TTK

[wet bridge]

The time to kill is getting way too short in my opinion. Predecessor is not about epic fights any more, it’s about who hits the first stun or has the most burst.

Nearly every patchnotes I read that many heros are getting less HP and more damage.

WHY?

[dry ferry]

its litterally just the patch they reworked to many things at once and damage isnt tuned right just wait a patch. ttk is slightly fast at best.

[hearty parcel]

They reworked too many things, one of them being the reduction of the base HP of all the characters of the patch and the reduction of their HP scaling per level

If you reduce the base HP of a character a 10% and the HP grows a 12% then it's normal that the TTK goes down

[rustic oasis]

i really ask myself if omeda even plays their own game...

[dry ferry]

Fights are still lasting a long time regardless so I really dont think this matters thst much

[static patio]

https://youtube.com/shorts/fAJxixEwYRk?is=iE7PyUBDnYmd2tR0

yeah fights lasting a looooong time.

https://youtube.com/shorts/cxHfC6C3GrY?is=2Ul8N_3LFjd_vLMw

2 abilities from a support and dekker is halflife. what is this?! you cant be serious to defend this.

[flat marlin]

First clip is reasonable ttk tbh, The others show why chain ccs are stupid.

[plain coyote]

u are playing arguably the squishiest role/champs it doesnt really help ur case ur supposed to blow up. Dekker also missed her stun and just her laser brought u below half health and she traded properly u couldve died there

i think the health nerfs where unnecessary tho

[zinc prawn]

Dekker a monster right now tbf

[plain coyote]

same i saw that and thought damn nerf her

[zinc prawn]

Her macro and Muriel are top monster supports this patch

[static patio]

yes. I dont mean tanks die out of 1 stun. im talking about these „squishies“.

[dreamy cedar]

Did you ever consider why they are called squishy?

[dreamy cedar]

You realize you just showed us a 46 second fight between you and 4 people there and your complaining about low ttk.....

If you were any harder to kill, that fight would have lasted over a minute. Now think about how that would effect things on a larger scale.

If you think it should take double the time to kill you there then we are almost at 2 minutes for a 1v4, now how do you think that is gonna effect the lenght of matches? We would have hour long matches as the norm hell they already have the potential to last 50 minutes.

If you buff the durability of these damage dealers you have to reduce their damage, if this happens you inadvertantly buff tanks and fighters wich will cause them to dominate matches because now nobody has the damage to deal with them in a appropriate time frame.

[static patio]

you are cherry picking for your arguments. I also showed clips where people die out of 1 ability or 3 shots.

and again: you act like a longer ttk isnt possible because of X and Y. My guy, we already had longer TTK. The game was fun as hell. The game was healthy. The game worked. I played it for months/years with longer TTK.

It went downhill withe the 6th item update.

Pick 9 friends and start a game and dont buy any items. we did that a couple of times and the game was twice as fun. sure, the games last too long because we couldnt kill objectives, obviously. but laning phase and teamfights were so much better.

[dry ferry]

what you are failing to realize is they sped up mobility a ton and now you can side step a lot of stuff in the past we had to have higher TTK because it was literally hard to miss abilities now we can dodge. if you cant dodge at the rank you are at its litterally a skill issue. squishy heroes should die to 2-3 skills thats called balance! squishy heroes usually deal the most damage so they should be twigs a good supports going to keep you up a bit longer then that so will proper positioning.

"Pick 9 friends and start a game and dont buy any items. we did that a couple of times and the game was twice as fun. sure, the games last too long because we couldnt kill objectives, obviously. but laning phase and teamfights were so much better."

^ if we balanced base on this BS you just stated matches would never end and playing the game would be a chore of someones time.

[static patio]

I dont know at what elo you are playing, but paragon players rarely miss any abilities. and no, you cant sidestep most of the abilities. You can sidestep when you are far away, but in basic attack range, you cant. Good players predict in which direction you move. I dont know if you have played the game or not, if you think you can just dodge stuff with WASD. what the helly.

squishy heroes shouldnt die out of 2-3 skills. thats called call of duty. thats called unfun. thats called people quit the game and write 60 commets under my YT video how bad the TTK is and that they dont wanna play it that way. thats called, you cant use your kit, you cant use the map, you cant use skill expression.

As I said, we tried it. we played without items a couple if times. You didnt, but sure you have an opinion without having tested it by yourself lol.
And as I said OBVIOUSLY we couldnt finish. towers and objectices are not balanced around „no item damage“. Bro PLEASE use your brain. It cant be that hard to imagine that towers and objectives health numbers can be changed too 😭😭😭

[flat marlin]

I do think squishies should die in one skill rotation in the late game but early-midgame could use a little fine tuning.

[dry ferry]

farther away so you mean the literal new map they are working on ???? the current game is getting balanced out for the new map its clear as day thats what is occurring. the current tiny map has to many tight areas where CC and abilities are easy AF to land regardless of how much they keep making everything zoom around. which on that tiny map movespeed is way way over what it should be at but for the new map it feels litterally perfect.

its not called call of duty....

