when ur puking ur guts out at 26% growth. Like, what am I supposed to do, bring down an Adult Cera

[old hull]

they could also give us the old tracking system back cuz the current is terrible and has always been terrible

and they had the perfect counter to it back then with mud being pretty much everywhere , so you had a genuine hunt going on where you can give your prey distance and let your stamina and health recover but wait too long and they might mud up and dissapear into the forest

instead we had to remove mud from rivers and add dumb mudpits that noone ever uses unless you happen to get attacked close to one , and give us this godawful unsable tracking system that straight up does not work nor has it ever worked

and the irony that they removed mud from rivers to prevent "camping" when their replacement is 100x easier for anyone who memorizes where the mud pits are to camp

as a bonus they also gave deinosuchus an extra chance to kill something , so again why on earth were they removed

[lone orchid]

How am I suppose to counter utahs attacking me from behind when I am a rex

?

[dusky surge]

oh you're talking about legacy?

you can't lol, play EVRIMA instead

[cosmic pelican]

Pray to God that the utah dies to a broken hitbox

[tawny vault]

Just use the hit box of rex and pray lol

[hollow canyon]

walk while turning left and bite, it very often causes your bite to land behind you

[golden coral]

@limber delta I think every playable can move and buck? And if they do, they're still bucking even if the full anim isn't playing, from what I know.

[river plover]

Pardon if this is the wrong place to ask this but is deino intended to be immune to cerato bacteria bite?

[dusky surge]

deino can't puke, so yes

gators and crocs cannot vomit in real life, so deino can't puke in the isle

this is also why deino can't feed its hatchlings the same way as every other creature

[alpine plover]

Dryo needs some kind of improvment, it's not fun to paly

[river plover]

Why set it to waste cerato bacteria then? Not that cerato should be able to vomit lock it. I honestly think vomit lock needs to go. But I just think it looks more like an oversight the way it operates now. Perhaps some other kind of sickness would have been better? Like still apply the debuffs of vomit sickness (capped Stam/hunger/water) without the vomit part? Or just make it so bacteria isn't applied to deino at all?

[cinder rampart]

So I know Cera can bite troo/omni on it's sides but can teno alt attack them as well? Pounce hitbox seems a bit off

Yet to meet one that tried it so no idea

[old hull]

i think all alt attacks have insanely big and busted hitboxes

[limber delta]

I’m not talking about moving and bucking. I’m talking about canceling the standing buck animation by walking and then immediately stopping. Causing to buck without the animation being played. Stegos can take advantage of this by then preparing their swing as they can hit omnis as they jump off. Now that I type it out loud I’m certain it’s an exploit, and a disgusting one at that.

[old hull]

tenos just wont matter as much since their alt attack does little damage

your basically rolling the dice currently in any fight wether the game is gonna get you killed or not

[golden coral]

Does it not apply to everything then, since everything can start walking, then stop and thus not play the anim, while it's still working on both ends? I doubt it's an exploit, at "worst" just an unintended feature. But in any case, you can already time your attacks to catch mounting/dismounting omnis and troodons from what I know. You start bucking, either count the time you buck vs the stamina drain if you know all that and time the attck to that, or just start buck, stop almost immediately and attack/be ready to attack. And I don't know, but I think you can attack as soon as you stop bucking/holding E anyway?

[old hull]

the fact that some creatures can more or even sprint while being pounced has always been just silly as well

[golden coral]

It's more silly that you can buck while moving I'd say

[old hull]

like a stego sure its massive a couple of tiny raptors aint gonna slow it down but a carno full on sprinting while being pounced is nonsence

agreed

[golden coral]

But considering omnis/troodon drain stam while latched if you move, there is a punishment there

[old hull]

that is true , especially on carno since its stamina is basically non existant

[golden coral]

Not sure it's good that there is a punishment to be honest, since if you're forced to stand still entirely, you have no defence vs the pounce at all really

[cinder rampart]

feels that way yeah

[golden coral]

So they should remove the stam drain on latch, so there's something to be done more than just stand there

[cinder rampart]

Bucking is useless anyway if the omni utilizes tap pounce. For the added bleed dmg at the start

[golden coral]

Which is odd since it would just make omnis just like troodon, instead of them behaving differently

[old hull]

didnt they fix that a while back? or was that undone

[golden coral]

Apparently it was undone again, or so I've heard

[cinder rampart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuHlW6-mesc

[golden coral]

But yes, they did have it fixed, but apparently not any more

[cinder rampart]

yeah seems to be back

[limber delta]

A glitch is an unintended feature. If players unfairly take advantage of that glitch and benefit from it, then it’s an exploit. Nothing should not be able to drain bucking amounts of stamina from omnis while it isn’t bucking, but especially if it spam attacks to have a chance of killing the omni on their way off

[golden coral]

Not sure if it is a glitch or not to be honest. But the thing is, the target is bucking, it's just not playing the anim.

[limber delta]

Then it shouldn’t be bucking.

[golden coral]

It's not, far as I know, that the target is bucking but isn't draining it's own stam, because that applies even if the anim isn't playing.

[old hull]

yeah in this current patch i wouldnt bother putting much effort into combat , balance is semi decent but the game itself is super unstable , your just gonna win some lose some

the being hit from miles away is almost as bad as it was in late update 3 , like yikes

[golden coral]

Eh, I'd say balance is more or less as bad as always, overdone changes and all that

Nothing new, it's how the Isle does balancing, but still

[cinder rampart]

Yeah overall, if the hitbox was fixed it'd be pretty good rn

Better than 6.0 imo

[old hull]

pretty much , but atleast there isnt one blatant overpowered dino and everything else is useless , everything is ok

[limber delta]

The target isn’t bucking but still draining the omni’s stam as if it was. It can walk, run, and attack. But the omni is still forcing to latch off soon as if it was bucking the entire time

[old hull]

if the game wasnt imploding that is lol

[cinder rampart]

Except for Steg, the resident cow

But you have to suffer growing and playing one of those

Plus Troodon/Omni are helping rn

[old hull]

true but those we just ignore , they are just walking beartraps

[golden coral]

Not really, we got troodons killing stegos, ceras killing almost everything via vomit lock, gallis doing high level bleed for some reason, carno being bad, teno being changed for no good reason, and so on

Plenty of issues to say the least

[cinder rampart]

Ah actually yea, the teno change. Wonder why. I've seen a lot of carno packs recently.

[old hull]

i never understood the huge hatred for stego , sure if your atleast semi decent your basically unkillable but they are so easy to just ignore , you only die to a stego if you choose to go near it

[golden coral]

The target is bucking, just not playing the anim. Sure you can argue that it's not visible, but the mechanic is happening. And you can walk, and run, while bucking, that's been a thing for a while. Most of the anim doesn't play when you do that, obviously.

[golden coral]

Eat grass and die! I honestly don't know, considering deino also exist. And then the whole "we need rex to deal with stego", as if... well, rex isn't just going to do stego things but even more and worse.

[old hull]

when you put it that way yeah i guess stuff still is doodoo lol

[golden coral]

Not sure how people think when they say they want something to just kill stegos, okay, great. Now do you imagine that new playable will somehow not be the new stego?

[limber delta]

The bucking should be visible and preventing certain animations from playing. Such as alt bites and swings. It’s clearly an unintended animation cancel glitch that players are exploiting for their own unfair advantage.

[old hull]

finally someone who understands that , like people that want rex in to deal with stego dont realize the majority of stego players dont use it because its a stego they use it because its big and strong , stego players will just switch to rex and carry on their invisible journey

[golden coral]

Should it be visible, yes. I think there is head anim, but obviously not the full body bucking when you're moving. Which also makes sense. But you are meant to be able to move while bucking. And it should not prevent attacking, one of the few ways to properly counter pounce is to catch the target on mount and dismount. That should absolutely be a thing. What would be better is to make bucking/pouncing a far better interaction in the first place, so there's proper play and counterplay, and work from there.

[old hull]

i would hope that rex wont just completely dunk on stego whenever that comes in but this is the isle , and with how much the devs keep talking up the apexes i am quite concerned

[golden coral]

Pretty much. So far 90% at least of all stegos I meet want to go fight stuff/hunt deinos. Meanwhile all I want to do is wander the plains, eat my marigold, and possibly nest.

