balance-feedback-discussion

[azure crescent]

Oh yeah absolutely

Trike>stego

[wheat ridge]

gimme dilo

and dibble

[dusky surge]

trike could've been more interesting

even with the additional weight, utahs could def have a better time against it

[dusky surge]

@slender kettle it's quite unlikely humans will be receiving high-caliber rounds, Kissen has said so

(which is good because we don't need that kind of stuff)

[slender kettle]

With megaherds polluting the map, yes we do

[dusky surge]

humans do not exist to deal with dinosaur populations

[frail bobcat]

We will have big carnivores that deal with that kind of crap

[dusky surge]

they are designed to be a horror experience first and foremost

their weapons will mainly be defensive and not good for actively going out of your way to kill things

[ocean sentinel]

The last thing we need is some mercenaries exploiting rocks to snipe large dinosaurs to death with no resistance.

[dusky surge]

^ very well said

[frail bobcat]

Bruh why is this random person rolling into the convo

[dusky surge]

i understand you have a hateboner for stego but that shouldn't mean we add ways to make every dinosaur's experience significantly worse

still think any sniper or high-calibre weapon will be a massive misstep for the game

[keen plover]

Would honestly ruin this game

[half girder]

dude the “nerf stego” barrage in bf is insane lmao

[dusky surge]

honestly, would not be surprised if we ended up with a wave of uninstalls/human free servers if snipers were added

i would not blame such a movement either, tbh

[keen plover]

I would only play on those servers

[dusky surge]

i'd play on sniper free servers (i love humans conceptually but hate snipers)

[dusky surge]

hateboner massive today

[keen plover]

Stego is just that disliked lol. I can see why they hate it, but some of these changes make no sense

Although, now that I look at it? All they said was nerf

Nerf what???

[half girder]

thing just shouldn’t be in the game

[keen plover]

True

But it's here and just nerfing it could make it unplayable. Depends on the nerf

[dusky surge]

it must exist as long as deino exists

[frail bobcat]

Stegos need a predator, not a nerf. And these people that say utahs is a good predator are wrong. That thing is made to protect its flanks, where utah has to jump on

And allo seems reasonable to be incoming the next year tbh

[half girder]

allo will hopefully put a dent in stego or cera which ever gets the grab

finna tunnel vision stegos

[dusky surge]

cera? nah fam, aint happening

[half girder]

didn’t they show the concept

scrapped?

[dusky surge]

aint no way the thing smaller than a carno and slower than a utah doing jackshit to it

[frail bobcat]

Allo concept is supposed to come out next week or am I wrong?

[dusky surge]

proof of concept, never confirmed

[half girder]

ah ok

well allo then

[dusky surge]

cera shouldn't even be that good a hunter imho

it's a corpse-scavenging bully

[half girder]

it’s gonna get mauled by pachys

[dusky surge]

it can eat anything it finds

[dusky surge]

eh, if it keeps the turn radius of legacy, not so sure

[half girder]

i mean one missed headbutt is death but

[golden coral]

Maybe cera can get some extra resistance, make it better at holding it's ground

[dusky surge]

i'd give it bleed resist personally

and venom resist

since it's likely going to be fighting a lot of carnivores for their food

[frail bobcat]

Because else its gonna get fucked up by utahs

[golden coral]

Both bleed and fracture I'd say. Not venom, but then I'd like a dedicated "venom hunter" instead

But cera could be made very defensively capable, it could be interesting I think, but might not suit everyones tastes

[dusky surge]

i'd prefer venom to fracture. Fracture is more herbi-sided, whereas venom is a carnivore thing (and i imagine cera will be contesting dilos and troodons pretty frequently)

[dusky surge]

i feel a defensive carnivore is WAY more interesting than hunter #26

[true ginkgo]

wow the stego hate crowd is out in force.

legit 3-4 utahs can kill one easily.

[dusky surge]

true lmao

if they split up from a herd and are caught by some hungry, competent utahs

[true ginkgo]

people not going to be happy till a utah is 50/50 with a stego 1v1

[dusky surge]

uh oh for stego

[golden coral]

I like that most is just nerf, and the one suggestion with lowering swing amount has sort of been tried before, and isn't really ideal. As for the run, sure, I'm all for stego getting a slower, and better looking run, but well, if people get outstammed by a stego.. I don't know if that would help them much anyway.

[true ginkgo]

I do think that stego was added way too early. Shouldn't have come until other large tiers were in.

[dusky surge]

(still wish sucho got added alongside deino like was planned)

[true ginkgo]

but nerfing it into a 5 hour growth small tier equivilent won't solve anything

[dusky surge]

sucho and allo could be very interesting picks for evening the ecosystem

[golden coral]

Added too early, and added without good gameplay, same as deino really.

[true ginkgo]

at least deinos murder each other instead of cuddle piling

[golden coral]

So lets work with stego and figure out a good way to have them limit and cull their own numbers as well, as apexes should, both herbi and carni.

Also don't deinos still cry about that whole cannibalism thing.. xD

[true ginkgo]

yeah despite deino being on deinos diet. and irl crocs eating each other.

[true ginkgo]

honestly just remove the thing until large tiers are added.

better than nerfing it into utah and carno bait

[golden coral]

Yeah I'd agree, but for some reason that option is just not acceptable

So I figured it'd be better to try and use stego to find good ways to limit apexes on their own

[true ginkgo]

not a fan of encouraging stegos to go and hunt each other

[golden coral]

Not go out and hunt each other, but.. less joining up in herds, and more of "this area is mine, you need to go find someplace else to live"

Since I don't really believe stegos, or any other big and slow animal should be all that "migratory" anyway

[true ginkgo]

yeah i like the idea of establishing a territory

[keen plover]

Both Stego & Deino ruin the game in my experience. Both for different reasons.

I wish both were removed, but doubt that ever happens

I get the whole "You can avoid them thing " - but when they make up a significant portion of the server? Yeah - very fun...

[true ginkgo]

yeah both were added far too early

should have added smalls, then small end of mid, then proper mids, then psuedo large, and then large.

[wheat ridge]

well u can avoid a stego but not a dino, they can be in every river/swamp

deino*

[true ginkgo]

going straight from a carnivore which is small end of mid tier and designed to go and prey smaller than itself, straight to apex level herbivore is wtf.

like yeah stegos are basically immune to carno and are one shotting them in the head.

that's how it should be.

but carno shouldn't be the largest land predator available if stego is in the playable roster

[slender kettle]

@hollow saddle your point got proven so easily

[wheat ridge]

the servers are overpopulated with deinos and utahs but some people cry about the slowest and the least played dino in the game that can be avoid if desired, i cant with this community sometimes, if deino would dominate the roaster nobody would give a damn, but a herbivore is a crimefor some reason

[true ginkgo]

yeah weird how almost all the complaints are towards herbis when they're such a tiny proportion of the playerbase

[azure crescent]

Specially when that's awful for an ecosystem

[true ginkgo]

utahs are absolutely swarming the servers right now

[azure crescent]

A healthy ecosystem usually has more herbivores than carnivores

[keen plover]

Nerf deino if anything. That BS playable can 1 shot your 2-3 hour grow. I hate deino more 🦾

Also ruined the potential for shallows and gave us that annoying center river that makes you do a 10 minute detour to get from South to NW 💀

[wheat ridge]

even with herbis being really good, well at least stego and teno, barely anyone plays it, if they are even weaker it would be indeed very bad for the population

[keen plover]

Stego is played a lot tbf

[wheat ridge]

i see maybe 10 per server, i see however 20 utahs at one place or a river full of crocs

[keen plover]

I'd say it's like mainly filled with utahs & deinos then stegos and carnos being roughly the same. I can go on servers most times and see a massive herd of stegos

[azure crescent]

Yeah, usually that herd is all stegos in the map apart from a few babies though

[keen plover]

Pachy's are barely seen now

[wheat ridge]

patchy are in a bad place

[keen plover]

I wonder why

💀

[wheat ridge]

mmhhh indeed i wonder

could not be the massive nerf hammer because of all the tears from carni mains

now its population died, thats what happens to herbis in most cases

it needed some kind of nuanced herf

nerf*

[keen plover]

I loved how utah mains cried about what pachy did to it when they were the ones who engaged first lol

[wheat ridge]

well carnis in a nutshell

same with stegos

[golden coral]

Deino is just.. I agree with Aken, it's a rather sad playable due to the best way to handle it is to just... never drink in any dangerous spot. And it's a stupidly invunerable animal, more than stego. Stego is just a "AI" playable, and almost as invunerable in it's own way, with nothing for now to actually make them difficult but fun and all that, like how an apex should be. (At least deinos do have cannibalism, much as people dislike that, but with how the mirror match is, I can understand that)

[golden coral]

What point? ^^

[golden coral]

Teno is such a well designed playable. I wish all the others were brought up to that standard.

[keen plover]

It's not even scary. It's just a nuisance... Like actually makes the game so fucking boring. Can't fight it, eat it or watch it... Just avoid it. Useless addition that ruins the ecosystem. But hey! Large gator!

[wheat ridge]

@golden coral too many crocs are even bad for crocs themself, like nobody gonna drink where they chill and they never get a chance to grab a dino and drown it, its really really rare

i just made crocs on 2 servers to clean the rivers sometime but a day later its polluted again with crocs everywhere

[golden coral]

That too. Deino is really well designed for solo gameplay, with how its mechanic works. But people do like to group up. Both stego and deino needs to come in no more than pairs, and deino could split a river part/side between a pair.

[hollow saddle]

I know right the stegosaurus players prove their degeneracy in seconds

[dusky surge]

who here ACTUALLY plays stego

i fuckin' don't

still dont want it nerfed

[wheat ridge]

i play cannibal croc and teno , sometimes utah

[keen plover]

I've played it a few times

Don't want a nerf (I want it removed)

But nerfing it just makes it garbage lol

Like what do you nerf

[dusky surge]

Removing stego should also end up with removing deino tho

[wheat ridge]

better removed and released with another apex carni than nerfed

[dusky surge]

And that's a whole bag of worms

[keen plover]

I agree with both. EZ

[wheat ridge]

agreed

[dusky surge]

Ehhh

I'd rather not see two pulled from our already limited roster

(especially since I think deino is cool)

[wheat ridge]

deino si really nice but it kinda spoils it for many because everyone and their mother play it and even worse, play it in carebear mode

[dusky surge]

Criticise me all you want but I still think big gator = cool

[azure crescent]

i stan deino, but if stego is going deino is too

[keen plover]

I think it's fine. I personally dislike big gator

We just differ

I love it but hate it actually. It's weird...

[hollow saddle]

What do you mean by carebare

[keen plover]

I just like small tiers and mid tiers with you know? small tiers and mid tiers.

[wheat ridge]

having to drink 10 miles from hotspots is really annoying tho, never give crocs a chance to drag u down, i just let them be bored

[hollow saddle]

I personally play solo and est other crocs

[true ginkgo]

Grew one in the stress test and apart from that haven’t bothered with it this update. It’s boring af to play. Constantly dragging itself around at snails pace for diets. Both op for the current roster while also feeling super barebones.

