1984 enforcement of "no memes in #linux"

[fathom dagger]

Some guy got a warn for posting a meme in #tech-general.
In my opinion memes should be allowed as long as they make sense in the context of the conversation and dont just spam the channel.

[crystal spindle]

allow memes in linux post #84728

[fathom dagger]

so yeah that escalated quickly

https://tenor.com/view/1984-skander-big-brother-gif-21303304

[shut tinsel]

Dang it I reacted with the AMD arrow

I can't remove it on mobile

It only shows the first two reactions

This is canonically a reddit upvote

[fathom dagger]

lol

[fathom dagger]

looks pretty wierd like that lol

[shut tinsel]

New emoji just dripped

[humble zenith]

they're allowed when it's an example of something, usually a technical example, which is very very rare, but does happen, you've been in the server for a very long time, and should know this by now.

[lean wharf]

its amd now

[shell fossil]

#tech-general is an on-topic discussion channel. If you want to Shitpost, we have a dedicated channel for shitposting.in #urandom . #tech-general is the single on-topic discussion channel in this server directly related to the topic of the server itself. As a result, we expect at least some level of quality in that channel.

If you don't like not being allowed to post memes in a channel, you can simply hide the channel and not use it.

[fathom dagger]

I do think if its relevant and isn't just spam it should be allowed
Otherwise it just turns into a giant wall of text
Just my opinion btw

[neat patio]

It shouldnt warrant an outright ban lmao

[crystal spindle]

the ban was already handled by Astrid and the user was unbanned

[autumn karma]

People aren't asking for it to be a dedicated shitpostfest, but to let people breathe a lil in regards to memes. Not for hundreds of absurd GIFs to be allowed

[autumn karma]

#tech-general feels like an IRC channel

From a non moderator, user standpoint, I still say that memes should be allowed to an extent

Or a better option, IMO is to rename off topic to general and move it above Linux, and allow memes there

From what I've seen, most Linux servers do this and the chat ends up on the topic of Linux anyway

And you can repurpose Linux as quick questions thereby removing an extra channel

It's a win win.

[humble zenith]

we've tried "general" before, no-one knew if it was off topic or on topic, which is why we have linux and off topic

we've also had people say to rename linux to general, and people say to rename off topic to general, which, kinda shows why it's a confusing idea, everyone has their own ideas over what a general channel is

[fathom dagger]

Maybe just tell mods to relax a bit with enforcement, and have an unspoken rule that memes/gifs are fine as long as they contribute to the conversation

[crystal spindle]

is it really that hard to post memes in #urandom?

[fathom dagger]

No
But posting a meme in urandom is pointless if the convo its relevant to is in #tech-general

Most of the memes in urandom are completely unrelated to any conversation, and in that case that's where they belong

[crystal spindle]

and is it really that hard to just follow the rules and not post memes

[fathom dagger]

The rules are dumb (in my opinion)

https://tenor.com/view/1984-skander-big-brother-gif-21303304

That meme would be totally out of context in #urandom

[humble zenith]

totally fine that you have an opinion, and you express it here, I don't agree with you, I think memes often contribute in a negative way to the conversation

[humble zenith]

yeah talking about 1984 in that context doesn't look at all on topic for #tech-general in the first place

[crystal spindle]

I mean even if you think that memes in Linux should be allowed, the rule is still in place and you still need to follow it

[fathom dagger]

In the convo at the time it made perfect sense
A mod had just taken action against someone for posting a relevant meme, and I was comparing it to 1984

[humble zenith]

nope, if you have a problem with moderation, either #1006744879583461418 or a ticket

... tickets

[fringe ermine]

#12073 📣 To report issues privately to the moderation team, use tickets.

To open a ticket, use the command /tickets open. This will open a private channel where you can talk to the moderators.
You can add other users to the ticket by using the command /tickets adduser in that channel.

When you're done talking to the moderation team, use the command /tickets close in your ticket's channel. This will archive all the messages sent in the ticket and delete the channel.

[humble zenith]

not "lets derail #tech-general because I disagree with a rule"

[fathom dagger]

Well that's why I made this thread

[humble zenith]

which as I said is fine, but you made the example of posting that above meme as being relevant because a moderator took action

[fathom dagger]

Oh cmon its not "derailing" linux

[humble zenith]

making linux into a "lets debate moderator actions" channel is 100% derailing it

either you're passing noisey commentary that doesn't add anything beyond you being noisey, or, you're trying to debate the mods when they moderate the server

if you act with a little maturity by expressing issues you feel do warrant a conversation by communicating clearly in a thread here or a ticket, that's very different

[fathom dagger]

If your just going to insult me I'm not going to talk to you

[humble zenith]

I mean, I'm giving you very clear feedback, posting such gifs is just noisey, as well as off topic, and such behaviour is immature, do what you like, I stand by what I said fully.

