balance-feedback-discussion

[frail bobcat]

Jesus, this omni suggestion might be the worst balance take I have seen in a long time

[tiny thicket]

ellaborate

[frail bobcat]

You asked for 6 buffs for omni (it needs some tweaking) and some other funky stuff

The carno charge turn rate for example

Omni does not need buffs

Other playables need nerfs

[tiny thicket]

I understand but nerfing other playables would bring less variety and each playable would feel the same as the other with only gimmicks separating them

[frail bobcat]

No it wouldnt

[tiny thicket]

It would be legacy all over again

[frail bobcat]

Pachy is just straight up op rn (it dominates everything except for stegos and deinos), its stun needs some tweaking, the endlag is way to quick

[frail bobcat]

How?

If op stuff is nerfed, to make it balanced, it would be a overall fun and balanced experience, unlike legacy.

[tiny thicket]

making a stuff op in its own way makes it more fun, eg. omni is op in terms of agility, carno in terms of speed and acceleration, stego in terms of raw damage and deino in terms of raw health.

nerfing omni in its own domain of agility made it useless and it needed to tank more hits which means it needs more health?

[frail bobcat]

You do not understand what op means

Op means overpowered/unfair

Omni is agile but has no health

Carno should be fast but outturned to counter it

Op means that playable are not fair to fight, they excel at stuff they should not be good at, they outclass stuff they should not outclass.

If you wanna be a mobile pack hunter, you go for pachy, because its just better than omni in almost every way

[tiny thicket]

its not fair bcoz the playable is nerfed from its own domain

[silver lotus]

Things have to be balanced

Omni is still agile, it’s just less ludicrous

[frail bobcat]

Your suggestion would make omni more op than u5 omni

How is nerfing something op not fair?

[silver lotus]

Also, it’s not fun if certain dinos are ludicrously overpowered in one area.

[tiny thicket]

But I did mentioned to keep current bucking mechanic so omni players have to use their head for once and not just hold right click

[frail bobcat]

They already need to do that

[silver lotus]

It turns every encounter into rock paper scissors, rather than something with tactics

[frail bobcat]

Yes, stuff needs to be good at certain areas, not op

[tiny thicket]

Thats the point of a good game

[frail bobcat]

No, its the point of a bad survival game

[silver lotus]

Not really- it should only be the case in very limited situations.

For example, if you’re a Dino stupid enough to drink without checking for Deinosuchus- you’re probably toast, and that makes sense.

Otherwise, there has to be a way to counter other dinos, within reason.

[frail bobcat]

But a situation where you spot a pachy as a teno and its a "guess ill die", its not ok

[silver lotus]

I mean yeah

Pachy needs to be balanced better

[tiny thicket]

it is much agile

[silver lotus]

I haven’t had enough experience playing Pachy to know how it works mechanically though.

[frail bobcat]

That does not matter here

[tiny thicket]

oh it does it turns in faster than an omni who was supposed to be more agile but lighter

[silver lotus]

How does pachy headbutt work?

[slim dragon]

Right click>Bonk>Target gets broken bones

Hold longer>Stronger bonk

[tiny thicket]

for bigger targets hold right click to charge up the bonk and aim and release

[silver lotus]

Does it need range to get up to speed?

[tiny thicket]

no it just flies even if it is just standing and it flies faster than omni's speed

[silver lotus]

Then that’s the problem, lol

Just needs some acceleration on the charge

[slim dragon]

It does stop pachy tho
It's a short-ranged ram

[slim dragon]

Pachy isn't supposed to build up speed before ramming, it's supposed to be able to use it effectively while standing

It's supposed to be a defensive ability

The problem comes from the insane CC it applies

A pachy can stop a carno dead in its tracks with a single ram

[silver lotus]

Ok, I was assuming it was more of a charge

Maybe it needs to be more of a chance based thing, then

[slim dragon]

That would be much worse

Chance-based things have no place in a game like this

[silver lotus]

I mean, it’s a survival game, it’s kind of inherently chancebased

But I see your point, it would be frustrating in the extreme

[stark knoll]

No attacks in this game have inherent RNG

[tiny thicket]

then there will be no horror element if one knows whats going to happen

[silver lotus]

Why shouldn’t it be a charge, then?

[slim dragon]

There is no reason to add a luck factor in an encounter on which your life depends

[stark knoll]

You can still use it while moving/sprinting

[silver lotus]

Maybe it should just be weaker if you use it standing still

[slim dragon]

Because then pachy would be even better at running down animals who asked nothing and worse at defenting itslef, which is the opposite of what devs want

[silver lotus]

I mean I’d suggest changing strength based on relative velocity, that makes the most sense but would be hard to implement

That way if something’s fleeing it’s like they’re both standing still, vs headbutt being very effective against headon charges.

The real problem is that the best tactic would be to attack Pachy from behind, but it’s so agile that’s basically impossible.

[stark knoll]

It used to be like that, not only was it busted but it went against the intended defensive playstyle

[silver lotus]

Based on relative velocity?

[stark knoll]

Yup

Ram damage used to be based on speed and how long you charged it

[silver lotus]

What if ram dazed pachy?

Only really hard bonks tho

Nope, bad idea

[stark knoll]

Pachy gets self-stunned if it rams massive targets like stego

[slim dragon]

Not a fan of being punished for using your ability as you should

[silver lotus]

I guess the problem is how debilitating fractures are

[slim dragon]

I think it's more about the CC itself

If a pachy rammed a carno and simply broke its leg, the carno could still fight back and get away
But the carno is forced to stand motionless for a few seconds, meaning it can't get away or retaliate
Every time pachy rams it

And yet, carno is the least vulnerable creature to pachy, because it is OP as well

[tiny thicket]

least vulnerable to a solo pachy but put a squad and u get a dead carno

[slim dragon]

Least vulnerable to any amount of pachies
A squad of pachies can kill everything, except stegos and deinos

And pteras but that's normal

[silver lotus]

Wait, can pachy just lock you in place by repeatedly ramming?

[gritty urchin]

you can, but dino dont wake up always with the same speed, so it's not always the case

(it's weird, maybe random ? i do test with pachy vs utha)

[slim dragon]

During update 5 there was a stun immunity window after being stunned, but I'm not sure if it's still here

[gritty urchin]

sometimes the pachy destroy me and i cant react, i'm on the ground, sometimes i wake up very fast

maybe the part where the pachy hit is important

(head, body...)

[silver lotus]

I can see pachy ram breaking you out of a charge, but stunning you in place is definitely op

[dusky surge]

it still is, but exceptionally easy to get around and ignore

[silver lotus]

Fractures are bad enough

[dusky surge]

because pachy is ridiculous

[slim dragon]

We need tiered stuns

[dusky surge]

or just make it that pachy can't stun carno and teno unless it fractures them

[silver lotus]

Maybe it stuns if it hits head, but why would fracture stun

[dusky surge]

imagine you have your ribcage or leg broken

i'd be immobilised for a short bit, yea

[silver lotus]

I think the debuff from fracture is big enough

[dusky surge]

i also think falling off a cliff and breaking a leg SHOULD stagger you

this is a nerf to pachy

rather than stunning EVERY time it lands a ram

it would only stun when it gets the fracture

meaning it can only stun a carno or teno 3 times

(it can still knock down animals less than its own weight, and stun animals less than 2x its own weight with every ram)

[silver lotus]

Aside from realism though… the aim of the balance is to stop Pachy players from playing aggressively

[dusky surge]

the aim is to stop pachies from soloing tenos and carnos, not to stop them from being aggro

[silver lotus]

It’s both

[gritty urchin]

pachy are really often overagressive yeah

[silver lotus]

I’ve made and seen other suggestions that would stop pachy from soloing, but wouldn’t address the problem of aggro pachy

[gritty urchin]

fracture is terrible, but it's fair, maybe reduce the % of chance to broke with the weight of the ennemy

[dusky surge]

there is no chance

fracture chance doesn't exist

[gritty urchin]

i know, but it will be a solution

[dusky surge]

then why did you imply there was a chance-based system

[silver lotus]

Splitting hairs

[dusky surge]

they can't reduce the chance to fracture if there is no chance to it

also, pachy being aggressive isn't really a problem, the problem is it getting away with it so well against animals almost 4x its size

[silver lotus]

I mean, from my perspective, the ideal conceptual use of pachy bonk would be- toothy Dino attacks pachy. Pachy breaks toothy Dino’s leg, runs away, toothy Dino cannot chase with hurting leg.

Right?

[tiny thicket]

toothy dino dies of hunger

[silver lotus]

The Isle

[dusky surge]

that's the idea, yes, so simply make it that the pachy can't stunlock said toothy dino

you don't need to do anything more than that

[silver lotus]

Maybe more cooldown on successful bonk as well?

