general-feedback-discussion

[barren zephyr]

bro, they don't care much about the game, if they did we would get bugfixes and stuff

[limber hull]

A death roll would work better as an addition to the kit, not a mechanic designed to be worse than your primary kill method

[barren zephyr]

exactly, not a buff just a feature

[pale prairie]

yes, there, you fixed it.

that system has to be added in anyway for herrerasaurus, might as well give it to deino too.

[limber hull]

but it doesn't add anything to the animal except a redundant feature that finds no application

[pale prairie]

especially if they actually make deinos lifecycle difficult.

[limber hull]

I'm FINE with the idea of a death roll, but not if it's just a worse option to an already existing strategy

[pale prairie]

well, no, that depends.

can it be done on animals larger than 4T? if so, it's an incredibly useful feature.

[barren zephyr]

beipi, ptera and hypsie are basically useless dinos but they are still in the game

[limber hull]

that's a horrible argument

small = useless is a terrible ideology i never will agree with

[barren zephyr]

no, it means not everything has to be a good option, some features can be added to just be additions to base play

variety

that's what I mean, some features can be only for player enjoyment, they don't have to be primary tools for hunting

[limber hull]

Also, hypsi and dryo have mechanics planned that add to their kit in a way that compliments their niche

Your death roll adds to deino's kit, sure, but it does not compliment deino's niche

[barren zephyr]

why doesn't it compliment deino? you could literally grab a piece of someones cheeks and eat it in front of them

that's a thing crocodilians do

[limber hull]

Because you could also just kill the thing and eat it whole for a far more substantial meal

[barren zephyr]

You clearly misunderstood my sarcastic interpretation of his logic

[barren zephyr]

where's the fun in that?

it's not cod, it's not all about killing

the way a result is achieved is half the fun

[pale prairie]

it's not a bad idea for animals larger than 4T.

deino can't lunge you, sure, but it can grab you and "flesh graze" you.

[limber hull]

when killing = substantial meals, yea it is. Especially on deino, who is ENTIRELY opportunistic, every meal counts

(if deino wasn't designed in such a way that it sustains itself by existing, that is)

but deino apparently is planned to be made MUCH harder according to devs, so we'll see how that turns out

[barren zephyr]

it wouldn't take away the option to hunt like you do now, it would only add an option to have fun

[limber hull]

but that option could get you killed

that's the issue

you may not get another opportunity like that

[barren zephyr]

then don't use that option xDDDDDD

you are free to make choices

[pale prairie]

hot take: add this to the current lunge, if the target is below 4T you lunge and drown, if it's above 4T you tear a chunk with a food value of 10% of the targets weight off.

[limber hull]

so why add it if the best course of action is to NEVER use it

[barren zephyr]

how you play is entirely up to you

[barren zephyr]

this brings us back to hypsie; why add it if most won't ever play it

to have fun, that's why

[limber hull]

no?

that's not comparable, hypsi has a defined planned niche in the ecosystem

extra small arboreal herbivore

[pale prairie]

that's a dumb argument.
better one: what about gallimimus foraging for compy? it's completely useless, even if they dig up frogs they'd be better off eating sumac.

[barren zephyr]

🙂 idk if ur trolling me a bit or just...

[limber hull]

how is this a troll

[barren zephyr]

I'll go eat dinner and play later, u just don't understand

[pale prairie]

well for one you seem to be ignoring the situations where this would make sense and actually be useful, that being against targets larger than 4T or otherwise larger animals when you're growing.

[limber hull]

sure, but he's never once presented it in that fashion, you've been doing that for him

[pale prairie]

well sometimes people need a little help to present their ideas in the best possible fashion.

if you scrap the permanent debuffs, just have it deal 10% locked health and only happen when lunging targets above 50% of your weight, this idea a perfect addition to deinosuchus lunge.

[barren zephyr]

I would not reserve this feature only for large targets, It can be exciting to eat a piece of carno in front of him

[pale prairie]

it's better than the "tug of war" idea i see being thrown around here a lot, because god knows a system like that would be abusable.

[limber hull]

Or just eat the carno

lol

[pale prairie]

but it'd be useless against smaller targets? as wave has been saying, you'd be better of lunging them and killing them.

at least against larger targets it has a use.

[barren zephyr]

what if my goal was not to kill it but to mess around with it

[pale prairie]

and it'd be easier/more straight forward if it was just an extension of lunge.

[barren zephyr]

it would also be just as easy if you made it alt lunge

[pale prairie]

then you need to get your priorities straight, deinosuchus life will hopefully be far more difficult in the future, giving up a full carno (which does not fill you) for a small meat chunk just for laughs will probably get you killed.

[limber hull]

You could lunge it, let it go and swim safely back
Lunge next to it to make it think you barely missed
Bite it, damaging it but letting it live
Use the 3 call to give them a scare
Or anything else

[limber hull]

meant to reply to this

[barren zephyr]

Ye, rn I can also pick someone up and put them inside a rock so they get stuck,

but it would still be super cool to eat them while they are alive

to assert dominance

[wispy trench]

Devs? Help please. anyone know a fix for game not installin? its missing .exe and stuck on launching executable in steam. the fixes i found didnt help

[valid zephyr]

how many omnis in a 'pack'?

[indigo flax]

20

[barren zephyr]

update windows, drivers, restart steam, redownload game, install game on second drive

it's not possible the game just doesn't install

[wispy trench]

got it sorted for now.. its downloading.

yeah it didnt give me an .exe file lol

clearing dl cache fixed it

[desert arch]

I would 100% rather regrow. If I dont, Im at a permanent disadvantage.
Also, this mechanic would allow deino to punch up to bigger targets, since reducing their weight makes them grabable if stacked enough. Permanent debuffs will never be fun, no matter how "light" the punishment is.
(Btw I would have absolutely 0 problem with this mechanic if it didnt apply a permanent debuff)

This reminds me of when someone requested spinos sail to be breakable with bites, causing permanent debuffs to the animal.
This is basically the same thing.

[barren zephyr]

Deino grab is determined by target weight not their HP, I suggested an HP penalty, I said it could be a locked HP penalty but the % value should then be higher (since it's not permanent)

[desert arch]

And thats all you needed to convince me

[tall hearth]

I played croc the other day on na4. You wanna know how many I saw JUST at center? 25. I saw 25 crocs, all different grow stages but most sub or adult. 25% of the server was JUST CROC at JUST ONE SPOT.

[barren zephyr]

NA built different I guess

[desert arch]

And I thought eu servers were bad

[barren zephyr]

Sometimes I see larger gatherings but they rarely last for any significant time

[desert arch]

The most I ever saw in one session was around 34

[barren zephyr]

the most I have ever seen in one spot was 12-14 but that was 6.0 in NW, 6.5 got rid of deino parties

[tall hearth]

When I get the time this week maybe I'll hop on beipi and do some croc head counts. I'm sick of seeing so many people playing croc doing nothing contributing nothing.

Gateway where are you

[barren zephyr]

maybe that shows how well deino is designed

[tall hearth]

We need you

Poorly designed. Why on earth should there be 25 crocs at center all surviving in unison

[desert arch]

Surviving is definetly too easy as deino

Also sustaining one as well

[barren zephyr]

It's well designed because so many like to play as one

the fact that 25 can survive in one spot means they are getting food from somewhere

[desert arch]

Ik center is a deathmatch zone with corpses everywhere but still

[barren zephyr]

biggest issue with dino balance comes from the fact that humans are controlling them

[desert arch]

25 deinos need about 3fg deino bodies every 90 minutes

[barren zephyr]

way more if you want to keep diets

[desert arch]

Make every dino ai
Tbh that was the og goal

[barren zephyr]

rn if deino does not get organs it can't keep up 3 diets

[desert arch]

Organs give lots of it

[tall hearth]

The only diet for deino that matters is the health regen diet, which I believed also comes from cannibalism

[desert arch]

As far as I know that issue isnt a deino only thing

[desert arch]

It does

Also center has weird juvi spawn points
Which means juveniles are constantly showering at deinos

[barren zephyr]

before you could spawn deino, sniffa some bones and have 50% growth, now u eat bones and you can't max out those 2 diets before getting full

[desert arch]

Cera has that issue too

Every dinos diet is scuffed atm

You have to be starving to get all 3 of the same nutrient activated

[barren zephyr]

they should decrease diet decay like 15% or so

[desert arch]

Or just give back diet gain from overeating

[barren zephyr]

both at the same time and in return increase hunger drain a slight amount

[sick crescent]

Not true

We need to wait til Rex releases to see this for sure

[barren zephyr]

I play deino 3 hours every day, it has to be good design to keep me playing

[sick crescent]

Deino isn’t well designed for the game as a whole

[barren zephyr]

I would rather say that deino has good design but everything else around it doesn't work well

[cyan flame]

Deino has a whole bunch of issues, so it could do with a good few adjustments, and most certainly something to make it properly difficult to grow.

[sick crescent]

*The most difficult playable to grow

[desert arch]

I played omni in u6 even though I died at least 3 times before reaching adult. All while it was the weakest carno out there.

If you like the animal itself youll play it no matter its design

[sick crescent]

Its kits unfairness is worse than Quetz

[desert arch]

Thats why were getting rex

[cyan flame]

Some way to react to a lunge, quick stop for eating/drinking, water clarity, shallow lakes and ponds where deinos can't live if they're too big, and so on

[barren zephyr]

it's probably the second hardest to grow to 100% rn

[cyan flame]

No, its one of the easiest.

[sick crescent]

It really isn’t

[desert arch]

Definetly not

[cyan flame]

Also combined with being one of the most poverpowered

[desert arch]

I just afk grew a deino today

While having a discussion here :p

[cyan flame]

So it's not a well designed playable at all, in general, croc/gator does not make for good gameplay, as we can now clearly see

[sick crescent]

Deino is overpowered in its design

[pale prairie]

growth time =/= difficulty.

[barren zephyr]

if deino is supposed to be an ambush predatoe but then you give land creatures a water fountain deinos will never get food

[cyan flame]

Because it's such an on/off interaction, but unlike irl, there's no way to dodge a lunge, while animals can react irl

[cyan flame]

You'll still have the occassional chances when they cross rivers, or just aren't at those ponds or lakes, and so on

You just need to, you know, not be able to be everywhere, so deino is properly limited

[barren zephyr]

biggest in the game, not overpowered

[sick crescent]

It is

[cyan flame]

No, it's overpowered

It's the playable with the most advantages out of anyone, aside from ptera

[desert arch]

Its mechanically flawed

[barren zephyr]

deino will starve to death before that tho, it needs insane hunger buff then

[sick crescent]

Deino presses ctrl and goes invisible, suddenly everything in the area can’t drink or else death, this is especially more the case in Gateway

[desert arch]

Ai fish are uncontested free food

[sick crescent]

Deino literally makes drinking water luck based

[pale prairie]

incredibly high health.
decent damage output.
1 shot ability useful on anything under 4T which from the sounds of things will be the entire official server roster.
infinite fish AI to eat while growing.
completely safe from all land animals while growing.

[cyan flame]

It is the largest, has a guaranteed kill move up to 4T, has massive bleed resist, can fight quite capably on land against anything but stego, can attack from point blank while being perfectly hidden, has an entire safety biome where nothing else aside from it's own kind can even touch it, can get into all kinds of trouble and land and still get away and negate a hunt due to water more effectively than anything bar ptera if it can fly away before dying. And so on.

[barren zephyr]

what I would do is make a "fog of war" kind of thing on land to limit how far and how well you can see stuff on land

[pale prairie]

it is without a doubt the easiest apex grow in isle history.

