So you eat while you kill
#general-feedback-discussion
sage helm
jovial blade
Well it makes sense to not put them as real humans
Humans are slow compared to din
Dinos
We would get run down by almost every dino
sage helm
We should probably head over to #isle-lore-theories
sage helm
@flint rune Could you perhaps explain in a little more detail what elders would be
the pictures dont show up well
or at least for me they dont
sage helm
No problem lol
jovial blade
We really need some pov for sure
That shit is annoying having to poke your body out of trees or bushes to see
sage helm
Lol
glass blaze
Yeah even if it isn't first-person exactly, a top-of-the-head or side-of-the-head camera really is needed to help with ambushing from foliage.
blazing charm
Gonna be honest, kinda feel like only Herbivores should get elders.
jovial blade
Why
blazing charm
Carnivores kinda already have strains, and Herbivores are in need of some kind of endgame.
coarse shell
strains on herbs would make no sense so
paper oriole
Elder is nice but it would be a crappy pair with the strains
blazing charm
Oh I am not saying Elders are the EQUIVALENT to strains
coarse shell
i'm talking about how it lives lol
blazing charm
Like, it would still be some kind of end game, is what I am saying.
paper oriole
So herbivores will be left behind and be even more uncommon to see
jovial blade
Or even eating trees
mental sleet
Jaffad, we don't know if all the carnivores will get strains
coarse shell
its not that i dont want herbi strains or elders... its just that if you have a real strain of it it'd survive pretty easily
mental sleet
so you can't really argue they are an equivalent endgame
jovial blade
Lowley rather that elder system then having hypos in game
Hypo looks cool and all but that will fuck everything up
blazing charm
@mental sleet I never said anything about all Herbivores getting elders, either.
jovial blade
Elders aren't dramatically changed and mutated and still can be killed
mental sleet
that would be a bad thing.
paper oriole
Yeah and it is only available to ine faction
mental sleet
if one has elder, the others should as well.
jovial blade
All species should have elder stage in thhe end
paper oriole
Herbivores get nothing to counter it from what i know, or am i missi g something
mental sleet
you aren't meant to counter a strain, it dies on its own.
jovial blade
Exactly which si why I would prefer elder
Will hypo be a setting that you can turn off?
mental sleet
probably
mental sleet
though even with the setting on, the change you'll be seeing one is close to null
jovial blade
My bet is most server will have it off
mental sleet
outside of devs.
glass blaze
I'd rather herbivores go back to being the game's easy-mode like they were during progression, and focus on giving the endgame stuff to carnivores.
jovial blade
I mean herbs is pretty easy
glass blaze
Just bring back progression plants and they're pretty much good to go.
mental sleet
no
nonononono
progression plants were by far the most disgusting thing herbivores had.
jovial blade
I didn't play back in progression
mental sleet
and just shoving them aside as the ''easy mode'' dinosaurs was only a possibility when the game first came out.
mental sleet
they allowed herbivores to progress up the tier tree
at an insane speed
and when they glitched, you could instantly get what was usually a 5-6 hour animal
jovial blade
oh..
glass blaze
You're exaggerating, MuliDavid.
mental sleet
I am not, I played during progression I know what those plants brought to the game and it was nothing good.
glass blaze
Yes, they did get glitched from time to time, but under normal circumstances they shaved off a balanced amount of time.
jovial blade
I dont see much on how to make herb game play better
Maybe a few tweaks in mechanics
Giving them more freedom to do things
mental sleet
there's a bunch of things you can do.
jovial blade
Suggest it
mental sleet
from nesting improvements to their dedicated diets.
Oh I have.
you can look up a google doc me and watt wrote that involved herbivore diets.
blazing charm
While David is right that when Prog plants went wrong, They went really wrong.
Progression plants aren't the way to go, although perhaps some other kind of rare plant could be an interesting incentive?
glass blaze
I'm just saying, I'd personally rather limit endgame stuff to the carnivores and make herbivores the easy mode again.
Short of mutating them into carnivorous strains, there really isn't much you can add to them that changes the cycle of gameplay for the herbivores.
blazing charm
I feel like making both factions interesting in their own unique ways is more preferable than just having one be interesting, and the other easy
glass blaze
(In a perfect world, I wouldn't have made them playable to begin with.)
blazing charm
Took the words right out of my mouth.
mental sleet
Too late for that, unfortunately.
blazing charm
Mhm.
glass blaze
I mean if you can think of a way to make herbivores as interesting as carnivores, I'm all for it. but again, short of adding strains that turn them carnivorous, I don't see how you can shake up the gameplay cycle to accomplish that.
An elder herbivore is still ultimately a walking meatbag forever in search of a new bush to hide in.
flint rune
Dondie: {makes all hebivors AI}
glass blaze
So my solution is to discard that as a lost cause, turn them into a faction of Tutorialsaurus, and focus on making the other three factions more interesting and challenging.
mental sleet
To me, that is not an option, it's far too late.
glass blaze
Okay, then what is your solution to the walking meatbag problem?
mental sleet
What is the walking meatbag problem again ?
glass blaze
How do you shake up the herbivore gameplay cycle from the current cycle of "eat bushes, migrate to new bushes, repeat."
mental sleet
The easiest place to begin is at the ''eat bushes'' portion
glass blaze
If they had a justifiable reason to seek out conflict with another faction, maybe that could shake it up.
Actually now you've got me thinking.
mental sleet
have different types of food options for herbivores, some specific, other generalistic
have the herbivores have to put effort into finding their own ''specific'' food sources and compete with others for the ''generalistic'' ones
that's aproximately what was written in the google doc.
glass blaze
What if tribals used herbivore food sources for crafting, and the two factions were forced to come to blows competing for that resource?
mental sleet
That's another possibility.
jovial blade
Would be cool if factions had a relationship aswell
Instead of jsut being enemies
I'll leave that there for anyone who wants to make assumptions and suggestions
flint rune
I think I might of triggered some peeps idk XD
wintry cipher
You will see plenty of people willing being mounts for tribals once they come out so that's not something needed to be encouraged
versed blaze
@flint rune not gonna happen.....
flint rune
Lol it was just a suggestion ^^
versed blaze
Admins need their tools. ;). And that is a very important one.
violet magnet
you can fly around the map and find secrets in replays too, tho
much easier than aimlessly wandering the map
@glass blaze "If [herbivores] had a justifiable reason to seek out conflict with another faction, maybe that could shake it up."
Carnivores seek out conflict with herbivores, so make the herbivores able to actually defend themselves when a carnivore tries to hunt them
jovial blade
They can though
Herbs actively seeking carnis isn't that fun you kill something and it's over you dont eat it nothimg
violet magnet
not solo they can't
violet magnet
where did i say that
jovial blade
You are implying iy
violet magnet
i want herbis to have a fighting chance solo, yeah 🤷
glass blaze
They already do, for the most part.
jovial blade
They do but if you get caught by a pack you cant expect to defend yourself that well
violet magnet
not if they're up against a big pack of carnivores, but if it's 1v1 then they shouldn't just be easy food
glass blaze
The issue currently has more to do with the population imbalance than any practical issue with the herbivores.
jovial blade
Going for low tier herbs
Then yes they are just food
If you're low tier herb just run
Use speed and stealth
violet magnet
thee's a population imbalance because herbs aren't popular to play because they're underpowered
mental sleet
^
jovial blade
You eat bushes migrate to more bushes maybe have kids and defend them for a while and end up dying because you wanted to go fight a apex or you got hunted
glass blaze
If you made herbivores strong enough to solo groups of large carnivores (and they did used to be), you would see a reversal of the current problem. Herbivores would rule and the carnivore minority would be forced to eat AI.
jovial blade
When ever I play herb once I reach adult I get super bored so I just go off looking for a fight
jovial blade
You're implying it
violet magnet
no i'm not 
jovial blade
Because trike and all that aren't underpowered so I'm guessing you mean the lower tiers
lilac swallow
It seems that being able to def is the same than murdering carni groups
violet magnet
"i want herbis to have a fighting chance solo"
"not if they're up against a big pack of carnivores, but if it's 1v1 then they shouldn't just be easy food"
glass blaze
Your argument for herbs being underpowered was literally "they can't defend from groups of carnis."
jovial blade
^
glass blaze
1-on-1 they already do fine.
jovial blade
^
glass blaze
YES IT WAS
violet magnet
"i want herbis to have a fighting chance solo"
"not if they're up against a big pack of carnivores, but if it's 1v1 then they shouldn't just be easy food"
glass blaze
Sargon The GrapeToday at 11:09 AM
They already do, for the most part.
