#I Think Revenant's Ultimate Needs a Rework.

127 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

teal copper
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As stated above. I've also posted this on the reddit thread but am putting it in here as I tend to see more discussion the discord rather than on the reddit. Other opinions are welcome but as with the discord rules, it'd be nice to see actual discussion.

TLDR; I think Revenant's ult needs to be reworked to align with the fact he has no movement options outside of his blink. Make it harder for people to escape when he's singled them out in his ult but also give incentives so there's more thought for the singled out player to decide between run or fight.

I understand that the go too answer with Revenants ultimate is to just "play around the blink," but its honestly just tiresome when talking about one of the slowest (if not THE SLOWEST) hero in the game in terms of speed. Especially when lane phase has ended it becomes very hard to keep track of playing around blinks some times. There are way too many times when I've felt exceptionally confident in securing a kill but someone was able to blink away shortly after I ult them and there's just no feasible way to chase that kill without really risking my life, especially when Revenant doesn't get a similar bonus to Zarus when Zarus can lock down multiple targets while getting that buff for each kill inside his arena.

I don't even think you need to change much (outside perspective, I have no idea how hard this would be to implement in game behind the scenes) but I think Revenants Ult would do well to act as a "stun" for the duration of the timer. Let the enemy hero move around but make it so they can't blink. It fits well with Revenants theme too. The bounty hunter has caught their bounty and now its a duel to collect the reward.

Perhaps that's too powerful so you could lessen the time in the ultimate by a second or two. Or (and this is my preferred option) you could make it so that there's an incentive for the enemy that got pulled into the shadow realm to fight, like if they kill the Revenant that pulled them, they get a smaller portion of the gold bonus than that Revenant would have- kind of like cashing in their own bounty.

Only reason I bring this up is, as a Revenant main, my biggest issue has nothing to do with the obvious skill gap but instead that time and time again, regardless of team fight or smart use, when I use my ult on someone the quickest response I see is using a movement ability to get as far away as possible. Its not a smart outplay, it's just instinct and it feels really rough when I practically say goodbye to the coolest part of my kit just to not earn anything and be out of lane or a fight for 6-8 seconds. Im a bounty hunter but when I've finally got you cornered, I never actually do and that sucks.

keen lance
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@hollow dragon

cyan badger
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His ultimates already strong af.......

I think silvers suggestion is more interesting remove reloads make it auto reloads only

replace with skill that let's you iframe in and out of relm for short time unable to move during. Would add more skill expression to the hero and would allow him not just be a stat check hero

teal copper
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Revenants ult is strong early game but also one of his biggest skill curves. It becomes a different conversation as the game goes on depending on how that early game is played. If you can snowball with that ult, I fully agree it's strong as hell but if that Rev can't pull off the early game they need then you are looking at the easiest and slowest pick of the century.

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I don't want him to be stronger, but I do want it to be more interesting. Even if you still allow for the blink, I'd love for the player I single out to have an incentive to not run so it doesnt feel like Im wasting my ult sometimes

cyan badger
cyan badger
teal copper
cyan badger
teal copper
cyan badger
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Your getting rewarded already so I'm confused why you want to give the enemy rewards for fighting you...... like what

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If you waste your ult you waste your ult happens to everyone sometimes time it better and track blink cooldowns

teal copper
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I already mentioned in my main post that I do understand thats the main response. I get that argument and I dont disagree with it. Why, however, is giving the option of actual decision making for the singled out party so outlandish? Im only getting the reward on my ult if I get the kill. I dont get it if the timer runs out or if I die. Most of the time that timer runs out and thats boring. But if someone felt confident to try and "cash in their own bounty," would that really not add some spice to the gameplay and ability?

It would make things more interesting but at this point I'm just saying the same thing in different ways. I think we just agree to disagree on this one, Real

cyan badger
teal copper
# cyan badger Bro if the timers running out when your ultiing your either using it on the wron...

