general-feedback-discussion

[barren crater]

Dear lord

[limber hull]

dude

[barren zephyr]

What

BRO

[barren crater]

Why

[limber hull]

you dont need to SAY IT

holy shit lmao

[barren zephyr]

MI needed to know

[calm granite]

i’m telling mr dondi on u

[barren zephyr]

For a science project

Delete

[barren zephyr]

oh word?

[barren crater]

Just delete it, although the mods will be able to see it smh

[barren zephyr]

Ok I guess that isn't the word

[barren crater]

Bruh

Anyways

[calm granite]

can’t wait for cera, all the mega packs deleting every other dino

hopefully more stegos then other dinos

[barren crater]

While cera mega packs would still be very annoying, they won’t be as bad as Carno mega packs. You’d at most be able to catch a pachy

[barren zephyr]

What?

[limber hull]

a cera would get tapped in the head by a stego and die lmao

[calm granite]

wait what

it can’t grab its tail?!

[limber hull]

wh- why would it be able to do that

[barren crater]

May even die to a body shot

[limber hull]

holy shit it might if small enough lmao

[urban flax]

Stego's tail jab is 1200 damage right ?
Watch cerato have 1201 hp

[barren zephyr]

No, stego is not strong enough

[limber hull]

how would you know lmao

[barren crater]

I mean, if cerato is realistic sized, it will be a one shot

[limber hull]

cera might be 1.1tons

if realistic sized

[barren zephyr]

I know, i had that in mind

[limber hull]

also what's the problem with a cera dying to a stego, it absolutely should

[barren zephyr]

One hit to a carno is a little over half of its health, so if cera 1.1, stego is still not able to one shot it to the body

[limber hull]

it can

because one shot to the carno's head as a stego is an instant kill

[barren crater]

Think they were referring to that one WIP cera bite attack on a stego- which is a sort of hold. Doesn’t mean it would stop the stego from swinging though

[limber hull]

carno has 1800HP

[barren zephyr]

No, is math, stego does the sam damage to all

[limber hull]

headshot multiplier on carno is 1.5x

math-speaking, stego does at LEAST 1200 damage

[barren crater]

Stego deals 1200n damage to straight body

[barren zephyr]

And cerato 1.100, and I'm telling you a hit to a carno leaves a it with like 40 hp

[limber hull]

and i'm telling you that i've told you real stats and it would one-tap cera

given that the cera is 1.1tons

[barren zephyr]

Only to the head

[limber hull]

to the body also

[barren crater]

Bruh

[limber hull]

1200 > 1100

[barren zephyr]

That's not true

[barren crater]

Lol

[barren zephyr]

It leaves carno with 800 hp

You are lying

[barren crater]

No it doesn’t

[barren zephyr]

It that less then

[limber hull]

how would you know it was 800HP lmaooo

you are running on pure speculation

im running on visual fact

stego spikes + carno head = dead carno

[barren zephyr]

I said like, is an stimate from what I see, I can't know because you cant se a % of the health

[limber hull]

i'm not counting anything less than a 100% stego

you made an estimate, i'm running on a non-estimate

I KNOW for a fact that stego deals at least 1200 damage

Because you can see it

By landing a headshot on a carno

And simple maths

[barren zephyr]

And how you know that to the head stego does exactly thr damage it needs to one shot a carno but not more?

[limber hull]

A: I was QA
B: I've tested on a private server
C: I've done it in officials

[urban flax]

It just makes me think
There was that one guy once who wanted utah to survive a stego jab
That would need utah to be larger than cerato

[barren crater]

1800/1.5 = 1200

[barren zephyr]

I just figured it out, nvm

[limber hull]

shut up shut up that cant be possible

[barren zephyr]

But still, we don't know if cera is 1.1, in the teaser looks like 1.4 to me, and I know, everything is subject to change

[barren crater]

How does it look 1.4T

[urban flax]

Wasn't the growing cera in the teaser a bug ?

I think a dev mentioned it

[calm granite]

how much will cera weigh?

[barren zephyr]

I mean when it isn't growing

[calm granite]

i’m guessing prob 1400

[barren zephyr]

We don't know

[barren crater]

Realistically, 1.1T. Devs may or may not upsize it

[barren zephyr]

Even if we knew it could change

[barren crater]

yeah

[urban flax]

Also you guys shouldn't base something's weight around it's visual size on a single video
Remember dryo is almost as tall as Utah yet weighs 1/4 of Utah's weight

[barren zephyr]

But it would be dirty making it one shot to a stego

[calm granite]

that’s not actual utah

[barren crater]

I mean, the carno the cera was next to wasn't even full grown and it was still larger (although carno is tall)

[barren zephyr]

No, real utah is 500kg, the one in game should weight way less

[barren crater]

I think it wasn't full grown, looked smaller than the carnos in the back anyway

regardless, cera will probs be annoying for carnos

[barren zephyr]

All carnos were same size and looked 100%, comparing with the stego

[barren crater]

It doesn't need to be 'stronger' to deter a carno

[calm granite]

wym utah is way bigger than that

so it’d be around 1000

[barren zephyr]

The max estimate is 1T, but the min is 300kg

[calm granite]

but the devs did say that actual utah would be coming so

[urban flax]

1T Utah is very far-fetched
It's usually more between 500 and 700 kg

[barren zephyr]

Yes, but is the one we actually have the one I told you should be less

[urban flax]

With 500 kg still being more likely

According to its proportions Isle Utah should weigh around 200/250 kg

[barren zephyr]

If we could see how big cera is compared to a teno it would be easier to guess a weight

[calm granite]

honestly i’d like it to be like jarassic velo

[barren zephyr]

It is

[calm granite]

like the name etc.

instead of the ai

shrink it a bit more and boom velo ez

hatch utah is pretty insane, kept a carno bleeding until my utah fren healed lmao

you’ll prob see it on youtube

[barren crater]

The bleed value is pretty bad, but it does keep it bleeding so I guess it's worth it

[calm granite]

took like 30 mins but we killed it

[barren crater]

30 min? was this like 2 utahs

[calm granite]

1 adult utah 2 hatches

we were basically suicide pouncing for the bleed to stay on, died like 3 times

[barren crater]

lol, sounds like a bad way to go out

[calm granite]

if we were 2 adults the hunt wouldn’t have passed 5 mins lol

yeah

[icy lion]

@somber fiber All of that already exists in evrima

[somber fiber]

whats that

[icy lion]

It's the beta branch for the remake of the Isle, it's currently in development

[somber fiber]

oo- how can i get access to it?

[icy lion]

Right click the Isle in your Steam library, click Properties, click Betas, then select evrima from the drop-down menu. It'll start a download for the new version, which'll be fairly big

You can always change back to the default version by following the same instructions but choosing "none" as a beta branch

You won't lose your dinos when you switch, since those are saved on the server

I will warn you that evrima is pretty buggy right now and is much harder on computers to run

[somber fiber]

o okok, ty!!

[icy lion]

Have fun, and if you have any issues be sure to visit #🔧-evrima-troubleshooting-🔧 so we can help!

[somber fiber]

got it

[covert pagoda]

@rough falcon Dinosaurs aren't reptiles and were in fact warm blooded, so that sunbathing suggestion makes no sense.

[proud coral]

@covert pagoda Defecation is actually planned. 😛 Not for a long while, but planned. How exactly it will work, we don't know outside of tracking and debuffs (like dysentery)

[covert pagoda]

Well, sure thanks for informing me 😋 It came to mind when they reduced the visibility of footprints, so I thought we definitely need something else to track other people now.

[proud coral]

👍

[hoary dawn]

devs sure do love their shit and poop and feces and doo doo

[tight oxide]

stahp bullying Utah in concept arts :(

we get it... everything can fight back against pounce

[burnt bone]

they arent fighting against its pounce, they are just killing it after the pounce "bugs"

[tight oxide]

the sad truth

[lost marsh]

@dusty depot they already implemented the mechanic to see all growth stages on skin system.

[dusty depot]

Ah okay, wasnt sure so I thought I should put it down
Ty for telling me @lost marsh

[lost marsh]

it's okay ❤️

[barren zephyr]

would like to see the devs make a simple map and make a sandbox mode to test things and practice combat.

[pure quiver]

Yes!

[barren zephyr]

cant be that hard to make. just a map with no textures and a spawn. just like legacy

[pure quiver]

Absolutely

Then again I havent made games before

[rough falcon]

yes i was already corrected, thank you. I was not aware that dinos could regulate their own temps when i made the suggestion 😅

[zealous violet]

Not all of us are into scat play my dude.

[limber hull]

well that's quite an extreme to come to

i'm fine with defecation in an animal survival game, but i think that scat is fucking repulsive

ARK had human shit in its game and that's fine

But the Isle having its animals take shits? Repulsive and reprehensible

[zealous violet]

I wouldnt mind finding piles randomly to help aid in hunting, but I dont wanna see it fall out of a dino.

Ark can get away with it cuz its graphics are kinda trash and its got neon dinosaurs and its all around silly if you think about it. The Isle I think is supposed to have a more 'serious' tone to is. I dunno.

[limber hull]

i mean, i kind of mildly like the idea for the fact that it makes it more natural, and honestly, finding a massive pile of shit implies activity from larger animals, like in JP

i get its gross, but i'd be lying to say i didnt think it could legitimately be a meaningful and interesting part of the game regardless

if done well

[quasi kindle]

@steel vector carno gets clapped in the concept art so i dont know what u mean

[hoary dawn]

next you're gonna tell me AE recreating dinosaurs and slapping them on an island together isn't scientifically accurate

[calm granite]

lol

[limber hull]

i like how people assume "smaller than carno" = "carno food"

like the animal has 0 way of defending itself if its smaller than carno

[deft moth]

and a anky would be smaller then a carno but would smack the carno so hard it would look like a smashed papaya

[limber hull]

i dont think an anky would be smaller than a carno lmao

like that's a rather large extreme

[stark dust]

Lmao mods deleted my feedback because they couldn’t take it

[karmic sequoia]

@limber hull Why?

I'd love to hear your reasoning

[limber hull]

dont see the need to remove it from troo, and i think it's an interesting mechanic for troo to have personally. Without it, I'd honestly say troo would just be a less interesting dilo

[karmic sequoia]

I'd argue that the swarm playstyle and different venom work
Also, what does Ovi have?

[limber hull]

but dilo has more interesting venom and is the "bigger animal"

[karmic sequoia]

So? Dibble is a tiny trike

Does that mean that they play the same?

Troodon is gonna be a speedy, small thang

It has mobility and stealth on its side

Dilo has size/hp and hallucinatory drugs

That's my reasoning anyway :D

[limber hull]

i still feel the mimicry adds a good deal to the kit, and I dislike the idea of it being removed, especially after being outright advertised as a mimic

Dilo will likely also be small and speedy in comparison to the rest of the roster, it's not near the largest animal

So Troodon honestly would have very little to offer

[karmic sequoia]

IG, but I don't think it massively adds to troodon's playstyle

Doesn't seem especially helpful for a small swarm creature

[limber hull]

I mean, it seems pretty useful for me. Lure something in with a call and then swarm it while it's alone

[karmic sequoia]

Dunno if that would work in game - players aren't dumb

Well, they aren't THAT dumb USUALLY lol

[limber hull]

i have seen players literally book it to the sound of dryos or hypsis

[karmic sequoia]

Fair enough

Still think it's better for ovi

It doesn't really have anything going for it

[limber hull]

and considering troodon will likely get melted in the open, it'd want to lure players to secluded areas where it can use forests and the like to its advantage

[karmic sequoia]

It's nocturnal though - we don't have night vision yet

That should be a decent advantage over whatever it's hunting

Also, imagine if Ovi could mimic preadator noises to scare parents away from their nests

Ig we gotta agree to disagree :)

Thx for humoring me

I'm gonna repost it like this tomorrow:

Dev team, PLEASE consider dropping the mimic ability for troodon and transferring it to oviraptor.

