balance-feedback-discussion

[fleet torrent]

@alpine plover i think the price of getting more time its getting spawned with a family/protection

[tranquil pawn]

200% is a bit much ಠ_ಠ

We'd get a 3 hour stego and deino and that would be way to much lol

[dawn falcon]

I’d just bump 1 nutrient to 100%, 2 nutrients being 120% and 3 being 140% while making the road to getting 3 nutrients harder

And then you solve most of the issues with the current system

[hollow canyon]

@ebon kraken Wouldn't it be just easier to bring down the amount of bleed pounce applies rather than increasing all the blood values of every animal?

[ebon kraken]

Yeah it would. I thought they decreased the blood values of carno and pachy last update but I’m probably wrong.

[coral bolt]

They did

[dusky surge]

nah, the only thing that was done was that carno's bleed movement modifiers were changed

[dusky surge]

no they didnt

pachy remains exactly the same as it was on launch in terms of bloodpool and bleedrate, nothing has changed

carno got a modification to the rate at which it bleeds while standing, walking and trotting, but its bloodpool is still exactly the same

[coral bolt]

Oh, I thought they did

[golden coral]

@dawn falconFor the water "issue", I'm not sure if anything really is needed since deino can just swim away, but I wouldn't be opposed to making it so any terrestial need double stam for attacks when they're so deep into water that they wade. That way if you get too deep in and start attacking, you're much more limited and might want to retreat back to shallow or dry land. (will be fun when the deinos also realize any other apex or bigger will harass them if they can get away with it, which is why I personally think stego is fine, deinos just need to learn to avoid other apexes more often than not).

For the whole sideways jab, I believe they made it that way because they wanted stego to keep its flank towards the enemy more than just it's rear/tail. If you make all the jabs the same speed, then there's no point in any specific position, and while I personally think stego should be far more oriented towards just "to whom it may concern" kind of swings as opposed to precision jabs, I can see the reasoning in making them different speed to encourage the player to position themselves during combat. But I'd rather slow down that particular jab, make it a bit more powerful instead, and speed up the wider reach ones but lower their damage, so stego becomes more of the anti-"speed/agility" that it should be, rather than some kind of "glass cannon" with positioning (leave that for trike, would suit it much better).

[dawn falcon]

I would agree with the last paragraph had they implemented “dynamic” attack damage. So for instance, current jab would be as fast as it is, but due to the fact it’s cut short and the stego isnt using most of its body to gather momentum, the damage is significantly less than the other jabs.
But sadly, this is not the case, so I’d just make them all equal until then.
Not to mention the fact that the sideways jab has far less risk than the other jabs, due to an abysmal cooldown and barely any negative outcomes if you miss, besides stamina drain.

[golden coral]

I figured the side jab would be the most powerful, being more of a focused strike, hence also slower attack speed. It'd be what you'd use vs larger targets, while the more "AoE" style jab would be faster, weaker and more focused on dealing with groups of smaller targets. Not sure what you mean with "dynamic" attack damage, but it wouldn't be that strange to have different attacks with different damage, we already have that in other cases. Could just have RMB AoE jab, and Alt RMB focused jab, camera for which side you're attacking. Leaves LMB open for bites and Alt LMB for, well, if we get some moving attack or something. Or maybe some kind of stomp or other cool attack that could be useful.

The sideways jab is limited in reach, that's the tradeoff you get. It's less risky for an attacker since you know it's a specific point, so it's way easier to avoid. If yuou want to "even" the attack speeds out, I'd say they should all be somewhere between the sidejab and the others, not quite that fast as it is, but faster than the others are. Also stamina is rather important, since you have no good alternative at all to your jabs, unless it's a juvie or maybe this one omni that lets you bite it somehow. The quick jab would be more useful if omnis had to actually aim for the flank and thus put themselves at risk, otherwise it's mostly deinos and possibly other stegos that it's useful against, since everything else has the mobility to juke.

[hollow canyon]

@steady flax both Pachy and Utah have the same stamina pool(105 seconds), which is highest in the game aside from Dryo which has 15 seconds more of runtime.

[steady flax]

Idk if that is accurate. I play Utah and Pachy. Utah stam seems to be better than the Pachys but that’s just my opinion.

[hollow canyon]

They're the same - I'm not talking based on how they feel, I'm telling you what they are like

both of these animals have 105 seconds of runtime

the runtimes from what I recall are something along these lines:
Dryo - 120 seconds
Utah, Pachy - 105 seconds
Tenonto - 90 seconds
Stego - 75 seconds
Carno - 60 seconds

Deino is somewhere around like 15 or something but I never actually checked it

no idea about Pteranodon

and before someone barges in and tells me that Hypsi has a longer runtime - I don't believe in Hypsis existence, as far as I'm concerned that animal is a cryptid and I'm one of the skeptics towards it

As for Pachy specifically - it utilises stamina more during combat than Utah does so that's why it might feel like it has less stamina than the raptor

I think there's a decent case to be made that all of the runtimes in this game should be increased

[fresh laurel]

Dont think thats needed tbh

[thin mantle]

I’d be down for more runtime

[steady flax]

And I’m supposed to just take ur word?😂 I would have to test it out myself. Do you know how much Stam is used with their special ability? Utah vs Pachy

[hollow canyon]

I mean you can feel free to test it yourself, you will get the same results as I did if you test it properly.

And no, I haven't checked how much stamina their special abilities cost.

Again - Pachy uses stamina more in combat so that may make it seem like it has less stamina but its actual runtime is same as Utah's

Utah is always free to bite while Pachy needs to either use alt attacks or its ram during a fight, the compensation for that is the fact that its attacks apply hard crowd control that knocks Utahraptors down.

If you think I'm lying to you for some reason then feel free to grow a Utah and Pachy and time how long it takes you to run out of stam.

[eager ledge]

I completely agree with this this idea @steady flax it would make sense for it to have since it doesn’t have the Sufficient dmg anymore to defend for long periods of time it definitely needs a way to retreat if things get too much for it to handle

Sry I’m speaking in strange sentences and typos the pain and anistesa meds from my surgery hasn’t completely worn off yet

[wraith relic]

yo you got alotta pings

[eager ledge]

Possibly

[eager ledge]

I’ve checked on a few of them but but I can’t get to all of them so I am only able to look at important ones

[golden coral]

@wraith relicI think it's because the bite is meant to be useful vs smaller stuff, and giving it dryo level biteforce might be too weak for that to really be worth it. Also if the bite is really "useless", then you have no way to defend yourself at all without using stamina. Might be better if stego and some others got something more fitting for their basic attack that can make sense being sufficiently powerful.

[wraith relic]

you it shouldn't really have a bite in the first place

but still it's almost as powerful as utaHS

50 is still a bit much

[eager ledge]

Indeed good logic ✅

[eager ledge]

Dont know dude herbis had decent bite forces for them being plant eaters 50 is low end we lucky it ain’t 80 the only reason it’s not 80 and its 50 is to still get carnivores an ege so you not immortal if you stam gon the carnivores still have a chance they just got to drain the stam on the big type herbis sry if typos

[steady flax]

All good haha. But yeah for sure, Pachy needs some help lol.

[ashen frigate]

Mark the servers "as read"

[pallid loom]

@livid spindle For your idea on Utah pounce, I think that would work as an "Ambush Pounce".

For instance, press crtl to go into stalk mode/crouch mode and then hold right click to enter "Pounce Aim" mode, projecting the arc of your pounce with a beam in the UI

Camera generally stays relatively still, but you get to see how far/high you'll pounce with the arc

[hollow topaz]

The Stego pounce thing kinda sounds like a bug tbh that I’m not sure is exclusive to stegos only, but I’m not positive on that lol

[thin mantle]

It is, mechanically utahs can't be damaged by the animal they're pounced on

was likely a latency/ping issue

[golden coral]

On the other hand, it should be a mechanic that stego can hit pouncers off of it, but not for the time being.

[thin mantle]

Yeah stego should be relatively unpouncable once the roster is fleshed out more, it's tail is dexterous enough to swat them off

[zenith oak]

Idk, seems odd for utahs to be built to hunt large animals in packs yet stego is the acception? Especially when utah is shown pouncing animals in similar weight class to stego like acro, I know it's just concept art but just something I want to add.

[golden coral]

Just like anky, deino, and most likely cheirus and spino, all for slightly different reasons. Being built to hunt large game (which is the entire midtier roster for that matter for an omni), does not mean you're good at hunting everything equally well. Same with small game hunter, there's obviously a difference between hunting a pachy, omni, teno, kentro, or galli for example. It's not so much "can not hunt", but more so "this is a terrible idea unless the right circumstances". Omnis are flank attackers, they would inherently be bad vs targets that can defend their flanks effectively, or in the case of anky, just have armor that negates the attack itself, and so on.

[thin mantle]

Yes, among others...stego, anky, cheirus, spino, plateo...most likely the larger sauropods...the list goes on...mechanical interaction is what dictates matchups, the base stats are just the foundation from which they're built

[dusky surge]

doesnt seem odd to me at all, its perfectly designed to protect itself from smaller attackers. Omni is likely just going to ignore stego and instead go for animals like trike or shant

[thin mantle]

There is also something to be said about Omni being a “large game hunter” simply meaning it hunts animals larger than it…which makes sense since most animals ARE larger than it

Not that it has to be taking down everything regardless of size

[dusky surge]

@sand smelt dryo bleed resist is the same as pachy, teno, carno, utah, ptera, stego and hypsi

[neon willow]

I'm curious what the reasoning is for cheirus and spino?

[golden coral]

Arms for extra utility, might be helpful in handling things running around you. And they're semiaquatic, so if something becomes a problem and you're near enough water, either utilize your height + potential abilities (if being semiaquatic means something, such as better ability to wade or something), or in the case of spino at least, just go for a stroll on the bottom to wash of the omnis.

[neon willow]

Fair enough, though idk how limited mobility dino arms can effectively protect their flanks

[golden coral]

Not so much for protecting their flanks, as better ability to try and get the omnis on the ground possibly.

[neon willow]

Fair enough

[sand smelt]

do you play dryo often, because if you do you'll realize their bleed resistance is not high enough for their size and they can't fight back against most things and their only defense is speed and stamina and you can't run for long periods while bleeding since bleeding might actually increase the amount you bleed, so essentially as a dryo trying to defend yourself in any way to anything your size or smaller is a death sentence.