ADCs are the damn win condition of a teamfight if they dont die fast they would litterally be to strong or you have another scenario where we are back in a damn unfun tank meta because in order to buff hp on a squishy target you have to nerf damage they deal what happens to all these tanks and bruisers already taking tons of hits?? oh thats right they get even tankier so what heroes get picked over everything else oh look we back in a damn tank meta crazy how that works out........

I dont care about your youtube comments Mobas are hard games the squishy roles are usually harder to play by their very nature and it should be that way. Mobas are about skill and strategy every choice you make should matter

[dry ferry]

this is how it currently works

it might feel slightly fast because they missed the balance mark this patch

[static patio]

they reduced HP and HP growth specifically for squishies. reducing TTK was intentional. dont repeat that they „missed the mark“ all the time. they didnt. they wanted the ttk to be faster. its not a balancing mistake. is a choice and a direction.

[dry ferry]

they missed the mark for damage numbers with the hero changes.

which amplifies witht he health change.

the health change itself was fine

they want squishy heroes to have to play better rather then be as safe as they were which again if you have played on the new map you would understand the change

its all being prepped for the new map its clear as day

[static patio]

reducing TTK on a bigger map doesnt make any sense when the movementspeed stays the same bro. you making things up.

If you have a longer way to you tower, TTK can be longer. if you have shorter ways to your tower, TTK has to be shorter, because on a gank you have to die quicker, before you can reach safety all the time and never die.

So with a bigger map, the TTK should get LONGER not shorter.
Movementspeed, as I said, stays the same and it wont get faster, beacuse walking animations are limited. you cant just overhaul 50 heroes animations just to let them move a little faster.

clear as day is, that you dont know what you are talking about and just want to play call of duty on a moba map. which, with respect, is absolutely fine.
If you like that type of gameplay. go for it. come back to me, when you are in paragon and you cant make 1 step without dying immediately.

this is even worse for new players, they will quit the game even faster because its too frustrating to get killed so fast.

its not that "squishies" are just on 1 role.
Its ADC, many supporters, Midlaners, Assassins and jungle ADCs like serath or yin.
The short TTK hits all of these heroes, not just ADCs.

[dry ferry]

the devs are taking the game away from the cod mode it has been for the past 6 months I havent been playing the game. Sorry you dont like it. But I want my decisions and choices to mean things in a MOBA I play. constantly grouping up deathballing around a tiny map playing what is essentially hero shooter isnt a MOBA to me.

TTK should not get longer you have more space to dodge on the new map with the mobility they gave out . longer TTK and a bigger map your asking for 1hour plus games on average .

If new players are quitting because they dont want to learn a MOBA which is by its nature a hard game genre then they have plenty of other hero shooters on the market to go play . This needs to be a MOBA first and formost not a forgiving hero shooter. plenty of side for fun modes from ARAM to nitro to provide that.

Mobas are about all your decisions meaning something and its a game of trade offs to take the core. that is what a MOBA is. The current game doesnt punish bad play enough . If I had to guess this is something most of the top tournament players are telling the devs. and now they are finally learning and listening to that feedback. because the game with the new map felt once again like a proper MOBA .

[dreamy cedar]

How am I cherry picking? Your the one posting selective clips and whats sad is the one you chose dont even help your argument here LOL your still stuck back in Paragon days. You want to know why the broader audience did not like Paragon? Because the matches were miserable and took forever.

You dont up TTK and keep matches the same time frame because you by defualt make everyone harder to kill. You dont design games around people that spend all day streaming and have all the free time in the world the vast majority of gamers work actual jobs and are on a time frame, nobody wants to come home and have 1 hour matches.

[static patio]

The goal is to destroy the core, not to have most kills.

you can reduce match length by

• increasing death timers
• reduce tower HP
• reduce core HP
• buff minions speed
• buff minion health
• buff minion tower damage
• reduce tower damage on minions
• buff orb prime buff
• remove T2 towers
• remove jumppads after a given time
• buff super minions

and so on. im not saying that I want anything specific of these points, but saying „longer ttk means longer matches“ is just cope and false.

but who im talking to? lol. you want cod on a moba map and try to let it look like a „true moba“

[dreamy cedar]

Hey dipstick you cant do any of those things in a timely fashion if you cant kill people dumbass.

[static patio]

holy f.
who on earth said that we shouldnt kill people?

you cant even have a dicussuon properly lol

you think on 1 or 0.

there is no greyscale in your mind

either you are oneshot or you are unkillable in your opinion

[dreamy cedar]

Your the one who has been insulting us telling us we arent using our brians and now youe crying the victim

[static patio]

nothing in between.

doenst make sense to argue with you tbh

[dreamy cedar]

Feelings mutual

I dont give a shit want your rank is being Paragon does not make you exempt from having dumb takes. This is no longer Paragon, people do not want Paragon TTK.