This would mean oviraptor gets a unique mechanic that fits its parrotlike appearance/personality and could actually be useful for stealing eggs and harassing parent dinos by luring/scaring them away from their nests.

Troodon is already distinct enough from dilo in terms of venom mechanics and raw stats that its playstyle will automatically feel different and ovi really doesn't seem to have anything unique going for it at the moment that would make it stand apart from galli.

It's really more for ovi than troodon

[wide kelp]

you probably don't want to micromanage their schedule for them. Saying something takes less work and thus could be sooner is in the weeds and you might not know what goes into it.

just a suggestion

[karmic sequoia]

Thx!

[mellow sphinx]

how could it be harder not to add a mechanic for the dinosaur? lol

[wide kelp]

I'm not suggesting it is, just that unless you are involved in the workflow, you really wouldn't know so best not to get into it. no?

[mellow sphinx]

Sure I suppose

[karmic sequoia]

How about this "It also might mean that troodon could be released sooner if the team hasn't invested much time into implementing the mechanic for it"

[wide kelp]

If it were me just state your suggestion, don't even mention it. "I suggest the troodon "mimic" ability should shift to Oviraptor so it can be more unique as Troodon already has a unique ability and playstyle."

[karmic sequoia]

I might just copy that XD

[limber hull]

i mean, the issue is they can't do that regardless

because they literally advertised troodon as a mimic

[wide kelp]

I agree the Oviraptor needs an ace up it's sleeve, if they expect you to hover around nests full of things bigger than you and steal eggs somehow.

Not sure the mimic is it but yeah

[karmic sequoia]

It's the best I can come up with

[limber hull]

honestly if i were to give ovi a gimmick, i'd make it just insane at getting any and everywhere to get eggs

just an utter pest

[karmic sequoia]

Otherwise...

[wide kelp]

well in it's current iteration nests are seldom if ever left until they hatch. In a pack there's always one sitting on nest and others go hunt food. Just makes sense. So you'd have to have some reason for mom & dad to walk away.

[karmic sequoia]

huh the ovi kicking a troodon image is getting blocked
I just wanted to show how small it is

"explicit"

[wide kelp]

They'd have to make it so your can't nest near water, up dehydration while on the nest....make the mom/dad go drink more?

Of course, nothing stopping players from tag teaming the nest sitting still

[karmic sequoia]

yea

I love the design and I really want to see it done justice

[wide kelp]

maybe it's an AOE dehydration, would cause the adults to leave periodically and give ovi a chance to do it's thing

[karmic sequoia]

Nest repairs and stuff too

[wide kelp]

ah yeah that's a good one

[karmic sequoia]

Pretty sure temperature control was confirmed by adding/removing materials

[wide kelp]

like it degrades over time

that's good news, I mean compared to Deinosuchus and Suchmimus, Spino is disadvantaged in water due to the sail, he would need a mechanic to make it usefule

[karmic sequoia]

Kind of hard to be stealthy as a spino

At least out in the open

[wide kelp]

he was also supposed to be a fish eater primarily

just hung out in swamps and possibly beaches

[karmic sequoia]

ye, I honestly wouldn't mind that playstyle

It doesn't seem like a sauropod or apex herbi hunter

[wide kelp]

well I'll admit if thats all they had him doing it'd be super boring

[karmic sequoia]

True true

Gotta have more to it

[limber hull]

spino shouldn't be a great hunter. It should be an insane brawler that controls fishing spots and territories and will fucking destroy anyone who gets too close to its space

[karmic sequoia]

I like this

[limber hull]

hyper-territorial giant tank beast

[wide kelp]

they could make it the Deinosuchus hunter, give them something to worry about

[limber hull]

I dislike this concept, personally

[karmic sequoia]

How about young deinos?

[limber hull]

Well, yes, but suchos, barys and all kinds of aquatic predators will be doing that too

It won't be like anything to write home about

[karmic sequoia]

Should definitely be able to take them in a fight but deinos should have mobility in the water to run away

Barry seems to have a counter to deino's lunge but it's lunch if it tries to fight

[wide kelp]

right, Deino is more suited for water, Spino is more shallows dweller

[karmic sequoia]

"wading apex"

Still a good swimmer but not as fast

Diving too?

[mellow sphinx]

I remember people wanting spino to be like a hippo in the ocean diving and stuff

[karmic sequoia]

King of the coasts and marshes

Mangrove moster

[wide kelp]

well supposedly it had the long jaws like modern day cranes, it just stuck it's mouth into the water and grabbed fish that way. It's jaws are not ideal for big game.

[limber hull]

Deinos are meant to be ambush-based predators that attack smaller animals for meals, relying heavily on stealth and patience. Spinos, ideally, will be large tanky brawler animals with a hyper-territorial and competitive behaviour for control of fishing areas. Deino has no interest attacking a spino and a spino should not be trying to actively seek out deinos. Both are apexes and it is within the best interest of both to simply avoid the other.

Spino scares away deino food and is impossible for a deino to kill using its most effective methods, deino would likely have far superior water mobility, both contradict the other and thus shouldn't really be interacting much.

[karmic sequoia]

yeah

Good summary

[limber hull]

I disagree, spino is suited just as well for depths, spino irl was confirmed to be a competent and capable swimmers. The difference here is that spino simply does not at all compliment deino, so the two animals should naturally want to avoid each other, as spino will simply waste energy trying to kill a deino and vice versa.

[wide kelp]

precisely why they'd need to have their own tailored hunting grounds, otherwise Spino would really piss on the Deinos

[limber hull]

Deinos should easily be capable of out-swimming the spino, as well as dealing decent hefty damage with bites. A deino should have a biteforce far greater than that of a spino

[karmic sequoia]

Spino as a slower* swimmer with chargeable bursts for catching fish?

[mellow sphinx]

isle spino is nothing like real life spino it shouldnt be near as capable a swimmer as Deino

[karmic sequoia]

We don't really know what the isle spino is like in evrima

Could be very different

[mellow sphinx]

We've seen the model and it lacks most of the adaptations that made real life Spino such a capable creature in the water

[karmic sequoia]

Models can change if the devs decide it doesn't work

It looks hella sick tho

Is that a thing people say?

[limber hull]

I'd give spino

• Poor stam
• High health and bloodpool (to compliment high weight)
• Water sense like the deino (spinosaurids were believed to have similar sensory organs)
• Mediocre speed in and out of water (better than deino on land and a rex in water, but not exactly fast in either)
• Poor bite force, but decent damage with other attacks utilising claws
• Good turn radius

[mellow sphinx]

Doubt they'll change it, theres nothing wrong with Deino being better in the water than Spino and Spino being better in shallows and such

[limber hull]

Spino was never said to be a shallow wader tho

As far as I know

[mellow sphinx]

These actually all look good

[karmic sequoia]

They do

[limber hull]

Cherius is a wader, sucho is a wader, spino was never really said to be a wader

[karmic sequoia]

Cherri is also an herbivore (omnivore whatever)

[mellow sphinx]

It doesn't necessarily have to be a wader, but I just think Deino should be the master of the water. Perhaps if Spino is like a hippo it could have good agility while on the water/ocean floor and good bursts of speed down there

When I say master I don't mean it should win all fights while swimming by the way, just mean fastest and most agile of swimming apexes

[limber hull]

Deino should absolutely be the most water capable animal

[wide kelp]

well rn, you have two apex amphibious hunters that will vie for the same prey that will populate the same waterways. There is bound to be issues unless you give them some reason to segregate other than fighting amongst each other. And let's be honest, if Deino can easily hurt/kills Spinos it will and Spino will be tough to play without being an equally capabile/adaptable land apex

[karmic sequoia]

no disagrees here (except penguin)

[limber hull]

Unless beipi suffers as much on land as deino does, idk

[karmic sequoia]

It's a tiny herbi/omni

[limber hull]

Deino is literally a giant fucking gator, it's the closest we have to a pure aquatic

[wide kelp]

agreed

[karmic sequoia]

yeah I hear you

[wide kelp]

we have an apex for the waterways, so where does Spino fit in?

[karmic sequoia]

Apex toughness but mid-tier diet

[ashen elm]

@steel vector , those sources are not reliable
The first is a young children's parent blog which... is far from reliable
The second link is from Diabloceratops original description, which is nice, but is also out of date
The last source is a book from 2017 but has poor retrosaur designs, so it's hard to take anything in it seriously

[karmic sequoia]

Hopefully fish AI would be improved and expanded with the waterways updates (bigger fish)

[limber hull]

Spino is also an apex of the waterways, but whereas deino tries to hide itself, spino makes its presence known. I'd honestly, if we get more large lakes or clearer waters, put spino near clear waters or lakes separated from the core water system. Spino can therefor see fish clearer, make its presence more known and have a very valuable territory to try and control/fight over.

The clearwater lakes may be safer from deinos, but you'll come in contact with a very pissed off giant if you overstay your welcome.

[karmic sequoia]

How about mangrove/swamps for spino instead

[limber hull]

Swamps seem far more deino's alley

[karmic sequoia]

Deino can't really hunt in them effectively though

[limber hull]

Murky depths perfectly compliment the lifestyle of an aquatic ambush predator

[mellow sphinx]

Yep

[wide kelp]

I mean you've got Deino, stealthy as all get-out, aquatic power-house, lunge for sneak kills, it's only threat is other Deinos or being caught on land....in contrast you have a spino, You'll see it from a mile away wading in the river, you'll see it on land, it's not going to sneak attack for sure.

[karmic sequoia]

Riverbanks are easier for ambushes in the current game is all I'm saying
Ever try to hunt as a deino in the deep swamp?

[limber hull]

Spino should not be an ambush predator. Dying to a spino should be the result of you asking for a fight

[karmic sequoia]

Ohyea

[mellow sphinx]

That's just cuz swamp sucks ass rn really hope they change it

[limber hull]

Spinos aren't in the current game, so this point is kinda moot. The map will obviously be updated by the time spinos rock around

[karmic sequoia]

Maybe, but deino's playstle seems to compliment the rivers while adult spinos could do swamps

Swamps work better for the big fish spino could hunt too

[wide kelp]

it's speculation and conjecture for sure, before this we were discussing oviraptors and toodons....all moot points but the mechanics still don't add up for me.