MonkizuToday at 11:09 AM
They do but if you get caught by a pack you cant expect to defend yourself that well
grievousToday at 11:10 AM
not if they're up against a big pack of carnivores, but if it's 1v1 then they shouldn't just be easy food
glass blaze
I'm talking to a brick wall.
violet magnet
same
glass blaze
Herbivores solo fine, mostly. The issue is population, nothing more. Make herbivores more interesting and the problem fixes itself.
jovial blade
Grievous which herbs are you talking about
What herbs do you think struggle in 1v1s and vs which dinos
lilac swallow
Definitely trike (vs other apexes) and pachy (vs well everithing)
violet magnet
pretty much every one except trike, maia, and maybe para, in fights against other dinos in their tier
maia can just run
para cannot run and struggles to defend
trike can clobber smaller things but GETS clobbered by apexes
lilac swallow
With a Kick that has ton of laggs and has to be used standing still
jovial blade
So it can
lilac swallow
Yeah but so an allo one shots dryo but doesnt need to stop running to bite
jovial blade
Yes?
spiral pond
Actually allo will win most of the times against para
Since allo can always pull out
Has bleed
Heals super fast
Is the same speed
Has ambush
sage helm
Wait were they saying allo should stop walking to bite
spiral pond
Nah
They are pointing out that para needs to stand still to kill dilo, while allo can still move around while biting and killing dryo at the same time
sage helm
Oh
I mean
A para can move and kill a dryo too
With the head hit
Cause dryos are weak
Utah gallis and dilos are the only things that cant kill a dryo in one hit with primary attack
glass blaze
Para is much weaker offensively when moving, and it needs to move in order to hit something like a raptor or dilo. Allo has neither of these problems.
Although while I haven't played para that much lately, I'm pretty sure it has enough of a weight advantage on those two that its headbutt should be sufficient.
unborn quail
It does, which was the old issue with para being faster than both
It could run down Allo and dilo and effectively headbut them to death
glass blaze
I was talking about Utah and Dilo, but yeah.
unborn quail
Ah, my mistake
spiral pond
Still think a para might need a few little tweaks
Not sprint speed
But trot speed instead
unborn quail
Para is generally in a fine place, in the end it just comes down to the hit boxes not being buggy
Pretty sure being able to three shot allo and five shot sucho with a kick is fine for an animal who should be running away to begin with
Granted if Allo has the distance then that's not an option.
candid haven
I see a lot of the "elder dino" Ideas and makes me think- how would an old dino be stronger than a prime adult? Simple- they wouldn't be. I know this game isn't full accurate with it's dinos (Hypos I mean come on). Herbi's megapack as much as they can and so do carnis when the server allows it. There is no need for stronger herbis or carnis. If anything the elder dinos would be slower, and weaker in general. There would be no way an old dino could take a dino in it's prime. While I think the looks of elder dinos could be distinct and show your progress, they should probably be weaker than a regular adult- able to be taken down by smaller dinos cause they won't have the health they would have as a prime adult. Every animal in existence including us as humans, get weaker in old age, we have less energy and are more frail in general. Hell wolf pack leaders hold on to their position as long as they can but once age takes effect, a younger wolf can beat it- even if the old wolf is seasoned in fights versus the young one. There has to be some sort of struggle- I think- in order to reach your hypo progression. It's too easy to sustain yourself with a pack behind you, and a pack is far stronger than a loner. That and with every known creature to exist, predator and prey alike, once it's old it doesn't get very far, can't go up against an adult in it's prime that goes up for it's territory, and smaller predators make it their mission to target those weaker links in the chain- ei babies or elders. Elders wouldn't be stronger, if anything they de-progress and eventually get to the point that they give up. If elders are inputted I hope they are weaker than prime dino's, I hope it makes the struggle for hypo real and if you manage to keep that old dino for a while then you get a hypo (When it's in the game however they input it IF they input it as a dino players can be)
Makes it a lot more difficult for people as a surviving adult.
flint rune
I agree fully, I didn't really make the elder suggestion to make elders stronger than the young adults, I only made it because it would be a bit more realistic and hard core. And For the obvious wounds idea. Nothing has a beginning without an end after all.
light oak
@flint rune realistic and hardcore are not concepts that the isle takes srly. Every last major change has been for the sake of the kids that qq over suggestions. Hunger nerf for apex, night shorter and brighter, ridiculous stats modifications, you can't bleed yo death anymore, etc.
So don't have high expectations, the isle is ruled by normie kids nowadays.
candid haven
The struggle could be real fun or a total nightmare for people. I like to think that if dondi ever does it- he makes it where the elder steadily loses it's ability to fight back- if you get to the point your dino collapses on you then you're at the final stage and if hypos are a thing they can get to maybe they have to make a journey to something (Say they conveniently die near a testing facility) it gives you a prompt that your dino is going to be taken and used for expirements and you get a gamble- based on how you lived your life is what you get as your next strain- cause the scientists made the other strains- but they probably need an adult dino to test it out on right?
sage helm
Honestly
We all remember when bleed was a scary concept
But since bleeders are usually the weaker dinos now its just kill them and sit down
candid haven
anything that is new in a game is scary- hell look at when ark made the aberration or extinction map - everyone was terrified at first but that is a different game. I mean I have taken out a rex with a carno (No alt turn aids a lot of dinos with their hunting) But people hate not having alt turn cause it's a big danger for everyone
look at a cliff can't turn you're done in life
sage helm
But alt turn isnt like these changes
light oak
Thats ridiculous, theres plenty of full servers with no alt turn
sage helm
Not for long
candid haven
True cause most people who get on those servers are aware there isn't alt turn so they steer clear of putting themselves in danger lol
candid haven
many just turn gamma up on their computer
light oak
I hit the auto adjustment of my monitor and i can see as it is daylight
light oak
I mean, is ridiculous
sage helm
That shouldnt be the case
The game is on easy mode rn tbh
You dont have to worry about finding an ai because they spawn when you get hungry
half the night is clear enough to see without nv
Bleed isnt a big deal as long as you can kill the dino first
and sit down
light oak
I can remember the first time i Saw the head of a Trex coming out of the pitch dark night in this game and it was awesome. No pitch of sounds nor flashy images, just fear...
sage helm
There was a point where you would back off because you knew your bleed was getting too much to handle but now its if your enemy is low face tank em and sit down
candid haven
I mean it can be if the bleeder is smart enough to do the intended gorilla tactics for said dino
sage helm
Exactly mck
candid haven
The person bleeding sits thinking they are clear then the bleeder does another hit
sage helm
The thing is with giga a rex just face tanks it and sits down because giga cant use gorilla tactic
And dilo is slower than many creatures so it gets ran down
candid haven
Well don't get in front of it's mouth
sage helm
You can literally say that for any dino
light oak
I never bought that 1v1 scenes, I mean this a game where pack and herds are meta. Thats also why i don't like alt turn, it makes the game a weight competition, and in the other hand u just hear "utah assriding Rex"...
sage helm
Exactly
candid haven
Yeah that is what bleeders are supposed to do- hit n run and hope you don't get bit in the meantime
sage helm
How is it supposed to run when it is slower than the thing it is fighting
candid haven
That is what elders would be in for lol
Target an elder dino- a weaker dino as would most predators
find the weak link
Don't be dumb and face something that can easily take you
Raptors would normally wear down an old, young or sick dino at it's legs till it is forced down
many predators, while not doing the same as raptors, would still target the animal they can take versus running head on into another primed animal
Animals only attack others they know can kill them if they really need to otherwise they mind their own business
You don't see bears getting attack by a pack of wolves or even seperate wolf packs all out fighting unless for territory or food
sage helm
So... you dont see things fighting for fun? yea thats kinda self explanatory
candid haven
Well its that players problem if they go for something they can't face
sage helm
Thats not what we are saying is an issue
The three issues I have right now:
- The night. Its too easy now that the night is brighter and people can use gamma to change the brightness. Bring back the old night, the fear factor of the game. Its supposed to be horror right?
- The ai. Apexes can survive off them. Perhaps larger ai or just ai that fight back when you are juvi stage would help cut down on this. I know larger ai are planned in the future which should help.
- Bleed used to be scary. Now you can kill the usually not as buff bleeder and sit down without worrying about bleed. While hit and run tactics would be helpful it is hard since bleeders are typically slower such as giga or dilo.