[static patio]

this is cope too. there are ZERO people who posted about wanting to have shorter ttk, but there are hundreds of comments of people who think ttk is too short

[dreamy cedar]

You dont even think, you have to fight to achieve all those things and if your fighting with increase TTK those things will have no effect, you will be fighting MORE with these changes.

[static patio]

just because YOU want short ttk, doesnt mean the majority wants it

https://youtu.be/j23dHKeBhpU?is=O4eI4xrCrXFHDrCb

go read the comments. you can just translate them in english. go read them all. try to search for comments who like shorter ttk and come back when you found one

you can read all the complaints here in discord too as I said a couple of times.

it doesnt matter what the minority wants. the game should be developed for the masses, not for call of duty enjoyers

[dreamy cedar]

You dont even know what the masses are, your going by some polls taken years ago when it was mostly old Paragon players and think because some people mad on social media is the masses, your not even considering people not involved in online discourse but oh your to ate up with superiority complex for that.

[static patio]

yeah sure. 0 people wanting shorter ttk is a sign that we should bring in shorter ttk 😭😭

[dreamy cedar]

Prove its zero people.

[static patio]

this discord and reddit is full of people complaining but sure. only long ttk people are on social media

seems legit bro

[static patio]

show me one post on reddit or discord or somewhere else

just 1

[dreamy cedar]

There are 3 of us here arguing against you lol

[static patio]

lets make a deal. for every post you can show me, where someone wants shorter ttk, Ill show you 5 from people who complain about short ttk ok?

[static patio]

yeah and you 3 guys are the only ones on the whole internet. you are rhe only ones commenting against it in here AND reddit

[dreamy cedar]

People who are satisfied with the game are not going to come and argue with some dense people on the internet.

Everybody knows in gaming the complainers are the loudest ones on social media.

People are not going to ask for longer TTK because most people dont even know what it means

[dreamy cedar]

Has it ever crossed your mind the game is going this direction because data shows Omeda something otherwise? As if there are more people than just the ones complaining online?

[static patio]

the only data which can show is new player retention. IF new player retention is better with shorter TTK, it be so. You cant look up the data, so we both just can guess.

but what we both can see is the ammount of complaints online and player count and the number on steam players is on a way down since july 2025. It went up now because of ranked reset, hero reworks and a new map + hero but its going downhill again.

look at smite compared to pred for example. smite shows growth

they reduced TTK a couple of times now, but the player numbers dont show any growth because of that.

but yeah, maybe new player retention is a different number. who knows. I dont have the data

[dreamy cedar]

So dont you think it would be a good idea to stop saying "The majority wants X" if you dont really know?

[static patio]

ok I rephrase it: The overwhealming majority of VISIBLE feedback wants longer ttk.

is that ok for you?

I hope it is, because you can check it yourself

[dreamy cedar]

Yes thats better

[hearty parcel]

Just a little support doing little support things 🥰

https://www.reddit.com/r/PredecessorGame/s/x2v5x0ftX7

[plain coyote]

certainly not building like a support not to mention the kills bro is the adc at this point

[plain coyote]

problem with this is alot of these players cant even build properly the context of thier deaths is what matters not people just complaining

[hearty parcel]

A support character shouldn't be able to buy damage and be a damage character, it should clearly be lower on damage and not one shot people

[plain coyote]

i mean they can if they get fed 9 kills with no deaths

[hearty parcel]

A support character have a kit specifically designed to be a support, with more CC, more utility, better tools, additional options other characters doesn't have, etc

And in exchange of having all that, your character have less damage and is a lesser menace than other heroes

You can't have a Leona, Nautilus, Nammi, from League of legends having the same damage than bruiser/mage characters, as their whole kit is designed to be a support, and they have things that other more offensive characters wouldn't have

[plain coyote]

ok but maco isnt those champs those are tank supports maco has always leaned more into the dmg side of things (maybe he should get nerfed) but u got fed took advantage of it built more aggressive and thus did more dmg a support should be 1-2 lv behind maco was fed and the enemy team was behind he dumped his whole kit and got tower shots of course he will deal dmg

oh and skylar and ramp where already half health ripe for killing

go feed karma, pyke, senna, lux same thing happens

[hearty parcel]

Maco wasn't designed to be a character based on damaged that is something that Omeda did for Predecessor following her horrible design direction of overbloating all characters kits

• In Overprime the ultimate ability didn't stun all the times, to stun with it you needed to smash the enemies against a wall, so the stun we saw in this clip wouldn't have happened. In exchange when the ultimate exploded it always let a healing area in the ground (what Predecessor Maco have as an augment, in Overprime was the default)
• In Overprime Maco's alternate ability wasn't an stun, it just pushed the enemies on impact, but didn't stun them, so again, what we see in the clip wouldn't have happened with Overprime version, the first ability of the clip would have just pushed the enemies.
• In Overprime the primary ability had half of the damage than in Predecessor, what it offered aside of the heal to allies and damage to enemies was, movement speed to impacted allies, and anti heal for impacted enemies
• The secondary ability is basically the same in both games, just that Predecessor version does a little more damage, have a little more scaling, but grants a substantially bugger shield, which can be even bigger with the shield augment