[dawn falcon]

He’s QA lol

I think anyway

[sand smelt]

the difference between all you listed is that pachys, tenos, carno, ptera, and stegos all have defense mechanisms and unless jumped by many Utahs can easily fight back/larger playerbase playing them which means larger groups to defend from Utahs

[dusky surge]

I was, yea

[sand smelt]

considering Utahs now 2 bite a dryo instead of 3 bite, and Utahs bleed was increased it puts dryo in a really bad position

[golden coral]

I mean, you're a dryo. If you take more than one body bite you've already messed up. Dryos don't get touched by things unless either A, bad performance on the player, which is an issue all of its own with Evrima or B, the dryo is just either being reckless or just don't know how to be a dryo

[tall bronze]

I was gonna say, you shouldn't be getting hit has Dryo

[sand smelt]

the problem is that if a dryo gets bit by a utah they're already dead, they used to have a chance pre update 5 but Utahs deal too much bleed for dryos to run for long, 1 bite can bleed you out in 2 minutes

[tall bronze]

But you shouldn't be getting bit though is the issue. You have all the power to avoid and dodge Utahs

[sand smelt]

if you see them

[neon willow]

I mean... Ambush is a legitimate hunting strategy used by many irl predators

[tall bronze]

You should be able to see them if you pay attention

[sand smelt]

yes, if you get ambushed you die as a dryo there is no chance because you bleed out

[golden coral]

Hm. I know for a fact I've managed to survive a bite, and I don't think it was a tailbite judging from the amount of bleed I lost by the time I had run sufficiently far away to shake the pair of them. But maybe it was a base of tail bite, so not as bad. But you can disappear pretty quickly in forests.

If an omni properly ambushes you, it'd pounce you and then you die yes. But if you see it coming and can react, you should be able to juke it.

[hollow topaz]

If you get ambushed as any dino you risk dying, like utahs risk getting killed by carnos due to a stun if they aren’t paying attention. It’s not just dryos

[golden coral]

But then you're a dryo, you're not in omni weightclass as it were, you're more like a herrera.

[sand smelt]

if you get pounced as a dryo getting pounced is your fault but getting bit while running from utahs shouldn't be a death sentence

[dawn falcon]

Would be nice if there weren’t bushes everywhere and hills the size of mountains

[tall bronze]

I blame that on Spiro being Spiro

[golden coral]

It's not, I've survived them. Could run until I stopped bleeding, so it's doable, but I can't say if that was a bodyhit or not.

[sand smelt]

but most of the time it is, pre update 5 getting bit by Utahs was usually managable and you could escape, the dryo was so good because it can run fast for long distances however if you get bit your entire advantage is taken away

also in the time it takes for a dryo to sit up fast a Utah can deliver 2 bites, 3 bites to kill is enough to give you a chance to escape from an ambush

[golden coral]

Well yes, if you're sitting down, you're probably going to die, but that kind of goes for most things that can be jumped like that by equivalent or more powerful critter.

[sand smelt]

yes

but being given a chance is nice

[golden coral]

Well, I can't say I share your experience, so far most of the time I die as dryo it's either because ping or fps dies, or because I just insist on messing with the carnos or omnis until they inevitably get me. But the times I run away I normally get away just fine, most of the time even the omnis don't bother following for too long.

[sand smelt]

I personally don't get hit but when I play with my friends whose intelligence is questionable they die roughly 4x more than I do while playing dryo because they're not attuned to the dryo life as well as in the time it takes to get up they're dead

[golden coral]

So while I guess them being able to handle a bite on the body bleedwise wouldn't be bad, I'm not sure it's needed considering how easy it is to avoid being bitten in the first place.

[sand smelt]

quick question, do you think dryo should have higher bleed resistance, Utah should do less damage or both, it's not really a dryo problem but a gamewide problem, Carnos effectively have a quarter of the blood pool they had pre update 5 and Utahs kill everything far faster than they did in the past, more damage more bleed and nerfed blood pools

the problem with bleeding so fast is you can't run away anymore you're expected to sit there and die

[golden coral]

Carno really could do with getting its old bleed multipliers back yes. I don't think dryos need higher bleed res, but if that or omni damage change, a touch of more bleed resist on dryo would be best. Omni is fine damagewise far as I know. And yes, omnis do have issues, but it's mostly due to how easy the pounce is and the power in relation to growing an omni and so on. I don't believe bloodpools have been touched, nor have damage or bleed been, at least not recently.

[sand smelt]

didn't carnos bloodpool get halved in update 5? in addition to Utah dealing more bleed over all as well as doing 30% more damage

[neon willow]

No but the multipliers for bleeding for standing, walking, etc were increased. So you bleed faster

[golden coral]

I don't think so no. Last I know of what was done with carno was increasing its bleed multiplier when walking/trotting/standing and all that, which is why it bleeds out so fast now. Also no idea what you're getting more bleed overall from, much less any 30% more damage? Can you refer to any notes in the updates for it?

[neon willow]

But not apparently the multiplier for running

[sand smelt]

they used to have a bite force of 50 now it is 65

[sand smelt]

also if bleed multipliers were increased and none were decreased, yes they bleed more overall

[golden coral]

They do yes, but it wasn't a change to the bloodpool itself. And yes, omni got slightly more damage, but I think that's fine. And that buff is rather old so.

[sand smelt]

relative to how fast patches and updates are released it's quite recent in actuality

also why are people calling Utah omni?

[golden coral]

Because that's supposed to be it's new name I think.

It's apparently getting renamed due to us at some point getting an actual utahraptor. So omni it is, or so people say at least.

[dusky surge]

thats its new name in U6

it's now omniraptor

[vapid owl]

I've just watched a video on the update 6 stress test, the game looks 10x better. But as far as carno goes, the new charge will be way too busted.

[hollow canyon]

Dryo has the same bleed resistance as every other animal barring Deinosuchus and Carnotaurus

Dryo has a lower blood pool than those other creatures though

the way it works is that the blood pools correspond to your hp pool and weight

Dryosaurus being a fraction of the size of Pachy will naturally have a significantly lower blood pool than Pachy, their bleed resistance however, meaning - the rate of bloodloss - is the same.

Having said that - I think Dryo needs a buff here and there, specifically one to its stamina pool

It has only 120 seconds of runtime which is imo not good enough compared to Pachy and Utah - who have 105 seconds of runtime

[hollow canyon]

it's bugged apparently, unfortunately they probably won't have the time to fix it which will make gauging its actual power rather difficult

[vapid owl]

I see, thanks for the input! glad it's not intended, but unfortunate that it's currently a problem.

[hollow canyon]

Yea it will probably be quite a bit of a problem but unfortunately I don't expect them to have enough time to fix it and test it again before the end of the year

[frail bobcat]

@flint canopy you are supposed to use the kick for damage

[thin mantle]

@flint canopy Use tail for the range to initiate a stun, and use the kick for actual damage

[hollow canyon]

Note that both these attacks deal actually similar damage - kick deals like 25 more iirc

kick just costs less stamina

and also applies bleed

which is death to Carno

[visual mist]

@vale harness what do you like about the dino balance

[crude nexus]

[stark knoll]

@crude nexus BTW, teno got buffed. Buck stam damage per tick increase means it takes more stamina off of the omniraptors

[crude nexus]

Yet it receives unnecessary damage nerfs which just fart on the poor booger

[stark knoll]

What damage nerfs?

[crude nexus]

It didn’t get damage nerfs?

I read the patch notes

Either the patch notes had a mistake when released and were patched, or it’s there

[stark knoll]

All I see is the buck change and bugfixes

[alpine plover]

Okay fellas

What's the issue with Carno now

[eager ledge]

Legacy carno is fine I don’t know why they having a fit if current carno is as they say like legacy carno I am happy because legacy carno was balanced

[alpine plover]

So what are people complaining about

That it's too good or too bad?

[eager ledge]

I don’t know

[eager ledge]

That is a very good question

[alpine plover]

Trying out the update rn

Seeing what the fuss is about

[thin mantle]

I just rolled a pack of 7 utahs of varying sizes (most of them over 60% at least) as a 70% carno...charge is busted

Wasn't even hard

[alpine plover]

Ahhh I see

So it is busted then

[thin mantle]

Yes

Very....like I don't think carno has been this powerful since it fractured with charge

[alpine plover]

How does the charge work currently

[thin mantle]

It has a superior turn rate to that of your sprint whilst traveling at the same speed as your sprint...making it easier to land in both regards

[alpine plover]

How good is the charge turn rate in compared to the sprint turn rate?

[thin mantle]

it's better

Very slightly and barely but it's better

[alpine plover]

I'll have to do some testing then

[dawn falcon]

Here we go with another person wanting Carno to be the ambush carnivore

[alpine plover]

From what I last played, I was doing pretty okay dodging Carno charges and ankle breaking as an Omni

Also Carno can't fair well as an ambush predator if it's environment is in the plains, not enough cover for it to get it's bang

[thin mantle]

I don't want carno to be an ambush predator...I also don't want it to be the most effective brawler and pursuit predator in the game

Which is exactly what it is rn

[dawn falcon]

That’s true but I wasn’t talking about you, Fluff

[alpine plover]

They should tune down it's brawler capabilities then

[dawn falcon]

The certain someone in the balance feedback 🌚

[alpine plover]

I like Carno being an effective pursuit predator

[thin mantle]

Charge just needs to get removed so carno can get an ability that aids it's control during a sprint than an ability specifically designed to hit targets that aren't moving...well accept for how it is now since nothing can dodge it

[alpine plover]

So something like a drift ability or acceleration?

[thin mantle]

Kinda....I'd moreso go along the lines of a burst of quick turning that costs stam...kinda like a massive version of dryo's new dash but with more weight and inertia

So it can stay on top of smaller faster targets without adjusting it's base turn rates AND limiting it's effectiveness in brawler-esq combat

Especially given how charge works now...it's just...what do you do if you're not a pachy?