Make bleed kill you when you are sitting again
lilac swallow
"dilo is slower than many creatures so It gets ran down" really? Dilo is currently the 5 fastest dino, and the dinos who are faster, all except Maia arent a menace to dilos
- Pitch black night arent scary, just boring because you cant do nothing but siting on a bush
- Ais do needs a change
- Old bleed was a "both dino dies" mechanich whats the point of wining a fight if you end dying?
candid haven
giga isn't slower than rex though? or least I was thought. Dilo's were never super fast, they are night creatures. Simple problem solving for adults surviving on ai - don't have ai spawn for adults- sucks but if the small ai they can eat in one bite spawn for them then they can survive- just take that ability out till larger ai are inputted that can fight back. The night is something dondi will fix I am sure of it. He is probably still working on a way to get a darker night to stay (maybe coding on the old nights went wonky)
Bleeders shouldn't be able to face tank and survive. These dinos have different strengths if played properly they can deal a lot of damage
glass blaze
I don't know Giga's ambush modifier, but it only runs at 30 kph compared to Rex's 33. So it is slower. On the other hand, Rex can only run for about 30 seconds and doesn't regenerate stamina while standing.
candid haven
ahh thank you
candid haven
and hey if people try to cheese the ai spawns (Like say dondi does take out ai spawn for adults) and people have a juvi on hand to spawn ai in for survival, give the adults like a despawning mechanic where if the adult goes to hunt the small ai for easy food, they just poof away, no food for adult! Or make it where they can't eat certain bodies when they get big enough (Sort of like with the corpses but your dino is like "that isn't even a snack no thanks, that food is for your young")
sage helm
That would make adults unable to hunt for juvis tho
Cause some juvis are slower than ai
Good idea tho
candid haven
Juvis should be able to take the smaller ai on for themselves
sage helm
They can take them on yea but usually get out ran
Idk
its a tricky balance but I did prefer the way it was before
candid haven
Well then it shouldn't be a good dino then huh? Wild animals need to learn to hunt for themselves at some point- and most times parents lose their children to other predators or starvation anyways
candid haven
What? Have you never heard of adult predators losing their young to starving or other predators?
sage helm
juvi utah gets out ran by ai
Yea
but that has nothing to do with ai
You keep bringing up points that have nothing to do with the current situation
sage helm
Whatever I am done arguing at this point its just pointless
The main point is that the game feels too easy right now
candid haven
So taking out ai for adults wouldn't make life hard? Darn my bad
carrying would fix the need for hunting for young- bring food back
Animals teach their young to hunt at some point- then go their separate ways usually, unless it's a pack animal. Small dinos could keep their ai spawns, if that makes life easier for them but really life wouldn't be that easy. That ava would hurt a utah if it could fight back which would be awesome lol
candid haven
yeah but for the apexes those small ai would be easy regardless
sage helm
I think thats why they are adding in acro
which still wouldnt be too hard of a fight
but is better than nothing lol
candid haven
Acro can take an apex if it gets the first hits in- even dondi has said that
your afk apexes would be in trouble
lilac swallow
The problem with ai is that it literally spanws at the side of hungry carnis, it should be ai, but it should be roaming the map not spawning to make you dont starve
candid haven
I agree with it too just I think dondi made it like that so people don't complain so much lol
"Can't find any food wtf dondi" much complaining follows lol
At least they are random spawns around you not just set spots
lilac swallow
We need ai so weaker carnis such as juvies or fresh adult utahs can eat without waiting for the casuality of finding a Guy playing a dryo, but at the same time these juvies should search for that ai instead of sitting an waiting for It to spawn
sage helm
I would love to see wandering ai
candid haven
I mean we still hear the stories of utahs taking out rexes without alt turn- utahs usually could take out larger animals than themselves via their pounce and pack hunting tactics. Don't have to wait for a player that is you size, just the right hunting maneuvers
I do agree that we should be looking for the ai not waiting though
onyx stump
Who wants to play an older weaker dinosaur when literally you did nothing wrong? This Elder dinosaur idea sounds bad. If you want dinosaurs to become weaker due to heavy damage from past combat, that's fine but the game doesn't need new fan fiction models for dinosaurs and doesn't need a degrading system for old dinosaurs. It'll just add another layer to the mess that is balancing in this game.
candid haven
People won't want to play an older dino you're right- but if it helps get to the next level (Again that is if hypos get into progression) then they will. It's a harder life cause, well you're old. These old dinos would help the smaller dino players in their lifestyle (Like how any predator would target a slower weaker adult rather than a prime adult) and they would play it if it looked pretty and gave them some bragging rights that they made it to elder
No player would do anything wrong to attain the elder- it's their choice to progress of course, and maybe some will be like "Hey I am good with this creature maybe I can handle the elder's degradation if I get to get something out of it"
It's very easy not to click that progression button after all- I have seen many people who stay juvi's for pure cute/cuddliness alone
In my opinion it'd help the balance of the game, people would see that weaker elder and think, "Man that'd give me WAY more food than a baby" and they'd try for it- not saying they'd win. An old dino can still kill small dinos with straight attacks
You'd probably hear less complaints about baby killers around if there is an elder they can eat
Cheetahs are way smaller than those wildebeast they take on- so they go for the weakest in the pack- they say utahs did much of the same thing just far smarter about it
And if you're thinking about all the little dinos that would suck as elders- just don't click the progression button- you have to click it to go from juvi to sub, because you mature into mating and your dinos adult patterns, elders would look different to adults, be different than adults, so it'd probably be a click worthy progression- and well you don't have to click that
Elders could have a more defined pattern than the original, look frail, have battle scars and longer or even broken horns (Cause a trike with a broken horn would just look gnarly!) longer/ cracked claws from being too tired to fully maintain it's full health look, and would add to the realism that has people immersed in the game. It'd be amazing to see some packs of different colored dinos walking by and then waddling at the back or in the middle are those distinct, battle worn animals that just give you that sense of- oh yeah he lived that long?? He must have been amazing in his prime
Those elders would feel accomplished for reaching that age, while at the same time terrified at the aspect of being a prime target now. And people can always survive to that point then just get renested- isn't that hard and "Oh man what about all that time it'll take to get back to adult?" Well then don't click the button to begin with- wait to see others who have
onyx stump
That's a silly argument "Add a downgrade as an upgrade, but make it optional, because some people might like it".
I'll stand by my argument that the much better way to punish older players is giving them permanent weaker stats when they recover from a big fight, like a limp in their run that slows them down or slower health/stamina regeneration, or lower health/damage. This would probably solve a lot of the issues in regards to face tanking and giving an advantage to new/smart players while crippling older/dumber ones. The key difference is that this wouldn't require whole new models and a backwards mentality to game design.
Adding an optional, older, weaker dinosaur downgrade upgrade to the game won't add anything other than to magnify roleplay for some of the people in this community.
mental sleet
love the picture btw
onyx stump
ty
candid haven
So what I just read simplified is- force the older players to get weaker regardless. I mean yeah that could be a good thing basically the same thing you just don't get that elder status feel. lol So give it a permanent limp and less health and people will just be like - oh my health, oh no I am super slow now- renest me plss. Same thing just more a forced downgrade eventually rather than a choice downgrade lol
lethal sparrow
There's always hte option of having the elderly dinosaurs be a sidegrade.
candid haven
That was what I was saying- you don't have to click the button
If you see a button - you don't have to click it XD
lethal sparrow
Generally slower, more ungainly, tougher soft stats like heal rate. But they're crotchety sons of bitches with a lot of calluses and some strength.
Crocodilians don't get weaker as they age if I remember right, they just starve. It's in the works for Deinosuchus as a mechanic to have that kind of endless growth, furthermore. I don't see why you can't have a similar ethic for dinosaurs, albeit not literally endless.
Lobsters have a similar deal where they keep molting indefinitely insofar as they can feed themselves and the strain doesn't overtake their strength, which is how you get the overblown 'lobsters are immortal' articles.
onyx stump
"solve a lot of the issues in regards to face tanking and giving an advantage to new/smart players while crippling older/dumber ones" I'm targeting dumber players that want to face tank and eventually older players that get into bad fights. This mechanic would reward smart and new players, players that don't get heavily damaged in fights. The mechanic you're suggesting is optional and preys on new players.
lethal sparrow
I think the idea of taking maluses for taking too much damage all at once is a good idea. I don't think the 'elderly' stage should be a net malus if the player avoids suffering such wounds, but I will disagree entirely on the notion of it being optional.
Frankly, once the recode is done and growth stage transitions are made less awkward/glitchy/stat inconsistent with one another, growth should be a forced, non-optional transition. Model pops to the next one once you hit 1.0 growth, at equivalent scale. That way, awkward old age is something everyone has to learn to work with if they want to keep going with their favored species.
onyx stump
Would you like to upgrade a weapon to lower its stats in Elderscrolls or Dark Souls? If you want weapons to get weaker over time, lowering the stats while upgrading them is not the way you do it. Have it lose durability from battles or swinging it on rocks/walls is fine. It rewards players for hitting their target and punishes players that swing wildly.
