balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

how the goddamn hell do you die as an omni/galli to a carno

seriously i cannot fathom this

[hollow canyon]

Gallis are faster than Carno, Omni should never let a Carno touch it with that turn rate

[limber delta]

Just have a full stomach, carno can cc lock cera to death it’s extremely easy

[hollow canyon]

Cerato can rundown Carno

[hollow canyon]

you mean the other way around I believe

Cerato can CC lock every animal to death

they are distustingly good at that

no other form of CC can do that as they all have a cooldown

[limber delta]

If you decided to facetank a cera that’s your fault not mine

[hollow canyon]

Carno wins a facetank if it has enough food in the stomach

It's Cerato that shouldn't be facetanking it

[limber delta]

But you don’t want to facetank a cera even if you win it

Since you’ll vomit.

[hollow canyon]

of course you don't

but it's on Cerato not to get hit by Carno

not the other way around

Carno doesn't have the agility to outmaneuver a Cerato, Cerato does have enough agility to dodge the charge and Carno's attacks

if you get hit by the charge

you are simply bad

this has always been the case, aside from U6 which made Carno's charge disgustingly broken

[limber delta]

If you actually tried carno instead of reading patch notes you’d know how easily you can execute a cera without vomiting. And cera does not have the speed to dodge carno’s charge even if it has a good turn unless there’s a skill diff

[hollow canyon]

I have tried it on test while testing Cerato just to compare the bite speeds of both(guess who wins there and by what margin). Carno is awful, I could dodge its charge with a Tenonto which is far longer than Cerato

if you can't dodge Carno's charge that's a skill issue

[dusky surge]

i have tried carno. the only redeeming factor is it vs cera

unless, of course, the cera has a body buff, or friends, or is near water, or is near a forest, in which case, do not bother

[hollow canyon]

yes, Carno has the best match up against a Cerato in the open field

even there Cerato can outplay it

by literally GETTING OUT OF ITS WAY

[limber delta]

Wow, you can dodge a skill shot? It’s almost as if that’s what they’re intended for

[hollow canyon]

not to mention Cerato is still not on its diet

[golden coral]

Carno is pretty bad, cera is far superior, that's all there is to it.

[hollow canyon]

that skillshot is the only chance in hell Carno has to win this fight

[limber delta]

Carno is really good right now, beyond diet it’s better than cera

[hollow canyon]

unless you're killing Ceratos by chasing them and biting them

[dusky surge]

i truly do believe that, despite everything, the community will still find a way to complain until carno gets nerfed AGAIN

[golden coral]

Carno was fine in U6 aside from bugs, now it's... well, kind of useless again, more or less. It just needed bugs fixed (hitbox) and all was more or less well

[hollow canyon]

cope harder, Cerato's are everyhwere right now which speaks all that needs to be said about it

[golden coral]

No, no it is not.

With cera stunlock, they might even take the first place for group scaling, depending on target

[limber delta]

It’s amazing tbh, as a carno main I’m surprised people want it to be even better

[hollow canyon]

Carno is the weakest in its whole time since its introduction, it has the most weak sides out of all the animals

[golden coral]

Which is one thing carno was good at due to charge

[dusky surge]

as someone who rarely plays carno, i'm surprised people want it even worse

[hollow canyon]

is it better than it was on Update 6?

Is it better than it was on update 4.5?

[golden coral]

If you can be told all the pros/cons, and not see how cera is far superior, then I don't know what to say...

[hollow canyon]

Is it better than it was on update 3.75?

What update do you think it was worse on than it is now?

Tell me, our Carno main?

[limber delta]

The pros outweigh the cons

[golden coral]

Cera is in pretty much every way the better choice, it's that simple

[golden coral]

No, no they do not, at all.

[hollow canyon]

what are the pros and cons in your mind?

Cause you mentioned "speed"

[dusky surge]

doesn't carno have like 50 cons lol

[hollow canyon]

to ignore 10 awful cons it has right now

[golden coral]

Is this like "but stego do more damage, thus stego is op and not deino", ignoring everything else about deino? But with carno/cera?

[hollow canyon]

not just "bad" sides to Carno, worst in the games stats it has under its belt right now

[limber delta]

The biggest pro is that it can choose who it wants to fight, a privilege only commonly shared by pteranodon. Now compare carno and ptera in terms of killing power. Carno can easily kill over half the roster, especially in a duo

[golden coral]

But that pro is only one aspect, cera is still by far the better playable overall. You take one thing, and think it defines the playable, that is not the case.

[limber delta]

Overall carno is a better playable

[golden coral]

Cera in duos can do better than carno in duos by now I'm pretty sure, with the vomit lock vs charge. Esepcially with less stun/knockdown timers and all.

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. It's really ,really not.

Overall, cera has a mass amount of good things going. Carno has, a good few things going bad for it.

[hollow canyon]

Cerato has a broken vomit mechanic that lets them vomit lock every animal, they are the best hunters of STEGO in the game.

It has a damage resistance which makes it the third most tanky animal in the right circumstances.

It has THE MOST POWERFUL ATTACK IN THE GAME except for Stego and Deino which outsize everything else.

Amazing stamina for its size, which is worse only than that of animals vastly smaller than itself.

NO COST on its special attack.

Fast in the water.

Able to alt attack in the water.

Able to eat things that only one other animal in the game can eat.

Able to get nutrients from bones.

Literally best animal in the game by a LARGE MARGIN

[limber delta]

Cera is meant to be a survivalist. So it’s not a very significant point to make when you’re comparing it with something that trades its survivalism for speed

[hollow canyon]

nothing is as broken at this thing, with the bagajillion of things thrown at it

oh I forgot I can keep on going

[golden coral]

Hunger time = Bad on carno. Bleed handling = Terrible on carno. "Gimmick" = Better overall on cera, since you can literally shut something down with it. Agility = Terrible on carno. Terrain handling = Bad on carno. And so on

Meanwhile, all of those are good, or better, on cera.

[golden coral]

.... Carno needs to survive too. You can't just go "but speed" and ignore everything else.

[hollow canyon]

Damage reduction while eating which makes it able to ignore attacks of smaller animals like Omni bites.

Second highest bleed resistance.

Highest fracture resistance.

[golden coral]

This is as dumb as going "stego more op than deino because damage"

[hollow canyon]

Carno has:

1. Speed
2. Health

that's it, everything else about it is atrocious

[steep leaf]

carno is absolutely geriatric right now with its stamina

[golden coral]

And that speed is pretty limited due to lack of agility and all that.

[hollow canyon]

to cope so hard to say that it's better than Cerato is either being is an insanely strong denial

[golden coral]

As well as lack of stamina.

[hollow canyon]

or just lying

[limber delta]

It’s actually the opposite. Arguing cera is better just because it can fill up its meters easier

[golden coral]

Yes, cera is better, but not because it can do that. But because overall, it's stats, and efficiency, are all better than carno. Same with how deino is the most op playable bar ptera in the entire game.

[limber delta]

Carno has better stats

[golden coral]

You go "Carno has speed", yes, but that speed does very little, if you look at the whole of the playale.

[limber delta]

So you’d be willing to remove its speed if it meant giving carno an easier diet and more agility

[hollow canyon]

2 good things on Carno compared to 12 on Cerato, what do you even have in the way of an argument? That Carno can run away from things? No it can't, Omnis can easily track it. I've done it in the past and there've been no changes to this.

Cerato can track it too, espcially if it makes Carno vomit even once or if Carno has less than full stamina because Cerato covers more ground without stopping.

[hollow canyon]

yes

its speed is useless

slow it down to 45km/h and make its charge reach 50, that's it

[limber delta]

Nah, let’s make it 40km overall.

[golden coral]

Yes, you could limit the speed possibly as long as it remains the fastest. But in return, give it normal bleed handling, the charge turn of U6, a lower startup cost on the charge, maybe a bit more agility in general for movement modes as well.

But the point is more so that speed alone does not make carno good.

[dusky surge]

personally don't agree with that, I reckon carno should be fast

[hollow canyon]

its real speed was 45-50km/h. It's too fast in the game

[golden coral]

When everything else about it, isn't that good compared to other playables.

[hollow canyon]

it is fast... too fast

[dusky surge]

yea but like... then its slower than omni lmao

[hollow canyon]

yea, it would be, its charge should let it hit it but normal run - no, not really

[dusky surge]

hell, a 45km/hr carno has little more utility than a cerato

[hollow canyon]

throw ulitility at it after the nerf then if the speed is such a problem

give it loads of runtime, keep a high cost on charge

or just buff it not

idk, idc, either way, it's trash now

[slim dragon]

Every dino in The Isle is MUCH faster than its irl counterpart

Save for Ptera I guess

[golden coral]

Running stego :D

[dusky surge]

i'd actually prefer carno have no cost in terms of stam on charge, i'd think it'd be a cooler idea for carno to use a stamless-dryo dodge style meter to charge

[hollow canyon]

nah

[slim dragon]

rex

[hollow canyon]

Omni is... abour as fast as a Utahraptor could've been at its top speed as per JFD.

[hollow canyon]

Rex currently definitely is, in Legacy before the rework in 2019 it was about the right speed

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure what JFD is... but last I heard utahraptor was nowhere that fast
Closer to 30 km/h top speed, it wasn't really a super fast animal

[hollow canyon]

yeaaaa I thought the same but JFD kind of proved it otherwise

it's a guy who makes animations of movement of dinosaurs

48km/h is kind of stretching it but theoretically it could move that fast and Omni is more leggy than Utah

either way - don't get stuck to that statement so much, Idc whether it gets slower and has other buffs or just gets buffed

it's trash at the moment

[golden coral]

That's an interesting idea. Give it three charges or so, have it be the U6 turn rate (and fix the damage and all that), and have those be the "tag" the target chances? Honestly could change the charge from a long running to a shorter "burst" only, so you'd run after the prey normally, and then try to "lunge" at it to knock it down for a kill?

[hollow canyon]

like literally has like 10 of such awful disadvantages that I can't wrap my mind around it

[slim dragon]

Being fast is literally the only thing that makes carno unique, despite being pug-faced
Removing that from it would make carno into just yet another generic theropod

[hollow canyon]

no, no, no, 45km/h is still fast, then let it move like Sonic when it uses charge

[dusky surge]

i actually wanted it to be 2 charges, 200 damage, charge is a 3 second burst of speed with knockdowns that restricts turn radius. Charges take a minute each to recaharge. Turns the charge to a utility gap-closer, or something to stop fleeing animals from moving and permits carno to use it both in pursuit, as an attack and as a retreat, without leaving it as a "spam-fest" attack like it is now

[golden coral]

Hopefully carno gets some proper buffs again and becomes somewhat good.

[hollow canyon]

but again - don't focus on that so much, I was just saying I wouldn't mind it getting slower if it meant it not being as awful as it is now

[hollow canyon]

that sounds good, idk about that damage, I'd still probably nerf it

also better turn rate and diet

that's it

this thing currently just runs in a straight line, that's all it can do

and it accelerates as if it was dragging a honda civic behind it

[golden coral]

Hm. Could work if normal running agility is good then, so you'd line up while just pursuing, and then doing a short "lunge/charge" sort of. But then I'd lower the charge time to only a second or slightly more, so you don't go too far if you "overshoot" or something. Would this be able to be used from point blank or how would you do that?

[dusky surge]

nah, you'd be able to cancel it by just releasing shift or w, same as rn

still requires a running start

[golden coral]

Hm

[dusky surge]

i'd keep the accel as is, tbh

it's actually cool imho, it's like galli

its one of the few changes i actually liked

[bright briar]

I agree with you generally, not on every points. But people say carno is "trash" or "garbage" is simply not true. I managed to kill 10 ceras within 1 1/2 hour today and one fight was 3 carnos vs 5 ceras with randoms. 4 of them died. Carno got nerfed this patch but it is still duable, if you play it smart and get your ambush right. It is really satisfying to hunt with it because you cant go in braindead as in the last patch. It is much more fun to me atleast. You just need to be more sneaky now and it feels more like a "survival game"

[golden coral]

Carno doesn't even do ambush good. Also no, carno is pretty terrible, but it's no surprise you're killing ceras, what with everyone playing and the absolute majority being far from even average players. Especially since cera is one of carnos only good matchups. And hilariously enough, last patch wasn't braindead due to carno itself, just the bugged hitbox. All that was needed was to fix that, and it would have been perfectly fine, at least more or less so. Also those ceras losing that, especially if they had a body with them at that, would not be the best ceras at all, even if carno do scale decently well in group still.

[alpine plover]

also when it comes to carno vs cera, once a carno has used up a bit of its stam, its no longer up to the carno whether the fight continues lmao

[hearty valve]

carno is so bad rn... ceras dont give me diets so the main food source rn isnt sustainable, i can barely find ai, they need to either fix its diet or make it have better stam or something man idk..