[keen plover]

Fluff... Did you see what happened in the pachy v teno matchup

Teno slam with body fracture is 24% of its stamina. Kick is 18%

[thin mantle]

He.....hehe.....hehehehe.....heeeheee....hahaaaaahaa HAHAHHAHAH

I can't anymore I'm broken

Not that it mattered since teno is literal fodder to pachy but now it's WORSE :D

[keen plover]

4 slams and die

and it takes 3 slams to kill a pachy

💀

[thin mantle]

As if pachy is supposed to be even remotely combatively relevant against something like a teno...that can't run away from it and is purely defensive

Like teno didn't get nerfed itself....technically...but dear god why do the devs hate it

Carno gets a buff to an attack teno doesn't even have a direct counter to unless it can dodge it...which it can't do anymore...pachy deletes it...utah shreds it...hopefully less now since bucking stam drain is better but the mechanical interaction isn't different so it's only a delay of the inevitable...like wtf

[alpine plover]

I think you can fair well if you're a raptor with the charge still

Though I'm not sure what a Teno can do except a perfectly timed counter

[thin mantle]

The pack I just deleted would say otherwise

[alpine plover]

Teno seems to be having the short end of the stick it seems

[thin mantle]

I'm NOT a good carno I never play it btw...like never

[alpine plover]

I'm fairing well against Carno's rn

Killing a few as a raptor

[thin mantle]

Oh yeah they just don't have a counter to it now, their run isn't fast enough to overcome the turn rate

[dawn falcon]

The turn rate is literally U4.5 levels

That’s way too much for an ability like charge

[thin mantle]

They might be using it wrong then...are they running in...charging...and running out or are they stopping and giving you openings...cuz the way I used it I never got within point blank of the omnis unless I was charging into them

[thin mantle]

It's honestly never been this fast before

[dawn falcon]

Can we just scrap Carno charge please

[alpine plover]

They charge me from a distance to try clip me, or to intercept
I'm well accustomed to turn rates and sidesteps since I've spent many hours practicing movement

[dawn falcon]

Implement Novas headswing ability

Please

[alpine plover]

I dive, step, and bait them into missing currently

How much stam does charge burn rn?

[thin mantle]

Yes...it's an ill fitting mess of an ability

[thin mantle]

same as before...not very much if you use it before you hit the target

[dawn falcon]

Wall incoming

[alpine plover]

I see, so that explains why I'm just burning up their stam then

[dawn falcon]

Among the options that have not been tried the only ones that stand out seem to be Reducing or removing the Audible growl and allowing charges execution at lower velocities. Reason being by most is so that it can be better used as an ambush tool. However as I said before, this seems overall contradictory to the animals tool kit as its overwhelming speed better supports the playstyle of active chases, i.e a pursuit predator, something charge does not help whatsoever as the mechanic drastically increases stamina drain and cuts mobility.

Replacements
Given that mechanic replacements are on the table(See Dryo Dodge), I'd like to propose the option of overall reworking carnos main mechanic with something more befitting its niche as a small game pursuit predator. This idea comes from a discord member known as Brece#2976, whom has drawn key visuals for the proposal, which is broken down as the following.

• Carnotaurus' speed boost charge is removed completely
• Pressing RMB while sprinting will allow carno to execute a head swing move, dealing light damage and knockdowns to smaller targets and staggers to animals such as tenonto
• Holding RMB while sprinting will force carno to launch itself forward with all of its momentum, using all of its energy and weight to preform a much harder hitting ram comparable to current values, however missing the attack will send you into a longer lasting drift/recoil state.
• Using RMB while standing/trotting/walking will play a simple head swing with low/moderate damage and very limited CC ability.

Overall the above proposition would ideally allow Carno to use its overwhelming speed in conjunction with a flexible "Head swing" attack to attempt throwing animals it may be pursuing off balance/to the ground. Likwise the held variation provides a much more controllable heavy hitting variation that can provide a much more interesting combat strategy then simply running in one direction.

Or well it’s breces idea but yeah

[alpine plover]

That's a pretty decent idea actually

[thin mantle]

Honestly it shouldn't knock or stagger anything above half the carnos weight...but yes

[alpine plover]

Though what if it could possibly be used as a brawling tool? Essentially in Teno matchups

[dawn falcon]

stagger would also be included with a CC rework but yeah

[thin mantle]

Yeah if it's useful in CCing animals of comparable size it'd be a bit busted

[dawn falcon]

Ya see. That’s where we draw a line, cause a lot of this game has flaws.
CC is one of them

Ideally I’d also prioritize tenos tailslam over carnos “headswing”

Just generally anything where tenos actually pulling its weight

[thin mantle]

yeah tbh...I don't have a problem with knockdowns existing but they should NEVER be capable of being used aggressively...

[dawn falcon]

I could see the tailslam prioritizing over the headswing, the headswing over the kick.. etc etc

[thin mantle]

Defensive stuns only pls

[thin mantle]

I don't understand why swing would prioritize over either

[dawn falcon]

I guess that’s fair

[thin mantle]

Like...it's a forward mounted stun capable attack on the fastest animal in game...that also happens to be a large and powerful creature despite it..

[dawn falcon]

But onto the topic of CCing, I wish it was for defense yeah, with the occasional high risk ability that deals stronger forms of CC, which charge is.. not at all

Right now it’s literally low risk/high reward lol

[thin mantle]

No risk all reward

The only fail state is you missing somehow and losing stam

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/arnold-schwarzenegger-thats-better-better-ooh-gif-4890836

[thin mantle]

Pachy is the only acception

[fresh laurel]

can someone explain why omni has to deal with more buck destroying stam?

I dont think that was really needed (unless im missing an animal that had it downright bad)

[thin mantle]

That's not what omni needed but at least it mitigates how oppressive it is...somewhat

[golden coral]

Because if bucking is supposed to be a counter, it has to be a proper one, and worth using. Prior buck was useless more often than not, when it should be "this thing is bucking, get off immediately". Especially with omnis magnet pounce not requiring any aim or anything to use.

[fresh laurel]

but it was basically already like that, what animal buck was taking too long to get omni off?

Omni did already get most of its stamina destroyed by bucking, no?

[thin mantle]

It was about the duration mostly...4-5 seconds for a damage phase that prevents the target from attacking is a LONG time in combat

Plus the amount of bleed that could be stacked in that time was/is pretty massive

Omni needs a pounce rework on a basal level so that it needs to be aimed to be successful but this is the next best thing

[golden coral]

All of them, except maybe pachy? From what I recall, bucking wasn't really good at all, and only really to be used if you couldn't use terrain. Which is not how I think it should be at least.

[fresh laurel]

they increased omni endlag on miss
reduced the dmg per tick
now made bucking all around a lot more punishing
also said 4-5 seconds is you removing the target from you, which maybe if a pack exploits, then sure
and terrain should be a key asset to you for any matchup

[alpine plover]

I think bucking needs a rework, for the most part really

[golden coral]

No, terrain should not be used the way it was. I'm sorry but how terrain was used vs omnis was dumb.

[alpine plover]

After all it's just one button press to counter

[fresh laurel]

how?
that should be a key part of a omni matchup, terrain advantage

[thin mantle]

All of these nerfs are warranted...omni was monstrously strong...as much as I hate bucking as a counter....

[golden coral]

Yes, it really does. But I'll take bucking now being a proper counter at least, even if the pounce/buck interaction is dumb othewise. Also omnis should need to aim their pounce.

[golden coral]

Just no. I'm sorry but if you think terrain should be used to counter a mechanic, then that's just bad design. Terrain should be used to counter numbers, not mechanics. You should not have to use a tree or cliff to counter pounce as a mechanic, that does not make for fun ore engaging combat.

[fresh laurel]

I mean, im not sure how needed was omni pounce dmg ticks nerf was needed but i assume packs would stack said dmg a lot so idk
but I do feel bucking could have gotten a different approach to its buff

[golden coral]

Now at least, you can "fight", and engage back and forth, not just stand next to cliff and wait for the omni to get bored.

[thin mantle]

I wouldn't have changed it's damage per tick but without fundamental reworks of pounce's ease of use, so in the current state it's warranted

[fresh laurel]

if someone has a terrain advantage, it would make you rethink how you would approach said person as a omni
I dont see it as a major game design flaw

[golden coral]

In general, you should not need terrain to counter a mechanic, it does not lead to engaging combat. All you get is "stand next to tree" or "just die".

[alpine plover]

I always get flak for this, but bucking should work as a more intuitive balance "tail riding" like in legacy
Using jerks, turns, and angle to thwart off the aggressor.

[golden coral]

It's a major flaw because it leads to a very on/off engagement. If I'm in the open, I die, if I'm next to tree/cliff, I'm invincible. More or less.

Same with deino lunge.

[fresh laurel]

one of yall can join scope testing server?, I wanna test bucking more rq

[alpine plover]

Send me the inv

[golden coral]

It has the same isse, the lack of mechanical counters means you're better off not interacting at all with it.

[golden coral]

I would but I'm home for the holidays and my net here kind of does what it wants xD

[fresh laurel]

I mean, you could just join
I got admin perm to grow you and such

[alpine plover]

kk

[golden coral]

But I can try I guess. Just no promises on peformance xD

[fresh laurel]

all hope isnt lost when someone is by a tree for omni

[alpine plover]

in

[fresh laurel]

just skews your chances yea

[golden coral]

Which makes it even worse as a counter then, because then you have no actual counter to the omni.

All the more reason to make bucking properly useful.

[fresh laurel]

I mean, if you are going to balance pounce and the other systems that are related to it
should always consider how much terrain will impact with it too imo

[thin mantle]

Yes...but it shouldn't be the primary counter to the mechanic

[golden coral]

Yes and no, the base has to be without terrain. Just like the base is 1v1, not group combat.

Do you have to take groups into account, yes, but you don't start balance there. Same with a mechanic.

[thin mantle]

Especially since the existence of convenient terrain is one of the least skill expressive counters that exist

[fresh laurel]

which it isnt 🤷‍♂️

[thin mantle]

It used to be

[golden coral]

It was. Because bucking was terrible.

[thin mantle]

Actually it still is...you can't punish the utahs post dismount unless you have something to press them against...

The only thing that can is carno

[golden coral]

That's kind of why bucking got improved. Because you were better off, 90% of the time, not bucking. Just go to tree or better yet, cliff.

[fresh laurel]

in the server?

[golden coral]

Let omni pounce, turn, let them die on dismount.

[alpine plover]

Yes

[alpine plover]

You can change directions from the dismount, which is how Omi's been countering Stegos

[fresh laurel]

that isnt even a garanteed chance of surviving dismount pretty sure

[thin mantle]

If you facial pounce the stego literally cannot kill the omni on pounce or dismount ironically...it's a guaranteed duo

[fresh laurel]

stego can still hit you

[alpine plover]

Depends on the camera angle, if you dismount towards the Stego face

[thin mantle]

Good...since stego is like...the only animal in the game that'll ever be able to do that...

[alpine plover]

You can always safely dismount, countering Stego

[fresh laurel]

probably because of how it works in itself

[thin mantle]

Exactly....if you dismount towards the stego's face you can't be hit...if you pounce at the stegos face you can't be hit...guaranteed duo

[golden coral]

Yes I know, but I did say next to cliff, so no matter the change, you die to fall damage :p

[fresh laurel]

so um @alpine plover

[thin mantle]

Yes and that's good...I don't want to balance dismount around that because it's literally the ONLY animal that has that advantage...