It's called game design. There's good and bad ways of doing things. This elder thing is a bad way.
Just wait for a mod, I'm sure some roleplayer will get your old dinos in.
lethal sparrow
Nonsense. It's an interesting sidegrade if you follow Emily Stepp's actual art, which has older specimens become mean, knobbly sons of bitches, less suitable to pursuit predation or keeping up with a herd at full tilt, but great at bullying competitors & knocking predators around.
More brute strength & weight, more survival stat needs and less freedom of movement.
onyx stump
I don't think it'll add as much as you think it will.
lethal sparrow
It wouldn't be the highest priority, we're missing plenty of subadult stages and have some dinos left to get ingame, but it would by no means be a bad addition to have an elder/super-adult stage at some point.
onyx stump
A lot of things wouldn't be a bad addition to the game if implemented correctly, but should they add grandpa and grandma dinosaurs models into the game with grandpa and grandma dinosaur stats for every dinosaur!? Or could they accomplish the same feeling of "oldness" with a texture swap when your dinosaur gets hurt?
lethal sparrow
Former when resources are available, latter as a semi stand-in.
They are already adding stat swaps with far more substantial model changes in the form of the strains. A sculpt change largely using the current adult models & some texture fiddling is less involved than adding a new sculpt with split maws, weird xenomorph features, or dozens of spines & angular plates onto the same basic skeleton.
onyx stump
I'm advocating for dinosaurs getting permanent worse stats when they recover from serious injuries, so why not just give them a permanent textures to signify that this dinosaur is weaker?... and you can pretend that you're the old grandpa of a dinosaur herd
The strains are completely different from "elders"
lethal sparrow
Because that's a long-term wounding/maiming mechanic. It is attendant to, but distinct from, old bull dinosaurs with larger, more arthritic frames than current prime age adults.
One's a way to punish bad play, with recovery from long term wounds being easier at early age, and more or less permanent towards the end of the life cycle. The other is an additional life cycle stage that adds an interesting dynamic.
Beside that, as far as basic principle, no, strains are not 'completely different.' They have unique abilities and some pretty sharp stat increases, but they're still a form of modelswap for differing stats. My point regarding them is that strains are more strenuous to put in, but we're still getting three per each top of class member of the old Progression dinosaur trees.
That'd be Spino, Giga, Rex, and Utahraptor. Quetz is also getting strains if I'm not mistaken. That's fifteen almost completely fresh sculpts that can only use the basic skeletal rigging & animation set of their originals, if even that much.
The effort spent to do Elder/Super-Adult remodeling of the current stages of survival dinosaurs wouldn't even be more jobs than that, though a number of those strains are now complete; we have fifteen survival dinos.
The jobs themselves would be substantially easier. Not quite as easy as stretching Rexes' lips to make a Tarbosaurus as a joke about palette swaps. But not much harder. Much easier than the Strains.
I'd go as far as saying it'd be a little easier than figuring out the right mix of neotenic features for juveniles & subadults, in fact. You're adding fat/muscle bulk, calluses, and tweaking the animations for the additional weight put onto a topped out frame. Bone shape is more or less set in stone and doesn't need tweaking.
onyx stump
Strains are completely different in that not everybody is going to be able to unlock them, and if you do unlock them, you become an almost unstoppable monster. This elders idea sounds like it just a slower, fatter version of every dinosaur that everybody does eventually unlock. Just because they are a version of a dinosaur does not mean they are the same. Gameplay wise, they are completely different.
lethal sparrow
But production wise, they are not. Strains are a large investment for the art team and for players to unlock. Slower, fatter, callused dinosaurs are a far smaller investment for the art team, while providing more sustained nuance to the entire ecosystem. Strains, on the other hand, are degenerative wrecking balls, hypoendocrines especially.
As far as what's an efficient investment for the team parallel to or before the entire framework for acquiring strain DNA is worked out, as well as figuring out the right degree of intentional imbalance for these map scale homewreckers, I'd say fat bully grandpas win out for easy extra content post-recode.
onyx stump
I don't think the dev team is going to pick having elders in their game over the strains. This goes back to game design, just because they could doesn't mean they should. The devs want to tell a story or set up a gameplay experience that is unique to their game. I don't know if they want to throw money at elder models, if they could add a different shader and textures maps to make them look old... idk, maybe they would like that or maybe they wont. I'm more in favor of different textures maps based on time in game and different stats based on damage taken. I'm against different models and low stats purely based on time.
lethal sparrow
It's not either/or. It's a matter of priority of investment and whether there's parallel resources available to do both at once instead of one, then the other.
Texture mapping for scars is good. Old dinos need to be humpty assholes if it can be done.
onyx stump
If it should be done.
viral creek
@nova summit
Their goal is to add dinosaurs that each have a unique playstyle, in terms of playables. So we're not going to get that many more playables. But we will get more in terms of ai
Also feathers are planned. You will be able to select between feathers and scales in the future.
still temple
dibble, maia unique playstyle?
viral creek
Idk why they added dibble. But chances are they have something in mind
Maia has quite a few opportunities for unique abilties
clever leaf
since diablo exists, why not alberto as an option in the future
nova summit
Styracosaurs would be dope as a playable character
clever leaf
Styraco is literally just reskinned Diablo
edgy furnace
mellow maple
Referring back to my Allo grip suggestion. Someone said Dondi confirmed it right? If someone could link me with the source that'd be amazing.
sick haven
Regarding the old age suggestion,
I don't think people should be penalised for living a long time. I get that it's a way to encourage people (especially Apexes) to 'reroll' their character every now and then instead of sticking with it. I don't believe that we need it, though. The affinity system will solve issues with apexes and larger dinos packing up to large amounts, and they'll be penalised through that. Punishing people for surviving for a very long time really sends the wrong message and just hurts them for being good.
Living a long time should be a rewarding experience.
Instead, I totally agree with the idea that aging adults get more powerful, at the penalty of being slower. An elderly, grey scaled rex is an absolute badass, something that has become more or less the king of its environment, discounting strains. It may be slow, but it's incredibly experienced and strong from a lifetime of endless conflict, hunting, and competition. With enough aging (That is to say, quite a bit), it should be able to challenge a Magna in terms of raw strength, and give a hypo a fight before going down.
If an old rex is around, everyone else should go running, much in the way that people react to hypos. It is a veteran of the Isle, and anything stupid enough to not get off its lawn is going to get eaten.
Granted, it should probably also get a slower metabolism so the reduced speed isn't a killer all on its own.
sick haven
ye
jovial blade
The elder suggestion was mostly for a end game type thing
Also it buffs you in a way
Usually as a apex you die to another apex because you want to die or bored
misty island
@sick haven how do you think about my suggestion ages ago
Award for surviving longer as an individual dino.
Right now after growing to full adult you basically lost every other objective except surviving, and it tends to get boring and hideous.
If you could get rewarded for how long you lived/how many players you hunted by having a secondary colour alteration on that dinosaur and with a slight buff in states that is not overpowered would really spice things up. The Ideal enhancement would be something like buffing the strongest or weakest trait of that species slightly overtime, like 2-5% for every 20+hrs playing that dinosaur. Preparing people to actually challenge hypos with ordinary dinos or just matches the fact that with age comes refined fighting skills.
idk how many ppl saw it
but i feel like this is something we could have and actually work in a long term
sick haven
Yeah, absolutely. Taking my example of a rex, its strength is in toughness and bite force, its weakness is speed and stamina.
