balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

To make it clear however, Utah is just a vastly better animal than Carno because it has a better match up against pretty much every animal in the game.

I think the only exception might be Deinosuchus which does indeed handle raptors better than Carnos

...but it's kind of irrelevant since it steamrolls both with ease

[tight cove]

Lmao

[winter iris]

Utah has always been fairly easy to play, also before the pounce adjustment. The fact that you get stun after hitting a tree is false, and happens like 1 in 5-6 times, so realistically it just makes the pounce finish. This whole argument of other playables to play smart against Utah is a bit ridiculous. I play Utah a lot, and even if I do dumb things I can still easily kill my prey, when I do dumb things as carno, for example, I generally die. So you apply the “play smart” logic only to Utah opponents but not to Utah itself.
Pachy vs Utah is not currently particularly fair, as isn’t Utah vs carno. Utah vs teno is more balanced but mainly because teno can basically 1 shot a utah.
What I’d make is bleeding resistance better for all playable species and recovery time after a failed pounce longer. Plus I would remove the possibility to pounce from the front and back of your opponents and I’d make Utah damaged and stun ALWAYS when hitting an obstacle during pounce.
Additionally , for Utah vs carno fight, the nerf carno had on movements and acceleration make it quite easy for Utah to fight, bite and dodge carno attacks, whilst it is quite hard for carno to appropriately and effectively deliver its attacks.
Currently for a carno it is a lot easier to fight 2 tenos than 2 utahs , and this should be self explanatory

[tight cove]

So you would nerf Utah’s recovery time and make it have less slots to latch onto and you would buff everything’s bleed resistance? These changes will really limit Utah drastically

[ocean sentinel]

Utah may be a bit overpowered, but it's a bad idea to nerf it in several ways at once.

It's better to change one thing and see how it goes.

[winter iris]

It would make Utah require some skill, not just spamming mouse right click as it is now. The pounce hitbox could maybe be done at a later stage, but to me it doesn’t make any sense that pounce is permitted from the front and from the back. It wouldn’t limit Utah drastically, it would limit it compared to where it is now which is a bit of a nonsense zone for Utah as it can be played without basically fearing anything.
Saying that Utah is okay now would be a bit like saying that carno was ok in U4.5, which clearly wasn’t the case. And btw, with the current pounce mechanic the utah vs carno fight would have been more fun with the U4.5 carno compared to current carno

[winter iris]

On this I agree.
Problem is that until now nerfs and buffs have always been done all in one go, hence messing up balance drastically. Additionally, with this tiny playable roster every little parameter on one playable may have a significant impact on the overall balance

[hollow canyon]

It's more so undoing some of the buffs it received. I'd personally hold on with touching bleed and instead remove that stamina drain, increase the recovery, decrease the hunger time and buff bucking back to what it used to be.

If that's not enough then I'd revert the pounce latch-hitboxes to what they used to be.

Bleed would probably be the final option, admittedly Carno should get its bleed resistance back to normal, it's absolutely bizarre that it got that randomly nerfed for no reason just to be more vulnerable to Utahs.

[ocean sentinel]

I'd just make it so you can't pounce whatever body part is your targets main weapon and see how that does. I'd also buff Carno's bleed resistance back to what it was, but that's about it.

[hollow canyon]

I disagree, there's no reason why Utah's pounce should be draining stamina and there's no reason for Utah to have such an absurdly long hunger time to the point that allows it to afk throughout its entire growth

[tight cove]

They probably have utah pounce draining a little stam because bucking them off would cost a bit of your own stam, and on that note they must fix juvi utahs draining as much stam as an adult utah, now that is truly OP and broken that needs a fix asap.

[hollow canyon]

I don't see what bucking costing stam has to do with Utah draining stamina without you bucking

[golden coral]

Revert the carno bleed resistance nerf, remove the stamina drain while moving and being pounced. Maybe increase the recover on missed pounce a bit as well, to match pachy ram miss. Start there and see how it goes. And if possible, then fix the pounce so it only works on the sides/flanks, and makes you stunned or even knocked down if you land it somewhere else. Not sure how to fix bucking honestly, except make it more effective.

[tight cove]

Extra weight your carrying I guess 🤷‍♂️

[golden coral]

Yeah, that was probably their reason, but it also means you can't fight back effectively. Stand still and buck = open target, even an asleep utah can land the pounce. Move = drain stam and make yourself weaker and more likely to die. Move and buck = lose all stam and you are already dead, since now you an do nothing.

And they wonder why people stand next to cliffs or rocks or trees. Maybe if bucking was a proper counter and you could fight back properly, it wouldn't be as likely for people to just hug envrionment and stand there for the next hour until the utahs get bored and give up or have all died somehow.

[tight cove]

man i cant wait to see this next updates patch notes, its gonna be real interesting

[golden coral]

How so? Are we expecting something special?

[tight cove]

i meant like in terms of buffs and nerfs

everybody wants something either buffed or nerfed im seeing lots of ppl calling for utah nerfs and ppl asking for carno and pachy buffs and even stego buffs

[golden coral]

Ah, I doubt we get much, and if we do, it's probably the same "buff and nerf a lot at the same time" so we'll still end up in a bad situation with lots of complaints.

Balancing properly hasn't been this teams strong suit, probably not since the beginning of the game

[night compass]

Fr? Stego? I think the stego should stay as it is currently, with being slightly more susceptible to deino attacks

[tight cove]

yeah i have seen ppl asking for stego buffs 😂

[night compass]

I'm sorry, but no, that's a bit too much. Like, stego is fine how it is- it's not too too op, and it's certainly not weak

That is actually really funny though

[ocean sentinel]

Pounce drains the target's stamina?

Thought it was just bucking

[tight cove]

nope if you move around you will drain stam since your carrying there weight

[golden coral]

Which is a rather terrible change that needs to be reverted. And then theres the buck cooldown thing, if thats still a thing, that ruined mind games and also need to be reverted if it hasnt already.

[tight cove]

bucking has a cooldown? they must have gotten rid of that because i dont notice any cooldown for that.

[somber sphinx]

@steady flax I agree to lower stegos group limit but not to that deino and carnon group limit should be upped, they are solitary or smal groups hunters that dosent need a pack

An animal should be solitary/in smal groups or pack hunters based on their mechanics and what they are going to do

[steady flax]

Yeah for sure. I only suggested upping their grp limit because they are weaker than the stego. So to balance that I think they should have a bigger pack limit until stego is nerfed.

[golden coral]

Deino is not weaker than stego. And why would stego be nerfed? Deino is also the best solitary hunter we have, and should remain such, since the lunge works so well for that. Carnos aren't meant to hunt stegos at all, so even if you gave them higher numbers, that shuldn't matter. Though I guess they could use an added carno vs the omnis, but then the tenos would struggle even more since carno works so well in packs.

Not to mention that currently, group limits do nothing. I've seen 4-5 adult deinos in the same area, same with carnos. So changing the number won't prevent stegos from still joining in a group of 4+ if they want.

[steady flax]

Have you ever 1v1 a stego playing as a deino? Deino is weaker lmao. Stego needs a damage nerf.

[slim dragon]

Deino isn't weaker, it's just not designed to hunt things its own size

[steady flax]

Yeah true, for private servers though in the future they are going to put in rules that each Dino can have as many players in a grp that the devs have put into the game. So upping the pack limits will help the private servers.

[slim dragon]

Whereas stego is designed specifically to defend against things its own size or bigger.

[steady flax]

In a 1v1 deino is weaker

If a stego can beat a deino by face tanking, then it is stronger lol

[golden coral]

I have, and even 1v1 a deino can win. But that aside, deino isn't meant to 1v1 stegos, it's not a weak playable by anym eans. It just so happens to not be good at fighting other apexes. Stego does not need a damage nerf, or if it does get one, deino needs it too at that point.

[slim dragon]

It's a matter of adaptation
Outdamaging things is literally stego's gimmick

[golden coral]

Yes but that'd still have to be controlled by admin, unless they add something that makes it so being in a group actually matter, beyond just seeing the names.

And I imagine private servers will set their own group limits at that, rather than keep whatever the devs have decided on.

[steady flax]

No it can’t 😂. The only way a deino can win is if the stego is stupid. The stego has more hp and deals more damage then a Croc. They need a nerf.

[slim dragon]

stego has less hp

And a x2 multiplier on its head instead of the usual 1.5x

[golden coral]

Deino has 2K more health. Yes, it deals more damage, but you can lunge and stun the stego. But granted, 1v1 deino struggles, but I've seen people kill stegos as deino, so it's doable.

[steady flax]

Yeah they could

[golden coral]

In any case, deino isn't meant to hunt something it can't lunge and grab, and despite that, 2 deinos can hunt a stego pretty easily, and with another one or two, you can hunt a stego strictly on land, despite that not being deinos biome at all. Deino is by no means weak or struggles, it'sprobably the most invunerable playable aside from ptera maybe.

[steady flax]

Idk about that hp. Crocs can’t take as many hits to the face from a stego then stegos can. And the stun is basically useless.

[steady flax]

Well until bigger carnivores are added that can hunt the stegos, I think the stego needs a nerf

[golden coral]

Weight equals HP, and deino weighs 8T while stego weighs 6T. And deino kills stego in 6(7) hits on the head. Stego kills deino on 5 hits on head. It's very close, and that's fine.

And the stun is not useless, not if you have a packmate, it's rather lethal if you have someone that can use the time to position and spam bites on the stegos head.

Solo, sure, but in pairs, a stego will die unless it runs for it's life.

[steady flax]

Yeah my whole point is, stego is stronger than the deino and it has a bigger pack limit. That shouldn’t be a thing

[golden coral]

Also omnis/utahs can hunt stegos, deinos can still hunt them, so it's fine for now.

I do agree that stegos should only come in pairs, like deino.

No apex should come in more than pairs really.

[steady flax]

In my experience of using the stun with a pack mate. The stego will just run further up land after we stun him and get a few bites on em.

[golden coral]

Work on your timing a bit, and don't be afraid to chase if it runs away, at the very least you can easily make it back off. And you can lunge on land too, don't forget that.

[steady flax]

The stun can’t be lethal if the fight is just starting. It could be lethal if we had 3 crocs n the stego was already hurt

[golden coral]

But stegos aren't really meant to be hunted by deinos, so it's not really an issue.

Not lethal in that way, I meant in how effective it can be in how you hunt a stego.

[steady flax]

Yes u can back it off, but not kill it with the stun in the initial fight

[steady flax]

Right now deinos are about the only thing in the game that can put a stego in its place. There aren’t enough good utahs in the servers to do it lol.

[golden coral]

If you time it right, and position right, I've seen deinos kill stegos in the first engagement. So it is doable.

Stegos don't need to be "put in their place", no more than deino does. And you don't have to be that good of a utah to do it anyway.

[steady flax]

I have not. Nor been able to when playing the deino. But to each their own

[golden coral]

Fair, I didn't say you had, but I've seen people do it. I'm just saying it's doable.

[steady flax]

For sure

[golden coral]

I've also been hunted on land as stego by 4 adults + 2 subs, and they were very good at boxing me in and using the lunge to keep me from fighting back. Granted, I could have run away, but my point there is more so that given numbers and a bit of strategy and tactics, you can pull some things most would not imagine.

[hollow canyon]

no, it drains your stamina passively unless you stand completely still

[steady flax]

Damn that some OG hunting haha. Yeah I haven’t been able to find any crocs that are actually ballsy enough to come on land wth me haha.

[hollow canyon]

That is just... completely wrong - Deino is the tankier of the two, it can win 1v1 if it's good enough.

[steady flax]

Ok if the Croc has more hp then it does less damage. Cuz a stego will win a face tank match wth a Croc

[hollow canyon]

Stego does deal far more damage though but it also has a much higher headshot multiplier, you can take down a Stego as long as you protect your head and stay on its head at the same time

Deino isn't supposed to be winning a facetank with Stego

so it losing there is completely intended

[steady flax]

That’s why I’m saying up the Croc grp limit lol. I’ve seen 2 crocs get messed up by 1 stego.

And right now stegos can have 5 in a group and Croc can have 2. It is not balanced

[hollow canyon]

it's more that Stegos should be lowered down to 2

[golden coral]

I didn't expect to see that many of them, and they had the coordination down, so I'm impressed. Key trick was to never let me get near one of them without at least one other able to get close, so if I tried to swipe at one, that one would lunge me and stun me, letting the other one come up and start biting away. I did kill one of them, so it's not "safe" to do neccesarily, but it's doable and in most cases, I imagine that the stego won't even realize how set up it is until it's almost dead, and by then it can be too late, especially if the deinos have managed to box it in.