If I broke someone’s leg using my face, I personally would not want to repeat that if I could

[dusky surge]

dont add unnecessary cooldowns imho

that just seems... unfair

[silver lotus]

I mean, to me it does seem like a necessary cooldown

Obviously if you don’t fracture, there’s less cooldown

[stark knoll]

I don't think people should be effectively punished for a successful attack

[dusky surge]

again, pachy only needs one big nerf, and that's to the stun. That's it

I DON'T agree with overnerfing

[silver lotus]

To me, it’s not really a punishment- just a way of incentivizing a different play style. All it does is lengthen the amount of time between successful attacks

[silver lotus]

There’s alternate routes, though. You can avoid stunlock either by limiting number of stuns, or by implementing stun cooldown.

[stark knoll]

There was a stun cooldown but I think it was either removed or was bugged

After receiving CC, you couldn't be CCed for some seconds after

You'd still take damage from those attacks, though

[dusky surge]

i'm suggesting a limit to the number of stuns. 3. one for each fracture type

break leg = stun
break body = stun
break head = stun

normal ram with no break = no stun

[silver lotus]

But arguably that still encourages an aggressive playstyle

Which is more realistic, a pachy crippling an predator and then repeatedly attacking it to the point of debilitation/death, or a pachy breaking a leg and running?

[dusky surge]

if you can't stun anymore, you will die

the pachy can't do enough damage without the stuns to compensate for the damage it's recieving in return

stuns are what enable it to be so aggro

because it isn't punished for attacking foes like this head on

[silver lotus]

Are there damage/health spreadsheets for even a?

[dusky surge]

health = weight is a hint

carno has 1800HP because it weighs 1800kg

[silver lotus]

Y’know what, I’ll just grow a pachy

For research porpoises

[tiny thicket]

health=weight has its drawbacks, its logic would be that one has to bite every kg/pounds of meat of its prey to completely kill it, eg deino bites a stego in the head, realistically the stego's head will be ripped of its body but it still lives and regenerates another head, I had an idea where each limb and breakable part of the body had its own independent health pool and regenerate independently however the head (brain) and the heart are considered vital should never be depleted to zero or else the playable dies. With current system Pachy can only break one leg, imagine if it could break all the legs and completely immobilize the target or playables getting eaten alive by carnivores.

[slim dragon]

I think that could lead to extremely unfair situations

Starting with the ones you mentioned, a deino oneshotting a stego and a pachy rendering something completely immobile and left to be eaten alive

[tiny thicket]

I mean having one big blood pool makes sense but same does not go for the healthpool

[slim dragon]

It's for balance

I'm honestly not a fan of the health=weight either, but deino oneshotting a stego with a headshot is ridiculous

[tiny thicket]

maybe two shotting the head kills it. a good stego will never point its head the second time.

[slim dragon]

That's still horrible
The stego/deino balance is fine as is

[tiny thicket]

Even the armor plates and thagomizer would have their own healthpool and protect the vital parts, so a deino will have hard time killing a stego with its tail pointing towards it.

[golden coral]

There's already multipliers for different hitboxes, so that kind of applies already.

The idea of having specific body parts with their own health is odd to me, though I can see the point of it I suppose.

[silver lotus]

There has to be a balance between realism and playability.

Losing a fullgrown stego already feels bad enough, imagine if it was with two hits to the head.

[silver lotus]

And completely unrelated, I absolutely love it being called the thagomizer

[humble heart]

Terrible idea you are making it so stego cannot swing its tail. If it did the deino could simply wait and then bite its head.

Thats honestly the worst balancing idea ive eve heard for stego/deino matchups

[dusky surge]

but carnivore strong and herbivore weak

therefor carnivore should always win

[bright oasis]

EAT GRASS AND DIE BABY

[tiny thicket]

how about putting the head in gators mouth and die

[hollow topaz]

The downfall of that being you have no choice but to drink. Your head is always at risk regardless. One stun and a partner deino and you’re dead. But you can’t just.. not drink?

[dusky surge]

herbivore bad must die

[hollow topaz]

And with the current camera lock + animation lock, a Stego might not have a chance to respond regardless of how they’re standing. It’s not hard to get in front of one. If they’re suddenly two shot, any deino could tank that for a fat meal.

[tiny thicket]

I have seen smarter stegos drinking with their tail pointing to the river

[hollow topaz]

Like I said, not hard to get in front of one

[tall bronze]

Losing ~5 hours to a creature that is completely invisible and literally just has to right click doesn't sound very fun.

Of course that kinda starts to encroach into all the issues Deino has that could be dealt with territory.....

Like the fact that they can see perfectly fine above the surface.....from underwater

[tiny thicket]

what I missed was deino has to put its head on the line to bite the stego, one-two tail shots to head and deino may die so it is high risk high reward.

[hollow topaz]

It’s harder for a Stego to hit the head if they’re head to head already (which would likely be the case since Stego can’t see them coming), so deino would still inevitably have the advantage in that situation. Generally Stego would be getting tail/body shots at that angle.

[tall bronze]

Every day, I yearn for D.rugosus like originally intended

[tiny thicket]

deino would naturally have advantage in that situation as it is an ambush predator if it fails, the stego would immediately go to a defensive stance to protect its head.

[hollow topaz]

Yeah but I still fail to understand how you think it’s reasonable that a creature that takes ~5 hours to grow should be able to be killed nearly instantaneously because it needed to fill the requirements of the game.

[keen plover]

5 head shots currently to kill a deino, unless you're implying stego does more damage now?

[hollow topaz]

They’re making suggestions

[keen plover]

Gotcha. 2 shotting would be horrible though lol

[hollow topaz]

With the speed of their current attacks, it would literally just be whoever saw the other one first. It’s not really a fight, and a huge waste of a growth period.

[tiny thicket]

what I mean is say deino can 2 shot stego in the head, which means stego's head would have 1000 hp(ignoring multipliers), each of its legs would also have 1000 hp, its body would have 2000 hp and tail has say 700 hp its total 7700 hp if it allows deino to bite all body parts

[dusky surge]

so stego sucks

also stego takes 2x damage to the head

[hollow topaz]

Are you implying a deino would have to get each part of the body to win..?

[dusky surge]

so it'd die instantly

[keen plover]

2 shots?????
That's guaranteed on stego if you get the first

[dusky surge]

yea but remember, cool carnivore vs LAME herbivore

[keen plover]

The current matchup is fine. There's literally a lot of deino players that can solo stegos if they stick around by the water. Why would you make the fight instant?

[tall bronze]

I'm all for making Deino feel like an 8T gator, but I'd rather do that through something like a land-based charged bite than letting it remove ~5 hours because it clicked a couple times :C

[hollow topaz]

I don’t really understand why having to target all body parts would be more beneficial? If that’s what you’re trying to say

[keen plover]

Deino literally has fish. Go eat AI. You don't need to hunt everything in the game. Sometimes PvE is fine 👍

[tall bronze]

The fact Deino can survive purely on fish is an issue in itself in my eyes

Or rather, thrive on them

[cerulean sage]

you thrive on deino on just fish?

maybe on a low pop server or early in morning or late at night

but middle of day where are the fish

[tall bronze]

Last I played (which was still in U6) it wasn't that hard to find em. They react a little better for once, but it's still not hard.

[keen plover]

Charged bite is a good idea tbh. I'd also want it to be a bit 'weaker' in terms of a slower base bite, but give it a damage buff to alt attack while increasing stamina cost to 15%

[tall bronze]

I'm all for making Deino's attacks slower but hit like a truck. I despise how it's altbite is actually faster than just biting normally. 😛 (if you look forward)

There's really just a lot about Deino I despise

[hollow topaz]

It’s got some issues lol

[keen plover]

I want deino to be powerful in quick bursts, but really falter when there's a lot of predators around. So it can't go up on land and bully 3 carnos off a kill

[hollow topaz]

Curious to see how deino will change on the new map honestly.

Hopefully it fixes some issues.

[tiny thicket]

Targeting vital parts would be beneficial for taking down playable efficiently

[dusky surge]

but me big predator and big predator must kill all herbivore

[hollow topaz]

What I’m asking is, if there’s two bites to the head, is it dead? Or what is the point you’re trying to make otherwise

[keen plover]

You do that currently

[hollow topaz]

Because targeting the head is already a thing, just.. not as complicated

[dusky surge]

remember everyone, herbivores are nothing but playable food for the much cooler carnivores

[tiny thicket]

two bites to the head stego dies instantly, 100 bites to the tail and it does only 700 damage and stego lives

[tall bronze]

Two bites seems a bit much <:/

[hollow topaz]

Yeah..

[keen plover]

You do realise the moment deino is able to do something like that, the server population for it will go from 50%+ to 75% +

[hollow topaz]

With alt bite, there’s not much fleeing a Stego can do to avoid it.

[tall bronze]

Like ye gotta remember, Deino as it stands can be completely invisible from the Stego. No way to tell it's there. The second it jumps out, that Stego likely cannot react in time and even if it could, it would not be able to defend itself within the time it takes for Deino to bite twice.

Also yeah for some unknown really stupid loathsome reason, altbiting forward is faster than just biting.

[keen plover]

add another deino in and you will 100% get 2 headshots if you both rush it

Not that it would be impossible as 1 deino

[hollow topaz]

A deino, currently, can easily avoid a stego by not going on land or swimming past them drinking. A stego, currently, CAN NOT avoid the water at all.