You know, thats fair enough. But you keep dodging around this bit- why is giving the person a Revenant ults incentive to stay and fight back inherently bad. Ignore the other changes I thought would be good and just keep that one part. Okay, Revs ult is strong then does that not work as a sort of nerf? Why is the suggestion of an incentive to stay and fight a bad idea? Would you really be so annoyed with getting ulted and thinking you can win that duel, kill the revenant and get the gold bonus they were hoping to get? Just humor me on that. What is so bad about having an incentive to the choice you make?

cyan badger
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But again why are you nerfing rev by giving enemy more stuff for killing him FengMaoFacepalm

teal copper
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Because I think that playing on that risk v reward factor would make the character more interesting to play. In a game where most people are complaining about heroes not being unique enough, I think it would be a fun change that makes interactions with Revenant far more engaging. They asked for rework ideas. I dont want a stronger Rev in the end, I want one thats more interesting to play and I feel the same with all of the heroes. Sure, buffs and nerfs are nice but a more engaging identity does better imo when looking at what to rework in a character

I answered your bit. You still havent really answered mine aside from asking another question in return

teal copper
untold patrol
# cyan badger His ultimates already strong af....... I think silvers suggestion is more inter...

Nah, lining up the 4th shot is very important with rev, also keeping loaded when you need to too. Imo do away with reload, make reload ability so it just cycles straight to the super crit shot and give it a cooldown. So his super shot becomes an ability but he autos same speed etc.

maybe to reduce the cooldown of this specific ability build attack speed, maybe he could be then marginally increase his fire rate with speed too.

Overall his DPS could be the same but you have more control over your super crit

cyan badger
teal copper
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Can you link to this? I'd love to see another suggestion

cyan badger
cyan badger
teal copper
untold patrol
# cyan badger I don't like that either because he's still just stst checking what silver sugge...

Removing reload and having auto reload only removes alot of skill in shot counting and tallying your damage. Plus rev will get caught out with no shots all the time, like if I'm last hitting I try to keep loaded and time my shots so I'm running at enemy for poke damage around shot 3 or 4. But if there is no manual reload but still a reload mechanic then all enemy duo has to do is wait on Beat and dive on him mid reload because you know it's coming, he can't control it anymore

cyan badger
untold patrol
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Not at all, revs always count their shots or at least should be. If enemy counts your shots now they can accurately time a large vulnerability window or call jungle gank. The reload helps keep you ready for a fight. This would Nerf him into the ground. I've got like 300 games on rev

cyan badger
untold patrol
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You can get distance using his slow. You either use your mark for damage with autos, or use it before q to instantly stack the slow. It's more powerful than drongos who also only has ult and a small slow as evasion.

The absolute worst thing on rev is getting caught mid reload and taking control away from that would make it way worse. He already has the challenge of no attack speed, locking you into no control sounds a bit much, especially in team fight. Imagine hiding round a corner approaching an inevitable team fight, but you haven't reloaded. You're gonna have to fire off until you reload, potentially giving away a flank or simply missIng out on a ton of damage. Or if you're firing off your shots on the way, the movement penalty delays you

cyan badger
untold patrol
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You have yet to make a single positive argument for locking him into auto reload so I'm done pointing out the glaring flaws. All the best

cyan badger
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thats an entire more useful skill

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rather then doing a basic function like reloading

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crazy how you dont want that

untold patrol
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Because I don't want to be locked into an unavoidable reload with no power except crippling my movement speed to adjust and becoming extremely predictable in the process. It's definitely not ideal to have an ability as reload but if he doesn't have it then it's damage crippling in many situations. It also increases your crit damage by the way, it's the second ability I max out

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If that reload wasn't there id say get rid of the reload mechanic entirely

mental panther
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When I read sentences like this, I get the impression that people want their favorite character to counter the entire roster.

Instead of forcing the enemy to make mistakes during the fight, to waste blink, ult or any other useful ability as early and at the least appropriate moment as possible, you just need to forbid them from using it. lol. Because it's easier.

hollow dragon
# cyan badger single argument is other games do it and having reload take up an ability slot i...

