discussing the use of qbot for self promotion and very long walls of text

[gusty mirage]

this comes from #bot-commands message, where Luna user uses qbot for self promotion, with a way long wall of text. I'm not against self promotion, but I don't think it's the proper way of doing so. if user were to leave server for several reasons, the note would remain there, unnoticed by users or staff. also, even inside #bot-commands it becomes into spam. @fast lantern @snow horizon gave their own thoughts on the matter. personally I think that there should be a better way to self promote yourself, without using qbot this way. to clarify, I'm not attacking anyone, as I want a fair solution. I personally use qbot to add notes, but as discussed with Ivy, those are mostly manpages or info related to support or linux, yet I try to keep them short. you can add your thoughts here.

[void lotus]

<@&399818870568779776> @lime egret

[void lotus]

We don't actually encourage support notes anymore, at least as far as pointers to the support channels go

#bot-commands is designed to deal with exactly that problem so I don't really see that it's an issue tbh

[lime egret]

The question I have is is the self promotion gratuitous

[lime egret]

Same

[hollow canyon]

no useful inputs from me

[lime egret]

It is an atypical use of the bot but I don’t understand what damage it is doing

[void lotus]

This is sort of where I'm at with it, it's not hurting anyone so why worry about it

[hollow canyon]

if there was a bad note we can also delete notes

[void lotus]

It'd be different if the notes were graphic or offensive in nature

[hollow canyon]

there have been a few of those

[lime egret]

I remember one person uploaded a…blue…repository, and deleted the commands they used to create it, thinking that protected them.
Then they had “no memory” of doing it.

[hollow canyon]

we are protected against those as well

there have been cases of trolls using it to spam useless messages and deleting the command that called the bot to show it

pretty easy to crack

[lime egret]

.nid works, don’t usually like to advertise the thing you mentioned as being a thing

[hollow canyon]

eh its fairly common in larger discord servers

its not like we are obssessing over it but its a critical moderation tool

[plain kayak]

this is only tangentially related but I don't think echo should be a thing

[gusty mirage]

I don't even use those, and you know and even can find me only adding and using useful info related to Linux and arch.

[crimson trench]

I am against note access for non-(HU or +) altogether...

[gusty mirage]

I'm not saying it's bad, just already explained it.

[civic cloak]

When everyone is granted anonymity and freedom with tools like this, the result is usually far from pretty

[fast lantern]

from a personal point of view, it qould be better to not add notes that aren't helpful. my reasoning being the fact that the github repository (here: https://github.com/arch-community/qbot) states
"qbot is the bot used by the unofficial Arch Linux community on Discord. Originally its only function was to manage support channels, but it has evolved to do much more.", and i dont believe such notes of selfadvertisements to be helpful when managing the support channels (as qbots purpose was). hence why my input was that its less spammy to selfhost a site (or use carrd) instead of the note.

thats my personal opinion on it at least

[civic cloak]

Is there the option to purge notes?

[fast lantern]

quick thing i forgot to mention: im not saying the notes are harmful in any way. but they dont really help either (not for support anyways). just feels like clutter

[lime egret]

Your explanation doesn't really explain why it is improper to use qbot that way, if a note gets left, it may or may not be deleted later, so, that as a concern feels incomplete?

[lime egret]

only if bobby tables makes an entry /j

[nocturne jasper]

hot take: only HUs and mods should be allowed to even use them

[civic cloak]

That's not a hot take, it's the truth

Why is this feature even publicly available

It's so prone to abuse

[nocturne jasper]

[gusty mirage]

make or type ...?

if it's the later I semi agree

[crimson trench]

make and use imo

[gusty mirage]

example someone uses hyprland/sway, people type ...sway/hyprland not even 3 seconds go by with someone say "I don't care" "separate the art from the artist"

then the next time someone post's about hyprland/sway it gets posted not even 3 seconds from the last post

hyprland/sway get spammed often

I know what you are thinking, "don't you do that", no I don't post it 3 seconds from when it gets posted

@woeful carbon thoughts?

