top tier improvements (for ground rb)

[golden owl]

this isnt a serious question at all, and while i have no intent to get to top tier, i do have a question for you guys: other than changing CAS and removing blatant russian bias, what would you guys do to make top tier enjoyable? just curious to see yalls opinions

[errant shuttle]

Just for ground?

[golden owl]

yeah ground rb

i should specify that ig

top tier improvements (for ground rb)

i mean i assume most players who see the marketing are feeling excited for ground rb because it combines both air and ground so

[quick sorrel]

maybe make it so that it doesnt take over 1000 hours to grind one nation...

[golden owl]

fair enough

[quick sorrel]

other than that, i have no other issues

[golden owl]

[copper eagle]

The Russian bias that ain’t there?
And to improve, better spalling and make it more consistent

[dawn oasis]

make stats that are changed by gaijin like they are IRL.
i mainly mean the Leclercs reload, leclerc turret rotation, DM53 Penetration and spall.
also stabilizers being realisctic would be great, because IRL tanks with slow vertical drive speeds cant fully stabilize their gun at high speeds.
also i would like gun accuracy being a thing, since in game highly accurate guns like the 120 L/55 are just as accurate as russian guns, meanwhile IRL a T-80s first hit chance is substantially lower then a Leos

[dawn oasis]

russian bias is pretty undeniably there my guy

[copper eagle]

its really not

[golden owl]

seeing the spalling on some rounds when watching videos was so saddening...

[golden owl]

oh damn i didnt know the stabilizer thing

[dawn oasis]

what do you even mean bro??? therre is no arguing, even the files show its true

[onyx token]

Realistically, there’s four main things for me, 1) revert spaa changes to allow for easier countering of cas/helis, 2) rework or remove drones to have more usefulness and counter-ability, 3) rework map spawns so you have to push to get useful positions and so you can’t get crossmapped within 15 seconds of driving. I have no issue w being able to shoot into spawns, but you shouldn’t be able to do it at long ranges on so many maps. And 4) improve consistency across interactions. I don’t want everything to be realistic, and I understand somethings will be flawed, incorrect, not implemented properly, or cheese/abusable mechanics and that’s ok as long as it’s consistent across interactions. The same shot from the same gun on the same tank in the same spot shouldnt create two vastly different outcomes. Maybe irl something might happen like that but this is a video game. Consistency is key imo.

[dawn oasis]

i agree, especially on the missile part.
like yeah they are more realistic (more or less), but playing missile SPAAs/SAMs feels like torture every time

[onyx token]

Yeah. Personally I don’t care about realism to the point it impacts gameplay. Gameplay should always be the first priority over realism in all but a true simulator

[dawn oasis]

i agree to all points stated

https://tenor.com/view/judge-vintage-judge-perruque-judge-juge-juge-perruque-gif-19001496

[copper eagle]

Spalling is hella inconsistent in all vehicles, and spall shielding exists now, which I disagree should be implemented but it is

[quick sorrel]

drones = shit addition to game

[trail merlin]

Looks at my 10000 + shots into Russian MBTs ammo and such that don't go off

Yet the 2S38 a 11.3+ BR tank at 10.0 1 taps any ammo I use in Abrams or Leo's or anything

With a 57mm APFSDS

Or the 0 spall vs Russian MBTs

Shot a AMBT 120mm KEW with almost 600 pen UFP a T-64A and T-72A multiple times in different games and only kills the driver and doesn't even hurt the other 2

[trail merlin]

If only gaijin fixed Russian tanks to make them like IRL.
Russian space program

[copper eagle]

it doesnt

lol

the only BS part about russian ammo is that charges only have a 15% chance of detting

which is also a thing for challies

its BS but not a russian BS

[trail merlin]

It does

I play all 3 9.7 Leo's a lot

Get 1 tap every damn time by there APFSDS

[golden owl]

honestly agree with all of those 100%

gameplay should never be sacrificed for realism

seeing the new missiles is honestly so sad

i wanted to try and get an ATGM tank like the Khrizantema or M901 but they just seem like a waste for now

[golden owl]

makes sense, i haven't really though about the effect of spall liners. are they really that strong in real life?