While hypos, magnas, strains in general will be all around better than the original, if an apex survives for so long it should become strong enough to challenge a strain, though not equal it.
jovial blade
@sick haven It's weakness isn't stam
i mean speed
rex is suppose to be fast
Just not great stam
sick haven
Yeah, I was just naming something that could be weakened in addition to stamina
jovial blade
Would be cool if there was the elder system
You can pick speed,stam,damage or bleed route
What ever you pick you gain slightly
So like you get an extra number for progression to grow in what you picked
so like bleed, your teeth get bigger or more serrated teeth
Or bigger horns/ claws for herbs
just an idea that could work if thought out properly
sage helm
That would be cool
candid haven
The elder system would be interesting- but I don't think an elder would be more powerful than a prime dino- maybe it could have a short buff mode where it does a very heavy attack but it takes a lot of its effort to do such. Older animals are always slower and more frail compared to an animal in its prime- yet they can still take them from their sheer skill. Making an elder that is a buffed next level would be a little silly, all people want is their dino to have as much damage as possible and not have any sort of struggle in game. While I like the thought of an elder dino model and others ideas of just forced degradation (Someone suggested yesterday that the dinos just inevitably start getting slower, walking with a limp and not healing to it's full health) People will simply say "Oh why is my dino not healing right and limping let's report this bug" or "Why didn't I heal to full? well, guess it's time to respawn if my dino can't keep it's stats anymore"
If they put hypo in progression there needs to be some sort of struggle to get to hypo- else people will simply cheese their way to it (Back when they were in progression before. I had a friend that simply sat afk most the time- watching shows and playing other games even till he had the points for hypo- then boom he was hypo, no struggle) There needs to be a struggle in there somewhere for these people to reach that hypo goal. It'd give people a reason to keep their degrading dino rather than simply "Man I have lost some health and am not getting it back nest me again pls kthnks"
jovial blade
We want an end game that's good
Not a old timer dino
I just feel this would be alot better then having all that hypo nonsense in game
Sure hypo can be used for marketing but having it as the end game for some dinos would suck in game in eco system
Because elders have advantage but are still killable
And dont go around killing shit all the time they're a normal dino that evolved a new trait
flint rune
tbh, when strains are playble, I rather be a Neuro or Tisso, bc they wont get hungry as fast and they can survive better than hypo
but im not sure if your gonna be able to select what strain you get
jovial blade
I want the invisible one
flint rune
That would be eather up to the humans, or the plants and bodys you eat
jovial blade
The stealthy one
candid haven
I can understand people wanting an end game that is good, I wouldn't complain if the elder did end up being more powerful but this is intended to be a more horror esque game than oh I reached the next level now I can kill most anything (Which sadly is what most people do- kill anything that moves that they can get away with) I feel dondi would want it to be more realistic (Or would like to think such) and if they do add the strains I doubt he'll make it easy to reach them
civic sky
Iirc i think tisso is the stealthy one while neuro is the “alien-psychic” looking one who plays mind games. Assuming those are still the names.
Correct me if I have them reversed though
candid haven
I think you're right unsure I would have to look
civic sky
But I agree though monk, that’s the strain I think many should go fir in terms of all around Survival.
I can definitely see it outlasting hypo and maybe the other one.
flint rune
Atm the game is less horror and more frustrating bc of some of the people that play the game, hence why along time ago I wanted a single player mode so I can acctulay enjoy it with out Kosers ect.
candid haven
A lot of kosing megapacks would have a hard snap back at reality if their dinos started weakening due to age.
brisk mesa
No they wouldn't lol.
They'd just kill 10x more while in their prime
suicide and get carebared back up
candid haven
They do that anyways
brisk mesa
They'd be even worse.
candid haven
They kill whatever they see
brisk mesa
If you slap an artificial expiration onto someone they panic.
People just are like that
There's absolutely nothing wrong with mass killing players.
It's part of the game.
But if you make people start getting weaker as they age
flint rune
and not even the enfinity system will stop them witch it sadening
brisk mesa
They'll just be even more toxic.
It's not intended to stop them, it's intended to stop cancerous megapacking and mixpacking and water suicide
And besides eventually perks will be a thing ingame.
candid haven
Yeah its a intended to be a horror game. a lot of those dinos in mega packs are about the same age and would all be weakening around the same time, then while carebearing their way back to adult they can be taken out by smaller creatures
brisk mesa
Lol.
I have a Subrex that has been alive for 3 months.
I grew it at same time as my packmates but barely log on with it.
candid haven
Can't tell you how many children I have slayed in mega packs or made their parents eat
you cause a commotion and all hell breaks loose
brisk mesa
Yeah?
What does that have to do with this?
Most people don't keep their apexes alive for that long.
They get killed by other apexes.
Die in some gang war, or get swarmed when solo by Dilos / Carnos / Allos
candid haven
unless it's those megapacks who have been there for a long time and know what to do lol
brisk mesa
Those megapacks don't exist anymore on official.
The days of Dinky, and Gondwana and the Chinese are gone
umbral prairie
If aging is implememted it would be cool to have first an elder stage which is slightly bigger and with an own model, with slightly better damage/health, but some, depending on the dino, are maybe a bit slower (not really necessary though) and maybe if elders are there for long enough you get a weaker form of the original dino with maybe less damaging or slower attacks, less stamina or less speed (that should only happen if the dino is played for a really long time, something like 40-80 hours)
brisk mesa
We don't have massive dedicated kill squads anymore
Instead we have discord servers where the admins drop @ everyone's every other second saying 'hey wanna form a pack of X'
It's just associations of players grouping together.
umbral prairie
and maybe you only get the elder with good affinity, with bad affinity you only get the weaker form
brisk mesa
Easy ways to form groups.
Adding in a weakened stage won't punish these large groups it'll only hurt solo players more.
If you think 5 Gigas, even at weakened state, are dying to anything on an official server except 4 or 5 Rexes / Trikes
you are disconnected from reality.
Giga's alt turn alone is a force of nature.
flint rune
tbh, having a bunch of kosers and just people masskilling each other does not sound like a "fun game" its sound boring and not entresting in the least. So I dont think thats the rought Dondies headed. but then again. What do I know
brisk mesa
"kosers"
candid haven
If you're taking on gigas with a less powerful dino then that would just be silly- it's more target the one you want don't just bite everyone XD I think it would be more viable if it's an option to go to that elder state rather than forcing it cause then lone players don't really have to worry- don't click the button
umbral prairie
I have not encountered mass packs in a very long time tbh
brisk mesa
^^^
I've seen 4 man Rex packs and I've been a cheeky cunt going around in 5 man giga packs
umbral prairie
plus 'kos' is kill on sight, which is not necessarily a bad thing imo
brisk mesa
^^^
It's a strictly PvP game as it stands.
Do you scream KOS if you get shot by someone in PuBG or someshit?
umbral prairie
except on 'realism' servers where you have to scream at your prey so you have to ruin your ambush
brisk mesa
CoD?
Sammel Dondi mocks those, so they clearly aren't focus of development
He caters to official servers.
flint rune
It is if you have 20 bodeys on the ground and you dont eat any of it just keeps on killing for "fun"
umbral prairie
yeah I know
brisk mesa
It is fun to kill others lmao
I once killed 36 people as a Para in one day on an official server.
How does that make you feel?
4, maybe 5 hours and I killed 36.
As a herbivore
Upsets you doesn't it?
And I didn't discriminate.
Killed juvi herbis as well.
candid haven
That is pretty usual for herbis I have seen
flint rune
Like you are a bad ingame player, but Heck. Again... What..do I know
candid haven
That is why this is suggestions discussion cause it's talking about the future of the game not as it stands now-
brisk mesa
So if any of them had megapack buddies which still existed back then, they all coulda rolled up at any time and put me down.
They didn't.
As for the idea of making it a stage you click to progress to, players simply won't click it.
candid haven
Dondi doesn't want it to just be pvp pretty sure- that is why he has the affinity planned
brisk mesa
Affinity will only stop mixpacking, megapacking, drowning yourself
Corpse guarding as herbivores.
Nothing else.
Rumors that say it will stop KOS are just that, rumors.
It's not what's gonna happen.
Dondi doesn't want a Utah scouting for a Trex
but gives 0 fucks if your Trex kills an entire Para herd
candid haven
As for clicking and not clicking that progression- I totally understand that is why I suggested it leads to something else like if the strains are inputted people would have a reason to click said button
brisk mesa
Dondi doesn't want strains to attainable in a straight forwards way.
He has mused that once he adds in the way, he won't disclose it.
It won't be in patch notes.
candid haven
I know
brisk mesa
And he even went ahead to say that after some people reach strains he'll change the method
just to screw with people.
candid haven
Probably doesn't want people complaining if he adds something like a weakened state
brisk mesa
No he just wouldn't add something predictable like that.
candid haven
I mean people have suggested stronger elders too- anything is sort of predictable at this point
People have suggested the migration tactic for strains too
brisk mesa
That's not about strains tho.
Making Elders a means for dinosaurs to weaken over time just isn't a good strategy to curb apex populations.
People are generally only online for a few hours in a row, it takes a long time to do anything with that.
candid haven
There have been suggestions for rituals, and many other things alike to those suggestions
brisk mesa
Mercs and Tribals will be a thing that legitimately puts down apex pops
None of those suggestions will be used tho, is the thing.
candid haven
Humans will be op in terms of taking out dinos
brisk mesa
He wants to catch everyone off guard.
So everytime someone posts a suggestion of "become strain X way"
candid haven
I remember the taming suggestions and pretty sure he even said at one point that it'd be interesting to make someone's dino get tamed
brisk mesa
it pretty much guarantees we won't get strains that way
That's been planned for a long time, Tribals will enslave dinos, not tame.