[prisma solar]

it's a general utility bot, i add all sorts of things

the support channel thing was that you could add to a list of questions

[prisma solar]

yeah

[civic cloak]

Good, consider purging many of the notes

[crimson trench]

My suggestion: purge all notes, restrict to staff and then staff add useful ones

[prisma solar]

we have had several internal tickets for exactly that, where we go over all the notes and remove unwanted ones

[prisma solar]

we have snippets already, that's what those do

.ls

[alpine zinc]

Available snippets

rs, ask, freespeech, paste, xyproblem, manjaro, pastebin.com, archbased, nvidia, tias, firefox, whyswap, news, coc, q, litany, plurality, tickets, whylgbt

[prisma solar]

.s ask

[alpine zinc]

Don't ask to ask. https://dontasktoask.com/

[crimson trench]

If notes are purged do these get deleted or stay?

[prisma solar]

they're a different DB table

[crimson trench]

Nice

[prisma solar]

the notes exist to reduce staff workload by allowing the community to do it

that also lets new ideas be tested out

[crimson trench]

I agree with that but I feel like with how it is implemented right now it has more disadvantages than advantages

[prisma solar]

what are the main disadvantages?

[civic cloak]

Only let those who are kind and helpful to everyone add new notes, instead of letting your average shitposter flood them

[crimson trench]

Harrassment using notes, walls of spam, posting memes using notes, there was the support notes as well which were removed so that's good ig

[snow horizon]

I wouldn't call the hyprland note a shitpost.

[crimson trench]

It's not but it's also one of the biggest sources of arguments and shitstorms on this server

[civic cloak]

^

[snow horizon]

Reminds me of how Elon stans got pissy over the salute being pointed out.

[crimson trench]

That's not what i'm saying and i'm honestly pretty offended that you're comparing me with that piece of shit

Ugh...

[civic cloak]

Comparing a good person to Elon Musk (or any of its supporters) is like wearing a swimsuit in a nudist beach

[snow horizon]

Vaxry? Good person?

Same guy who said genocide could be justified.

[civic cloak]

I thought you compared OfficerK

[snow horizon]

I trust him.

[civic cloak]

I misunderstand things so easily, I'm sorry

[crimson trench]

Well I'm not understanding shit right now

Were u attacking me or not

Cuz I took it as an attack against me

[snow horizon]

Then I apologise.

[prisma solar]

i treat notes in the same way as i treat people's messages

at any point someone could choose to copy/paste something a bunch

it should be addressed the same way

[crimson trench]

But it's not rly the same because with notes it's harder to know who it originated from

Much harder to moderate

[civic cloak]

Just disable notes entirely and limit them to people who are helpful and/or trusted

[prisma solar]

i can change that

we already know where notes come from

.ln

[alpine zinc]

All notes, page 1/116:

#7104 void by motan 🇺🇦#0405
#7637 neofetch by SpellignError#0001
#7638 nohelp by SpellignError#0001
#7639 no by SpellignError#0001
#7789 .-.. by Nomenklatura#2472
#8407 augh by Bored Videos#0900
#8413 keys by i0b#5004
#8495 downvoted by Bored Videos#0900
#8516 tomato? by thetoastyboio#2925
#8529 keys by killertofu#2434
#8537 yourmom by ambient#1361
#8538 amogus by ambient#1361
#8539 rick by ambient#1361
#8553 wdn by fwuffyboi#1556
#8554 windows by NotApollyon#8780
#8555 no by Fluffy#8467
#8556 nvidia by NotApollyon#8780
#8560 sus by anstandig-kun#8008
#8580 nvidia by NotApollyon#8780
#8585 amog by anstandig-kun#8008

[prisma solar]

.nid 8555

[alpine zinc]

Note **`no`** (`#8555`) by Fluffy#8467

bitches? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/991105271235612692/1008183441424134275/Screenshot_2022-08-13_18-45-34.png

[crimson trench]

Creator, but anyone can use it

[prisma solar]

only if they delete their original message

[crimson trench]

Yeah

[prisma solar]

because qbot always replies

but

#general-log

[crimson trench]

Oh true, but I gotta say it's more work to moderate it

I would honestly move the helpful user role to something more staff-ish, and then make a new helpful user role for community members who are trusted with notes n stuff

[prisma solar]

why?

[crimson trench]

Idk it just makes more sense to me than allowing all members to use notes

[snow horizon]

Are you going to punish the creator of the hyprland note? Just curious.