[golden owl]

cant argue with that

[golden owl]

in the end, its Russia getting coddled right now

sure other nations were also coddled

leo 2a6 but

this is on another scale

for now russia will have the biggest lineups, the best players out of the big 3, and theyre generally meta because reacting immediately to a BVM in Muh 'Brams is far more difficult than the other way around

and on top of that they have the best AA so their CAS just reigns free

yes leo 2a6s dominated

and then it ended

Russia, im not sure if there is really a forseeable end

[copper eagle]

US is bigger... with better plane CAS

China SPAA is the best

best heli sure

but both mirage 2k and f14b are better than 27K

also BVM is def not the best lol, SEP and 122 are arguably better, i would say theyre equal

[trail merlin]

Doesn't mean much when they have the pantsir

That wasn't needed at all

[copper eagle]

have you played the pantsir?

it got nerfed really hard

[trail merlin]

Just like most SAMs but still doesn't matter much

[copper eagle]

at range its kinda piss useless due to its shitty guidance

[copper eagle]

not TOR lol

[trail merlin]

When it has the best radar of any SAM of like +70 elevation for it and what 20km range

[copper eagle]

mirage 2k right now as well as F14B completely shits on pantsirs

youre not hitting anything beyond 8km

at range it swings way too much

[copper eagle]

it already ended

America currently has the best lineup with CAS and tanks, with sweden having the best pure ground lineup

China is also pretty amazing

Russia pretty much only has the best heli

[trail merlin]

Tank

[copper eagle]

BVM isnt the best at all lol

its fast thats about it

[trail merlin]

Yes it is

The amount of shots those just eat from nothing

[copper eagle]

but type 10 and ztz99a are faster

[trail merlin]

If I can find a clip a leo 2A6 guy shot 1 in the side 7 times

[copper eagle]

thats calling not being able to aim

[trail merlin]

Didn't kill it

[copper eagle]

not the BVM's fault

[trail merlin]

Oh yeah totally not aiming when hitting ammo should blow it sky high

As IRL proved already with Russia T series are just ammo racks

[copper eagle]

BVM sucks in any individual fights as well

[trail merlin]

But WT says nah

Shoot ammo and charges yellow

[copper eagle]

knows charges are unreliable
shoots it anyway

surely its the tanks fault

[trail merlin]

Shoot 2 inches from a crew just yellow

[copper eagle]

Russian bias was and still is copage from bad players not performing 🤷‍♂️

[trail merlin]

It's not just charges ammo doesn't det ever either

For most people

[copper eagle]

thats a lie

[trail merlin]

And when a 120 APFSDS can't even spall in a 64A yeah something is wrong

[copper eagle]

show me a single clip of blacking ammo not deting

[trail merlin]

Thing is it doesn't black it turns yellow or orange

For a direct hit

[copper eagle]

untrue

i have more than enough clips of charges not exploding, i have not gotten a single one where the round doesnt det

top tier is just inherently inconsistent

BS moments exists from NATO tanks as well

people just ignore them for some reason

[golden owl]

hm maybe the meta does change soon

i mean like what other AA could they even add for russia?

that would be viable for WT

S-series tanks just wouldnt work out in the game right?

dunno, we'll see

but i just find it disturbing that Russia has a +70%WR for this long

like it seems it was horrible when the 2a6 happened but then it ended far more quickly right?

[trail merlin]

The tor like people thought since China got it when it's a Russian system but no they get the pantsir

Also 2A6 never has been bad or great

It's just a better gun 2A5 with a weak AF hull and still easy to breach it

[copper eagle]

This man forgot they had to artificially nerf 2a6 reload because it was curbstomping, 2a6 had a high pen round previously exclusive to arietes in a much much better platform

[dawn oasis]

yeah and now its modelled like short Rod APFSDS and doesnt like to spall

[dawn oasis]

that is not true at all, look at winrate, lineup, how gaijin favors them. if you arent capable of seeing that they are the best nation in game then you have either a massive S-Issue or just arent willing to accept facts

[dawn oasis]

sureley its an aim issue if my chell doesnt spall and the ammo charges dont blow up, yeah definitely

[copper eagle]

Then by your metric China is the best

Since they have the highest win rate?

[dawn oasis]

no they dont???

[copper eagle]

On SEP release it had the highest win rate

[dawn oasis]

bc everybody played it

[copper eagle]

Then China is the best top tier then?

[copper eagle]

Spall is a universal issue

[dawn oasis]

china gets matched up with russia very often, + mostly good players have china top tier

[copper eagle]

They fucked it in raining fire, then proceeded to shadow fuck it a couple more times

[dawn oasis]

3BM60 spalls like a handgrenade when it hits nato tanks

[copper eagle]

It doesn’t

[dawn oasis]

it does

more then any other shell

[copper eagle]

No darts truly spall well

[copper eagle]

By what metric? Feelings?

[dawn oasis]

experience????

[copper eagle]

When nato tanks have more armour to create spalling

[dawn oasis]

getting shot??
seeing players play russian tanks????