[limber delta]

If the bucking target attacks it should cancel the bucking drain until the target clicks e and starts bucking again. I don’t understand why you’re defending an exploit.

[golden coral]

I don't blame them entirely, most of the game is barebones aside from fighting, but it does also mean that they'll go to something more capable of fighting when they get one

[cinder rampart]

How I play Steg, like a tourist. Watching the chaos

PT on land

[golden coral]

And rex would obviously be better at hunting than stego could ever be

[golden coral]

It does? If you attack, you've stopped bucking?

[old hull]

i dont mind aggressive stegos at all , i just ignore them entirely , its not like they are gonna catch up

[cinder rampart]

Will it's downside be massive hunger? Could be tough to balance

[golden coral]

Not sure, we'll have to see how they balance things.

[old hull]

my guess will be since diets are a thing apex juvies will have to move not just bush camp , and if you give them a long enough growth time and them being forced to actually do things it might be pretty challenging to grow one

[limber delta]

It doesn’t cancel the stamina drain from bucking. If you cancel the bucking animation you still cause stamina drain as if you were bucking. that’s what I’ve been attacking this whole time so what are you even arguing against if you didn’t know what I was talking about

[old hull]

so pls no hour and 47 minute long hunger time like deino devs , even deino shouldnt have THAT long of a hunger timer

[golden coral]

Rex growth being amazing

Meanwhile, trike growth... not sure, baby trikes are just worse versions of adults I think

[golden coral]

Hunger time is fine I think, it's the requirements to remain full that isn't

[cinder rampart]

Younger Rex's may fall to deinos at least, when they can still be grabbed

[golden coral]

Deino should be able to go very long without food, but it should also require a lot to fill up

[old hull]

very long sure but almost 2 hours is a bit much , if you are actively looking for kills your never gonna swim around for 2 hours and not find anything

[golden coral]

I am telling you, you can move and buck at the same time. If you move and buck at the same time, you do not play the anim fully (I believe there's a head movement, but that's about it), for obvious reasons. You still buck, and thus both you and the target have their stam drained. You can let go and attack at any point from what I know (I don't think you can attack out of bucking directly, you have to let go of E, but I could be wrong there). And if you have attacked, you now need to press E again to start bucking.

Being able to move and buck at the same thing is not a glitch, far as I know. The lack of anim is also not a glitch, it's obviously so because the full bucking anim wouldn't work while also trotting/running.

[old hull]

yeah that stego bucking but not looking like its bucking has been a thing forever , you can see its head wiggling when it moves

[golden coral]

If you want to criticize the lack of better "tell" that the target is bucking when it's moving, that's fine

But that's just a visual "bug" then

Carno I believe also shakes it's head while running and bucking.

Not sure what the rest look like, but I'd guess something similar

[old hull]

pretty much yeah

[golden coral]

Fair. Though deino is kind of meant to find a good spot, sit there, jump out at crossing/drinking things once in a while, and be happy. Croc gameplay in a nutshell.

[faint igloo]

He is telling you that when you buck and attack while bucking all animations of Bucking will be canceled. But you still are effectively bucking until no one is on you anymore. While this is happening you do not have to press and hold e or get any other disadvantages you would normally have, like having to wait for the buck to finish before being able to attack.

[limber delta]

I have not once argued that dinos shouldn’t move and buck at the same time. This is what is commonly referred to as a “strawman argument”, where you have made up a weak argument to tear down yourself rather than focus on my actual point. I argued that, for example stego, stego can buck in the standing pose, then immediately walk forward an inch then stop. This cancels the bucking animation entirely, and allows the stego full control while still draining stamina from its opponent as if it were bucking. This allows the stego to attack, fall, call and even eat while at the exact same time bucking. This is very obviously a glitch, and when someone intentionally uses it, they are exploiting. What should happen, is that as soon as a stego walks that inch to stop the standing buck animation, it should stop draining stamina from the pouncer as if it were bucking, until it starts bucking again. Same thing if it swings.

[limber delta]

Thank you. I tried to make this as clear as possible but I guess I’m not perfect at describing and no one is perfect at understanding

[golden coral]

As far as I know, that's not how it works, so what you're talking about is not, to my experience, a thing.

Do you have any evidence of this being a thing?

[limber delta]

I’m going to see if anyone else has made a video on it. But I’ve experienced it on both ends and have tested it personally

[golden coral]

Also you'd do well to stop with your baseless accusations

If you can't provide proper explanations and arguments, that's no fault of mine

Well, provide evidence and we'll see. But you can attack out of bucking, you don't have to wait for the anim to finish, far as I know, so that would not be an issue.

[faint igloo]

https://youtu.be/VusWbHWdYcU

[limber delta]

https://youtu.be/v6DkvQgIhn4

Lol the same video

[limber delta]

You hadn’t asked for evidence before. No need to be mad.

[golden coral]

No, that was not related to evidence or not. That was related you to accusing me of strawmanning when that was never the case.

[limber delta]

in reference to my several comments describing in detail the exploit

[golden coral]

Except that was on you for not explaining properly, or me misunderstanding. So that was still a baseless accusation.

Also the vids don't show that the omni being on is still having bucking level stam drain while the stego is seemingly not bucking, from what I can see?

[limber delta]

Excuse me? Mind repeating that again?

[golden coral]

I'm looking at the second one

[golden coral]

The omni pounces, the stego bucks, then moves, the omni remain on it while the stego swings, until it runs out of stam and falls off. But I'd like to see that from the perspective of the omni as well?

[thin mantle]

Whats the confusion

Every animal can move while bucking

This isn't stego specific every animal can do what that stego just did

[limber delta]

Yes. Which lasts 4 seconds. A full omni pounce lasts 21 seconds. So despite having completely stopped the bucking animation. The omni was still having its stam drained as of it was still bucking.

[golden coral]

Apparently the claim is that you can "autobuck" after you've moved, without needing to hold E or anything else. But the attacking from bucking, the moment you let go from E, is far as I can tell normal.

[thin mantle]

Doesn't matter the buck was still active

Omnis should pay attention to their stamina first

[limber delta]

#balance-feedback-discussion message

[thin mantle]

this isn't unique to stego

Every buck is animation cancelable

[limber delta]

It’s an example. And the most exploitative one.

[thin mantle]

What is the exploit, the buck time there at least chipped 3 chunks of stam

Regardless of the swing cancel that omni was falling from the buck regardless

[golden coral]

Okay, yes that sounds odd. It's most likely a bug if you can somehow still buck without holding E after you've moved a step. But aside from that, I don't think there's anything wrong?

[limber delta]

What should happen is that when the bucking is cancelled, the stamina drain from bucking should be as well. This isn’t the case.

[thin mantle]

Depends on tick timers

Which is bucks main issue

It's not even an exploit with any specific animal it's just the timing in which buck stam ticks operate

If the majority of the time between ticks is spent bucking it'll reg a buck

[limber delta]

It isn’t tick dependent. It lasts until there’s no pointers left to buck.

[golden coral]

Maybe we should go test it as well. But if you can somehow remain bucking without holding E, that seems like an obvious bug.

[thin mantle]

Would love to see an example of that, prolly just have to test it myself

Cuz that video doesn't provide the data necessary to determine whether that was at play

[golden coral]

Guess it goes to show, bucking and pouncing are just dumb. Should just remove pouncing, make it something else.

[thin mantle]

Agreed

[limber delta]

Even with holding E, you shouldn’t be draining stam if you are busy swinging, eating, alt biting, etc.

[golden coral]

No of course not. Far as I know, you have to let go of E to do anything else, including attacking. At which point you no longer buck, so no drain.

[thin mantle]

Well tbh a swing should honestly count as a buck

But that's a seperate topic

[golden coral]

Though I do think you should be able to attack to cancel buck, since you need some way to handle pounce

[limber delta]

It should end at the next animation loop if it’s a standing buck, like when eating. So it can’t be exploited to trick pouncers into thinking you’re bucking then just instantly stop doing it and attacking

[golden coral]

Honestly, they should keep this for stego. If they won't let stego just swipe pouncers off, this might be a decent substitute.

[golden coral]

No, you should be able to cancel and trick them.

[thin mantle]

That removes a colossal chunk of bucks skill ceiling and giga buffs pounce

Nah

Having a gauranteed safety window because of bucking is absurd

[golden coral]

That's fair game, you take the risk, not being sure if the target is bucking or tricking you. Same with holding on and not immediately dismounting and so on, to trick the target to attack at the wrong time.