Disagree. I think reloading should be part of his identity. Decide when to reload instead of being forced to the 4 shot pattern.
But instead make the 4 th shot more interesting. Not just statwise.
Give it 100% increased crit chance instead of being guarantee crit hit, this would go well with new items
Or give it double on hit effects
You name it, there is a couple of ways to make it interesting and discourage someone from reloading early, but sometimes you will still want to reload early.

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When i read OPs Post, the only thing i saw OP complain about is that all other heroes have to much mobility, which kinda sucks
I totally agree.
I will not support the fact that everyone has a Blink, it is just not balanced and unfair.
"But you have a Blink yourself" is a stupid argument.
So if i start a fight on the middle of the Duo lane with my Ult and we both have a Blink, we would just shift the entire fight towards their Tower, cuz thats how strong blinks are.
Now after i get the kill i am completely out of position and a free kill for the enemies

Sure i can not blink after and try to get them next time, But now they will just not fight and be completely passive. Its literally no fun sometimes cuz of the blinks

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So all i read in OPs Post is "Remove Blinks from the Game"

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And i agree

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Blinks are just mood killers

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Instead of making the Game interesting with fights

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they Remove those interesting fights

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People will go back to pussy lane farming

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Sure thats not happening everytime, but still.

mental panther
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Also, what is this desire to average all heroes? The hero has a blink? Unfair, we need to remove it! The hero doesn't have a blink? Unfair, give him a blink!
It seems to me that all this talk is more likely due to a lack of skill.
The only thing Revenant lacks is a permanent magazine indicator around the crosshair, so you can always see how many rounds you have left.

hollow dragon
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thats how you balance stuff

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is what you are saying

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Just give everyone ** the exact same ** Blink ability

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Instead of considering their kits

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thats lazy

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and just not fair

mental panther
hollow dragon
cyan badger
mental panther
queen gazelle
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Keep the thread on topic please

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This is about revenant

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Not blinks

cyan badger
# mental panther Well, actually, it sounds like a good solution, if it doesn't take more than 1 s...

honestly you could replace his mark with it instead if you really want to keep reload but ya it would make him more tied to the rift identity. almost like how grim shield blocks 1 attack it would let rev port to the other dimension for a split 2nd to dodge something. he could do the same while in ult but ports him to real world at risk of someone being there to cc him and completely rip him from his ult. I think it would be interesting to play around.

queen gazelle
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There is a thread already about that

mental panther
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It would be cool, actually, if Rev could mark multiple targets and take them into his ult, where they move at 25-50% speed and just shoot them, but it's too imba imo

untold patrol
# mental panther Yes, there is no point in mark, actually

Mark does a strong slow if you use it with q. If you use it for autos it gives 12 percent extra damage. Hit that at the right time and it gives you such a boost, final crit can hit over 1k. Infact, my highest is 1790, not including any on hit effects

cyan badger
untold patrol
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Slow every hit? 12percent damage every hit? Seems kinda op

cyan badger
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bro the mark is a waste of an ability slot if you dont agree with that thats fine but thats what we agree with. could be used for a way cooler skill

mental panther
untold patrol
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I think the slow in his kit is important. Relying on random slow idk bout that

mental panther
molten imp
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Revenant's issue is not his ultimate, It has use cases where it can deny an obj/jungler hunt from the other team, allow him to stat check the other ADC, and also allow him to take out big teamfighting ultimates (one example of this is gideon). It also allows him to snowball and can easily force blinks, keep in mind it has a way lower CD than blinks do.

It’s that if he is strong he is unfun to play against so he’s either going to be strong and people won’t have fun or he’ll be weak and see minimal play. It’s due to the idea that he has to have such strong scaling in order to compete due to the locked Shots/Ammo concept and fantasy Revenant strives to achieve on top of the idea that his abilities “Play” themselves which could be changed by making his Mark simply a skillshot in my opinion but this idea makes him more engaging anyways so fuck it 😄 .

The thing that I had proposed which was the way he was in his paragon concept is that he is able to perform a “Spot dodge” which takes him into the netherrealm.

