balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

tbh

i dont think you can fully blame isle players

[tall bronze]

Nothing to do but kill.

[dusky surge]

evrima itself has set itself up as kind of a bigass battleground

until elders and other such mechanics are in

not much more to do but fight, since there's little reward for surviving

[tall bronze]

Evrima is just an RPG where all classes but Warrior are locked

[dusky surge]

with elders and perks, you actually have a goal beyond killing, survival ensures more rewards than needless risks

[golden coral]

Eh, true enough. But it does mean there's a whole mentality that will need to change at some point.

[dusky surge]

the mentality will have to change naturally, you can't force it

it will probably change more around U7, because of the fact that people feel a need to actually sustain their animals for prolonged periods

[golden coral]

Too bad it's all so far away still.

[tall bronze]

I feel afterwards, another thing that could help increase survival mentality is making injuries more meaningful.

H O W E V E R, this also requires more ways to both heal and mitigate injuries, as having only resting as your method of healing is quite poor.

[brittle marsh]

Them poor mage dinos

[tall bronze]

🔥

[dusky surge]

the humans are the mage

[tall bronze]

What are Dryo and Hypsi?

[dusky surge]

level 1 goblin

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

im right and you know it

[brittle marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/dinosaur-rawr-gif-9617772

[brittle marsh]

Wheres the gold at?

[tall bronze]

One thing I would like that I know some hate the idea of is fractures (post-severities) being more of a regular injury like bleed rather than a special ability. I loath the idea of fractures only being applicable by like.....3 things.

So you'd have things like Pachy that are obviously REALLY good at dealing fractures and utilize them, but then you have things like Carno who can deal lower-level fractures with their ram and don't necessarily rely on them. However, a fracture is a fracture. And assuming fractures in general are improved in ways like not healing in less than 5 minutes even while running, a mild fracture may get worse if you abuse it.

A bit more risk to fights depending on what you and your prey/predator are.

Sure, you escaped that totally unnecessary fight you started, but your leg got a mild fracture. You with your brilliantness however decided to wave it off and keep on moving. Now it's getting worse and taking longer to heal. Now you're more noticeably limping and louder due to pain.

Suddenly 3 Omnis appear. Normally, they wouldn't fight whatever you are. But considering they see you're limping, they realize you are disadvantaged. Long story short, Omnis eatin' good tonight thanks to your unneeded bloodlust!

Meanwhile in a parallel universe, reverse-you decided to take the fracture more seriously as to not let it get worse and ate certain foods and rested to heal it faster. (or just avoided the fight in the first place)

[brittle marsh]

I think we need an edit.
Long story short, --- you end up jumping into the water, because your an Isle player

[tall bronze]

[golden coral]

Exponential healing/recovery times maybe.

[ocean sentinel]

Having players heal quicker the better their health currently is could definitely incentivize caution

[golden coral]

Also, for stego juvie, you could always rework the attacks, what attacks it has and how they work, and add full moving swings and so on. Doesn't have to be entirely new mechanics or biome.

[ocean sentinel]

It would be far better to just pull out and heal the moment you get hit if you can heal in a minute so, rather than lose most your health and take a whole ingame day cycle. Though you probably don't want to go too far with it.

[golden coral]

I've been thinking about the idea that the lower your stam/health is, the slower the recovery, as in, the longer you stay at those lower levels. Both to encourage backing off or otherwise reconsidering while you're still "in the green", but also to properly have wounded and weakened critters around more often, unlike "Oh I almost died, can't see even a sliver of health, but let me just sit in the bush for 10 min and I'm good to go". Maybe even add extra food and/or water drain when lower on stam and health to incentivize having to be out and about and not be able to just sit and heal all of it and not have a worry aside from being thirdpartied (and generally that only happens when there's actively things watching the fight, in which case you're aware of the extra danger and can adjust to that, more or less).

[ocean sentinel]

Only problem with this is right now combat is basically the only thing you have to do other than walk around, chat, and basically complete fetch quest for diet.

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, not saying it'd have to be a thing right now, it's just been on my mind because it seems rather rare to find weaker or otherwise vunerable players unless you're right there when the action is happening.

And I kind of want the whole locked health/scars to matter a bit more, so it's more valid to go for what seems wounded, rather than "oh, it's just one bite less if that" (normally locked health still means you're in the green health so, not sure how much difference it makes, but then I mostly play stego so there is that too).

[ocean sentinel]

So you'd basically just be slowing combat too a snail pace due to how cautious everyone would be, and anyone who screws up bad would basically be unable to play the game for an hour or so depending on how extreme the mechanic is

If you want players to do more than run around and kill stuff, give them things to do other than run around and kill stuff, it's as simple as that.

[golden coral]

Well, one would not have to exclude the other to be fair. Both sides of the equation could be worked on.

But yeah, for now it's not much good. But then that kind of recovery could tie into eating or otherwise interact with something for faster recovery. The main point is that you should have to be out and about, and interacted with, while you're wounded.

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah, force players to actually play the game

[golden coral]

So it's not a matter of "Oh, I almost died, but as long as nothing finds me within the next 10 min, I'm perfectly fine", but rather "I'm almost dead, now I need food and water and have to put myself out there while struggling to stay alive, maybe next time back off from the fight or be more wary"

But yeah, for now it's not good because fighting is all there is, but I am after all thinking for proper survival, sometime in the future!

[ocean sentinel]

Right now though simply surviving is quite easy, just be careful around hotspots, stick to cover, and only leave for diet. Do that and the Isle becomes quite an easy game.

Especially for herbivores, though with enough NPCs carnivores also don't really have issues.

[golden coral]

Sounds about right. Carno would be the struggle, simply due to hunger drain, but even then you can survive okay with the amount of boars I tend to see at least.

[ocean sentinel]

Just only play after server reset, and you should be fine

The Isle could honestly really benefit from more PvE elements

A dynamic environment and natural disasters could be used to force players to move away from areas they'd usually be safe and crowd them into other areas.

After all it's hard to hide in a forest all the time when it occasionally catches on fire.

And something like a drought system could force people to crowd around what few sources of water are left if sufficiently severe.

[hollow canyon]

Why are you people so allergic to combat? Combat in this game is awesome, it's the coolest thing to do in this game and - a shocker here for some - it will always remain the coolest thing to do. Stop trying to discourage people from fighting for goodness sake. It's the one aspect of this game that's actually really goddamn entertaining(as long as it works as intended).

As for "risky combat" - that's the best kind of combat. Let me think of two situations that I've had in the recent days as a Deino - when did I have more fun? Devouring every juvie Deino that appeared in the 3 yard radius around me and whom I killed without putting any effort into it or when I approached an entire horde of Deinos and killed them one by one? Goddamn, that's such a hard decision to make(obviously the latter situation was much more entertaining, fun and provided for a more thrilling experience).

[dusky surge]

its not being against combat, its wanting more to the game beyond combat

no one is suggesting combat be less fun or worse for your animal than it is now

just that there be another endgoal than go on a killing spree that actually might have some animals hold back from taking dumb fights

you can still fight if you want to, but people might not constantly do that if there's more on the line, which adds towards realism and gives more purpose to actually keeping your animal alive

no one is being anti-combat, just pro-doing-anything-else

[golden coral]

No one is being allergic to combat Aken, and you know that. And yes, combat is well designed (well, in theory, teno is a great example, the rest, not so much), but at the end of the day, I want combat to be fun and good, but also undesireable as a choice, because it is a survival game. As such, you should make decisions that helps you remain alive, not put you at risk of dying. I want people to hunt, not fight. I want people to always ask themselves "Is this worth it", for an engagement, rather than just going at it because why not. The point of mechanics such as my idea earlier, is to make people have to ask themselves if going at the other guy if there's no need is the best choice. As well as to add the existence of actually wounded and thus vunerable players, rather than just being able to go in and out of combat with barely any issue.

Combat can be well designed, and really fun to engage with, as it should, and still be a bad idea to actually do more often than not. Being fun to do and being dangerous and thus a less than ideal thing to do, is not mutually exclusive after all. A lot of things in life tends to be fun, but it does not mean it's always good for you. As for seeing "risky combat" as the best, well yes, if there's no reason to value your life and the only thing in the game to get a thrill from is fighting, that makes sense. But that's the issue, it shouldn't be the only thing, not even the main thing neccesarily, because again, it is a survival game with some form of end goal aside from "how many things can I kill before I die". At least back then there used to be something more than just existing for the sake of going on a killing spree, much as I know you enjoy that.

I even acknowledged that right now, any mechanic to make combat less desireable isn't really ideal because that's all the game offers, but ideally the game will offer more than just combat, and a reason to both stay alive, nest, and think longer than just your current life. And at that point, it would be more reasonable to have the game encourage that sort of mentality and playstyle.

[hollow canyon]

any mechanic to make combat less desireable isn't ideal because it will always be the most fun thing to do in the game

I truly wonder what you guys believe to be potentially more interesting than one dinosaur going chompa-chompa on another dinosaur?

[dusky surge]

we're not trying to have a mechanic that's more interesting than combat, its not like there's an active competition and we want combat to lose, the idea here is that we want more to do than JUST combat

[hollow canyon]

Because I will be perfectly honest I play this game to have my dino exactly go chompa-chompa on others, anything else so far has been boring and I can't see anything else being all that interesting, I'd very much like to have some more context for fighting but

[dusky surge]

no one is asking for combat to be second best or something

this isnt a competition

[hollow canyon]

well... you say that but ^

[dusky surge]

i dont know what that statement proves

[hollow canyon]

idk if everyone gets discouraged after getting hit once, that is kind of clearly discouraging people from taking fights, especially risky fights

which are the very best kind of fights

[dusky surge]

there is literally nothing stopping you from taking risky fights

[hollow canyon]

locked health

[dusky surge]

the concept that people who like taking risky fights will be discouraged by risk is kinda counterintuitive

[hollow canyon]

diets

[dusky surge]

they don't stop you

the point of a risky fight is that it has risk

[hollow canyon]

they make it significantly harder to engage in those

[dusky surge]

neither locked health nor diets change that

[hollow canyon]

since after I win such a fight

I have to wait a long, long time before I can engage in any fighting again

[dusky surge]

hence the risky fight

[hollow canyon]

it's not risky

[dusky surge]

you are literally taking a risk

[hollow canyon]

risky fighting is one that has a high chance in me dying

this is just a snooze-fest of afking in a bush due to healing the dumb locked health

[golden coral]

Some form of long term goal. I don't know if it will be more fun, but I sincerely hope so. I would like to be able to establish some form of bloodline via nesting and perks and stuff like that personally. I also don't think there's an issue with both wanting combat to be really fun, and less desireable at the same time. Like, great looking swimming animations, but going for a swim is risky and not something you want to do. Or beautiful nights, but there's troodons and dilos out there that will kill you, so you'd rather not go out unless you need to. Granted, those aren't great examples, but I trust you do get my point here. It's not about making combat bad, it's about making it a choice rather than a given action. Instead of being "I can kill this thing, let's go!" it should be "I can kill this thing, but is it worth the risk of damage/death and long term need vs temporary thrill?".

[hollow canyon]

or being discouraged from fighting something because it doesn't give the nutrient I want

I want to fight a Stego as Deino but why in the world would I ever do that if it's borderline worthless to me diet-wise?

[hollow canyon]

Yea I think that's exactly what my problem is with, that very last sentence.

"is fun worth sitting for 20 minutes in a bush healing up?"

that's already a thing in this game

it's one of the most trash aspects of it

[golden coral]

Not if your goal is to remain alive. Which is kind of the point, no? And yes, getting discouraged the longer the fight drags on would make people have to make a choice if whatever they're fighting is worth it, vs it being worth it because A, if you win you're good to go, and B, if you die, you just regrow with oftentimes little issue. (And we all know how people feel about making growth incredibly hard and all that), which would also be the point. You can still do it, but the game should reward you for not doing so, by letting you have an easier time overall for your long term goals. Instead of now having to go out there severely wounded and thus at greater risk of dying.

[dusky surge]

i dont think being able to take a fight, heal up and constantly fight again and again without downtime is very good for the survival element

[hollow canyon]

I don't think not-fighting or taking only fights that are one-sided and you know you can win is very good for the fun element

Surviving in this game has always been easy

[golden coral]

It's not. It's rather terrible, as we can see in game as it stands.

[golden coral]

It is fun if you, you know, play for the survival aspect, long term goals, and results, over cheap thrills. But that is of course down to what you prefer.

You find value in the action itself, I find value in the results.

[hollow canyon]

Any halfwit can sit back in a corner of the map and do absolutely nothing just munching on whatever plant/eating AI while avoiding all the players

[golden coral]

Which is of course why we also want more, long term goals, and things to do, so there's a reason to remain alive.

[dusky surge]

i mean, there are servers for the whole "fight and nothing else" playstyle

and when they release sandbox, it'll be a whole mode

id rather survival mode be survival mode

[golden coral]

Maybe those would be enough to discourage people from just going at fighting all the time, but I doubt it, so I'd like to see proper incentives to choose flight over fight, much as para has been set to do apparently.

[hollow canyon]

sandbox isn't a mode for fighting, it's merely a mode for practice

[golden coral]

I don't think survival means = stay hidden in a corner. It's more so it means = make the best decisions to remain alive for as long as possible.

[dusky surge]

its literally for fighting what

[golden coral]

And of course the game should require you to be put at risk, and have to make dangerous choices.

[hollow canyon]

it's for practicing, fighting in sandbox is completely different and irrelevant to survival fights

it's the survival fights that matter

[dusky surge]

skip the boring growing/surviving part and get right to the good stuff that is fighting

[golden coral]

But your goal should be to mitigate those risks, to find the best way to stay alive, against the games attempts to put you at risk, instead of happily going along with those risks and throwing yourself at the danger.

[hollow canyon]

they have weight behind them, there's a high risk in engaging in it and there's far more strategy and planning about it

sandbox fighting is nothing like that

it's only good for practice

[dusky surge]

so adding a reason to live gives more risk, strategy and planning

[golden coral]

There's no real risk, that's kind of the point.

[dusky surge]

thus i fail to see the problem

[golden coral]

You either live, and is not at risk aside from 10 min of "afk healing", or you die, and afk grow back.

