Controversial Topics have no place here | A vote / Discussion

[ruby nymph]

Besides I think far more often even in cases where "Nazi" feels appropriate, "Fascism" is more than adequate without the hyper specific loaded cluster fuck of Nazism, and most of the time, if you are atleast using it correctly, there are a lot of people who unironically agree with facism if you explain it to them using its definition or policies as opposed to the word. With Nazism that gives them plenty of room for plausible deniability

[blazing island]

i mean i get the point about keepingn politics to controversial, but it sounds like you're going a little overboard into censorship

[cyan delta]

The book politics of genocide I feel lays it out well. But regardless, yes, if someone is actively advocating for eradication of minorities that would be a viable term to use, issue is, if someone is doing that on this server, the first thing you type should be whatever command is in your power to remove them

Because they are a cancer

[glad belfry]

Fair enough, would also actually be hard to set up a failproof filter aswell

[lethal thorn]

If someone gets banned without any reaction they're gonna be a lot more dissuaded from continuing

[cyan delta]

Our goal isn't to show off that nutjobs exist, it's to show off that we as a community of people passionate about the positive effects of free and openly available information exist

[blazing island]

okay, i think i understand, it's more effective to use a bulletproof term like fascism rather than to give them room to wiggle out of it and deny it with the term nazi, because they've already figured out circumvention for that label

[cyan delta]

That means suppressing nutjobs and posting about all the cool things we as a community are doing

[ruby nymph]

That's why even in controversy, I typically opt for using fascism instead of nazism

[exotic tartan]

Tbf Nazis are fascist, and the defining characteristics of both are negligible.

[ruby nymph]

Words are functional and I believe the Nazi label has caveats that culls it's functionality

[blazing island]

yeah but i can understand the argument that they've gotten good at wiggling around the term nazi and most people believe their propaganda of the softening of the word

[lethal thorn]

"nazi? I'm not part of the german political party" 🤦

[exotic tartan]

Scootiemyer all words are made up. Most fascists align with Nazis

[cyan delta]

Nazism I feel has a special emphasis on racial supremacy that is not inherently present in fascism, which is simply a single ruler government, but that's semantics, there isn't much difference these days.

[blazing island]

no, it is present in fascism

[exotic tartan]

It literally is just semantics. And most fascists are absolutely white supremecists.

[blazing island]

they haven't put in the leg work to build up a counter argument for the term fascism though from what i've seen

also fascism isn't a singule ruler government, that's a dictatorship and while fascism uses dictatorship, it's far more a complex idea than one ruler

[ruby nymph]

I agree that all words are made up, my whole point is we need to insure our words have the intended effect and doesn't give them room to wiggle.

As @lethal thorn pointed out they'll say shit like this and to spectators it's effective, and causes them to side with them.

We have to be careful when webbing in associations to things they can easily just dismiss and say "yea the Nazis were bad" and then make you look like you are reaching, instead of tackling things directly like, do you think abolishing the seperation of powers and usurping total control is a good thing? Because it's still possible to wiggle around in but it's so much harder.

[cyan delta]

Supremacy certainly is a characteristic, but it's not defining. Fascism came about as a means of ensuring consistent government action in times of war during the Roman republic. Romans were cultural supremacist, but they were a multi-racial empire that had some level of tolerance for cultural difference, albeit miniscule. Nazism has special emphasis on intolerance. But again, in the modern day you are right that it's a pointless difference to point out because they are just catch cry terms

[blazing island]

yeah

[ruby nymph]

Nazism may work well as a exonym, when discussing amongst people who already hold the same framework as you, but when you have discussions with people who don't have the same framework, you risk losing them

[blazing island]

like i think academically it's a discussion you can have but practically they are essentially the same thing, they aren't even really different flavors of the same thing, they're basically just literally the same now

[cyan delta]

Practically speaking, it's not relevant to foss and people trying to bring it up here outside of idk, being a history nerd or talking about their paradox mega campaign should be supressed

[blazing island]

yeah, thank you for explaining it i think i understand your argument about it now

[last narwhal]

M.Skeptic received a thank you cookie!

[exotic tartan]

Don’t fall for Skeptics Jedi mind tricks 😏

[blazing island]

wait does the bot do that on replies? i thought other people were sneaking in after me with thank you's lol

[winged shell]

though i do agree with the server needing some kind of change or overhaul with the moderation
the original reason i took a nearly year long break from this server is because people were calling me slurs and i told the mods to stop them and they didnt do shit cuz they didnt want to "control peoples voices" or whatnot

[ruby nymph]

It's the same reason I wont even use the word homophobia for example if I'm taking directly to a homophobe, that word isn't gonna mean anything to them, it only makes sense to use with people who already have a fleshed out concept of it, so like I may point out that homophobia is rife in the middle east when discussing with a westerner who already agreed homophobia is bad, but when discussing it with those communities I'd resort to the layers below and ask what the issue is with homosexuality, and instead build up to that from more primitive common building blocks

[blazing island]

😬 oof yikes, thats uh... glad i know about that now

[ruby nymph]

---

I'm not saying you HAVE to play nice with them, but the langauge we use is going to highly depend on the audience and their familiarity and internal models of these things.

I think in some instances, when rallying up people who already agree, it may be more valid to use more charged language

[winged shell]

it was quite a bit ago and the discord automod was quite new at the time so im not sure they knew about it, even though instead of moderating slurs and spam they decided to ban all tenor links for some reason and theres not even a weird "im against the system!" reason for it it was just banned

[ruby nymph]

Gifs are worth 1000 slurs

[blazing island]

lmao (frick im using up my one message to say lmao instead of giving a thought out response to anything)

[exotic tartan]

Quotes by Skeptic: a Memoir

[ruby nymph]

Esp if you pronounce it gif instead of gif

Dang the sentence structure actually makes it so people might swap how they pronounce it mentally

[sonic kraken]

The automod has been active for quite a while. It's just that bugs can happen.

[inland void]

i will stand by my pronunciation of gif as "jif" and nothing can stop that.

also you dont call a giraffe "a guhraffe"

[glad belfry]

The automod should really be through regex honestly, it makes it much easier to set up filters since you can do things like ban (w|o|r|d|s) and their bypasses

[winged shell]

well yeah, im also not exactly sure what happened. though for some reason when i talked about it the consensus was that they werent adding automod at all. which kinda confused me at the time

[ruby nymph]

You know the time responses are so annoying that I think that too could be an effective tool to push people to contro.

If someone being contro out of contro, give them a minute cool down for like 10 mins, or some like progressively increasing amount, so they just go to contro themselves to relieve that finger itch

[runic snow]

gif = jaif

[winged shell]

of course i was also alot stupider back then and probably phrased it wrongly, idk, and the people that said slurs are banned

[blazing island]

i call them neck birds, personally

[ruby nymph]

Jraphics

Do you call a Gui a Jewy?

[glad belfry]

when you greet a dude named Gary do you call him Jerry

[inland void]

no i call it a gui (guhwee)

[exotic tartan]

I call it a G U I. I’ve never said Clee when talking about a CLI

[inland void]

oh i say cly when i talk about CLIs

[ruby nymph]

THEN WHY JIF!?