[copper eagle]

Do you have Russian tanks?

[dawn oasis]

yeah bc a Leos side armor is so thick to create spall

[dawn oasis]

yeah

T-80 U

[copper eagle]

Ah so you don’t have BVM

[dawn oasis]

BVM is just that but better

[copper eagle]

It’s almost like everyone who complains about Russian top tier

Doesn’t have it

[dawn oasis]

i mean the T80 U is russia top tier

BVM is just that but better

[copper eagle]

It’s really not

[dawn oasis]

it is

[copper eagle]

You complained about 3bm60 spall, yet you don’t have anything that shoots it

[dawn oasis]

even the 10.7 T-80 U is so good that i bring it to 11.7 and get nukes with it regularly

[dawn oasis]

still saw ppl use it and talked to russia players???

[copper eagle]

3bm60 and dm53 spalls about the same, on same vehicles

I’ve played enough of each against every other mbt

[dawn oasis]

sure

keep coping ur bad

R-Bias is undenyable

[copper eagle]

Surely it’s my issue when you’re the one calling bias

[dawn oasis]

yes

bc you are denying it

[copper eagle]

Dawg I just don’t think you perform well in nato tanks

When you’ve said nothing regarding both US and sweden having better tank lineups

US and France having better CAS

China having better spaa

Sure RU has one of the best lineups

Could be regarded as the best

[dawn oasis]

+2 KD is most

[copper eagle]

But it’s certainly not bias lol

[dawn oasis]

it is

[copper eagle]

Man thinks 2KD is good

[dawn oasis]

sometimes is have very bad matches when i try to play "experimental"

[copper eagle]

Nuh uh, it is bias, you’re bad for denying it
does not elaborate further

[dawn oasis]

i did tho

[copper eagle]

IPM1 and M1A1 having higher win rates than Russian top tier, surely that’s bias as well?

[dawn oasis]

-less ammo exploding chance
-more vehicles get added even tho not needed
-shell dont spall when they hit russian tanks
-crew sometimes only goes yellow when hit
-Smalllest waekpoints of any top tier tank

-best Helis

-very good SPAA that was also not needed

-very good CAS

-better spall then any other tanks

-advantage due to autoloader not being modeld

[copper eagle]

Man you have no idea what you’re talking about

[dawn oasis]

i do

[copper eagle]

The pantsir is now completely fucked like the rest, it dominated for a single update

[dawn oasis]

still better they every other SPAA except tor

[copper eagle]

Shell spall is about the same, and I know that from duels against same vehicles and different ones

[dawn oasis]

mhm sure

[copper eagle]

Best heli sure

[dawn oasis]

by far

[copper eagle]

That’s the only thing it’s the best at

[dawn oasis]

Tank

SEP and 122BN are very good but not as good

[copper eagle]

122 is better according to a lot of people

Actual good players

SEP I prefer

Smallest weakspot

Man please

It’s laughable how awful current top tier mechanics are and people still think it’s a Russian problem exclusively

And so no actual changes happen

Spall should be improved across the board

[dawn oasis]

nevery heard anybody say that, and i talked to hundreds of sweden and russia players

[dawn oasis]

hull, breech

turretring

[copper eagle]

Yeah, I said actual good players

[dawn oasis]

yeah and my message still stands

[onyx token]

Nah this just isn’t accurate. I just got mine the other day and have been able to hit moving targets at 8+ km by turning off auto lead. There’s only one other spaa in game that can come close to doing the same rn, TOR. Every other spaa is worse than those two imo.

Also, 122plss is absolutely the best tank, but bvm is no slouch and performs as well or better in game than every other top tier mbt I’ve played.

I’ve played Sep, 2a6, ztz99 and t80u and bvm. I haven’t spaded all of them, to be full disclosure, but I’m still taking a bvm over every other top tier tank I’ve played so far. Especially w Abrams UFP’s being lol penned now

[copper eagle]

It can hit targets if it’s flying in a straight line or unaware

Any turning or change in direction at range will cause it to overlead and compensate like crazy

It was amazing pre update but then now it’s worse than the tor

[onyx token]

For whatever reason, maybe it was luck but it was consistent, turning off the auto lead and going to direct fire, the missile had little to no issue with targets that changed direction 1-2 times at ranges at or above 8km

[quick sorrel]

🇸🇪 😍

sweden epic

[dawn oasis]

