balance-feedback-discussion

[hasty coyote]

yes, that is the point. Hunt small things solo, group up to kill big things. Its like the entire gimmick of troodon

[dusky surge]

if you need multiple group members to be viable offensively, that's a LOT better than needing multiple group members to be viable defensively. Every animal should be capable of surviving on their own against any threat, albeit through unique methods of survival (escape/combat/other)

[hollow topaz]

I mean just in all fairness, raptor can hardly outrun a carno right now. They just kinda.. die unless they’re lucky. That’s mostly a hit box thing though I will admit.

But I do see your point, I guess it would be the same thing with Teno and Carno.. can’t get away, so you have to fight it. But I’m just confused about what plans they would have if Stego isn’t considered an Apex, but trike is, and it can still.. fight apexes?

[dusky surge]

thats more of a result of carno's absurd hitbox, but having that kind of engagement for stego as an INTENTIONAL part of the matchup would not be fun

Stego is considered an apex as far as I recall

IDK where this comes from

[hollow topaz]

I thought I read it from one of the devs, I’m trying to find it

Ah this is what I was referencing

Take it with a grain of salt obviously but it was the absolute-ness that had me thinking it.

[unkempt sierra]

idk, steggo can roll, pachy, carno, utah, teno, and even deino

its not really a challenge for steggos to kill pachys or omni, or carnos,

but idk alot of carnos can overwhelm a steggo but it takes a lot

[hollow topaz]

Well I think that’s where a lot of concern is coming from with balancing.. The devblog implied there are no apexes yet, so if there’s dinosaurs coming that ARE apexes, assuming Deino and Stego are not among them, how exactly it’s going to go.

Hence why they’re going to unofficial first, so they can be tested and whatnot

[unkempt sierra]

i dont mind if certain match ups are greatly in favor of another dino, it just that if its 2 big predators in a 1v1 one should not have a massive advantage over another which makes it essentially a death sentence if you engage you know

[dusky surge]

yea, but if those matchups are LITERALLY a life or death situation, and you can't ever win, the entire animal sucks

look at teno atm. Decently balanced animal, good strengths, never played because carno and ESPECIALLY pachy have become insanely good at countering it

[hollow topaz]

I see tenos all the time tbh, but yeah I understand

[unkempt sierra]

ya true

[dusky surge]

compared to prior updates, tenos have MASSIVELY reduced in numbers

[unkempt sierra]

idk, if more hp and less damage, or more damage and less hp would be good for steggo,

because right now they have both

insane damage and high health pools

[dusky surge]

I mean, stego is quite undersized in the Isle

IRL, it's around 8 tons, whereas in The Isle, they're 6

[hollow topaz]

Is a weight buff feasible?

[dusky surge]

I don't really see why not

[unkempt sierra]

buffing the hp but nerfing the damage would be a good thing i think then

[dusky surge]

dont nerf the damage

why would you nerf the damage

the whole point of the stego is to have very powerful defensive attacks

[unkempt sierra]

so that steggos cant just run around and kill anything that moves,

[dusky surge]

they really can't do that at the moment anyways

[unkempt sierra]

but buffing the health would also be very threatening

[dusky surge]

they're far too slow

everything has a method of easily escaping them

[unkempt sierra]

buff both health and speed?

and turn radius?

[dusky surge]

why?

i dont see why you'd need to do that

[unkempt sierra]

to compensate for a damage nerf

[dusky surge]

or, don't nerf the damage

unless you nerf the damage by a MASSIVE margin, stego will still easily oneshot omnis, pachies and so on

[hollow topaz]

They already can’t kill you if you just.. walk away

[dusky surge]

exactly, it's so easy to avoid them

[unkempt sierra]

ya but then they are just an apex

predator

[dusky surge]

also, if you don't want it running around killing everything, why buff the SPEED

[hollow topaz]

I’ve seen someone refer to them as a pseudo apex

[dusky surge]

pseudo-apex is a silly term and I hate it

[hollow topaz]

XD

[unkempt sierra]

the speed and turn radius boost would have to be such that it wont be too fast or too slow, it would have to be some where in between

[keen plover]

Wait, why would it need those?

[unkempt sierra]

if you nerfed the damage

[dusky surge]

because he wants to nerf the damage yet compensate in every other concievable way

idk why hes so fixated on the damage being nerfed

[unkempt sierra]

its cuz steggo has high health pool and high damage

[dusky surge]

yea, that's the idea

[keen plover]

You do realise that buffing speed and turn radius means that nothing else except for rex and giga will be able to kill it?

[hollow topaz]

Because it’s going to need it when other dinos come out

(Not the buff)

[dusky surge]

i literally don't see why stego needs to be fast

absolutely nothing about stego implies a fast animal

[unkempt sierra]

i mean, already nothing other than deino can kill a steggo, carnos can but you have to overwhelm them

[keen plover]

It doesn't even help it against rex, since rex will trot you down. You're a plains animal.

Also its tracking

You're not avoiding rex as a stego

[dusky surge]

carnos are small game hunters, it's no wonder they can't kill stegos

[hollow topaz]

Everyone has issue with stego right now because there’s no good counter other than walking away, but if we nerf it now it’s dead meat when anything else comes out.

[dusky surge]

its already dead meat if it isnt addressed for the rex matchup

[keen plover]

Yeah ^

Current stego is going to die to rex

Speed and turn radius change won't help it

It needs size + a new attack.

[dusky surge]

it's already getting a new attack

[hollow topaz]

I’m just still confused what’s supposed to make it NOT an apex

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont know why the devs are so hesitant to call it an apex, despite the fact it is clearly designed to be an apex

[hollow topaz]

Yeah that’s all I’m unsure about

[dusky surge]

it's an apex

idk what all this avoidance is about

[keen plover]

Yeah

I don't like the premise of it being 'not on the same level' as Rex.

[dusky surge]

to me that's codeword for fodder

[keen plover]

Which makes me think that rex and trike might be a bit busted

Cause if Stego isn't around your level, then yeah... I don't want to know what those 2 can do

[dusky surge]

if you get upset by people saying magy is going to be a useless animal, then go out of your way to make stego a useless animal, i really wouldn't be surprised if magy DID get fodderised by any carni that sees it

its just entirely bizarre to me

[keen plover]

I'm questioning if the 'stegos days are numbered' quote was for Rex

[dusky surge]

what point is being proven by turning stego to mince meat

besides "you shouldn't play stego, ever, even if you like it, because this other animal is bigger, better and will always win"

because that seems like a really backwards point to be making if you want people to make an ecosystem

[keen plover]

Yeah. Stego should be more threatened by mid tier packs and Omni. (Maybe dilo). It shouldn't be dying to solo anything unless its a rex or giga that got an ambush, which I guess gives them a solid chance to kill it.

[dusky surge]

honestly, stego being threatened by omni really doesn't make much sense to me

it's like, the single apex-sized animal that quite literally has the best flank protection in the game

[keen plover]

Yeah I get it. Although Omni can technically butcher it if they do coordinate a 4 pounce in quick succession.

Other than that, I think alberto & allo packs + acro pairs should be the things going after it

[dusky surge]

thats the most interesting option imho

i'd really prefer stego have actually unique matchups rather than being melted by rex

[keen plover]

Yeah, anything else and it's kind of goofy.

[unkempt sierra]

but the other match ups tho...

[hollow topaz]

Which other match ups

[keen plover]

Yeah

[unkempt sierra]

steggo vs carno, teno, omni

[hollow topaz]

Carno was never intended to hunt large prey

[dusky surge]

teno vs stego is just kinda silly

[hollow topaz]

Teno is an herbi and shouldn’t theoretically be hunting Stego, but even still, I’ve definitely seen tenos destroy stegs

[keen plover]

(I think it should be able to in a trio)

[hollow topaz]

Idk what you want from Omni, if you nerf steg so it can’t one shot it.. uh.. it’s kinda pointless

[dusky surge]

yea lmao

[keen plover]

But viable and fun

[dusky surge]

ehhh

i wouldnt call it fun lol

[keen plover]

I love it personally.

[hollow topaz]

Carno can hunt stegs in a trio if they’re VERY VERY GOOD

[dusky surge]

i'd call the current omni vs teno matchup the most fun in the game rn

i'd call literally any matchup involving current pachy and carno a complete borefest

[keen plover]

Eh, the required amount of bites - 18 headshots - means you're not really going to have a chance. As well as carnos turning / drift now.

[hollow topaz]

You’re probably looking at bleed for them as well tbh, I know it’s harder but

I haven’t fought a carno as a steg with the recent update though so I’m unsure (at least none that just.. rammed into me stupidly), only in the previous one

[keen plover]

The last time Carno had a chance against stego was when it had a 350n bite and even then, it was tough

[hollow topaz]

Even still though I don’t think they were designed to match up at all

And I don’t see why a carno would want to, considering diet. Sure the organs matter now, but you can get the same thing from any other better match up

[keen plover]

I guess. I just wish that it was mechanically possible

[tranquil pawn]

@primal hawk that mechanic would be insanely abused, it would literally give mixpackers more power because they would kill every single living thing not in their pack anyways, this mechanic if added would not only do nothing against them but actually encourage mixpacking

[fresh laurel]

how to make magy viable
you get debuffs and some other stuff for even biting it cus uh bad flesh

magy should be best body guarding herbie that all carnis hate tbh

if it dies on a prey you just killed? F for you

hell, give magy a suicide option

[ashen frigate]

It's pretty hard, even if you're good

The main issue that makes it hard is the carnos gradual run

As it's easier for the stego to know that you're running at it

[fast tusk]

@primal hawk see the issue with that is it will make mixpackers stronger if anything by giving them more damage and also, thats basically impossible to implement as someone who is just hunting a diff dino over a long period of time will just likely starve which is pretty stupid, dont expect mixpacking to ever be fixed on offcials man if you want that you have to go to a server with rules where they are moderated

[old hull]

not even that hard to think of ways to stop mixpacking , you just weaponize the now removed megapack stink to give people more and more debuffs the more they insist on doing it

that and make it so the megapack scent is always visible even when not sniffing in someway , so if there is any sort of that nonsence happening its impossible for a regular player to not see them

and to prevent such a thing from hurting regular players is simple , just make it so if you actually attack the other dinosaur in the area the debuffs no longer apply

[slim dragon]

Still ruins the concept of stalking and ambushing

[old hull]

well its an idea , if they were to impliment such a thing just tweak it until it doesnt ruin ambushes

something needs to be done about and soon because anyone who actually finds this game looking for a fun challenging survival experience will quickly realize that there is no such thing currently , its just a bunch of kids running around and foaming at the mouth because theres dinosaurs on the screen

[fading igloo]

still less mixpacking than a certain other game

But maybe increased hunger decay and thirst decay if you stay in a megapack situation or mixpack for too long to the point it doesnt become viable

[hollow canyon]

@gaunt jasper Do you use the fast get-up by any chance?