Basically he was designed as an annoying character that just pushed people, but without hard CC, and he had way less damage than Predecessors version, it's Omeda the ones that fucked up his design

[hearty parcel]

Those are great examples

• Karma is a support character with more damage, but it also have way less utility, her CC is just 1 and it has a delay, it won't stop an assassin that jumps on the ADC and try to kill it
• Literally the same with Senna, just 1 CC and it needs a charge time to be applied, aside if that it doesn't have much more direct utility towards the enemies, just s "invisibility, that is visible and a shield in the ult. It's a damage based support but in the part of the support it lacks a lot
• Lux is basically a mage played in the support role, is the same as playing Fey, you miss the only stun she had and you are useless in terms of support, the team It's behind and you can't do anything as support due to the lack of damage
• Pyke is the special case of an assassin designed support, created in purpose for that role, it have CC and damage, but he can't build HP, the HP items directly doesn't give him additional HP, he can't heal, he can't give shields, he can't tank (due to not getting HP), his CC is single target and the other need enemies to be in the same spot to stun several at once, he is just raw damage if that fails you and the ADC are fucked

Oh and I forgot to mention that those support,. except for Pyke have 0 mobility

Now let's look at Maco

• He heals
• He has a massive shield for himself and can tank
• He has mobility
• He have a massive AOE CC that doesn't need any condition, any delay or any setup to be used
• And on top of that he has a damage that shouldn't have

I don't always agree with what LoL does, but at least their general character gameplay design makes some sense

[plain coyote]

never really played OP much so from my perspective hes been this jack of all trade with dmg and cc and mobility which i think is broken my point is that u took a dmg leaning champ with CC and invested into more dmg which is what let u pull that off not to mention the enemy team fed u i think on the topic of TTK in that moment its not a good example. That being said i get ur point with Maco hes does to much easily a must ban for me his scaling should be nerfed i think he has them cus omeda wants him to flex mid once in a while

[hearty parcel]

My point is that Maco shouldn't be a DMG leaning champ, and that support character should be that support character and that just by building DMG items they shouldn't manage to get that damage, unless the character has been designed to be that, and by designed I mean a design that makes sense and is coherent with what the hero offers

[plain coyote]

i agree with that its dekker issue again but worse

[hearty parcel]

If Omeda releases a hero like Senna, Karma, Pyke that are specifically designed to have damage and to have it they loose other things, as I explained like the example of the CC that needs some time to activate, then ok, that hero can have damage and be built to do damage, but if a hero is like Maco that have all the things he have, then that shouldn't happen

[hearty parcel]

Yeah, with Dekker is exactly the same, and I still don't understand why Omeda just hasn't gutted her damage and scaling values. They has reduced them a lot compared to how it was at the beginning, but they do it little by little. Patch by patch through the months and years, and then in a random patch they boost the damage values again, it's just absurd

[plain coyote]

its thier loop balance the game till TTK is almost just right then reset

i think these are the type of changes and experimenting we needed way earlier but its whatever i hope with the new map we will have a more balanced loop

[dry ferry]

Let's not look at maco as a balance example lol that heroes so ridiculously Cracked this patch in a gamebreaking way tbh.

[hearty parcel]

It's a perfect example of how Omeda design their characters.

They had a perfectly designed support utility character in Overprime, it was a support, it had the damage of a support it had the utility of a support, mobility, heal, AOE heal with the ultimate, shields, but he didn't had a secure hard CC, only a push and a conditional CC with the ultimate that needed from s wall.

What did Omeda? Give him more damage, make him easier to play, boost his scalings, give him granted hard CC, and ruin what already was a great support hero design

Literally there wasn't any reason to change him, but they decided to do it, and make the absurd thing we have right now in the game

[dreamy cedar]

I can tell you dont play League often because AP Nami and Nautilus slaps.

[dry ferry]

Omedas kit for him is fine its just way overtuned from his personal sheild to his damage and healing. Its a numbers problem

[hearty parcel]

For me it's not just a matter of numbers, the game would be way better if the characters kit had strengths, weaknesses,. vulnerabilities, deficiencies, proficiencies, etc. Instead of everyone having everything and then trying to adjust the numbers. Something that by experience we know that Omeda tends to do really bad

[dry ferry]

They would have to redesign everything now and they just redid kits to make them more on par so its just not gonna happen.

[dreamy cedar]

I really do not understand this take of every character needing a unique weakness to them. The vast majority of MOBA characters have no glaring weaknesses. Playing against characters ultimatly comes down to learning their patterns and playing around thier cooldowns.

[hearty parcel]

I never said it's has to be unique.

A weakness can be having a bad wave clear, a character like Argus who have range, DPS, burst, CC, vertical mobility with the crystal. Super long range execution ability with the ultimate, etc. Could perfectly have bad waves clear to balance the character

[quaint skiff]

It’s just good game design to have trade offs. That’s what makes player choices matter. If every gun in CS was good at everything, your gun selection wouldn’t really matter.

