Match Making

[tulip perch]

bro's just here to whinge 🤷‍♂️

[eager saffron]

Just make a Blogpost at this point. Would be easier to follow

[warped imp]

Most of it can be skimmed to be fair, and it’s also multi messages

Typed

Out

Like

This

That results in multiple “comments”

[viscid condor]

i do be doing that

[warped imp]

Yes you do, also you gotta calm down a tad my gamer 😭

[viscid condor]

perhaps

[plain plaza]

But this is not true. Ive been in same team with bronze and plat.

[marsh oak]

If your ingame name is the same as your discord name, show me the game. I've just quickly looked through all 101 of your ranked games on OC and it doesn't look like you've played any ranked games with a plat player in your lobby

[plain plaza]

dude i dont want to search hundreds of my games just to prove my words to some noname on internet.

if you dont believe me i dont really care. but ive been in same team with bronze and plat while i was silver.

[marsh oak]

101 ranked games and it only took me 5 minutes because there isnt a single ranked game lobby with a platinum bro. Maybe you're thinking of a "standard" game

[vague saffron]

@seismic oh hes gone

[rare quarry]

not true. I have been with platinum and bronze in the same team. and this graphic would contradict shedz statements

[pallid sable]

the graphic indicates who you can queue with, not who youre matched with...

[plain plaza]

So 3 divisions difference on queue is okay, thats what omeda thinks?

As for me i think 1 division maximum difference for match should be available.

It is bad matchmaking even with 1 div diff, not talking about bronze vs plat...

Right now the game feels unplayable.

[plain plaza]

https://omeda.city/matches/ea485776-d31f-471f-a745-d273810aa9ab

[marsh oak]

I stand corrected, I was looking at Chrikov on OC. I havent seen bronze and platinum across any of my games nor on that profile

[slim wave]

3 divisions is fine yeah
Its how it is in most game too

[plain plaza]

So now you see that you were wrong?

[plain plaza]

BS. Competitive games doesnt allow such a difference for ranked.

[dim carbon]

Ah I think a saying is getting lost in translation here.

When someone says they stand corrected, they are acknowledging they were wrong.

[slim wave]

Valorant allowed 3 divisions apart to duo queue with each other
Even further apart for 5 stacks with harder games and reduced vp gain but that's a seperate issue

[graceful scaffold]

I just want to say it makes me happy to see a lot of folks in this thread understanding the system and being helpful to those that have questions.

we use a system very similar to League (and many other games). The reason you don't see discrepancies in League as much as you might here is because a very large portion of our Ranked player base is still new to ranked, where League has a far more stabilized audience. The smaller the number of players who are new to rank, the less likely you are to see those underrated players even though they exist all the same.

That's all, back to watching football

[vague saffron]

Oh fuck

I forgot about Thursday night

[jolly cairn]

Plat 3. That guy was probably on the border

[rare quarry]

the graphic doesn't show anything related to internal mmr. We had here plenty of messages about rank, vp, and internal mmr. Either the graphic is wrong or jshredz doesn't know how his match making works.

[sacred ice]

no it isnt

[lyric dock]

Why are my VP points lower in ranked? I have never been AFK or had a disconnection while playing ranked, why am I penalized? Teammates get 34 VP and I only get 17 VP?

[pallid sable]

its explained above

basically you are at a higher rank that what your internal mmr is

thus you gain less VP

[lyric dock]

How can I increase my mmr?

[lyric dock]

How can I increase my mmr?

[pallid sable]

win games

[lyric dock]

In pvp o ranked or both ?

[rare quarry]

according the shredz, you must maintain a +50 % win ratio.

I have 54% and lose 17 VP and gain 15 VP... works like a charm

[rare quarry]

ranked only

[rare quarry]

pvp and ranked have separate internal mmr

[lyric dock]

Where do I see or can I see my MMR in just ranking?

Ranked*

[pallid sable]

you dont

[lyric dock]

Ok thanks

[lyric dock]

Does it influence the kda?

[pallid sable]

Win loss only

[dawn bolt]

VP should be our mmr in ranked mode

[slim wave]

With the current way they do ranked games, it wouldn't work too well

[dawn bolt]

its the best and simple way to improve the matchmaking in ranked mode

[plain plaza]

This or just make mmr visible so noone will care about vp as it should be now in the state of the ranked games. Because vp now reflects only grind time.

[dawn bolt]

i will enjoy more this game if they change this

SA servers will be great too

[slim wave]

With the current way they do ranked games, it wouldn't work too well

[plain plaza]

If they will fix their broken matchmaking it will be fine.

[slim wave]

Matchmaking itself is good lmfao

[plain plaza]

Its worst it ever been here for 1.5 years im playing pred

The only time MM was worse than now is when i got matched against grandmasters while i was bronze

About a year ago

[slim wave]

Ranked mm? Ranked hasn't been out for most of ur 1.5 years
And its better than it was, especially at the start, and it'll keep getting better as more people play and get to their correct ranks/mmr's

[slim wave]

You mean in standards

[green chasm]

That was a casual matchmaking. Which they had a loose MMR. You had no rank until the release of ranked MM.

[plain plaza]

I know. Im talking about MM in general. Ranked mm now is as bad as was casual a year ago.

[rare quarry]

the rank has nothing to do with mm. rank only impacts how much vp you win or lose, apparently with whom you can party up. mm selecting players to team up looks on internal mmr number.

mm based solely on internal mmr is as good as guessing if you are a good citizen by looking at your social insurance number.

[green chasm]

You lost me with the relevancy in correlation to their statement and mine. GG.

[green chasm]

Idk what games you guys play where pub matches are even. I went into T8 trying to relax against what I was assuming would be greenies after I hit blue to work on strings and caught so many Emporers it was nuts.

[sacred ice]

what ??? why would that be good ? now im wondering

[dawn bolt]

I'm making suggestions, because the way it is, no one is satisfied. How can a low elo player play against diamonds or paragons sometimes? The player doesn't have enough knowledge and practical experience to play with this type of high elo player. Using the sum of team points through mmr doesn't work, maybe using VP will improve it.

this game is very fun but the ranked matching destroys the possibility of the game growing

for me its the most important thing to change in next update

[slim wave]

that only happens if the low elo player has the mmr of diamonds and paragons
which only happens if the low elo player is at a similar skill level as them
which just means that theyre at the right skill level for it, but they havent played enough games to get there yet

[dawn bolt]

If there is an elo to demonstrate the player's level in the ranked so that the matches are fairer and more competitive, I believe that my suggestion can help. Even because many matches today are neither fair nor competitive for the most part.

the elo system need to be respected

[pallid sable]

This is the same system that league uses and many other games

The only reason why the “issues” are more prevalent here is cos not everyone has levelled out yet and a lot of players are still “new”

[dawn bolt]

today the system is not respected

[pallid sable]

As explained by jshredz above

[slim wave]

without placements, matchmaking solely on vp would lead to bad matchmaking and worse games
with how the system is set up, the game needs mmr to have any sort of sbmm

especially at lower ranks

with people with fewer games played

[pallid sable]

#1282499872469159998 message

[dawn bolt]

I do not agree

[slim wave]

If a person with a high amount of skill started playing ranked, they would be put against people who are actually a bronze level of skill
This high skill person would be much much better than every enemy, making them win the game in a very one-sided, making the game quality much worse. This would continue as they go through ranks, making many games un fun to play for the enemies, until they reach their correct rank.
With mmr, they start to play against other very good people much earlier on, letting more games be more fair for more people

[dawn bolt]

The right thing to do would be to start ranked and play about 5 or 10 games and after finishing the game, it would give you an elo compatible with your performance.

ranked its ranked, normal game is normal game

ranked: competition, normal game: training for ranked

[pallid sable]

Did u read the message I linked and the other messages from jshredz?

[dawn bolt]

If the ranked system is not good, it's only a matter of time before players give up on the game.

[pallid sable]

But as explained in that message. It’s only not good cos people haven’t played enough…

[unique aspen]

Perhaps they need a different system that isn’t contingent on this then

[pallid sable]

But this is how all new systems start

Every new ranking system starts like this

If you can find or create a system that will more accurately match make people based on skill you’ll make billions

Leagues system started like this too. In fact jshredz has even said above that they’re using leagues system. You don’t hear many complaints about it now? Why? Cos it’s had time to balance out. As per my linked message above

[unique aspen]

Most ranked modes I’ve played have placements. This game feels like gold is so easily attainable that it’s just ELO hell. Which should be more like silver if anything

[pallid sable]

You can’t do placements with the first run through of a ranked system. Placements start afterwards

[unique aspen]

Just another notch in the belt of issues with this game. And there are so many it’s hard to keep track of. Unsurprising the Gamescon surge fizzled within a month

[pallid sable]

Once everyone has a baseline of where they are personally at then you can do placements

[pallid sable]

I mean it isn’t an issue. Jshredz has explained it so many times in this thread and how it works and why it works.

It’s only an issue for people who don’t know how it works

[unique aspen]

Lol

I see how it works for me. Play two games as carry where my teammates average over a death a minute. My support goes 0/11 and 0/12. My teammates average 9-10 deaths each. Not an issue tho, they just haven’t played enough so I take the L until they play more. Got it

If it makes people want to quit the game, perhaps it’s an issue

When queueing up feels like flipping a coin, perhaps it’s an issue

I don’t need to know how it works to know it works poorly

How many people actually get stuck in Bronze or Silver? As a % of player base? I imagine that number should be higher than it is

[pallid sable]

#1282499872469159998 message

#1282499872469159998 message

[dawn bolt]

agree

[pallid sable]

You need less than a 50% wr to get into gold

[unique aspen]

Perhaps people aren’t playing enough because the game isn’t fun and has no retention system lol

[pallid sable]

That’s another issue. Not one for this thread

[dawn bolt]

ranked is the problem fix this and the ppl will play more

I expect some kind of position from the company soon regarding updates on the ranked

New characters and visual changes to the map will not improve the ranked experience at all, which is what retains players.

i expect a battle pass soon too

[unique aspen]

Platinum+ rank should represent probably twice as much of the player base as it does. Right now Bronze + Silver + Gold are over 90% of the players

If it’s a playtime issue that is going to be compounded negatively by people (of higher skill) playing less because of the poor matchmaking. Because it’s not very fun to “play out” of crap ELO. So it works against them circularly in a sense

[dawn bolt]

agree

[slim wave]

placements dont work without a pre existing rank so base it off
the first iteration of a rank system wont have placement games because it has no previous rank of players to base it off of
you cannot expect a perfect ranked system the first time it comes out

[slim wave]

which is why mmr is necessary in these cases especially

[unique aspen]

Would it not establish the rank through the placement games?