Your dino isn't in their control but, if you resist you'll be harmed
candid haven
Pretty much the same thing just not a reward for doing what you should just punish what you did wrong wihich is still a type of training
Hell people torture horses to get them to do high steps, not everyone, but some well known horse shows have had reports of people using all sorts of methods to get their animal to high step- people training dogs use a treat for good behavior method
They are all methods of training just depends on the type of person you're dealing with
and training is in a way taming the animal- doesn't have to like what is happening but if it's scared to do something wrong it obeys hence tamed
Pretty sure Dondi said fliers wouldn't be in the game at all at some point cause they'll be like a easy way for packs to track other packs, and many like the idea and don't like it for those same reasons. Yet they are making fliers, have tested fliers, I have pictures of when I got to test quetzals couple years ago. People have suggested them and he has shot the suggestions down yet has done them. As much as it'd be AWESOME dondi finds a way that people haven't suggested or thought about as well yet- chances are low on that because many people get the same ideas or something akin to those ideas
While they won't per say be someones suggestion straight out, it would probably be close to a suggestion that has been laid out, because people are so curious and excited for these strains to start appearing in game
blazing charm
@fervent fable More skin patterns will come in time.
fervent fable
Ok
blazing charm
Joke suggestions are yucky
south flower
Unneeded animations that have no use whatsoever, which cost a lot of money to make per dinosaur.
umbral prairie
why are you talking about this like it is a serious suggestion
south flower
Because it was put in suggestions and thus it's available for serious discussion lmao
even if it's a troll suggestion 🤷
minor osprey
Hopefully there's a way to adjust or disable affinity in the future. The server I'm on made special rules for carni mixpacking, so friends can play their fave dinos.
barren zephyr
did u just call tyrannosaurus a scavenger?
lilac swallow
And carno and utah?
paper oriole
scavengers more like.. cerato and herrera
not fucken rex and carno lol, utah will take anything thats a playstyle option
blazing charm
@steel quartz Where's that screenshot from? Never seen it before
steel quartz
@blazing charm
I shoped it ^^''
blazing charm
Ah.
steel quartz
thx tho 😛
steel quartz
thank you 😄
mental sleet
Oroshop
steel quartz
but yeah, I really wanna pick up kills and take them with me. to feed babies or mate or just move it in a saver place.
@mental sleet
no
steel quartz
yay 😄
coarse shell
@twilit dagger long legs, yes, but it wouldnt exactly go too well for things trying to hunt it
a bit op
twilit dagger
I don’t know why people say OP with herbivores. xD easy prey for Utah’s and anything else that can just eat them off the perch they’re standing? Legs look pretty muscular to me, too. Baby galli has high jump, so I find it curious.
coarse shell
because baby galli is able to be caught by everything
mostly everything
galli is one of the fastest dinos in survival, right behind carno
utahs and carnos already have a hard time catching it because of its turn
it doesnt really need a higher jump man
and ive had a galli on us 1 for a while now, so i kinda know its agility
paper oriole
idk what the harm would be i mean they should be a big challenge to catch
normal fern
They already are, you asking for a buff to gallis jump is like someone asking for a buff to allos ambush duration
It's already easymode as is
barren zephyr
u see the jump is worthless cant even jump on a small rock
it drains stamina fast too
blazing charm
@past valve Why would it be worth to add those creatures?
hasty parcel
Gotta add more to suggestions for dinos
barren zephyr
i could see oviraptor adding a very unique play style but lambeo?
hasty parcel
While it would be cool to see more stuff, there's not really a point if they don't bring something new to the table. And then it would just be a waste to spend thousands of dollars
blazing charm
People keep saying Oviraptor, but I honestly can't think of anything for them except for it being a egg thief which is somewhat of a "controversial" depiction, or being an Omnivore which even then is kind of a no-no at the moment.
past valve
oviraptor didnt eat eggs
hasty parcel
Again, you have to put some more thought to your creature suggestions
It's important to know really why you think they should be added and how they would work etc.
past valve
and it would be fun to play as them, the isle isnt just a game of life and death, its also a game for us dino lovers to ply as ou favourite creatures
hasty parcel
Just saying "add x" won't help
blazing charm
@past valve I am aware it didn't eat eggs.
I am just saying, that Ovi being an egg thief is the most obvious "niche" for it, hence why I said it was controversial.
A creature needs to have something unique going for it to be included in Survival.
umbral prairie
every dino should be unique in a way, just having 'it would be fun to play as' might not be enough.
blazing charm
^
umbral prairie
also, making a new dino often costs multiple thousands and a lot of time
hasty parcel
while I do think there could be some similarities in playstyle, they should still have something unique enough to them, besides appearance
but that might just be me
blazing charm
@past valve To give you an idea. What would it's playstyle be? It's niche? Special mechanic or abilities?
What about its growth cycle?
Some similarity and overlapping in playstyles is inevitable
hasty parcel
Eventually it will be
barren zephyr
a omnivorous egg thief could be rather an intresting role
hasty parcel
why be both omnivorous AND an egg thief
barren zephyr
because its a Fucking oviraptor
past valve
because you cant just live on eggs
blazing charm
Problem is though
(1) We aren't sure about the current state of Omnivores.
(2) Egg-Thief is considered "inaccurate", but I personally don't care much for that.
past valve
and oviraptor didnt eat eggs lmao
hasty parcel
We get that
barren zephyr
dude
blazing charm
Also, if it's Omnivorous then what is the point of eating eggs?
hasty parcel
But this game is not a fully realism-oriented game
If they want to change stuff, they can
barren zephyr
pretty sure a juvie utah is the size of a real life lion
blazing charm
@past valve You are aware there are mutation dinosaurs, a Dilophosaurus that has anti-coagulant venom
uh what else
I guess the feathers are another thing
basically, no one really cares about Accuracy that much.
past valve
what do you mean mutation?
hasty parcel
Strains
barren zephyr
the point of eating eggs could be to get some high nourishment
blazing charm
Trying to find a picture that isn't from a fucking thumbnail
barren zephyr
my vision of oviraptor in the isle is for it to get low food from plants have no ambush or ai spawn on it and have 30min hunger seeking for dead bodies and nesting grounds
past valve
so you mean some dinosaurs in the game would be mutated, like not realistic
blazing charm
Ah screw it, I'll just leave it as a mystery.
Basically Strains are mutations of certain creatures, currently consisting of mostly Apex carnivores. The most well known form of a strain is a Hyperendocrine, which basically is a dinosaur on steroids and gives it boney plating
barren zephyr
if the game was realistic rex wouldnt have asthma and would been a stamina freak while his juvie would be able to run 50km/h
hasty parcel
Let's not forget the Colossus, Reaper and...I forgot the Neuro one
barren zephyr
Echidna
blazing charm
And like I previously mentioned, a large majority of the animals are depicted with creative differences. The Dilophosaurus has Anti-coagulant venom, the Dryosaurs digs burrows like a god damn gopher.
barren zephyr
That's what the Neuro one is called i think
blazing charm
It is a game my dude, accuracy ain't a priority.
past valve
but camara and stegos are unique, why arent they in survival???
blazing charm
Also yeah, it's Echidna.
umbral prairie
stego will be
blazing charm
They are coming.
hasty parcel
Cuz they're being worked on
barren zephyr
they will
umbral prairie
cam probably too
blazing charm
Well, not sure about Camara.
hasty parcel
Not everything is going to be in instantly
barren zephyr
camera will definitely come
hasty parcel
Camara is a maybe
blazing charm
It takes time.
umbral prairie
camara has been worked on a bit lately, so maybe AI or playable in survival
hasty parcel
Stego is certain tho
umbral prairie
stego will definitely be playable in survival
barren zephyr
Dondi mentioned something about Camara a while ago
all it needs is eatable trees and a upsize with bug fixes to be in survival
hasty parcel
Ye, about him changing his mind on having sauropods playable in survival
past valve
but if all dinos needs to be unique, that makes having dinosaurs from same clans impossible
hasty parcel
We're not saying they have to be 100% unique
But they can't be the exact same
or have nothing seriously unique about them
like Lambeo when there's Para
past valve
yea i guess so
barren zephyr
yeah
blazing charm
Also the uh, Isisaurus?
hasty parcel
Only a few sauropods will be in
umbral prairie
brachi will be AI afaik
hasty parcel
Yes
barren zephyr
lambeosaurs like para cory and lambeo itself are too similar
past valve
yea what abt isisaurus?
hasty parcel
Cory had a model, but we don't know what they're going to do with it
blazing charm
They could be differentiated with their own unique mechanics down the line, maybe.
hasty parcel
likelihood to me seems AI
umbral prairie
I still hope for cory/pachyrhino AI tbh, since they already have a model for them
barren zephyr
i think it would be hard to make a new mid sized sauropod unique
hasty parcel
Pachyrhino could be playable in my eyes
past valve
no, ai shouldnt be too big
hasty parcel
Yes
blazing charm
@past valve We have plenty of Sauropods, also there doesnn't seem to be anything unique about it.