[wheat ridge]

@hollow saddle well u are rare then, most croc players play it as a carebear

[dusky surge]

agreed

[true ginkgo]

Dryo and stego both feel like playable AI without any proper mechanics

[hollow saddle]

What is carebear mode explain

Eating other crocs?

[dusky surge]

i cant fucking play it because
A: Boring
B: Awful juvi

[frail bobcat]

Many people are just play it cause its the strongest, its the rex-legacy thingy that happens here

[hollow saddle]

Giga > Rex

[true ginkgo]

Wondering if utah and carno players are going to be mad about carni apexes being powerful too.

[dusky surge]

Giga is actually stronger than rex

[dusky surge]

No, they'll just swap because "big strong carni good, big strong herbi bad"

[frail bobcat]

I am a utah player and I am hella excited for apexes making me scared

[keen plover]

Stego is only fun during the 1.5T-3T spell

[wheat ridge]

making friend with all the crocs and living together as a happy familiy, never cannibalize and pollute all the rivers, protecting smaller crocs for everything so the deino population gets even worse

[frail bobcat]

Actually?

[hollow saddle]

I doubt but the issue rn is stegosaurus is untouchable if played right nothing to challenge it, we just need more herbis and carnis and the game will fix

[keen plover]

Once you're larger, it gets too easy

Also juvi is worthless

[dusky surge]

In legacy, absolutely

[true ginkgo]

Need to just remove stego till later and replace it with kentro.

[wheat ridge]

sure but u can just walk away from it, its a non issue some people cry about

[hollow saddle]

That would work tbh for current fiz

[frail bobcat]

Deino exists

[keen plover]

Ok. What do you nerf about stego that doesn't make it bad?

[wheat ridge]

and a utah pack could easly kill it if they have more than 1 braincell

[dusky surge]

Fair take, but I still think the "stego main" strawman argument is unbelievably cringe just because some people don't want it turned to fodder so land deino meta comes back

[true ginkgo]

At least deinos mass murder each other.

[hollow saddle]

When did I say nerf stegosaurus? Learn to read

[dusky surge]

Because they have to out of desperation because stegos keep them in line from stealing every corpse under the sun

[wheat ridge]

there is no mass stegos, and some kill each other, there are just not enough there because the gameplay is boring

[keen plover]

You complained about stego in your post and saying stego mains were against nerfs. Just wanted to know if you had any nerf ideas?

[true ginkgo]

They’re on each other’s diet too. Even without stego they would murder each other

[dusky surge]

Eh, I'm not too sure. I think they'd take advantage of the more freedom they have when it comes to food selection

[wheat ridge]

everytime i grew a stego i killed it a few hours later because its so damn slowwww

[hollow saddle]

I don't necessarily think it needs a nerf just love annoying stego munchkins. Once more large and small creatures are in it should balance itself. Carno can't eat stego but they can go for the weaker herb. Rex can eat stego.

[frail bobcat]

Allo packs should fix the problem

[hollow saddle]

Problem is there's 2 sizable herbis currently so stego and utsh really have nothing to hunt

[keen plover]

Fair enough

[hollow saddle]

Once more of everything are here there's more options and variety of food

[true ginkgo]

One solution could be cap stegos growth to 75% and rename it wuerhosaurus. Then later on uncap growth and name it stego again.

[keen plover]

No. 75% stego would just get flooded by everything. That's like 3.5T at most iirc

[frail bobcat]

Or just let stego be and give it a slight nerf?

[dusky surge]

then deino destroys it

[keen plover]

Also the reach of a 75% would make it so utah packs would swarm the poor thing lol

[hollow saddle]

We need to stop fighting and push our efforts towards developers rush them into more content lol

[true ginkgo]

Then you end up with an apex level animal getting trashed by smalls. Which is jarring af.

[frail bobcat]

Slight nerf

[keen plover]

Only nerf I could see is lowering its running stamina or speed, but then you make it unbearable to play

[true ginkgo]

To be fair 3-4 utahs already wreck it. Utah mains will whine until they can solo it

[hollow saddle]

Not if there's a rock within 3 km

[true ginkgo]

It’s already pain to travel with

[keen plover]

Exactly

[frail bobcat]

Then why should stego be capped at 75% growth again?

[hollow saddle]

Imagine offering a trash nerf then pooping over the other ideas

[true ginkgo]

To shut up the 56324673 utah mains as feedback is full of them

[frail bobcat]

I think its not only the utah mains

[calm ibex]

i think diets should just be harder for stegos to limit their numbers further, i also would not mind if diets impacted stats to prevent people from camping at x river with a single diet

[hollow saddle]

I just want spino and sucho

[frail bobcat]

Stegos should take more food to sustain

[hollow saddle]

Agree varied diet important force people to move to maintain it

[calm ibex]

~~inc wall about how awful moving around for diets is ~~

[golden coral]

Great argument right there, clearly the way to prove your point and convince others of your view!

[keen plover]

Tbf, they already consume a lot of pumpkins for instance to get diets.

[hollow saddle]

I ain't got no argument just find it amusing the amount of Downvotes

[true ginkgo]

Nerf stego: jarring as you end up with an apex sized animal being equal with things a fraction of its size.
Delete stego: solves the issue but hurts the already barebones roster.
Replace with kentro: would take another 12 years for kentro to be ready.
Cap growth and rename: same as stat nerf, but is a more convincing size for its stats.
Leave as is: invincible to most of the roster. Basically acts as an empty player slot.

[hollow saddle]

Gotta mess with weak minds that react to that level

[calm ibex]

that moment when kentro was not mentioned even on the second batch of playables

[true ginkgo]

Literally no good option with stego. Every single solution has a problem

[keen plover]

Isn't it apart of the first batch?

[golden coral]

Make stego properly fun and difficult via mechanics and abilities, do the same for deino, then nerf its raw stats and growth time together with deino, and have them both be fun to play, properly dangerous, but still easy for the current roster to take out. When other big things are in, scale up stats again, so current roster can't touch them.

[keen plover]

and more

[calm ibex]

yes... i just love vague comments

[keen plover]

lmao

[true ginkgo]

Not a fan of just nerfing stats as it is visually very jarring to see apex level animals struggling with smalls.

[golden coral]

I think a stat nerf for both of them would work fine, apex or not, if they function properly, have good mechanics, both in combat and outside, and as such, play the way they should, just not at full power. They would "struggle" only in the sense of not requiring as many hits to die, but in return they'd more or less guarantee that some of the attackers are going to die for it. Then in the future, with proper stats added, they become properly "untouchable" as they should.

[analog mirage]

You know the only real issue I have with stegos is body camping. Otherwise I think they are fine

Utahs can easily take one down, and you can walk away from them if you don’t want to fight

[golden coral]

@analog mirageDo you know how much stam a utah loses on pounce miss? How many pounces can you do in a row before you're out of stam?

[true ginkgo]

Honestly not managed to think of a good solution to bodycamping.

making herbis stressed or debuffed around bodies makes sense.

but then carnis would intentionally clog up herbi nests with bodies to prevent them nesting.

[dusky surge]

They'd do more than that

Herbivores would be punished for defending their nests, their food supplies, they'd be chased with meat by faster carnivores to make them sick

You found a nice place to rest and mind your own business? Haha get fucked corpse smell

[wintry mountain]

For pachy to two shot utah on the body would be to exceed the old values, it'd actually be near on par with up4 values

[half girder]

L

[ocean sentinel]

Couldn't you just allow herbivores to move the bodies?

[neon willow]

Then you'd run into herbis setting up meat traps to attract starving carnis and ambushing them. Seen stegos do it where they hide above a ridge waiting for crocs

[slim dragon]

Or they'd just drop the bodies in unnaccessible places

[ocean sentinel]

They're only going to be able to do that if there's one nearby.

[ocean sentinel]

That's better than them camping it, because if some stego tries to charge you, you at least have time to react.

Besides if it gives them some debuff for being near it they are only going to drag it for as long as they have to unless they are extremely determined to troll someone, because they are in a vulnerable spot as long as they are near it.

[true ginkgo]

Which then comes with the issue of herbis moving any bodies they find into inaccessible spots in order to stop carnis eating.

[ocean sentinel]

Someone already mentioned that

And I already replied to it.

[true ginkgo]

Maybe bodies stressing herbis, but if it's within a certain radius of their nest, that stress isn't applied.

[ocean sentinel]

That would probably be simpler way of fixing the issue

[true ginkgo]

means they can't randomly bodycamp, but carnis can't grief herbi nests be piling bodies and meat in them.

[neon willow]

Idk the body camping issue doesn't have a great/easy solution

[ocean sentinel]

I don't see the issue with what Frumpkin suggested.

And even if there's no easy fix, something is better than nothing, because even if it back fires to some extent it at least shows the devs care enough about the games issues to try and fix them.

[rough oasis]

[frail bobcat]

@near minnow maybe make it not double the lenght rather like 40 minutes (thats utahs hunger timer)

[near minnow]

I dont think 40 minutes changes much, utahs get away with 40 minutes because they eat a lot less than carnos do so bodies last longer / can feed a larger pack. Utahs arent meant to be ambush predators so much as pack hunters; sometimes they ambush sometimes they just roll up and chase their prey down. Carnos with their bad stam pool / regen don't really have that luxury, increasing hunger by 10 minutes would mean you can maybe stalk prey a little bit but it wouldn't let you set up ambush spots. Maybe 60 minutes is too much, but definitely around the 50 minute mark if Carnos are to play to their strengths imo. Carnos are strongest when they are able to utilize the element of surprise. I've taken down 4-5 utahs in a pack of 10+ as a solo carno by being able to creep up on them. But that takes precious time to set up properly, an extra 10 minutes doesnt really buy you the time you need for it.

Like the ideal scenario is seeing a pack of prey near river drinking, you send 1 carno (lets say 3 total carnos) to each bush that effectively encircles them and then you wait for them to come to one of you. This takes time and there isnt even a guarantee they come to you, they might cross river and you just wasted all that time setting up the ambush / waiting.

Carno hunger needs to last long enough imo, to try and employ these kinds of ambush strategies at least a couple times.

[frail bobcat]

40 minutes is enough, utahs get away with it and the carno should be able to not stave if they have a 40 minutes timer. If you cant find prey every 40 minutes and hunt them down, thats on you

[near minnow]

its not hunting down prey, its ambushing prey. that is the difference.

[frail bobcat]

Then you need to be less perfectionistic with your ambushes

[near minnow]

thats not perfectionistic, that is simply playing to the carnos strengths, small stam pool, bad stam regen, paper thin bleeds.

you want prey to come to you, giving carno 10 minutes of hunger isnt giving you time to let prey to come to you, it just means you dont die to starvation / force cannibalize party members as often.

[muted panther]

That’s not how a carno ambush should play out, in my opinion. Deino is the one who sits and waits. As a carno, I think you should find a herbivore herd and stalk them from the distance until they’re vulnerable. Sprint towards them, use your charge and begin fighting. Carno is a much more active type of ambush predator.