Because the normal one is quite slow on all the animals

[gaunt jasper]

No i dont because the stamina on dryo is horrible. A PACHY out-stamed me and killed me like 15 minutes ago

[gaunt jasper]

.

[hollow canyon]

I mean if the choice is between getting charged by a Carno and losing stamina for a fast get up, I'd argue you should do the latter

Nevertheless - I agree that Dryo's stamina is absolutely pathetic

it has only 15 seconds of runtime over Pachy

and Utah

I personally think all the runtimes of all creatures should be doubled

but Dryo specifically should be tripled in that case

It's pretty much the main issue with Dryo right now, it simply has too little stamina

[hasty coyote]

I feel like that could end poorly for dinos with short run times, imagine having to dodge a carno for 2 minutes straight without being hit once as a dryo

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that'd be hard to do with Dryo at all

[thin mantle]

At least not if you're already near obstacles

[hasty coyote]

2 minutes is quite a long time, plus this isnt just dryo, its everything about that size. Omni would have to juke it for about a minute without being hit by a single charge.
Actually come to think of it, this is a hard nerf to omni and other endurance hunters. That means they have to spend 2x as long wearing down their target to get the kill, and they can easily be ganked or 3rd partied

[hollow canyon]

nah, they don't

because this is an increase in their runtimes

not stamina pools

sorry if I didn't make it clear there

meaning that bucking eats your stamina at the same speed as now

runtime and stamina are two different things basically

[hasty coyote]

even then, it still makes endurance hunts worse because they dont lose as much stam while sprinting

[humble heart]

@flint inlet Dude you can literally pounce a stego <30%(Cant confirm bigger but I presume since the smaller range of swing until somewhere around 40/50%) to death. As long as you arent walking up to it and saying "Pls club my head" your fine lol

[hollow canyon]

I disagree, you also have a longer runtime as Utah if you have to disengage

rn if you get bucked as Utah you're pretty much dead

[hasty coyote]

plus the issue with one of carno's main weaknesses being removed: its poor stam time

[hollow canyon]

increased runtimes give you more room for error

every animal has a poor stam time

[humble heart]

Fr gotta pounce and leap before the buck interval, two buck intervals and your out of stam and dead

[hollow canyon]

in this case Carno gets the smallest buff compared to everything else

since its base pool is smaller than that of anything else

Utah effectively has 90 seconds more runtime rather than 45 seconds more than Carno

btw I'm out now, I'm busy rn will possibly respond later

[hasty coyote]

Most dinos have a pretty good stam time currently imo, 100 seconds is enough time to get out of most situations whithout any chases taking like 4 years and ambushes being worthwhile but not the only option.

However, carno's having buffed run time is insane compared to anything else. Currently, you have to bait out a carno for a minute, then you have enough stam to easily escape, so how much more stam the prey has doesn't really matter. However, doubling carno's stam means it has 2x more time to hunt, while the prey don't really gain much since they were able to escape after the carno was out already.

This change literally buffs carno's every matchup, and is almost a nerf to dinos who use abilities to attack. Since they still have the same amount of abilities to use, while whatever they are fighting now has more stam to juke them or run them down.

[primal hawk]

Yes but you'll also get the buff while fighting them, it's just a reason to justify the extra food drain

[fast tusk]

that is very easy to just bite each other whenever is needed to get rid of it?

[fast tusk]

there is a lot of issues with your suggestion, tbh i cant be arsed to argue with you about them just please look at the reactions to your suggestion it paints a pretty clear picture, not trying to be rude here.

[hollow canyon]

No because Carno's charge's cost isn't dependent on running, it's a whole different thing that would still drain the same percentage of stamina. Worst case scenario that cost could also be increased.(which I argued for regardless of any stamina buffs, I believe this ability should probably get a start-up cost)

[keen plover]

Combat is literally changing (or at least the a bit of it). Dondi even stated that. So even when a creature may be out of stamina, they can still attack

[dusky surge]

@cosmic geyser there was plenty reason lol, omni was entirely broken and dominant and carno just got turned to fodder by it

[golden coral]

@cosmic geyserCarno did not so much need a buff as a "rework" which is kind of what it's gotten, though it's obviously overtuned as of right now due to how it worked before. Omni didn't get much of a nerf, and it's still plenty lethal if you play it right (also the whole "can no longer buck when out of stam" change that happened is helpful). In any case, just going back would be all around terrible.

[cosmic geyser]

are you two demented? What the game was previously was way more balanced. Also if you didnt notice, omni's agility has gotten worse than pachy's. Also bucking burns its stamina now like crazy. And carno? Overtuned? More like completely overpowered @golden coral @dusky surge

omni is literally unplayable rn

[dusky surge]

omni is actually extremely well balanced. The issue arises when you realise that pachy and carno are COMPLETELY busted atm, entirely invalidating the good of its changes

In the teno v omni matchup, it's an extremely balanced and fun encounter if both sides are skilled

But carnos and pachies are so dominant that they simply invalidate everything an omni can do

[golden coral]

First off, don't be rude, there's no need. Second, the previous update was not better, I'd even argue niche/gameplay wise it was worse off. And yes, carno is overtuned. Omni is however fine, it's far from unplayable. That's just a fact. Even dryo is playable, and it is worse off than omni as it were. Even teno, suffers more than omni, both vs pachy and carno, and it's also playable.

[dusky surge]

Yep

[golden coral]

Pachy has issues with what it's CC allows it to do, but those issues were there in the last update too. And carno needs adjustment to hitbox on charge, as well as some changes on it's charge CC, some start up cost, and possibly some more fine tuning.

[dusky surge]

Poor teno, not even nerfed yet still absolutely dumpstered because of the changes to its two worst matchups

[azure crescent]

Teno was always pretty bad against pachy if I recall correctly

[dusky surge]

always, yea

but the newer changes simply enable pachy to do more bullying

pachy has always been OP

[golden coral]

More reliable hitbox, but if it had the same CC then prior patch was no different as long as the pachy could still aim. Could still just "stunlock" teno or carno. Just lands the stuns easier.

[dusky surge]

I hate pachy's CC against teno/carno so much

[cosmic geyser]

well if you didnt quite notice, only really omni is underpowered currently

[dusky surge]

not really, no

[cosmic geyser]

wont it be easier to buff one character instead of nerfing a few of them???

[dusky surge]

the issue is carno and pachy are completely overpowered, deino is entirely unviable as a prey item (for omni), no one is playing hypsi/dryo and teno doesn't exist due to the prior issue with carno and pachy

[cosmic geyser]

deino underpowered??????

prey item for omni????????????

[dusky surge]

what

[cosmic geyser]

ah k

[dusky surge]

i said the opposite

[cosmic geyser]

unviable as prey item

[dusky surge]

it's an unviable choice of a prey item

[cosmic geyser]

speak english please

well, all we need is buffing raptor and nerfing deino

[dusky surge]

understand it first

[kindred bridge]

Deino it's now the apex so kill 1 it's no easy

[cosmic geyser]

possibly tuning the small ones

[dusky surge]

not true

pachy and carno NEED addressing more than anything

[cosmic geyser]

who am i even talking to at this point smh

[dusky surge]

you cannot tell me in good faith that the fact that a carno has the hitbox of a colossal truck is exactly fair

or the fact that a pachy can easily kill a teno on its lonesome without the teno even able to counterattack is fair

hell, pachies turn even the overpowered carno into a limping joke

[cosmic geyser]

i mean if carno just head on charges the pachy then yea

[dusky surge]

thats literally what carnos are designed to do tho, head on charge

[cosmic geyser]

look, your balancing idea is better but too detailed and accurate. Mine's a little more simplistic. Do you really expect our devs to do balancing as complex as your idea? then you've overestimated them

[dusky surge]

lmao, the old "devs bad" argument. They've done far more complex changes than what I've suggested in the past

i can't take the idea of "devs can't do complexity" seriously when they have literally hundreds of unique animations per dinosaur

[golden coral]

Omni is not underpowered . There's no reason to think that, omni is fine. It's perfectly viable and plenty lethal in packs. Pachy has some issues, carno some more, and those can be fixed with some tuning.

[golden coral]

I feel like this is similar to the stam drain on bucking. It worked when the respective mechanic was more or less useless, not so much when it's a useful mechanic :p

[dusky surge]

i'd argue pachy is the most problematic one, but the easiest to fix. Carno is more complicated a fix, but not as bad as pachy. Still bad though

[golden coral]

Well, the prior patch had its own issues, so going back there only leads to bad carno charge, useless bucking, overpowered omni, still overpowered CC for pachy, and so on.

[cosmic geyser]

we're back to point A, this game's balancing is ruining it

[dusky surge]

also i don't want to lose the actually interesting omni buff that U6 gave us

[golden coral]

Also not sure what's so complex about adjusting a hitbox, they did after all fix carno bitebox. As for CC, guess that might be more tricky, but pachy still needs that fix and if they can do that, they can apply it to carno as well. Otherwise nerfing carno charge damage might be an alternative. And there's no reason to think adding a startup cost to charge would be complex either, since other mechanics have it.

[cosmic geyser]

what buff

[golden coral]

Can't buck when out of stam.

[dusky surge]

you cannot buck while out of stamina anymore. It basically makes hunts really cool, baiting your prey into exhausting itself, then tearing it to shreds

[golden coral]

The moment the target is out of stam, it just dies to the omnis.

[dusky surge]

it's massively fun

[cosmic geyser]

yeah but you forgot that bucking burns stam quick af now

so unless prey is low on stam, bucking is kinda busted

[golden coral]

Tap pouncing works just fine. Multiple omnis on the target also makes bucking cost more.

[dusky surge]

your goal as an omni is to play as almost a herder, nipping at the prey to get it to react and waste stam, then attacking

pouncing forces them to buck, meaning they cancel out of other animations, and drain stam faster

[golden coral]

The biggest issue with bucking drain isn't the drain itself, but how it goes in chunks. Which is an issue similar to carno hitbox, it worked before because bucking was useless, now that bucking is useful, there's an issue with the chunk drain.

[dusky surge]

and the MOMENT they're out, the low stam + the bleed = death

since less blood = less stam regen

it's the most interesting hunting style omni has ever gotten

it honestly makes it better against stegos tbh, since the stegos have such a small stam pool and terrible stam regen

[humble heart]

If it wasnt for the terrible hitboxes(And yes we have legacy hitboxes basically) stego vs utah would be very fun.

[dusky surge]

on top of the stam regen nerf given via bleed, you can basically shred stegos in a coordinated pack

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeRumor has it a full four slot pounce costs about 25% stamina for the stego to buck. But then you also need a coordinated pack that can get those pounces at the same time in.

