#[Discoussion] Support Spam in not Support Channels

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

shrewd fjord
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I disagree, this will make low effort help request, help vampires etc. more common

vapid wedge
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I agree with half and disagree with half. I think duplicate posting the guidelines in #1006743093120352338 and #readme-support-access would be good so that people are reminded by the rules every time! I disagree with disabling the reaction requirement in #readme-support-access though!

tired pewter
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Leave it as is. People should read

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Also

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... support

mellow wrenBOT
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#9664 📣 if you're having issues with Arch or Linux in general, make a support thread on #1006743093120352338 after reading #readme-support-access

tired pewter
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... welcome

mellow wrenBOT
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#12196 📣 **Welcome to the archlinux Arch Linux Community server. **Begin your journey here by reading
#info-rules and getting roles there. then read
#readme-support-access to get support access. follow the standard litany to make questions when making support and read
#tech-general description. thanks. coolsphere kellycomf

tired pewter
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Works

covert pelican
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It's a barrier to entry, if you can't read it and click on a role, you don't deserve anything. It's like actual skill issue

shrewd fjord
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your proposal isn’t going to solve this issue

covert pelican
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As much as gate keeping for the sake of gate keeping is bad. It's not that. It says it on the introduction page in the wiki. It says something along the line of arch linux is meant for people who operate on a diy basis. If you're not able to read rules and get the support role arch just isn't for you. Arch is not noob and beginner friendly and it's not meant to be.

I personally think that you should be able to install it with all the resources already out there, there's videos and stuff. No way you can't get it installed. It should be required to get access to the #tech-general channel.

That way we'd solve the issue of people wanting tech support in #tech-general and they would have to figure out where to get actual tech support. I feel like that's a good compromise between the way I feel and the way you feel.

covert pelican
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I get what you're saying, honestly the best thing to do is like put ideas down as a group to actually get somewhere

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Instead of arguing points

covert pelican
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For the skilless questions maybe a newbie channel and the general #tech-general is only available to those who can be verified. With like a ticket channel they could like install arch in a vm and publish it on YouTube. Could be reviewed at any time and approved. I feel like we can keep the role thing but making it stand out more with like emojis pointing to it would help because rn it's somewhat hidden. I probably didn't cover everything but this is just an idea it's not fully fleshed out and ready for deployment

pure garnet
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I would rather see this thread as a chance for coming up with better ideas than to ignore a real issue and take the initially proposed solution literally. I may agree, taking away the reaction requirement isn't a solution in and of itself. But the bigger question is, does this lead to something that can solve a problem? Or, does anyone have better ideas for solutions that address the issue from before the role-reaction idea was a good solution? Taking a crude understanding of programming language, how can solution (and problem) be refactored?

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Killing discussion with memes seems to be the discord pastime in absence of any other helpful commentary.

shrewd fjord
covert pelican
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Thing is you gotta think of the admins if it brings more work to them, what's the point?

pure garnet
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The thing about ideas is that they don't necessarily become actualized.

covert pelican
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Exactly

pure garnet
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But it can be expansive enough that some do.

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This is to say that talking about it makes that worry a non-issue in actuality because we're not there yet.

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But point taken and needs to be considered.

covert pelican
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Thing is we need more angles, more brainstorming. If this problem is gonna get fixed we need opinions of more than 3 people. And I don't know about you but I don't know a lot about moderation so we'd need an admin to tell us if said ideas are even plausible. Not saying it's impossible, just saying it's a lot of work, a lot of thinking too. It's gonna take time is what I'm saying.

pure garnet
covert pelican
# pure garnet That's true but I'd think that it's proportionate to how pressing the issue is. ...

I don't think it's pressing since it can operate without the change. It's more about alleviating the workload off the admins and keeping things in the right channels. It just leaves a sour tastes in everybody's mouth. The guy with a problem who gets muted, the admin who has to mute a guy, the guy who didn't want to give support and the guy who wanted to give support. Keep it in the right channels and everyone will be happy.

sonic moss
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It isn't confusing. People just don't read.

tired pewter
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Read issue

fiery isle
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to be clear that person wasn't reading that they need to select a tag when posting, so it wouldn't let them post a thread, but they repeatedly refused to show me a screenshot, had they done it they would've understood through me directing them

brisk pulsar
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maybe we (and mods?) can be more cold towards help in #tech-general
Usually, I <lowkey> try to continue to help people in #tech-general.

I feel "nobody helps me in #1006743093120352338 therefore i'm asking here" have gotten more frequent. so they have read the guidelines and still knowingly spam #tech-general

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btw why don't we have a link for https://bbs.archlinux.org in #readme-support-access ?
maybe a directive to search the official forums for similar issues can help.
and a directive to post your support request there if no one is answering it here* help the migration to #tech-general .

*maybe it's very rare or very advanced.

fiery isle
brisk pulsar
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#tech-general message

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I've gotten more similar stuff. Not gonna search please.