Also, carnos hunger is 45 minutes. Plenty of time.

[frail bobcat]

I think a good ambush is set up in like 30 seconds and distraction is a big factor in it. one carno charges and distract them, then you charge in and knock the prey down

[frail bobcat]

imma check the patchnotes real quick

[near minnow]

if youre setting up an ambush in 30 seconds youre sitting on 60-70 stam, assuming you were able to walk the whole way while stalking prey.

[muted panther]

Patch notes just say “mass removed per tick increased.”

I think it’s actually the same time as 4.5, it just takes more meat to fill now.

Not 100% on that though.

[frail bobcat]

that means that the hunger drain is not longer, they just need more food

I think

[frail bobcat]

if you walk the entire time, you have 100% stam

[near minnow]

yes but youre not walking to bushes to set up an ambush

that doesnt take 30 seconds mate

[frail bobcat]

yes . . . because sound

[muted panther]

You’re actually crouching to bushes if you’re smart 😛

[near minnow]

so you want to be able to get close enough to them that you crouch walk, but you also expect them not see you? a giant ass dinosaur?

[frail bobcat]

if you are behind the bush

[near minnow]

bruh people are using 3rd person cameras, it is quite easy to see over a bush and behind it.

[muted panther]

Prey is usually most vulnerable while eating/drinking/fighting. All of these activities take time, giving you time to rest up and set up the ambush.

[muted panther]

Only if they’re right next to the bush lmao

[frail bobcat]

and sprinting alerts them even more because fast movement will catch your eye

[near minnow]

what no? like im imagining this in center because you arent finding prey in forests. bushes are few and far between, add onto hills means there are very very few places in the map where you can really get close without setting off alarms, like the prey would have to be afk to not see a dino crouching down a hill. I guess the hills/bushes to the south of utah rock work because theyre gentle rollers rather than giant behemoths and there are enough bushes to jump from. But in center? Nah, anyone worth their salt is gonna see you coming from a mile away.

[frail bobcat]

Then why bother with a ambush in center if it takes that long?

[near minnow]

because thats the only reliable place to find food?

[frail bobcat]

Just hunt normally in center or go to the outskirts of it

[near minnow]

hunger drains too quickly to look for food elsewhere, anywhere else is literally a gamble of finding food, especially if youre in a carno pack of 3 or more

[muted panther]

When ambushing in center, use the tree line to your advantage, as well as the hills and sparse bushes.

[frail bobcat]

use the hills then they wont see you coming

[muted panther]

Once you’re within a distance where they can easily spot you, begin sprinting.

[near minnow]

meh i dont need tips for how to play carno, im perfectly capable of playing it 🤣 im just stating the current gameplay loop of carno is garbage because youre always hungry and you dont get the opportunity to set up ambushes. you wanna say you can set up ambushes in forests / ideal scenarios, great, carno still need more hunger time to gamble finding prey there.

[muted panther]

No?

45 minutes is plenty of time

[near minnow]

its not

it is a gamble to set up ambushes in places that arent hot spots of traffic.

[muted panther]

That’s a problem with map design, not carnos hunger drain

[near minnow]

maybe so, but it is easier to fix carno hunger drain than fix a map

[muted panther]

We’ve seen they’re working on a new map though, and lowering the hunger drain just makes it really easy to play again

[frail bobcat]

ambushes in center are easy, use the hills

[near minnow]

again this relies waiting on prey to come to you, youre not waiting for prey to come to you, you are going after prey and going after prey means there is a good chance that a utah scout (lets be real here, the main source of carno diet is utahs or other carnos) sees you long before you get anywhere close to the main pack.

[frail bobcat]

you can spot em and then sneak up on them

[muted panther]

Seems like you think packs are more organized then they are… no pack I’ve seen has designated “scouts”. They all tend to move in a blob.

[near minnow]

if you spot them, then that means they likely have spotted you, you are the one pursuing them remember? your hunger doesnt let you sit in a nice cozy spot for them to come to you. trust me i know, ive sat on pile of corpses waiting for utahs to come, sometimes it works other times it doesnt, so what chance do you have of that happening with no corpses? none.

[idle delta]

I think the reason why carno starves(it happens to me too) is because the playerbases are too small for the size of the map. I have camped center with 90-120 players and never seen anyone aside from the occasional dieno

[muted panther]

That’s why you don’t wait, you stalk them from the treeline, observing them from afar and slowly moving closer under cover until you can make you’re move.

[near minnow]

it doesnt take a pack to be coordinated, only one player has to be good/smart enough to know there needs to be raptors flanking the outside of the pack

[muted panther]

Never ran into it myself.

[near minnow]

sometimes you do, sometimes you dont, but optimal play is running with scouts, point positions, etc

when im playing carno in a pack im always running point because it means i can surprise / bait utahs, they are more likely to try to gang up 1 carno than 3 or more

[muted panther]

Even if they are organized, you can still stay obscured from the treeline. They will travel around the area, and you can remain covered until they’re close enough to strike. It won’t take 45 minutes.

Camo skins can also help with this

[near minnow]

mate aside from the treeline next to shallows, there is no treeline to scout from, and great shallows treeline exists but most of the action is likely happening further south not always the case obviously, but that covers like 15-20% of the total area of where players are chilling.

[near minnow]

the only viable camo skin atm is solid black, which is hilarious to use btw. 🤣

[muted panther]

The entire center field is surrounded by trees dawg

Every field in this game has a treeline

[harsh basalt]

But you cant find anyone there

[idle delta]

You can just sit in a bush too and listen for the calls and footsteps

Those bushes are plenty big

[near minnow]

east side has a treeline but the hills prevent you from seeing inward, so really you want to be close to the top of those hills to see over them. west side treeline exists on the opposite of deino island, so yeah, gl scouting frmo there. As for south central, no treeline exists that is close enough for you to ambush anyone.

[idle delta]

Treelines are useless, no one goes in them unless its near a path

[near minnow]

well i guess there is the treeline in south near the water cross westside, but that can be such a low traffic spot, sometimes high traffic, sometimes low

[muted panther]

North treeline on the main center field is great for ambushing. So is the south treeline near trashpit

[near minnow]

by goat hill? mate that is a terrible place to try and ambush from what 😂

[muted panther]

Tf is goat hill bruh isle players really got names for everything 💀

[near minnow]

only place in the game where goats spawn, its just behind trash pit / west of salt rocks

[near minnow]

id prefer to use coordinates, but people complain when i ask for coordinates so i just gave up 🤣

[muted panther]

Fair lol

And yeah like I said spiro is a pretty bad map, I still stand by being able to do an “active ambush effectively”, but they should definitely make a better designed map, which it seems like they’re doing already. Like I said before, decreasing carnos hunger drain makes it to easy to play and also incentivizes a play style which I don’t think fits it.

[hasty coyote]

@analog mirage I agree with most of what you’re saying, except the fact that pachy should have a damage buff on ram. It should have its damage buffed on a different ability like alt or headslam. Here are my reasons on why that’s a bad idea:

Buffing ram damage to deal with small tiers makes it too good against larger dinos. You said in your post you want it to 2-shot utahs, that means it would have to deal 225 damage, even more than it did previously. Ram is already an insane punch-up tool, stuns and fractures on a single hit should not be underestimated. It’s why people complained last update that “pachy did better in packs than utah”. Also, it makes ram too good against smaller tiers too: knockdown, fracture, and heavy damage is a lot on a single hit. Which is why I prefer them to buff alt or headslam. That way you have to choose between damage or fractures against smalls and still are forced to break and run against larger dinos.

Essentially, I want pachy to get the teno treatment: make each ability have a use rather than 1 ability that’s better than the rest in 95% of scenarios.

[frail bobcat]

100 damage with the alt bite would be perfect

[hasty coyote]

That’s a bit much. I’d say somewhere around 75. That means you can 1-shot a utah if you hit 3 headshots.

[frail bobcat]

true, maybe 80

[hasty coyote]

75 allows you to deal 225 with the standard 3 hits, exactly half of utahs hp

[frail bobcat]

ok thats better, maybe suggest it

[hasty coyote]

It was part of my previous one, I just didn’t say numbers because that can set some people off.

[frail bobcat]

well, that suggestion really blew up so I can see the devs considering it

[hasty coyote]

Hopefully, we will see. They went the coastal pachy route, something I was also advocating for, so maybe they will do this.

[frail bobcat]

I want it

[analog mirage]

True, make the alt attack good for damage and the ram better for fractures

[frail bobcat]

Ive been thinking about a possible 4th utah attack (alt+rmb) and I cant come up with a good concept, maybe an attack that does good bleed but keeps you moving or something like that

[hasty coyote]

Exactly my point.

[frail bobcat]

Based opinions we have here

[analog mirage]

Utah doesn’t really need another attack

[frail bobcat]

maybe this is why I cant come up with one lol

[analog mirage]

It’s fine as it is

If anything Carno deserves one cause combat with it is pretty mediocre

[frail bobcat]

but what?

A headswing for cc maybe

[hasty coyote]

Bite and pounce do all it needs really. Pounce for massive bleed or a risky move on smalls, but has great reward. Bite is for keeping the target bleeding without committing to a pounce and for killing smalls in a chase.

[analog mirage]

Maybe a Head swing that is more bleed focused with its horns

Using it to cut into stuff

[frail bobcat]

bleed on carno doesnt fit

maybe a head swing that knocks back small targets for a short time (not enough time for the carno to hit them) to escape from being ganged up, could be 50n, would be pretty effective against troodons and stuff

[analog mirage]

Maybe a alt attack where it turns around to ram it’s head into you and cause stagger/knockdown

[hasty coyote]

If y’all give carno more knockdowns, be sure to know how this affects pachy. Since pachy is a prey species that is FORCED to fight carno then get away.

[analog mirage]

Tbf Carno is a creature based on knockdowns

[frail bobcat]

mine would be more like a knockback that gives the carno no chance to get a bite in (rams/pounce would have prio)

Actually, you could just use it to knock them into trees/rocks, screw that idea

[analog mirage]

Oh, maybe a attack where it uses its horns to fling you in a direction

[hasty coyote]

It has knock down on ram, but that is generally predictable. So it can be dodged or parried easily. Plus, it’s a major factor in fights as is, I never ram a carno head on in fear that they will tap charge and break my ribs.

So imagine if I have to be scared about ramming a carno at all, yet I have no choice but to ram them.

[frail bobcat]

that would be bad

[analog mirage]

Just trying to find ways to make Carno gameplay better since if you miss a ram you practically die to whatever you are fighting unless the player is bad

Since you’ve wasted so much stam already

Miss ram, you are at like half stam now and you gotta dip cause you aren’t meant to be brawling stuff

[frail bobcat]

missing your special mechanic should leave you vulnerable (utah cough cough)

utahs pounce is ridicoulus

[analog mirage]

Tbf Carno also has the loudest footsteps ever and is impossible to miss so if you get rammed by the Carno it is usually pretty avoidable

[hasty coyote]

They could make ram less risk less reward. Lower stam cost and damage.