BVM still more OP

much faster, and at top teir speed is everything, plus its smaller

[golden owl]

oh yeah

[golden owl]

now sure, i dont have top tier. ive been watching a lot of top tier videos though recently and 3BM60 spalls like crazy compared to dm53

i cant argue anything else, i wont argue on the pantsir

thats up to you guys

or the other things

but spall is

its just clearly visible that spalling is far higher on russian shells

and then the ammo thing ive also seen in videos about a million times

[copper eagle]

because its against different targets with different spall liners and armour values

3bm60 experiences the same BS

[golden owl]

right so it didnt spall well against russian tanks...

again im not a top tier player with top tier experience but that just seems interesting

most videos ive seen russia fights nato

and seeing the spall with like abrams or leopards

it looks crazy compared to what ive seen M829A2 or DM53 do

[copper eagle]

spall is a problem with all tanks

[golden owl]

sure they might all be modeled wrong

including russian spall

in the end, russian rounds still spall more

or NATO rounds less

maybe russian spall is what nato spall should be, or maybe nato spall is what russian spall should be

but its undeniable that russian tanks spall more

and the one time that wasnt the case when i was watching videos was when russian tanks fired at finnish russian exports

which probably wouldnt be much of a problem if ammo actually detonated

[copper eagle]

theyre not wrong

gaijin intentionally nerfed spall

again and again

[golden owl]

well either they didnt nerf russian spall that much, or the spall from russia was higher than NATO in the past too but because they both spalled well people didnt really take notice

because the bottom line is russian rounds spall more in comparison to NATO rounds

and if they care about stats so much to balance things, surely they could nerf russian rounds so to reduce the extreme spall, or buff NATO rounds spall

but they haven't

for like 2 years now

ammo detonations not killing NATO tanks makes sense, blowout panels obviously exist, and russian tanks dont have them. again, thats not unfair because thats just a sacrifice you make for a smaller profile and stronger armor.

[copper eagle]

ammo on russian tanks will always det

yes i agree its BS the charges wont

its a 15%

but thats also a thing on challies

[golden owl]

wait do challies not have blowout panels?

[copper eagle]

spall as ive said is a universal issue and blaming it on RU bias is just not true

[golden owl]

i have no clue of what the past tense of richochet is

but again

that richoeted off the mantlet, lost a lot of its penetration power

of course if and when it penetrated it didnt have much energy to do much spall

[copper eagle]

stuff like this is rare as fuck, so its not something that people can play around

its probably just negative bias

[golden owl]

meaning bias against nato, not for russia?

[golden owl]

idk what negative bias is

[copper eagle]

do you know what negative bias means

[golden owl]

no thats why i added a question mark

and i subsequently said i had no clue

[copper eagle]

it means people focused on instances on where they got cucked by gaijin

[golden owl]

that wasnt meant to be a rhetorical question if it came off like that

[copper eagle]

but not on the moment they clicked a BVM and it just died

[golden owl]

yes, this will happen

nobody in their right mind will say russian apfsds will always oneshot

no matter what

nobody's saying exceptions do not exist

we're saying its in general

on average better

[copper eagle]

which its not

[golden owl]

sure, a lot of people can do that

but again, on the topic of russian bias

[copper eagle]

it doesnt exist

[golden owl]

they have way more things to spawn into

[copper eagle]

lol

US has more

[golden owl]

pantsirs

[golden owl]

vehicles sure

but how good is the pantsir vs adats

how good is the sprut vs the hstvl or striker

[copper eagle]

sprut is dogshit compared to HSTVL dawg

pantsir is better against air yes

[golden owl]

dude

[copper eagle]

adats performs better against tanks

[golden owl]

wouldnt the khrizantema beat that?

[copper eagle]

tunguska when pantsir was added was nothing more than a glorified gepard

it was horrible

[golden owl]

yeah because they nerfed it to make the pantsir look better

[copper eagle]

no, extremely niche and situational

[copper eagle]

...no

[golden owl]

fair enough

[copper eagle]

it was nerfed by the SACLOS nerf

[golden owl]

?

ah

[copper eagle]

the gamewide SACLOS nerf made it borderline useless

even before it was a mediocre/subpar SAM

pantsir made sense, and now its fairly balanced

[golden owl]

so you're saying that gamewide many AAs became unusable

[copper eagle]

yes

[golden owl]

except for like

yknow

the russian Pantsir

[copper eagle]

VT1 became unsable

lol no

[golden owl]

yeah i saw those test drive vids

[copper eagle]

it was nerfed as well

TOR was barely touched

so chinese bias?

[golden owl]

maybe, but what was the point of adding that and not the TOR

[copper eagle]

fuck if i know lol

[golden owl]

i wont argue you on that

you're right on that topic

[copper eagle]

so you only saw vids? and not played the vehicles?