[desert arch]

No counter except "dont get lunged"

[sick crescent]

We need Rex to see how long Deinos popularity lasts

[cyan flame]

Overall, deino has far too much, far too good things going on for it, to consider it anything less than overpowered, especially when all of that comes while being so very easy to grow and sustain

[cyan flame]

I don't know, I feel lik that's kind of an arbitrary limit honestly

[barren zephyr]

deino is designed to eat water enjoyers but then people get mad when it eats water enjoyers

[cyan flame]

No, we dislike the fact that there's no proper counterplay, no actual interactions

[sick crescent]

Deino is also inherently a boring animal, on the scale of larger sauropods almost but not that bad

There’s a reason it’s called log sim

[cyan flame]

The only proper "counter" is "drink where a deino can't be hidden in the first place", which means you need those spots

[pale prairie]

actually, there are a lot of areas on gateway that deino simply isn't viable in.
from shallow rivers that adults can't hide in to ponds too far away from other water sources for deino to travel too - there's also areas along the large lakes with shallow banks that you can drink from.

unless there has been some significant overhauls to these areas in the last six months, which they may have been, there's still safe drinking spots on gateway.

[barren zephyr]

we have those

[cyan flame]

Which in turn, if you do have those spots, everyone goes there, deino starves, as you said

currently deino lives and thrives far too well on fish for that to happen

But imagine if we removed fish from deino diet entirely

[sick crescent]

The most safe drinking spots will be via weather

[pale prairie]

oh with droughts and whatnot, yes.
but even without them there are safe spots.

[sick crescent]

Spiro also has safe drinking spots especially in the general South of the map, doesn’t make Deinos kit any less overpowered

[cyan flame]

We do, but it does not make for good interaction, which is my point

Would be more interesting if there were no safe spots, but better counterplay to lunge instead

[barren zephyr]

but if you can counterplay lunge then nobody will die to it unless they have skill issue

[desert arch]

Water clarity my beloved<3

[sick crescent]

That’s kind of what I say

Deino being made a noob trap doesn’t sound fun

[cyan flame]

Just like any other playable and attack then?

[barren zephyr]

but then nobody will ever die to deino

[cyan flame]

If you react in time, you can dodge an attack

Just like with any other playable really

[sick crescent]

I would rather Deino not be in the game

But alas it is and resources were spent on it so

[barren zephyr]

only way deino can get food is by camping deino spawns or clicking lunge on drinker

I hear baby rapter ❤️

[cyan flame]

The point would be that you'd have to properly sneak up on, and attack the unaware or distracted, or just someone that seems desperate enough to drink to not be cautious enough, and lunge them. But you'd have to work for it, and a target that is aware and reacts to you in time can get away. Failed hunts are and should be a thing, for all playables.

[barren zephyr]

I have to work for a kill rn, if I am not looking 360 at all times and under water I will never eat

[sick crescent]

Failed hunts definitely exist for bad Deinos

[limber hull]

Can't wait for gateway to add FAR more "safe drinking spots" lol

Perhaps that's what Punch meant by "hitting deino with the difficulty hammer"

[sick crescent]

I never had a failed hunt in my time as Deino though besides the times I was trying to get a Cerato and this random Deino just came and ruined it lol

I witnessed two Deinos fail on my Teno herd yesterday, once at arch another time at northwest

[barren zephyr]

the server desync is rly bad sometimes, hitboxes super wonky, can't hit stuff

[sick crescent]

Tenonto jump can avoid Deino lunge so you just have someone block the whole herd

*While everyone is drinking

[limber hull]

That's barely going to happen on Gateway's COLOSSAL rivers

[sick crescent]

I know lol

[limber hull]

God those rivers are big

[barren zephyr]

but yeah, nerfing deino instead of fixing the rest of the game is a lazy thing to do

[sick crescent]

You can’t nerf Deino without making it rather unviable in some circumstances

[limber hull]

I mean, you can

[sick crescent]

You can still have it be viable, but also not

[limber hull]

And what needs to be nerfed is the whole "easiest goddamn thing to grow in the game" thing, not its adult stage

[barren zephyr]

they did, the move speed nerf is a death sentence for growing deinos now

[sick crescent]

Deino is a problem child

This is literally just at fault for being a crocodilian

[pale prairie]

the juvenile and sub stages are what need to be nerfed.
adult deino being as powerful as it is isn't really a huge problem if growing one in the first place is actually difficult.

this thing spawns in nearly three times larger than a beipi and doubles that weight in a matter of minutes.

[barren zephyr]

if you don't have cannibals then deino is easy to grow, if you factor in cannibals then it's the second hardest to grow

[sick crescent]

It’s hard to nerf growth stages without making them just boring

[cyan flame]

Eh, even if you fix growth and all that, the interaction itself is fundamentally flawed I'd say

[limber hull]

Well technically cannibals are also a factor in making it easy to grow

[sick crescent]

^

[cyan flame]

Also the 4T limit means most of the roster dies

[sick crescent]

It is the case with Cerato

[limber hull]

Organs, bones, nutrition meat

[barren zephyr]

how it make ez to grow when you respawn once an hour?

[cyan flame]

Sure, that might be fine powerwise, if deino had to actually work for it properly, not just sit right under someones nose and grab them

[barren zephyr]

actually well played if you are under someones nose while they come to drink

[cyan flame]

Cannibalism allows you to sustain yourself of your own kind indefinitly, this is part of what allows for megapacks

[cyan flame]

No, because you're invisible, and you make no disturbance, so there's no way to tell if you're there or not

[barren zephyr]

cannibalism makes growing harder for solo players

[barren zephyr]

do you think deinos spawn in front of you under water?

[cyan flame]

Hence, there should be more of a noticable sign if there is a deino there, or one trying to get close to get you, so you have something to react to, which would also help with the interaction because if the target has a chance to react, it's less likely to just try and go to a "safe" spot to drink

[cyan flame]

No, but you can move close to someone without problem?

[sick crescent]

I really didn’t see cannibalism be that much of an issue in either of my playthroughs on Deino and Cerato and I was a solo player a lot

[barren zephyr]

not rly, deino is fine, terrain is bad, no foliage near rivers to hide yourself while approaching water

deino can see you from 500m away and swim to you before you can start drinking

[sick crescent]

All that happened was I encountered a dead Deino body and it made me stay in the area for a long time and managed to kill some Gallis and an Omni

With give or take a few Deinos passing by

[barren zephyr]

like I said, I play deino 3 hours every day

not a single day goes by without seeing cannis

[sick crescent]

I mean same is said with Stego rn

[barren zephyr]

yes

[sick crescent]

Also funnily enough Tenonto

And Herbis currently are harder to grow and maintain optimally than Carnis

So why is Deino an exception when cannibalism is in of itself a benefit?

Megapacks don’t just kill solo Ceratos, I’ve been in one, snackrifices happen

[barren zephyr]

deino takes 10 morbillion hours to grow

that's why the problem is more impactful

[pale prairie]

@mild vale that is planned for all animals, not just apexes.
it'll be quite a long timer but still.

[mild vale]

Oh cool! I didn’t know

[sick crescent]

Pretty sure Stego growth is as long as Deino growth?

[pale prairie]

4 hours with a perfect diet

[barren zephyr]

it was very similar in 6.0, don't know about now

[pale prairie]

or to be more accurate it's around 4 hours and 20 minutes, yes deino and stego have the same growth time.

[sick crescent]

All I did was pretty much afk grow at Southeast on Deino, while Stego to grow that much actually has to travel into dangerous territory multiple times in its life

[barren zephyr]

I have not timed it but it feels longer this patch than before

[sick crescent]

And cross at least two rivers constantly

[barren zephyr]

you can sit SE and only eat sumac and marigold

[pale prairie]

i have, 4 hours and 20 odd minutes.

[sick crescent]

That’s also not optimally

[cyan flame]

Ah, for a moment I thought you meant deino didnt have foliage :p To be fair, foliage or something on the water to "sneak" in would be interesting for deino, instead of just muddy water where you cant see anything. In general, I just want the interaction of lunge, and what leads up to it, to be more interesting and challenging, especially for deino but also for the target.

[barren zephyr]

easy is not always fast

[sick crescent]

Also Marigold is luck dependent on if it’ll spawn or not in my experience

[barren zephyr]

and grass doesn't render past 10m so it's smooth green or brown shore, everything stands out too ez

[sick crescent]

Sometimes when it does spawn it’s outside the barrier

To get all three nutrients Stego has to venture from South to Center via SE

Sometimes people choose to go to Northwest via Southeast Canyon

[barren zephyr]

if ur going for 50% on stego ur a fool

[pale prairie]

another option is to get a friend to play galli and get them to deliver pumpkins to you at the swamp.
or, if you're lucky enough, random galli players might already be doing it, that's how i grew my stego the other day, random gallis were delivering pumpkins to me.

[sick crescent]

Making a point

Though you never disagreed so

[pale prairie]

galli door dash is a real thing.

[sick crescent]

It is, I have experienced it lol

Me and another Stego called it our servant

A mutually beneficial relationship

Gallis also can eat Pumpkins so it’s also relatively common instead of just being a rarity

Pachy has the worst growth still imo or at least rivals Tenonto

The thing has to grow at Center

The price of having all three nutrients so close to eachother

[pale prairie]

uh, no?
pachy grows in peace down at SW.

spawn center, eat agave until one slot is filled with S, run to southwest where you can reach adulthood and then switch to the 2 carbs 1 lipid diet from oranges/coconuts.
trust me, i play pachy all the time.

[sick crescent]

One time on my Pachy I spawned Northwest(for some reason) then just went to South of Center for stam diet lol

Idk what masochist plays Pachy in 6.5

South of Center is still best place for Pachy to get its nutrients since all three are so close to eachother

[pale prairie]

listen, ok.
it's still fun.
i'm not mad.
it's still fun.

[sick crescent]

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-crazy-stewie-griffin-gif-4247110

Cerato when it outstams Pachy lol

[pale prairie]

@lusty arrow you can get all your diet requirements from organs.
the problem with carno is that it has terrible stamina, agility, acceleration and a high stam cost on charge.

it's an ambusher with poor acceleration.
it's a plains runner with poor stamina.
it's a small game hunger with poor agility.
it's a mess, but its diet can be filled easily with organs.

[limber hull]

i love my survival depending on what my opponent ate!

[pale prairie]

2 carbs 1 lipid solves that issue

[limber hull]

2 carbs 1 lipid is a goddamn sin

[pale prairie]

truly fun gameplay.

[sick crescent]

Stam Diet is what causes that issue, Ducky

[limber hull]

i HATE stam diet so passionately

[lusty arrow]

That's the thing, how can I get organs if I'm barely capable of killing anything?

[proud coral]

I had a cool idea for what to replace the combo with but I forgor

[limber hull]

venom recovery or sickness recovery could both work

[pale prairie]

you're more than capable of killing things.
not only a young animals always an easy option, but carnotaurus is really good at killing ceratosaurus when alone.

[lusty arrow]

ceratosaurus when alone
Unless it has a buff...

[sick crescent]

Camp canyon, bodies are there all the time

[pale prairie]

don't fight over bodies.

[lusty arrow]

I needed food, it was 2v1, and the cera still won

[pale prairie]

most ceratos will want to chase you, let them, then turn around and charge + bite combo.

as long as you're not below 40-50% hunger you should be able to take it out with ease.

[lusty arrow]

I could only keep myself alive eating AIs and troodons

otherwise I would be fighting 3 Stegos or 4 Tenos or 5 raptors
ALONE

[limber hull]

i mean, carno in general is just bad atm

it needs a complete redesign by next update to adapt to Gateway

[pale prairie]

right, the only thing it's good at hunting is the thing it's not meant to be hunting.

[limber hull]

because, unfortuantly for ambush carno, gateway is a well-designed map

[lusty arrow]

They could've kept everything from before this update and maybe remove being a cani (?)

[limber hull]

honestly? Having U6 carno as it was, minus cannibalism and the hitbox, would be fine enough

[lusty arrow]

Agreed

[pale prairie]

the ambusher with poor acceleration.
the plains runner with poor stamina.
the small game hunter with poor agility.

[limber hull]

i mean, the poor agility is ironically the least egrigious of those things

[pale prairie]

carnotaurus is just a mess.