Or when fracture severity comes, we could see if it would work with carno

[neon willow]

Utahs that miss their pounce can and do get trounced. Been mauled by carno, pachy, and stego for missing a pounce or dismount

[analog mirage]

I’d be fine with a lower stam cost on ram with slight fractures just nothing like pachys

Since stamina is a big weakness for it and making it lose even more when ambushing is a issue since that ram can make the difference between a few Utah meals and a horse chasing you down

[frail bobcat]

I have been never since u5

[hasty coyote]

I have not hit a utah that has missed a pounce once so far. They either land it easily or miss so bad I don’t have the time to turn around and ram. I have hit them in dismount tho, trees are good.

[frail bobcat]

1.5 seconds is fine, why did they not do this in the first place?

[hasty coyote]

Because they keep making the same mistake every update: they fix EVERY issue.

Pachy is too good because it can stun lock and deal damage? Well now it can do neither.
Utah pounce is too unreliable and gets you killed because recovery is too long? Well now you don’t have to worry about either.

They remove too many weaknesses and make the Dino too strong or remove too many strengths and make it weak.

[neon willow]

I think I started playing after u5 so it's all I've ever known. Messing up a pounce on a stego is fatal-- 1 shot for sure if they are remotely good.

Pachy it's a mixed bag. Good pachys will bonk ya and break something. If they also get knockdown on you you're finished unless other Utah's bait or pounce them to get them off you. You either have to abandon the fight and heal fractures or you end up dying if they're good pachys.

Carnos can 3 tap if I remember correctly. The main thing with them is avoiding the charge, but if you whiff a bite or 2 because you don't have the timing of the pounce right it puts you out of action for the fight

[analog mirage]

They buff one thing and nerf another

[frail bobcat]

true

[analog mirage]

I feel the Carno nerfs weren’t necessarily and pachy just got nerfed too hard while Utah got buffed too much

[hasty coyote]

Meanwhile teno stays a chad and is always good.

[frail bobcat]

the carno nerfs were necessary, the main reason its kinda weak right now cause of the food situation that makes it weak to bleed

[hasty coyote]

If pachy gets the hit first, or gets a leg break, then the utah has to run. Otherwise, the utah can continue the fight.

[analog mirage]

How does the food situation make it weak to bleed?

[hasty coyote]

Less food = more damage by bleed

Me and Dino tested it recently

[analog mirage]

I never noticed that

[frail bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/scientist-science-im-a-scientist-gif-14090115

[golden coral]

Food, water, stam, and health all affect bleed far as I know. Some of them changes bleed time, others the damage of the bleed. At least how it used to be, though it could be changed now I guess.

[frail bobcat]

it isnt

[hasty coyote]

Yeah we didn’t test exactly what each affects but there is a diff between full food and water and less

[golden coral]

Alright. So always keep everything topped off!

[frail bobcat]

yes

[hasty coyote]

Yep

[frail bobcat]

Do you know the actual thing that was changed about carnos food?

[hasty coyote]

It was either that it ate faster or had to eat more

All it said was:
Hunger intake
Increased mass per tick

[frail bobcat]

ok

[hasty coyote]

But they also nerfed boar, so it’s harder to sustain off them

And most people play utah, which counter carno atm.

[dusky surge]

it doesnt increase damage, it increases duration

[hasty coyote]

Which increases the total bleed damage by the end.

I just meant that the less full you are, the more bleed will do. A pounce while full will leave you with more blood than a pounce at no food/water.

[keen plover]

@grim steppe Teno runs at 40.5 km/h while utah runs at 46.8 km/h

Utah also runs for longer

105 seconds of stamina iirc to tenos 90 seconds

[grim steppe]

Oh, then that website I checked told me wrong cause it said that tenos speed is 45

[keen plover]

That was before the universal speed nerf

Everything is slower now

[grim steppe]

And last time I faced against a pack of tenos it felt like he was constantly on my ass, do you have an in game screenshot of it's stats full grown?

[keen plover]

Teno has very good agility so that's probably why it turned well on you.

[grim steppe]

Yeah I noticed their turn radius is very good, which made is hard to get close to the smaller ones

[keen plover]

Teno was designed around being able to defend against utah well - seeing as it was the first creature added alongside it.

[grim steppe]

So another question, does that mean pachy is faster than a teno? Since pachy is 41.8

[keen plover]

Yep

[keen plover]

I don't have screenshots, but I do remember the values.

[grim steppe]

Cause I never fully grew a teno so I couldn't check it's full grown stats, but I always had the impression that teno was a bit faster

than pachy

But like you said it could be that agility

[keen plover]

Yep. It also has a really fast trot

Fastest in the game

[grim steppe]

I wonder if having a perfect diet vs utah who has a great diet would make it seem like they have more stamina. I can't remember what my diet was back in that scenario I was thinking about when writing that text, but 30% regen vs 7.5% could make a big difference

[keen plover]

So they regain stamina more quickly if they have maximum diets. Although, I'm not sure on the base % gained for each playable

You still have the same total stamina pool regardless of diet state

So a utah with 0 diets will have the same stamina pool of a utah with 3 diets

[grim steppe]

This is why I kinda wish we knew more stats and had easier access to them. I solo hunt utah to learn more about what it can and cannot do, and I want to try and master it that way. But it's hard when all my experience about other dinos comes from battling them, sometimes things can seem different than what the stats would tell me

[grim steppe]

I understand that, with the diet part I meant that if they have 30% regen and I would have 7.5%, they would regen their stamina more when standing around waiting for my move and vice versa

But you never know what diet the other person has

so hard to know if you have the stamina advantage or them

[keen plover]

Good question. Sadly. I don't know how well it regens compared to utah with each diet. It would be easy to test, however - I can't be bothered since stats aren't really in their final states yet.

[grim steppe]

Yeah, wish there was an easier and quicker way to test these things as well

[keen plover]

Yeah I feel you on that. The easiest solution is timing your stamina regained with 1/3 - 3/3 diets in all states. (sitting, standing, trotting) However, it would be quite a time sink in a survival setting - although easy in a test server setting

But again - I'm personally not really bothered with finding out those particular values until the game is complete.

[grim steppe]

Knowing those stats about every dino would be significantly more helpful, but unfortunately we will not have access to them for a really long time, or probably ever

I guess knowing their speed now, I will try to change up my tactic when approaching tenos

[keen plover]

Yeah. They're still fast enough to catch you off guard

[grim steppe]

Would it be better to initiate the fight by pouncing on them straight away? I'm always scared of pouncing as a solo utah cause stamina is really important to me, and bucking makes it drain fast. So when it comes to fighting a carno, pachy or teno I tend to not pounce unless I get that sneak advantage, since all 3 of them are fast enough to keep up with me and run me down if they have full stamina and I'm not from the pounce and buck

But then I'm not sure how much bleeding they would suffer from running after me

This is again something that is hard to know as the attacker since I cannot see their bleed value, so I tend to play very slowly

[hasty coyote]

For pachy, the pounce is worth it, you just need to hop off early enough to escape. Just have an escape plan, whether that’s a forest, bush, or other utahs. If a pachy tries to run you down, they are getting dropped to at MOST 40% of their bleed. And at worst, they just flat out die. So unless it can catch and kill you quickly, chasing a utah screws over a pachy.

[grim steppe]

That's good to know. Though is there a way for pachys to buck more than usual? Cause me and another full grown utah fought a full grown pachy once in the center. I pounced him and 1.5 seconds later my stamina was at around 10% or less. It seems like he was bucking and doing alt attacks. The other utah pounced afterwards and he fell on the ground after what felt like 1.5 seconds as well, like he ran out of stamina. But we both had full stamina before this

Not sure if that was just some weird bug or if there is a secret unknown way to do like a mega buck

felt really weird

[hasty coyote]

I’m pretty sure pachy bucks off utahs faster than other animals. I noticed that when testing the bleed values for it and carno. However, bucking drains pachy’s stam a lot in return.

[keen plover]

Honestly. Test the waters

If a teno is gung-ho on attacks and slams, you can probably think that they are bad.

Then I'd advise you to pounce

However, if all dinos are played optimal - the only thing a solo utah should hunt is equal sized creatures

[grim steppe]

So their stamina drains as well when they buck, but I guess it's probably not that much. Good to know and I'll keep that in mind, especially that they buck utahs off faster

[hasty coyote]

Yeah solo utah is a bit rough, most played Dinos are out of your size range.

[keen plover]

Yep. If you're solo - only go for teno - carno MAX. However know that you will die if you make a mistake & only fight them if they're bad

[hasty coyote]

As a rough estimate, I’d say it drains like 10-15% of their stam when they buck.

[keen plover]

You can generally tell a lot by how good a player is with experience though

[grim steppe]

Yeah I noticed that, but even though I end up making some mistakes sometimes, it's a good learning experience as well. I weirdly enough find it the easiest to hunt stegos as a solo utah, probably cause of their slow speed, even though they can 1 tap me while I have to attack them a lot

[keen plover]

Yeah, dying is part of the process. Over time, you'll know exactly what you can and cannot do

Also utah grow is - in regards to this game - a short grow

[grim steppe]

I definitely improved quite a lot as a solo utah since I started playing solo. Going for longer slower more calculated fights is better now than trying to just end a fight quickly which is what I tried to do early on. Baiting attacks has became easier and more predictable but I will always have the disadvantage of being solo and dying in like 1-5 hits, depending on the dino I hunt.

But yeah the quick grow definitely helps

[keen plover]

I love how the Isle makes us think 75 minutes is a quick grow (Don't get me wrong, I think grow times are fine)

[grim steppe]

Compared to other dinos at that size it feels fast :p tried growing a carno the other day and got a bit bored waiting

[keen plover]

Yeah carno is quite long tbf

I do hope it's like 2 hours max in the future - cause damn I can only imagine larger carnivores

[keen plover]

But yeah, take your time with fights. The only things I try to end 'quick' is against pachy. I always aim for the ambush pounce.

[grim steppe]

Yeah maybe they change the values a bit with more dinos being added, cause right now carno is the biggest land carnivore.

[hasty coyote]

12 hour rex

[keen plover]

Rex should be like 6-7 hours max

[grim steppe]

Yeah thanks you two for helping me out and giving me those stats and values. I definitely will keep those in mind when playing next time.

[keen plover]

I do think that diets shouldn't effect growth as much as now

[keen plover]

All good mate. Hope you have fun!

[hasty coyote]

No problem, good luck out there.

[zealous hawk]

Is there any reason for the timer to be on where you can spawn? It's not like you can revenge kill as a baby.

[frail bobcat]

Its because of revenge killing

If you have been killed by another one

[zealous hawk]

I mean unless you were killed by another baby thats not gonna happen. I just find it extra annoying when trying to play with friends and I couldn't think of why it was even necessary other than limiting baby wars

[frail bobcat]

It is kinda necessary

Imagine being killed near one and just spawning as a hypsi to annoy your killer

[zealous hawk]

It wouldn't be so bad if we could just tab invite people again I guess lol. This was a point of frustration for us last night someone's suggestion reminded me of it

[zealous hawk]

They just spawn south and run back to center which is where most of the shenanigans happen lol

Or NW

[frail bobcat]

It lessens the problem

[zealous hawk]

True

[frail bobcat]

I understand why it was added

[somber sphinx]

So you dont kill yourself then eat your body afterwards

[zealous hawk]

I kinda do. It's still just annoying. I guess what I really wish is just a normal invite system

Travel was always part of the isle but especially for new players the social element of this game is lacking, even just inviting people to your group can be janky and annoying af

I like the idea of the 2 call invite, but it's very annoying imo.