[prisma solar]

what's that

[crimson trench]

Maybe not much more work to find the person but like okay so

All members having access to notes -> something more to moderate
Trusted members have it -> I can rest assured they wont use it in a bad way (mostly)

[snow horizon]

... hyprland

[alpine zinc]

#16504 📣 Consider this before using it: https://rentry.co/Hyprland-controversy

[snow horizon]

Context

[prisma solar]

this is fine?

what's up with it?

[crimson trench]

Also @prisma solar there's like 116 pages of notes who knows what's in there

It's just rough to expect mods to comb through them and moderate it imo

[prisma solar]

there's a wide range of this kind of stuff across discord servers. plenty of places don't let you upload files or images without a trusted role, for example

[crimson trench]

Especially with our low numbers

[crimson trench]

Sure, but the bot thing is different

[crimson trench]

Also this note is spammed so much and causes a lot of arguments and shit storms

[prisma solar]

IMO ask the users involved

[crimson trench]

If the gaza discussions are banned for flame wars and stuff, why isn't this note too?

Idk

I'm just tired of the hyprland arguments

And spam

[void lotus]

I could definitely live without that hyprland note lol, it rarely leads to productive discussion

[civic cloak]

Good ending: "Okay, I'll switch to Sway"
Bad ending: drama in chat about how they don't care about Vaxry's actions

[snow horizon]

Quick thought, wouldn't that just lead to the link itself being spammed?

[void lotus]

Or defending that category of content, blehhh

[void lotus]

I think the note is easier to remember and call than digging out the link

[crimson trench]

Exactly

[civic cloak]

How desperate do people have to be to be attracted to kids 😭

[prisma solar]

we should ban it then

[void lotus]

And having it as a note sort of officialises spamming it over and over

[snow horizon]

Perhaps automod the link.

[prisma solar]

an Dover
your Britishness is showing

[prisma solar]

we can simply remove the note and ask people to stop

.dn 16504

[alpine zinc]

Note hyprland (#16504) deleted successfully.

[void lotus]

I've been allowing Gaza/Israel discussion for a while now tbh

[void lotus]

Try not to refer to my location in public channels 😅 ik I do it myself sometimes lol

Although admittedly recently there's less of a reason to conceal it

[prisma solar]

your discord username is english_ivy?

[void lotus]

That's an actual species of ivy

[prisma solar]

yes ik that's a plant

[void lotus]

But yeah I should probably change it TBF

[prisma solar]

but also

i figured i wasn't revealing anything new

[void lotus]

I could make it Boston_Ivy to mess w ppl

[void lotus]

Ehhh I went through a while ago and deleted as many refs as I could find lol

[prisma solar]

from England to New England

[void lotus]

But you're fine :3

I'd love to visit New England

I want clam chowder

Idk if I like clams
Idk if I like chowder
But I want clam chowder

[prisma solar]

it's delicious

[crimson trench]

Americans when they take british city/region/whatever names and append new to them

[prisma solar]

New York

[prisma solar]

TBF that was the British for a lot of it

[crimson trench]

Or prepend actually

Uhh I think

[void lotus]

We love colonising we just can't help ourselves

[crimson trench]

Oh oke idk history my bad xD

[void lotus]

New York was originally New Amsterdam iirc

[prisma solar]

why they changed it, i can't say

people just liked it better that way?

[snow horizon]

Northeast and west coast are generally the states I expect to end up joining Canada.

[void lotus]

War

[prisma solar]

(i'm referencing the song "Istanbul Not Constantinople" by They Might Be Giants)

[crimson trench]

Sum41

Linkin park

:3

[void lotus]

No idea

I like Avril Lavigne

[nocturne jasper]

Holy shit we nuked the hyprland note?

Fucking awesome

... hyprland

[prisma solar]

it was played for me in school when i was like 12 years old

[void lotus]

I think you probably could have just done it to be fair

I think we have a lot of discretion in stuff like this

[woeful carbon]

I have permission form mods. The point for notes so that you don't have to copy and paste things over and over. The point is that you just are able to record a note and then recall it with one command. Sadly I don't want to be a part of this conversation.

I will say that it's very poor design to have to make a website or to host a website just to have a card. Users will not click on links to cards. That's why the note system is very good as you can put all the information in one note and then run that in a command.