[limber delta]

You want stego to… swipe pouncers off? Even when it’s got by far the highest bleed resist and pounces to kill of any terrestrial dino…?

[golden coral]

Yes. Absolutely.

[thin mantle]

Literally yes

Why should omnis be hunting stegos anyway

[golden coral]

It's a stego, it should be the one thing aside from anky that you do not pounce.

[thin mantle]

They're one of the only animals in the game designed to counter them

[golden coral]

Literally, the anti flanker animal vs the things attacking the flanks, sitting there

[limber delta]

Brb I’m going to go canni some stegos after hearing this

[thin mantle]

The fact that omni is even balanced around stego is hilarious enough

[golden coral]

Also stego has no bleed resist.

[golden coral]

No reason to get mad ^^

If you force a full buck anim to play before you can do anything else, you've just made bucking even worse than before, since now it's even more of a deathtrap to use it.

[limber delta]

If omnis can’t do it then other stegos will

[thin mantle]

Alright

[golden coral]

Which means now we're back to just stand at cliff and drop omnis to death xD

Great and fun gameplay for both sides I'm sure

[thin mantle]

I mean...stego is ironically one of the animals not in need of a predator once it's a full adult rn

Because it isn't relevant to anything elses survival

[golden coral]

Yes, that's fine. I personally think both stego and deino should be very competitive and not come in greater numbers than pairs and so on

[thin mantle]

It can be ignored, so it's dealt with

[golden coral]

A pair of stegos should by no means tolerate another pair on their plains, any more than a pair of deinos should ever tolerate another pair in their section of the river/shoreline

[thin mantle]

mhm

[limber delta]

Oh no not competitive I just like to kos stegos as a stego. I don’t play it for anything else because I know how annoying it can be for others.

[golden coral]

Anyway, the last thing bucking needs is to be made useless again, so being able to cancel buck and attack is at least something

[thin mantle]

What on earth in this game could find stegos annoying

[limber delta]

Sometimes I befriend them and betray them just to change my steam name

[thin mantle]

They are an entirely irrelevant presence

[golden coral]

Stego is not annoying. Omnis, troodons, deinos, are problematic critters if anything.

[thin mantle]

Nothing suffers from them being in the game

Nothing really benefits either

Well, I shouldn't say that

Stegos are why deinos aren't terrestrial

So they have that

[golden coral]

Deino especially, but omnis being more or less op is a constant issue, and troodons may or may not be similar, though it can also simply be that teno isn't really up to par, and stego is just badly designed for a stego, so it struggles when it shouldn't

[thin mantle]

So actually everything benefits from stegos existing

[thin mantle]

Troodons hit up to stegos in groups of ~6

So yeah they're scaling is a bit weird

[golden coral]

It is a bit odd, yes.

@limber deltaYou know, I got a question here for you. If you want bucking to be forced to play the full anim before being able to do anything. What use do you see for the buck then? If you got an omni on you, and you buck, you just messed yourself up. Now the rest of the group gets free attacks, the one on you gets to get off safe and sound with no risk what so ever, and you've... gained what exactly? At what point is buck useful if you make it work like that? Why would you not just stand next to a cliff, or a mudpool, or water instead and use that to fight the omnis? Or at least next to a cliff and then buck so whoever is on falls to their death. Do you want even more terrain use and for people to just stand next to a rock during an entire fight, because nothing else works as a counter?

[thin mantle]

Bucks only counterplay would be fatal drops

[golden coral]

I'm not seeing how you imagine bucking would be useful or worth attempting at any point when you can just as well use a tree to scrape them off, or even just stand next to a rock to trap them between that and yourself for an attack.

Why would you ever buck?

[limber delta]

Bucks are to prevent long and free pounces, not baiting pouncers into your animation cancelled attack.

[thin mantle]

Yes it is

Who said it wasn't for that

[golden coral]

That... answered pretty much nothing. So you'd make bucking useless then. Because with an anim lock, you get both to get off and on free, safe as can be.

[thin mantle]

It's not like you can prevent a duo of omnis from landing a pounce on you

[golden coral]

So basically, use buck if you want to give the omnis an easier time.

[thin mantle]

And there's only like...1 animal in the game that can hard stop a pounce before it initiates

Because stego is the only animal with the reach and hitboxes for it

Bar deino, sometimes pachy

[limber delta]

It should be hard for omnis to get on and easy to get off. This has been the case until 6.5 where the community unanimously agrees it was overbuffed.

[golden coral]

You can scrape a target off easier than bucking them, with less punishment, if you lock bucking to a full anim. You could just stand in mud or shallow water. Or just find a nice area with trees and rocks, especially rocks, and just sit there.

[golden coral]

It should be hard both to get on and off. Currently it's never been hard to get on, or off.

[limber delta]

“Currently it’s never been hard to get on, or off”

[golden coral]

Pounce has always been one of the most mindlessly easy abilities, and always been far too safe. You don't have to aim for the flanks in the first place, you don't have to worry about dismount aside from stegos (who again, should be terrifiying to pounce in the first place). Even when the missed pounce was a thing, if you had any sense of when to pounce, you could afford a miss and not automatically die, despite peoples belief to the contrary.

[golden coral]

Let me clarify then. Pounce has never been a difficulty ability, or dangerous. At any point during this game. The only "danger" pounce has ever had, has been actual bugs.

Which does not count for the mechanic itself.

[thin mantle]

It's literally a safer higher value bite with easier engagement and disengagement

This has never not been the case, bar bugs

[limber delta]

You don’t think the devs won’t nerf pounce to compensate if they actually ever fix the bugs?

[golden coral]

It was never difficult or dangerous to get on, and never difficult or dangerous to get off, aside from off a stego which, well, it's a stego, that makes sense. The only playable in the game that has been "immune" to pouncing is deino, because deino has it's own little safety biome (and massive bleed resist, on top of that).

[golden coral]

Possibly. But we see how it goes when they do, people cry that it's useless or underpowered because they do not understanding trading power for reliability. But as Fluff mentioned earlier, pounce is currently designed to work against stegos. Now, consider that rex and trike are most likely not faster, and lack stegos fancy tail attack that goes out to the side. And of course we're operating on the understanding that any alt attack hitboxes are working as intended. You think it'll go well for those, when omnis can safely handle a stego?

We saw what happened when bucking was powerful last patch, it got nerfed this patch.

Granted, that could be because the issue with how stam was drained couldn't be fixed otherwise, but still.

But even if pounce got adjusted, for both omni and troodon, that does not answer on what the use of bucking would be if it's more helpful to your predators than to you.

[limber delta]

It wouldn’t be.

[golden coral]

It would if you applied an anim lock and forced the target to finish the whole animation before being able to do anything else.

[limber delta]

No it wouldn’t.

[golden coral]

Alright, explain how it wouldn't then please

Because if you're locked into an anim, it, far as I can tell, gives your opponents a clear opening with you being unable to do anything about it

[limber delta]

Because it still forces pouncers to get off.

[golden coral]

Which is, quite frankly, rather useless. That does not save you, it only delays your death. Meanwhile, the other pouncers can get on entirely safely because of the anim lock, not having to worry about being caught on the pounce. And the one(s) on, can get off safely, also not having to worry about being caught on the dismount.

Compared to any other option, even taking the pounce and trying to catch the one on you when it inevitably gets off, or one of the others that tries to get on, it seems like bucking would be the worst thing to do.

[limber delta]

That doesn’t make it useless

[golden coral]

If you take the pounce, at least you're free to try and catch any of the others, or the one on you. If you use trees, or rocks, you can scrape the one on you off immediately, and possibly trap them for a kill. As well as prevent pounces from one side at least (not that it helps due to front/rear pounces but still).

[golden coral]

It kind of does, because unless there's only the one pouncer, you're harming yourself more than not. Letting the other one get on free isn't good, letting the one on you get off free isn't good. Letting both happen is certainly not good. All you just did was make their attacks safe, at the cost of your own stamina.

You've basically relegated bucking to "use only when you're going to die anyway".

[limber delta]

You’re draining the stamina of your targets which forced them to retreat and rest. Giving you time and more opportunities.