[golden owl]

but it just seems interesting that for russia they would add a better AA than the TOR, when they couldve just added the damn TOR

[copper eagle]

pantsir before the recent update was insane

[golden owl]

bro look at the title and description of this post

[copper eagle]

now its kinda piss

[golden owl]

ok well not the title

[copper eagle]

the 2nd best sure

[golden owl]

title doesnt say anything

[copper eagle]

but all SAM performs horribly against CAS

except TOR

[golden owl]

maybe the TOR is better, but overall

[golden owl]

yeah seeing those just felt painful

[copper eagle]

F14B curbstomps pantsirs lol

so does mirage 2k

harrier gr7 now as well

[golden owl]

i cannot disagree or agree with you on that

i havent seen gameplay related to those

so i wont comment on that, ill leave that to the others who may see this threat

thread*

lmao

however from the things i do see

i see a 70%+ WR for russia with a fantastic lineup, currently some of the best performing tanks due to the shitty mechanics that gaijin has for top tier that seems to intentionally give a soft buff to russian tanks, and i see russian AA killing CAS left and right, and even if they dont kill planes, they push them far enough away, and then i see russian CAS allowed to dominate the battlefield. and then Chinese WR also hella high with having minor nation players, way more experienced, plus usually russian teams to support them. just interesting.

yes maybe the US has more abrams to put in their lineups

but the variety and still good effectiveness that each vehicle in a russian lineup offers

and russian MBTs are just meta with their armor

reaction times become higher when countering russian tanks vs nato tanks

there has to be a reason that all the best players are playing russian tanks, right? if nato tanks were better, im sure theyd go to play those

but they interestingly dont

[copper eagle]

more good players play the 122

[golden owl]

good players wasnt the only thing i mentioned

[copper eagle]

a lot of players play RU to play other stuff

like ka52

[golden owl]

im not denying the plss is prob better

the plss seems strong

and then

what else does sweden have to support against the massive onslaughts of russian tanks

[golden owl]

absolutely

but theres also probably a hell of a lot of players playing russia just because its meta

[copper eagle]

another 122 and a 2a6

[golden owl]

does the other 122 have the same armor as the plss?

cant remembet

remember*

but the 2a6 is well, we can see how thats going with germany

again the spall thing comes up there too

[copper eagle]

yes

[golden owl]

ok so we have 2 mvts

mbts*

[copper eagle]

2a6 on itself is fine

[golden owl]

so bvm and t72

[copper eagle]

122 is better than both

[golden owl]

but those arent the only two things

sprut

khrizantema

and then also the pantsir

[copper eagle]

if you want to argue lineup size

US is far far more stacked

[golden owl]

i told you before

[copper eagle]

idk why you think its russian bias

[golden owl]

its not just the lineup size

[copper eagle]

then why are you arguing about that against SWE?

[golden owl]

i told you that yes the US has more top tiers

[copper eagle]

more competent top tiers

[golden owl]

because the 122 might be slightly improved, but it doesnt have the size to support it, and while the US has the size to support it, its not as good as russian mbts

[copper eagle]

they are

[golden owl]

and plus like most of the US at top tier is just abrams

[copper eagle]

idk why you think it isnt

[golden owl]

you have the HSTVL which is inconsistent

[copper eagle]

yeah. abrams are good

[golden owl]

you have the Striker which is pretty good ig

and ADATS, which i mean

sure ig

[golden owl]

but russian mbts are better

[copper eagle]

so purely lineup, US is better

theyre not

lol

[golden owl]

?

[copper eagle]

BVM is about equal to SEP

[golden owl]

no?

[copper eagle]

1a2 is better than both t72b3 and t80u

[golden owl]

we can literally see why people play russian tanks in the videos you send

[copper eagle]

the 2 10.7s are insane, and deserves to be uptiered

[golden owl]

you easily can aim for nato weakspots quickly, you cant do the same with russians as fast

[copper eagle]

and ive said its inconsistent and not to be played around

you can

dawg

[golden owl]

im not saying NATO cant do the same against russia

[copper eagle]

this is literally making excuses for inability to aim

[golden owl]

we're now arguing why the BVM is better than the abrams

[copper eagle]

its not

its about equal

[golden owl]

except for the SEP the BVM has better sights, sufficient firepower, way way way better armor, lower profile, no NATO hump, still fantastic forward speed (yes reverse speed is ass, NATO tanks are better at that, but they cant reverse if russian spall gets to their crew first)

im not saying that russian mbts are universally better

yes abrams has better reload, blowout panels, in general probably better mobility, stronger penning round

but in the end, if the two encounter each other, in terms of reaction times its easier to counter NATO tanks than russian tanks, and even when NATO tanks counter first, the spall is unreliable

[copper eagle]

both spall are unreliable

please

[golden owl]

russian spall less so

they can both be unreliable

one can be less unreliable

[copper eagle]

do you have experience with either

just a question

SEP will beat a BVM in a 1v1 situation almost every single time

[golden owl]

absolutely not, however i can literally see through gameplay. you were just arguing "feelings", should i go out and grind and play them instead to get the "feel" of playing them?