That’s what makes games interesting

[hearty parcel]

Again taking LoL as an example, there are many characters that doesn't clear well, from mid to top character, that isn't an strength of the character and other characters can abuse that to take to get an advantage.

That is something that barely happens in Predecessor, all the characters have practically perfect wave clear, with some exceptions like some supports, Kira and some other isolated characters

Omega simply doesn't give this as a weakness for the character, is an strategic factor that they decided to not have in their game. And the same for many other possible weaknesses or vulnerabilities that could be added to the characters, long CD to have a window of opportunity, supports having and attacks speed and bad base damage to make them be less dangerous in the duo lane (something that seems that they finally understood this patch), tanks being able to tank well, but not able to be a menace for others, important abilities having small hiboxes to make them only be used at a really good moemnt where you know you won't fail the ability, and many other things that can be added to the characters to make the matchups with them and against them more interesting and dynamic

[quaint skiff]

This is also a massive item problem. Not just kits. Itemizing into damage as a support should give up support efficacy. But support items are almost all tied to magic power. So a general support build still does damage, and building full mage still gives you stronger support power since support stats scale with magic power

But that’s going away from the topic of low TTK

[dreamy cedar]

May I remind you that we are talking about a roster of a meager 50 characters compared to League who has 172. Its going to feel that way given how small the roster is at the moment, it only feels more isolated in League because of how expansive the roster is. The ratio of these differences is roughly the same.

[hearty parcel]

That comment doesn't make any sense, by having less characters it makes easier for pred to design the character in a better way

The more characters a game have the harder is to come with new original and interesting ideas, to design the character and make them work in a game with more characters, to be original, etc.

And what I mentioned above have nothing to do with the amount of characters, Omeda design their characters by giving them whatever ability or effect they want, without thinking on creating proper designs with weaknesses, limitations, strong and weak points etc.

Omeda does this on purpose, it's not that they can't is that they don't want

[dreamy cedar]

Your not understanding what I am saying, because we have a smaller roster compared to other MOBAS its going to feel like we have more of one thing than another. Out of that 172 there are only a handful of characters that have objectively poor wave clear.

[hearty parcel]

And again, as I already said I'm not talking about making the character different between them, I'm talking about designing the character in a way that have pros and cons, that have string points and weak points, that a character can excel in a department while having a vulnerability in other

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT MAKING THE CHARACTERS DIFFERENT BETWEEN THEM

[dreamy cedar]

Its easier to have vast differences when there is more of something.

[hearty parcel]

I'm understanding what you are saying just that thing have nothing to do with what I'm saying

[dreamy cedar]

It does

[hearty parcel]

It's not about making the character have unique weaknesses, having unique anything, my point is about giving characters ANY WEAKNESS, designing them with that in mind, instead of what Omeda does if just adding and adding and adding and adding on top of what the character does

[astral pivot]

Haven't really played this game in a while, only really pop in from time to time. Kinda sad to see the TTK and overloaded kit discussions are still a thing.

Pretty sure my feedback through messages are gone cause they were old posts, but yeah...

[quaint skiff]

Both of those have gotten way worse too lmao

[plain coyote]

this is always going to be a thing eventually they will do crazy balance changes just to shake things up

[dreamy cedar]

People are also talking about Bigfoot, Loch Ness, and other things that dont exist.

[static patio]

@astral pivot

[fierce ore]

It seems the goal is a faster pace of action to attract more casuals and their money.

Unfortunately this is essentially a strategy of losing long term hardcore players that love MOBAs and their complexity in favor of getting a few months of play out of a large crowd that will move on to the next thing tomorrow regardless.

[plain coyote]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-eZ8_P04NXA
guys deadlock ttk is so fast he used one ability to kill 2 people

[fierce ore]

He used his Ult to kill 2 nearly dead people, in a different game.

Failing to see the relevance to this discussion.

[plain coyote]

because thats the same logic sonic is using hes just showing clips with no real context other than he died quick

those guys deserved to die so did sonic in his clips

in one of his clips hes dies quickly to a murduock that like 4 lvs above him but sure TTK is the issue there

[dreamy cedar]

Posting 46 sec fights is not helping your case fraulein.

[plain coyote]

like im not even agaisnt his case but nothing hes posted actually helps Moba are about stacking leads and trying to maintain it as long as possible if u play right u are rewarded by getting to kill people faster its ur job to make sure the enemy doesnt get to the point they can just delete you

[dreamy cedar]

Yea this is just MOBA basic knowledge.

[plain coyote]

only thing i agree with is devs nerfing HP and armor scaling while buffing the fuck out of everyone

[dreamy cedar]

I actually agree with that too but I wont tell him that or directly acknowledge him about it either.😂

[plain coyote]

lol

[dry ferry]

They are adding choices and such mattering with the new map though so its not all losing moba players

I agree would it be nice to have weaknesses sure

But they already turned down that feedback

[dry ferry]

Squishies were to safe

Although

They need to now adress silentium as an item because into assassins this is just busted when they die from a sneeze

[astral pivot]

I'll be fair in saying that the clips KINDA prove his issue in a circumstantial way, just not really in the way they should and some of the clips seem to just be more of an emotional response to the problem.