[limber hull]

with enough endurance, it'd do fine

[lusty arrow]

Yep

[limber hull]

because

• prey runs
• prey turns to make distance
• carnotaurus closes distance
• prey has very little areas to hide because of Gateway plains having exceptionally high visibility

[lusty arrow]

At the very least, the stam regen is doable

[limber hull]

a pursuit carno that constantly applies pressure to prey until they slip up is a perfectly valid design for the animal

[lusty arrow]

But having to stop during a chase to recover it is nonsense lol

[proud coral]

YES! That's what I was saying the other day in Isle discussion! A Carno who's encounters for smaller prey are like "OH GOD OH NO I GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE!" and they dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge until they either out endure the Carno, get to shelter/lose sight, or somehow have a way to fend it off. Or get got :3

I recall a situation like that looong ago in legacy where I was a Dryo having to do that exact thing and m a n was it fun

[limber hull]

almost like it's good for the animal

carno doesn't NEED agility to do well

what it needs is the ability to close any gap its prey can make between them

so the prey has to CONSTANTLY react to it, as well as the environment around it

[lusty arrow]

• prey runs
• prey turns to make distance
• carnotaurus closes distance
• prey manages to escape because carno is already out of stam

[limber hull]

yea which is bad

hence why i want pursuit carno

[indigo flax]

I want A-Train Carno

[drifting fossil]

Carno would be better as a glass cannon

[indigo flax]

vs omnis, it is a glass cannon

High Damage but Bleeds VERY quickly

Couple of pounces and it's Blood bar is dried

and I continue to see people complaining about Deinosuchus being overpowered

To clarify. Comparing Deinosuchus to Modern Day Gator/Croc is foolish. Deinosuchus outweighs, outguns and outsizes majority of smaller animals. It is meant to be very potent ambush killer

What can be done to prevent Deinosuchus from turning into a watery plague is reduce hunger gained from fish past Sub-Adult and increase growth time (like all apexes, so it is not just a matter of 3 hours before you see a bask of crocs/gators)

Adding Semi Aquatic/Aquatic Rival would go further into "Deinosuchus is op plz nerf"

[neat beacon]

Carno's movement feels extremely clunky rn, it's hard to catch things if they simply turn and with the stam it has rn any prey that can just turn will survive from it
really hope it gets buffed

[indigo flax]

What needs to be done is increased Charge Damage and adding more forestation

Carno is a glass cannon , transforming into a light bruiser after successful/failed charge

[cyan flame]

No thanks, I'd rather lower damage on charge, and make it more of a CC tool, to catch the prey and then follow up with bites.

Also yes, deino is overpowered, it's not really going to be less so even if it grows slower, because the issue isn't the growth, it's all of it's abilities and advantages that together make it such an issue

Carno needs to be given a proper niche/hunting style and designed for that, be it ambush somehow, or pursuit, or something else

[lucid mauve]

Like what? It got grab, remove that. And it would have nothing

[cyan flame]

Water clarity, potentially things on the surface of the water that can be disturbed by the deino. A quick movement to react to a lunge and possibly avoid it or mitigate it. Reconsider the massive bleed resistance perhaps, make it have to be on land (basking) at times to make it potentially vunerable. Limited water sources where a deino, at least a bigger one, can't reliably live and sustain itself, and so on. I'm not saying to remove the lunge, I never have, but the interaction needs more than what it currently has, similar to how pounce/buck is lacking as well, if not quite as much.

[indigo flax]

while giving deinosuchus obstacles in the water sounds very nice, adding quick movements for dinos would just defeat the purpose of being cautious. Bleed Resistance can stay, it doesn't need to suffer more

Instead of needing to click more, you just have to click one button moment you feel unsure. Limited enviroments would cause deinos to also suffer due to lack of food, because everything killable moved to an area with much more shallowness

I do agree it needs basking

it's a crocodillian. So I got an idea for it

by default, Deino should have terrible Stam Regeneration, but Tremendously Low Hunger Degeneration. Basking in the Daylight would essentially convert small portions of hunger into stamina

And It'd have to be long

Otherwise would defeat the purpose of it needing to go out of the water

Deino should have it's behavioral patterns simmilar to modern day crocodillians, but other animals should depend on player awareness and not scale how modern animals scale to crocodillians

It is meant to be overpowered. What it lacks is interactions, proper growth difficulty/longevity and painstaking weaknesses

[cyan flame]

Suffer? Deino does not suffer. The bleed resistance, combined with its massive weight and blood pool isn't really needed, it's pretty much impossible to bleed one out, even a large omni pack isn't much of a threat when it comes to that. And quick movement would reward the target that is paying attention, which makes sense. You're locked in vision, but you could still hear, or see, if you happen to be looking in the right direction, and being allowed to react to that, just makes sense, instead of being locked in an animation as currently.

And well, yes, it makes sense that deino is restricted, it should not be hunting everywhere. There should be spots where deinos are not the threat, because other things would be dangerous there instead. This whole "it's safe to drink water if there's no deino" is just not how it works, especially not with the camera lock. It would also make more sense if some of those spots are hard to get to, and dangerous, so it's maybe not worth going there, especially not if you're too big to move fast on land.

The overall issue with deino is that it's just far too easy to grow and sustain, combined with far too easy to survive as. Currently, nothing aside from another deino poses a threat to it (and cannibalism has it's own issues at that), everything else can be negated by just sitting in water. And the only thing properly providing any form of threat to an adult deino on land, is a stego, or maybe a megapack of carnos or ceratos these days, but that only really applies if the deino for some reason is so far inland it can't just go back into the water if it needs to.

[indigo flax]

If you want Omnis to defeat a Deino, then you think foolishly

Adult Deinos don't stick on land for that exact purpose

[cyan flame]

Why. People want omnis to hunt stegos, and rexes.

[indigo flax]

Sub-Adults and Juveniles, yes. Adults? Not so much

[cyan flame]

But currently, an adult deino on land, isn't really vunerable to anything aside from stego, or just massive numbers.

Oh no, people want omnis to hunt adult apexes

[indigo flax]

I was refering to Deinosuchus

[cyan flame]

But that's a different discussion really, just saying. My point was more so that deino does not need bleed resistance as it stands.

Not when it also have massive weight/blood, and the whole water safety biome

[indigo flax]

Once Deinosuchus Player enters full adulthood, land becomes their worst enemy

they avoid straying too far from it

[cyan flame]

Not really, well, aside from if a stego is there

Otherwise you can go quite far inland and be pretty much fine

Your biggest enemy being your very quick thirst drain, not whatever else is on land

[indigo flax]

Solution? What I suggested while Basking + Higher Thirst Drain

and Adult Deinos no longer stray too far from the land

[cyan flame]

Which is at least something. But it doesn't fix the inherently flawed interaction that lunge is, where the best counter is to not interact at all, but drink at safe spots. Which means you either need those safe spots all around, or you need some better interaction with deino.

[indigo flax]

If you touch the lunge, then Deino becomes obsolete

[cyan flame]

And it also doesn't fix deino being "immortal" to everything but another deino. Which has consistantly being complained about when it comes to stego, despite it being far more vunerable than deino overall. So it's strange that deino gets a pass to be perfectly safe.

[indigo flax]

The only viable solution is the water clarity + the obstacles in water

that would trigger the movement

[urban flax]

Lunge could be made into an ability that requires charge-up so people who pay attention have a chance to react

[cyan flame]

Quick movement, more water disturbance when the deino sneaks up, water clarity, and so on. Generally, a way to react so if you do pay attention, you can escape/survive.

Just like how you can react to anything else attacking you if you see it in time

But well, deino + water = invisible as it stands

[urban flax]

Currently it doesn't matter wether you pay attention or not when there's a deino around because it just appears and gets you instantly

[indigo flax]

That is something I can get behind

Devs could tone the blur that is the muddy water down slightly

so if you observant enough, you can see deino lurking about

[indigo flax]

The difference is the timer between attacks on land and deino attacks

[cyan flame]

I'd rather have some quick movement for eating/drinking, since we have quick stand up. Just let things react if they use their other senses aside from vision to notice an approaching danger. It's frustrating when you can see or hear something but you're stuck in an anim lock because, well, for no good reason really.

[indigo flax]

Attacks on Land can happen quite longer than couple of moments. Deino Attacks can go as fast as 1 second

[cyan flame]

But then I just want some form of action/reaction to things like lunge/pounce and so on. Not just a "I can see you before you attack", but a reaction that comes from "Did I see something/hear something".

More of a instinctive reaction ability I guess

[indigo flax]

If we want Deino to have better interactions, we should also give it a Death Roll, no?

It would not be absurd, because only 1 species of crocodillian (caiman) can't death roll

[cyan flame]

We could. I'm not sure what role it would have, but I'm not opposed to a sort of "grab and drag into water, then do death roll to kill"

[indigo flax]

Optional way to murder something in your clutches

[cyan flame]

Honestly, more than just one thing would be nice. Why I also don't think carno charge should be the be all/end all, but rather a start to follow up with something else

So you could have lunge to snag the target, then change to deathroll when it is in the water to kill it

[indigo flax]

You can grab something and drown it, wasting O2 and time

or grab the thing, keep on the water surface and deathroll to kill it

you do alot of noise, but you waste no time and less stamina

[cyan flame]

Sure, that could probably work too

Also puts you at some potential risk of being hit by your targets friends

[indigo flax]

Well, Once Croc deathrolls, only thing that can stop it is instantly kill it or it gets exhausted

attacks from other dinos would be obsolete

however, I do think Death Roll and Manual Drowning should not have stamina cost be in common

because Crocodillians waste alot of stamina death rolling

[cyan flame]

Possibly, depends on how strong deathroll would be made to be. I'd probably make it so that is the kill move, so drowning is no longer viable, and possibly require more than one roll to kill bigger things.

Mostly because manual drowning just isn't very interactive or fun

You just... sit there, on either side of the interaction

[indigo flax]

Crocodillians manually drow, as well as death roll

[cyan flame]

So I'd trade that for a direct damage deathroll, with the amount of "rolls" required scaling with size of target and so on

Yeah, but that does not mean it's fun or interactive

[indigo flax]

Death roll is used to kill and rip out chunks

[cyan flame]

And I'll care for that over outright realism

[indigo flax]

I'd say have both, but be different in mechanics

[cyan flame]

Fair enough

[indigo flax]

Manual Drowning (Less Stamina than Death Roll, More O2 drain, more time used)

Death Rolling (Assures quick kill, less O2 drain, less time used, more stamina used)

Escaping Deino should be impossible

or well, near miraculous

and we cannot compare modern day prey escaping modern day crocodillian, because Deinosuchus is massive like hell

Carno? Cerato? Tenonto? No matter, if you are caught, congrats, you're gator food

@wide lodge That is only useful for small dinos

Such puddles would only benefit something like 1 adult omniraptor and that would not even fill out alot

[cyan flame]

I'm not sure that's neccesarily good. Also keep in mind the current limit is 4T, that's a lot of the roster, including playables you're likely to have spent some time growing, just dying with no counterplay. Escaping if you're grabbed should be impossible unless your friends can save you, but avoiding being grabbed, should not.

[indigo flax]

Nothing can and should damage Deinosuchus enough so it backs off from the kill. Avoiding being grabbed should come from hearing and seeing ripples of water manifest, due to disturbance under water from Deino moving the plants and whatnot

Lunge should be Charged up, as Bulb suggested

[wide lodge]

And they need it the most

[cyan flame]

Sure, being able to avoid deino due to various factors are good, but I still think deino could be damaged enough, depending on what it's grabbed and how many others are around and so on.

[indigo flax]

Fair enough , I thought yer out here suggesting water should satisfy a stego kek

[cyan flame]

At least it depends on how large the deino in question is

Being that you don't need to be fully grown to grab most of the current roster

[indigo flax]

It'd be fine if it was sub-adult

[wide lodge]

Yeah, but even a little bit of water for a baby cera for example can be enough to sustain them until they find a larger, safer body

[indigo flax]

but Adult? Never

[cyan flame]

So that should at least be a factor

[cyan flame]

Depends on if we let it grab things like other apexes I'd say :p

[wide lodge]

Just to stave off dehydration

[cyan flame]

Since I'm sure some people would like it to do that too

There's the occassional deino should fight rex sentiment after all

[indigo flax]

Of course other apexes should be able to prevent deino from having an easy meal, but here comes a question

How many apexes do you expect for Deino to haul into the water?

