general-feedback-discussion

[limber hull]

Mega is smaller

[worn geode]

Like 50% deino

I’m not too familiar with the deinos size

[limber hull]

Yea, that's way bigger than a mega

Okay, imagine a carno vs a 1 ton deino in the middle of the arid biome

Carno 100% wins, no doubt

Which is why I don't think mega is suited for the arid

[worn geode]

Mega would also have a stunning tail whip attack

[limber hull]

that could stun an animal almost twice its size?

[worn geode]

We will see when it comes out, but the arid biome I am picturing is a lot different then the one you are

[limber hull]

There comes a point where you design mega to be so functionally ridiculous just to compensate for the carno matchup, where you could instead move mega to more aquatic/deeply forested areas

Carno is meant to be in arid

[worn geode]

The problem is so is mega

I think In a arid biome it would be very hard for a carno to fight a mega, let alone see it

[limber hull]

How?

[worn geode]

Most “arid” biomes I have seen in real life, eg: Spain, Africa, and western America

Are mostly dense rocky Shrub lands with tall grass

Like this

And it would not make much sense for a desert to be on the isles map

This is cactus scrub in Cuba, for example, which is what I think the isles arid environment should look like

It would definitely depend on the environment, and I do agree that if two equally skilled players fought with carno and mega, in the middle of an open area, the carno would probably win about 8 out of ten times

[worn geode]

Also this is wrong, carno lived on coastal plains that would seasonally dry up

[limber hull]

im not talking about reality

im talking about ingame

[worn geode]

Ingame I haven’t personally seen it directly stated that carnotaurus is meant to be in an arid environment

[limber hull]

press tab

[worn geode]

I believe it said arid/plains, which is true

Unless the arid biome is a dried up coastal plains than the carno won’t be some kind of apex in the environment

[worn geode]

The rocky coastal scrublands in Cuba would also be cool to see

[barren crater]

Simply avoid large, open areas as a megalania. Especially ones that fast, large mid tiers thrive in

[jagged jewel]

That is true, and I get that, but the reason i made it have “no weaknesses” (which it still does) is because if it didn’t, it would get bullied by anything that can do CC. Pachy, tenonto and carno would all just bully it if it wasn’t a big threat. “But it’s too strong” Not necessarily, it’s a jack of all trades, but a master of none. It’s vulnerable while climbing and while swimming to attacks. It’s slower than most things and has bad stamina on land. It CAN’T chase things down.

[jagged jewel]

Meg isn’t fit for open areas as a playable in game. It’s low to the ground, and generally very dark colors. It’s best fit for jungles, swamps and forests, where it can ambush animals.

[worn geode]

And arid environment should realistically not be open

Unless it is some sort of badland or desert

[jagged jewel]

An arid environment isn’t ALL like in the images you sent.

If we’re talking about an open environment, the meg will die.

[worn geode]

Yes, but I encourage you to find another arid environment on islands

[jagged jewel]

Why would meg be more efficient in your arid environment than a regular forest or jungle?

[worn geode]

That is where they are from

[jagged jewel]

Okay, but they did not live with carnotaurus

[worn geode]

They are specialized to hunting in shrublands

That is true

[jagged jewel]

Nor did they live with dinosaurs of any kind

[hearty sphinx]

How do I contact a developer please?

[jagged jewel]

You can DM punchpacket

[worn geode]

But the devs would have to stray pretty far from reality to make it viable for anything other than an arid environment

[hearty sphinx]

@jagged jewel how do I find him please?

[worn geode]

And making it bigger is not one of those ways

[jagged jewel]

@crystal trail

Click this @ and then just message

[hearty sphinx]

@jagged jewel thankyou

[jagged jewel]

Not really, just make it avoid open areas lol

Open areas are the only type of environment where a megalania will suffer

[worn geode]

Yes, but the arid environment should not be open

[jagged jewel]

Nowhere to flee to quickly

[worn geode]

Imo

[jagged jewel]

Are there trees and water for it to flee to?

[worn geode]

I seriously doubt a megalania would be a strong swimmer

Nor a strong climber seeing as it was 1k lbs

[jagged jewel]

Why is that? All monitor lizards are proficient swimmers

[jagged jewel]

I’m talking about juveniles

For the climbing part

[worn geode]

Well juveniles would flee to the scattered trees that are usually located in arid environments

[jagged jewel]

Are they out of reach for, say, a carno?

[worn geode]

Usually, yes

[worn geode]

Yeah, I was wrong on that

[limber hull]

i'd imagine megas would prefer jungles near rivers and the like

maybe swamps too

[jagged jewel]

I can see them being in swamps

Seeing as they have huge trees

Also any feedback on my stat list

[worn geode]

Swamps they would be hunted by deinos

[jagged jewel]

According to a few it is too strong, but i feel it still has appropriate weaknesses and vulnerabilities

[jagged jewel]

I mean yeah a megalania shouldn’t just swim around randomly

Mostly just to flee

Think of it Like a teno

[worn geode]

That could be the case but I do think they would be at risk from far more predators in jungles and swamps

[limber hull]

i would rather those predators than a carno

[jagged jewel]

Yea

A deino is mostly avoidable

[worn geode]

Baryonyx and spinosaurus?

Than a carno?

[jagged jewel]

A bary is small enough to be CC’d imo

Spino is just too slow anywhere

[worn geode]

And deino?

All in one place

That’s a death trap

[jagged jewel]

Deino is mostly avoidable, bary is small enough to get CC’d, and spino is too slow

[worn geode]

That’s like putting a Komodo dragon in the Amazon

[limber hull]

bary is smaller and has less of a powerful bite, spino ain't ever catching me, deino is not beating me on land

[jagged jewel]

Bary’s bite should only be barely higher than a utah’s

[worn geode]

You are forgetting that the mega would probably top out at around 10 mph

[jagged jewel]

Not on my stat list

[limber hull]

sir this is a videogame

[jagged jewel]

I thought we were talking about my suggestion wait what

[hearty sphinx]

Last night was well hidden in Bush and always check surroundings. After a couple of minutes a carno ran straight towards me and attacked. There is noway he would see me unless cheating?? I thought it was because he used lowest graphics settings but bushes still hide you!

[limber hull]

he brings realism into things a lot

[worn geode]

Why not?

It’s the only source we have

[jagged jewel]

Wait so we’re not talking about my suggestion ok

[jagged jewel]

Because a game needs balance

[worn geode]

That’s true

[jagged jewel]

Tbh make adult meg be 37 km/h and the juvies be 42

[worn geode]

But why not balance it towards its native habitat rather than an environment it would have never seen

[jagged jewel]

Because the game’s planned maps are not going to have that native habitat

[worn geode]

That’s intimidating

[jagged jewel]

Good

[worn geode]

I personally think that megalania would be the most important, as well as fill in a useful niche, in whatever arid biome the devs come up with

Unless it is an arid plains

In which case throwing it in the jungle is a good idea

[jagged jewel]

Yeah, from what we know there are no arid biomes like you showed

[worn geode]

Have we seen the arid biome yet?

[jagged jewel]

No, because there isn’t even a hint of it existing

[worn geode]

Exactly, so we have no clue yet

[jagged jewel]

Why would there be an arid biome in a map full of highlands and jungles and rivers?

[limber hull]

Isn't that one yellow grass biome an arid biome

[jagged jewel]

More like highlands

People just call it arid because idk

[worn geode]

Again, the Cuban arid cactus scrub and rocky coastal scrub in Cuba

[jagged jewel]

You’re speaking chinese to me

What is that?

[worn geode]

Shrubland in Cuba

[jagged jewel]

The closest thing we have to that is the cycad grove

[worn geode]

Which the environment bordering it is similar to the isles current environment

[jagged jewel]

Very low cycads, only juvies and megalania can fit there

[worn geode]

That’s true

And it’s pretty unrealistic to assume that will be the environment

[jagged jewel]

What does realism matter if it serves the same function?

[worn geode]

Only immersion in the environment you are on as well as seamless transitions between biomes

There are other possibilities

I am hoping the environment looks like this

[jagged jewel]

that looks cool

[limber hull]

@cursive sky you cannot, i'm afraid, but you will be able to when they release officially

[cursive sky]

ok

is QA available?

[urban flax]

QA application you mean ? You can dm Hypno but I'm not sure they're still recruiting

[cursive sky]

oh ok

[frosty rock]

Those who are hoping bright and "exciting" colors for the dinos... I hope devs never do that. If you want to play on rainbow characters, play those every other games there is available. I would like to keep even this one game without pink, purple or bright blue dinos. Thank you. ❤️

[harsh copper]

i do wish that male crest colors had something available other than white green or various shades of red. a subdued blue like the carno had in legacy for the male display color could be really nice for some variety

[dusk meteor]

I think the occasional very colourful dino is nice, like hypsi. Makes it stand out when most of the roster isn't at way.

But it would also be nice to see more variety Inn crest colours specifically for things like teno

But other than that, no I don't want everything to be super colourful.

[echo tiger]

https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[harsh copper]

I do agree with you on the teno. same with deino

[echo tiger]

If they are rainbow coloured you can kill them easier, who cares at that point its free food?

Silly colours are always fun

[dusk meteor]

Many colours isn't really a debate about killing things easier, but it impacts on the aesthetic and atmosphere of the game as a whole

[harsh copper]

i just want a little more variety than bright yellow, red, or green. if the bright yellow and a million shades of bright red are there why can’t there be like one or two blues

[echo tiger]

True, but i think subdued pinks, blues and purples should be allowed

[dusk meteor]

Those colours already exist, just on specific dinos.

[echo tiger]

particularly with colours for poisonous or venomous animals.

[dusk meteor]

Take utah for example. Utah can have pinks and purples, and it has a dull blue crest available.

However if you really want true blue style hypsi has that covered and likely troodon given its got like cyan on it in its promos

[limber hull]

id rather realistic colours. The nightmare that is BoB has just ruined any possible chance of such colours being at all nice.

If it's a small thing that thematically should be colourful (hypsi and troodon both work as a bird of paradise and a venomous animal with bright "warning" colours)

[dusk meteor]

This is perfectly reasonable to me that different animals have different selections and it gives them some expression of their own.

[limber hull]

The use of blue on Troodon is really cool imho

[dusk meteor]

(the yellow for the body on the utah is honestly way too bright imo it's like the blazing sun lmao. It looks nice on the crest tho)

[harsh copper]

i can agree with ya on that and yellow is my favorite color lol

i managed to make one black and yellow Utah that looks really neat, but the entire body isn’t yellow, it’s the crest and then a cream underbelly with yellow flank I think is the name? and then like a charcoal base

[harsh copper]

the flank is the yellow you were talking ab right? its like a dang cheetoh lol

[dusk meteor]

The. Neatest I think I've seen yellow is one that had a white body black back and bright yellow crest markings. It was very flamboyant and probably the most I'd tolerate bright yellow without it starting to look ugly to me - and that's only because it was a splash of the yellow.

Personally I tend to run around as a red and white male so I look two-toned rather than having gradient blending. I see that with black sometimes too more often than red

[harsh copper]

this is how i usually run with the yellow. the flank yellow is just too bright for me but i like to kinda mix it into the body a bit to tie in the male crest

[harsh copper]

that does sound interesting. i'd be interested in seeing that if oyu can recreate it tbh

[jagged jewel]

My only issue with this is the speed of the adult, as it could get ran down by stegos at that speed. I will tweak the stats very slightly and then post the improved version. I appreciate the help.

[dusk meteor]

I cant rn since I'm not on my pc hue

[faint folio]

I mean, it really heavily depends. Dinos that have a reason to be flamboyant should be-- birds of paradise (display), coral snakes (aposematism), and milk snakes (batesian mimicry).

Really, even so, certain colors like pink and purple are quite rare in wildlife. Blue is next uncommon, though not entirely unfound. I always thought it was weird how most of the dinos have a very limited green palette, despite being a fairly common color in nature (being well suited for camouflage, as is brown)

As an aside, Utah's probably have that orange/yellow color precisely because of big cat coloration-- for most mammals, with red/green color blindness, the tiger/lion's orange coat blends into the green foliage

Not sure that the analogy holds because I don't think reptiles are color blind, (and birds definitely aren't)

[jagged jewel]

honestly depends on the reptile

really derived reptiles typically aren't, like what you said, birds are a good example

crocodilians aren't color blind either iirc

[faint folio]

Oh cool, never thought about whether alligators can see in color before lol

[jagged jewel]

bruhh

why doesn't discord wanna show the text

[faint folio]

No idea. Could you copy/paste it?