At the end of the day, ragebait and triggering is key to engagement, after all.

But in every clip in the first short I saw, I feel like I can provide reasons as to why things went that way and why they probably should have went that way.

[quaint skiff]

Omeda nerfed everyone’s health and buffed everyone’s damage. Idek how this is a conversation

You might like the lower TTK but it IS lower

[astral pivot]

TTK in this game has always been linked to overloaded kits. People were complaining about TTK 3 years ago because if you were hit by one CC you were confirmed dead since everyone had CC.

I'm not saying it's invalid to complain about TTK now, I'm just saying that if the kits are still overloaded and the HP has dropped significantly, then complaints are probably pretty valid regarding TTK.

[hearty parcel]

Which resulted in the TTK being lower, which is the point of discussion, isn't it?

If you buff everyone whole at the same time makes everyone have less HP and have less HP per level, then the result is that people die faster than before.

The clips are just an example, to add some context to the conversation, If those examples don't work for you, ignore them and just watch how the game is played.
Examples are just that, examples

[hearty parcel]

So you are here, in a feedback forum, adding a lot of noise, making the conversations more.difficult and harder to provide feedback, just to annoy others?

[dreamy cedar]

Have a sense of humor bub.

[hearty parcel]

Man this is a feedback forum

If you are not going to contribute to the discussion just to to the general channel, Reddit or any other part

This is not the place to troll others just to have fun

[dreamy cedar]

Quit being a Barney Fife bro

Learn how to jest, please spare me the platitudes. Ive done nothing but stay on topic the whole time.

I make one jesting comment and here you come to arrest me and preach a sermon.

[dry ferry]

I mean the guy requesting sparrow to not die to 2 full skill rotations its just not logical in a balance moba where the ADC is a win condition high damaging hero.

[dreamy cedar]

Its a MOBA not Mortal Kombat.

[pseudo mantle]

My take is that I'd like to be on a "two-strike" methodology

CC me once, ouchie, CC me twice, alright, I deserved it

If 1 CC equals my death where I don't even see all of my surroundings due to field of view, I'm sorry, I think I'd rather play another game

The "action" part in the self-proclaimed "action MOBA" is severely diminished in my experience

[static patio]

No, I didnt say that. You said that how many skill rotations does a gideon need with 5 items to kill a sparrow.

my response was, at least more than one, because Gideon has mobility, long range and a big AOE CC ultimate. why on earth should a hero with so much team fight and poke value be able to do what an assassin should do? where is rhe point of picking a 1 target burst hero, without any mobilitly like belica for example, when you can do the same with ANY hero.

Killing ADCs in a short time should ONLY be possible by heroes who are especially designed for that purpose like kallari, countess, belica or even morigesh.

Heroes with high single target damage, and not just ANY mages ir heroes.

so please stick to the facts.

[dreamy cedar]

More than one means two.

Frualien

[ashen scaffold]

Not really. It can be 1 and a half a rotation. Say he lands both rocks and ults. The. Just needs another rock to secure that's still more than 1 skill rotation. Or 2 rocks twice.

[dreamy cedar]

Think about this, a 5 item Gideons entire kit dump is not able to kill a Sparrow and requires follow up after that.

How does this sound healthy for game length.

[static patio]

dont expect these guys to think

[dreamy cedar]

How can a guy named Sonic want the game to move so slow?

[dry ferry]

"Heroes with high single damage and not just any mages ir heroes"

You realize gideon is a burst mage right?

[dreamy cedar]

Fr man cmon how do you not grasp what role Gideon has?

He is the cookie cutter basic burst mage.

A text book burst mage design

AOE damage in high damaging bursts.

[ashen scaffold]

Broski, a 5 item gid is on like 5s cooldowns. Lord forbid the fight lasts an extra 5 seconds 😂 And I think your forgetting the fact that ttk also applies to adc's. We also want adc's to take slightly longer to get kills not just 3 tapping with max attackspeed and crit

Not to mention if he did drop ult by the time he's finished his cooldowns are back up anyway

[dreamy cedar]

I will ask again how do you think this will effect match lengths and the effect it will have on tanks?

[ashen scaffold]

Just my thoughts ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[dry ferry]

I dont want this because ttk on tanks already takes a hot minute to kill them

As I said you touch ttk you touch all of it

Slight increase fine but what some people are asking for will kill game flow

[dreamy cedar]

Lowering the damage of adcs, assassins, and mages will indirectly buff all tanks and fighters.

[dry ferry]

Not to mention how many skills are dodgeable now when you have more space on the new map

It just won't work

[dreamy cedar]

They are already a handful to take down and you want to make them even more difficult to kill?

