#the controversial channel

378 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

upbeat lion
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What happened in #controversial-archive that caused it to get disabled?

young schooner
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constant heated arguments over the israel-palestine conflict

upbeat lion
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Oh right

fossil pewter
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Delete the channel, it has no purpose anymore

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There are now incorrect opinions

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RIP to the discourse

bold crystal
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Honestly I feel like it's the wrong move, of course it would be heated, it's the most heated political conflict arguably... ever? I feel the right thing is to keep it going as long as it doesn't get personal/ terror supporting

young schooner
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It has gone to personal and terror supporting several times

fossil pewter
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So ur solution, instead of dealing with those people, is to screw all of us over by locking the channel?

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  • you joke about “1984”ing ppl
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It’s a bad look

upbeat lion
young schooner
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It's not going to be allowed in other channels either

upbeat lion
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Yeah but people will discuss it

young schooner
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The other channels will be moderated more strictly.

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Originally I wanted to just blacklist the topic, but the server owner suggested locking the channel instead. In all honesty, with how much trouble that channel has caused at this point I'd support it's removal entirely if it comes to it.

fossil pewter
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Terrible solution

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I have no qualm w staff but this cannot possibly go well

rocky wasp
narrow dust
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When people discuss a controversial topic in controversial (not allowed)

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Also unban poacher

upbeat lion
fossil pewter
upbeat lion
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IMO it should be brought back, then just ban that topic

lucid crane
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here

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thanos?

young schooner
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yes

lucid crane
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your answers don't match

young schooner
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I think you have a misunderstanding as to what the controversial channel is/was for.

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the community's rules still apply to that channel, which means that debates held there are expected to be held in a respectful manner.

lucid crane
young schooner
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this was consistently not happening. even before the recent incidents easily 50% of the arguments in that channel devolved into insults and namecalling.

lucid crane
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literally

young schooner
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the channel is locked because of people taking it way too far and making arguments that break rule 1a. it would under any other circumstance be handled on the individual lvel, but we currentl do not have the resources to moderate every single debate in the channel, and the only way I, as well as several other moderators, can see the channel working out going forward is with the exact same incidents happening again.

lucid crane
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dunno what else you expect in a controversial channel

young schooner
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yeah that's exactly why it's being disontinued for the time being.

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this is not a decision reached purely as a result of the recent incidents. that was just the last straw.

lucid crane
# young schooner the channel is locked because of people taking it way too far and making argumen...

let me make this clear, a controversial channel is made for people to argue on a certain topic, doesn't matter if the argument goes too far. You are not supposed to lock the channel because some people have different opinion except people who start breaking rules. Talking about rules, the argument rule shouldn't be applicable on the controversial channel and should be on other channels on the server

#

doens't make sense for that rule to be in an argument only channel

young schooner
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the channel was not locked over people having different opinions. the channel was locked because of frequent rulebreaking. and since apparently this wasn't clear to you, the controversial channel is not, nor has ever been, a channel intended to have a different set of ruls from the rest of the community. in fact, the channel description even specifically mention it being for topics considered controversial under the arch linux code of conduct, which is even mentioned in #info-rules as being part of our standard for interactions in this community. just to make this even more clear, I'll post a few excerpts from the code of conduct that have been frequently and blatantly disregarded.

 Respect other users

Arch Linux is a respectful, inclusive community. Anti-social or offensive behaviour will not be tolerated. Simply put, treat others as you would be treated; respect them and their views, even if you disagree with them. When you do find yourself disagreeing; counter the idea or the argument, rather than engage in ad hominem attacks.

 Do not flame 

Flaming, in the most common sense definition, is directing negative, disrespectful, and/or insulting comments toward someone. An equally or more negative response, resulting in a cycling exchange of insults is often the consequence. Flaming fellow members (including the Arch team) will not be tolerated. Avoid personal insults and sarcastic or patronizing language. Discussions can be productive, but quarreling is always destructive.