[limber hull]

I'd say deino compliments the swamp more honestly. Deinos are in rivers so much because the map is like 95% river and 5% swamp, it's pretty statistically obvious that deino players will go to rivers

[mellow sphinx]

there are also lakes though that will come in the future, spinos could dominate lakes

Spinos in lakes, Deinos in swamps, rivers neutral ground probably lots of barys and stuff

[wide kelp]

ok but how is a lake any different unless you're gonna have it go from bank to 30 ft deep instantly which just doesn't make sense even for spino

[karmic sequoia]

If they keep the current swamp design (shallow sections in the center), then deino will have a harder time ambushing prey at the banks without surprising them - deepwater lakes would change that

[limber hull]

why would it not make sense for a spino to swim lmao

[mellow sphinx]

Haven't there been lake, swamp and river concepts showing each will be very different?

or was it just river and swamp

[wide kelp]

all water whether it's lake, river, ocean has a shore line....and for the most part, at least anywhere you'd have prey coming to drink, you've got a gradient from shallow to deep. Again, Deinosuchus wins with stealth and lunge to grab prey. Spino would be seen from far away lumbering toward any potential prey. Unless it was just so slow it couldn't outrun it, the Spino has zero reason to be in the water. Not that it can't or shouldn't swim just saying it's woefully disadvantaged

[karmic sequoia]

This is all I could find

[mellow sphinx]

ah and this one

[karmic sequoia]

oo thx

[mellow sphinx]

outside of the discussion; those 3 concepts are so fucking good i love them

[wide kelp]

the only way I see it working is by somehow having certain areas advantageous to Spino. Maybe like Hot zones where their sail would allow them 100% up time, but Deinos would be too hot and suffer some penalty making them avoid the area leaving it to the Spino

[mellow sphinx]

Maybe, I really don't know at this point how they'll do it

[karmic sequoia]

well, it's late and I'm tired
Thx for the fun talk :)

[wide kelp]

same

[jagged jewel]

@maiden anvil pretty sure those are planned to an extent

also i don’t think its a paleo accurate size for diablo

still dont mind it though

[barren zephyr]

@hard steeple how is stego not being able to tail swing just because of an allo, it uses the tail to do so, not the belly or the back

@kindred kiln of course, make it even easier to ambush and less skilled

[hard steeple]

because it uses its legs in addition to actually make enough momentum, watching the animation it moreso uses its hips, if an allo for example were to be holding basically its hips in place since its grappling to its body, is fairly heavy, and also still holding its feet to the ground, then it in theory prevents it from swinging its tail @barren zephyr

plus balance wise its pretty viable too since it would have to risk a lot in order to get that close in the first place

[barren zephyr]

Ok, but I don't think they are making an ability that blocks attacks except it drains insane amounts of stam of the attacker

[hard steeple]

its why legacy stego is so dumb, just bends its tale with semingly no effort, compared to evrima where it actually makes sense

[barren zephyr]

It should cost a lot of stam if it is blocking attacks

[hard steeple]

sure, you could argue that, but you dont really know and its moreso a stunlock for high risk/ rewards

ofc

theres ways to balance it and it was just an idea but its not insanely radical or overpowered either

plus i just remembered if im not wrong, rex was teased a similar ability, being able to pin animals

if ur not a fan go put an ❌ but thats my thought process of it d:

[barren zephyr]

@steel vector you don't know any of the stats diablo will have, and even if you did they could change when we get diablo in some years

[hard steeple]

lechuga out.

[barren zephyr]

@steel vector also, carno is not oversize, it's 1.8T and that is 300 kg less than the max stimated weight for carno

Looks like your complains only comes from carnos killing you in game

And lastly, the sizes don't have to be real, this is not a game that represents the real life of the dinosaurs

[kindred kiln]

im guessing you have some grudge against deino players xD however im looking at it from a real life point of view ;P
"How long can an alligator stay underwater? Easily 20 to 30 minutes and they can stay under from 1 hour to 24 hours if necessary and conditions are right. They prepare slowly to stay underwater for those long period by slowing their heart beat, temperature, etc."
this is what ive found by googling how long alligator can hold its breath just now and it sounds right xP i would say current deino breath holding capability is okay my suggestion is to make the oxygen go down much slower only if its not moving due to possible slowing down heart rate etc xP and theres also aspect of the game in which devs simply cannot make it 1:1 ratio with reality xd irl alligators can camouflage themselves in mud or even stay just under the surface of water when they can still breathe but not be visible to potential prey xP irl it works but in game players gonna scan entire surface of water nearby to see if there are crocs nearby even if deino could stay just under the surface and be super hard to spot people still gonna do it so i think letting it hold its breath much longer while not moving is perfectly reasonable suggestion

[hard steeple]

agreed

[barren zephyr]

@maiden anvil I don't think it is that small, it looks as big as teno, even slightly bigger, also, I think styraco and pachyrhino are planned or were commented by the devs

But the sizes look different in most sketches of the concept art, so is hard to tell

And like always, the size could change, and that is more probable the more time that takes for the release of the playable, and I guess at least 3 years for diablo

[maiden anvil]

Very well, then I have nothing to worry about

Thank you for your respond guys!

[static niche]

deino is an ambush predator ? it’s basically it’s whole niche

[stray holly]

He’s muted

[static niche]

😂😂

[wide kelp]

The Denio having to surface more often to possibly give away it's location to prey is a balancing factor. Personally, I'd like the Deino to have longer breath considering the amount of time we have to wait around for prey. Having played both sides, it's easy as any other dino to survey the waterways before attempting a drink. As a Deino you have a rather limited view of the shoreline and your window for attack is extremely slim. It is certainly doable but would be a quality of life thing for Deino. I like the above suggestion if stamina were tied to oxygen depletion. If you sprint underwater it uses up your oxygen more.

[static niche]

yeah. i was just responding to the guy who really seemed against ambushing lol, calling it ‘less skilled’ is a stupid point.

[wide kelp]

I'd argue the Deino is the most fun and fleshed out dino in EVRIMA right now. It is by far one of the most fun to play if done right. It has a wonderful balance of player skill and mechanic abilities to really make the gameplay fun

[quasi kindle]

not a bad idea

[quasi kindle]

we do not need more troll dinosaurs then nobody will use it

[tepid gate]

I don't mind/care whether Deino gets to stay under water longer but one thing you guys keep ignoring while talking about how long it holds its breath is that time in the game=/=time irl. Based on how long a day lasts in the game 5 minutes irl(which I believe is how long Deino can hold its breath for atm?) equates to 2 hours in the game.

[trail zodiac]

@elfin lantern Legacy is no longer being worked on.

[elfin lantern]

when evrima will be on geforce?

[icy lion]

Not until it replaces legacy, sadly GFN doesn't work with Steam betas

[elfin lantern]

😢

[hoary dawn]

they should just make evrima the official branch already

legacy is more of a beta than it at this point

[mellow sphinx]

Never really been a fan of the rumbling sound that Rex made so I’d prefer a roar, and besides the roar is already created so less work bringing the Rexes roars over from legacy and just modifying those

[karmic sequoia]

@limber hull I added a ✅ to cancel you out

:P

[limber hull]

self upvote haha everyone mock this guy

(im fucking around btw dont)

[karmic sequoia]

I deserve it.

Ngl it's awful, but neccessary

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-perfectlybalanced-gif-18301221

[limber hull]

i still dont think troo deserves to lose mimicry

[karmic sequoia]

I guess they could both have it, but that makes it feel less special

[limber hull]

well troodon isn't losing it no matter what

so either ovi gets it or ovi gets something else instead

[karmic sequoia]

Like?

[limber hull]

just make it insanely good at finding and getting to nests

[karmic sequoia]

But how? Temporary invincibility so it doesn't get

[limber hull]

galli can only really get to ground nests, tree nests or burrow nests are out of its expertise. It could also be worse at actually smelling out the nests. Ovi could have not only an amazing sense for nearby nests, but the ability to invade burrows and climb things just to reach them.

[limber hull]

mimicry doesn't save it from that so idk why invincibility would be a necessary alternative

[karmic sequoia]

I'm just baffled

Can't understand what the devs think will make it a fun playable

[limber hull]

it's meant to be THE egg-stealer. Galli can do egg-stealing, but ovi is meant to be the professional egg-stealer niche

[karmic sequoia]

I still can't see how it could do that reliably for herbivores (carnis have to hunt)

I could see it outplaying a lone parent who has to occasionally leave the nest but not two

[icy lion]

It's an omnivore though

wait

[karmic sequoia]

so is galli

wait

[icy lion]

I think I misunderstood your message my bad

[karmic sequoia]

lol ya

[icy lion]

You mean that carnis leave the nest more often right?

[karmic sequoia]

bingo

[proud coral]

I like the idea of both Troodon and Ovi getting mimicry, but both doing it differently.

[limber hull]

how could it be done differently

[manic flint]

One can do other playables and one can do ambient sounds?

[limber hull]

So one is good and one is pretty useless :P

[urban flax]

Ovi crouch-sprinting is all I have to say and all I'm advocating for

Or there's also the possibility of Ovi being able to grab things while sprinting and having 2 grabbing slots

[ivory summit]

grabbing eggs while sprinting, nice idea

[limber hull]

thats completely untrue lmao

[merry mantle]

🤦‍♂️

[limber hull]

and hes gone

[merry mantle]

I thought something was a miss lol

[signal beacon]

Bro and I thought I hated carno holy fucking shit

[last lily]

I think that’s a war crime

[urban flax]

@left drift carnos don't have balls nor penises, they have cloacas, just like most birds and reptiles. Also devs have already said trapping/chaining live dinos probably won't be a thing.

[signal beacon]

Wtf is going on anymore?

[urban flax]

My comment wasn't made to be serious, but we also found preserved dinosaur cloacas. I'm not gonna say anything else because I don't want to be banned from here
You might want to delete your post, too.

[signal beacon]

Why the fuck do we need to be talking about dinosaurs penises?!

CEASE

[last lily]

That's for the realm of paleotalk

[signal beacon]

Honestly I'm concerned as to how the fuck you came up with that post.

STOP

WE DONT NEED TO KNOW THIS

[urban flax]

Lightning striking randomly at dinos and insta-killing them ? No thanks

[manic flint]

Lmao BoB

We don't need RNG

[hoary dawn]

rng lightning is confirmed to not be happening

[lilac bolt]

Wasn't fire gonna be a thing during lightning storms?

[barren zephyr]

Radical idea

What if hunger was tied to stam regen

[tight oxide]

so uh I kinda just went under the map thx to pouncing a turtle

and now a Carno family is here...

[manic flint]

Ark

[empty epoch]

@scarlet nova if the devs haven't changed their minds, we're getting both

[minor shale]

I cant kill a boar as a juvi utah, is there a bug or its just really hard lol

[tawny copper]

It's just very hard

[pure quiver]

I think giving them major damage would be cool, the smaller the more lethal, but also way less likely! But only if not under cover. In a field, standing in the open, 1 in 10K. Next to a tree in a field that's 1 in 1K! tall objects attract lightning! If under the cover of jungle that reduces the chances to 1 in 1M. If under a rock or in a cave it removes all chances. But you could experience seeing a strike close by depending on jungle or field stats. Also Radio tower is now LIGHTNING TOWER and you WILL die if you're touching it.

[stray holly]

https://tenor.com/view/fighting-elephant-vs-rhino-animal-fight-night-world-rhino-day-quarreling-mortal-enemies-gif-23168876

@turbid shore

Herbivore aggression has been observed countless times in the animal kingdom as displayed in this gif. If you want to have a good time playing herbivore, I strongly suggest finding a group of players that share your play style and sticking with them. There’s no reason to create an anti friendly fire mechanic to suit your individual needs. At the end of the day this is a game and it needs to cater to everyone’s play style.

[uneven mist]

«Herbivores are friendly bc they eat plants»

[mystic parcel]

Wait until they find out about hippos

The most cuddly herbivore in the word psh

[uneven mist]

Or zebras

[mystic parcel]

Lmao yea those literally murder babies in their own herd

Ppl keep thinking herbivores need to act like Bambi

[stray holly]

People that think this way should make the effort to find people that play the way they do (which is 90% of the playerbase if we’re being honest) and stick with them. Again, to change an entire aspect of the game just to suit X crowd’s play style is ludicrous.