Maybe we should ban all controversial topics

[blazing island]

idk i pronounce tty as tuh-tooey, idk what y'alls deal is

[inland void]

because it sounds nice to me :)

[exotic tartan]

Say sike 🥲

[glad belfry]

Its Gooey, Tooey, and Cly as in Climb

[blazing island]

no

ok anyway im gonna go to sleep now, y'all are good peeps (pronounced pee-yeps)

[ruby nymph]

Gnite

[woven warren]

What does politically neutral stance mean in this case? In what way do you feel the server is not politically neutral?

I agree that certain parts of the server should focus on technical discussions, those parts being #tech-general , #gaming , #programming , #hardware , #theming-archived #1006743093120352338 , #quick-questions (if you have no access to those last two see #readme-support-access ).

did you report the harassment, and can you link to it here at all?

Do you not think twitter does actively promote and facilitate hate speech when it allows bigotry and then has it's owner promote said hate speech?

you're against the twitter vote and ban? /genq

[ruby nymph]

@wiredrose is that vote or thread a result of the controversial channel?

[swift adder]

As soon as I read "LGBT people should celebrate privately" I mentally checked out of that one, however I will bring it to mod attention if it hasn't been already

[woven warren]

Who said that and where? 😮

[swift adder]

I made a ticket, I need to re familiarise myself with mod guidelines before I deal with things myself, it's under 2952

[pure crown]

I disagree

Controversial in an opt in channel you do not have to go in and people should be free to discuss it if that is your thing, no one is forcing you to go and talk about socialism or whatever

[pure crown]

If you wanna bury your head in the sand when it comes to politics be my guest but why should I have to do that for an opt in channel?

[pure crown]

This isn't even a server exclusively about computers and Linux it's about the community and that goes beyond computers and the like

[haughty sonnet]

I did want to let people in here know that earlier, I made a message on #controversial-archive message talking about creating a "sponsored server". After discussions with mods and HUs close with the sub-community in this channel, I don't think it's fair to nuke the channel outright. I do believe that the channel needs to be radically reformed for the purposes of easing moderation and preventing dogpiling, bad faith trolls, overall making the experience better for all that want a safe space to discuss important issues not within the other main channels.

We have had ideas from breaking the channel into smaller components, to making it a forum channel instead, to outright sponsoring a different server.

Regardless of what happens, it's clear from my perspective, that this channel cannot continue to exist in its current form, even if we had more mods get involved to tackle the load. It has become its own sub-community.

[exotic tartan]

A daughter server >:3 I like it

[blazing island]

cute

[haughty sonnet]

The person who made this thread in question left, so I am taking it over. Even then, the regulars of this channel can probably see that it needs at least something done to make it a better experience.

[pure crown]

I don't really see this to be the case very often from my pov

[pure crown]

I think it's fine for the most part

[blazing island]

i think if they're committed to dismantling it as it exists right now, creating a sub server is the best option because it'll kill our discussion to split it into smaller channels, and actually imo it'd make moderation harder

[haughty sonnet]

I am not a fan of splitting it into smaller channels. I think the forum strategy is the best way to keep the channel in the server. As it stands, I'm simply near afraid to moderate this one section of the server, and I have been by far one of the most active mods lately in the community.

I don't think it's fair to load the stress onto brand new mods who don't have nearly as much free time as I do right now.

[blazing island]

yeah i understand

[pure crown]

They did it in :3 central and I don't like it personally

[blazing island]

imo forums are kind of a bad feature in discord for nonspecific topics lol

[pure crown]

It makes it harder to just post something spontaneously that you find interesting

[haughty sonnet]

:3 central honestly shouldn't be a model to be followed in a hypothetical "Arch After Dark" (the working name) situation.

[blazing island]

and if there's a sub server we can have other discussion people don't want here too!

[haughty sonnet]

I am not a fan of things done on it, and the #lgbtq regulars that made it could be served better.

[blazing island]

i personally think it kinda sucks to limit political discussion in the main server, but given the options it's actually kind of a win win

also i like the name too

[exotic tartan]

I think the server rules from this server are great and should still apply

[exotic tartan]

Same

[blazing island]

same

[haughty sonnet]

https://discord.gg/crpzdXJNVP if you want to step into it early (this is just one of several options being considered atm)

[pure crown]

If the problem is not enough moderation in controversial and no one else wants to do it I'd be happy to

[blazing island]

hell yea ground floor

[swift adder]

What is a forum but a collection of smaller conversations or "channels"

I may even dare say "threads"

[haughty sonnet]

A forum would make sense because you can have contained discussions around a topic which is a better format for discussing politics anyway.

I'm old school and still subscribe to the reddit/forum idea.

[exotic tartan]

The issue with forum is that it’s structured like the support channels, frustrating to navigate and not as quick.

[blazing island]

its a little less spontaneous and would be a shift

[swift adder]

I've also offered to do it so like, it'd be you and me so far, I'd support your ascension to mod

[blazing island]

also i think we'd end up back at the same problem with a forum, people complainign politics are still on the server

[pure crown]

I dislike that

[blazing island]

it doesn't really do much other than fragment it and make it more difficult for us to engage with it imo

[swift adder]

Hard agree, I hate this

[pure crown]

I've got experience with modding, I was next in line for ownership of one server with like 10k members and am currently a mod for a server with 25k members

[swift adder]

It also sucks for end users who already have to switch tabs at least 3 times to open a ticket, grab and post a message ID, grab and post a userID and provide any other context, multiple threads is going to make that infinitely more irritating

You talk about how hard it is to moderate but it sucks for regulars reporting stuff too

[haughty sonnet]

I would definitely join the AAD server then

it's a serious proposal that might have legs regardless of the outcome.

[swift adder]

They won't be happy til it's all gone if I'm being real, and in my opinion it's a thinly veiled stepping stone to getting rid of "LGBT propaganda"

[blazing island]

yeah i agree, thats always how that goes, but if aristocat and the rest of the mods really want to delet ethe controversial channel, getting our own server in return is a nice compromise

[swift adder]

In the other thread they went so quickly from "ban hate" to "stop the LGBT ideology", it was like one sentence apart from one another

[blazing island]

"arch should be about arch etc, no lgbt no politics etc"

[swift adder]

If you want bland milquetoast discussion free of identity that's up to you but I think there's other Linux servers that can cater to that already, saves you setting up a whole new server

[blazing island]

yeah honestly if politics gets banned here im probably not going to talk here much anymore

[near pecan]

This is my problem right here. If you want political discussion, why are you on a Linux server? Go to a political server for that.

[pure crown]

Yeah to me this is very alt right playbook stuff

[swift adder]

Very much so.

[blazing island]

see this is my problem, they're trying to push us out when we make statements about "if you ban politics, worse people are going to want to ban lgbt"

[exotic tartan]

This, look at every area of the internet that this has happened so far, including Twitter. This isn’t a problem with controversial, or politics, this is how right wing extremist groups terrorize and infiltrate other groups and destabilize them. They see a pride flag or leftist people and seek to eliminate them. I think this new server compromise is not only a great compromise but will also further prove that this is the case. When controversial is gone and politics isn’t discussed, they will move their goal post and just start attacking anyone that is visibly not right wing extremist and this is an opportunity to prove that is their goal.