 Be responsible 

If an interpersonal issue arises, be open-minded to the possibility that your behaviour or intent, actual or perceived, may have contributed to the problem. Arch Linux users are encouraged to cultivate self awareness and remain peaceable toward their peers. Taking responsibility for our actions is often a good first step toward a peaceful reconciliation.
fossil pewter
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You are supposed to be punishing rule breakers not channels

fossil pewter
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We all read the fking rules, open the channel, and we will follow them

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This is senseless craziness

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Why are you accusing us of not knowing the rules exactly

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You’ve already removed the singular problematic person

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the ONE PERSON that has caused this, is gone

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what is the reason for this ?

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Besides your own wants

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I did respect you, but now I don’t. You’ve walked on toes

slate ventureBOT
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singular?? like half of the msgs i found there were just tactless mocking

x86asm_ ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164981079690706974 message) You’ve already removed the singular problematic person

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but also that happens a lot in the whole server so

young schooner
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If we can try to establish a culture of consistently opening tickets when things get out of hand and keeping things respectful then I'll unlock the channel.

slate ventureBOT
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oh really

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tickets every time

young schooner
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However, t this point the majority of the staff team is in support of the channel's removal. If I do restore it, y'all will need to show that the channel can exist without being a constant source of problems.

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I'll also go ahead and instate a topic blacklist if we are going to unlock the channel.

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I'll leave it up to y'all.

upbeat lion
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Just ban talking about Israel/Palestine, that will sort a lot of the problem

young schooner
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that was the main one yes

upbeat lion
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Let's make the channel about discussing how cars are terrible

slate ventureBOT
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what would it be

𝒯𝒽𝒶𝓃ℴ𝓈, 𝒯𝒽ℯ ℛ𝒾𝓏𝓏𝓂𝒶𝓈𝓉ℯ𝓇 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164981079690706974 message) I'll also go ahead and instate a topic blacklist if we are going to unlock the channel.

upbeat lion
young schooner
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that's the main one

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might be a couple others, maybe religion

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anyway

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There's a poll in #controversial-archive . if the results are satisfactory i'll talk with the rest of the staff about reworking the channel a bit and then unlocking it.

fossil pewter
fossil pewter
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I’m offended you are making me sign this because of the actions of others

fossil pewter
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This is yours to decide

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it has been since you’ve locked the channel

fossil pewter
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Why don’t y’all establish a culture of careful moderation instead of letting ppl slide when they take absurd and harmful positions

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Why is the onus on me to police what peers do

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That is what mods are for

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And I’ll be honest you’ve never made a single attempt or response towards my concerns in this aspect

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Entirely neglected

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You said to raise these concerns here and I see nothing done about them

fossil pewter
cyan vale
# fossil pewter This is senseless craziness

I think you are taking it too far. Yes, #controversial-archive is controversial, but this isn't the problem. The problem is that there aren't enough resources for the moderators to moderate on this channel. It's actually a common trend I see now on many servers (banning this specific topic). It's not craziness, and there is no need to talk like that to Thanos. I myself want to talk about the subject, express my opinions, and hear others, specifically when it's so close to home. But I'm more than ok with banning some topics and reopening the channel to ease the moderators work. It's not 1984.

young schooner
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It's either this or we discontinue the channel entirely. Let's not forget that this is a linux community first and foremost. At this point we're questioning why we even need a controversial channel, and unless it stops being a constant source of problems then having it here ends up being more trouble than it's worth, especially in a time when one of our most active staff members is taking a break.

fossil pewter
slate ventureBOT
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it's not semantics; "singular" is way more than a stretch and there have been a lot of bad faith arguments

x86asm_ ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164981079690706974 message) Semantics aside, it’d been dealt with long before this highly unnecessary channel locking

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"it's not 1984" 1984 /j

Deftera :3 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164981079690706974 message) I think you are taking it too far. Yes, #controversial-archive is controversial, but this isn't the …

fossil pewter
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again this 1984 stuff is an attempt to downplay my concerns

narrow dust
kind pastureBOT
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Lance 🎃🇦🇺🌙
should <#399817358585364491> stay locked or should it be removed altogheter?