[mystic parcel]

@edgy iron wdym bring it back? It gonna be in game

Eventually

[mystic parcel]

Ikr these suggestion are something that can be fixed in a server with rules. Als the "herbivores shouldn't be able to friendly fire" is just gonna end up being an abused mechanism. Yeesh

Imagine 5 tenos tail slamming a carno bunched together cuz they don't get friendly fired

[uneven mist]

@edgy iron bringing allo now would fuck over balance bc everyeone would play the big bad carnivore

[mystic parcel]

Can't wait for a pack of 20 ceratos when it's released lmao

[uneven mist]

Hope they dont make it so cera is stupidly op (bringing back ceratorex)

[mystic parcel]

I think it'll be like 2 carnos vs 1 Cera maybe.

That's just my guess

[urban flax]

I hope that cera will have 9000 health and a 1k damage bite

[mystic parcel]

Oh yesss

[urban flax]

And that it'll be called tyrannosaurus rex

[mystic parcel]

Every time it bites it nukes the surrounding area

[uneven mist]

Cera should win in the jungle while carno in the plains, i dont want one of them to win in both areas

[edgy iron]

@uneven mist i would absolutely mutilate the body guarding steggos

[urban flax]

@swift summit That's literally confirmed

[swift summit]

O

@urban flax Das cool

[urban flax]

Yep

[pure quiver]

Pretty much however far carno's leg scrunches up when in crouch, the same distance should able to clear rocks, logs, and steps when walking or leaping

[icy tinsel]

is the dam gonne be removed or like the carnivors can walk over it or smth?

[urban flax]

It's unlikely that it will get removed
As for "fixing" it, we got no info on that

[jagged jewel]

imo galli should not be trusted by other herbivores while they’re nesting

[limber hull]

gallis arent even herbis

[jagged jewel]

exactly why i’m saying that

Deinocheirus-theduck said that they should only be able to eat eggs up to a certain size so they could be more trusted by herbis

imo gallis should be better off only sticking with other gallis

[uneven mist]

@blazing lake galllis should be a threath to every dino no matter the diet.

[blazing lake]

well its just an imagine depends on if galli's positioning is group with huge herbi flock and provide alerts for them

[uneven mist]

I think dryo fits that role, but gallis should be a threath to every dino bc i dont want to see gallis stealing eggs and being protected by trikes or stegos

[barren zephyr]

I would rather have gallimimus not be an egg thief

well i guess it could opportunistically eat eggs, but it should mainly be eating plants

[blazing lake]

emm yeah its a little weird to make an omni be group guardian

[barren zephyr]

the thing is that many smaller carnivores should also be able to eat eggs (e.g. raptors, troodon, etc)

we shouldnt have any obligate ovivores

[blazing lake]

ovi can still be special egg-stealer

[barren zephyr]

I rather wouldnt have it as such

it should be able to fall back on eggs as a food source, sure, but it shouldnt be predominantly feeding on them

especially as eggs realistically will be a seasonal food source

egg eating snakes get away with eating eggs because really they dont do a lot other than sit around (as typical of most snakes) and going to eat eggs when hungry (which happens like once or twice a week or something?

[blazing lake]

I think egg will be a a source of one of the nutritional requirements, but u can fill this nutrition with something others, like lizard or bugs

[barren zephyr]

regardless seeing the risky nature of egg theft, ovi should be a more generalised omnivore

[blazing lake]

it wont be a egg-demanders but still have ability do these bad things
ovi can be another ptera, a more annoying one

[calm granite]

couldn’t care less for night vision tbh

it’s a pointless mechanic that just takes up more time, why not just make night kinda dark and whoever has poopoo eye sight gets jumped

like now pretty much lol

[limber hull]

i personally love the idea of NV

NV was one of my fave features from legacy

[calm granite]

i just used filters

[limber hull]

cringe

[calm granite]

couldn’t stand the damn thing

[limber hull]

so you cheated lmao

[urban flax]

I don't think preventing every dino player from playing the game half the time is a good thing

[calm granite]

yeah but i still sucked so

[limber hull]

i never understood why people say that NV "prevented you from playing the game". It just meant it was harder to see lmao, scent and hearing worked perfectly fine

[urban flax]

I say the absence of NV would prevent you to play the game

Having nightvision is essential with how dark Isle nights are

[calm granite]

filters are king, will still use them

[limber hull]

thats legit so fucking sad lmao

[calm granite]

unless ofc the new nv is good

[limber hull]

imagine cheating in a dinosaur game

[calm granite]

bro

im not dealing with that shit again

[limber hull]

"isle hackers are so cringe"
proceeds to download third party software to gain an advantage

[calm granite]

bro what

[limber hull]

same shit

[calm granite]

cry about it ig 😎

[limber hull]

i hope they just hard-cap viewdistance at night so filters do jackshit

so fucking lame that animals which entirely rely on the darkness as an advantage will get spotted by animals with no right hunting them

[calm granite]

crazy

i use filters to make my game more vibrant too

[limber hull]

game's already vibrant as-is lmao

tf you want, BoB?

[calm granite]

turn the vibrance off at night tho cuz that shit be blue asf

not that vibrant my guy

a tad bit

and i don’t use insane filters lol i can’t see EVERYTHING at night

[limber hull]

night vision was the coolest shit in Legacy, seeing glimpses of a massive fucking apex was so fucking horrifying and awesome

[calm granite]

my eye sight is trash too

[limber hull]

room for improvement, obv

but i liked the concept

[calm granite]

hated it.

trembled in fear when i heard the footsteps

[limber hull]

i loved that shit

it was so fucking cool

[calm granite]

then glowing eyes form into a rex

ambushing.

cool but not for me

[limber hull]

exactly, so fucking awesome

[calm granite]

btw mr cera are you in da stress test

[limber hull]

best way to experience night was playing a dryo, sprinting to the hotspots and having a panic bunker for if a giant apex is near

[jagged jewel]

there's a stress test right now?

[calm granite]

not rn

but you can sign up i think

[jagged jewel]

ah alr

[stray holly]

GeForce Experience comes built into most systems with an Nvidia GPU.

[calm granite]

they’ll never remove it

[stray holly]

Haven’t heard of someone downloading gamma

[calm granite]

if they do i’ll use something else

[limber hull]

try using NV

[calm granite]

i will mr cera

but if i no like

also you didn’t answer me mr cera

[stray holly]

I’m pretty sure they’re fully capable of disabling it and just have chosen not to up to this point for whatever reason.

[calm granite]

good.

[limber hull]

it's a videogame. There sometimes are things in videogames people don't like. Incredible stuff

[calm granite]

true

[barren zephyr]

Bru NV is cool it enhances the survival aspect of the game and the terror of not knowing if there is an apex or a dryo in front of you

That’s why I hate when people use things like gamma it makes dillo useless

[covert pagoda]

Stegosaurs should give // for the carnotaur diet.

[limber hull]

no

[calm granite]

yes

[covert pagoda]

Why no ?

[jovial hazel]

Aren't they going to use the fog for night vision? So you just can't see past the distance you're supposed to, even with gamma.

[jagged jewel]

carno is a small game hunter

[covert pagoda]

And a very big game hunter. They also preyed on Sauropods.

[candid mulch]

They preyed on sauropods because they were big slow targets.Stegos are pretty much tanks and messes up carnos style of hunting

[urban flax]

@maiden anvil What would be the point of the attack ? What you're describing is literally spam-kicking, but... in random directions ?

[jagged jewel]

however stegos are not sauropods and can defend themselves better, and if a carno ever preyed on a sauropod, it would be either a baby or it was already dead

[last lily]

Or a "dwarf" sauropod, of which we are getting down the line.

[jagged jewel]

i don't think there were any dwarf sauropods coexisting with carno irl

[candid mulch]

Yeah I don’t really get it either.Just looking at it from a survival technique no animal is dumb enough to just start randomly kicking

[last lily]

If memory serves right, Carno's ecosystem is largely speculative... but I don't think the sauropods there were particularly exceptional in size with what we do have.. Gonna have to check on that though in-case we've finally figured out what formation it belonged to.

[jagged jewel]

well we know that it existed in what is now south america, which had a lot of megafauna iirc

we also know it was mainly a small game hunter

[last lily]

Wanting more Carnotaurus fossils vs not sure where in South America to look = pain.

[jagged jewel]

true lol

[candid mulch]

@turbid shore I get what you mean but we just need to wait for community servers to get to Evirma to enforce rules such as not killing randomly.Also what if you’re in a situation where you need to compete for food with another herbi

[maiden anvil]

lol I knew people wouldn’t like my suggestion. Though I do think it would be neat if it had the bull dance to defeat carnos more easily

[maiden anvil]

What’s wrong with spam kicking in the first place?

[urban flax]

Nothing
Hence my confusion

Why do you want to replace spam kicking with an attack that is the same thing, but in random directions ?

[maiden anvil]

Maybe I did explain it a little badly but I didn’t want to sound like “at different directions” more like the way we can direct kick now with tenonto

[urban flax]

So what would the difference be ?

[maiden anvil]

The difference would be that tenonto wouldn’t have such a large time gap between each kick but more like two kicks a second or less

Might have to remove my suggestion so I can find a better way to explain it in the future

[urban flax]

That seems huge
I don't think teno needs a buff in that department anyway

[maiden anvil]

Which is why I said less. For example, the way I see it with carno vs tenonto is that carno would heavily rely on charge to bring tenonto down instead of causally just chasing it down. If those two creature would engage in an actual fight then tenonto would most of time come out on top. It’s why I suggested a bull dance attack because it both suits it and would help it a lot

[urban flax]

And where would you even place it on the keyboard ? Teno already has a full set of attacks
Wouldn't buffing kick a little bit be way easier ? (if it even needs that buff, cause afaik tenos can already fend off carnos)

[maiden anvil]

Not really, it shouldn’t be hard for tenonto to kill a carno and wouldn’t require much skills in my opinion. All though you’ve made your opinion understandable and I see what you mean. I appreciate your feedback too

Btw, @urban flax you’re a smart guy. What would you change to make teno being able to kill carno more easily?

[urban flax]

Stop calling me a smart guy it's getting embarrassing x)
I'm not skilled enough at the game (and haven't played a lot of teno) to be able to tell what I would do. But if teno lacks in damage, then increase the damage of its attacks, if it lacks in endurance, decrease the stamina cost of the attacks...
Although from what I've heard the main problem is the kick hitbox, which is both very small and buggy
Fixing it would be a good start

[maiden anvil]

Oh I never knew it’s kicking was broken… then I can agree with you on fixing it being a good start

Also I removed my suggestion because I refuse to let people think that I’m not smart lol

[burnt bone]

keeping it would still be good, it shows the devs that they should not do it still.

[covert pagoda]

According to the book this is from, Carnotaurs and other abelliosaurs preyed on them by biting chunks out of unsuspecting adults and then booking it. The targets where usually still very much alive.

[covert pagoda]

This is more about balance than anything, really. It is currently impossible for Carnotaurs to maintain their diet. Putting Stegos on their diet solves that.

So, should I put it into the balance chat ?

[jagged jewel]

i would

[icy lion]

@remote star There's some merch if physical goods are your fancy! https://survivetheisle.com/store

[maiden anvil]

Never thought of it that way. Then I shall keep my suggestions next time

[candid mulch]

If it’s about balance I cannot find the problem.They have Utahs, Pachys, Ai, etc on their diet.Their diet it good enough where the game is right now

[covert pagoda]

The Problem is that all of those do not contribute to //, and the only two things that do, Deer and Dryo, are functionally nonexistant in the game. During the last week, I have encountered a single dry and less than 6 deer. That is not enough to maintain a perfect diet.

[high nymph]

@amber field if you get attacked by something that doesn’t even do enough dmg for you to notice it, how do you even lose against it?

And doesn’t your Dino make a noise everytime it gets attacked?