[autumn karma]

How long ago was that experiment?

[humble zenith]

I think 2021? @rich mason might know? (Ref: question of when Linux was renamed to general)

[autumn karma]

Isn't that almost 3 years ago now.
I am sure stuff has changed and it's worth another test drive

It reminds me of that one quote I read where they said that just because older ideas failed does not mean we shouldn't try them again

[humble zenith]

But as above, people want to call Linux general, and they want to call Off-topic general, so what is general meant to be? There’s a lack of consensus and it creates confusion, what would be the thing to differentiate it for random users joining?

[autumn karma]

I think we can probably run a poll to decide that?

I think the community has a right to decide this

[humble zenith]

Not sure how that would help a random user joining to know what the community previously decided

[autumn karma]

IMO,
Off topic should be general and allow Linux conversation, as I said Linux can be reuprosed to quick questions

So the user doesn't have to decide, both channels work

[humble zenith]

So no on topic but not support related channel?

[autumn karma]

Yep, a limbo

What do you think?

[humble zenith]

Personally the idea of no on topic Linux channel outside of a support based one seems like a terrible idea to me, and a lot of the suggestions around these topics to me looks like change for the sake of change, with obvious negative repercussions.
I also don’t think that leaving the rules up to the community is a good idea, mainly because everyone has their own opinions and I think it’d likely become a popularity contest rather than a what is a good idea contest.

[autumn karma]

everything will have a negative repercussion, it's not as though the current system is full of positives either.

Do agree with the second one though, however I do think the community has the right to be involved, even if barely.

But hey
We have an idea we think is terrible
So let's, why not put it upto the test?

No better way to evaluate a theoretical model by providing a physical one

[neat patio]

Hate to butt in here but I would like to give my 2 cents , Rename off-topic to general and move it above #tech-general and make support roles available by default which unlocks #quick-questions and #1006743093120352338 to beginners which'll mitigate the influx of new users polluting the other channels

besides a sticky is more than adequate

a whole separate channel is largely unnecessary

[humble zenith]

It’s already been similarly tested, and there’s already a glaring criticism that people frequently suggest another channel would make a good “general” instead

[humble zenith]

Involved yeah, by making suggestions, preferably new suggestions not just repeated old suggestions, which the mod team can then discuss

[humble zenith]

How would you mitigate against help vampyrsm? Would that just go into #info-rules ? /genq

[autumn karma]

The test was 3 years ago, with an extremely smaller sample size.
Of course, there is that issue, however for now we can disregard it and serve off topic as the only one for the part of this experiment

[humble zenith]

The server was still massive back then

[crystal spindle]

maybe lock all channels behind a reaction in #info-rules

[autumn karma]

1st one is what we are discussing
2nd one is a hard no go. Though the system can be improved but that's another whole can of worms

[autumn karma]

Not to the scale it is now though.

[humble zenith]

Pretty sure it was at least 5K ish

[autumn karma]

That's a lot more than I expected to be honest.

But it's at 11k now, closely trailing 12k. More than double

With new members, I say it's worth another shot.

[humble zenith]

I mean yes but it’s still in the thousands

[rich mason]

this is the issue

• if #tech-general is called #general, people treat it as if it's #off-topic, #off-topic goes unused, and there's nowhere to have technical discussions
• if #off-topic is called #general, then #tech-general goes unused, and there's nowhere to have technical discussions

[rich mason]

the server was big Enough at the time (over 2000 members and decently active, iirc)

[autumn karma]

My point is to keep off topic as a non-topic channel
I'd like to bring up Kaizen's server which implements this, the general channel is always technical, rarely ever going out of scope.
#tech-general can still have its use AA being a #quick-questions alternative/replacement

[rich mason]

we intentionally have no "this is where you talk about everything" channel

why do we need a channel specifically called #general

[autumn karma]

because IMO the current terms on #tech-general feels too binding.
And #off-topic is non conventional, most servers use general as a name for it instead.

[rich mason]

kaizen's server is also orders of magnitude smaller than this one, and not on Discovery

[rich mason]

too binding?

"this is a channel for technical discussions"

[autumn karma]

The hard no memes rules.

[autumn karma]

Yet we allow maths, physics and other content to it as well.