Mainly 0

and if you enter Deino-Infested River, then you deserve death

not approach it, enter the water

still, approaching it is advised against

Regardless

[cyan flame]

Me, I'm in agreement with you there, I don't see deino hunting things bigger than it does currently, since 4T is quite the size. Just pointing out that there's those that want deino to grab stego and probably fight rex as well

[indigo flax]

While I agree (partially) with those who want to grab stego, I am against it having it easy vs Rex

[cyan flame]

And yes, going swimming across a large river, even as an apex, if there's two or more adult deinos there should be very much ill advised to say the least :p

[indigo flax]

Stego should be atleast draggable, but not grabbale

You drag the thing into the water if it thinks it can just drink with no caution

[cyan flame]

Last I recall, the sentiment was that stego would be the one doing the dragging, so I don't know on that one

[indigo flax]

Now, Stegos can freely turn backside to the river and drink, preventing any consequences

[indigo flax]

How would it do that lmfao? It is 2 Tonnes lighter than Deino

and every Kilo counts

[cyan flame]

Better stability on land, being heavy and strong enough. I don't know, but when the whole grab and drag thing/tug of war was talked about, it was said by the devs that stego would be the one dragging the deino, not the other way around

I don't think they intended for deino to hunt stego

[indigo flax]

Thats idiotic, to say the least

[cyan flame]

Well, that's what was said. Same with how spino will apparently just make deino swim away.

[indigo flax]

the "Stego being able to drag deino"

[cyan flame]

To be fair, we could get an upsized stego, in which case it'd make more sense as well

And at least I could see a stego do better than a rex, due to well, better stability with four legs and all

If we're talking purely balance/stability for being dragged

[mental nest]

question? are the servers down? i cant join any says they are all full even at 45 people

[barren zephyr]

stop trying to figure out how to nerf deino, it's already gutted, no need to make it any weaker

you aren't supposed to have any counterplay against an 8 ton croc

well, the counterplay is be careful

you die to anything on land and it's no big deal but as soon as deino consumes you it becomes problem

leave my baby alone

[cyan flame]

That just makes it a terrible playable. So that's a no go.

[barren zephyr]

deino is perfect, if you have problems then you need to adjust other parts of the game

[cyan flame]

Deino is by no means perfect, and it's hardly gutted. It's as powerful as it's always been

[barren zephyr]

did you not read patch notes? 6.5 gutted deino

[cyan flame]

No idea why you think deino is somehow nerfed, when it's not

[barren zephyr]

they took away everything that made it possible to kill stuff on land

[cyan flame]

How? You lost water sense underwater, which doesn't matter when you're hunting things on the surface. And you can't run with things on land, which also doesn't matter because you're not hunting on land, you're hunting from the water

[silent pebble]

?

as a deino why are you going on land? 😭

[cyan flame]

Are you... aware that you're not meant to kill stuff on land?

You're meant to hunt from/at the water/shoreline. And you can do that as well as always. Which also does not relate to the whole deino needing nerfs or adjustments for other reasons.

But if you for some reason think deino currently struggles, or is bad, much less "gutted", I honestly don't know what to say. It's still the most op playable overall, and only ptera is better when it comes to sheer survival

[silent pebble]

1. its still pretty impossible to escape deinos as is now, unless your stupid and dont have a good amount of stam as a deino
2. deinos should stick to water, they are aquatic dinos are theynot.
3. you could literally be sitting ANYWHERE as a deino, so its very hard to find safe spots to drink as of right now?

[indigo flax]

I mean, Water sense was double edged sword

you can't really hide as deino, but you could sense small stuff in the water

now you rely on your poor vision under water

[cyan flame]

It was, but it was never meant to work underwater I don't believe at least.

And you're meant to hunt the things drinking/swimming

[indigo flax]

fair point

[barren zephyr]

ye, when deinos get cannied it's part of the survival element but if deino catches stuff drinking from river after waiting for an hour it's op

[cyan flame]

Plus, wouldn't lack of underwater sense allow smaller deinos better escape abilities now?

Since you can't just see exactly where the little one is swimming or where it might have gone on to land

[indigo flax]

It's conflicting to me

[silent pebble]

?? who said it was overpowered...

[urban flax]

It's a problem because the only way to not get killed by a deino is to never meet a deino

[indigo flax]

For one, I like this, For second, perfect camo'ed fish can be a thing

[cyan flame]

It catching stuff isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of counterplay, plus all the other advantages it has, all combined

[indigo flax]

Night vision should be better underwater ngl

[cyan flame]

I did, and I stand by it, it is very much one of the best playables in the game overall

[barren zephyr]

btw, the sensing stuff drinking does not work well, most of the time drinkers don't touch water surface with their model, they don't trigger it

[urban flax]

Deino could be nerfed to 1 hp and 1 damage, as long as the lunge interaction remains that bad it's gonna be unfair and boring

[barren zephyr]

and it's still useless because just look above water

[cyan flame]

Yeah, that's fair. I know the pain of trying to see a fish in the dark and it doesn't move. But that does seem to be more of an issue with vision underwater in general

[indigo flax]

As much as I am not fanaticized by current Deino, naughtynigel brings a point here

[silent pebble]

stego and cera are overpowered, while deino is still very good i believe its meant to be, it is a very large dinosaur afterall

[barren zephyr]

you want to give counterplay when bro has been waiting for pray for an hour

[cyan flame]

I believe that someone did suggest deino camera lock so it has to rely on water sense, not sure how that would work out but

[indigo flax]

I have a list of changes for deino, but I am afraid people would just downvote it because "THIS SMELLS LIKE DEINO BUFF!11!!11!"

[cyan flame]

Deino is by far more overpowered, stego is nowhere near the same level. Cera is a a bit overtuned, but deino is by far the worst offender, and has been all the time pretty much.

[barren zephyr]

that would not work at all, btw, you can't see stuff above water while your camera is underwater, unless one specific angle

[cyan flame]

Yes, without a doubt. You're a gator, your entire gameplay is "sit here forever, occassionally jump out at something"

[silent pebble]

nah stego is also really good, my friend took on 3 deinos last night and came out with like 20%

[urban flax]

That's because the map is currently designed in a way that people aren't forced to die to a deino everytime they go get water
With, because of the way lunge works, implies adding spots of water where deinos can't go, so they never see anyone

[barren zephyr]

how is deino overpowered?

[cyan flame]

I don't know, it could probably be done, I'm not sure I think it's needed or should be that way, I've just seen that suggestion

[indigo flax]

Stego is the same level. If a player is good, only a coordinated pack or more than 2 deinos can kill stego

[cyan flame]

Terrible deinos, stego is not half as good as people think

[cyan flame]

Meanwhile, only two deinos can kill another deino

So no, deino is far superior overall

No matter your numbers, deino goes into deep water, fight is over

That, on it's own, makes deino the second best playable

[barren zephyr]

if 2 adult deinos fight the one who bite first usually wins unless it's skill issue

[indigo flax]

Mirror Matchups depend on skill

[barren zephyr]

so no, u don't need 2 deinos if ur good enough

[indigo flax]

Numbers already tip the scale, that comparison is irrevelant

[silent pebble]

well, yes.. deino is meant to be good in water

[cyan flame]

Highest weight/health/bleed, bleed resistance, safety biome, invisbility when attacking, lack of counterplay in it's main mechanic, can grow and sustain itself on AI and can do so very very safely.

[urban flax]

bruh they don't
Depending on the playable, it's just a matter of who attacked first and there's nothing else to it

[cyan flame]

Eh... depends on the mirror match

Also mirror matches weren't relevant to my point

Stego is vunerable to everything else on land, deino, is not, because it has a safety biome

The only actual threat to deino is another deino, not even stego kills deino unless the deino lets it

[barren zephyr]

does that mean deino is overpowered or is everything else underwhelming

[cyan flame]

Yes, but being good and being overpowered is not the same thing :p

[urban flax]

deino is overpowered

[barren zephyr]

I disagree

[cyan flame]

Well, if everything else is underwhelming, that does kind make deino overpowered

[urban flax]

I know

[cyan flame]

Sure, you can make the argument that the rest of the playables need things instead, but there's not much you can give them that "fixes" the issues with deino

[barren zephyr]

and what's the issue with deino?

[cyan flame]

Aside from adding something that can fight it in the water, as well as adjustments to the lunge interaction

[cyan flame]

Highest weight/health/bleed, bleed resistance, safety biome, invisbility when attacking, lack of counterplay in it's main mechanic, can grow and sustain itself on AI and can do so very very safely.

[urban flax]

The absence of counterplay

[cyan flame]

The issue is that it has all advantages, no disadvantages, and that it simply is not a good playable or fun to interact with, or even much to interact with if you're not a stego

[barren zephyr]

... deino is 8000kg of killing power

it can't hunt on land

[urban flax]

so ?

[barren zephyr]

you need to go near water once every 30 min

[cyan flame]

Also I more so meant there that 1v1, you can obviously win. 2v1, well I guess you can, if your enemies are not that good and you are, but if they are also good, you're kind of not winning that fight.

[urban flax]

Does that justify its only hunting strategy being a one-shot with no agency at all form the attacked player ?

[cyan flame]

Hence the comment was just saying that the only thing reliably taking out a deino is two or more deinos

Because they're the only ones that can actually get to a smart deino in the first place

[urban flax]

Even back when utah could kill stegos in one pounce, they could try to avoid the pounce, kill the raptor before it latches on them or buck it off

[barren zephyr]

forget about killing deinos, that's not an issue, they die often enough

[cyan flame]

Apparently. But somehow it does not justify stego being "powerful" :p

[urban flax]

The only counter to being snatched by a deino is drinking where a deino cannot possibly be, or being very lucky

[cyan flame]

To be fair, you didn't have time to buck then. If you got the full set of omnis on you, with the raw damage if that's when you mean, you'd die before bucking worked :p

[urban flax]

(that's because stego is herbivore)

[barren zephyr]

there are so many spots where deinos can't hide in water

why don't you use them

[urban flax]

Well I was talking about one single utah

[cyan flame]

Oh I'm sure people do, but I don't consider that good interaction

[urban flax]

You don't get it

THAT is the issue

[barren zephyr]

I do get it, you don't

[cyan flame]

Since the solution to the deino issue is "just avoid it", which doesn't work as well when you have to go drink, and also doesn't make it much fun

I'm guessing this is also why stego and rex and trike in part is on unofficials

[urban flax]

You complain deino wait for hours without seeing prey, but HTE ONLY WAY for prey to survive is to never go drink where there is a deino

[cyan flame]

Because well, the solution to any of them being full powered is "just leave the area"

[barren zephyr]

you have not offered any solution to improving deino counterplay without gutting everything deino has left

[urban flax]

I did

I said lunge could be made into a charge-up ability with a sound cue, so people can react if they're being careful enough
The idea is from wavepoole tho

[cyan flame]

Quick movement so you can react to a lunge and avoid/mitigate it. Water clarity. Things on the surface that can ripple/move, plus water ripples, as a deino moves. Having deino need to bask at times, plus maybe removing the bleed resistance so it's more vunerable overall. In general, you can make deino have to work more with better counterplay options to a lunge, as well as overall make it a bit more vunerable and harder to grow and sustain.

Or that, for example. In general, something to make it so deino is less of a RNG encounter

So it's less of a "if there's a deino here, I die, if not, I live"

[barren zephyr]

how would you change the lunge so that it does not become 1% success rate

[cyan flame]

@thorn rainYou realize trike and rex would only take stegos place, and be even more powerful, right?