This ability would look something like this

Vanish
“For x amount of time phase into the Netherrealm when in the overworld. Revenant gains (x,x,x,x,x) damage (could be % could be flat amount it depends if you want this to be strong early or strong later) towards his next shot if he dodged an ability this way.

For x amount of time phase into the Overworld when in the Netherrealm. Revenant can shoot a single shot this time.”

Very short sweet and to the point, It would have to be long enough to get a single shot off, keep in mind this wouldn’t really matter too much outside of his ultimate except for being an evasion tool that allows him to reload in safety or damage amp his next shot, (not a full reload until later on in the game or he has attack speed built obviously) or give the damage boost either or to be honest.

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What the alternate version of the ability allows is for him to use his ult in more ways than simply removing an enemy from the fight, and if it was deemed abusive or unfun to play against you can make it so that it phases BOTH him and the hero he ulted out for that time (This would be jarring if you were not the rev player imo) Theres other ways you can balance it to make it fun to play into as well.

Another thing I wanted to talk about is that a manual reload is not as skill expressive as an automatic one that happens after a set time. Jhin from league of legends operates on this automatic reload system and it doesn’t allow him to walk around with a stat check bullet 24/7 like revenant does mid-late and stat check everyone for free it requires forethought into every engagement as well as allows counterplay as opposed to Revenant having a nuke loaded whenever he wants, it also takes away from the enemy perspective where they can count the shots, all they have to go off of if he has a shot loaded is his Gun/Hand being Red, which is not easily identifiable in split second engagement starts.

Revenant should also have a bar underneath his health bar which displays which shot he’s on, for ENEMY and ALLY alike. It just makes sense from a clarity perspective and it’s something he’s lacking at the moment.

I can understand people being against removing revenants manual reload but the shots would still be an important part of his playstyle and having a manual reload that doesn’t even act like a Gears of War active reload is a pretty lame part of an ability.

This would also allow his passive to be on his AUTOs similar to Sparrow and not on a reload ability, it would also allow you to tie that 4th shot missing HP scaling into the spot dodge, which would make him more rewarding to play if you play him well. (But having the opposite if you play him poorly) Which imo the game needs more of but thats just me YA_AkoshShrug

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^ That last part would also allow for some crit changes towards his 4th shot to make it more rewarded regardless of if you play him well versus poorly but I like the playing him well option more, up for discussion I suppose

Plus you can play MORE into the 4th shot if you use it as a counter tool immediately after an ability was spot dodged, this allows for more strategic use of it to increase its scaling or damage per shot

Just an idea to float around YA_Nod

Another important thing that would have to be identified with a change like this is how AoE/DoT abilities would interact with the Damage amp and if it would only be a % or it would simply end the spot dodge early (or it could just NOT work with DoT abilities that use an AoE since it would be too easy to waltz into this 40 dmg tick and dodge the next one for a damage Amp)

It would also have to be looked at into how you'd allow Spell Slasher items to interact with an ability like this, as well as items like Ashbringer (which i dont think would be meta on him ANYWAYs with something like this but it would open up his build path a hell of a lot more than what it is currently)

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Whether or not the Predecessor playerbase can even pilot something like this is ALSO up for debate handlerHehe

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molten imp
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Then you have access to animations like this that you can make for him which would fit that bounty hunter aesthetic more.

OR you can do one where hes holding his hat looking away from the shot shooting from the hip. Whichever one is deemed better I suppose

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smoky lynx
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Yeah I think making mark a skillshot would be really good

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and giving him a spot dodge would be orgasmic

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I would really miss the reloading though I think its very under rated as a tool

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for csing especially

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But i like it

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he is a balance problem inherently

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giving him bonus damage for dodging an ability would be very rewarding and skill expressive

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and it would incorporate his realm into his gameplay more

untold patrol
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The ding is audible and definitely tells you nuke inbound.

molten imp
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You do not hear the ding if he loads it out of vision

untold patrol
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Same as any hero. Doing things out of vision is part of the game

molten imp
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The feels bad aspect of revenants kit when he’s strong is that he walks up, presses r on the target (usually an adc) shoots them once Qs and shoots them again before the Q even finishes.