[humble heart]

Last few times ive done stego vs utah as utah I have died either after I pounced and am on the stego or as I am running away after the pounce and am far off

[dusky surge]

ironically, stego is one of the more balanced on the roster right now, despite the complaints

[golden coral]

It's not the hitbox. That's just lag/ping.

[humble heart]

Good point

[dusky surge]

i'd argue deino, carno and pachy are all more viable than stego

the hitbox on stego is actually RIDICULOUSLY tight

like, insanely accurate to the attack

the lag does not help, however

[golden coral]

At least as far as I know, when testing has been done, stego hitbox is just fine. So in most cases it's a matter of ping and similar making you think x while the stego sees y.

[humble heart]

The hibxow on carno charge tho 😭
Poor tenos

[dusky surge]

oh yea, tenos got screwed this patch

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, the charge hitbox is way off, but this has also been proven in tests.

[dusky surge]

and they didn't get a single nerf, all that happened was carno and pachy getting buffed

[humble heart]

It happens all the time, not just to me. Its very odd. It kind of ruins great fights between stegs

[humble heart]

Yeah, teno and utah are in the same spot kinda

Tho utah did get adjustments

[dusky surge]

both balanced, but overshadowed by far stronger creatures

[humble heart]

Yup

[golden coral]

And teno vs omni is apparently a pretty good fight. So that speaks well for omni honestly since teno is solid.

[humble heart]

It is the only balanced fight IMO

[dusky surge]

true

[golden coral]

It could be a matter of you being hit in pounce jump, but only registering as the anim finishes?

[humble heart]

They didnt even swing till I was on. Since we had someone else distracting and baiting

My ping wasnt too bad at the time, nor did I have any lag. Thats king of why I assumed it was hitboxes or some combat bug

It made no sense

[golden coral]

Maybe it looked differently to the stego. Hard to say in those cases. Also hard to say since we don't know the stego ping in question.

[humble heart]

Yeah

[golden coral]

Could be some issue, or just that people might not always count the hitbox properly, because I know that the stego can hit "below" the tail visually for example, so it can hit things nibbling the ankles and all that. So could possibly be something like that.

[hollow canyon]

Update5 was just as trash as the current update(in a way much worse), they are not reverting the balance to that garbage so giving feedbacks like that is just pointless.

The current one just requires one to two fixes to Carno and a bit of small changes to Pachy.

[thin mantle]

@random tusk
I agree generally…
Ram should be far more utility based, less of a damage tool and more of a positioning tool, both for yourself and for the prey..stunning smaller targets into a combo using bites to kill them…
I also think charge should be toned back in its stun range, I like how mobile charge is now because it makes charge useful for what it’s designed for, and for what Carno is designed to hunt…but ironically that renders it MORE effective against the targets it’s not meant to excel against than the ones it is, like teno…charge erases teno rn…
This will get even worse in the future as animals like bary, Cerato, Magy, dibble, kentro, etc are added…so I think the best thing to do would be to:
A: Reduce Carno’s charge damage down to say…200-250 just to give a basic idea.
B: Reduce its stun range down to 1000 kilos, so the pseudo mids aren’t fodderized by charge despite it keeping just as much strength against those smaller targets it’s meant to hunt.
C: Hitbox fix (obviously)
D: Startup stamina cost, it’s the only ability in the game that lacks one, and the reason why other abilities DO have them is to prevent spam, which charge is more than capable of doing rn, which also dramatically lowers carnos skill ceiling….nothing massive, like 8-10%.

Pachy needs a similar fix with its ability to stun…for one…body fractures may need a nerf, 3x the stamina cost is insane, if a Pachy lands a body fracture on a teno (which is comically easy to do) it only has 4 attacks left from maximum stam before it basically just dies…

Pachy shouldn’t be capable of stunning with ram up to a certain size threshold without applying a fracture…meaning it would have a maximum of 3 stuns on any given target before it absolutely has to disengage…
Hit reg/priority/hitboxes should probably also get a bit of a touch up so you can’t ram straight through a tail slam… or really any other attack aside from pounce or charge.

As compensation to ensure it stays a combat god against Omni, I think it’s stationary vertical coconut cracking ram should get a substantial damage buff

Make it an actual finisher like the concept art

[hasty coyote]

Honestly even with those changes, it won’t impact the Omni matchup. And it has a really easy time bullying omnis atm because the new hit registration makes your rams actually land reliably. So buffing headslam atm is a bit unnecessary.

Also, an idea for body fracture would be to make abilities cost only 2x stam, but running cost 3x stam. That way defending playables have more chance to defend, but pursuing predators still are harmed drastically. Especially since you’re forcing pachy to basically get 1 fracture and get out, and body fracture is incredibly common, so body fracture still needs to be useful enough to escape.

[silk harness]

Anyone know the limit for what Teno can knockdown with tailslam/kick? I assume its just anything below 1600kg but it kinda feels more like < ~1400kg. Just speaking from experience fighting smaller carnos.

[thin mantle]

Well, it shouldn’t, that matchup is fine

It doesn’t have to get buffed now but I’d definitely recommend looking into it later down the line as the roster expands

[thin mantle]

The thing I dislike about this is that something like a Carno only has around 15 seconds of stamina to run with after it’s been body fractured so it dies rather effortlessly in that case

Body or leg fractures rn are just gg

For basically anything able to receive them

[hasty coyote]

it mainly dies so easily because pachy has its stuns, without those stuns carno woulds still be a big threat, even with a body fracture. A single charge and that pachy is likely done for. Unlike the other 2 fractures, it doesnt have such an immediate effect to end the fight right there and then. Leg fracture means the carno can't chase, and head fractures means the carno does much less damage and is likely to panic and run because of low visibility. Body fracture may stop the carno after 15 seconds, but that is a full 15 seconds that carno can still easily kill a pachy. Even then, the carno can still just walk down the pachy if its bleeding, since its so easy to track.

[thin mantle]

Well then we need to find a specific fix for Carno, because that degree of power in body fractures cripples (no pun intended) a plethora of existing and future matchups with it

[hasty coyote]

the only creature I can think of that uses fractures and carno fights would be pachy. Pachyrhino is like over 3x its size, and if a carno goes near an anky...
Even if they give other dinos fractures, by then we will likely have fracture severity (i hope) so it won't be nearly as impactful.

[thin mantle]

Well like I said, we can keep Carnos 3x…my main concern is the other matchups

Just give Carno a unique weakness if it’s absolutely necessary

[tall bronze]

I still like the idea of cancelling the charge being a little more "difficult". You're 1.8 tons moving at high speed, it's gonna take a bit more effort to slow down!

So perhaps maybe there's like a grace period when you cancel charge where it still has effect?

For example; you go to charge full speed into a Dryo, it dodges, you try to stop and avoid that rock behind it, your momentum doesn't go away fast enough and you smack into it

Which this would technically be both a pro and con. If charge lingered after cancelling, you could still hit something while you're still slowing down, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective since the Carno is trying to stop rather than using it's horns to ram a target.

Could even have the speed determine how punishing the miss of a charge is. It'd be weird to slow down a lot but still have JUUUUST enough momentum to have the charge still linger, so you take full damage from touching that rock.

[fresh laurel]

dryo vs utah:

[thin mantle]

It’s always been weird how easily charge gets canceled by ram

[tall bronze]

Oh yeah, I forgot we gotta differentiate ram and charge I always use them interchangeably

I also do very much like the idea of Carno's charge using a bit of stam when activating. Makes sense, too.

So maybe that combined with the risk of smacking into stuff could help it be less spammy

Plains will usually be empty, but perhaps you find a boulder to bait it into

[hasty coyote]

honestly gateway will completely shift the balance, the biome variety adds a lot of counterplay (and highlights a lot of the verticality issues in this game).

[tall bronze]

Apparently Gateway's plains are actually plains which sounds nice. No dumb hills everywhere.

"Carno is an ambusher! Just use the hills!" Bah

[dusky surge]

with this, i just wanna point out, you said "reduce the stun range of charge down to 1000kg". I disagree with this. Knockdown range should be 900kg (half or less of a carno's weight, scaling as it grows), stun range should be 1800 (equal or less of a carno's weight)

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover Omni doesn't need a buff, but carno 100% needs a nerf

Also omniraptor has a really enjoyable fight/hunt against tenontos, given it's in a pack and has some semblance of skill

[tall bronze]

I'm scared they're gonna buff it and make it U5 raptor again

was it U5 that it was a god

[thin mantle]

Yes

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

And that would be awful

[tall bronze]

I wouldn't be as nervous about it if the devs did the usual more frequent yet smaller balance patches instead of "Oops, this major update has some balance issues. See ya in 6 months!"

[dusky surge]

i just find the devs are too receptive to community outcry, ironically

they respond heavily to anything the community says (besides stego, which I'm grateful for, because that animal needs to be where it is to stop deino)

with U6, the balance changes felt better than U5, which was a panic response to a great deal of community outcry

[tall bronze]

Stego and Deino's mere existence angers me. I'd much rather them be replaced later on than keep them in watered down to compensate for the current roster ;/

[dusky surge]

U6 had actual bold new changes taking the animals in the directions they should've been going from the start

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm.

I just feel it'd be a lot easier if they adjusted things over a shorter time frame instead of BIG changes after months and months <:/

Because since they tend to go a wee bit too far with changes, that means it takes months to get changes for em. And I know they need time to see how the balance changes flow and how we adapt to them, but sometimes it's just like "no no WHY was this changed, it was fine before" Dryo

[dusky surge]

Omniraptor's exhaustion hunting style, carno's charge that isn't a joke with no punchline, ptera actually turning like a real animal, dryo not being galli-lite and actually having something more unique to it, these were good changes

Issues is that
A: Pachy hasn't been brought into line yet
B: Carno still benefits from its past (the hitbox remains far too forgiving, for an era where hitting anyone was more luck than anything)
C: Dryo simply exhausts far too fast from its ability

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm. B I've seen before in games and it's always disheartening. Usually in the form of a nerf to compensate for a buff, then the buff is gone....but not the nerf. Though this is the reverse 😛

And C was actually acknowledged by Dondi

That's when he mentioned it taking a few tries for an idea to work out right and how he wants to have the dodge be charged base instead of stamina based.

Just sucks having to wait months at a time for said ideas to come into play ;/

[fresh laurel]

would be nice to uh nerf carno and pachy quickish to uh, open up teno and utah better matchups more

[dusky surge]

That is exactly what needs to be done

[fresh laurel]

yes but

probably 5 month wait

[hollow canyon]

Probably nowhere near that long

[fresh laurel]

its a joke

[azure crescent]

@alpine plover Utah doesn't need a buff, it's carno and pachy that need a nerf

Also that's a good image but literally what are the percentanges based on

Like, these percentages could be completely different if you suddenly met a group of people playing a certain dino for the hell of it

Or if the people you're chasing are way more skilled than you and always manage to escape

[obtuse ocean]

Is not carno balanced if you take away that absurd hitbox ?