[steady flax]

I would support that lol

[hollow canyon]

there's 0 reason for 5 Stegos to be sticking together

same goes for Deinos

both should have a limit of 2

[steady flax]

Yeah I would be impressed seeing that too haha. Yeah that’s some grade A coordination. Oh nice, yeah for sure.

[steady flax]

Yeah I agree

[hasty coyote]

I'm just hoping they do that, then also lower stego food so that they cant support a group of 3+bwithout having bad diets

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, why stego has 5 in a group, being a large, ideally difficult to sustain, and powerful apex, is beyond me. Should be in pairs only, like all the other apexes.

[steady flax]

That would be nice if they lowered its food too.

[golden coral]

And yes, food or something needs to be worked on to limit groups, and make the groups split up at times. And preferably not in the way of the carno, because those hunger times are not fun.

[thin mantle]

They need to improve its mirror matchup before that to facilitate the inevitable cannibalism

[steady flax]

Yawp

[golden coral]

There's hopefully better ways to handle things than just make things starve fast.

[thin mantle]

Because rn it’s just…..stand still and mash lmb, hope you hit first

[steady flax]

True

[hollow canyon]

I also don't think that Carnos should have a higher pack limit

they are good at 3

[hasty coyote]

I mean not so much of starve fast, and more of the way of less diet plants. So instead of having like 20 pumpkin patches that can each feed a stego, you only have like 3, or each patch can only feed 1/5th

[steady flax]

Yeah I’m good wth then staying at 3 if stegos get lowered to two.

[golden coral]

That sounds a lot better yes. And speaking of pumpkins, can we please make them slightly easier to eat, it's a pain and a half to actually feed on those!

[thin mantle]

Are those group limits connected in some way?

[golden coral]

Also why do I have to wiggle for every plant I want to eat, it's just silly :p

[thin mantle]

Corpse hitboxes need so much work in general…

[steady flax]

What u mean?

[hasty coyote]

oranges are the same way, and mangos are even worse

[steady flax]

Facts haha

[hollow canyon]

tbh I don't think Stegos number should have any effect on Carnos, Carnos aren't supposed to be going after Stegos. Stegos shouldn't be going in throngs of 5s for other reasons

[thin mantle]

Oh just that I’m curious why you being ok with Carno’s group limit remaining as is is contingent on stegos being lowered to 2, when those animals are not at all relevant to eachother outside of existing on the same map

[hasty coyote]

increasing the number of carnos makes everything smaller than it have an even worse matchup

[steady flax]

In the current game, everything is hunting everything. So to make it more fair fights I think they should adjust accordingly

[thin mantle]

You could throw 20 carnos at a stego and it will likely survive simply because Carno is one of the worst equipped hunters for stego of anything in game and amongst predators to come

There borderline isn’t a matchup there

[steady flax]

Nah, I’ve killed a solo stego with 3 Carnos.

Multiple times

[thin mantle]

I’ve killed a stego as a Carno solo, I should’ve specified “a stego that is presently at their desk”

[hollow canyon]

^

[golden coral]

Never tried mangos, but oranges work quite well for me, but maybe dryo just knows how to feed properly! I've rarely tried pachy, maybe it struggles more?

[steady flax]

Yep, the stego was fighting back each time😂

[hasty coyote]

and has more than 2 functioning brain cells

[hollow canyon]

There's no excuse to dying to Carnos as a Stego unless there's an entire horde of them around you

[steady flax]

It would hit us and we would take turns healing and keeping the bleed going

[thin mantle]

Then it was pure reflexive spamming, if you kill a stego as a group of 10 or less carnos that stego would’ve probably lost a fight to 10 hypsis as well

[steady flax]

Nope, it was timing it’s hits for sure. Lmao

[hasty coyote]

basically imagine having to jump to try and see if you're at the right angle. Also, pachy has to wiggle slightly every time it needs to grab and orange, and each only feeds you like 5 %

[steady flax]

The stego was a good player. The fight lasted 15-20 minutes

[thin mantle]

That stego was an embarrassment to even die at all

[steady flax]

😂 well shoot

It’s wasn’t the first one to die to 3 Carnos haha

[golden coral]

Yeah, like pumpkins, it's just a struggle. Maybe if they rework food, they could also rework how that works!

I mean, three carnos can probably take a stego, but it'd be a stego that kind of lets them fight it like that. If you time your hits, you'd take one carno every time it goes for a head run, and then they'll have to recover if they don't die outright.

@steady flaxI want to fight you and your carno pack as stego now!

[hasty coyote]

carno does 175 damage, so 350 with a headshot on stego. that means you need to hit roughly 18 times to kill the stego. meanwhile it just has to hit you once with a headshot

[steady flax]

We were doing really well with surrounding it and baiting it’s attacks and keeping his eyes occupied.

[thin mantle]

Well as I said, I’ve soloed stegos before, I’ve killed stegos in groups, and I’ve been apart of a megahorde of carnos that lost to a single stego because it wasn’t a complete fool….3 carnos killing a standardly competent stego isn’t the norm, 3 carnos killing a stego with the skill level of a toddler perhaps.

[steady flax]

Ight bet😂 the 2 Carnos I was wth at the time were randos but I bet I can find more players!

[thin mantle]

Same

[steady flax]

To each their own good sir

[thin mantle]

Maybe you’re just god tier carnos….now I wanna know

[steady flax]

😂 well I play Carno on na 2 lol

[golden coral]

Need a proper test server!

[steady flax]

True

[thin mantle]

If only

[golden coral]

But alas, no sandbox.

[steady flax]

Big sad

[golden coral]

Now that would be a great update if we got that but

Not very likely unfortunately

[thin mantle]

Well at least we have scope…but still

[golden coral]

Need to go and have some fights and test stuff again, it's fun!

[thin mantle]

We really do

[steady flax]

Facts

[winter iris]

Hi all, silly question probably , but it the first time I grow a deino big enough. Is it possible to grab stegos as deino?

[golden coral]

As long as the stego is under 4T, yes. Which should be about when they reach 80% or so, so as long as the stego is not fully grown or almost, you might be able to grab it. And even if not, if it's not fully grown, you could still probably fight and kill it, just keep in mind the lunge stuns you as well as the stego,so it might be helpful to have another deino with you to take advantage of the stego being stunned and to keep focus off of you while you're stunned.

[analog mirage]

Carno is not meant to take on large animals like stego but people complain it can’t only cause it’s the biggest land carnivore atm

[ocean sentinel]

Personally I find lunge stunning a bit weird. It just seems off that the Deino gets stunned longer since it weighs more, but I also get why they didn't make Stego get stun longer since it would allow a single Deino to stun lock Stego for a while.

Heck even if you made it even one Deino could just lunge spam while the other bite spams and the Stego has no counter play.

I'd like it if they went about lunging things above 4 tons differently

[tight cove]

I would really like to fight you guys as a stego aswell from what I'm reading here you guys must be top tier carnos to kill a good stego. 👀

[steady flax]

It’s really not that hard😂. But yeah that be fun haha

[hollow canyon]

Carno is where it should be with regard to large animals - it gets absolutely bodied by them with ease. That's how it should be, it's the match ups with the smaller animals that are really questionable. Carno should have the upper hand against Utahs and Pachys while having a more or less even match up against Tenonto(perhaps slightly Tenonto-favoured). It currently handles all those animals poorly(aside from Pachy which seems to be getting mauled by a Carno 1v1, whenever there's more Pachys Carno goes down though).

[tight cove]

Yeah pachy vs carno 1v1 is hoping you get a leg break then running away lmao and honestly teno vs carno 1v1 with both players being good teno has the advantage.

[hasty coyote]

I may just know the matchup well, but I don't have much trouble dealing with most carnos as a solo pachy (unless the carno is actually good too). The moment you get a head or leg fracture, they immediately run 9/10 times. If they dont, then you fracture them more. If they continue to try and run you down, then you just slowly beat them to death.

however, if I get ambushed with a ram, then yeah I'm dead. as it should be

[tight cove]

Lets hop on scope's server and fight, i am not denying your claim im just bored lol.

[hasty coyote]

sure why not lol

[tight cove]

bet

[tight cove]

I just finished fighting this guy and he is indeed a great pachy player GG.

way above the average pachy player thats for sure

[hasty coyote]

same with you, much better than the W m1 carnos lol. GG

[tight cove]

Thanks! 😂

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage thats already how it works lol

[analog mirage]

Is it?

Since pachy seems to do the same amount of damage regardless

[dusky surge]

charge ram does more damage

thats how its always worked

[keen plover]

I think they mean momentum being a factor to damage

[dusky surge]

that used to be a thing but they removed that iirc

[keen plover]

Yeah, they did

For the better honestly

[tall bronze]

Momentum increasing damage made sense but at the same time, was somewhat useless once you were already in a fight. Plus it encouraged ambushing.

Like if something is fighting you, you're not gonna be able to get distance.

[hasty coyote]

A: charged ram does 100, tap ram does 50 iirc
B: pachy doesn’t need more damage in ram, that just encourages punch-up rather than break and run. Pachy’s issue is with smalls like utah, and I doubt you’re often going to be able to charge a ram for a while then hit, even a tap ram is difficult.

Personally, I still advocate for headslam or alt attacks to deal more damage. That way you can either break OR kill similar sized targets, but still be forced to break and run from larger targets.

[tall bronze]

Headslam doing much more damage would be nice (plus it makes sense).

[hasty coyote]

And it looks cool personally, plus it was in the concept smashing a troo lol.

[winter iris]

Agreed. The other issue I see with carno atm is that, in my opinion, it is currently not a good ambush predator. So, considering everyone seems to suggest that it should be an ambush predator, I see an issue here. I honestly don’t really know what people define with ambush predator, considering that in nature all predators tend to ambush their prey in some way, but in nature the real ambush predators have an insane acceleration and mobility (think about leopard, white shark, lion, groupers etc) and not necessarily an insane top speed. Having said that, I think carno currently is not particularly effective in ambushes bacsud it lacks acceleration (pretty horrible rn, and makes ram not very reliable as well) and if I am not wrong, the knock down time for its ram has been reduced.
All in all, carno is not far from the spot it is supposed to have but some tuning is needed in my opinion, especially in light of the increase in the playable roster and also for the carno vs Utah fight which is all in favour of Utah atm

But as I said, pretty much all predators in nature are ambushers (it would be silly not to start a hunt with an ambush tbh), but those predators that terminate the hunt shortly after their ambush are generally those with great acceleration and mobility , whilst those that require longer runs (like cheetah) aren’t generally considered the best ambushers

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's because Carno isn't an ambush hunter and isn't designed like one. It's just nonsense that people keep repeating like some dumb mantra.

Nothing about Carno says "ambush predator", it's a pursuit predator that simply runs down small animals out in the open. There's not much philosophy to this.

Ambush predators are the playables that want to get as close as possible to their target and then K.O. it on the spot. Carno does not work like that, it needs to have quite a bit of space between itself and its target and fares poorly in close quarters.

Deino is an ambush predator, it tries to get as close as possible to its target to use its lunge and kill the target immediately.

Carno rather tries to keep its distance from the target to allow itself to use its charge while also just running after the smaller animals and killing them with brute force(because you're not landing the charge on something the size of a Utah unless the person controlling it falls asleep).

[keen plover]

It's also a great pack hunter oddly enough. Charge lets it steam roll things in groups

[hollow canyon]

Yes exactly the charge is a borderline useless ability when you're on your own but its lethality just explodes when you start having more Carnos with you.

Keeping track of 4 of them circling you and threatening you with their charge is actually difficult as opposed to just watching out for a single Carno.

[keen plover]

In a pack of skilled carnos, you don't even need to actually ambush the creature. Sure, it's helpful, but how many players can keep an eye out for 3 carnos charging in?

[hollow canyon]

yea exactly

[keen plover]

Solo though.... Lacking heavily in that department

The stamina weakness really shows there

Utah's forcing the plains hunter into the forest simply by out enduring carnos. Sadly though, it's a necessary thing due to carno being the only large bodied, land carnivore in the game

[ocean sentinel]

It is kinda funny how Utah is apparently supposed to live in the jungles, yet its main ability is countered by trees

Also having an enurance advantage is a big advantage in a wide open field. In forest area a high speed low endurance has the option to run for cover, but in an open field endurance is without a doubt going to decide who gets away and who gets caught, which again makes Utah a great grassland hunter.