[golden coral]

And also made it so the viable options are now even more to use terrain, more terrain, and possibly grouping up so someone can attack whoever is on you.

[golden coral]

Which, if you're against a pack, means nothing. Nothing at all.

Sure, if it's just the one pouncer, it'd possibly work. But at that point, I'd just take the pounce and kill them on dismount, since one pounce isn't doing that much, at least not if I'm something bigger.

[limber delta]

Yes it does

[golden coral]

Also, they can just get off the moment you start bucking, which means they lost nothing, or very little. They'll get that back while trotting around you. While it cost you stam, and being open to everything else.

[thin mantle]

That doesn't provide you with any respite...

[golden coral]

No, it does not. It really, really does not. because the one that needs to rest, is covered by the other five.

[thin mantle]

You're facing a pack, only 2 omnis are required to apply the minimum pressure to land a free pounce

[golden coral]

Nothing you can capitalize on what so ever unless they somehow let you

[thin mantle]

One baits, the other pounces

[golden coral]

Sure, that first target is now out of stam, okay, great. The other guy is on you now however.

[limber delta]

Yes it does. Especially if you drain the stamina of all five.

[thin mantle]

Also omni regains it's full stam in less than a minute

[golden coral]

Okay, you clearly do not understand how pack hunts work

By the time you get the first off, the other four can all pounce safely

[thin mantle]

Under no circumstances does this literally ever happen unless the omnis are so mindnumbinly awful that they all waste their stam unanimously

[golden coral]

Because you're locked

[thin mantle]

Even then, you're a stego, you're not going anywhere

[golden coral]

So the first one pounces, you buck to get them off, now everyone else pounces because you're locked and can not defend yourself. While the first guy gets off free, and has barely lost stam because he got off the moment you started bucking.

Even with current bucking, or prior bucking, you're not draining "everyone" like that

[limber delta]

Stegos always go to rocks, trees, bushes, water. At which point they don’t even need pounce.

[thin mantle]

Good, that's the only thing allowing them to survive

[golden coral]

Unless it's only four of them, and they all, somehow, manages to pounce at the same time. which again, means they can jump off the moment you start bucking, all of them safely, and retreat to a safe distance.

[golden coral]

Ever wondered why? ^^

Because bucking is a rather useless mechanic, even when it's powerful, it's rather useless

[thin mantle]

Pounce doesn't have enough counterplay to not utilize terrain

[golden coral]

Because it only delays things, it does not prevent them

If bucking was a proper counter, you wouldn't need terrain half as much, though it could be useful vs big groups to cut off attack vectors and all

But as it stands, even vs a solo omni, bucking is not really that useful, except maybe as carno because you're fast enough to run it down, if it stays on long enough to not have much stam left for juking that is

[limber delta]

Yes it is.

[golden coral]

No, no it is not. Because any reasonable omni gets off the moment you start bucking.

[limber delta]

Yes it is.

[golden coral]

Which means they still got plenty of stam to run about, and they are faster than everything but a carno

So... nothing for them to worry about

Bucking, in order to be useful, have to be powerful and the go to option to remove a pouncer, and it has to do so in a manner that makes the pouncer at risk of death properly, so it can be followed up by a kill confirm. Otherwise, you're still dying, just a few minutes later than if you didn't pounce (and that's without anim lock, if you add anim lock, you just die faster if you buck)

[limber delta]

That’s not true.

[golden coral]

Hopefully, at some point, we'll get a better interaction and a buck that is the go to option, instead of running to a rock or tree. As well as properly dangerous pounces to use, that require aiming, has a punishment on misaim, and so on, so it's something you can actually be good at.

[golden coral]

It is. I've given examples and everything.

[limber delta]

Nope. This is just a made up scenario where the target has no other ways of attacking or moving other than directly after it bucks.

[golden coral]

In any case, it's kind of funny that you'd want an anim lock on bucking, when omni lost it's "anim lock" on missing a pounce, and so on. I don't see how adding more "you have to just stand there for a few moments" situations would add anything to combat in general, much less to this particular interaction

[golden coral]

No. But being able to do so otherwise is irrelevant to bucking as a mechanic.

[limber delta]

I want omni to have its animation back

[golden coral]

So that's not a point

You can fight normally, sure. But anim locking bucking makes bucking useless, even if you can fight otherwise.

Anim locking bucking and then going "but you can attack and move otherwise" doesn't somehow make anim locking any less terrible, and buck any less useless at that point.

[limber delta]

Bucking is used in conjunction with other methods to fight pouncers. You don’t afk on a field and hope they stay on long enough to lose all their stam and die.

[limber delta]

That’s the point. Still doesn’t make it useless.

[golden coral]

Except it's not. Bucking is specifically to counter pouncing.

[limber delta]

It is.

[golden coral]

It does. Because you've removed the use of bucking.

[limber delta]

It doesn’t.

[golden coral]

It does, and bucking is specifically for countering pouncing. Hence it needs to be the go to method for that.

[limber delta]

It doesn’t.

[golden coral]

But you clearly do not understand, or just doesn't want to understand, so there's no point here.

Anim locking would make bucking even more useless than it is. If you can't properly use it to counter pouncing, there's no point in it. If you can easier get a kill confirm by just using a rock or trees or something else, then bucking doesn't have a point. You can do everything bucking does better, while also doing everything else. Thus, bucking needs to work as the primary counter to being pounced. Mechanics should be countered by mechnics, that makes the most sense.

[limber delta]

Bucking isn’t useless it’s actually incredibly strong.

[golden coral]

And while others might be fine using terrain (aside from when they complain about it being used of course), I think it's just not very good design. Bucking should be the "get off right now" manuever. Aside from that, pounce needs to be properly dangerous and difficult to use. Together, that'd make for a decent interaction, even if we could stand to have more than just press/hold RMB, and press/hold E.

[limber delta]

Pounce already is dangerous to use.

[golden coral]

No, no it is not. It is mindlessly easy and simple. Aside from bugs, which do not count because well, bugs.

[limber delta]

Yes it is.

[golden coral]

Also no, bucking is by no means strong, it's never been good, even in prior patch, while it was strong, it was only so due to how the stam drain worked in chunks, which did put the omni at risk of falling off almost immediately.

[golden coral]

No, no it is not. But you know, if you can't provide any counter arguments, I have no reason to believe you.

[limber delta]

Yes it is. You can die from using it.

[golden coral]

In any case, being able to use buck to "trick" targets is perfectly fine, it's one of the few ways you can trick your target and make them vunerable. So at least there is that going for buck, even if it's mostly applicable to stego and not so much the others due to lack of reach.

[golden coral]

Sure, if it bugs out.

[limber delta]

You’re not using buck to trick anyone. You’re using the delay of the tail swing in advance to make omnis panick and get off

[golden coral]

Which I do not consider because well, bug.

[limber delta]

Even if it doesn’t.

[golden coral]

You're the one that earlier said that you can start bucking, then stop, to trick the target to get off.

[golden coral]

No, if it works fine, you're safer than with most other attacks.

[limber delta]

Yeah the animation cancel is the trick not the bucking

[limber delta]

No you’re not.

[golden coral]

Pretty sure that's not what you said. But then I'll clarify. You can currently, with no "cancel" just start bucking, then stop holding E, and attack from there. So you can start bucking, do so for just a moment, then stop and swing, hoping to have tricked the omni into jumping to not risk it's stam.

Or as earlier pointed out, you can hold buck long enough to know that x amount of stam is drained, then count and swing to time the attack like that.

[limber delta]

yeah and that's a problem.

[golden coral]

No, that's perfectly fine.

[limber delta]

wrong. it's a problem

[golden coral]

Yes, yes you are. Pounce is very safe overall, when it does work properly.

[limber delta]

no you're not.

[golden coral]

Maybe to you. I think it's perfectly fine.

[limber delta]

no it isn't.

[golden coral]

You should by all rights have plenty of opportunities to catch an omni or troodon on mount and dismount. Since you can't catch them otherwise in almost all cases. You're free to dislike that, but far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly fine.

[limber delta]

and there are many normal and fair ways to do that without exploiting an animation cancel.

[golden coral]

I literally explained to you that it's not the anim cancel thing.

[limber delta]

it's a different anim cancel situation.

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. You're not exploiting anything. You can at any given point stop holding E to stop bucking.