[golden coral]

My point was more so that if bucking isn't good, then there's no point in using it. Especially since you lose stam when omni is pouncing you if you just move.

[alpine plover]

coming, logged out for some reason

[fresh laurel]

I mean, I never said anything is bad about it so...

[alpine plover]

in

[thin mantle]

Oh I know...just reaffirming

[fresh laurel]

yup teno destroys the stamina

[alpine plover]

how much seconds was that

[fresh laurel]

not even a full 2 seconds

ok so stego has it slower

[alpine plover]

Okay, so it's Teno specific then

[fresh laurel]

pachy is the same right?

it already destroyed omni stam so...

[alpine plover]

What about Carno?

[golden coral]

Carno and teno might be similar from what I've seen. How long was stego then?

[fresh laurel]

lemme off you rq

[fresh laurel]

about 3?

[alpine plover]

Damn

And I didnt even lost 2% of stam as Stego, burning all of yours down

[thin mantle]

Well that's good

[fresh laurel]

carno is around teno

[alpine plover]

I see, wanna test sprint blood times now then?

See how much blood I can lose

[fresh laurel]

how long do u want me to pounce?

[alpine plover]

Full pounce

I'll sprint until I'm empty

[golden coral]

Hmm. Alright.

[fresh laurel]

I dunno, seems a bit much sheesh

considering omni is also doing less dmg

[thin mantle]

Nah, that's enough

[fresh laurel]

or at least thats what it says I think

[alpine plover]

Okay, a full pounce, plus me sprinting until im empty on stam

Leaves me at a 30% blood pool

I start healing from there

[fresh laurel]

and considering a carno wouldnt wanna run like a crack head...

[thin mantle]

Well now they have to since their standing turn is so awful

Like if you're not running as a carno during combat you're not fighting rn

[fresh laurel]

they would go stationary or into a walk, once in a while pretty sure

[alpine plover]

Idk, I think buck in overtuned, who's the other guy
I wanna battle sim it with 2 raptors

[thin mantle]

Nah, tried that against a pack...didn't go well..so I charged in and out and they couldn't do anything about it

Seemed to work quite well

[alpine plover]

heal, then 3 call to start

[fresh laurel]

then the matchup seems fair, carno aint good with such a status effect due to its own faults

[alpine plover]

im not healed yet

[thin mantle]

Mhm....but the only problem is that it's fairness is derived entirely because of carno's charge being absurdly OP rn

that needs addressing regardless

[fresh laurel]

indeed

[golden coral]

As what?

[thin mantle]

carno

So 60 seconds of runtime I'd assume

[alpine plover]

Only 50% blood loss

After several bites and pounces

And losing all my stam

[fresh laurel]

if only my teammate didnt get a weird collision thing from what I saw

[fresh laurel]

I bit you 3 or 2 times, not sure on the other utah

[alpine plover]

We can test again, though buck does seem strangely too strong, despite your great plays

[fresh laurel]

I think had I played it more safe, i could have done better maybe

[alpine plover]

Wanna go the other way around?

[fresh laurel]

im not good at carno so...

[alpine plover]

It's all good then, I've got practice on Carno

[fresh laurel]

then alr

may be a 1v1 at this rate

@alpine plover Is face pounce gone?

[alpine plover]

Test it

[fresh laurel]

I kinda just stopped at your body lmao

nope

@alpine plover just its a new pounce bug, nice!

@golden coral @thin mantle

new pounce bug

[thin mantle]

Oh joy

Why can’t it just be a balanced functional mechanic

[fresh laurel]

cus, no

[thin mantle]

[alpine plover]

Let's test another carno battle

[fresh laurel]

im asking warden to go utah with me

[alpine plover]

I'll switch to raptor

Oh wait nvm then, I got carno

[fresh laurel]

oh, you stay carno

[alpine plover]

heal, and then we can go

[thin mantle]

Is the new dismount animation functionally different or is it just aesthetics?

[golden coral]

What happens?

[fresh laurel]

utah gets noped by the collision

[golden coral]

That tells me very little. Please describe it better :p

[fresh laurel]

imagine primal rage saurin flesh rip move

[fresh laurel]

you pounce, and stop at the collision part of a dino

[thin mantle]

I don’t even know what that is

[golden coral]

Much better, thank you!

[thin mantle]

Anyways good luck with the testing tonight…I need sleep

[fresh laurel]

like, the legs

[golden coral]

Is the dismount distance any better/worse?

[fresh laurel]

seems fine

[thin mantle]

Oh ok so it’s just the animation?

[alpine plover]

dc'd hold up

[fresh laurel]

seems so

[thin mantle]

Neat! Thanks for letting me know

[fresh laurel]

np

anyways, considering you just destroy omnis stam like that at like no cost is a bit weird to me

[golden coral]

There should be a cost for the one bucking too, no? I don't recall bucking not costing stam at all.

[fresh laurel]

if you want it to not toll the bucker stam, like it taking lets say, 2%
make it not destroy omni not as fast

[thin mantle]

I don’t mind on teno…it’s a bit odd on Carno…tho only cuz Carno is busted

[fresh laurel]

Not much

ill test again and ask for the percent loss

[thin mantle]

Carno can also avoid a pounce whereas teno…sorta can’t unless they jump from VERY far off

[fresh laurel]

@alpine plover we gonna see how much bucking takes for you in order to destroy me

[alpine plover]

Bucking doesn't cost little to nothing

kk

[fresh laurel]

teno already has some great cc to call it ends for utah

aka, one mess up basically and deadtah

I hate saying omni, screw it
its utah

[thin mantle]

Which is honestly difficult to do, you can’t miss a pounce on a slower moving target unless you’re just….bad

[fresh laurel]

If the reward for landing your cc is a instant death on utah, kinda great

[keen plover]

It isn't insta death on utah

[thin mantle]

Well one, it isn’t, and two, landing those rear mounted CC attacks isn’t easy when the Omni can pounce from any angle

[fresh laurel]

2 kicks does secure the kill with the cc?

[alpine plover]

Insta death or immediate out of commission

[keen plover]

It takes 3 body shots to kill a raptor with kick damage. 2 to the head. 1 to head + body

Raptors have an actual chance of escaping now

[fresh laurel]

go teno rq

how many kicks can ya land on me before cc ends

[alpine plover]

here

I'll start with kicks, then tail slams
Then a kick, tail
Then a tail, kick

[keen plover]

I feel like there can be factors *. If you know where the raptor will land since it's directly behind you in a test. Can the same be done in game accurately

[golden coral]

Omni. Please refer to the critter accordingly! :p

[fresh laurel]

sorry but, its basically a gg if omni is hit

[keen plover]

Either way, 3 body hits to kill a raptor now

[fresh laurel]

[keen plover]

Which should be 2

[fresh laurel]

teno can easily angle itself to hit omni head to kill in 2 hits

[thin mantle]

Only if the combo is unhindered….plus it’s not at all easy to do comparatively…

[alpine plover]

I can do it easy, that's how I cleave through raptor packs

[fresh laurel]

I mean, in actual combat depends if utahs can stop a determined teno from going for the kill

which I doubt most of the time

[alpine plover]

Now with buck, I can terrorize raptors as Teno like in previous updates

[thin mantle]

Depends if the Utahs are actually baiting or not

[keen plover]

But pachy terrorises you now so it's honestly just sad

[fresh laurel]

the point is, if utah gets hit
teno has enough time to go for the kill
not much debate there

[alpine plover]

True, can't argue that

[fresh laurel]

I would like to test utah vs pachy now

[thin mantle]

No there’s no debate there…but I’ve never been arguing that

[keen plover]

Do pachy v teno 😄

See a fun and thrilling fight

[golden coral]

Pachy vs omni should be good for the pachy. Pachy vs teno means teno just dies :p

[keen plover]

1 v 1

[alpine plover]

I'll go pachy

[fresh laurel]

yet you had a issue with me saying its basically lights out if teno lands a cc on utah, smh

[fresh laurel]

I go utah or give in to the bird?

[alpine plover]

It actually is insta death if Teno lands even one CC

There's so much time to punish

[thin mantle]

No, I had an issue with that being an argument against making pounce harder to land…I didn’t disagree on the points validity just it’s relevance

[fresh laurel]

a kick to the head, omni is screwed

[alpine plover]

Or even a tail slam on the body

Pretty much dead

[fresh laurel]

I brought up teno cc as a thing it has against utah compared to carno

really dont get why there was a debate on this

anyways, doesnt matter anymore
@alpine plover gonna go utah

[alpine plover]

Oki ill go Utah then

[golden coral]

Can you guys test out if the pounce works in all angles or if there's some sense to the collision thing you mentioned earlier?

[fresh laurel]

wait no, you stay pachy lol

[alpine plover]

One thing at a time

[alpine plover]

aight, kill me

[fresh laurel]

tested that earlier, its a bug probably

[thin mantle]

Mhm, in response to how Omni’s pounce is indeed VERY easy to use, implicating some sort of counterpoint…I never disagreed with what you said in isolation

[fresh laurel]

COMPYS HIT YOU? YO

[golden coral]

Yes, compies will fight apparently :p

Beware as juvie xD

[fresh laurel]

NAH A UTAH?

[thin mantle]

They attack sub carnos bizarrely enough

[fresh laurel]

THIS IS GOD OF WAR 3 LEVELS OF CRAZY

[golden coral]

I think they might even go for adult stegos, or maybe that was some other AI

[alpine plover]

Kratos vs Cronos irl

[golden coral]

How does the pounce recovery feel?

[thin mantle]

Probably longer than instant like last time

[fresh laurel]

LMAFO, I GOT DESTROYED BY PACHY

That new hit detection sheesh

[thin mantle]

Yep….

[alpine plover]

Pachy clears

Still have lots of stam left

[fresh laurel]

Does pachy really need that bonus buck stam killing still?

[thin mantle]

That’s always been in the game…or at least the matchup dynamic…teno literally has no way to survive it

[alpine plover]

Bro, Pachy is Utah kryptonite

[thin mantle]

Oh you were a Utah XD

[fresh laurel]

hard to tell
when pachy was functioning well, utah was fodder

[alpine plover]

Op bucking
Hard shots, and great alt attack

[golden coral]

I don't think it had any. Only bleed res is the new thing.

[thin mantle]

Nonono I thought you were a teno lol

[fresh laurel]

no, its apparently a better bucker

[alpine plover]

Let's try again

[golden coral]

Based on?