[jagged jewel]

too big

i'll try to screenshot it

@barren zephyr velada has flowers

also all of those are edible

fair

i don't see the point in adding that to spiro while gateway is being worked on

[jagged jewel]

the only real MAJOR things i changed from your version are the speeds, for your speeds were low to the point where stegos could chase adults down

and i made juvie speed 42 so it doesnt get bullied by the more agile pachies

[faint folio]

I like this more, but I have a few more suggestions--

1. the venom bite shouldn't be a grab at all (deino is hated for a reason, y'all). Because of this you can't hold it until it drains your stamina bar. My original damage values and such reflected this. Additionally, as I'm building it to be a bleeder to maximize the utility of its venom, this attack should not do raw DPS at all. Additionally as it is a stalking predator, it needs stamina to follow prey long distances-- another reason why I don't want an attack that will completely drain stamina.

2. I think it's much too fast. Adult komodo dragons run about as fast as crocodiles, and my original lower speeds reflect that. It really shouldn't need to keep things in sight anyways with it's special tracking abilities and the heavy Stam penalty from venom

Sorry not DPS, I mean dot

Well I suppose it's a similar concept really. My point is it should drain your health pool over time if it's also doubling drain on your blood pool over time

[limber hull]

Yea, I also think the mega in taht concept is too fast

If it can burrow, that is

[jagged jewel]

1. It's not the same type of grab as deino's, it's more of a latching thing, kind of like the cerato prototype gif we've seen in the past. And there was a misunderstanding. I did not mean i wanted to make the latch do DoT, i meant that, for every second that the megalania latches on to its prey, it does 25-30 damage.

2. I only upped the speeds to make it not get bullied by pachy and stego, in juvie and adult stage respectively. Now that i think about it I may have gone a bit too extreme on the other side when it comes to speed.

The DoT thing was a misunderstanding on my part, and i apologize

i simply meant that for every 10% stam spent in the grab, there would be a damage tick, that did 25-30 damage each

[faint folio]

Also, about the interaction between bleed, venom, and mud. I had an idea-- when a creature affected by megalania venom wallows, the mud is less effective-- instead of halting bleed, it halves the speed of bleed drain and halves the duration until the bleed is healed.

[jagged jewel]

I suppose that would fill a similar purpose

[faint folio]

Hmm but I think a latch would be somewhat awkward to code? But I guess idk how they did the cerato's latch either.

I chose the megalania speeds such that it was similar to deino, but slightly faster. Still slower than stego, but not by much, and the reason I gave it such good stamina economy in the water is so that adults can use swimming to get away from large land dinosaurs, and running to get away from large aquatic dinosaurs

Burrowing could fulfill a similar purpose

To be entirely honest it would probably be okay to make megalania the same speed as stego, that thagomizer is scary business after all. But then with the Stam drain, if you could get venom on a stego it would very quickly be reduced to biting

[jagged jewel]

I mean, if they're coding cerato's planned latch, it wouldn't be a stretch to give megalania one.

Also, is it wrong to forget realism for speed and make the adult just be slightly faster than stego? Scratch the 35 km/h I said, 30 is enough. As long as it can't be ran down by stego. And I understand, and very much agree with your choice for stamina.
IMO, the most middle ground type of speed to give meg is 36 for juveniles and 30 for adults. Meg being slower than stego just rubs me the wrong way.

ATLEAST make meg be the same speed as stego, and the juvie be like 36 km/h

[faint folio]

Stego as adult is 26-27

[jagged jewel]

yes

make meg same speed or slightly higher than stego as adult

and then fresh spawns can be like 35-36

[faint folio]

No faster than stego as adult-- they really, really should not be trying to chase down the rest of the roster

[jagged jewel]

Being faster than stego doesn't mean it will chase it down. Stego can still 1 shot it

[faint folio]

And going up to stegos speed is already significantly faster than they probably would be if we're looking at realism

[jagged jewel]

Is it that wrong to forget realism to make something more balanced?

[faint folio]

Yes, but one venom bite and 10s later the stego isn't one shotting anything other than hypsis

[jagged jewel]

A stego won't let a megalania get that close to it, specially considering how mediocre it's turn is

[faint folio]

No it's not 🙂 but my point is im not sure it will serve balance either

[jagged jewel]

Again, any smart stego will 1. not let the megalania even get close enough to connect a latch
or 2. will swing at the megalania AFTER the latch.
Bleeding doesn't drain stamina directly, nor does meg's venom. The stego, upon being latched, still has 20 opportunities to hit the megalania.

[faint folio]

Oh, I see. I misinterpreted-- I thought you intended venom to also drain stamina but it's tied to the actual attack, like pounce is

[jagged jewel]

ah no, the animal can still struggle the megalania off tho

the stego can choose to tank the raw damage anyway, it isn't a lot

[faint folio]

Though again with megalania being an ambusher who needs to use thick foliage in forests to help secure a meal-- a smart mega will not let a meal know it's coming

[jagged jewel]

That is true

Same speed as adult stego then? Not faster, not slower

[faint folio]

Sure I'm ok with that

[jagged jewel]

how fast would a fresh spawn be?

i want the juvies to be pretty fast, but not OP levels of fast

[faint folio]

Maybe 2-3 faster than spawn deino? They need the speed. Their Stam drain should be the same or slightly higher than adults. The name of the game is diplomatic retreat to water, a burrow, or the trees to avoid being eaten

Spawn deino I'd need to look up the speed for, but it's low 30s or so

[jagged jewel]

So 36-54 km/h. Hm. I'll go slightly below the middle ground, and say 38-40 km/h is good.

[jagged jewel]

spawn deino is 18-19

the fastest deino stage is 50%, at which it moves at 29 km/h

[faint folio]

There's no way. Spawn deinos can easily outrun an adult on land

[jagged jewel]

fresh out of spawn screen? not really

[faint folio]

I'll have to try sometime then

[jagged jewel]

deinos get faster until 50%, and then get slower again

[faint folio]

Anyways.... Back to mega. I think 33-35 or so should be fine

[jagged jewel]

so fresh spawn is 35 and then descends to 26.8?

[faint folio]

Yeah

[jagged jewel]

alr, sounds good

[faint folio]

Baby mega won't be winning speed contests against utah and co, but it should have near instant acceleration because small lol, and if it again stays in forest/jungle, there should always be an escape via tree nearby

[jagged jewel]

yea

anything else?

[faint folio]

And normally I don't like balancing around running away, but basically as spawn anything that's what you have to do anyways

I think that's basically it, other than my previously suggested change about venom interaction with wallowing

[jagged jewel]

yea i changed it now

okay, i appreciate the help

[faint folio]

No problem 🙂 I like big lizard; I want him to be fun to play while still having other things able to compete

[jagged jewel]

fresh deino stats btw

[jagged jewel]

fair

[faint folio]

Cool! Thanks for sharing

Lol

So for burrowing 😄

[jagged jewel]

yeea the original base idea for megalania is for it to be the best burrow raider, as seen in proto's concept

so far it's the only burrow raider that can actually go INSIDE burrows

which means it'll probably burrow for itself too

[faint folio]

Yup

[candid nimbus]

Wait, in The Isle will be Megalania? O_O

Or this is fan mod?

[jagged jewel]

yes, it's confirmed

[candid nimbus]

O_O WOW

[jagged jewel]

lol

[faint folio]

Monitor lizard burrows are dug out of the ground. So, I suggest the following:

Burrowing works the same way nesting does. The mega has to repeatedly interact with the burrow sight to dig it out. Once dug, the monitor lizard can go inside to escape danger. Megalania burrows have one entrance.

Burrow raiding- megalania can both dig out other animals burrows and enter other animals burrows. To dig out a burrow, it uses it's burrowing mechanic-- repeated digging on top of an existing burrow will result in opening up the burrow.

For entering burrows: burrows should have a size radius of animals that can enter, proportional to the size of whatever animal created the burrow. Eg if a juvi megalania dug the burrow, an adult megalania cannot use the opening to enter the burrow. But for example if a dryo dug a burrow, a juvi megalania would enter with room to spare

[jagged jewel]

that sounds great, mind if i add it in

[faint folio]

Sure

Basically if the animal the mega is hunting is much smaller, then the mega has to resort to digging them out like other animals. Prevents megas from making the whole burrowing thing entirely pointless

[jagged jewel]

yea

[topaz pendant]

@jagged jewel u say about juvi megalainias burrows being to small for adults to enter but what happens if you are a juvi and grow inside ur burrow how would u leave ?

[faint folio]

Maybe as a safety feature to prevent glitching through burrow walls, the burrow automatically resizes as it's owner/digger grows. Eg if you dig a burrow as a juvi, and then grow to adult, that burrow should probably now be adult sized... Realism not withstanding

[jagged jewel]

Make it so big megalanias can't enter small burrows, but they can still leave them.

[candid nimbus]

Maybe player then should re-dig it's burrow if he is growing out of it?

[faint folio]

Either that or you could take the PoT route and inhibit growth if you're in a space too small to safely accommodate it

[topaz pendant]

k

[faint folio]

Or bouncing off this idea, being able to dig while inside a burrow to expand it and the entrance size... That may be complicated though

I mean realistically burrows are just holes in dirt. No reason an animal couldn't scrape away more dirt if they need room

[bleak birch]

I very much like the updated Megalania stats you posted. Still super tough(as it should be), but not as close to invincible so there can still be an anxious thrill around tougher dinos while also feeling like top of the mid tier predators when playing it. I’d be super interested in trying that out in game

[jagged jewel]

thank you, i appreciate it

[faint folio]

@sand lantern they do sometimes. The allo concept art (much as I hate to make things about allo) shows it digging out a burrow, implying a dig mechanic

Haven't followed the game for that long so that's just one more recent example im aware of

[gritty terrace]

@sand lantern they do, and I think albertos unique thing is something to do with them in groups because this is the first theropod concept where there are multiples of them in one place

[faint folio]

@mint sonnet I agree. you shouldn't have to rely on scavenging to grow a carnivore, and right now you do (at least for that critical first meal because you spawn in on fumes)

[mint sonnet]

yeaHH exactly. Sometimes scavenging can be fun, but not all the time and as the only option :[

its just so boring agysgef and often requires you to go to the most populated and dangerous areas

[faint folio]

There should ideally be a variety of Ai-- extremely rare large/dangerous AI to provide filling meals for apexes, rare medium ai to provide meals to mid tiers, and common tiny ai that provide 50% food or so for the smallest dinos, but less than 3% for anything bigger (so they're more hassle than they're worth for adults to bother with, like the compys)

[mint sonnet]

yEAH YEAH I agree

[worn geode]

iceandi based

[faint folio]

I freely admit I'm not one of the cool kids these days 😅 what does based mean?

[worn geode]

good ideas and opinions

[faint folio]

Ah, thanks 😁

[faint folio]

So I wrote up something as an example of AI overhaul that would be nice.

AI spawn frequency and food:

I’d like to suggest a rework of the AI spawning system and the food received from AI. There should be categories of AI, roughly matching the dino tier scale:

1. Common AI (hatchling tier/fresh spawn tier)
2. Uncommon AI (low tier)
3. Rare AI (mid tier)
4. Extremely Rare AI (apex tier)
5. Boss AI (strain tier)

Each tier comes with different food levels, difficulties to hunt, sizes, and spawn frequencies, and each tier can spawn in any AI spawn node throughout the map.

Food

The food provided from each AI for successfully killing it should be equal to roughly 50% of the hunger of the matching tier—in other words, a Rare AI should provide about 50% food to a carno, Uncommon should provide 50% to a Utah, etc etc. Each tier scales exponentially (10% of food for each lower tier, 400% for each higher tier)—so, a carno eating an Uncommon AI should be given (10%*50% = 5% hunger), while a Utah eating a Rare AI should be given 200% food. This will encourage larger predators to preferentially hunt large AI and ignore small AI, and reward a group of smaller predators for taking down the larger, more dangerous AI.

Difficulty

The difficulty of each AI should be roughly equivalent or slightly harder than the tier of the dinos they are meant for. Eg an Extremely Rare tier should be roughly as difficult for an apex player to kill as it would be to kill another apex player, or slightly harder. This also scales with tiers—the Common AI should be slightly easier for spawns to kill than other spawns, largely due to starting with an empty stomach when you spawn.