[golden owl]

thats just straight up not the case

in the heat of battle theres so much to process

and when you suddenly see a BVM and you have to aim, its much harder than being a BVM and seeing an abrams pop up and being able to shoot basically anywhere except the turret cheeks and front front plate

[copper eagle]

then why the fuck are you so adamant about it

[golden owl]

because this is something that doesnt require the "feels", as you said before

[copper eagle]

SEP will beat equally skilled BVM player 9/10 times

do you know why?

[golden owl]

i see, so SEP is better

cool

lets say that it is

maybe it is

ok

so sep kills the bvm

[copper eagle]

im asking you do you know why

[golden owl]

bvm respawns as b3 and say kills the sep

[copper eagle]

why it does better in individual situations

[golden owl]

im not sure actually, why?

im trying to be as candid as possible

[copper eagle]

youre not

[golden owl]

what?

thats not even something you can argue

whether or not im being honest

[copper eagle]

you came in with a pre established prejudice in mind

[golden owl]

with literal data and other players experience to back it up

[copper eagle]

because m1 has better overall gun control with depression and overall better mobility

BVM can be breached over a slight hill without the ability to fire back

because of its massive forehead

which is a weakspot to both RU and chinese tanks

[golden owl]

sorry if this sounds rude, but why would i deny the stats and also like the majority of the community's experience for one guy who shows clips that are exceptions where the shell ricochets and loses penetration power?

[golden owl]

yeah gun depression is horrible

thats undeniable

but you can work around that

[copper eagle]

this is a weakspot on all russian vehicles

[golden owl]

so wait

thats a weakspot?

how much protection does that have

[copper eagle]

fuck all

[golden owl]

is it just barely penetrable or like really easy to pen

[copper eagle]

i penned it with DM13

[golden owl]

ok

so why the hell did it not kill that crew member

[copper eagle]

because its way above his head

it killed his breach

which is what matters

[golden owl]

thats more than enough to get enough spall anyways

but you didnt

[copper eagle]

its not

but sure

[golden owl]

sure but what if you didnt? at least that crew member would be gone...if a russian shell penetrated

[copper eagle]

you are trying so fucking hard to find evidence for russian bias

where there isnt

[copper eagle]

what are you saying

theres no what if

it is what happened

russian shell wouldve done the same

[golden owl]

im saying that you clearly seem to argue that both are unreliable as if they're equally unreliable, when in fact they are not

[copper eagle]

top tier is inherently unreliable

how hard is it to understand that

[golden owl]

again

i agree

but russian tanks are less unreliable

[copper eagle]

theyre

fucking

not

[golden owl]

those are not mutually exclusive

idk why i said inexclusive lol

but they arent

[copper eagle]

so you with no experience

is so incredibly adamant about a subject you have real experience in

its so easy to cherry pick footage

[golden owl]

so me, whos watched tens of hours of top tier gameplay, who just hasnt played it with "the feels" that you seem to denounce, who relies on statistics and majority player opinion

[copper eagle]

"statistic"

so what a high WR = bias?

so 10.7 US must be so biased then

[golden owl]

and now we go back to the start

again ive said that the 2a6 had hella strong performance apparently, but then it fizzled out after a nerf

what has gaijin done in the past 2 years

[copper eagle]

you came in, with no experience in the matter, however with a adamant prejudice on the matter

[copper eagle]

it didnt

it was meta for 2 years

[golden owl]

i cant even like

man

[copper eagle]

you want to argue that?