[alpine plover]

Play more slowly if you can

Burn me up

[thin mantle]

Pachy has always had a better buck

[fresh laurel]

isnt that what pachy is known for?
having better buck than average lol

[thin mantle]

Not gratuitously but it is better

[golden coral]

True, I thought you meant it got a buff in this update :p

[alpine plover]

need to heal

[golden coral]

But I think pachy buck should be the same as before the update.

[keen plover]

Pachy has bleed res

• Body frac deals 3x stamina cost
• 4 shots omni
• Can insta buck a raptor essentially.
  Good luck fighting it

[frail bobcat]

did it get faster?

[thin mantle]

Deletes teno…hard counters Carno now that hit detection functions

Soon Pachy will be soloing stegos!

[golden coral]

I don't think so? Teno, stego, omni, carno, dryo got better buck.

[thin mantle]

Lol…dryo

[golden coral]

Pachy got some bleed res, which was sorely needed.

[frail bobcat]

the buck is a bit too much rn

[alpine plover]

YooOOOOOOOOO

[thin mantle]

Oh that’s another thing you should try…one of you go dryo….try desperately to escape literally anything

[fresh laurel]

Good news everyone, UTAH CANNOT 1V1 PACHY unless you are a godly utah

[golden coral]

Dryo life is pain and misery xD

[thin mantle]

You can’t

[alpine plover]

Pachy's charged headbutt is soooooooooooooooo good

So much range and hits so hard

[golden coral]

Does that mean pachy is actually the anti-omni it was supposed to be? xD

[keen plover]

What haven't you guys tested?

[fresh laurel]

lets see, pachy now has all the tools and dmg to bully utah, and when utah does land the pounce
it wont last long enough to stack noticable bleed

so...

[alpine plover]

Apparently
Even when I gave the Raptor an intial pounce for ambush advantage scenario

[fresh laurel]

I would test 2 utahs vs one pachy tbh

[thin mantle]

Seems about right…we just need Dino’s actually designed to be prey items for Omni

Cuz we just…really don’t have any

[fresh laurel]

I didnt have the stamina to back myself up

You really kept on me

[alpine plover]

Only up to 30% blood pool stam loss

[fresh laurel]

I kept you running a lot and you missed a lot so.. thats good

[keen plover]

Aight

[golden coral]

I don't know, I think it might be fine. I'd much rather have bucking be a proper counter to pouncing, than just telling someone to go stand at a tree or cliff. Makes for more engagement if you can use mechanic vs mechanic, and the prior bucking was more so a death sentence for the user than the omni.

[fresh laurel]

wanna go utah against nacen pachy?

[keen plover]

ye

[alpine plover]

Kk

[thin mantle]

Both are awful…ones just less awful

[alpine plover]

Heal me up and we can throw down

[fresh laurel]

it already is combined with terrain, so I mean
adjusting is needed with bucking imo

[golden coral]

Well, we disagree on if terrain should be counted or not, so there is that :p

[keen plover]

Then we should do some magical teno v pachy matchup 🥰

[fresh laurel]

terrain is always gonna be an issue, so we should balance with it in mind

[thin mantle]

I too love lagging the server with teno corpses

[golden coral]

I explained why that isn't ideal, it's the same as with groups, or just look at deino.

Deino is the perfect example of how bad it becomes when terrain is the main factor deciding a matchup.

[thin mantle]

I too love uncounterably deleting other dinos or being entirely useless

[keen plover]

You die @fresh laurel?

[fresh laurel]

mate, why should buff heavily another pounce counter mechanic while leaving another big noticable one
I feel we should balance with it in mind regardless

[fresh laurel]

Yea

[keen plover]

gg then

I had head frac + no hp

[thin mantle]

I think the better solution is to mitigate how effective terrain is to some degree so that the mechanics can be the primary factor…more skill expression that way

[alpine plover]

Pachy does really well
Even in a 2v1 scenario

[golden coral]

Because terrain isn't a pounce counter, any more than "drink at shallows" is a deino counter. It's a way to not engage with the critter at all, because engaging has no proper counter.

[fresh laurel]

pachy bodies 2 utahs, thats ok ig

[alpine plover]

Battle tested
Pachy is an omni counter

[keen plover]

Also didn't account for how well it can fight off more via hills and stuff

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/forever-for-the-first-time-in-forever-frozen-anna-gif-7539283

[fresh laurel]

you wont stop hills from making certain death spots for dismount, heck theres still tree grazing pouncers

[keen plover]

@fresh laurel go teno?

[alpine plover]

Stay on hill or higher terrain, Pachy can even go 3v1 Omin's

[fresh laurel]

I dont think thats the right example to use for utah
drinking at shallows vs use terrain to actually cause utah to get into a spot you can get a kill with...

[alpine plover]

I can go Teno if neccesary

[fresh laurel]

@alpine plover you guys test pachy vs teno, ima watch

[alpine plover]

Kk

[keen plover]

aight. Want to see the teno v pachy match up

[alpine plover]

Sounds good

[thin mantle]

Then make it so you can dismount down to the ground next to the animal so you’re not always leaping faithfully away…and don’t try to hunt animals with flank oriented attacks

[keen plover]

You stay pachy

[fresh laurel]

Until terrain pounce counter is mitigated, I dont think bucking should receive major buffs
just shrimple like that

[golden coral]

I think it works quite well, it's far more similar than not, since terrain use is basically "make the omni be unable dismount successfully", vs "make the deino unable to lunge successfully".

[keen plover]

@alpine plover jump

[fresh laurel]

tbf, thats just avoiding the deino alltogether
doesnt make sense to me lol

[thin mantle]

I’d prefer pounce to be underwhelming than oppressive considering Omni is fast…so I don’t mind

[golden coral]

So you'd rather see stegos and tenos and carnos just stand next to a cliff the moment they see a single omni because there's no other proper counter? I don't know, that does not seem fun or engaging to me.

[thin mantle]

It’s also deinos only functioning counter….

[keen plover]

hmmm. I want to test an ambush situation. @alpine plover Run up and hit me

[golden coral]

Yes, and that's the same thing you do with terrain vs omni, its avoiding the omni pouncing you, because it dies if it does.

[keen plover]

Then go from there

[alpine plover]

Sorry, was testing an old combo if it still worked

[fresh laurel]

A pack of utahs should be rewarded with landing a succeful pounce, making the risk be too high is eh...

[keen plover]

Ah gotcha. You won't need to go that far with current teno

[alpine plover]

Before you can double tap in a previous update

[golden coral]

You don't use terrain vs pounce to "fight", you use it to just negate the pounce entirely, because it's the only way to negate pounce.

[keen plover]

Just get body fracture and all my attacks cost 3x

[golden coral]

I mean, they still are. They just need to repeat pounces more now. You're just making them have to be more at risk because they need more pounces.

[fresh laurel]

thats not the same purely due to you actively being confronted by said omni

[golden coral]

It's exactly the same, it has nothing to do with being confronted or not, that is irrelevant.

The point is that you're using terrain in the same way, for the same reason and purpose. Because you have no proper mechanical counter to someone elses mechanic.

[frail bobcat]

so how is omni now? my update still hasnt downloaded

[fresh laurel]

ima sum up my complaint cus man this is getting nowhere

omni gotten nerfs to pounce itself, and buckers got buffs to their buck
now combined with terrain
the risk/cons seem to out weigh the reward
thats just how I feel mate

[thin mantle]

Nah, the mechanic doesn’t deserve to be rewarding in its current state, it has too many functionality issues to justify becoming more relevant…those fixes need to be implemented first before it gets buffed back into relevance…because the only animal that doesn’t have engagement authority on land with Omni is Carno…

[keen plover]

Pack focused. Can't punch up as well solo

[frail bobcat]

and the bucking?

[fresh laurel]

pachy seems to body 2 omnis solo
may need more testing

carno and teno erases omni stam
stego seems same tbh

[frail bobcat]

2 omnis solo? jesus

[alpine plover]

Tap hitting doesn't seem to stun Teno's anymore, looks like I'll have to charge with pachy

[keen plover]

That was removed in update 5

[fresh laurel]

yea that hit detection change is crazy lol

[golden coral]

Well, notes said stego got a buff on bucking too, but no idea if that's true according to testing. Sonic says it seems the same so not sure.

[fresh laurel]

now if omni does land a pounce, wont be very rewarding due to how much pachy can keep up the pressure now

[fresh laurel]

doesnt seem as major compared to teno and carno, thats for sure

[fresh laurel]

The only issue I saw was collision one, hopefully a shrimple fix

Most of the time I was landing pounce

though na1, it happened a lot so maybe something is causing it...

[thin mantle]

Oh not bugs, just pounces complete lack of difficulty in landing

[keen plover]

@fresh laurel can you go pachy as well now?

[golden coral]

Somewhat strange, you'd think the larger critter might be better at bucking, as opposed to the ones where omni is closer in weight xD

[fresh laurel]

ok

[alpine plover]

Teno doesn't seem so bad against Pachy
As long as you can finish the fight early

[golden coral]

Could be that they are attempting to do something with that to make pounce require aim

[keen plover]

Yeah. No body frac yet for me

[fresh laurel]

probably because stego is hella tanky and needs some sort of threat being a omni pack

[golden coral]

Though that could just be me hoping pounce gets some proper rework xD

[keen plover]

2 v 1 should be interesting

[frail bobcat]

I think the meta for omni will be more but shorter pounces now

[thin mantle]

Did you know deino got buffed? Soloing it is pretty easy now

[golden coral]

True, though deinos are more scary now too!

[fresh laurel]

it needs more grab areas, like head and etc

[golden coral]

If this happens, I think that might be a great change for the matchups in general with omni vs things.

[fresh laurel]

what buffs, im scared

[golden coral]

I firmly believe pounce should only work on the flanks, and thus if you hit head/tail you just get stunned, like the miss recovery thing.

[frail bobcat]

I will try it, get a short pounce in and jump off before they can buck

[thin mantle]

Lunge deals much higher damage than before, it affords a major advantage when opening an engagement to the point where you can just spam lmb and win if the stego doesn’t run…if you have a second deino it can’t even do that

[golden coral]

Please do. I just hope this might mean more back and forth with the omnis vs target, which I think is good. Also might encourage people to fight in the open more, instead of just standing next to a tree until the omnis give up or starve xD

Also yes, lunge + altbite/bite a stego might be really good for deino now. And if you got a friend, even better, but that's pretty much how it's meant to be. Two deinos = dead solo stego.