[plucky aspen]

@zinc mortar the otherday i was able to handle 3 troos as a solo beipi. you do one shot them so they can be easy

[rigid tulip]

I agree, for the most part, carno cant escape anything anymore if it has slightly engaged whatsoever. I have been a long time , carno hater but it needs help with its stamina and diet. With that being said, though, without chuff buff, a cera is just instantly dead if it isnt in a group and a carno so much as sees it. Imo carno will never be balanced, it simply isnt possible to balance a large predator that is the fastest thing. It either ends up feeling disabled, or overpowered.

[rigid tulip]

as a 75% carno, I ambushed a full grow utah and instakilled it lmao, its literally the best ambush hunter. but carno does need a stamina buff, it cant run from any threats tbh

[rigid tulip]

in my experience, every time i play carno literally we just walk around the map trying to find anything to kill, and nothing can pose a threat except for 4+ ceras., a stego or deino. may just be bc i play in a group

[golden coral]

Carno doesn't do ambush good. Just because you can run up on an unaware player, does not mean your playable is well designed for ambush. People manage to get ambushed by stegos, so you know, being able to land an ambush on something says very little. And it is far from the best ambush hunter, considering we have omni and deino in the roster, or even pachy for that matter (one who can pin stuff, the other who well, lunges. Both from point blank, both from any movement mode, both able to do so from very concealed positions).

And yes, carnos in groups are pretty scary, due to how good charge is when you actually have a distracted target so you can land it. But you can't really balance for groups like that. Mostly because you need to be viable, preferably good even, solo, so people enjoy playing as that playable in the first place. See what happens to omnis, and possibly troodon when the hype dies down. If they're not good and fun solo, you're not liable to find a pack very often. Same applies to carno, or teno, or any other playable.

[zinc mortar]

its true tho but when i was on free admin server i tested troodon venom with a homie and it took 3 pounces

[hollow canyon]

Utah either DCed or was watching youtube.

Carno is one of the worst ambush animals in the game. It needs a very specific spacing to be able to use the charge, it makes noise when it uses the charge, it's loud, it's tall, it has an awful crouch.

Anyone that gets ambushed by it or plays so poorly to let it land a headshot on them should rethink what they're doing in this game, cause that's just embarassing.

Also - yes, you needed to headshot... a Utah with the charge.

The animal that just had its agility buffed with an animal that can barely turn.

This whole situation screams "skill issue" at the top of its lungs.

Omni is a vastly better ambusher - it has an amazingly fast crouch, it instadeletes anything smaller than itself with the pounce, and it can use it at point blanc.

Deino is the best ambusher in the game by virtue of instadeleting anything half its size and smaller with the lunge which can also be used at point blanc.

Both those carnivores can use their ability from a certain distance to instantly delete a smaller animal.

Carno has to sneak up on something, which it does very, very slowly, stay at just the right distance to where it can run for 3 seconds and press RMB at the last moment right before it reaches the target.

[rigid tulip]

my only point is that carno can actually do that ridiculous damage when it ambushes something, even on something big like a cera

[hollow canyon]

Its ambush is pathetic due to how conditional it is.

[rigid tulip]

i think carno needs a stamina buff and maybe a slight turning radius buff

[hollow canyon]

it can, but every animal can do ridiculous damage with its ability

[hollow canyon]

the latter, I don't think it should have a good stamina

I like the fact that it's vulnerable to predation

alternatively it could get a better acceleration and charge stacks making it rely on stacks rather than stamina to charge.

[rigid tulip]

imo raptor and carno are in a decent place rn, just get rid of raptors no stun on miss pounce, and buff carno's turn or stamina, it feels like ur disabled when ur playing it

thats my main issue with carno

i despise carno and have been a raptor main for a very long time but even i can admit these issues

[hollow canyon]

btw as for the damage - Carno does 300 damage with its charge, 450 with a headshot this is to animals smaller than Carno or slightly larger.

Omni does 445 damage to animals smaller than itself with the pounce

Deino can instantly kill or deal 750 damage with the lunge depending on what it's lunging.

Carno has literally the worst ability for hunting smaller animals out of all of those

Cerato deals more damage with the charged bite than Carno with a charge btw

[keen plover]

[rigid tulip]

the problem with carno is that its essentially the land apex and also the fastest carnivore, in order to balance it like it feels like they have to make it feel disabled

[hollow canyon]

effectively all those make Carno either the second worst ambush hunter after Cera(who's obviously an endurance predator) or the worst because Cerato can actually delete things better with the charged bite than Carno with the charge

[hollow canyon]

the issue with it is that it shouldn't be in the game this early

[rigid tulip]

100% agree, something like allo should have been the first large carnivore

[hollow canyon]

putting a dedicated small game hunter in a game with animals smaller than itself means that it either has to be crippled and butchered up not to dominate the server

[rigid tulip]

significantly easier to balance with a lack of competition

[hollow canyon]

or it's the best playable in the game

[rigid tulip]

exactly my point

[hollow canyon]

if smalls were only a part of the roster and Carno was vulnerable to larger animals like an Allo trying to hug it or a T.rex that could trot it down it would be a different story

[hollow canyon]

I'm aware of that and said it on multiple occassions

Carno should've never beena added this early

[rigid tulip]

yes, carno feels risk free too much, and if it doesnt feel risk free, like u said it feels depressing and clumsy to play

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that Omni and Carno are good btw, Omni gets obliterated by Cerato and Carno is just worse than Cerato in almost every way despite having the upper hand in the direct confrontation if the fight goes the right way for it

I have no intention of touching either of them

[rigid tulip]

we have been able to kill about 3 ceras at once with a raptor pack of around 10

[hollow canyon]

Cerato is vastly better than them in doing EVERYTHING

[rigid tulip]

but its extremely difficult and not worth it

the bleed resist and bite hitbox is crazy

[hollow canyon]

bizarre, they have a high bleed resistance and they start getting further buffs as soon as one of them dies

either way though - 10 Ceratos do stuff much better than 10 omnis

[rigid tulip]

yeah i believe they were fresh adults or something tho because they were only about a foot taller than our adult utahs

[hollow canyon]

they can hunt EVERYTHING but Deino, this dinosaur is ridiculous right now

but tbh, I'd probably only nerf its abilities very slightly, the puke-bite is a bit too strong and its chuffing damage reduction is too strong

it actually feels the best to play out of all the land dinos imo

I think that other ones should be brought up in terms of fun to its level

[rigid tulip]

i personally just hate the pukelock, especially against teno for example

[hollow canyon]

it's dumb

in general it's just badly design, I always imagined that you'd puke after some time after getting bitten not - the moment you get infected you start vomiting your organs out

that's not how infections work

either way let's see where the devs take the game

[tall bronze]

Even the trailer implies it being an over time thing

[hollow canyon]

I feel like the game's balance is the most ridiculous in a long time and it's only covered up by the fact there's more animals in it

so it's less noticeable

but I can't really play this game comfortably anymore anyways after the transition to the new engine so

w/e from me, I'm just hoping it gets better

[tall bronze]

Personally, I don't see balance really settling well until we get Gateway since there's prolly gonna be a bit of rebalancing due to both migrating and biomes actually existing and being good. Carno, Deino

[hollow canyon]

fair

[tall bronze]

As always-

[hollow canyon]

I think it should be in the next update, hopefully we get a longer public stress test

I haven't participated in it because I don't have much time or interest in Evrima, but the final effect of this one is really grating in my opinion

[rigid tulip]

I think that balance may only become good when we get a good "spectrum" on the carnivore food chain. We need things to bridge gaps and create competition. Like something between carno and rex, (why are we getting rex)

[hollow canyon]

yea but tbh

Gateway also helps in that Carno relies on open plains to be competent

it's so good because everyone is out in the open where Carno can utilise its charge

on Gateway there are areas that are outright unplayable to it

[rigid tulip]

facts, spiro is basically only populated along one route, the northwest to south/southwest area

[hollow canyon]

update 6 Carno which needed nerfs really badly

was just bad on Gateway

as per what Stress Testers told me

one of them actually said that Teno vs Carno is unwinnable to Carno there in the right circumstances

because you're never really getting the charge off well

the more obstacles you put in the way the worse Carno does

that's probably the main issue with Carno balance - it performs amazingly in every semi-playable area on Spiro

[keen plover]

If they’re good teno player, even if you ambush them as a good Carno, you’re unlikely to kill them

Any other charge from then on is avoidable and we know how bad Carno is at hit and runs right now. Nevermind its old brawling potential in like update 5

Although you’ll get by on officials. Carno on officials still do fine if they’re competent mainly due to the fact that most players aren’t good

I hope Carno on Gateway can fulfil its role. Against competent players

[limber delta]

i dont want pukelock gone solely because ceras can kill stego quickly

is that an unreasonable thought process? probably. I still stand by it though.

[keen plover]

Isn’t that a reason to remove it 🤨

[keen plover]

Yes 💀

[limber delta]

nah stegos need to perish

[cosmic pelican]

If stegos perish deinos must as well

[keen plover]

idk how Stego has got this hate when Carno & Deino have always been infinitely worse to deal with for the majority of evrima

I get not liking it, but there are worse playables to deal with

[limber delta]

Honestly I have a super secret drinking spot that im gatekeeping where deinos can't get you. So in my case idc about them. Haven't died from one in weeks

[keen plover]

Avoiding them is easy, like Stego. I have a few spots as well where I don't get grabbed. I'd argue them forcing you to go use those spots / take detours to avoid them while crossing is worse than dealing with stegos.

[limber delta]

the thing is you can't really avoid stego when you've found a nice edible body but stegos are so pettied from their existence they'll literally stand by the body until it rots. Not for its own benefit, just to spite you. They're trolls designed to ruin the experience for others.

[keen plover]

Fair. Still would classify carno pre 6.5 and current Cera as worse. Ruins the game as any other playable

[limber delta]

current cera is fine when there's 1 or 2 around. but when center plains is full of 6 you kinda have to leave and risk starving or stay and risk puking... and starving.

For the stego situation, i think they should make herbis puke after staying by a medium-large sized body for too long

[cosmic pelican]

Even if that does happen you as a player have plenty of options. In the current update all carnivores can make a stego think twice about bodyguarding (except carno, who is in just a sad position rn). Even if you dont have the sufficent numbers or enough confidence to fight one pretending to leave is always an option, the stego will get bored eventually. Or if the circumstances let you just look for another body.

[cosmic pelican]

This sounds nice on paper,but in practise all proximity based debuffs are flawed.

"Sucsessfully defended your nest from a large carnivore? Good job, enjoy some nice debuffs for your hard work!"

[rigid tulip]

“All carnivores can make a stego think twice about bodyguarding”

[cosmic pelican]

With the sufficent numbers and skill definetly

Even if not there are still 2 other options to choose from

[limber delta]

You didn't read the part where i said 'until it rots'. They're so spiteful they literally will wait for it to rot. Just so you can't eat it. And 'looking for another body' is usually the difference between life or death. These are just excuses because at the end of the day it's a toxicity problem that needs fixing so that trolls dont make it so hard for everyone else.

[cosmic pelican]

I doubt any stego player will sit in a completely empty field guarding a body until it rots, thats why outsmarting it is such a powerful move.

On the "find another body" solution I specifically mentioned "if the circumstances let you", and even then the enviroment is unpredictable and there will always be some bs deaths.

[dusky surge]

doesn't stuff like, idk, nest incubation on stego take an absurdly long time? So if a stego kills a predator near its nest, it just vomits along with all its babies?

It's not like you can just leave the nest for a few minutes

[rigid tulip]

guys i think maybe stego should not one shot a full grown carno with max hp

at this stage in the game where it has no predators

incoming 35 x emojis

[limber delta]

"I doubt any stego player will sit in a completely empty fueld guarding a body until it rots" oh you naive innocent child 😭

[plucky aspen]

they can only do that if they land a headshot

[rigid tulip]

not like a stego swing is at all calculated, its wide area of effect especcially wehn ur running past it. a headshot will happen very often if it just swings in your general direction when ur running past

[keen plover]

Even if Carno could tank a hit on the head, rn it can't hunt a stego with its kit

[rigid tulip]

they should have something to worry about besides packs of 20 raptors in vc

[plucky aspen]

yeah it can be a little difficult. you're more likely to get a body or tail hit unless you can read it coming. not saying it takes a lot of skill. but it's not entirely skill-less either

[limber delta]

1. Stegos very rarely nest lol. But even then it's not hard to just move nest. But honestly nesting should be faster and less maintenance required anyways, that's off topic though.

[rigid tulip]

i know, but as a last resort food option when you have to fight a stego at least give good carnos a chance. I say this and I am a raptor main who hates carnos

[hallow spire]

@small venture I’m pretty sure they made juvi troodons not have venom so if they die and respawn they won’t come back to the fight and inflict venom and be op. So that was a good decision on the devs part plus troodons grow REALLY fast so it’s not a huge issue for them

[sweet agate]

I've been an avid pachy player til this patch. I've legit not found another pachy in all au servers. Was there a reason they got rid of behind attacks of the pachy and teno?