[hollow canyon]

how in the world is there no risk in this game? You literally lose hours of progress upon dying

[golden coral]

Which considering growth isn't really that much of a bother, now is it?

Clearly there's no risk since people are all too willing to throw themselves into combat more often than not.

[hollow canyon]

in what world growth isn't really that much of a bother?

[golden coral]

That does not indicate that there's a risk, that there's a downside, something that makes you go "I really hope I do not die".

[hollow canyon]

My friends outright refuse to play this game because they don't want to waste hour upon hours of their time to engage in it

[hollow canyon]

Idk what can possibly make you go "I really hope I do not die" more than losing your entire progress

[golden coral]

Because afkgrow? Or are you claiming that growth is now difficult and demanding?

[golden coral]

If regaining that progess was more than me sitting in a bush and watching youtube, maybe.

[hollow canyon]

it's not difficult, it takes a lot of time which is something that's valuable to most sane people

[golden coral]

It would be, if you had to actively play the game.

But as we both know, growing is pretty much a do a few things, then watch netflix while game plays itself. Occassionally do a few more things, rinse and repeat for a few hours. There you go.

[dusky surge]

okay, so

• you dont like growth because it takes time
• you dont like survival mechanics because it takes away from fighting
• you dont like sandbox because it doesnt have growth or survival mechanics

what exactly do you want

[golden coral]

If you felt "Oh no, I have to regrow" when you die, then you wouldn't be throwing yourself into fights and not care how it goes.

[hollow canyon]

You're not exactly understanding my point I feel

I don't dislike survival mechanics

I want them however to compliment PvP rather than discouraging it

I like growth as a concept but I don't like that it's based on time and eating

I'd like it to be based on things I do in the game

encouraging you know - active gameplay

[dusky surge]

perks/elders dont discourage pvp tho, they're a choice. If you choose to take risks, you can sacrifice perks/elder because you can die, or you can fight anyway because you are an adult and why not

[hollow canyon]

PoT has a much better idea of growth, their execution is atrocious but rewarding people with growth for things they do in the game gives a potentaily much better gameplay loop than having people wait until they're fully grown

[dusky surge]

those are literally the two things growth is based on irl

[golden coral]

The thing is, survival mechanics and PvP are, while not exclusive to each other, not really complimentary.

[dusky surge]

PoT's growth system sucks why would anyone want that

[hollow canyon]

growth also takes years irl it doesn't in the game... I wonder why?

[golden coral]

Since one is all about putting yourself in danger, and the other is about not doing so.

[hollow canyon]

PoT's growth is trash because their quests are trash

nobody plays these games to pick up goddamn pine cones

the idea of activity being rewarded with growth is good though

[golden coral]

As long as there's a clear reward for getting all those things, so it's a given that progressing that way is much better than just getting adult, and then fighting until you inevitably die. It could work out, but then there's how to balance those perks and all to make that work.

[dusky surge]

what is an example of a non-tedious quest that you need to do to grow

[golden coral]

So how would you achieve this, when you want people to actively go against the most basic of survival ideas?

How do you make people value their life, make them really consider every action they take, while also complimenting taking actions that is not conductive to their long term survival?

[hollow canyon]

I've already gone over that on multiple occasions, you can have different things that an animal would do that would be rewarded with growth, each one of them specific for an animal, you can have ceratopsids mark trees with their horns, same goes for Carno and Cerato, you can have some playfighting, you can have some things that you actually have to do in the game, for example you might be given a quest "wallow" with tips saying that wallowing decreases the bleeding of your animal, you can have a quest "eat saltrocks" just in general - do the things that you will be doing in the game anyways + any quests that fit a specific animal

hell the devs could just create a channel where people would suggest quests and then they could pick the ones that are in their mind sensible

[golden coral]

Are those really so much more fun than picking pinecones though? :p

[hollow canyon]

there's 60k people on this discord, someone will come up with something that is decently good

[golden coral]

They might make more sense, sure, but, you're still just doing x, then doing y, for the sake of getting growth.

[hollow canyon]

I think it's definitely more fun than being rewarded for just existing in the game

the issue with PoT quests is that they are for the most part all the same and don't fit the animals that have to do them

[hollow canyon]

I think people value their lives enough as it is, I honestly haven't been attacked by a single person who didn't have a significant advantage over me during the last few days that I played the game, the progress to whatever perks/traits that completing the full lifecycle would do being lost for the specific lifecycle where you died prematurely - which is something that Dondi mentioned - is also a really serious downside.

As for how I'd reward it? Give more progress for killing the right things

[dusky surge]

i see the opposite, people don't value their life at all and will leap at any opportunity to take a needless fight

[hollow canyon]

if I kill a Stego as a deinosuchus I should get some really serious reward instead of getting well... the same nutrient as fish

[golden coral]

Considering how much people seem to still just fight happily, I don't think they value them enough at all. Nowhere near, quite honestly. And maybe that would be enough, but I sincerely doubt it. Unless those traits and perks are so good that someone that does not play like that just can't achieve anything in the game. Sure, if perks and stuff makes it so someone that only grows, then fights and dies, will die all the time vs those with perks, it might work. But then I think that might lead to all kinds of other issues, so it's probably not ideal.

[hollow canyon]

where does this happen? I've watched an encounter between Deinos and Stego 2 days ago, everyone lived the whole encounter, nobody died because everyone was actually careful about not losing 5 hours of their time

[golden coral]

And that wasn't what I asked. I asked you how to can both compliment PvP while at the same time making people care about not dying. Rewarding people for killing does not make them care about staying alive.

[dusky surge]

i watched as utahs literally threw themselves at a stego which had killed most of their pack and barely took a hint of damage

retreating would've been easy, but why bother

[hollow canyon]

I already addresssed what there is to disincentivise dying - the absurdly long time-sink growth times for stareters

[hollow canyon]

cause Utah

It's literally Utahraptor being absurdly broken right now because of all the buffs it received

[golden coral]

But that doesn't disincentivize it, we can clearly see that in game.

We've seen that through most of the games history I'd say.

[hollow canyon]

I see something completely else, as I mentioned I haven't seen a single Deino or Stego allow itself to take much risk

I was pretty much the only person playing one of those animals that actively attacked people without an advantage in numbers, well me + one juvie Deino whose big companion I've killed and who seemingly wanted to start growing anew

[golden coral]

Meanwhile I've seen ten times that amount of just "go at it until someone dies, because we must kill the deino/stego" and similar.

[hollow canyon]

Please tell me you're not talking about Utahs

[golden coral]

But maybe you just found a "chill" server. Because honestly, I don't think it was because "I dont want to die", but rather "I just want to chill and be nice"

No, I meant stego vs deino matchup.

[hollow canyon]

I've played on EU3, EU4 and EU5

[golden coral]

Sounds about right yes, at least EU5 from what I know is more chill, and well, slow paced I suppose. Probs 4 as well, it tends to be 1-3 where all the stuff goes down really.

[hollow canyon]

The only game that I can think of that I know where you risk more than in TI is Ark

simply because it's even more of a timesink

[golden coral]

I think we're looking at risk a bit differently here. You consider out of game as something, while I'm talking about ingame risks.

[hollow canyon]

Idk what can be a bigger in game risk other than losing your whole progress

[golden coral]

I'd rather trade outside game punishment, such as the timesink, for ingame punishment, as it were.

[hollow canyon]

unless you want people to have their GPU explode or attach them to some device that would shock them irl every time their playable gets hurt/dies

what would be the in game punishment?

[golden coral]

But then there has to be that risk, actively, not just temporarly because you might die in the fight. But the long term risks and thus decision making.

Which you see as "anti-combat".

[golden coral]

Now you're being silly. And you know that.

[hollow canyon]

of course I am

[golden coral]

Basically, as I said earlier, right now it's either you win, and all is well, aside from some active thirdpartying, or you die and just afkgrow.

[hollow canyon]

but I don't see how anything could remotely be more punishing than making people lose all their progress

[golden coral]

I want there to be a "I won but now I'm in trouble for the next few hours" so it's a long term decision.

[hollow canyon]

Goddamn, that's probably the thing I'd want the least

That would literally make it unplayable

[golden coral]

So it's not a matter of either doing or dying right here and now, but if you do, you still might lose out more than it was worth. Because otherwise there's still no real risk or choice, because you just start over, you've not made a bad decision and now you "suffer" for it. Like going mountain climbing in the game and breaking your leg.

[hollow canyon]

just for the record

you're talking

about irl hours, not in game hours?

[golden coral]

Most likely irl, since what's an ingame hour, a few minutes?

Which is what we currently have when it comes to healing?

[hollow canyon]

goddamn, yes I'd love the game to be even more of a dull timesink

no, on a serious note, I'd drop it immediately if anything like that was introduced

[golden coral]

Well, isn't the point to not put yourself in a position where you need to deal with that timesink then?

You can go mountain climbing as a stego, but if you fall a tiny bit and break your leg, then that should matter and be a serious issue.

Not a matter of "Okay, I'll just sit here alone for a good few min and there we go, good as new"

[hollow canyon]

No, being in that position where you can die should be an absolute requirement for survival, people should be rewarded for taking risks and punished for not doing so

[golden coral]

Where's the risk there, where's the consequenses of having taken damage and made youself vunerable, if you're never, or rarely at least, getting into trouble for it?

[hollow canyon]

if someone plays risk free they shouldn't be getting any progress

[golden coral]

That's, kind of opposite to survival.

[hollow canyon]

towards elders, perks or anything

[golden coral]

Sure, the game should put you at risk, you should need to be at risk, but your goal should be to avoid that as much as possible, and mitigate it, by making smart decisions and all that.

You do not get rewarded for being at risk, you get rewarded for avoiding that risk.

[hollow canyon]

You might want to mitigate it e.g. by eating an already dead trike instead of the one that's prancing about but you should have to eat that trike(or any other dangerous animal that can kill you)

if you get to get by simply by avoiding any danger and the game rewards you for that, then the game design is simply bad

[golden coral]

If you can achieve that lack of danger, haven't you made a good decision then?

[hollow canyon]

Also - I think this is more isle-discussion fitting

it's not really about balance feedback

[golden coral]

You want to encourage the stego to go mountain climbing, I want to encourage it to find the flattest, safest route through the mountains.

Well, it kind of is, since we're sort of talking about my suggestion earlier. I think at least.

[hollow canyon]

Well I'm really talking about the general premise you three had in that discussion of how there should be more risk to fighting

[golden coral]

I guess we can go over there if you want then. Maybe for the best, don't want to get yelled at by whoever is in charge these days.

[winter iris]

@rain bane I fully agree with your feedback on stego. I think a multiplier of 3-3.5 should be used for bites on its head. It would remain a strong tanky animal, but with a vulnerable part to defend at all costs. This would also make the game better for everyone, including stegos

[frail bobcat]

You know how stego is a apex that is THE glass cannon of the herbi apexes. And that deino is not supposed to hunt stegos in the first place

Stego takes 1000 damage from a deino bite to the head right now, that means a 6 hit. A 3 times would make it a 4 hit which is ridicoulus

[hollow canyon]

it wouldn't be at all tanky

it would get absolutely obliterated by any actually competent Deino player

and it wouldn't even be close

Goddamn T.rex would be killing a Stego on sight with an absurdly high multiplier like that

[winter iris]

Honestly I think that if as stego you get bitten 4 times on the head by a deino you deserve death. So totally fine to me

Maybe a multiplier of 3 could be too much, but I don’t think that a multiplier of 2 (as other dinos) is fair

Stego tail slam is 1000 damage if I’m not wrong ? So that would mean 4 hits in the head to kill a deino, so a 4 hit in the head from deino could be fair, also considering that it is a lot easier for stego to hit deino on the head than the other way round.
Although I m not 100% sure the stego tail damage is 1000 (guess so though considering it 1 shots a carno on the head).
I’m not even a deino player, so don’t really care tbh. I just di not think it is fair that stego can run that fast, be that tanky, have that much stamina and be so powerful all together. As of now it basically does not have any weak spot

[frail bobcat]

Its 1250 and the headshot multiplier of other dinos is 1.5. and still, rea what aken said

[rain bane]

I agree with you.

[rain bane]

Why? Isn't deino itself an apex, at least in its niche now and in future updates? There is no one stronger than a deino in the water, which makes it an apex. And those who set foot on its territory (to drink water) must pay their price.

The banal rule "either I can run or I can fight back." Stego can now both run away and fight back, so isn't that a rediculuos?

[stark knoll]

No, it's far out of deino's league, and even then, it can still be effectively killed by them

[rain bane]

Deino cannot grab an full adult stego in its mouth. It has a chance to evade his teeth even with increased damage to the head.

[stark knoll]

That's not a bad thing to me

Neither gets obliterated by each other, they both have the option to run or fight

[rain bane]

If the deino is on the ground, it cannot run away from the stego. If deino in the water - it can. But the stego can run away in both cases - they won’t catch stego in the water and it manages to swim to the other side of river, they don’t catch up stego on the ground because its too fast. Is this a fair fight? Stego will die only because of its stupidity, deciding to fight with a few deino or with one good deino right on the river bank.

[stark knoll]

If a deino can't kill a swimming stego then I honestly don't know what to say

They are immensely slow in the water

And a deino on land should lose

[rain bane]

A good stego will not turn his head and fight at a disadvantage. It's too heavy booty right now. I have never seen a stego cross a river at a wide point. And in a narrow deino just doesn't have enough time to land enough blows to kill it.

I agree that deino on earth should lose. But the stego by the water should also lose.

[stark knoll]

So what does increasing the headshot damage do in this case?

Increasing headshot damage will just make good deinos better and do absolutely nothing for the average player, which seems to be the target of the suggestion

It'll make every other of stego's machups worse in future encounters and doesn't solve the issue you repeatedly bring up

[rain bane]

And right now, when a deino attacks, the stego has every opportunity to run back, take an advantageous position and attack.

The headshot damage increase will increase the number of successful ambushes and attacks when crossing the river, as headshots will require less than what is currently available. Hence the stego will be more afraid of the water and will be less brave.
If you take other creatures, it will be a faster, but more fair battle.

Now the stego in the head kills almost everyone - so let these "everyone" also kill it in the head faster. Thus, it will be a dangerous carcass with a lot of health, but a small and most important weak point.
The rex argument - the stego just shouldn't give it a head and the rex will lose. And the rex should not expose its head and breed stego for attacks.