[near pecan]

Like no offense @haughty sonnet but the day you implement poltiical channels in Debian, I'd leave the server. I have places for politics that aren't Linux

[blazing island]

its disingenuous

[swift adder]

First they came for #controversial-archive , and I did not speak out because I do not like #controversial-archive . Then they came for #lgbtq , and I did not speak out because I do not like #lgbtq ...

[near pecan]

Do you really think a server with an LGBT icon is going to ban LGBT discussion? You're just throwing goal posts. I really don't understand this take.

[swift adder]

Exactly, all this is are smaller stepping stones to broader fascism. Said stepping stones often seem innocuous, sensible or are well-received.

[exotic tartan]

“Left wing fascists” is the craziest straw man I’ve ever seen and leads me to believe Rachel has been acting in bad faith this entire time.

[cyan delta]

Limux

I didn't mean to press send then

[blazing island]

people are going to complain and try to make it happen and cause more drama because you gave them an inch, and they'll want to take a mile. also what the fuck is that poll

[near pecan]

Nobody is advocating for getting rid of LGBT, ya'll crazy

[swift adder]

You understand that within the very thread we're this was discussed they were suggesting to stop LGBT ideology along with everything else?

[swift adder]

Yes, they were lol

[blazing island]

yes they are

[exotic tartan]

Do not gaslight us

[swift adder]

Gotta get on my bus

[near pecan]

Okay, but are they going to be taken seriously? No. Do you really think someone like Aristocat or Anna or Gravitos or anyone would ban LGBT just because alt-right neckbeards came in here demanding it?

Nobody in serious standing is advocating for it.

[exotic tartan]

It won’t be due to demands, it’ll be for safety

[blazing island]

i do not know the mods, they seem like cool people, but when push comes to shove and a trashed fucking server from raids, and severed new blood because invites have to be disabled permanently, they win

[near pecan]

If anything, you're letting them win because it's obvious to me that mods are getting tired of this whole debate. You are inevitably getting the people who are protecting you forced off from stress.

[blazing island]

removing politics gives fascists more room to cause harm than literally any alternative that protects lgbt people

[swift adder]

Well I am a mod and I am offering to moderate

[blazing island]

they aren't tho, they aren't deleting controversial, if anything aristocat wants to literally give us more room to discuss politics, from making a forum to a whole new server for us

[quaint jacinth]

This is really disingenuous and I'm looking at you real funny right now

[blazing island]

yeah

[haughty sonnet]

I'm sorry, but I gotta side with Rachel on this. Everyone in here saying "they're coming for #lgbtq next" is spreading unjustified panic. I can tell you right now nobody is having a discussion in staff about removing the lgbt channels or doing anything against lgbt rights.

This is partly why this thread itself has turned into a shitshow.

[swift adder]

No one in staff... That seems to be where the conversation among members is going

[blazing island]

yeah like aristocat you can't say you haven't noticed all the people lumping lgbt into politics

[haughty sonnet]

I would personally leave the server over #lgbtq being nuked ngl

[blazing island]

i trust you to want to do the right thing, but it also involves steering the community, and theres an attempt by bad actors to steer the community for you

[haughty sonnet]

I also think that we will have this debate again in the future when our newer staff DOES get overwhelmed over moderating #controversial-archive in its current form. I am already overwhelmed by it.

Ivy can hit me up in three months time.

[swift adder]

I mean ideally everyone would pull their weight, but that's another discussion

[blazing island]

yeah i can understand not being able to handle things (almost) singlehandedly

[swift adder]

You already know we're twinning on that one

[grand harness]

"wHy dOnT yOu JUsT ReCrUIT mOre MoDERaTorS!11!11!" /s

[swift adder]

I don't see what is really resolved with breaking things into forums or channels regardless, I'm still going to have to moderate it, I think it's a bad faith argument to say I'll be overwhelmed as a brand new mod when I'm bound to be overwhelmed at first regardless of what happens

[quaint jacinth]

I'll bring up something I said earlier, but took down bc I wanted to read the top of the thread. Personally I agree with people saying a linux community server should have politics in it. I think it should be more politically left than it is now. But I also don't think a politics channel in a server of 20K ppl where anyone is free to join is what making a space political should look like. It should look more like having a clear set of political values and making sure the people here live and uphold those values. It should look more like a community. I have never been to the political channel. In my limited experience I feel like those channels are usually people writing manifestos or slugging it out, not constructive conflict. Feels to me like a lot of moderator work for no reward.

[swift adder]

I do have some prior experience, a lot of it funnily enough is dealing with political extremes

But that's going back a decade

[exotic tartan]

Decade

[swift adder]

Can you explain what you mean by political values?

As in, what sort of values would you be expecting to see?

[quaint jacinth]

Expecting or wanting?

[swift adder]

Both, I guess

[blazing island]

i mean we were literally talking about egg recipes in there earlier, it's nice there

[swift adder]

I have to get off the bus now and hand some paperwork in, tag me in the reply please

[exotic tartan]

No

[blazing island]

also yeah i have a lot of prior experience moderationg and dealing with political extreme, but i won't offer my help cus most people probably wouldn't want an aggressive person being a mod

[exotic tartan]

Yeah, it tends to ruin discourse when ya ban everyone that disagrees 😅😅😅

[swift adder]

Yeah respectfully I think you are in a better spot as a regular member

[blazing island]

lmao

[quaint jacinth]

I'm used to those channels being mostly bigotry and a few people arguing against it.

[near pecan]

i don't know why I'm bothering to even get involved if i'm just going to be attacked. I'm not even a fascist. I'm the exact type of person that would be rounded up in one of Elon Trump's death camps.

[exotic tartan]

BUT that being said I enjoy having you in conversations, you make good arguments and are well spoken

[quaint jacinth]

Those aren't mutually exclusive and where did you get attacked?

[blazing island]

that's because those places don't have good political values, we have a rainbow flag here so i'd expect the general vibe to be pretty left wing

[swift adder]

I'm not implying you're a fascist, just that some of these ideas align with the goals of fascists whether intentional or otherwise

[blazing island]

no one said you were, but aight

[exotic tartan]

You don’t even know what a fascist is, you said left wing fascism like that’s not even a thing 😭 fascism is inherently right wing. Idk why you’re involved in the conversation if your goal is literally just to throw a fork in the spokes, claim centrism and demean leftists while providing security for the right wing people attacking the server.

[near pecan]

she was wishing for someone's death, I saw flora literally promote political violence

[blazing island]

like what is it with everyone thinking us saying "these ideals can cause an upsurge in harm and fascism because fascists will co-opt it" is thinking we're calling them fascists

[ruby nymph]

Yea I find that there is some sense of irony in that this kinda started from people complaining about free speech effectively, to many suggestions of people saying "don't mention LGBT+ stuff at all in main", or wanting remove an entire channel restricting it more

[blazing island]

flora was banned though?