[regal goblet]

I'm sorry what

We don't have behind attacks for teno anymore?

I can still tailslam and kick?

[sweet agate]

Oh l don't play teno all that much - l heard a lot of complaining about stun being removed and such and assumed they got the same treatment pachy got.

I think lm just going to play a galli. When all they let us do is run and hide, l might as well just be a fast boi

[nova ember]

I've played Beipi a lot lately and absolutely love it. Only issue I'm having is just randomly dying. Happened twice now, both on unofficial servers. Is it a bugg or possibility of an admin slaying me by accident?

[hollow canyon]

it should be gone for far more important reasons, namely - cause it is BROKEN STRONG.

It butchers EVERY ANIMAL THERE IS, not just Stego. WIth the only exception being Deino and Cerato itself - amazing balance.

[narrow lodge]

The problem being, ceras really can't kill a fg stego even with puke lock

Because it only needs one attack to kill them

So it's not even a good reason to keep it

[slim dragon]

What good is it for the stego if it just can't attack at all ?

[narrow lodge]

There's a time frame in which it can attack between pukes, yes I know because I fought plenty of ceras as stego

[slim dragon]

Then it wasn't a pukelock

[narrow lodge]

Then puke lock doesn't exist

Because you literally can't be 100% of the time puking

[slim dragon]

I've seen videos of it happening

Also I'm pretty sure puking also cancels attacks so...

[old hull]

people keep overexagerating over the carno nerfs its fine the only thing i would personally change about it is the bad stamina , the things that made it so broken in the past are gone now so give it decent stam and have it be more like what legacy carno used to be , a fast semi beefy dino that is really quick and runs over things smaller then itslef

[narrow lodge]

I'm pretty sure I was able to get in a single attack in between pukes

[slim dragon]

It really depends on the number of ceras (and possibly the amount of food the attacked person has)
Some people say you need 4 ceras to vomitlock someone, others say you only need 2
But I've never seen a solo cera vomitlock an opponent

[narrow lodge]

I've been attacked by 4 ceras like 4 times, 3 of which they managed to make me puke

Been attacked by fewer ceras so many times I don't bother to count

[dusky surge]

@keen plover unimaginably based feedback lol

[dusky surge]

its not overexaggerated at all, idk what people mean by this, it's literally carried by a broken, terrible map

its an ambush hunter that sucks at ambushing, that's never once been suitable for the ambusher role

[keen plover]

Thanks lol.

[old hull]

and better stamina would take away the one thing keeping it a "bad" ambush hunter

the turning nerf is harsh sure but it finally pushes carno away from being a brawler which that thing should never be doing anyway

[dusky surge]

which is good

it shouldn't BE an ambush hunter

[hollow canyon]

no

it shouldn't have a good stamina

not even more stamina unless stam gets a global buff or something

it should have the better agility with the lower damage on the charge so that it can actually use the fact that it hit something with it

also yes - Carno's nerf was harsh, they effectively took away every buff they gave it over the past year(except one) and nerfed the other things about it even harder

it's the worst it has been in the game's history and it's not stamina that's the issue

it's the fact that no person that isn't playing with a blindfold is getting hit by its charge rn

it's bad out in the open - precisely where it SHOULD BE at its best

[old hull]

hell no carno should never be agile , that was the major deal that made it so goddamn broken before , it should be fast in a straight line and thats it

[keen plover]

🤨 What's the point of being fast in a straight line if you can't hit the prey

[old hull]

you can hit prey just fine if you aim the charge properly dont act like carno is unusable

[dusky surge]

i dont believe carno needs super good agility or accel, but stamina it should have

[keen plover]

Depends on the prey.

[golden coral]

Making it pretty much useless. No thanks, let it have the agility to actually hunt the small and agile prey properly. U6, aside from hitbox bug and lack of start up cost and/or lack of point blank charge, was pretty much how carno should be if its to hunt small game.

[dusky surge]

I would rather carno have agility over damage

Or general ability to hunt

I'd cut the charge damage in half if it would mean it gets a stam buff

[golden coral]

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, if your targets are fast and agile, you need to either match that, or be good at point blank, proper actual ambushing (see deino)

[old hull]

the charge is so powerful if you do hit anything with it you pretty much already won , that combined with the best speed of any land creature are huge benefits for carno to have , a bit more stamina would just allow it to both oppress any smaller dinos it finds and escape anything it dont want to fight , which is exactly what carno should be doing , it should not be brawling with tenos and ceratos or outturning utahs and pachys , that is not what that thing was designed to do

you want to brawl? pick cerato

[dusky surge]

carno's current charge damage MAKES it a brawler lol

[keen plover]

There's another way to lower the brawling capability of Carno if it does have a better agility. The bite speed. You could give it like 200n and make it bite every 1.5 seconds instead of 1 - 1.1 seconds. So all the turn would do is let it hit and run better

While chasing small game better. Although it securing kills might be a bit too difficult with the charge damage being lower. But that's another option

[old hull]

how does an attack you need to get speed and wind up for make something a brawler? lol

[dusky surge]

the best way to play current carno is constant knockdown/damage central within a close range

have you seen how carnos play atm?

[old hull]

ive played it myself and you need to be quite the distance away to even start it , that aint a brawl

[dusky surge]

don't worry about it

knockdowns compensate for that

and the sheer damage output basically means all you wanna do is stay close, wait and charge

ambush? pursuit? it's bad at both

brawling is its best utility

the stamcost makes it terrible for anything but

[old hull]

exactly , so increase the stamina so it can actually pursue

the bad stamina forces it to do nothing but charge things and end fights as fast as possible

also your saying that you dont want carno to be a brawler , but also want its agility increased??

[dusky surge]

i personally dont want the agility increased

i'd prefer its endurance and utility be increased

well, actually, i want its running agility increased, but its standing agility to stay pooe

[hollow canyon]

then it should accelerate fast, it's either or, an animal that does neither well is just trash

no matter how fast it is

unless it's a big game hunter

which Carno ISN'T

[olive zinc]

1. There is no reason Cera should be able to play a hunting playstyle. It's not a generalist, and if you want to actively hunt you should pick something else.
2. No matter how fast Cera hunger drain is, it apparently isn't enough, because you constantly see packs of 4-5 Ceras steamrolling plains areas.
3. Fix the damn Cera attack hitbox. It's insane from how far away and from which weird angles the Cera can bite you.

[dusky surge]

all these points are valid, but damn that hitbox especially

i've seen cera literally bite out its ass

[limber delta]

has a developer actually stated recently that carno is meant to hunt small game or is that something the community made up to justify buffing it back into top land carni? Carno was always better at hunting either unaware targets or medium sized targets (teno, and now cera). Omni is the better carni for killing small game thanks to its pin.

[golden coral]

"Stalk the plains as the terrifying Carnotaurus, the absolute nightmare of every small critter as this ravenous mouth-on-legs blitzes across the island." I'm guessing this from the trello. Talks about being a plains critter, and well, apparently going after small critters.

But you're not wrong, carno has always been better at hunting similar sized or larger game, even back in legacy, than smaller critters. It's a playable that seems to not quite be designed in any proper niche. One thing is said, another is designed, a third is what it has to do because nothing else works, and so on.

[limber delta]

Link?

Carno honestly has a perfect niche in hunting juves and medium sized prey. The only dinos smaller than it that can easily see and escape it are full grown omnis and gallis, and that’s not even considering when there’s more than 1 carno

[golden coral]

https://trello.com/c/ibndsGsg Does this work?

Trello

Carnotaurus

Stalk the plains as the terrifying Carnotaurus, the absolute nightmare of every small critter as this ravenous mouth-on-legs blitzes across the island. Whilst it lacks maneuverability of the nimble Omniraptor, its insane speed and ability to knock others down more than makes up for it. Be sure to look left and right before crossing the street!

Labels

Playable, Carnivore, Implemented

[nova ember]

The only issue I had with pre 6.5 carno was the hitbox. Speaking from being the receiving party lol. I was getting hit from a couple meters away every time. Haven't played carno in the update yet, so not sure how bad it is supposedly.

[golden coral]

I think the main issue is that carno is just so badly designed. It can't pursue well due to lack of stamina and agility to actually keep up with the target. It can't ambush well because charge requires a minimum distance, and running movement as well as makes sound, meaning it's hardly a surprise attack unless your target is just completely unaware. (which granted, most people are very unattentive and generally pretty bad at the game, after all, stegos have successfully "ambushed" people, as has trikes in legacy). So overall, carno can't do either very well, and relies more on the targets being bad than the carno being good. And because we have this, we also get the various opinions on what carno should do and how it should function, because it's not really well defined, much less designed. Cera is a bit clearer, though it also currently suffers from "scavenger or active hunter", hence we got various opinions on nerfing it's stamina and speed, or adjusting the defensive buff or bacteria and so on.

[golden coral]

Hitbox and no cost on startup/accel (point blank charges weren't really fun to deal with, not in combination with the turn on charge. I'd say either or should have been kept. Turn radius for pursuit carno, point blank charge for ambush carno).

[limber delta]

That was 3 years ago, no? And the trello itself implies it’s an ambush hunter “Be sure to look left and right before crossing the street!”. I don’t think it’s badly designed at all, and it does very well. Carno has never relied on being skilled as much as other dinos (the last few updates should’ve made that obvious, it’s always been a brain dead pick), it’s the only dino with a continuous hitbox attack. And that’s okay. Not every dino has to be as skill intensive as omni. Not have as much utility as cera. You give those to carno and you end up back at update 4-5 carno that was still dominant even without broken hitboxes.

Cera is jacked in scavenger utility but that doesn’t mean it should just never hunt anything its own size. My only issue is that it can almost run down its prey. So it should have less max stamina and more stamina regen to compensate. So it can still clear large distances in search of bodies, but enemies can lose it easier as it will have to rest sooner and lose line of sight

[golden coral]

The only playable that has ever required any form of skill is teno, everyone else is more or less mindless (omni is one of the most mindless playables there are). So that's... not saying much. And no, it is badly designed, I explained how it's bad at either option. It does not do well, aside from when its targets are bad, which is not much of an excuse. And sure, I don't know how much the trello holds weight, but that doesn't really change much. And I don't think it implies ambush there, more so just you know, look around you before going out on the open plains, which makes sense since a carno out there would chase you down.

Carno needs to be good at something, sure it doesn't need as much utility (too much, cera is quite overtuned and could do with some nerfs, or I guess buff everyone else possibly), but it needs to have a role and niche and be capable at it. If it's meant to be a terror to smaller critters, then it needs to be that way. If it's meant to ambush, then it needs to be good at that.

And sure, cera should be somewhat capable at hunting, but not as good as it is, and certainly not in the way of using vomit lock (especially since we have no pachy stun lock anymore), to do so. And it shouldn't get to both be extremely powerful on defense and a capable hunter. But cera being overtuned is an entirely different can of worms as it were.

Carno at 5.5 was pretty bad to say the least for that matter. Carno before then might have been good, which well, it makes sense. We have a small game hunter in a small game roster (aside from stego and deino, who are both quite the issue, or at least deino is, in their own way). You can't really go "Carno shouldn't be dominant in this roster" when it's kind of meant to be. Which doesn't mean it has to be op, just that if things 500-1T sees a carno, they should probably be quite terrified, not go "Oh, no big deal".

U6 carno would have been fine, if the broken hitbox hadn't been a thing, and there'd been some limitations to being able to just spam the charge over and over. As well as a look at how much damage the charge does. You actually had a small game hunter that was capable of hunting the said small game properly, more or less at least.

[limber delta]

You’re trying to force it into a playstyle based on a 3 year old statement. Not even by rebalancing it but by straight up buffing it. Update 5.5 carno was amazing. I have zero idea why you think otherwise. 6.5 carno is less dominant but it’s still a threat. You sacrifice survivability of cera for combat potential.

[golden coral]

I am not trying to force it into anything, I am pointing out that it currently isn't good at anything, and has no real niche, which it should have. And what else should we go by if not statements and so on? 5.5 wasn't good, no. Pretty sure we still had terrible turn on charge back then, which means you don't land it on anything vaguely aware. (Carno also has extra bleed vunerability, for no good reason really, it should get that reverted). 6.5 carno is just bad, that's all there is to that. Cera is in 90% of things the superior playable. So you don't really get combat potential, or at least ceras is very close behind, plus everything else cera has.

How you can think a playable is good when it's main mechanic/"gimmick" relies entirely on the target being a brick, is beyond me.

But I could be wrong on patches so maybe it wasn't 5.5, all I know is that before we got U6 charge turn, you either had a group (in which carno does great due to distracted targets) or you relied on the target being afk, to land any charge.

[limber delta]

The reduced charge turn was the only thing that made it balanced. As an adult 6.5 carno is amazing. It can kill anything smaller than it. The bad thing about it is getting to adult because its diet is ass right now.