The fact that a stego is a grassland herbivore does not negate the fact that it should be afraid of water. As do all animals that share their range with crocodiles.

Even now you need to be able to hit the head of a stego. So let those who will hunt stego receive their reward for an accurate hit.

The biggest problem that stems from the increase in damage to the head of the stego is that the deinos will become stronger. But they are already super strong, at the time of the current update - BUT THEIR POPULATION SHOULD NOT BE CONTROLLED BY STEGO. To negate this, either force players to more active cannibalism within the species (move the deino to a separate diet with no alternatives, so that those who want the ideal diet would be forced to cannibalize), or introduce competitive dinosaurs (sucho, bary, spino, whо will regulate deinos of different ages).

[frail bobcat]

The pop is controlled by the deino players who try to kill stegos

[frail bobcat]

Deino is just not meant to kill things the size and strenght of stegos (it literally specialises in killing things below 4 tons)

[rain bane]

Why? Just because of ability to grab dinos?

[sharp delta]

Bro, I do not wanna spend more than a day growing a Dino just for it to get its head chopped off

If your idea comes into play I’d rather hide than go around, which is not very stego like

[frail bobcat]

Because it cant kill anything above 4 tons, cause that is just gonna run away after the deinos first bite

[sharp delta]

Then what’s the point of growing it for more than 7 hours if it dies that easily

[frail bobcat]

Lets take the deinos kit:
Ambusher with a basic instakill for everything below 4 tons
Very fast in water
Very slow on land
High health
10 minute oxygen
500 bite damage

[stark knoll]

Isn't oxygen 10 minutes now?

[frail bobcat]

That looks like a ambusher that specifies in ambushing prey below 4 tons and not big fat tailswinging walnutbrains

[sharp delta]

Stego is a tank, it’s supposed to TANK hits

[rain bane]

Well, deino players are still killing adult stegos now. Especially since it's their diet.

[sharp delta]

Then why make it so that stegos are easier to kill?!?!?

[rain bane]

I just remember how stego was in legacy (weak in hp, strong in damage). I think it would just be its thing. There are more armored dinosaurs that have stronger heads and necks.

[frail bobcat]

Because there is nothing else to for that diet and everytime a stego dies, its its own fault. Bro can just walk away

[sharp delta]

Nobody cares about necks!!!

It’s merely just a tanky lizard that has spikes

[frail bobcat]

The stego is actually the glass cannon of the apexes compared to shant, anky and trike

[rain bane]

I focus on concepts and dinosaur visuals. Stego head just can't be as protected as its body.
If we take the gameplay component - so that the game for the stego is not so chilly, so that more creatures challenge them.

[slim dragon]

Fun fact : irl stegosaurus had an armored neck

[sharp delta]

Let’s also mention the fact that there will be way stronger things than deino in the future, making stego weaker now will make it suck when rex and such release

How will my stego defend itself from way bigger things if it could easily die to the neck?!?

[rain bane]

Just because we make stego weaker now doesn't mean it can't be buffed later.

[winter iris]

Guys, I’m not sure that a multiplier of 3 is fine for stego…but the way you’re putting the problem down is just wrong. Biting stego head is difficult, so it’d remain extremely hard to kill. You’re saying that something that currently annihilate everything could face the issue of dying to something…are you serious?

[sharp delta]

Then what’s the point of your suggestion if it could just be buffed later on?!?

[frail bobcat]

True, stegos gonna need to defend from rexes very often

[rain bane]

So that stego now would have more natural enemies. So that the game as stego is not a chill mod.

[frail bobcat]

Why should they nerf stegos if they need to buff them later anyway cause apexes gonna come in

[stark knoll]

This is exactly why I'm against it, increasing the headshot multiplier will just make it easier for people who are already capable of killing stegos imo

[sharp delta]

Yea, the stego needs to be strong enough if it wants to live right next to gigas, rexes, and other stuff

[winter iris]

Because adding multipliers is literally a character in the code, so no effort at all to make game better as of now. It could easily be reversed later

[frail bobcat]

But its not needed

[sharp delta]

Exactly

[rain bane]

Guys, you forget that apexes like rex or giga will be in a few years. And what, such a huge stego carcass will walk, being strong enough to defend against apexes that are not yet in the game? And who will hunt it? Troodon?

[sharp delta]

Not exactly but it’s supposed to be a tank

[slim dragon]

Y'all seem to forget the existence of omni

[sharp delta]

And like @stark knoll said, people who can already kill it efficiently will just make it easy for them

[sharp delta]

Deino is already an apex, don’t know what your talking about

[frail bobcat]

Remember, with u6, stegos are gonna be big targets cause its organs are way bigger than the ones of other animals. Carnos will start going for stegos then too

[rain bane]

Stego doesn't even have concept art. Why does it have to be tank? Again, on the concepts, its head is easily torn off by the same albertos.

[bright oasis]

True, utahs (omnis) are literally supposed to kill stegos. They're even killing one in gigas own concept art. If you wanna kill stegos, go utah. If not, wait for bigger preds or kill em while they're still small.

[rain bane]

I don't often see utahs preying on stego. Because they are 1 shot to tail blows, and the battle often goes on for a long time, which increases the chance of getting caught under the tail.

[sharp delta]

Yea, the simple answer is to just kill ‘em while they’re young

Ignore the big ones

[frail bobcat]

Utahs are NOT supposed to kill stegos tbh. A playable made to attack the flanks is no good predator for a animal that is made to defend its flanks

[sharp delta]

Because sooner or later bigger stuff can take them on

[rain bane]

I already spoke about deino above. My position does not change.

[frail bobcat]

Boredom will get them

[slim dragon]

Never said they have it easy
But it shouldn't be

[sharp delta]

Let’s also mention that cannibal stegos are a thing

[winter iris]

Carnos are literally wiped by stegos, so no point in hunting them as carno. You’d be successful not even 1 in 10 times

[rain bane]

As someone was told above, "carno should not prey on stego", so I'm not counting them now.

[sharp delta]

So just letting them attack eachother is another answer

[bright oasis]

Same argument could be said about utah in legacy but those same players still hunted rexes and gigas and shants.

[sharp delta]

Perhaps ceratosaurus can beat a stego

[frail bobcat]

I bet the success rates are gonna go up with u6 cause the reward is that good, so people gonna learn thst

[sharp delta]

Which is coming soon, so the suggestion to make their head very weak will probably go and bite them in the butt when that big rhino thing comes into play

Making the head weaker will merely make stegos less common

[winter iris]

Success rate is independent from the number of attempts, it’s mainly based on dinos stats. So if stats are not going to change the success rate (which I assumed, but is not far from what I suggested) isn’t going to change

[frail bobcat]

Success rate is based on skill (see solo utahs soloing stegos

[winter iris]

Considering players will be the same also in U6, so skills are the same, then success rate is based on stats.
It is really funny how so many people think that every fight is mainly skill, whilst actually skill is just a part of it, and probably not even the bigger part. This is a videogame, so stats of different dinos have a huge impact on each fight. Same Dino fights are based on skill, not different dinos fights (at least not only on skill)

[frail bobcat]

If I see that a certain thing gives me a big reward, Imma try to get better at that thing, ya know

And stats are a big thing yes, but a better player can utterly destroy worse players

[winter iris]

Yes you can get better up to a certain point, which is decided by the stats that the devs decide to adopt, not further

[winter iris]

On this I agree

[frail bobcat]

And that certain point may be enough for three carnos to kill a adult stego

[wet sleet]

@small venture It isn't that there is no counter play at all, but there is too little counter play in situations like this:
https://youtu.be/0lIPe1OxyD0?t=828

[tall bronze]

Really wish there was a realistically doable way to make lunge not so friggn' boring and simple.

[azure crescent]

Hopefully not lmao

Cerato’s way of attacking a stego is the same as carno’s except slower

[tall bronze]

I think a kick attack for Dryo is great, but the bite force buff I think is unnecessary if it gets a kick.

[somber sphinx]

Most likely not and hopefully not

[tall bronze]

Cera beating Stego is like a single Carno beating Stego

Theoretically possible? Yes.
Realistically possible? Don't even try.

Dum dum dino

[somber sphinx]

Both gets swatted by the stego in the end

[hollow canyon]

Exactly same questions but put Deino in there instead of Stego. What is supposed to even contest this goddamn thing?

With the absurd nerfs to Stego you people are suggesting Deino would be rolling over a Stego while also being completely untouchable to the rest of the roster and being able to oneshot the whole rest of the roster minus Stego

The fight between Stego and Deino RIGHT NOW is close

it's Stego favoured for sure but a good Deino can pull a victory off

with the changes that are being suggested Deino would be literally unstoppable in this game and murder Stego, which takes the same time to grow, without much trouble

well this is of course assuming that it's controlled by a competent player

[vivid aurora]

Stego is an extremely slow creature, ANYTHING that dies to it has to be a bad player. Stego has nothing going for it outside of its health and damage, it cannot run and it is easy to outrun. You cannot be ambushed by a stego if you arent afk.

[hollow canyon]

The game shouldn't be balanced around people that are bad at it

[vivid aurora]

Stegos in general are not a threat if YOU dont go up to their face since they cannot do anything to you unless you run straight towards them.

[hollow canyon]

It could face the issue of being rolled over by the animal which would then be the strongest in PvP in the whole game while also being able to oneshot the whole rest of the roster and being capable of just sodding off into the water where it's literally invulnerable to any other animal on the roster unless the player controlling it loses consciousness in front of their pc

Stego does need some QoL nerfs but that's it, the size of its herd should be decreased and it should be discouraged from grouping up in general but that's it

[vivid aurora]

grouping up with other Stegos is already a huge drawback, you will need a LOT more food than you can find.

[hollow canyon]

And no - multiplier of 3 isn't "fine" I'd literally murder every Stego that would come in my reach if it had that high of a multiplier on its head

[hollow canyon]

I see megapacks of them way too often

they also get to group up into a herds of 5 which is just bizarre for an apex tier herbivore

[vivid aurora]

Herbivores do tend to form much larger groups than carnivores. However I cannot say i have seen those megapacks.

The megapacks i often see is over 20 raptors on each server

[hollow canyon]

I see a megaherd of Stegos pretty much every time I play the game

[vivid aurora]

One issue with Stegos is kin killing.

[hollow canyon]

sometimes it's a mixpack where they have Deinos, Stegos sometimes Tenontos, Pachys and Utahs

but yea Stegos are one of the most common megapacking animals in my experience

[vivid aurora]

Oh right I've seen that

[winter iris]

Well, maybe 3 is a bit high yes, but I think the multiplier is currently 2 (like most of other animals), so could a 30% increase in damage make you murder that easily all the stegos?

[hollow canyon]

that's not right

Stego has the highest multiplier in the game

no other animal has a headshot multiplier of 2

I also don't know what you mean by "30% increase". 30% more damage than it takes now? or an increase of the multiplier of .3 putting it at 2.3?

Cause a 30% increase compared to the current one would absolutely make this a Deino favoured match up

[rain bane]

At the top, I wrote my thoughts about deinos and how to control their population. My position has not changed.

[normal wraith]

how would a server with set number of players per dino play out? My buddy and I discussed it and thought this might be an interesting breakdown of available slots per dino. 100 player slot per dino breakdown

TOTAL HERB 40 players
stego 10
tenonto 10
pachy 9
dryo 7
hypsy 4

TOTAL CARNOV 60 players
carno 13
utah 29
deino 12
ptera 6

thoughts?

for EVIRMA might i add

[golden coral]

First off, why would you have more total carnivores than herbivores? Second, no good, because what do you do when the population of your chosen server is full on that particular critter?

[rain bane]

Deino on land slower then stego. That I meant.

[golden coral]

Deinos are not meant to be on land, and have no reason to be on land as it stands. Maybe if they did have to be on land, it could be argued that they might need something (but probs more speed/stam then if anything, not better fighting abilities).

[normal wraith]

this is why i want a discussion, i couldn't decide what way to lean the scale maybe 60-40 herb favor is better i would not be apposed in the slightest, i think a system like this would make the gameplay more stable and less arcadie like the moshpits that happen in center now are. also maybe a dino specific que system or something? not sure

i thought going carnov heavy was good because herbs dont tend to kill and hunt eachother where as you know carovs kinda go for anything

[rain bane]

Yes, I know that. But they are slow on land, and stego dont. And according to the rule "I can run or I can kill", this time the stego can run, therefore it must be weakened to some extent. The reason the deinos come to land is to kill the stego. A normal stego won't go into the water to bite deino to death.

[golden coral]

Well, the basic issue is how to handle when you want to go on, but server goes "nah, full on that dino, sorry". Add a que, find another server, or what would you do? As for the numbers, well I'd personally have far more herbis than carnis, simply because that makes for a more reasonable ecosystem, or so I think. But I apologize if I sounded accusatory, if you have a good reason for favouring carnis over herbis, then I'll listen to those arguments!

[golden coral]

If a deino comes on land to kill a stego, it's doing it wrong in the first place.

And I don't count "shoreline" as land here, since you can attack there. But more so if you're following the stego inland, for some reason.

But you already have the "run or kill" circumstance, deino just stays in water and can't be touched. That rule doesn't apply to every specific biome or circumstance, but more so in general. Deinos have all they need to avoid stegos, whereas stegos do need to go drink.

@normal wraithThe goal of your idea isn't bad, but the solution is tricky at the least, because of the issue of being locked out of playing simply due to "right now too many people want to be the same thing you do". Adding a que could work, but then you got a second one, first to get a spot on the server, then to get a spot as your chosen dino. And you could have that conflict of "server has space but not my playable", which could be frustrating possibly. Especially if you have something invested in, and you don't have a way to get rid of it outside of the game. Like, if I have a utah, and I see "too many utahs" I could maybe kill that utah somehow in the menu, and go carno or something, but if I have a stego or deino, I probably do not want to do that.