[cerulean sage]

not to mention crossing water. as well as there would probably be more deino stego mix packing

[keen plover]

^^^

I completely forgot about crossing lmao

[dusky surge]

i'd love a charged bite on land, instead of the grab. Hold RMB to charge up a bite than can do up to or over 1000 damage. While doing it, you open your jaws wide, create a loud hissing sound and can only trot, no sprinting. Makes it capable of defending its waters, at the cost of its stealth

[tiny thicket]

if deinos bite each others head then they will die first so planning and tactics will be required

[keen plover]

They're 1 shotting each other now????

[dusky surge]

apparently

the tactics of "everything one-taps"

[keen plover]

💀 So you can nuke everything as deino then, even yourself

[dusky surge]

i love my survival game where my 5 hours can disappear in 2 seconds!

[hollow topaz]

Planning and tactic is already required

The only thing you’re really suggesting to change is to make their health lower, essentially.

[tiny thicket]

Stego would also provide some of its damage in the situation

[keen plover]

I don't think it could react in time tbf

[dusky surge]

when? before or after the instant kill?

[hollow topaz]

I don’t think you really understand just how fast 2 deino alt bites are

And even if it was just.. normal bites. There’s still an animation lock that can prevent them from responding even if they did see it.

[cerulean sage]

i see you have like a full idea but its hard to tell what your thinking. but if the two shot thing was put in

speaking from experience sometimes when i get headshot from a deino i get spooked and my hands leave the keyboard and mouse, meaning i wouldnt have time to react and just... die

also looking from a new player perspective who would get spooked more often and they just die they would either go deino, making deino more of a problem, another dino (which is fine) or just.. quit cuz of how much damage deino does and they were really looking forward to playing stego but cant because of how many deinos there would be

besides other deinos, stego (At the moment) is the only other way to conrtol deino population

[tiny thicket]

stego eg. would be applicable for every playable, so deino's head will have say 1100 hp ,limbs have 200 hp each, body would have 5000 hp and tail would have 2000 hp

[hollow topaz]

It’s just a strange concept.. I don’t understand how it really adds to the game at all. Half the fun of this is fighting, which can sometimes take up to an hour (I’ve been in fights for that long). If it’s over in two seconds, you’ve eliminated a vast portion of the fun from either side and it’s back to walk-and-die sim. Or swim-and-win, in deino’s case, which is still barely any fun for anyone anyway.

[keen plover]

Forget deino v stego for now. What would deino do to carnos head and tenos?

[tiny thicket]

it would one shot them if attack is to the head else they survive

except for pachy it has armor to the head

[hollow topaz]

Can I ask.. at the very least.. why you think this is a good idea over what we already have?

[tiny thicket]

Bite force and other damage would also need a rework, the point is if I am a solo utah/omni/carno/cerato and I see a deino out of water I would bite off its tiny legs making it vulnerable to stegos, The main problem is that apexes are on whole other league than smaller playables and smaller playables provide no threat, thats why current servers are teeming with apexes coz they have the highest stats and no weak points.

[hollow topaz]

I believe it’s been confirmed that dismemberment won’t be a thing other than in death animations if that’s what you mean.

Also there are no apexes in game yet.

[keen plover]

Your change doesn't stop that. in fact, it makes it so nothing but deino is played

[hollow topaz]

It also somewhat sounds like you’re encouraging mixpacking by having the other dinos wear down the deinos for a steg finisher.

[cerulean sage]

i think what they mean by the making legs useless isnt, dismembering its like a leg break, but... claws and bite, like what indo did to brachy in jurassic

[tiny thicket]

pachies completely immobilizing target leaving it to die, dinos getting eaten alive until heart is plucked out there would be much more brutalities

[keen plover]

So lets say I lose a leg. How do I heal it?

[cerulean sage]

that isnt what was said, i was making an assumption. based off a movie i saw. The indom rex in the jurassic park movie made a brach unable to move by clawing its legs to kill it

[tiny thicket]

yes and it heals independent of the other leg

[keen plover]

I love this guy

[cerulean sage]

but if its lost like it came off how do you heal it?

[tiny thicket]

add some lore that dinos have superior healing like salamanders have stem cells that can somewhat regenerate limbs.

[hollow topaz]

[keen plover]

Even if that was possible... That just adds another level of development for no reason. Since they would require animations to move around with no limbs and... Yeah no

[hollow topaz]

There’s already lore, I’m.. skeptical that they’ll just slot that in

[cerulean sage]

if they did that, they would do that to hypers, not every day dinos

[keen plover]

Forget the lore. That is easy. The development for it would be horrible

All this to reduce apex population?

[stark knoll]

Sounds like it'd do the opposite

[cerulean sage]

deino and stego arnt apexs, last i was told

[hollow topaz]

Also again, I believe it’s been confirmed that dismemberment won’t be a thing because it’s too cruel to expect players to survive with those disabilities

[stark knoll]

Yup

[cerulean sage]

yup to both or to gator?

[tiny thicket]

The lore doesnt explain why carnos always break their left leg every time.

[hollow topaz]

..what does that have to do with anything?

[cerulean sage]

*✨ Graviety✨ *

weight

base understanding of those two things

[hollow topaz]

(I think they mean the left leg specifically because of their limp animation)

[cerulean sage]

i didnt see left ngl

[hollow topaz]

But still failing to grasp how any of the original point is meant to improve the game at all. It does nothing other than provide frustration and less of a chance of surviving in general, which is.. not great for a game that’s about surviving.

[cerulean sage]

gator right, i dont see what that has to do with anything.

But to comment on your thing, its not a lore thing, its a development thing, they havnt or dont plan to implement it

[tiny thicket]

I mean surviving as an apex would be hard keeping their population in check

[hollow topaz]

Again, don’t think there’s apexes in game yet according to the devs.

Additionally, it would only make everyone play deino.

That’s not keeping anything in check.

Survival rate of EVERYTHING going down means people start quitting the game because they can’t stay alive, or switching to a beefier dinosaur, which is the opposite of what you’re trying to suggest.

[tiny thicket]

beefier dinos also take the most time and only few will survive till adulthood

[hollow topaz]

Yeah. Hence the quitting part. Who would want to waste the time? The game would die, or again, EVERYONE would be deino.

[stark knoll]

Both

[dusky surge]

i still dont get why stego and deino arent apexes

[cerulean sage]

they have big plans for rex and such

[dusky surge]

i dont see why that means deino and stego need to be kicked down so far

if stego is too weak to fight apexes, yet remains as slow as it is

stego is worthless

if deino is supposed to live in waterways, yet spino can EASILY kill it and performs much better than it on land, deino will be entirely confined to large rivers, and completely obliterated during any drought period

just seems weird to demote these animals to tiers that they absolutely dont belong in

[thin mantle]

Also feels really weird just relegating any animal to what is essentially fodder simply because it deserves predators...
It's the same logic people who support current dryo make for how it performs against everything else...
"dryo should be easy prey for larger animals because it's a low time investment animal, so you don't lose much if you die"
As if that's any excuse

Not the same argument but still annoying

make everything viable, and probably the best way to make these overwhelmingly slow animals viable is to make them defensible to animals bigger than them

Or not even that tbf....they can just be upsized if that's ABSOLUTELY necessary

[dusky surge]

i am always on the "everything viable" team

nothing should be considered dead because it ran into another animal

[thin mantle]

I'm not even sure where the opposing mentality comes from tbh

What is the point of having an unviable playable

[dusky surge]

people dont like stego

so stego obviously deserves to die when rex sees it

or, the even better statement, "just get a herd lol"

[thin mantle]

Well people didn't like U5 omni, rightfully so in that case, now they love omni as the beaten stepchild of the game that it's being made out to be regardless of overtuning from other animals....just flips whenever the power dynamic shifts

[thin mantle]

That kind of argument only works when the animal in question has a lot of mobility..stego just doesn't xD

[dusky surge]

the latest balance feedback post proves the whole "something deserves to suffer because it made me suffer" mentality

[thin mantle]

It's such a weird place to find a "cycle of revenge"

For a playable option in a video game...something with literally no autonomous action, a purely inanimate object

[dusky surge]

people like to emote things a lot with this game

[keen plover]

Omni players expecting to be able to fend off & kill carnos via skill

[dusky surge]

partially because they feel invested in their animals

[thin mantle]

Don't remind me of the "how come omni doesn't solo stego" debate from a few days back

[keen plover]

?????????????

[thin mantle]

Which I understand ofc, everyone has their main, but it shouldn't preclude objectivity :p

[dusky surge]

my fave argument "every animal should be able to 1v1 every animal"

[thin mantle]

oh god

[dusky surge]

hypsi vs brachi? that should happen

100%

[thin mantle]

Yeah you missed a real banger, that was fun....Someone getting baffled that a sub stego can oneshot an adult omni with poor timing and no dismount positioning

[dusky surge]

OH YEA, I WAS THERE LOL

[thin mantle]

Yeah you dipped early xD
That was smart

[dusky surge]

hysterical, dude genuinely was baffled that a sub-adult stego could one-tap an adult omni

[keen plover]

Sub stego is easy to kill as a pack though. The range is worse and the bloodpool is really low lmao

well low compared to a full adult

[thin mantle]

Bro the proposed solution was for omni to be able to tank at least 10 hits from an adult stego

Genuinely

[keen plover]

bruh

I don't think they were serious then, right?