[frail bobcat]

Utah is a kind of jack of all trades. Great ambusher cause its small and fast with a pin that oneshots everything that it pins, which makes it very well suited for the jungle too. And its great speed and endurance make it a very good grassland hunter. With its lil climb its gonna be getting rocky areas arent gonna be a problem. Never expect to be safe from utahs

[thin mantle]

It’s basically a Herrera allo crossbreed on roids

[winter iris]

@rain bane from a logic point of view hitting or not your opponent does not change at all the amount of force needed in the ram, so it makes sense that you lose stam irrespective of hit or no hit. On the other hand, I agree that Utah recovery time after a failed pounce is too low atm

[keen plover]

@rain bane Utah loses 20% of stamina for a missed pounce.

[rain bane]

I don't think it's right that pachy are punished more for a mistake than utah. Not only does the pachy have a longer rollback after an unsuccessful strike, it also loses more stamina.

[rain bane]

I didnt know that. While playing as a utah, this is not felt at all, probably due to the fact that his bite does not spend stamina.

[hollow canyon]

@bronze crow Carno doesn't need a larger blood pool, it just needs to get its blood resistance back. Carno is the one animal with a worse bleed resistance than the others, it was specifically nerfed to make Utahs better against it in update 5.

Which was a really, really goddamn questionable decision

[hasty coyote]

@fiery ruin I don’t see a reason to do that though, leg breaks are already very strong currently. Leg breaks are generally a death sentence unless there’s a numbers advantage against the pachy(s). Personally, I’d say they’re the strongest fracture currently. So removing the ability to sprint just makes it 2x as impactful, when it really doesn’t need it.

Potentially with fracture severities, a severe leg fracture could disable sprint.

[wraith relic]

@fiery ruin I agree that in legacy it was more impactful but I think it’s a good thing that it changed

[hasty coyote]

@rain bane head fractures already reduce bite damage. I’m not sure about ability damage though.

iirc, it halfs the damage from bites.

[rain bane]

I didnt know that, sorry for my mistake then

[hasty coyote]

All good, now you do.

[rain bane]

Yep, thank you for that

[winter iris]

Correct, that’s when fracture starts healing. Initially , at least for carno (recently had a head fracture with it), the bite damage is around 30 if I am not wrong (from 175 without any damage)

@solemn pivot I don’t fully agree with your message. Whilst it is true that bleeding through pounce is currently preventing playables to effectively fight back (in most cases), I do not think that adding mud pools and/or wallowing on river banks is a good solution, at all. Not touching bleed resistance of playable dinos and simply adding mud pools and river banks wallowing will just cause 2 things: never ending extremely boring fights in mud pools, and being regularly killed by crocs on river banks.
The only solution that would provide fun fights again, is to increase bleed resistance to levels that allow countering the current pounce (which is simply an aimbot)

[solemn pivot]

I see. The problem is that wallowing was designed to be the counter to bleed and tracking. Now that tracking is kinda eh, it only really serves as bleed clotting. Before the removal of riverbank wallowing, and all the buffs and nerfs to bleed, it felt balanced, if not under-powered. The state of the game right now, with spread out mud pits, makes it difficult to actually make use of this mechanic that has been around since Evrima launch. It needs to be prevalent again, or scrapped entirely. It's too forgettable right now.
Additionally, with how spread out the player base is over the map recently, and safe shallows to drink at in certain spots, crocs could very well use the extra bodies coming to the riverbanks to wallow. Crocs weren't designed to be scavengers, but they sure feel like it right now with how rare it is actually catching and drowning a meal

[somber sphinx]

@thin mantle id love perks to change How you survive and so on like what you suggested with teno and I wish it were pros and cons with those perks like for example, let’s go with teno dive perk:
pro you can dive as teno yippie and see underwater
con now some or most of your diets are in the water making you compete against minmi and beipi and needing to watch out for bary’s and deinos more often

[thin mantle]

That is the ideal perk system right there
If perks effect your base stats ever I’d ALWAYS and I do mean ALWAYS want them to negatively impact a stat if they impact stats at all, perks should never give a flat buff, even stat trade offs are too much….

[somber sphinx]

Complete agree, and I kinda have a perk idea for ptera where it’s able to get more food and dietary needs from live prey and scavenging making it a hunter and scavenger but it dosent gain any nutrients from fish and not so much food form them

[tall bronze]

That was the Ptera perk I made, too! 👈

[somber sphinx]

Wait really 👈

[dusky surge]

"deino is one of the weakest apexes"

like hell it is

deino is VERY strong

[golden coral]

@stone glenLast thing we need is carno megapacks again. A much better solution is to limit stegos to pairs only, like deino. It makes sense that all apexes should come in pairs at the most. And you can have pairs for lower "tiers" while having the same number for higher "tiers", since it should not be dependent entirely on the "tier" but also the playable in question for how many should be in a pack or herd.

[dusky surge]

can drag any animal less than 4 tons into the water, sports an impressive 8k health pool, has the highest bleed resist in the game, giving it 2x bleed and essentially 16k blood pool (far outclassing any other animal), base bite does 500 damage, lives in an environment with very little active competition and is the most competent swimmer in the game

basing how good an animal is on ONE matchup, when it has 7/9 matchups favoured towards it is so dumb, deino is arguably the best animal in the game right now, the only reason people don't notice is they're too busy obsessing over steg

also group sizes aren't dependent on size, they're dependent on sociability

stego is a herd animal, carno is less social and more of a solo hunter, considering its high hunger and small prey size

its also actively cannibalistic, so not great at making friends

larger animals are naturally more competitive, self-reliant and less inclined to share their food due to a greater need for it, so they aren't great at making friends because it serves unnecessary as a survival plan

[stone glen]

But what about albert/allo then. Carno is much weaker than this 2, and they are not apexes at all. But also will have 2 in group. Imao would be better carno 5-6, allo/albert 3, and 2 for big stuff like sucho and apexes.

[dusky surge]

thats not how it works tho

allo would likely have a larger group size than both carno and alberto

because allo is more pack-oriented than those two

again, its based on the social nature of the animal and how heavily it relies on or utilises fellow members of its species, not based on pure size

[stone glen]

So carno megapacks is bad, but allo (which is stronger) ok? Mb thats not how it works??

[dusky surge]

para, for example, will likely be able to form very large herds despite being EXTREMELY large and almost being apex-level

because it is oriented towards a herd playstyle

[dusky surge]

allo isnt as fast as carno, and due to its social nature, its unlikely to be cannibalistic, so it doesnt benefit as much from forming megapacks. Carno megapacks can sweep the plains with their intense speed and numbers, and if one member falls, they can easily eat it and carry on

[stone glen]

Some herbivores should be able to make big parties, yes. But para seems to be much weaker than steg, and also has mechanic with group calls, etc.

[golden coral]

But what about them? Carno, allo, alberto could all come in trios, or pair, or bigger, independent on each other. They do not need to follow any "form" where smaller critters comes in higher numbers than larger. That's not neccesarily how to balance things, or do things at all really.

There's nothing saying both albertos and rexes can't come in pairs, depending on what fits for the game.

[dusky surge]

^

group size doesn't scale with the size of the animal

its dependent on niche and playstyle

[golden coral]

Also how stupidly good charge works in groups.

[dusky surge]

a rex can still form a pair, idk why that wouldn't be an option

[golden coral]

Last thing we need is carnos sweeping things simply because there's so many of them in the group that you just can not dodge a charge.

[dusky surge]

carno having a group limit of 3 does not mean rex must have a group limit of 1

[stone glen]

But not slow at all lol. I think it ll be able to run out teno, dibble or like. So same problem with megapacks

[dusky surge]

we have literally no proof allo would be able to outrun teno or dibble

considering teno is the fastest quadruped, I find that unlikely

[golden coral]

I don't imagine herreras coming in massive groups despite being tiny, because I don't see them benefit in groups much, compared to omnis or troodon. And that's fine. Same with any other playable, size and power are not the only things dictating group sizes, mechanics, abilities, and playstyle all matter too.

[dusky surge]

exactly

herrera, another small animal, smaller than omniraptor, would not get a large group size because of the merit of it being small, since it's an independent ambush hunter

it benefits very little from pack hunts, unlike omnis or troodon

[golden coral]

And maybe if allos are that fast, they might get smaller groups then, if they are a problem in too large numbers. Or they might be harder to sustain ,or they might work like deino, where numbers in general don't matter unless you're up against something specific where you need to "fight" more than hunt.

And speaking of deino, they're doing quite well vs stegos these days, they do not need any more numbers quite frankly.

[stone glen]

But stegos now have 5 in groups lol

[dusky surge]

and?

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeI honestly hope herrera goes solo/pair/maybe trio at most. We have omni and troodon, and probs velo and some other small stuff that can do the pack stuff. Probs dilos too (though them being more solitary or pairs would be cool honestly, even if they are known for massive numbers in legacy).

[stone glen]

?

[golden coral]

And currently group limits don't matter anyway.

[dusky surge]

dilos and herreras should be more independent imho

it'd be really cool

they dont seem like they're designed for pack hunts

[golden coral]

But as for deino/stego, just.. leave the stegos be. Don't hunt them, since you can't grab them. Easy solution to that particular interaction unless you have the numbers or just are really good at moving around.

Yes, stegos currently have stupidly high numbers, and my first comment was to lower stego numbers to pairs, like deinos. So there's that too.

[somber sphinx]

Pack size should be dependent on their niches and so on not by size

[golden coral]

I am not in favour of stego herds, since stego is a terrible critter for communal defense anyway.

[stone glen]

Well, even on concept they are pack hunting...
Ok, nvm. I didn't understand ur vision of pack members.

[dusky surge]

dilos?

[stone glen]

Yea

[dusky surge]

that's like, pairs at most

[golden coral]

They are shown in pairs and trios I believe.

[dusky surge]

not huge numbers like troo or even para

[golden coral]

Which is fine to me. Same as with carno, a small but effective hunting group at most, with pairs probably being the average.

[somber sphinx]

In one panel there were like 5 dilo’s against a carno

[stone glen]

Pairs for dilos? Xd

[golden coral]

And honestly, trio of carnos can handle most things, they don't need much higher numbers either. They are lethal if they are coordinated, aside from their bleed res that needs to be reverted because they do bleed out too easily right now.

[dusky surge]

dilos being in trios or maybe a max of 4 specimens per pack would be decent imho

[stone glen]

Ye, that ll be fine imao

Since they are bigger than uthas and have night benefits

[dusky surge]

why do you keep focusing on size tho lmao

they're barely bigger

[golden coral]

Could always let both come in massive groups of 10 or so and have proper gang wars :p

[stone glen]

Because it is just logical

[somber sphinx]

Size shouldn’t determine pack limits well excepts some apexes

[dusky surge]

herrera is smaller than omni, yet i dont believe it should ABSOLUTELY have the larger pack size

[golden coral]

Not like dilos couldn't come in the same numbers as omnis, it'd work, I just personally dislike it because smaller and scarier groups of dilos are appealing

[dusky surge]

because herrera doesnt rely on the pack hunt as omni does

[golden coral]

Just make all apexes come in pairs, with maybe acro as the exception at a trio.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah that’s what I was thinking to

[dusky surge]

acro isnt an apex tho lmao

[golden coral]

Depends on who you ask.

Kissen referred to it as an apex. So I'll treat it at closer to apex than not.

But I could see acro come in pairs if they get something like immense resistance to fracture/bleed/stuns and all that, so they basically take a rex head swing and just goes "was that supposed to do something?" while a giga gets some sense knocked into it.

[stone glen]

Hm, i don't understand how acro supposed to survive against other apexes. It is almost same with giga, but weaker. In legacy it was much faster, but in Evrima it gonna to be fat=not fast

[golden coral]

Because we can give it some mechanics and stuff on it's own to help. Such as making it really resilient to stuff or something.

But we also don't know the speeds of the critters so.

For all we know, acro might be faster than it looks, we do after all have a running stego, strange as that is.

[stone glen]

Yes, but anyway it is too fat imao. Even giga looks much faster.

[golden coral]

Well, concepts do not mean it'll be exactly like that ingame. So we'll have to wait and see. No doubt they'll figure something out.

[storm dock]

I think pteras souldnt be able to turn in place and bite the hell out of you to keep you bleeding its annoying asf

[keen plover]

@stone glen If you want larger groups, just use the same skin lol. Not like you'll be banned for having a larger carno pack.

Carno should generally have small groups though

[stone glen]

So bigger predators should have even few members

[keen plover]

Generally, yes. Depends on hunting style.