[thin mantle]

“I must be able to run or fight a target”
Is not a standard you want to be referencing in regards to deino, because that makes it easier to justify NERFING deino than buffing it, or nerfing stego.
In the context of stego, you are immune to death when in the water, stay in the water and you won’t die, therefor you don’t need to fight stego…it’s that simple

[normal wraith]

i wonder if it would change the flow of the game so much so that it makes less popular dinos more fun due to the massive meta change, no more mega mega raptor packs ect ect, more small group/individual hunt/ be hunted play style could be promoted

[rain bane]

Let's go back to what I said above. How can deino kill a stego? A normal stego will not go into the water, so it will remain on the ground. A deino can’t grab a bite in the teeth either, therefore, in order to kill an adult stego, he will be forced to go to land. Deino is significantly slower than a stego on land, its jaws are much larger, so why can't it headshot a stego faster than it can now?
Yes, the deino is faster in the water, and that's okay, that's its habitat. If Deino could grab a stego (at least by the leg), that would be acceptable. But deino can't do that, and stego is part of the deino diet, so deino must hunt for it.
And in order to even the odds (stegos usually walk in groups), the deino must be an even more formidable opponent so that the stegos would be afraid of water. One such method is increasing the damage to the head of the stego.

[golden coral]

Well, no doubt something would change, but I'm not sure how well it'd actually go over. Most people dislike the idea of being locked out simply due to "now there's too many of my chosen playable", and on top of that, you'd have to then figure out what you'd want the ecosystem to look like. The second issue is that you're kind of both removing a bit of potential competition, as well as adding "cannibalism" for the reason of removing someone so your friend can join.

[golden coral]

Why do deino need to kill stego? Deino does not need to kill an adult stego, it's not an issue or a matter. And if you play correctly, you and your friend will kill that stego at the shoreline, so you don't need to be faster, because you're so close to your escape route anyway.

So that's not an issue. If you're right at the shoreline basking, and you're paying even an ounce of attention, no stego is going to "get you" before you've turned around and gotten into the water, at worst taking a tailhit or two.

[normal wraith]

you could maybe have it to where someone could lock in say utah and die over and over but as long as they are still "reserved" utah they dont need to worry about getting killed upon spawn, im sure something like that could solve that problem

[thin mantle]

It would definitely alter the dynamic of the server, but honestly I can only see that being absurdly annoying, especially when players are/will be maintaining a single dino over an extended period of time….so if someone logs into a server where they already have a dino, then the system is circumvented….if you need to wait to use your dino because someone else has taken your spot, then that’d be extremely annoying and basically turn the vast majority of time playing the game into waiting until you’re allowed to play it….nobody should be forced to play a class they dislike simply because there aren’t enough of them on, that’s a failure in design first and foremost for making the animal lack viablikuty or engagement

[rain bane]

Why do deino need to kill stego? - because stego is deino diet?

[golden coral]

@rain baneAlso you need to keep in mind, diet does not mean hunting the adults. You can grab and drown a stego up to 80%, 4T, you have plenty of stego to kill before it's "impossible".

On top of the fact that even a 4.5T stego is going to die very fast, even to a solo deino, so again, shoreline hunts are doable.

[thin mantle]

Juvi stegos and scavenging…..you mustn’t go for suicidal targets because you gain benefits from them, that’s just….lol

[golden coral]

You could add stego to carno diet, and that does not mean carno should ever hunt an adult stego, but it can run down juvies and possibly subs.

[thin mantle]

You could add stego to Troodon or velo’s diet as well….like seriously the skies the limit here

[golden coral]

Hm, could be doable yes. Though you also have the risk of people sitting in menu to guarantee their spot, even while they take a break.

[rain bane]

The increase in headshot damage does not mean that stego will be an easy snack for the deino. This will only force the stego to hide his weak point more often, to be more afraid of water (because you often drink water facing the river), to play more carefully.

[golden coral]

Excepg it will, because stego already dies very quickly to two competent deinos. Adding so it takes additionally 500 or 1k damage means you can just solo with very little, if any risk at all, to the deino.

[thin mantle]

Deino can already kill a bad stego solo or a decent stego in pairs, the buff is unnecessary

[golden coral]

And honestly, stego should not be afraid of a deino, any more than any other apex.

You're going to eventually have rex and trike and shant and others, and they're just going to ignore deino too most likely. No reason why stego should be an exception really.

[thin mantle]

Stego is the element keeping deino in the water….unfortunately that dynamics leaning is important for the stability of the game until something else can take its place, not that anything really SHOULD necessarily but that’s the hand we’ve been dealt

[golden coral]

Also as someone pointed out, real life stego had armor on neck and throat, so technically it should have resistance there, not added weakness :p

Hopefully we get that in the future, plus "full size" 8T stego!

[rain bane]

On the contrary, I think that deino should be the apex and compete with them. Because water is its realm, and all who approach it should be wary of it.

[golden coral]

But we've been told this is not the case, spino will take deinos, cheirus most likely will too. You're not a fighting apex as deino, you're a hunter.

[thin mantle]

That’s incredibly arbitrary, especially since spino is the aquatic apex, and that’d be contradictory to deinos purpose in game

[rain bane]

If it was also in the game model, I would not offer what I proposed.

[golden coral]

And even then, you could add more fighting for water engagements, without letting deino hunt terrestial apexes.

[thin mantle]

Like as for right now, ptera is the aerial apex, that doesn’t justify it soloing Utahs

[golden coral]

You know we can have mechanics without it being "visual" on the model right. I don't see an issue with adding it mechanically without it being visual, considering we got troodon and dilo venom and stuff.

Deino should by all means get better combat, but that still does not mean it should be taking on other apexes reliably.

[normal wraith]

this is a good point i didnt think about that issue. hmm more deep thought i need. it would be a bumber to have to wait a while to be able to play your big boy you put time on

[rain bane]

Comparison of poison (the presence of which should imply the presence of poisonous glands, which on the game model can be located in the area of the lower jaw) and the comparison of protection is incorrect. This is the same as introducing an armored anky and at the same time making it the weakest despite the armor.
Now the stego has an unprotected neck and head, which should show other players that "here it is, the weak point! aim here and kill!"

[golden coral]

Alright, so if you need a visual aspect, we could probably get that. See remodeled dilo, there's precedent now for changes.

[thin mantle]

Mhm, it’s a kind of barrier I hate to see in any game….reminds me of games like battlefront 2 but FAR worse….you’d have half a lobby spamming Darth Vaders icon in the spawn menu because someone else was playing him at the time…..it was awful

[golden coral]

And hopefully adding a bit of a "rough" patch as armor would work just fine.

[thin mantle]

Subdermal plating doesn’t exist?
That’s odd….since that’s exactly what stego had

[rain bane]

If the developers add more armor to the stego's head and neck, I won't mind. Then it will show why this place is not as weak as it looks now (now it looks like Deino can rip it off with one bite, to be honest).

[rain bane]

This is not enough to protect against deino jaws.

[thin mantle]

No animal in game has the necessary armor to survive a realistic head chomp from a deino, that’s not the point

[golden coral]

I'll keep that in mind then. Though the armor is mostly, I imagine, to prevent ripping and tearing the throat/neck, the whole bleed and all. From what I know, it's not armor that would prevent any great force like an anky has. Though I could be wrong there.

[thin mantle]

Literally no attack in the game dishes out a realistic intuitive amount of damage, deino’s attacks aren’t the only one

Realistically an Omni pounce would one shot the entire roster…..

Barring sauropods…..maybe

[golden coral]

I mostly know that stego did have fancy armor on the known "weak spot", which makes sense, if it was as weak as some seem to think, stego would probably have died out, especially if was also dumb as a brick with that tiny brain :p

[rain bane]

I said above that I proposed this idea based on already existing concept art (where the stego's head is torn off) and based on the visual component of the stego. And yes, it would be fine for me if the blow of the tail spikes to the head of a deino/rex/other apex was as crushing and dangerous as their bite to the head of a stego.

[thin mantle]

Appealing to stegos potential neck armor is dumb anyway, balance takes precedent regardless

[golden coral]

It's not, and I wasn't trying to argue that, more so that stego technically had armor there, and so the multiplier might not be that accurate. I'd personally, if we got armor properly, put it at 1.75 for head (and whatever for necks, I don't know what other critters have on neck and so on either), a bit higher than others, but not as weak as people might think. But this is more so for the rest of the roster, since deino still doesn't use its jaws like that in game, due to the lunge and grab.

[thin mantle]

So Utah should one shot every animal in game barring the sauropods and Anky……Stego should doing the same minus the sauropods….and deino should one shot everything in game as well? Like is this what we really want?

Basically every fight being decided by a single attack…..wooo

[golden coral]

Yes yes. I just want my accurate and full powered stego sometime in the future!

[thin mantle]

That’d be nice, tho remember, balance always takes precedent

[rain bane]

I see no reason for the Utah to take a one-shot to the head of a stego. Its jaws are not big enough to rip off its head. Injure, inflict bleeding - yes.
But I didn't offer a one-shot.

[thin mantle]

Utah is more than capable of slitting a stegos throat, plus I was referring to pounce, which would absolutely one shot it

[golden coral]

The issue is that deino could do the same to most things probably. Is there a reason a shant, or allo, or carno would not have it's head ripped off?

Do they have that much stronger necks compared to stego that their heads would resist that biteforce that deino is supposed to have?

[thin mantle]

Pounce is a logistically impossible attack, translating its consequences into game realistically would render Utah the most powerful solo hunter in the game

[rain bane]

I didn't think about this. But in general it sounds logical.

[thin mantle]

That’s exactly why the game is balanced unrealistically, so skill expression and matchups can exist

[rain bane]

Specifically, my idea was about stego, since deino cannot capture it. But in general, I would agree with the fact that Deino cut off the heads of other creatures as well.

[thin mantle]

If every fight was decided by a single attack….sperging would be viable

[golden coral]

What we could do is remove the stun on targets of a deino, so it only stuns itself. Then it'd be more reasonable to maybe rework the stego/deino matchup a bit.

[golden coral]

Well, you wouldn't be able to catch any of the other apexes, or even acro probably. Should they be ignored then, or what would you suggest there?

Might not even be able to catch a para possibly, depending on the size of that one.

[thin mantle]

This is just….ridiculous….deino shouldn’t have that kind of power, it already has a biome in which it’s the SECOND most powerful animal within it, AND has near complete and total invisibility when within it to anything above water, enabling it to Insta kill basically anything in game would be so hilariously stupid….

[rain bane]

With other apexes, a slightly different story, since the same rex jaws are almost commensurate with the jaws of a deino. Deino could inflict serious damage to the neck, but could not tear off his head.

But in general, in my idea, I did not propose to make a stego one-shot. Yes, it would be realistic in my understanding, but because of the game - wrong. But I would increase the damage to the head, which would lead to a decrease in the required number of bites to the head.

[golden coral]

I meant more so, should a deino just ignore the other apexes, or should it hunt them too?

Because at some point there'll be something you just can't do anything about, that will just stand in the water and ignore your presence.

[thin mantle]

Which is unnecessary since stego is already soloable

[golden coral]

If nothing else, brachio would just walk in, stomp you flat, and that'd be that.

Unless you're one of those that think deino should oneshot brachio on head when it drinks? :p

(Yes, that was an actual suggestion)

[thin mantle]

And it’s an entirely unnecessary fight you only partake in out of boredom and pride

[golden coral]

Yes, and as pointed out, lowering the amount of bites needed, will make deino pretty much unstoppable. Stego does not have the ability to both protect head and attack at the same time, so it'd make it more vunerable than it should be.

[thin mantle]

“But drinking should be terrifying to EVERYTHING, you should always be at risk of random death outside of your control”
-Bilbous Bungleton

[golden coral]

You can't both turn and swing, you have to do either or. So if you stop to attack, deino goes ham on head, if you move, deino can follow while you need to move far ahead that you can then stop and start swinging before deino catches up.

[thin mantle]

Plus since you attack with your face, the stego can’t trade headshots, it can only trade headshots taken, for body or tail hits given

[rain bane]

I believe that the deino, as a predator that cannot choose prey and just must hunt anything that comes up to its river, should in principle not have any specific diet. Unlike ground predators, deino cannot choose and run after ground game - it hunts for what comes to it. Therefore, if a rex approaches the water, the deino should be able to compete with it in the coastal zone.

Spino is a different situation. Its jaws are not capable of dealing as much damage as a deino can. To be honest, I don't think spino would be a good match for deino. The spino has all the ability to get out of the water and move on land, which is not the case for the deino. Therefore, in water, the deino must be stronger than the spino.

[rain bane]

I already suggested a solution to the problem with the unstoppable deino.

[thin mantle]

If spino will suplex an Anky onto its back, it’s tossing deino out of the rivers….as dumb as that may be….plus you don’t need to afford deino more damage as a result of it not being able to choose its targets, it can one shot over half the roster at no risk to itself already, it doesn’t NEED the strength

[golden coral]

Oh boy, well, that does not seem to match up with the devs vision at least. They've said deino will swim away from spino, not fight it. And I have no idea how you imagine it will compete with a rex. And then there's shant. Or anky.

My point was mostly that there's going to be some things you just can't hunt unless you give deino stupid amounts of power, or remove the lunge and does something else, that might be more reasonble to fight back against.

[thin mantle]

Here’s a lovely little size chart of everything deino Insta kills from stealth with zero counterplay….not including the smalls

It doesn’t need to fight apexes

[rain bane]

Not quite the right comparison of anky and deino. Anky is a hulking huge armored vehicle, his osteoderms tie his body together, which hinders his mobility (even despite his new concept art). Deino is a reptile with a high degree of mobility. If a spino grabs a deino, it can wriggle out and bite the person who grabbed it.

[golden coral]

I'm pretty sure it's been said that spino using its arms is why it'll take on deino easy.

[rain bane]

Why are you so attached to insta killing, if I didn’t talk about it at all..

[thin mantle]

The only element that I was even referencing was weight, Anky is a beefy mfker, if spino can manhandle that, it’ll manhandle deino….plus I’m not sure how deinos supposed to wriggle out of a spinos grasp….deino isn’t an agile animal, that’s a byproduct of being the size of a Trex….so I have no clue where this perception of yours comes from

[thin mantle]

I guess you’ve never heard me talk about deino before….this is a point I bring up with deino a lot…have been for many months…

[hollow canyon]

arguable tbh, Triceratops, Giganotosaurus and Tyrannosaurus could potenailly survive that

irl Deino bite is severely overestimated in terms of its damaging capabilities

[rain bane]

My perception of agility comes from the ability of the deino to turn sharply in the opposite direction (alt-bite), as well as the fact that the deino can easily spin in place (eating animation). If deino can do so, it will have no problem turning around and biting the one who grabbed him during the grab.