[dusky surge]

its a very good step to making it balanced

[obtuse ocean]

Yea i also think so

Hope they dont make any big changes, and screw it totally up again

[dusky surge]

i dont think it should be knocking animals down if they're only a fraction smaller tho

[fathom bronze]

sr i want ask my game menu show all is question mark how did u end it

[azure crescent]

Wdym?

[dusky surge]

i think carno should only be knocking down animals 50% its size or smaller

[fathom bronze]

how to fix

[dusky surge]

#🔧-legacy-troubleshooting-🔧

ask there

[fathom bronze]

oh thanks

[azure crescent]

Agreed

[dusky surge]

it should STUN a teno, but not knock down a teno

[azure crescent]

Teno ideally should be dealt with most efficiently by a pair of carnos, where a stun is enough, rather than a knockdown

[dusky surge]

agreed

it also makes carno respect cera like the devs want it to

rather than it quite literally bulldozing the cera

[azure crescent]

Yeah

I feel like the biggest threats to a cera will be pachy and carno

For the same reasons they are threats right now

[dusky surge]

yea lol

if carno and pachy remain as-is, cera is dead

[azure crescent]

Except it prob won't even be able to run away from pachy

Meaning cera players will have to play like a weird bary where they just run into the water constantly

[dusky surge]

pretty much

[obtuse ocean]

I have no clue whos about carno vs cera lol,but they should be on some equal terms i guess

How big is cera vs carno ?

[dusky surge]

idk how to feel about them being on equal terms, but if we want them to at least be close, carno can't be spamming charge until it dies

[dusky surge]

cera is MUCH smaller than carno

[obtuse ocean]

oh darn

[dusky surge]

not that it matters how much smaller it is, if it were even a kg smaller, it'd still get bulldozed

because carno can literally knockdown anything even a fraction smaller than itself

if they do end up making cera bigger, i'll be really disappointed lol

[obtuse ocean]

I just a clip of filipe when it stood beside a stego, it looked huge lol. But that might be me, or they didnt scale it correctly. It was a while ago

But teno is alot smaller then carno, and it still puts a fight up

[dusky surge]

not really atm lol

carno charge is simply too good

[obtuse ocean]

In terms on weight that is, not sure how big teno was in reality

[dusky surge]

teno is also only a small bit lighter than carno

1600 vs 1800 isn't a massive difference

[obtuse ocean]

oww, darn, i tho it was much more. Well yea they should be on some equal terms

Wait, how big is pachy then lol

[dusky surge]

500kg, yet it can easily kill 1600kg and 1800kg animals

because pachy is absolutely ridiculous

[obtuse ocean]

I do think carno charge should be good vs smaller tiers tho

[dusky surge]

of course it should

[obtuse ocean]

darn, pachy op lol

[dusky surge]

it really is

and its absolutely abysmal to fight

completely unfun because it's so good at just stunlocking your animal to death, regardless of the insane size difference

[obtuse ocean]

Yea i didnt know it was that small, i feel much "thougher" when i play pachy atm

[thin mantle]

By stun, what sort of effect are you seeing with that?

[dusky surge]

as in, stagger

y'know, what it does to other carnos

[thin mantle]

Because a big part of the issue with teno is the attack canceling due to the hitboxes being so heavily favoring charge as an ability

So if the slam isn't persisting through that stagger it functionally remains as is

[dusky surge]

knockdown vs stagger have some vital differences that would make a stagger preferable. Knockdown is longer, and allows you to move unhindered through the space the animal occupied. Stagger would stop your forward momentum and only stagger for a short time, requiring the carno to turn away

it's also shorter

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's perfectly fine to me...tho in some cases where theres an action taken preceding the stagger, I think it should persist through said stagger, like attacks shouldn't be effected by the stagger upon triggering, but the stagger timer prevents retaliation and movement afterwards

Because if it's changed to prevent comboing...we still run into the issue of slam countering requiring FAR more precise timing than charge is to land

Which is one of the reasons that matchup feels so wrong...there's a massive disparity in the effort both parties need to put in for basic performance

[dusky surge]

taking knockdown out of the picture very much changes how the fight would go

[thin mantle]

For sure, I'm just talking about the counter potential

The slam timing only really functions if you time the slam where the carno hits at the very edge of the tails hitbox, otherwise the recurring spawn of the charge hitbox while it's active takes priority and the teno goes down

Which again, is about 10% of the length of a hitbox that only exists for a single frame for an attack that has a second of windup

And even outside the context of a 1v1, the timing being as unforgiving as it is in a 2v2 makes the death of 1 of the teno's basically guaranteed... carno's work VERY well in group fights because their attacks require little to no positioning and they can circumvent numbers by targeting, anything can do this but charge makes them VERY good at this...if one of the teno's manages to counter the charge from one of the carnos, there's no way it can do the same to the second even if their timing is a bit off

All I really want from that is for the timing to be more forgiving

[hollow canyon]

half the size of a Carno

[azure crescent]

In game cerato will not be 900 kg

Ideally not atleast

[hollow canyon]

Well I'm speaking irl

it's like 1100kg vs 2100kg

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh yea i tho it was bigger : P

[hollow canyon]

It's not "precisely" half the size but in that ballpark

[hollow canyon]

yea... for some reason everybody thinks Cerato is bigger than it really is

although to be fair legacy has always oversized it

[obtuse ocean]

So its like a big boy in the smaller tier : P

[hollow canyon]

yea

[obtuse ocean]

But according to that clip when carno eating and cera shows up, it do look like carno will have some respect for cera

[azure crescent]

@analog mirage How is pachy in a good spot?

[twilit juniper]

Yeah, thats the only reason i downvoted 💀 Everything else is good, but that pachy thing is w h a t.
It's so hard to know what emoji to react with when the same post has some negatives and also positives

[analog mirage]

I think pachy is in a good spot because a single pachy can defend against Carno and is wise to run away from hike a group can take on Carnos

Omni just needs to be able to not be bucked so easily to bleed out pachys

[winter iris]

@alpine plover I partly agree, but not completely. I used to play Utah a lot in U5.5, and it was, in all honesty, probably even easier than current carno especially if you take into account the time you needed to grow it. Having said that, I agree that carno should be reviewed but, on the other hand, I think it’s main problem atm is that ram is buggy. With this term, I also include the hitbox that is often huge (not always though, even if a good 79% of the times). I used the term buggy, because even if on one hand it is good that ram is now responsive (many times it didn’t work in the past), it seems that there are a few bugs when using it: for example rammed AI often starts flying around the map without stopping. I have the impression that the hitbox being this big could be the consequence of a “bug” or anyway not something that has really been planned.
On the Utah side, I think it would be good if its growth curve was linear (similar to what it is now for carno). Also, I might have missed something, but I did not find a huge difference in mobility as many people claimed right after U6 came out. Additionally, to me it makes perfect sense that you need 3 competent Utah players to kill a carno, particularly because in the future there will be a bunch of playables that are bigger than Utah but smaller than carno , so it’s not said that carno should be adapted to remain Utah main prey.
About tenos, it was already very difficult to kill one in U5.5, and we all know how strong Utah was in that update, so I’m not really surprised that it is difficult to kill one.
This update in the current state, allows Utah/omni to be powerful, but you need numbers (like 6-7 omnis), whilst there’s very little chance if you play solo or as a duo , even if a competent omni duo can still be dangerous.
I agree, that there’s been quite a drastic change in the game for omni and this probably didn’t give people the time to adapt. An in between U5.5&6 is maybe the right choice for omni

Tried to edit a few typos with no success 🙂

[hollow canyon]

same, just a truly bizarre take, Pachy is anything but fine

[twilit juniper]

They’re response to Duder sort of made sense, pachy is very good at defense atm, but complete genocide aswell, which is the part that isn’t okay. (I’m saying that cause of watching pachys dominate and also when playing pachy properly for the first time recently since ever since it got released, I also dominated, as a person who hasn’t played it at all until that point)

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it being able to defend itself from a Carno in a 1v1 means that it's well balanced, it's just not a good way of determining whether it's balanced because it could just bonebreak a Carno and get out without being completely broken.

Pachy's definitely overtuned

as is Carno

I'd say that the fact that Pachy handles Carno the best out of the whole roster while Carno is this overpowered is a pretty good indicator that it's also too strong

[twilit juniper]

In stricter words said, also yes ^^; I just tried to make at least a little sense from the post saying pachy is good

[hollow canyon]

Hell a Pachy can 1v1 a Carno atm

yea it's not good

definitely not, both it and Carno need nerfs

hopefully that's what they get in the next update

[twilit juniper]

Mhm, I’m mostly waiting for the balance patch, I wanna play so bad cause currently in that isle phase where you play for many hrs everyday for a long time, but it’s quite hard with those goin around 😅

[hollow canyon]

I don't really feel an urge to play Evrima at all

I kind of stopped playing some time ago

I just don't care for any of the playables enough to play the game

I need at least one thing that'd be fun to play

[twilit juniper]

Maybe I’ll eventually hit that too, and hopefully, I always come back for a few months, and then dissapear for a few, an on and off thing

[twilit juniper]

Teno golden child

[hollow canyon]

I have absurd number of hours on Evrima so yea

Teno is nice-ish but it's also not exactly what I'm looking for

I don't like it per se, it's a well designed playable but its playstyle doesn't fit me

[twilit juniper]

Understandable, mostly said it cause it’s probably the most balanced and fair playable atm XD can’t ask for too much sadly (💀 sadness)

[hollow canyon]

yea it's probably the best right now but it still isn't that fun to me

I don't like to be on the defensive

so its playstyle is really ill-fitting for me

I want something like legacy Giga

[twilit juniper]

Oh, teno can be played scarily aggressive, but I get why you think that, cause it’s made to be defensive with that tail,

[hollow canyon]

trot/tracking/bleed, short engagements with which you slowly wear down your target

[twilit juniper]

Hope you get a playstyle that fits better sooner than later then

[hollow canyon]

Teno is generally just defensive for a few reasons, it can be decent on the offense but it's honestly still quite subpar at that compared to its defense

[twilit juniper]

Assuming you like dinos that are on roids 😅 whichever one that might be

[golden coral]

The buck is fine, omni bleed is plenty lethal as it stands, it does not need to be better. Pachy on the other hand need to not be able to solo a carno, or even take on in a pair. They should need at least 3+ to present a credible threat to a solo carno.

