LEGACY

[bright fog]

It truly is like a dream to be back on this map absolutely Kudos to the team for bringing it back. I want to make a list of my Pros and Cons the things they should take from this map and the things they should scrap.

Pros:

1. The Boss Pits
   are better in every Possible way the fights you can have at these pits are awesome so many different things to jump on and play around.

2. The gold buffs around the map adding more things for jungles to collect and steal from each other is great

3. The jungle! Beneath the lanes and overall feel it feels like a jungle.

4. Shadow pools are fantastic AKA the bushes Paragon had are a huge improvement over fog walls

5. Entry points to the lanes there's so many more ways to approach fights on this map

6. the Look and Scale being able to see the enemy all the way at base tower to tower in the middle is breathtaking as I remember it.

7. The Double Jump pad is kind of growing on me I think ( still think there may be points where 1 or both should be shut off but overall I think it adds to the feel of scale of this map.

8. Jungle borderline has no ceiling allows for so many cool things to take place .

9. Jungle Walls create line of sight blocks to the lanes your not having rampages throwing rocks from middle of a river to people laning past wards. which is a huge W !

10. Tower to Tower Distances feel longer and more punishable for Ganks to occur. current pred feels way to safe because how short the distances are.

Cons:

1. The Jungle hallways are far to narrow allowing for CC heavy comps to just rail on people kind of unfun and hard to dodge much in the jungle.

2. Jungle layout can be confusing if you have never played Legacy

3. Jungle Canopy being See through kind of feels rough when trying to go for ganks and such. Adding a fog or some type of effect should help with this .

Conclusion:

Legacy is the better map and the weakest part of the map is the jungle just needing tweaks to make it work.

[winged laurel]

Agree with the jungle being cramped. Also not a fan of the steep stairs and high platforms in side lanes. At times you’re farming at what feels like almost a 90 degree angle lol.

[bright fog]

thats fair to say could prob lower that a bit

[grim mantle]

I would add that lanes are also really narrow and the central part of side lanes is just like 2 meters, it's like fighting in a little mound which is weird

If you look how original Legacy midlane was, you will see that it was a massive platform to have great fights, but now it's just a really small lane with the 4 circumferences that gives a bit of space, but itself could be wider

[muted fable]

Those mounds in the side lanes are awful. Not quite as bad in solo but i dislike it so much I don’t want to play those roles.

[bright fog]

Ya I think they shrunk the map down to fit no travel mode and and I think that's why the pathing feels cramped/ steep.

Cause I don't remember it being this narrow

[raven night]

"Jungle layout can be confusing if you have never played Legacy" - I did play legacy and it is still and always will be confucing. It needs rework

[bright fog]

Yep

[covert echo]

Agree with all of the points here.

I’d like to see the side lanes widened similar to midlane. T1 has a lot of choke points

Lane sizes like OG legacy midlane I think would be amazing

Fang pit could be widened too

[covert echo]

I think this would feel better if the lanes were longer. But it’s steep for how short the T1 lanes are

[upbeat sequoia]

Thank you for sharing your feedback about it you guys!

[bright fog]

Oh something I didn't mention the way the buffs and pits are set up makes it so theres really not a strong side weak side effect happening both teams are coming into the objs the exact same way which is way better from a competitive standpoint

[winged laurel]

Legacy has helped me realize I’ve lost all my macro abilities lol. Keeping up with waves and grouping is quite a chore

[bright fog]

Its another reason why the maps better its more thought behind the choices your making.

And when mobas are a game about trade offs it feels great to see that back in some effect. Its been constant teamfighting on the current map legacy brought back some of that individual moba skill

[winged laurel]

Which honestly I think I prefer how long TTK seemed in original paragon. At least on this Legacy map. Because abilities and things were slower. Fights were more methodical. Feels bad slightly now when you run around for 5 minutes, then a team fight only lasts 8 seconds. Still getting used to it

[bright fog]

Ttk is fast atm I do agree

It Was better a few patches back

[chrome coyote]

One more Pro is that the map is symmetrical.

[main quarry]

I am loving the return to Legacy, it feels awesome. I agree with your pros here. Rotations are longer, gold buffs serve as an additional objective - providing more value in regularly checking jgl camps, there are a ton of opportunities to take advantage of verticality, scale is awesome (map feels like a world here), jungle feels "jungly" and vast. Very beautiful map aesthetically too.

As for the cons:

• Jungle hallways are indeed too narrow. As nice as the jungle is aesthetically and with its open concept, it does feel a bit maze-y. There are some awkward pathing decisions you have to make because of the walls set in place and the tight corridors. Having the pathways wider themselves and perhaps looking into slightly connecting the area more with removing small parts of some walls could help.
• While the elevation is nice, and this was also the case in Paragon, solo lane is just very awkwardly designed. The super tall hill, the lack of engagement options in the lane (one main entry where the shadowpool is, which is always warded - making the lane extra safe), make it difficult to gank. It seems more than usual the solo lane is left almost entirely untouched with few rotations because for one, you have to pass by the orb prime area, and it has very limited entryway. I suppose for some this isn’t bad, it definitely is a solo lane more than ever, but I think it can be improved to be a tiny bit more gankable?
• Some vertical jungle entries (from jungle to elevated lane) are a bit hard to utilize. Mainly the solo lane one, but yeah.
• Teleporters are just not being utilized at all. They may as well not exist. Making it easier to access would perhaps make solo lane more accessible (very isolated island atm) as well as cross map traversal in general from solo->duo too.