[golden owl]

you know what, ill agree with you on that

sure

i dont know anything at all

but i just want to note something

[copper eagle]

because ive had it since release, it was incredibly meta until 122 got m/95

[golden owl]

you've sent in 3 videos as evidence (now lets not mind the fact that those could be statistical anomalies)

and in those 3 videos youve chose

one video had, sure ill accept it, shit spalling against an abrams

[copper eagle]

do you understand how easy it is to cherry pick footage, the same goes to RU tanks man

ive told you the consensus of "RU bias" is negativity bias

[golden owl]

yes...which is why im relying on statistics and overall player opinion

thats why im not sending in clips either of abrams crews disintegrating after 3BM60

like you have

because i realize

those are clips from hundreds of hours, thousands of hours

of gameplay

[copper eagle]

surely must be bias then? is it

[golden owl]

but if, when the majority of players believe russia to be consistently dominating, statistics corroborate, and when russia keeps getting new toys unlike germany when they got the leo2a6

i believe theres something wrong

[golden owl]

again, you ignored what i just said

read literally what came just before it

[copper eagle]

russian hasnt man, its just the trend of hating on meta vehicles

were you there when people coped about getting more leopards

when the leopards are dominating

BVM was added 2 years ago

they havent been getting more new top tiers

was there a bit of bias during t72b3 addition?

maybe

it forced all top tier battles into mixed battles

but right now calling it russian bias is a major stretch

when other countries does better

RU is still meta

but its not bias

meta changes

[golden owl]

and the 2 spruts and the pantsir?

[copper eagle]

spruts arent good

calling them top tier vehicles is a stretch

pantisr was good for an update

then nerfed

wheres your "years of domination and yet new toys"

[golden owl]

alright heres where it seems me, and like a bunch of creators that i watch, differ from your opinion

[copper eagle]

and you care about their opinions why?

they have no more valid takes than you or me

a lot of creators are actually really really clueless

[golden owl]

from what i can see currently, a lot of players seem to not like the 2nd sprut but recommend the 1st one

so ill concede on 2 spruts and say 1

and in the end, gaijin did nerf the leopard 2a6 right?

[copper eagle]

because 9.3 has better matchmaker

[copper eagle]

and reverted it

[golden owl]

interesting

didn't know that

when did they revert it

[copper eagle]

the french were happy about the 2a6 nerf lol

[golden owl]

lol

[copper eagle]

the leclerc suddenly became meta

[copper eagle]

ages ago

they artificially nerfed its reload

then reverted it

[golden owl]

was it before the addition of the BVM/

BVM?*

if it was after then

something to talk about

[copper eagle]

before

[golden owl]

hm interesting

alright then

ill concede on that too

but still

nvm

what i was going to say is stupid lol

wait

so the 2a6 was added in new power

and it was meta for 2 years?

[copper eagle]

they should use old calculator ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[copper eagle]

yes

[golden owl]

lmaooo

[copper eagle]

until 122 got m/95

because before 122 and 2a6 was a tradeoff

[golden owl]

so that means it was meta until late 2022

[copper eagle]

of pen vs armour

[golden owl]

the leo 2a6

[copper eagle]

approximately, i forgot when 122 got m/95

[golden owl]

yeah seeing the earlier vids of the 122

[golden owl]

well in early 2022 people were already complaining about russia dominating

[copper eagle]

they always do

[golden owl]

russia was meta even in late 2021 early 2022 at least

[copper eagle]

multiple vehicles can be in meta at the same time

like now

BVM SEP and 122 are meta

[golden owl]

yeah

[copper eagle]

WZ1001 to an extent

[golden owl]

but vehicles and nations being meta is different

[copper eagle]

currently sweden US and RU are meta

lol

[golden owl]

sure the SEP is better

and sure the PLSS is better

than any russian mbt

im just saying russia as a whole

[copper eagle]

US as a whole is better

much better CAS

need i remind you F14B was added despite already overwhelming US CAS?

F16A already clapped

[golden owl]

true

wait

[copper eagle]

27K is good yes, but its def worse than 14B

[golden owl]

i shouldve asked this prob way before

[copper eagle]

or mirage 2k for that matter

[golden owl]

but do you think russian bias is like patriotism or it can be for profit too

because if our definitions are different

[copper eagle]

lol what

[golden owl]

i consider bias to be for profit too

[copper eagle]

RU is a heavily played country

[golden owl]

i dont understand the patriotism bias

[copper eagle]

if theres more premiums

[golden owl]

that people cite

that ohh they just like russia more as a country irl

[copper eagle]

more people buy it

[golden owl]

yeah

thats why i think theyre biased

theres more vehicles

[copper eagle]

that has nothing to do with game balance

[golden owl]

more money to be made

by making them better

[golden owl]

it does though

[copper eagle]

overpowered premium exists

that doesnt affect overall top tier balance

[golden owl]

if russian top tier stays the best (with the biggest tech tree i think), then theres most money to be made in russia

[copper eagle]

IS6 T55Am1 are both stupidly broken

[copper eagle]

not how that works...