1⃣ keep it locked
2⃣ delete it
3⃣ archive it

narrow dust
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it should be unlocked

slate ventureBOT
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huh

fossil pewter
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There is already a vote in #controversial-archive

slate ventureBOT
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yes

lucid crane
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delete it

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this truly doesn't make sense

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considering this is for a controversial channel

slate ventureBOT
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@narrow dust why do you not have an option to open it

narrow dust
upbeat lion
upbeat lion
upbeat lion
austere hornet
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arch linux users when they can't talk about racism or genocide anymore

image0.gif
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weird amount of concern trolling going on in here tho trollface

celest owl
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mfw I cant have polarizing discourse in a channel dedicated for polarizing discourse

austere hornet
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mfw mfers are really out here looking for polarizing and riveting discourse in a server dedicated to a linux distribution that used to primarily attract ricers

austere hornet
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I see no issue with this choice, I'm just having trouble trying to figure out why everyone's nads are in a twist.

channel dedicated to respectfully debating sensitive topics as a part of an extension to this community (as such would also be subject to the same set of rules) finally devolves into the opposite one too many times
mod team decides to lockdown the channel to evaluate the benefits and costs of keeping said channel open to the community
everyone has a shocked pikachu face and is outraged

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here's my counterproposal: delete everything except #caturday,this is now a cat posting server bitches

upbeat lion
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Turn the controversial channel into a channel only about trains
They aren't controversial but they are cool

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I would happily give up #controversial-archive for that

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Trains also generally don't generate hate or toxicity

fossil pewter
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You know what I’ll take an infodumping channel over controversial any day

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I am rlly more into what ppl are interested in more than what their opinions are

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I would fill that channel so fast

upbeat lion
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OK but can trains please have their own channel

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#1137115039745196092 has over 1,500 messages

fossil pewter
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Well seems justified in that case

upbeat lion
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#infodumping and #trains as new opt in channels?

wintry spire
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This has to change,
Just putting it out there

image0.jpg
upbeat lion
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How is that controversial?

wintry spire
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It's not but usually the conversation delves into controversial topics after those genuine questions

pliant peak
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what is the harm in having a sandbox controversial. like why moderate it at all, other than obviously bankrupt stuff like CSAM and irrelavant hate speech. Part of the cause for the rise of fascism in america is making people illegal

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cant change hate if you cant discuss it

young schooner
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because anything said there is still being said in the server. we're a partnered server so we cannot have a channel that's basically unmoderated.

fossil pewter
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Most ppl here have agreed to a reasonable standard of not hating

upbeat lion
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Please

fossil pewter
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Hateful stuff is usually the problem

upbeat lion
fossil pewter
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For everyone not mods

young schooner
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Honestly I fully support opening a couple new opt-in channels, but I'm not the one to ask for that so you should open a new thread for it.

pliant peak
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hmm, well maybe a very well defined litmus test would work. A go/no-go for whats allowed. Like can you say this on cable tv (not broadcast tv)

wintry spire
pliant peak
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or even simpler could joe rogan say this and not get his spotify contract canceled - this works because most of the really spicy shit is on the conservative side, so like joe rogan is the line, but alex jones is too far

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they need to do something to split the busiest channels, linux during peak hours is basically a livestream chat where its impossible to keep anything coherent due to influx

wintry spire
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:/

pliant peak
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i like that idea a lot, but discords design sucks for it, i know it exists but it doesnt feel natural in its current implementation

wintry spire
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Threads could work

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Messages and a thread on it

pliant peak
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a concept/project channel would be cool too, where you post your gists and ask questions related to creation of something new. Basically programming for people that can only script and integrate existing solutions

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obviously thread based

upbeat lion
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I propose trains, discuss here: #1165666954271527053

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The #1137115039745196092 thread has over 1,500 messages, I think it deserves its own channel

wintry spire
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@pliant peak #tech-general message

wintry spire
undone rock
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What would the list of topics that can't be talked about include?

young schooner
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israel-palestine conflict, maybe religion at this point

wintry spire
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Idk why Israel Palestine is being a problem
Russia v Ukraine went okay, and arguably we had more traffic then.

undone rock
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The issue I see is that the stuff that's viewed as bad-faith or uncivilised debate or too controversial or bannable etc will become views that the moderators don't agree with

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I mean you're right that the server shouldn't be prioritising a #controversial-archive channel

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Another question also needing to be considered is if you want views you consider unethical / morally contentious to be expressed there (and if that could harm the community), or just want to moderate within discord TOS (+ their conditions for partnered servers).