[frail bobcat]

btw, to the eu people. Poutinne just opened his EU practice server, so we dont have to practice on scope now

[thin mantle]

Ehh…only if both never stop attacking

I don’t like fixed outcome matchups

[alpine plover]

Okay damn, 2v1 Pachy v Teno
Teno is doomed

[golden coral]

Well yes, but why would they stop attacking?

[keen plover]

And to nobodys surprise, 2 pachys absolutely stomp a teno

[thin mantle]

Because they wanna live

[golden coral]

I thought pachies could solo a teno to be honest xD

[fresh laurel]

deino killing stego more now seems fair considering stego could just leave the water source and survive

[alpine plover]

So easy, Pachy's are busted in teams

[keen plover]

They can tbf

[golden coral]

What?

[keen plover]

Need that body frac early

If you ambush a teno and get a body frac, you literally win

[thin mantle]

If a stego is facing two deinos, it needs to stop attacking and run

[fresh laurel]

as long as it isnt too hard to land for the reward you are getting

[golden coral]

I meant more so, if its facing two deinos, it just dies. The lunge + stun from one and the free bites from the other should be enough to overpower it.

[fresh laurel]

didnt they nerf impact pounce heavily, so I mean

[golden coral]

I think it'd be fine, but then I've never really had any issue with landing pounces so there is that.

[thin mantle]

Yeah that shouldn’t be the case that’s dumb af

[golden coral]

I don't know, I heard tap pouncing does damage now.

So you can no longer playfight with other omnis

Or well, you can but, more risk to it xD

[keen plover]

Server drop?

[frail bobcat]

they increased the latch damage per tick

so pounce is stronger now

[fresh laurel]

thought it was decreased

if thats the case, then AWESOME

[frail bobcat]

HOLY JESUS, POUNCE IS STRONGER NOW

[keen plover]

Need to head to bed then. Take care guys, The tests were interesting

[thin mantle]

Same

[golden coral]

Yeah. Maybe as compensation for the increased bucking then. Though its a little bit of a shame on the playfighting :p

[fresh laurel]

sleep is for the weak

[keen plover]

Dear lord

[fresh laurel]

add a play fight mechanic gg

[frail bobcat]

I pray for the combat change between u6 and 6.5

[alpine plover]

I lagged out

[golden coral]

Yes, that'd honestly be nice.

[alpine plover]

I return

[golden coral]

Same, though we might have different ideas of what makes good balance :D

[fresh laurel]

ima reread balance stuff, maybe I skimmed through it lol

[frail bobcat]

yes

[fresh laurel]

uh

hm

[frail bobcat]

but I am actually fine with the buck change now if pounce is stronger

[golden coral]

Huh? Then why did things die on tap pouncing? Maybe that was a bug then

Or maybe it just does damage again

[fresh laurel]

would have specified

[frail bobcat]

maybe they readded it without putting it under omni patch notes

imma check the "added" section real quick

[golden coral]

I guess? But earlier, you could tap pounce and do no damage right?

[fresh laurel]

I doubt tbh, only testing can be sure

[alpine plover]

Then we test

[fresh laurel]

if omni pounce latch ticks were nerfed, I think it calls for a buff somewhere

buffing omni is scary so, h

[golden coral]

I think the issue with omni is the ease of the pounce. As long as you can just pounce wherever and magnetically get on, safe and sound, it's hard to make it good but risky

[frail bobcat]

it got a great nerf, so its kinda fair

[fresh laurel]

I have idea, just give omni more stam regen
gg
if its spending tons of stam, it should regain it pretty fast idk

[golden coral]

Even with a much more powerful buck, you still get off safely and can get away

[fresh laurel]

with destroyed stamina

[frail bobcat]

now you have to time how long you are at a prey item at least

[golden coral]

To be fair, most of the things you should hunt arent going to run you down

[fresh laurel]

and depending on the animal you were hunting. you may die from that or live

[frail bobcat]

the meta now is to get off before they buck or as soon as they start bucking

[fresh laurel]

pachy could attempt it from what I have seen now
carno probably, but idk
teno possibly but depends

[golden coral]

Pachy is kind of anti-omni by design, or so it's been kind of said. And then there's carno, which well, it's the small game hunter, the thing you should be running from, not at. And then there's the stego, that has the best antiflank defense in the game.

[frail bobcat]

omni has funny matchups rn

[golden coral]

Teno might be a decent choice. But what you guys need are things like maia, or better yet, para, and trike.

[fresh laurel]

and considering how little cons you get for bucking... I think omni needs a compensation tbh

[fresh laurel]

those arent in, not sure if we should really count them yet

lets not balance omni pack limit around it hunting real apexes lol

[golden coral]

I know, I'm talking in terms of what would make good prey, and why it's so hard to make pounce good when the roster consists of things you're not really meant to be good vs and so on.

"real apexes"? :p

[fresh laurel]

yea thats right

[golden coral]

I did mention maia and para xD

And well, stego and deino are apexes, so. Deino better now with more powerful lunge at that.

[fresh laurel]

monsters bro, and para confirmed to be big boi

[frail bobcat]

3 of 4 prey items counter it

[fresh laurel]

anyways, since omni good "prey" items arent ingame yet, we should balance its current matchups
its shrimple

[alpine plover]

It boils down back to Buck and Pounce rework really

[fresh laurel]

make both mechanics require more work from each other tbh

[thin mantle]

Pounce needs to be hard to use, buck needs to have a push and pull instead of a button press…neither should be particularly easy

[fresh laurel]

make bucking require E spam

[golden coral]

Deinio = untouchable. Stego = almost untouchable. Carno = the designated small game hunter that should be the one hunting omnis down. Pachy = been said to be sort of anti-omni. Teno = decent choice but it's a fighter so there's danger. Roster is weird!

[fresh laurel]

but if we make it too hard, the reward has to be very worth it

[golden coral]

I guess dryos are good hunting now though!

[frail bobcat]

roster is weird

[golden coral]

I mean, stego is an apex, as is deino. And while para is big, I don't think we're getting massive para because well, we have shant as well :p

[fresh laurel]

imagine having to go through a pretty tougher process just to stack some bleed while risking a stamina death to yourself. I just hope theres a good way on how to go about it

[alpine plover]

Pounce shouldn't be insanely hard to land nor should it be so punishing to miss
It should require continuous effort to apply once landed though
As well as for Buck, temporarily stopping application of pounce or throwing off a pursuer should require effort as well, not just stam

[thin mantle]

Ehh…not really..we need to remember Omni is a very small animal that requires very little investment to reach its maximum power…the argument that it simply shouldn’t be that strong given it has THE BEST punch up ability the game will ever have can totally be made

[golden coral]

Yes. Brace/buck mechanic or something please.

Saurian balance mechanic, well, maybe not that but something you know.

[fresh laurel]

out of all of omni balance changes, I really am fine with the pounce miss endlag

[frail bobcat]

I did a suggestion on that actually

[fresh laurel]

the stam usage for bucking is so low thats its not even funny to me

[alpine plover]

It's actually crazy low which was weird

[fresh laurel]

"I erased all of your stam at the cost of 2% of mine"

[golden coral]

Just so. Though I do think it should require aiming at the flanks to land successfully. And as long as there's a "downtime" on miss so you can't spam it, it's fine. (just make it more stam drain rather than a "stun", like if you jump too much too often or so).

I think part of the reason the bucking dont cost much is because of all the other stam usage

Much as I agree that bucking should be costly, the issue there is that teno, stego, and pachy as well to lesser degree, all require stam to be combat viable at all

[fresh laurel]

the same could be said for omni lol

[frail bobcat]

but like no stam cost for all their stam, does not seem fair

[golden coral]

Not quite, your normal bite is perfectly decent.

Same with carno. You can bite and fight normally quite well.

[alpine plover]

That's not really comparable

[golden coral]

Unlike the herbis who's basic attack is, well,.... not really much to use.

[fresh laurel]

how will you compare that

[alpine plover]

Considering angles and positioning to apply the bite requires movement = stam

[golden coral]

So does countering that

So point negated

[alpine plover]

If I ran up to a Teno with little stam, I'll get face kicked

[golden coral]

The defender needs to move about as well, so it's the same on both sides

[alpine plover]

Not really

[fresh laurel]

herbis (who usually are considered for omni matchups) have cc and more options, or just backed up by pure stats in stego case
so to say, your bite is fine (one that is risky as all hell to land) is weird

[golden coral]

@fresh laurel@alpine ploverAssuming both sides only use basic attacks and stam for movement, carnis win

[thin mantle]

Not really, even at 10% stam you have about 11 seconds of sprint time…which in a pack hunt is plenty

[golden coral]

My point is that carnis have basic attacks that are combat viable, herbis do not

Deino wins over stego if they both only use stam for movement and so on. Omni wins over pachy. Carno wins over teno.

So yes, herbis do need more stam to be viable, than carnis do

[fresh laurel]

you said bucking takes such little stam due to bucker other stam costing variables
which the same could be said for omni then
hell, that doesnt explain carno bucking power considering its main stamina usage is sprinting and charging

[golden coral]

I said it might be a reason, that because a teno or stego out of stam is dead, they do require that stam to fight

[frail bobcat]

but the maybe 5 percent stam to take all of theirs still isnt fair

[fresh laurel]

yet herbis have special attacks that are very combat viable, usually

[golden coral]

An omni out of stam can still bite and defend itself

[thin mantle]

I think it’d be fine if Carno had a significantly worse buck stam drain…

[fresh laurel]

450 hp:

[golden coral]

Which all costs a lot of stam, which was my point.

[frail bobcat]

a omni out of stam is fodder

[golden coral]

Not as much as a pachy out of it is.

[fresh laurel]

how are you using a out of stam omni as an argument

[frail bobcat]

that is true

[thin mantle]

Tbf that’s literally everything

[golden coral]

Which again, was my point.

[alpine plover]

I don't think it would be so bad, if there was actual mechanics for people using buck to do it

It's practically a one press negate button

[golden coral]

HP irrelevant. My point is that carnis have basic attacks that are good. If you and the pachy you're fighting are both out of stam, you can still fight, the pachy can not.

Same goes with carno vs teno, or stego vs deino.

[frail bobcat]

buck is not fun for both parties

[thin mantle]

Buck just isn’t a complex enough mechanic to not favor one side…rn it favors the bucker…

[fresh laurel]

its just dumb that after omni current nerfs combined with terrain (thats a issue rn, whether you like it or not) still has to deal with 90% stam gone in like around 2 seconds while the bucker wastes maybe 2 or 3% of stam

[fresh laurel]

that wouldnt be the case with trike

[golden coral]

Not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp. I'm saying herbis are far more reliant on their stam to be combat viable, than carnis are. Carnis need stam for movement + special abilities, but their basic attacks are capable of killing quite well. Herbis need stam for movement + special abilities + actually useful attacks which means overall they need more stam. Which could be a reason for why bucking does not require much stam, since it would make bucking very bad to use again, especially for teno or stego, since they've then gotten the omni off, only to not be able to fight back.