[slim wave]

again, placement games dont work without something to base them off from

[unique aspen]

Something to base it off, i.e., previous data?

[slim wave]

i could get 5 low skill enemies for each of the 5 placement games, win all 5 of them, and get placed in paragon for example
then id be way out of my depth because actually good players are in paragon and id lose all my games and me and my teams wouldnt have fun

[slim wave]

yes, especially previous rank

[unique aspen]

Yeah but if you win your first 1/2/3 placements, you should be pushed into tougher competition by matches 4/5

I think you could easily do 10/20 placement matches to get there

[pallid sable]

How does that work if everyone is in placements

It doesn’t

Hence why u need a baseline first

Which is what this season 0 is doing

[unique aspen]

The people who win play the people who win until they lose?

[pallid sable]

And again

What every game has done in their initial ranked season

[unique aspen]

Over X matches

[unique aspen]

Really bold claim here talking in absolutes lol

[pallid sable]

Cos that’s exactly what’s happened

[slim wave]

Almost every game then lol

Sure u might find edge cases but the vast majority did it this way

[pallid sable]

Also again they’ve based it off leagues system. People don’t complain about MM there. Why? Cos they’ve allowed it time to put people where they should be

As per jshredz comment I linked

[unique aspen]

I don’t think it’s as simple as “time”

But that’s fine

Some of us can come back in a year or never and “time” will have passed lol

[pallid sable]

I mean if you don’t want to believe a senior ops dev then so be it

[unique aspen]

Why are there more players in gold than silver? That has nothing to do with time

[pallid sable]

Because ur mmr starts at gold? Gold is the average.

[unique aspen]

They aren’t gonna shit on themselves bud

[unique aspen]

Do I need to remind you that the literal CEO told us “well you guys play the game for hundreds of hours so how bad can it be?”

[unique aspen]

That’s part of the issue man

[pallid sable]

How

[unique aspen]

Also you start at Bronze?

[pallid sable]

U need to have an average lol

No ur VP starts at bronze

Ur mmr starts at gold

[unique aspen]

Show me a game where the ranked system has more gold players than silver lol

If gold is better than silver there should be less people in it

[pallid sable]

This is why I’d encourage you to read the thread cos all of this is explained thoroughly by the dev

[unique aspen]

Gold rank. We are matched by rank

[pallid sable]

Do u know what a bell curve is

[pallid sable]

No ur not

[unique aspen]

That’s impractical

[pallid sable]

Bro read the thread

[sacred ice]

ngl this whole thread makes me feel like im super smart, how can people not understand that there cant be placement matches if there was no previous season/playerbase

[unique aspen]

“Read the 2000+ comment thread”

[pallid sable]

Read jshredz comments then

That isn’t 2000

[sacred ice]

i mean sure there is if there cant be placement matches and so players have to start at bronze... so naturaly if the season progress more people will leave silver and get to other ranks

[pallid sable]

Bell curves exist for a reason

[sacred ice]

like that all isnt rocketsience boys

[unique aspen]

Yes do you see how there are less silver players than gold?

[pallid sable]

That’s literally what u asked for

[pallid sable]

.

[unique aspen]

Nice bell curve Omeda

[sacred ice]

broooooooo

you cant be serious

no way

[unique aspen]

So gold is average and 7% of the player base is above average

Seems good

[sacred ice]

follow me on this one ... we cant do placement matches cause we have nothing to place them against right ?

if this is true everyone has to start at bronze, right ?

so we all even out the more we play

[unique aspen]

Do you understand what ELO hell is as a concept?

[sacred ice]

what has that to do with anything ?

and no that is no real thing

[unique aspen]

Lmao

End of discussion broooooooo

[sacred ice]

pls explain what elo hell has to do with matchmaking

im courious

[unique aspen]

I’m good I wouldn’t want you to lose that “super smart” feeling

[slim wave]

i understand the concept
but with enough games, it doesnt exist

[sacred ice]

if you dont think the MM is rigged against YOU PERSONALY elohell does not exist

[unique aspen]

Enough games, enough players, and a good enough game to have the two aforementioned

Which we are 0 for 3 on lol

Good discussion anyway. I’m going back to staying out of here. Not worth it

[sacred ice]

i call brain diff sorry

[slim wave]

enough games is the only prerequisite

[sacred ice]

yes

[slim wave]

if u didnt wanna try to understand then whats the point in coming here

[unique aspen]

And how many is enough?

[unique aspen]

Very mature

[unique aspen]

Enough as an individual or enough as an entire player base?

[slim wave]

idk i havent counted
but the more u play, the more the only factor is skill

[slim wave]

individual

[sacred ice]

might be not mature but seems true non the less

[unique aspen]

I have played over 160 ranked games lol. Still match with people who have played 8 games

[unique aspen]

Show yourself out bud

[pallid sable]

Games played ≠ skill

[sacred ice]

then you belong in the 1300mmr range

wich is gold

[unique aspen]

This is not a place of understanding. It is a place of “this is why you’re wrong and we’re right.” If that isn’t clear based on the above idk how to make it clearer

[slim wave]

after 160 games you should be getting close to your actual rank
so maybe you do belong in the rank you are in

[slim wave]

no, this thread is a place of understanding
it has been explained many times in detail, just some people refuse to accept it for whatever reason and try and argue against it, despite it being clearly explained to them many many times

[unique aspen]

And yet anecdotally, I watch my teammates combine for 4-37 while I go 8/4

So it feels like a matchmaking issue

Does it not? When your teammates constantly underperform. Or underperform like a coin flip

[rare quarry]

If only other games would have solved ranked matches. People are so ignorant and uninspired about algorithms these days.

NBA games have ranked where players chose role and each team consists of 5 players. They don't tell people that ranked only works if whole community has played a million games.

StarCraft2 has 4v4 team games. Here also, the community wasn't told to play a million games until ranking mode generates higher quality matches.

I didn't play a million Rocket League games. Not a million Poker games. etc. etc. etc.

But Pred devs and mods keep insisting on telling everyone that a million ranked games since release are not enough to sort the player blase to allow the mm create a better quality matches.

jesus. cringing here

[slim wave]

wow youre so good?
idk what to tell you
youre not gonna have amazing teammates every game
but you also dont understand that you wont have bad teammates every game
the more games played, the more that your good and bad teammates balance out, leaving only your skill to decide your rank

[unique aspen]

My average PS is 134. My KDA is 4.17. Over 630+ matches

I’m not saying I’m a pro but I’m saying mm could be better lol

[sacred ice]

maybe you lack in other things

[unique aspen]

And I get it, maybe when the game is in a better place with actual retention features I’ll play enough

Or when I get a ps5 cause she is really dying on ps4 these days. Frames going into the toilet lol

If 160 games isn’t enough so be it lol

Good luck retaining people

[sacred ice]

i mean mobas just arent for everyone

[slim wave]

if youd even read a few of jshredz msgs, youd understand that mm is good smh
mm isnt some magical thing that can predict how a player will do in a certain game and just put them on a team based on that. what it does, is match up people based on an mmr value. and it does that very well from what jshredz has shown

[unique aspen]

I played MOBAs for longer than you’ve probably been alive lol

[sacred ice]

wow you got lol realy early bro 🙂

[unique aspen]

There is a reason our game has 5k players and Deadlock has 90k+

It’s not time or playing enough lol

[pallid sable]

This game doesn’t have 5k. Don’t spread misinformation

[unique aspen]

I’ll read them when I can

[pallid sable]

Keep the thread on topic also

[sacred ice]

it is tho, that and it beeing the first run of ranked

[unique aspen]

What’s it got bud? 8k?

[pallid sable]

This isn’t a place for

1. Arguments
2. Discussing things other than matchmaking

I’ve warned u already

[unique aspen]

Where’s the warning for the fella who is literally calling “brain diff”?

[pallid sable]

Here

[sacred ice]

im sorry

[unique aspen]

The reality is it’s very convenient to say things look good based on our data and we just need to play more. That doesn’t mean MM is good right now. It means we need to play more for it to be good. Anecdotally, when my whole friend group is experiencing this, it’s not isolated to just me. I’m sure if they comb chat logs they will see plenty of frustration. I get that’s just how these games are, and MM isn’t perfect. The top of this thread is literally 5 paragons vs 1. It’s not rocket science to say that could be more balanced

[sacred ice]

you are absolutly right here

thing is it cant be helped

[slim wave]

that is just confirmation bias
and again, mm isnt magical

[sacred ice]

by systems that exist right now

[unique aspen]

It’s not that black and white. By this logic all MM gets a pass and Elo/Mmr hell is only cognitive bias (which is what many devs will tell you)

Even if isn’t magical. If there are 6 paragon ranks in a game of 10, it helps the perception of balance if there are 3 on each team. Right?

[slim wave]

because it is cognitive bias lol
and it is that black and white tbh
mm is good. mmr is a different question

[unique aspen]

Versus 5v1 and it feels like you got stomped?

[slim wave]

the perception of it yes
but the mm doesnt use vp, it uses mmr, and in that game, i cant remember if jshredz showed it or not, but id imagine the mmr was balanced

[unique aspen]

For sake of clarity, most people will think of mm and mmr as one and the same. Saying mm is good and mmr is bad is very confusing. If mmr is bad, isn’t mm inherently worse?

Like we match players correctly based on incorrect values

No shit the matches will still feel bad if that’s the case?