[thin mantle]

"Percentage based damage"

[dusky surge]

i was at work, and tuning in to see the madness

[thin mantle]

Dead serious, we discussed it for about an hour

[dusky surge]

they were, i watched

[thin mantle]

So the idea is that stego does 10% of an omnis hp...wheras omni deals 2% of stegos

Per hit....this would naturally make perfect sense

[keen plover]

💀

[dusky surge]

they also brought up a video of kav fighting a stego to back their case

as a "good omni player"

kav didn't aim their dismount at all, flew into a hill, and died

[thin mantle]

Where Kav doesn't even dismount to the front of the stego...and dismounts after the endlag of a jab....with basically no obstacles...it was a free dismount...

[dusky surge]

he also pounced at a completely inopportune time

but obviously that shouldn't have been punished

[thin mantle]

Too cruel

And the option of "what if you just don't hunt the stego" was too outlandish an option for some reason

Like if you aren't confident taking on a target that is more than balanced to counter you...maybe don't?

Not that a low sub stego isn't basically a free kill for 3 omnis

[dusky surge]

lets just ignore the stego's HORRID stam regen that is massively worsened by bleed

[thin mantle]

You can literally count the amount of attacks it has before it basically just dies

Regardless of diet or age

The only thing that makes it a hard target is terrain

Which is literally the point

All abilities are helped and hindered by terrain to massive degrees

This isn't a unique "issue"

[dusky surge]

i love how people also see rex as some kind of saviour because everything about it implies it will do what stego already does but better, and wipe stegos off the map

so you guys are fine if a carnivore rules the land, kills everything and invalidates animals, but a herbivore? how dare they

[thin mantle]

When a herbivore is objectively preferable in all circumstances

A herbi isn't going to eat the corpse they steal

[dusky surge]

the isle community:
"the isle is carni biased"

also the isle community, when it isn't carni biased:
"cant wait for rex to be added so all the stegos die hahahahaha"

[thin mantle]

I've really just never understood the horror stories of stego

For me personally it's borderline never hindered my gameplay to any significant degree since it was added

[dusky surge]

i honestly like stegos, they're cool to look at

[thin mantle]

If you're playing any animal that isn't stego you can at the bare minimum escape it

[dusky surge]

they're this big lumbering thing you can kinda just watch and it won't really do anything but mind its own business

[thin mantle]

Quite cinematic...when z walking...man i want a stego reanimation renaissance

[dusky surge]

i need more animals that just mind their own business until something messes with them

big fan of them

[thin mantle]

Yeah same, I'm sorta tired of everything being a threat that the entire roster needs to be capable of countering in some way

The slow defensive types are always easier to take liberties with

[dusky surge]

the thing i want from anky is 95% of the animals to just do nothing to it

[thin mantle]

Same

[dusky surge]

i want gigas to literally give up against it

[thin mantle]

Sits down, negates your existence

[dusky surge]

i want this thing to be entirely harmless if you mind your own damn business

and this enrages people, the concept that an animal doesn't need to be in 500 fights a second to continue survival

[thin mantle]

Like a deino on land might be able to catch up to it...but it won't want to

[dusky surge]

i honestly would want anky to have collision so you can have stuff like pteras and raptors just riding on its back lol

not even fighting, just resting on the wandering anky

free transport

[thin mantle]

The natural complaint that I get a lot is "well what's going to keep it's population in check if it barely has threats"

And for one

It has to grow, even if it's a super tough juvi/sub...it will be capable of death...

And second

Of all the apex tier animals to be overpopulated, you want it to be something like anky of all things

[thin mantle]

That would be lovely

[dusky surge]

let the animals CO-EXIST

PLEASE

Less of the constant war, more of animals just kinda vibing

Anky is a constant vibe, I demand it be that

[thin mantle]

Imagine calling mixpacking on an animal that is not only terrible at defending other animals...but is slow af

[dusky surge]

Anky would be hysterical in a mixpack

[thin mantle]

The beipi's and the anky are mixpacking...woe is me

How dare thee

[dusky surge]

Everyone's out on the hunt and he's... he's doing his best

"GUYS MIXPACKERS ON EU4"

Meanwhile, on EU4, some beipis are relaxing on an anky's back and the anky is just chilling out

[keen plover]

lmao

[thin mantle]

But how will the troodons possibly feed themselves!??!?!?!!

[dusky surge]

Like. Let things chill out for two goddamn seconds, not everything needs to be in constant odds with each other

God, I even want Kentro, because it is another example of a "leave me the hell alone and we can chill". Same with cera

[thin mantle]

Mhm, kentro magy cerato...etc

All a ton of vibey defenders

Need more of that

[dusky surge]

I need more animals that people get mad at because they don't inherently crave combat 24/7

I want dryo and hypsi to be that, but they're too incomplete

[keen plover]

Also, with a proper weight scale system for deino.
Would you guys find it interesting for omnis to be able to dive? They are already pretty decent swimmers. Just thought it would be interesting to see them hunt small deinos if they spot them. (Although a big risk with adult deinos around, I thought it would be a bit fun).

I use to enjoy jumping in waters to hunt juvi deinos when you could still see their blood outlines .

[dusky surge]

I don't really like the idea of omni encroaching on every damn ecosystem

Like, it's already designed to be EVERYWHERE

[thin mantle]

Yeah same

[keen plover]

I think it would be fine personally. It wouldn't be the best there

[thin mantle]

Let that go to cerato if anything

[keen plover]

I would be fine with that actually

[thin mantle]

Tbf I do support everything having a limited capacity for diving

With some animals just being way better at it

[keen plover]

Cerato diving sounds dope actually lol

[thin mantle]

I don't think submerging should be super unique...just how good you are at it

[keen plover]

Yeah that could be fine as well

[thin mantle]

Like a carno can TECHNICALLY go underwater...but it's tantamount to drowning itself with extra steps

[keen plover]

Yeah that would be neat. Also you could mess around with the range some creatures could see if they did dive.
I think it would be fine personally. I kind of want smaller semi aquatics to be more effective in water, but still be threatened by a few land creatures that are decent in the water. Whether that is cerato or omni

[thin mantle]

Mhm, definitely don't want omni to have aquatic proficiency to basically any degree tho personally...water should be a good obstacle when pouncing

[keen plover]

Oh yeah not pouncing, bites and whatever else attacks they would need to give omni in water. I know it makes omni able to go anywhere, but there are still risks involved with going into water. It doesn't have the swim the fastest or see the best

[thin mantle]

Well I think they should just suck at swimming in general....dismounting into water should be easy to follow up on

Like a dismounting omni would take a bit of time to reach the opposite shore

[keen plover]

Yeah that's fine. They would only be in there for a bit anyway. Like you spot a small deino or whatever else, dive in and attack. A quick ambush pretty much

[thin mantle]

Mhm, which again i still think is an insane plan given how it can just swim away

Like even making omni a decent ish swimmer wouldn't make it good for this

If it's not onetapping it's prolly not getting that kill even on a fresh spawn

Which is why cerato makes more sense for that

[keen plover]

I guess that's true, however deino isn't the only semi aquatic and it's only as large as it is currently due to the weight scale

[thin mantle]

Mhm, but the literal only animal omni would be able to do this against is beipi....and if the beipi isn't literally stationary there's no way in hell an omni is catching that...

[keen plover]

But yeah, Cerato would be a better candidate

[keen plover]

I personally think deino should spawn pretty small. I get that it's the current largest creature in the game, but it spawns too large and gains weight too quickly. Current fresh spawn deino would be able to lunge a beipi and drown it

[thin mantle]

Oh well so do I...I just think omni has essentially no place bothering semi aquatics that aren't on land...because it already hunts literally everything on land because it's ability facilitates a titanic range

[keen plover]

Fair enough. Well, Cerato will do well with that anyways and be able to hunt deinos at larger growth stages as well 😄

[thin mantle]

Yeye

If growth scaling changes that is

Because if it remains as is....a 10% deino is lunging a cera and winning

[keen plover]

It should. Deino should be < 2t for a lot of its life anyways imo

[thin mantle]

Agreed

Rex growth curve or even more dramatic bare minimum

Deino should spend the tail end of it's growth being able to lunge what it already does

[keen plover]

Yeah exactly

[thin mantle]

It's not even necessarily in the interest of depowering it for longer...I just genuinely find small deino FAR more fun to play than large deino

And it's list of actual matchups goes through the roof

[keen plover]

Yeah and it currently has such a short growth time when compared to its power

[vagrant coyote]

I have.. many questions

[keen plover]

🤔

[thin mantle]

I don't even think it's power can be justified by growth times...the security of size it gets from a longer growth doesn't impact it at all because water denies retaliation from anything and everything...other deino's obviously don't count since they'd always be the same size...

