Passive Abilities Need to Be Normalized and Function as Abilities Again

[unborn nebula]

Currently there is a pretty severe lack of mechanical accuracy and tooltip information on how passives function. I believe it is stemming from changes made in 1.4 though they were unlisted or possibly unintentional, and certainly by now with new issues popping up with the most recent patches are now definitely unintentional stemming from changes to functionality made that should be reverted.

Either intentionally or unintentionally some passive abilities now do not proc items, when previously they used to like Morigesh passive previously had full proc functionality. I say some because this is extremely inconsistent and tooltips and common sense do not line up on what actually happens with how inconsistent this mechanic is applied. Let me give you a quick (but not exhaustive there are so many to test and I guarantee there are more inconsistencies among the cast) list of abilities to illustrate how bad this is.

1. Aurora passive procs every item, Noxia, Megacosm, Tainted, Dreambinder etc. This is also you might note infinitely refreshing procs as long as you keep hitting the person, so its a pretty extreme example of a passive being able to proc everything.

2. Morigesh passive procs nothing whatsoever.

3. Gideon passive procs no items like Megacosm, but does proc the mana regen augment on ability damage.

4. Belica AUTO ATTACK passive augment does not proc items but does proc the mana regen augment on ability casts.

If this was intentional, I think the change should be reverted and if certain characters need reciprocal nerfs, like Mori (though she wasn't broken before with full procs), do so. But as it stands now the current solution is poor with horrible readability for players where items and augments will basically randomly work or not depending on the character you play with no tooltip or information in game giving you the knowledge of what will and won't work.

I will also note for Mori specifically, this change has killed the extremely thematic and fun build of spreading procs with your pesitlence, like legit the most thematic combination of items and abilities in the game for zero benefit given she wasn't every overly strong even with full proc functionality.

[hexed falcon]

Yeah its been like that since EA. No proper tooltips on items. No explanations on mechanics and no chat logs so you cant even check yourself how everything works numbers-wise.

I have million questions about mechanics and noone can answer them with certainty.

[unborn nebula]

I will offer, if you do have any questions about mechanics, not to toot my own horn, but I have done EXTENSIVE testing of everything in this game so if you have any burning ones I can answer them for you lol. Though yes to your point you should not need to rely on getting answers from random people in the community over tooltips and in game knowledge on mechanics.

[hexed falcon]

Well my questions are rather complicated ones about interactions between items and characteristics.
For example 1st one that comes into my head right now: how does proc damage calculated? Lets say you are playing feng mao. You have 50 physical power from items and 10 PP from your passive Q. One of the items is aegis of agawar that also gives you bonus PP from your health. Another item is omen that deals 30 +10% PP on proc. Those 10% will be calculated from base? Or from base+items? Will it include bonus from agawar? Bonus from passive Q?

[unborn nebula]

In that case the physical power is all one static layer that add to total physical power. The proc is then caluclated based on that physical power, so it is calculated based on items, base phsyical power and the amount added by q. The only time it is different is if the scaling specifically excludes base, like some hp scalings are built hp only not max health.

[hexed falcon]

Cool thanks. But the problem is still here - i have tons of such questions and nowhere to get answers except guys like you 🙂 There should be thorough description, like database about stats, items and other stuff that you can read in main menu.

[unborn nebula]

Patch announced no changes, bumping for visibility and the vain hope of dev sight on this.

[stark stream]

It's a balance issue for some heroes for passives to count as abilities while others it makes sense on

For example if mori passive counted as an ability she would get 5 seconds of megacosm for hitting one ability

Drongo passive procing mega, entropy and multiplying from nuclear would also not be healthy

[unborn nebula]

Thats literally how it used to work and megacosm was WILDLY better in the past when that functioned, and she was not even close to being to strong. Even if they have to do reciprical nerfs, they need to do it, because as it stands now the solution is really really bad

[stark stream]

Its likely better if passives don't count as abilities for items in 99% of cases which very specific exceptions

[unborn nebula]

We have literal proof that is not the case, because again, that is how it used to function and characters like morigesh were not even close to being to strong, you are arguing for a solution to a problem that does not exist, and one that both makes readability and understanding of the game DRASTICALLY worse and has removed some of the most thematic and interesting builds we used to have

[stark stream]

If I'm not mistaken Kallari, Skylar and maybe kwang are the only ones that count as abilities which Skylars would function fine if it didn't, kallari could be an exception of it works fine as not an ability and kwangs is just an on-hit so it's fine without being an ability

[stark stream]

Mori is incredibly strong rn

[unborn nebula]

Yes which is independent of items working with her passive, because again, it used to work that way and she was not as strong as she is now... If they need to nerf her, to make the change then do so, but the solution right now is terrible, we have a mix of ones that work and don't work with no way of knowing which do or which are simply bugged, because they are making a ton of random exceptions despite it not being an issue ever in the past

[stark stream]

The issue is they can't normalize it due to the drongo changes as well

since magic drongo is going to exist he can't have access to items like mega, entropy on his passive