Allo? Bleed focused pack hunter. Can bring down larger prey by bleeding them out. Even then, having even more than 4 allos would be overkill. 4 is pushing it. If you actively let carnos have group sizes of 6-7, you're pretty much telling all the players that you should only play carno. What stops 6-7 carnos? in the current game *

[somber sphinx]

Pack members should determine by their play style and niche not size

Carno dosent need to have a larger group limit than 3 because it’s a smal hunter and can’t feed all off them and with 3 carnos it would hunt tenos and such

And Alberto seems to have a pack limit of 2 because it dosent need to hunt things as bigger than it like allo

And allo seems like it wil have 3-4 pack members because it’s a pack hunter bleeder that hunts big game

And for example ambush based hunters like deino and Herrera dosent need to be in a group or pack because there wouldn’t be enough food

[marsh marsh]

Hey man

[marsh marsh]

What will herrerra be able to hunt whats your guess

[somber sphinx]

Smals and flesh graze from larger animals like teno

[marsh marsh]

Aight for me herrerra will be interesting

[somber sphinx]

Yeah Herrera wil be pretty interesting

[marsh marsh]

Also I would love to climb and hang out in the trees xD

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's not how it works at all. Carno doesn't need to(and shouldn't) be in a big pack because it's a small game hunter. The things it's meant to hunt should not be feeding a large Carno pack and Carno's ability to kill large animals doesn't get that much higher from putting more Carnos into the equation.

Not to mention Carno gets extremely oppressive to small animals when it packs up. There's a tonne of reason for allowing Allo to have a larger pack size than Carno starting with the fact that Allo will likely be going after significantly larger animals.

Deino has no business having a larger group size

admittedly Stego should absolutely go down to 2 as well

there's 0 reason for allowing the pineconetails to move around in groups of 5

[hallow spire]

A pack limit of 6-7 carnos would basically make it a pack hunter so no

[bronze crow]

It should be maybe 4

Making hunting Carnos harder but still possible depending on Utah pack size or something

[hollow canyon]

They should remain at 3, I'd probably even lower them down to 2

it's just that they should be vastly more dangerous to Utahs than they are right now

as atm they are kind of a joke

[keen plover]

What changes would you do for carno that would also warrant lowering the group size.

[analog mirage]

I’d be fine if Carno group got upped to 4 but that would be the max

[hollow canyon]

revert the nerfs to its bleed resistance and turn rate

and it should be fine from there

keep the low hunger time

[analog mirage]

Ehhh, no

[hollow canyon]

I think it fits Carno to be constantly on the look out for food

[analog mirage]

Id lower the bleed Carno does, make it fill up on less food and buff the stamina gained while healing bleed

[hollow canyon]

I'd probably lower Carno's bleed too but tbh I'd do that on Tenonto too

the kick shouldn't be doing that much bleed

[analog mirage]

I’d lower the bleed on the kick

[hollow canyon]

both animals are meant to be killing with raw damage by mauling their opponent, not bleeding them out for some weird reason

[keen plover]

Honestly, changing turn and upping stamina for carno would probably make it relevant in the future - rather than overshadowed by other mid tiers

Make it a proper pursuit predator that is the TRUE bane to small tiers

[analog mirage]

True

[hollow canyon]

as it is Carno will be a useless trash, it is focused on doing one thing - hunting small animals

and honestly - it's trash at that

dying to a Carno as a Utah is a skill issue

[keen plover]

True tbh

[hollow canyon]

unless there's multiple Carnos I guess

[keen plover]

Oh yeah, 1 v 1. You should always escape

[hollow canyon]

Yea pretty much, you kind of have to want to fight the Carno to die from it

or just be bad at the game

Pretty much my every death to Carnos as a Utah was caused by the fact that I was trying to solo them

and that's been the case for like a year or so now

[keen plover]

I still don't know why they nerfed carnos turn in place lol

[analog mirage]

To make it less of a brawler

[hollow canyon]

because Carno was broken level of good in Update 4 ST

[keen plover]

I thought that was due to the fractures

[hollow canyon]

that was caused by the fact that literally every other animal was either nerfed to the ground or had gamebreaking bugs

nah, Carno lost fractures very quickly

[keen plover]

Ah

[hollow canyon]

but you had Tenonto with an absurd stamina cost on the tailslam

[keen plover]

Either way, current teno and utah would still be fine against that carno

[hollow canyon]

little to no damage on kick

and Utah with a broken pounce

Carnos just waltzed over the entire roster at the time(except Stegos and Deinos of course)

[analog mirage]

The main issue with Carno was it had no stam to run away but couldn’t even fight back due to a horrible turning

[hollow canyon]

and then Carno got nerfed and the other two received buffs and here we are

[analog mirage]

If you give it bad turning while also giving it decently good stam. That would make Carno a pursuit hunter and differ it from Allo/Alberto by a mile

As it should be

[keen plover]

bad turning makes it even worse at hunting small tiers though

[analog mirage]

But if it has good stamina it can constantly stay on you and gives multiple chances to kill

[keen plover]

It ain't hunting anything larger, lets be real. Maybe maias at most

Good stamina won't matter when it turns badly

You just avoid it

[analog mirage]

That’s the challenge. You can constantly stay on people and get away but actually hitting them is a challenge

Running down people until they are out of stamina

[hollow canyon]

irrelevant since you lose Carnos by getting into the dense foliage, you don't really rely on making them go out of stamina

[hollow canyon]

Carno can't stay on people unless they are unaware that they can turn while running

which admittedly a lot of people are

Ok, it can definitely stay on Pachy

but Utah or Dryo? No goddamn way

unless they're just bad

[analog mirage]

Hence why you focus on ambushing someone and if you fail it turns into a pursuit which is harder to do but isn’t punishing like it is now

[keen plover]

There is no pursuit if you turn badly though

You just get trolled like legacy carno

[analog mirage]

Legacy Carno required skill to hunt Utahs and most people enjoyed it due to the challenge

I say skill but legacy balance was absurdly bad

[keen plover]

Legacy carno wasn't challenging though

Yeah, hunting utahs was still possible, but boy was it a chore when they actually knew what they were doing

[analog mirage]

If you wanted to effectively hunt something you couldn’t just ride it like everything else

[hollow canyon]

Legacy Carno was the definition of awful balance

probably the worst balanced animal in the game and a disgrace

I despise it

[keen plover]

Allo filled its niche better lol

[hollow canyon]

Carno had either absolutely oppressive match ups where its opponent could do absolutely nothing to survive the encounter or it couldn't do anything if the opponent had at least one working brainlobe

it also never died as long as the person controlling it wasn't asleep in front of their keyboard

just an awfully balanced animal all around

[keen plover]

The one playable where giving it worse bleed resistance made sense

[hollow canyon]

it was trash at hunting smalls, oppressed some mids and was the second easiest animal to survive with in the game

[hollow canyon]

yes and it had the better bleed resistance

[keen plover]

Yeah, literally made it immortal that way

[keen plover]

after galli? I'd say they're similar

[hollow canyon]

yea

[keen plover]

both had free food (bushes and AI)

[hollow canyon]

after Galli, I don't think anything beat Galli's survivability

[keen plover]

True

At the very least, other carnos could kill your carno

[hollow canyon]

other than that though - when I introduced my friends to the game I got them to play Carno first

why? Because I knew they'd never die

guess what - they didn't

because that's how easy the animal was to survive with

[keen plover]

Pretty much that. Which sucks, cause if you did change it to where it did turn well -with no extra mechanics like pounce to counter it - you'd get an even more oppressive creature. I feel like there was no way to properly balance legacy carno

[hollow canyon]

I know, legacy Carno was just awful, its Evrima counterpart is a much better designed and balanced creature with better defined weaknesses and strengths

[digital moon]

still havent fixed your ankle issue though

oh my bad this is feedback discussion not evrima na ignore me i was making a joke

[hollow canyon]

what ankle issue?

I will put it this way - I haven't played Carno in ages so whatever its issue is - it aint exactly mine

[digital moon]

i was gonna make a ankles broken joke as i have juked out like 6 carnos today by either jumping over them, going inbetween or doubling back on them, and/or stopping and letting them run past me :P

its very funny 10/10 would recommend

[winter iris]

@wispy cave I think pachy should have a better bleed resistance to counter Utah, and maybe a bit more damage. But certainly not a lot more as pachy is not supposed to be something used to go around to brawl and kill everything. The fracture mechanic has been introduced exactly for this, so to give pachy the possibility to escape a fight also without necessarily kill the opponent (and this should be the preferred strategy against bigger animals like carno or tenos). So the complain about pachy needing too much to kill a carno I think is not really something to be considered, whilst I agree that Utah vs pachy is now not very fair because of bleeding

[winter iris]

Agreed. Stamina pool will also depend on if the size of the map will increase and on other parameters (like hunger etc) but shouldn’t make a huge difference on hunting ability. I’d rather slight increase acceleration (that has been nerfed) so to make ram more reliable (it is currently not reliable at all) and slightly better turn to enable better small prey hunting. And bleed resistance reversed /made better because with the current pounce it makes no sense to have nerfed bleed resistance.

Currently carno is all but a good small prey hunter. The only playable that carno is decent at hunting and fighting is teno. Pachy can be killed simply because of higher hp and bite force but carno isn’t currently good at hunting it. Utah, well, we all know what are the current issues in this fight

[hasty coyote]

Carno is very good against pachy if you know what to do. Using charge is really good for pachies. If they get hit, they die to another bite. If they parry it, then you can run them down. Just try not to lose them before their stam runs out. If you miss, either back off and try again, or use their aggression to run them out of stamina or onto a hill.

[hollow canyon]

"If" they get hit which is honestly worthy of a Darwin award if someone does get hit by that ability(unless there's multiple Carnos surrounding you in which case honestly they will probably just maul you to death either way).

Also - Tenonto claps Carno

Of course depends on the skill but a good Teno stomps this fight

[wispy cave]

Bible 😀

[wispy cave]

I agree, About what you said about carno against pachy, I also agree, when it's 1v1, because depending on the group of pachys against 2 or 1 Carnotaurus, the pachys have more than enough strength to eliminate The two Carnotaurus (at least it should), unfortunately this almost never happens these days.

[hasty coyote]

You also need to remember many pachies (and players in general) are Darwin Award worthy. Also, night is a good time to ambush. As well as 3rd partying and just ambushing.

[dusky surge]

@vagrant kernel making it that a stun only applies on fracture would make pachy literally the worst animal in the game, and in its current state, it really isn't far from that title

[vagrant kernel]

I disagree; removing the stun lock except when there's a fracture would simply create risk when ramming something 4x your size. You could still inflict fractures and injury, but it would only allow you to escape the danger. Not turn around and charge the target over and over again with 0 consequence or risk, because your stun lock stops it from fighting back in any way. You could survive perfectly fine as a pachy, you just would no longer be able to cheese kills on, like I said, things 4x your size.

[keen plover]

For solo pachys, it would be hell. Think of the basic 1 v 1.

As a carno, why wouldn't I just face tank the pachy? Fractures, sure - but the current additional risk is the stuns. Stuns is what makes pachy something you don't want to brawl. Also, I don't think you realise how unreliable fractures can be. Most fights against carnos only lead to you getting a body fracture, so if you didn't stun them as well.... Good luck surviving a carno

[tall bronze]

Plus the fact that fractures heal in less than 5 minutes even while moving

[keen plover]

Yeah

I mainly play carno, so that would just make it easy mode

You also have the ability to run away from pachys

Well actually, body fractures take a while now. Similar with legs. IIrc, the time to heal was increased for both. Or at the very least, leg now takes a bit longer

[slim dragon]

I'm not certain what you call "stun-locks". I'm pretty sure stunlocking has been removed last update by giving a short stun immunity to dinos after they get stunned.

And if by "stunlock" you just mean "stun"... Well removing it is a pretty bad idea

[golden coral]

@little gorge I think you can escape larger deinos somewhat reliably by going on land and running away, since you're smaller, faster, and have more stam in general.

[hollow canyon]

I will admit I haven't played either of those animals much in ages but from what I've noticed the general complaint is that a solo Pachy just dies to Carno whilst 2 Pachys just murder a Carno.

Pachy is kind of a problem child due to how it works due to the fact that it stops the other animal from having any kind of input due to its own attack.

Now this is kind of broken against Carno which is some 3 to 4 times larger than Pachy and much faster to it.

It was really toxic vs Tenonto last I've checked which is still easily over 3 times bigger than Pachy

but now I want to ask you - how do you think it's going to work against animals smaller than those two but still significantly more massive than Pachy and likely considerably harder to grow?

Are you supposed to just sit down and die if a Pachy approaches you as a Cerato/Magy/Diablo/Kentro/Dilo/name any other animal that's in this kind of size category?