Like the only animal deino's size is ever going to matter against is spino

That's it

Plus it's ability is just a 4k dmg bite with an activation limit

[keen plover]

Eh true in that regards. I just find the growth time, size and ability to be kind of crazy. I guess balancing around growth time might be a poor idea, but if deinos grow for longer and are much smaller for longer, I think that it would be a fine way to approach it. So they are at risk for longer to larger deinos, barys & whatever else. I can't imagine any other 4 hour grow having the power deino & stego currently have. I doubt it stays as is when more things are added anyways

[thin mantle]

Oh trust me I also think it's too low for how strong it is...tho ultimately I don't even think deino is limited by the concept of balance since lunge is just....not balanceable....at least internally

It requires environmental conditions being changed for it to work...which we just haven't gotten yet

Otherwise it gets depowered to a really awkward state...or the balancing solutions just simply don't change anything

Like tug of war is just...bad

It essentially alters nothing, and I'm glad that idea is dying

[keen plover]

Yeah it just doesn't work in a game like this. Any version of it in game would suck to be on the receiving end of

[keen plover]

Lunge is something we kind of have to accept. As sad as it is. Even Deino. We need to just guide it in a way where it isn't as oppressive 😦

[thin mantle]

Mhm, it's one of the reasons why fps games with oneshots that aren't ubiquitous oneshots are so hated...when one character or weapon can onetap anyone but others can't...why use anything else?

[thin mantle]

Yeah I just want pretty general clear drinking water

Rivers can stay thicc

I suppose...but everywhere else should be a case of "if you got lunged you definitely deserve it"

[keen plover]

Areas where in certain migration periods - Deino can't vibe in. Like Lakes, ponds and whatever else. Let the other semi aquatics hunt there

[thin mantle]

Well not even just for the sake of other semis...tho that is incredibly important....
I genuinely don't think deino should be an animal making kills on any competent players

Deino has a hunting method that can only be justified in succeeding against utter fools

[keen plover]

Eh. Depends. Lets say migration takes you to an area by wide rivers and the only other water sources are dried up. What then?

[thin mantle]

I just don't think that should exist as a scenario

You shouldn't be forced to "risk" lunge

You're just gambling senselessly with permadeath

Other sources of water should be available that won't have that issue

If the players dumb enough to do so want to drink from it...that's fine

[vagrant coyote]

Wait, so you want deino, an animal with a 5-6 hour grow time that can only really hunt its main food groups effectively towards the end of that time, to be completely boring and unrewarding to play throughout?

Your effectively asking for all deinos to just sit and starve to death for 5 hours because theres nothing to eat

[thin mantle]

No, I want deino to be flightier during growth and rely less on lunge

[thin mantle]

Well first of all, other deinos cover that concern, fish do as well...if anything this just extends the period of growth where dienos require less food

And second, the existence of other semi aquatics quells the concern of their being nothing to do

[vagrant coyote]

ok, my bad

[thin mantle]

On top of dieno by design, being the most patience and waiting based animal in the game

That's the point of it, this appeals to some, not everyone

Which is why other semiaquatics that are more active will exist alongside it

[vagrant coyote]

your just asking to not play in the same game as dienos because you dont like risk in a survival game

[thin mantle]

To a degree yes, but you're entirely mischaracterizing my motive.
Death via deino is entirely skill deprived, you died because you happened to drink at a spot where one existed....
You couldn't have seen it coming, and lunge isn't dodgeable by anything in the roster unless the deino misses...which is basically not possible unless the player has eye problems.

I don't think it's hunting style as is is good for the game, nor do I think it should exist...risk in a survival game shouldn't be "At a point during my progression their should be a chance that I will absolutely be killed by something relatively out of my control"...it's the goal of games like this to mitigate those deaths as much as possible and instead have the cause of death be the fault of the player, entirely avoidable if proper measures were taken

You cannot do this for deino, you can only reduce the chance that you'll encounter one

If you do, you die...this is incredibly bad for a permadeath game

Tbf it's bad for any multiplayer game but especially for one with consequences as grievous as this one

[vagrant coyote]

so your looking for some way to completely avoid dying to a deino, correct?

[thin mantle]

Yes, as there is for basically all other playables

[vagrant coyote]

alright, let me explain why i think this is a really dumb (no offense) idea

If i give you two apples

[thin mantle]

Mhm

[vagrant coyote]

and i tell you outright the one on the left has a 20% chance of shooting you when you take a bite, and the other is completely safe

which are you going to pick?

[thin mantle]

The one that won't kill me

[vagrant coyote]

exactly

[thin mantle]

And I know what point you're making

The issue is that deino's hunting style isn't nuanced enough to justify skilled players to be killed by it

You're making the entire roster an involuntary victim

Regardless of how good they are

[vagrant coyote]

You understand that by this point instead of just taking the risk every time, you couldve just planned out when youll need water and memorize where crocs usually are, right?

ive gotten eaten by a croc once in 100 hours by doing that

[thin mantle]

But you're still taking the risk every single time, because no matter where you drink a croc COULD be there

This isn't counterplay this is gambling

Well I shouldn't say NO MATTER where

Cuz spiro is weird like that

[vagrant coyote]

yea-

[dusky surge]

spiro bad

[thin mantle]

Spiro embarassing

[keen plover]

There will be a lot of system in place to where you might have to risk getting grabbed. Drought is coming for example. What if the only water source is where a Deino is 100% at. Do you just die?

The thing with Deino is, you kind of have to accept it as is. There won't be any changes to it even if it's BS to play against. At most, you make it difficult to where there isn't a lot of them.

Migration, drought & whatever else might force you to come into contact with Deino

[vagrant coyote]

exactly my point

[thin mantle]

Oh yeah how could I forget...migrations make player movements predictable

[thin mantle]

Well that's actually not true, a fix has already been implemented on gateway

Water clarity, literally solves the whole issue

[keen plover]

At lakes, yeah

[dusky surge]

also there's a small lake that one of my mates figured out how to fit an 8 ton deino into lol

[thin mantle]

Not that it makes deino any less boring to play as since it's ability is just...not fun to use...but yeah

[thin mantle]

Mhm, diversified spots to drink...etc

Like this is a problem that has been acknowledged and addressed without fundamentally altering deino

[keen plover]

But what if the migration paths are by rivers away from the lakes?

[thin mantle]

Which was the goal...

[keen plover]

The rivers are still muddy

and even wider

[thin mantle]

Ideally migration won't be so restrictive as to prevent drinking from a water source that will absolutely kill you

[keen plover]

True.

[thin mantle]

Because again, migrations just make player locations that much more predictable, that's just free food

[dusky surge]

the rivers are awesome

[thin mantle]

Also bridges....

[vagrant coyote]

Fluff it just sounds to me like you really dont like crocs getting to play the game once in a blue moon-

[thin mantle]

Which come with their own host of challenges

[keen plover]

I mean for good reason tbf.

[thin mantle]

Sorta, I find them overwhelmingly poorly designed, nothing against deino players obv...I expected for more for an animal I highly anticipated

So my disappointment is, as bird put it, is reasoned

I don't just hate deino because it's deino

[keen plover]

I wanted it removed for the longest personally, but it can be worked around

[vagrant coyote]

Yea, I feel that, I feel exactly the same way about carno

[thin mantle]

Same, carno less so by a titanic margin, but carno is also rather embarrassing atm

The only animal I think has a genuinely fantastic design rn is tenonto

Easiest animal in the game to balance next to stego

[vagrant coyote]

I agree

I fought a teno as a raptor 1v1, and it was the most fun ive had in a while

i even got his lungs as a reward

[thin mantle]

Mhm, not a fight you should by any means win ofc...but no matter the numbers you'll always enjoy fighting a teno

Oh wow that was an impressively awful teno

[vagrant coyote]

Oh really?

[thin mantle]

yeah a teno shouldn't be going down to less than 3-4 omnis

Omni is not meant to be 1v1ing much of anything

[vagrant coyote]

idk, i feel like i just have a really good hunting strategy

[thin mantle]

Doesn't matter how good you are honestly...that teno sucked

Like not even a god tier omni should win that fight

[vagrant coyote]

yea, i agree

[thin mantle]

That's a jackal trying to tackle a water buffalo

And that buffalo has a sword xD

[vagrant coyote]

he didnt know how to buck, he only knew if he ran me into a tree hed get to one shot me

it was actually adorable

[thin mantle]

Which ironically doesn't work often rn

collision dismounts haven't been working consistently for awhile

[vagrant coyote]

well, i would always jump off and run away right before he got to the tree

i even tracked him into a whole forest and he still didnt manage it

[thin mantle]

Yeah that teno was....wow

[vagrant coyote]

I was so proud of myself until now

[thin mantle]

Never touched a keyboard and mouse in their life xD

[vagrant coyote]

honestly

[thin mantle]

Literally stand NEXT TO A TREE

Go near a rock...just catch it in the attempt

anything

[vagrant coyote]

well, he tried running away instead xD

[thin mantle]

Wow

When he's slower with less stamina overall...and requires stamina to attack

As a teno main I'm so sorry on our kind's behalf

[vagrant coyote]

no no, it was fun being able to kill something as a solo utah

[thin mantle]

True true

[vagrant coyote]

i thank you on my kinds behalf

[thin mantle]

xD

I'd imagine that is quite rare for an animal not at all designed to be 1v1ing

[vagrant coyote]

i think i did end up getting dissemboweled by a carno like 20 mins later tho

i image i was not pleased

[thin mantle]

Did you go in the plains?