[rich mason]

those are technical discussions

[crystal spindle]

my opinion is the issue doesnt lay in the channel layout, but in the issue of people actively ignoring the rules

[rich mason]

this

[crystal spindle]

and people just never reading #info-rules

[rich mason]

the solution is better moderation

and not letting people use zero effort and get away with it

[crystal spindle]

i think info rules is also long overdue for a revamp, at the moment it also doesnt have that much clarity on support rules

and maybe locking channels behind a reaction in #info-rules

[rich mason]

because support rules are in #readme-support-access

[crystal spindle]

info rules doesnt really tell you that its there

[rich mason]

we already have onboarding enabled, it is basically this

[crystal spindle]

that would probably help people get less confused

[rich mason]

and onboarding literally gives you a checklist

saying to go to #readme-support-access and read it

[autumn karma]

Maybe it is, however moderation shouldn't come at a loss of what you can do.

off topic remains dead for most of the day

[crystal spindle]

and afaik when i last joined on an alt the channel list was a bit wonky with stuff like event stuff not being visible by default

[rich mason]

all the alternatives cause other, worse issues

[autumn karma]

aren't those issues theoretical though.

[rich mason]

this is because whoever set those up didn't properly configure them in onboarding, i can fix it

[rich mason]

no, we saw them in practice!

[humble zenith]

I think that’s a discord issue?

[rich mason]

no

[crystal spindle]

moderator election 2 electric boogaloo

[autumn karma]

3 years ago.

[rich mason]

this is i think thanos not being aware of how onboarding interacts with channel visibility

[autumn karma]

The server has new members, and new moderators.
I say a 2 week experiment is worth a shot

[rich mason]

yes, and this server is 5.5 years old

it was already established at the time

[neat patio]

Well the support rules is quite vague and It's not enforced so why impose an extra burden on those seeking help it'll only further encourage them to ask questions on other channels hence if we make it more accessible it'll keep them within the pertinent channels if you know what i mean

[autumn karma]

yes but, 3 years is still old
So many people have gone and new members have come

Why don't we just host a one week experiment.

[neat patio]

Any reason why?

[crystal spindle]

i think a general channel is not needed

and overall not a great idea

[autumn karma]

It satisfies everything,
We can get new data and if it doesn't work out, we can kill every idea that comes knowing it was problematic

[rich mason]

.eval e.server.creation_time.to_i / (365.25 * 24 * 60 * 60)

[fringe ermine]

48.01991089309707

[crystal spindle]

we already have #off-topic for all your off topic needs

[rich mason]

uhh

[humble zenith]

It was enforced when I was a mod, and I warned people for being help vampires, if you see someone not adhering to the support rules in a support area you should definitely open a ticket and let the mod team know- and they should usually warn someone for it

[crystal spindle]

.eval 1+1

[fringe ermine]

nope

[rich mason]

.eval (e.server.creation_time.to_i - Time.now.to_i) / (365.25 * 24 * 60 * 60)

[fringe ermine]

-5.964293830963064

[crystal spindle]

we have existed for -5.9 years

[rich mason]

nearly six years old

[autumn karma]

Server is negative years old 😭

[rich mason]

the server was created -5.9 years from now

[autumn karma]

That's quite a long time

Anna, what's wrong with my experiment idea

Just a one week system

[crystal spindle]

im going to point towards the obvious solution: more mods and hus

[autumn karma]

Where everything changes and we can revert back

[neat patio]

I doubt #tech-general would go unused It'll balance out the casual conversations and the serious ones similarly to #controversial-archive , those who want to have a formal technical conversation could redirect a convo from general to #tech-general as they do with #controversial-archive

[autumn karma]

We obtain new data to go over too.

[rich mason]

as i keep saying, we've tried it several times as the server grew, and the experiment never worked

[rich mason]

then what's wrong with the current #off-topic

[autumn karma]

Several? I was only mentioned one instance.

[rich mason]

i tried pretty much every combination of channel names that's been suggested

[autumn karma]

When was the last time this was done?

if you recall

[rich mason]

we have these channels archived

[neat patio]

You bring up a very good point , the only issue now is to encourage people to take up "non - linux discussion " to #off-topic perhaps removing the countdown could work?

[rich mason]

this is unimportant

"the server had 5000 instead of 10000 people" is not really meaningful

that's not even an order of magnitude

[autumn karma]

You have a larger sample size compared to before.
And maybe, the new members are better compared to the old ones who know how to adhere to rules better

In stuff like humans, it's hard to evaluate a theoretical model.

Anna, please, just one week

Let's see how this goes.

If it goes bad, we won't do one again.

[rich mason]

.eval Math.log10(e.server.member_count) - Math.log10(5000)

[fringe ermine]

0.350092885458106

[rich mason]

yyeah

way less than an order of magnitude

[neat patio]

Thing is the support rules are pretty broad i would say .. and not well defined besides they are pretty universal and not specific to this server alone

It

[rich mason]

the final answer is no

[autumn karma]

no convincing?