Most of these are likely going to be slower than Pachy while also potentially being in the size range when an adult Pachy will be knocking them down with its ram

Pachy needs some general changes so that it isn't fodder but also isn't the the animal with the best crowd control in the game.

[dusky surge]

i mean, it also depends on more than just their size. Carno has no close range brawler stuns to speak of, a poor turn radius and no real options for opponents not directly in front of it

Cera has a superior turn radius to better react to pachy, and could possess attacks better suited for close range brawling, magy could easily get a tailwhip to guard backsides, diablo can keep the pachy in front of it and gore it for getting too close, kentro can guard a lot of angles around it with its spiked tail, and dilo is probs screwed tbh, but thats why it should probably not engage with pachy outside of nighttime

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto has the tailslam and last I've seen Pachy rolls over it

[dusky surge]

tenonto also relies on its legs to be active for most of its moves, which is the core issue here

not having kick is brutal

i also think you lose claw, also bad

[hollow canyon]

it's completely irrelevant to Pachy just stunning it to death

an animal of that size shouldn't be able to do that to animals over twice its size

[dusky surge]

but if it cant, it just gets rolled by carno

[hollow canyon]

Idk it should get something else to let it deal with Carno better then

either buff its fractures or increase its agility

the idea that a midget like that can just stun Carno over and over is ridiculous and honestly it will be gamebreaking

Carno as stated above can kind of survive potentially because it's fast

and relatively tanky

those other animals will all be slower and more squishy than Carno

Pachy shouldn't be given the best CC tool in the game

it should be a fracture based animal and be the best at applying those

not stunning everything till the world ends

if fractures aren't good enough to allow this animal to survive then they need a buff

[dusky surge]

yea but if every time it wants to fracture, it has to trade blows, its screwed eventually

[hollow canyon]

I think that the point there was that if it fractures it would indeed stun its opponent

so it could actually stun the other animal while fracturing it and then have to get out

also - if body fracture is so absolutely awful then perhaps it should be removed and leave us just with the two useful fractures that would allow Pachy to get away

or if we want it to be generally available but it's not useful enough for Pachy - perhaps it should be removed just for this animal

or maybe if it's problematic in the Pachy vs Carno match up it should just be removed from Pachy vs Carno as in - made so that Pachy can't apply this kind of fracture to Carno

or maybe just buff it, idk

there's a tonne of options that can be explored instead of just slapping this ridiculous stun on Pachy and hoping that this will sort it all out

because it won't, this animal will remain broken the way it is, it will either be getting rolled over with this kit or it will be highly oppressive to something

[hollow canyon]

@faint timber Deino vs Stego is ok where it is

a good Deino can kill a Stego 1v1 if the circumstances are right

in most cases either of the animals can just retreat from the fight and its opponent can't do anything about that

[faint timber]

but this is very hard

[hollow canyon]

yea as it should be

[faint timber]

Did you watch the whole video?

[faint timber]

there is bite analysis at the end

[hollow canyon]

I'm watching it and I'm just baffled by the comments "7 bites? Nonsense"

How is that nonsense?

Normal bites and alt bites deal the same damage on Deino

they pretty much always have

[faint timber]

I knew your sub attack was stronger

[hollow canyon]

what sub attack?

If you're talking about the alt bite then - no it's it stronger

Deino's alt bite deals 500 damage just like its normal bite

[faint timber]

I may have misunderstood the translation.

[hollow canyon]

goddamn honestly that's better for Deino than I thought, Stego needs also 7 hits to kill it when attacking its head?

[golden coral]

@faint timberFirst off, if stego is only 4T, you can grab and drown it, as you should. Don't bite it, you're not meant to use bite in your normal hunting. Second, no, deino is fine, if not too good as it were. As you demonstrated in your vid, two deinos will without a doubt kill a stego that stays to fight, and 1v1 is doable for deino.

[azure crescent]

@faint timber deino has virtually 0 threats if it plays smart unless the whole server is out to get it

[golden coral]

It shouldn't be, unless the stegos attack has been nerfed. Isn't it normally 5 swings or so?

[dusky surge]

deino is a better animal than stego. It's just not better in the single matchup against stego itself. If I were to say which animal were stronger overall, it'd be deino, it does not need, nor deserve a buff

[hollow canyon]

it should be 5

they were probably missing

[azure crescent]

also most bites kinda just missed and hit the other croc lmao

[hollow canyon]

^^^

[azure crescent]

if the 2 crocs had better strategy they'd prob have killed the stego

[golden coral]

I'm just confused as to why we're counting bites on a stego that was claimed to be 4T, at that point you can just grab it, or kill it even faster with headshots while taking less damage at that.

[faint timber]

in the water yes but we played a little bad there, I wrote it there

[azure crescent]

in the water AND on land

2 coordinated deinos can kill a solo stego pretty well

[hollow canyon]

Idk what exactly you want the devs to do about this match up

[golden coral]

They kill the stego a good few times throughout the vid from what I can see, they know how to do it, it seems.

[hollow canyon]

it's where it should be, Stego has the upper hand most of the time but it's still killable by a good Deino 1v1

[faint timber]

sometimes it can't kill

[azure crescent]

then the specific time of the link was a bad attempt ig

[golden coral]

So yeah, not sure where the issue is. 1v1 is doable, and 2v1 means the stego runs or dies.

[hollow canyon]

1v2 it dies to Deinos unless they're bad or it just runs for its life

[azure crescent]

lunging is a big no no unless in a group of 3 to compensate for the stun time of the deino

[dusky surge]

deino being capable of overpowering stego is an utterly ridiculous concept. Deino has stealth, higher health, an entirely unique traversal which renders it invisible and immune to land creatures if it goes deep enough, insane bleed resist, an instant kill against any animal below 4 tons

you make deino stronger than stego, and nothing will ever be able to stop this thing from going full rex-syndrome on the entire island

[golden coral]

Can possibly kill one of them, but then in the vid you also chased it up on land, letting it get ahead and prep a swing.

[azure crescent]

mfw deino has the same essencial blood pool as f*cking shant

i hate filters

[golden coral]

Yeah, I don't think deino ever bleeds out?

[dusky surge]

stego HAS to be stronger than deino otherwise the ecosystem is even worse off than it already is

[hollow canyon]

it can bleed out

[dusky surge]

it has an effective bloodpool of 16000

[azure crescent]

It theoretically can, it's just too hard to do so

[hollow canyon]

realistically it doesn't but it's possible-ish

[dusky surge]

for comparison, that's almost 3x the blood pool of stego

[hollow canyon]

you have to get a tonne of bleed on you and sprint swim all the time

[golden coral]

Yes of course it can, I said "I don't think it ever bleeds out", implying that I don't think that ever happens normally :p

[azure crescent]

And in the future deino and stego are both getting buffed iirc

[hollow canyon]

Because if you're on land - there's no way you're bleeding out

[azure crescent]

Far future, but still future

[golden coral]

Like, I don't think I've ever seen a deino actually die of bleed

[hollow canyon]

you don't have the stamina to bleed enough

[dusky surge]

because it's effectively near impossible to do it

[hollow canyon]

I think I have but

[azure crescent]

I've seen it 1 single time, and it was me and some friends going like as 6 utahs and the other was a deino

[hollow canyon]

it was on a video a long time ago and it wasn't fully grown I believe

[dusky surge]

deino moves slow, so the bleed move multiplier is lesser, it has an insane bleed resist and it can retreat to water

[azure crescent]

I wish deino sprint swimming on the surface made bigger splashes and waves

Would make it way more threatening

[hollow canyon]

note that sprinting in water still counts as sprinting so if you move to the water and start swimming fast it might be possible to bleed out

but it is difficult

you kind of have to try to bleed out as Deino to achieve it

[azure crescent]

The only thing that can bleed a deino out at okay speeds by itself is stego

But even then it usually only does up to around 60% bleed, which is about the same as the deino's base health

So the only thing stopping a stego from bleeding a deino out is the fact that the deino would die of raw damage before it died to bleed

[hollow canyon]

might be worth testing actually, if we could get a few people we could have them all be Utahs, pounce a Deino and bring it down to very low health via pouncing then have Deino swim as fast as it can for as long as it can and see if it bleeds out

[azure crescent]

Which is insane

[hollow canyon]

I think it would

[azure crescent]

I think a total of 4 utahs can pounce onto a deino at the same time

[hollow canyon]

yea

[azure crescent]

Which means the bleed multiplier goes crazy

[hollow canyon]

4x3xtheir damage

Deino has 8k health so it could take quite some pouncing

I think it's at least theoretically possible to bleed an adult Deino out

[azure crescent]

And it also does like a total of 1,800 raw damage and thus 5,400 bleed

If the utahs do a full unbucked pounce

[azure crescent]

This is very subject to variation so it almost nevers ends up doing these numbers

475 N per pounce

i say 475 because the utah falls off with like 10% stam

actually it'd be 450 then

edited

[pulsar socket]

Stego needs nerf

[golden coral]

No.

[golden coral]

That's a lot of bleed!

[hollow canyon]

because?

I mean it does need a "nerf" in that its group size should be decreased

the idea of 5 apexes running around together is ridiculous

[slim dragon]

Yeah stego doesn't really strike me as a herd animal either

In WWD they were depicted as solitary

[hollow canyon]

Also - Stego should be swapped with Pteranodon in Deino's diets

[wet sleet]

This. But be aware it's the "de facto" group size that needs to be reduced (aka the number of Stegos it is actually viable to group with) not only the "de jure" group size (ingame group limit or, worse, some server rule).

[hollow canyon]

both need to be reduced

in general megapacking and mixpacking are probably the biggest issue with this game

would be nice if the devs focused more on that and less on non-issues like afk growth

[wet sleet]

Wait the devs focus on afk growth? Do they look really hard at it before deciding to keep it for now?

[little gorge]

running on land to escape isnt reliable at all mainly bcs they walk faster and pretty sure gain stam back faster

[wet sleet]

Actually afk grow is kind of related to mega/mixpacking as well, because of how much it shifts the overall gameplay towards deathmatching adult groups.

[little gorge]

and if they have a partner the other can wait for you 2 re enter the water and finish u off if u decide to go back

[hollow canyon]

Half of the update 4 was seemingly an attempt to get rid off afk growth in which it obviously failed but made the game overall more of a chore

[hollow canyon]

it isn't

megapacks travel around taking care of all kinds of members of their group

the last one I've encountered had like close to half a dozen of adult Stegos with some 4 smalls

an adult Deino, 2 small pachys

one big Pachy and one or two Utahs

those guys aren't afk growing, they just have multiple members of their group babysitting them

[ebon monolith]

i'm stuck bc of a bug, how do i do ?

[hollow canyon]

message "official server admin" role on the right channel

are you on official NA or EU?

[ebon monolith]

EU

[hollow canyon]

give me a sec

[wet sleet]

No those guys aren't. They are there because of the meta. And the meta is there in part because of afk growth.

It's not the single biggest issue but certainly contributes.

[hollow canyon]

How is the meta of "pile up as many people into a single group and roll over the map" there because of afk growth?

[wet sleet]

Afk growth reduces gameplay while growing and small tier gameplay in general, not only for the afk grower. It also makes it much easier to get an animal big and strong enough to participate in those pileups.

[hollow canyon]

But I literally just told you that those people aren't afk growing, they just pile up in a group and take care of one another until the small guys are fully grown

yesterday I've had a situation where I attacked a young adult Deino which was albino and a Stego with the same colours immediately rushed to its help then a number of other white Deinos appeared

those people are just playing in groups and none of them are afk growing

they all grow by being babysat by other members

and it's a cycle - one of the adults dies and they're now being taken care of by those that grew under their watch

[wet sleet]

You are missing the point here. That's kind of like saying scaffolds are pointless, because people just take the stairs.

[hollow canyon]

no, you're just for some reason trying to connect two completely irrelevant issues to one another

[wet sleet]

*independent

[hollow canyon]

they're both independent and irrelevant to one another

afk growth has no effect on megapacking and megapacking has no effect on afk growth

eliminate one the other will still persists

they're completely separate

[wet sleet]

But they aren't. You are right afk growth isn't the single or even biggest reason, but it certainly does contribute.

[hollow canyon]

how?

[wet sleet]

Now we are back to the start. Just read from there.

[hollow canyon]

you've never addressed it

[hollow canyon]

unless you mean this which I already explained is utter nonsense

[wet sleet]

Doesn't invalidate your point how megapacking/mixpacking needs to be addressed by measures independent from tackling afk growth.