[humble heart]

@analog mirage I agree with everything but the omni and pachy one. Omni is in a perfect spot, but its hard to see because they fall victim so easily to pachy and carnos broken mechanics. Yesterday I was a stego and met a group of 6 utahs whom I befriended. I saw them absolutely destroy a carno, and then later when their pack grew they hammered 3 adult carnos until they fled. Only 1 utah was lost during that 3 adult fight. Utah is suppose to be a pack dino, and it still works very well like that, however due to how little utahs there are nowadays, said packs cannot be formed like they used to.
And pachy is...pachy. If it cannis, or attacks a teno there is no chance for that dino. And a leg break to a carno or utah = death.

[silk harness]

Assuming it keeps this size it'll probably be like 1600kg. There's some forced perspective in this pic but if you watch the video it's from you can see more angles. Cera's legs aren't nearly as long but its torso and head are actually larger. Body length is about equal between them as well

[azure crescent]

in this clip the model wasnt scaled yet, and as you said there's some distance between the two

[silk harness]

I just can't see them scaling it to the point where its as low as 1300 or as high as 2100

Like people have been predicting

[azure crescent]

I'm fine with a 1.3-1.4 t cerato, any lower than that and there's some issue

Any higher than 1.7 same thing

[silk harness]

1.3 Cera wouldn't be a corpse bully, it would get bullied. And based on this image, the teaser, and the weight behind the animations, I doubt it will be that small

[hollow canyon]

they don't have to scale it down much for it to be 1300kg

iirc it'd have to be half a metre shorter to be 1300kg, roughly a metre shorter to be 1100kg or so

[silk harness]

Yeah, and I doubt they'll do that. It would be really weird balancing decision. I would think they'd learn from legacy Cera's weight debacle. I imagine they'll pick a decent weight and stick with it. And 1300kg is just too small to be a corpse bully for anything but small tiers

If they do make it that small, it will probably be adjusted when they see it can't preform its niche

[hollow canyon]

No it wouldn't be, they said that it's going to be most likely around the 1100kg/7m long size

Cerato IS meant to be a corpse bully to small tiers

you literally can see it running the hell away from an Allo

it's not going to be able to bully everything off corpses

it's too small for that

[silk harness]

It literally corpse bullies carnos in its own teaser without a numbers advantage. A 1.1t cera would even struggle against small tiers. That's more or less in the size range where a good omni could 1v1 it. Same will probably go for dilo.

If I could bet money it will be 1.5t+ I would

[slim dragon]

That's why it's getting a sickening bite
To be able to ward off much larger predators, without needing to have the upper hand in combat

[silk harness]

Unless they rework vomit sickness, I don't think that will be enough. As far as combat goes it would just give a brief stun when they vomit and cripple their stamina. Against anything roughly carno-sized that would basically just give 1.1t cera a brief window to run away, which isn't what its supposed to be doing

[slim dragon]

Cera isn't supposed to run away
It's supposed to make its enemies run away, because fighting it isn't worth it
After fighting a cera, you end up with reduced stamina, reduced hunger and thirst, and you lost your diet buffs

[silk harness]

Yeah I completely agree, it's supposed to be a "stand your ground" carni. I'm just saying that applying vomit sickness won't be enough to stand its ground if it only has 1.1k health and carno has 1.8k. A debuff like that wont be enough to dissuade larger predators from fighting it. The debuff has to be enough to not only be an inconvenience, but also allow cera to follow up and potentially win the fight. 1.1-1.3t cera wouldn't have the stats to win that fight, even with the debuff.

The only solution I see is to make cera closer in size to carno and bary, as well as widening the size gap between itself and omni, dilo, etc.

[slim dragon]

No, I don't think cera will need to win the fight, every interaction in The Isle shouldn't be "kill or be killed" this is a mindset that needs to go

If a carno tries to steal a meal from a cera and doesn't decide to run away despite the sickness, then yeah, the cera has to run away
But the carno will have lost more in the process than the cera did

[silk harness]

Again I completely agree, but it has proven difficult to change player's mindsets with game mechanics. People just want to pvp and win fights decisively, which means to the death. E.g. Pachy has always had the capability to fracture and then run away, but they almost always would rather stick around and finish off their target, even if it means they might die.

[slim dragon]

But there was a point where pachy's break and run was its most viable option. Pachy has fluctuated a lot between OP and useless, but I'm pretty confident that once they find it's middle ground, pachy players will fracture and run from large predators, and that those who don't do that will simply die.

[azure crescent]

Again, in the image and the teaser the model isn't even scaled yet

[silk harness]

You really don't think they'd pick at least a rough size that the end product will represent?

[hollow canyon]

no, they wouldn't, they didn't do it in the past and they didn't do it now

it was outright said it wasn't scaled yet, it's not some secret

they said that's done at the very end when the animal is being tested by the QA

Deinosuchus was only some 9-10m for the longest time and that's the size at which it was shown on trailer and all the other promotional materials until the very end when it got upsized

Carnotaurus was absurdly oversized for a good chunk of time and only ended up getting hit with the nerf-hammer in terms of its size AFTER it was already in the game

cause that thing was the size of a big Allosaurus

[fresh laurel]

isnt pachy thing supposed to be break and run

[azure crescent]

That's the thing, they didn't even pick the rough size in those images

They just imported the model and some animations

Literally 0 thought put into the size in-game at that point

[silk harness]

The meat of my argument doesn't really even rest on the model's current size vs. what it will be later. I'm calling it now, cera will END UP being well above 1.1/1.3t. Even if it isn't on release, it will be need to be upsized to be viable. Pure speculation, ik, but it seems like common sense to me. A cera that small would be useless if it was dropped rn into our current roster. Everything would bully it.

[golden coral]

Or maybe carno and pachy can get adjusted instead, and a "smaller" cera would be fine.

[hollow canyon]

Well that'd be a roster issue then

When Evrima was in the works

the devs have said that they're adding some 11 new animals

that are going to be smaller than Ceratosaurus

and which are going to be prey-options for it

all those smaller animals are either scheduled or released

[fresh laurel]

[hollow canyon]

and they are all indeed smaller than Cerato(except Magy which is probably same size or bigger)

[fresh laurel]

magy still the best body guarding herbi, lets be real

[silk harness]

Possibly. But again, I feel like small cera would be unviable if it were hypothetically dropped into Update 3, 4, or 5 with their respective balance numbers. I don't think it matters what you do to carno's stats (within reason), it would always be way bigger, faster, and stronger than "small cera".

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage pachy isn't AT ALL fine, omni is fine (just needs better visual conveyance on when it's getting bucked, rather than being allowed to play rodeo sim again). Carno's knockdown being "one ton" doesn't really work, since you haven't at all accounted for its knockdown range at different growth stages. Just make it 50% of the carno's current weight (900kg at fullgrown)

[unkempt sierra]

you should not fall 1 foot and break a leg, and loose 60% hp thats just stupid

[humble heart]

This is perfect. Literally perfect. Deino has a 1/2 weight grab for its ability, so doing the same for carno would be excellent. All in all just yes.

[unkempt sierra]

https://youtu.be/yfcBOR7GEU0

4:55 full grown raptor gets one shot by a small stego that’s no where near full growth how is that balanced?

[dusky surge]

… it’s a stego. They’re supposed to do a ton of damage. That’s their primary form of defence

[unkempt sierra]

Yes but it’s not good game balance that steg isn’t even full grown

And he oneshots a full grown raptor

[dusky surge]

Stego’s tail swipe, at full grown, does 1250 damage. A raptor has 450 health. Of course it’d one shot a raptor for a lot of its life, even while not adult

[unkempt sierra]

Ya it should not be like that that’s dumb

[dusky surge]

A stego takes 5 hours to grow, a raptor takes about 1, it makes no sense for a younger steg to just be prey for raptor

[unkempt sierra]

A full grown raptor can’t kill a small steg, but a full grown croc can?

[dusky surge]

Yes because the full grown croc is literally over 15x the size of the raptor

[bright oasis]

450 kg vs 8 ton croc

surely they are equal

[dusky surge]

They aren’t at all on the same level

The raptor has the ability to dodge and outrun the stego’s attacks, it’s entirely designed as a glass cannon pack predator

[unkempt sierra]

It should be to an extent, the fact that a small steg go can one shot a full grown raptor is stupid, because there is no combat at all, in that clip he pounced and got punished for getting the pounce off

He died in one shot and did not make a mistake

[dusky surge]

It isn’t stupid for a stego to be able to defend itself

And if you’re dying to a young stego, you probably made a mistake

[unkempt sierra]

Where did he make the mistake in that vid?

[bright oasis]

i thbink the dude jumped off on an incline, up a hill so he didnt jump off as far. that was the mistake

[unkempt sierra]

😂 ya that’s not balanced

[dusky surge]

Pounced facing a hill, didn’t aim his dismount at all, fought a clearly adult stego

IDK what you mean by that being young btw, that’s an adult. Not full grown, but adult

[bright oasis]

sometimes all it takes is a small mistake when you're in 1 shot range.

and the stego didnt look adult, look either very close to or at early sub

[unkempt sierra]

Lol you are trolling, mr trike that steg is not an adult

Not even close

[bright oasis]

but a nearly 50% stego is still able to 1 shot omni

[dusky surge]

Which is good imho

If it couldn’t, it’d be useless fodder

[unkempt sierra]

Ya the damage needs to be halved

[dusky surge]

Lmao absolutely not

Imagine completely removing an animal from any viable play

[unkempt sierra]

It’s broken, the raptor did not make a mistake and was punished for getting the pounce off

[dusky surge]

That would literally make steg trash tier

Zero viable self defence against anything above small tier, entirely useless juvi and sub stages, still slow as hell

Just remove it at that point

[bright oasis]

there are instanses where pouncing should be punishable.

the counter play is playing smarter

[unkempt sierra]

You’re talking to a stego main buddy, and I’m telling you right now, after days of running servers as a stego killing everything that moves it’s not fair in anyway, there is no threat to you, only thing that is threatening is other stegosaurus and groups of deinos

He did not make a mistake, did not miss his pounce

And was killed for it

[bright oasis]

he pounced with his dismount position facing uphill, that was the mistake

[unkempt sierra]

So, it shouldn’t be like that, you should be punished before you get the pounce off not after

If you miss then you should take big damage

[bright oasis]

omni should get an unpunishable pounce?

if you miss, the big damage is the other guy hitting you

thats already the punishment lol

[unkempt sierra]

If they get one shot by a baby steg, ya they should or nerf steg damage or at least nerf the health pool

[bright oasis]

that wasnt a baby stego thoguh

it was clearly at most early sub

[unkempt sierra]

Yes it was, it was no where near full growth

No where near full growth and it one shots a full growth raptor

[bright oasis]

yeah, its a big animal even while young

[unkempt sierra]

It should not one shot full growth raptors

[bright oasis]

can baby elephants not harm you

[unkempt sierra]

Lol not if I have a gun

[bright oasis]

LOL\

[unkempt sierra]

Or arrow

[bright oasis]

whatever, discussion over

[unkempt sierra]

Lol

[thin mantle]

I think we’re missing the fundamental truth…that if you don’t feel confident as an Omni pack hunting a stego because it has tighter timing and coordination than other targets…then don’t hunt it

It’s intended to be VERY mechanically suited to dealing with Omni specifically

It is possible to take down, just very difficult, and without distraction or convenient positioning it will likely punish both pounce attempts and dismounts…landing an ability successfully doesn’t and shouldn’t grant you assured survival when disengaging

A Pachy ramming a stego or deino is going to get rolled for example

Same with a Carno charging a stego

Omni is already being given a massive amount of leeway in having a combat mechanic that allows for sustained damage on targets WAY bigger and stronger than it

And in regards to baby stegos…don’t get hit

That’s quite possibly the easiest attack to avoid in the entire game

[unkempt sierra]

How does he avoid getting hit there in that clip?