[exotic tartan]

Tf does that have to do with fascism

[blazing island]

flora has nothing to do with this discussion

[near pecan]

they brought my poll up

[blazing island]

when? in this thread? cus they haven't been here, flora's been banned for a couple days

[near pecan]

and for the record, I'm the reason we are having this debate on Twitter. I'm the OP of the twitter thread

[blazing island]

and again, no one in here is calling you a fascist anyway

[exotic tartan]

Me cause their pole was headed with “left wing fascists bad!!! Must protect right wing but taking centrist stance and eliminating political discourse!!!”

[quaint jacinth]

I am not sure. I don't have much experience creating a space like that. But the ones I'm thinking of have clear policies around who the server is meant to center, policies around how conflicts are handled (including that conflict is expected), clear stances against many different forms of bigotry. They're more serious than I'm used to about ableism and anti blackness. I'd also like to see clear stances around ethically wrong tech, like banning the use of or linking to LLMs or generative AIs.

[near pecan]

I'm doing my part to fight elon's fanboys, that's all I will say. I'm engaged in the long fight

[exotic tartan]

Are you otherwise active in this server by chance? Do you have Twitter?

[pure crown]

https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g?t=516

[blazing island]

yeah thank you, this vid sums up the argument really well

[last narwhal]

locked100plus1 received a thank you cookie!

[ruby nymph]

Like I do think there is proabbly a strong political bias and tilt, and there is an issue of new users potentially getting dogpiled and such, but like I'm not really even against people of different political persuasions existing on the server.

I mean I use hyprland and ik alot of people dislike that because of shit with the creators, but I use it cuz it's good software. And I also think that it's likely you'll have plenty of people with differing views who join the server who may be Linux users, but you aren't forced to talk about politics. You can opt in to it.

As for if people are getting banned for literally even slightly disagreeing with communism or "maybe communism isn't the best idea" INSTA BAN than lunduke is caricaturizing, lmfao heck, I shit hard on communism all the time in contro

[blazing island]

also 😭 can we get a shorter slow mode

[haughty sonnet]

If anything, the slow mode needs to be increased.

[pure crown]

this server is stronger than the scenario described but again it's give them an inch and they'll take a mile

[blazing island]

yeah personally i think it's a mistake and kneejerk to an extreme position to try and prevent any sort of controversy and conflict altogether

[ruby nymph]

I think there can be ethical (or more ethical) variations of AI like llama or deepseek, which are open weights so atleast from a privacy and FOSS perspective (although not fully open source wrt the training code, or the training data which would be even more ideal) is pretty good and I'd even say could be very useful for things like creating auto mods that can detect complex language, or searching large documents for things that regex or synonym based algs just can't capture.

[blazing island]

differences in opinion are the bedrock of healthy discussion and education tbh

[ruby nymph]

There is plenty of unethical usage of it, and like yea it's mega cringe when openAI cries about deepseek having "stolen" it's data by training on it when it itself has done a worse form of stealing and profits off it, but I think if used in an open-source way for the benefit of humanity there are useful applications you can use them for

[swift adder]

I feel like we already have a lot of that as regards identity but it's actually a really good idea on the tech side of things

I will bring this up with the mods

[quaint jacinth]

I guess, I do feel this server has policies but I feel they're shallow. Yes LGBTQ is accepted and celebrated here, but I don't feel there's much care. Like around a month ago someone came into the LGBTQ channel looking for advice about running away from home. And th advice they got was awful. Criticism, ppl putting responsibility for their abuser's actions on their shoulders. And then we learn the real problem is they need $. And like I know mad ppl talk in these servers about how they're going to drop several thousand on a new computer. That $ could've gone to the kid. The that situation was such a frustrating failure. Like what did we do to make sure that kid (young adult really) was safe enough to keep coming back? Nothing.

[blazing island]

yeah, that's a culture problem, which needs to be steered by the administration. its awful that situation happened

[pure crown]

I feel like people are on edge and are overreacting to the shitshow that is the twitter thread, the sludge fest in there is clouding their view of what is happening in other channels such as controversial

[ruby nymph]

Because this isn't a purely technical support server. You join for arch, but discussions can wander into different territories, and I'd think Linux is one that lends itself especially to political topics, and political topics is also going to probably be a destination from many topics. You also get familiar with a certain group of people, so it somewhat becomes a community. You can go to a political server but then it doesn't have the same group of people with whom you already have some sort of legacy rapport with on topic discussions, which is more of the point then just "I want to type political words at people regardless of who they are" as much as that does seem to be what political discussions become. But there still are valuable, interesting discussions that happen under the noise of that

[pure crown]

Like I think controversial is civil for the vast majority

[pure crown]

and if its a moderation problem both me and ivy have said we are happy to mod the channel

[swift adder]

From a liability perspective it is perhaps not wise for us to facilitate the transfer of funds from people to minors

[haughty sonnet]

If controversial had a shit ton of mods, this discussion would be moot imo. I just don't want the few new mods we DO have getting as overwhelmed as me.

[swift adder]

Having said that if I were to see that now I would action that myself

[ruby nymph]

^
The conception of things "leaking from controversial" also seems weird to me, because most of this recent controversy isn't from controversial, and controversial topics will still manifest in other areas. Controversial is going to probably have a disproportionate amount because it's where people are sent from other channels to hash out disagreements, so it will likely have a lot of noise that is typically associated with any Internet disagreement

[pure crown]

again I don't even think controversial is that bad

[pure crown]

it's the twitter sludge fest that's the problem and that will be dealt with in a few days

[ruby nymph]

Yea that I can get, having been a mod myself, lmao getting pinged all the time even lead to exhaustion from even wanting to partake in the server

[swift adder]

This shit show is shifting the overton window within our community imho

[haughty sonnet]

It's been incredibly toxic and we have lost legit good people over this too.

It's not just been a banwave of nazi shitheads.

[pure crown]

yes but you're conflating a problem with the twitter sludge fest with an unrelated channel

[swift adder]

Aristocat has been vocal about controversial since before that thread existed to be perfectly honest

[blazing island]

also yeah the twitter thing literally explicitly invited shit people and shit opinions whether that was the intention or not, such is the nature of that discussion

[ruby nymph]

That's true but that's probably by virtue of being a mod, mods are gonna detest the jail channel naturally, but I do think the recent controversy is being falsely over conflated with that channel

[haughty sonnet]

I've been vocal about it because half of the issue is lack of moderation, which we're at least finally attempting to solve as a result of the Twitter shitshow.

[swift adder]

I will discuss this further with you in private conversation but I think we should get a couple more people onboard

[clever sonnet]

When is the mod recruitment?

[pure crown]

I volunteer as tribute

[haughty sonnet]

only HUs can become mods

[ruby nymph]

HUs?

[haughty sonnet]

and HUs are appointed via nomination.

[pure crown]

I know

[blazing island]

helpful users

[clever sonnet]

oh...

[swift adder]

I know I'm fresh blood and I potentially don't have any say in this yet but I would happily nominate @pure crown

[haughty sonnet]

It's honestly telling that some or msot users don't even know the process in how we get mods to begin with. It's not as simple as throwing a form and saying "apply here"

[ruby nymph]

Do you get that designation by helping people on the tehcnical thread?