[hollow canyon]

people in those megapacks don't afk grow, they are being babysat

[wet sleet]

No, it isn't you are just downplaying the connections.

[hollow canyon]

what are those connections?

[wet sleet]

See above...

[hollow canyon]

Link me to the message that addresses this

[wet sleet]

#balance-feedback-discussion message

[hollow canyon]

I literally just pointed out that it's nonsense

people that are the adults in those groups don't afk grow - they are being babysat

by those who are already adults in their group

when those adults die they are bebysat by those who are now adults

you don't afk grow in a megapack it's literally impossible

[wet sleet]

No, I said "afk growing is a problem and here is why" and you answered with "here are people who aren't afk growing and still contributing to a problem, hence afk growing isn't a problem".

[hollow canyon]

you imply in your last sentence that those people that afk grow then join those groups, this isn't how it goes

the majority of people that are in those groups are grown in them

since they very often contain multiple species they typically use other means of connection outside of those available in the ame

i.e. discord or other voice chat

afk growth is irrelevant to megapacking, you could get rid off it tomorrow and it would have 0 effect on megapacks

[wet sleet]

Did you even read the comment I linked? The point is that afk growing contributes to a meta that than leads to the behaviour you described.

[hollow canyon]

they'd still be there going just as strong as they are

[hollow canyon]

how does a small animal not being out in the open and participating in gameplay contribute to emergence of megapacks?

I'd say that if anything it goes against it because that player doesn't become a free meal that fuels up the megapack

[wet sleet]

It takes up a server slot and adds gameplay elements that are not related to group deathmatching.

By the way we are rather far from the original balance feedback by now.

[hollow canyon]

fair

the point is - this is probably the biggest actual gameplay issue that's plaguing this game

there are of course problems like optimisation and what not

but that's not so much an issue with the gameplay

idk if the devs have anything planned for the megapacks but that should be the long term focus for the development

getting rid off them completely

or at least making it harder for them to occur

As for afk growth - that will eliminate itself just fine if the game actually encourages the player to play it and the risk to reward ratio goes towards "reward" and away from risk

atm you risk everything and anything for the ability to kind of/sort of but not really grow faster

the perfect scenario for growing right now still revolves around being sat in a bush and not interacting with anything

@ebon monolithbtw I've tagged the official server admins for you on Evrima-eu channel, you should get there and explain to them what server you're on, what's your in game name to receive the help.

[golden coral]

@rain baneCarno should not be hunting stegos, so no, there's no reason to let carnos "tear off" a stego head. Deinos are currently perfectly capable of taking down stegos in pairs, even solo, so there's not much reason to change that either. And keep in mind, if you increase the daamge taken much more, how will that work with larger apexes like acro or rex? Do they just oneshot stego on head then, or do they not get more than 300-400 damage because having oneshot fights like that aren't fun? (which means you'd also have to nerf deino damage at that) Or do we in turn let stego oneshot deino and rex and all on head as well, turning it into some extreme form of a glass cannon?

[wraith relic]

eh mostly agree with this but i'm not sure that i would agree with the excact dmg, i believe the stego head shot multilpyer for dmg should be 2.5 or 3x as much dmg but it should only be the very tip of the head as like this instead of it being the entire neck so while it does more dmg to the head the hitbox for that area is smaller

a deino realistically would be able to tear of a stegos head but it would have to grab onto it for like 30 seconds

[golden coral]

Isn't it already only the head and not the neck? And yes, but realistically, most things would not work out in the game, nor would it be fun. That, I think, is the issue here. We could let deino twoshot stegos, but would that be fun for the stego players? Would it be balanced, compared to how easy deino is to play, and so on?

[wraith relic]

pretty sure it incluedes the neck rn

if it's harder to hit in the spot but does more dmg it would reward more expeirienced players

[golden coral]

Deino already have low damage, something people like to complain about every now and then, if it and rex and others got much higher bite force, and stego at the same time got much higher multiplier, you'd have rexes twoshot stegos, while stegos would struggle with defending themselves at all (also would just encourage facetanks more often than not because why not when you don't need to actually fight)

It's already doable for deino to "follow" a stego turning and kill it like that, despite how "hard" it might seem to land those headshots. I can't imagine anything else, more designed for land, having greater issues with that manuever.

[wraith relic]

i mean i would like deinos bite to get buffed but not like to rexes power, maybe from the current 500 to 650 or 700 which seems to be a meadiator considering stegos swing still does almost twice the dmg

i'd rather have them buff adult deino but then nerf juvi deino

[rain bane]

I agree with idea <Or do we in turn let stego oneshot deino and rex and all on head as well, turning it into some extreme form of a glass cannon?>
Well, about carno - its not a problem to put stego in carno`s diets. Even now, carnos often hunt stegos

[wraith relic]

than while deinos would be more rare they'd ne much more dangerous

[wraith relic]

juvi stego should be put on carnos diet, not adult stego

[golden coral]

I meant more so that carno is a small game hunter, it should not hunt things bigger than it's own size, so it should not be designed or capable of hunting a stego. Aside from that, you're fine with letting them oneshot each other? Rex and stego that is?

[golden coral]

If you do that, deinos will just shred stegos, unless you also buff stegos.

[rain bane]

Well, now there is no age division in diets. But even adult stegos of carno groups are often hunted, even if it is not their diet. I don't see a problem, honestly.

[wraith relic]

i do like the idea of having age specific deits for creatures where you wouldn't hunt them as adults

[golden coral]

If carnos already hunt stegos, then there's no issue. If they somehow are capable of it as it stands, then it's a problem rather than a good thing.

[rain bane]

The Isle is planned as a hardcore survival horror game. So I do not see a problem in such hard realism.

[golden coral]

So why argue for a change then?

[golden coral]

Fair. Just keep in mind, you're letting it come down more to luck than to skill at that point.

But I guess it could be interesting to try out, letting even the large things just oneshot each other.

[wraith relic]

i think the best nerf for apexes is to have more smaller creatures hunt juvi vesions of them

[rain bane]

Because it's unrealistically long and weird. I find it very strange that a Deino, with jaws like that, has to bite about 4-5 times in the head to do significant damage to a stego. With carno the same system. Stego takes too long to kill, and therefore few people want to do it - they are too tanky.

[golden coral]

Becaus it's a game. And because neither carno, nor deino, should hunt stegos in the first place.

[stark knoll]

Balance supersedes realism in all scenarios

[golden coral]

Stego does not take too long to kill, epsecially not for things that should hunt it. Which is not carno, and barely even deino as it's designed.

[stark knoll]

Having a 1.8ton animal, which is designed to hunt small game, 1 shot a 6 ton herbivore is not something the game should have

[golden coral]

But the same goes the other way around. Technically, a stego hitting a carno on the body should oneshot it. Hitting a deino on the body should probably also one shot it, or at least only 2-3 shot it. And hitting a deino on the head should one shot it.

[rain bane]

I have been playing this game for a very long time. Before the introduction of survival mode, there was a similar system. Stego caused so much bleeding that even if you kill him, then you will die of blood - it even finished you off while sitting. I found beauty in this. A dangerous hunt, but a fair one.

[golden coral]

So sure, if we apply it on all sides, it'd be interesting to see how it goes.

[wraith relic]

i don't think one deino would be able to take on a stego but two deinos should have a higher chance of killing it

[golden coral]

Oh that much I agree with, problem is, this does not happen in current game from what I know. But the issue with that is what you get in legacy, that people will "kamikaze" into others just to kill them.

How do you prevent a rex or giga from just going "I will kill that stego even if it kills me"?

[wraith relic]

this arguement is getting too heated really we shouldn't have deino or stego rn until we have other midteirs or apexes

[golden coral]

Unless you can make it way more difficult to get your rex back compared to the stego, so there's a much greater loss on the side of the one just killing for the fun of it?

[golden coral]

Two deinos can absolutely kill a stego, as it stands right now?

[rain bane]

This is a skill game. Now the stego has a large attack delay, it can be smeared into empty blows, throwing out its stamina. And then kill. This is actually how they do it now, but killing the stego is still too long in my opinion (I'm not talking about pounces).

You must not exchange attacks with stego.

[wraith relic]

maybe people don't have skill when it comes to deino or maybe because you never find stegos alone pretty much, always feel like there's two

[golden coral]

Im not sure what you're trying to say there. Stegos attacks are kind of bad, but that's an entirely different issue.

[golden coral]

The former. Quite frankly, most deino players are really bad, and kind of dumb too.

[stark knoll]

I feel like it should take a long time to kill, given the roster we currently have

[rain bane]

I'm not talking about the obligatory one-shot stego, but I'm talking about a significant reduction in the armor of its head.

[golden coral]

@wraith relicBut there's a few good deinos out there that does solo stegos, so it's very much doable. And it's very doable for even two decent deinos to take a stego out if they know how to go about it. I could give you some tips in DM if you want?

[golden coral]

Yes and I'm pointing otu that it'll lead to issues with balancing and that stego is already weak enough, since it can be killed by carnos (that should not be hunting it) and omnis (that should also not be hunting it for a different reason) and even deinos (that can hunt it in pairs which is fine, at least for now, since the stego can escape at least).

[wraith relic]

stego players are also dumb though, one time i was a 65% deino and i ran onto land and grabbed a 30% stego who was right next to the adluts and only one got a tail shot on me

[golden coral]

If you want to up the damage on stego head, then stego should oneshot carno on body, and deino would need to be modified too so the matchup stays the same.

[wraith relic]

anyway i'm leaving this arguement please don't ping me

[rain bane]

Now hunting for a stego is like this: you run up close enough, abruptly go sideways, she thinks that you are attacking and makes it tailhit the air. Only now its stamina leaves more than you with such a turn. And so you gradually take away stego`s stamina, and during the hit you run around on the other side and bite. This is how I see other apexes hunting stego.
Not "I will bite, and stego will hit my head too"

[golden coral]

No doubt about that. I've seen plenty of stegos insist on fighting two deinos, only to die to them, instead of running away.

[golden coral]

I.. don't think other apexes will have that speed and agility to pull that off, honestly. They'd far more likely hunt via ambush and get to the head and start the fight from there if anything.

[rain bane]

I don't really see any problem with a lone deino beating a lone stego 1v1 at 50%. Deino can easily "bite off" the head of a stego, just as a stego can pierce its head with its spikes. In fact, even now deinos and stegos have a balance of ~50%, it's just that many deinos expose their heads to tail strikes.

[golden coral]

Also carnos aren't really good at hunting stegos, if you're referring to them. It's a pretty bad stego if it dies to a few carnos. If there's a megapack, sure, but otherwise carnos shouldn't really be a threat.

[rain bane]

I don't see a problem with this. But I would like such a small head to not withstand so much damage.

[golden coral]

You might not see an issue with that, but I do, because of how deino is designed. It should not be allowed to both hunt the smaller stuff with it's oneshot op ability, and hunt bigger stuff as well just as good. Combined with it's survivability, that just makes it stupidly op. Deino should be weak to stego and other apexes if anything, so maybe the matchup needs to be revised to make stego better if it's that close.

[rain bane]

Well, not all apexes will have to hunt stego. For example, I see that stego is only a rex's diet - if a leg is broken, stego can't do anything about it, and until then it is a big threat.

[hollow canyon]

Deino isn't meant to be beating a lone Stego 1v1 with 50% of chances

The match up is supposed to be Stego favoured

which it is

Deino can win but it requires a lot of skill on the part of Deino

[golden coral]

Like I said, I'm fine with letting stego have more weakness on head if the whole "die quickly" is applied to every playable. Carnos should honestly die to a stego "base of tail" hit as well, it's a fragile small game hunter. But you know the carno players would not be happy with that. Also carno should probably oneshot omni, and vice versa, if you want to go for some kind of realism. Which also means omnis would probably do damage, not bleed, again, with their pounce. And so on.

[rain bane]

I was basically an observer during this because, being a carno, I didn't see the point in attacking the stego right now. But even when I was other beings, I saw such fights. In fact, it's not too difficult to bypass stego strikes - they are dangerous, but they have their own delay. It's a game of reaction and ping.

[golden coral]

But what you'd get then is much shorter, more brutal fights, which could be good maybe, but I doubt most players will like it. Also we'd have to change around all the playables to apply this new, much more vicious balance.

[hollow canyon]

Deino needs no such buffs

it's good as it is
bordering on too good

[golden coral]

Sounds like a bad stego then, because a good one would just wait until the carno commits to a run through, then swing and kill it, or almost kill it, and leave it at that.