[urban flax]

I said lunge could be made into a charge-up ability with a sound cue, so people can react if they're being careful enough
The idea is from wavepoole tho

Literally 2 messages above

[cyan flame]

We did just say. A charge up, or quick movement so you can react in time. In general, ways to counter, ways to go "I don't have to entirely avoid any area with potential deino to live, I can pay attention and survive as well"

Something to reward those that do watch and listen out carefully, and gives them a chance to react and escape

[urban flax]

Also make it so deino will have to think up about their ambushes instead of just going right click and win

[cyan flame]

I mean, if you land the lunge, you're guaranteed a win

So the difficulty should come from landing it in the first place

[barren zephyr]

I would first start with building a map that has a planned layout. You wouldn't need to get too close to deino territory unless you want some perk/ bonus/ reward

[cyan flame]

Unless we go with some of the ideas earlier and adjust how deino hunt, in which case there could be options

The problem Nigel, is that it does not fix the interaction itself

Sure, we can add more ways to just avoid, more safe spots to drink from, and so on

[barren zephyr]

the interaction is fine, that's why

[cyan flame]

But that doesn't fix the interaction itself. Any more than just using terrain fixes the pounce issue

[urban flax]

So the problem remains unsolved
Deino never ever see anyone
The people who don't know the map well enough die instantly

[cyan flame]

Well, we clearly disagree there

I think the interaction is one of the worst in the entire game honestly, even worse than pounce and that's something

[urban flax]

It's only fine if you play exclusively deino and never touched any other playable

[barren zephyr]

I have touched everything, I have died to deinos plenty of times, not once did I think it unfair, I always told myself i was careless

[thorn rain]

That’s why they should add a reward system for a Rex to hunt other Rexs maybe make them benefit their diet better than other things somehow so they have reason to hunt eachother, also you cannot say that it would take a stegos place because stegos right now as they are have no reason to hunt, it’s not like they are going to starve if they don’t hunt other players bc they are herbivores they just terrorize everyone like Apex predators they need something to be scared of that’s the point

[cyan flame]

I do like the idea of combining lunge/grab and drag into a deathroll for killing, if only because it sounds a lot more fun and vicious than just sitting on the bottom staring at the target until it drowns

[urban flax]

Then your way of thought is wrong

[cyan flame]

Would also make it slightly more interesting for the deino, doing something more than just grab and then sit and wait

[merry heath]

I'm not sure why there are so many fish in comparison to other ai, just seems like deino gets free experience

[urban flax]

The problem is not avoiding dying to a deino
Anyone with a minimum of map knowledge (or using vulnona) can do it
The problem is knowing the map is the only way of not dying to a deino

[cyan flame]

Give deino a charged defensive bite on land, remove lunging on land, and then add a deathroll to use while grabbing something in the water (could maybe apply the shake for thrashing bodies?)

[barren zephyr]

Only way I can see lunge being changed is if they make it a bit like carno ram: start moving slow, then speed up to significantly faster than normal deino sprint. You can steer the charge a bit and you grab the first target hit. It would have limited range or just very high stamina drain

[cyan flame]

What kind of reward would you give though? Cannibalism would just let rex thrive of their own all the time. And if not stego, trike would do the same thing. And rex would be far worse when it comes to terrorizing, since it'd be far more mobile.

[urban flax]

It makes it so the player's error is trying to touch water in an area where there was a silent and invisible threat that oneshots them before they can react
Considering this interaction fine is like saying being randomly killed by lightning when there are storms is fine

[cyan flame]

Well, people do like that lightning idea too xD

Oh and human snipers!

[urban flax]

I know
Sometimes this community really gets on my nerves

[barren zephyr]

But that would make getting back to water rather difficult so it should deal "one shot" damage

[thorn rain]

My fear is that when trex comes out it would be the only thing people play and having a ton of trex wouldn’t be fun for anyone so there should be a reason for them to hunt eachother to keep the population controlled, and I mean the population of BIG trexs

[urban flax]

So instead of needing to drown its prey deino just one-shots them
Not saying the grab is good, but that's removing the only thing that makes it a gator and not just a water rex

[cyan flame]

Oh I don't disagree there, just thinking what kind of reward would work but also won't make it worse.

[indigo flax]

reward could be better nutrients and hunger, but this would cause the hunger/nutrients to go down faster, forcing the cannibalism to be their main hunt style?

[barren zephyr]

It's very difficult to balance a creature that has only one way of hunting

[indigo flax]

After certain amount of cannibalisms of course

[cyan flame]

The idea of having lunge/grab and then follow that up with a deathroll for killing when in the water might work out quite well. Especially if you can combine the whole "thrash for organs" for it. So while you're in water swimming, you can thrash a grabbed target for massive damage. Instead of just sitting on the bottom drowning it?

[indigo flax]

I suggest keep the manual drowning, but also add death roll

[urban flax]

Hmm
I'd need to see how that would work out

[indigo flax]

You give one more option to secure a kill

A boring silent one, or funny, louder and faster one

[rare fractal]

A: It’d be better to have more rexes than deinos since rexes are easier to see and avoid.
B: Leave population control for apexes to the actual apexes like trike or stego, or pack hunters like allo or Omni. Deino doesn’t need to even entire the equation here

[indigo flax]

You choose

[cyan flame]

I know, we don't see eye to eye on that one, but I think that's okay. You prefer both as alternatives, while I prefer the option with more interaction over the one with less. I don't think we need to fight over that, it's very much personal preference here :p

[indigo flax]

Agreed

[cyan flame]

I do like the basic idea of the deathroll as a follow up, even if we don't quite agree on the options, which is why I brought it up again :D

[indigo flax]

D.Roll could be used to rip chunks and kill, cause crocs do it irl too

You give Death Roll more use and keep to realism

[urban flax]

The difference in balance I see with deathroll instead of drowning is that it gives deino more killing power against semiaquatics

[indigo flax]

win-win scenario

[rare fractal]

I’d hate that personally. Makes lunge effective against semi aquatics with the oxygen timer to survive lunge…which is honestly the only thing critters like Barry would have going for them. Drown is already an effective oneshot, no need to remove even more of its limits

[urban flax]

Because deino can't drown semiaquatics, but it could very well deathroll them

[rare fractal]

That’s basically what I was thinking

[thorn rain]

My argument doesn’t involve deinos at all I’m arguing against removing stegos from official servers and refusing to add apex Dino’s to officials besides having deinos as the only Apex

[rare fractal]

Which I think is profoundly lame

[cyan flame]

Hm, not sure how that would work out. I mostly worry because so far, cannibalism does not seem to have done what it was meant to do (keep population down, as we can see with deino, carno, and cera as well). So I'm not the biggest fan of just doing that. Maybe if it can be reworked to both be good but in a way that also doesnt allow for the species to just sustain itself on every other member without problem.

[indigo flax]

Fair point

[rare fractal]

Oh gotcha, yeah removing stegos but keeping deinos is a big mistake without something to replace stegos role in controlling them

[urban flax]

Cannibals shouldn't get nutrients from their own species
Just not get sick from eating their flesh
And they can still eat the organs anyway

[indigo flax]

Since I can't post it in suggestions, I'll write the options to give Deino more interactive gameplay

[rare fractal]

Nutrients really don’t matter when it comes to sustainability, which is deinos primary issue. It’s so sustainable because food is so readily available.

[lucid mauve]

But controlling what? A bully croc is fine, i dont care. Its not oppressive. If you die to a land croc, lol you deserve it

[rare fractal]

Land deino will be and always has been terrible for the game whenever it’s allowed to exist

[cyan flame]

True. Didn't quite think of those, I just like the idea of more interaction, rather than just grab and drown. But you could probably make it so A, the deathroll doesn't kill in one go, you might have to do more than one, and B, allow semiaquatic to drain deino stamina much more, so it just won't be able to hold on to them long enough to do sufficient amount of rolls to kill the target. Just like how it currently would be but with oxygen timer instead. You could even make it so drowning isnt viable even against most things, giving them better oxygen, or just have deino lose much more stam while grabbing something, so just sitting on the bottom is no longer an option for a kill.

[barren zephyr]

exactly, imagine getting hit by a parked truck

[lucid mauve]

Well we will get that in the future, a spino can prob bully

[cyan flame]

Well, people die to stegos... xD

[indigo flax]

Tremendous Increase in Stamina Drain, Thirst Drain on Land and Stamina Capacity, as well as Tremendous Decrease in Hunger Drain and Stamina Drain while Grabbing something.
Increased Growth Time By Hour/s for Both Best/Worst Diets.
"Basking", Only Day-Time Feature that allows deino to convert Hunger to Stamina.
Death Roll, Alternative Kill-Option which spends tremendously more stamina to quickly, but loudly kill something while on surface of the water.
Turn Lunge into a Chargable Ability with a Sound Cue once 100% Ready.

[rare fractal]

Right but it’s not actually an additional interaction, it’s just making the animation for the same interaction spicer and adding way more damage to it.
Like it makes no sense to me to even add it when it facilitates no additional mechanics for deinos gameplay as whether to death roll the target or not the result is the same. The only thing you really add is the potential for the grabbed semi aquatics to bleed out once escaped

[cyan flame]

I would change growth time to difficulty. Time itself only delays things, what we need, not only for deino, but for the other large critters, is proper difficulty in growing and sustaining.

[rare fractal]

Yes, and it’ll have a myriad of things to contest it as well….deino wouldn’t without stego in the current roster

[barren zephyr]

maybe make the grow time half a year irl, that's fair

[indigo flax]

Now you are being sarcastic

I've done nothing ,except give Deino more interactions

[barren zephyr]

at the end of the day it's still a game, players should not spend the whole day growing just to play

[indigo flax]

Stop attacking people blindly

[indigo flax]

You grow somethin g that actively ruins experience for anyone not cautious enough

I find it enough a reason for it to grow longer

[barren zephyr]

skill issue

[cyan flame]

Well, it would be an additional step at least? Like how you grab a corpse and then thrash it for effect. Didn't we once talk about the idea that deino would just grab, and then bite things to death or something like that? I'm just intrigued because the whole grab, and sit on the bottom of the river while the thing drowns isnt that much interaction. Compared to grab, swim out, thrash it to death over one or more rolls while you're on the surface. And do so before the stamina to hold it runs out, or something?

[barren zephyr]

<@&933486433342222376> he is calling me names 😦

[cyan flame]

Agreed. It should be less about time, more about difficulty.

[barren zephyr]

xD

[indigo flax]

I main Deinosuchus and I agree with most having a problem that deino is not exactly best balanced

But it cannot be simply nerfed

[barren zephyr]

deino needs no changes

[indigo flax]

It's Overpowered, because it was given plain kit

[thorn rain]

Well it’s hard to really think up a reward that wouldn’t be too overpowered but would also make it worth hunting other trex. And I was thinking that having a Dino that big must be hard to feed. I’m not sure how this would effect everything else but a full grown trex should need to eat A LOT. While having difficult catching up to more of the smaller and faster carnivores it would need to settle with fighting something the same size as it (other trex) or slower. I play carno a lot right now and one thing I’ve noticed is hunting as a pack of 5 -6 carnos does not keep you fed enough when you are full grown unless your constantly fighting groups of ceras. And carnos are fast ambush predators so it’s harder to escape them. I usually will only roll with 1 or two other carnos to manage the hunger easier, if I’m in a pack of 6 carnos either we end up separating or a fight breaks out. So a trex should have a battle with hunger where they get the most out of hunting in packs of 1 or 2 and/or hunting eachother

[cyan flame]

Yes, yes it does. It very much does, we've explained why, and we've given some, at least interesting ideas to work from.

[indigo flax]

It should be overpowered, because it has variety in it's kit

[barren zephyr]

it's not overpowered

[cyan flame]

It is, it very much is. You've been shown examples and reasoning on that account as well.

[indigo flax]

I don't say "overpowered" in bad way

in fact, I want it to stay overpowered, but not this plain as it is

[cyan flame]

It's the entire kit/all of the advantages together that makes it so, and we're working on how to adjust deino to work better

[pseudo copper]

Stay respectful when discussing, guys. Do not start throwing insults.

[barren zephyr]

you are only cooking up ways to make deino players quit the game

[indigo flax]

How is making Deino more interactive once adulthood is reached making people quit the game?

[cyan flame]

True, hunger could limit, if that works. You could apply that to stego and trike as well, preferably. But that would still make all three playables very strong and borderline untouchable to the rest of the roster, similarily to deino.

[cyan flame]

No, no we're not. I want there to be better interaction between deino and target when it comes to lunge. A more interesting approach and all that.