[swift adder]

I think other mods would too

[clever sonnet]

One would expect more HUs to be willing to help in moderation team

[pure crown]

Ik how it works, twas a satirical comment

[haughty sonnet]

I was made an HU because at the time, Debian Community was not affiliated with the other big Linux servers (the Linux Hub), and we do a lot of cross-modding with ALC, so being an HU was a way to at least collab with Arch until Debian was reinstated into the big leagues.

[swift adder]

In my case I believe it was because I made tickets where appropriate and facilitated good and helpful conversation within the server

I really cannot stress enough the importance of making tickets, it does no good to me for you guys to bring up examples of stuff we haven't actioned after the fact when it was never brought to our attention in the first place

[ruby nymph]

If the requirements are too strict that it makes it difficult to recruit mods, and the main issue that is occuring is the contro channel being under moderated, why not create a new role that is under mod, but has mod powers in contro, and maybe light permissions in other channels like giving them longer times between messages to steer controversial topic discussions outside of contro into contro,

[haughty sonnet]

If you want to talk about reforming how mods are appointed, that honestly is its own meta thread. I don't have the energy to participate in it

[swift adder]

Another great idea for reform

[haughty sonnet]

It's really an ANNA question.

[blazing island]

yea sorry, im not used to ticket systems so i haven't been good at using them, but im trying

[swift adder]

I'll teach you

If anyone else would like guidance on this let me know

[blazing island]

i know how to use them i just haven't known when i should or when things aren't worthy of alerting mods over

[swift adder]

I'll teach you that as well

[clever sonnet]

Damn i should have squished yesterday at 2 am some brain juice and asked her about that... some things could move a little bit faster knowing opinion from the most mighty one

[blazing island]

ok

[woven warren]

apart from me, I made an argument to get rid of the lgbtq+ channel, and it did seem quite popular

there it is

[hard bear]

Somehow I'd expect removing the lgbtq channel to cause a riot

[swift adder]

Yeah he upvoted it himself :^) very popular since his word is absolute

[blazing island]

unironically arch after dark

[ruby nymph]

Can we take a look at some of the examples of the good users we lost, so we can more finely analyze why we lost them and then perhaps shape the moderation or cultural/social expectations around that?

I imagine one is going to be related to the dogpiling and lack of good faith, but we should also try to ensure that people are very well aware potlics is opt in and people don't have to participate if they don't want to.

There are some people who I think get caught in the crossfire out of the fears and of bad faith

[clever sonnet]

Why would we need to highlight only some examples?

[blazing island]

sylvie seems to be the main example, they were a controversial member but they seem well liked, they just said dumb stuff

[ruby nymph]

Also can someone start a meta thread on this? I'm a pleb

[pure crown]

semantics

[ruby nymph]

I mean we can look at all of them but my point was just so that we can get a rough idea empirically

I'd imagine that you could probably glean broad reasons without having to investigate every single one, but like if we have the manpower and willpower for someone who wants to comb through every single case sure

But I was thinking more like people bring up the examples they are concerned about, and we discuss those ones, not that there is some hyper selected biased selection from above

[spice musk]

I think well thought out and well said by OP! I especially agree with the reconsideration of the twitter / x ban and focus on the content shared and not the platform as a whole. I also especially agree with the general context of focusing this server on tech stuff as that is what we are here for at the end of the day!

One question… what / where / how do I vote on this? Is it just the ^ and ⬇️ emojis on the original post? Sorry I am not very discord literate, haha!

[hasty stag]

what exactly does this thread mean?

[blazing island]

#announcements has the vote

[pure crown]

get rid of controversial, wrong thread djinzi

[hasty stag]

Why should we get rid of #controversial-archive ?

[blazing island]

oh, oops

[hasty stag]

It makes a good place to throw people who wanna talk about that kind of stuff :P

[swift adder]

I think for now this is just a conversation, the emoji are just people expressing themselves

[swift adder]

This actually, I misunderstood

[blazing island]

they kinda just wanna restrict political talk in general and controversial is the example of that

also 😭 murf doesn't even have the controversial role

[hasty stag]

"mah freedom of speach" "lets ban speach I don't like"

[blazing island]

yeah it feels like that ngl

[swift adder]

I find it somewhat amusing this conversation is taking place as DEI is being stripped from America

It couldn't be more obvious to me what the subtext is

[pure crown]

yeah not necessarily them but this attitude is being supported by people who want to ban a byzantinly defined politics which really means shit like lgbt rights

[hasty stag]

Also the OP is no longer in the server

[blazing island]

yup

[pure crown]

as it's been said multiple times if you give them an inch by getting rid of controversial they'll take a mile

[hasty stag]

Yeah, "freedom of speech" often gets used in contexts that aren't the government, and often used to say "Let me spread hate using your platform"

[spice musk]

Oh I read the discussion topic as there was another vote here for what the OP mentioned.

[blazing island]

yeah my mistake sorry, the announcement votes is for the twitter ban :s

[pure crown]

"they" being more right wing leaning members of the server, alt right techbros

[blazing island]

they make it hostile to exist in those spaces as marginalized people because they take it over and steer the conversation

[pure crown]

Getting rid of controversial won't be the end of it

[blazing island]

if you have a bar and nazis start drinking there, if you don't kick them out, you have a nazi bar

[hasty stag]

this, I've been in a few server that I've either left or been banned for pointing out the nazis that go this way

[clever sonnet]

Spill red with hammer and sickle and it will turn into commie bar too

[blazing island]

yeah i've seen so many places online go this way over the last couple years and im getting fucking tired of it tbh

[hasty stag]

It's why I like the idea of mastodon so much

[blazing island]

that's the main reason why i found it so important to contribute to this discussion despite being new, it's happening everywhere and most admins/mods aren't capable of deflecting it, and often they're susceptible to it anyway

[hasty stag]

It's much harder for the entire thing to go that way, moderation will work in the smaller spaces and whatnot

[sonic kraken]

OP only started their Twitter account in January 2025 and didn’t even post anything on it.

That and queerphobia kinda gave me the impression it was bad faith.

[inland void]

im kinda terrible at finding subtext, or even just understanding that it's there at all, can you explain what you mean by this please? i genuinely didn't catch anything that seems clear to you

[pure crown]

far right have been energised by Trump and are trying to infilitrate this server to strip it of wokeness

[inland void]

ahhh i see. yeah, well considering that as the subtext, this entire thread definitely seems bad faith
or at least it's existence and purpose

[pure crown]

^

[swift adder]

pretty much as @pure crown said

[lusty roost]

the twitter ban really affected this server due to it being "semi official"

[swift adder]

[stiff perch]

calling it "official" or "unofficial" doesn't actually affect whether or not its either one of those so there is likely still merit to the idea of semi-official or at least a perceived officialness? idk

[blazing island]

officialness with this basically comes down to if it's endorsed by and run by the maintainers of the project, so its very much unofficial from what i understand

[exotic tartan]

I celebrate its unnoficcialness by burning a Bible every time a lunduke fan shows up

Then I become 10% gayer and hang a new trans flag.