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Also like moderating the controversial channel is problematic because as I understand it you're essentially telling someone their view is unethical / moral / wrong when they've been debating that for the past hour or so and expect this sort of forced agreement in order to not get banned / muted for longer etc (when ofc the person doesn't actually agree)

young schooner
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it will still be held to the same standard as the rest of the community if it is reopened.

undone rock
young schooner
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arch linux code of conduct is expected to be at least loosely followed, but with the controversial topics section ignored.

wintry spire
young schooner
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but now to hopefully reduce debates getting out of hand, a few topics that do so fairly consistently will be blacklisted.

undone rock
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Although I haven't really read threads of many topics that commonly get out of hand so I can't judge the veracity of the list or anything like that

young schooner
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which it is at this point. vegancookies is taking a break and there are decent periods of time in which no moderators are active in the server.

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even with vegan we still don't have the team we really need

wintry spire
undone rock
wintry spire
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The solution to that is not damage control but increasing moderation

undone rock
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ye but that isn't always possible

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and i'm not sure how interested members of the arch community are in in putting time towards maintaing a #controversial-archive

wintry spire
undone rock
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do we?

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I feel like that's only done for legal reasons

wintry spire
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It's a quite popular channel imo

undone rock
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idk I'd argue lots of the topics are NSFW

wintry spire
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It's also a fallback for moving heated conversations out of Linux off-topic etc.

undone rock
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I mean if you want to post pictures of porn and start analysing it critically, that's not gonna happen right

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But the need for that is debatable...

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You could likely approach most NSFW topics to some degree

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You could also argue that the idea of things being NSFW is a harmful one (of course sometimes it isn't)

wintry spire
undone rock
wintry spire
undone rock
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But to be fair with the blacklist of topics I struggle to see the channel not turning into a circlejerk about communism

undone rock
wintry spire
undone rock
wintry spire
undone rock
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ye

wintry spire
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I'm on a new-used phone and it's glide typing is shit so please don't mind my grammar

undone rock
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Thing is like main topics discussed in #controversial-archive I would say are:

  • Communism
  • LGBT rights
  • Religion
  • Wars
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I'm not sure there's much else

wintry spire
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Yeah, maybe sometimes semantics and philosophy

undone rock
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And like lots of the discussions about wars are beyond stupid (like I think there was someone talking about China-Taiwan relations with no knowledge of the existence of the Chinese Civil War for example)

fossil pewter
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punishing non rule breaking content is noticeable

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just point it out moving forward if need be

wintry spire
undone rock
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Idk it's not really

fossil pewter
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we can keep things civil without censors

undone rock
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I mean it's not entirely my job to tell if content is non-rule breaking but given messages get deleted and the such you can't really tell whether content is rule breaking or not

fossil pewter
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It’s not like this server has freedom of speech

undone rock
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that's not really an argument for anything though

fossil pewter
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it’s not the best venue for controversial topics

undone rock
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idk it is a pretty good venue to be honest

fossil pewter
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why

undone rock
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Moderation is at least semi-good

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The majority of discords I'm on have moderation which is substantially worse

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Where do you think is a better venue for controversial topics/

fossil pewter
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this is not a debate server and nothing is owed to you for protecting speech

undone rock
fossil pewter
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you aren’t owed the right to speak freely here, transphobic opinions and stuff aren’t allowed

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this isn’t something the server has ever practiced

undone rock
fossil pewter
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well that’s what the mods don’t like