[golden coral]

No, no it wasn't. Current carno sucks, it's that simple. It is by no means amazing when it can't do anything well.

[limber delta]

It can do many things well

[golden coral]

And it can't kill anything smaller, unless that smaller let's it, or well, happens to be a juvie.

No, it can not. I gave you examples of how it struggles in both roles.

[limber delta]

This isn’t league of legends. Not everything has a role

[golden coral]

The charge turn from U6 actually made carno vaguely competent at hunting small game. Changing that again made carno back to earlier 5.5-5 (back then) where charge becomes useless.

[golden coral]

.... it's a survival game where things generally have niches/roles. And should be well designed to be capable at something, since every dino in a sense is a "class", that determines your playstyle and all.

On top of perks and diets and things that also allows you to adjust for your "class" in some ways.

But the main point is still that carno struggles at being good at anything, since it's design is fundamentally questionable.

If you want a good ambusher, you need to be able to attack from point blank so you don't need to give yourself away before your attack. If you want something to chase and pursue, it either needs the stamina to follow (like cera), or the agility to keep up and catch the target before it runs out of steam.

[limber delta]

And carnotaurus is a carnivore that hunts juves and medium sized prey. Good job we found it a role.

[golden coral]

Currently, deino, omni, even pachy does ambushing great. Cera does endurance/persistence really well for some reason. Carno... does not really do either of those well, nor does it do pursuit well.

[hollow canyon]

that's literally the description of the bloody thing describing what's it was always meant to do, it's repeatedly portrayed going after small things, up to Teno-sized

[golden coral]

Ah yes, it can hunt helpless and useless juvies. Great. So can every other playable, most of them far better than carno. Medium sized, sure, if you want it to be a brawler, in which case we could design it to be better at that, such as path 5 or earlier carnos that were good at brawling. But why would we turn carno into a brawler when we got allo and alberto and others coming. Carno is not a "tough" playable, it's quite fragile.

[limber delta]

It’s already a good brawler.

[hollow canyon]

it's a good brawler that gets outbrawled by animals its own size and smaller

[golden coral]

... It's capable, not neccesarily competent. Also only really vs cera, most likely because cera is new and people are not good at it at all. If you want it to hunt medium sized prey, it'd have to get better, since mid sized prey are larger than carno. Cera and teno are not mid sized, allo and alberto, maia, and others are.

[limber delta]

You mean cera and teno? The things it bullies constantly and literally makes a living on?

[vital gulch]

Cera bite range is BROKEN please fix this

[golden coral]

And current carno, I don't see doing well vs those, honestly. Maybe maia, but well, it can probably tank and go "bye bye" since it's most likely too heavy to stun, much less knockdown.

[golden coral]

Teno bullies carno, cera can alos bully carno just as well.

[hollow canyon]

Teno stomps it in a brawl, Cerato abuses its turn and weak bite damage in close quarters too

idk what you're talking about

[golden coral]

I'm sure people are aware. And hopefully this time around, we get fixes more often than once every now and then.

[limber delta]

They buffed carno’s turn two updates ago. Cera doesn’t dodge its charge.

[hollow canyon]

link to the update where they said they buffed that

2 updates ago there were no stat changes

[limber delta]

5.5 and 6.0.

[hollow canyon]

they buffed the charge turn rate

[golden coral]

And then they completely removed it. First in U6 when charge got its good turn, and then they removed that good turn as well, now in 6.5

[hollow canyon]

that doesn't help in brawling

5.5 had no balance changes

idk whether you're lying or you're misinformed but it's either of the two

[golden coral]

Carno U6 got bad turn radius on everything but charge that finally was good. And well, we can't have good things, so we lost that too. And now carno is just... well, it exist I guess.

[limber delta]

They buffed carnos turn when charging. Might have been 5.0

[hollow canyon]

idk link it or it didn't happen

[hollow canyon]

that's 6.0

charging turn buff does NOT help it brawl

[golden coral]

That was U6, if you're talking about the buffed turn radius for charge. And in compensation, every other movement got worse. And now we lost that turn radius in U6.5.

[limber delta]

I play carno in 6.5. Pretty easy tbh

[golden coral]

Sure, because 99% of your encounters are terrible players.

[hollow canyon]

try playing Cerato then and see what "Easy" means

[golden coral]

I can jump on omni and do extremely well, despite rarely playing it.

So not sure that says all that much to be honest. The only playable you can really do well and terrible with is teno.

[limber delta]

So carno needs to be catered towards the 99% terrible players like it always has been?

[golden coral]

No, all playables should be balanced for good players and their results. Most playables are, as I said, mindlessly easy to play. Hence most players never get very good at all. Teno players tend to be the ones you can clearly see the effect of good vs bad on.

[hollow canyon]

1. better diet
2. damage resistance near bodies
3. vomit lock
4. higher dps
5. better nuke-damage
6. better stamina
7. better turn rate
8. vastly better bleed resistance
9. better fracture resistance
10. no cost on the special ability
11. better swimming
12. better fighting capabilities in the water

as opposed to - 1. moving faster 2. more hp

[golden coral]

Also I'm pretty sure omni has been more "catered" to, than carno has. Or at least they're not much different.

[limber delta]

Then have carno’s charge be a click rather than a hold.

[golden coral]

Both playables being very easy, and alternating between stupidly op and rather useless, for varios reasons.

[unborn iris]

It is actually much better if you use it as a click right now.

[golden coral]

Not sure how that would make much of a difference, unless you change how charge works in general?

[hollow canyon]

Omni has been hard buffed this update, it would've mattered if map wasn't overrun by Ceratos that have an easy time with Omnis(as they should)

[golden coral]

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean with click here.

[hollow canyon]

no

[golden coral]

I know. Omni will most likely go back to being stupidly op again, when people are tired of ceras and the rest. Though maybe there'll be troodons too, they seem... well, interesting to say the least.

[limber delta]

Nope. You have to click it within 0.5 seconds of hitting the target or carno trips and breaks its leg.

[golden coral]

What? So you want a reaction on "impact"?

[hollow canyon]

if it wasn't catered to towards the 99% terrible players it would've stopped getting nerfed a few updates ago

[golden coral]

Because I've seen ideas about headswings instead of charge

[limber delta]

That way carno players doesn’t abuse its constant hitbox

[golden coral]

Which would be interesting, and might be better vs small game if carno also got good movement in general, so it'd chase/pursue and then try to knockdown with a headswing to finish the target off with a kill.

[hollow canyon]

just make it break leg when it presses rmb regardless I'd say

[golden coral]

They don't. There's no issue with a constant hitbox, the issue was how wide it was.

[hollow canyon]

and make it get a skull fracture evertime it bites

[golden coral]

Which was fixed. Unfortunately everything else also got nerfed and here we are.

[limber delta]

That’s just playing omni

[hollow canyon]

???

[limber delta]

Punished whenever it uses rmb in a fight

[hollow canyon]

idk what reality you live in but that's some different world

[hollow canyon]

no?

what are you on about?

the recovery after the missed pounce has been removed

[golden coral]

Probably the hitbox bug/issue where you can be hit while latched on

[hollow canyon]

are sure you're playing 6.5?

[golden coral]

Which is well, most likely something that'll be fixed

[limber delta]

pounces stego phases through it and flies off a cliff

[hollow canyon]

cause it seems like you're playing update 3.5 or something

[golden coral]

Ah yes, pounce is buggy, this is nothing new.

When it works, you're one of the best and most lethal playables.

But honestly, remove pounce, on both troodon and omni, give them normal bites, or a "clamber on" if that might bug out less.

That'd probably balance them out to be honest.

[limber delta]

Oh ok so let’s make carno break its leg when it charges only half the time

[golden coral]

So you want to introduce "bugs" to the other playables because... why?

[limber delta]

I don’t I’m just making a comparison

[golden coral]

No, no you're not. You're just... not making any sense.

[limber delta]

Many other playables gets punished for landing a skillshot. So carno’s stamina is fair.

[golden coral]

Stamina aside, there's all the other issues. Though carno could need some better stamina as it stands. That or lower the cost on charge to 5% or so. But again, U6 aside from bugs were fine, so return carno there, add 5% cost on charge activation, add a second or two more for runtime before you can use charge, and it'd be good.

[hollow canyon]

but lets keep the vomit lock because it might be broken but idk, it should still be kept in the game, right?

[limber delta]

Higher running stamina but even more costly charges to make it fair

[golden coral]

No, because then you can't chase. So what's the point then.

If we worked from U6, we'd have a good pursuit carno that actually can do it's job, and would be unable to spam charges if we added some tiny restrictions. And if needed, just nerf the damage on the charge a bit as well.

[limber delta]

If this is referring to my stego comment. You need more comedy sense.

[hollow canyon]

no

it wasn't

[limber delta]

Then you’re waffling.

[golden coral]

Vomit lock needs to go, no matter what else.

That or give pachy back stun lock and let's see how the ceras like that :p

[hollow canyon]

no, I'm not

[golden coral]

I'll trade the tenos and carnos wellbeing just to see the ceras be entirely incapable of doing anything to survive a pachy encounter xD

[limber delta]

Next you’ll say something else off topic like hypsi’s blind

[golden coral]

It needs to be a shotgun and not a sniper style spit xD

[hollow canyon]

not like you're being very responsive to any on-topic statements

aside from "Carno good, great amazing"

when it's the very opposite

[limber delta]

I am very sorry I didn’t give you my undivided attention. I have a one at a time policy.

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't really matter, when you discussed it with me you ended up saying the same things

well maybe minus the completely irrelevant comments about Omni working like it did prior to 6.5

but I guess you're just unaware that the pounce recovery was removed

[limber delta]

“Prior to 6.5” oh you poor child:(

[hollow canyon]

like this comment - completely irrelevant to what was being said to you

you're being told that the changes you're mentioning have been reverted

and your response is "it's good anyways"

[hollow canyon]

I'm not getting into your level of discussion

[limber delta]

It is. Better than cera on a combat perspective.

[golden coral]

No, cera is better overall for combat. Vomit lock is pretty much superior to charge.

[hollow canyon]

it might be better than Cerato in a direct confrontation

Cerato is vastly better with regard to everything else

[golden coral]

Carno does have the advantage in that it can force a confrontation, cerato can not, as easily at least.

[hollow canyon]

it handles every other match up better

[golden coral]

But vomit lock is... well, it kind of ends the fight. More so than most things do at least.

[limber delta]

4 carnos can facetank a stego?

[hollow canyon]

no, but Ceratos can

[limber delta]

Exactly. They each have different uses.

[hollow canyon]

like?

Cerato has good match ups against everything barring Deino and maybe Carno itself

Carno has a good match up against what? Cerato and maybe Tenonto at best?

but not 1v1 cause in that case any Tenonto that can play this thing stomps it?

[limber delta]

Cerato has a 100% failure rate against nearly anything that doesn’t want to fight it

[hollow canyon]

no, not really, it has an amazing stamina and can rundown a Tenonto which HAS TO fight it, it can also rundown other animals including a Carno if they don't have a full stamina

it has a great stamina recovery and a large stamina pool for an animal its size

Carno can pick its fight against things as long as it has a full stamina which it needs to travel

[limber delta]

It can’t rundown a tenonto and carno can just escape into the tree line. But I agree that it needs less max stamina but more stamina regen so it loses prey easier

[hollow canyon]

because it starves otherwise, people have been complaining about that even when it was objectively overpowered like hell

[golden coral]

Body down = deino can be fought. Probably easier than stego even, even if you can't vomit lock it due to well, 500 damage bite only.

[hollow canyon]

where do you get this information from? Tenonto has less stamina

[golden coral]

If you want to talk combat, then you need to well, have combat.

[golden coral]

Ah yes, lets have the carno, the plains animal, hide in a forest, where cera does way better anyway.

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto travels around 100 m less than Cerato

at a marginally faster speed

it dies if it tries running away

[limber delta]

So we just make carno run into an invisible wall when it touches the forest biome?

[golden coral]

It certainly does not need less stam, if anything it needs a bit more, plus you know, being good. But maybe if carno was good, we'd be able to see if stamina is an issue or not.

[hollow canyon]

no, we make it do well enough in the plains to where it doesn't run into the biome where it's very vulnerable

[golden coral]

No, we make carno good, so a cera doesn't want to engage a carno unless it has a body to stay nearby, or something.

[hollow canyon]

it shouldn't even go there, if it runs into something like an Allo in the future there it simply gets deleted on the spot

[limber delta]

Carnos always ran to the forest when they don’t want to fight. I hope you’ve played long enough to see Omni pack vs carno

[hollow canyon]

sure but it SHOULDN'T be doing that, that speaks to the poor design of the game

[golden coral]

Yes, and that's because carno bad.

[hollow canyon]

in the future Carno will rightly be dying if it runs into a place where ambush predators larger than itself can take it down

Carno's strategy should be staying the hell away from any places it can get ambushed in

[golden coral]

As we've kept pointing out to you. Carno should be the dominant power in the plains, not run away. The fact it has/had to, is because again, it's badly designed and not a very good playable.