[vagrant coyote]

Yea, the teno ran me around in the forest north west of plains

[thin mantle]

Ah gotcha...yeah makes sense...if you were still in the forest I'd have

Questions xD

[vagrant coyote]

I probably wouldve uninstalled after i alt f4d

god i despise carno

[thin mantle]

Not sure why it's even in the game rn

[vagrant coyote]

i guess for me its like the problem you have with deino

[thin mantle]

Same with deino...it just hard counters the entire roster

Like at least stego is slow obvious and literally can't kill anything that doesn't throw itself at it

But carno and deino both have mandatory interactions with everything

[vagrant coyote]

literally no counterplay, cant run, cant dodge, cant outstam

yea

[dusky surge]

eh, i think the biggest issue with carno is its hitbox

[thin mantle]

Moreso for carno because of how charge works rn

Hitbox + knockdown range make it a big issue

[dusky surge]

yep

ALSO map design

[thin mantle]

Teno just dies...omni just dies...dryo just dies...everything is plains

[dusky surge]

carno on gateway won't be nearly as dominant

[thin mantle]

Pachy only hard counters carno because pachy is also an op piece of work

[dusky surge]

especially if they actually make animals live anywhere that isnt the same plains

[thin mantle]

And if forests aren't terrible

Which they don't seem to be

[keen plover]

I hate pachy more than Carno

[dusky surge]

forests are really damn cool

[dusky surge]

same, i despise it

[vagrant coyote]

ik, like who was drunk enough to think its funny to make the hitbox for a charging animal twice the size of the charging animal and extend foreward a good bit

[thin mantle]

Well...same...but specifically because I have a worse chance against them as a teno than I do against a carno

[keen plover]

Well when you fight it, it's BS. But when you are the Pachy, it's fun. Same with Deino. Bad balance though

[dusky surge]

that's only due to the fact that the charge used to be worthless, back when it was an "ambush tool"

so they kept buffing the hitbox to compensate for how worthless it was

[vagrant coyote]

put it back that way, carnos need some pain right now

[dusky surge]

now it's actually a move that fits the niche of the animal and doesn't suck

[dusky surge]

please god no

[keen plover]

Not a good way to balance

[thin mantle]

I still am just baffled by the roster at large tbh....if carno was cerato instead....a lot of balancing issues could basically just be forgotten about...but since carno can engage anything in the game because of pure speed

[thin mantle]

Nah...I want the game to be fun for everything

[keen plover]

You should be making everything have fun

[thin mantle]

Balancing out of spite or "justice" is entirely nonsensical

[vagrant coyote]

except deinos? lol

[dusky surge]

deinos are silly

i like them conceptually but they are silly

[vagrant coyote]

theyre a bit goofy wacky

[thin mantle]

I think having to try....at all...when ambushing would actually make it far more fun

I think having a hunting style that is entirely chance based is lame

[vagrant coyote]

you know, that sounds a lot like a certain horned disease i was just talking about-

[thin mantle]

Well...carno isn't an ambush predator

[dusky surge]

carno ambushes were worthless

calling them ambushes is really an overstatement of kindness

[thin mantle]

And even if it was brought up to carno's awful level...that'd still be better than what it is now

[thin mantle]

Allow me to catch a target off guard as one of the tallest, loudest...fastest... and most obvious predators in the entire game barring like...2

Wonderful

And of those 2 one of them is spino

Because big

[vagrant coyote]

bru, you dont get to call them loud until you can hear them coming xD

[keen plover]

2 changes that will fix charge is a stamina cost like we've stated a few times. 5% to activate
&
Reducing the hitbox

[keen plover]

Sound is bugged tbf

[thin mantle]

Carno...the only animal in the game with an ability that makes noise before it's being used...

Also sound is bugged

I think carno should be far louder than it is rn

[vagrant coyote]

yes

[fresh laurel]

when are we uh gonna make deinos be stunned after running out of stam from a grabbed prey, I mean if a deino fails to have enough stamina, they should be punished better instead of just leaving them able to still bite said prey to death anyways removing some of the counterplay

[thin mantle]

It has always been funny to me that deino's lungeable targets get killed almost just as easily out of lunge than they are within it

Like releasing a target in water doesn't mean it has a shot of escaping

[vagrant coyote]

or give them a bite weakness due to muscle fatigue from their prey breaking free

[fresh laurel]

It doesnt at all, deino 500 dmg bite still mercs prey easily

so I think making them have to actually manage stamina a tad bit more by punishing them harder would be better overall

like even giving a possible chance to small tiers like pachy ig

[thin mantle]

That'd actually be pretty neat...tho bodyblocking is still...well, untouched

you can perpetually keep a prey item in the water by just swimming next to it

Cuz collision is great

[fresh laurel]

that wouldnt fix body blocking that well tbh
I want something that guarantees a proper punish

[thin mantle]

Just great

[vagrant coyote]

hey, its not croccys fault hes gained some weight

[thin mantle]

Well...I think collision in general is just stupid in this game

Contacting another hitbox just stops you

[fresh laurel]

anyways, I think ima suggest a stun punish maybe of like 2 seconds or 3?

[thin mantle]

Not force you around it...just stops you

[fresh laurel]

i dont want the stun to be too long but long enough for most prey to touch land again

[thin mantle]

Sounds about right...especially given how absurdly rare it is for a deino to lack the stam to kill a target

[keen plover]

Stuns are universal, aren't they?

[fresh laurel]

is teno the only one that can hold e to drain deino stam faster? I heard that or somethin

[thin mantle]

Universal?

[keen plover]

So the timer will be the same?

[thin mantle]

Ideally yes

Because it's a matter of poor stamina management rather than a relationship with the animals size

Altering it based on the target wouldn't really make much sense, since it has nothing to do with them

[fresh laurel]

anyways so ima suggest

Deinosuchus should get stunned for about 2 or 3 seconds for letting go of a lunged target

[thin mantle]

Go for it....the realism crowd won't like it but...not much about deino is realistic anyway

So yknow

[vagrant coyote]

1.5 seconds is good

[thin mantle]

Well...idk that's essentially nothing

You let go and it has enough time to reach the surface before you've regained complete agency

Especially in gateways larger rivers

You'd die...for sure

[vagrant coyote]

well, i also had the idea that a deino that loses all its stam in that particular way would sink to the bottom and be unable to ascend for around 20-30 seconds

cuz hes stunned, right?

[fresh laurel]

suggested it

[fresh laurel]

thats just nothing

hell I think 2 seconds is too small considering gateway rivers lol

[keen plover]

I mean once you're taken down in those rivers, you're dead

[fresh laurel]

I still wouldnt mind seeing my prey escape and survive if I decide to not watch my stamina after lunging them

[vagrant coyote]

so the teno wriggles loose, kicks the croc in the face, which stuns it, making it sink to the bottom of the river where it has to recover for a bit

[fresh laurel]

I doubt teno kick packs enough punch IN WATER to get a deino not going up for 20 or 30 seconds-

but in actuality, seems a bit too extra

when its better to do something more simple?

[thin mantle]

It's the dieno being fatigued, not necessarily the animal beating a concussion into it

[vagrant coyote]

exactly

[thin mantle]

Also 20-30 seconds is...LONG

[vagrant coyote]

yea,but i wanted to guarentee an escape

[thin mantle]

Like 10....max...and I even think that's an extreme we'd only be able to reach by seeing how this works

[fresh laurel]

at that point, why not just give a longer stun for letting go of a lunged prey

[vagrant coyote]

because my idea is cooler

:<

[thin mantle]

Same. If a deino manages to somehow go into a lunge on low stam....you shouldn't make that kill...the mechanic is very simply and you have no reason to spend stam sprinting

[fresh laurel]

um, ok

[thin mantle]

Well I'm fine with that too

[fresh laurel]

Do any of the other playables have the ability to drain deino stamina faster, I hear teno can by holding e

[thin mantle]

No

I can't believe this is still believed xD

[vagrant coyote]

i think your thinking about bucking a raptor

[thin mantle]

This myth has been getting debunked relentlessly for almost 2 years

I don't blame you ofc

[fresh laurel]

nah just going by what I heard

[thin mantle]

Whoever told you that should be banished to uganda

[fresh laurel]

A

[thin mantle]

Let them learn the price of misinformation

[vagrant coyote]

no, South Sudan

[thin mantle]

[fresh laurel]

North korea-

[thin mantle]

Even better, the country my brain defaults to in all things is uganda tho...whether it be negative or positive

[vagrant coyote]

yea-

[thin mantle]

No clue why...I guess it's just fun to say

[fresh laurel]

anyways, uh
still want to add as much counterplay to deino and its lunged victims as can be reasonably added since lunge rn is kinda just a instant death

for you know, drinking as normal

[vagrant coyote]

And I still want a pack of 2-3 omnis to be as much of an apex as a sub carno

[thin mantle]

No, nothing should be as powerful as sub carno

[vagrant coyote]

Alas, some dreams are not meant to be lived

[thin mantle]

Not even sub carno

[fresh laurel]

I just want more fun younger utah gameplay that isnt just a heavily nerfed adult

[keen plover]

You know what really pisses me off more than being drowned by a deino?
Being grabbed by one while the other bites you

[thin mantle]

Well...same...but for everything

If niche partitioning actually existed...