[hasty coyote]

There’s quite a few reasons: revenge killing other babies, feeding other players, feeding yourself, attacking people as a a baby (utah babies especially), causing lag by creating bodies, etc.

[hasty coyote]

We have nesting for that now, but nesting has its own issues sadly.

[hasty coyote]

@Jan#7205 That’s more of an issue with growth. Sometimes things seem like they should be much stronger or weaker.

However, a stego roughly the size of a carno would be like 60-80% of the adult size, which means it would do between 750-and 1000 damage. Both of which are enough to 2-shot carno with headshots on the low end, or just 2-shot by the body on the higher end.

@faint oar since my phone decided not to tag you

[azure hinge]

@rigid spade i dont play carno, i just watch utahs fk them up and would rather it be a bit more even

[true ginkgo]

Stego is equal size to adult carno once it's between 55% and 60% growth.

1645kg at 55%, and 2000kg at 60%. 100% carno is 1800kg.

And even then, stego should rightfully be winning a 1v1 on average. Considering it's completely incapable of fleeing while carno supposed to be fighting animals smaller than itself.

[rigid spade]

The reason why there are so many Utahs is because they can grow in 45-55 minutes. But they still die very easily as always. They also had only 30-85% % of hunting success when they hunted big stego. But their hunting success % will immediately be 0 when stego players stand their ass against a tree LOL.

[rigid spade]

yes because the Carno was not designed to hunt large animals. Although there are still some Korean players on the AU1 still trying to make a stupid megapack carno trying to do that. lol

[true ginkgo]

At 55%, stegos tail attack does 510 damage. While at 60% it does 597 damage.

@faint oar So either way, it won't be two hitting carno. It will be 4 hitting it, or if it gets headshots it will be taking 3 hits.

1 headshot and two bodyshots would also do it.

[rigid spade]

In the case of Tenon, they should be in a herd, when they are in a herd they are very strong. But the problem with herds is that they will lack food, which to me they don't want to buff anything for the tenonto, just add them more food for the gregarious form for the Tenonto. just 4-6 full adult tenonto in packs. Utah will get problem to fight with pack vs pack.For me tenon, they have a fairly fast rate of food and nutrition loss compared to the distance they have to lose in acquiring them.

[neon willow]

I more often than not solo teno (not many of my gaming buddies like herbis T_T) and I find the opposite true. I have something like 200% in every nutrient atm on my adult because tenos cover ground

[hasty coyote]

Saying certain dinos are “herd dinos” or “pack dinos” really annoys me because none of them are balanced around being exclusively in a herd. Every Dino can herd or pack up, so it’s a mute point.

[neon willow]

They do need to eat frequently though which is another reason I have so much nutrients. Hunger drain is fast

[neon willow]

True, although some benefit from it more than others -- Utah being able to trade out to bait or bleed out much larger dinos being a prime example

Stegos or deinos almost can't do that because of the high risk of friendly fire-- a lot of times utahs harassing a herd of stegos do a lot less damage to the stegos than the stegos do to each other trying to hit the Utahs

(although neither stego nor deino are particularly friendly to others of their species which doesn't help)

[true ginkgo]

Yep this. Nothing should require a group to function.

[hasty coyote]

Oh definitely, almost all dinos function better in packs/herds, some are even able to take down bigger threats than solo. However, all dinos are viable solo. A lone utah can hunt ai, juvies, and dinos it’s size and smaller. Then it can just run away from anything it can’t hunt.

[neon willow]

True

[azure crescent]

@faint oar how the hell is stego the same size as carno

[faint oar]

by being not a full size stego?

[azure crescent]

oh you meant a juvi stego the size of a carno

right

a stego at roughly the same size as a carno does between 700-800 damage, and if one of those is a headshot, of course its gonna 2 shot you

[toxic seal]

There seem to be an alliance of carno, croco and bird in northwest by the waterfall. One croc defended a carno earlier, and a bird defended a croc, and I also saw a bird feeding a carno after a fight so it doesn't die of bleed. I am not sure if this is the right place to ask but I was wondering if it is legit. I have some recording of it if needed.

[slim dragon]

It's not really the right channel
But there are no rules on official servers anyway
You can despise this sort of behavior, but it's legit

[toxic seal]

oh right my bad im playing on a private server and tought this was the discord, oops. Keep up your good work tho I like to read all the suggestions and balance and stuff you guys are writing. I got this game fairly recently and it is really fun so far ! I wish the raptors wouldn't get one shot by so many things but its okay because the process of getting big is fun !

[void thorn]

Hello, pteranodon needs a few changes whit his diet. im playing pt for a while now. i would even say im prety good in hunting juvies. And hunting juvies is the main purpose of this Dino, i guess But it seems pointless cuz no playble dino exept the hipsy is on the diet. so killing juvies seems just cruel and mean after a while. for example, with luck i manage it to kill about 8-15 juvies whith one bird. but still i have to spent so much time at rivers looking for the perfekt diet. it seems completly pointless to hunt juvies after a while unless u are just a .... i would love to be able to have a benefit of killing and eating other players. on the other hand, it would make the pt more vulnerable to other player cuz he needs to land to eat his actual prey. my sugsestion: Add to the current PT diet all Juvie dinos.

[carmine patrol]

I think this is the wrong channel

[carmine patrol]

I have the solution, wrote it down in balance feedback

[true ginkgo]

@verbal nacelle honestly i'd rather see them just removed until equivalent carnivores are added.

rather than turning them into an apex sized small tier

adding stego this early with no effective carnivores was weird af

sure deino is big, but it's designed to be amazing at taking on things half its size or lower. It's a punch down animal which makes it poor against stego.

making it completely unsuited to prey on them

[golden coral]

@verbal nacelleWhen your own playable is as vunerable as stego overall, you might have a point. But right now, the only thing you need to fear is another deino, or groups of them more likely. Just like stego for it's own kind. If you feel that stego is too good and has no effective counter, then take a look at deino and realize that it's superior in pretty much all cases in a comparison.

[neon willow]

Honestly, both deino and stego need a counter. Unfortunately until more dinos are added, though, this is what we've got to work with

[golden coral]

That much is true. I just take issue when people argue that stego is somehow the "invincible" playable when deino has an entire "biome" where it's untouchable to any but it's own kind unless it plays badly (and some very minor map issues as we've discussed, but in general you shouldn't die to stegos either, much as they can be a bother at times). And we do need more reason for stegos to disagree with each other and not join up in bigger herds, and I'd like to see that for most playables really, more fighting between diferent packs and herds please!

[neon willow]

Yeah for sure. More than 2 stegos is a really hard group to fight, and ditto really for 5 carnos, 10 tenos, 15 raptors, etc etc. Mechanics that makes it hard for players to hang out in large groups (with large defined by the power of the dino-- a "large" group of stegos is maybe 3 or more adults while a "large" group of dryos could be 10 or more) would be nice. And not just physically preventing grouping up, but preventing overpopulation in any one region. Easiest way would be to limit food sources in areas with X dinos of a given type, forcing players to split up or starve

[true ginkgo]

at least deinos casually murder each other so have a counter.

while stegos prefer to just all group up into a megaherd

[neon willow]

I've both seen megapacked deinos, and been casually murdered by fellow stegos

[true ginkgo]

honestly I think an ok temporary solution is capping stego growth to 75% (and renaming it wuerhosaurus), and deino growth to 80%.

then uncapping their growth once larger things are in

[wispy valley]

I've said that many times but people bitched at me.

We need to hire a statistician or someone who can do basic math for game balance. Devs don't know what the fuck they're doing.

[somber sphinx]

or replace them when kentro and bary is done

[wispy valley]

I've suggested that, too >>

"LOL stego and deino done better pur them in an ecosystem filled with creatures less than 3 tons"

Sure. What could go wrong?

[golden coral]

By then we might have other bigger things too xD

[somber sphinx]

true

[wispy valley]

That's like putting a cheetah or a pride of lions in a Savannah filled with rhinos and elephants and cape Buffalo.

It's not gonna work

Lions can't consistently kill rhinos and they can't kill adult elephants. They can't rely on juveniles.

[true ginkgo]

That would be better, but would take months or years of development to add them. Simply adding a growth cap would be far easier.

[wispy valley]

I'm concrned about Deino's low damage. It should have 1000 per snap. If Deino is 500, the fuck will Rex have? 450?

[true ginkgo]

Deino seems designed as a pure ‘punch down’ animal.

Where it can one shot anything below 4 tons, but is useless vs things above 4 tons.

[golden coral]

That's because A, the biteforce is just a damage stat and B, damage is balanced for the mechanic. Rex might have 600-750 maybe, though I imagine even it will have relatively low damage since it hopefully also gets extra attacks and mechanics to use.

[true ginkgo]

I reckon rex will end up with 750-800 bite damage.

[neon willow]

Exactly. Remember realism is great, but realism has to serve mechanics/balance/gameplay. In situations where the two conflict, priority has to be given to the latter. Same reason you can't just sleep through the night, despite that being realistic for most diurnal species. Functionally it's just not fun to have an hour of downtime sleeping because you're a diurnal dino

[golden coral]

Realism as far as the critter and it's abilities goes is fine, but for specific stats, balance takes priority. Of course, what exactly is balance is an entire discussion of it's own! As for sleeping, I think you could probably do something to give sleep ingame (and not just for logout) something useful to give a reason to do it but also not just be staring at a black screen. At least I have some ideas, but if it would be technically doable, absolutely no idea.

[wispy valley]

I wouldn't mind sleeping if it meant I could stay online in a safe place while my dino makes barely any noise at all while I eat, go to the bathroom, wash my hands, brush my teeth...

And maybe heal more wounds quickly, too.

[alpine plover]

@alpine plover do you also advocate for the tail to be 100 meters longer?

[alpine plover]

Yes.

glad we agree🤝

[dusky surge]

this is all well and good in concept but i've seen packs of 13 deinos strong basking by the waters

[tall bronze]

If only bigger things had to actually work hard to maintain food n' such ;-;

[dusky surge]

@slender kettle Allo is most likely already a bleeder animal, but it absolutely should not have a lower bite force than carno

it's nearly 1 ton larger

[slender kettle]

Jaws are weaker than a lions

[dusky surge]

It's also WAAAY bigger than a lion

it being incapable of killing a utah effectively would be pretty pathetic ngl

[slender kettle]

But it could deliver some solid damage over time rather than straight bite power. It'd be good to make it's opponents flee and hide to heal the blood loss

[mental roost]

Pretty sure it having weaker jaws than a lion isn't accurate anymore....but don't quote me on that, best bet would be going through paleotalk for that.