[limber delta]

Carnos can easily avoid trees in evrima. It’s not like legacy when they’d get stuck for 10s whenever they touch a tree

[golden coral]

No, here you just have all the logs on the ground... xD

[hollow canyon]

it's not about getting stuck, it's about going into a place where you can get ambushed

[limber delta]

Any dino gets stuck on those. Remove logs tbh

[golden coral]

Agreed on that one, if nothing else!

[slim dragon]

Carno should be made into a forest ambusher, so herbis can finally sleep well knowing they're never gonna get eaten by a carno

[limber delta]

Hard to ambush a carno in the tree line when it’s zoomed past you and is running away before you even realized what it was

[golden coral]

Every single log I could find, my stego got stuck on xD

[hollow canyon]

it really isn't

you see it coming at you and you run at it right before it starts passing it

it can't stop, it would start sliding and still move towards you

and then you just ask it for huggies

[limber delta]

No one plays in the forest anyway. All it exists for is afk growing and running away into because the tracking system is ass

[hollow canyon]

Carno has 0 business going into the woods, if it does that - the game is doing something wrong

[hollow canyon]

at the moment, because we have an awful map

one that's actually amazing for Carno

next update we're moving to Gateway

[golden coral]

Part of the issue why carno is seen as "too good", because well, we only have open plains.

[hollow canyon]

Carno is viable in very limited number of places on that map

it struggles to use the charge in most spots and is forced to brawl

[golden coral]

Cycads vs carno xD

[hollow canyon]

it was trash even on 6.0 - the update where it was completely overpowered and broken and needed nerfs asap

although admittedly the map was not yet ready and most action took place iirc in highlands where Carno was just doing poorly due to the environment

Carno is not good now and it will keep getting worse as time goes on, first because of the map and then because more and more animals that are out of its hunting range will be getting added to the game

I don't even like the bloody thing and I doubt I will be playing it again since Cerato came out but this thing will be really bad when more of the roster comes out

[limber delta]

Any dino that can speed down anything smaller than it and immediately do half of its damage is good. Doesn’t matter about its swim speed or thirst rate. It has a hard time growing. That’s it. As an adult it isn’t hard to find AI or omni/cera organs that immediately fill you from 0-100

[hollow canyon]

I don't care about a Carno when I play something smal

I actively ran into their packs as a Dryo and juvie Utah

they can't kill small things, they don't turn well enough

and that was back when Carno turned better than now

[limber delta]

The worst thing about it is when you cringe at its disgusting revamped juve-subadult running animations

[hollow canyon]

I really don't think that's the worst thing about it

I don't think Carno is a danger when you're small either

it's the biggest threat when you're slightly smaller than it

e.g. Cerato, Teno, as it can actually land hits on you

[limber delta]

Id be okay with the 60% sub carnos having both more speed and stamina than omnis again if they changed the disgusting running animation

[hollow canyon]

no

[golden coral]

No, all things matter, since we need to look at all playables in their entirety. Also speed does not matter if you can not hit the target. Which carno struggles with. But the charge may or may not do too much damage, depends on how it should work. I'd be down for limiting the damage so it's more of a pursue and catch tool for the small and agile game, and less used for raw damage. Could up the normal bite a little to compensate, so it can kill confirm the small stuff easily still.

[hollow canyon]

it was like that last update

sub carno was more dangerous than adult Carno

it was dumb, very, very dumb

[thin mantle]

Genuinely the worst part about Carno is that charge narrows its balancing options severely

[hollow canyon]

no more speed and stam for the sub carno

[hollow canyon]

dumb mechanic

[thin mantle]

It has to be this big dumb slow turning buss unless that ability is garbage

Which I honestly prefer because at least it would be fun to play

[limber delta]

It can hit targets easily. Not everyone is a 100% omni/galli watching all around them all of the time

[thin mantle]

Everything can outturn charge by just going left or right

[golden coral]

No, it can not. Again ,you're operating on completely unaware targets. I operate on the players being good and knowing what they're doing.

[hollow canyon]

if someone isn't watching all around them all the time - they're playing the wrong game

[golden coral]

That's the thing. You're catering carno to terrible players. I am "designing" it vs good players.

[thin mantle]

I was a 60% Cera in the open and I managed to escape an adult Carno because he literally couldn’t do damage to me when he closed range

I even got charged

[hollow canyon]

Carno is a dumb animal

[limber delta]

There’s a reason the developers made you unable to look behind you when drinking or eating

[thin mantle]

Very

[hollow canyon]

thankfully

being able to have a better awareness while drinking and eating than by standing was such a dumb thing about this game

but yea I don't remember being ambushed by Carno even with that change

[thin mantle]

Doesn’t it just make players who suck at ambushing have better odds because they don’t actually have to conceal themselves?

[hollow canyon]

I think I did get ambushed by the ultimate ambush predator once because of that - that is Pachy

[thin mantle]

Plus meat chunking negates the whole mechanic

[limber delta]

I don’t know why you assume any player that dies to a carno is bad. The ones I kill are usually good but made one or two mistakes

[hollow canyon]

idk, I'd stop every while eating every now and then and look around

so yea if you're just going towards me I will see you

but if someone does a good job at sneaking up like that Pachy

[thin mantle]

At that point the mechanic is fairly redundant

[hollow canyon]

yea ambushing is doable

[thin mantle]

Especially since chunking is a thing

[hollow canyon]

no, not really

[hollow canyon]

I think that works only for carnivores but yea it is a bit ugh

[thin mantle]

Works for herbis too

They can also break chunks off of edible plants

[hollow canyon]

oh wait yea

you're right

still though - you can't turn around while doing that

[thin mantle]

Well, it takes roughly 1.5 seconds

[hollow canyon]

meanwhile back in the day you could see all around you without anyone knowing where you're looking

[hollow canyon]

still more than never

[thin mantle]

True

[hollow canyon]

because that's exactly what it used to be - never

the thing that was eating was harder to sneak up on than something that was just standing there looking all around

which was an extremely dumb thing

[golden coral]

Ah yes, and that's... not the best decision they ever made. It only made solo play worse, and "catered" to bad players as it were. Also that is nullfiied when you have a partner anyway. The biggest killer there is the time it takes to stop eating, which was already a thing before the camera lock anyway.

[thin mantle]

I don’t really mind it that much, it’s just absurdly clunky atm

[hollow canyon]

meh, I only play solo and I think it was a good idea

[hollow canyon]

idc, I actually have fun with it

[thin mantle]

It really is just a crutch

[hollow canyon]

when I was drinking last time I was thinking how to position myself so as to see any possible Deino comming

[golden coral]

Because I know how the charge works (since that's what I was talking about, the ability to land the charge on someone, which is far more on the target being bad, than you being good). And because I know that most players are quite bad. Maybe the ones you find are average, but that's still not that impressive.

[thin mantle]

Charge can be dodged by most animals holding A or D

[limber delta]

Most players play solo. That’s why on first glance carno seems bad in 6.5. But bring a partner and it doesn’t matter what agility your prey has they can’t cover enough distance to escape 2 charges

[golden coral]

This would be useful if you could actually see them coming in the first place.

[golden coral]

The thing is, you can't balance for groups. You have to balance for solo. Otherwise you'll not find others to group with in the first place. This goes for any playable.

[hollow canyon]

was shallow water so they wouldn't be able to instagib me anyways

[golden coral]

So saying "sure, cera/carno/teno is good in a large group", is ... not really helpful if they are not good solo, and thus people playing just don't keep doing so for one reason or another.

[hollow canyon]

Honestly I don't think Carno should be able to group

no matter how nerfed it gets

[limber delta]

This is just blatant lying. For example Omni is literally designed to be a pack hunter.

[hollow canyon]

it becomes OP when there's more of them, instantly

[golden coral]

So no point there then xD No idea why you like the camera lock, could have just added looking this way or that while eating/drinking, or stop eating/drinking when looking around. Or just a quick stop from eating/drinking so you don't just stand there. We can have the camera lock, if there's some way to actually react to what you do still percieve, so you don't just stand there waiting for a few seconds or so.

[golden coral]

No, it's not lying at all. A solo omni is viable. It can survive on it's own, it does not require a partner or a pack to be a good playable. Are you missing out, yes, because it's designed to work well in packs. Can you do well as solo omni, yes, because pin.

[limber delta]

Easier said that done. Just because you’re not in a group together doesn’t mean you can’t fight together

[hollow canyon]

it could've gotten me if it came from where I couldn't see it, I needed to see it to know where to run to keep it stragith behind me

[golden coral]

So, a solo carno needs to be good. And even in a group, they should be good at their given role/niche, not just good because charge only works well when the target is distracted. (also the smaller, agile critters can still juke, it's mostly the larger things like teno and cera that suffers)

[hollow canyon]

I think that eating should make you vastly more vulnerable so I like how it currently is

[golden coral]

Then you'd still just be looking that way, camera lock or no. I just don't see it adding much, only making things more bothersome. It wasn't needed at that, people still got ambushed, after all, people got charged back in 5.5 and so on.

[hollow canyon]

also - I did get attacked while drinking but it was just a Beipi

[hollow canyon]

charge or pounce or anything else, it's a good thing, people are far more vulnerable when they eat or drink which is how it should be, those should always be the prime times to attack someone

I like it very much how it is right now

[golden coral]

True, they should be, but I'd argue they already were. Now it's just exaggerated, especially since you're also vunerable due to the time it takes to stop eating/drinking and start reacting. Maybe one or the other would be good, but not both at the same time.

[hollow canyon]

no

they were not, they were harder to get than people that were not eating

at least based on how I felt while eating

stereoscopic vision all around me while no one knows where I'm looking

[golden coral]

Doesn't help if you see me if you can't react in time :p

[limber delta]

Even in legacy carno was not good at hunting solo. Carno can pick whatever fight it wants. Legacy giga had a weaker version of that privilege and it was beyond overpowered because some dinos just straight up inevitably died if they got in the line of sight of a toxic giga.

Let’s say dino A and dino B are 2 different species. If dino A can’t defeat or escape dino B, C, D, E, F and G. It’s effectively useless. Suchomimus was so unpopular in legacy because it died whenever a giga saw it. No matter what. Acro was so popular because it could kill almost anything smaller than it that it saw.

But this only operates on a 1v1 scale. Because even though a sucho could defeat an allo, it couldn’t escape or defeat 3 allos.

This is the fundamental issue with balancing carno for solo play. Because carno’s speed cuts out the ‘escape’ option for anything smaller than it, so it needs poor agility and stamina to provide a glimmer of hope. At a balance perspective you should expect to escape from one carno easily, but two carnos should be a challenge. Compare this with cera. Without the raw speed of carno, you have no better shot at catching a utah as one cera than you would have as 5 ceras. Or 10. Or 50. Because Omni can just run in a straight line

[hollow canyon]

nah, Legacy Giga was the second slowest animal in the game

anything could've picked a fight with it, Giga could just endurance hunt a lot of things

[limber delta]

Only in sprint speed. It had the best trot speed if I remember rightly

[hollow canyon]

but there were ways of losing it like walking through the swamps or something

[hollow canyon]

it had like the 5th best trot iirc

but it endurance hunting required the other thing to move in a predictable way kind of

or do the

[limber delta]

The only one I can think of that comes close to giga’s trot is (ironically) acro

[hollow canyon]

sprint a little trot a little thing

[hollow canyon]

Acro trotted faster

Dilo trotted just as fast, Galli was faster, Maia was faster

and some more, I don't remember it from top of my head rn

Giga had a fast trot but the things that were really vulnerable to it where things like Sucho, Para(who had no trot at all, I mean they did but it was as slow as walk of most animals)

if you ran at full speed the whole time and logged out Giga was not catching you

but yea that was a dumb way of surviving it

[limber delta]

The issue is none of these were close in power to giga. Many mid tiers could get ran down and killed by giga

[hollow canyon]

ehhh some of them but idk about many

Allo and Cerato had such large stamina pools that if they ran the whole time they could get away rather easily unless they went in a direction Giga could predict

it was all down to whether you could lose it at some point

if you couldn't you were likely to die

[limber delta]

That’s what I did as sucho but if another creatures existence LITERALLY FORCES YOU TO LEAVE THE GAME that speaks VOLUMES about how overpowered it was

[hollow canyon]

Sucho is oof

no trot at all, about as fast as Giga

it wasn't balanced well

same as Para - awful trot, awful stamina regen on top of that

just an overnerfed animal

those were prime targets for Giga

[limber delta]

Alberto, diablo, alberto, trike, sucho, para, subrex (since dondi decided to make that a viable playable LOL) and allo (if it used up a bit of its stam already) were all able to be 100% easy killed by a giga that was literally just holding the w key. No skill required.