[nimble barn]

elo hell isnt real buddy ive seen papaya grind to plat + on smurfs

[slim wave]

#1282499872469159998 message

you can see for this game the mmr is balanced

[slim wave]

thats a different issue tho
but the mmr values are generally pretty good tbh afaik

[slim wave]

yeah if youre complaining about elo hell, youre just in your correct rank tbh

[unique aspen]

Or, the alternative is other people aren’t in the correct rank, right?

Like someone who is paragon and climbing needs to come through gold

And that could prevent me from reaching Plat as easily

[sacred ice]

i mean all people in plat and above did it obviosly

[slim wave]

thats what mmr is for. to stop this happening
idek what ur arguing anymore

[nimble barn]

but that the exception tho thats not stopping u from reaching plat

[slim wave]

youve come to the same conclusion as me and as the current mm, while arguing otherwise

[nimble barn]

paragon players are less than 1% of the player base there wouldnt be enought to stop ur grind

[slim wave]

and there also a chance that the paragon player is on your team

giving you a win

[sacred ice]

but that then statisticly has to happen to all others who climb too right ?

[unique aspen]

I’m not arguing just discussing

I don’t even think I’m in ELO hell, not enough matches played to call it that

But there are matches where it’s just like holy fuck, why are my teammates this bad? And that’s the coin flip feeling before the match begins

[slim wave]

okay, then replace arguing with discussing in my sentence
my point still stands

[unique aspen]

And when those stack up it’s like wow this is insane

[nimble barn]

i thought i would climb into plat super easily cus i was diamond on old omeda i felt hard stuck in gold then i remembered it took me over 500 games to get to diamond if anything im beating my record

[slim wave]

thats just confirmation bias
you remember the bad games, but never the good ones

[sacred ice]

i mean i had to play against icameron tiwce yesterday, we cot curbstomped by him, jet i know its not bad MM cause he hasnt played a lot and is climbing

[unique aspen]

Maybe, but if there are more bad ones than good ones, that’s the whole premise of elo hell and being stuck

[sacred ice]

but why would that only work on your end

[unique aspen]

Yeah makes sense, I’d probably get to plat after enough time

[sacred ice]

if everyone is in elo hell wouldnt the better players still win more then the less skilled ... that all makes 0 sense

expt if you thhink there is bias against you personaly

[pallid sable]

What’s ur wr?

[slim wave]

but thats the thing. if youre in a lower rank than you should be, you will have more good games than bad games

[sacred ice]

WR is not everything players who are in Paragon a long time have winrates about 50%

[pallid sable]

Oh ik

It was more “there’s more bad games than good”

[sacred ice]

oh i get yoz

[unique aspen]

Lifetime it’s 51.6%

[unique aspen]

If you play enough, and if your teammates play enough?

[slim wave]

no, just if you play at all

[unique aspen]

Idk, there’s a degree of inconsistency

But I also play duo lane, played a lot of support, playing more carry now cause I have more control over the outcome

But again. I played 2 games as carry last night. Lost both. I’m 13/9/7 which isn’t great, my supports were 3/23/11. considerably worse

Obviously sample of 2 is too small, but feels like this happens in waves

[pallid sable]

Then there cannot be “more bad games than good” (ik this is lifetime but my point still stands)

[unique aspen]

I would love to see MMR spread to counter this graph

Cause this is implying almost 1/3 of games are 1.5-2 ranks off, which we would say MMR should account for

[pallid sable]

Because it does

A brand new player starts at 0VP

But 1300MMR

[unique aspen]

What is average MMR spread and standard deviation of MMR spread?

[pallid sable]

Thus this graph will always be “off”

[unique aspen]

Do you have data to support this? Besides the one match example from JShredz?

[sacred ice]

i dont know if i remember correctly but i think jshredz said something of 81 MMR or something

[pallid sable]

I’m like 100VP but I’m in plat lobbies. The VP difference is huge but the mmr is closer

[pallid sable]

He’s shared more at the start of this thread

[sacred ice]

its somewhere above to find

[pallid sable]

In fact feel free to @ him with a game you think is “really bad” and he can show u the MMR of the players

[sacred ice]

also remember some guys go into games with a bad state of mind wich would likely make them very much worse then what they normaly are

[pallid sable]

Exactly

U can’t predict someone’s performance solely on mmr alone

[sacred ice]

... me on the weekend, hungover like hell ... lol

[unique aspen]

@graceful scaffold could you show me the mmrs from this match if you get a chance? https://omeda.city/matches/96e762e2-442d-4017-bf85-9ede8ee64851

[pallid sable]

Hence why I said if u can develo something that can accurately predict this then you’d make billions

[sacred ice]

gotta invent the mind scan controller to better MM

[unique aspen]

My teammates went 12/40 😭

[sacred ice]

dosent seem to bad

at least not an absolute outlier

[unique aspen]

And there’s also just this game knowledge right, which you might have, and sometimes clearly see some people do not have. Taking bad team fights, chasing, bad objective engage, etc.

[unique aspen]

What do you mean? Lol.they didn’t go 0/40?

[sacred ice]

yeah but that is reflected in your MMR

[pallid sable]

Yeah but MMR can’t predict this. You can’t magically solve this

[sacred ice]

i mean i play games in my lobbys where im 3/10 sometimes

[unique aspen]

Maybe. I feel like if I had VoIP I could coach others much better, and we’d win more

[sacred ice]

or you would trashtalk people and call em bad to make em even worse mentaly so they die more often

who knows

[unique aspen]

But is it fair to say “the game is matching me with people who clearly don’t know how to play as well as me” ?

[sacred ice]

no

[unique aspen]

Yeah we’re fucked. MOBAs are so toxic

[unique aspen]

Even if I watch them make bad decisions?

[pallid sable]

No. Cos mmr can’t predict that

[sacred ice]

yeah

bad decissons from whose perspective

how often

[unique aspen]

Do we see how this supports the “coin flip” theory

To die 10+ times you are making some bad decisions

[sacred ice]

did crazzyfool die 10 times in pub games as support ?

[unique aspen]

Taking fights you shouldn’t. Unless your team are killing them more

[sacred ice]

yes

[sacred ice]

does neft take bad fights in games

i mean people having bad games and not making smart decissions in games dosent mean they are overall bad players

[unique aspen]

The more they do that the worse they are

[sacred ice]

sure thing

[unique aspen]

Crazzy might average 5 deaths but his kda is still 2.4

[sacred ice]

bro ....

you see people for 1 game at a time

[unique aspen]

Let’s see the MMR if JShredz sends it

[sacred ice]

see them be 0/7 and say they all ass

[unique aspen]

I would love to see standard deviation of MMR

I’ll dig around later

[sacred ice]

all im saying is i was 0/7 too and so was neft and all others

[unique aspen]

Neft has a 4.48 KDA

[sacred ice]

?

what has that to do with anything

all im saying is matchmaking cant prevent you from having guys in your game beiing 0/7

even if you have the best players of all time in your lobbys

imagine you were in this game and said pls why is this carry in my lobby https://omeda.city/matches/adb22243-ef2d-41fc-9fef-80cd983a9212

[unique aspen]

The whole team got stomped in that one

But yeah it’s a good example of bad games at any rank

[sacred ice]

not bad games

id say team one is the better team to be fair

but as in football too MMR isnt always something that will come true all the time

[queen minnow]

Looks like pig pop’d off

[jagged flume]

they hide real mmr

u see playing match 5 plat. vs 5 plat. and in fact you playing 5 gold vs 5 bronze (for example) 😄

[pallid sable]

Not how it works. You’ve provided no useful information or feedback in this thread. You also refuse to listen to the developers or anyone else who explained how the system works.

Only going to warn you once going on further to stop with the misinfo and I’d encourage you to educate yourself properly to read this thread in its entirety so you understand how the system works.

[graceful scaffold]

People TOTALLY complain about MM in League, even though Riot has spent more time and money designing, experimenting, validating, and integrating matchmaking changes than any developer in history, by a lot. The problem is there will never be a perfect system, and there is always room for improvement, and we're one of the many game dev teams trying to put time and effort into that improvement.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10spr3h/do_you_feel_that_league_of_legends_matchmaking/

[graceful scaffold]

You don't need a million matches to get the right quality of matches, that's why the MMR system exists. If you matched only on VP you WOULD need much longer to actually get everyone to the right spot. Either that or people's ranks would be fluctuating wildly as they went up and down and up and down the way everyone's applied skill/MMR already does.

[unique aspen]

It’s very interesting that people in here will tell me “there’s no issue with matchmaking” and you have effectively said “there will always be issues.” Which I think is correct. This will never work perfectly, at best it will work better over time.

[graceful scaffold]

I've said over and over and over in this thread that matchmaking is far from perfect, because perfect doesn't and can't exist. If perfect matchmaking existed, the Premier League and NBA and NFL would use the same approach to make perfectly balanced matches, because it's the same principle. We do not think matchmaking is perfect, the explanations here are ONLY to help everyone understand the practical realities of what the system does do well already and the much more difficult areas of improvement the team is working on.

Elo hell...kiiinda exists? Not in the way 95% of people often talk, which is the idea that somehow the game is biased against you and your teammates are too bad to win, because if you have 4 bad teammates at some elo you're better than, the other team should have 5. What may be the reality is that you can't play the same style or approach at every level. If you try to space the field and move to open ground when playing soccer against 5 year olds that all swarm the ball, it doesn't matter how good you are because you'll never get the ball. Just do the low-elo MOBA equivalent and go take that ball and run past all the 5 year olds until you play better opponents that play more refined styles.

[sacred ice]

as expected

[unique aspen]

Appreciate the response. We should not act as though there are no issues with matchmaking. The reality you present is that there will always be issues, and it’s an effort to make it better over time.

[sacred ice]

thats why the 2nd season will be much better

[unique aspen]

Is the T/F a “did win” column?

[marsh oak]

there's very little they can do to make substantial improvements... there's just too many variables at play. Aside from implementing placements and a role queue at some point

[graceful scaffold]

I think what people are trying to get at is that there's no fundamental systemic bug or design issue (relative to industry best practices) or general broken-ness, it's just an incredibly difficult problem to unpack that always has room for improvement. Both can be true at the same time.

[graceful scaffold]

Yes sorry, that's normally expanded but "did win" is exactly right

Here's how the conversation normally goes and what's played out many times in this giant megathread already.