[thin mantle]

I think the stam cost of buck is borderline irrelevant with how many methods exist to waste a Dino’s stam

[golden coral]

Maybe not, then again, we don't know how basic trike vs basic rex would be. But trike at least could bite pretty well. Not sure it'd bite as well as a rex though, but it does have the frill to help it out :p

[fresh laurel]

yes they are but then you said the bucker has a low stam cost for bucking due to its other stamina uses, when we got other carnis that will rely on bucking, no?

carno being one of them

[golden coral]

Does carno have much higher stam cost on bucking?

[alpine plover]

No

[thin mantle]

(Which btw…it shouldn’t have a low stam cost for that very reason)

[fresh laurel]

it loses little stam, and erases omni stam more

[golden coral]

But you could make an argument that carno should maybe lose more stam, precisely because it can "just" run down and bite the omni.

[thin mantle]

It’s basically the only animal with the ability to do that as well

[golden coral]

Whereas a teno or pachy doing the same, needs to add the stam cost for the attack unless they attempt to only bite.

[fresh laurel]

depends on if omni is good at juking

[golden coral]

No. Not for the point Im making :p

[fresh laurel]

carno charge needs a nerf anyways

[frail bobcat]

this, the turn is insane

[golden coral]

Just remove knockdown on carno :p

[fresh laurel]

nah....

[golden coral]

Make it use the great turn to keep up and bite things.

Pursuit predator, instead of this stupid "ambush knockdown" thing

[fresh laurel]

you should be rewarded for landing the used to hard to land move
now its just op

I say revert it back to update 5, idk

[golden coral]

I just want a good pursuit predator carno. I guess a headswing with limited knockdown could work if you use it as you chase the target.

[thin mantle]

Charge is an awful ability…remove it or rework it fundamentally, both iterations are awful

[frail bobcat]

I love how in every single update, the entire meta gets shifted

[fresh laurel]

wait for rugops, gg
(idk tbh)

[golden coral]

Eh, in prior update, landing a charge on your own was pretty much impossible if the target had any sense of awareness. But at the same time good in groups.

[fresh laurel]

cus each balance change is that big

[golden coral]

I... don't think rugops will do something like that? :p

[alpine plover]

I say revert Utah's pounce stats, with added mechanics
Then introduce Bucking mechanics
Utah is still deadly yet counterable even in numbers

[thin mantle]

Cuz we can’t have small incrementally alterations…

[golden coral]

Because as per usual, everything is changed xD

[frail bobcat]

this

[fresh laurel]

update 5, utah got so many buffs
update 6, a large amounts of nerfs to its style of hunting
update 4... we dont talk about that

[golden coral]

Stego when introduced = dies in one pack pounce before it can even call out for help. :D

[frail bobcat]

I literally dont know why they wont do balance changes between updates

[thin mantle]

That was a time….

Stego was basically fodder on release

[fresh laurel]

should have nerfed omni pounce miss endlag, and buffed bucking A TINY BIT to things that actually needed it

[frail bobcat]

this

[fresh laurel]

I just cant understand this need tbh

[golden coral]

Do you think the endlag is fine now? If I recall, it's just a little bit longer than prior update

[fresh laurel]

its better, im getting punished more now

[golden coral]

Alright, maybe they managed to find a good time there then

[alpine plover]

Add a "latch on" to deal with bucking when pouncing
Then add a "grip on" to reposition on again, if the bucker decides to "throw you off" for a small chunk of stam

[frail bobcat]

carno charge needs a slightly worse turn tho

[fresh laurel]

I have yet to really play a normal server like na1, waiting until christmas for that

[thin mantle]

Ehh…I’d actually prefer to leave its endlag relatively untouched and just MASSIVELY buff the amount of stam lost on pounce so missing takes the Omni out of the fight to regen stam

[thin mantle]

It needs massively worse turning…and removal from the game but that’s a separate issue

[fresh laurel]

I disagree on that, to just be out of the fight for missing your only way of really doing meaningful dmg in a hunt is eh...

[frail bobcat]

carno is just op rn

[golden coral]

Honestly, yes. Remove the endlag, or have it as minimal as possible so it looks good, just add massive stam drain.

[fresh laurel]

omni should get punished for missing, not lose lots of stam for it which would be a much bigger nerf

[thin mantle]

But it’s not…just your only way of dealing damage to targets far larger than you…

[golden coral]

I think the point is more so that you can keep going, less risk of death, but you can't pounce again immediately. You can still play distraction, bite at something, or just trot around until you got stam back.

[fresh laurel]

omni doesnt really have many options of just biting to death

ai ig

dryo and hypi, good luck ig

[golden coral]

Dryo good hunting these days :p

[thin mantle]

Yes…that’s the trade off for having a punch up ability, your capacity against creatures in your own range should be greatly limited

[fresh laurel]

I think people would still complain about a omni missing right in front of them and not being able to punish said omni

[golden coral]

Oh I have no doubt. But this change is more so for the omnis sake I'd say. It allows them to keep a faster pace (something I think Nacen wants), while still making it hard to spam pounces.

[fresh laurel]

wouldnt something like pachy count as a punch up ability, not to kill but...

[golden coral]

It does, and pachy punching up like that is dumb

But it's more so that it staggers/stunlocks

[thin mantle]

Sorta, tho it’s not NEARLY in the same caliber as pounce as far as facilitation

[alpine plover]

I'm still in favour of longer fights, just reward pressure for efficient outcomes

[fresh laurel]

kinda hard to spam pounce brainlessly even now

[thin mantle]

It’s….really not…at least not for me

[golden coral]

I'm with you there, but if I recall correctly, you preferred omni being fast paced, rather than troodon, right? Or was that someone else?

[alpine plover]

Might be someone else
Troodon does seem like slow burn hunts

[thin mantle]

Ive only missed 1 pounce since the update launched…I think

[fresh laurel]

spam right click purely, lets see how many times you land

[thin mantle]

That’s not what I meant

[golden coral]

Huh, nvm me then, we talk so rarely so I'm not sure. But nah, troodon pounce I guess is more so get on, get off, rinse and repeat.

[fresh laurel]

anyways if you want to make omni pounce harder to land while making it much more punishing to miss, doesnt exactly sound like a great mix-

[golden coral]

I don't think troodon is meant to stay on or "pounce" for long, it's more of a tag to inject venom.

[alpine plover]

If currently we are in favour of shorter pounces
Revert the decreased blood tick for pounce then

Little sense to have it drain so quick and then to not reward pressure playstyles

[fresh laurel]

troodon bouta need 10 out of the 100 players in the server to even kill a dryo

[golden coral]

To be fair, "harder to land" is, well, compared to it not being hard at all, not saying much honestly. Also I'm not sure on the punish, I see the stam drain as less risky to the omni so.

[golden coral]

Nah, I can see 3-4 of them take a dryo, maybe even an omni with a few more, about 7-8 or so for a teno or carno, if they can punch that high.

[thin mantle]

I want it to require any amount of conscious thought to land…I’m not asking for that much more difficulty

[fresh laurel]

omni overall needs more stamina for a hunt, for its next pounces, running and etc
now having omni get punished for missing while keeping the same stamina amount is... idk, better to me
and better for the other side

[fresh laurel]

how about after we make sure its bug proof

[thin mantle]

I feel like the easy solution to the stam drain on missing is to simply not miss….which is demonstrably easy

[golden coral]

Alright, that's fair I guess. And if you feel the current recovery is fine, then I'll trust you on that :)

[thin mantle]

Sure

[golden coral]

So, never then ^^

[fresh laurel]

exactly!

[alpine plover]

Idk, balance seems so close yet so far rn

[fresh laurel]

utah seems to be troodon counter
both will be in a pack
utah is hella agile and makes it easier to bite a troodon
utah may have a easier time avoiding troodon too...

[thin mantle]

Maybe we’re moreso encountering how pounce may be fundamentally flawed…it’s an ability so difficult to make more interesting because the way it functions is SOO hostile to the game

[golden coral]

Well yes, I dont imagine a troodon pack takes an omni pack, but a pack of troodon could probably take a solo omni, especially at night.

[alpine plover]

Pachy's in a good spot with Utah encounters
Omni feels right, but wrong in many other places
Carno...
Teno has been doing sorta well

[thin mantle]

Carno and Pachy delete teno so no

[fresh laurel]

I would revert this considering the stamina nerfs
OR
readjust the buck buffs

then I would nerf carno charge

nothing else seems like a glaring issue to me this update tbh

[golden coral]

Pachy stun/stagger is

You can solo carnos

Or so I was told at least

[fresh laurel]

I think carno mercs pachy rn

[golden coral]

Also pachy vs teno is no good

[thin mantle]

With their new turn rates…yeah

[fresh laurel]

teno needs a stun protection of sorts when using its attacks, idk

[golden coral]

If they get the charge, no doubt. But if the pachy gets the break, then the carno is in trouble.