The point being if a creature can’t escape OR defeat A SINGLE other species, it’s effectively useless. Even if it’s just one animal.

Since there’s nothing you can do to avoid dying to it.

[hollow canyon]

I've played Allo and never had an issue with that, Diablo was a very tough pickings it had a marginally faster speed, slow trot, a large stamina pool which it regenerated extremely fast, if it played it correctly catching it was borderline impossible, Alberto was not balanced at all, Trike was catchable easily cause it was an apex

[hollow canyon]

nah, there was quite a few things that could've been done imo

[golden coral]

Carno was pretty fine solo, but yes, it worked well in groups. Though I'm pretty sure there were other, better playables for that too. But well, that's legacy. We all know legacy was terribly balanced (see para, pachy, cera for bad ones, and giga for a pretty op playable). So that means very little. Carno can pick what fights it wants, which is no doubt good. But that's only one part of a playable. You need to look at the whole of it. I am saying carno isn't good at any given role, it should therefor be adjusted and made good at something. Be it a pure ambusher, pursuit, small, mid, or large game. And so on. Nothing of what you point out there with the sucho example is anything new, you're not wrong there. But that does not mean much. Things can and do avoid carno, the issue is that they are too good at it. Carno is not the threat it should be. I completely agree everything must be viable, but how it is viable, and how it handles things, are something else to discuss. I think smaller game should juke or otherwise have ways to evade carnos, but they should struggle and be terrified of a carno if they meet one in open plains. Same way almost everything but another apex should be terrified of a rex, but well, they can avoid it.

Well, no, a solo such dies to three allos. A solo carno dies to three ceras. A solo cera dies to three carnos. No question that, at some point the numbers will win due to sheer attrition and all that. But... that is also not quite relevant to the main point of if carno is good, much less well designed, which has been the main point the entire discussion. I simply pointed out that all playables have to be viable, good, and preferably fun, on their own. Otherwise you won't have any solo players to actually group with. If omni is outright terrible solo, and massively unfun, then you won't get omni packs in the first place. You should be able to survive a carno solo yes, the question is how easy or hard it should be and how you should go about it.

[hollow canyon]

but yea bumping Giga's trot to 750 may have been pushing it too much but then again Giga hunting this way was intended

[golden coral]

There is no issue with balancing carno for solo. The speed does not cut out the escape, since as you mentioned, agility and other things also factor in. Or using terrrain, a burrow or rock, or omnis "scramble" up a tree. The issue was never that x shouldn't be able to survive carno, only that carno should have a good or bad matchup vs x. Good meaning it's successful at hunting it, bad the opposite obviously. You should not escape a single carno easily at all, if you're small game, it should be one of your worst matchups. If there's two, you probably will die, as with numbers as it were.

Cera can endurance hunt (and with that many ceras, cut the omni off possibly, but sure, a single omni can escape, but it can escape carno too. It should by far struggle much more vs the carno than the cera, obviously). And it probably has a greater chance hitting the omni in the first place, than the carno does. Also the omni can bleed the carno, not so much for the cera. Catching is only "part" of it. Omni has great agility now, it won't be "caught" easily, where it should be. And that's the issue. Carno is not good at it's job, and that's the problem. That has been the problem the whole time. It has speed, but not much to do with that speed. While cera may lack that speed, but is great in almost every other way.

You can give carno poor stamina and agility, but you can't do it to the level where it's no longer a proper threat to the things that should fear the sight of a carno, even if they come in smaller groups. 2-3 omnis/pachies (and preferably far more gallis, because well, galli run), should fear a solo carno. That does not mean they should die outright, just that they should see it and go "no thank you" and take their leave. If the carno comes after the omnis, they juke. The pachies break its leg and then walk away. They have options.

[limber delta]

A solo carno doesn’t die to 3 ceras. It can just hold the w key. But a solo cera dies to 3 carnos. That’s the entire point of my comment. Carno excels in packs because you don’t run away from carno, you dodge it. Against a 1 cera you can hold the W key and escape. Against 50 ceras you can hold the W key and escape. Against 1 carno you have to constantly dodge it. Against 3 carnos your odds of successfully dodging all of them go to near zero.

[golden coral]

Hence, U6 carno charge turn was good. Spammability of the charge was not, nor was the massive hitbox. The charge turn allowed it to pursue prey properly with good agility. Stamina was still not that good, and with a fixed hitbox plus omni old agility back, carno is jukeable. Pachy can break it.

[golden coral]

Except a solo carno can be endurance hunted by those ceras, at least in some cases. But I was talking about fighting. In which case that carno is dead. Carno should not excel in packs, that makes little sense for a small game hunter at that. And it only excels due to how charge works. And you really underestimate the numbers advantage and how you can cut off escape and track, and all that.

And you do run away from a carno, you just also apply juking and other methods, instead of sheer speed, unless you're a galli that is.

But you should want to reatreat from the open plains, again, unless you're galli.

[limber delta]

Make carno better, and you make packs of carnos magnitudes better. You’ve seen this before, I KNOW you have

[golden coral]

And dodging one carno is not difficult.

[golden coral]

Yes, which is why things needs to be reworked so carno does not scale quite as well in large groups, same with cera vomit lock.

Both of them scale very well in groups, which is an issue.

That does not excuse either being bad solo.

Omni and troodon also scale well in groups, omni is lethal, but they should still be good, fun, and viable solo for their purpose.

[limber delta]

The only way to make carno better solo without making packs of carnos way better is by either removing the charge or making carno as slow as cera. I’m sure how you can see that these options are too extreme to implement

[golden coral]

Except it's not. You can work on the charge in other ways. Damage, knockdown/stun treshold. Plenty of ways.

[limber delta]

Then carno is still better in packs.

[golden coral]

Make it so carno does very little damage on charge, and make it so it can only knockdown things/stun things up to 900 kg.

There you go, now carno scales much more normally in groups vs larger things.

[golden coral]

Everything, almost, is better in groups. Maybe not stego and teno because they are bad at communal defense.

[limber delta]

Wrong. You haven’t even remotely fixed the scaling by doing that.

[golden coral]

But the reason carno is so good in groups is because the charge is what it is.

[golden coral]

But I have. The charge is no longer useful vs larger prey items.

If you can not stun/knockdown a teno or cera, and you do much less damage, it becomes much more of a "normal" fight.

[limber delta]

Since carno can still outrun everything it sees. So numbers still all equally outrun everything they see.

[golden coral]

Thats not relevant for the combat.

[limber delta]

If carno can close the gap between itself and its prey. It scales better in groups than other species.

[golden coral]

So the scaling is fixed. Carno groups are no longer able to just steamroll larger things in packs if the charge doesn't allow for it as well. And they still remain threats to small stuff as they should.

[golden coral]

Which can and will apply to multiple species, so not sure there's a point there. The issue was how good carno scales, which is the charge.

[alpine sleet]

how can you answer to a message from balance feedback here?

[golden coral]

Now you're just shifting goals. You fix the charge, you fix the vomit lock, both of them of course do better in groups, but not half as good as they do now.

You can absolutely make carno a solid small game predator solo, and not have it entirely steamroll larger things. Even large packs struggle with a stego after all.

[hollow canyon]

yes but Carno's ability to form large packs was heavily dependent on its cannibalism

it doesn't have it anymore

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, that too. But the scaling issue is charge specifically.

[hollow canyon]

tag the person from the balance feedback in this channel

[alpine sleet]

alr thanks

[hollow canyon]

you're welcome

[limber delta]

No its scaling is caused by how it can close the gap. You are maliciously lying through your teeth with this comment, as I have never moved the goalpost since the large comment I sent to you early. This behavior is honestly disgusting.

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. I am not lying, at all. I am telling you how it is. You are shifting the goalposts because you refuse to acknowledge the issue.

[limber delta]

This is the explanation as to why a creature that can close the gap to its prey excels in packs.

[golden coral]

The speed/closing gap is not the reason carno does so much better in groups than solo. It's due to how charge only works on distracted targets, combined with how powerful the charge is.

[limber delta]

Now you’re just gaslighting.

[golden coral]

Says the person that does not provide any actual arguments.

[limber delta]

Ahem

[golden coral]

No, also carno did not "excel" any more than most. And solo carno was pretty solid. You could take on most things, including maias on your own. Even paras.

[alpine sleet]

@polar vine i was the pachy, and yes i was laggy bc im from south america, but i think thats a hitbox issue, anyways ill try on a server from south america and see, also i was just spamming alt bite because my headbutts never work when i play pachy, prob for the lag

[limber delta]

Want carno to be good solo? Make it 40km/h. Buff the stamina and agility. Remove the charge.

[golden coral]

You for some reason refuse to acknowledge the charge as the issue, only arguing speed. In which case we could argue that it's not cera vomit lock that lets it hunts stegos, but just their speed.

Which is not the case.

[hollow canyon]

45km/h, at 40 it would look weird

[limber delta]

If cerato for some reason was slower than stego then it quite literally would be the reason

[golden coral]

If cera did not have vomit lock, they'd not be able to do that half as well, speed change or not. If carno charge were not as powerful as it were, they would not scale as well as they do, speed aside.

[hollow canyon]

also - Carno slower than Allo??

[golden coral]

.... Did I say cera shoud be slower? I said that cera can hunt stegos due to vomit lock. It's vomit lock that scales for the cera, just like it's the charge for carnos.

Not their speed.

But since you want to argue speed, I was using cera vs stego to show a clearly faster playable vs a slower.

[limber delta]

The point was that carno is designed to close the gap, which means it excels in groups, as it forces the enemy into a fight where it’s outnumbered

[golden coral]

Numbers have nothing to do with that either.

Also any faster playable can "close the gap".

[hollow canyon]

nah it excels in groups because it has a mechanic that lets it knock the opponent down

[golden coral]

You can't just ignore the mechanics

[hollow canyon]

if it was just closing the gap, it would get obliterated by anything that is better at brawling

[golden coral]

It does not excel due to speed. It excels due to how its mechanic scales amazingly well in groups.

Both cera and carno are "guilty" of that.

[hollow canyon]

you can avoid a single charging Carno with ease

3 doing it from different angles? Good Luck with that

[limber delta]

The mere existence of the charge also allows it to scale better in groups. But you can avoid a 1v1 against ceras as an omni just as easily as a 1v50. But against carnos they force that 1v50.

[golden coral]

You think speed is what matters, when it's the charge/vomit lock that makes or breaks it. Remove vomit lock, keep cera way faster than stego, stego will be pretty solid. Change charge to be much less powerful and more of a tool to catch small game, keep carno faster than teno and cera, and teno and cera will be pretty solid. Because now the ceras have to actually fight the stego, which will not go as well for them as locking it out of the fight. And now the carnos have to get in and trade hits if they want to kill the ceras and tenos, which will also not go as well for them.

[hollow canyon]

true but if you don't avoid them Ceratos make you puke 24/7 soooo not good either

their CC lasts forever

[keen plover]

Carno slower than Omni?

[hollow canyon]

ye, no problem with that imo

[limber delta]

So to remove this group scaling you’d be okay making it 40km/h and charge did less damage

[hollow canyon]

I don't mind it being slower to make it more viable

just let its charge reach like 50 so it can hit them if they try running but make it difficult

[golden coral]

No, because the speed is needed, or should be, since carno should be the fastest, to catch upto and run down all the smalls. Fix the charge, and the scaling issue is fixed.

Omni should be slower anyway

[limber delta]

So only one carno in a pack should be fast then, that way you can’t force a 1v5 on an Omni, going by your logic?

[hollow canyon]

charge should do less damage either way

it doing 300N is ???

[keen plover]

I think there are 3 main issues with Carno.

• There can be multiple packs of them on a server

• Spiro is mainly plains.

• Omni and Dryo are lacking mechanics to avoid it.

[golden coral]

Hm. Then you'd have to up the carnos ability to defend, the bleed situation and all. But sure, a speed boost for charge, plus turn radius so it can catch the running things, would be interesting.

[hollow canyon]

sure

[golden coral]

Why shouldn't you be able to force a 1v5 as a carno? The only thing that'll happen there is that 2-3 omnis will die, then you will die as carno because that's 2-3 more omnis than you should go up against solo.

Carno being able to hunt small game effectively is not an issue. It's the whole being able to steamroll things with charge, like cera and teno, that might be an issue.

[limber delta]

If you don’t think speed is the issue then you’d be okay with the change I provided. But clearly this comment implies otherwise.

[golden coral]

Though that depends on if we believe carno should hunt ceras and tenos or not.

[golden coral]

No because the speed should be there for other reasons. I am okay with the speed, and it should be that way for other reasons. It is just not the problem with carno scaling.

You would do well to actually keep the argument accurate. The speed is not the reason carno scales so very well. The speed is therefor not the issue, and does not need changing.

You wanted a "fix" to carno groups being too good, and I provided that. You then decided that no, the issue is something else.