[stiff perch]

I love unnoficcial servers

[hasty stag]

what?

[swift adder]

So is this something that you want to see or are you advocating on behalf of others? What sort of things would you be expecting to be expressed privately? Are you also in favour of those people expressing themselves only privately?

[brisk echo]

No idea what this is about again but the constant nonstop arguing between people until one of them gets banned is really annoying when I only ever wanted to talk about Linux

[woven warren]

Just stick to #tech-general would be my advice

[brisk echo]

Still happens from time to time lol, but I guess it is inevitable

I just think containing stuff to their respective channels should be more enforced cause a lot of the time a convo gets out of hand and we get a #controversial-archive worthy message in #tech-general

[woven warren]

Agreed, that’s partly due to moderator resource

[brisk echo]

At least if the person is clearly a homophobe/transphobe it goes away instantly lol

[blazing island]

omg is simpsons the origin of "what an odd thing to say"?? i've been saying that phrase forever and i didn't know

[swift adder]

yeah to an extent it's inevitable, I figured I'd do it here because it's a shit show anyway but you're right that it should have been a ticket really

[white gulch]

I was trying to explain the mentality / views of people who might come from Lunduke / are right wing, as I think a lot of times people who are mostly left wingers don't see the other viewpoints (just like how right wingers don't see the left wing viewpoints). Personally I don't care much for myself, I just wanted to help out Linux communities and don't want to see them burn. So I hope you're able to work out some kind of solution that will satisfy most people. Also about expression, I do think people should be able to express themselves not just privately, but also in public places appropriate for the topic. There could be an e.g. LGBT/progressive/left wing/whatever discord server (I'm sure there is) and there could even be one for Linux Discord server. It's even okay if this server was renamed and became that. Since this is Arch Linux focused Discord, you can expect some people coming here who don't like the focus on other things. Some of them because they simply don't agree with these viewpoints, and a majority just because they came here for Linux discussions. For lots of people Linux is their professional, and in many parts of the world talking about e.g. sexuality (not just LGBT, but also straight/cis) in the workplace is considered highly inappropriate.

I understand you're getting a lot of pressure right now due to the Lunduke video. And some of those people are going to be people you don't want to deal with. But not all.

[blazing island]

"appropriate for the topic"

[white gulch]

I should probably note at this point I'm not American

[rigid lantern]

You can see other viewpoints, understand them and still want to live even if your existance is not something other agree with due to religion or aesthetic taste. Read code of conduct, this is the server where you don't get to disagree with people existing without repressing or conversion therapies.

[blazing island]

LG and B are sexualities, T is gender

[swift adder]

Thanks for clarifying, yes I understand where the right-wingers are coming from but I think you can also perhaps understand that those who are perhaps ignorant but well intentioned don't necessarily understand the long term outcome of things like forcing people to express their identities only privately. In my case they are quite literally asking me not to exist, so you can understand why I take issue with that. I am sorry that such things are not welcome in workplaces in various countries but this is perhaps something we should be challenging rather than pandering to.

[last narwhal]

disposablecord received a thank you cookie!

[brisk echo]

I mean, the server literally has a pride flag all year long. Server couldn't be any more progressive

[blazing island]

also idk if you should be on discord while you're at work, but im gonna stay out of this topic

[rigid lantern]

in many parts of the world talking about e.g. sexuality (not just LGBT, but also straight/cis) in the workplace is considered highly inappropriate
where in the world smalltalk at workplace of men about their wives is highly inappropriate? I could understand "unprofessional" but highly inappropriate?

[brisk echo]

Maybe work culture from another country, dunno

[white gulch]

Well if men at work start talking about their sexual relation with their wifes, that is going to be considered highly inappropriate for work

[swift adder]

Well identity does not necessarily relate to sexual relations

[brisk echo]

Pretty sure nsfw is against the rules

[rigid lantern]

I'm curious to learn about such culture where any mention of private relationship is viewed negatively.
@white gulch I had someone react negatively when I talked about going to the park with my gf only because I slipped and said "gf" not "partner". At this point they viewed it sexually probably. It's my fault?

[swift adder]

it's not but I guess he is coming at it from the angle that talking about being gay means men having sexual relations with men

[exotic tartan]

We’re not at work 😭

[swift adder]

which is does not to be clear

[white gulch]

And I've heard this, but didn't understand. Could you please explain what you mean by asking you to not exist? Did any of Lunduke's supporters send you death threats?

[rigid lantern]

Being straight and talking about straight relationship can be described the same way, it's about sexual relation with person of opposite gender

[swift adder]

So for example I am a trans woman; if you ask me to express my being trans privately then you are in actuality asking me to act as a man publically. This is essentially erasing my identity and forcing me to exist as someone I am not, which is inhumane and emotionally devastating.

[white gulch]

In not so progressive countries.. Eastern Europe / Balcans / slightly into Asia. Maybe in small workplaces it's okay where everybody knows everyone else, but in larger workplaces you don't talk about your own private things with colleges.

[exotic tartan]

He also used screenshots of users in the server which is harassment

[woven warren]

The lunduke videos are an asshole making himself out to be a victim because some now banned teenagers were giving threats they couldn’t back up even if they wanted to.

This server is welcome to all as long as they aren’t trolls and they aren’t bigots.

But there has been an influx of people coming here in bad faith.

The problem with lgbtq+ is that right wing people want to not have lgbtq+ folk freely existing, they don’t want to see it, they don’t want to hear about it, and they find it offensive. That is a them issue. They are oppressive to others for no more than hate.

You can’t talk about nsfw in this server. The lgbtq community has a lived experience that non-members don’t experience.

In this case many are advocating that Elon Musk, who is transphobic, isn’t a problem at all. That he isn’t a Nazi, despite far right actions, spreading far right conspiracy theory and doing a Nazi salute.

[woven warren]

It’s a public server, it isn’t harrassment, it’s shitty and bad faith though

[swift adder]

I disagree, you can be straight and a virgin for example. All being straight really means is that you do not experience attraction toward the same sex.

[rigid lantern]

Oh I know how it is in Eastern Europe. I had to migrate to western country and I will get rid of my old citizenship because the hostility.

[rigid lantern]

Same way you can be gay and not engage in sexual relations. But being gay automatically is viewed as sexual and ostracized because someone thinks its sexual and sexual is inappropriate.

[swift adder]

Yes, I agree.

[white gulch]

Most right wing people don't mind lgbtq+ folks freely existing. They don't want to hear about it though, that's true. Finding it offensive maybe if they are religious, but not all right wing are religious. So if they are religious, they are likely going to have a more extreme take

[swift adder]

Someone thinks that it is sexual but thinking it does not make it so.

[swift adder]

But see a religion does not have greater importance than my fundamental identity.

[rigid lantern]

If they didn't mind us existing they wouldn't try to erase us and paint us as danger to kids and society lol

[woven warren]

Yeah right wing people are really tolerant of lgbtq+ folks /sarcasm

[rigid lantern]

Getting mentions of being gay/trans removed, being shunned if you dare not to hide your identity is not letting someone exist freely. Pls

[swift adder]

If a man says "Hey boss, I can't do overtime tonight, I'm going out for a meal with my husband." is that something they shouldn't have to hear about? Is it okay if the same conversation happens with a man referencing his wife?