Not being on a hill in a game where there’s hills literally everywhere?

[thin mantle]

Time the dismount towards the end lag of the last swing to avoid the next one

Or have the other Omni bait

Easy

[unkempt sierra]

Idk man, I think the game would be a lot better if Dino’s did % damage rather than flat damage,

[thin mantle]

How does that even work

Also how does that work with locational

Or large animals hitting smaller ones

[unkempt sierra]

For example, the Dino’s with the largest health pool will deal the largest % damage let’s say 10%

And smaller ones like pteradon will deal 1%

[thin dragon]

mfw the omni still takes 1250% damage from the stego:

[thin mantle]

Ok so that’ll just get balanced up to current values

Doesn’t matter what the math equation is

[unkempt sierra]

Meaning that for a steg to kill a raptor it will take 10 swings

[thin mantle]

Stegos of that size basically just die on sight if they can’t seal enough damage to kill what’s attacking them

[unkempt sierra]

And a raptor let’s say does 2%

[thin mantle]

Dear god….

I’m sorta just stunned

[unkempt sierra]

I mean dude the inflated heal pools on stegos and the inflated damage is ridiculous

[thin mantle]

How does this make sense to you?

[thin mantle]

If anything their damage and HP is actually nerfed for the roster ironically

[unkempt sierra]

Because when you go in for a pounce you shouldn’t insta die

[thin mantle]

Yes you should, if you get hit during it

If you want to live don’t attack the thing best suited at countering you

[unkempt sierra]

It’s like that for almost ever Dino you go up against, with certain exceptions,

[thin mantle]

Omni’s entire play style revolves around avoiding hits, it’s small fast and agile with lots of sprinting stam, the whole point is NOT to tank

What defines the good omnis from the bad ones is how they avoid damage

[unkempt sierra]

It’s kinda unrealistic to avoid an AoE attack from a stegosaurus tho after pounce

Even in that clip above

The dudes Dino was facing toward the steg, and the steg just clicks and kills him

[thin mantle]

Exactly….so wait for the end lag, wait for a packmate to bait, don’t pounce when the terrain doesn’t favor you, or don’t hunt stegos at all

Many many solutions to this dilemma

[unkempt sierra]

Simply not fighting it and having to solely rely on packing does not make the game fair,

[thin mantle]

Yes it does

You’re a pack animal, stego is tens of times larger than you

That is the point of Omni

[unkempt sierra]

If it was 10 v 10 10 stegos against 10 raptors the raptors will not win

No matter wat

[thin mantle]

Yes

Good, those omnis should NEVER win

[unkempt sierra]

Why

[thin mantle]

That is evidence of the game being balanced correctly

[thin mantle]

Do you honestly believe an Omni should ever be reliably capable of soloing a stego?

[thin dragon]

how much does stego weigh, please remind me

[thin mantle]

What about a deino? What about a rex? What about a trike?

[unkempt sierra]

If the raptor is good enough yes he should

[thin mantle]

6k

[thin mantle]

Should a profoundly skilled dryo be capable of killing paras simply because he’s good?

Or are we playing a survival game and not a battle royal

[thin dragon]

so in a way that can be understood, you want 4500kg to be able to win vs 60000kg?

[thin mantle]

450 vs 6000*

[thin dragon]

was in context to the 10 v 10, but even still it's ridiculous

[thin mantle]

And the second best animal in the completed roster at countering pounce

[thin mantle]

Oh gotcha

Should a really “good” para be soloing pachyrhinos simply because…it’s better?

[unkempt sierra]

Idk in that clip a full grown raptor gets one shot by a steg that’s no where near full growth

[thin mantle]

Yes

[unkempt sierra]

If you can micro ya

[thin mantle]

What’s the issue….

[unkempt sierra]

The amount of hits it takes for Dino’s to kill other Dino’s

[thin mantle]

We’re comparing a 2-3 ton stego vs an Omni

Ofcourse it’s going down in 1 hit

The solution is to not get hit

Omni is no tank

That’s why Omni is fast and agile

[unkempt sierra]

But it should take a few hits at least, fully grown

[thin mantle]

why tho

Why is this better, we’re just rewarding bad players for making mistakes that are VERY avoidable

[unkempt sierra]

Better combat to play against

[thin mantle]

You and I have FAR different ideas of what constitutes better combat then

I like it when my hand isn’t held

[unkempt sierra]

That dude in that clip is not bad

[thin mantle]

But he made a mistake he could’ve avoided

So in that specific instance where he died…yes he sorta was

[thin dragon]

how many kilos for a human?

[unkempt sierra]

Ok, let’s say you make 1 mistake and that steg makes 5 or 6 mistakes should you still get one shot?

[thin dragon]

70ish?

[thin mantle]

Yes, stego’s lack the agility or speed or small size to dodge attacks, that’s why they’re large and tanky

Taking hits is apart of their play style

Taking hits is not apart of omnis play style

[unkempt sierra]

Because you can as a stegosaurus you can make wayyyyy more mistakes and get away with it as a stego

[thin dragon]

that makes sense

[thin mantle]

Yes…because you’re fighting animals WAY smaller than you

A tiger can make far more mistakes fighting an army of squirrels than each of those squirrels can make against that tiger

[unkempt sierra]

One sec brb don’t go anywhere

[thin dragon]

I'm gonna go somewhere, have a good discussion :P

[thin mantle]

Cya irri

[unkempt sierra]

If the Dino is gonna be a tank it should be a tank and not one shot the mere fact that one mistake will cost you a fully grown raptor is dumb, mean while you as a 6000 hp stegosaurus can make multiple mistakes and not suffer any major consequences is dumb and it’s not just raptor, it’s with the other Dino’s as well

[thin mantle]

Being tanky does not preclude high damage, if anything it implies it

Anky is the quintessential example of this

It’s borderline immune to damage from the majority of potential sources…and breaks a spinos skull in a single swipe

Also…we’re comparing Omni to Stego…the gravity of their mistakes is not, and should not be equivalent

They’re not balanced to be equals and never will be

Same as Cerato is never going to be balanced to solo rexes….

That’s not why it exists in the game

Viability is measured by survivability, not how many animals you can solo

Omni being able to escape 90% of its threats by turning around and running away means it can be balanced weaker than most of those who cannot

For the exact same reason, stego is very powerful and tanky, but is very slow

A stego is literally incapable of KOSing unless the target is unaware of its existence

[unkempt sierra]

But nothing beats it in a straight up brawl no matter how skillful a single opponent is

[thin mantle]

Deino does

Especially now

[dusky surge]

And the roster is still very much incomplete

[thin mantle]

And yes the roster is VERY much so incomplete

[unkempt sierra]

Ya if there’s a lot of them, but I’ve fought and killed so many deinos, there not really threatening unless there is a lot of them and they are in the water with you

[thin mantle]

No, one can do it

On the shore

If you haven’t experienced this you’ve only encountered bad deinos…which makes sense, most are

[unkempt sierra]

Ya I get that and it can be a necessary evil, but for match ups it suffers tremendously

Ohh I’ve encountered good deinos

[thin mantle]

Well….yeah but that’s a roster issue

[unkempt sierra]

Some have gotten really close to killing my steg go

[thin mantle]

Not a stego being OP issue

Especially considering how stego is the most avoidable animal in the game

[unkempt sierra]

Most avoidable and unkillable

[thin mantle]

No that’s deino

Deino literally can never die unless it kills itself

Omnis can hunt stegos, duo’s of deinos can ambush stegos

[unkempt sierra]

Even if the Denos get that ambush off the steg can still live

[thin mantle]

Not if there are two, but in a 1v1 same applies to the deino

[unkempt sierra]

I’ve tanked like 8 bites from a pack of full browns

[thin mantle]

2 deinos will just lock you in their stun cycle

[unkempt sierra]

Even if they stun it’s so ez to run tho

And kite

[thin mantle]

Good, I wouldn’t want it to be a guaranteed kill

[thin mantle]

Only works against the dumbest players tbf

You can’t kite any sane player as a stego…

[unkempt sierra]

But why does it have to be a guaranteed kill for steg vs raptor

[thin mantle]

Because Omni doesn’t weigh 8 tons

It’s a less than half ton raptor

It’s also not

Just turn around, you don’t have to fight the stego if you think it will win

Choosing fights is a skill in this game

[unkempt sierra]

True, but let’s say you half the damage stego does, is it really going to brake the game? If steg has to 2 shot a raptor to kill is that really going to make steg unplayable?

[thin mantle]

Yes

Quite possibly

Omnis being able to tank through a tail swing quite literally renders avoiding attacks pointless

[unkempt sierra]

How Carno will still suck vs steg

[thin mantle]

Carno isn’t even supposed to interact with stegos that aren’t smaller than it

[unkempt sierra]

Tenos can kill stegs

[obtuse ocean]

Sure, nerf omnis agility/speed/stam etc then. Cus thats OP if you compare it to stego

[unkempt sierra]

Even now when tenos are in groups

[thin mantle]

Not in a million years would any somewhat sentient stego let themselves be killed by a group of animals slower than omnis and the same size as carnos with no forward facing combative abilities

[unkempt sierra]

😂

[thin mantle]

Any adult stego that gets killed by any group of Tenontos should consider simply not touching the animal XD

Like that’s a new low

[unkempt sierra]

I’ve done it before it’s easier to kill a steg with a group of tenos than it is with a group of raptors

Of course it was 8 full grown tenos vs 1 steg

[spare delta]

I got killed by carnos as stego but only cus I was safe logging and left my desk

[humble heart]

Bruh it takes 11 headshots from a kick to get killed by a teno, and you can oneshot that teno when it tries to kick

Literally you gotta be on 500000 ping and be crap to lose to tenos, even a group of 20 couldnt kill a stego

[thin mantle]

It’s just not…a stego can still oneshot a Tenonto, it’s easier to hit than a Carno, and all of their combative abilities require they face AWAY from the stego to land any attacks…

If you’ve done that, good for you, but even 8 tenos is no actual threat to an adult stego that’s playing the game

[unkempt sierra]

Just gotta bait the swing, and someone close by the head goes in for the kick

[thin mantle]

Go to a rock or some water and they simply can’t touch you

Your head will be facing an obstacle

[humble heart]

Thats bs, 4 raptors alone can do a better job against a stego than 10 tenos

[thin mantle]

Which is again, fine

Tenonto is NOT meant to fight stegos at all

[humble heart]

If your the steg you just wait till they began to turn for their kick. They stand no chance

[unkempt sierra]

Idk gala did you see that clip above?