[hollow canyon]

yea it's the charge why Carno is so dangerous, being able to CC upon closing the gap is the issue, a group of Carnos get folded by a Stego because they can't CC it

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Well, aside from the issues that makes carno bad. But new map would fix the "avoiding" issues, though they should still get their mechanics of course, as should all others. And well, multiple packs is fine, just not in one single area. But if there's three different plains areas on Gateway, they could all have a carno pair on them, I think that'd be fine.

Omni scramble up tree, then we can lower omni speed!

Also dryo burrow dumb, just make dodge good!

[hollow canyon]

I don't think they need the mechanics to avoid it, Dryo was immortal to Carno unless it tried to brawl it on every update

U3 Carno which was far more agile than now and couldn't catch it

[golden coral]

Back when you could run into omni packs, lead them on a merry chase, and then disappear while they all stared at the mass amount of tracks on the ground and tried to make sense of it.

[keen plover]

Fair but regardless. Those are ways to hard counter Carno

[limber delta]

Dino A is smaller than Dino B and Dino C

Dino A has to run away from Dino B, but has to dodge the attacks from Dino C, as it is too slow to run away.

Since Dino A is faster than Dino B, it doesn’t matter if there’s 1 or 100 Dino B’s, Dino A can just run away

But Dino A can’t run away from Dino B. So if Dino B wants to catch Dino A, Dino A has to evade it, since it can’t run away or defeat it. Against 1 Dino B this is bad, but against 5 Dino B’s. This is extremely bad. Since Dino A has to conflict against 5x the amount of Dino B’s.

[golden coral]

True. Not that you need them, even with a good carno, dryo and omni could still juke it. At least if the hitbox was normal.

[keen plover]

Not to mention Carno does worse in the highlands, swamp, coast & whatever other biome on Gateway that isn’t plains

Making it a predator that’s a huge threat in the open would be fair to it. Especially when stuff like Omni will be able to just say ‘no’ by going up a tree

[golden coral]

You keep talking about running away when that's not relevant to any point. I've seen your examples, they're just not relevant. Yes, if a single Dino A, struggles vs one of dino B, it should die to multiple dino Bs. This is not an issue either?

[hollow canyon]

T.rex was faster than Sucho in legacy, would you say that the same was the issue there?

[golden coral]

If two rexes finds a stego, that stego will most likely die unless the rexes somehow mess up.

In any case, your point there does not relate to speed not being the issue for scaling.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it will require even 2 Rexs tbh

[limber delta]

Only one trex was required to kill a sucho, but as a sucho main. A trex duo was a million times worse than a trex solo since if I miraculously dodged it’s broken hitbox and got behind it, the other would kill me. So yes. It quite literally was an issue.

[golden coral]

Also you can adjust group limits for good numbers. Maybe carnos would only come in pairs or so. But them shredding the small game is fine, the small game has alternatives. Omni scramble, dryo burrow, even normal juking if you're good at it and the carnos don't really know how to work together.

Also well, not only plains to play on, would certainly help.

[hollow canyon]

wait what... why would you try to get behind it?

[limber delta]

Depends, are we assuming a stego wins a 1v1 with a rex or not?

[golden coral]

Gateway has envrionments, different biomes, and so on. Even if carno is really good in the plains, and you should avoid them entirely unless you have the carno(s) severely outnumbered, you'd be fine anyway.

[hollow canyon]

errrmmm based on what the devs have said? We can clearly assume that it doesn't

[golden coral]

Assuming it can survive, maybe not kill the rex but deter it enough to make it go away?

[limber delta]

I killed trexes when I got behind them as sucho. Non alt turn servers

[hollow canyon]

yea but no alt was irrelevant to the balance of the game, it was designed/balanced with alt turn in mind

[golden coral]

No alt doesn't really count :p I know that's the only thing left there, but still. Same why acro being good or bad doesn't really apply because well, sandbox vs survival balance.

[limber delta]

So stego beats it yes or no? Since players rarely back down

[golden coral]

For the sake of the argument, let's assume stego can kill a rex. If there's a second rex, and the stego has no way to escape, it dies. Should stego be able to outrun rexes. Maybe, possibly. But if that other rex has you cornered, you're done for.

[limber delta]

The balance was unironically worse in alt turn. I never enjoyed it. Apexes had no weaknesses

[golden coral]

Even if you're faster, you can be cut off and intercepted, and so on.

Yeah okay, I'm... starting to understand you now :p

If that's your take on things

[hollow canyon]

hmmm idk, to me it didn't matter, I played on both

[golden coral]

Also you know apexes will be better in Evrima, so that should be fun :p

[limber delta]

A single stego should either be faster or stronger than a single trex

[hollow canyon]

it probably won't be

[limber delta]

Then no one will play stego

[golden coral]

Doubtful that it'd be either. And if anything, faster I suppose.

[hollow canyon]

T.rex is fast, it runs at the old speed and trots 50% faster than legacy Giga

[golden coral]

Since they've said stego and deino are not apex level

[hollow canyon]

literally trots as fast as Giga ran

[golden coral]

So I do not see them being that powerful, so I guess stego can run. Or they just go "put on unofficial and leave it be"

Since that seems to be the potential way they handle apexes and "balance"

Just make rex and trike very powerful, put on unofficial, call it a day :p

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Stego can be made fast enough to runa way without breaking its animations

[limber delta]

We haven’t seen the animation compared to other speeds. We can’t assume anything right now based on that.

[hollow canyon]

we have

they show T.rex very often on streams

it trots like a hellhound going after its target

[golden coral]

I guess we can argue how fast stego can really be, and how it would look, based on what we have. I think it could be made a little faster (though I wish it didn't gallop, it's silly as can be). But rex is apparently decently fast, so, not sure how that'd go honestly.

[limber delta]

I’ve only seen it on devtest maps. And besides, who’s to say they won’t reduce its speed before it’s implemented

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonDidn't they say they did change anims though?

So what we've seen might not be current

That's not to say rex is slow, it might very well still be quite fast

[hollow canyon]

as in - they changed them from legacy or the Evrima animations?

cause I understood it as the former

[golden coral]

From Evrima I would think

[hollow canyon]

I thought they meant from legacy

[limber delta]

But if stego is unable to outrun or defeat trex. No one will play stego. Or at the very least it’ll be found once in a blue moon

[golden coral]

But I could be entirely wrong there, I do not keep up with streams at all. I just heard they might have changed it from what was once shown.

[golden coral]

That, I believe, is a worry most stego players and some others share. But well, "unofficial balance not our problem" I believe the sentiment is.

[hollow canyon]

T.rex is unofficial only because it's strong, same as Trike

[golden coral]

So they could just put stego there with the other two, and call it a day. Give us kentro instead (wouldn't mind)

[hollow canyon]

it's a possibility

[limber delta]

I think trex should just be so bad or hard to survive as that it’s as rare as an apex in real life.

[hollow canyon]

although Stego is supposed to be getting some new attacks, I'm sure they won't leave it like this

[golden coral]

But I think we'll just have to wait and see. But the possibility of putting stego on unofficials have been mentioned.

[golden coral]

So should stego and deino honestly. They're far too easy to grow and maintain for the power they have. Deino especially, but stego as well.

The problem there is how to make it hard and not boring/grind and so on

At least I don't think it'd be good game design if the reason people don't play rex is because it's just too boring/much work, rather than because it's fun but a proper challenge and difficult to play

But a lot of people just think adding more growth time would solve it, which I disagree with

[limber delta]

Apexes should be easy to kill or starve out at adults. Everyone afk grows and we’ve already tested what long grow times do to reduce apex populations (f*ck all lol)

[golden coral]

Yep. Mostly due to hunting requirements being difficult I'd say. Similar for herbis, less harsh because we do want more herbis than carnis, but still. Also would be nice with more interactive herbi food gathering. Just walking from plant to plant isn't the most exciting.

[limber delta]

Players like pvp. You can’t have an ecosystem where the stakes of death are fun and excitement. The only way they could automatically have more herbi players than carni players would be to do make herbis better at killing

[golden coral]

Or make it properly survival, which I think is the direction they're going. Yes, people like pvp, but I think the devs want to change focus from pvp to survival. Which would imply fighting would be a bad idea overall, fun or not. Remember we're getting elders, and in order to get those perks, you need to peacefully go to sleep. So you might have reasons to not just go fight stuff at all times in the future. And I'd say you could make herbis a bit more popular by making them overall easier to sustain. But then the carni players tend to complain about no AI and so on, because the idea of going herbi to not worry as much about starvation is a strange one to Isle players, at least from my experience. And if we did make herbis better at killing, you know the other sentiment would be "why is this herbi killing me, why doesn't it just eat grass and die like herbis should do?!"

[limber delta]

Herbis are already easier to survive as. Or at least they were until 6.5 made two of them useless. I think the game would lose half its players before those players willingly became herbi mains

[golden coral]

They are, but perhaps not enough of a difference to make it matter for most people? And yes, you're probably right there, people do seem to only like herbis if they can play them as carnis. Perhaps when/if the game becomes more survival oriented, that mindset will change. But for now, especially with the current map, deathmatch hotspots is pretty much the game.

[limber delta]

Hotspots exist because the map is too big to meet players to fight without them (as well as food being hard to find for carnis). Pvp is the reason most players play the game. So the devs will have to embrace it if they want to keep their playerbase

[golden coral]

Well, hotspots exists mostly because the rest of the map is kind of meh both in layout and where to go. In some cases you're almost punished for exploring since no food or water. We could have had more hotspots and more spread out, instead of NW, Center, and that's about it. And yes, pvp is probably one of the main reasons people play, but that does not change that the game is meant to be survival, not "pvp deathmatch", and the devs might very well end up doing what they want, since at the end, it's Dondis game, his vision, and all that. See humans, most current playerbase aren't that keen on them from what I know, but we're getting them, since that's part of the game vision and all.

So as it stands, I doubt the devs will "embrace" the current pvp mindset, since they seem pretty set on making the game according to their (Dondis) vision, no matter if "we" as players like it or not. That's what unofficials and mods and all are for, to "fix" things as it were.

[limber delta]

Yandev taught us that if they make a game that appeals to themselves rather than other people. Then people will stop playing.

[golden coral]

I am not familiar with that. But while that may be true, my point still stands. The devs might be fine with that, no matter if it's reasonable or not, if they truly want to achieve their vision for the game. But the fact is, the current game does not reflect the vision, from what I know at least. So at some point, things will change. Will we lose players for it, most likely. Will it cost a significant part of the playerbase, most likely not. The Isle is still the best dino game out there, for good and ill. But from what I know, Dondi did set out to make a game he wants, we're just along for the ride, more or less.

[limber delta]

Yandev was a developer for an indie game that rejected the players wishes and ended up, to put it bluntly, making a pile of hot doodoo of a game that no one liked or played. Remember when Dondi mocked disabled people because players wanted night vision that wouldn’t give them headaches? I sure do!

“I still hope eyeless/neurotonics have a Daredevil style “vision”. Sounds highlighting stuff around ya. c:”

Dondi: “Then we’ll have even more people pretending to have problems to make the game easier.”

Point is, devs shouldn’t let their egos get in the way of them making a game that playerbases want.

[golden coral]

Okay, so noted. And no, I missed that incident apparently. But the thing is, Dondi/the devs might be fine "ignoring" the playerbase. If the goal was to make a game they want, then that's the goal. I'm inclined to agree at least somewhat with you that the playerbase should be taken into account, though I can see the point of wanting to just make the game just the way you want, for your own entertainment, as well. So there's an argument to be made for both sides, you could make a game for the purpose of having "everyone" play it, or purely because you want a game that is specifically to your wishes, and be content being the only one playing it. And the Isle was never "made for the playerbase" as it were, it was always meant to be Dondis idea of how a game should be.

Yes, things have changed a lot from the original vision, for good and ill. We have playable herbis, far more playable carnis, even playable dinos in the first place was apparently not meant to be. And as far as "we" are concerned, those changes are good, otherwise "we" might not be here, but that does not mean "we" have to be taken into account. Dondi could just go "I'm making my own game, and you can make yours on top with mods down the line" and call it a day as it were. There are no doubt going to be changes that won't align with the current playerbases opinions on how things should be, and people will have to either play anyway, or find another game.

There's no real point in us "arguing" it anyway. At the end of the day, it's Dondis game. It's going to be made according to his wishes, be it only what he wants, or taking the playerbase into account because he says so. Also we're kind of off topic I'm pretty sure, so maybe we should call it a day, at least for this discussion.

[limber delta]

There’s a difference between arguing what it will be and arguing what it should be.