[rare fractal]

If the additional step adds no additional mechanics. The animal you have in your mouth is still grabbed, there’s still no engagement from them you’re basically just going through your button combos for a guaranteed kill.
What we talked about awhile ago about grab them bite us WAY different, the implication there being that deinos would only really be able to hold onto a target for a couple seconds before letting go, then needing to kill via bites..that actually does add an extra layer of survivability for the target. Death roll doesn’t it’s just a spicier version of drown so it adjusts nothing about the mechanic aside from the visuals as well as severely delegitimize semi aquatics, which I’m not a fan of.

The grab them bite idea is still a terrible one tbf, the counterplay is still skillless, and is entirely dependent on the deino missing or not knowing how to body block.

[cyan flame]

Just like how you'd hunt and stalk your target on land.

Because the fact is, accurate gator gameplay, does not make for fun or good gameplay

[urban flax]

Deino players don't want interactions, they just want to ruin other people's day.

[cyan flame]

It's just not a very good playable on that account

[rare fractal]

The only way to really make lunge interactions better is to make lunge as an ability way easier to detect and avoid

[indigo flax]

That feels like an insult to me

[rare fractal]

That’s basically it without completely removing its power

[indigo flax]

and I've been a victim of Stego Abuse for quite long

[urban flax]

most*

[barren zephyr]

once you drop the creature it's taking off unless you give it impaired movement, deino can never catch it on land

[indigo flax]

Anyways

[rare fractal]

Once you drop the creature it has to swim back to the shore before it can escape. If the deino has half a brain it’ll never even get halfway there

Cuz you can body block and otherwise dps it with bite till it dies

[cyan flame]

Oh yes, that's true. This was only related to the way deino kills, not the whole "how to avoid/counter being grabbed in the first place". But true, bite would be more like you describe. Though maybe we could apply the "deathroll" as the replacement bite there instead. But true, we'd need something better anyway. But ideally, we need the counterplay to being grabbed/lunged more than anything else. Being more or less dead when grabbed, can be argued to be fine depending on target (and you could probably adjust for semiaquatics in some way, no?)

[indigo flax]

Eh, I still don't see a reason for Grab&Bite

[barren zephyr]

I literally spent 3 hours on a rock pressing F to pay respect to everyone that came to drink

[indigo flax]

Invalidates the Death Trap that is getting dragged by Deino

[barren zephyr]

wait, how did it get into water in 2 seconds, it takes deino much longer to 180 and drop it in water

[urban flax]

your point being ?

[cyan flame]

To be fair, most deino mains, well, they don't seem to understand how good they truly have it. So we might be a bit jaded on that account. You can single kill anything in the roster currently aside from grown stegos, that you can avoid if you have half a braincell. And yet most deinos still complain about somehow being 3v1 killed by a stego, however they manage to achieve that I don't know.

[indigo flax]

Death Roll being spicier way to kill just sounds unfair. You chase off anything else , by quickly killing something

[indigo flax]

I don't have anything against this, but without the "most" I felt insulted

[rare fractal]

Yeah I don’t mind grab being an instant kill if lunge is stupidly easier to never die to.
It’s an ability that’s fundamentally flawed in this game with how it currently functions. No oneshots should be risked by players that don’t choose to engage with the thing applying them. Like a stego or rex, you always know where those are they’re impossible to miss.
Deino just needs the same treatment. Balancing lunge by reducing its power just doesn’t work because it fundamentally cripples deino without kill confirmation

[indigo flax]

Fair point however

[cyan flame]

Fair enough!

[indigo flax]

Lunge is something that cannot be touched, only made more versatile

You may not have fun when you get grabbed

but thats fate

[rare fractal]

What?

[indigo flax]

The only thing mattering here is how Deino feels

[barren zephyr]

deino feels sad because rapter didn't want to eat with him

[rare fractal]

Dying to lunge just being something that randomly happens is a terrible way to balance the animal

This is a multiplayer game after all

[barren zephyr]

it is not random

[indigo flax]

Then what do you suggest? Making it more skill based, because victims feel bad?

[rare fractal]

It’s literally not dodgeabke

[barren zephyr]

rivers are designed in a way where deinos can see from across the map if someone approaches the river

[indigo flax]

Only thing that can be done is made with a wind up

[rare fractal]

Yes….what’s wrong with the animal with the lowest skill floor and ceiling requiring more skill to be successful

[indigo flax]

and given a sound cue

[barren zephyr]

that's the only reason deinos can be right in front of you when you press E to drink

[cyan flame]

True. Though I don't think I mentioned reducing its power, more so how long you could grab on to something, the whole semiaquatic issue. As in, you can't hold on to one of those long enough to drown them due to oxygen. With a deathroll kill move, you'd just scale the damage needed, plus how difficult it would be to hold on to the target so you can deathroll, replacing the "oxygen" but doing the same thing. So Im not sure it would invalidate semiaquatics like you seem to claim, any more than current lunge/grab and drown would.

Well, ideally both sides of the encounter should feel that it's fair and fun, more or less, no?

[indigo flax]

Sadly, not a reality for Deino Victims

[barren zephyr]

But yeah, 500kg raptor agains 8000kg deino will never be fair

[rare fractal]

Reducing its power would be reducing its duration as that means it can’t be used for drowning.

And again the death roll only adds additional damage the semi needs to deal with on top of the 500 they just took from lunge. It’s just completely unnecessary

[rare fractal]

It literally has to be

You can have a literal meta playable in a game like this that has an effortless instant kill move on any animal they’re forced to engage with

[thorn rain]

The growth cycle could be increased to take a long time allowing for land predators to have a chance to hunt them before they get to full grown where at that point it would be too much for them to handle. And then once this happens Trex battle with hunter and yea they will be a terror to other land Dino’s but that would be the reward for them surviving that long at which point other trexs are their biggest threat. It’s just that hunger needs to be enough of an issue to really force trexs to pick fights with one another. At the end of the day it’s a videogame so your going to get the occasional group of 3 trexes working together because they are friends on discord but the thing is that they will all be struggling for hunger anyways and with three T Rexes they would pretty much always be needing to hunt other Rex or stegos and trikes to prevent starvation.

[indigo flax]

You touch how lunge behaves, you invalidate Deino's Kill. You stay as it is, which is instant kill, victims complain

[lucid mauve]

No ? fair fights is not an option you choose, your galli your dead to a ambush carno.

[indigo flax]

Damned if you do, Damned if you dont situation

[rare fractal]

Make deino absurdly easy to see, problem solved

[indigo flax]

Improbable due to uncleanliness of the waters

[barren zephyr]

put christmas light on it

[indigo flax]

less muddy would be a solution

[rare fractal]

Make water clearer

[indigo flax]

but not crystal clear

[rare fractal]

Wouldn’t be a problem if it was with underwater foliage

[thorn rain]

I’m confused what’s this deino convo about? Like what is the issue y’all are discussing I’m curious

[rare fractal]

But sure

[indigo flax]

thats is what me and erik suggested

[cyan flame]

Well, you wouldnt drown if you thrashed for kill damage instead. Im not sure I see the issue you seem to see there. At least not if we're talking the whole semiaquatic and oxygen thing. I'm basically advocating for replacing drown, which is stationary, with thrash to kill with damage? Adjust everything as neccesary?

[indigo flax]

but instead of hiding in it, you cause ripples on the water if touched by deino

[cyan flame]

You die to an ambush carno, you're just bad. But I did not say fair fight, I said fair and fun encounter. There's a difference.

[indigo flax]

forcing deino to avoid underwater obstacles

that already should make deino slightly more skillfull, no?

[cyan flame]

It should, yes.

[indigo flax]

because if you dont see the ripples, skill issue and you deserve to die

[rare fractal]

The result of both a thrash kill and a drown kill are the exact same. The animal dies no matter what.
Adding additional damage to an attack that already instant kills everything deino is supposed to kill with that just adds insult to injury on anything designed to survive it

[lucid mauve]

Ive killed a few gallis, and honestly if they would litterly need to cheat to see me thru the bush. Its not bad play for them, its called balance.

[pale prairie]

but then what will deino do?
if it was to keep its current stats, sure, but why not go the better route of increasing its growth difficulty? it's far too easy to grow and is far too powerful in its younger growth stages.
for god sake, it spawns in three times larger than beipiaosaurus and doubles that weight in minutes - ceratosaurus is meant to hunt it but it spawns in with more health than ceratos biteforce and again doubles that in minutes.

make it spawn smaller and stay smaller for longer, reintroduce schooling fish to its diet during this time, that way it'll actually have threats (beipiaosaurus and in shallow areas ceratosaurus) - finally introduce baryonyx.

hunger drain and/or food intake needs to change too.

[indigo flax]

Deinosuchus is an aquatic monstrosity. It has barerly any rivals in adult hood, only predators while early in life

Spino in water would give itself a death warrant

because one Death Roll to the neck, congrats, your dying

[cyan flame]

Yes, I know. The only reason for that one was to make the whole death "cooler" I guess. It wasn't related to how to avoid deinos in the first place. But since you mentioned the semiaquatic thing, I'm trying to clarify. Also it would no longer instakill with drown, that's the thing. You'd adjust so you don't have stamina to drown, so you have to grab and thrash to kill. If you just try to drown, you'd run out of stam before the target runs out of oxygen. I merely want to replace a rather stationary and boring kill method with something that seems cooler. That's a different thing from making deino lunge in the first place easier to avoid and handle, be it for a terrestial or semiaquatic critter to avoid and escape.

[pale prairie]

deinosuchus during adulthood (or at least during early-mid elder) should absolutely be as powerful as it is now, if you make it as easy to see in water as you suggested, you rob it of that.
just make it difficult so only half decent players ever reach that point.

[indigo flax]

Exactly my point

[cyan flame]

I still think a quick movement to stop eating/drinking would be helpful there, so you can both actually see, and react. Instead of being stuck in camera lock/eating/drinking anim.

[cyan flame]

... The fact that they were that close to the bush that hid a fully grown carno in the first place is the bad play. That should be obvious.

[indigo flax]

I disagree with you on quick dodge, but that is personal opinions and I respect it

[cyan flame]

Well, in the game, spino has been said to make deino flee in fear. So your option vs spino is to not engage it and swim away, or so the devs have said.

[indigo flax]

I saw a video of Spino not entering the watery area Deino was in

[lucid mauve]

I was in the bush before they even could have seen me, since i saw them coming up a hill. They would never see me. Its called ambush/caught off guard. And its gonna be alot of that,or you want pot fights? Where you walk around and look at eachother and calculate whatever fight you gonna end up in

[indigo flax]

it was national geographics type of thing

so it wasn;t just some random blabbery

[cyan flame]

I'd say a bit of both. Yes, it should be difficult as can be, but you do need some proper counterplay, it should not be controversial at all. Power is not the same as the ability to effectively use that power. That's something to keep in mind.

[cyan flame]

I mean... this is a game, it does what it wants... :p

[indigo flax]

but I dont mind Spino being an equal/slightly more powerful rival

[lucid mauve]

Deino is not strong,it got nothing on bigger animals. You think your 500 biteforce gonna do something vs a spino ? You would need like 20 hits

[pale prairie]

of course.
out of curiosity, do you remember how visible deinosuchus was in the lakes/ponds on gateway? they were much easier to spot than the muddy rivers of spiro without going as far as fluffs suggestion.

[indigo flax]

Fair point

[cyan flame]

You're missing my point. They did bad because they did not take into account something could be hidden in there. Ambush sure, but carno is bad at it, so that was entirely down to the gallis being dumber than doorknobs. Also what does PoT have anything to do with it? But yes, I do want some more calculating in fights and hunts in general, you know, more difficulty added to it.

[cyan flame]

Well, it's been said it will be more powerful and deino will swim away. If it will end up like that, I don't know, but that's how it was meant to go. Same as the whole stego dragging deino.

Realistic or not, it's a game, and will be balanced accordingly.

[rare fractal]

If it literally adjusts lunge in no statistical way it’s fine, since it’s just purely aesthetic.
The problem with buffing lunge by adding thrash to it is that it only buffs deino in engagements it’s already supposed to perform poorly in

[lucid mauve]

You cant take into account that, you cant see over hills. I was in the right time at the right place, i saw the first.