[hollow canyon]

It isn't as devastating as the Tyrannosaurus

[thin mantle]

Trike is the only one of the listed trio I could see surviving that, a deino gripping a rex or gigas lower jaw is ripping it off….ofc with thrashing

[hollow canyon]

well yes if it grips specifically the lower jaw it could maybe do that

[rain bane]

I don't think that Deino could tear off the lower jaw, but break it - completely.

[thin mantle]

Lower jaw and neck are all a deino would be grabbing in those engagements which is why I focus them…not that I want it to ofc

[hollow canyon]

the thing is that the theropods did a tonne of facebiting during their encounters

we don't see T.rexes running around with torn off jaws

Deino could theoretically tear off the mandible of a theropod but it's not something that would be happening very often

[golden coral]

I think we only got the death rolling anim cause rule of cool + demand. Not sure that should be seen as a realistic ability in combat. Same goes for alt bite, sure, you can throw your body around, but not if you're being held down perhaps.

[hollow canyon]

also - Giganotosaurus has a very armoured head, Tyrannosaurus less so but still pretty armoured

[hollow canyon]

That is not how any grab attack works in the game

[thin mantle]

Deino rotates with its torso, if the torso is the part of the body being grappled, then it’s not going to be able to utilize its ‘agility’, plus terrestrial death role on deino is already silly enough, no need to double down

[hollow canyon]

Deinosuchus wouldn't be "wriggling out" of the grip of something capable of holding down an Ankylosaurus

Having said that I don't think that Spinosaurus should necessarily be capable of holding down these two animals and killing them like that

[rain bane]

Now we cannot judge it at all. This is just my guess, based on the concepts of Baryonyx (which pulls off the pounced utah with its claws) and on the concept of Spino, which flips the anky. Until specific apexes come out, we will not be able to say whether it works like that or not.

[hollow canyon]

Baryonyx pulls of the pounced Utah with its claws but the chance is that's just how it's bucking is going to work, Pachy's concept portrays some anti-Utah shenganigans too in reality all this animal does is have a more effective bucking mechanism than the others.

[thin mantle]

Because when it comes to Omni, it’ll always be favored

[hollow canyon]

Concept arts are just concept arts, they are supposed to hype up a creature and potentially show off its abilities

they aren't necessarily meant to portray their sizes or how specific match ups will be going between animals

[thin mantle]

There’s a reason deino doesn’t decapitate most of its lungeable targets

Despite that being something it can do via the concept art

[rain bane]

Given the agility of crocodiles and alligators, I don't think a body grip will limit mobility. Grab by the neck - yes, but not by the body.
When people hold crocodiles and alligators, they fix them by the neck. If they are fixed by the body, they will be able to strike at the hands.

[hollow canyon]

There's been a discussion lately about how Para and Allo interactions are going to go where Dondi read it and ended up being just shocked that everyone was making so many assumptions about it based on the concept art

[thin mantle]

That’s because holding down their head make sure impossible for their jaws to open, in regards to Jaguars, they’re literally crushing the Caiman’s brain….it’s not a grapple meant to immobilize, it’s a grapple meant to instantly kill it….regardless the biomechanics of gators flipping around is centered in their torso

[rain bane]

I understand that the concepts don't show the final gameplay, but they do show an example of it. If the concept is shown "to the people", it means that the developers have approved it and consider it correct.

[thin mantle]

Tbh….I sorta consider concept arts useless….so many features within them either haven’t don’t or aren’t making into the game….

[rain bane]

In any case, we will not be able to predict what kind of gameplay is planned at the moment. Simply because the current stage of the game is too far from the introduction of apexes. It remains only to wait and see what will happen. I'm sure the developers will make interesting interactions between deino and other apexes.

[thin mantle]

A prime example being how Carno can’t immobilize a Utah by standing on its tail

[hollow canyon]

yes but the information they are meant to provide don't go as in depth as you seem to imply, you're trying to infer from them whether Spinosaurus will be capable of holding down a Deinosuchus or not, we really do not know how this mechanic is going to work

[rain bane]

I think that many things drawn on concepts are planned for introduction later. At least I hope so.

[thin mantle]

The introduction of apexes has come and passed, Update 2 ensures that

[hollow canyon]

however that is tbh completely irrelevant as you seem to be having the completely wrong impression

about the interactions between Spino and Deino

The way a confrontation between these animals has been described was

"Deino's best option is to swim away"

[rain bane]

Stego and deino, in my understanding, are not such apexes as rex or spino.

[thin mantle]

None of this changes what deinos purpose in game is, it’s not an apex killer, it’s ability is deliberately contrary to that, and it can easily retreat to the water if an apex threatens jt

[hollow canyon]

Spinosaurus will likely have the clear upper hand over Deino

[thin mantle]

Deino is as large as rex if not slightly smaller….I’m not sure what gives you the impression that they don’t belong to that class….unless you’re using the correct definition of apex

[rain bane]

Like concepts that change, there is a possibility that this will change. Developers very often introduce changes and change their position. Take at least the fact that they have been saying for a long period that all herbivores will be only AI.

[hollow canyon]

What in the world does that have to do with what they intend for a specific match up?

They also stated that Stego will have the upper hand over Deinosuchus

which it does

this hasn't changed at any point

[thin mantle]

And why would that change

[hollow canyon]

good question

[rain bane]

They are apexes, but at the "lower stage" in my understanding. Higher than the mid-tier, but lower than the apexes themselves. At least that's how I feel about them.

[thin mantle]

Especially since deino is the second most immune animal in the game currently

[hollow canyon]

every time something like this gets mentioned people go into some full-on denial mode "they might change their mind" and then complain when the devs go along with what they've planned

that is - Deinosuchus losing against Stegosaurus or Spinosaurus

[thin mantle]

Well, your perception in regards to deino is definitely wrong if that’s how you classify it, because it’s absolutely big enough, I’m not sure what gives you the impression it’s not…i really don’t

Unless ofc, you’re using the correct definition of apex

In which case not even giga would be considered an apex

[hollow canyon]

well technically not a single animal in the game was an apex in the biological sense because nothing was at the highest trophic level

Rexs died to Dilos, Dilos died to Allos, Allos died to Gigas, Gigas died to Rex

[rain bane]

Developers constantly change their plans for some creatures. This happens much more often than the preservation of previous plans. I won't complain if the spino pulls up over the deino for a logical reason (like using claws or mass, not that the spino will bite harder than the deino).

[hollow canyon]

Which animal have they changed their plans for?

Aside from Puertasaurus I suppose

[thin mantle]

At this point I’ll just defer to occam’s razor and call it a night

[hollow canyon]

and maybe Giganotosaurus

[thin mantle]

Was nice chatting with all of you but I gotta get to bed

[hollow canyon]

Speak to you later

[rain bane]

Previously, they didn’t even want to call stego an Apex, stego was closer to the mid-tier with his HP level. But now it is beginning to be classified as an apex.
Previously, the developers wanted to make all sauropods AI. Changed their mind.
Previously, the developers wanted to remove all herbivores and make them AI. Changed their mind.
Previously, the developers wanted to make the dryo a slow and burrowing creature. Now they have added the ability to move quickly, but digging is not (I'm generally afraid that dryos will remove the burrowing mechanic).
Previously, the developers wanted to make a feathered version of the utah, but now there is no news about it anymore.
Previously, the developers wanted to make pachy like the one who breaks and runs away in fear. But now pachy is not like that.
Previously, the developers wanted to make the carno extremely clumsy, but now its maneuverability is very good.
Previously, the developers wanted to make a stego like someone who bleeds very quickly. Its holding up very well now.
And so on.

[rain bane]

Good night!

[hollow canyon]

They did not want to remove all herbivores and make them AI - herbivores were supposed to be AI in the very beginning of the game it later on got changed to them being playable too because the playerbase wanted to play them.
They were always hesitant to call either Stego or Deino an apex and have been going back and forth on whether either of them is an apex.
Dryo was never meant to be slow, burrowing mechanic for it has been popping on and off and there hasn't been much clarity on that(I honestly stopped following whether it will have it or not in Evrima).
Feathered version of the Utah has evolved into us getting an actual realistic Utahraptor as a new separate playable later down the line.
Pachy not being the way you describe there is more of an issue with how the game works, the intention for the animal to work that way is still there which is the reason why its damage has been gutted.
I would need source on Carno being supposed to be extremely clumsy. It was supposed to be a small game hunter, you're not going to succeed at that while being extremely clumsy, besides they actually nerfed the hell out of its agility as time went on.
Idk when Stego was supposed to bleed very quickly.

All of these are things that have never been set in stone, I'm asking about them changing their mind about some specific interaction. E.g. if they ever went from "Giga will have the upper hand over T.rex" to "T.rex will be winning against Giganoto more often than not". So far any statements like that made during Evrima's development are holding up very well. The only potential change I can think of is making Deinosuchus bigger than it was initially supposed to be but as I said before - they've always been hesitant and unclear about its position and it was always oscillating between being an apex and a mid tier.

[rain bane]

They still hesitated about the position of carno. It is either an ambush predator, as he was imagined at an early stage in the development of EVRIMA, or a field runner, which he is now.

Stego was supposed to bleed out quickly in patch ~2-3 (as i remember). A few utahs could cause a stego to expire in a matter of minutes.

[hollow canyon]

I've never seen them indicating Carno to be an ambush hunter

[hollow canyon]

It wasn't "supposed to" bleed out quickly lol

update 2 Stego was just a trash animal

they needed to buff it because it was the biggest waste of time in the game

it wasn't bleeding out, Utahs were just killing it with raw damage

in ~30-40 seconds

that wasn't intentional, you're for some reason taking the state of balance on some patch and then trying to frame it as evidence of dev's intention of how the game was supposed to work

[rain bane]

I remember it was mentioned somewhere. At the very least, they wanted to make it so that it developed great speed, but for short distances. So that there are problems with stam. But then they changed that, and actually for the better. Almost all of the developer changes have brought good things to the game, and I'm happy about that.

[hollow canyon]

that's not how it works, they never outright said whether they want Carno to be an ambush hunter, they never said they want Stego to bleed out fast

[hollow canyon]

I have only seen that being mentioned by the community, The devs only called it a "nightmare of small animals" and a "hunter stalking the plains" or something along those lines.

They've also done the opposite - they've reduced Carno's stam

initially it wasn't meant for short distances at all

this thing could traverse half the map before breaking a sweat

its stamina got nerfed with the global stamina nerf later on

because people here on islecord said that the stamina pools were ridiculous and every animal ran for an absurd length of time

[rain bane]

I think that you are right, because now, sorting through my memories, almost all the false statements of the developers were before the development of EVRIMA. After its formation, everything was quite consistent.

[golden coral]

Dryo was never slow if I recall correctly, unless you mean very old prog dryo possibly (also dryo should not burrow, it does not need it nor does it fit). Most of those are not concept arts. And calling stego apex, I think was strange, but it also depends on if they looked at current "legacy" stego or proper stego, or even prog stego (that certainly was a dangerous critter, doing more bleed than anything else in the game at times). The devs have instead said they will make a correct utah, and rename our current one omni. The rest is kind of balance "issues" to more or less degree. But I wouldn't call carno that agile, and I don't recall stego ever being said to bleed out quickly.

[hollow canyon]

yes, that's my point exactly, I'm not saying there won't be a patch where Deino will be beating a Spino

there very likely will be a patch like that

but that won't be intended

[rain bane]

The same statement with the ambush carno was more about the legacy even at the moment when he had an acceleration after crouch.

[hollow canyon]

Stego was getting torn apart by Deinos on 3.5

the very next update changed that completely and put the match up in favour of Stego again

[golden coral]

That sounds more like a balance issue. You sure you're also not conflating that with the damage and how utahs could just shred one before it could even buck them off? And carno is, well, neither an ambusher nor a field runner at the moment really. But carno has always been said to do one thing while doing something else really well, so they're at least consistent on that one!

Also statement concerning apexes might incude acro, so there's that too!

[rain bane]

It is possible that I am confusing balance with plans. Because some of the developers' introductions previously seemed like something they would always like to have in the game, but then they returned the balance back to normal.

In any case, I'd really like to see how deino and stego interact with apexes. But that is still a long way off, as far as I know.

[golden coral]

I imagine deino will swim away, stego will walk away while keeping them at bay. Or so I hope, because making stego a "sniper turret" is just bad.

[rain bane]

It's hard for me to predict what's going to happen. I still absolutely love the stego version with its huge bleed.

[golden coral]

I miss it too, but there is that issue of killing the predator only after you're already dead. It's not ideal for a defensive purpose.

[rain bane]

It is possible that in order to compete with rex and giga stego will increase the bleed. Yes, they will not kill them with blows so quickly, but they will inflict a lot of blood, because of which the Rex will have to end the battle faster than they would like. 🧐

At the very least, I would like stegos to still have the highest bleed in the game.

[golden coral]

Considering we got omni being the high bleeder right now, I doubt it. But we'll see, giga might also be up there competing when it comes to bleeding stuff out. And yeah, I guess they could up the bleed percentage for stegos attacks, do something similar to omnis to make it more lethal in that way.

[rain bane]

I agree with you, but I think, that stego bleed should be more then utah bleed

[golden coral]

Since bleed "damage" is based on raw damage, technically stego does the most bleed, it's just that omnis have a higher percentage of bleed per damage done, hence why their pounce is so lethal. So you'd have to change that around most likely.

[rain bane]

I would still like to change this and make the stego's bleed bigger, but not now, I want to do that when there are more apex predators.

[azure crescent]

@rain bane your suggestion implies anything with a small head should have a huge multiplier for it

teno's head is the same size as stego's, should its head also get ripped off in a few bites from a carno?

[frail bobcat]

good point

[rain bane]

I don't mind doing this if also increase the damage from a tailhit to the carno's head, since such a strike cannot remain without a trace.

But in general, the teno's head-to-body ratio is not as different as the stego's. Therefore, the stego should have a greater difference - the body is more protected, the head is less.

You are also comparing carno and deino jaws, which are completely different. The carno's jaws are weak and not designed to tear something, they are designed to strike like a saw. Deino jaws can simply compress what will be between them.