[amber field]

Because there's no significant amount of damage being dealt in a single bite, but after 4/5 you see the overlay and notice "oh there's something murdering me."

[high nymph]

Im curious, what Dino are you playing for that to happen?

[amber field]

The reason i thought of this was after i lost my 2-week full grown Deino to another full grown deino underwater. I had just killed his Stego friends (lmao imagine teaming up with stegos as a croc) and was out of stamina. We had enough food for me, him and another adjacent baby and uhh, he didn't take it too kindly that i killed his beloved herbivores. So he came from behind and started biting at me underwater. I couldn't really see or hear anything before i was already at 80/70% HP though, so even after i started fighting back i couldn't out-damage him.

[high nymph]

Unless it’s juvi ptera, juvi Utah or a hypsi attacking you, all dinos are pretty noticable

[high nymph]

Goodjob on killing the mixpackers ❤️

But if that deino won the fight with you at 80% hp meant it had to be almost same size as you

[amber field]

Yeah, we were both full from what i gathered

It was really depressing losing my deino like that, but it happens. I just really couldn't see what was happening before it was too late.

[high nymph]

Sorry to say. Doesn’t really look like a mechanic flaw, just yours ^^

[amber field]

Well, it's not like the mechanic failed or anything, it's fair to say that. It just could be a bit more visible, there's a bit of room for improvement there.

[high nymph]

I guess underwater its hard to notice, but there is a blue indicator you get every time something close to you moves underwater

[sleek shuttle]

while personally I dont think it wouldn't be a game changer I do think it would be helpful and at least could be a toggleable mechanic, and it would make sense from a realistic view, another idea I had would be if it could determine what kind of damage you took like if it was a tail or head shot

[high nymph]

@covert pagoda I like the idea, but the problem is that it still forces me to play something I would not, I’m now a pachy main but let’s say I like allo a lot. I have distribute my play time between allo and a herbivor 50/50. Where I rather just play allo 100% of the time and die 10x more often trying to reach adult

[cyan flame]

@covert pagoda Quick note, I'm not sure on point drain/bonus for damage, since it sounds like that could be vaguely abused (irritate a herbi into fighting you, or just do nibbles on your target every now and then, instead of a proper kill). Though as long as drain for carni/gain for herbi otherwise makes up for it, I guess it would work out, it just sounds a little odd to me. Aside from that, while I do like that it'd make herbis much more "viable" in being chosen to play as, there's still the whole having to be a herbi to gain points for a carni, and I don't think I can agree with that, even if it does have it's points. I wish there was a way to make herbis this useful (since they should outnumber carnis in the ecosystem and all), but without the "limitation", but perhaps that's more or less wishful thinking. In any case, it's a well thought out idea and system, and was well described, so points for that!

[covert pagoda]

You actually don't. Allosaurs wouldn't be top drains because they aren't Apexes, and dying early on in your life would mean that you would die at a very low modifier. Playing a top earner with their high exponential point gain increase for about 4 hours should suffice to allow you to try to grow that allosaurus like 15 times, and to be an adult for 2 hours before you incure your first debt.

In the current version of my not balance adjuted points scale, I would put something like a 15 points fee on it, so as long as you die before you're 15 minutes in each time, you'd have quite a few attempts.

[high nymph]

Lets day I keep my allo alive for 20 hours. After that I have to play herbivor to build up my points again

[burnt bone]

@covert pagoda although I do like the concept, I have 2 issues
1: it seems a bit too herbie bias. I understand that herbies should be incentivized, but making small carnivores drain points while a stego can earn seems harsh. Maybe make it based on size, but still favored to herbies. Pachy and utah are roughly the same size, so pachy should earn 50 and utah should earn 40. That way it doesn’t force people to play herbivores, but makes herbies better for grinding points. Also, large herbies should drain points, no reason a steg should earn while a deino drains,

2: don’t make it drain points as you play. What happens if you run out? You just die? Do you go negative? Just make it cost a certain amount of points to play.

Also tie it into the elder system, since you are incentivized to die. Make dying of old age give you a boost of points, so you don’t die of old age just to have to grind again.

Otherwise, it’s a good way to allow people to play what they want while still incentivizing them to diversify playstyles.

[high nymph]

Also one more thing. I think this system forces players to play dryo too much. All carnivors will just play dryo to get quick points and the servers would be flooded with this creature

[cyan flame]

@covert pagodaI'm not sure on the debt as well. You're kind of punishing someone for staying alive successfully, which is, well, kind of against the point of a survival game. Not sure how to fix it though, will have to think on that.

[covert pagoda]

But for significantly less time due to it not being an apex. Numbers would need to be adjusted of course, but top earned should allow the play of mid tiers with little investment. The Dryo flood is the point btw.

[burnt bone]

That’s still good though, it’s supposed to be a prey item.

So a lot of dryos means a lot of food for smaller predators

[high nymph]

True but does it build a balanced ecosystem?

[cyan flame]

I would say that if you do base it on size, instead of herbi/carni, then the carni should only be half as much worth, if not only a third. We don't want equal amount of utahs vs dryos.

We ideally want far more dryos than utahs, if we go by an ecosystem so keep that in mind.

[brittle sail]

@covert pagoda I like where your head is at, but I think any mode with such a heavy handed approach to population control would be incredibly unpopular

[burnt bone]

If it’s a 5:1 ratio of dryo to carno, then that pretty balanced, even a 1:1 is better than it is now

[high nymph]

I get that. But I mean considering other herbivors like pachy or teno or something small, nobody is gonna pick that over dryo if they just looking for points

[covert pagoda]

1: that must be discerned in balance trials later on. The general trend must be that herbivores are better in the economy, but small carnivores definetly don't deserve to drain all that much.
2: You didn't read the proposal properly. You explicitly do not die, but rather start incurring debt if you reach 0. This prevents you from instantly restarting as the same carnivore if you die.

[brittle sail]

And if that becomes the main mode then I imagine the playercount would take a nosedive, as it would incentivize playing incredibly safe on the things you grinded for - if I'm reading it right

[cyan flame]

I think the debt part needs a rework. We do after all want to reward someone who survives, unless that debt only comes into play if you do not go into elder, and/or after you've had time to become elder, so you can avoid it if you play "right". Or something similar perhaps.

[high nymph]

@covert pagoda Overall good suggestion! 👍

[cyan flame]

Well that's true, but I guess they'd be close in point earn. I was more so thinking carni vs herbi if we go by size. If you have utah, pachy, teno, dryo, and cerato, we want the herbis to be at least 3:1 or so to the carnis, I think at least.

[covert pagoda]

It just means that surviving becomes even more critical. Perhaps there should be rewards for people who manage to massively indebt themselves in the form of faster elder progression.

[burnt bone]

That still seems a bit harsh, imagine having to jump off a cliff because your life as a Rex was too successful and you want to not be in WAY too much debt.

[brittle sail]

also for herbivores that just sounds like it incentivizes avoiding player interaction, so while the diversity of the ecosystem will go up - player encounters will go way down

[burnt bone]

Maybe make it reach a maximum amount of points it can drain over your life

[cyan flame]

Maybe I missed something, but as soon as you start incurring debt, why would you not just jump off a cliff, go herbi to gain points back, and then try again? Why keep surviving as whatever carni you are? Did I miss something obvious here?

[covert pagoda]

That sounds hillarious, tbh.

[burnt bone]

Yeah, but not good from that player’s perspective.

[covert pagoda]

No. I assumed that you would want to keep surviving because you enjoy playing that dinosaur.

[brittle sail]

Also, this system rewards people who can afford to spend 12h a day at their PC; not those that are actually decent at survival

[covert pagoda]

I personally do not see an issue with that. I probably would just treat debt as a high score, to be honest.

[cyan flame]

You would yes, but since you'd eventually die, you kind of.. screw yourself over with a massive debt.

Or so it would seem at least.

[covert pagoda]

That's false. It rather levels the playing field between the two. No matter how much time you have, being bad at survival will prevent you from reaching high modifiers, so people who are actually good at it will have much higher point gains in much less time.

[cyan flame]

If I do very well as a herrera, even if it's low point drain, at some point I'd be so in debt I'd have to work hard to get out of it. Despite enjoying being a herrera, I will die at some point. Would it not benefit me to die at point zero then and regrow?

[high nymph]

👆

[brittle sail]

Good intentions with poor execution I think - maybe a system where dinosaurs with a lower population organically just have a + growth speed modifier would work similar without restricting players

[covert pagoda]

That is very true, and also somewhat the point here.

[cyan flame]

You're going to have to explain your goal there I think.

[covert pagoda]

Exponential point gains are supposed to alleviate that. Only Apex predators would have their drain match the gain of top earners.

[brittle sail]

Sounds like a "I hate apex players" thread in disguise idk

[high nymph]

Who doesn’t tho?

[covert pagoda]

I play Apexes myself and I hate them.^^

[brittle sail]

But instead of shifting their growth or making them difficult to maintain, it's just an arbitrary punishment telling you that you shouldn't play apex

[cyan flame]

Let me read through it again, I could have misunderstood something. But I'm not sure how the exponential changes that, since it adds debt, just as it adds gain.

[covert pagoda]

So yeah, the goal is to achieve a balanced eco system through a points economy.

[high nymph]

Carno = apex atm. I think everyone hates those

[brittle sail]

In such an inorganic way, again: I like the goal, but dislike the execution

[cyan flame]

That much I very much agree with. I do like how you've incentivized being a herbi, and the smaller ones over the bigger ones at that. Much as I like stego, I do also adore the dryo, so that'd be just fine! But not sure on the locking down carni side, and the debt thing kind of confuses me. You reward a herbi staying alive, but not a carni, and while I get the aim, I'm not sure that'll be popular at all. People do tend to love carnis over herbis, for one reason or another.

[covert pagoda]

Because different dinosaurs start at different base values. A Rex could start at, let's say, 120 points and drain from there, whereas an allosaurus could start at 15. So, if dryo would start at 100 and earn from there, you would be able to play several days as an allosaurus based on a single successfull dryo day, whereas the Rex would necessitate you to grind for a while longer.

[cyan flame]

Yeah, that much I got. I think I'm confused as to the point of "punishing" the carni for surviving "too long" as it were.

Since you said that was sort of part of it

[covert pagoda]

To get them out of the economy/ecosystem. A Carni that survives long enough for debt to become an issue is clearly terrorising the local everything, and therefore destabilising the ecosystem. But you are right in that they should earn something for their troubles, so maybe integrate debt as a positive point output for the elder system ? I.e., the more debt, the more XP you have towards becoming an Elder ?

[cyan flame]

That could work, gives them a reward and also gets them into the rebirth cycle proper.

So you get them out of the system but in the right way as it were.

[high nymph]

@thorny lynx Not every child can be beautyfull 🤪

[covert pagoda]

Yeah, that has to go into the suggestion text though.

[cyan flame]

And yeah, I get the point you're going for, but since it is a survival game, it kind of goes against that to say "nah, you should die cause you did too good", but if it can be tied to the elder system, that gives it a proper reason.

[thorny lynx]

I know. I just don't wanna come out looking like those beige and olive spotted gigas. -shudder-

[burnt bone]

I still suggest allowing smaller carnivores to either earn or break even with the elder system.

[thorny lynx]

Like. You know how the top of the dino and markings are usually the darkest in legacy? Switch it around except beige and olive.

I do not, and will not stand for that kinda RNG

[covert pagoda]

Yeah, small carnivores could potentially be earners or neutral, but they should never be anywhere close to small Herbivores.