Player: "Matchmaking is totally broken, and completely random and/or biased against me in particular. Everything is wrong and makes no sense."

Me or a helpful individual: "Matchmaking is inherently hard and there is always room for improvement, but the system is not fundamentally broken. Here is how it operates at a high level and some of the challenges the team faces..."

Player: "You're saying matchmaking is perfect but I lost this match. Clown devs."

[unique aspen]

Lol I’m not that egregious, at least not to your face.

[graceful scaffold]

Not you in particular Samurai because you've been really respectful and seem to want to learn and unpack this

Yeah I know, you're not being rude at all, I'm just summarizing what the overwhelming majority of interactions look like

I'm also being hyperbolic in service of a general point/vibe

[unique aspen]

The response I got from Onion was “it’s not an issue if you know how it works” lol

[unique aspen]

In this scenario, are the 1370s matched down because of queue efficiency?

[marsh oak]

40 mmr difference isn't a huge difference?

[graceful scaffold]

It's like 2 or 3 wins, yeah

or even 1 win if you're early on in your ranked journey

It's balanced around 1340, plus or minus about 30 either direction

[unique aspen]

Yeah it clearly gets messy very quickly

If I’m on a cold streak, we’re implying my mmr could be 100+ points higher the days/weeks before

Like I had lost 5 of 7 before that match

[graceful scaffold]

Here's me losing like 100 MMR in a few hours

[marsh oak]

the more games you play the lower the mmr movement will likely be (dependent on your the enemy mmr of course)

[unique aspen]

Need me to play support for you brah?

[graceful scaffold]

Kiiiiinda sorta. It's really more the opposite approach, which is that for your first X games you decay from extra high movement down to normal movement.

[graceful scaffold]

That iggy game I had 95k damage. 95k.

[sacred ice]

seems like bad matchmaking, quick blame someone 🙂

[graceful scaffold]

I was tilted

[unique aspen]

Yeah gets rough in these streets

[graceful scaffold]

But that's really the reason for the disconnect between rank and MMR. I CLEARLY needed to get some easier games back under my belt based on how I was playing that night (or the teammates I had or being in an off role yadda yadda), but does that mean I should lose the plat 2 rank I'd worked up to because I was having an off night?

[unique aspen]

So there is an argument right that, you can have a 1200 player (true mmr over 1000s of game) on a hot streak, and a 1400 player (same idea) on a cold streak, and they play each other. So it makes sense it can “feel bad” in a “reality check” sense for the hot streak, and a “punish” for the cold streak?

Might lose the rank if your mmr drops and you match with worse people, but I get it, only so much you can do without pulling yourself out

[graceful scaffold]

Exactly. Everyone's MMR is really in a "skill band" above and below your "true" centered value, and you move up and down around that centerpoint. As you go up you get further above your "true" centered value and get harder opponents than you can handle on averae, and as you go down you get weaker opponents than you on average.

[unique aspen]

And I end up with this lol

[graceful scaffold]

If you're much better than your "centered" MMR, then you'll continue to raise over time, and your rank will raise with it towards your new target

[unique aspen]

The frustration is somewhat inevitable then

Mindset shift perhaps

[graceful scaffold]

I mean kinda, but isn't that the point? If you're hot, you're hot and are clearly beating whoever is put in front of you at whatever level you were previously. If you're cold, for whatever reason, you're not winning and need easier opponents.

For some folks, they'll cross over into the same range even if their previous or "natural" skill levels are different.

The biggest comparison, and this really only lands for those that play/watch sports, is comparing a MOBA to any sports team.

[unique aspen]

Yeah just a lot easier to account for in 1v1 formats versus 5v5

Yeah makes sense. One player fucks it and you lose the game

[graceful scaffold]

If you played/play sports, you know that sometimes you have good games and do everything you can and your team lets you down. It sucks, it's annoying, but you move on because you know sometimes you have a totally awful game and your team picks you up.

[unique aspen]

Happens all the time in sports lol

[graceful scaffold]

EXACTLY

[unique aspen]

And we are toxic in sports too lmao

[graceful scaffold]

No player is an exact statistical respresentation, that will be expected to hit their average points per game or defensive rating or whatever.

[marsh oak]

how do you factor in player psychology into an mmr lol

[graceful scaffold]

I mean yeah, you get mad at your teammates when they fuck up and they get mad at you when you're off your game. But you don't think the fundamental league is stacked against you (unless it's the premier league and man city and chelsea are literally cheating)

[graceful scaffold]

That's the magical thing, you don't have to. If my mental is great and causing me to play better, or maybe I'm a super positive communicator that keeps everyone's morale high and they push for a win that looked lost, I'll win games that I wouldn't have otherwise. That'll make my MMR go up, and then my new ranked target will be higher.

Or if I'm super toxic, then no matter my mechanical skill I'm going to cause people to want to forfeit games that could have been won, or make my teammates not want to help keep me alive in a teamfight, and I'll do worse than my pure in-a-vacuum mouse/controller skills would otherwise indicate.

MMR fixes all of that in aggregate over time

[marsh oak]

it was more of a rhetorical question

[graceful scaffold]

Oh I know

I just have a literal answer

[unique aspen]

Do you use anything beyond the current MMR for matchmaking? For example 7/10/30 day trailing MMR would be interesting

[marsh oak]

sometimes toxicity wins matches, depends on how your teammates are influenced 😛

[unique aspen]

It could be like a weighted average of your current MMR and your MMR over the last X games

[graceful scaffold]

That's kiiiinda how the system works already, in that you've stabilized around a band and then deviate from that place based on recent results

But if you mean trying to add in an additional fancy math thing with variable weights, maybe it could be more accurate than the raw MMR calculation that already exists but it would take tons and tons and tons of validation and testing and theory and ultimately is probably (because most things are) less accurate at predicting aggregate win probability than the system that we already use.

[unique aspen]

Or like how you capture outperformers on a losing team and how that impacts mmr change

[graceful scaffold]

So that is one thing I've covered above but I'd have to find it

tl;dr that's a rabbit hole you go down and do not come back from, but is less good than just win/loss

[unique aspen]

It’s alright, not all questions need answers lol

[graceful scaffold]

examples: dekker cage (no damage applied), body blocking, shotcalling, etc.

how do you compare a shotcalling, high-morale support with weak mechanics and great game sense to a totally mechanical toxic aggressive ADC that never listens to objective calls?

[unique aspen]

I think it would be interesting. In theory weighted average mmr pulls down hot streaks and pulls up cold streaks. So there’s a layer of playing with people closer to your recent skill level relative to raw snapshot mmr

[graceful scaffold]

Rating win contribution like that just gets impossible complex

[unique aspen]

Lots of bias and variables for sure

[marsh oak]

give it 30 years, maybe AI will be able to perfectly assess someones ability

[graceful scaffold]

They said that 30 years ago about the rise of personal computers and analytics in sports

Not that you're wrong, just that humans are crazy complicated and the more we try to break it down the more we realize how little we know.

[zenith kelp]

The problem is it is impossible to actually get better with this system

[graceful scaffold]

Those systems are pretty good in aggregate, but very bad in a small slice (just like MMR)

[unique aspen]

Is there an aversion to add VoIP due to toxicity? Cause from games like Val and CS VoIP is a major factor in shot calling effectiveness

I simply can’t communicate as effectively typing on a DualShock as I can over voice

[graceful scaffold]

You can look at WAR (baseball's magic single performance number) and see that Shohei Ohtani is better than...like...some random dude that just got called up from the minors. But that random dude can go 3 for 4 one night and Shohei can strike out every at bat.

[graceful scaffold]

It's not a no, it's just not a priority at the moment because we do want to make sure we do it right.

[graceful scaffold]

How so?

Play games -> learn from mistakes -> practice mechanics -> improve

[unique aspen]

Yeah all makes a lot of sense. Thanks again for the discussion. Really great

[sacred ice]

also watch scrims

best way to get better 100%

[graceful scaffold]

That's what I'm here for. We may be far from perfect and we're learning and improving as we go the same as anyone does, but I genuinely believe the team has built something really good as a foundation that they can continue to improve over time. The focus is on the right things, there's just no magical "make it better" button now that any (I hope) core bugs have been worked out of the system after the swap to the new backend earlier this year.

[prime spoke]

Before you say "other games do this"; I'm well aware. But the reasoning I got for why other games (Riot) does this is because players cry about seeing MMR go up and down.

I can't seem to figure out a real good reason why ranks aren't based off your internal MMR? Why not just make that visible, and or public?

In chess, if your MMR is 2500+ you are given the rank Grand Master.

Why aren't we just assigning Ranks based off what your MMR is?

Remove promotional matches while we're at it?

Like if your ranked MMR is 1200. You are silver. If it drops to 999 or lower, you're bronze. If it rises to 1400 or higher, youre gold. (Example numbers)

I wonder if we do this. Then we make it so you can't be placed in a lobby with someone who is +200/-200 it would make a lot less people complain about MM.

I know player base is low. But this is some of that "experiment with new things while game is beta" shit we talked about in the past.

--
Please note. I'm trying to scroll up and find this topic spoken about but need time incase this was already asked and answered.

Please also note.

I'm not complaining about match making. Just genuinely wondering why this isn't a thing.

[sacred ice]

I guess its to give players more of an artifical ego boost

Even if they arent worthy of it (anymore)

Giving players ego boosts makes them feel good -> so they keep playing

[plain plaza]

And then youre wondering why your gold jungler is doing 3-14 while enemie bronze jungler goes 19-4 🙂

[graceful scaffold]

In chess, if your MMR is 2500+ you are given the rank Grand Master.
That ain't true, you need GM norms. VP is kind of our way of doing that.

[prime spoke]

Just an example I suppose.

But I think the point still stays the same? Idk much about chess GM norms.

But I am silver in chess. Was bronze. And it looks like I just get a rank based off my mmr?