[humble heart]

Lets not forget they are both herbs lol

[humble heart]

Whats it abt

[spare delta]

Can tenos trigger bleed of stegos? 🩸

[unkempt sierra]

https://youtu.be/yfcBOR7GEU0

[thin mantle]

I don’t really ever care about the diet of the animal when considering a matchup….teno simply has no reason mechanically to fight a stego, so it shouldn’t

[unkempt sierra]

4:55 @humble heart

[thin mantle]

With kicks and claws yes, both abilities leave you wide open

[humble heart]

What abt it?

[unkempt sierra]

Full grown raptor gets one shot by a not fully grown steg

[humble heart]

Ok so what?

[thin mantle]

Lol that Omni didn’t even aim it’s dismount xD

I actually change my mind that was a bad Omni player

[humble heart]

I dont see your point

[unkempt sierra]

How is it fair

[thin mantle]

Aim towards the front of the stego and the swing wouldn’t have even landed

[humble heart]

Bc one took 3h to ge to that point the other took 45 minutes

And one is a apex the other is a lower tier

I recall sub rex one shots a utah

[thin mantle]

One is a tank and the other is an agile pack hunter

[humble heart]

So I dont see your point

[thin mantle]

Would a stego one tapping a dryo or hypsi be unfair?

[spare delta]

And stego can't be changed or it will get destroyed by apexes to come

[unkempt sierra]

Why is it that a fully grown raptor gets insta killed by a non fully grown steg

[thin mantle]

Well to be more specific, nerfing stego now makes it fodder to deinos even on land, and even moreso to apexes coming soonish

[humble heart]

Nah we need to nerf stego dryo takes 30 minutes to grow its only fair it can be a 2-shot, lets make the tail swing deal 10% dmg

[thin mantle]

Because that not fully grown stego is still WAY bigger than that raptor

[humble heart]

ONE TAKES 3 HOURS TO GROW to that point. The other takes 45 minutes. A FRESHLY SPAWNED DEINO CAN KILL A FG UTAH

[spare delta]

An adolescent rhino kills a grown lion too

[thin mantle]

A juvenile giraffe can one tap a spotted hyena by kicking it

[spare delta]

Or buffalo

[unkempt sierra]

A poacher could one tap a giraffe too

Nerf guns they are to op

[thin mantle]

Unironically yes

[humble heart]

I agree on that honestly

[thin mantle]

But for balancing reasons….ranged weaponry is a risky subject

[unkempt sierra]

Lmao

[thin mantle]

Different topic entirely

[humble heart]

Stego may be savaged tbh

[thin mantle]

We don’t simply nerf things that do a lot of damage

[thin mantle]

Stego, Carno, teno….any nesting animal….all fodder

It’s why I only want shotty’s

[humble heart]

No I mean stego sepcifically bc its so slow

[spare delta]

U know wild boars are wholly bulletproof

[humble heart]

It will struggle to flee from the shooters

[thin mantle]

Oh I know, I listed the others because they’re plains dwelling animals, easy to see from range, and on occasion…..don’t constantly move

[obtuse ocean]

I honestly feel stego is really fast while running, the walk is slow

[humble heart]

The walk is very very slow. The run is only 25 kph tho or something like that

[spare delta]

It covers a lot of ground bc of it's size

[obtuse ocean]

Yea but as you said earlier, if you change stego it can be destroyed by apexes. I dont see rex having same stam/speed as stego while running that is. Stego will prob be played out in the open field, if you play it in the dense areas its prob a mistake.

[dusky surge]

@stable basin because both pachy and carno are insanely broken rn (although idk how you're getting rundown by pachies, considering omnis are notably faster, both sprinting and trotting)

[stable basin]

I've been ambushed basically every playthrough and I am not a competitive player. I keep away from the busiest areas, I am perfectly content with just feeding on AI, but try running away from a Pachy with a broken leg.

[dusky surge]

yea

i 100% get you

pachy and carno are in really frustrating spots atm

pachy is so strong that it is able to play recklessly, having no natural predators, and carno has become overtuned to the point that it can kill everything smaller than it (excluding pachy, who is so OP it can counter the already OP carno)

[stable basin]

When I am meeting other Raptors in game, they always ask me if we wanna go center, and I am like... WHY?! I just wanna look at scenery and have babies and be cute. Please, my RL is stressful enough.

[stable basin]

Ughhh... I know balancing is hard, but the lack of playable species makes it plain obvious

Can't wait to have the Allosaurus back.

[hasty coyote]

2 things:
1: judging by its size and speed, that stego is about 2-3 tons, prob closer to 2. Since as far as I know, the hp to damage ratio is consistent across growth. Thus, the stego would only need to be 2.16 tons to deal 450 a swing, which lines up pretty much perfectly with the vid.
2:that Omni probably got headshot by the stego, so it could be even smaller. Could be as small as 1.44 tons

Thus, this whole situation makes sense, unless you want to make stegos or all not full grown dinos unplayable.

[dusky surge]

@humble heart carno charge needs a nerf, it doesn't need a turn rate nerf

the hitbox is very evidently the core issue with it

[humble heart]

Its weird, as I could not turn out of the way whatsoever

[dusky surge]

because the hitbox is bus sized

you literally cant dodge it because it can hit you from so far

[humble heart]

Yeah

Thats a good point

[dusky surge]

the turn rate change is good for carno

before the charge was a useless ambush mechanic completely unfitting of carno, and useless against people who were looking in your direction and had their hands on the keyboard

[humble heart]

Hmm I see

[dusky surge]

hell, even calling it an ambush tool is a compliment

[humble heart]

I just really would like some form of change soon. I know the devs arent fast with anything but just editting a few of those lines of codes to let utah have a bit more of a chance to escape a carno would be great

Its near impossible to escape

[azure crescent]

@unkempt sigil small nitpick, crocs don’t see poorly during the day

They see about as well as us, maybe a little less

[unkempt sigil]

..maybe im thinking abt aligators. either way, a vision filter idea would still be interesting if u know what im tryna say

[tall bronze]

Vision differences were talked about before. I love the idea, but it's one of those things that can VERY easily backfire. Gotta be careful.

[opal tapir]

omni got so weak this update nobody is playing him

everywhere r deinos and carnos

[thin mantle]

It's not because omni was nerfed, that basically has nothing to do with it

Despite being disgustingly op even U5 omni would suffer in this meta

Because charge is busted, doesn't really matter much how hard you hit when you can't hit the target spamming a CC buswide 350dmg charge over and over again

[tiny thicket]

There is a way for omni to solo a tenonto but there is no way for a pack to kill a solo carno.

[hollow canyon]

A Tenonto that dies to a solo Omni is not a very good Tenonto.

[tiny thicket]

same goes for the carno

[hollow canyon]

Carno isn't just not a very good Carno, it's more so in the category of "I should seriously think whether I shouldn't uninstall this game"(or it's a very new player)

[golden coral]

@tiny thicketSo you want to keep all the bad things from u6 and u5 for carno, at the same time? As well as return bucking to being useless by just adding more bleed for both pounce and prey? And then to top it off, you want the growth curve for stego, and even deino for that matter, to go back to u5 where you have to be very high growth to even be viable?

What's the goal here, make omni even more op than it was in u5, make carno even more weak than it was in u5, and make stego and deino go back to hiding in bushes or otherwise for most of the growth again?

[twilit juniper]

The fact that it has 2 upvotes

[tiny thicket]

i am taking the best balancing factor from both updates

carno was weak in update 5 coz charge was never handy,but keeping charge time as up 6 makes charging in short distance viable but difficult to turn carno never turned quickly however it had the best acceleration

[golden coral]

Which together makes it the worst of both of them.

Charge back then was bad because you couldn't turn with it. Bucking back then was bad because it wasn't effective enough.

So not only do you want to keep current carno normal bad turning, you also want the charge turn to be bad, which means carno can't do anything now. Same for omni, you keep the buck, but you also just add more bleed, and longer bleed times, so it still won't help to buck an omni off. And then the growth for stego (deino might be fine but deino is fine for other reasons), would only lead to stegos hiding in bushes again for almost all their growth.

[dusky surge]

also this little tidbit "increase stamina consumption when blood pool is low"

this would be horrid, and would mean omni wins basically any and every hunt

[tiny thicket]

thats where skill comes into play

[golden coral]

That has nothing to do with skill, those are sheer stats.

[dusky surge]

reduced stam regen from bleed + increased stam consumption from bleed + can't buck while out of stam = why would you do this

[golden coral]

If you truly think the prior charge was fine, and you somehow also think current carno turn is fine at the same time, you're just statwise making carno completely terrible. Same goes for omni combination.

Right now due to bucking being good, the omnis need to work in a pack to wear things down and then pounce, and use tap pounces often, which increases the risk and the general play on both sides. If you just up the omnis lethality you've removed all of that.

[tiny thicket]

not able to do anything with fractured body does exist then why not?

[dusky surge]

because that's a fracture and it has an entirely different effect?

you can't just make bleed a better fracture

[tiny thicket]

having no blood causes fatigue

[dusky surge]

which is why stam regen goes WAY down

that's already something that exists

you don't need to also increase the rate stam drains on top of that

that's an absurd overbuff

anything with bleed would be nearly guaranteed wins

[tiny thicket]

then should low blood lead to weak attacks?

[dusky surge]

no, that also sounds horrible

[golden coral]

You already lose stam regen when low on blood, there's your fatigue.

[dusky surge]

making omni just completely invalidate other animals is ridiculously unfun

[golden coral]

And with how most of the targets you can hunt need stam, like teno and stego, well... xD

[dusky surge]

or any bleed, for that matter

you so much as get a scratch and you're losing so many key stats

[tiny thicket]

omnis still get one shotted from most of them so makes sense

[dusky surge]

no, it doesnt

[golden coral]

Maybe if we traded stam regen for costing more for using stam, that could be interesting

[dusky surge]

omni has insane agility. it can use this to DODGE the attacks

facetanking is not omni's strong suit, try other animals for that

[dusky surge]

that'd just make bleed a body break with a different coat of paint

[golden coral]

It would yes. I am merely thinking in theoretical terms. But I guess you could do something else for fracture at that point, that you could maybe not do with bleed at all.