Although in game the carno bite damage is stronger than the utah bite, I am sure that the carno bite will then be much weaker than the same allo or alberto bite, and it will be right if they kill the teno in the head very quickly.

[azure crescent]

I'm not, you literally said that, and i quote "a few bites to the head from a carno can “tear it off”"

i'm not comparing them, i'm using what you said

Stego's and teno's head are quite literally the same size, teno's might even be actually a bit shorter and thus slightly smaller than stego's

[rain bane]

I said _ for example,_ a few bites to the head from a carno can “tear it off"

I wrote this as an example, not as a statement of what needs to be done.

And I wrote purely about stego, without mentioning other species. Of course, if the idea of tearing off heads is introduced as on concepts, it will affect all dinosaurs.

[neon willow]

Honestly I think it's a bad idea purely from the perspective of one or two shotting an animal that took 5 hours of effort to grow. And that applies across the board; it's the same reason people are extremely uncomfortable with guns being added, because of the potential for 1-2 shotting apexes like rex if you have good aim and they permit enough realism with calibers and such

[hollow canyon]

This is not correct at all:
A/ Carno's jaws aren't weak
B/ They aren't designed to strike like a saw
C/ They can very much tear something

[rain bane]

Are you talking about a real carno or a game carno? Because the real one had an extremely weak lower jaw, weak bite force, and, again, numerous teeth for cutting off pieces of meat. The jaw itself had little mobility for swallowing large pieces.

[rain bane]

This problem could be partly solved if the growth time of the stegosaurus were lowered.

[hollow canyon]

Irl Carno, none of that is the case. Carnotaurus has a quite impressive biteforce according to either of the new studies, the teeth aren't meant for slicing, you seem to be confusing it with Allosaurus which indeed had numerous, relatively small teeth that worked like a saw.

Carnotaurus beats out Suchomimus, Ceratosaurus and even Allosaurus(the last one at parity) in terms of its biteforce.

It also has an extremely stress resistant mandible which could withstand very high forces

So this stuff about it having "weak lower jaw" is completely untrue.

[rain bane]

No, I'm not confusing it with an allosaurus, I was checking the same wikipedia right now, and many other sources prove my words, for example this. I would look at the new study you're talking about because I don't know it.

https://www.dinosaurhome.com/carnotaurus-research-part-4-bite-force-and-finale-15446.html

[hollow canyon]

old

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.24602

[azure crescent]

Wikipedia is kind of a hit or miss generally

For paleo stuff atleast

[hollow canyon]

This is from last year, scroll down and pay attention to both the table showing the biteforces off non-tyrannosaurid theropods and to the chat with stress resistances - Carnotaurus has a very impressive jaw compared to pretty much all the other theropods and loses mainly to tyrannosaurids at parity

[rain bane]

Thank you, reading right now

[azure crescent]

Carnotaurus along with most other abelisaurs had pretty strong bites iirc

[hollow canyon]

I've got another one from this year if you want one more

[rain bane]

Yep, that would be nice

[hollow canyon]

indeed, they were also less about slicing and more about gripping from what I recall

[azure crescent]

Kind of like crocodile teeth or in a different shape?

[hollow canyon]

I believe so

[wraith relic]

Why are you guys still arguing about stego, we all know dryo should one shot it

[azure crescent]

Also kind of off topic but the topic of biteforce reminds me, didn’t utah have a biteforce around the same as a cerato’s?

Which for its size is insane?

[wraith relic]

Dryo gods must be appeased with op dryo

[rain bane]

I would be grateful if you will share this

[wraith relic]

[hollow canyon]

I've DMed it to you, don't want to spam too much offtopic/paleotalk stuff here

[rain bane]

Thank you!

[hollow canyon]

You're welcome

[hollow canyon]

I have never ever seen Utahraptor's bite force estimate

[azure crescent]

I wouldn't be surprised if it had a stupidly strong bite tbh

[hollow canyon]

same tbh, I wouldn't be shocked but I simply have never seen an estimate for it done by anyone

[neon willow]

I mean I would be okay with reducing growth times slightly across the board (I don't think anyone particularly enjoys spending 5-6 hours trying to grow an apex, being killed at 70% by adult low/mid tiers, and having to restart), but the fact of the matter is that stego, like deino is a low apex/high mid tier animal, and they both have growth times to match

[rain bane]

As someone was told above, stego is a full-fledged apex like rex or giga, but deino is a high mid-tier/low apex.

However, I still see stego closer to the high mid tier 🧐

[neon willow]

Then that solidifies that the stego shouldn't have a shorter growth time if they truly are apexes

If you were to reduce stego growth times, you would also need to reduce growth times pretty much across the board

[rain bane]

Yes, I understand. But if make my idea with a big weak spot in the head, lowering the growth time will be necessary, since such stegos will die more often. Here even more questions arise about the balance of deino and its growth, and other apexes 🧐

Honestly, I'm already tired of discussing my idea with stego head.

[neon willow]

Yes. But even if you reduced stego to a 3.5 hour grow (a huge reduction; currently it is 5 hours), there still remains the problem of: I don't think many people would play something slow, with a bad turn rate, that takes 3.5 hours to grow, and which can be 1-2 shot in an area where they don't really have any defense or offense at all

In short, I don't think it makes for engaging gameplay, however realistic it may be

[rain bane]

Well, stego used to have a flair for it, and I loved stego for that - high damage, but low hp (in head by idea, generally in legacy). However, we must not forget that the body and tail will remain the same armored, and hitting the head is not so easy.

[neon willow]

And that brings up the question not only of apex growth times, but mid tier growth times. If stego grows in 3.5 hours, then carno, allo, and others may need reduced growth times as well

[rain bane]

Here it is already necessary to proceed from who the stego is. If the apex - then of course. But if the mid-tier is high, then changing the growth time of carno, allo and others is no longer so necessary.
But I wouldn't go down to 3.5 hours. Down to 4 or 4.5 - perhaps, but no less. Yet his head is not so weak as to die from two bites. As discussed above, about 4 bites from a deino to the head is generally more realistic.

[neon willow]

Maybe, but I'm not sure the head is so hard to hit as to justify a giant multiplier. Things with bigger mouths, and slow movements and turns themselves will struggle (like deino), but there's a whole bunch of midtiers that will be more like the Utahraptor in being able to outmaneuver the stego... And biting a stegos head as a Utah is not so hard to do-- just dodge the tail with agility and you're golden

Adjusting head multipliers will affect balance with everything, not just deino

Utah's are of course low tier, but there are other mid tiers coming which will likely fill a similar niche in terms of agility if not stamina

[rain bane]

Yes, you are right about that. But when I created the idea, I mostly thought specifically about deino hit in stego head. It still doesn’t fit in my head how such jaws can’t do huge damage. I didn't think much about other predators before that. But I also don’t want to increase the damage to the jaws of the deino, since the increase in damage will also increase how much damage croc will deal to the body of the stego, and I would not want to increase the damage to the body.

[neon willow]

Idk, I rather think it's probably best to chalk it up to the fact that while you could theoretically solo a rex with a Utah... It's probably not the best matchup for it. Same idea with deino fighting stego. You can do it and win, but fighting other apexes is really not what deino is specialized for, so it's harder to do

[rain bane]

The problem with the deino being not intended for apex hunting is that apex will not be afraid of water and will calmly come up to drink it. And the developers are constantly hinting that a big threat will be hiding in the water. What is this threat, if not deino?

[neon willow]

And in all honesty... In general, most animals hunting with teeth and claws don't go for headshots anyways irl. The skull is very hard to break, whereas ripping out a jugular vein, clamping down on the trachea, ripping apart leg tendons, and generally causing massive hemorrhaging is easier to achieve, even in modern species that do have bone crushing bites

It's more a thing that hunters with bullets that can pierce bone easily do for a quick kill

[rain bane]

Well, my idea is more calculated on the fact that, when tearing off the head, the tearing occurs just on the cervical vertebrae, which are the least protected...

[neon willow]

Sucho, spino, bary.... There's a lot of aquatic carnivores. Honestly my bet for aquatic apex fighting is probably spinos

[rain bane]

I don't think the spino will be strong enough to take down the rex... 🧐 At least I don't imagine it. In my understanding, the spino is more for those who are less than it.

[neon willow]

Still... I don't know of any modern crocodilians that kill by ripping off the head. Partially because they probably don't get enough leverage for it-- to rip you have to hold on both ends. Deino I think would have a similar issue

I know they death roll, but while I've seen them death roll the neck and legs, I don't think I've seen them do it to the whole head at once

[rain bane]

Well, let's be honest, today's crocodiles are not as big as deinos. But if you take the ratio of some crocodile to smaller prey... In captivity, crocodiles often tear into pieces the food they are given - for example, they have no problem tearing off a chicken's head.

[rain bane]

Yes, that would be interesting with death rolling the legs too

[neon willow]

Maybe, but then the rex will be balanced by other terrestrial apexes rather than aquatics. Sure, an adult rex may have nothing to fear from deino... But subs and juvis certainly do. And even then, the foolish rex who tries to swim across a river will likely meet it's doom there

[neon willow]

Okay but comparing a 300lb croc/alligator to a 10lb chicken, vs an 8 ton croc to a 6ton stego... The ratio is massively different. Also chicken heads are not at all firmly attached -- humans can behead chickens without tools

[rain bane]

However, in order not to be bored in the adult stage, you also need to save some enemies there 🧐 . For example, to not to have safe water, and fear of this every time when you drink. But I don't represent competitors in Rex, except perhaps other rexes or a group of gigas against singles.

[neon willow]

Yeah death rolls would be cool. But I think I heard they devs weren't doing missing limbs, because then you have to figure out how to balance a carno that had a leg ripped off, but otherwise survived the encounter... T_T

Maybe as a finisher animation, though?

[rain bane]

Yes, the comparison is not particularly true, but I mean that heads are still torn off. The head of a chicken in the jaws of an alligator is roughly the size of a head of a stego in the jaws of a deino. But yes, a chicken has much less protection for its neck and head.

[tall bronze]

Limb removal is still for corpses/probably executed players (so the player is dead but the creature is still alive), just not living players.

[rain bane]

This mechanic would be interesting, because then bipedal predators valued their legs even more, and were even more afraid of the same anky or pachy. You can't run on one leg!

[neon willow]

Right, exactly

[neon willow]

Well yes. And to some extent I almost think the camera lock is intended to help with this. Sure, you may not have a solo deino/spino rushing from the river. But you can't see if another rex, trike, giga, etc is sneaking up behind you. And for that matter, even spino

Idk, it feels like something that would be cool if stegos were only AI, but as they are other players, the devs need to respect the time and effort they put into growing their dinosaurs, just like everyone else

[rain bane]

With camera blocking, the view of each dinosaur also needs to be taken into account. The same rex will not be able to look back, and the stego will have more vision. 🧐 But I don't understand why you can't just turn your face while drinking/eating, like in Legacy.

[neon willow]

Yes, herbis with side facing eyes should be able to see more. But, as we were discussing rex, which had (from what I hear) some pretty strongly forward facing/depth perceiving eyes... He likely wouldn't be able to see very well to the side of him without turning his head, and probably not at all behind. Idk anything about legacy, as I haven't really played it

[rain bane]

In legacy just while drinking and eating your dinosaur turns its head with camera, which does not happen in evrima. And I really don't understand why xDDD

[tall bronze]

I don't recall seeing a drinking animal ever turn it's head now that I think of it 😮 Not saying it's impossible, got me thinkin'

[winter iris]

Actually, animals with front eyes have a better view generally because they are able to focus objects and elaborate their distance from it. Side eyes have a better side view but a poorer sight in general

And it would be difficult to replicate different sights in game tbh

[neon willow]

I did say rex had good depth perception, but that he likely couldn't see well out to the side... Which is particularly important if, as I was discussing, the head is locked because you are drinking from a river. The issue was never how well rex could see, but his field of view

[thin marsh]

my xray button an setting doesn't work or appear

[winter iris]

Oh ok, my bad. Anyway, I think it would honestly be basically impossible to implement different sights in game. Because otherwise other dinos should not be able to see clearly in front of them

[stark knoll]

In the future, please use #🔧-evrima-troubleshooting-🔧 to seek help fixing the game

1. If running The Isle, exit the game.
2. Press the Windows key
3. Type %localappdata% then press Enter.
4. Find "TheIsle" folder. Open it.
5. Open the "Saved" folder.
6. Delete the "Config" folder. Note: This will reset any of your custom settings to their defaults.
7. Restart the game. The issues should be fixed.

[neon willow]

I tend to agree. Honestly I think the closest they could get is possibly field of view limitations (via camera rotation lock). Otherwise it's kind of limited by the fact that we're humans viewing the game, and slight blur to simulate lack of focus or depth perception would likely cause a ton of eye strain

[winter iris]

To be completely honest , this idea of sight fields, camera blocks etc. is extremely unnecessary to be implemented in game generally speaking and at this stage in particular

My opinion of course

[thin marsh]

thank you

[analog mirage]

Literally what is a Dryo gonna use a drop kick for other than troodon/Juvies. At that point it’s probably better off just pecking them

[storm dock]

i believe pachy needs a buff or utah needs a nerf

hear me out utah right now does insane bleed with a less than reputable ability to use a 0.5 second jump animation that can hit from any direction which is death to pachys but on the other hand pachys have the fracture mechanic i understand that pachy is ment to be a glass cannon but when cannons hit their supposed to scare an enemy enough to back off but fracturing a utah does almost nothing when they make a mistake their still faster than pachy with fracture im fine with pachys matchup against others like carno its what i expect but 95% of my blood vs a slight reduction in speed and maybe 1/4 health damage is not exactly a fair trade

[analog mirage]

Pachy also doesn’t have a good bloodpool making it easy to bleed out

I like how people complain about Utah being op when pachy/Carno are well known to bleed out quickly

[storm dock]

well that being correct pachy has a low blood pool my point still stands 2 creature of similar size with one being a huge advantage in surviveability

[analog mirage]

If a pachy head or leg fractures a Utah it gets the advantage quick

[golden coral]

So it's more so that carno and pachy needs better bleed resist, than omni doing too much bleed? Though omni does do a lot of bleed, possibly a bit too much really for how easy and safe that pounce generally is. Also, could just crank up pachys buck power a bit more, just make it so it throws off omni almost instantly and there you go, much harder to pounce it now.