[cyan flame]

Not really. I mostly stayed at that one "teno lake" and I don't believe we met any deino there, or if we did, it was Hypernova who had the encounter. I know the water there was quite clear, so that would work. I still think a bit more options could be neccesary, deino should really only be a threat in big rivers, it doesn't need to be the threat at every water source (despite peoples beliefs, it's not safe to go drink, other predators do exist...). I don't know how far Fluff wants to take it, but there definitely needs to be some proper counterplay and not this "RNG" death we currently have.

[cyan flame]

It's literally just replacing drowning death with thrashing death, from how I intended it. So not sure how it buffs at that point, when it's just a replacement kill method?

[cyan flame]

... You can absolutely take into account when you see a big bush that "There could be something in it, lets not go too close to it"

[lucid mauve]

Well, sounds like horrible balance. You can cherry pick every fight, sounds horrible

[cyan flame]

That's called being aware of potential ambush spots and acting accordingly

[rare fractal]

The original idea included additional damage and bleed. If it’s just aesthetic it’d be neat

[cyan flame]

What? It's horrible balance because I want fights to potentially include more thinking and planning? :p

[lucid mauve]

true, but it could also be something in the 3 other bushes. And you need to walk one place

[cyan flame]

Not the idea we've talked about this time around, bleed wasn't mentioned. And damage, yes, but it would replace the drowning, not add to it. Or so was my intention at least.

[cyan flame]

So you need to be aware and careful, and choose your path.

[rare fractal]

Oh so oxygen timers would get buffed globally? Cuz I don’t see a problem with that

[lucid mauve]

Yea, cus you have dinos designed in diffrent ways. Omnis , can pick and choose. Sucho prob not, etc

[cyan flame]

You said you got the jump on some gallis hiding in a bush, and I'm saying those gallis were kind of dumb, and should have seen the bush and gone "We don't want to be close to that, lets stay in the open", like the gallis they are

[cyan flame]

And you couldn't adjust for that? I'm not sure how this is even bad balance to just say I'd like more overall planning and hunting and so on, than outright fighting?

[lucid mauve]

Exactly, but its still a survival game. You can be hunted, without knowing it. If the hunter makes the right calls and actually play it smart. And make sure you dont see him, well played from his part

[valid brook]

Had a ping. We all behaving?

[cyan flame]

That, or just massive drain so drowning doesn't work. The entire point was to simply replace "I grab and drown you" with "I grab and thrash" you. Purely because I think it sounded more fun and interactive than drowning. :p

[cyan flame]

Of course. But you made it sound like they did not take into account that you could be hiding where you were.

Which is on them for not thinking about that.

[rare fractal]

Yeah that’s fine. I wouldn’t say it’d be more interactive, just more aesthetically pleasing

[lucid mauve]

Cus some will have much better fighting abilities then others, some will be much better at hit and run fights. And some would like to end the fight fast

[valid brook]

ill take that as a yes. lol

[cyan flame]

Which would still be part of planning and thinking about how to go about to get to that point. :p

[barren zephyr]

they want to nerf the only thing I play

they don't realize it's fine rn

[cyan flame]

"Where you walk around and look at eachother and calculate whatever fight you gonna end up in" you said this. And I mean, do you not want players to actually think about and calculate a little on what they're getting themselves into, be it vs another player or environment or something?

[valid brook]

well, they have the right to state their own opinion

[agile roost]

What Dino?

[indigo flax]

Deino

[cyan flame]

Now, I don't know exactly how PoT works, been far too long since I touched it, but the whole "calculate" and be cautious, possibly looking at each other if it's an open fight and going "Hm, how do I go about this", seems good to me?

[rare fractal]

Well I mean…deino has been the strongest animal in the game since it was added and it’s mechanics literally lack counterplay…so yeah

[agile roost]

Alright

[cyan flame]

Because deino isn't fine. And it's not so much nerfs as adjustments to be honest

[lucid mauve]

Yes, but its not fun for me getting ambushed by a rex. I didnt choose that fight, the rex did. I simply didnt see him

[cyan flame]

Which would imply you did not quite think things through, or weren't careful enough, and so on?

If you make mistakes, and the hunter capitalizes on that, that's fine. Which is why I said it was on the gallis for making the mistakes they did

[barren zephyr]

deino is fine, there are 10 morbillion better things u could discuss

[lucid mauve]

Ofcourse, the rex would deserve that food no doubt about it. But as you said, fights should be fun. Not all will

[agile roost]

Isn't that the whole point of an ambush?

[pale prairie]

actually there are 10 morbillion deinos on any given official server, which is all the evidence you need to see there's a problem.

[lucid mauve]

yes, but he said fights should be fun and interactive . But you dont get to choose all your fights

[barren zephyr]

If an hour or more of waiting does not result in a guaranteed kill, oof

[rare fractal]

It’s kills being rare doesn’t justify how awful it’s mechanics are

[indigo flax]

make it more difficult to play and give it more mechanics to sustain itself and you will see the numbers drop in a good way

[barren zephyr]

overpopulation is a myth

[rare fractal]

Heheh

[agile roost]

Yeah

[pale prairie]

[cyan flame]

I said encounters should be fun and feel "fair", as in, you should feel like you could have done something to survive. Deino currently is "RNG", it's there and you die, or it's not and you live. Unless you do the one thing you can do, which is go to a safe spot, thus avoiding the interaction entirely, which I find to be boring, bad design, and just not good when there are options to make the encounter better. Such as being able to juke a rex, or outstamina it, or something, instead of going "Just avoid the biome rex lives in". Does that help clarify it?

[rare fractal]

Deino is the most played animal in the game lol

[pale prairie]

wait a moment, i'll get your myth.

[rare fractal]

Demonstrably

[cyan flame]

Uh, no it is not.

[agile roost]

I don't blame the people who play them. It's the only largest carnivore in the game

[barren zephyr]

deino is the most handsome looking, that's why

[cyan flame]

It's a river worm! xD

[indigo flax]

You play Deino, because you want to be overpowered. I play deino because I want to play an accurate crocodile in a survival game.

We are not the same.

[cyan flame]

And most of the deino players have the same braincells as fish, considering how they take the empty bait that is a stego thagomizer :p

[agile roost]

🥹

[lucid mauve]

Yes i agree on that, rng is not fun. I was talking generally on others dinos. But i wouldt call it luck or not, if i walk around and something ambush me. If you dont see it, your not doing any mistakes.

[barren zephyr]

I play deino because I want to make friends with other carnivores, if I was a raptor I would only be a meal

[cyan flame]

I have to applaud you for enjoying the accurate gameplay. Then again, I used to play rex very similarily back in the day, so I do get the appeal of waiting in a spot for just the right moment to jump out at something :p

[rare fractal]

It’s also the easiest animal to play by far, so that helps

[pale prairie]

there's a really neat community server called "petits pieds" that has some incredible server tools, one of which shows which animals are being played at any given time.
this is what their player spread was before they limited deino populations.

[agile roost]

Oh yeah, for sure. It just gets boring sometimes

[lucid mauve]

I play deino because i dont need to rely on packs and kids writing every 10 seconds in chat, lets kill something

[barren zephyr]

accurate crocodile will 100% kill something 10x smaller

[cyan flame]

Yes and no, if you don't see it, you kind of made the mistake of not planning for that, not going "I can't see much here, I need to be extra careful" or something like that. You do kind of get what I'm saying here, right? If you are in a spot where there is cover, you need to take that into account. I mean, just look at how many die to the ravine every day xD

[rare fractal]

It literally would

[cyan flame]

"Oh, there's bushes and very low visibility, let me just run at full speed anyway"

With that said, the ravine is not fun or good map design, or at least the bushes hiding it aren't :p

[cyan flame]

Best solo hunter in the game!

And sometimes it is nice to just chill :p

[lucid mauve]

Yea im not saying that, i get your point. Ive died alot, for just beeing dumb lol.

[barren zephyr]

maybe make it so I can pick a land creature and not die to AI

that's what u need first

[cyan flame]

Fair enough! I would like it if the game was a little more about survival and caution and less just "can I fight/kill this" xD

[lucid mauve]

It is, i wish i could choose something else tho : P

[pale prairie]

the boar?
just avoid the boar, they make lots of noise.

[cyan flame]

We'll get there, I am looking forward to herrera and kentro!

[pale prairie]

most animals can outrun or kill them within 20 minutes of spawn anyway.

[barren zephyr]

Change terrain in a way thatu can't see more than 50m ahead

[cyan flame]

Maybe herrera might be decent solo, unless they turn it into a pack animal too

[cyan flame]

To be fair, the boars are pure evil!

[pale prairie]

definitely, but they should be the least of your issues.

[lucid mauve]

Yea maybe, but normally you need to play something bigger. Atleast if you wanne kill/defend yourself etc. I tried omni, not good solo. But totally agree on that

[barren zephyr]

if youmake land creatures more fun players wouldn't need toonly play deino for a. O deaths evening

[rare fractal]

?

You mean like making land critters more fun would then reduce the motivation to play deino for its easy power fantasy?

Cuz that goes unchanged

[barren zephyr]

average baby on land survives 5 minutes solo

who would want to try 20 times just to reach adult and then still die when something looks at u funny

[lucid mauve]

What baby survives 5 min on land ?

[barren zephyr]

a good solution would be to add tons of ai on land, something that actually behaves like an animal, not a human piloting an animal

[pale prairie]

a bad one

[pale prairie]

you were made about dying to AI just a few moments ago, wouldn't this only make that problem worse?

[barren zephyr]

average player is so bad u can't tell if tbey have more than 2 fingers

idk, I was supposed to be asleep 20 minutes ago

I'll go to sleep, u stop cooking

gn

[small sequoia]

Making AI "behave" like a human player is impossible

Its just not doable

Not in this game

[lucid mauve]

Does stego oneshot a troodon ? With bite lol

[small sequoia]

I havent tested it out, but you can assume so

Stego is like 6 tons? Thats an easy 1shot

[pale prairie]

only if it's a head shot.

stegos bite does 50 damage iirc, troodon weighs 60kg.

[river wraith]

Evrima server EU7 keeps having ping up to 400?

Sometimes it goes down to 100 or 80 but then it goes up again

[lucid mauve]

ahh ok, thanx : P

[barren zephyr]

how are people downvoting increased daytime 😭

[small sequoia]

They've probably got a million requests for doing daytime longer, surely they know about it tbh

[barren zephyr]

oh i just assume its people disagreeing

[kindred blaze]

Why dont they just release dinos on evrima ? Aren't we all waiting for them ? Is there anyone that is waiting for Humans ? 😦

[small sequoia]

Developers are slow, thats just the way it is

Humans are so far down the road, dont even think about it

[kindred blaze]

But they already waisting time on humans !?

[desert arch]

You mean the humans that crash the game for everyone around them when they die, thus had to be removed from the game? :p

Also the devs that work on human stuff DO NOT work on dinos.
So it isnt slowing development time, it even speeds it up.

[loud moss]

@buoyant dove I like the suggestion, about having trails of blood. It would be very cool to see some sort of blood thirsty raptor pack, with the entire surrounding area covered in some sort of crime scene, but no raptors to be seen because they're hiding. Very nice

[valid brook]

@loud moss ahh the save slots mechanic. I've played PoT before which has that type of a mechanic and i just dont enjoy it. It can lead to more toxicity, people dying in a fight, coming back as the another dino to either bully the person who killed them or talk smack, and it leads to the gameplay of "oh this dino is here, let me log onto X dino in order to make the fight even easier for me" and what not. not only that but it would remove some of the punishment for dying, especially if you can just log onto another FG dino and continue going on

[loud moss]

Ok that makes a lot of sense. What could fix the "getting revenge" problem? I suggested a cooldown between switching, but even I see problems with that. Also I see now the whole "I'll switch dinos to have some fun hunting this group" thing

[valid brook]

thats a good question, unfortunately i think anything that lets you come back FG will have that involved. i think how it is currently is the best way to handle it. either that, Or maybe let you select a dino one login but when you die, you have to pick a dino to regrow, and cant play a new dino until it's fully grown. but then it's almost a "whats the point"

[loud moss]

I'm just so annoyed that I have to switch servers everytime I want to play a different dino. It especially sucks when you don't want to lose your fg dino, but also don't want to wait 20-35 minutes in a queue just to learn that server is bad as well

[valid brook]

yeah thats fair. hopefully in a months time the devs will either add more servers, or the playerbase will die down back to it's normal amount

[loud moss]

Maybe something to where you can't save a fg? Maybe only subs and below? But then it's the same problem as if you could only save fgs, what's the point? I just want to go from "I'm bored of playing deino" to "maybe stego sounds fun" in a couple seconds or minutes

Idk I'm just ranting at this point, thanks for your perspective tho

[desert arch]

I dont see the appeal of making humans purely prisoners, at that point just make them AI. Also it wouldnt entirely "fix" the balancing issue that humans have, it would only delay the problem.