[brittle sail]

Sounds like it's also just a way to artificially inflate mid-large carnivore growth time; as you now need to grind something you don't want to play or your friends are not playing just to be able to do what you want

Which could instead be done with stricter diets or more difficult growth cycles for said dinos, so you aren't punishing those that don't have 6h on a Wednesday afternoon to be a bushwookie dryo so they can accumulate points

[covert pagoda]

This would have no impact on growth times. Though lowering growth times for certain dinosaurs might be in order if growth time isn't the main balancing factor anymore.

[burnt bone]

Depends on the carnivore, I’d like things like Troodons to be high earners, prob not as much as dryo, but close. But as you get larger, the gap starts to show. Utah makes like 1/4 of pachy or is neutral and teno is positive while carno is negative.

[brittle sail]

It does though. As to even start the growth cycle for say an allo or a rex, you need to have a significant amount of points saved up from other things to not be forced into the negatives should something go wrong

[covert pagoda]

Sounds like a very good Idea.

[thorny lynx]

Know what I think?

[covert pagoda]

Or be good and gather reward points. Also, the sheer exponential growth of Dryo earnings in this model should make this a non-concern for the vast amount of dinosaurs.

[brittle sail]

so the 5h rex timer becomes 5h of juvi rex + Xh of low tier herbivore , or 5 + 2x mid tier carnivore

[thorny lynx]

1 ton = 1 hour. So 8 tons, 8 hours, unless you're a sauropod.

If you're 500kg, 45 min growth.

Below 250kg, 30 min regardless of size

[brittle sail]

perfect. excellent system - should tag the devs and let them know you've solved the ecosystem problem

[covert pagoda]

I already did a few hours before posting.

That's where the Idea that top Herbivores should be neutral or drain originated.

[brittle sail]

Again: this sounds like for every one person you've got enjoying this system (aka being forced to play something they did not want to play), you're going to have 5 people with a stopwatch and dryo in a bush somewhere ready to jump off a cliff before they can go play ~2 or 3 lives of their favorite dino

[thorny lynx]

That would be me. I would rather play sandbox than do that shit

[burnt bone]

Yeah the other issue is that infinite debt is too much, imagine doing so good as a Rex on a server that you now can’t play anything big on it again. Make the debt a limited amount (maxing out as you hit adult) and dying as an elder refund half the points, if not more for smaller dinos

[cyan flame]

I don't think troodon, with it's venom and all, should be a good earner at all, since it might be way "powerful" for it's size. Maybe herrera, or if we get velo, or something similar, could work better there.

[brittle sail]

Like, it's such a heavy handed an ridiculous system as it is currently proposed. Imagine getting a friend in the isle and when they say "hey I want to play X, I got from 6-8 pm today" you say "nah man, we can't play that. Hope on the dryosaurus (it's the smallest herbivore and its only tool is to run) and we can grind that out today. Then tomorrow we can try to grow the thing you want"

[burnt bone]

I’m just basing it off the size, if troodon can punch up as much as a utah can, then it should be a moderate earner.

[brittle sail]

"what's that, you'd rather just go play a game - oh you've refunded it."

[covert pagoda]

The specifics are something that could only be decided during a proper testing face. I don't even pretend to have the proper numbers at this point, they should mainly serve as suggestions to show how it could potentially work. I'd expect to end up with widely varying math.

[cyan flame]

I'd say if we want to keep herbi over carni, even the top herbis should gain, even if it's just 1 point, or at the most be neutral, so it's still in favour if you want to save up or at least not lose out.

[covert pagoda]

Or you play literally any other herbivore, or a small carnivore earner.

[brittle sail]

i mean, if you want to see how a "point" system works you can just look at how free to play players felt playing on Nublar when it was around. Hint: not fun

[cyan flame]

Ah, yeah okay, but then taco/oro/hypsi should be the best earners I guess. And whatever other small stuff we have that I do not recall :p

[brittle sail]

Granted, not as robust as your system but the framework was there: points for playing, high tier carnivores cost a lot, and low tier herbivores were basically free

[thorny lynx]

This is just a suggestion and not an actual mechanic devs propose, right?

Imagine getting all those points to play a Rex and some idiot Theri decides to go run in a forest and Slash for no reason and now u ded

[brittle sail]

yeah, this is just a suggestion. I don't think the devs would ever implement something so heavy handed and awkward but it is interesting to discuss

[covert pagoda]

You would only lose the entry fee over that. You'd still have several attempts before you run into points issues.

[brittle sail]

best I could see is maybe a growth boost based on server population, wherein if nobody is playing X dino you can grow it rather fast.

[thorny lynx]

I don't care. If I want to die a bunch of times learning how to Rex, then dammit, I will commit to it.

[brittle sail]

nuh uh, you'll have to pay the dryo tax first 😉

if you want to play the big things you have to not have fun for X time before you can not have fun for Y time growing said thing

[covert pagoda]

And you still could under that system. You would only start to encounter issues if you are really good and stay alive for several days.

[thorny lynx]

Why not just ask for a progression mode

[covert pagoda]

Because progression mode is to rigid and forces you to play through an entire assortement of dinosaurs you may not like. This system cuts most of that out.

[brittle sail]

I'd actually be open to this idea as an alternate mode, just so we could see how 0 playerbase it would have lol

[brittle sail]

but still incorporates the framework of being rigid and forcing you to play dinosaurs you may not like.

for some reason

[covert pagoda]

The reason is to stabilise the ecosystem. And instead of what progression did, it only forces you to play that dinosaur once, before you should have accrued enough points to play whatever you want for quite a while.

[brittle sail]

If it's only forcing you to play it once (and briefly) then it sounds like the ecosystem won't be very stabilised

it's just an unnecessary timegate to fun

[cyan flame]

I think a progression mode with properly fleshed out prog trees that allows you to play a similar playstyle all the way "up", would work as well. That way you at least retain your preference in how you play, if not the exact animal you want to play. But then there are other issues with such a system. Which could happen in this one too I suppose.

[burnt bone]

Personally, if they do decide to add a system like this, it should be based off the elder system and only for apexes. So playing smaller creatures earns you more points per hour when you die to elder. For simplicity dryo grows in exactly 30 mins and awards 5 points. While an allo takes 5 hours and awards 25 points. Dryo earns 2x more points as allo, but if you play allo and reach elder, you are still rewarded.

Then once you get enough points, you can play as an apex

[covert pagoda]

It will be since it will sort based on skill, which seems to be your main concern. People who are actually good at what they want to play will experience it as you said, people who aren't will frequently have to play as earners.

[brittle sail]

What an incredible way to kill off the casual playerbase and leave a sweaty elitist community hostile towards any new players

The Isle doesn't even have that many players to afford a change like that

[thorny lynx]

Just ask for progression.

[burnt bone]

Yeah, one issue is where would specialists go? Beipi is very different from other omnis and semi-aquatics. What would pachy grow into?

[brittle sail]

again: if this is an alternate mode and not in survival proper then i suppose I don't have an issue with it. It could be, as Tarkov players call Labs, "The Aspie Playground"

[covert pagoda]

Why should that kill the casual player base though ? It provides both sides with ways to work towards whatever they want to play based on their respective skill levels. We should not pretend like the game is casual friendly to begin with anyways.

[brittle sail]

"people who aren't will frequently have to play as earners."

It's not casual friendly, this proposed change makes it blatantly casual hostile

[burnt bone]

If I have only an hour to play each day, that means half my days are just grinding as a dryo to play for a day as a larger carnivore.

[brittle sail]

earners aka fodder but who's splitting hairs.

[covert pagoda]

How is it casual hostile to give casual players the opportunity to play the dinosaurs they want in a more balanced and less cannibalistic ecosystem.

[cyan flame]

Very good question. We do have homalo for pachy but yeah. It'd require a adjusted roster no doubt.

[thorny lynx]

Pro 👏 gress 👏 ion

[brittle sail]

Fluff gets it

[covert pagoda]

Only if your choice of large carnivore is an apex, and only if you actually spend all that time successfully growing.

[thorny lynx]

We aren't gonna yell at you if you want progression back. This asinine workaround is extremely superfluous.

[brittle sail]

I just told you how. The "giving the oppurtunity" you tote is to play as fodder for enough time to attempt to grow the dinosaur you want

[covert pagoda]

I decidedly do not want progression, I want an economy system similar to my proposal.

[brittle sail]

I decidedly don't want an economy system

[covert pagoda]

Only if you want to play dinosaurs that actually drain, which will not be true for the majority of herbivores.

[thorny lynx]

It won't happen. Removing the illusion of choice, implementing gateways, and forcing people to play something they don't want without any sort of progressive outcome is a surefire way of someone wanting a refund or abandoning survival for Sandbox

[covert pagoda]

The progressive outcome would be the points earned towards the elder system, as well as of course the ability to play other dinosaurs.

[brittle sail]

Even Dondi doesn't like playing herbivore nor see the draw of it. So I think this suggestion is rather dead in the water

[burnt bone]

I’m just learning the flaws in this system. Imagine what the devs have to do with their choices. How they have to figure out a way to make thing balanced for hardcore players while still fun for casuals.

[thorny lynx]

The elder system IS the result of playing a dino for a long time and doing what you're supposed to. The game already has a self-destruct button for your dino.

[covert pagoda]

Yet, Herbivores still exist.

[brittle sail]

Correct, but nobody is forced to play them.

[covert pagoda]

Yes

[covert pagoda]

And look where that got us

[thorny lynx]

What you're asking devs to do is to hide dinosaurs and mechanics behind gateways. Nobody wants this.

[burnt bone]

They have to, otherwise the ecosystem isn’t sustainable and carnivores have less fun.

[brittle sail]

The game more popular than it has ever been and full servers across the entirety of Official Evrima

[covert pagoda]

Exactly, that's also my point.

[brittle sail]

golly gee, this sucks.

[covert pagoda]

With nothing but Apex megapacks, and yes, it does.

[brittle sail]

People like the current system, and people play regardless of apex megapacks. You'd rather alienate the playerbase so that hardcore players with 10h a day after high school can rack up points while most of the playerbase exists as fodder.

[thorny lynx]

It will be substantially more difficult to grow an apex. Everything will try to kill you and your hunger whilst growing will punish you constantly.

[burnt bone]

The issue is that most people dislike being fodder, yet it’s necessary. If we force people to play fodder, then we have much less players. If we don’t, then no one plays fodder and it’s less fun to play fodder. So that’s why we have ai as the fodder for us.

[brittle sail]

Can I make a counterpoint: instead of reworking the system for everyone, just go play a hyperrealism server that forces an ecosystem on you with rules. It's the same end goal but you can be with your ecosystem > fun brethren without forcing it on the rest of us

[burnt bone]

The reason we have apex mega packs in both legacy and evrima now is that the smaller herbivores are weaker. It’s more of a balance issue atm.

[thorny lynx]

Carno is overturned. It needs its legacy turn rate and its drift.

[cyan flame]

Where do you get the whole "fodder" from? Dryo should not be fodder anyway?

[brittle sail]

And I don't think forcing people to engage with that content is ever a good idea, it would lead to incredible bitterness

[low canopy]

official experience is doomed to be obnoxious with all the megapacking mixpacking and down the line when hypos come in everyone and their dog is playing carno/apex/utah just for the strain

[thorny lynx]

Strains are special, I think. You gotta do something spectacular to become one.

[brittle sail]

I mean, Roger called them "feeder" (or was it "earner") dinos in a previous message so I'm just operating on that thread

[thorny lynx]

I mean, why not just have a toggle for certain dinosaurs spawn as AI only and the rest spawn as player only? That way, we have both feeder dinos and player dinos.