Size and Location

Weight of AI should roughly match the dinos that are meant to eat them, or lighter. Different kinds of AI can spawn in different biomes, but all biomes should have at least one AI of each type. Eg for grasslands the lineup might be: rat(1), hare(2), antelope(3), stego(4), hyper rex (5), and in the swamp it may be: frog(1), otter(2), teno(3), deino(4), hyper spino(5). Note: I don’t know a lot about strains and dinos that get strain variants; this is just an example of the concept

Spawn Frequency

The frequency of each class of AI should logically vary, ideally on an exponential scale of frequency. For every 50 common AI, there should be 5 uncommon AI, 0.5 rare AI, 0.05 extremely rare AI, and 0.005 boss AI, as an example. Higher tier dinosaurs should struggle to meet their needs through AI alone, and should be encouraged to break up into small groups or solo to have an easier time gathering enough food (really this should be the case for all food in the game, but I digress). Ideally, players should provide slightly more food than AI, as the point of the game is pvp with players

[limber hull]

@dreamy wharf Doesn't it seem a bit weird that the players who play well get an elder stage where they get weaker and die, but the players who play in a way that's unfavourable get rewarded with infinite adult state to continue their reign of terror?

[dreamy wharf]

Everything about that is wrong.

And seems intentionally phrased to show a disposition that refuses to be changed.

[limber hull]

what

You actively choose to opt into the system by playing your character correctly, which would include: keeping up with your diets, keeping up with nesting needs, not overpacking, cannibalizing, no mixpacking, or atleast visiting your preferred biome, etc.

[dreamy wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/dirty-docks-shawty-triflin-shawty-triflin-she-gif-22455514

[limber hull]

You can not be an elder by doing stuff you shouldn't be doing

[dreamy wharf]

But yeah no, it’s not a benefit to just stay as an adult.

It’s not a benefit to be barred from other systems or being literally stronger which seems to be omitted.

It’s not a benefit to be barred from strains

It’s not a benefit to be barred from elder perks.

You see why your message just seems… wrong?

If you think staying alive is a reward in of itself

You’re right but the vibe I’m getting is that you think it’s a reward that’s not conducive to the game’s design.

[limber hull]

If you don't care about those systems, it is. You seem to be under the assumption that lots of people would even care about that stuff, when all they want to do is have their fun little mixpack killsquad and die doing some dumb stuff

Like I get you, but you're failing to understand that the mindset of the people you're punishing by removing the elder stage are the kinds of people who wouldn't want it

These people aren't interested in growing old, surviving the odds or losing their hard work, these a PvP junkies who just want to stay adult as long as possible and kill anyone they can, however they can

[dreamy wharf]

If that’s what you think then it’s what you think.

I’m not too sure what your goal is, I get the opinion, I just don’t know what else you have in mind.

[limber hull]

I've seen it a lot in the current game, and though I do believe some people will change how they play with elders, I imagine others will fully play into the "toxic anti-elder" playstyle by mixpacking and whatnot, just so they can get their mass murder phase for longer

[dreamy wharf]

It’s a colossal assumption.

And if you’re worried about mixpacking, the system is there to reward players for playing the game as intended.

Meaning that players who typically don’t mixpack and the like, are much stronger than ones that do.

And even if they do mixpack once they get perks

There will be other systems in place to further deal with that problem.

Not only that but they will eventually consume those perks.

It’s not designed against mixpacking, nor does it help that issue more than any other system does in the isle.

[dire ridge]

wait and see

but i agree with Alberto based on the current stat of the game and the playerbase behavior

[dusk meteor]

Old age death is more or less the success ending of your playthrough which makes it a necessary element to be obtainable for everyone no matter what. Essentially our survival objective is survive [x-y] amount of time and you win.

The game doesn't exactly benefit from removing the objective only individual players do which is not in the games best interest.

There maybe should be other ways to interact with the perk system and have successes, like through Nesting.

but yeah no stalling old age death because death is unfavourable for you is not exactly ideal

[barren zephyr]

the isle = doodoo solution: code + better + brain + effort + better game

how to make game better = remove stego for now

[urban flax]

clearly a very well-thought and constructive feedback

[dreamy wharf]

This would be entirely fair if you're making the elder system inaccessible to pretty much everyone. I hope I can convey that I'm not.

The idea is that, since the elder system is coming for sure, I'm trying to propose a baseline for the system with the idea of "survive as intended, then just survive". Your average people who play the game how it's meant to be played will be fine, the minority who mixpack and go against the grain of what you're supposed to be playing as, will find a much harder time to get into the system.

The survival objective is still there, it's just much healthier for the game's environment without introducing something lackluster and draconian. The elder system is more of a reward rather than a penalty, you surviving as your base counterpart shouldn't have a timer slapped onto it when you can use the elder system in a much more intuitive way. To discourage certain player behaviors while simultaneously rewarding those who play the game "properly".

Again, a wider majority of people would have access to this. It reinforces healthier gameplay while discouraging gameplay that you shouldn't be participating in. It's a checklist, if the comparison helps, it'd work more like a whitelist where only afew bad actors wouldn't be able to interact with the system as easily whereas the wider majority of people can interact with it by just playing the game as intended. The only people who would worry about this are those who intentionally go against what the game is about.

[dusk meteor]

@barren zephyr of course it should have a timer. I don't know if you've noticed but the core gameplay loop is literally growth, and every stage has a timer

When people reach adult it is not 'the end'. It is an unfinished stage which really has very little to do, so people end up just fighting.

Not many are disputing thst something should be in the game to promote more realistic behaviour or to dissuade people from engaging in behaviour that is damaging to the way officials work, but tying it all inherently to growth doesn't work. Only bits and pieces relevant for growth should be tied to it.

[barren zephyr]

I think you tagged the wrong guy homie

[dusk meteor]

Ah. Sorry, its kinda hard for me on my phone, it's kind of on its last legs lmao @dreamy wharf see above

[barren zephyr]

It’s g I did it to a dev once and got muted

[dreamy wharf]

In the first two sentences you tie it into growth, then in the last you say you don't want to tie it into growth.

It's not tied to growth either way, it's just how well you live your life as a dinosaur as an adult. Growth is a stopgap to provide a timesink so that players see more value for individual playables. That's always been the case and it will probably never change.

Survival shouldn't be dictated by timers alone. This system helps with providing a gameplay loop beyond just growing, it gives you a reason to survive as an adult.

[desert hornet]

I think your idea is fantastic and not only well thought through but it would also be hugely beneficial to the game environment. People that play adults just to go on a killing rampage suck. They make the game lose the fun and make it hard for those of us playing correctly to well, play correctly. The system you suggested not only makes it harder for certain players to grief, it makes the whole experience much more rewarding and satisfying. I always thought it was odd that a natural growth system without a natural end was being used, but an elder system would bring the entire game full circle and make it a more fulfilling experience to grow a Dino. Once again I think this idea is excellent and those that are having issues seem to in fact be the griefers that make the game not fun, with half-pieced together reasonings🙄

[dreamy wharf]

I’m glad you like the suggestion but opinions differ for person to person and I encourage you to respect that man.

All it is, is just a feedback post on potential elder system changes.

[desert hornet]

Oh dw Ik. I just have zero patience for griefers. They should really stick to the intended death match servers but they choose to screw with people in normal servers and it’s just irritating. Plus I wanted to give your idea some support since most things being said were arguments, and I won’t stand for such a good idea to be ganged up on. I read it aloud to my vc yesterday cause I thought it was brilliant, so it was sad to see people getting upset about it

[urban flax]

I prefer forced elders

Wavepoole convinced me on that

[dusk meteor]

You didn't understand what I wrote at all. I am not tying whatever 'it' is to growth in its wholeness. The firs point I made was just a general statement about the game, not necessarily tied to anything in a practical way but more as context, while the last point tied to your idea in a practical way.
I talk about a few different things - you'd have to clarify what it is, although I have to assume you probably mean your suggestion.

And no, growth isn't just a stop gap. It is the basis of the main gameplay loop for the dinosaur survival aspect of the game. You have a bar that fills over time and you need to get it complete. Some things may help your growth, some things may hinder it. It is a part of survival. It is not all of it but it is, essentially, your objective to protect and aid.

The adults stage is only an end point now because of the unfinished state of the game. There should never be a feature which can stall your growth at adult given that it is also just a stage like any other. You just happen to be super useful at that stage. No one would like it if you were stuck at juvie or sub, but because it's adult and I can fight properly now it should be exempt? No.

[desert hornet]

@hearty sphinx carnivores generally stick to central because of the way the AI spawn is setup right now. It’s not really players fault because they would starve to death if they hunted elsewhere. It’s more due to the imbalance of AI spawn areas and amounts.

[dreamy wharf]

You’re abit hard to understand but I think I get you, sorry.

The context is the elder system as a whole, regardless of the feedback post or not. So when I say “it” I generally mean the system as a whole. You say it should have a timer, it being the adult stage, where you eventually become an elder and die automatically. Which you reinforce by saying that because there’s typically nothing to do as a adult, people end up just fighting, you then proceed to say “… tying it all inherently to growth doesn’t work”, which I agree with, which the feedback post has it barred behind a checklist rather than what you were saying where it should simply have a timer where you become an elder. I don’t really think I misunderstood.

Regardless of what you think, growth is a timesink cost. You can add whatever you want to it, but in the end, it’s only there so that you have a time associated value with that playable. In progression you had to earn points to become bigger and better, in survival, it’s a sheer timer.

The intended changes aren’t necessarily there to make adults become the final stage, elders will be regardless of what you and me both think. Rationalizing that because you grow past your typical smaller phases doesn’t mean you should stop at your adult phase is fine, until you realize there’s more you can do with that. Giving players a reason to properly survive as an adult to then be able to become an elder provides that gameplay loop adults desperately need. You shouldn’t be able to just put minimal effort into “surviving”, hiding in a bush, eating the wrong things, mixpacking, overpacking, etc. and still be allowed to get an award like a strain.

Seamless elder growth is fine but pretty much does nothing except add an extra timer that doesn’t really change the way people play, just furthers encourages AFK growth, etc. please look at other games for this issue, BoB suffers from it quite abit.

[dusk meteor]

The "it shouldn't all be tied to growth" has more to the sentence. I said this in the context of encouraging or discouraging certain behaviours in players, e.g. The use of buffs and debuffs.

To clarify the point: if all survival aspects affect whether you progress to elder, they are affecting your growth. This doesn't work for a variety of reasons
E. G. Nutrition is not going to be inherently tied to growth, bit rather growth may become an optional benefit therefore how is maintaining a. Good diet supposed to contribute?

2 buffs and debuffs and why you have them should be relayed to players clearly. The Isle already struggles with this. If more debuffs are stacked, the solution becomes mudguard.
Futhermore: imo to address this the buffs and debuffs you get should be relatively intuitive. It's not intuitive for everything you want to dissuade to affect growth (e. G. Mixpacking)

3 having a profile your dinosaur needs to achieve means some way of being able to access this information. This doesn't exist and isn't exactly planned for.

4 it's damaging towards certain gameplay styles which should be valid. For example, the utah is. Intended as a social creature so rhetorically it would want to be in a pack to fulfil social needs. This isn't always achievable, and if it is a requirement it makes solo gameplay in itself potentially debuff you.

All of these problems can be addressed separately, but I don't see that as a worthwhile workload when it's to prop up something which is undermining the concept of the game anyway

Moreover, forcing a specific sort of gameplay for the basic loop is frustrating and dumb. People will want to achieve perks no matter their playstyle and to me its considerably more draconian I bar everyone who doesn't play the ideal route from just a basic part of the game

Also... you won't be able to get a strain by just going through elder. Rather than elder being a set of quests, strains are more planned to be like that a a secret unlock.

So... No, you can get a train by afk growing and you will be required to be more active. I think it works better for the strain because they're an extra addition to the loop as a reward, not a core part of i

[hearty sphinx]

Thankyou for your response. Yeah when I first started playing and spawned in those areas I would starve and see no one and wondered where everyone was! So it's all down to a.i? It's ridiculous and really needs sorting out as the map is beautiful and such a waste not to be using it all. Getting bored of same 2 areas all the time. When are the devs gonna do something about it?

[urban flax]

Probably next update since they're releasing a new map

Well hopefully

[hearty sphinx]

@urban flax were getting a new map?? Wow did not know that! What's it gonna be like???