[white gulch]

I think both of those should be okay

[swift adder]

We have established what you think (respectfully), I'm wondering if you feel the right-wing feeling that perhaps a man discussing his husband is taboo is something we should pander to?

[rigid lantern]

Then you're very different than the huge majority of conservatives or centrists from eastern europe lol

[white gulch]

he might be looked at weirdly by the boss, because LGBT people are quite rare here (or at least they don't come out maybe due to fear of being looked at weirdly) but he wouldn't be fired or negatively discriminated in any way apart from that

I know in the US it's different because people just commonly dox and swat each other for no reason

[exotic tartan]

It’s not for no reason, these methods are generally used to terrorize people.

[rigid lantern]

You can only claim there's no discrimination because of lack of legal framework for discrimination based on sexuality or gender identity. It doesn't exist in many countries in eastern europe. It doesn't mean it's not happening even if it's not in statistics. Because it's not legally recognized.

[white gulch]

There is a good advice I've heard though and this should be good for both left wing and right wing people

And that is that you don't have to be accepting but you should try to be tolerant

if someone has their own views, you're not going to convince them otherwise

[rigid lantern]

well, then you have to be tolerant of people wanting to live without getting shunned or pushed into the shadow

[white gulch]

so try instead to avoid causing pressure

[rigid lantern]

and dont cause pressure by trying to sexualize their relationship just to mark them as inapropriate

[swift adder]

Paradox of tolerance comes to mind

[hollow hornet]

as a person living in a pretty conservative country, im genuinely so tired of people making being trans and shit "controversial" even online, it's genuinely so exhausting and it's very difficult to escape/ignore

[blazing island]

also to note: the people that were coming in advocating for lgbt discussion to be banned are not an example of tolerance, and despite you wishing for us to respect them, they have no respect for us to just exist

[swift adder]

I'm going to bed. @white gulch I thank you for engaging in civil discussion.

[last narwhal]

disposablecord received a thank you cookie!

[blazing island]

my existence and my identity should not be controversial or political and i shouldn't have to hide it to make bigots comfortable

[rigid lantern]

They are the enablers that abusers need. If there were only abusers who are openly aggressive fight against them would be easier. They need those "centrist", calmer enablers to emphasise that it's okay to not agree with someones existance.

[exotic tartan]

I’m never going to tolerate bigots/nazis/fascists.

[white gulch]

And thanks to you for being tolerant. I do think there is just a very huge misunderstanding between left wing and right wing people and this just makes people more radicalized to separate from each other

[last narwhal]

Ivy <3 received a thank you cookie!

[white gulch]

Yeah, but not all of them are those

[exotic tartan]

That’s just hands down not going to happen. No one is obligated to either, after all the damage to humanity they have caused and continued to cause it is not up for debate, they are not to be tolerated and asking people to tolerate them is asking to be complacent in their violence and oppression.

[blazing island]

no, we understand them pretty well

[rigid lantern]

Rich people benefit from poor people dividing themselves and fighting among each other. As long as the culture war is fanned they will be safe and get richer. Excusing hate and legitimizing "not wanting others to be public about their identity" helps them.

[swift adder]

I don't think there is a misunderstanding to be honest, I think asking people to repress their fundamental identity is simply discriminatory. Assuming you are in a straight relationship I would not ask you to repress that, I see no reason why others should have to do so to appease people who find it 'inappropriate'. What it really is on a base level is bigotry regardless of how one justifies it. But I digress.

[white gulch]

Yes, some people say the whole culture war thing is just a way to distract the American people and turn them against each other

[rigid lantern]

Not only american people. It's like this elsewhere too. Nazis literally did this in 30'. Fight against sexual minorities in Weimar republic was one of the first thing they were doing. It's free to learn history.

[white gulch]

I don't think most right wing people would find talking about gay relationship things inapproriate any more than talking about straight relationships. Again, the ones who do are due to religious beliefs. Talking about having sex, maybe even getting a date at work would be considered inappropriate. Simply saying you got married to any gender would not be.

[rigid lantern]

Try it yourself. Try casually saying you're in same sex relationship and observe reactions.

[white gulch]

Though if any one of you would be okay with talking to Lunduke, I think it could make an interesting discussion. One time he had a guy from a Black Python user group on the show and they clearly disagreed about a lot of things, but the discussion was interesting

He has said multiple times how he would love if left winger people would come on his show and challenge his ideas but nobody wants to talk to him because of his status of being considered a nazi/bigot/bad person

[haughty sonnet]

How does one even get in touch with him?

[exotic tartan]

We’ve seen his videos, and it’s not just the ones about this server. The guy panders to hateful people and uses his platform to play the victim and push people away from using Linux. Talking to him would be a nightmare considering his outlook, language and methods of communication. I’m also fairly certain he was involved with the violent insurrection and treasonous attempt at overthrowing democracy.

[white gulch]

he has an email: https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4619051/lunduke-journal-link-central-tm

[hollow hornet]

sorry im having trouble following, @white gulch could you likee, just summarize your major points please

[white gulch]

The things that came up were 1.) a significant amount of right wing people are against DEI as a political idea and not LGBT/colored skin/etc people simply existing. (You can see this because they can be completely good friends with such people who are right leaning, who do exist) and the ones who do think e.g. being gay is a sin is due to them being religious and you're unfortunately never going to change their opinion 2.) in many countries talking about things like sexuality (regardless of whether it's LGBT or straight), politics, or really anything too personal is considered inappropriate in work places 3.) some people have no problem with controversial topics, they just don't like that these topics are discussed on the server related to Arch Linux, whose code of conduct specifically forbids discussing anything controversial or political

I wanted to explain the viewpoints of right wing people, so you understand it and can treat it well, as it would be sad to see Linux related spaces burn because of (American) political / culture war disagreements

[cyan delta]

Could you use indents please? It's a wall of unending text need some separation for my eyes

[white gulch]

Ah sure next time I'll do that

[cyan delta]

Thank you. God came down from heaven and blessed us with markdown formatting for a reason

[hasty stag]

I can tell you you're 1 is so wrong on so many levels, I know quite a few right wing people, they say they're not hateful twards minorities, (though most are pretty upfront about being anti-trans), but then will act like minorities being in their media is the worst thing to ever happen in said media, and people do change their minds on weather or not being gay is a "sin".
Point 2, that's largely correct, though I don't see how this has any bearing on this server, though this server is heavily lgbtq+ and even if it wasn't we shouldn't do anything to prevent people from talking about it :P
and for point 3, we are not arch linux, we are an unofficial support server, who's owner is lgbtq+ and with a large lgbtq+ population, if this is about the twitter thing, being anti-nazi is pretty apolitical, and if it's not, I don't think anyone wants to be apolitical.

[hasty stag]

this is also not at all true lol, they freak out about it

when something goes poorly and it has lgbtq+ themes or even an lgbtq+ character, you know what they generally like to blame?