@rain baneBut if you want things to be more vicious and brutal, that's fine. Just keep in mind it has to apply to every playable. So you'd have carnos and tenos oneshot each other most likely, pachy and omni oneshot (you're not getting up from taking a ram to the face as an omni, honestly, nor are you getting up as teno if a carno lands a charge on your neck, and so on).

So if you want quicker fights, that's a whole balance sentiment you need to keep in mind.

[rain bane]

Maybe that stego was bad, of course. Still, in the game now a lot depends on the skill.

Specifically, my proposal was based on two concept arts - an art with a deinosuchus that "smeares" when bitten and tears off its head, and an art with a cerato that directly bites off the head of a poor sauropod.

[hollow canyon]

The key thing is that you're suggesting that Deino should be able to "tear off" Stego's head in one or two bites

[rain bane]

Oh, and Alberto of course

[hollow canyon]

that's just absurd and completely broken

Deino would literally have a field day with Stegos if that was the balance in the game

[rain bane]

I wrote "for example" there. Of course, for the sake of balance, you can change the number of bites. But reduce what is now, just for the head.

[hollow canyon]

back in 3.5 the balance between the two was more or less 50:50 and Deinosuchus was effectively the best PvP animal in the game by a longshot

[golden coral]

Honestly, the only thing in the game that requires "skill" is teno, no other playable takes much, if anything, to play. That "poor sauropod" is a tiny magy btw. And yes, concept art, but that does not translate to balance or mechanics. It could just as well only show an normal bite you know.

[hollow canyon]

it was taking Stego down with I think 2 less bites to the head than it needs now

Deino was completely broken

[tall bronze]

I will agree with making Deino feel like a proper 8 ton gator with a m a s s i v e bite

Tearing off Stego's head is not the way to go about it as much as I despise Stego

[golden coral]

It's 7 hits right now, or 6 + any other hit anywhere. Meanwhile, it's 5 hits for stego in return. So if you want to keep that matchup/balance, and let's say we go down to 4 hits on stego head, that means stego needs damage upped so it now 2shots deino on head. Does that sound fine to you?

[tall bronze]

Though ripping off heads with gore sounds neat

[hollow canyon]

Deino feels like a proper 8 tonne gator

[golden coral]

Remove lunge, add charged bite! :p

[hollow canyon]

This animal is exactly where it should be

[golden coral]

But then we just have water rex so there is that.

[tall bronze]

I mean currently, yeah.

[rain bane]

Yes, I know thats magy xD and about concepts too
But I still think that deino with that massive jaws just cant not to do massive damage

[hollow canyon]

Not just currently - in general

[tall bronze]

Nah nah nah, with the charged bite idea, you could not go around being water rex

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/naw-mike-epps-nah-hell-hellnaw-gif-12618802

[golden coral]

It can. But game and balance. Deino has an op lunge ability, so it does not get to also have a great bite. That's the thing.

[hollow canyon]

Deino aint no T.rex

[tall bronze]

I despise lunge as well

Even as the Deino

[golden coral]

You could. At least if it can be used to ambush from water. :p

[somber sphinx]

If deino would get a bite force buff (which I kinda hope it dosent) it should be a charged bite that you can only do on land and defensively

[tall bronze]

Nope. Can't be used in water.

The idea I have for a charged bite would be 100% defensive.

Warden gets it

[hollow canyon]

Deino doesn't need charged bites, the thing this animal needs is for Stegos to be stopped from megapacking, their group size to be decreased down to 2 and for Stego to be swapped with Pteranodon in its diet

[rain bane]

I think right now, with no other playable dinosaurs, a stego should do as much damage to a deino as a deino to a stege's head. Then you can already change the balance depending on the presence of alberto / spino / others who influence deino and stego.
Right now, stegos are too tanky, almost everyone avoids hunting them. They deal incredible damage, and at the same time have a lot of HP. I don’t see the point in cutting down on damage to such spikes, but it seems to me normal to make a weak spot. Because you still need to try to get into the head of the stego.

[hollow canyon]

that's all this animal needs

[tall bronze]

Eh

[hollow canyon]

They do have a weakspot - it's their head

[golden coral]

Stegos are plenty hunted, they're not too tanky at all. Just look at deino, it's even less hunted, for obvious reasons. Yes, they deal a lot of damage, and honestly, I think trading some damage for removing the weakness on the head might be interesting if anything, stego does not fit very well as a glass cannon due to lack of mobility.

[hollow canyon]

if you can stay on Stego's head as a Deino you will kill it

[rain bane]

Yes, but it doesn't feel as weak as I suggest.

[hollow canyon]

the trick is actually landing consecutive headshots

[tall bronze]

How much is their head damage multiplier? (Stego's)

[golden coral]

Stego should be more of a "evasive"/defensive critter, rather than a "sniper turret".

[hollow canyon]

Thankfully, what you suggest would break the balance of the game

[golden coral]

2x I believe, 1.5 for the rest, .75(?) for pachy.

[tall bronze]

Thought so

[hollow canyon]

Deino's already an absurdly powerful animal with a relatively easy growth

it is threatened pretty much only by itself

[tall bronze]

That last part

That last part needs to ***g o ***

[hollow canyon]

everything has a relatively easy growth

[tall bronze]

Which also needs to go relatively speaking of course

[hollow canyon]

that's what happens when you tie growth to eating

people just eat up and then stay low waiting for their growth since they risk their whole progress by being active

[rain bane]

Specifically, my proposal about the stego. I have nothing to do with Deino, and I cannot judge them at all. For me they are like a dark forest. I do not play for them and almost never encounter them (I play on official ones).
But the problem with deino should be solved by spino and sucho.

[hollow canyon]

Sucho is Deino-food

[golden coral]

And the problem with stego should be solved with rex and acro and giga? :p

[hollow canyon]

this animal will likely need quite a bit of help not to get oneshot by Deino

[tall bronze]

I just wish there was a way to make lunge n o t so friggn' simplistic.

[hollow canyon]

Spinosaurus could be of some help but it's not coming for ages

[rain bane]

Now I can't offer deino alternatives, because I often just don't see them in the game. But I know that if deino stays in the stego's head, he will win. I think this is correct.

[tall bronze]

Like again, even AS the Deino it's just "welp.........."

[rain bane]

Alberto I think or allos

[tall bronze]

Just sit there waiting for it to die

[hollow canyon]

I see them all the time, I've killed like two dozens just in the last two days

[hollow canyon]

those are medium sized carnivores that are some half the size of a Stego

they aren't going to be having a good time against Stego

just like Sucho isn't going to have a good time vs Deino

[rain bane]

Again, Alberto on concepts are killing the stego. So, I think, developers want this balance to this creatures.
Allos was the main hunter on stegos before, so I think the pack of them will hunt stego down

[hollow canyon]

they're hunting it

we don't know whether they're succeeding

[golden coral]

Maybe in packs, but I doubt it honestly. They're too small, though they might be able to if they have 3-5 or so coming at a stego.

[hollow canyon]

Allo's never been the main hunter of Stegos

Allo was Stego-fodder in legacy

[rain bane]

This is already debatable. The sucho is about the size of a spino. So, I think he will compete with subs and not fully grown adult deinos.

[tall bronze]

Plus to be fair, sizes tend to be off in concepts so there is a slight ever so slight chance those aren't even adults huehue

[hollow canyon]

Stego rolled over all the small animals and was getting murdered by the first apex that would look its way

[hollow canyon]

Sucho is nowhere near the size of Spino

and most definitely nowhere near the size of in game Spinosaurus

[golden coral]

Prog stego was okay. Granted, rexes would kill it, but you could make them pay with bleed! (sometimes at least)

Highest bleed of any playable in the game. Good times!

[tall bronze]

Only bits of prog I remember were waiting, starving, and being a cute lil' Taco

[hollow canyon]

Suchomimus' largest specimen is somewhere around 4t(half the size of Deino, incidentally being the cut-off point for where Deino can oneshot it)

Spinosaurus in real life is around some 7t

[golden coral]

Oro was always cuter! :D

[rain bane]

I love that in them

[hollow canyon]

Deino would kill a Sucho with ease unless Sucho is over 4t in which case it will still kill it with ease unless Sucho runs for its life the moment it gets attacked

[golden coral]

Well, currently stego doesn't really rely on bleed, and doesn't even have extra bleed, like omni pounce. Maybe if stego had the same bleed percentage as omni pounce, that'd be interesting. Even a bodyshot to something would actually cause some effects then.

[hollow canyon]

I'm not even taking into consideration a scenario in which Sucho is the one attacking since that's just plain suicide

[tall bronze]

I imagine Sucho prolly just won't linger where Deinos tend to stay. Though that's not an excuse for lunge being.....well, lunge. 😛

[rain bane]

This weight is due to the massive tail and dorsal fin, which the sucho (at least the game one) does not have. Yes, there is a difference in weight, but in size (in real ones) it is not so noticeable. True, if the developers leave the sucho the same size as in the legacy (a stronger version of the allo) - it will be sad, because it is closer in size to the acro.

[hollow canyon]

it is very noticeable, Sucho is not a very big animal, it's slightly larger than Allosaurus and Albertosaurus

I mean all those are big predators from our perspective but all three are dwarfed by e.g. Acro

also weight=size

[tall bronze]

Also if Sucho is said to be a wader, it prolly won't even be in deep enough waters for Deino to sneak up on it, at least not adult Deinos. Plus clarity will be a thing

[hollow canyon]

the reason for that is how we determine weights of these animals, to determine a weight a dinosaur we do a volumetric analysis - meaning that we calculate how much "space"/"volume" there is in its body this is then multiplied by a value which allows to translate this volume to weight

[rain bane]

Sucho much bigger then allo in my opinion

[hollow canyon]

it isn't, Sucho is some 3.6-4t, the largest A.fragilis is 3.2t

Sucho appears bigger because you're looking at it from profile

it's a long animal with a relatively deep torso and abdomen

but it's a twig

Allosaurus is a significantly broader animal

Suchomimus is as long as some specimens of T.rex while being half their weight if not less than that

[rain bane]

I do not deny that you are right, but for me even such a difference is significant.

[tall bronze]

Would our Sucho be able to slap away an Allo easily or nah? 😮

[hollow canyon]

irl or in the game?

I think in the game Sucho should have the upper hand

[tall bronze]

Yeah Isle Sucho 😛 (against Isle Allo of course)

[rain bane]

I would like sucho to be closer to acro. But this is already too far in thought, because we don’t even have the sucho concept in our hands.

[hollow canyon]

I think it should have the upper hand, I actually like the match up between the two in legacy

[tall bronze]

Always just kinda came off as like a bear to me. Leave it alone and you'll be good. Waltz up and get slapped.

[hollow canyon]

Sucho generally has the clear upper hand but 2 Allos can bring it down with relative ease if they're good

a single Allo can also kill it but it has to play it flawlessly

yes height and length are the things that Sucho has going for itself, however just like all the other spinosaurids it's a very gracile animal

also - Allosaurus has an enormous variance in sizes

very, very slim

[stark knoll]

It's like a paper plate

Similar to cerato

[hollow canyon]

^

both Sucho and Cerato are deceptive because we typically see them from the side

this causes them to look bulky and robustly built

in reality they are the exact opposite of that

[stark knoll]

Isle cerato and sucho are much wider and bulkier, but their IRL counterparts were very slim

[hollow canyon]

yea the whole body is very slim compared to most other theropods

Sucho at length parity with Acro is some 2t smaller than the carcharodontosaurid

if you put Allo at length parity it's also significantly bigger

there's actually a specimen of "Allo" that is at more or less parity with Sucho and it's around 1t heavier than Sucho

This guy, specifically, now I don't think this will be our in game Allo

I think the devs will go with the legacy-sized AMNH680

which is the specimen I talked about before that comes at around 9.5m in length and 3.2t

but disregarding all this theoretical talk I really don't think Sucho is going to be doing very well vs Deinosuchus

Deinosuchus is actually a monster in this game, it's just that most people don't control it very well

matter of fact increasing the biteforce of this animal would really break the game I believe, same goes for making Stego's head more vulnerable to it

I don't think Deino needs any nerfs but it doesn't deserve any buffs either

aside from moving Stego to the three dot nutrient

Stego is a difficult kill for Deino to make

allow the poor croc to get properly rewarded for completing such an impressive achievement by giving it the three dot diet which is the most difficult one to get

rn the largest source of the three dot nutrient are Tenontos weighing only 1.6t, they don't give you that much of this nutrient, I think it would be fair for Stegos to be moved there to encourage people to hunt them

[rain bane]

I agree with you

I've heard about Croc's dieting problem xD

[hollow canyon]

all the carnivores have some diet problems tbh

the mechanic just wasn't developed with carnivores in mind

and it shows at every step

[rain bane]

In general, it is so strange that croc basically its diets, given that this is an ambush predator. It literally depends on luck. Whoever came up to the water - he ate it.