[thin mantle]

Hehe....same

[fresh laurel]

I mean carno at least has almost infinite ram

but other than that, idk

[thin mantle]

Not even just because it's more annoying...but because that means 2 deinos are cooperating

Which is....pain

[keen plover]

I can't tell you how many times I've been grabbed on land while another deino bites

[vagrant coyote]

Honestly, carno would be fine, even with the hitboxes, if they made sub ad have the same stamina as adult, but make it weaker than adult

[thin mantle]

Which it shouldn't...god I hate juvi stam

Across the board

[thin mantle]

No...sub carno is a 65 kmh demon with a 100 dmg bite...there is no justifying that

[fresh laurel]

they kinda need it until the map becomes even more juvie friendly
maybe with gateway

[thin mantle]

1 ton...65 kmh...100dmg bite...225ish dmg charge

[vagrant coyote]

fair

new idea

[keen plover]

Which is why they should either not let Deino grab on land or greatly increase the stamina cost while holding something on land. While the prey doesn't lose any stamina as well

[vagrant coyote]

concrete shoes for carno

[thin mantle]

I still think deino should just get a charge bite on land...no lunge

[fresh laurel]

yo add a bucking system to deino lunge, it will be fun
(trust)

[thin mantle]

One that relegates it to z walk levels of speed an makes loads of noise but does a ton of damage

Purely defensive, and drains stam during it's held duration

[keen plover]

Yeah that works best imo. Can only really lunge something in the water or on the bank

[fresh laurel]

deino tail whip cus irl croc tails actually are strong man, I mean would be a defensive for deino but no point in alt biting them unless that was deino alt attack

[vagrant coyote]

unironically a great idea

[vagrant coyote]

deino alt special?

[fresh laurel]

probably

[thin mantle]

I'm sick of people getting bugged that they can't easily kill a stego because deino had a strong irl biteforce...let it be shown in game without collapsing balance pls

Landlocked slow moving charged bite

[fresh laurel]

but how would one make that balanced, a tail whip that covers deino back side
unless we wanna just enforce the idea of dont mess with deino even more on land which im not against

[keen plover]

Alt special? As in another attack for deino?

[fresh laurel]

since, uh dont play with crocs kids?

[thin mantle]

I don't like it honestly...

Kinda just makes deino more of an impenetrable fortress than it already is

[keen plover]

High HP even if you get past the defense

[thin mantle]

Let alone the ability to entirely negate any land based threat by entering the water

And any water based threat by existing at all

Cuz big

[fresh laurel]

I feel its a move that should come when deino is dealing with much more threats like other apexes or spino in general

[vagrant coyote]

I mean, if you make it do no real damage, just knowback and stun for like .5 seconds

[keen plover]

Deino should be weaker on land imo. Slower bite and only really good in quick fights

[thin mantle]

Nah, it doesn't need it at all for that purpose

[vagrant coyote]

ooo, maybe make it more of a leg sweep

[thin mantle]

Small chip damage only relevant when running away on land for an animal designed to be close to helpless on land to counterbalance it's complete control over all aquatic biomes

[keen plover]

The current strength of land deino means that it can technically walk up pretty far and take the food from 3 carnos. I hate it

[fresh laurel]

I imagine it being a good stun get away from large water threats, but we dont know how fast water spino will be

[thin mantle]

It shouldn't have that at all

[fresh laurel]

utah mfs when deino takes its well earned meal

[thin mantle]

Like this essentially makes deino entirely immortal even with spino in the game

[vagrant coyote]

Tf you talking about?

[thin mantle]

Like there's no way in hell spino would be faster than deino in water on top of being larger and stronger

[keen plover]

Ah. Pretty simple concept tbf

Just trot to get a kill. Have full stamina as a deino and carnos aren't that scary

[vagrant coyote]

Deino could barely take the food from one carno that way, if theres 3 that deinos trippin

[fresh laurel]

galloping baby deinos when

[keen plover]

You trot faster than they can drag

[thin mantle]

I feel like we're playing two separate games....

Like if a deino is coming for your food, and there isn't a stego in sight...you lose that food

[keen plover]

^ A good deino will have full stamina and can just whip around and alt attack

It's pretty easy to bully a carno off a kill

[thin mantle]

Not like carno has enough coordination as an animal to land anything but tail hits

[keen plover]

Get one good hit and they won't come back

[fresh laurel]

yall be forgetting utahs man
deino have a much easier time stealing from them, just sadge

[thin mantle]

Actually they don't ironically

Omni's have a better matchup against deino than carno

[vagrant coyote]

yea, cuz they can pounce

carnos can cry

[thin mantle]

Mainly because deino's alt has LOADS of endlag

So it's so easy to dismount with a pack backing you

Also deino is very VERY easy to bait, and dodge

You can straight up bite them to death at a certain point

[vagrant coyote]

ik, its really fun

[fresh laurel]

well, then again omni dmg simply wont really stack up fast enough to scare deino sheer 8k hp
the bleed sure, but by then deino could probably make it to the water with said food to heal

[thin mantle]

I don't even mind it that much...and I notoriously dislike pounce mechanically

[fresh laurel]

unless deino is going stupid close inland, which yea it will have trouble dealing with omni bleed considering omni can just retrigger said bleed easily

[keen plover]

pounce makes you drop food iirc

[thin mantle]

It does

[keen plover]

although the deino could just eat it there, tank the hits and get to water

[thin mantle]

You're not getting back to the water with your food

[thin mantle]

Pounce also interrupts eating

And eating has a cancel animation...which for deino is VERY long

[keen plover]

oh in that case, yeah you have a decent chance

[thin mantle]

Like the deino is not eating that body

[vagrant coyote]

decent?

[fresh laurel]

most utahs probably would get too cocky in a situation and die funny enough

[thin mantle]

If there are like...3 of you

[keen plover]

Protecting your food on land. Not killing it

[thin mantle]

It's actually favorable...you don't need to kill the deino...just pressure it off your kill...which you can do quite easily

[vagrant coyote]

mhm

[fresh laurel]

I imagine deino sheer hp will allow deino the chance to also scare the raptors off a bit as one mistake on a raptor part is a gg
I wanna see some gameplay of this

dont feel like playing the game for a while

🦈

[thin mantle]

Well tbf...that's omni's entire playstyle, which is why omni's abilities make avoiding mistakes easier than most

[keen plover]

Thoughts on this:

Deino changes for land gameplay:

• Slower base bite (lmb). Currently 1 second, I'd make it 2.

• Increase alt bite to 600n, while keeping the same speed. Increase stamina cost to 15%

• Give it a charged bite like the others suggested. So while on land, hold RMB
  to charge up a bite.

• No lunge on land

[vagrant coyote]

honestly same, im so ready for troodon

[fresh laurel]

yes but again, a sheer 8k hp is going to take quite a lot to take down but then you can use bleed as an argument but I find it hard to imagine deino wont be taking some utahs down with it unless these are all peak player utahs

[thin mantle]

That's fine...wouldn't buff bite tho...even for lower dps...your maximum dps raises dramatically opening with a 2k+ bite

[thin mantle]

You don't need to worry about it's HP when you can fundamentally deny it from doing any action it came to perform

Pounce cancels any attempt to eat or steal your body

The main reason I wouldn't buff bite is so "not lunging" doesn't become more viable btw

[keen plover]

Only for the alt tbf. They will also be better in quick fights, but with the chance to alt attack only 7 times, you'll get exhausted against numerous opponents

[thin mantle]

Idk I still think it falls into the same issues

[fresh laurel]

wouldnt deino just be able to buck each raptor and edge closer to the water as they get stamina, I mean even if it does take a bit longer

I still gotta see some gameplay on this

[fresh laurel]

I kinda dont see the point of this land change tbh

[thin mantle]

Well if they're pressuring it back to the water, they're winning

They don't have to kill it

[keen plover]

Weaker against a lot of opponents.