[main quarry]

I agree. Lanes could be a bit wider. Duo lane is especially pretty cramped. And definitely fang pit should be a bit bigger too

There is also potential for blast flowers to be incorporated into this map. It would work nicely to fill in gaps for heroes that lack mobility. I think it should be used scarcely, but there's at least 2 locations in which it would work imo. Midlane could have one, from the jungle bush entry that is closest to T1 tower. Solo lane could use one from it's small entry closest to T1 tower. And maybe there's a spot in the jungle where it can be used to climb an awkward elevation. I'll prob come back to this and specify that potential location.

[main quarry]

Honestly one part about legacy that feels amazing too is the fact that not every objective fight is an instant 5v5. Rotations taking longer means grouping has to be more decisive and coordinated. It also means split pushing can be more valuable when done at the right time 👍

[covert echo]

Same, love that. Lot of objective fights wind up being 2v2 or 3v3

[grim mantle]

Other thing that really need polish (and its the same for standard map) is the invisible corners of the jungle and sometimes in the lanes, this map have so many unpolished corners that make you get stuck while navigating the jungle

The jungle paths being wider would also help with this problem

[brisk bison]

The jungle as it is right now feels like an actual jungle. In the positive way as was said in OP. The worst thing they could do to this map is making the jungle as plain and boring as the other one. The jungle is perfectly fine the way it is. I’m usually not the person who writes „skill issue“ but not getting confused in the jungle is literally just having map knowledge

Yes it shifts the Meta to the hero’s who are vertically mobile but this is literally something omeda tried to implement for the other map for months now

[bright fog]

awell as well I think how thin the lanes and jungle are and how big skills aoes are and effects it makes it hard to see anything

[dusky aurora]

Great post and I have to agree with many things here - just want to add a few myself.

Shadow Ward pads need to have mini-map icons. It's just nice QoL that should be bog-standard by now. Especially since I and other have been sitting here for a long time complaining about Fey Flowers not having mini-map icons/indicators for their timers.

Items like Berserker's Axe not getting a change in verbage or its' passive to help it work for a map that doesn't have fog-walls, makes me feel like the team isn't thinking about how items, heroes, and the map connect to one another and have interactivity. To overlook an item that requires fog-walls while re-implementing a map that has no fog-walls, just looks bad from my perspective.

Nin brought up the fact that teleport pads are not being utilized. I agree 100%. I think it's because they've been slapped onto the map with 0 thought or care put into their placement. It literally looks like the pad was just copy-pasted behind the Cyan/Gold buffs. There's very little environment around it or things like trees, boulders, buildings, etc - to indicate it would even exist. I thought because that Fey Flowers didn't exist on the map, that they also didn't bother to include the teleporters. Only to - low and behold - check behind Gold/Cyan and see a blue wasteland with a pad in the middle of it. Beautiful 🙄 .

Speaking of Fey Flowers not existing - well....they don't. I don't know why they weren't thought to be included when they DID include the Telepads. They would've made a wonderful addition to the map in certain places.

Overall though, I do want to say that the maps elevation variety and differences are lovely and a welcome change from the incredibly flat and lifeless version of Monolith we currently have. While there are some places that could use some minor adjustments and changes, it's overall fantastic.

Omeda was worried about how melee characters would fit into a map with elevation like this with ranged characters. But I think this map shows that it CAN be done.

I'm not overly struggling as a melee character to contend with rangers despite the elevation gaps and, in some places, the inability to get to them without having some form of movement.

Items like Gaia/Galaxy Greeves greatly lend to the maps elevation differences. Omeda needs to play around with more item design like this for characters other than Brawlers/Tanks/Supports.

I do think however, that with how wide lanes are - we could do with some forms of natural cover to break up the wide open spaces. Things like rocks or random tree stumps, etc. would go a long way.

Other than that; The map seems fine and I've honestly had more fun on this map than I've had on our Monolith, in a long, long time.

There are just things I expected from the level of talent and staff that Omeda has - that are just absent here. Things like the Berserkers Axe problem and Telepad region looking sickeningly barren just feels completely unprofessional with the way that Omeda holds themselves and acts.
That is not what I would expect from a team made up of industry vets.

[umbral cypress]

I personally love the Legacy map and I would prefer it be made a permanent addition. I think the lanes could be made slightly more narrow, and the jungle slightly wider as the jungle feels just a little too cramped. I don't mind it though because it feels like an actual jungle; it feels risky to venture in if you don't have vertical mobility i.e. most carries. I like this aspect. But I do think the jungle paths could be made just slightly wider. I think some cover could be added to lanes to give melee characters an option to move in/retreat from ranged characters. I do love the removal of fog walls in favor of shadow pools. Big win there. The pits are much better as well as they add high ground to fight from. A ranged character can fight from high ground, but could lose that high ground if an assassin character pressures them off. I like the options for various strategies in this regard.

Overall I think the Legacy map is an excellent addition and, again, I would love to see it made into a permanent addition.