[rich mason]

no

[autumn karma]

Well that's alright then, I guess.

I tried my best I suppose.

[neat patio]

It's irrelevant whether they were enforced or not

[rich mason]

yes, our rules generally are this way

[humble zenith]

If you think there are better support rules you could always make a new set you think would work and put them in another #1006744879583461418 thread?

[rich mason]

"just be a decent person" basically

[neat patio]

That could work

[humble zenith]

@rich mason what happened with my suggestions before I banned myself and took a break?

[neat patio]

Yeah I dont mind that my question is why lock that behind a role? :/ unnecessary

[rich mason]

wha

[humble zenith]

Typo

Edited

[rich mason]

which ones

[humble zenith]

I made a new #readme-support-access channel, you wanted to change the FAQ

[rich mason]

because some people don't read the rules and make trivial mistakes

[rich mason]

ohhh

[humble zenith]

It’s probably still on the mod channels?

[rich mason]

probably

@autumn karma we have these archived channels

[humble zenith]

lol, well it’s there if you want to use it, if not delete?

[autumn karma]

99% of servers have a general channel

It really feels like this server went out of its way to be different -- people are used to a specific format

[rich mason]

.eval Class.new { include Discordrb::IDObject; def id = 399813025600765974; }.new.creation_time

uhh

idk lol

[autumn karma]

Actually, now that I think, what was the problem faced with these channels

Except for naming ofc

Was there any other moderation related issue or not

[rich mason]

#1188689028460073011 message

[neat patio]

Perhaps we could reach a compromise and add the support role in the server guide thingy y'know the pop up a user gets upon joining a server? that could help

[humble zenith]

Support got turned into a forums area

[neat patio]

and we'd really appreciate it

[rich mason]

that way, people just click through and no one reads the support rules

again, you are literally given a checklist on join

[humble zenith]

They’re talking about arch-support and memes I think, memes is #urandom

[autumn karma]

Alright then
Weird thing but can we move voice channels further down, below the Other section?

[neat patio]

[autumn karma]

People rarely use voice channels

[rich mason]

• multiple arch-support-X channels were deprecated in favor of threads
• memes was duplicate of #urandom

[autumn karma]

I don't mean as in that

[rich mason]

that's true, they used to be a lot more active

[autumn karma]

Did it increase work on the moderation team?

[autumn karma]

You can make it so that people have to read the rules before they join the server though

It almost works
That's assuming a person isn't smart enough to know a scrollbar exists to just scroll down fully.

[rich mason]

it's already this way

[autumn karma]

Human Nature is this way after all, we. We cant control it

[autumn karma]

Anna what about this

Evidently, this method of obscuring the help channels isn't solving your issue either way

[humble zenith]

Valk onboarding features are better at forced rules reading than discord, but discord onboarding features are better overall, with discord you just tick a random box at the bottom

[autumn karma]

If it 1) didn't increase rule breaking
2) didn't put more overhead on the mod team

Except for the semantics, which can be decided later, it's a good idea

[humble zenith]

I don’t know what you mean by human nature, it’s a very broad concept- which behaviour are you referencing?

[rich mason]

this is what new members see

[autumn karma]

the one of skimming things.

[rich mason]

idk, i carefully read the rules of every server i join

[autumn karma]

Me too

But most people don't do that, from what I've seen.

And the reaction system doesn't work either as the second you see a reaction "oh right that gives me access"

Though I can see most people reading it

[rich mason]

reading the rules is literally a requirement to access any of the channels, if someone doesn't do it and then gets talked to by mods, it's entirely on them

[humble zenith]

A lot of people do read #readme-support-access I think, even skimming is generally fine, as long as you pick up the information, but some people dont read them at all, and they never will, those people should get zero support.

[autumn karma]

fair point.

[rich mason]

it's not our job to protect people from themselves

[neat patio]

I've got an idea why dont we combine support-info and rules then force each and every member to read each and every line? I've seen some servers employ an orwellian method where they'd sneak a little code which would need to be inputted at the end to gain access to the rest of the server and that code was hidden within the rules that way new members would have to read the rules

how does that sound?