In principle, I understand the diets of other predators, but not Croc.

Need to wait for the modernized diets with the 6th update. The developers promised to rework them so that someone would eat muscles, someone would eat internal organs, and so on.

[hollow canyon]

I don't understand the diets of any animal

not so much don't understand - I don't agree with the diets of any animal, this system just needs a tonne of changes

Herbivores also need some changes to be perfectly honest but they're less problematic than carnivores

[rain bane]

In fact, there are diets in our world now. For example, some predators are inherent in cannibalism (croc, for example), while others are not (wolves). Also, some predators do not prey on one prey, while others do not prey on another.
It's understandable that predators can eat things they don't normally catch, but they do have food they specialize in nonetheless.

[hollow canyon]

just for the record - we have a lot of evidence of cannibalism among predatory dinosaurs

having the remains of their own species in their bellies most likely

I don't remember the exact evidence but I know we've had evidence about abelisaurids, tyrannosauroids and allosauroids cannibalising each other

I am no palaeontologist, I think they have their ways of telling that nowadays

[rain bane]

I know that cases of cannibalism have been found in Deinonychus, which is related to the utah.

[hollow canyon]

add dromaeosaurs to the groups I mentioned before then

and yea I vaguely recall Deinonychus also having evidence of cannibalism

[rain bane]

There are many methods for detecting cannibalism and the difference from hatches, but the main one is the presence of teeth marks of the same dinosaur on the bones. Usually, if bones were swallowed, they were torn off from the body, which means that there were traces of teeth on the bones.

It is also very important to understand where the gastrointestinal tract should be. Because there were cases when they considered it for cannibalism, and it turned out to be a pregnant female.

[hollow canyon]

was about to say that but I wasn't sure if this couldn't be down to some really gruesome fighting then repeated bitemarks on the bones would be a certain give-away

[hollow canyon]

Oviraptor I believe

[rain bane]

No, deinonychus too as i remember

[hollow canyon]

or was it just found next to its nest, I'm actually not entirely sure

[rain bane]

Not every fight ends with marks on the bones. If the bite went to the bone, it could be a terrible fatal wound. But even with this, dino could survive.

[hollow canyon]

oh obviously not but nevertheless a single bitemark could potentially be caused by some really gruesome fight

if there are multiple - yea the animal was clearly being munched on

that's why I was hesitant to mention bitemarks but you're probably right, in most cases they are a relatively safe bet that one animal was actually eating another

[rain bane]

Here it is also important to understand how strongly the bite marks are healed, as well as the comparison of teeth and marks (different individuals have different marks). Fresh - just cannibalism. If old - need to have doubts.

[slim dragon]

@rain bane A x6 damage multiplier on stego's head ? No thanks

[dusky surge]

remember, no matter what, eat grass and die

[brittle marsh]

I feel like the stego balance answer (at least in the current game state), is not as simple as do more damage

[dusky surge]

the core issue here is that stego needs to be what it is to stop deino from being worse

deino has so many advantages that make it without a doubt the strongest animal in The Isle. Its unfavourable matchup with stego is one of its few true weakpoints. Without it, it basically can rule the island

[tall bronze]

Deino also "suffers" (benefits?) from growth/diets being so painfully easy. And I am saying this as someone who has grown Deinos, it's not hard at all.

Mind numbingly boring? Yes. Hard? Not much at all.

Resulting in adults being everywhere.

[dusky surge]

utahs and carnos can't do jack against a deino because its high bleed resist counters utahs primary killing method and its aquatic tendencies go against carno's horrible swim speed and endurance, tenos and pachies can't hope to stun/fracture it to get hits in and dryo, hypsi and ptera are not even worth discussing why they can't do anything

stego and other deinos are its only two true threats, and every animal has themselves as a valid threat, so that really only leaves stego as its one true weakness

make it the favoured one in that matchup, and dear god, it will be unstoppable

[tall bronze]

Kinda sounds like adding 6 and 8 tons creatures when we're supposed to be focusing on smalls only was a poor choice 😛

[dusky surge]

deino also has one of the best/easiest juvi stages and generally can be viable for its whole growth. No diets as juvi, then it gets extremely high speeds as sub-adult, and then it becomes a powerhouse in adult. Every stage of deino is viable

[slim dragon]

I like your new name

[dusky surge]

Not to mention all deinos can simply avoid danger by swimming down

[dusky surge]

i was inspired by the concept art thank you for noticing

[slim dragon]

Hard to not notice it

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/ahh-scream-loud-grito-gif-10730423

But yeah deino is an embarrassment, don't make it stronger, that's my contribution.

[dusky surge]

nerfing stego buffs deino, and buffing deino buffs deino. You can't do anything without majorly upsetting the balance

[tall bronze]

One thing I hope for from U6's diets/migration (to an extent) is to act as a big "AFK filter" since that's the main way to grow stuff right now, especially things like Deino.

Find fish as juvie
Gorge
Wait

So like U6 comes, suddenly adult Deino population tanks, meanwhile younger ones are still somewhat common, getting rarer as they get older.

"Looks like we know who AFKed" >:)

[slim dragon]

I think the best way to prevent afk growing would be to make juvies not suck

[dusky surge]

this is true

[tall bronze]

Niche Partitioning ;-;

[thin mantle]

The best solution to afk growth isn't to make it harder, make the game fun first

[dusky surge]

now, here's the thing with niche partitioning

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

very cool idea, very fond of it, absolutely not possible for every animal

[thin mantle]

What niche does Juvi stego partition into....

[dusky surge]

it doesnt

[thin mantle]

Exactly

[dusky surge]

this is the point here

[thin mantle]

Unfortunately

[slim dragon]

Just separate allo from the rest of the roster, make it live alone on a remote island
Boom, every roster problem is fixed

[dusky surge]

niche partitioning is cool on paper but unless you wanna make juvi stego possess some great power its adult doesn't, it won't happen

[tall bronze]

I mean I feel that's pretty okay honestly that it's not the same for every animal

However, even something like juvie Stego can have something unique.

For instance; it still benefits from adaptive diets (which are confirmed) and could possibly have more blunt damage from it's dubs, allowing to to have a better chance at snapping ankles of smaller predators/juvies

[slim dragon]

Actually I'm realizing the "but can it survive Allo ?" Meme is very similar to the "but can he beat Son Goku ?" One

[tall bronze]

Not much, but that's pretty okay for something like Stego.

I'd say for hard-to-partition creatures like juvie Stego, their fun comes more from other PvE activities. Like working towards perks.

[thin mantle]

Oh god dietary slotting is so cringe...I know it's coming but it makes me wish for death

[tall bronze]

Nononono not that

[dusky surge]

dietary slotting sounds interesting to me tbh

[tall bronze]

I wanna say adaptive diets is a different thing

As in juvies do not prefer what adults prefer.

[dusky surge]

i honestly like the idea way more than "me eat three things repeatedly to get same buffs"

[thin mantle]

That's different and fine

[tall bronze]

Adaptive diets was mentioned in a devblog, lemme reread to make sure 😛

[thin mantle]

My worries revolve around stuff like "congrats, you only eat coconuts, you now have less stam but deal more damage"....that's terrible

[dusky surge]

thats not how it will work

they have specifically mentioned damage numbers are outright not impacted

you cannot go beyond base damage

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm, I had asked Punch if damage buffs will be a thing and he said no

[thin mantle]

Good to know...because that would've been catastrophic

[tall bronze]

"Back onto Update 6, I don't have much that I’m able to share just yet, as the majority of it is code work. In short we have big changes coming to the diet system, which is in the process of being expanded upon, with slot combinations, new negative/positive effects, the new Migration System, adaptive diet list and more."

So adaptive diets are different from combos since they are both specifically mentioned.

[dusky surge]

they specifically were VERY adamant on zero damage buffs

[thin mantle]

Considering how active I am in here I'm genuinely confused how I missed that...glad I know now xD

[dusky surge]

they want combat to remain unimpacted by your diets to the best of their capabilities

perhaps there'd be a regen buff, but that'd be post-combat, not an advantage in the fight itself

[thin mantle]

Perfect

[tall bronze]

So working towards your preferred combo of nutrients as well as hopefully working towards perks should help give juvies stuff to do.

The perks I am unsure of since we know squat about em, but I assume you work towards them. Please. Please don't give them for free.

[thin mantle]

Pls no "time spent" bob perks

Congrats, you sat still for 30 minutes....have a 30% damage buff

[tall bronze]

So you have stuff like juvie Ut-....Omnis who could get stuff like climbing and their own diets and then stuff like juvie Stegos who may not be as specialized as a juvie, but still have their own stuff to do like combos and perks as well as QoL stuff like better fractures for their size (due to nubs)

[tall bronze]

That's like ambush mechanic but somehow worse

[thin mantle]

Both are deserving of annihilation via orbital bombardment

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

Send thee into oblivion

[thin mantle]

But yeah that kind of stuff is neat, the stat balances of creatures changing more over time, aptitudes....etc

[dusky surge]

i dont think they'd have damage perks either

[tall bronze]

Aye

[thin mantle]

They better not

[dusky surge]

i REALLY want a "maneater" perk that rewards diets for hunting humans

[thin mantle]

That'd be fantastic....

[dusky surge]

screw migrations im migrating to a human base and gorging myself on those dudes

[thin mantle]

I'm just hoping base stats are avoided as much as possible outside of recovery post combat with both diet slotting and perks

[tall bronze]

I remember it being said we'd have incentive to hunt humans. Now whether that was something specific or just "human eaten = no pew pew", I dunno

[thin mantle]

Their existence is more than enough of an incentive for me

If I'm playing a dino I want all humans on the island to die

[tall bronze]

I'm gonna enjoy stalking and scaring them more than eating them, but I will eat them

[thin mantle]

I tend to lean on the utilitarian end, so if an opportunity presents itself to take one out I just will, whether or not I'm eating them

[dusky surge]

i'll respect the man who simply wants to admire epic dinosaur, but you dare throw hands and i'll destroy you

[thin mantle]

Yeah if you're just going around the forest unarmed with a flashlight, then I'll have some fun with you, if you possess ammunition at all....you die

[dusky surge]

if you just wanna see a cool big dinosaur up close i'll let you do that

[tall bronze]

I wanna follow one as a Troodon and just increasingly show more signs of hostility. First curiosity, then getting closer, then appearing in front of you, then quick nips, etc.

https://tenor.com/view/dennis-nedry-wayne-knight-jurassic-park-gif-24822868

Yes I know it's Dilo

[dusky surge]

tbh, if there's a group of humans armed, and i'm a slow animal that doesn't really care, i'll leave them alone if they leave me alone

[thin mantle]

If you're a slow animal I'm not sure you'd have a choice, you're kinda at their mercy

[dusky surge]

because they probably know better than to fire the loud-ass weapon that attracts predators, and i know better than to give them a reason

[tall bronze]

Walk up to them and sniff them, then shake your head and walk away.

Make them feel shamed.

https://tenor.com/view/jurassic-park-ceratosaurus-jurassic-park3-dinosaur-dino-gif-26012186

[thin mantle]

Intentionally let them fire at you, only to start sprinting so they miss, rinse and repeat till they have no ammo, then 4 call behind them perpetually

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

i really am interested to see how humans are balanced

kissen's statement on being against long-ranged weapons does feel promising

i want each gunshot to feel like a risk

play with the intent to survive, not to kill

[tall bronze]

I know we're getting hand signals, but I really, really want to be able to yell as a human. Like the human themselves.

[tall bronze]

When did she say this? 😮

[dusky surge]

i dont recall

[tall bronze]

Interesting since Dondi was talking about snipers not long ago 😮

[dusky surge]

Oh we'll be coming to you all for human testing again as we update them cause we will need to see what you can get up to with them en masse. Especially when we give them access to weapons. While we want the gameplay experience in The Isle to be a challenge, getting one-shot by a character you can't even see after growing it for hours would feel really really bad and not something we'd want to lean into. So we'll be testing a lot of things to make sure there's agency on both sides of the fence. So there are strengths and weaknesses between both the humans and the animals that need to be played around for survival. This is new territory for survival game experiences and we want to tread lightly before firmly planting our feet on any given step.

[tall bronze]

Hmm

[dusky surge]

the specific statement on avoiding one-shot from something you can't even see sounds specifically like a sniper thing

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because that's what Isle players are so known for!