[urban flax]

Kinda hard to say, we haven't seen all of it yet
But it looks much better than the current one

[dreamy wharf]

I’ve never mentioned any debuffs, I mentioned in an example that there could be nesting benefits if you listen to your comfort goal as a Quetz. I’m not making a system of buffs and debuffs, those already inherently exist with other systems like diets. I don’t think I even mentioned that at all.

Two, again, your growth isn’t affected through sheer buffs and debuffs. It’s just at a certain point the game will go “okay, you’ve lived a good dinosaur life according to this checklist here, you’ll become an elder”.

Three, I don’t really know how to address this in a really easy to understand way other than “we literally just make a profiling system”. You can just bring up your dossier in your insert screen similar to how diets are shown there as well.

Four, the idea isn’t to force social behaviors in god awful ways. I agree, nothing like forcing you into a certain group size should be a thing, but, as an example, if you nest, you’d want to nest in particular biomes rather than others.

Forcing a gameplay loop of “playing your dinosaur the way it was intended” is only dumb for people who actively want to skirt around what the game is supposed to be, a survival horror game with dinosaurs in it. Strains have been confirmed to be tied to elders.

[hearty sphinx]

@urban flax is there a link to it anywhere?

[urban flax]

Sadly not
You can ak in isle-discussion if some people have screenshots of it, but so far we've only seen it during Dondi's last streams

[hearty sphinx]

@urban flax so does this mean we have to wait possibly a long time and keep spawning in just 2 places in the same old area? That's terrible

[urban flax]

Early access moment
Dondit did the map himself before they hired Jace, Jace did a few things trying to fix it, and at one point they decided
"OK let's just restart from the ground up"

And let Jace do his job

[dusk meteor]

Being barred from elder is inherently a debuff since it is essentially barring progression - its just not a raw start one. This is why I'm talking about debuff and buffs.

[dreamy wharf]

A debuff only for those who, honestly, just try exploiting the game.

Look, it’s been incredibly interesting having this talk.

I agree certain things and disagree with others.

I don’t think we’re gonna end up on some common ground though.

So agree to disagree?

[dusk meteor]

Pretty much Yeah. Agree to disagree :>

[faint folio]

Well, AI and the fact that NW and Center converge a bunch of different dinos together, even herbis because of the diet system. And probably a bit of SW making water a bit less accessable, and SE and NE having too much foliage for players to see.

So... carnis hang at center and NW because that's where they can reliably find food.

@pure quiver I'm really strongly against lightning that can damage players. Really any random event that players have no control over which can literally kill hours of growth needs to be violently opposed. (Also, standing under a tree is actually worse to avoid lightning strikes. Whole herds of cattle and horses have been documented as killed by a single lightning strike when the bolt jumped from a nearby tree or fence, or from one animal to the other)

Really good PvE survival gameplay is all about providing consequences to player actions, whether good or bad-- you tell your character to run off a cliff? You fall and die. You collect the right variety of food? Congratulations, you get to heal faster

Lightning strikes doesn't fulfill this. You need to go eat or drink in a storm? Good luck, you may die randomly. This doesn't punish player actions, it punishes the player for trying to follow systems the game puts in place anyways (food/water drain) with their own consequences anyways

[hearty sphinx]

Well yeah this being my point in that the map was poorly planned. I know they got rid of a lot of forest on the evrima map but why not make those other parts carnivore friendly???

[pure quiver]

There CAN be sources under cover, like potatoes growin by the river under the cover of trees.

puddles inside a building

[faint folio]

Okay, but most foods aren't. And honestly, what will likely end up happening is people will just log off when a thunderstorm hits, because you basically make the game afk simulator until it's safe to travel again. Much the same problem that night had before the recent night vision patch

[pure quiver]

1 in 10M are exremely rare odds. And I detailed effects

Under a Utah is death, above not

[faint folio]

Even so... Who would want to risk it? Even if you survive the lightning itself, now you're low health, and everything wants to kill you. It's very nearly the same thing

And what about slow dinos like stego or deino? They may not be able to get to cover in time

[pure quiver]

It's bad weather, it's an equal risk to everyone

imo it's fair

[faint folio]

BoB already has this, and most people don't like it and log out. Fair or not, it's still a bad mechanic

[pure quiver]

Perosnally I havent experienced it in any other game, and I have not played BoB. Does anyone else feel the same as Iceandi?

Besides, I think travelling through the jungles is not as debilitating as you make it sound. And the free-standing trees would be more likely to get hit if you WERE out in the open

Maybe a fairer alternative would be to have lightning strike NEXT to you causing some minor damage? And make THAT experience extremely rare?

Plus it sounds realistic to me that if a flying player got too close to the clouds they'd be fried mid-air as punishment for being in a storm

@faint folio imagine eating some desperately needed Sunchoke flower as a Stego in a storm, you see a flash and in that instant "CRA-KAK!!" you hear the terrifying lightning!... but you're okay? and then "FLUMP!" you see a dead Quetz that was flying too high slap against the grass a few feet away from you.

[faint folio]

Lol. It's raining quetz!

[faint folio]

But yeah that would be better. Not ideal, but better. Random death bolts are bad, but I don't oppose it nearly so bad if it universally shaves a bit off the top of your health pool, rather than killing you or doing extremely heavy damage outright

[zealous stone]

If lightning was added, I think it would be better if it didn't damage you, but could maybe start wildfires. With a little start up time on the fire to give anyone who happens to get hit directly time to move before it can light them on fire.

Wildfires wouldn't encourage afk camping, quite the opposite if its heading your way.

Of course slower dinos like Stegos might still run into issues escaping the fire.

[faint folio]

Honestly again, not a huge fan of outright death, especially for apexes like quetz, but maybe like a stun effect with the damage? Assuming that players have enough warning time of an incoming storm to descend as a flier

[pure quiver]

Living in Australia I've noticed a few types of lighting: Blanket lightning, and Fork Lightning. Blanket means it's just in the sky and you see flashing from behind the clouds. No danger. Fork lightning means DANGER!!!

[pure quiver]

Fair enough. Although I could see the storm play a part in punishing stupid behaviour

[faint folio]

Yeah that would work better. Gives more agency to the player and doesn't directly cause player death due to random event

[pure quiver]

I'd like to think that extremely rare events are novel, and makes it fun and interesting.

For instance, in Animal Crossing, you have a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of tripping when running. It happens, you lose items you were holding forever, but it's SO rare it's fun in its own way. I feel like getting buzzed or hit by lightning and NOT dying seems like it's so rare that you're "Lucky" when it happens!

[zealous stone]

The Isle could benefit from more environmental hazards, just rather not have random health lose risk forcing players to afk camp.

But adding extreme weather events or natural disasters could give players something to worry about when player counts on a server are low, and still change up the game on higher player count servers.

[pure quiver]

Storm rolls in:
Heavy rain and high winds all throughout (20 minute event), but blanket lighting for 5 minutes. only ever 3 forks within 2 minutes. and OF those 3, they only have a 1 in 10M chance of striking near anyone. And a storm appears every 5 day cycles or so. So "Storms are rare" and getting stuck by lightning is EXTREMELY rare. so rare people thinks it's a MYTH

[faint folio]

^ random events could be fun if they're rare, but the impact shouldn't be so severe. In your example-- animal crossing, you may lose items you were carrying but you probably don't lose any of your crops, furniture, stored items or money (if it has that-- haven't actually played AC lol). It's probably usually more of a random, rare inconvenience than a true progress reset like dying is in the isle. Plus they can use the animation of the trip to make it kind of silly/amusing, partially compensating for the loss.

If the isle were to do something similar, it would need to be lower stakes

[pure quiver]

Exactly

But IF you wanted to add realism maybe have it so it only has to strike Apexes and does 15% damage, then it COULD strike mid-tiers at half the chance (1 in 20,000,000) and that does 25% damage, and it only strikes near smaller players (1 in 45,000,000) and does 30% Damage?

And the stunning effect can take place where they hop on the spot and topple over for a second, getting back up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI2--sk-Jp4

[faint folio]

A good example of a rare random event would maybe be an achievement called "I see fire". How to get it? Rarely at night, meteor showers happen. Extremely rarely, one actually lands somewhere on the map. If it lands within 20 feet of you-- achievement earned. Doesn't do any damage, though if you make it so that if a meteor strike event is triggered, it will always land near a player (eg, everyone who saw it fall now knows where the player is)

[pure quiver]

😮

[faint folio]

Kinda an ironic coincidence with the whole meteor strike causing extinction. Lol But again, it happens at night, which means visibility is reduced and players aren't immediately sentenced to death or dismemberment

[pure quiver]

Meteor shower that causes a wild fire AND a tsunami, lol

[faint folio]

Then you could have another achievement called "Storm chaser". Same principle as the meteor thing, but instead of being detrimental it's beneficial: rarely during thunderstorms, a lightning bolt will strike an AI. If you go over and eat from the dead AI, you unlock the achievement

Nah lol. A small meteor

Not extinction level

[pure quiver]

Achievement: Survive the Multi-Impact

[faint folio]

Lmao

Anyways, the random events should always have minor impacts, ideally some with minor inconveniences, and some with minor boons

[pure quiver]

YO

[faint folio]

Then you can also have events like eg wildfires and floods that actually impact gameplay as part of normal PvE

[pure quiver]

Touch the meteor and Earn a mutatgen to use in the Perk System

[faint folio]

Hmm... Idk about that as a tack on to the original meteorite random event idea but... I could see something similar working with a slightly modified system

[jagged jewel]

no

i don't see how touching a meteor allows for a new playstyle

[pure quiver]

Just a fun idea

[urban flax]

You know what's better than something fun ? Something fun and which makes sense

[jagged jewel]

^

eat grass and die perk when?

[pure quiver]

Just read the above, Ice and I talked about the weather events

[jagged jewel]

every time you graze as herbivore your attack goes down

[jagged jewel]

yes, we're just commenting on your last statement

[urban flax]

I read the whole conversation
And I don't like the idea of lighting randomly striking AI either

[jagged jewel]

the weather thing is all fine and dandy, it's just...why would touching a meteor give you a perk???

[pure quiver]

AI? since whren did I ever mention AI?

[jagged jewel]

i personally dislike lightning strikes killing stuff in games, considering as people can survive lightning strikes, and yet for some reason you want stuff like minmi to die to it??

[urban flax]

Iceandi did
And since they were conversing with you I assume it's a part of the conversation

[pure quiver]

Well if you actually read the whole convo you'd see we talked about some solutions

[jagged jewel]

^

i don't get why you want stuff under the size of utah to die

make it stuff under HUMAN sized

atleast those can take cover way easier

[faint folio]

Well, let's not entirely roast them. We can make this work.

So meteorite strikes being a rare random encounter means that players can't really influence what perk tree they follow if they want the tree unlocked by the meteor event.

If we want to do a "touch an object and earn a mutagen" kinda deal, the players need to work for it and have it in their control. What with strains themselves being mutated dinosaurs... Why not make it so that doing a certain amount of damage to a strain animal unlocks a mutagen for the strain perk tree?

[urban flax]

Not solutions
Idea to implement harmful lightning strikes, which wouldn't need a solution if it wasn't implemented in the first place

[pure quiver]

That's why we talked about it

[pure quiver]

Here

[jagged jewel]

at that point just make lightning be a visual thing lmao

OR, make it affect the environment. Make so it can start potential fires, or remove parts of a jungle entirely.

[urban flax]

There are strain creatures planned
I imagine killing and eating one could earn you some progress to become a strain

[jagged jewel]

^

[urban flax]

Or waiting for something stronger than you to kill one and stealing the body

[pure quiver]

But it's fun to have something SEEMINGLY non-interactive spook you by being interactive

[faint folio]

That's what I'm saying. It will also keep strains rare, which they should be

[faint folio]

We talked about this too

[jagged jewel]

Yes, that's why it should affect the environment, and just not target players. Imagine taking a stroll through the swamp, and out of nowhere one of the trees catch up on fire and basically blow up.

It doesn't need to interact directly with players for it to be fun.

[pure quiver]

Okay, I see your point

[jagged jewel]

If anything, your idea of just stunning will make it a mild inconvinience

idk how you spell it

[pure quiver]

But ultimately a punishment for standing out in a storm for too long on the rare occasion

PvE means the E wants to kill you

[jagged jewel]

That punishment can be removing your cover, or just outright creating a fire.