[slender kettle]

I prefer Allo over Carno any day, but Carno needs some advantage. Besides it'd be a change of pace having a bleeder carnivore added that tracks it's prey down like a Komodo rather that bringing it's victim down on the spot like a Utah or Carno.

[dusky surge]

Carno has the advantage of vastly superior speed to every land animal on the roster

[slender kettle]

But shitty stam

[dusky surge]

Wouldn't the animal you described be perfect as a role for megalania, the literal massive komodo dragon

[slender kettle]

IF it gets added. Nothing said is truth with this dev team

[dusky surge]

It's literally confirmed

They have it in the official roster

[tall bronze]

🦎

[slender kettle]

It was also confirmed by Dondi that Deino would have the ability to constantly grow with no limit

[dusky surge]

And clearly plans changed when they realised it wouldn't be good for the game

[slender kettle]

My point, exactly

[dusky surge]

They aren't scrapping mega

Like I still don't think making allo have weirdly low bite force is the way to go

[slender kettle]

Low bite force, high bleed damage
Excellent trade-off to me.

[dusky surge]

Or do what you do with utah

The special ability is what does the bleed

And the bite force exists for just kind of basic damage and bleed

No need to give it this weird exception where it ends up incapable of effectively killing small tiers

[tall bronze]

I immensely dislike the idea of making things oddly weak/unable to do something they can realistically do for the sake of balance. I feel there's always a way to make it work 😛 It's why I get baffled when I see things like "Rex needs lots of damage so no fractures because OP"

[teal sand]

This is a myth that was debunked

If it was SCALED down to a lions size the bite was weaker. But a full grown allos bite is way stronger

[dusky surge]

exactly

proportionally speaking

allo is clearly stronger with its superior size

[verbal zenith]

They are actually pretty close with Allo being 200 newtons higher than carno

[dusky surge]

okay you are using real life

which unfortunately is meaningless in the Isle

[verbal zenith]

With the 165 newtons i believe for carno in game, Allo should be around 200 or at most 220's

[keen plover]

Carno biteforce should be upped to 200n imo. Also allo should be like 250-275n.

[carmine patrol]

Nah, Allo's bite shouldn't be over 250N

[carmine patrol]

I heavily doubt that

They're about the same size, I think evrima's allo would weigh 2-2.2tons

[dusky surge]

It’s like 2.7 tons in EVRIMA lmao

[carmine patrol]

Was that before or after the weight=health system?

Even Teno used to weigh like 2.9tons before the weight=health system iirc

And utah was like 950kg

[keen plover]

Eh. 275n is still fine. Also allo is 2.8T-3T for AMNH 680 specimen

[carmine patrol]

2.5-3 SHORT tons

Still at 2300-2700kg

[keen plover]

No. As in 2800kg-3000kg.

[carmine patrol]

2.3-2.7 metric tons

And the average allo weights 1.7 tons as you can see

[keen plover]

Not sure how up to date the values are, but these were from early this year

[carmine patrol]

Good enough

2.6-2.8 tons here

Question is

Will the devs make their allo weigh as much as the heaviest specimen ever or as heavy as an average allo

Or maybe somewhere in between

[frail bobcat]

Nobody knows

[carmine patrol]

I think putting it somewhere in between would be the best option, like 2.3T

[dusky surge]

pretty sure its listed on size charts for the isle as 2.7 tons

nvm its been upped to 2.8

making it 1 ton larger than carno

[carmine patrol]

Is that thing even official?
Cus I'm pretty sure it's not

I heavily doubt that it would be 1 ton heavier than carno despite being at around the same size

[frail bobcat]

It heavily undoubt it. Its way more massive than the carno

You can have a skinny runner and a bodybuilder of the same size and the bodybuilder weights more than half of the runners weight

[carmine patrol]

Let's do this with Randy Orton as the body builder and Usain Bolt as the runner.
Bolt: height=194 weight=94
Orton: height=196 weight=113

Not more than half

[frail bobcat]

You took one example

[carmine patrol]

Give me one example where the body builder is 50% heavier than a runner while being at around the same height

[frail bobcat]

Take a gorilla, its 440 while being at a height of six feet

Now compare that to a human

It makes sense for it to be a ton heavier

[frail bobcat]

The allosaurus and carnotaurus have that are built differently

[frail bobcat]

And there is a bodybuilder, markus rühl, that is 130 kg while being 178 cm high

[carmine patrol]

Allo to carno isn't that bulky compared to a carno tho

[frail bobcat]

Just an example that things the same height can have big weight differences

[carmine patrol]

True

But allo still isn't that big compared to a carno

We really need @short estuary here🙄

A size chart showing carno and allo facing each others would be really helpful

[frail bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/0AptLpu_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[frail bobcat]

The allo in the size charts is 15 cm higher and 1.4 meters longer

[carmine patrol]

How much thicker tho?

[frail bobcat]

Compare their concept arts

[carmine patrol]

Doesn't look like allo is 1 ton thicker than the horned speed demon

[frail bobcat]

The legs are much more massive, the body , tail and head too

[carmine patrol]

True

But that's like 500kg max

It's not that much bigger

Let's say the head weighs 100kg more

Arms 150

Legs 150

[short estuary]

Hi, couldn’t find the actual image so I had to settle for a screenshot of the image

Allo is easily larger by a tonne

Big arms

Larger neck and far larger head

Also never trust the concept sizes

[carmine patrol]

Thank you!
Our saviour XD

[carmine patrol]

This dude does look a lot bigger here

Any side view?

[short estuary]

Sadly not, can’t get a size chart rn. Look at novas for good scale

https://imgur.com/a/yBUsBg2

[carmine patrol]

Hmm, looks like most of the extra weight is in the head and neck

So maybe 200kg in them?

[short estuary]

I mean… Allo is a very muscular animal. Incredibly powerful neck muscles, large powerful legs and arms and a really powerful tail

Tail and torso alone probably weigh as much as Carno

Theropod skulls are quite lightweight

So it doesn’t put it up by a lot

[carmine patrol]

Alr ty

[silk harness]

Anyone else feel like there should be a terrestrial predator to fill the size gap between alberto and acro? Torvosaurus when?

[dusky surge]

doesnt sucho do that

[silk harness]

Something that isn't semi-aquatic is what I meant

Although I dont think we have any idea how well sucho will do away from water, I kinda assumed it would be fairly dependent on staying near water

[dusky surge]

sucho is basically a shallow-wader from what we know

[silk harness]

If it doesn't have the legacy curse of being slower than apexes it could do pretty well on land

[dusky surge]

i mean, wouldn't be that upset with it being slower than apexes on land if it was far superior in the shallows

[silk harness]

Same, I'm just going back to my original point of wanting a land predator to fill that huge size gap that sucho fits in. I don't think it should be sucho, but it could be potentially

[azure crescent]

sucho is the most terrestrial out of the semiaquatic

[tacit dagger]

@slender kettle eyy bro, not being disrespectful or anything but that suggestion isn't very good about the allo having a bite force less than carno, cause first off, in reality allo had a stronger bite force even if not by much and weighed more and was even considered more agile. I'd say maybe give it a bite force between 300 to 250 but not less, but I do think they have to buff carnos bite force to 200

The speed Id say 37 or 38km would be fine not more, as it seems to take the lions form of hunting with the Para concept as lions do grapple with large herbs and ambushing from a bush. Thou they might give it an additional ambush type ability since I'm sure without it that Gallo is getting away lol

[tight cove]

@slender kettle Not only do you want allo to do less dmg than a carno you want it to be SLOW as well? 🤣

[slender kettle]

Bite and track the bleed

The blood loss would be higher

[azure crescent]

bleed is directly tied to damage

[keen plover]

For now at least, but yeah

[hasty coyote]

Except with pounce

And deino’s bleed resistance

[dusky surge]

i mean it is still tied

[azure crescent]

it's tied, just triple of the damage iirc

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, but they could make a bite deal like 2x bleed damage

[dusky surge]

yea but idk if they WOULD do that

[hasty coyote]

I prob wouldn’t do this with allo, but maybe something else.

[azure crescent]

they could but why would they

only maybe giga can have this but even then

[dusky surge]

seems like specific modifiers are generally tied to special attacks (troodon gets a pounce to apply venom, utah gets a pounce to apply a higher amount of bleed, pachy rams to apply fracture, etc)

it's likely that the allo grapple will shred your blood pool

and the bite will be another "do damage and basic bleed" attack

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, I don’t think making bite deal bleed rather than raw damage is the best idea for most dinos, but it could be possible if they want a Dino to play uniquely. Hard maybe on mega, unless they give it a second venom+bleed bite

[dusky surge]

you can make that on mega without even changing the old "bite damage and moderate bleed" formula by making the venom anti-coagulant

the bites would do proportionally more bleed to those under the effect of the venom due to it's nature

anti-coagulant could increase the duration and effectiveness of bleed on the target, causing them to bleed faster without giving mega any exceptions to how bleed normally works

[hasty coyote]

Or both in case it doesn’t have venom recharged and needs to defend itself. Plus, if mega is entirely reliant on venom, it may get used in mixpacks

[dusky surge]

its gonna get used in mixpacks thats just how it be

[dusky surge]

we have no clue if venom has a recharge or if it's just a thing

[hasty coyote]

I remember them saying something like that about troo, but it may not apply to all dinos

[keen plover]

I personally think that there should be bleed values per bite. Some creatures are default, others are less, some non existent and others with more.

Allo for instance with a 1.5x - 1.75x of bleed per bite. I'd up carno for example up to 200n bite and gut it's bleed to like half that. so a 0.5x. I'd also revert the bleed changes that it currently has.

The ratio is like 1:1 right now, so I'd make those changes personally.

[analog mirage]

I just fear the sheer amount of bleed a apex would do if it’s tied to damage

[frail bobcat]

It needs more food from corpses, that would fix the carno blood problem

[dusky surge]

how

[frail bobcat]

But apexes hunt larger animals so that would balance it out

[frail bobcat]

How much blood you lose is tied to how much stam, food and water you have

[dusky surge]

no it isnt

the duration of your bleed is tied to that

[frail bobcat]

Therefore you bleed more

So the bloodloss is higher

[analog mirage]

Because Carno has terrible Stam and a fast hunger drain that makes the blood worse and the nerfs to bleeding while standing/walking.

I feel it should either have a bit less blood lose while standing/walking or a slightly faster stam regen while bleeding cause once you do start bleeding you’re basically done for.

[dusky surge]

they could just revert the changes to bloodloss while standing/walking

[analog mirage]

That’s one solution

Cause although I do think Carno is in a relatively good spot, it gets a bit too much punishment

[keen plover]

The food values are fine. Carno gets like 50-60% food for utah and pachy

Yeah, technically it should fill up on them - but it's still a lot of food. The main issue is that it has a 45 minute hunger time

[frail bobcat]

Then why are so many players complaining about starving?