[swift adder]

So many people are like "I wasn't right-wing until all these movies pushed me to it!"

Like buddy, if all it took was seeing a few black people to push you to the right then it's obvious you weren't the greatest person to begin with.

[ruby nymph]

The issue is although it might not appear it, the server is kinda diverse in political opinions?

It does have a strong left tilt, but it's not nearly as narrow as Lunduke caricaturized it, where if someone so much as questions if Marxism is the best thing the world they get INSTA BANNED. Im literally a capitalist myself and I've debated AGAINST communism, and bashed and memed on it quite a bit, but can still get along with the self identified communists in the server. So who comes on to represent the server? Because any individual that goes up would probably piss everyone else off from being extremely unrepresentative of the rest of the people.

[woven warren]

a load of right wingers come here and break the rules with prejudice, bad faith arguments, and general trolling, get banned.

Why isn't the server letting us post whatever we want!!!

But yes, if you don't break the rules, you should be fine.

The problem is a lot of right wing folk are prejudice.
Some left wing folk are too.
And obviously not all right leaning people are prejudice.

So this server doesn't ban someone for being right wing or not ban them because they're left wing, but the right can very easily paint a picture to their followers, in bad faith, that they're removed for being right wing, when it's really that they've expressed prejudice.

[ruby nymph]

If this was 2016 I think it would be far easier. I don't even think having right wing opinions makes someone irredeemable, even if I disagree with their policy takes and what not.

I can even be fine with RINO types, but the thing is, at the stage we are at, the Overton window has been stretched beyond recognition, and outright into territory that far exceeds things that are even compatible with our society. Ironically enough, the right wing argument against islam, in which an honest truthful adherence to Islam would be fundementally incompatible with western civilization, is true of Christianity as well, and of what the Republican party has allowed itself to succumb to.

They elected in an insurrectionist who organized a fake slate of electors to forge certificates of ascertainment to coup the government in 2020, and then had his stacked court grant him absolute criminal immunity in Trump v USA 2024, a power that so obviously goes against what the purpose of this country was built on.

And now he continually shits all over the constitution in actual practice whilst merely paying lip service to it, and to patriotism, and to the founding of the nation, all of which his actions stand starkly against.

There may be some good faith people who were sucked into the pipeline via the culture war shit, but like the leftist that are made out to be the enemy hardly actually have any political power and most of what is complained about it hardly much of an infraction and is pretty ironically similar to the scope of things that SJWs and "wokes" complained about, like character colors and such. The "woke" stuff has hardly affected policy to the degree that the far right has, and when someone doesn't come to their senses like even Mike Pence was able to in the face of insurrection, all over culture war shit, then they really are far gone

[ruby nymph]

Yea the issue is as well, in some ironic sense, and I see this often, that there is an expectation of equal outcome a DEI of retaining members or banning them based off political affiliation when one side will disproportionately break the rules. Not that people on the left aren't also breaking them, but when you have raids of bad faith actors as you said mad that they can't say literally anything, who then also leverage it into some sort of persecution complex even though like, lmfao bro it's a fucking server, X as an entire platform and self proclaimed free speech townsquare had been banning links to mastadon and suppressing other links, has been disproportionately boosting certain voices, interfered in elections FAR more than the twitter files during ELONS reign,

[rigid lantern]

It does have a strong left tilt, but it's not nearly as narrow as Lunduke caricaturized it, where if someone so much as questions if Marxism is the best thing the world they get INSTA BANNED. Im literally a capitalist myself and I've debated AGAINST communism
He wouldnt get as many views if he told the truth. People love getting enraged or scared of shit. This is the overblown true crime show equivalent for young men.

[swift adder]

yeee the reality is Skeptic in particular I've had a lot of spicy conversations with due to his willingness to go to bat for capitalism, he 100% would have been banned by now if we only allowed Marxist opinions

oh see you're quoting Skeptic lol that's funny

[ruby nymph]

He also said in the last one if you merely express even the slightest bit questioning of "maybe Marxism isn't the BEST idea" INSTA BAN, but like lmfao we've had plenty of discussion around communism in those server, and even bashed it quite a bit, sure there are aot of commies but his caricature and persecution depiction is wildly over done. I've bashed it and debated against it quite a bit myself and can still remain friendly with the commies here

[ruby nymph]

Rip didn't even read the next message you already said it lmao

[rigid lantern]

I dared to counter some positive claims about China and I'm not banned myself. Woke is no more

[exotic tartan]

Yeah Skeptic is a dirty capitalist and very open about it

[woven warren]

Skeptic is a capitalist?

@swift adder can we ban @ruby nymph asap please!

[swift adder]

I concur with this ban (include me in the Lunduke video)

[ruby nymph]

I need to remove the French flag from my turban so if I get clipped in one of these videos people don't think I'm french

[haughty sonnet]

That's great, we don't care about what they do.

Keep cross-server dramu out.

[exotic tartan]

???? i'm sorry? i didn't mention cross server drama at all, i just wanted to clarify something they got wrong. I don't get it

what part of that is "drama"

[scarlet cedar]

#1336145582128889866 message This looks like the cross server drama to me personally

[hasty stag]

what happened?

[exotic tartan]

@haughty sonnet from what i'm seeing this is just bias and hatred toward atl. I honestly don't know the full story and it would be great if you could clarify it for me, but calling what i did "cross server drama" is just silly. If you want to more this to something more private feel free to dm me

[hasty stag]

atl?

[exotic tartan]

someone misunderstood all thing linux's rules so i corrected their mistake. got deleted because it's "cross server drama"

[exotic tartan]

yeah it's a nonprofit organization, don't wanna say much more than that since it might get deleted

again, i'm a fairy new member there, so i don't know much of the "lore" let's say. i might be missing something

[hasty stag]

I googled it and it seems to be a discord server

[exotic tartan]

it's a lot more than that, take a look at their website :)

[hasty stag]

the first thing on their website is discord

[exotic tartan]

yeah, but it's not the only thing lol

[hasty stag]

it seems to be a discord server with a wiki on the side

And with some missconfigured webpages

It seems only one of their webpages has a robots.txt

[exotic tartan]

we're kinda derailing chat here, that's not what i'm here for lol

[hasty stag]

I'm web dev, I'm gonna look at their poorly made webpage lol

[haughty sonnet]

In any case, what another unaffiliated community does is not relevant to us, particularly one that does not have a stellar reputation among the staff here.

[hasty stag]

the main page seems to mostly pass the lighthouse test

what in the world, the website is using 10% CPU when nothing is happening

A graphing calculator is using less RAM and CPU than their main page

[exotic tartan]

Now you’re infected 😦 /j

[exotic tartan]

Then why did you not delete any other message mentioning atl and only specifically the one that clarified a mistake/misunderstanding of ATL's rules? It's kind of ironic because you're the one bringing cross server drama here, as pointed out by @scarlet cedar

[scarlet cedar]

Don’t you think it’s ironic you delete for cross server drama (there’s no actual rule from what I can tell on it, unless you just make up rules) when you literally created cross server drama. I guess it’s a typical example of power tripping

[hasty stag]

what?

[hasty stag]

Maybe due to all of this?