This is not skill expressive, but you seem to think walking around with a single shot is onionthink

untold patrol
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If we adding signs to heroes then should they add it for zarus stacks?

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The shot is only powerful if you're low hp, otherwise it's a stronger crit. If you miss it you're basically throwing. If any other adc misses a shot it doesn't matter. That's the thing, it's a way higher risk reward.

molten imp
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This argument i’d say is fine if the R doesn’t give you a guaranteed way of hitting the target which is why it is a feels bad thing in the abuse cases when he’s strong

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What I’m suggesting is not a nerf for revenant, it’s a way of making his kit balanceable and fun outside of not having these weird dips in strong/weak times.

He has had the exact same meta build path for how long now? Something gotta change my guy and it’s not just numbers

On top of more clarity for teammates and enemies alike.

untold patrol
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Same could be said about alot of ability combos tho? Murdock trap you can combo a global snipe.

molten imp
untold patrol
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But still an example. Rev has his one gimmick ability combo that makes the reload and no attack speed worth it, that's the super crit. You clearly understand that is literally his only threat and if you're not ahead and catch him after a reload he loses every adc 1v1 late game.

you're going up against murd, You understand his snipe is a threat, so you don't back or stand still in his vision. Same with rev. Don't be close to him when he has ult. Save your movement for that. That's it. Countered. If you get cc by enemy supp, then you're support should of been better. Grim can 2 auto you, slow you so you can't out space him then ult you ded around the same time revs in full swing. Undodgeable.

As for meta builds? ADCs barely have any build difference across the board, but imo rev is only ADC that can get value out of Solaris and malady.

If they made him just auto same pace then reload only to load the super crit then this would solve all your problems with it. If you see him reloading you know it's coming and can counter maybe only give it a limited time it can be loaded, like a few seconds, then it unloads and goes on cooldown, like a 1 auto stim. Maybe instead of just getting critical damage boost, make attack speed boost it instead.

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Would give you control and counter play and also make his autos more friendly to newer players while keeping some of his signature things like reload.

Imo newer players struggle with Cs and rev is probably the hardest to CS with. Especially when your support is just perma shoving. The reload is a big part of that and it probably affects him and his farm at lower ranks.

frosty echo
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Rev was problem in paragon, and hes a problem in Predecessor, in the exact same way, where his strength curve and how "fun" he was to play as or play into was all over the place based on him being too strong and snowbally or too weak and overly reliant on snowballing

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This isn't about items, or numerical changes

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that can be changed easily

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its a failed kit design that should NOT have been preserved in Pred

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Silver is completely spot on

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Maybe his idea isn't the right solution or rather, not the solution Omeda would want, but he's identified the correct issues.

untold patrol
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Making his super crit an ability stim with an obvious wind up fixes his complaint about it tho

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Don't need to count shots if you see him load it

frosty echo
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at the end of the day dude, its just a bad kit. it is allowed to be that simple

untold patrol
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Yes that's why we spitballing ideas, no?

frosty echo
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Its overly simplistic even by paragon kit design standards which is saying something

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the worst kits in paragon are mostly around the mages (Howie, gideon, gadget), since 3 of them were mostly the same, identity wise, but rev is close to that bad, and he was released years after those mentions were designed.

untold patrol
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How is Howie's kit bad?

frosty echo
untold patrol
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Yeah I thought you meant new

frosty echo
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it was just an aoe with a small burst at the end

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No, the redesign is fantastic by comparison

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and anyone who thinks otherwise is just knowledge diff

untold patrol
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Yeah his old ult was certain death

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For Howie

frosty echo
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or, if you had a dekker ult, the enemy lol

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it was like a lower skilled version of the Odin, Vulcan ult combo from smite

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but anyways

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my point in this is just that rev is probably one of the ones who should have gotten a minor redesign

untold patrol
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I think his ult is fine tho. But giving him a movement ability or a dodge would make him too op. And that is coming from a rev main

spiral pagoda
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Any team oriented game that has a “run the 1s” move is literally strong asf all the time. I don’t care what you say

smoky lynx
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I would like a minor rework but not to his ult