[graceful scaffold]

MMR is about how you're playing, rank is about what you've achieved

MMR is inherently unstable and designed by its very nature to fluctuate around a range

[prime spoke]

That's a good thing imo

[graceful scaffold]

For matchmaking, absolutely

If I say "you're plat 3", you have a general understanding of what it takes to accomplish reaching platinum. If I say "you're somewhere between gold 2 and plat 2, but it depends on what role you're playing and what you ate for lunch and whether you're having a conversation with your friend at the same time..."

people inherently find that idea of instability to be frustrating

[prime spoke]

I guess i don't understand it entirely, and you absolutely don't gotta explain cause I'm too stupid for it.

But it makes it seem like ranks are vanity.

[graceful scaffold]

They're not, you can't reach a high rank without a high MMR

[prime spoke]

This makes sense

[graceful scaffold]

High MMR determines which games you're in and what teams you're on to create the most balanced and interesting games around your skill level

[prime spoke]

Because if you're good. You'll be the proper rank to reflect ur mmr? Eventually?

[graceful scaffold]

High rank denotes someone that has consistently achieved and maintained a high MMR for a long period of time, and has proven themselves worthy of that rank

[graceful scaffold]

Yep

[prime spoke]

But aren't ranks gonna reset?

[graceful scaffold]

MMR is about getting you good games, rank is about letting you show off how good you are

[prime spoke]

Ok ok I see

[graceful scaffold]

Eventually at some point probably, but that's a design decision that I'm not super concerned with myself

[prime spoke]

Okay 1 last question

Can you disclose what a high rank currently is objectively speaking ? Is it plat III? Or D3? Or...

Obviously paragon is a high rank. But I think u know what I mean

[graceful scaffold]

Also just to follow up on your exact example from above:

Like if your ranked MMR is 1200. You are silver. If it drops to 999 or lower, you're bronze. If it rises to 1400 or higher, youre gold. (Example numbers)

I wonder if we do this. Then we make it so you can't be placed in a lobby with someone who is +200/-200 it would make a lot less people complain about MM.
This is literally how it works, except for the little border you see around people's names on the loading screen.

The only difference between what you proposed and how it operates is the perception of someone's "true rank"

[prime spoke]

Tyvm!

[prime spoke]

I ask this just for my own curiosity of knowing like... oh that guy must be good. He's in gold 1. (Example)

Maybe this is all entirely subjective.

[graceful scaffold]

This is going to sound like I'm joking, but I'm mostly not

Anyone higher than you is good

it's all relative to where you're at in your own pred journey

[prime spoke]

That makes sense. Which is why I said maybe it's subjective

Ty for your time.

Match making guru jshredz

New name pls. Change ur name.

[graceful scaffold]

god please no

people already think I actually DO matchmaking and/or wrote the system and/or designed it and/or whatever

[vague ridge]

Yeah it’s annoying that at plat I’m constantly being put into lobbies with all Paragon and D2+ rated players, I don’t want to be in that lobby, I havnt climbed there yet!

I’m not nearly as good as most of them and just feel like a burden on the loading screen lol

[prime spoke]

But... you did 😉

[graceful scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/cant-believe-youve-done-this-punch-ouch-gif-9605268

[prime spoke]

Good point. But you can't get better playing ppl worse than u

The game must believe ur ready for that skill challenge!!

So take it as a good sign

[graceful scaffold]

Are you getting more VP per win than you drop per loss?

[vague ridge]

+21 -15 I think

[prime spoke]

I've always gotten more for winning then I lose. Does it ever flip?

I guess 1 last thing. There are rumors that you can't get demoted from gold. Is that true??

[graceful scaffold]

That's the max diff, it means you're still on the way up

The system is basically testing you in higher lobbies to see if you can hang, and if you can then your VP/rank will keep going up

[graceful scaffold]

You can, but most people that play enough ranked to end up in gold probably are meant to be there

[prime spoke]

Ty ty

I was really curious if the rumors are true

Doesn't seem so

[vague ridge]

That’s true. And you can also get worse (form bad habits) playing against players worse than you. I’ve got experience with that having played lots with stacks in discord of lower mmr players

[prime spoke]

That is specifically why I don't play with stacks at all. Especially on this discord

I watch paragon or diamond level streamers and take notes. I don't listen to the noise.

[vague ridge]

It’s just often after a long work day, I get home, smoke some bud, and just wanna chill. Not have to be stressed in a high lobby and get typed at for making a wrong play lol

[prime spoke]

I play standards in that situation

When I'm playing ranked. I'm playing for perfection.

And I take it, probably, too seriously.

Me?

I didn't.

[jagged flume]

no.. my mistake

[prime spoke]

Oh, myb

[sacred ice]

What ? Did you read all the rank has nothing to do with matchmaking dialogs ?

Like that is what is mentiond 100k times now

Wait i read that wrong ... i think

Nvm

[slim wave]

Also, this would make already pretty long queue times longer
Didn't read if this was said already but wanted to add it in

The whole within 200 vp thing is what I'm referring to

[prime spoke]

Oh yeah no doubt it would make it longer

[brave cargo]

This may be a dumb question…but how did League of Legends do it? They must have had similar issues in 2009 gaining comp players ? Was theirs an internal MMR system or whatever?

[tawny basalt]

They use basically the same system as pred. Internal mmr thats more accurate and ranked points system thats more fun to climb

[brave cargo]

Interesting. Thx for response. I wonder what’s so different about their internal MMR deliberation process vs. pred. I’m sure it’s proprietary, but still…I bet once there’s more people playing it’ll get better

[nimble barn]

they are still to this day making MM changes

[jolly cairn]

League was a smash hit from day 1. They’ve never had to negotiate the territory Pred is currently wading through

There are many systems that break down if you don’t have the right volume of traffic. In this case, matchmaking algorithms break down when you don’t have enough players at all times to fill out every skill tier sufficiently.

Pred is healthy but we’re still a very small game and this affects matchmaking quality (queue speed, range of represented skill tiers etc, time of day etc). It’s also why the matchmaking had a limited rollout that is STILL limited with no indication of it changing any time soon

[tawny basalt]

We dont know a ton about leagues internal mmr but its not gonna be that much better than preds. Pred does use a good (although outdated) mmr algo and its still pretty accurate and plenty other games use the same algo and have little complaints.

Part of the issue with pred MM is for sure the outdated algo and small playerbase but most of it is that the MM was just terrible for a long time and omeda.city made that very clear. So its bred this culture were everyone sees preds MM as worse than it is.

[solid marlin]

i feel like one of the biggest differences between league and pred is that for new accounts if the internal MMR is extremely high vs the rank players can skip ranks to quickly get to the rank they are supposd to be. Vs how pred does where you have to grind through every single rank. So if I am silver 4 in league but i have plat mmr and i rank up i might skip silver 3 and silver 2 and go almost straight to ranking up into gold

[nimble barn]

i remeber watching a vid about how riot made some background changes to specifically filter out smurfs as fast as possible

like they can tell of ur csing and how u combo abilities

[graceful scaffold]

Being addressed in the future 👍

[tender steppe]

but that would just be addressing the rank icon?

as in, youd still have interesting people on your team

[solid marlin]

there is never a time you wont have interesting people on your team

every game i have ever played at every rank people think other players are interesting thats just how games work

[tender steppe]

im talking about people with low games played coming into higher elo games.

[solid marlin]

there isnt an issue with that if thats where they are supposed to be. If someone with 500 games is in plat, someone else made it to plat with 50. does it really matter

[tender steppe]

there are a few obvious people i just cant name them here, where i question how they even get into pred lobbies.

[solid marlin]

well there are good players who can troll and still get to the highest mmr bc they are good, but at higher mmr it makes games hard

[tender steppe]

I mean its just a issue with low player base. id rather have changes to duo and and solo system at higher elo.

everyoner deals with the same issue.

so it just fixes itself over time.. although not the best way

[tender steppe]

yes. that is true

For me, i look at just playing the game as it is from this point on.

I reached Para, now i just play the characters i want to enjoy.

[solid marlin]

i am not really sure what you are trying to fix tho, your just saying there are players you think shouldnt be at x rank

but if they reach the rank then shouldnt they be there

unless the system is ranking people up with 50% or les winrate

[tender steppe]

Well, I was just trying to talk tbf. wat i would like fixed is duoing in high elo lobbies.

[solid marlin]

tbh i didnt even know you could duo in high elo lobbies until like 2 weeks ago it blew my mind. I thought diamond 1 and paragon were solo only

i would like this changed as well

[tender steppe]

Rgsace said this wouldnt be possible.

but its in the game...

[solid marlin]

yea i mean i definitely can duo

the rank 1 guy duos every day, so its definitely in the game.

i mean its not that big of an issue but it could allow for better games for d1 and up to not allow duo

[tender steppe]

I mean, i think it is. In high elo any small adv you have is significant

comms being pretty good for saying jungle hp, rotations, etc.

[solid marlin]

but obviously there are cons some people even high elo players only have fun when they duo so should they be punished just bc they are good idk

[tender steppe]

Then you have casuals.

ranked should stay ranked, i believe there needs to be a mode that allows bans and no mirrors thats casual but we have small base.

[graceful scaffold]

Ain't, unless I guess technically from a rank-only perspective it can do that if you mean <50% win rate only after after first boosting their MMR to a high level with a >50% win rate, but their MMR will drop over time and that's the only thing that controls how people get into games anyway.

[graceful scaffold]

I would be surprised if he did, we use the same system League does up to Master. I know that League GMs and Challengers are solo only, but for right now I believe our targets for Pred Paragon are closer to League Master than they are Challenger.

As with everything, subject to change over time but as currently constructed

[graceful scaffold]

The first time you started playing ranked, were you really a bronze or gold player in actual skill, or had you just not reached your true level yet?

[prime spoke]

Excuse me master match making wizard @graceful scaffold . I ask you because we all know you invented MMR and the rank system 😉

Do you think you guys will add ranks beyond diamond like master, grandmaster, then paragon as the ultimate grandiose title? Or naw? (Obviously not now or anytime soon*)

[graceful scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/dead-my-honest-reaction-damn-skull-skeleton-gif-15885937969029652188

The honest answer is I have no idea

[prime spoke]

Haha okay tyvm for the fast reply!