Just like you can stop holding E to stop doing, well, anything else

That's literally, you know, stopping whatever you're doing, as you're able to do

[limber delta]

which doesn't revert or finish the animation. it cancels it.

[golden coral]

What you argued earlier is some form of potential bug that allows you to remain bucking while also being free to use E for other purposes such as eating, apparently. Which would be a bug.

[limber delta]

so a stego on its hind legs can go into swinging animation on the next frame.

[faint tundra]

Animation locking a pounce?

So like the Omni can't move if it misses?

[golden coral]

Because you've stopped it. Like how eating and drinking works.

[faint tundra]

Or am I miss understanding something

[golden coral]

No. That if you start bucking, you're now supposed to be locked into a full anim before you can do anything else.

[limber delta]

that's how it worked prior to 6.5 for omni

[golden coral]

Fine, I'll play your game, but that kind of "anim cancel" is not an exploit or anything.

It's literally how it works, for every ability where you hold E

[limber delta]

not a full anim. just finishes the loop. which lasts literally a second.

[golden coral]

Plenty enough. When you stop, you should stop immediately. This should apply to all actions really.

[limber delta]

even pouncing midair?

[limber delta]

even charging?

[golden coral]

You're literally flying through air, the moment you land, you can move

[limber delta]

even tail swinging as teno/stego?

[limber delta]

even alt biting as deino?

[golden coral]

Also you're comparing an attack with an ability

[limber delta]

even ramming as pachy?

[golden coral]

I did say "abilities where you hold E"

[limber delta]

even water boosting as deino?

[limber delta]

even taking off as ptera?

[golden coral]

Most of your examples are also not loops

[limber delta]

even eating?

[golden coral]

So, not sure what you're on about honestly

[limber delta]

even grabbing?

[golden coral]

Yes, eating/drinking

[limber delta]

even kicking as galli?

[golden coral]

Can't galli kick while moving anyway? xD

[limber delta]

even charging as carno?

[golden coral]

Far as I know, you can stop your charge at any point by not running anymore

[limber delta]

even spitting as hypsi?

[golden coral]

No but cleaning the spit off

[limber delta]

even dodging as dryo?

[limber delta]

even pinning as utah?

[golden coral]

You do stop pinning when you let go of RMB

Same with no longer latching on if you let go

[limber delta]

even sliding?

[limber delta]

even falling?

[golden coral]

Sliding?

[limber delta]

even wallowing?

[golden coral]

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying for here now

Wallowing, yes

[limber delta]

that moment when i try and punish the carno for wallowing when surrounded by 8 omnis but it teleports off its side onto it legs within a single frame and 1 bites me to the head (fair and balanced erik eden balancing)

[faint tundra]

I mean I could see them adding a new shorter animation in for different actions when you stop halfway

[golden coral]

You mean like how omnis teleport? ^^

[faint tundra]

That'll be a lot of work but it probably look cool

Would be good for immersion

[golden coral]

Just add a quick movement thing like how you can stand up quickly

Stamina cost but immediate stop from eating/drinking, and so on, could be applied to other things as well

[golden coral]

I mean, it wouldn't be able to wallow at that point anyway. And you'd be on it with pounce if you did that, otherwise just bait a movement. You know, like you can do anyway.

[limber delta]

oh sorry, let me rephrase, wise one.

that moment when i try and punish the carno for wallowing when surrounded by 8 omnis but it turns into the flash and immediately gets up from its side onto its legs in 2 frames and 1 bites me to the head (fair and balanced erik eden balancing)

[limber delta]

hey Erik i dont think you knew this but you can't pounce in mud 😁 it's only been a thing since mudpools were added though so i can understand why you missed that very recent addition

[golden coral]

I don't think you know it, but the only mudpit that you're out of reach in, is the oasis one. In which case you can just wait the carno out, it's not going anywhere if it's surrounded like that.

[faint tundra]

Bro I'm kind of new to the game, and I learned that the hard way the other day as an Omni chasing a carno actually lol

[limber delta]

real

[faint tundra]

I ran up to him right clicked and stood there like an idiot lol

[golden coral]

But it's kind of cute you think I don't know about the game, considering I most likely have far more experience and knowledge than you do :p

Also last I did wallow, you can as a matter of fact get up from wallowing at any point through the animation. You're not forced to finish the "loop" as it were.

Though that one could have been changed, its been quite some time after all, since well, rarely a need to use mudpools while being near one

[faint tundra]

What are mud pools even good for? The only thing I know of is they apparently help bleed?

[limber delta]

ironic you say that, since you said "the only mudpit that you're out of reach in, is the oasis one.' Implying you think omni can pounce a carno in mud if it can reach it. Which is very funny for you, since an omni gets immediately knocked off. Proving you don't actually know much about the game and just lying to save your ego.

[limber delta]

yeah they stop you from losing blood when you're bleeding, they also prevent special attacks and slow you down

[golden coral]

I did say it's been quite a while since I even used mud. But I was unaware it worked like old water did. Still, you can attack and reach the target in all the others, compared to being in the middle of the oasis one and being slowed down. And sure, I don't know everything, it happens. At best I was mistaken, that's fine, it happens to the best of us.

[faint tundra]

Ty did not know it slowed you down, kind of makes sense though if you were covered in a few extra pounds of mud you'd probably not run at full speed

[golden coral]

Not sure why you need to constantly attack me as a person instead of providing arguments for your points, but maybe you're having some kind of issues or so.

[thin mantle]

It's funny that mud pits are even being discussed given how absurdly situational they are

A byproduct of bleed damage is that it prevents repositioning

Movement makes it worse

Relocating to a mudpit is rarely an option unless you initiated the hunt around a mud pit

[limber delta]

oh no no you can walk at normal speed after wallowing. it's the mud pit itself that slows you down

[thin mantle]

Gateway has even fewer mud pits than spiro

[faint tundra]

Ahh ok I see

[golden coral]

Combined resting with using mud, and you're very unlikely to bleed out. Though you still can, mind you, but it's miniscule at that point so unless you're like, on what, a percent or two, you'll be fine most likely.

[thin mantle]

So it's....well it's a moot point, about as relevant as the existence of cliffs if not less so

[faint tundra]

Gravity is a harsh mistress

[golden coral]

In any case, you can break your wallow anim at any point. As you can stop bucking at any point.

So, point wuould still stand. Baiting a wallow used to be a thing for that matter.

[thin mantle]

Actually you can't, past a certain time threshold of your wallow you're locked into the "getup" animation

[golden coral]

Pretend to wallow, stop it, hit the target

[limber delta]

"But it's kind of cute you think I don't know much about the game, considering I most likely have far more experience and knowledge than you do :p"

"Not sure why you need to constantly attack me as a person"

????????

[thin mantle]

Although if its within the first few seconds you can

[golden coral]

Huh, didn't know. But you could bait with wallowing back when it existed at rivers at least

Since that was a thing people did

[thin mantle]

You still can the time gate is just tighter

Actually no it's not, it's unchanged

[golden coral]

I believe you were the one starting that kind of "arguing". I merely pointed out that I do have a lot of time and experience in this game. But I can also admit when I've been mistaken.

And since they fixed the whole "you can stand in shallow water and the omni just drops off you" (far as I can recall at least), I would have no reason to believe that still applied to mud.

Since it makes little sense you'd get knocked off purely because your target is touching water/mud as it were.

In any case, aside from oasis, the other mudpits are quite tiny and don't really offer very much in the way of "if you get in here with me, you die"

[limber delta]

Implying you aren't an expert in the game≠attacking you as a person≠you saying you have more knowledge than me

[faint tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/thriller-michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-watching-gif-5577709

I just want to say you guys are awesome this is a straight up Reddit meme fight right now

[golden coral]

No. But then you said something about me and ego, and that seems like more of a personal attack you know.

Which was also what I was referring, but perhaps you forgot that one

[limber delta]

you still get dropped off by standing in shallow water it just isn't as strict

[limber delta]

it was a guess that you were purposefully being disingenuous. but you just weren't aware. I still stand by that.

[golden coral]

Glad you're getting something useful out of this, I'm not sure we are, this does seem like we're arguing for no good reason. He thinks anim locks are fine, I think they make a mechanic rather useless. And so on. We don't see eye to eye on much today at least.