[storm dock]

but getting a leg fracture is extremely difficult compared to utah hit within hitbox safety pounce

[analog mirage]

My main issue is that a single Utah can essentially take a Carno to 50% blood with a pounce since Carno relys heavily on running and it gets punished almost too much

[golden coral]

Should just make pachy buck extremely effective, and we also get the concept "anti-omni" style there. You can still hunt pachies, but just not pouncing them, more or less, unless you got at least a pair, where it'd be more effective.

[golden coral]

Yeah, due to the bleed resist nerf. Not sure whoever thought that was a good idea.

[analog mirage]

I’d revert it since Utah finally got fixed which was the main issue with it

So then immediately nerfing it’s competition after being fully fixed wasn’t a good idea

As pachy it’s usually best to just run if you run into a pack of Utahs since if you fight you are guaranteeing a death

But people play it like it needs to be a murder machine and usually end up dying in the process

[storm dock]

that the problem you cant run and u cant force them back

you could fracture every one of them but if they pounce u once your dead

even if for a split second

[analog mirage]

I’d decrease stamina needed for the attacks and body fracture more lethal. Like making you more vulnerable to damage

Also make pounce less magnetic because it’s almost too magnetic rn where you basically stand still and win

[storm dock]

utah has become the dilo of evrima

[analog mirage]

Which is a good thing as it keeps big Dino populations low. Just needs more competition honestly

[storm dock]

but since the devs also removed the ability to wallow at rivers were limited to what two mud spots

[analog mirage]

Add Dilo, Cerato and bary to even out the carnivores and not have 20 of each

[storm dock]

but the current problem is now we have packs of raptors bleeding everything in the map

[analog mirage]

Cause there’s only two land carnivores to even choose from

[frail bobcat]

I think its 4 or 5 (which is not much better)

[storm dock]

yeah but their so spread ou that its not funny and also 5 spots for 100 players

fair enough on the carnis man but thats more a slow developer problem thats most likely not gonna be fixed soon

[analog mirage]

Wallowing does need to come back to rivers to help players out more

[storm dock]

and funny story ive actually only died to raptors twice

[analog mirage]

It’s not that Utah is overpowered. Just a big list of minor things that all add up over time

[storm dock]

ive died to bleed many due to mostly random pt chasing me after i excvape or the utahs give up on hunting

idk if their cheating or not but im pretty sure they are

[frail bobcat]

The problem is that they fix all the weak points of a animal

[storm dock]

those zero turning infinate stam pts

[calm ibex]

wdym zero turning, anyone can do it by mastering flight and usage of Z

[storm dock]

without the button of z and i mean turning on a dime

[calm ibex]

it just takes practise to get it down to muscle memory, but eventually you can hover over target spam biting

[analog mirage]

Ptera is fine as it is I don’t see the problem

[storm dock]

their pt doesnt do the z animation

i trhink the bleed does kinda need a slight tweak tho

[analog mirage]

It’s more a issue with mixpacking rather than Ptera itself

[storm dock]

i think it sould be bleed damage based rather than damage based'

[analog mirage]

Bleed is fine. We just need wallowing to be more accessible

And possibly a bucking touch up

[storm dock]

yeah

and optimazation but that too much to ask of the devs

[hasty coyote]

bleed is based on the raw damage you deal, except with utah pounce which does about 3x the bleed iirc

but how much bleed you take is also based on like 10 factors, so its very unpredictable

[storm dock]

thank u for the info but i ment twords something like bleed fall off so that low damage like a babys peck of a pt or from some other infinte doesnt keep u bleeding

[hasty coyote]

hp, stam, food, water, and movement are all factors (plus a few I prob forgot)

[hasty coyote]

oh so like a damage minimum for bleed? man I hope so.

[storm dock]

also ive noticed does amount of blood effect stam regen

[hasty coyote]

yeah, lower blood means you regen stam slower. at about half bleed you basically don't regen at all.

[storm dock]

ive noticed

thought i might ask ab that while im here

but they do need to fix the current map if they want people to keep playing it

had a guy w a 4090 still struggle in some spots

[analog mirage]

That’s why we are getting gateway

[hasty coyote]

They're making a new one atm, and they only have 1 map maker.

[storm dock]

i know they do but i would like to see this map flourish

[frail bobcat]

You did not forget anything

[storm dock]

were it not for them saying a bigger map than v3 while also only using about 1/4 of it

[hasty coyote]

Most of spiro wasnt made by professional map designer (iirc it was dondi who made most of it) since they hadn't hired Jace yet. So they decided to just let jace make a new map that is actually designed well, rather than try to put out the dumpster fire of spiro for now.
I'm honestly excited to see what type of terrain we can fight on at gateway, should shake up the balance quite a bit tho.

[storm dock]

hopefully

but i hope it doesnt just get legacyed

you know

deleted after spiro becomes actually playable

[hasty coyote]

no they said they want them both, just spiro wont be worked on for a while as gateway is the new priority.

[bronze crow]

In update 4 I got consistent 60fps which I was happy with, now I get consistent 30fps and usually drops to 15

That’s why I’m gonna get a 3080

[bright oasis]

Devs have said they plan on having multiple maps with different biomes in the future so I dont see them deleting it.

[frail bobcat]

I see them deleting it cause its horrible performancewise

[bright oasis]

Idk how map development works but I'm sure they could have their map dev work on it to get it to perform better, unless it's too messed up for that now.

[azure crescent]

@muted cliff dryo knocking over somthing 3.75 times its own size is a bit much, no?

i don't think a dryo should ever fight an adult utah

[thin mantle]

Tbf that's not at all unreasonable as far as logistics, it should be assessed whether or not it'd make dryo imbalanced or not

And tbh I don't know.......I'd have to think on it more, I don't think dryo having a stun and run mechanic for utah is necessarily bad....

[azure crescent]

Okay, let me word this better. I'm okay with giving dryo combat capability. I'm all for it. But...a utah?

Anything bigger than a utah is too much for a dryo to fight imo

[thin mantle]

It's a creature it barely has more stamina than, and is MUCH larger and stronger than it, and dryo's agility is negligible....so....I don't really even see this as combat capability instead of just another mechanic that helps it escape

[azure crescent]

It should be encouraged to turn around and flee from those

[azure crescent]

Actually no, dryo has more stam

[thin mantle]

That's what I said

[azure crescent]

I've tested it this patch

[azure crescent]

Ah

[azure crescent]

But, it doesn't need it, if it can reliably always escape if it has above like 80% stam

[thin mantle]

well technically no creature needs any mechanics if it can just run away from anything threatening it, I think it makes dryo more interesting if it has one tho

[azure crescent]

Right, i'm fine with that mechanic existing, and i like the purpose, I just feel that a utah is too much to knock over

Maybe a short stun, but def not a knock over

[thin mantle]

It's definitely not as far as logistics, if for balance purposes it's just a stun then fine but it's not at all unreasonable

[azure crescent]

i'd rather a stun since it can punish an overly cocky dryo player more efficiently

[thin mantle]

I mean...a utah can instakill a dryo with the same effort, so a knockdown is again, not unreasonable, since dryo still does no damage...I'd wanna see both models tested

[azure crescent]

A utah can instakill a dryo, if the dryo is foolish enough to let that happen (or if it was ambushed)

[thin mantle]

The same applies to utah, they're the same speed with a negligible difference in agility

[azure crescent]

Not really, because a dryo can't instakill a utah last i checked

[thin mantle]

That's exactly my point, it's a far greater risk for far lesser rewards even with a full knockdown

[azure crescent]

That's fair enough i guess

Maybe a really short knock down i'd say

[thin mantle]

Meaningful enough to increase the gap ofc

I'd see it being used most in a traveling group with juvis or subs that are slower

Since they can't run from a utah

[wraith relic]

My intentions were to make dryo be able to defend against anything under 100 kg

[native tendon]

the dryo drop kick is a good idea but would be pretty op in mixpacks

like a dryo stuns a utah and the dryo's carno friend can just charge and utah got no chance

very abusable

[tall bronze]

I mean while I personally don't like the idea of Dryos drop kicking Utahs, migration may help with the mixpacking issue.

Since stuff will basically have their preferred biomes now.

Not that you can't ever leave. Just unwise.

Who knows. A Carno may live completely opposite of Dryo (doubtful though but still a neat thought)

[wet sleet]

What if I told you Carnos can stun Utahs by themselves without having to mix pack with anything?

[native tendon]

Yeah but that needs some element of skill, you can juke a Carno ram but when you're stunned there's nothing you can do

Add another small stunner that takes hardly any time to grow and you get plenty of balance problems

[wet sleet]

I don't think a dropkick is necessarily easier to hit than the charge, but I get the growth time argument.

[keen plover]

Balancing around mixpacks is pointless. Literally any combo of playables can be 'OP'.

[wraith relic]

Bruh my idea wasn’t supposed to be this op, kick only works on any thing smaller than dryo, not fully grown Utahs

[hasty coyote]

My only issue with allowing a dryo to knockdown a utah is that it’s a larger stun range than pachy. Pachy is literally built for combat and has some very large stun ranges, but can only stun things up to 3.6x its size. If dryo, something that isn’t supposed to be very combat capable, is able to knockdown something 3.75x it’s size, that is an absolutely MASSIVE stun range.

Plus, I don’t think a drop kick works well for when dryo actually needs to defend itself the most, in its burrow.

[wraith relic]

Ye my idea was to stun things maybe 0.75 times it’s size

[analog mirage]

Dryo is literally so small there’s no reason for it to be able to knock down a Utah. All it needs is a proper dodge so it can just evade anything

[tall bronze]

Yeah I don't really think it should be messing with Utahs offensively at all unless it's a juvie. But I still like the idea of a kick for it to deal with stuff it's size or smaller. Like Troodons or Ovis messing with your nest.

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, don’t underestimate dryo’s damage to juvies. I played it for a but not too long ago. Juvie utah decided to try and pounce me, but I bucked it out of stam. So I pecked it to death in that few second stun lol. It was funny to me, but not it’s parent who started chasing me afterwards :/

[hollow field]

wtf carno is so broken

running around with 10% filled stomach just trying to prolong the inevitable starvation

complete waste of time unless u run 2/3 pack around in hotspots imo.

[hollow canyon]

it's been like that for some time now, just play something else until the devs decide to reverse some of the nerfs this animal has been bombarded with for the past year

[keen plover]

Play in a duo or trio and getting food is a guarantee. Since then you're able to hunt packs / herds of animals.

[small ether]

Lol what packs and herds? The map is barren most of the time, for a number of reasons

[stark spear]

the fact that a ptera can kill a 70% carno by pecking it to death is an absolute joke. If they peck anything over three times their size they should fall out the sky as if they hit a tree. Just died to ptera who pecked me to death and i cant do anything about it because the bloody thing is flying. That or i should be able to lunge up and smack his ass

wI dont undcerstand how anyone can support that as being balanced given there is no way to defend yourself

[keen plover]

I understand tbf. I've been the ptera and done that. A lot of people say "run to the forest" but it's pretty BS to expect such a large creature to run and hide from a 45kg sky rat. Ptera should only hurt things up to a maximum size imo

[calm ibex]

use your environment
How about looking for ways to solve X issue

[keen plover]

Using environment is such a boring way to deal with something that shouldn't even hurt you. Thankfully, not a lot of ptera players bother to learn how to use it combat wise. However, if they did - they would have been nerfed a while ago.

[calm ibex]

yes, nerfed into even more of a spectator cam than it already is

[keen plover]

Spectator cam for those who don't know what it's capable of

[stark spear]

not jump but lunge upwards

like when it roars

it fully extends up when it roars but it cant do that to bite up apparently

[calm ibex]

I've done it myself, hell you can even bite flying ptera of the air if you try it

[stark spear]

ive tried, doesnt work

i spent 20 minutes being pecked consistently by an FG ptera and nothing i did stopped it

[keen plover]

Also, not every playable should be combat capable. If you don't like spectator cam ptera (which it should be imo). Then there is literally a plethora of playables to use. You're not meant to enjoy every playable.

Ptera doing 20 damage to utah and 20 damage to carno is odd

[stark spear]

it didnt fall out of the sky once, i was 70% FG carno and it took me from 50% hp (utahs attacked me earlier and i beat them) and killed me

i ran to trees

into bushes to hide

[keen plover]

You as in. Someone else will enjoy it.

[calm ibex]

We are not going to agree on it, but I dislike how everything cool is removed from smaller animals and given to larger ones (inc quetz), and then people wonder why nobody playes smaller playables

[keen plover]

You're probably not going to enjoy every playable, but someone will

[stark spear]

ok so it should be abler to kill an animal 10 times its size with no repercussions>?

[calm ibex]

hypsi spit is another example, hey what a cool ability! if only it actually you know was meaningful to use and had to be cautious with

[stark spear]

i dont understandm how you think it should be able to kill a full grown carno when it weighs nothing tho? thats like a juvi utah being able to kill a st3ego because they decide its too small so it cant get tail striked

fair

[keen plover]

It really shouldn't honestly. It's the same as someone expecting a utah to solo a rex (which imo would make even more sense)

[stark spear]

just so dumb man. i was growing for 1 hour and 45 minutes and now im dead. To a Ptera. A good one tbf since he never crashed but thats still a joke

[calm ibex]

It takes considerable amount of stamina to kill big stuff, like the easiest and surest way to counter ptera is simply go up and down a hill side, it forces ptera to waste stamina to regain altitude, which in turn forces it to give up and go regen stamina

[stark spear]

cant do that with no stam myself. Carno stam is worse

[calm ibex]

like trotting, no need to move a lot

[keen plover]

Tbf, they can literally wait until you're at least hit a few times from another creature to pester you. The best strat is to wait around a carno fighting a teno (Count the damage) and just go from there. Pretty easy

Or any other creature

The damage stacks up. A half HP carno is easy

[stark spear]

he was there when i fought the utah

i was half hp

he brought me from half to none

the fact i was able to kill off a full grown utah as a70% carno but not a bloody ptera

[keen plover]

Yeah, pretty goofy. A lot of carnos would probably die to the better ptera players. I've seen plenty navigate forests like it was the plains

Not good balance in the slightest

[stark spear]

dont nerf damage i meant tbf they have crap damage it did take him forever, but for the love of god give me a chance to defend myself

[calm ibex]

So how about nerfing utah bite because someone baits not so great stego player into spamming front swings and nibbles its head with bites

[stark spear]

not the same in the slightest

[golden coral]

How aobut we actually implement mechanics to deal with ingame things, and not just default to "use terrain", when it shouldn't be neccesary. Just give playables a way to "look up/reach up" and there you go, now you can try and catch the flying thing properly.