[pure quiver]

Lightning included

[urban flax]

Something chance-based is inherently bad
If it's very good and justified, it can be tolerable, but it's better to just avoid thsi kind of mechanic

[faint folio]

That's why I thought the meteor idea may be a fun random event. Doesn't directly impact players at all, and it may be kind of a fun tongue in cheat poke at dinosaur extinction

[pure quiver]

That could work!

[jagged jewel]

Idk about a whole entire meteor, unless you mean one of the tiny ones?

[faint folio]

Yeah a tiny one. I detailed it earlier

[faint folio]

@jagged jewel this one

Really just a visual event

[pure quiver]

big firey basket ball that lands and makes a boom, you grab it and carry it for a time and it gives you all kinds of weird effects. Like faster speed at the cost of hunger, or higher jump with reduced fall damage! then it's a fight over the glowing space rock to get cool abilities for a short time. Like cosmic hot potato

[urban flax]

Oh please no

[pure quiver]

lol

[urban flax]

We're talking about The Isle, this sounds like something from Fortnite

[pure quiver]

Sounds like a cool modded server event tho

[urban flax]

Yeah keep it to modded servers

[jagged jewel]

alright

[pure quiver]

That one did sound a bit too zany for The Isle

[jagged jewel]

I still don't really agree with it giving you a whole perk. Maybe just a really rare achievement, considering how rare it will be to find one. No actual gameplay advantages imo

[faint folio]

That's all I want. Just a steam achievement for getting a random event

Once the meteorite lands, it's just another small rock model with a modified skin, and it despawns after a bit. Purely visual/achievement based

You could call it "I see fire", or "the end of the world... Oh, wait"

[pure quiver]

I guess we could do that for all of them!
Steam Achievements for: Seeing the meteor shower and finding a meteor crash site, surviving a wild fire, surviving a flood, and "surviving" a lightning storm!

[faint folio]

Small meteorite impacts are actually pretty common, at least compared to the sizes that actually cause severe damage/extinction events (still quite rare though)

Eh I want the achievements to be for rare things, and outside the normal scope of survival

[jagged jewel]

idk about you but finding a meteorite slightly bigger than a human hand on the ground randomly isn't gonna be common in a game where you can be hunted at any given time

[faint folio]

Presumably if they add wildfires/floods, they are something you will HAVE to survive at some point. Seeing a meteor land isn't something required for survival

[jagged jewel]

it's common to us, because we can track them

[pure quiver]

You just need to touch your foot on the crater, and you get it

[jagged jewel]

dinosaurs cannot

[jagged jewel]

a small meteor will not make a very visible crater

[pure quiver]

Dang

[jagged jewel]

which is good, because it's rarer

[pure quiver]

Another rare event! The dam cracks and floods the south!

[faint folio]

Which is why it's a rare event... I was simply pointing out that asteroid impacts on the scale of causing extinctions or even severe local damage only occur once in 10000 years or 1 million years. Whereas smaller meteorites land a lot more "frequently"-- you hear about one every couple decades or so. Still freak events but

[urban flax]

And what happens to everyone who happens to be in the southern part of the map when that happens ?

[jagged jewel]

Yes, so it's good enough for the game lol

[jagged jewel]

i mean not really anything too bad, at most their food gets flooded ig

[faint folio]

Yeah if you wanted the achievement you would need to follow the streak of light as it fell probably

[jagged jewel]

you'd have to be pretty close to know exactly the location

[faint folio]

Which is the point of it being a rare achievement

[pure quiver]

Storms occurring maybe once every 5 day cycles, meteors occurring MAYBE once every 20-30 day cycles???

[urban flax]

So that's just an annoying event that provides nothing ?
I'm not against the idea of random weather or map events, but they have to provide something in terms of user experience, if it's just "screw you but at least it looks cool" that's not good in my opinion

[pure quiver]

Giving me some Breath of the Wild vibes

[faint folio]

Let's stay away from drastic map changes like destroying the dam and flooding a quarter of the map... Remember, minor impacts for rare events

[jagged jewel]

yes im agreeing with you

[pure quiver]

It'll just refill the carved out empty river there

and drain the swamps slightly

[jagged jewel]

it provides options for semiaquatic carnivores, and allows them to thrive more, and it also allows players that may be thirsty to get water easier

that's the most i can think of. floods will likely be a thing anyway lol, this isn't just speculation

[faint folio]

Think we're saying that rare random events shouldn't be screwing players over just because it looks cool tbh

[urban flax]

And non-semiaquatics get screwed

[urban flax]

Rivers gaining more water until they get out of their bed is a different thing than a dam randomly breaking and flooding a quarter of the map

[jagged jewel]

valid

[faint folio]

Have you seen video of what happens when a dam fails? It's extremely violent and powerful. Not to mention they'd need to make a broken dam model and figure out how to repair the dam

[jagged jewel]

i mean, yes, that's included in the first point i made. semiaquatics can still swim away, or run away if tall enough, assuming that the flood doesn't happen instantly

[faint folio]

Normal floods would be fine, the dam bursting would not

[jagged jewel]

yes

[pure quiver]

Just discussing a suggestion

[jagged jewel]

ex: the flood gets 1 meter every say, 4-6 seconds. A carno, which can wade in the water for way higher depths, can run away on time, or run away for most of the length needed. a teno, can literally swim around the docks without losing stamina, so it's gonna be fine.

(i still heavily disagree with the dam thing, because it'd be super quick and violent)

[pure quiver]

Well in my head the dam was cracking and leaking until it just crumbled away and the river and lands below slowly filled up

[faint folio]

That's not how dams rupturing work

As the structure cracks and crumbles it gets easier for the water to move it, and usually what ends up happening is the water roundhouse kicks the barrier out of the way, followed by thousands of tons of water suddenly rushing the path of least resistance. A dam failure is a very quick flood with a lot of power behind it. Extremely dangerous

[pure quiver]

Hmm

Well.... it was just an idea

But personally I'd LOVE to see the meteor showers

[fickle oar]

So I know we are getting the ability to color our eye irises in the future, any possibility of being able to color our claws/nails? Nothing drastic just maybe choosing between browns, greys, and whites. Some skins just look out of place with the current default claws. Would be nice to change the contrast of the nails a bit.

[faint folio]

Hi Ellan! Lol

Is this meant more for discord discussion or an actual suggestion/feedback? Want to make sure its in the right channel (would be a shame if it got buried in this discussion channel)

Anyways, idk about making nails a whole separate color region, but maybe blending it with the color regions covering the toes?

Eg teno has socks in it's feet- if you pick a dark sock color, then the nails are black, whereas brown socks are paired with a tan/keratin color by default? Could be paired also with saturation making the nails pinker/whiter as the skin gets paler as well

[topaz ermine]

imagine fixing the fatal error constantly losing dinos for days now.

[faint folio]

Imagine trying to find one line of code wrong in thousands and thousands of total line, and all you have to go off of is it's something that seemingly randomly causes a client crash.

It takes time to find this stuff, especially if you don't have a way to reproduce the bug reliably.

[topaz ermine]

i will find the code for them

[faint folio]

If you want to, start trying to figure out how to reproduce the crash and then submit a bug report

[topaz ermine]

they can check a conflict between nv and anti cheat

[faint folio]

That will help them the most as being able to consistently trigger the bug gives them an idea of where to look

[faint folio]

How do we know it's a NV conflict?

[topaz ermine]

combat and things dying produces the bug

tenos seem to increase the chances of it

[faint folio]

Thing is it has to be consistent. X + y + z = crash. Right now, we know combat is X, but we're missing y and z

Because combat doesn't ALWAYS trigger a crash

[topaz ermine]

they did something to enhance the anti cheat and it throws a bug too so i would start there

[faint folio]

I've crashed 2x, and neither involved teno. First time, a nearby deino lunged at a raptor crossing the river near deino rock. But lunging doesn't always crash.

Second time I was a carno in a carno pack that was hunting another carno. Combat again, but carnos hunting carnos doesn't reliably crash

[topaz ermine]

i almost always crash when nearby combat happens or bodies start piling up

and then there is the cant pass anti cheat thing

[faint folio]

They probably changed a lot of code, though. They probably are going through the changes they made, but going line by line will take a very long time to catch the error

[faint folio]

Yeah but that bug predates the crash bug

[topaz ermine]

never had it before this update

[faint folio]

I have

It happened occasionally when trying to load into a full server

[topaz ermine]

and they made tweaks to it recently

[faint folio]

Right, but they also tweaked NV and did some bug fixes. Any of the above could be relatef

[topaz ermine]

i think the way the fps drops when it tries to load a section of map at once also causes a trigger

im also getting character image fading leftover images like slow motion never had that before either

[fickle oar]

Hey! I was going to make it a suggestion, but didn't want to look like a fool if it was already in the works lol

[gritty terrace]

@unreal ridge oh god oh no oh shitt

that copypasta for it tho lmfao

[unreal ridge]

imagine growing a rex to 100% and just getting kaboom'd by that monster

at first I was gonna suggest the .577 tyrannosaur rifle

but something was... missing

[faint folio]

I don't know of anything in the works but I haven't watched recent dev streams so I'm a little behind on news lol

[vocal venture]

Hey guys, once Evrima is finished and released what is going to happen with the Legacy version?

[unreal ridge]

deleted ig

[vocal venture]

I heard a rumour that they will shut off the servers

[unreal ridge]

after evrimas finished what would be the point of legacy?

[icy lion]

It's likely that evrima will become the main branch and replace legacy entirely

[vocal venture]

I know a lot of people that can't play Evrima because it is too heavy and we can't afford a better PC

idk if they will optimize it bcause it doesn't seems like

[unreal ridge]

well by the time it's finished its bound to be more optimized.... hopefully

[vocal venture]

I see... let's hope for it

[faint folio]

Maybe you could suggest they keep legacy as a branch? One that is labeled unsupported of course

[vocal venture]

I was talking with some friends and it we thought it would be cool if they release the Legacy brand for the public so they can mod as they wish, like what people do in gta 5 or minecraft with those launcher

[faint folio]

When they make evrima the main branch

[vocal venture]

players could finish what they couldn't etc etc

[faint folio]

Eh idk about that

Making it fully public could pose complications

[vocal venture]

idk how that could be problem since the developers will not keep that version, server owners could have total acess to the game's code and change whatever they want and fix some things

also when Evrima is going to be fully released?

and when they will shutdown Legacy? Is there any date already?

[unreal ridge]

if you put legacy up, couldn't Dondi or the original isle just send a cease and desist and shut you down

[icy lion]

There's no way to know

[vocal venture]

thanks

[faint folio]

Well, a few things could be problematic

1. if they reused any portion of legacy's code at all, it could allow hackers the chance to study the code and find vulnerabilities that also affect evrima

2. legal issues. Depending on contracts with their developers, they may not be legally allowed to release legacy assets to the public domain.

3. they're a small studio; a larger company could pretty easily copy legacy code and release a competing game if they wanted to. This may happen anyways but it's a lot harder if they do it from scratch

4. this may be petty, but -- they want you to play their game. The version that matches their vision for how a horror dino survival game should be. And if evrima is that game, then... Why would they want to offer an unfinished mess?

[vocal venture]

haven't thought about that

the 4th one is obvious but the other ones I haven't, makes sense

[gritty terrace]

the devs stated it themselves where they will delete legacy after there are more players continuously in evrima than there is in legacy

[echo tiger]

Hey guys, thanks for tuning into forgotten weapons.com, im Ian Mccollum

In all seriousness tho .950 JDJ is so impractical and funny that i kinda want it to be in the game.

[unreal ridge]

boom stick

boom log*

[echo tiger]

Im just wondering how guns are going to play, Dinos are most defo not going to be bullet sponges i'd hope

[unreal ridge]

im just hoping in the future theres gonna be sniping compilations "boom. headshot"

[echo tiger]

kill cams

[unreal ridge]

just a slo-mo bullet cam

[bleak birch]

@queen swift agreed super heavily! At the very least I feel Utah should be added to the diet given how often Ptera go after Utah babies.

As a Ptera, I can kill Hypsis and all other Dino babies, but it’s unfortunate that even though I have the ability to take down so many small Dinos, only 1 player Dino is actually a diet.