I know its harsh but very very effective

[rich mason]

it sounds condescending and awful for anyone who is actually interested in participating

[humble zenith]

That isn’t Orwellian

[rich mason]

and it feels like this alone would filter out people who are slow at reading

[neat patio]

Well if we want EVERYONE to read the rules then that's your only solution

[neat patio]

yup :/

[rich mason]

we don't want to force everyone to read the rules

[neat patio]

Well couldnt we pick the lesser of the two evils? I'd rather have those entering filtered

[humble zenith]

I mean if someone doesn’t read the rules but follows them that’s not inherently an issue, and a lot of people that break rules break them knowingly and purposefully

[neat patio]

Would have less gnome users /s

[rich mason]

if someone hasn't bothered to do so, it's on them if they act against them

[humble zenith]

It goes back to this

[rich mason]

i use gnome...

[neat patio]

satire aaa

[neat patio]

Well that's just ignorant

(dont bring up my past moderation history) LMAO

[rich mason]

it's a really good DE at this point and the reason most people don't like it is because they don't take the time to learn its unique workflow, and jump to modifying it to work like what they've always used, with buggy extensions

[neat patio]

i dont mind it i just love the unwarranted hate it receives

and i just hop on and off the bandwagon sporadically

[rich mason]

.xkcd 1172

[fringe ermine]

xkcd: Workflow

There are probably children out there holding down spacebar to stay warm in the winter! YOUR UPDATE MURDERS CHILDREN.

[rich mason]

KDE users:

[neat patio]

accurate tbh as a kde user

[neat patio]

It's almost psychological torture I'd say it classifies as orwellian

xD

[humble zenith]

Stop thinking it’s Orwellian or the mods will kick you- is as close as you could get to on a discord server 😉

[rich mason]

it's not orwellian, there's no constant surveillance, mental manipulation and conditioning, enforcement of compliant language use to prevent thoughts of dissent

[neat patio]

:p

[neat patio]

fair and no doublethink

doesnt really constitute as orwellian , I guess i just really like the word haha

1984 is such a great book

[humble zenith]

Unless there is and Anna is gaslighting you about all of that, including the gaslighting /j

[crystal spindle]

1984

[rich mason]

what the fuck is gaslighting

[humble zenith]

*gaslamping

[rich mason]

i dont even know what it is, how would i be doing it?

[crystal spindle]

nobody is talking about gaslighting, its all in your head

[rich mason]

obviously yeah

[neat patio]

https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[rich mason]

you're saying meaningless things, it's like you're crazy or something

gaslighting isn't a real thing

obviously

[humble zenith]

I wouldn’t know, I wasn’t allowed to read it, concepts were not compatible with what I was allowed to think as a child /j

[neat patio]

Yeah Anna seems to have a point

I dont really know what you're on about vegan

[crystal spindle]

he has gone insane

[neat patio]

have you guys read animal farm?

[rich mason]

it's very small

[neat patio]

It is but it packs a punch

[rich mason]

i think i read it while bored in middle school

i reread it recently

[neat patio]

It reminded me of lord of the flies

[rich mason]

and it definitely hit different knowing a lot more about the politics of the cold war era

[neat patio]

ever heard of that book?

[rich mason]

i also read that one while bored in middle school

... in after-school detention for misusing the computer systems

[neat patio]

Honestly Middle-school literature isnt as mind-numbing and sleep inducing as i remember them to be

perhaps I've matured to understand and enjoy them

[humble zenith]

It’s an equally famous book

[rich mason]

or it's not forced on you anymore

[neat patio]

this too

[rich mason]

and you're seeing the merit in them

[neat patio]

less influential and more bland :p

[humble zenith]

Yes it’s a far less interesting book

[neat patio]

It's always a treat when information isnt being forcibly shoved down your throats

[neat patio]

wasnt a fan of the morbidity of it

[rich mason]

same

[oblique acorn]

#MemesIn#tech-general

[shut tinsel]

Ironic that discord shows the downvotes before upvotes

7 upvotes and 3 downvotes so far

It's a net positive

[crystal spindle]

it was basically denied lol

[shut tinsel]

[crystal spindle]

so dont expect this to be implemented

[shut tinsel]

#gaming is in discussion

[crystal spindle]

less harsh change, and even that was pretty controversial

[shut tinsel]

[crystal spindle]

but yeah lol im willing to bet my double color roles that this wont be implemented

[shell fossil]

We will not be lightening enforcement on this

[crystal spindle]

based

[lean wharf]

🍞

[oblique acorn]

🍞

[humble zenith]

@oblique acorn why are you bumping this thread? /genq

[oblique acorn]

It wasn't me who started it

I only replied to the 🍞

[humble zenith]

You did however coninue it...

my suggestion is that the thread is closed unless there is anything further of substance to be added, but please stop making it look like there is new information by posting nonsense messages- take that as a general guideline for #1006744879583461418

[neat patio]

https://discord.com/channels/399812551963049995/1189257606368333904 This'll pretty much solve this issue