The bbs links are helpful anyways I think.

fiery isle
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The example being given is a terrible one, this user is bad at asking for support, deletes their threads without explaining how they fixed it, doesn't read the wiki, and does get support help, but seems to act entitled to support, @uneven ivy I hope not to see a repeat of the behaviours I've listed as it might end up becoming a moderation issue if this continues. Especially if I see you asking for help in #tech-general .

image.png image.png image.png image.png
uneven ivy
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bro what did i do 😭

fiery isle
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I've explained it clearly, if you have a specific question make a ticket.

uneven ivy
fiery isle
uneven ivy
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idk man kinda seems like a dick move to use me as your example

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in a convo im not even related to in the slightest

fiery isle
brisk pulsar
fiery isle
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Point being they have had help, on underpins occasions, and then acted like that wasn’t the case when they didn’t get help fast enough in the support area, and acted entitled, this person also objected to reading the archwiki when they’re stuck

brisk pulsar
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They left 😢. oh.
I still think mentioning the official support forums (and wikis) will do more good than harm. Especially for sincere users and advanced questions.

Since we/you entertain non arch questions you could also link the wiki/forums for other distributions too.

It's better to spill the poster (whose not getting help) to bbs than #tech-general I think.

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github does this. maybe we can do something similar.

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the hyperlink searches the posts for the title...

covert pelican
vapid wedge
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Never mind. Looks clear enough to me!!

IMG_4466.png
fiery isle
fiery isle
covert pelican
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Yeah I get it

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The problem stems from the ways of yesterday. I personally feel like a pretty achievable barrier to entry would benefit. Arch isn't a small niche community anymore everyone wants to get in. I'm not suggesting something hard just a small test that's very easy to do but would give an idea of whether the individual I a leech or not. I don't know, I hate gatekeeping and everyone should have access to information, but there's already that in the form of forums. So I feel like there could newbie questions thread that everyone can access out of the gate with basic questions like 101 stuff. Again I don't know I'm a normal guy. This is just throwing random ideas at the wall btw.

fiery isle
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Video of people blindfolded installing arch manually in order to get support, too many errors results in a perm ban.

covert pelican
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Yeah let's do that

brisk pulsar
tired pewter
pure garnet
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I just wish there was a way to educate people on concepts that Arch Linux in particular seems to be good at teaching, but it seems like there are some basic preliminary things that aren't said during the installation process that very well could help. For a crude example, by the pacstrap command, you're basically just dumping new system files on a storage device.

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Like a higher level overview what the procedure of installing an operating system means.

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Another example would be dividing the boot process and when certain aspects of the system run. Like bootloaders vs display managers (then graphical DE or WM).

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To be fair, this is in the wiki. That's where I learned it. But you do have to dig for this crucial information that would speed up the process of installing and understanding how it works.

covert pelican
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The thing is, there are videos of installing arch linux. Some are in depth and explain what to do and some just tell you to copy. So that's all readily available on the surface web. It's mostly just people trying to install arch without having to put in effort. My younger brother who isn't bright (there's just a spark missing there) figured it out from a document I wrote with very minimal intervention from me (syntax, didn't want to wait an hour for him to figure it out) took him 4 hours to install. I gave all the info and explained what everything did in the document, but still it's all info you can find out with a Google search. If this kid who failed elementary school 3 times can figure it out there's no excuse. Even if we were to give info they just wouldn't read it.

pure garnet
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This doesn't seem to speak to what I'm talking about though. Yes, there are a ton of video guides but many I've seen (non-exhaustively) don't explain what they're doing in excessive detail and don't provide a high level overview of the process (pre-installation, partitioning, mounting, pacstrap, chroot, boot process, systemd services/units, journalctl/logs, troubleshooting, etc.). I see a lot of assumptions being made about what a user should do (run this command, don't think) and even when briefly described (this command does x), still unexplained why you'd do it and what the significance of it to the overall process of installation is.

Crucially, in your example, you mentioned a document you made (notes?) which likely made sense to you and I wouldn't think your brother is too far off either if you share a common background being brothers. It's not the fact of the time it takes that's a problem it's a problem of understanding and ability to troubleshoot. This requires better communication on the part of learned people.

dire flint
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agreed

the little text seems to be something people just skip over for the reaction

i know i did despite when having joined a particular moderator kept telling me to "read [the channel] again" despite having fully read (to the best of what i had seen)

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literally everytime you direct somebody to that channel

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9 times out of 10 they won't get it

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and somebody has to tell them what the situation is

tired pewter
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People needs more reading comprehension. It gets tiresome that they don't read the rules or #readme-support-access

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And some are just help vampires

dire flint
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The people that are 'help vampires' will be quickly filtered out as people will not want to help them.

tired pewter
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Vegancookies was already clear tho

dire flint
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Given you point people to the appropriate area many times a day

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You might consider what might be improved about it

tired pewter
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So I support his POV

dire flint
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Particularly considering you engage in the same behaviour as vegan had to do with me ("just read it again, you're doing something wrong")

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On standard zoom the font size for the final message is literally less than 8pt.

tired pewter
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We even have qbot notes literally telling what to do, yet people still doesn't read

dire flint
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... you mean where it says go to #readme-support-access

mellow wrenBOT
dire flint
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that one did make me laugh

covert pelican
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The issue was pointed out many time instead of arguing over it pitch in a solution. We know it exists. If you point out a way to fix it, it might stick.

dire flint
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non-response, you pretended i have no suggestion to respond to me, if you want me to ignore non-responses then i suggest you don't do them in the first place