[static patio]

what has gideon damage to do with game length. please explain

[static patio]

so what? then buff anti tank items or nerf tanks? how about that?

you act like the devs could change damage numbers and health numbers for squishies but tank numbers are untouchable or what 😂😂😂

[ashen scaffold]

Man why is everyone always fixated on tanks? Tanks are only an issue because they still do so much damage. If you lower the damage tanks can dish out then you've balanced it all out no? Tanks will still be tanky, squishies still have some counter play against non assassins, it's a win win?

[dreamy cedar]

If your proposing that Sparrow should be able to face tank a full Gideon ult along with ability follow ups then how much more difficult is it going to be to kill Steel, Mourn, Severog, and Terra?

When people are harder to kill fights last longer which means matches get prolonged especially if a fight does not result in a death.

[static patio]

make back ports longer
make deathtimers longer

whats the issue? bro u act like NOTHING can be tweaked, just because TTK is longer than what we have

its insane

[dreamy cedar]

Because tanks prolong fights and if you lessen damage, it prolongs fights further henceforth prolonging matches, y'all dont comprehend its all cohesive.

[static patio]

just balance it. tanks are too tanky, because we have less damage? so nerf tanks or tank items. its not that hard

[plain coyote]

i mean its all a loop anyways there will be faster ttk era and slower ttk era

[ashen scaffold]

I wish we had slow ttk era's 😭

[static patio]

game is taking too long? make deathtimers longer. make backport longer. remove jumppads lategame. buff super minions. buff prime. nerf tower health. whatever.

everything can be balanced.

[ashen scaffold]

Only had like 1 patch where it was relatively slow

[plain coyote]

god forbid they let us have a tank meta again

[dreamy cedar]

Make back ports longer, okay you just extended another factor in making matches longer. Make death timers longer? You just made the game less interactive.

[static patio]

you are talkin about „less interactive“ bro.

dying in 1 second is the meaning of less interactive.

if you die less often, you can play the game more. if you fight longer, you play the game more

its MORE interactive

[plain coyote]

hmm so slower fights but more punishment for dieing

[dreamy cedar]

That would make for such ungratifying gameplay, people want to get kills, your solution is make it so where a high KDA is 5 kills in a match just so you can have longer fights.

[ashen scaffold]

Are we just not allowed to punish people who died or back? If it's longer you get towers/objectives easier no??? How is that less interactive. You actually get to do more because you have more free time

[static patio]

A kill is 0 satisfying if you kill someone every 2 minutes.

a kill means nothing if every match is 50/50 kills

[dreamy cedar]

Aint nobody dying in 1 second on average in matches this is such an exageration. If your dying in 1 second constantly you are doing something wrong. You have fed the fuck out of the enemy.

[static patio]

guys. I give up

[dreamy cedar]

So then you just creates the same scenario on a smaller scale lol.

[ashen scaffold]

I wish I recorded gameplay for times like this

[static patio]

Enjoy the game. just kill everyone by pressing Q, RMB, R in 1 second and think you are a crazy player because u pushed 3 buttons at once

really great skill expression

come back to me, when you are in paragon, where people will snowball out of 1 kill so hard, you cant step out of your base

[dreamy cedar]

Hey just scroll up and you will see sonic fighting for 46 seconds in a 1v4. He proves my point for me.

[dreamy cedar]

I will enjoy the game while your crying

[static patio]

In this clip, I damaged dekker by 50% in 1 combo as a non fed SUPPORT

but yeah, we dont have low ttk I guess

this guy is insane. im out

[dreamy cedar]

Bro its nothing short of a miracle you make it to Paragon.

[dreamy cedar]

You did not kill her in 1 second like your preaching.

[static patio]

I made it to paragon because I can survive 46s in this low ttk meta.

[plain coyote]

ngl im bias as i mainly play bruisers and tanks so my typical gameplay isnt killing or dying in one skill rotation but like i feel like thats the trade off with other roles they have insane dmg potential if they get to live longer they would just win more often.

[dreamy cedar]

Thank you for admitting you dont get killed in 1 second.

[plain coyote]

patch just needs more time more nerfs are coming

[dreamy cedar]

Look at everyone "dying in 1 second" in this 51 second long teamfight.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PredecessorGame/s/n8azZJNwEW

By y'alls logic this is suppose to be impossible.

[plain coyote]

also i still think current ttk is way better than 1.4 era so like the backtrack aint as bad as yall make it sound i couldnt even comprehend how i died before

[dreamy cedar]

MOBAS are a game of seconds not minutes.

[ashen scaffold]

Current TTK:
Character gets 1 skill rotation killed = Good according to some people
Slower TTK:
Character gets 1 skill rotation and escapes on low health = Bad according to some people

With the slower TTK example the character that escapes now has to back, regain health and return to the fight which still takes almost as much time as dying with the Fast TTK. The difference is that theres no kill gold in that whole exchange. You don't always need to get a kill to be able to end a game or do an objective. Obviously a bigger map would instantly make that even more clear but it's still quite noticeable on the current map.