[keen plover]

Stun on fractures is a bit much. Maybe if it was creature specific. Or location specific. So it wouldn’t work on a teno, but hitting a carnos body hitbox or head would stun it. A Carno with a leg fracture can’t be stunned anymore

Something like that

So it could work on Carno and cera

[thin mantle]

Mhm

[keen plover]

But I’d make teno immune

Also if Pachy can stun on fractures, then there’s no need for it to have the benefit of winning the charge trade. It would then just go back to Carno hunting in duos as it can face the charge at all times

[meager oriole]

This does not mean Stego won’t be able to take on Rex

Stego isn’t even pseudo apex like Deino, it’s just de facto apex

It’s so large and slow it might as well be one

Doesn’t matter what the devs say Stegos position is, it’s too slow to NOT be able to defend itself

They have called Stego the gimped apex in the past iirc, it will get buffs once Rex and Trike are in the game and this has been expected for years now

[golden coral]

No, but it means it's perhaps more likely stego runs, rather than fights if they don't want them to be on the same level. They do not consider it "apex" in the same way they see trike and rex, according to what they've said. Deino and stego are, I don't know, "pseudo apex" if that is a thing, or just large tier perhaps.

But it could mean they just don't see current stego/deino as apex in powerlevel, or it could mean they don't want deino/stego to be apex level in power. Either or could work, we don't know for sure right now.

Only that their power is not on the level they intend rex and trike to be on.

[meager oriole]

Rex vs Stego 1v1 will in a balanced matchup be Stego favored by default due to the fact Rex controls the engagement

However there is certain Rex bias that makes me nervous about even Rex vs Trike

[golden coral]

We don't know how fast they might make stego to be fair. Or if they do slow rex down or not. So, maybe we will get a running stego in the end. Depends entirely on what they want stego to do, same goes for deino. They said deino swims away from spino, but if that will end up holding true remains to be seen after all.

[meager oriole]

Stego will probably be slower or around same speed as Trike, to give a comparison on how much Rex will control that engagement

[golden coral]

I'm just going by what the latest statements seem to imply, which is that rex and trike will be apexes proper.

[meager oriole]

Why would Rex be slow? It’s trot is iirc 21 kmh rn

[golden coral]

Just saying, there are options. There's no guarantee that stego will be able to fight off a rex. If the devs don't want stego doing that, it's not going to do that, even if it makes more sense than it running away in general.

[meager oriole]

Being “apex proper” doesn’t mean anything in this circumstance, Eden

Stego is too slow and large

It will be BALANCED like an Apex, even if it’s not called one

[dusky surge]

i hope it is

[meager oriole]

This has been expected for years now

Ever since Stego was added to evrima

[golden coral]

Only if the devs want it that way. Which is my point. Expectations does not mean it will end up like that in the end.

[meager oriole]

The devs probably are aware Rex will just invalidate Stego if Stego isn’t deadly to a Rex lol

Stego doesn’t even have its full kit yet

[golden coral]

Oh I'm sure they are. The question is if they'll go for fighter stego or runner stego, and so on.

[meager oriole]

Why would they go for runner Stego?

[golden coral]

Because if they don't want it to fight, it'll have to run to be viable.

[dusky surge]

and stego running from rex is comedic at best

[plucky holly]

stego should have like a 50% chance in fighting a rex to be viable

[golden coral]

I just don't want to say this or that will happen for stego, no matter how much I would prefer a powered up and apex level stego. You know how much I like the critter Carth, I'm sure you can understand I'm not really willing to set expectations that may end up not coming true at all.

[meager oriole]

I wouldn’t worry too much about Rex vs Stego, but I’m sure at first something will happen that makes Rex kill Stego most of the time and it’ll be something stupid but it’ll also probably be fixed

[dusky surge]

that would make it unviable

[meager oriole]

Stego vs Rex should be ehhh, 70/30, if Rex ambushes Stego then opposite

[dusky surge]

the prey having a 50/50 with its predator means its probably unviable

[meager oriole]

It’s impossible to ever get a 50/50

[golden coral]

I mean, troodons and omnis kill stegos, despite their hunting method being what it is, which should mean stego would be untouchable to them. But as you said, stego isn't really well designed for a stego, or it's lacking in it's kit for now.

[dusky surge]

i mean, this is under the assumption we're getting ambush rex, which based on dev statements, is probably not happening

[plucky holly]

as minimun stego should be able to win half of the fights

[dusky surge]

evrima rex is described as an endurance, bloodhound style animal

not an ambush hunter

[meager oriole]

Stego is a large Herbivore which at its maximum is 1 ton below the average Trike, I wouldn’t expect a Rex to walk up to one and not regret it

7 Ton Stego in Evrima ❤️

Probably at most 6.5 though smh

[golden coral]

I'd rather have proper swings than sheer weight honestly. And just give stego the ability to swipe things off itself perhaps. Just make it properly AoE/anti speed/agile critters, and leave the sheer fighting power for the trike.

[meager oriole]

The issue with the Rex vs Stego matchup also is how Rex will damage it tbh

Stego cannot take damage from its plates

So if a Rex say tries to tank the tail, it probably would do nothing to a Stego hypothetically while a Stego just like 5 shot fast jabs the Rex to death(assuming Stegos damage isn’t buffed)

[golden coral]

Knock the stego over/down, I've been told, is what the rex can do.

[dusky surge]

look what it does to para

[golden coral]

It does after all show that headbutt

[golden coral]

Reinder that fast jabs only works on the side angle, which means the rex can just aim for the head if it approaches from that side.

[meager oriole]

That’s in the scenario Rex tries to tank a Stego

[golden coral]

If you're thinking it'd tank the tail, that only works if you're well, approaching from the tail.

[dusky surge]

reminder, stego is smaller than this

[golden coral]

Yeah, but if it can get to stego head, stego probably just dies

[meager oriole]

Stego is not smaller than a Para

[golden coral]

Even if you get a few jabs in, the moment rex goes chomp, you die

Considering it'll probably have a very powerful bite, and the whole grapple/trash thing, plus stegos weak head

[dusky surge]

it is atm, it's like, 6 tons, para is more around the 7 mark

[meager oriole]

Stego also is the 7 mark

The Para in Isle is gimped

[dusky surge]

stego is also gimped

[meager oriole]

*Until Apexes come into the game

That’s the difference, we know Stego will get buffs when that happens, Para? It’s in its design

[plucky holly]

stego should do a ton more of damage than a Para anyway

[dusky surge]

well, yea, obviously

[meager oriole]

Stego probably should do a lot of damage anyway

[dusky surge]

but if rex can pin a para, it can probably pin a stego

[meager oriole]

Though I think Trike should also have an attack that does 1k or more damage

[golden coral]

I guess it remains to be seen how it all works out in the end. At least we can say the balancing ought to be interesting, just look at how it's going so far this update!

[dusky surge]

i'd imagine that'd be reasonable

i'm concerned about how much damage rex bite will do. If it's the classic 1k damage, we might be in for some real trouble

[golden coral]

Even if it doesn't pin, the headbutt might knock it over, or just stun it. Time enough to get past the tail possibly?

[dusky surge]

idk man, i fear for stego

[meager oriole]

Stego will probably be fine

[dusky surge]

its the same situation as the whole "spino just obliterates deino in any situation regardless of environment"

not a fan

[meager oriole]

It’s Trike I’m unironically more concerned with

[dusky surge]

trike will likely have more brawn than stego, as well as confirmed having diablo's "sparring stance" ability

[golden coral]

It'll be viable, in some way, no doubt. As will trike. But why are you concerned about trike? Well, aside from it dying to troodons and omnis of course.

Unless that sparring stance works vs those things

[meager oriole]

It seems hard to mess up a Trike, but then you look at legacy lol

[dusky surge]

i just dont acknowledge legacy

its a different breed of balancing

[meager oriole]

Oh yeah another thing I have a problem with is how full power Stego might remain on officials where it’s actually just invulnerable to smalls

Since full power Stego will just be de facto apex

[golden coral]

I guess they'd put stego on unofficials as well then, if it gets powered up

[cosmic pelican]

Then deino has to go as well

[dusky surge]

for sure lol

[meager oriole]

I still can somewhat see the matchup being made where Stego, a “lumbering giant”, having to run from Rex though lol even though Rex trots pretty much the same speed as Stego sprints

[cosmic pelican]

I dont think anyone wants land deino back

[meager oriole]

Rex has already been slowed down, it used to trot faster than Stego sprint

[meager oriole]

Wdym?

Deino probably won’t change

[dusky surge]

stego is the only thing keeping deino in its place

[meager oriole]

No reason for Deino to change

[cosmic pelican]

If stego is gone deino will rule on land as well as in water

Without any competition

[meager oriole]

Hard to tell since we’d have Gateway

[cosmic pelican]

Deino would still lack competition
Even if it is soft locked by the map

Nothing in the current roster even comes close to the power of an adult deino
No matter if its land or water

[golden coral]

Stego doesn't really "compete" with it, it's only that they are slightly more limited on land if a stego is there

[cosmic pelican]

Which is what deino needs

[meager oriole]

That is true though

Most Stegos I meet rn play it just to counter/spite Deinos

The thing is too, Deino is so unbelievably boring that when Rex comes I just see them all going to unofficials with them enabled

So Deino population actually just plummets

[cosmic pelican]

I would love that

[meager oriole]

Without Deinos, people definitely would not like playing Stego besides my fellow Stego lovers

[keen plover]

I mean, Gateway + Deino getting even more changes probably means it was already bound to drop off

[meager oriole]

So, Stego population also sees a decrease

[meager oriole]

Yeah

Not as much as Rex being added though imo

[keen plover]

True.

[meager oriole]

Maybe dropping like 30% without Rex but even as much as 80% with Rex

[keen plover]

I mean the unofficials will show how cancerous rex is tbf. "Adult rex is easy to avoid" As we finally get a proper mid tier in sub rex and likely speedy juvi rex

Rex families

[meager oriole]

“We’ll limit the amount of Rexes”

Sees only Rex in Eggs

[keen plover]

I don't think they can limit numbers in this game. Especially not on officials where there are no rules. People will just feed their rex friends

[meager oriole]

I mean the unofficial servers themselves limiting them

[keen plover]

Ah fair

So unless Rex is something mid tier packs can drop, then I probably don't ever want to see it on officials myself lol

[cosmic pelican]

Knowing the playerbase I doubt anyone would complain about rex being op.
"BIg CArNi, ShOUld bE Op!1!111!!"

And I know that reason they are putting it in unofficial is that it will inevitibly be overpowered

[keen plover]

Yeah.

[meager oriole]

Ehhh not so sure about this

I’ve already heard many complaints about people thinking Rex will be too strong and there will be too many of them

And even from Deino players 💀

[cosmic pelican]

Deino is miles more op that stego, yet the majority want buffs to deino and nerfs to stego

[meager oriole]

Whoever thinks Stego is op, just laugh at them

[cosmic pelican]

The carnivore bias lives on

[meager oriole]

Deino is op by sheer design, but it’s also sort of meh

[cosmic pelican]

Its the most boring dino to play
But its mechanically flawed

[meager oriole]

Stego meanwhile just… most of the time in my gameplay does what it’s designed to be lol

Sticks to plains just lumbering about, I don’t really camp water for Deinos that much(well literally never)

[cosmic pelican]

And its 100 times more killable than any deino is

[meager oriole]

And it’s escapable/predictable

[cosmic pelican]

Even noob players can survive as deino, meanwhile even an average stego has trouble surviving competent packs (we dont talk about cerato vomitlocking )

[meager oriole]

Deino is not

[cosmic pelican]

"THE DEINOSUCHUS is inevitable"

[meager oriole]

Deino is literally a “wrong place wrong time” playable

It’s pretty much just get lucky when drinking water

[cosmic pelican]

Maybe it will get better once other semi aquatics are in

[meager oriole]

Stego again, if you die to a Stego you like 99% of the time did that almost to yourself

[cosmic pelican]

But stego should be fodder

[meager oriole]

But guys Stego so op

Omg! So op!

[cosmic pelican]

Fr
Let deino grab adult stegos

[meager oriole]

Maybe if you see a Stego don’t attack it

[cosmic pelican]

The only thing bad about stego is the fact that players use it to camp bodies

[meager oriole]

Imagine requiring coordination to kill a Stego

[cosmic pelican]

Impossible

[meager oriole]

My theory still holds true every time when this happens

[golden coral]

So all three of us or something like that then? :p

[cosmic pelican]

Yea its avoidable, just annoying

[meager oriole]

Just disengage from a fight with a body, possibly even out of sight, the player will get bored and leave or think you’re going away and leave

[cosmic pelican]

Basically yes

[meager oriole]

Nah there’s definitely quite a lot more people you’d expect who also have Stego as their favorite dinosaur

[cosmic pelican]

Plus basically every carni except carno can try to kill a stego if its in a pack

[meager oriole]

And if a playable is your favorite dinosaur it is definitely more enjoyable to you in game lol

I don’t imagine the gameplay I have is particularly enjoyable to most

Stegos migration paths are more pain than Tenontos

And playing Tenonto in general is pain

I do wonder how much Deinos will exist in ~7.5

[golden coral]

Fair, it's just hard to run into people like that during normal gameplay it feels like. Or maybe I just have bad luck only finding the ones wanting to go fish for deinos and so on.