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And it’s censored as such

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it’s a partnered server so some topics will need to be axed

pliant peak
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I actually do feel like its overly restrictive in here for a alt-linux community. I've gotten pp slaps for saying things that werent even hateful

fossil pewter
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yea sometimes it’s misguided

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or deliberate who knows

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I am no mind reader

undone rock
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Yes but there are some topics I'd argue that most people wouldn't find controversial, the general person working for discord wouldn't find controversial etc, but mods would

pliant peak
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i think its actually counterproductive too if moderation truly cares about the world being better

fossil pewter
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idk

undone rock
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https://xkcd.com/1357/ i'm not going to lie this is one of my most hated xkcds

xkcd: Free Speech
I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.
fossil pewter
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You don’t have this freedom here, as i said

undone rock
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You don't legally

fossil pewter
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America is not the whole world

undone rock
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I'm not from America

pliant peak
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i dont need this to be a free-speech safe haven, i just think they are a little too tight for a server centered around a hobby enjoyed by mainly goblins

fossil pewter
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didn’t say that

fossil pewter
pliant peak
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like if you arent a little bit of a goblin then why arch linux?

fossil pewter
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that way it’s more objective

undone rock
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Right but many countries believe to some extent in the right to free speech, and they believe in it as a right rather than a law

fossil pewter
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nobody’s talking about countries this is a discord server debate channel

undone rock
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Yes but I'm talking about the general moral view of the countries, as you were talking about America not being the whole world

wintry spire
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Block controversial drakeno
Convert the meta thread on blocking controversial into controversial drakeyes

pliant peak
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Have yall even been contacted by discord agents saying you guys better tone it down or we are gonna sanction the community

fossil pewter
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the fact there was a controversial channel was obviously a mistake

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If there was not one there this would not be happening

pliant peak
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like who is driving the shutdown

wintry spire
undone rock
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What servers / places do you think run better controversial channels?

fossil pewter
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so you’re here for controversial?

wintry spire
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What do you use?

undone rock
fossil pewter
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lmfao ok well I can’t help you with your free speech

pliant peak
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i just like to argue

fossil pewter
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But this is a Linux discord

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it’s supposed to be about Linux for Linux

undone rock
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it doesn't have to be to be honest

fossil pewter
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It’s called arch Linux

pliant peak
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no this is a a support server for the barely-literate new computer user

fossil pewter
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the main channel is called Linux

undone rock
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Right but I wonder how much of the activity is centered in #lgbtq and #controversial-archive

wintry spire
undone rock
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It seems to be more a community

fossil pewter
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since when was this server not centric around Linux but instead free speech / debates

undone rock
undone rock
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Seems to have a role in being a gathering place for the community

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I don't think the server is centric around free speech / debates but it definitely has some adjacent roles like running the off-topic and controversial channels

fossil pewter
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if you want to debate topics that will be censored by mods please do so elsewhere, we don’t want to see the blacklisted things

undone rock
fossil pewter
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Have you read our rules

wintry spire
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Anyways,
What do you think it's more of,
We have less moderation?
Or
The moderation does not want to moderate controversial?

fossil pewter
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Less moderation

undone rock
fossil pewter
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Ppl slide by attacking each other in there

fossil pewter
undone rock
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The suggestion e.g. is to ban things such as "religion" because they tend to be contentious, not because they violate the rules as of now

wintry spire
pliant peak
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or just dont moderate the sandbox

fossil pewter
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Waiting on them to open it and do that

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This way it’s not a sandbox and we have civil discussions

undone rock
fossil pewter
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Because sandbox is when everyone punches each other, we saw that

undone rock
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The case shouldn't be that free-speech is a horrible idea that is heroic to deny and that moderation is decided arbitrarily

wintry spire
pliant peak
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I just want a safe space where I can express my disgust of anime

wintry spire
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No scope of civil discussion then

wintry spire
fossil pewter
slate ventureBOT
#

im not surprised but its kinda frustrating nonetheless

lilith ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164981079690706974 message) I see no issue with this choice, I'm just having trouble trying to figure out why everyone's nads ar…

fossil pewter
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this was obviously going to happen at some point

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ppl could not behave at all

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a couple very specific ppl I’d argue

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maybe a good handful of golden twerps who think they can win a discussion

undone rock
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i just ask where do you suggest people go for talking about controversial topics?