umbral prairie
we neede bigger AI, spawning randomly instead of near you when you're hungry
barren zephyr
like camara has stomp and tail whip. why would we need bronto or dip
past valve
bronto never existed
barren zephyr
we dont need bigger ai
umbral prairie
also, bigger AI means less AI needed to feed the carnis, so the server might be able to handle more players
blazing charm
There was something in 2014 that made Bronto valid again, or something like that. Idfk
still temple
@past valve brontosaurus has been valid since 14/15
past valve
it was just a camara skull on apto body
barren zephyr
we need less ai spawning on afkers
hasty parcel
That was before they did research again
umbral prairie
there are multiple bronto 'versions'
hasty parcel
Bronto has since then been found to have difference in the vertebrae or something from Apato
blazing charm
The pure paleo gatekeeping I am feeling rn
hasty parcel
:/
barren zephyr
isle is like the only "survival" game that has food spawn on you that i can think of
still temple
that moment when you're arguing for scientific accuracy but is currently lagging behind by ~5 years.
blazing charm
@still temple Pretty much.
umbral prairie
I think bigger AI would be very cool, like small hadrosaur herds moving around, encouraging mid tiers and apexes to move around more. Of course there would still need to be some small AI to delay starvation of carnivores, but I think apexes/mid tier packs should not be able to sustain themselves off of small AI forever
barren zephyr
eh why would i want less player interaction
past valve
so apato and bronto are different species??
still temple
yes
umbral prairie
AI herds would increase player interactions tbh, people will move around more to find them since they can't eat oros forever and might find players in the process
barren zephyr
i would like 200slot server to function on v3 more than large ai groups that make apex life easy
jovial blade
Bruh
Herds would be endless food
I just think we should lower ai when we get more player slot
So make it a slow process
barren zephyr
^
umbral prairie
apex life would still be 'harder' with bigger AI spawning since you actually have to do something to eat them, not wait in a bush until some oro screams around and trot up to it and kill it
jovial blade
I'd love to actually survive off players around the map
umbral prairie
that would be better
barren zephyr
nah
jovial blade
Sam
umbral prairie
but life should also be possible on smaller/emptier servers
barren zephyr
200slots is clearly better
jovial blade
That wont solve anything
past valve
so let me get this straight: First scientists placed camara skull on apato head and named it bronto, then they found a skeleton that actually was a bronto and thus bronto became its own species?
jovial blade
More slots we can get more players so we wont need more ai
umbral prairie
I already said surviving off of players is better
barren zephyr
who feels even joy killing lifeless ai
jovial blade
Lol
umbral prairie
but on emptier servers AI herds could be cooler then oros
barren zephyr
ye
still temple
@past valve a simple read on wikipedia would answer ur questions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brontosaurus#History
umbral prairie
do you think I want to replace oros with hadros only? Because I don't. Of course some small AI is needed for smaller dinos/juvies (and to help bigger ones if they can't find anything), but rexes should not live off of oros forever. Of course huting players is better, but that is not always possible on servers with less than 150 slots.
jovial blade
So you want them to live off ai herds
barren zephyr
jovial blade
Yes, that's why we should increase slots bit by bit
And decreasing ai over time
Few Ava and oro can sustain rex for a while until you find players anyway
barren zephyr
v3 the walking ai simulator
jovial blade
Unless you like being in huge packs
barren zephyr
the more the game becomes a survival game
umbral prairie
I mean, you're going to need more AI for 20 players on a server than for 5, but once the player count is high enough the amount of AI should decrese
jovial blade
They attack you
Survive ai dino attacks
But it would be rare ovcurance
Occurance
barren zephyr
i kinda highly dislike velo ai
specially when nesting
it quite litrally spawnkills and koses
hasty parcel
I mean, that's the point of it lel
hasty parcel
And the threat of being a juvie/hatchling killer
steady cosmos
@polar juniper cerato isnt an ambush predator tho
barren zephyr
exactly thats what i thought
i feel like cera should be at 36 but have its stamina buffed so much
it shouldnt have an ambush imo like carno
barren zephyr
not really
allo outstams cera by a min and cera is only 2kms faster
plus allos players tend to spam the ambush of allo which is 12secs long and 44kms
ceras ambush is only 39-40 and 6 secs long
allo basically catches cera and curbstomps it
cera being a highly successful indurance hunter like a hyena while being a scavenger is my vision of how it should be
also we need an ambush cooldown
the fact u can just spam ambush in plains to catch a para 
steady cosmos
2 km can make the difference losing your enemies in a straight stam run
steady cosmos
It does tho
you do notice both of them can run a very large distance of the map right?
cerato being faster means it can easily get further than allo faster.
and also has time to deviate its path more
causing the allo trouble when tracking
thats all just one stam bar
rivers and water exist also
when it comes to hurting the hunt
barren zephyr
cera cant get the much further than allo
ive tested it and allo is capable getting more distance cause it has a whole min and 10 secs more stamina
lilac swallow
Its like giga vs Rex, while Rex is faster giga runs way more distance
steady cosmos
Well, i cant argue with stats. But there are other things at play in this game.
Like said deviations of path
actual stuff to do to get away
ntm just avoiding allos as cerato
barren zephyr
the thing is allo is the chaser and has a whole 1min more stam and a 12 sec 44 ambush
jovial blade
Allo needs ambush speed reduction or duration
steady cosmos
Also i assume said tests were done in a deathmatch server of some kind?
barren zephyr
no cooldown
jovial blade
Its at such a strong place right now
It can beat all tier 4s
Even take on apexed
Apexes
barren zephyr
nah ive actively outstammed and runned down ceras in survival as allo
steady cosmos
Aside from sucho, you're right
jovial blade
Sucho has its weaknesses
steady cosmos
but have you considdered the other "tier 4" dinos arent meant to be equal?
jovial blade
I don't see any in allo
steady cosmos
I can see that happening chungus
jovial blade
Yes, but allo is a classes tier 4
They're almost a apex
If rex and giga werent in game
I would class allo as apex
barren zephyr
eh allo is less balanced then sub rex
jovial blade
Sub rex is good fully grown
barren zephyr
it is 33 and the same stam as cera so cera can get away plus allo can also get away from it
sucho murders it in 1v1
steady cosmos
general discussion or suggestion discussion?
jovial blade
Suggestion
Doesn't have to be a suggestion already written
You can talk about what you want to suggest
Or what should be
Etc
steady cosmos
we were talking about a specific suggestion however
it deviated at the end to other things
jovial blade
Doesn't have to stay on topic or a certain suggestion
misty island
Bro
The purpose of this entire channel is created to discuss on the topic suggested in suggestions
If you want to talk about suggestions that haven’t been written down in the #general-feedback channel head right down to #401464048610312195
jovial blade
Ok thanks for the advice
jovial blade
Nah fam
People will go off in a tree to sleep and heal mid combat
Plus that mechanic wouldn't be usef often because who to wants to play on a dark screen whilst not being able to do nothing that encourages afking
lilac swallow
@barren zephyr sub giga needs help, and sub trike too both are basically walking meals that cant run away nor fight
Conpared to sub rex who is a proper mid tier
barren zephyr
Sub rex is just perfect round up
steel quartz
What's wrong with the sleep ability suggestion? You can't misuse it, it's not overpowered, you're not forced to do it, and it can give an extra tension of not knowing you're save or not.
(I'm not saying you need to sleep like with water, it's only if you need a boost.)
barren zephyr
nothing to complain about sub rexes
Sub rexes can even escape from adult gigas due being fast
lilac swallow
Im not saying sub Rex is op or that It need nerf, but sub giga and trike are basically fat juvies whobhave to hide during 3 hours
barren zephyr
If the developer vision is that sub gigas have to fight to stay alive atleast buff their turn rate it doesn't make sense that when they are a fully grown adult they become this turn fighting beast that rexes become forced to use hit and run tactics to beat it
Sub rex is fine
Just there are no positives about sub gigas
not a single one
lilac swallow
There are some dinos(sub trike, adult trike, cerato, sub giga) that cant run from their predators but also cant fight them back
Makes them worthles
barren zephyr
Yes but that doesn't mean
they don't have a single favorable match ups
if it becomes a scenario that you cannot run away or fight anything
it's a badly designed dinosaur
and flawed to core
lilac swallow
Obviously they have favorable match ups
But when they have an unfavorable one the better they can do is siting and waiting to die
barren zephyr
just sub gigas don't have any favorable match ups sadly. They can only beat juvis.