[tender steppe]

sahouldnt allow paragon to be duod.

he 100% did

it was in predchat or wat ever that pred podcast was

Youd shouldnt allow duo que in general IMO.

[tender steppe]

can you also share why the team is lacking in testing out 2 bans for each team / no mirror bans?

i would assume ranked mode pre season would be for testing purposes

but we have had 0 rank updates. Time added is not a update.

[slim wave]

Huh

[tender steppe]

was that difficult to read?

[slim wave]

No I get what you mean now
I was just confused but thats on me

[rotund jewel]

can you guys consider a countdown que with one free dodge a day... the fact that you guys went back to standard mm for ranked is utterly disgusting

[graceful scaffold]

standard mm
As opposed to...?

[rotund jewel]

Balance mm within 100-200 mmr 1000-2000 vp?

Instead of the team avg mmr/vp

The team avg mm fucking kills me man, my last game was 2 paragons 3 plats vs 4 diamonds and 1 gold, and playing with the one gold guy sucked

if you had role que at least you can force the gold guy to play supp in that game

[graceful scaffold]

That's not how the system works

It balances for a match of close MMR, and the averaging step is only done when 10 close players are found.

[graceful scaffold]

The "gold" player there has a 62% career winrate, and 39 wins to 22 losses in ranked for a 64% win rate there.

I just checked, and they've got a higher MMR than you or I do

By a decent margin

[solid marlin]

yea besides what Jshredz said where the gold player has higher mmr then you, forcing people into the support role isnt alwawys a good thng 😄

if they dont know how to play support it doesnt help

"forcing people to play support bc you think they suck" is not the answer you think it is

[rotund jewel]

they have no idea how to play dude, its easy to get a high w/r against scrubs in this game bro.

[rotund jewel]

they have no idea how to play in higher mmr, it worked in smite.

[graceful scaffold]

They've won 7 of of their last 10, including plenty of wins against Paragon players

[rotund jewel]

when smite had a dwindling player base they switch to a countdown que, they also had role que. N just for example i was high diamond low masters, if i got put into a GM Lobby it forced me into supp, so the game was more fair.

[graceful scaffold]

They literally JUST won a game against a team with higher VP than you just played, playing the same sev jungle

[rotund jewel]

because sports is a one trick feng, n he got put into supp

[graceful scaffold]

I mean you can try to nitpick all you want, but they win games and do not appear to be in the wrong lobbies

[rotund jewel]

obs things like that boil down to luck, but with role que it wouldn't be like that

naw

there are certain players that skew matchmaking if they dont get their role rn lol

[solid marlin]

im not necessarily against a countdown queue, im just saying putting people in support isnt a fix for people you think are bad, just means if enemy duo are good enemy adc is gunna be fed

[solid marlin]

@graceful scaffold one thing i am curious about personally is the extreme volitility of the MMR. If i look at this gold person match histroy. Sure he went 7-3 in his last 10 but his next 10 games (11-20) he went 3-7. Those games were all vs golds and plats right (yes he doesnt play a lot so they are older). BUT if he is playing vs golds and plats and goes 3-7 in total then all of a sudden wins 4 games in a row:

Game 10 - Won vs Golds and Plats
Game 9 -won vs golds and Plats
Game 8 - Won vs all plats
Game 7 - Won vs Golds Plats and 1 diamond
Game 6 - LOST vs Plats and Diamonds so streak ends
Game 5 - Won vs Dimonds plats golds
Game 4 - won vs - Paragon Diamonds plats
Game 3 - Lost vs - Plats Diamonds Golds
Game 2 - Lost vs - Plats and Paragons
Game 1 - Won vs Diamonds

I feel like the MMR rose so fast, he went from playing golds and plats to being in all diamond paragon lobbies in less then 10 games

So how volatile is the internal MMR currently is it possible its to volatile?

BTW I am just using this as an example of MMR going up what seems like rapidly. Which means it could go down i assume just as fast. This means the variability of games could be insane

I cant see internal MMR so maybe it didnt rise that fast but seems like holy cow it rose super fast

[covert fjord]

How do points work in Ranking? Why are higher ranked players getting more points in wins than lower ranked?

Is it based on which lane you pick? I don't get it...

[solid marlin]

so if you have higher internal mmr then your rank you will gain more VP then you lose. For instance, if you have Diamond level internal MMR but your Current Rank is gold you will gain +25 and only lose 12 or something.

If you have even MMR according to your Rank you will gain as much as you lose so +16 -16

if you have less MMR then your Rank then you will lose more VP then you win +8 -21

its works something like that

[graceful scaffold]

Golds and plats a month ago are diamonds and paragons now. He played a then-plat, now-paragon Gankz in the first match I opened up from that group.

That's not the case for everyone, but the ranks are shifting really quickly and especially then, when it was recently after we fixed VP gains/losses.

[graceful scaffold]

If anything it's less volatile than the trueskill system OC used. You move by about 12-15 MMR per match.

[solid marlin]

right they were plats months ago and now they are paragons which mean i assume months ago their MMR has changed not stayed the same

[graceful scaffold]

Maybe but not necessarily. With the VP gain/loss issues we had people absolutely squished up in high gold/low plat they have expanded back out since that fix

Even with static MMR, a good many folks were a full color tier or more under where they should be.

[solid marlin]

i mean in less then 12 games in the last 15 days that guy went from consistently playing plat/golds to diamonds/paragons. With an 8-4 record.

even if he is a player that will eventually obtain a paragon rank that sounds strange

[graceful scaffold]

But that's what I'm saying about the VP bugs the team fixed

Everyone's rank has gone up a ton in the last month or so after that was fixed

This person in contrast has played very little since those fixes, so they're lagging behind on the correction

[maiden relic]

Hey man, this isn’t about this topic but i was wondering if we could get a response if this has been fixed or if you need more testing to see what causes it bcs if so i would love to help https://discord.com/channels/389767672151146498/1272786770068770910

[fluid vector]

what is a countdown queue?

[normal rose]

12-15 is way more on your scale than it is on OC's. Trueskill is quite the opposite of volatile.

The avg change was 7.3

On a 0-3000 scale

[graceful scaffold]

Then I misinterpreted the swing change in early accounts as representative, my bad. As ever, not an expert and just an intermediary with general goals.

[strange igloo]

This matchmaking on this game i swear I was about to go in plat

Now in gold 3

How does that work

This is why

[snow tendon]

Carry diff

[queen minnow]

probably losing more then you win

[strange igloo]

Yeah this because I am getting teammates like that

Everygame

[strange igloo]

Soo bad

[queen minnow]

zzz

[tender steppe]

At this point, I just have fun with the game. Play whatever characters I want, mute the people that are toxic, and that's kinda it.

I have my favorite ogre narbash again. That's all I want

[dim briar]

How does the system works if you have two players together with the same rank, but totally different internal mmr?
For example if there are two players with gold rank, one 1600 internal mmr, the other one 800. Are they put in a 1200 lobby or closer to the better player?

[plain plaza]

They dont show oyu the mmr so you cant see the actual picture and just feeding bullsh!t noone can check. You have to believe themm and stop arguing or you will be banned.

[slim wave]

I mean that just isn't true lmfao

[graceful scaffold]

A player couldn't reach gold with an 800 MMR, you wouldn't see a situation in which two players of the same rank were that far apart on MMR.

But just for the purposes of answering your second question, right now duo partners are averaged together so they'd be treated like two players at whatever the average of their MMRs is. The relationship between how far apart two duo players are and how it affects their win probability is nonlinear, which means a difference of 100 MMR when they're near average and 100 MMR when they're way below or above average yields totally different results, and the amount of time two players have spent playing together and the roles they play are more significant and impactful in most cases than the difference in their MMR when you look at the effect on the team's chances of winning.

It's an optimization to pick apart at some point because intuitively it does make sense that you'd want to skew towards the higher-ranked player, but the amount you do that and the system you have to design for those corrections to be accurate in aggregate is just not a high priority for time spent right now.

[dim briar]

Thanks for the clarification. Was only wondering about this because ranks are used for teaming up and internal mmr for mm, if there could be cases where it messes with mm.

[graceful scaffold]

So yes and no. Your MMR drives the direction that your rank goes, and they're both ultimately driven by wins and losses so they don't tend to be super far apart for someone that's played a lot.

The case in which they ARE far apart is for a player that's not played very many ranked games but has a very high win rate and is destined for a higher rank when they stabilize.

[vague saffron]

diamond 1s + shouldnt be allowed duo que

[vague ridge]

I see no problem with it as long as the Paragon duos are only on my team

[vague saffron]

me and my paragon homies go play standard for a fun time.

ranekdk should be ranked, especially at the higher elo.

with how snarky everyone is at that elo

carry balance is still a big gap, hence why so many of the 'top' players are all carry currently.

the carry potential for carry ( go figure ) is much higher and on top of that a duo in high elo that can comm is very strong. its not lie league where you can directly ping things, move the screen to view arears or see obj hp.

your limited to what is directly in front of you

now before onion comes in here saying off topic, this does correlate to match making because your allowing duo at higher eo.

'why isnt everoyne abusing it' isnt a strong point either. It just shouldnt exist.

[vague saffron]

also, wouldl ike to say a diamond 3 in pred is more like a silver or gold player equivalent in league. paragon, is more like plat or diamond in league. skill differential of the pred community seems to big, but i guess its what happens when u got a small a base.

[unique aspen]

Yep…unfortunately gold can feel like silver in csgo. I get these games can be hard, but it’s clear the decisions being made reflect very low skill. In most games bronze players will struggle against plat players. In Pred it might just mean one player hasn’t played as much as the other

[vague saffron]

There's alot to consider

Roles, possibly being more complex because it 3rd person not on top pov

Player count low

Under 20% of the pop plays rankedm

[eager saffron]

tbf anything below legendary Eagle in Csgo felt like silver to me xD

[graceful scaffold]

I mean if you mean in a sense of absolute potential achievement yeah, but really it's all relative

what is silver or diamond other than the top x% of a given player base?