[sage crescent]

@agile lark pachy headbutting is already a thing... its just bugged atm

Where you may floor and break eachother with a contest

[rare fractal]

@cursive sky it’s X, btw don’t ask questions in feedback channels or the mods may boop you

[cursive sky]

oh mb

[rare fractal]

Np 👍

[cursive sky]

ty

x does not work

[rare fractal]

Hmmm, have you checked your key binds in settings?

[urban flax]

There's a fix pinned in #announcements I believe

If not, in evrima trouvleshooting

[cursive sky]

NV does not exist for me

[gritty terrace]

you have to go into your files and delete your saves

one minute

[cursive sky]

k

[gritty terrace]

#announcements message

@cursive sky here you go

[cursive sky]

ty

[pure quiver]

@gritty terrace I feel like the long neck distinguishes Alberto from Rex in silhouette a lot better. In Legacy I got confused between a Rex and an Alberto because I wanted the cool stripes alberto had on my rex and couldn't do it 😅

@past kindle I 100% agree! Anything above the ankle and below the knee Carno (And any other dino that cant jump) should be able to step over debris

@rare fractal I feel like lightning could stun and cause minor damage IF... and I mean IIFF lighting will interact with players. If not you could always do lightning BotW-style and have hit NEAR the player, toppling trees and starting small fires

[agile lark]

As far as I am aware, its not a thing anymore. It deals amazing and breaks each other's legs if you headbutt one another. What I speak of is unique animations that you can perform by standing in front of one another and both holding the button or something. Just a fun thing to do. Perhaps they can make it to where it cant be canceled and the animation plays in its entirety, giving predators the edge if they happen upon a coupld of playing dinos. Also, it would be a scenic thing for humans to observe.

[gritty terrace]

well I was talking more about how tapwing did it, it was just wrong, I realized it had nothing to do with the design

[rare fractal]

Yeah I'd honestly prefer that over "Lol how about you get 70% of your hp deleted because you decided to play Galli today"

[pure quiver]

I feel ya

[gritty terrace]

but I think the crest would make it easier to tell it apart sillouette wise and they are are already making the head smaller as well so the silhouette wont be an issue

[pure quiver]

Imagine FINALLY making it to Adult in Stego and "CRAKAPOW! Goodbye to the cow"

[pure quiver]

Ah yeah, I see that

[gritty terrace]

I just think not having lightning is the best way to go, it sounds extremely irritating, there is no reason to add something in the game that punishes you for no reason

and if you are going to make it so rare whats the point of having it to begin with

[pure quiver]

Well.... it's not "No reason" people seem to think some unfortunate weather is harmless. In a hardcore survival setting, weather can be deadly

And again, having it be rare can be fun and surprising.

[gritty terrace]

with it effecting your smell its already kinda a death wish lmfao

[rare fractal]

Finally grows a quetz....takes off for the first time as an adult....Zeus says no

[gritty terrace]

and I bet there will be other things to weather, I just think lighting isn't the way to go

[pure quiver]

Lol yeah I think personally that's funny, but I can see where you're at. I'm not saying "Lightning will kill you, suck sh*t", I'm saying have it interact with players

[gritty terrace]

I personally do not see the point

[rare fractal]

Not sure if any temperature related effects are planned, but rain can often induce hypothermia through conduction....really hoping that doesn't take its form in game (as more.....interactive and practical implications of weather could and should persist over just....lol get debuffed cuz you were slow bitch)

[pure quiver]

Topple some trees, start small fires, buzz some players to hide under the cover of the jungle or caves, or human buildings!

[gritty terrace]

that is more what I am thinking yeah

[rare fractal]

I'm fairly certain fires have been soft "anticonfirmed" due to the tremendous workload that comes with adding them

and....performance

[gritty terrace]

that is fair, forest fires would be very cool tho

[pure quiver]

True, I DID say SMALL fires. Like how in Zelda, the fires started by lightning get put out by the rain

[gritty terrace]

will have to optimize the hell out of it

[rare fractal]

They would....tho as far as gameplay implications I can't imagine it being anything but an inconvenience...everything just needs to move away from it and wait, you can't even capitalize on a potential hunting opportunity because of the spread of the flames so it's basically just a randomized interruption that fucks with your territory

[rare fractal]

Yeah that works FAR better

[gritty terrace]

doesn't really have to be big

[rare fractal]

Yeah that's the better side of the spectrum as far as I'm concerned

[pure quiver]

My whole argument is for the experience. It can be rare that you get struck for standing out in the open like a dope, but seeing it strike around you is enough to push you under cover. And then when it happens people can gawk about it like "Holy hell that was cool, I didnt know that could happen!" and it becomes more memorable! I believe that interactive storms can add to the experience of surviving a hostile island

[gritty terrace]

you guys mind if I post my ammunition post in here and you guys give your critique and see if it needs any changes?

[rare fractal]

Yeah I'd prefer it to be more.....sensational than any mortal threat

[rare fractal]

Sure!

[gritty terrace]

GUNS/AMMUNITION part 1 this one is dedicated to ammunition
calibers of ammunition:
for humans, guns are defiantly going to be a big part of the game but ammunition is always a strange subject in games, you can go from using the word "ammo" and use that for any gun to being the level of escape from tarkov where you have 30 different ammo types for every single caliber, I personally think that there should only be a few ammo types to not overcomplicate things. lets say we have .22 longrifle, 9mm, .45 ACP, .308, 12 gauge, and probably a special caliber or 2 for VERY big things that you would only have very few of at a time. depending on what region of the world you are in you would want to use 5.56 which is the most used in the west or 7.62x39 or any other AK derivative for anywhere else. That would keep it to the more common ammunition in the world so it would not overcomplicate things for people who lets say don't know much about guns. maybe a more less known ammunition that originates and or is standard in the region that the game is taking place as well

ammunition variation:
I think something like this in this game would be good for a small amount of variety and would be good for situational pourposes and lats say if you are late game human wise rather than just having a LOT of the same ammo being the late game, you have every type of ammo for that caliber, rare or not, to take down any situation. One way is to have 2 or 3 different ammo types for each caliber, each one would have HP (hollow point, which does more damage to flesh and is VERY bad against armor, so better against Utah), AP (Amor piercing, much better against something with armor but does overall less damage if against no armor, better for Magy/Anky) and FMJ (Full metal jacket, would be the in between of Hollow Point and Armor piercing and is a bit more general). most would have all 3 but some larger calibers may just have FMJ and AP. This would add variation but would not be too complicated

thoughts?

people were talking about it so I figured I could pitch in

[pure quiver]

I reckon tranqs and non-lethals could be more common. 3 types: Stun, slow, and blind.

From common to rare: Slow, Blind, Stun.
The tranqs would be more common than regular bullets.

And the non-lethals would be more common than tranqs

[gritty terrace]

I am not sure how tranqs would work in this game tho, it feels like it would either be irritating or worthless depending on how long the dinosaur is knocked out

[pure quiver]

So a taser on a stick is one of the most common, and a grenade the least common

[gritty terrace]

that does make sense

[pure quiver]

Slow, blinded ot stunned

[rare fractal]

I have a few issues with it:
1: Humans just shouldn't have armor piercing rounds for one, that's basically sentencing most if not all armored animals to death as they are all quite slow bar magy, and tbh I don't think armored animals should need to worry about getting in a humans way, part of the human experience should be needing to revolve your entire gameplay loop around the residents of the island instead of blatantly overpowering them, with firearms primarily serving as a last line of defense against dinos too small to see coming, like utahs troodons dilos etc... whereas the rest of the cast would need to have your technological edge leveraged to avoid.

2: Long range firearms are literally the worst idea proposed for the game so far idea but dondi seems to be a fan of it so I suppose we're working with it.
Their bullet variants should be non lethal status ailments to prevent abuse, like flares tranqs (not to knock out players but to reduce their stam...something along those lines) and these types of ammo should be astronomically rare as they can quite literally decimate any animal if shot at the right time.

[gritty terrace]

I may talk about that in part 2

[gritty terrace]

see, an argument with the AP thing, strains

every single hyper would have armor

[rare fractal]

Make rounds specifically effecting strains, the normal game shouldn't have to suffer through that, plus strains are a once in a blue moon type of situation, that ammo shouldn't be readily available nor useable against standard critters

[gritty terrace]

also long ranged stuff sounds amazing, I could just imagine being on a large hill sniping stuff from a range that comes by, absolutly love that concept

[gritty terrace]

that is why you make it extremely rare

[rare fractal]

It's literally lightning in it's worst case scenario

[rare fractal]

Rarity fixes almost no issues, it should simply only effect strains

[pure quiver]

I agree with Fluff, but I also think a goal of the game would be to get a rescue party via radio. So I guess you could find flares that drop care packages, like rare ammos and aid-kits. So Flares and building a radio would be rare and sought after

[gritty terrace]

it pretty much would, it would not be effecting much besides anky and magy

and AP would overall do less damage and would be more dedicated for things that are armored

cuz thats how... it works

[rare fractal]

Rarity only reduces the frequency of players having their progress illegitimately erased, it doesn't fix it, therefor we should nip the issue in the bud and remove the problem

[gritty terrace]

?

you already said that

[rare fractal]

But as you said, it only really effects Anky and Magy, why should we have dedicated rounds for killing those two dinos

[gritty terrace]

I am saying that because AP then would be less for base game and more for strains?

[rare fractal]

It should only be for strains, in which case its a great idea

[gritty terrace]

but if its ap why not make it against anky and magy, no sense to make it not

plus they are herbivores you would not want to waste end game ammo on them anyways

unless they are bugging you and are life threatning in the situation

[rare fractal]

They should be avoided, not engaged

[gritty terrace]

exactly

[pure quiver]

AP rounds? Were they around in the 80's?

[rare fractal]

90% of human gameplay should be centered around avoiding threats instead of shooting them, guns are already a terrible self defense tool they basically put a beacon on your location as soon as you fire them for the entire server

[gritty terrace]

dude they have been around since WW2

[pure quiver]

:1

[rare fractal]

Yeah they're fairly old, tho they've gotten much more effective over the decades

[pure quiver]

Well because the game is set in the 80's-90's I feel like having older guns would make more sense

[gritty terrace]

exactly, so you would not want to waste it on magy or anky anyways, if the entire game will go against you on doing that they won't, and if they do their the idiot

[rare fractal]

I don't even think the game should allow you to effectively use that ammo on them anyways

Because if they can, they will

[gritty terrace]

then the entire game will scew them

and they will not have ammo for lets say a strain comes

[pure quiver]

So, tasers and tranqs are the meta. You could taze an apex, then tranq it while it's stunned, then throw spears and shank it to death as a group

[rare fractal]

They still shouldn't be able to use it on them, there's no reason to allow them to it only permits trolling

[gritty terrace]

to be fair magy deserves to be trolled but thats a different convo

[rare fractal]

Or rather, griefing, as what is an anky even supposed to do against AP rounds

[gritty terrace]

anky is so big it would probably take a million to kill it anyways

[pure quiver]

Imagine using an AP on nothing but juvi apexes as if you're "Doing people a favour" and it just ruins the fun for everyone

[gritty terrace]

no reason to waste them

[gritty terrace]

that makes..... no sense

[rare fractal]

Why? Logistically it'd take like...1 maybe 2 shots? Unless we're going with unrealistic damage values for guns (which is a good idea btw)

[gritty terrace]

FMJ rounds would be for that situation cuz AP would do less damage to everything except for things that are armored

so at this point you are saying use ammo that is worse for that situation

[rare fractal]

What I'm really getting at is that their shouldn't really be a logistically way to kill an anky as mercs

Because why....

[pure quiver]

A pinhole through jelly, but a shattering for solid plates

[gritty terrace]

I do want more realistic values but nothing above medium tier should be 1 or 2 shot

[rare fractal]

Nothing above low tier should be a 1 shot.....

[gritty terrace]

then dont use it on anky

they should be more for strains anyways

[rare fractal]

That's why there should be strain specific ammo instead of just a general AP

[gritty terrace]

why not make it ap

makes no sense to make a strain specific

[rare fractal]

Why?

[gritty terrace]

what would be strain specific

[rare fractal]

Video game logic primarily

[gritty terrace]

tell me exactly what that would be

yes but tell me exactly what that would be

[rare fractal]

We literally have soul transference in lore....strain specific ammo isn't outlandish

[gritty terrace]

AP is the first thing that comes to mind

that also brings the question, if there is strain specific stuff why is there no AP

makes no sense

[rare fractal]

Because it'd be imbalanced

[gritty terrace]

just make it ap

no before anything it would be balanced just fine?