Win win

[last lily]

People naturally drift towards what they feel is both fun and viable or offers genuine engagement. One of the issues with original progression and even survival is playing something you really don't want to play as, leading to a whole host of issues. I'd rather suffer as a juvi Tyrannosaurus, fight and work to grow up than have to grow multiple Dyros to farm points, or go through a whole list of other dinosaurs just to play the animal I want... Of which balance, resources, player count, and mechanics all find their way in to paint this ugly picture that is VERY difficult to balance.

[cyan flame]

Ah okay. Well, earner would not be the same as feeder/fodder, or at the very least should by no means be similar. Otherwise we're just creating playables that won't be enjoyable to play, no matter if you earn points not. Just got me a bit concerned there.

[burnt bone]

I don’t think carno is that bad personally, maybe increase it’s drift and nerf tracking hard. The issue is with the smaller animals, teno needs some minor adjustments and it’ll be fine. Pachy needs a way to escape after a break and for its ram to not be countered by carnos using WASD. And utah just needs it pounce to work.

[thorny lynx]

We need more smalls. That's what Carno was meant to hunt. Small shit, gulp it whole, move on. Its teeth were more for grabbing than shearing.

[burnt bone]

We are getting troodon, beipi, and maybe gali soontm

[last lily]

That was probably one of the key issues with progression.. players forced to play animals that they don't want to play as, as well as the point system painting playable as inherently lesser than the other, leading to everyone wanting to just up and abandon the smaller dinosaurs the moment they can get to larger more point heavy animals. I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to stay as a Sucho when Gigas, Acros, Allos, Rex's, Shants and Trikes all exist, so I may as well progress onto a spino.

Making growth hard but fun is another hell in and of itself though, as you need to combat AFK growth without making growth absolutely miserable.

[thorny lynx]

How tf we gon have nesting without Maia and Ovi smh

[last lily]

No Mother lizard for the egg update... and I think Mother's day is coming soon or passed? I honestly don't know.

[thorny lynx]

[covert pagoda]

Those people are already rewarded by growth timers. With my proposal, growth timers would no longer be the main balance factor and could be substantially lowered or reworked since they would non longer full fill that role.

[burnt bone]

Maia should be released on Mother’s Day. Change my mind

[covert pagoda]

I do hope so, yes.

[covert pagoda]

They should definetly be weaker than Apexes for several reasons, so the fix would need to come from somewhere else.

[brittle sail]

You're right, instead of playing as a juvi you are now timegated by playing something else entirely. Just wait for realism servers and we'll both be satisfied

[covert pagoda]

Earner, because they earn points. That has nothing to do with feeding anything.

[thorny lynx]

Thing is, apexes should only really hunt really big things. They shouldn't be fast enough to grief shit half their weight.

[brittle sail]

Correct, and the less agency you have as that dino, the more points you earn. You've made that clear and i think I've made a decent case for why this would be ridiculously unfun for most of the playerbase

[last lily]

It becomes less of a "Oh this playable is fun and unique!" and more of a "I'm only playing this thing to play what I actually want to play."

[brittle sail]

Ding ding ding

[covert pagoda]

It wasn't about agency but combat power. If you personally feel that agency only comes from the ability to kill, than this just isn't for you.

[last lily]

I'm..reluctant to dig too heavily into that, as many good and solid games have expansive design where the more you explore and travel/play, you more things open up and the more options you get...but that's also a very different genre of game and is more what the human factions will be going for.

[covert pagoda]

With the caveat that this only applies if you want to play very strong carnivores. In opposition to progression, this system would allow you to chose where you earn your points instead of having to go through a set chain.

[last lily]

Can't really do that in a game focused around animals that feels immersive and enjoyable off of the top of my head.(finishing up off my last post, by the way)

[brittle sail]

Yea, and you've correctly identified most of the isle playerbase that will no longer enjoy the xore gameplay loop

[burnt bone]

Legacy had no reason to play smallers since it was basically stat-checking and tail-riding.
Evrima is suffering from balance issues. Herbies have harder diets (this longer grow times) and have issues in combat. Thus carno reigns supreme. Back when oasis was around, there were a lot less carnos because they couldn’t hunt and had terrible hunger drain. A smaller herbie shouldn’t be able to 1v1 a much larger carnito death, but they need a way to run if they can’t fight.

[brittle sail]

But, sure- enjoy the 21/100 servers with robust ecosystems

[covert pagoda]

Definetly.

[thorny lynx]

Devs need to slow down and release a balance patch

Just focus on balance for one update

One major balance patch each update

[burnt bone]

They will, it’s called update 9

[last lily]

In 2028

[covert pagoda]

They'd need to invest something to get there, just like they are now. The difference is that they would contribute to the system instead of having unbalanced ecosystems.

[thorny lynx]

With the way things are going, I don't think players can wait that long. We are getting one update every 6 months.

[covert pagoda]

Why not 100/100 ?

[burnt bone]

I know, it sucks

[brittle sail]

Because with this new system you've sucessfully alienated a large portion of the playerbase that A) enjoys carnivores and B) enjoys PVP

and C) doesn't have the time to inflate their points as a herbivore before going to play what they really want

[covert pagoda]

You personally are not a large portion of the playerbase. And this proposal may even re-mobilize many people who stopped playing due to apex megapacks.

[burnt bone]

I have had #helphypsi since update 2 I believe, and only now it’s getting growth. Which is going to ruin the one playstyle it had left, trolling.

[brittle sail]

And it would still be unbalanced. Because all the people on "earners" will just hide and stay alive so they can "earn"

Then they'll go play what they want and you'll be back at square 0 with casual folks having left to do something else

[last lily]

Metagaming, and working to farm the animal you actually want to play. ...That does sound like a way to shoot the casual playerbase in the back of the head.

[burnt bone]

It needs stuff to make it viable and fun rather than a troll or it’s only escape plan is “hide in bush because I’m smol” anything small can just hide. Hypsi needs climbing and a way to make spit consistent.

[brittle sail]

Like, there are so many more organic ways to address this issue:
Map design that favors smaller animals
Less AI and diet restrictions on carnivores before 50%
Harsher diet restrictions (stego already has to do a cross country jog for 5h) for apexes

A few off the top of my head, all them actually encourage getting good and learning the map/systems vs learning how to hide

[covert pagoda]

If so, they would decrease the efficiency of their earning because they would lose out on every possible award/premium, while also not having perfect diets for better modifiers.

[last lily]

I'd probably farm points too honestly....which would eat up my gametime, spent not having fun, or engaging in many systems.

[brittle sail]

Sails right over your head every time smh

[covert pagoda]

If you do that, you drastically reduce the amount of points you actually earn. The more active you are and the more awards you get, the better your growth.

[last lily]

Except for when you factor in that you're using "earners" who build up points, and if they're easy to produce, and grow, you got yourself an effective farming machine if you know where the diet routes are, and how to stay safe and consistently do it on loop.

[brittle sail]

What about this: the more active you are and the more diet items you eat, the better your growth.

fullstop, no shoddy point system to force you to do anything

[covert pagoda]

That being the point, yes.

[last lily]

All that for a playable you really don't want to play, nor enjoy, just to play what you actually want to play.

[covert pagoda]

That's not going to solve the current issues with megapacks.

[covert pagoda]

That is only a significant issue if you want to play a certain type of apex predator. For most dinosaurs, this wouldn't be an issue.

[last lily]

Ei: that playable becomes seen as a throwaway farming tool, instead of a genuinely fun or interesting experience, with a system that could very well threaten to weaken the structure around it, as well as harm the casual playerbase if not handeled correctly(which could get out of hand very quickly)

Testing would be nice to see it in action.. but then comes the time, money and effort to build a prototype and test it.. Which it may just turn out to be a waste of time.

[covert pagoda]

That is something that every development path could be. And the perception of an earner has no bearings on its actual capabilities in gameplay. Even if deemed a throwaway, it could still be very fun to play.

[brittle sail]

It will if you implement organic rewards and difficulty for groeing larger dinosaurs

[covert pagoda]

No matter how difficult it is, everyone will want to grow large dinosaurs. That is how it is now too. There needs to be a coercive incentive to combat that, and difficulty clearly hasn't done it so far.

[brittle sail]

Correct. Everybody will want to, and they can learn how to. Without begrudgingly playing something else so they can then learn how

[last lily]

Has anything new been said about AI?? And future improvements? AI offers a lot of possibilities, that it's just not being used for due to its limited capacity at the moment.

[covert pagoda]

That's the situation we have right now, and it does lead to megapacks. The point is to solve that issue, not reinforce it.

[covert pagoda]

AI is making the game to easy, imo.

[burnt bone]

Here’s my idea:
Make apexes require a hard system to grow, similar to the one you propose.
That way most people forming mega packs will just chose the next best thing, because that’s what’s happening here. People will choose the most effective methods. Then the apexes can bully out the mega packs and kill stragglers.

[last lily]

It could be used to make it harder if it was actually you know......good.

[covert pagoda]

Neat Idea.

[last lily]

Boar speedboating on a river does not count as a genuine difficulty thing, that's just bad design.

[burnt bone]

Boar now also speedboats on land and homes into the nearest baby.

[last lily]

Funny AI moment.

[brittle sail]

This doesn't defeat megapacks, only delay them and piss off a bunch of people in the process. As long as X populations are uncapped and food is available they will exist

[covert pagoda]

It does defeat megapacks since I can guarantee you that it will take more organisational effort to have enough people have the necessary points at the same time to actually form them than randoms would be capable to muster, while anyone who dies cannot immediately rejoin them.

[brittle sail]

Just wait for your hyperrealism server and we can both be satisfied

Some people want the system you describe, just not many. Servers with rules like this exist, and many more to address megapacks

And they're all quite niche

Maybe save nycta

[last lily]

You can't attack someone 3 Para lengths away from a body.

[covert pagoda]

I do not know if that will suffice to save the game. Though we will first have to deal with the upcoming Human deasaster.

[brittle sail]

Here: let me try putting it in diff terms

what if, to play any dino you had to earn points by playing and surviving on human

more points for fixing radars/doing objectives

Then it was less points for smaller dinos, more points for bigger, most points for apex carnivores

(I don't think that sounds fun, you just end up with a bunch of resentful humans grinding away)

[covert pagoda]

I'd rather humans were not in the game at all. So pass on that. Big pass in fact. The Devs seem to be hellbent on destroying one of the best parts of their game, I.e. that it is a dinosaur survival game, not one of the hundreds of Human survival games.

[brittle sail]

oh. You don't like being made to play something you don't enjoy

in order to afford what you do

https://tenor.com/view/megan-interesting-gif-14176736

[covert pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

You entirely missed the point. And I assume you did it on purpouse ?

[brittle sail]

I think I got it bang on, you're just a bit blinded by love for your own idea

like it or not, humans contribute to the ecosystem - and them being in will address megapacks as they are not contributing to them

So, if you don't want them in and don't want to play them - I think that should be entirely your perogative to not play something you don't want to

[covert pagoda]

You really didn't- The point is that humans are entirely impossible to balance, and that one of the main things that makes the Isle a compelling experience is that it is a game focused on dinosaurs. As a carnivore main, I obviously have no issue with playing dinos other than my main, or else I would not have made that proposal.

Humans however, are an entirely different topic, and something of an outside context issue.

[brittle sail]

You don't have issues playing dinos other than your main, others might. You have issues playing humans, others might not.

[covert pagoda]

And humans inherently do not contribute to the ecosystem, they break it.

[brittle sail]

you don't know that, they're not in it yet lmao

[covert pagoda]

The entire game will be nothing but an issue after the introduction of humans, no matter if anyone likes playing them or not.