[golden coral]

Strange, the omnis that fought me when I was carno could pounce me despite me standing in pretty deep water. Maybe it's changed again then.

[limber delta]

I gave up when he just kept saying 'no. no it isn't' when i had a good point, and just blatantly lying/denying any game mechanic i wanted changed. So I've mostly been arguing like him.

[faint tundra]

To throw my two cents in the ring I think animation locks for anything that has an inferred applied force are fine. It's kind of a situational scenario

I wouldn't have animation lock for everything

But some things make sense

[thin mantle]

Animation locks make combat clunkier

[golden coral]

I've not lied or denied anything. You're upset because we didn't understand each other back then with the bug thing?

[thin mantle]

Hence why missed pounce recovery was removed

And stuns were nerfed globally

[faint tundra]

I don't think pounces that are missed should have an animation

But I think you'd be kind of cool if you slow down for a second

Kind of like you stumbled and you're regaining your footing or something

[thin mantle]

Right, which still wouldn’t be an anim lock

Agreed

[golden coral]

They should, otherwise there's little to no room to punish someone that messes up. But a decent slow would work, plus some stamina drain.

[faint tundra]

Oh not saying it would be just thinking out loud really

Well seeng as an omni can get one shot by a stego tail I feel like there's already enough punishment if you mess up

[golden coral]

Also, do not think for a moment that you've argued like me. I've given examples and reasoning for every point I made. You, have not.

[faint tundra]

Most creatures that use pounce mechanics are kind of lightweights when it comes to HP

At least from my experience

[limber delta]

Yes I have.

[golden coral]

And yet, because of their speed, agility, and how safe pounce is, there is little danger

[faint tundra]

I don't know, I've seen a stego intercept the raptor before with its tail

[golden coral]

Even being one shot by a stego requires the omni or troodon to mess up massively, or for the pounce to bug out, which does seem to happen

[faint tundra]

Poor dude was just hanging there all limp

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, it can happen, but it's not very likely, and you can pounce a stego on it's face to avoid that risk

[limber delta]

I’m actually the only one that provided evidence in the form of a video. You denied it until I explained to you step by step what happened. Then you said it was okay.

[golden coral]

Since pounce still isn't locational dependant

[thin mantle]

It’s absurdly easy to avoid tbf

[faint tundra]

That's why I'd meet in the middle ground, maybe not have an animation lock. But make it worth the omnis slowed down for a couple seconds is it tries to regain its footing

[thin mantle]

The attack end lag is significant and baiting is easy

[faint tundra]

I'm new so I kind of suck

[golden coral]

No, I did not understand, because either you did not explain properly, or I simply misunderstood. You, for some reason, are acting out of bad faith here, thinking the worst of me or something.

[thin mantle]

No worries

[golden coral]

Also that was a specific "does this happen or not", not an argument or point like anim lock or similar

[thin mantle]

For example, pouncing a stego head on is a free pounce

Stego can’t reach that far forward

[faint tundra]

That's a good point

I was with a pack that managed to take one down the other day

[thin mantle]

Let alone a safe dismount, the Mount itself is just as safe

[faint tundra]

It was exhilarating

[golden coral]

The fact that omnis and troodons can reliable take down stego out of all critters, at least shows that either they're quite op, or stego is in need of some help (it is anyway when rex and trike comes in but still). It's still strange how deino also get a pass on everything like this xD

[thin mantle]

Water op

[golden coral]

Bleed resist and a very good alt bite also helps :p

But safety biome is op yes!

[thin mantle]

Highest bleed res, immune to danger in water, good alt, highest bloodpoool in the game

Etc

[faint tundra]

Stegos are practically invincible if full grown and there's more than 1

A single stego can be taken down but it is a war of attrition in my experience

And most dinos aren't willing to die trying to take it down when there's other prey

[alpine plover]

They're invincible right now. There's nothing remotely close to its weight class in game.

[dusky surge]

deino is above it lol

[untold bear]

Can dinosaurs kill you when you are pounced on them?

[olive zinc]

Experience from playing Troodon says yes, but I don't think that's intended and more a result of lag/hitxbox shenanigans.

At least I hope so. Troodon combat is in a pretty rough state right now where even if you have good communication and make no errors, you can still die to ten foot magically extended Cera jaws

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9w18X_96LY

[hollow canyon]

this is oh so very ironic, cause I gave up when I just heard "no it good cause I say so" for about 15 times in a row.

@alpine plover What you're saying sounds like a lag but tbh there's that thing where alt biting in front of you caused things way too your sides to get hit so it could be that. Seemed like a pretty universal issue.

[unborn iris]

I feel like the game does a really good job of tricking people into thinking they aren't lagging when playing with higher pings, whether on non-native servers or whatever. They don't realize what you are seeing on your screen is not what everyone else is seeing. And the higher your ping the bigger the discrepancy. If they hit on their screen with 99% of atttacks in the game, they are hitting. Doesn't matter what you see on your side.

Add in high ping for both sides and things get really weird.

[old hull]

that video right there is the perfect way to explain to someone why combat is a complete waste of time in the current version lol

you can be the best player in the world and it wont matter , your either gonna get kill by hackers , mega/mixpackers or just the game giving you the good ol middle finger

[golden coral]

@stuck fog I don't think there should ever be some kind of immunity or resistance while in the air. It is after all, one of the few times you can more or less catch a troodon or omni and they should be vunerable both during mount and dismount, so they have to time it and all that. At the very least, this should apply until there's actual need to aim the pounce and front/rear pouncing isn't a thing. You can aim your dismount as well, to try and avoid being predictable. On top of that, part of the issue might be that currently alt bites seem to be having hitbox issues, normally you'd not be caught reliably by anything aside from stego when it comes to pounce. That as well as the usual bug issues with pounce that has to be fixed.

[thin mantle]

Pounce is already one of the safer abilities in game to perform

Doesn't need I frames

[kind brook]

@stuck fog YES! I just died last night suring a pounce and the Cera didn't even bite me off. It literally bit forward the regular way and killed me but I was fully on the side (perfect pounce).

[small sphinx]

@olive zinc Hit boxes deff, need some work but watch your ping rising in the top right corner. That's what got you killed. Watch the ceras head movments to follow what they saw on their screen.

[stuck fog]

I think Omni pounce and troodon pounce should be separate cases of balancing, they both have pounce but play and utilize pounce very differently

[noble charm]

@uncut trellis to add to your feedback of stego being able to defend itself, people will be angry but a 4 foot long spike, not to mention 4 of them, being swung into the face, chest, leg, whatever it is would cause significant damage to nearly ANYTHING, I don't understand why people want apexes to be unstoppable, some animals are meant to defend themselves in adulthood, some animals don't even have predators when they reach maturity, yet people complain stego is "overpowered" no duh, go hunt juveniles. anyway, I agree that it should be able to defend itself from apexes, though still being a decent 1v1, so it could go both ways depending on player skill.

[keen plover]

It's the realism takes that annoy me the most

"Rex is bigger and a lot stronger"

If we balanced creatures off of that then nothing would compete with Carno in game

Except Deino & Stego

[noble charm]

I agree apexes should be apexes, there are just certain animals in ecosystems that shouldn't be push overs, but herbivores especially tend to be fodder even though they are more than capable of defending themselves, yes It's a video game but you cannot expect a carnotaurus to be able to kill a fully grown stegosaurus

[keen plover]

Stego shouldn't be fodder. It's a defensive wall. Let it play like that.