All subs beat a sub giga unless the sub giga is at it's last hour of growth
lilac swallow
I mean dryo has no favorable match up but they are still viable why they dont do something about sub giga and sub trike
barren zephyr
It's a herbivore they don't compete against other carnivores. For Dryo it's enough they can run away, jump into places predators cant reach and hide in a burrow.
But sub trike
still needs to be strong enough to defend itself
lilac swallow
Yeah but sub trike is even slower than adult trike
Sub trike and i think sub giga needs both tonbe faster than their respectives adults just like rex
Sub Rex isnt powerful enought to fight an adult apex but they can run away but sub giga and sub trike are even slower than their adults making them apexes food
barren zephyr
Sub rexes are not suppose to fight adult apexes
But they are more than strong enough to fight mid tiers and are not forced to fight
on all scenarios a sub giga is forced to fight
turn rate is very important in fights and sub rex just happens to have a good turn rate
lilac swallow
Yeah i know they shouldnt be fighting adult apexes thats why they are faster than them, but sub giga and trike arent neither designed to fight apexes but still cant run away thats my main concern
And even then they arent really capable of fighting mid tiers
barren zephyr
I personally think a sub giga being a known endurance predator would be faster while it's still considered light weighted
maybe if developers could make it so it's speed decays as it gains weight when it grows
would make it less frustrating
but the turn rate needs a buff
a juvi giga turns better than a sub
while a juvi rex turn is worse than a juvi giga
it doesn't make sense why during their sub adulthood all advantages swiftes to the rex
lilac swallow
Speeds decays at it grows is just what i want for them. Rex actually do it why not giga and trike?
I have only grow a trike and a rex,
i needed 4 trys to grow a trike and when i achieved it it was because i camped lazy River during its 6 hours of grow,
While with Rex i only needed a try and i was active i didnt need to live in a bush
barren zephyr
It's easy to grow if it's not a populated server and you know the map and have friends. It's also easy to grow if people take advantage being female and put a nest.
Since normally AI only spawn if there are two hungry carnivores nearby
but if there is a nest and a carnivore AIs will spawn too
Problem is when you play on a populated server and want to play as a male dinosaur without abusing game mechanics
it becomes really frustrating as all water holes are guarded and you need to have one other carnivore nearby to survive
and that other carnivore could potential grow to it's peek faster than you
lilac swallow
I hope after the recode they start balancing more seriously, and i hope they follow the rule of "if X dino cant fight Y dino It should be able to either out speed or out stam it"
barren zephyr
thats why you tend to travel
but travelling isn't something a sub giga should
cause it's big and slow
and nobody fears it
lilac swallow
Sub giga is basically a worse sucho and sucho isnt specially good
barren zephyr
Not all dinosaurs should have a counter
some dinos are meant to be hard counters
cause some are natural adversaries etc
that evolved to hunt them
etc
but doesn't mean all dinos are.
there need to be prey and hunters
not only hunters
Just I find this imagining of a giga pretty clumsy
lilac swallow
Yeah but for example carno is meant to kill small dinos but still all small dinos can dodge It if skilled enought. But some dinos like sub giga and sub trike nonmatter how skilled are you and how dumb is your predator It still kills you
barren zephyr
I don't think they would have survived unless their parents have babysitted them to adulthood which they probably didn't
but who knows maybe Gigas already went extinct before T-rexes
idk
Gigas are relatively new find too
jovial blade
Bruh giga sub sucks
Longer then sub rex
In growth timer
Such bad speed
Yo that last part of the sub giga suggestion so true
If you're playing sub giga literally so much shit can kill you
So you end up sitting in a Bush or eating ai
unborn quail
Ai is a redundant argument for a creature needing a nerf, that's an issue to do with Ai all together.(Every carnivore can live off and sustain a pack off of ai) Also saying allo has 'amazing bleed for a mid tier' also really holds no ground due to Sucho and Carno nearly matching it in that department (both have twenty bleed). Speed is fine, for both areas, Allosaurus's ambush actually gives it the ability to hunt things like Utah and maia, who were practically free of any predators who could do such a thing before hand. The only 'tweaks' Allosaurus needs really comes down to proper mechanics such as actual challenging Ai and an ambush system that actually punishes you for messing up.
Ambush duration could use some tweaks as well(I will level that 12 seconds is a tad overkill) But in the end, so long as ambush actually becomes an actual ambush system, there's really no reason for it.
unborn quail
I mean, not so much a think, it needs to be, and hopefully will be with this recode
It's not a hard thing to do either, a simple way is just having Stamina drain down to half or even a third during ambush
Then slap a cooldown on it
People have to actually 'ambush', as they aren't getting a second chance if they miss
And no more repetitive spam ambush
spiral pond
True
unborn quail
The heavy drop in stamina would also leave predators more vulnerable, thus increasing the risk factor
torpid wedge
idk why sleep is getting such bad responses
i think it's a good idea
you're basically putting yourself in a very vulnerable position as a trade for faster heal regen
maybe if you couldn't get to sleep while there were other predators around then it'd be okay, so a juvie can't sleep mid combat while adults protect it
valid flower
It’s irrelevant
Let them focus on different important things not the ability to sleep
blazing charm
I don't know about you, but the idea of something managing to escape a predator, and regenerating wounds via a power nap sounds awful
jovial blade
^
Also who tf wants to sit there on a dark screen not being able to do shit
People would just sleep to heal wounds and bleed whilst watching YouTube
sage helm
Allo is not ridiculously fast
Its only 1km faster than a rex
Altho
I guess rex isnt too slow
But still
If anything allo just needs a shorter ambush if even a tiny bit shorter
thorny lynx
Allo has a fast ambush
It can almost hit 45. That's faster than Dilo's.
Dilo has a 1.1x ambush and can only hit 42.68 km/h
Cerato has the same multiplier, so fat chance of it escaping allo ambush, too
Those dinos either need a buff or a nerf
In fact, I'm suggesting it for the umpteenth time.
brisk mesa
@thorny lynx
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LNIsS0NXxledmO4sYN8v7dmx5AnHIslJloyhKI9kKv8/edit#gid=0
See Dilo's ambush.
thorny lynx
I thought it was 1.1x
brisk mesa
It used to be, got stealth changed at some point.
Sorry that I was the one who originally informed you of it.
Now your points on Allosaurus being overtuned are meritable but I don't think it needs a nerf.
waxen elk
Dilo ambush was never changed
brisk mesa
Ceratosaurus is miserable compared to it and for whatever reason it's cerato that 'can't have everything"
waxen elk
It was always 45 km/h
barren zephyr
unpopular opinion: ceras ambush should be dropped and it should be a stamina freak like a hyena
brisk mesa
I mean no point dropping something that doesn't exist lmao.
Allow it to keep it's meme ambush that only allows it to catch Dilos and Pachy.
That lasts for 6 fucking seconds.
Just buff the poor bastard.
barren zephyr
ay atleast its an ambush
brisk mesa
Ceratosaurus needs something.
Honestly it should do more bleed, look at those nasty teeth it has.
barren zephyr
u dont want a 30sec long 44 speed buff button and call it an ambush
brisk mesa
What?
barren zephyr
meant it works like an actual ambush
thorny lynx
I think cerato should have 10 bleed, 350 damage, high bleed resist, meh bleed heal like Rex
barren zephyr
that makes u get close to ur prey
thorny lynx
Like, high bleed resist meaning 10% damage a minute
brisk mesa
That's basically current except for the resist.
A 2 bleed buff is not really worth mentioning as a stat change
thorny lynx
Cerato needs to be known as that fucker who gives no shit about bleed
brisk mesa
People overestimate how good Cerato would be with it's old bleed resistance
thorny lynx
Who can walk 3 bleed off almost
thorny lynx
The reason why Ceratosaurus rex was so viable was its health pool
brisk mesa
Takes too damn long to grow.
thorny lynx
It had meh weight but like... 4k health?
brisk mesa
4500
thorny lynx
Yeah
brisk mesa
And it could ambush utahs
thorny lynx
That's more than max sub rex
brisk mesa
and laughed at bleed.
thorny lynx
I like it laughing at bleed
brisk mesa
Substantially more, albeit like 600 kg less
thorny lynx
I want it to run away from an allo attack and say fuck you to said allo
brisk mesa
Yes I do as well but that isn't even enough on it's own
barren zephyr
its has average stamina
brisk mesa
Yes, but it's main rival outclasses it in every possible respect except agility and, if buffed, bleed res
thorny lynx
Scavengers usually can travel long distances to find food and water
I think it needs a buff to its stam, like
4 minutes
barren zephyr
7mins
sacred wyvern
thorny lynx
4 minutes sounds right