[fast lantern]

I personally dont see why people would be more willing to write a bot command when asked to, compared to check out a card when asked to, but thats beyond me i guess. also. thanks Anna for the clarification. with that said, i have nothing to add

[lime egret]

Clicking a link is more friction, and leaving the discord application entirely even more friction, the less friction the more likely the user will complete the journey

[gusty mirage]

Well, I opted for another solution. Regarding the notes, you decide about it. I try to use them for manpages and useful info regarding Linux.

[lime egret]

man.archlinux.org
has a lot of man pages...

[gusty mirage]

Yes. But about notes been helping with those for fast reference.

I already opted for a solution regarding the user doing self promotion. Therefore my issue is solved.
But if required, you can discuss the rest of the use of qbot notes

[muted plinth]

if y'all nuked the hyprland note you should probably nuke the sway note as well cus the same argument comes up from that

... sway

[alpine zinc]

#16943 📣 https://dmpwn.info/

[gusty mirage]

how are we supposed to tell people that hyprland/sway is no good then?

[muted plinth]

idk, im against deleting them but i'd rather see the mods be consistent

"it's hard to mod" is kind of a bad reason if you cherry pick examples instead of applying the methodology to every offending thing in that subject

also i think it's kind of silly to ask people to not share information about a bad actor in the dev scene when it's such a popular application too, deleting the note does nothing about the subject coming up, and if you ban discussion about it entirely then that just has averse reactions. not everyone has to care about the sway/hyprland shit but honestly i haven't seen many arguments about it if any

people just say "idc" and people go "wow ok" and then they move on

[peak garnet]

Why is the note even named sway when drew hasn't been a part of sway since 2020 lol

[muted plinth]

i assume it's an old note, idk either way it still causes the same contention of "idc, separate art from artist" or whatever

[peak garnet]

devault report was released in 2024

[muted plinth]

oh idk then

[gusty mirage]

if vaxy left will the controversy still apply?

[peak garnet]

No?

[muted plinth]

i mean he's the sole dev afaik so if he leaves hyprland then hyprland stops happening

[peak garnet]

It's the most popular wayland compositor by stars on GH, sway being the second

[gusty mirage]

point being that if vaxy gave control to someone, the principles still apply

ie if elon is no longer the ceo of tesla, the damage is already done

would you want a tesla if elon left?

[muted plinth]

people would still say "idc if they're a bad person" if it comes up and banning the notes won't fix that imo

[gusty mirage]

let's give them tesla's see how there tune changes quickly

[muted plinth]

lol

[peak garnet]

I'll take a used tesla now for free, I'll save money(20-40K euro) and save resources (water, metals, also less emissions) because I won't need to buy a new new car

[snow horizon]

.delnote 16943

[alpine zinc]

Note sway (#16943) deleted successfully.

[muted plinth]

apparently theres multiple versions of it

... sway

[alpine zinc]

#17339 📣 works, but the dev is a known portable document file

[muted plinth]

... sway

[alpine zinc]

#16942 📣 sway https://dmpwn.info/

[void lotus]

.delnote 16942

[alpine zinc]

Note sway (#16942) deleted successfully.

[void lotus]

... sway

[alpine zinc]

#17339 📣 works, but the dev is a known portable document file

[void lotus]

lol

[muted plinth]

[void lotus]

that messed w my head for a second

[muted plinth]

lol

[void lotus]

.delnote 17339

[alpine zinc]

Note sway (#17339) deleted successfully.

[void lotus]

... sway

[alpine zinc]

#16940 📣 sway https://dmpwn.info/

[void lotus]

fucking hell

.delnote 16940

[alpine zinc]

Note sway (#16940) deleted successfully.

[void lotus]

... sway

ha!

[crimson trench]

how many of those are there wtf

[void lotus]

ppl rly need to touch grass

[crimson trench]

real

[muted plinth]

[void lotus]

multiple notes for the same damn thing

... hyprland

[gusty mirage]

I made dwl :v)

[void lotus]

... i3

[alpine zinc]

#16680 📣 good :3

[void lotus]

what

the note?

[gusty mirage]

no

the wm

[void lotus]

oh

you are Devin J. Pohly?

[gusty mirage]

source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7l0Rq9E8MY