[unborn nebula]

yes they can lol, drongo used to do the exact same thing and was not overly strong, all they need to do is nerf it if the change is to strong, magic drongo is not even going to be close to being strong regardless

[stark stream]

It would be if mega and entropy worked due to interactions with lunaria and his healing augment

[unborn nebula]

If it is, which it would not be, they can nerf his kit to compensate, but the solution right now is way way worse and is just lazy balancing

[stark stream]

I'm just explaining design reasons it would be hard a large portion of heroes would need major changes and maybe even play styles killed. (It would be like making all ults unstoppable or adding an augment system you have to rework an insane amount of stuff to slot in the change or new system, a lot of the time too much to justify it)

[stark stream]

Which is why I say make no passives count as abilities for items

[unborn nebula]

Again, and I don't know why you keep just ignoring this, this is literally how it worked in the past and there were not any issues with characters like mori being overly strong, you are making a design problem that does not exist in reality

Megacosm used to have Noxia passive and way better stats as well as being max health burn and not built health and it still was not breaking mori with her passive procing it, problem items like Mega are signifigantly nerfed compared to the past it would not be the issue you are imagining it is

[stark stream]

Moris damage numbers were insane back then and the reason she wasn't in the meta was due to her being countered by the other meta champs and not having ways to function in the game. But I agree it would be cool to work that way again but moris kit no longer supports it counting as an ability as well as the current item system with entropy existing (Entropy would have to be removed purely due to mori interactions)

[unborn nebula]

entropy is a hilariously bad item that would be wildly below damage rates than other proc items on mori...

[stark stream]

Entropy is getting buffed and it's a core item in the healing augment fey build it's a misunderstood item not a bad item

Every single tick of mori passive would apply the entropy damage plus ever ability hit it would do insane damage

If entropy procs on mori passive it's an extra 21% ratio on all of her abilities

[unborn nebula]

which again it used to and it was not broken lol, its only 21% if you are calculating it out as spread between each ability full duration of her passive, which is not a realistic scenario, in a poke scenario it is wildly less on rate than a combustion which also has much better stats in regards to boosting her entire kits damage

[stark stream]

Entropy is per ability as well

So it can stack on itself unlike mega

[unborn nebula]

its not per ability its per damage instance, which mega would also refresh per damage instance, and again, and I cannot stress this enough, they both used to do it and were not broken on mori, her meta builds were always consistently high flat pen burst builds with wraith leggings to abuse her burst pattern of mark run through hive mark ult, and that would not change with this change, at most it would make some very niche items that are hilariously bad in general like entropy better, which is what we call item diversity. Its not good that every mage builds the same, its fine if entropy is strong on mori, because other items are much worse, thats ideally how the game should function, but instead we have very pidgeon holed builds per class and this issue is part of it

[stark stream]

The cooldowns is per instance per ability

If I have 2 dot abilities hitting same hero at same time both apply entropy

For example gadget seek and destroy and gadget Tesla dome

[unborn nebula]

which again, is not an issue lol because its a really bad item, like you can test it yourself on gadget right now because it works with both of those abilities, it is much less damage than an item like combustion, its still one of the weakest proc items, and specifically because you seem really concerned about mori, she doesn't have 2 dot abilities so that is an entirely moot point lol

[stark stream]

Again it's not just mori it's drongo you have to think about too

[unborn nebula]

and if drongo mage with really bad items becomes super meta, they can nerf him, but that is both not an excuse to keep bad mechanics in the game nor is it a realistic concern in the first place

[stark stream]

But your argument is just mori and it's a consistency thing you have to focus on all heroes current and future

Which in the current state of things it's better just to not have passive count as abilities unless they spawn an ability for example fey

Based on your argument Skylar would of never come out

She was the reason an item got reworked and another removed

Wait no she caused 3 item reworks and 1 item removal just to add her

[unborn nebula]

No im using mori as an example because you brought up mori originally and seemed really concerned with her, also that is simply not true, is Aurora demolishing lobbies because her passive works with items? No obviously not, nor did Mori when she had full proc functionality. Skylar has nothing to do with talking about having item proc functionality for passives

[stark stream]

But she has to do with the idea of systems changing to fit heroes balance

And sometimes its better to change a system then it is to change a hero

[unborn nebula]

they didn't change the system they nerf specific items lol she still has the exact same thing that was causing issues, the ability to hyperbeam on hit procs, they just nerfed her kit and items until it was not an issue. If you want to relate skylar then what it really means is that instead they should have just removed the ability for her beam to proc on hits, which they didn't. And again, you keep saying these things without aknowledging that the change was not to nerf Mori because she was to strong lol, she in fact has become stronger since the change due to kit changes, she was not breaking these items by proccing them with her passive in the same way that skylar was. We even have the exact functionality to nerf problem items if they need it in game, like splitting dot and normal slow for dreambinder. But instead they have decided that specific characters with zero in game information showing this, will just not work with item procs, but others will and the ones chosen weren't even over performing due to those interactions.

[stark stream]

Lhawk and Storm breaker moved to zap instead of basic count because of her

Just to be clear my stance is to normalize passives but normalize them not as abilities as they are not affected by ability haste