[noble charm]

exactly, and if you're caught off guard and your head gets bit off, that's kinda on you

so it could really go both ways, I think in legacy they did rex and trike dynamic fairly well, if you got the jump on trike you were probably going to win, but if you went head to head, trike was more likely to finish you off

[keen plover]

Yeah. Stuff like that is infinitely better than "I see a Stego, I can just walk up to it and win"

[noble charm]

and I definitely agree with Stello as well, stego should not be sprinting away from an apex, that would just be extremely goofy if that's how it has to survive

[meager oriole]

Stegosaurus balance… my worst nightmare

Stego has one of the most counterable kits in the game period

It can’t run for the life of it, it can’t chase down stuff… and yet

Stego is THE defensive playstyle besides Anky(well Anky moreso breaks leg and runs away like Pachy)

But like… how do you also make Stego not unkillable to Apexes? Similar thing with Trike

Unless if you allow legacy combat with Rex ambushing them

It’s difficult for me to try finding a way to make this possible that doesn’t just make Rex insta win either

[noble charm]

they wouldn't be unkillable to apexes, you would use ambushing to your advantage, while that seems impossible without a speed boost, it is still very possible to get the jump on them, especially when tyrannosaurus will have a head butt, which would assumably do some sort of stun/knock it's prey over, but stego, trike, shant, ect should have no issue dispatching an overconfident apex

[meager oriole]

Because I want Stego/Trike to win against Rex almost annihilating Rex if they’re aware of its presence and require to ambush them, and in the scenario of Rex ambushing them it could be a slight Rex favored “50/50”

[noble charm]

plus with leg break, that removes the ability for alt turning potentially, or could slow it down or something

[meager oriole]

This is arguably ideal

[meager oriole]

See like…

A stun would be an insta Rex win

[noble charm]

okay I wouldn't say remove, they should still be able to alt turn, but if you get that initial bite on them and wound them significantly with the first bite, it should go in your favor, but if you just run out and expect to face tank them, you should pay that price

[meager oriole]

It should be I agree

[noble charm]

but it should also depend on skill, tactics, ect. if I am a trike and I get bit once, I shouldn't die simply because the 10 year old who just bought the game can continue to finish me over

[meager oriole]

However it’s difficult… to find a way how this could be done right

If it doesn’t then these fights will just be one sided to one group or the other

[noble charm]

It's not very simple, but In a way it is, but in the same breath, it should be a long and careful battle for all involved, it shouldn't end within a few bites, but be something that lasts for a good amount of time, which gives either party an opportunity to make a mistake, which would in turn move the fight in favor of whichever didn't

[meager oriole]

Stego and Trike don’t control the engagements

Which complicates this further mostly with Stego

It’s… hard to mess up Trike I feel

[noble charm]

you are correct, but once initiated, they can plan out how they'll survive, using the terrain/the carnivores skill, ect

I feel like with stego, if you get ambushed and your head is bitten, it's over

otherwise, you stand a fair chance with a tail swing

[meager oriole]

The fights should initially always favor Stego and Trike really for that simple reason

Especially Stego as its kit is from behind it being purely defensive

[noble charm]

well to be fair, while it could be more in favor of the herbivore, which is realistic, ideally as an adult apex you wouldn't want to be going after adults lightly, and as an adult stego, if you can't stay wary enough to be prepared for an attack by one, that's sort of your fault

[meager oriole]

If they get ambushed by an apex, they should not be favored

[noble charm]

so it really just depends, even now I see stegos being killed by 3 ceratos, but then I also see stegos murdering 4 ceratos and a deinosuchus

[meager oriole]

Stego can be killed by 2 Ceratos

[noble charm]

exactly, but there are stegos who know what they're doing, and they're the ones who most likely make it to adulthood

[meager oriole]

I also see Trike and Stego being harder to grow than Rex tbh

[noble charm]

eh, Idk about that, just because how even their gameplay really could be, stego and trike shouldn't be running down players to kill them, but they should most definitely be able to defend themselves, and punishing them in making their growth longer than an apex predator would just be odd, as it's the one who's going to engage most fights, and if you get chased down by a trike idk what to say

[meager oriole]

Never said longer

I meant harder as in, Rex will probably have a long but nice growth while Trike and Stego… are another story

[noble charm]

I suppose I misunderstood, but honestly rex should still have it harder, in general carnivores do which is a good thing

[meager oriole]

If they do Rex growth well enough anyway

As it stands now Herbivores are harder to play in general than Carnivores

[noble charm]

rex should struggle immensly, especially towards it's older juvenile years, it's an apex carnivore, there shouldn't be that many that make it to adult

[meager oriole]

But it’s especially harder to grow a Herbi than a Carni rn

Even Pachy growth

[noble charm]

I guess it depends what you're doing, if you're literally anywhere other than central plains you can grow pretty easily

south is a good spot for pachy to grow

[meager oriole]

My gameplay on Cerato was much simpler than on Tenonto, for example

Tenonto I had to move from South to Southeast to South to Southeast while Cera I literally just afk grew in Southeast

I encountered several stuff alongside my Tenontos journey, encountered only other Juv Ceras really at Southeast which I killed

Stego has it the worst

[noble charm]

but it's probably because you had like 20 bodies from everyone else I would assume, if not gg, but in my experience herbis aren't the worst, but to be fair, they implemented the diets that way so herbivores had to travel, where as carnivores like to just stay in one area, which is a tad bit annoying and I hope they make it so some carnivores have to move around the map more

[meager oriole]

Nope

Only one body for one Cera can last you for an afk grow

[noble charm]

fair enough, I definitely think it's bad gameplay for people to just afk grow, but I'm sure they'll implement things to change that

hopefully hunger will go down much quicker in the future

[meager oriole]

They can try

[noble charm]

especially for things like carno, so you have to stay nomadic in search of food, where as rex or something can last a while so it could maintain a territory

[meager oriole]

Herbi diets for a lot of the time cause them to go into areas of high activity

Aka South, Center and Northwest

Tenonto NEEDS stam diet to survive, South is a must

Stego basically has to go in Center all the time

[noble charm]

I hope they add more insentive for people to travel and stay in the entirity of the map, seeing people in one place pretty much is just.. not fun, especially when there is a whole part of the island being unused and if you go there, nothing happens

[meager oriole]

Pachy… is Pachy, with its food commonly getting bugged rn too really not happening

I know a spot near Center that’s good for Pachy stam diet though now so I could try it

[dusky surge]

stam diet is terrible for the game tho

i truly hope it gets removed

(or more accurately, replaced)

[noble charm]

my hope for gateway is that it has diets spread out well so you don't have to stay in one straight shot area, but you can go to a multitude of different regions of the map and stay satisfied, that way you have more chances of running into players randomly in the forest or something because people could be anywhere

[dusky surge]

well, gateway has migrations

[meager oriole]

Migrations will probably be nice

[noble charm]

not anywhere ig because specific diets grow in certain areas (for herbis), but at least spread out

[meager oriole]

But yes as it stands now, herbivore gameplay is funnily enough harder than carnivore gameplay

[noble charm]

but even with migrations, I hope it isn't just a straight shot and a loop kinda thing, I hope it takes you all over, or at least for some species, things like Anky shouldn't be traveling too much

[meager oriole]

Herbivore food rationing also feels different

Herbivores require far far more map knowledge

[dusky surge]

nah, with migrations, it's supposed to be

• go to spot
• get food
• vibe in said spot for a good while (nest, hang out, eat, avoid carnivores)
• migration spot changes
• migrate

[noble charm]

It would be cool if things like dryo had more of a irratic pattern for it's migrations, where things like gallis could be more bird-like in a way that they go a certain way or something, idk how to explain it, it's just irritating seeing everyone in center because thats where the food is

[dusky surge]

it's not

• migrate
• migrate
• migrate
• migrate

like it is now

[noble charm]

yeah but if it's migrate to the same spots every time, it'll just end up like central, because people go from south, central, nw

so hopefully it does randomize or something idk

[dusky surge]

wdym "the same spots"

it'll be depenent on the animal's perferred biomes

[noble charm]

so, in south near the nesting grounds, pachy and galli has it's prefered foods, so people will just use that, then go to central, and vice versa, never leaving that general central area

same with almost all of the other herbis

biomes are cool but I just hope it doesn't end up being like spiro is all where everyone hangs out in one area, even if it spreads across a decent chunk, it'd be nice to randomly see people out in the forests or beaches kinda thing, but right now if you go anywhere but central, chances are you won't see anyone out in the "wild"

[dusky surge]

i feel like you misunderstand how migrations (and gateway) will work

[noble charm]

maybe I am, I hope it does justice for the map is all and uses every inch of it, rather than keep everyone communially in the same areas all the time

[dusky surge]

migrations mean a LOT of food spawns in ONE area of the map, whereas other areas become more limited. So like, as a teno, you migrate between swamps, highlands and so on, whereas a pachy will migrate between coasts, highlands and maybe plains

we don't know too much, but your diet will be hard to sustain outside the migration zone