The assumption that low TTK will make matches longer is just not true and I don't get where this idea is coming from (I assume it's from paragon legacy where matches took 1hour). You can get MUCH better trades in a prolonged fight than a short one because you have more time do things. People are also much more willing to fight when they don't insta die which is part of the reason people enjoy tanks so much this patch. People dislike dying, especially when there is literally no counter play except not being there. And just thinking from a viewers perspective, especially if they are a new player, seeing a longer fight teaches you more about the game than watching someone dying in 5s to 2 abilities.

Another example is say it's a 4v5 prolonged fight, the guy that decided to split push in offlane instead can get 2 towers and possibly inhib now. That would mean that for the next few fights they'll be in a 5v4 situation since one player on the enemy team has to respond to the super minions. In a short TTK game that's just not happening because the fight ends quickly, they get the objective and then backs and is already there to stop the T2 tower from being taken. All a short TTK game does is push players to death brawl because thats the only way to end the game, having everyone else to be dead and not able to do anything.

[dry ferry]

Yep

Let them cook that new map is gonna be such a nice game shift

[quaint skiff]

Match length would go back to what it was, which was the same as it was now. You realize we had longer TTK 3 weeks ago right

[dreamy cedar]

They were complaining it was too long before this patch.

They are wanting to triple TTK.

[plain coyote]

TTK is one of the many variables that affects match time so while slow ttk wont be the main reason matches last longer it facilitates it because if people live longer and are given more chances that increases the odds of a match going on longer. Its about the context of the fight fed people should kill you and leads should matter i can understand how someone would want more time and counter play options but positioning is just such a fundamental skill in any competitive sport u cant escape this even with slower TTK u get to a point where people are going to punish you for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

fast or slow TTK A 4v5 shouldn't really be a prolonged fight unless ur stalling purposefully and u need to be even with the enemy or ahead. Split pushing is still very possible in this ttk probably not meta tho

[astral plinth]

Removing jump pads would have probably been one of the best things they could have done way back when and idk why it was never addressed.

[ashen scaffold]

I only think it would increase the match length if there wasn't enough objectives to capitalise on. We have Fangtooth, mini-prime, big prime and shaper plus towers. These are objectives people have to fight over anyway right, your not going to give up a fangtooth or an orb prime if you can prevent it. If there's a prolonged fight over an objective and one side is losing and has to escape, they have 2 options. Either they fully back and give up the objective or they hover around on low health hoping they can steal. Either way the team that "won" the prolonged fight is still at an advantage regardless of if they managed to get kills or not.

I agree that positioning is important and if your out of position you should be punished heavily. Yes a longer TTK might mean that the person may not die but a kill shouldn't always be the decider for what a good trade or not. If the enemy jungle was out of position and gets heavily damaged but manages to escape with low health, that would still mean a free objective for your team since the jungle would need to back. If we had a bigger map this would be even more punishing to the point of being equal to dying.

[static patio]

My hope was, that with a bigger map, we can have longer TTK. but as we see, the ttk is getting shorter and shorter.

You explained the possible situations well, but game length is not much influenced by TTK.

You can do many things to lower game length:

• reduce tower HP
• faster/stronger minions
• remove jumppads
• lower opjective HP (prime, fang etc)
• buff prime buff
• make back porting take longer
• make health reg in the base take longer

I dont think that you have to die EVERYTIME you eat a stun or take a bad trade. Its enough to force people to back out. You can also make a kill more valuable to compensate for less kills in a match.

There are 1000 things the devs could change to allow a healthy ttk which allows to use mobility, skill expression, the map, positioning, „over time“ abilities and so on, instead of just bursting everything in a nano second.

[dry ferry]

This is so over exaggerated

[fierce ore]

I also feel an important aspect is that a fast TTK (1-2.5 skill rotation in a 1v1, or .5 seconds in team fights) prevents a competitive/exciting/fun end game by promoting a high kill count and excessive steamrolling.

So basically people complained about hour long amazing matches full of intense and complex team fights that might cross half the map back in the day from paragon.

They made everything faster/closer/harder hitting/lower health/lower def and succeeded in offering 40-50 minute games (the same now if the match isnt a total steamroll) but in doing so they sacrificed having an end of the match that is ever closely competed/satisfying to play.

People were still investing large chunks of time, but without the payoff of a fun end of match experience.

Paragon shut down shortly after.

If you make it so that losing a fight means escaping with low health more often than it means dying, the amount of gold on either team stays closer over time. So the pressure of forcing them to run helps farm faster and win objectives which gives the team more pressure and money without always creating fed heros/situations the losing team has no chance to come back from unless the fed team makes some absolutely horrible mistake.

[fierce ore]

Sorry but its completely true and not exaggerated in any way.

[dry ferry]

https://www.twitch.tv/predecessorgame

watch the tourney its not true

we were not able to move around as much before theres an ability to dodge more therefor TTK has to also be quicker to account for it.

or no one would die

[fierce ore]

I honestly would like to watch it but they want me to watch ads for longer than gameplay....

I watched like 40 seconds of the 1st match and they queued up 5 commercials. Exited immediately.