3 carnos would beat you

[vagrant coyote]

technically yes, but if the raptors use their brains, theyd be both biting and pouncing

[thin mantle]

Weaker in dps scenarios....weaker against smaller targets...better against larger ones

[keen plover]

This means that if a deino sees a carno pair or trio really far out, it won't want to engage them

[thin mantle]

In contrast with it in water being terrible against larger targets...better against smaller ones

[fresh laurel]

Im not sure how this would be better against larger targets which im assuming are what? stegos?

maybe the alt bite change yea

[vagrant coyote]

all unnecessary, just buff stego

[thin mantle]

If a stego is coming at you, and you start charging up a bite, you open the engagement with a 2k+ dmg bodyshot, as opposed to just spamming lmb

Also...every other large animal ever to be added to the game

[fresh laurel]

and what stops stego from using its eyes and just not running face first into a charged bite

[thin mantle]

Nothing, that's the point

It's preventative you use it to disengage

You don't use it for hunting

It's designed to prevent aggressive play

Same way teno's strongest attacks are tied to it's rear end

[fresh laurel]

if you are using deino charged bite to disengage, you turning away would leave you open still

[thin mantle]

No, you're backing up

[dusky surge]

troodon my beloved

[fresh laurel]

then ig that makes more sense

[vagrant coyote]

my lord

[fresh laurel]

herrera >>>>>> lets be real

[thin mantle]

True tho

[dusky surge]

nah

i just really like troodon

[fresh laurel]

herrera more unique, gg

[vagrant coyote]

cap

[dusky surge]

i like herrera but i REALLY like troodon

[fresh laurel]

herrera cooler as a concept cus climb, and cus I say so

[dusky surge]

"small animals are worthless" mfs when i continue to play the worthless animal because he's funny and i love him

[vagrant coyote]

wdym, he climbs trees

[fresh laurel]

magy solos

[fresh laurel]

thats more unique simply

[dusky surge]

idc who solos lol

i wanna play troodon because i like him

[fresh laurel]

im joking mate

[thin mantle]

I just find troodon lame because it's so insanely easy to make that animal overpowered...if it's not I love it

[fresh laurel]

doing the good ol tease

[thin mantle]

If it is...I hate

Granted that's how I am with all animals

[fresh laurel]

requires a lot of player slots to become a danger

[thin mantle]

Hopefully that's the case....

[vagrant coyote]

troodon is a fuzzy mini raptor with venom, superior night vision and possibly the ability to mimic sounds

[thin mantle]

Not fuzzy unfortunately

[vagrant coyote]

I AM UNINSTALLING IMMEDIATELY

[dusky surge]

i like the calls, the aesthetics, the fact that it's a lil guy, the venomous part, the group focus, the mimicry, the nocturnal habits, the animations, everything

i very much just like that man

[fresh laurel]

mimicry on its way to come out months after troodon releases

[dusky surge]

i still have everything else

just one thing off a long list of things i like

[thin mantle]

I like it's personality, but honestly I've been desensitized to an animals potential personality for a number of years

I just want the game to be fun :(

[vagrant coyote]

na, mimicry is part of troodons kit

[thin mantle]

That's always at the front of my mind

[fresh laurel]

troodon cool and all but herrera climb

[vagrant coyote]

sounds like delete carno to me

[thin mantle]

Like if we get a troodon that's U5 omni levels of busted I'm detonating uganda

[fresh laurel]

herrera get basking pls like iguanas, I beg

lay in trees, enjoy le sun, drop down and stuff

[dusky surge]

i like herrera a lot

but troodon is just really cool to me

the 4 call is my fave isle call ever

[vagrant coyote]

i want them to be danger chickens during the day and the scariest thing possible at night

that is my dream

[fresh laurel]

herrera ability to open the possibility of new terrane options for a land dinosaur is why I love it

plus, it herrera

[thin mantle]

Still should be dilo

[vagrant coyote]

YES

[thin mantle]

Troodon is too small to be justifiably scary outside of MASSIVE numbers

Hitting the damn thing is gonna be a struggle when you can barely see it

[fresh laurel]

troodon packs on their way to annoy the hell out of dilo packs at night

[thin mantle]

Which if not balanced properly will be incredibly unfun

[vagrant coyote]

exactly

[dusky surge]

thats what i love about them too

[fresh laurel]

me when trampling gets added
I solo now

[dusky surge]

imagine it being dark and seeing a troodon enter your NV then scuttle away. Then another comes in. Then another. And another. And oh god thats way too many

[fresh laurel]

I still think utah may be troodon worst matchup ngl

[dusky surge]

it should be

omni needs ONE animal that it's supposed to have a positive matchup against

[vagrant coyote]

honestly, im just gonna go carno hunting with the boys at night because i loath their existance

[fresh laurel]

utah has great mobility of its own, and soon trampling them, will still one shot them, etc

[thin mantle]

Same tho..just hope that's actually how they get added

[vagrant coyote]

fax

[thin mantle]

That's probably the second worst target in the current roster you could choose outside of the apexes rn

[keen plover]

Don't think troodon will do too well against carno

[dusky surge]

dryo and hypsi dont count because those two literally are not done

[thin mantle]

Nor do they exist

[dusky surge]

yea troodon getting swamped by carnos

[keen plover]

iirc, filipe said it would be a bad matchup

[vagrant coyote]

And im going to do it anyway

[fresh laurel]

omni would probably beat most things its size with one good pounce that isnt pachy, right?

[dusky surge]

because they aren't done

[thin mantle]

Well...exactly

[thin mantle]

Carno, in any direction, presses rmb

[vagrant coyote]

just bite and run away

if he cant stam, he cant rmb

[thin mantle]

I still think without question that omni will be faster than troodon

So I don't think that's gonna work

[vagrant coyote]

of course

however, it should have like double the manueverability

[fresh laurel]

I think it would be nice to see utah stab troodons with its sickle claw

like pinning them and boom, troodon stuck to the sickle claw

maybe troodon too big for it but it would be funny

[vagrant coyote]

theyre not that small-

[fresh laurel]

do we have a size comparison of those 2 together?

[vagrant coyote]

what do you guys think troodon is gonna be hunting?

[fresh laurel]

like directly

[fresh laurel]

things slower in attack speed and agility probably

[vagrant coyote]

i think troodon is about 3/4 the size of omni

[thin mantle]

Probably not, if it did it'd simply turn instantly, all of it's movements would by a dryo dodge tier movement

That's....bad

[keen plover]

The thing is. Is troodon agile enough to even avoid the charge

[fresh laurel]

that doesnt sound right

[thin mantle]

Hehe....nooooo

[fresh laurel]

lol

[thin mantle]

It's like...1/8th to 1/6th

[fresh laurel]

do we have troodon scaled next to utah?

[thin mantle]

gimme a sec

[fresh laurel]

I remember seeing a image of utah bending over looking at troodon and chompy

[vagrant coyote]

(Chuckles) Your not from around here, are you?

[thin mantle]

Troodon is the green one

[fresh laurel]

sad sickle claw wont apply to troodon
but maybe this man can-

[thin mantle]

I'm so sad troodon has a sickle claw

[fresh laurel]

I require more gorey kills man

[thin mantle]

I want pounce mechanics far away from this poor creature

But nah....troodon needs to teleport

[vagrant coyote]

he doesnt really use it tho

[keen plover]

It does

[thin mantle]

He does

[keen plover]

It has a pounce to apply venom

[vagrant coyote]

im aware

[thin mantle]

Troodon pounces...that's why I don't fancy him having godly agility

Because pouncing any animals face or ass teleports you to their flank already

[vagrant coyote]

?

[thin mantle]

Which you then dismount from in a completely different direction

[thin mantle]

You can pounce an animal from any angle with the same results

[vagrant coyote]

Honestly, id be fine with all that if it played an animating of the dinosaur pouncing quickly crawling from the face to the side

[vagrant coyote]

yup

[thin mantle]

It's so bad

Nah pouncing should just be locational

[vagrant coyote]

that too

[thin mantle]

I don't fancy omni being able to pounce directly into a tenos tail and get value from that

Same with a carnos face, a stegos tail...etc

[vagrant coyote]

i also wish theyd fix it so the thing your on cant hit you while your on it

[thin mantle]

That is annoying, tho I definitely think some animals just shouldn't be pounceable for that reason

[vagrant coyote]

stegos tail hitbox it so thiccc that he can not only wipe you off his side, but hell have to wipe you off the floor too

[thin mantle]

None bug related ofc

Like bary, or kentro

[vagrant coyote]

its the worst

[thin mantle]

Haven't experienced that personally since U4...definitely an issue with latency because stego's tail hitbox is scarily good

It's so precise to the model....it's glorious

[dusky surge]

anky should be pouncable, but in the sense that it can watch the troodon pathetically claw at it and continue walking becaues it doesn't matter

[vagrant coyote]

y..your messing with me, right?

[dusky surge]

he isnt, its a fact

[thin mantle]

Not a bit

[dusky surge]

stego's tail hitbox is one of the best made in the game

[thin mantle]

Stego has a super good hitbox compared to most

Test it in an admin server if you don't believe me

Latency plagues this game

Badly

[vagrant coyote]

i actually cant tell if your kidding or not, please stop