[golden owl]

if you encourage more people to go down the biggest line

then proportionally the most people whod be willing to pay for top tier premiums or pay to progress are russian mains

[copper eagle]

not how that works

[golden owl]

probably not how it works

just a theory

but proportionally speaking it would benefit gaijin the most

[copper eagle]

german and US have a lot of players

yet german top tier rn

piss garbage

[golden owl]

not saying they dont

im saying that people feel encouraged to maybe switch to russia

[copper eagle]

theyre not

[golden owl]

really?

[copper eagle]

people who swtich to russia thinking theyre gonna perform better

wont perform better

if theyre garbo theyre garbo

[golden owl]

oh no no no

im not saying that the players switched first

im saying that for now, russia as a nation in general (not specific tanks), outperforms other nations. if gaijin continues to make russia better, more people will inevitably flock to russia. if we're proportionally speaking, gaijin makes the most money

[copper eagle]

no

[golden owl]

it didnt start with the players switching and then gaijin deciding to make it better

[copper eagle]

lol

[golden owl]

maybe this is a problem that me and my entire friend group encounter and discuss regularly

and just an us problem

[copper eagle]

the fact that RU has a high WR is literally a skill issue tbh

although US with a stacked lineup performs pretty shit could have another reason

[golden owl]

absolutely

[copper eagle]

its commonly paired with UK, ITA and israel

[golden owl]

im not saying NATO is weak

[copper eagle]

which has absolute garbage vehicles

[golden owl]

im saying that even if gaijin makes russian tanks marginally better

even just marginally

where you could easily counter it with NATO tanks

its still an advantage sweaty players will gladly take

and when sweaty players flock to one nation

[copper eagle]

the sweaty players currently play sweden

....

and the sweaty players already have the trees researched

[golden owl]

i regard sweaty as wanting highest WR and shit

[copper eagle]

that incentivises nothing

[golden owl]

like wanting best stats

[copper eagle]

ok and? i meant good players

[golden owl]

yes, and now imagine you're a new player

you want to get to top tier and have a fun time

you've done some research and learned

[copper eagle]

new players dont go to trees based on top tier meta man

[golden owl]

that the US has like a 40% WR and russia like a 70%, and all the good players who want high WR (not all good players, but id say lots good players want to keep their stats up) play on the commonly winning russia team because they have the most fleshed out top tier overall (not just tanks). and then germany is just shit too and you want to be one of the big 3. which one do you think the new player would choose?

[golden owl]

many many many new players see top tier as what they want

they play WT to get to top tier

and say they start the game playing the US

they dont know anything

and then they join the community

and see the entire opinion regarding russian META

theyre at rank 2

not a whole lot of time wasted

now they have to make the decision

which one do you think they would choose?

[copper eagle]

dawg

what the fuck are you talking about

they go for the trees they are interested in

not for meta

new players dont care nor do they know meta

[golden owl]

you know what

sure

ignore that argument

i might just be, again, a statistical anomaly

i joined the community early and tried to learn as much as possible early on

hearing the grind was bad so i dont waste my time

i found all trees equally interesting and just wanted to have fun

(at the time i wanted to go to top tier)

so yes

disregard that argument

but the point is gaijin still has something to gain by making the most profitable nation more profitable by adding vehicles and making them slightly better

when that river runs dry

theyll make another nation meta

[copper eagle]

that is not how they add vehicles

[golden owl]

and now we come back to the definition argument

im saying they currently have a russian bias by definition, not all the time, but rather for the past like 2 1/2 years.

when they stop making as much money with russia, theyll move on to another

maybe it'll finally be the french's turn and theyll become meta lol

whoops internet went out

and im back

[golden owl]

so they would add vehicles that the community wanted instead of whats more profitable for them?

[copper eagle]

thats not how it works

they add vehicle to balance and based on interest

interest bring people to paly it

and buy prems to grind for it

not meta

people who gives a shit about that enough to pay is a small small minority

[golden owl]

and making the most money off of that small minority is by getting as many of them as possible to play russia

for now

and adding more vehicles to russia encourages them even more

then when that small minority starts paying less and less for russia

theyll switch to another nation

[copper eagle]

thats not how that works man

they dont spend that much effort to please the competitive bunch

they make money by making vehicles that interest people

which also helps balance

[golden owl]

alright, fair enough

i wont continue this discussion much longer (i mean fuck its been what 2 hours?)

ill leave it up to others who see the thread to add their opinions

but its like 4 AM now so 💀

[loud verge]

You fly low

for CAS