[thin mantle]

Pachy is the only thing that can counter charge….charge is the only reason Carno is good

[alpine plover]

Revert some changes, then we're off better
Also charge might have to go for Carno

[golden coral]

Could let tail slam override things like ram and charge

[fresh laurel]

I thought pachy ram doesnt do enough dmg to merc carno easily

[thin mantle]

It always should’ve…was just such a terrible idea to begin with

[golden coral]

Its more so the continious stuns and the fact that carno can't get away very easily

So you just.. wear it down

[alpine plover]

An "ambush" tool for a plains pursuit predator

[thin mantle]

Well it doesn’t matter too terribly when you’ve halved carnos speed and rendered its stam pool down to 20 seconds

[thin mantle]

I will never get over the sheer comedy that is the existence of charge as an ability

[fresh laurel]

anyways
my opinion for rn is
look back at the bucking buffs
revert omni tick nerf

nerf carno
rebalance pachy or something
change teno vs pachy matchup

and I would say balance is mostly ok

[frail bobcat]

what would you suggest then

[alpine plover]

The alt attack was weird to add as well

[fresh laurel]

(im hinting at me sleeping now)

[alpine plover]

Wouldn't be so bad

[thin mantle]

A massive version of dryo’s new dash with more weight and inertia that enables it to grab animals trying to juke it…it’s also a combat ability that’s nearly useless against Dino’s defending against it…further cementing Carno into a niche favoring faster smaller targets and being unfavorable to larger slower ones…which is literally the opposite of charges current favoritism…

Another solution is a head swing that deals low damage but stuns animals at or under half carnos size

[frail bobcat]

the first one is sick, suggest it

[thin mantle]

I don’t mind it existing…I mind it’s speed

[frail bobcat]

or wait a bit until the update suggestion die down

[thin mantle]

Ok :D
I have at least 8 times since Carno was added but another couldn’t hurt

I’ve always despised charge….pursuit Carno ftw

And with that I go to sleep

[hollow canyon]

Troodon is half the size of Dryo, it could probably solo one or 2v1 it at most since Dryo doesn't exactly have any outstanding offensive capabilities

[alpine plover]

Light footsteps can be heard from too far of a distance, I was sitting on a cliff as a dryo and could hear the pitter patter of juvi deinos on the other side of the river
seems weirdly loud and unfair for babies tryna escape from predators

[stone hinge]

Yeah and then you can't hear loud footsteps lool.

weird

[novel shadow]

i haven’t gotten a solid answer in the general discussion, but are utahs supposed to be getting bucked off instantly? it feels really bad and someone told me that it was part of a new system based on weight

[fresh laurel]

getting bucked off instantly would suck ngl

you land pounce, just instantly your stamina dies

[novel shadow]

it happened to me, i was like 70% grown on a carno, it bucks once and i instantly lost all stam

[fresh laurel]

there should be a little time frame or something

unless small utahs get bucked off even easier

[golden coral]

They do yes, theres a size/weight to it now, so no more juvies taking full time/stam to get off

[fresh laurel]

nice, hopefully juvie utah pouncing other juvies is fair still

[golden coral]

Because well, it taking as long to buck a fresh juvie off as full adult with the same cost stam was silly

[fresh laurel]

[fresh laurel]

juvies could stay on longer

[golden coral]

Yeah, due to juvie extra stam Im guessing

[fresh laurel]

[golden coral]

I mean, its nice to be able to be on the move as juvie, just was a strange thing for pounce/buck xD

[fresh laurel]

now we wait until update 6.5 for balance changes

[golden coral]

6.5 but yes, proper balance pass hopefully. Maybe even settle how the current roster is supposed to interact and so on

[fresh laurel]

wait i said 5.5? LMAO

[wraith relic]

@versed rune sadge, I actually I agreed with you, the turn radius is absolutely absurd

[winter iris]

@ripe spruce I still haven’t played the new update, and I play both Utah and carno so I’m not really a main of one or the other. But saying that Utah was balanced in U5.5 is just laughable tbh

[wraith relic]

When I saw it in the stress test I thought it was a bug

[fresh laurel]

tbf, other playables got nerfed which added to utah base buffing being fixed pounce

[versed rune]

yeah anyone with a brain will realize that it’s clunky and horrendous, but it’s balance feedback reactors so there’s quite a lack in brainpower usage. Par for the course though

[fresh laurel]

well, ow

[wraith relic]

Yeah, they think it makes it more fun, the whole point of carno is it’s really fast with bad turns, bet some carno mains think this is better, really all carno needed in my opinion was better bleed res

[thin mantle]

Better bleed res and a completely new ability….

But yes

[wraith relic]

The charge turn is so badly good

[thin mantle]

Carno just shouldn’t charge…I get more convinced of that every day

[wraith relic]

Atleast everyone agrees they shouldn’t have massacred dryo

[thin mantle]

Yeah nobody disagrees with that

If anything it was consensus that dryo was due for a buff

[wraith relic]

I also wish you could still dodge sideways

[thin mantle]

You can but you need to hold Alt and use your cam while maintaining direction

[wraith relic]

I’m h

Oh

[thin mantle]

I honestly thought dash would be FASTER than normal sprint but it’s literally no different

[versed rune]

people cry when carno runs them down

devs make it into a high damage ambush predator that’s bad on turns

people cry when they get jumped by the ambush predator

devs turn it into a pursuit predator except it can’t pursue cuz of turn radius

That’s the cycle every single time.

[wraith relic]

The middle one is best

[versed rune]

^^ not to mention the most faithful to the actual animal

[fresh laurel]

[thin mantle]

I don’t even think that’s accurate…it’s just never balanced properly in any model they give it…it’s abilities are either really effective or useless

[fresh laurel]

to carno:

[golden coral]

Pursuit carno is what it should be, not ambush. Good turn radius should be a given to hunt the smaller critters. Just remove knock down and add something better.

[wraith relic]

Atleast pachy doesn’t have paper skin anymore

[thin mantle]

The fact that Carno has a knockdown will continue to be hilarious to me

[fresh laurel]

pachy bullies utah hard

[thin mantle]

It’s the strongest animal on land next to stego atm

It decimates everything pretty easily

[fresh laurel]

i think pachy could probably fight off 3 utahs if it plays smart

[wraith relic]

That’s what other mid teirs should be, carno has always been fast with bad turns in real life and that’s a niche it could fit so why not keep that

[versed rune]

isle players when their ““small game hunter”” efficiently kills the small game

[wraith relic]

It had horrible turning in real life but was the fastest, that seems like a good niche

I know right

I’m scared for when allo comes out, it’s gonna be like legacy

The allo overpopulation of when you t was first implemented

[thin mantle]

There is nothing else…just allo

[versed rune]

we don’t even gotta worry bout allo

[golden coral]

If they want carno in game to hunt smalls, it needs to be good at it. And Id rather have carno like that, than make it a same size hunter.

[versed rune]

we can’t even get that rat troodon in the game, allo may as well be in the grave already

[quiet raven]

Why did update six not have humans or migration or diet changes

[versed rune]

because the isle

[wraith relic]

Had humans on unofficials

[golden coral]

Yes, its strange that a playable meant to hunt smaller things are good in a roster of mostly smaller things xD

[quiet raven]

Cool

Got it out before new year without half the content

[golden coral]

Humans do exist on unofficials yes, and diets have a new system

Migration wasnt meant to come in this update

[fresh laurel]

[ripe spruce]

How was it unbalanced?

[glass crag]

The balance in update 5 between Utah an Carno was much closer to what we have now. Carno need a few tweaks.
The balances is completely broken now imo

[golden coral]

@ripe spruce Very powerful pounce that also required very little smarts or skill to use, combined with no proper counter to it, and very quick and easy growth.

[dawn falcon]

You aren’t even challenged for using the pounce

[glass crag]

No counter??
All you had to do was buck by pressing a button. No skill required there

[dawn falcon]

It sucks

[golden coral]

Old buck was useless and more likely to only kill you faster. It was almost never worth using, hence not a proper counter. Also buck only delays death, which also makes it a rather terrible counter in and of itself.

[frail bobcat]

Imma try to practice in the next few days if the more but smaller pounces strat is viable

Because if it is, I will accept the buck change

[thin mantle]

Yes…it was skillless…it also wasn’t effective…it’s not good for it to be strong or weak but it’s BETTER for it to be stronger so the animals that rely on it are viable…but bucking and pounce need substantial overhauls in their functionality because both are barren of skill expression

[frail bobcat]

Pounce is in a weird spot rn
Super easy to land but super easy to counter
Insane bleed but insane stam cost
You cant touch without messing everything up or making op

[golden coral]

Do also have the "proper" number of omnis for the chosen taget

[frail bobcat]

So 2 omnis for one pachy

4 for one carno

And 4 for a teno

Doesnt 1 pachy destroy 2 omnis now?

[thin mantle]

Hence the whole “pounce in its current state is intrinsically flawed” point

[ripe spruce]

Well yeah a utah needed a strong pounce. Do you know how hard it is to bite a carno to death? Lol

[ripe spruce]

Ermm, you have to get it right cos if u miss you get hit!

[ripe spruce]

U need 4 good omnis for just 1 good carno now?

[frail bobcat]

I think so, carno is broken rn

[ripe spruce]

Even with 4, some are still gonna die

If I try utah (omni) and its really bad, I won't be playing it again until they fix it. Which is a damn shame as I loved playing utah!

[obtuse ocean]

So what ? you gonna balance them around 1v1?

[thin mantle]

That’s absolutely how it should be….

[golden coral]

You're not supposed to hunt carnos, they're supposed to hunt you. xD

It's interesting that people thought carno was fine last update when it was by far worse than omni, and also now saying carno taking no skill, when omni never took skill in the first place. If charge is easy to use, pounce is as easy and vaguely safer to use at that. (and in prior update, there wasn't even a contest, since any player with some form of awareness would not get hit by the charge, while dodging the pounce is borderline impossible in most cases).

[wintry mountain]

Carno has some fine tuning but to say it was fine last patch is just objectively false to its role

Charge as a mechanic did not serve to benefit it's niche, it does now, as mechanics should

[golden coral]

Carno do need a rework yes (or well, charge does), as does a fair few other critters to be honest. But if current charge turn is kept, fine tuning as needed, then the potential for pursuit hunter and proper small game hunter (if that's what its supposed to be) is there. Which would be nice, at least in my opinion.

@quick latch I believe that diet might also give nesting buffs at some point, which would fit with it giving a growth bonus since you give your kid your nutrients these days. So you'd want to go for that one when you grow or when you plan to nest and thus "grow" someone else.

[golden coral]

@timber jacinth I believe it was because apparently you could almost fly "backwards" and basically "hover" over somethings head and just peck away safely, with no counter for the target to use.

[quick latch]

That would make it viable too I just still think it shouldn’t be entirely useless other than growth and feeding babies

[golden coral]

Fair. I don't mind it because I like the idea of being a bit more "territorial" and not traveling in a "circle" (or whatever shape your nutrient route made). So I like that the other combos are better for general play.

But they might very well add something extra for the "trio" combo as well to encourage that one, or it might tie into migration perhaps, would also be interesting and maybe fit a bit more with having to move extra for all the food.

[dawn falcon]

It already does

Two S + a Lipid gives you a 10% incubation bonus

[golden coral]

Yes but I think we were talking about the "one of everything" combo.

[dawn falcon]

Ah

[golden coral]

And it being useful for more than just growth, to which I think that one could then fit with a nesting bonus.

No worries, maybe I wasn't clear on the topic :D

[golden coral]

@analog mirageThe weight is a thing already. Hence why tiny omnis now go flying real quick if they pounce something larger.

[frail bobcat]

@blazing crater where is the change of omnis turnrate, I didnt find it in the patch logs

[golden coral]

I don't know if there was an actual change, but I recall it feeling off trying to turn as dryo, so they might have done something, that if it's not an actual change, might still throw people off.