[pure quiver]

Maybe the only ammo available should be; regular bullets, tranquilizers, and improvised. You could add shrapnel to MAKE an AP round but it requires crafting?

[gritty terrace]

before anything crafting it would make it more common

[rare fractal]

If you literally can't kill armored targets aside from strains with it then I guess it'd be fine

[pure quiver]

This

[gritty terrace]

well there would be no point to make it so it doesn't kill anky and magy

those would be the only 2 things

and I can imagine a few situations where that comes in handy

[pure quiver]

Maybe a full mag could kill them, but if you want to 1 shot everything it wouldn't make the game fun

[gritty terrace]

YOU ARE JUST ASSUMING THINGS NOW

why would it 1 shot

that just wouldnt be balanced

[rare fractal]

Scarcity doesn't make it any less of a problem, imagine how much a f$ck you it is from the game for you to be in the forest, playing your magy, and you just instantly die out of nowhere because a merc with AP rounds was sitting in a bush

[gritty terrace]

well with how small magy is it could die in that situation with fmj rounds as well

[rare fractal]

I mean, you said mid tiers should be the cap on 1 to 2 shots....magy isn't even a mid tier

[gritty terrace]

yes it is?

[rare fractal]

Magy is teno sized or smaller, it's a low tier

[gritty terrace]

if cerato is mid tier magy is DEFINATLY mid tier

[rare fractal]

Well...cerato isn't

Cerato got massively downsized from legacy it's not a mid anymore

[gritty terrace]

I have heard cerato is but that does make more sense

thank god that made no sense

[pure quiver]

Okay, not insta-kill from AP rounds, but maybe anything above Utah size would take more than 2 shots from ANY round. Except maybe a shotgun.

So here's what I have in mind...
Shotgun: 1 Utah, 2 Teno, 3 Allo, 5 Rex, 10 Anky
Rifle (FMJ): 3 Utah, 8 Teno, 10 Allo, 20 Rex, 60 Anky
Rifle (AP): 5 Utah, 10 Teno, 12 Allo, 22 Rex, 20 Anky
Pistol (FMJ): 15 Utah, 25 Teno, 35 Allo, 60 Rex, 70 Anky

etc.

[gritty terrace]

also this makes no sense as well, thats like saying of if there is a rex next to you what will you do?

[rare fractal]

Hide, you can fit in any bush on the map so that helps, see it coming before it reaches you and take countermeasures to go around it, set up game cameras....etc

[gritty terrace]

dude I don't even want to talk about damage that is for the devs to decide I just want to suggest ammo types

like...... ap wont be that much better than fmj

[rare fractal]

Well...your ammo types specifically alter the damage the rounds do so it's sorta relevant

[gritty terrace]

you guys are blowing this way out of proportion

im saying arbitrary "ap does slightly more to specifically armor" not if it 1 shots or not

[rare fractal]

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, got any more ammo type ideas?

[gritty terrace]

hollow point, it would be more for small things, would do more damage to flesh but would do pretty much nothing to higher tiers

hollow point is very very bad against armor

hollow point would pretty much do slightly more damage than fmj when it comes to non armored targets but with armor it would be quite literally useless

and these would only be in smaller tiers like 9mm etc

or, hollow point can do more bleed

cuz that makes sense for what it is too

the point of it is to spread out in the flesh but also get a bigger entrence would so more bleed or more damage is acceptable

[rare fractal]

For ammo types I'd probably lean towards status differences instead of damage aptitude tbh.....like tranqs or flares....something that mechanically impacts the effects instead of just balance, it's not a bad thing to have these damage favorability ammo types but they're more of a "if they're needed they'll be added" instead of something you go in planning for, especially since they're entirely dependent on how strong humans are even supposed to be.. like some questions you may want to ask are "are humans even supposed to pressure armored targets" or "wouldn't hollow points just be a flat buff to normal rounds since their are only 2-3 armored animals in game" etc...then go from there

It's novel to have these damage type rounds but I'm just wondering if they're even necessary

[gritty terrace]

well I just think having ammo variety would be good either way, because it would be less of this does more damage than that it is more, this does better in this situation than that so its less of 1 is better than the other and more of if I have every ammo type I am more prepared for a wider range of situations

[pure quiver]

I see that.

[gritty terrace]

1 wont be better than the other, it is situational

[rare fractal]

Oh I definitely agree that variety can be neat, tho I'm just wondering how wide a range of situations humans should even be capable in for direct confrontation

being adaptable to most combat encounters isn't necessarily good

Especially for the only ranged class in game

[gritty terrace]

I think if you are in absolute late game you should be able to take care of most things in a group cuz it feels like humans are the ultimate glass cannons. yes, they would be able to kill things quickly but if ANYTHING gets the jump on them and or is an apex it is just straight death

even a damn omniraptor pounce, that would just stright up kill a human armor or not honestly

so I think it would be fun that humans would be extreamly fragile but can kill things quicker late game

[pure quiver]

Going back to lightning being a terrifying display but ultimately a minor annoyance... Icelandi and I talked about rare events occurring. Mostly just lightning and meteor showers, and gaining achievements through Steam

[pure quiver]

I agree

[rare fractal]

If we were to borderline soft cap their combat effectiveness at the middle of mid tier....then that can be fine....but most animals in game are too large to justify not avoiding instead of fighting, late or early game it doesn't matter

[gritty terrace]

I personally think armor in the game would mostly be used just for other players, armor vs dinosaurs I think would barely be a difference

[rare fractal]

Most likely just in the case of plate vests....etc

[gritty terrace]

well it depends on group size too or how much ammo you have or how dumb the dinosaur is

but when it comes to group size it would be MUCH harder to spread out ammunition and with if a dino is just standing there and taking it you should be able to kill it

but yeah for just a general thing without skill involved I agree

[rare fractal]

It's a VERY slippery slope, you gotta remember that most dinos don't have countermeasures for firearms.....but if they're standing their and you have literally all the ammo on the map then yeah I'd say you could take down a stego with a big enough group, it just shouldn't be seen as necessary or remotely common

[gritty terrace]

but also 90% of the dinos in the game are faster than humans so 💀

that is already an automatic death wish in most situations

[rare fractal]

Right but firearms and small size kinda remove that limitation through range and undetectability outside of noise, but if you're just sitting in a bush on a hill sniping from 500 meters nobody will know where you are

[gritty terrace]

I think would how slow and fragile humans are comnpared to everything else even if they can output high damage I think they can be balanced very easily

[gritty terrace]

sniping is a different situation, I genuinely think the devs are smart enough to not make it like call of duty and you have to make yourself law down and vulnerable to actually do anything within sniping range

so yes, you may have an advantage on that 1 spot you are sniping at, close range you are screwed

[rare fractal]

I just wouldn't add snipers myself :P
Or make their damage against dinos next to nothing....but effective against humans....idk you really just can't balance snipers without making them deal barely any damage

[gritty terrace]

and I hope they do sniping like in tarkov or battlefield, where they actually take skill

nah, damage isnt the only way to balance a weapon

[rare fractal]

For snipers it is

The skill expression is entirely one sided

Nesting grounds critters literally can't do anything but hope the potential human misses

[gritty terrace]

not really, you can make it lets saw 1 shot but make mobility, bullet drop, fire rate and other factors pretty much balance it

you have 1 shot and if you miss you are screwed

[rare fractal]

If you can 1 shot literally any dino with a sniper it's categorically imbalanced

[gritty terrace]

well probably not apex's

[rare fractal]

Again, the skill expression is entirely one sided

[rare fractal]

Nothing....literally nothing

[gritty terrace]

that just takes the fun out of it

why make something take so high skill and get so little out of it

make it actually high skill to do like in tarkov or battlefield

[rare fractal]

Because it's specifically anti human

[rare fractal]

Again, entirely one sided skill expression, I don't care how hard it is the dino can't do anything to prevent their own death

[gritty terrace]

dude you know most "snipers" are anti tank right?

[gritty terrace]

idk move

[rare fractal]

Yes, I'm an avid firearms enthusiast myself....I want the game to be balanced more than I want accurate guns tho

[gritty terrace]

that would drastically increase likleyhood of surviving if you have bullet drop

[rare fractal]

Lol nesting....

[gritty terrace]

dont nest in the open

that is kinda their fault

[rare fractal]

Nesting grounds are literally open fields

[gritty terrace]

and?

I do not see an issue with snipers

that would just be fun and make you extremely vulnerable

that is the point of sniping

[rare fractal]

Then it shouldn't be in a game where 99% of the playables can't account for it properly

[gritty terrace]

hell you could do sniper variants of the Rifles where it just uses the rifle rounds

the only thing you would have at that point is range

and it would be balanced like an actual rifle rather than a sniper

like there are a million ways you can do sniping, that is a good way to do it too

take an assult rifle and put a scope on it, that would work

youd have to deal with it being automatic but it would work

[rare fractal]

If you don't see how snipers make nesting, corpse defending, or resting next to impossible then we don't have anything more to discuss...

[gritty terrace]

kill the human

or drag the body

[rare fractal]

How he's already shot you?

[gritty terrace]

or hell if the body is too big for you just hide behind it

[gritty terrace]

?

and also even with suppressors snipers are loud so it may be something to do at range but even after 1 shot you are ringing the dinner bell

like it is balanced just fine

[rare fractal]

If you're nesting, defending a kill, or near death because you just got out of a fight and a human saw that, and snipers 1 shot nearly 70% of the animals in game....then you're basically only playing dinos for the random chance that a sniper human will literally never see you, on top of nesting being a completely suicidal venture as you quite literally have to sit on the eggs for extended periods of time to incubate them

[gritty terrace]

if you are going to use a sniper that is your death wish, but it will help with some situations and be fun

[gritty terrace]

that would happen with literally any weapon as well

even nonlethal

[rare fractal]

I think you're starting to notice why I think firearms are an awful idea for this game

[gritty terrace]

that will add it in the game either way

i think it will be great

[rare fractal]

I know...

[gritty terrace]

if you dont want to deal with it go to a dino only server

those will 100% exist

and they will be so hard to get it will be rare anyways

[rare fractal]

I was just hoping I could play on servers with humans and not despise my gameplay....oh well

[gritty terrace]

they would also be very situational

idk I see no issue with it besides what will happen with every other gun in the game as well

and plus I am pretty sure dondis inspiration for humans is escape from tarkov, so it may just 1 shot anyways

which I don't mind, its a gun in a hardcore survival game

[rare fractal]

Again, as I said, if you don't agree on the baseline that dino gameplay becomes vapid and pointless with realistic snipers then we don't have anything more to discuss

[gritty terrace]

there isn't really any hardcore games with guns that don't depict them too badly when it comes to damage

it doesn't its balanced

[rare fractal]

Considering no dino in this game deals realistic damage with literally any attack I don't see it as much of a departure

[gritty terrace]

yes but they are also dinosaurs, yes you can get roughly what they can do but we dont have anything to tell us how much damage it does

while guns are you know....... in current age

also dinos in the game deal realitivly realistic damage

[rare fractal]

Are you seriously implying that it's even remotely feasible that a stego impaling a carnos torso with it's meter long thagomizers doesn't instantly kill it?

[gritty terrace]

hell if you bite something small enough you just pick it up

[gritty terrace]

depends on how much force is behind it and other things

but also stego just shouldnt be in the game rn so it is balanced strange

[rare fractal]

Utah deino and carno would all 1 shot stego, a utah pounce would 1 shot everything in the game, a pachy ram would 1 shot a carno, a carno bite would 1 shot anything that isn't a deino....etc

[gritty terrace]

so that is just a bad example

[rare fractal]

Every animal in game is an example so I don't even need stego

[gritty terrace]

now I know you dont know what you are talking about cuz the omni pounce is just fine, carno would absolutly not 1 shot stego and pachy just wouldn't ram but I understand doing that creative liberty

I do agree the deino should do much more damage tho and maybe bone break

[rare fractal]

I'm talking about realistic damage numbers, I would NEVER balance the game this way that would be insane

[gritty terrace]

but the game is already kinda realistic damage numbers????