[noble charm]

that would be fine, I suppose as long as they do it certain ways for certain dinosaurs, I feel like some should be able to be anywhere on the map, like Anky wouldn't be good for migrating at all and should probably just get to hang out wherever and occasionally roam

same with some other random dinosaurs, that way you can't rely on finding them in specific biomes, rather they're just anywhere at anytime, some dinosaurs just don't fit the herd mentality kinda thing, or rather the migrating theme, so Idk, I'm hopeful for it but I hope it's done with that in mind

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, thats normally how it works? You dont solo a stego as omni. But how you do you see stego as it is now competing with rex? It can barly one shot a carno, stego gonna have problem with a few allos/albertos. Its not close to apex power, unless they give him better defensive tools

[meager oriole]

Stego doesn’t have full kit rn

Stego is an 8 ton(at max size) animal with thagomizers

Omni is not

Omni also doesn’t exist

[tall bronze]

Stego is 6 tons actually

[golden coral]

In game currently yes, he was talking about potential max size it could be and still be accurate/reasonable

[round loom]

@ripe quail jjfajen — 07.07.2023 16:45
Something I'd like to see experimented with: Giving beipi water sense, but only for movement below the surface. This would help beipi's survivability against deinos by allowing them to detect approaching deinos a little easier and give them a method to detect deinos while on the water's surface. Right now beipis need to spend most of their time in water looking below the surface in order to not get nabbed and it is extremely hard to see deinos if you're breach swimming to travel. There's plenty of elite fish swimming around to give false positives that can lull beipis into a false sense of security and a deino lying still/approaching fast could still ambush beipis with ease.

(I will acknowledge that this change may be completely unnecessary once Gateway is out considering its waterways are very different to Spiro's and it was designed with playables like beipi in mind.)"

I think it is too easy to survive with the beipi as it is. The only thing that annoys me personally is that you can't swim at the surface without running the risk of being snacked by a deino because you don't notice what's happening underwater. It just takes away some of the duck-like comfort that you would swim around with from time to time. however, if you swim on the surface as a beipi and see what's happening underwater, nothing can happen to you, because a deino has no chance of catching you. what else can happen to you? nothing, and it's a survival game. you can't see underwater very well at night, but neither can the deino. all in all, it fits, although in my opinion the beipi is still a bit too relaxed. like the petry, the beipi is more of a socialising dino and less gameplay.

[warm shuttle]

i agree beipi is the most boring dinosaur only second to stego

[latent lotus]

@polar vine dont think that a missed pounce = death would be good ngl

[knotty venture]

nerf x dino cuz I cant over power it easily!

& if you disagree your a troll

[dusky surge]

so true...

[warm shuttle]

i agree, nerf deinosuchus because i cant kill it as pteranodon........

[dusky surge]

I mean, nerf deinosuchus in general regardless

[obtuse ocean]

What you mean with it? ofcourse x dino will overpower x dino easy.

[knotty venture]

ppl complain about the dino but dont play it

for example

pachy can not out run or even try to hit a cerato to make a get away its to slow

& its stam is worse, yet that slipped pass QA

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh, yea that i get. Actually not played pachy since cera got in. But that does not sound fun for pachy

[knotty venture]

its very hard solo for pachy rn

[keen plover]

Pachy is garbage rn. Can't even stomp Omni's well enough anymore.

Nevermind the cerato infestation

I don't get Cera having fracture resistance

Head sure, but the body?

[knotty venture]

I get it & I dont mind it

[keen plover]

Personally think it should be a 2 hit on head but 1 hit on body, but yeah. It is technically slower than Pachy

[knotty venture]

cera is in a good spot, Pachy needs some stun back like if they hold it for 3 seconds then they should stun.

[keen plover]

Knockdowns were lowered as well

[knotty venture]

pachy doesnt go fast enough right away to pull ahead quick enough

[keen plover]

Yeah Cera starts off quick in comparison.

I personally wouldn't say Cera is in a good spot. Well stat wise it is

[dusky surge]

Cera is not in a good spot imho, too strong

[keen plover]

Mechanically it isn't though. But I'd keep the base stats and buff the other creatures

[knotty venture]

Cera is in a good spot. its slower then everything as a baby. it relies on its bile to make things huntable. Which if you havnet figured out can be baited out of a cera then idk.

a carno can face tank a cera if they keep topped on food. A tenonto group is a force to be feared. like yes it has bile but you still can die easily. cera gets stunned by tenonto. it is very quick to drown a cera as a croc. cera gets knocked by carno charge & bit once? half hp already.

[dusky surge]

It's too oppressive with its stunlock imho, along with its NUTS stam

[knotty venture]

im sorry, but why are you getting into a ceratos space?

its supposed to bully. & your mad its bullying.

[dusky surge]

I'm not, it forces itself into mine

[knotty venture]

as what

as what dino?

because the only thing it can easily out run is a stego.

things arent ment to be really played alone anymore. stegos have something to fear if alone from ceratos. I seen it so many times where they just stop in fighting & go for a solo stego

[keen plover]

The mechanic needs tweaking. 5 bites to puke an Omni & 5 bites to puke a stego.

[dusky surge]

Teno/stego are just abused by ceratos atm

[knotty venture]

lies

[keen plover]

Lies?

Literally test it. It doesn't scale.

[knotty venture]

The charge bite does more bile if it lands

& stego players should be at least paired

[keen plover]

5 bites to puke a full adult stego

[knotty venture]

I have tested it. what are you doing as a stego to allow being bitten 5 times.

[dusky surge]

Being stego, your attacks are slow and commital, any 2 ceratos can bait out swings and attack

[keen plover]

Ah. 1 v 1 it isn't happening. Sure I'll give you that, but groups can literally just throw themselves at one to puke it

[knotty venture]

your attacks are slow if you are swingint to the front/back

have you tried swinging to the direct side?

super fast

[dusky surge]

not really that fast

[keen plover]

I know what to do with Stego. I'm just stating that it mechanically isn't complete. It needs to scale for size.

[knotty venture]

then you arent swinging in the sweet spot

[dusky surge]

also i rarely play stego, from what i've seen, it's quite slow

[keen plover]

Needing 5 bites to puke a creature of stegos size is too low

[dusky surge]

^

it needs to scale with weight

[knotty venture]

you- you can one shot a fg cerato

if you hit it in the face. they need to eat TO REGEN THE BILE. are you useing the enviorment??

[dusky surge]

unless they have a body, in which case, one-tap don't work so good

[knotty venture]

Theres bushes, rocks. if you swing to the side correctly you can two tap drop a cerato faster then it could leave

well yea

you should move once you drop a body.

this just sounds like you guys dont know how to fight cerato & I guess dont know how to use the stego fast swing.

Tenonto is the only one in a bit of a spot

its stam drains faster then cerato & doesnt regen fast enough to keep ahead of a trotting cerato

even with full 3 dot diet.

[keen plover]

I don't play Stego so that doesn't matter to me. Pretty much any creature between stego size and lower will puke to cerato in 5 bites.

[knotty venture]

bites or charge bites

because bites vs charge bites matters & location on the body.

[keen plover]

I also do know how to play as it. Anyways needing 5 bites to puke an Omni doesn''t make sense. It dies before you get the debuff off

[knotty venture]

it scales with location & if its a reg bite or not

[dusky surge]

no it doesn't

sceptic bite scales with nothing

[knotty venture]

I mean I tested it.

[keen plover]

Is it wrong for a move that can stun to scale? They've removed stuff for less anyways

And I don't think needing 5 bites to puke a stego is fine. I guess you do but eh

[knotty venture]

you have to land those bites.

& stegos who are using the fast swing right arent allowing that to happen

[dusky surge]

They have literally removed every stunlock except this one

[knotty venture]

a single head shot & that cerato is dead

[knotty venture]

so tenontos dont stun things with kicks & tails? & carnos dont stun things with charge anymore?

[keen plover]

They have stun cooldowns

[dusky surge]

cera doesn't have a stun cooldown, it stuns into stun into stun

[knotty venture]

ether way try playing it more before you yell nerf

[keen plover]

I have. I'm not saying to nerf its stats. Literally let it scale with the bacteria.

[knotty venture]

Cerato is a scavenger that is ment to make things F off. if you are getting into its space. or a lone stego then that really is on you.

even a lone stego can prob fend off ceratos if they use the enviorment

they legit have to eat to refill bile.

& if they dont go in fast enough the bile goes away on the dino