[brittle sail]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-interested-reaction-steve-carell-michael-scott-gif-3915584

Seems you don't like being forced to play, or play with, something you don't want to

Me neither

https://tenor.com/view/you-and-i-are-not-so-different-raimi-meme-green-goblin-spiderman-gif-20908369

[covert pagoda]

That has nothing to do with it.

[brittle sail]

"I'd rather humans were not in the game at all. So pass on that. Big pass in fact."

[covert pagoda]

And you cannot see how the statement that something should not be part of the game whatsoever is different from the statement that someone does not want to play something specific ?

[brittle sail]

Seems like a rather strange stance to take when you want to force people to play something, yes.
but don't even want the option of an alternate playstyle in the game at all

[covert pagoda]

They do not have to be in the game yet for us to be able to make predictions as to why they would be an issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-I_IdRwPWU

[brittle sail]

yes, I've seen the video

i don't want to play as or with them either, but I'm not about to force people to play as them because I want a proper population split

[covert pagoda]

Then you should know that you entirely missed the point, because my dislike of humans being considered for the game comes from a position diametrically opposed to my proposal. Humans will break the ecosystem, while my proposal would fix it.

[brittle sail]

it wouldn't but you've got your head so far up your own ass that you think your idea is a golden ticket despite all the flaws people here pointed out

[covert pagoda]

And you even seem to agree.

[brittle sail]

waving them away with "but I don't mind, so neither should anyone else"

[covert pagoda]

There was only one genuine flaw that was pointed out, and I incorporated a solution to it in the proposal.

[covert pagoda]

Have you also seen this video, btw ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj7JzmEf-_c

[barren crater]

I did dislike humans previously, but now I like the idea of them regulating the apex population. So add them

[empty epoch]

I've always liked the idea of Humans.
It's an enticing promised aspect of the game which adds to the horror aspect.

I'm just waiting to see how the devs truly play out Humans in the long run

[barren crater]

Idk about balance, but I do hope they have missions to regulate overabundant apexes (Again, idk if they would or should do this)

[empty epoch]

Yes

[proud coral]

Eehhh.... I'm not too keen on the idea of encouraging hunting for Mercs.

[empty epoch]

depends on lore for me

[proud coral]

P e r h a p s

[barren crater]

I think it's fine if there is a lot of big boys

[proud coral]

Plus you gotta realize there's not too much something like a Rex could do to a group of humans with good guns.

Run at em? Gunned down.

Run away? They just follow.

Then again, it all depends on how guns are made I guess..... we'll see 🪱

[barren crater]

I see the apexes being screwed against mercs the most- which is fine

Biased take, I know

[proud coral]

Well yeah, they'll be big targets I just don't want them to be helpless is all. No situation of "if you're spotted, just tab out"

But humans (with decent weapons) should still be something you don't just waltz towards of course

[barren crater]

I think if an apex is spotted in the open plains, it's bad for them (pure speculation)

[proud coral]

Well that depends on the Apex I'd say. Like a Rex prolly has no business anyways being there outside of like.....smaller Sauropods maybe

[barren crater]

Poor stego

[proud coral]

[barren crater]

But yeah, I see apexes and the really small dinos having a really bad matchup against humans, while utah + sized to about idk acro? doing well against humans due to speed + decent health

[proud coral]

Troodon will prolly be a menace to them as well

[barren crater]

Well I guess velo and troodon could be well

[proud coral]

[barren crater]

Yeah

But overall, I do like the idea of mercs regulating overabundant species

It's not like it will be impossible for them to fight back either

[proud coral]

Smalls are governed by mids, mids are governed by apexes, apexes are governed by humans, humans are governed by smalls

CIIIRCLE OF LIIIIIFE

https://c.tenor.com/kKXGmQRskKoAAAAM/circleoflife-lion.gif

[limber hull]

idk about apexes being governed by humans

that sounds kinda awful for apexes

[barren crater]

True, reasonable take. However, I want them to suffer 🥺

[limber hull]

apexes?

[barren crater]

Yes

[limber hull]

ehh

i mean, there's suffering then there's being utterly bullshitted

apexes should not have it easy

[barren crater]

My take on this is biased. Don't expect reason from me

[limber hull]

but they shouldn't have their primary threat be being domed across the world by a sniper

[barren crater]

Depends how fast the big bois are. Humans are just slower than stego or a bit faster

[limber hull]

they'll have vehicles too

[barren crater]

Yeah, but can you shoot from vehicles. If so, I can see them being annoying for large, slow dinos to deal with

[limber hull]

why couldn't you shoot from vehicles?

at least, if you're in the passenger seat

[barren crater]

Idk. Logically makes sense- but balance wise

[limber hull]

honestly, balance-wise, i'd rather apexes just don't fear humans. Mercs being seen as a "threat" beyond the fact that they have big guns, to the point that an animal actively flees mercs, seems bad to me

Like, yes, a hypsi being skittish around a merc seems reasonable

[barren crater]

Fair. It just depends on their weaponry and vehicles. Depending on how good they are, they might just make a rex run

[limber hull]

but that'd be utter shit imho

because a rex would be FUCKED if a human posed enough of a threat to make it run

humans have range, vehicles and tons of other equipment

if there is ever a balance point where human > rex, then it's not going to be like a trike v rex fight, where it falls on player skill and other circumstance like environment

it'll be a human killing a rex and a rex being helpless

the rex can't run, it can't hide, it can't fight back, it'll be chipped to death helplessly

[barren crater]

I mean, even if the weapons are "weak" that will happen

[limber hull]

not if you design the game well. The mercs were advertised to be like tarkov, which means at some point, your ammo will run out

the issue arises if weapons reach a critical point where the ammo cost is low enough to warrant an easy dispatch of an apex animal

[barren crater]

I guess. I don't have much else to add since we don't know much on what we'll get

[proud coral]

[barren crater]

I wish we knew more

At least some weapon designs

[last lily]

Anyone remember back in PC where you could tail ride Tyrants by staying behind them and shooting them to death? Or just staying on their back flanks.

That'd suck to have happen in the Isle.

[ashen wasp]

but what if... an apex is STRIPED in the open plains???

[barren crater]

[limber hull]

i mean, that isnt fair to plains-based apexes like stego

also makes for a bland ecosystem when all the apexes are cowering in the trees so they dont get insta-sniped

[barren crater]

True, but that's the thing. It's slow and will be dealing with guns of an unknown magnitude Maybe it tanks all the shots, maybe it doesn't idk

and idk about snipers, but they're not the only type of gun to probably hurt apexes

[limber hull]

i mean, shotguns could, but I'm fine with shotguns because then you need to walk into death range

[covert pagoda]

This is my fear.

[limber hull]

sniper rifles are literally always a bad idea for this game imho

[covert pagoda]

Humans in general are

[limber hull]

hard disagree with that

humans can be amazing for this game

[covert pagoda]

I'm going to pretend I didn't read that

[limber hull]

why

humans have so much potential, the beta where they added them was so fucking good

the core issue with humans is the potential to have stupid broken and annoying weapons

however, the devs have every power to just not add high-power modern-day snipers

[last lily]

Who needs weapons when you can beat a Juvi utah to death Chicago style.

[limber hull]

that was fun

[last lily]

Humans add both chaos, horror and lore to the game. Chaos because there's no better way to fuck around than a bunch of hairless apes having no idea what the hell they're doing.

[limber hull]

i genuinely want humans to be as underpowered as they can possibly make them. I want all the cards stacked against them, make it a horrifying experience where you can get fucking shredded for mistakes

[last lily]

As long as guns don't feel like they're shooting nerf darts, while still having counter play. I still kinda feel it weird from a lore perspective as to why Merc's come in with shit guns...you'd think the company would provide them weapons and shit.

[limber hull]

playing beta human was funny when you were killing juvis, but the adult carnos and utahs were fucking nightmares

[burnt bone]

i cant wait to go pachy and bash people lmao

imagine chillin in a building and you just hear a pachy bashing down your door

[last lily]

Tribals I don't see that issue, because well.. they're locals, they can just build and go from there. Merc's are hired arms and what not. Why do you hire a bunch of guys, send them to a dinosaur island with only a knife and a pistol with some ammo.

[limber hull]

nah dude, it's implied the mercs are just kinda made and thus expendable. No need to arm your suicide troopers if you can just make more

[last lily]

Is Jeff Bezsos behind this operation??

[limber hull]

The mercs are literally on the "asset selection" screen, implying that they are also genetically reproducible entities like how the dinos and tribals are

[last lily]

We don't make the economy for war, we're just suppliers.

[limber hull]

also to balance out guns, i'd just make them

• low on ammo
• loud as fuck
• generally low-moderate range, avoiding high-range/high-power weapons like sniper rifles

shotguns should be some of the best weapons, with the highest burst damage

However, you have to get into the danger zone of the animal to best utilise, thus making it primarily defensive

[last lily]

I'd be concerned with the case of making ammo TOO RARE, to the point where it gets annoying, or frustrating(but that's probably easy to fix/resolve).

Is this assuming accurate shotgun range, or game shotgun logic?

[limber hull]

I mean, accurate shotgun range is fine, because shotguns still generally only work super-effectively on smaller creatures at further range, like duckhunting

Bears can fucking tank shotguns and keep moving

Because they are BEARS

[last lily]

Bears are absolute units

I don't like the idea of a Utahraptor tanking shotgun shells point blank though... especially OUR utahraptor.

[limber hull]

A shotgun should be treated in this game like how a bear is treated, to an extreme. Giant-ass massive fatty animal should just fucking take it and get significantly more pissed. Shoot a carno, you're not getting a dead carno, you're getting a PISSED carno

[last lily]

I love him.

[limber hull]

Well utah getting one-shot to the head with a shotgun doesn't sound entirely unfair

Because that would require you to somehow land a headshot moments before your life is turned to forfeit

Very much a live or die situation

[last lily]

Have they said anything about armor, or nah? It wouldn't do much to stop large predators, but it'd give an advantage against smaller predators and also other humans..

Gotta keep those kids off my lawn.

[limber hull]

Ankys should literally just not care about shotguns btw lmao

Like, he just looks at you with a disappointed face and keeps goin

[last lily]

Anky shouldn't care about a lot of things if they make it actually behave and function like an anky, and not a watered down one.

[limber hull]

I'd honestly prefer a gillies suit to armour. Let me blend with the bushes for my sneaky stealthy plans

[last lily]

Utah pounce: nah. Troodon's? Sit down and ignore. Shotgun? What was that? Allo? Keep trying. Carno? Hello stranger.

I'd be okay with ballistics vests and the armor they had A LONG TIME AGO( gas mask, armor combo sort of deal). Looked visually cool and I'm a sucker for gas masks. Mild damage reductions but a carno will still wreck you, and you don't blend in as well as you would with gillie suits.

[limber hull]

If anky's entire gimmick isn't "90% of the roster literally cannot touch upon my divine form and if they try I will turn their entire skeletal system to past tense", I will be mad.

[last lily]

Imagine making Anky skinny and not a chunky boy. Just so that the slow animal can be faster... when it already can't escape predators to begin with.

[limber hull]

Even spino and giga should reconsider anky lmao

[last lily]

Anky headshotting a Rex, as unlikely as it is, should be terrifying.

[limber hull]

I'd honestly just make anky have the weakness of "literally so fucking slow" and "sinks like a goddamn rock if forced to swim"

[last lily]

you have to BITE DOWN, and willingly put yourself in headshot range.

Which is another reason to leave Dwaynekylosaurus the Rock Johnson alone