[calm ibex]

it is, bad play gets punished

[stark spear]

The stegop at least has the chance to defend itself, the carno doesnt

[stark spear]

exactly what i mean

stego at least has a fighting chance. it can try defend itself

[calm ibex]

perfect

[stark spear]

carno doesnt, its "use terrain" or wait for it to crash which is a joke

its entirely reliant on them messing up and not a skill on your own part.

[calm ibex]

most playables have to use terrain at some match ups

[stark spear]

all playables can fight back tho

utah uses terrain to stay out of reach of carno yes but they still both have the ability to fight each other on the ground

utahs can just take a fight with no terrain and the better player wins

fr

[golden coral]

That should be for numbers, not for mechanics or otherwise. There should be no reason to use terrain in a 1v1 or similar.

[stark spear]

every animal that uses terrain in a 1v1 has an advvantage for that terrain. E.g. utah can jump out of reach of a carno so its safe

carno is too big to hide from ptera

[calm ibex]

I disagree, that gives combat less depth and makes awareness of your surroundings matter less

[stark spear]

literally not, carno is the only dino other than stego that cant defend itself against a sky rat. How does it make any sense for you to think that a tiny rat should be able to kill a carno?

that it should have to run and hide from it

[calm ibex]

Not talking about ptera

[stark spear]

what about then?

cuz thats what we are talking about

[calm ibex]

Design

erik already gave suggestion to "solve" it

[stark spear]

the lunge what i said earlier?

[golden coral]

Combat has less depth when you add more mechanics to properly engage with others, instead of standing next to a cliff as the "counter"? I guess that's one way to see it. And there's nothing wrong with being aware of your surroundings, you have to be that for many other reasons than specifically combat, so there's that too.

[stark spear]

i mean you have to be aware of your surroundings for ambush reasons and to be able to hide etc

[calm ibex]

adding more mechanics, and more importantly balancing them is a lot easier said than done

[golden coral]

Be that as it may, that wasn't anyones argument.

No one said it would be easy, or hard, only that it would be better with proper mechanics over just "run into a forest to hide from a ptera as a rex" or something.

[calm ibex]

using the most extreme example possible huh

How about carno using shallows to counter utah, How about tenontosaurus crossing river to escape carno, How about pachy using foliage to escape utah

All of that is using terrain

[stark spear]

but in every example, those dinos, if they have to, can fight back without terrain

[golden coral]

Crossing the river to escape is fine, but do keep in mind a teno does not need to do that to handle a carno. Same with pachy vs omni, or even carno vs omni (though the argument of using terrain to counter pounce is equally stupid yes, make bucking a proper counter please and thank you).

[stark spear]

terrain is just an advantage. what were talking about is supplying a mechanic that gives every dino the option

[golden coral]

So that's more like saying a ptera flies away from something, not an issue. The issue here is that ptera can constantly follow something and peck at it from a safe position. The carno can swim after teno btw, so it's not like the carno can't follow, just that it has a harder time doing so. Just like how something can be more agile or similar.

[golden coral]

You know someone will be determined to peck a rex to death as ptera.

That's just how Isle players are, someone will make that happen :p

[calm ibex]

stamina is limiting factor and hard, it took me 3 full stam bars to kill adult teno, but that is besides the point

Easiest way to nerf this is by adding stamina usage to bite whilst flying, or nerfing turn rate on Z

[golden coral]

But it could affect ptera vs ptera matchups, so keep that in mind.

[stark spear]

but thats still reliant on ptera skill

not carno skill. that means carno has no way to defend it just has to wait

thats a joke

there is no way for the carno to fight back

[hollow canyon]

more than 10, way more than 10, Utah is 10 times the size of Pteranodon, Carno is some 40 times larger

[stark spear]

didnt want to exhaggerate

[hollow canyon]

and it's obviously nonsense that a Pteranodon can kill a Carnotaurus just by pecking it to death from outside of its range

[stark spear]

exactly

[hollow canyon]

you wouldn't, that's not an exaggeration

it's only a cheese kill that can be done because of the limited mobility of Carno

[calm ibex]

TBH, if you struggle biting ptera from air I doubt anything less than dismount would help you

[hollow canyon]

obviously it has to be remedied

[hollow canyon]

rofl, has nothing to do with biting Ptera from the air and everything to do with Ptera being bad

a good one won't get bitten from the air, they can attack you from outside of your range

[stark spear]

you cant bite it from the air thats the point thats why we are saying to give carno that option

[hollow canyon]

the bitebox of Pteranodon doesn't have to make contact with you, it can just peck the air above you and land a hit

[calm ibex]

This is what I mean

[hollow canyon]

Carno's bite socket was also reduced

[hollow canyon]

You mean that Pteranodon can attack Carno from outside of its range?

[stark spear]

if they are right above you, there is no way to defend so give carno the option to look up and bite up as far as it reach when it roars

[hollow canyon]

Carno's hitbox was nerfed in update 5

[calm ibex]

I mean that aside from "using" terrain no amount of "skill" is going to save you

[hollow canyon]

what? what's a juvie?

[hollow canyon]

yes, a 2t animal should be using terrain to get rid off a 50kg skyrat

[stark spear]

no if its full grown a ptera is 40kg

[hollow canyon]

and hoping the person controlling the sky rat is a moron and flies into a true

what is a juvenile?

[stark spear]

exactly

[stark spear]

fresh spawn carno is a juvi

[hollow canyon]

I'm asking WHAT is a juvie here? Which animal are you talking about?

size=weight

no, a full adult is roughly 30-40 times smaller than a Carnotaurus

Since always? How do you think the weight of dinosaurs is determined?

[stark spear]

since boxing and every other fight sport uses it it makes sense to use it as size comparison no?

[hollow canyon]

Let me rephrase that since it goes a bit further than that

what in the world do you think "size" is?

length? height?

exactly

now, how do you think the weight of dinosaurs is determined?

[stark spear]

yeah well theyre thin as hell you telling me theyre not 40 times horizontal?

[hollow canyon]

irrelevant since you already said that it's the area something takes in a space, now how do you think we determine weights of dinosaurs?

no

Newsflash: we take the volume the animal would take in space and then multiply that by density

That's how we determine their weight and that's why it's = size

[stark spear]

thats weight

yup

sorry shadow but ur wrong here

[hollow canyon]

not to mention weight=size even in animals nowadays - a tiger is heavier than a lion despite lion being taller, a giraffe is smaller than an elephant despite being taller, a reticulated python is also smaller than an African bush elephant despite being longer than it

weight=size since always(aside from very niche cases)

Sure, no problem, it's a common misconception

either way, a pteranodon would realistically fall down on the ground if it tried to peck a Carnotaurus, that's perhaps not the most fun solution and it would be just better to let Carno attack targets above it so that we have some sort of skill match up

as it is it's a no brainer fight where Pteranodon has to mess up to die

unless you're into paleo-stuff and/or are very interested in wild animals - most people won't know this, back in the day I used to think that the biggest dinosaur was the longest one

yea I'm just getting the conversation back on track since the weigh/size thing is a bit off-topic to balance discussion

[calm ibex]

I really wanna disagree but I just cant, what ever

[hollow canyon]

I mean, if you want to be able to kill much larger stuff without it being able to fight back - Legacy is probably the better pick for you, Pteranodon pecking Stegos and Carnos to death isn't much different to utah tailriding apexes

[calm ibex]

I see it more as all cool stuff is taken away from smaller playables, that is all
And being forced to play larger ones

[hollow canyon]

yes - all cool stuff - being able to attack larger stuff without it being able to fight back

I guess Hypsi should've also remained invulnerable to Stego's swing

That was something "cool" that a small playable had

[calm ibex]

I already stated that I cant disagree with it

[hollow canyon]

Fair

[golden coral]

People seem to want dryo to get more biteforce and all, so maybe we'll get lethal dryos back! xD

[hollow canyon]

give me back the God-Dryo, the master of Rip and Tear back from update 3.5

the second best PvP animal on that update that nobody played

yea I'm a 100kg little twig but I deal half the damage of a Utahraptor

[golden coral]

I don't know, I do know that dryo back then had great biteforce for a dryo, and was plenty capable due to speed and agility + that biteforce, so :D

[hollow canyon]

75N biteforce Dryo

yes, right after Deino

75N, like 300kg, best stamina in the game, it had also better agility than now since there was no inertia

very few people knew about how good it was

so it's a mechanic that was introduced at one point it makes you turn worse at high speeds

[golden coral]

You'd be surprised how good playables can be at something, if people know how to use them properly. Like how people struggle with deino vs stego, despite the fact that if you play it right, you can solo the stego, and two of you will shred a solo stego.

[hollow canyon]

also - it grew by sitting afk in a single spot until full adult, it only had to drink right after it hit full growth so as not to die of dehydration

[golden coral]

So yes, dryo was surprisingly lethal for well, being a dryo

[hollow canyon]

it was exactly like that

its high damage output could also let it shred larger animals

the only ones that were safe from it were Carno and Deino

both oneshot a Dryo and could spam turn around fast enough to keep them at bay/murder them

Stego was getting baited out of its tail-whacks since it only had like 10 of those on that update and its head multiplier made it very vulnerable to Dryos just rushing its head

yes and it was also stronger

yes but it wasn't that good at actual pvp due to lower agility and a higher skill requirement to actually pull a kill off with it

Dryo was just a zooming little locust/piranha that could maul stuff rather easily when played by a competent person

oh pteranodon could and still can fight it's just that it takes a lot of skill and patience to do, back then it dealt more damage and was tankier(although not by all that much)

Dryo was a bit more forgiving since you just needed to hop on it and run around your opponent attacking them whenever they left an opening

even if you died - who cares? You just spawn again and go watch some tv for half an hour before getting back to a fully grown Dryo again

yea in a pack they were even better but you typically had to get your friends to play it with you because not many people were playing Dryo

because not many people knew it was that good

I found out about it because someone I know pointed it out to me

then I started to play it myself and realised that goddamn he's right

there's a lot of playables that are better/worse than most people think

it's just about what they do with them

[wraith relic]

@stark spear I think they’re adding juvi hide outs with weird shaped cycads that they can take shelter in from stuff like pteras

[hasty coyote]

Instead of giving everything a new ability to reach up, why not just make ptera’s hurtbox extend down more when biting? That way they don’t need to make a whole new ability or make it easier to bite people on rocks, but still make it easier to hit a ptera that is pestering you.

[bronze crow]

Whoever died a Ptera as a 70% carno is a walking skill issue just

[golden coral]

Considering there is no proper counter, there's no "skill" involved in the first place.

[bronze crow]

All bro had to do if he was getting low is go in the forest

Simple

It’s a skill issue

[golden coral]

That has nothing to do with skill, and its also a terrible argument.

So no, it's not a skill issue when there's no skill involved. Simple as that.

Since there's no actual engagement, no back and forth, there's nothing involved. It's like saying it's "skill" to go drink at a shallow spot where no deino can hide.

But maybe that is what counts as skill when it comes to players in this game xD

[thin mantle]

The most basic A to B chain of logic is considered skill now….oh dear

Even then it only works on the pteras that give up, you can peruse them as long as you want

[tall bronze]

Not 100% related but a better camera to help us look up at flyers would be nice 🥲

[bronze crow]

How is a carno running into a forest to escape a ptera the same as drinking at shallows

Ok then maybe it’s an iq issue if he can’t run into a forest so the ptera can’t find him

Like the ptera would land and try sniff him out or something he’d get 1 tapped it’d be insanely hard to track a carno in the forest

As a ptera

[golden coral]

How is it not? You're not actually engaging with the other player, you're just trying to get into a position where it just can not reach you at all. Your "solution" is not to add an actual mechanic, but to just say "well, just don't be where this thing can get to you". Which is not only rather boring, but also not very good design when there can be proper mechanics in place to interact instead, which gives both players something to work with.

Also, you're actually arguing that a solo ptera should somehow be able to damage, much less kill, something like a carno, with the carnos only option being "run and hide". A carno should "run and hide", from a ptera, because there's no actual way for the carno player to react and counter said ptera. I don't know, but I'd think it's obvious this is a terrible approach, both from a fun perspective and from a balance perspective.

You're also underestimating how good pteras can fly if the player is actually competent. A forest will not magically negate their ability to follow you, or attack you. And I don't see why they'd need to land, I doubt they're following you by scent, and not just visual, since you're not exactly equipped to hide in the first place.

[bronze crow]

Bro thinks ptera needs a nerf they already are like 1 tap and do like -4 damage tracking a carno sprinting around the forest as a ptera is hard enough hitting a tree is game over for you, if you somehow die to a ptera as a 50%+ carno it’s a skill issue I don’t care what you say

[bronze crow]

It barely does any damage that’s why I’m confused how you manage to die to a ptera I don’t think it should be able to kill one or they even can kill one unless it’s a really skilled player but man just use the forest it’s simple

If you die to one you’re just bad

[golden coral]

Whoever mentioned a nerf? And yes, it's a skill issue if you as a ptera hits trees, when you can avoid them quite well. It is not however, a skill issue for the carno that has no proper counter. No matter what you might think, you are wrong.

As such, a decent solution would be to add something that lets terrestials attack upwards, even if they do not have a jump, so that they can react to things like a ptera trying to bother them. Because quite frankly, even if that ptera isn't very likely to kill you, it's still very annoying when they insist on trying, especially when you're a stego and all they do is peck your plates forever.

[bronze crow]

That would literally nerf ptera even more than it is, it wouldn’t be able to touch anyone just fly around and watch

[golden coral]

There you go, now there's some interaction, and you don't have to run into a forest as a stego because you don't want to hear a pain noisy every five seconds because a ptera decided it had nothing better to do than to bother you.

[golden coral]

You mean you don't think you might be able to juke the counter attack or something? ^^