[keen plover]

The hunger time

[frail bobcat]

How high is the one of the utah, for comparison

[keen plover]

Good question. Never bothered to check. 1 Sec. Going on scope to see how much it drains every 5 minutes

Easily an hour

Not sure if it's an hour or more though

Also, the main issue with carno is the food values, hunger time + lack of AI

Also the matchups can suck since people herd / pack up. So you're forced to play in groups if you want to be most successful.

[frail bobcat]

There is enough ai, you just need to know where

[keen plover]

Where as in... go away from hotspots and risk starving in hopes that you find AI that barely fill you?

AI should respawn. Right now, you can deplete an area and it never returns. You require a restart for more of them.

It doesn't have to be frequent either. Just let them slowly fill up

[frail bobcat]

Do they not respawn?

[keen plover]

They're stuck in stasis from what I've gathered

So utah loses 5% every 3 minutes so an hour of hunger for this creature

[lucid urchin]

The longer you spend on a full server will make it more and more difficult to find some over time. They end up getting killed off or chased away into the dense forest or ocean. I find the best time to find AI is right after a reset while pop is still semi-low

[solar lodge]

the amount of deino tears over stego will make central river undrinkable at this rate

[dusky surge]

lmaooo

[ocean sentinel]

Honestly I thought the central river already is undrinkable, with rare exceptions.

I always drink far off in the forest.

[carmine patrol]

is this official btw?

[short estuary]

Not exactly but those are our official models scaled by novas charts

[azure crescent]

@tall bronze the whole reason boars give so little food is because food is indeed tied to weight

[tall bronze]

Ya don't think it's still a little odd that an entire animal isn't even half filling though? 😛 Like you can't tell me Carno's stomach is bigger than an entire boar

[azure crescent]

oh i agree, i'm just explaining that food already is tied to weight

[tall bronze]

Hmm, hopefully it gets better with gore ;_;

[azure hinge]

So those elite fish are heavier than a boar? Or at least same size

[azure crescent]

same size

i assume boar is around 120 kg, which is very possible

and iridescent sharks reach those weights too iirc

mekong catfish (our elite fish) reach weights of 350 kg

so yeah, our elite fish are heavier

[azure hinge]

I have 4 iridescent sharks and they do not reach 120 kg btw @azure crescent

[azure crescent]

meant mekong catfish

[azure hinge]

Ooo okay

[azure crescent]

i confuse the two

[azure hinge]

Yeah but the size they are doesn't reflect weight

And there are plenty of pigs, boars, that get bigger

[azure crescent]

pretty sure that weight=size

if you weigh as much as a truck you're as massive and therefore as large as a truck

also the previous weight for boars was the same as mekong catfish, they just nerfed it for some reason

[muted panther]

The problem isn’t the weight values of the food, it’s that carnos stomach is ridiculously big.

[analog mirage]

So perhaps Carno needs to fill up on less food

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover stego can one tap carno lmao

hit it in the head and it dies

[azure crescent]

@alpine plover deino takes the same time to grow as stego

[slim dragon]

I can't tell if this feedback is sarcasm or not

[carmine patrol]

@alpine plover , you were being sarcastic right?
If so that was really funny

[carmine patrol]

Probably

[tranquil pawn]

Man this is one of the craziest trolls I've seen lmao

[primal harbor]

see, if it was sarcasm he wouldn't go in depth and knowing this is islecord I think he is genuine

[carmine patrol]

Is the community this dumb

[primal harbor]

yes

a couple years ago someone unironically said "birds aren't dinosaurs, that is like saying a shark is a fish"

so yes, it is worse than you think

[carmine patrol]

Bruh, why do we have 7 year olds in the community 😒

Or adults with the mind of a 7yo

[primal harbor]

it is both

because you know there is someone out there that thinks it would be perfectly fine to put Trex in the game rn

[hasty geode]

''put trex in, it is my fav dino, i want to play it''

[carmine patrol]

More people than I want to imagine

[frail bobcat]

Their reason is "to fix stego" lol

[hasty geode]

You see, Rex is the anwser to everything

[primal harbor]

the issue I realized is if there is something that will kill stego then those people will go to that dino

[frail bobcat]

*answer

[primal harbor]

the main reason people play stego at this point is because it is the strongest

[frail bobcat]

Allo is the answer to the problem

[primal harbor]

I use to think that but if the game is at a point rn where strgo is an issue stego will be just as much of an issue way later on

because if you just make things outright better than others, people will just go to that

so all the stego players will just go to allo then

then how do you balance allo

[carmine patrol]

Some dude was saying that allo should be 46-50 kp/h

[frail bobcat]

A allo will be fucked up by a couple stegos

[hasty geode]

[primal harbor]

WHAT THE FU-

[frail bobcat]

Yeah lol, petes discord

[primal harbor]

that is-

wtf

[primal harbor]

then it ends up still being a problem because the issue about stego rn are the packs of them that is able to kill anything in the game

[carmine patrol]

Yes, because it's "realistic"

[primal harbor]

dude speed calcs for allo are like........ not anywhere close to that

[frail bobcat]

Everybody kept telling him that it would screw over balance and he made excuses like: "the utahs gotta juke, the pachy gotta legbreak"

[hasty geode]

https://tenor.com/view/the-allosaurus-allo-allosaurus-the-grappling-animal-the-killer-gif-25072310

[carmine patrol]

"Teno can swim away"

[primal harbor]

yeah becuase those are fricking tiny

[frail bobcat]

Yeah

[primal harbor]

also that is not possible, allo is big enough where if it fell like that it would break all of its ribs

[hasty geode]

Me when people want their favourite dinosaur to be the strongest thing in the entire game

[hasty geode]

Ye

[frail bobcat]

It was kinda obvious that its his favorite

[hasty geode]

I've seen so many players that want a certain dinosaur to be the strongest playable

[frail bobcat]

Saw a dude that wanted buck to be removed lol

@primal harbor I thought about a 2.5 headhit multiplier

[primal harbor]

see that I like a lot

[frail bobcat]

That would make them think about annoying deinos if they are 5 shot on the head

You could edit it in

[frail bobcat]

And state that its temporary

[primal harbor]

I say don't make it temporary, cuz back to this

[frail bobcat]

When allo is in, they could make it 2x again

[primal harbor]

yes but once again, if allo is just better than stego those stego players will just go to allo

[frail bobcat]

Allo is weaker than stego and can be yoinked by deino

[primal harbor]

it needs some type of permanent nerf

[frail bobcat]

Nah

Its an apex

The glass cannon apex to be excact

[primal harbor]

but it isn't glass

it's just a cannon

[frail bobcat]

For apex tier, yes

Every herbie apex is 8 tons plus

[primal harbor]

if you keep the 2.5x headshot multiplier on it than it would become a little bit more of the glass cannon

[frail bobcat]

Except stego

[primal harbor]

hm you are right

[frail bobcat]

It is not needed to keep it once allo is in

[primal harbor]

why? cuz even then allo is not an apex

[frail bobcat]

It can hunt stegos better than everything else in our roster

[primal harbor]

idk because I think the 2.5x head damage will make it so there is more of a clear winner because stego would be able to do a crap ton of damage but even when it comes to apex's they should do a crap ton to stego, it may be a glass cannon but it is not enough of a glass cannon personally

before anything I think most apex's should be capable to almost 1 shot stego but stego is capable of 1 shotting them

[azure crescent]

i don't think any non sauropod dino should be able to near 1 shot stego

stego isn't supposed to be a glass canon

it's supposed to be the opposite, a walking fortress

[dusky surge]

i mean it is described as the "glass cannon" of apexes

[azure crescent]

it's still tanky as hell though

[slim dragon]

It's an apex-tier glass cannon

So it seems tanky when confronted to things that are not apexes

[azure crescent]

yes

[small herald]

how come the growths are so bad right now? you guys want there to be less afk growing but a 50% teno is 200kg
how am I supposed to not sit in a bush and grow if i know leaving a bush will get me killed by anything?

[frail bobcat]

@alpine plover the ai spawns do not need to be fixed lol

[carmine patrol]

The problem Is that ai spawn invisible

[frail bobcat]

They need to make sound

[ocean sentinel]

I do think the game could benefit from increased NPC spawns

I get starvation should be a threat, but I don't think making boars borderline cryptids is a good way to do this.

[alpine plover]

ai spawns work great, for the first hour after a server restart

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah, I notice there's plenty before the server gets active for the day, but after that they seem to just stop spawning.

[sharp delta]

@verbal nacelle you do realize that this thing jn the future will have to deal with things like rexes and gigas right???

[tranquil pawn]

yeah, rexes and gigas that ain't here lol

[dusky surge]

@fading axle hypsi is confirmed to climb

[hasty coyote]

Sadly we have to wait for Herrera first tho

[frail bobcat]

Utah gonna get its climb then too

[carmine patrol]

Utah climb?

You mean the thing shown in the concept?

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[hasty coyote]

It has been said to likely get a “scramble” up ledges. So it may be part of climbing.

[frail bobcat]

I asked filipe and he said its possible that they will do it with the herra

[azure crescent]

@slender kettle agree for all of those except ptera's

it doesn't even have talons, just puny little feet

[slender kettle]

It’s not a glass cannon right now, it’s all health and damage. It would be a glass cannon if it was at it’s legacy weight.

[frail bobcat]

It is one for a apex

[azure crescent]

@lunar thunder the growth % aren't supposed to represent weight

[ocean sentinel]

It doesn't have to, but right now a lot of the roster is pretty useless until they are almost completely grown

[analog mirage]

@pallid acorn if you remove the ability to sprint it becomes legacy bone break where you can’t do anything and it becomes a death sentence

[pallid acorn]

Hmm you got a point

[analog mirage]

And the point is to allow more of a chance of escape even though you are in a bad spot. You get the potential to get away, but because you are still slow you still have a harder time

As to let’s take Carno for example: it can limp away but since it drains the same amount of stamina it usually doesn’t have enough to get away

[primal harbor]

@fading axle they are going to give hypsi tree climbing eventually, they just have to make the mechanic first

and since herrera is gonna have tree climbing out the gate I am guessing when herra comes out is when that will happen

[twilit juniper]

@sudden orbit, we didn’t get any alterations or patches though.. 2 devs even came out to say that there will be no notes cause it’s just NV

[primal harbor]

@hardy dirge why would the tail slam do more damage than the kick?

the tail slam already has a stun and it is harder to hit with the kick than with the tailslam

before anything I think the tail slam should do almost no damage because the tail slam can almost guarantee you a hit

[hardy dirge]

Because the kick does a stun as well, and it costs less stamina in general. I'm not saying it needs to do terribly much more damage, it just makes the tail attack feel kinda useless.

[primal harbor]

the tail does a lot more stun

[hardy dirge]

Both have a duration of 2 seconds.

Do they not? All stun times were decreased.

[primal harbor]

seriously? huh

I always saw that the tail is what you stun with and the kick does the damage

[hardy dirge]

At least that's what was said in the previous update.

[primal harbor]

and the alt does the bleed

[hardy dirge]

They both do stun, and it seems that all stuns have the same duraton.

Kick does bleed, quite a bit actually.