[vague saffron]

trueish

i mean theres some people that ive seen enter diamond that are really meh tbf

and if im paragon, somethings wrong

[graceful scaffold]

It's also all the sum total of someone's skills rather than one slice

I've picked back up rocket league and it's reminded me of a truism: if I see someone do something crazy mechanical in my lobbies at the beginning of the match, they're probably going to turn out to be a bad teammate. If I see someone's car flopping around the way I do, they're probably going to be a great teammate otherwise they wouldn't have done enough to get up to that level.

Maybe someone's a bad 1v1 carry player but they ended up with that role because they were filling an open slot, and they're actually a really good shotcaller or position super well or play all roles at a solid level but no role spectacularly. Lots of ways to contribute to a win, and to then take those wins and stack them up to get to a high level.

[unique aspen]

There are these kind of subjective elements that are very hard to quantify. How to play from behind for example. Map awareness. You may have an understanding of these things and see people demonstrating a lesser understanding of them, and the sentiment is they are not as good as you. Just a very difficult task and it’s a game of means (averages) over time

[nimble barn]

all my suffering and grinding just for papaya to say it doesnt mean much anyways 💀

[solid marlin]

All he is going to say is the internal mmr between the two teams is close

[graceful scaffold]

I'd like to point out the "bronze" player did by far the best on the losing team

followed by the "silver 3"

But also see all the stuff above etc. etc. changes coming in the future to address some of the perception issues

[jolly cairn]

I mean, clearly the example in reference supports that position.

[solid marlin]

I wasnt even saying it as a dig to Jshredz, its just the common response, by now anytime anyone posts a screenshot saying something isnt balanced the response is usually him posting the internal mmr or just stating the MMR betwween the two teams was almost exactly even or very close. So Just gotta wait for some of the changes such as skipping ranks and other things they have in store to help wwiht the perception games are unbalanced bc ranks look like they are

[iron depot]

Honestly. At this point the talk about MMR is just beating a dead horse. There just needs to be a relevant place for all this information to be gathered and put in a quick n easy to read FAQ, so poor Jshredz doesn't have to sit here and explain it to each individual confused about it.

[jolly cairn]

Yeah I guess that’s fair. It’s taken WAAAAAAAY too long for any iteration in ranked. And I’m honestly not very hopeful for how much change they will implement

[solid marlin]

im confused they have been iterating on ranked

they made a large change a few weeks ago or a month ago fixing a large scale bug

upon i assume other smaller changes affecting how MMR and VP are calculated

that was the entire point to the way they rolled out ranked. Whether or not you or i agree with it

[jolly cairn]

They fixed bugs.

Actual iteration on the product that was initially rolled out as obviously incomplete has not happened

[iron depot]

Like lack of ban phases for instance.

We're still doing the mirror ban situation.

[solid marlin]

oh yea i agree with that, thats a different thing, ok

i thought you just meant mmr and vp

[jolly cairn]

Oh no, the bugs haven’t even really been a concern for me. The system was very barebones on release and now some new stuff is coming (tbd timing of course) and I’m just skeptical about how long it’ll take to have a full set of features in the mode

[solid marlin]

That makes sense to me!!! i am with you there!

[graceful scaffold]

There's been more iteration behind the scenes than has been put forward. That's a missed opportunity on our end

But also a lot of the more obvious changes (rank skipping, role swapping, etc.) are coming

[fluid vector]

role queue possibly? 👀

[graceful scaffold]

Never say never, but it doesn't do the magical things people think it does and comes with huge drawbacks. There are many more things we can and should explore first that will have a greater impact on fun game outcomes.

[fluid vector]

thanks mr shredz

[graceful scaffold]

I've covered it in a few places before, but just to rehash

Assume there are twice as many players that want to play mid as support. Do you...

1. Just make mid queues twice as long. This is fine in peak hours in a large region if you're at the bulk of the MMR curve, but doesn't work overnight/in smaller regions/for super high MMR players. This would very literally limit our ability to spread to other regions in the future.

2. Force half the mid players to play support. People wouldn't be happy to be forced into a role they don't want, obviously not a great outcome.

3. Try to "backfill" random mid or other role players into support in some sort of continuous rotation. You still end up with the games that people are drafted into playing support but don't want to and don't really solve the problem.

[fluid vector]

would like being able to select your top 3 preferred roles work? or like a role filter?

i know nothing about mobas and how others operate

[graceful scaffold]

Role swapping in draft (coming) would allow you to play a different role than you were assigned, but requires you to make a 1-for-1 deal with someone else to flip, and can require a lot of complicated arbitrage for everyone to end up where they're happy. The advantage of the current system is that the dynamic role flipping may slightly reduce the odds of you getting your #1 pick, but also heavily reduces the odds of getting your least favorite.

[graceful scaffold]

So the answer is maybe and speaking honestly it's the most likely to have a viable path. Smite 2 is now letting you preference-rank all 5 roles, but ultimately you're still giving a system a ticket and the system is giving you back an assignment.

[fluid vector]

yeah it would make the most sense to me

i understand we simply dont have the people and queues would get super long

but compromise is nice

[graceful scaffold]

My whiteboard ideal for some futuretimeTM is some combination of role preference ranking mixed with a very soft version of role queue, where maybe you get matched with other players that might prefer other roles but still have the flexible dynamic pre-draft swapping we have now.

[fluid vector]

yeah that makes sense :) like itd be cool to preference rank all 5

or filter out 2 roles you REALLY dont want to play

[graceful scaffold]

Like, we don't tell you "you're the mid", but we try to find you a team of people that prefer each of the other 4 roles as best as we can, but still allow for the dynamic mixing we do now to settle whatever else you need

[graceful scaffold]

So really strict things like this are almost always going to be support + something else. The more strict you get, the more you ironically end up forcing people into bad outcomes.

[covert prairie]

Overwatch at one point gave people priority passes if they were to select fill instead of 1-2 roles. It incentives flexing and lowers queue times a little bit then when players queue a role they can opt to use a priority pass which will put them ahead of the line in that sense. One downside though to this is people were playing off-roles just to get them. However Blizzard gave out more to the player if they won the game, rather than lose to incentive them to try and win

[graceful scaffold]

Definitely does help a bit with patching over some of the issues of role queue, but it's a bandaid more than a solution.

[covert prairie]

Yeah

[graceful scaffold]

No idea is a bad idea to at least explore, but the cost/benefit analysis for a system like this is suuuuuuuper complex and multivariate

Again, what might be good and obvious for someone in New York that only plays on Saturday evening might not work the same for someone that is only free on weekday mornings in Brazil and wants expansion into a dedicated South American region

[covert prairie]

I’m still waiting to play ranked in the morning lol

No changes in the last six weeks to its availability is kind of wild to me

[graceful scaffold]

Within any given region in any given game, the average population swings by 20x from peak to valley just within one day.

Literally 20 times multiple from valley to peak, just in one region, just in one day

[graceful scaffold]

So those times are currently chosen to align with 90% of the matches played within a day, and to try to keep both queue times and match quality high.

[vague saffron]

i wake up every day excited to see what PFP you changed too.

[vague saffron]

if i ahve to play support

[graceful scaffold]

Expanding to the other 10% is definitely something we want to do, but we're again talking a dropoff of many multiples from where we end now to the absolute lowest point in a day, so it's not as simple as "just do it overnight"

[vague saffron]

ill ninstall

[graceful scaffold]

I know you're joking but you hit on the core issue. Someone HAS to play support, so either we assign someone (role queue) or we let the team have some awesome, flexible, and more reasonable folks than Papaya offer to be good teammates and play support with our current system.

[fluid vector]

burn

[graceful scaffold]

Gottem

[unique aspen]

League uses a two preference system right? I haven’t played long enough to know if they still do. But you have players who queue for Carry & Support for example. You also have players who queue for Fill.

Alternatively, you incentivize playing support - e.g., play 20 ranked games as support, unlock this exclusive cosmetic

I also am in the camp of forcing people to play roles they don’t want to play (read: are terrible at) is not good for ranked

[graceful scaffold]

Alternatively, you incentivize playing support - e.g., play 20 ranked games as support, unlock this exclusive cosmetic
The problem is, this is temporary and any solution we'd need would have to be permanent.

[graceful scaffold]

Well yes, but how do you solve for the imbalances in what those roles are? It's not a perfectly even distribution

[unique aspen]

The point of something like that is to encourage more people to try the role. If the role is good enough some will stick

There are heroes we might love but never really try or learn. There has to be some nudge

[graceful scaffold]

I've played every hero and enjoy every role, including support. That being said, if you had to rank them I'd probably put support at the bottom, even if I still quite enjoy it.

I really like playing fill and I'm certainly happy to play support, but if you just ask me to rank and feed that to the system how is to going to know the difference between me (rank support last but really like it) and Papaya (will literally uninstall)?

These are by no means unsolvable problems, but they're certainly not simple ones which is kind of the point I'm trying to make about role queue. For every suggestion, there's a problem that requires another solution, which creates a new problem that requires a solution, and so on.

[unique aspen]

The what aboutism rabbit hole is not why we’re here though. It’s to help you make better decisions

[graceful scaffold]

No none of this is whataboutism

The whatabouts are literally the problems you have to solve

Complex problems do not have simple solutions, you are required to go down each of those rabbit holes to answer each of the contingencies and emergent challenges

[unique aspen]

In the current format, papaya takes a 50/50 or 33% or even a 25% chance to get a role

[graceful scaffold]

I don't think that's accurate

I get one of my top two roles in most cases, and in cases where I don't the team shifts around until we find a reasonable compromise

[unique aspen]

No one picks supports, papaya and one other person want the same role. He has a 50/50 to uninstall?

[graceful scaffold]

But that's not solved by role queue

[unique aspen]

It is if any of the other 3 people 2nd choice Support

[graceful scaffold]

If those preferences exist, then whether you force the roles via role queue or leave a soft system like we have, those preferences still exist

they don't though

[unique aspen]

Is it not more often that they would though?

[graceful scaffold]

the population is not split all nicely like that, this is something we know to be true from the data published by other games

[unique aspen]

You don’t want to lose time on a better system trying to create the perfect system. (Not saying this is happening)

[graceful scaffold]

What?