Balancing humans could be done in 2 different ways:

1. Make guns do less damage/no super long ranged weapons.
   OR
2. Make guns acsessible, but make ammo so rare that if a human uses a gun to kill something for fun its unable to defend itself later on.

In short afking until you can enjoy humans doesnt sound that fun.

Oohh
I thought you meant prisoners to tribals or something

Totally misunderatood then

We already have the eyeless for that though

Cannibals

Wait ill try to find a concept art

Dondi secretly dropped it in the lore theories channel

Gen 1 humans

You basically described their gameplay

Theyll use primitive weapons and tools

Also they are pretty strong
One of the concept art shows an unarmed eyeless taking on a carno, raptor style

Not really

But we are getting into lore territory here

#isle-lore-theories has a lot of tribal stuff in it rn

Along with these concept arts

I advise you have a look, I think youll like it

Np gentlewoman

[agile roost]

@thorny lynx did they bring back the "Carnivores" soundtrack?

https://youtu.be/Lo1MbxnQOkQ

[proven fossil]

what do yall think about giving envenomed creatures temporary vertigo or some sort of impairing effect so that creatures like trodons have a chance to actually be deadly

also thoughts on having the ability to poo?

[proven fossil]

who do these sexy toes belong to?

[desert arch]

Tribals/eyeless/cannibals

Also:

[desert arch]

I feel like troodon is already good enough as it is
Coordinated troodon groups shred

[desert arch]

Could be good if done right, but the community will very quickly do some... questionable stuff with it

Thats why no customizable skin patters either

We cant have nice things

[desert arch]

The only thing I would do to buff troodon is to fix its camera and reduce some creatures nv

[still monolith]

Na7 ping needs to be fixed

[silk echo]

This could be considered feedback, but i think it could be added on to the gore system down the line. Now before I say anything, this is just an idea and I am aware that advancing the gore system isnt a priority right now, it's just a thought: This mechanic would be similar to thrashing, except for larger bodies and would include the brain organ. The player would hold G to use the drag (It wont fully pick up the corpse, it will drag by the neck), then, they would use the same binds as thrash (hold lmb while shaking screen) and it would rip the head off the corpse. This would supply the player with the head and the BRAIN, which would offer it some unique combo of diets (idk havent worked it out yet). Maybe smaller players would need more than one group member to help with this. The brain would be looked at like the prize of the corpse, and players would need to fight for it. This is just a thought, I think it would be pretty cool.

[buoyant dove]

yes and give alot of food for smaller critters the brain is extremely good for nutrient rich

[lusty arrow]

I dont get it, everyone knows Carno is pratically dead right now and yet they keep downvoting for balancing changes

Am I missing something?

[lucid mauve]

No you dont : P Devs listen to those who scream the most, and omni mains did

But now its fun to play omni, and see how long a carno is gonna chase you

[limber hull]

I mean, I disagree with the balance changes you made because they don't actually address any of carno's real problems

[lucid mauve]

I still hate the ambush carno, offf

[limber hull]

Like, diets don't change the fact it's bad

[austere axle]

@mint sonnet Man, this is happening to me too. CPU on 100%, GPU 40%. But I feel it was not like that at 6.5 release. Something weirdly changed wtf

[limber hull]

@austere axle hypsi is planned to be able to climb and have an arboreal lifestyle, dryo is planned to be a burrower

[eager parrot]

Yeah, its using 100% of my cpu aswell, literally ahve an I711700

Sometimes it goes to around 60-80% but its super CPU heavy now

[austere axle]

Ooh so they don't feel incomplete, they are incomplete hehe. Didn't know. Ty

[austere axle]

Anything we can do to fix it?

[eager parrot]

Nothing that I know of, my computer is perfectly healthy and up to date, its all the games fault I imagine the amount of bodys and living dinosaurs will be the main strain onthe cpu

[austere axle]

But still, support functions for weaker dinos would be cool

[austere axle]

I believe carcasses and skells are the main reason

[limber hull]

@crisp widget you can alt-bite to get people to stop assriding you

[crisp widget]

but i mean like a built in

[limber hull]

that's literally built in

[crisp widget]

what about shants. they should kick tho

the large hitbox looks weird

[limber hull]

oh. you're talking about legacy

[crisp widget]

yes. sorry for not clarifying

[limber hull]

lol, yea, can't help you, that's not getting updates

ever

[crisp widget]

ik but still feels better

it is playable for more ppl cuz graphics..

[limber hull]

yea but its not getting updates ever again lol

[carmine quail]

Has anyone else have a bug where if they pick something up as anything and eat it the prompt to eat or pick up is always there and you always detect food in your mouth?

It's annoying and sometimes glitches eating

[stone hatch]

Nah they all die because of bugs before the fight is done

[desert arch]

You dont balance around bugs tho

[stone hatch]

Yeah im not suggesting that im just saying we have had a bug that makes a dino borderline unplayable since the release of 6.5 which i find quite funny

[desert arch]

Which doesnt mean troodon needs a buff
Its a bug that has to be fixed
I dont see how this has anything to do with troodon balance?

[stone hatch]

My friends and i think troodon is really fun but we just straight up agree to not play it because you die because of the bug 100% of the time and we rage quit

[stone hatch]

It doesnt have anything to do with balance its just sad this bug has been in the game so long when it makes a dino unplayable

[desert arch]

Funnily enough I never had problems with the bug, maybe because I play extremely cautious

[stone hatch]

If u dont make any mistakes u still die

[desert arch]

The only times I did die because of the bug is when I got careless

[stone hatch]

Same thing with omni but thankfully omni can actually tank those hits

[small anchor]

@spark carbon
"So, removing Stegos 'cause they can go "ANYWHERE" but not Deinos 'cause they are "limited to water".
Thing is,** Stegos CAN go anywhere**,** just extremely slow, so they are NOT a threat to anyone with 15% stam available.**"

You are so wrong in this.
Stegos are a threat to everything.
Ill give you examples.
1 - Randomly body guarding. (Stego joins to body guard a corpse that does not involve him in it.)
2- Body guarding a pack mate. (Stego body guard a corpse that involved him, due to the corpse being of a dead pack mate.)
3- Body guarding a herd mate. (Stego body guard a corpse that involved him, due to the corpse being of a dead herd member.)
4- Stego mixpacking with carnivores, body guarding a corpse of "X" dino from "A random carnivore" just to let his "X" Carnivore mixpack-friend eat.
5- Stego joining random hunts to annoy and not let the hunt performance well. (This can be joining to protect an herbivore known as do a herd, or protect a carnivore known as mixpack. Or, simply do a trolling and annoy.)
(To defend these points mentioned, ill basically tell them here: Stego can and DO bodyguard most of corpses with annoying purposes and that distorts the gameplay, and for the other party that suffers from it, it doesn't make it fun.)

6- Stego guarding/camping the river/water to not let "X" dino drink.
7- Stego guarding/camping the river/water to not let deinos enter/exit.
(To defend my point 6 and 7, you would say that "No, you are wrong, those dinos can go to any other water zone." But lets suppose that the only water zone available, is the one that the stego is defending/guarding.)
8- Stego guarding/camping any mudpit that needs to be used by any dino. Hervibore/Carnivore. With annoying purposes.

I guess i don't need to keep going on with examples to tell you why stego is a threat to everyone, being or not being fast. Most of people use it with these purposes.
And main stegos can't deny it, it is a problem for this roster. And im good with it being deleted. *(Would like to deino be deleted too, but you can't complain a lot of deino, it just relys on water. Stego relys to annoy you in every scenario it can, as how i told in these points.) *

[small anchor]

Also, to defend this point.
Theres a video on YouTube that is showing how Stegos are nesting in "Deino island" (Mud "Island" located at the Center River,), being that something unusual.
They are distorting the gameplay there, nesting in a awkard place that they are not supposed to. So why giving this powerful creature to these type of player? To just abuse of it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnNv5CNGg1c

Its okay and you can say "Deinos can simply swim away" but what the heck are those stegos nesting in THAT place that is supposed for deinos (And now beipis) usage.?
You don't see tenos, pachys, (any other dino), nest there.
Just stegos, because they take over everything they can. And that is.

[barren zephyr]

Point 6 and 7 are kind of irrelevant bc all the water sources on the map are rivers. Just go down the river 💀

I've never had an issue with mudpits bc nobody cares about them

All of these things that stego can do, Deino can also do, except deino is harder to see bc it's flatter and darker colored

[jovial hazel]

Except stego can do it all over the map, not just within running distance of water. And that's because there's a chance a stego is around, if a deino tries it.

[barren zephyr]

Yes but stego can be seen a mile away and you can basically outwalk its run.

You can't remove one without the other, because then the other is left unchecked

Sure, deinos are less of a problem than stegos, but I come into contact with deinos a lot more often than stegos bc I need water

[barren zephyr]

deino can't pressure land creatures for more than 5 minutes due to thirst and they are slower that a slug even when sprinting (they have enough stam to sprint 20m as adult)

[small anchor]

Please id ask you to read the whole paragraph if you will comment on it, " 💀 "...
"(To defend my point 6 and 7, you would say that "No, you are wrong, those dinos can go to any other water zone." But lets suppose that the only water zone available, is the one that the stego is defending/guarding.)"

[desert arch]

Deino stealing corpses without any chance to fight it off wont be fun tho

[barren zephyr]

stego would be completely balanced if it's tail had a crowd control effect instead of nuclear damage like one could assume by looking at it

[limber hull]

1- Deino can do that too, except it can also devour/take the body meaning you can't even eat it
2- Deino can do this
3- Deino can do this
4 - Deino can do this
5- Deino can do this
6- Deino's entire gameplay loop is doing this
7 - Deino can easily avoid stego, and does this better
8- The one thing a deino can't do super well. Too bad it really doesn't matter

[barren zephyr]

ye, that would be annoying, can deino sprint with a corpse? maybe remove that feature (since they can't sprint with a live creature)

[urban flax]

So when you look at a tail covered with meter-long spikes you think "that looks like it could stun" instead of "that looks like it could impale other dinos and kill them" ?

[barren zephyr]

when I look at a stego tail I think, huh, there's now way it can swing fast enough to actually deal any significant damage, those spikes aren't super effective due to how long they are, not very stable for penetrating skin/scales

[urban flax]

Well then you're wrong

[barren zephyr]

no u

[urban flax]

If it wasn't useful as a weapon, it wouldn't have evolved that way

[limber hull]

Those spikes could arguably have killed a rex with a well-placed blow (if they co-existed, which they did not)

[urban flax]

Also we got fossils of dinos (at least one, maybe more) that got stabbed by a stego
Stabbed deep

[barren zephyr]

what are the odds of those spikes hitting perfectly in line with the tail swing

[urban flax]

If stego used them to swing instead of jabbing like it does in-game, about 95%

[barren zephyr]

just angle a bit and they will bounce off

and if it impales something it would lose the ability to swing again, 2 tons of weight on the tip of the tail would render it immobile

[urban flax]

That's why the tail can move both ways and the spikes aren't barbed
So it can get it out after striking

The "spikes or claws stuck in opponent or decor" trope is purely fictional
It can only happen with something exceptionnally thin and sharp like a man-made blade, or if said claw is extremely curved

[barren zephyr]

They are more of a decoration to look dangerous

[urban flax]

Or barbed, but then getting stuck in the target is the point

[urban flax]

You're denying facts
Also it doesn't really matter for in-game

[barren zephyr]

tail swin should be mostly blunt force damage