[primal harbor]

overall I think teno is just fine how it is, it is already a swiss army knife where it can do stun, a lot and damage AND bleed when a lot of things usually only have 1

[hardy dirge]

For it to do good bleed and significantly more damage is why the tail attack seems less useful.

Yeah it certainly has a lot of abilities at it's disposal, it just doesn't seem that they are all utilized as good as they could be.

[primal harbor]

the tail attacks has much better range and the kick is harder to land, I honestly think the kick should have more charge up so it is harder to hit with

[hardy dirge]

And frankly, it looks a bit more dumb to see them slam a carno, then run up to it, turn and start kicking, but that might just be me.

[primal harbor]

?

yeah cuz the tail stuns and the kick does the damage

[hardy dirge]

Yeah, when before you could just continue to use the tail. Just seemed more useful to do that than waste a precious second getting closer to kick.

[primal harbor]

yeah and it was op

no one wants to get stunlocked

[hardy dirge]

I do like that it does good bleed, I just don't know if it directly needs to do more damage.

I mean nobody wants to be rammed and stunlocked by Carnos and Pachys either, lol.

Granted it's very satisfying with Pachy.

[primal harbor]

with Carno's and pachy it actually takes skill to use

and it doesnt stunlock you

it just stuns you

[hardy dirge]

I mean also note at the time, the slam did cost a lot more stamina. I guess doing less damage for more stamina does make it feel more worth while.

[primal harbor]

once, with teno it just stunlocked you

how teno is rn is fine, personally it would get a buff before a nerf but I think it is fine

[hardy dirge]

This might sound a bit dumb, but what exactly is the difference? I feel like I'm stuck in a spot for the same duration whether it's a carno charging me or a teno trying to cave my face in.

[primal harbor]

well yeah both of them is a stun

but none of them stunlock you until you die

[hardy dirge]

So why was it a huge issue with Teno?

[primal harbor]

BECAUSE IT STUNLOCKED

[hardy dirge]

You just stated this.

[primal harbor]

yeah pachy and carno do not stunlock

[hardy dirge]

I mean prior to update 3.5, yes, I see how it was an issue, but since then it felt like surviving a slam was a lot easier.

Brb need water

[primal harbor]

and teno did stunlock stuff and they made it now so it is a normal stun like the others

[hardy dirge]

That's better then.

Sorry, took me a minute to find water.

Idk, I guess it's just me and whoever else I heard say the same thing. A matter of "Why do this attack when this one is much better?" aside from being harder to hit because range.

[primal harbor]

being harder to hit and range is the main thing

more variety

how else would you do it, have 2 attacks look exactly the same and do 2 different effects

that is what the devs are trying not to do

[hardy dirge]

Fair.

But at the same time, biting for herbivores exist and that's almost entirely useless unless it's something smaller than an adult Utah, or it's your only attack. (Dryo)

[primal harbor]

like I said teno is as close you can get to a swiss army knife as you can get

well kangaroos have a variety they can use and they still bite

pretty much any animal would bite if they can

[hardy dirge]

Hopefully we see other dinos get that kind of feature. Maia and Para should also be swiss army knives respectively, minus bleed.

Ok, but kangaroos are a menace. Prove me wrong.

[primal harbor]

personally I am not a fan because if 1 dino can do everything what is the point of doing the other its size that can only do 1 thing

[hardy dirge]

Well every animal supposedly will have it's own quirks, and for ornthopods it really couldn't be much more than various means of defensive attacks, because they lack horns, armor and spikes. But alternatively, their health might just be their saving grace instead, considering they are fairly large dinosaurs. But the devs were thinking about different attacks for Para and Maia due to their ability to switch from Biped to Quadrupedal.

So that might just happen anyways.

[azure crescent]

manatees:

[primal harbor]

Ok listen here pal

[azure crescent]

[cursive flare]

@still lantern Either the carno was a big juvi or it was a skill issue

Carno doesn't need a nerf. Its been nerfed

[still lantern]

I was just confused by the size, honestly, seeming as I was so much bigger than it.
I will never rule out the possibility of me being a complete and utter noob, so I appreciate the feedback.

[hasty coyote]

A: the growth is a bit funky, so size =/= strength
B: Carno has a higher biteforce proportionally to its weight, so if it was equal weight then you still would have less damage (about 1:10 compared to about 1:16)
C: how were you fighting? did he face tank you, tail ride, hit and run, or did you just not know how to alt attack?

[still lantern]

Kept running at me headlong.

[hasty coyote]

may also be the fact of height difference. You may have been hitting his legs while they were hitting your body

[still lantern]

That's fair.

[hasty coyote]

other than that, I would have had to see the fight to explain it.

[alpine plover]

Why does when someone posts something about buffing stego it gets a ton of downvotes (witch is deserved) but when someone posts about nerfing stego it also gets a ton of downvotes like what

[dusky surge]

Not wanting something buffed does not mean you want it nerfed

[alpine plover]

But stego is still Broken so I don’t see why people don’t want it nerfed

[dusky surge]

Because nerfing it is a risky business

You do that and you end up with land deinos again

[hasty coyote]

If you buff stego, it becomes too strong. If you nerf stego, then it becomes too weak to defend itself from deino and utah. Both of which should generally just not engage stego

[golden coral]

It's not really broken though. It's just about as "invincible" as deino is. Both of them also don't really fit the roster, and hopefully in the future will be hunted by things properly designed for it.

[dusky surge]

Utah packs also can currently kill stego

[neon willow]

It's broken, but the reason it's broken is the roster isn't designed for it. The fix isn't changing the stats but rather adding dinos to the roster that are designed to handle stegos

[hasty coyote]

The issue with adding the dinos that can fight stego is that those have nothing to eat. We need mid tiers to sustain the larger dinos, and we need small tiers to sustain the mid tiers.

[half girder]

utahs can kill a stego, but its a matter of the stegos skill or rng

[slim dragon]

@strange rivet Chance based=bad

[strange rivet]

Elaborate? What i was suggesting isn't just flat random chance, i proposed other factors already, like weight and stamina. It can have a threshold and a curve, it is better than nothing. You can even add button mashing or quick time events in the equation if you want.

I find it weird that the only thing the grabbed one can do is drain the attacker stamina with 0 chance to wrestle out. Especially when two are of equal sizes and one is pinned to the ground.

[azure hinge]

@analog mirage tbh bucking is exhausting probably at any weight, but yes for the same if balance i agree

Don't like suicide baby raptor bombs

I think a better fix is just don't let babies of a certain size pounce

Or make it so only until 70% growth than can only pounce on small prey, but then over 70 they can pounce everything

Don't take the numbers i said seriously it's an example

Those are changeable

[analog mirage]

That’s a bad idea because it disables the ability to let them pounce to get food

Just make it consume less and less stamina the smaller the Utah

So if you are a Carno and one pounces you, don’t even waste stamina, or so little stamina it makes no difference

[azure hinge]

I said things of certain sizes can still be pounced

Just let it be more size dependent

Small can pounce small

[spark pond]

and similarly when 2 adult utahs pounces anything at once the bucking should cost more stamina than when 1 Utah pounced, more stamina cost for bucking when more utahs are pouncing at once

[frail bobcat]

Then doublepounces would actually be worth it

[dim lantern]

Re: @tropic granite's Post about herbi's having more diets in forest evrinment

Teno/Stego can just back up against tree's and rocks and create chokes for their attacks
Carnos would get stuck in the trees, Utah's would get tree knocked every pounce

Forcing them to come out to the plains for atleast 1 diet item is needed otherwise carnivores would have a real hard time getting triple diet, and its already hard in alot of scenarios

Went 2 hours earlier camping center and only saw 1 baby teno getting his radish, unless i want to play marco polo in bushes by the mountain ash, i'm not getting my triple diet, and that's without giving them more options

[tropic granite]

That is the point, food shouldn't be easy. plus I said some herbis, not all. Animals like teno and stego should obviously stick to open areas, that is what they are designed for.

I was talking about generally smaller/mid sized animals. Carnos shouldn't be navigating dense forests anyways, it just doesn't work well for them. Of course carnos diet should be adjusted anyways, it starves waaay to fast.

But the point is to add some diversity to the map instead of people all hanging out in ine area. Some animals are not meant for life out in the open

And yea. I didn't say they should stay in the forests. I included that they should have to move out into the open eventually

[dim lantern]

Oh sorry, i thought you were posting in balance-feedback about balance changes to dinosaurs actually in the game
unless you mean the redundant dryo or the pachy who's coconuts/oranges are already in northern forest and has to roam out 60s to get agave

[tropic granite]

Oh yea, no no. I was suggesting that some of their food options need to be put into forests to encourage movement, rather than every animal literally huddled into the same spot all day every day.

It's actually probably on me lol, prolly shoulda dropped this in general feedback rather than balance feedback

As of now, forests are basically empty pointless uses of space. Nobody really utilizes them because their diet forces them to stay out in the open for the majority of their needs. This leads to predators also swarming the same area. Which can cause performance issues and is -in my opinion- just no fun lol

[alpine plover]

For the love of god fix the bleed rate on Carnos from a Utah. It's utterly insane and game ruining with the Carnos already low stamina.

Just going to leave that here.

[tropic granite]

Carno is legit a glass cannon atm it also needs to eat way too much

[alpine plover]

Yes, f*ck me man. I cannot sit down. I constantly have to roam. I don't have time to ambush prey or to think about hunting because it's a constant state of hunting. I say a good 15% decrease in metabolism would be nice.

On top of this, Carno is nice if you actually get to Ambush something, but you usually don't have time if you want to stay on top of your food.

[tropic granite]

Fr, carno has to live like a psychopathic murderer in its current state. Not like an actual predator

[alpine plover]

Right, i constantly have to kill kill and not pick out prey or ambush an area. Definitely need to work on it because I mean it's just constant. Utah bleed rate is too dramatic on Carno, too.

[tropic granite]

And cannibalism doesn't do much to help. That body will either be gone in like 30 minutes or a pack of utahs will smell it and basically bully you off of it (if another carno doesn't decide to get the same idea)

[alpine plover]

Exactly, Carnos have no time to think. It's always hunger hunger hunger. Glad someone else feels this way too, because it's a little much. The AI actually spawning has helped some, though, but it's not enough.

[tropic granite]

Nesting is near impossible for carno as well. Basically a death sentence for both parents and their kids

[tropic granite]

Yea

If I'm playing a predator, I don't want my mindset to be "kill whatever moves, because if I don't i will starve" I want to actually be able to plan my hunts and choose my prey

[alpine plover]

Yup. Carno is just not balanced. It's very lopsided. I feel allowing us time to ambush would help negate some of the negatives, and reducing the bleed rate by 20% or so from Utah would help without being crazy.

[tropic granite]

Yea. Generally speaking, a pack of utahs vs a single carno should still have a decent success rate...but that carno getting pounced (with how magnetic it already is) shouldn't be an automatic death sentence

[alpine plover]

I don't want to say very lopsided, but there's balance issues there.

[analog mirage]

All Carno needs is the blood lose nerfs reverted and it’s fine