[dusky surge]

bleed is absolutely fine as is

it's a perfectly powerful tool that meshes well with omni's current hunting style of bleeding and exhaustion

[tiny thicket]

omni is not going to be the only bleeder though

[dusky surge]

i dont see the problem?

why would that matter here

a giga would also benefit from the bleed regen debuff

[tiny thicket]

what about tenonto?

[dusky surge]

its not a bleeder

[tiny thicket]

it is

[dusky surge]

no, it isnt lol

it HAS bleed, it's not a bleeder

carno CAN cause bleed, but it's not a bleeder

[tiny thicket]

its alt attacks do good amount of bleed doesnt it?

[dusky surge]

bleed is proportional to an attack's damage. It does the same amount of bleed a carno would if its bite did the same damage

[golden coral]

The kick does, but it does far more damage. Claw you could make an argument for, but claw is also mostly used vs omnis and well, in theory pachies xD

But that's more so the indirect use, teno isn't really meant to bleed things to kill them, any more than carno is.

[dusky surge]

omni is the ONLY animal in the game with a massive bleed multiplier, doing 3x the bleed per damage done than other animals

[golden coral]

Stego also does bleed, but well, it's not really a bleeder, as it stands at least

[dusky surge]

deino has bleed lol

absolutely not a bleeder

[keen plover]

Lower blood already causes slower healing as well as stam regen. Although the issue with low blood is that their isn't any visual indicators

[tiny thicket]

I can imagine tenontos bleeding out say a magy

[dusky surge]

heavily doubt

i'd imagine magy would have bleed resist (look at that thick skin), and would just tailwhip it to death

[golden coral]

And then get broken to pieces by a pachy xD

[keen plover]

It would kill it through damage before bleed. Even if it had default bleed res

Although the teno v magy matchup sounds fun

[tiny thicket]

but that makes bleed less intimidating and only a byproduct of taking lot of damage

[golden coral]

Not if it's a dedicated bleeder

Since at least in this case, omni has a higher bleed "muiltiplier"

Which means that despite the pounce doing little damage, it does a lot of bleed

[keen plover]

^ Even with that, lower bloodpool = worse stam regen

[golden coral]

The bleed is absolutely lethal on omni

[keen plover]

So you get a carno to 50% bloodpool for example as a teno. It now can barely run from you

Also why would you want more bleed for teno when the damage is already high?

[tiny thicket]

I want teno front attacks to be more viable

[keen plover]

ahhh more bleed to claw?

Even then, it's viable tbf. It does a good bit of damage and bleed right now with a very low stamina cost

[golden coral]

Also depend on the target, teno tends to have specific attacks for specific targets, or in a combo, rather than just use whichever one you like.

[keen plover]

Yeah. Even if you buffed bleed on claw, what would it be useful against?

[golden coral]

You don't really want to claw a carno anyway, it'll win that facetank I think at least.

[tiny thicket]

dilos and diablos

[golden coral]

I honestly doubt a teno will want to fight a dibble... xD

[keen plover]

Teno isn't fighting diablo or at least shouldn't go near it

[golden coral]

And dilo, maybe, but they're also bigger than omni and might just be something better avoided, if teno ever gets good use of water and all that.

[tiny thicket]

it can attack from the back it could be good strategy

[keen plover]

Depends on the amount as well

Diablo will likely have a very fast turn and it has reduced damage on its face with the ability to gore things

I don't think teno wants to fight that.

[tiny thicket]

what about trike it has lower turn rate and nothing is stoping tenontos to claw it from back

[dusky surge]

they are obviously going to give trike a counter to an assriding tenonto

[twilit juniper]

Probably yeah, it was showed that trikes turning on the spot will be very good, almost like a jump/hop 180, it looked cool and is probably a good way to flip around

[keen plover]

Trike should have a decent turn. Still slow enough for pack hunters to really put the hurt on it though

[tiny thicket]

also bleeders lack raw damage, a pachy can dish out high raw damage as well as fracture

[keen plover]

I'm confused about what the discussion is now

I guess pachys deal a lot of damage? But so does teno??? I'm a bit lost

[golden coral]

You did not just seriously suggest a teno would fight a trike? :p

[tiny thicket]

i mean who will stop them from hunting trike?

[dusky surge]

trike will

[golden coral]

The sheer size difference for one? :p

[tiny thicket]

how?

[dusky surge]

by GORING IT

[keen plover]

Tbf, that purely depends on what trike can do. 1 v 1 though, it isn't losing to anything in a fight

[golden coral]

I mean, even if a trike lets the teno claw it's rear end, that's going to do minimal damage/bleed, and the trike has massive weight, so you know, sure if you want to spend 30 min on it... xD

[tiny thicket]

but teno has agility just like omni?

[keen plover]

A group of tenos might be different though

[dusky surge]

exhibit A:

[keen plover]

It's almost impossible 1 v 1 unless the trike is afk

I do want to see how well a group of tenos can overwhelm a solo trike though

[tiny thicket]

I mean we have already hunted down stegos

[keen plover]

Yeah. Although stego does have a 2x multiplier on its head
It also has high damage, long range attack

[golden coral]

Sounds like a really bad stego if it dies to adult tenos honestly

Unless you have a whole lot of them maybe

[keen plover]

Depends where you are. Eventually, you get overwhelmed tbf. I tried against 8 multiple times in a test and if you were in the open, they would get you since their main attack is on their tail, so they will likely tank a hit

Keeping up with that many tenos gets annoying lol

I don't even think it was 8, more like 6 tbh

[golden coral]

Maybe if they only used tailslam yeah, I could see that work out eventually with sufficient numbers, but not so sure otherwise

[tiny thicket]

as for teno vs stego, kicking and tail slam is the strategy, whereas for teno vs trike claw attacks and dodging could be good

[keen plover]

kicks are better against stego tbf. 12 kicks to the head and it drops while you can tank a hit. It's pretty fun. I remember fighting a stego herd of 3 and we killed them all. The last one just gave up lol

[keen plover]

I'd say kicks would still be better against trike

Since you can kick and move while claw stops you

[tiny thicket]

though it would be harder to attack a trikes rear with a kick

[keen plover]

eh depends on the angle you try to kick it

Even if a teno herd could drop a trike, I'm more interested to see what omni packs do

[golden coral]

If they go for kicks, they're not out of range for a jab though

[keen plover]

I have this assumption that it will be pretty one sided and I'm interested to see what they give trike to avoid that

[keen plover]

Depends on the damage of jab. Is it something worth tanking

[tiny thicket]

maybe give trike the most nonsensical alt attack where it turns mid air

[keen plover]

If a jab is the only risk, you'd just heal up to where you can tank another hit and go in

[golden coral]

If you get a body hit, you have 350 health left. I don't know, I'd consider that quite the dangerous trade.

[keen plover]

more damage than stego tail swing??

[golden coral]

?

No, I'm talking teno vs stego

[keen plover]

My bad. I was assuming we were on trike lmao

I was saying that if it had a side attack / swing and it dealt stego damage then lord

Either way, for 12 kicks to the head. Surviving one jab while other tenos trade out means you can drop a solo stego. Which is why going for the health build on teno is great if you want to kill stegos

[twilit juniper]

i just dont 100% know how tenos would do the same for trike, if trike has 0 bait-able attacks, unlike stego/deino does, tenos wont win agaisnt a trike like ever

[golden coral]

Still sounds a bit odd that tenos are that good at fighting a stego honestly, would have to see it to make a better judgement of how good it really works

[tiny thicket]

I heard pachys are closely related to trikes and both are very weak against attacks from back though pachy has better turn rate what would trike have?

[keen plover]

It would require more attacks on a trike, but stego has the one shot ability that can reach really far so who knows. We'll have to see trike in action first

I would assume that stego is more of a risk though but eh

[keen plover]

Depends where you are mainly. Although if you're in the plains as stego (which is where it should be) then teno herds have a good chance against you

[twilit juniper]

Yeah, im rlly curious what kind of attacks trike will have aside from basic left click/gore

[golden coral]

Sounds quite terrible then, not sure if I should see that as an issue or not xD

[twilit juniper]

maybe stego wont be bodied by most things when the devs call it the apex it is =) (no offense)

[keen plover]

Was only possible when they buffed kick damage and added bleed to it

Before that, 8 tenos wouldn't even bother

Kick is the main tool that allows teno to attack larger things. Anything else gets it killed

[twilit juniper]

50/50, the range on tail slam makes it pretty good

u can literally not even get hit by a stego, and stand in front of it, far out of reach, and land a slam

[keen plover]

Slam is bad though tbf. It locks you in place. A stego can run up if it predicts the slam

[twilit juniper]

true

i dont expect much from official server stegos ^^;

[keen plover]

Yeah, which is why teno is so 'great' at killing stegos. Since most stego players suck

[twilit juniper]

they kill theyre own herbies and children protecting them, so, not big expectations of gaming skill

[golden coral]

So noted. I'm just thinking in general terms, the whole tenos fighting a trike or stego sounds odd. Same with carnos going up against a rex or giga I guess.

[keen plover]

Teno herd v rex

[tiny thicket]

allos would be better choice than carnos

[golden coral]

Yes... :p I don't know, I'm not inherently opposed to tenos fighting a trike, but you have to admit it sounds a little strange at least? :p

[golden coral]

They would, yes.

[keen plover]

100% but it makes for fun gameplay. High stakes type of deal

[twilit juniper]

This makes me think, any teno or carno grp could take down apexes if theyre godawful at the game, ive seen some properly questionable plays, some dont even know how to swing (as stego), and some dont know alt attacks exist

[keen plover]

It's not like the trike or stego can't win as well

[keen plover]

Deserved

It's fine as is imo. It makes it so the bad players are taken out

[twilit juniper]

yeah, me too, sometimes i question how said stego, or said deino made it to 100% adult xD

[keen plover]

Also it's not like teno is some easy to play as creature as well. You have to be a good teno player to even fight a stego that's bad

[golden coral]

Because there's not much to growing things in this game, and there's not much info on what you can do in game at that xD

[tiny thicket]

but bad players should never survive to adulthood in the first place

[golden coral]

For some reason most people do not look at keybinds so they don't know what they might be able to do or not do xD

[keen plover]

I had this teno player I was trying to help grow once. The poor guy tried to bite omnis and later died to thirst while we were in the middle of the plains lol

Since I was a stego, it was eating my diets as well lol