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There might be a fair bit of punching in the #controversial-archive channel but like it's fairly civilised compared to what I'd expect in other servers

fossil pewter
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Another server

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get outta here with that ruckus

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that would be my solution

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but this isn’t complete since it will leak into other channels as we saw recently

pliant peak
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just ban talking about israel

undone rock
wintry spire
pliant peak
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its a played out topic anyways, they can just go to 4chan

undone rock
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I'm not sure I'd say it's a played out topic

pliant peak
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its been like 80 years of the same shit, kinda bored with it

wintry spire
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Bruh

undone rock
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You haven't been alive for those 80 years though

fossil pewter
undone rock
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Like I wouldn't say communism is a played out topic

pliant peak
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like come up with some new content, the show is getting old

wintry spire
pliant peak
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if we burn it all down now, ill have a chance of retiring in a better world, instead were gonna make shit get worse slowly and ill die poor and in squalor

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and i dont wanna go back to work on wednesday

slate ventureBOT
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how much of that was serious

young schooner
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are yall trying to get me to lock the thread too?

fossil pewter
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You might be

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Who knows, you seem to enjoy locking things very much

slate ventureBOT
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thanos now that youre here go unban tgqx for gods sake

pliant peak
wintry spire
fossil pewter
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Atp I don’t believe they’re unlocking that channel lol

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22 to 4 still not a peep

pliant peak
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i mean they are the ones that will have to increase moderation elsewhere, i lose nothing other than a safe place to discuss petty crime

lucid crane
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in a controversial channel, people put different opinions and there are certain times where opinion don't match and two or more people start arguing over it which is fair

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delete the controversial channel if you don't know what it's supposed to be used as

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it's just so dumb for the argument rule to apply on that channel as well

fossil pewter
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users who cant deal with other opinions should be removed from the channel

austere hornet
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I mean there are different ways to handle it, and then there are instances where you feel like you have to break the glass handle in an emergency. I trust the moderation team to do what is right

Their only obligation is to make sure the community adheres to the Arch Linux CoC (which I think a lot of people don't realize or are intentionally ignoring).

fossil pewter
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all topics can be discussed without a flame war

upbeat lion
lucid crane
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or make an opt-in role

upbeat lion
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It is opt in

lucid crane
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I meant

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like a role

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reaction role

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get in at your own risk

upbeat lion
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Isn't that what it is?

lucid crane
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is it?

upbeat lion
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Wait its not

lucid crane
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yeah it isnt

upbeat lion
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I thought it was

young schooner
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it is.

austere hornet
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lmfao

upbeat lion
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I don't have the roles

lucid crane
upbeat lion
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And I can see the channels

young schooner
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wait

lucid crane
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teach them to one who cant handle

upbeat lion
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I did opt in

young schooner
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no it isn't????

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it's suposed to be though

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the fuck

upbeat lion
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It is opt in by adding a member to the channel I believe

austere hornet
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it's up top under server guide

lucid crane
austere hornet
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wat

young schooner
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oh it's done with the new show/hide channels thing now ok

austere hornet
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discord be changing up how to do things

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god bless forums and threads tho

wintry spire
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When are the caveats going to end?
Maybe when the conflict has cooled down?

young schooner
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Ideally yes

celest owl
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it'll surpass the existence of discord/this server

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humans always find a reason to kill eachother

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it is ingrained within the elite few the animosity and hatred for those whom they perceive as inferior that's why we'll never progress as a species

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absolutely pathetic

pliant peak
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This is the least deadly time in history, a smaller percentage are dieing to violence than any other time. Just some religious incels fighting against some very commited gentrification.

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This is russia, the country we thought wed end up going to ww3 with dying in a field