[rare fractal]

Not even a little lol

I'm not kidding, a utah biting the neck of a stego would kill the stego if the damage values were realistic

[gritty terrace]

give me examples because those ones you put above were garbage

no? utah didn't have that much of a bite force and not that big of teeth

when you use other parts of your body besides your head your head gets nerfed

look at a magaraptoran, arms are huge with claws but with a small head, then look at rex, rex mostly uses its head

thats like saying trrodon would 1 shot a teno

that is dumb and not realistic at all

[rare fractal]

Of the dromeasaurs it had one of the highest biteforces, primarily because it was so large. It couldn't perform Raptor Prey restraint like some of it's smaller relatives and lives akin to that of a hypercarnivores bear, a stegos head is nearly the same size as a utahs, nicking a vein isn't out of the question

[gritty terrace]

but remember this isn't utah it is its own thing as well

omni is much smaller than an actual utah

[rare fractal]

It's literally the same size

[gritty terrace]

id imagine actual utah doing a lot more damage

nah actual utah is a little bigger

[rare fractal]

Omni is smack dab in the middle of utah weight estimates, they're the same size

[gritty terrace]

but it does make sense for it to have a stronger bite force but it would not 1 shot a stego

oh huh, I figured omni was smaller

but still

[rare fractal]

If anything omni would be WAY stronger than an irl utah, irl utahs most likely couldn't even jump more than a foot or so off the ground without injuring themselves because of their mass, omni can clear double it's own height

[gritty terrace]

everything in the game is decently realistic with it still being balanced

[rare fractal]

Lol that's hilarious

[gritty terrace]

and the devs want it more hardcore

[cyan flame]

I think the main point here was that the critters don't always have realistic damage, or abilities for that matter. So the same could be applied to guns, if we need to have those in the first place. But there's no reason really, when we could give the mercs proper evasive and defensive measures instead and give them the proper horror experience, rather than allow for them to go out hunting dinosaurs with snipers. And for those worried about strains, there's an easy fix: You have your anti strain weapons, locked to your bases. Any dino dumb enough to go near, yeah, you die. But you can't take that weapon with you, so you can't go out and hunt other dinos with it, it'd be purely a defensive locked position.

[rare fractal]

I'm doubling down on this, the only animal in game with arguably realistic damage values is hypsi and maybe dryo.....maybe...everything else either deals too much or too little...

[gritty terrace]

?

but it is still reasonable damage

anyways

idk it just depends how the devs want to go about it

and no matter your weapons this game will still kill you and still have a horror vibe

[rare fractal]

It takes 18 headshots from a carno to kill a stego.... it takes 7 headshots to kill a teno, both critters would go down in 1 headshot if the game had realistic consequences for damage.....

[gritty terrace]

because humans are fragile

yeah the headshot portion is nerfed I can agree with that

[cyan flame]

You know, it would be vaguely interesting to test out more realistic damage and consequenses in fights, but it'd be absolutely brutal to deal with.

[rare fractal]

I'd absolutely hate it, but it'd be interesting

[gritty terrace]

I think I would like it

[rare fractal]

It'd basically just be who clicked first wins at that point

[gritty terrace]

nah it would totally be positioning

[rare fractal]

It already is, just with more eb and flow

Like seriously a carno would bleed a teno to death in 1 body shot easily....that would be awful

[gritty terrace]

no, that I disagree with

body shots in this game I think are reasonable

especially bleed wise

[cyan flame]

Anyway, the issue with guns is the lack of proper counterplay, as well as the lack of real need to let the mercs go out hunting dinos and all that. There's no need for that to give humans good and interesting gameplay. And there's no good way to balance guns, no matter the amount of "skill" you add, because it is as pointed out earlier, one sided. And having someone sit somewhere as a sniper, just waiting for something to come by to kill it, then yes, we could just as well have random lightning strikes, because it makes as much sense.

[rare fractal]

wtf xD

Ok I'm done

[gritty terrace]

besides the dinos hitting tendons and making them less mobile after doing damage it is just fine?

[cyan flame]

If you made headshots more lethal, which you could, then you'd also have to make combat abilties way better, and more movement options in combat at that. Otherwise you'd basically only have things like utah and dryo survive, the rest would die so very easily.

[gritty terrace]

yeah that makes sense

but yeah anyways I do think guns should do a decent amount of damage since humans are so fragile

[cyan flame]

But even if they were more lethal, it should still take at least 3-4 hits for similar sized critters and all that, and then more depending on power differences and all of course. But at no point should it be one shots, since that takes away pretty much all skill and makes it come down to luck.

[rare fractal]

By that logic shouldn't dryo or hypsi have some of the highest damage in the game?

[cyan flame]

Problem is, being fragile does not matter. It's a terrible argument because dying easy does not matter at all when you can barely get hit in the first place. Look at utah, and you'll see. Or dryo.

[gritty terrace]

?

[rare fractal]

Both are fragile

[gritty terrace]

yes but they have mobility to run away

most of the stuff in this game are fater than humans

[rare fractal]

Humans have the stealth and technology to both hide and detect threats before they need to come within eyeshot of them....

[cyan flame]

Humans can have all kinds of stealth equipment and stuff though. Which is another way of balancing the humans.

[rare fractal]

Humans have concrete fortresses with electrified fences as well

[gritty terrace]

that is fair, that I think is a good argument

[cyan flame]

You could give them all kinds of tools that just makes it very hard for anything aside from small stuff like utah size range to even get near, much less catch a human.

And having guns that are primarily close quarter defense, would be fine, since that'd be limited to defending against said small and fast raptors and others. It's the whole hunting bigger animals that is seen as an issue to me.

[rare fractal]

I'd even extend that to mid tiers tbh

[gritty terrace]

idk i think snipers would give a good thing on pvp and make defnding against dinos fun

just gotta do them right

[rare fractal]

Tactical nukes could be fun....

[gritty terrace]

?

you have the shittiest arguments

[cyan flame]

And personally, I'd much rather see humans be given those evasive tools, flares, ghillie suits, stuff that can give out false tracks/scents, smoke grenades. All kinds of stuff that isn't neccesarily directly lethal, but can ruin any dinosaur when it comes to their hunting abilitiy.

[rare fractal]

I'm literally using your standards to define how overpowered weapons aren't justified because they're fun

[cyan flame]

A sniper isn't really a defensive weapon, is it?

[gritty terrace]

yeah I would like to see that too

sniper posts....... its kinda the definition of a defending weapon

[cyan flame]

I don't think you should be able to defend "fight" wise against dinosaurs, that just makes it boring and overpowered for the humans. Let them be properly terrified of the dinosaurs instead.

[gritty terrace]

you wouldn't assult things with a sniper

well no, just make it hard to get your hands on it

[cyan flame]

I mean, if you want to limit a sniper position to a base, then sure, that'd work.

[gritty terrace]

that is pretty much what I am saying

[cyan flame]

As long as the base is reasonably visible and easy to notice and avoid for the dinosaurs, so they don't have to go near that is.

[gritty terrace]

that would be the only situation it would be useful

[cyan flame]

But yeah, absolutely, I'm fine with giving bases powerful defensive weaponry since the dinosaurs shouldn't go near that, unless they're small enough to get in, which would also allow them some potential to avoid being hit by the guns in the first place.

[gritty terrace]

well it would become a place where it would be known to be a deathwish to go near anyways

[rare fractal]

Snipers would be insanely useful near nesting grounds as well

[cyan flame]

@gritty terraceTo be fair, you do go out and hunt things with a sniper too. Hence it can be used offensively, but if it's locked to a position like a base, then it'd be fine. And yes, going near human bases should be a terrile idea, unless you're a raptor or troodon or something meant to go hunt humans.

[gritty terrace]

yeah honestly that will be fun, after 1 shot you boook it because after 1 shot everyone in the map knows where you are

you wouldnt be able to camp it much

[cyan flame]

The problem there is that the guy that just died out of nowhere is still dead, with nothing to do about it, and no way to have played better.

[rare fractal]

Doesn't mean a player didn't just have all their hours illegitimately wasted by the shot you managed to fire

[gritty terrace]

welcome to hardcore games.... kinda how it goes

[cyan flame]

So it's not a valid argument for the issue. Again, see lightning strikes. You could argue that sure, I should stay inside or hidden, but then you need to give those options, and then if people do, you'd never have anyone to snipe, just like how no one drinks at deep water.

[rare fractal]

Why are we even giving humans methods of self defense if the game is supposed to be THAT hardcore?

Plus this is first and foremost a survival game

[cyan flame]

Just because it's hardcore does not mean it has to be stupid. There's a difference there.

[gritty terrace]

once again I have also mentioned they dont have to 1 shot as well or dont even add snipers, just put a scope on a normal rifle

[cyan flame]

Again, we could make headshots oneshot, but it'd probably not be as fun as we imagine, even if it'd be very hardcore.

[gritty terrace]

you have never played escape from tarkov my friend

anyways

[rare fractal]

I have, tarkov is not the isle

[cyan flame]

I have not no, but I do not imagine that game being half as difficult as people make it out to be honestly.

[rare fractal]

They are very different games

[cyan flame]

Games in general are easy.

[gritty terrace]

dondi is looking at it for inspiration I believe

[rare fractal]

It's hard, but it's not unfair

[gritty terrace]

it kinda is unfair lmao

a guy with a pistol can kill a guy who has endgame stuff easy

but damage can also be changed up because dondi is also into killing floor

that would be a fun take too

doing something like killing floor would be very fun if you did it right

idk I am not disagreeing with you but some things being unfair is what makes hardcore games hardcore

like tarkov or green hell or darkest dungeon

those are the games I like

[cyan flame]

Problem is that it has to be the right kind of unfair

[gritty terrace]

that is a good point

[rare fractal]

That isn't the game being unfair, getting endgame gear affords you more agency than those who're earlier on but it doesn't guarantee immunity from those players, endgame in Tarkov is mostly about the amount of options you have

[rare fractal]

It's not even unfair to begin with

[gritty terrace]

same with the situation with a rex and a guy with a pistol

its the exact same situation

honestly

[cyan flame]

It can be unfair in the sense of "I can do nothing" and that's not fun. It can be unfair in the sense of "I can not fight this thing but I can run away easily" (not fair if you want to be able to kill everything). And so on. I don't know about Tarkov, but how easy is it to A, counter being shot at, and B, recover from dying?

[rare fractal]

Not even a little.....the balancing systems in both games are not comparable when dinos are being considered

[gritty terrace]

or rex against an assult rifle I should say

[rare fractal]

A rex can't fire back

[gritty terrace]

yes but they are tanky and can just 1 shot you in a whim

[rare fractal]

No it can't, it has to be closer than point blank to damage you at all, if you're far enough from it you'll kill it easily, and if it's too close to kill you can duck in any bush on the map and it won't see you

[gritty terrace]

then it can run

it has options

idk I do not really care how much damage everything has I just want long range engagements somehow

that would be the most fun thing in this game personally

[rare fractal]

Running is a pretty poor option when your opponent has a ranged weapon....

[gritty terrace]

dude wanna know the best counter for snipers

go into the forest

boom

[rare fractal]

Again, please address nesting

[gritty terrace]

once again, if it is only a base camp thing that is their fault

[cyan flame]

Do keep in mind we got plains animals too.

Not everything spends it's life in a forest full of covers after all.

[gritty terrace]

makes sense

and I am not saying you are wrong

there are just a million ways to balance it while my friend over here is saying dont put it in the game

there are penty of ways of going about it

as long as there is some type of long range engagements i am happy

[rare fractal]

This isn't just an issue for snipers....how do you balance any rifle around nesting

[cyan flame]

I'm not saying it can't be balanced at all, or at least not attempted, more that it's very hard and not very likely to be well balanced, due to mentioned issues. But a lot of that can be solved if you can't just run around with anything more powerful than personal defense against raptors and stuff. While anything more powerful is locked down, giving you the option if you get attacked, but otherwise limiting your ability to go out hunting things. Aside from that, I personally like the idea of evasive and defensive mercs more, I really think that take would be much more fun and filled with horror but also rewarding when you get away from whatever is hunting you and thinking you an easy meal.

[rare fractal]

Like seriously a 22 is more than enough to take down anything at a nesting grounds FROM the forest or treeline

[gritty terrace]

kill them, and if you dont run

[rare fractal]

You have to be sitting down to nest...

You don't get to instigate the engagement

[gritty terrace]

id understand making weapons extremely rare because of this

[rare fractal]

your ability to even partake in the engagement is dependent on them missing you first

[gritty terrace]

well there are multiples of you

[rare fractal]

Why would that matter, I've already died

[gritty terrace]

well that is like saying what do I do if a huta sneaks up to a hypsi nest, same situation