Try that sentence on me again because I didn't parse it

[unique aspen]

Inaction due to incomplete scenario analysis is not strictly better than making a good decision now

[graceful scaffold]

I mean

1. I'm not sure what part of any of what I said above implies that we're not doing things

2. I'm still not sure what the "good decision now" is

what specifically are you saying is the automatic upgrade?

If you want to send someone to the moon, you don't just tape them to a rocket because it'll get you most of the way there

[unique aspen]

We’re getting some of it right? I can’t find the list Robbie had shared

Role swap for example

This is more philosophical than accusatory

[graceful scaffold]

No I know

[unique aspen]

If Omeda tries to send people to the moon I’m going to be very concerned

[graceful scaffold]

I don't build anything myself, so you're not really accusing me of anything and we gucci

[unique aspen]

I don’t buy THAT many skins JShredz

[graceful scaffold]

But I do help solve these kinds of larger problems, so I'm trying to use you as a reflector to pick this apart

I'm just a point-counterpoint guy until we reach a level I can't dispute

[unique aspen]

Can I ask what your title is?

[graceful scaffold]

sr. manager, live production and game operations

[unique aspen]

Sounding like a true Onion here lol

[fluid vector]

also is it super costly to implement a role queue? i know nothing about game dev

[graceful scaffold]

unofficially, floating consultant guy

[fluid vector]

so im really curious and excited to talk to someone on the team about it

[graceful scaffold]

Read the last like two hours of stuff real quick to get caught up and then ask any questions you got

[unique aspen]

Ah okay I thought you were much more of a matchmaking dev so that helps lol

[graceful scaffold]

God no

Most people do because I spend a lot of time as the intermediate talking to people

[fluid vector]

i skimmed it all so excuse me if im wrong

[graceful scaffold]

My job is to understand as much as possible across our development efforts (both technical and design) at a reasonable sub-surface level, and then understand the game and community and players all the same

[fluid vector]

and i took a little bit of statistics so by far im not a doctor or anything lol but i do know a little bit

[graceful scaffold]

And tie the inside and outside together to facilitate our actual devs to do awesome stuff

[fluid vector]

its hard to tell how many people are going to be like you (like supp, rank last) vs papaya (uninstall)

the question that comes to my mind is who is the outlier?

how many people have an absolute hatred for a role vs ehhh im ok playing it

[unique aspen]

We’re not getting any version of rank preference in 1.1 right? Just swap?

[fluid vector]

for example i fucking hate offlane

cant play it, dont like it, not good at it

[graceful scaffold]

This is kind of the exact question to ask and answer

[graceful scaffold]

I don't know specifically if swap is in 1.1, but it's soon

[fluid vector]

look at me asking senior level stuff :D

[graceful scaffold]

Not saying it's not, but when specifically things are ready for release and signed off is beyond the level I poke my head into in most cases

[unique aspen]

Part of the question in response to this question is “does some version of pre-queue rank preference partially mitigate someone’s hatred for a role?”

[fluid vector]

i think it would mitigate the actions that happen when someone is forced into a role

[unique aspen]

I see I just recall some tweet from Robbie was floating around

[graceful scaffold]

Probably maybe yes

[fluid vector]

if i had a role filter where i could block up to 2 roles, i would probably just block offlane

another thing is WHY do people hate these roles so much?

[unique aspen]

If the answer then is “we’re working on it” that’s fine

[unique aspen]

They lose

[fluid vector]

for me personally i have never played a moba before so i probably pissed off a lot of people when i started with carry lol

[graceful scaffold]

That's kinda actually the benefit of what we have now. This is an oversimplification but not wildly so.

1. Role queue maximizes the chances of getting your first or second choice, but increases the odds that you get "stuck" with one of your least favorite roles because you're leaving it up to a system to decide for you.

2. Current soft system reduces the odds of getting your first or second choice, but significantly decreases the odds you end up with your least-favorite because the team can shift and sort dynamically and you can have conversations throughout the process.

[unique aspen]

Or it’s not fun. But mostly it’s not fun because you lose lol

[graceful scaffold]

Oh totally, that's what I tried to cover above

I know this thread is like 8000 replies long at this point, but earlier today I broke down some of my goals and ideals

They're just not simple

[fluid vector]

would a role queue force you into a role if your preferred roles werent available fast enough

?

[graceful scaffold]

#1282499872469159998 message

[graceful scaffold]

"Role queue" is such an overloaded term encompassing many, many different implementations with varying levels of strictness (and associated variation in challenges) across many games.

[unique aspen]

Lmao yeah, I think you can see this in parallel to the thread about communication though

[graceful scaffold]

What thread?

[unique aspen]

#1284135487673466951 message

Did we ever get the August roadmap?

(Genuine ask not a snub)

[graceful scaffold]

I'm not sure, I know the hero roadmap went out

and we've talked about future features

[unique aspen]

I don’t see anything really on the official news webpage

[graceful scaffold]

Part of it is that yes we can and should always aim to be and do better

[queen minnow]

This 1 is solid

[graceful scaffold]

But also, I've spent how many hours across the last several weeks (and months and years) in discord talking to people, I've done predcasts, I've written several blogs

And many people still ask the same questions that were answered over and over in all of those places

So again, yes we can always do more

And certainly I understand people disappointed that there's not a more clear feature roadmap publicly (although a lot of that is because most folks don't realize how the dev process works and how things shift around)

But some of it is also because the information IS out there in as many places as we can have it, but it doesn't reach some individual's eyes and ears in their limited access of available information and it's seen as a failure.

That's not all of it, but it's not an insignificant part of it.

[unique aspen]

Yeah not easy

Centralizing it will help, even if it’s not backdated

[graceful scaffold]

The blogs I've written about matchmaking are still there 🤷‍♂️

And it's only one small example of a thing I've spent a lot of time trying to be the communicator for because I know people care a lot about it

But it's a good example

There's a significant perception that matchmaking grabs a random assortment of players as long as the overall overage between the two teams is even, despite the fact that it's been covered across two blogs still on the website, 3 or 4 predcast appearances when we touch on matchmaking topics, this tread like 6 or 8 times already, and however many other cases.

Obviously I'm coming off as somewhat exasperated with that particular point because honestly I a bit am, but I'm still here and still happy to answer those questions in as many cases as I can while still being told we don't communicate at all

[tepid sentinel]

so jshredz how does matchmaking work?

[graceful scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/denzel-washington-get-out-no-hell-gif-10700690

[unique aspen]

Isn’t that highlighting a different issue though?

[graceful scaffold]

than the roadmap thing?

totally

and again I'm far from saying we've nailed it

it's just part of the broader topic that I'm trying to provide some alternative open communication and insight on

y'all want open chats with the dev team, so I'm here for ya

[unique aspen]

There is a desire though to say “here’s where you find the answer to the thing you’re asking about” rather than “here’s the answer (for the nth time)”

[graceful scaffold]

Yep, and there is space for a wiki page or some such that can be discord botted, that's a good idea

[unique aspen]

Which I view more as like a website organization, creation of forum, some kind of means to deliver more effective communication

[graceful scaffold]

But also I'm just doin this on my free time because I like you guys

you wouldn't know it but I've been off all week

[unique aspen]

Lol

Not sure we’re worth that

But appreciated nonetheless

[graceful scaffold]

I care deeply about this game and community, so if one way I can help is to be an active communication conduit then I'm happy to be

[graceful scaffold]

One nuanced bit of this though, someone saying "go find this over there" is seen as dismissive, and "here let me take time to talk to your specific questions" is engaging. You make a great point from an efficiency perspective, but part of the battle is hearts and minds and all that.

Ok lunch is all done so I'm actually gonna go take the doggo for a walk and then probably pop down for a nap

As ever leave any questions and whatnot and I'll get back to 'em in time

[unique aspen]

Yeah I just want you to rest too haha, good to separate. Enjoy chief and thanks for the commitment

[graceful scaffold]

For sure, and I really appreciate it. Discord chats are pretty easy things to pop over to while playing warframe or whatever so I'm still chillin, plus I genuinely enjoy the conversation and ideation with folks that are properly engaged. I've got a lot of experience in this industry but would never pretend to have anything approaching all the answers, so the best thing I can do is try to be a filter or challenge mechanism to put outside ideas through and check viability. Way more smart minds playing predecessor than we could ever have making it and all that

[fluid vector]

how come the devs dont respond to all the bug report threads

#1275543873564840017 has been open for a long time and i havent seen a dev reply

im not saying its mandated by law to answer within 5 minutes

[graceful scaffold]

Partly because there are too many to respond to all of them, partly because not everyone wants to spent their free time on reddit

[fluid vector]

but its frustrating seeing devs reply to other, smaller threads, but not the one with 200 replies

[graceful scaffold]

They do get grabbed for info and are raised internally

But not everything has the opportunity for a full feedback cycle

[fluid vector]

ohh thats good at least

are u guys hiring interns by chance

https://tenor.com/view/happy-happy-dog-dog-happiest-dog-super-happy-gif-17885812

[graceful scaffold]

The folks that may know the technical details of a bug aren't the same ones handling communication

[fluid vector]

that makes sense

[graceful scaffold]

So full-cycle acknowledgement, investigation, probable fix, testing, integration, and then final confirmed patch cycle is a tooooooon of time spent just talking back and forth

across many different individuals responsible for each part of that process

[fluid vector]

itd be nice to acknowledge the threads that are big though

or have been open for a while

i know its a war of attrition

[graceful scaffold]

Ok doggo really does want to walk now, I've gotta jump for real

[fluid vector]

sure it might take 10 seconds to reply but multiply that by 200 and thats a lot of hours

[graceful scaffold]

Peace y'all ❤️

[fluid vector]

see ya <3

dm me if ur hiring project management interns btw

[graceful scaffold]

The challenge is finding someone that CAN reply and also has the right information

[fluid vector]

im so real

[graceful scaffold]

Not often the same individual

[fluid vector]

ahh

gotcha

[queen minnow]

I do this for work, if you’re not already in it, run.

[fluid vector]

i wanna do it tho

:(

[fresh hemlock]

Best PS I guess, if that matters to you. PS is great and all for a tool to track your progresss but doesn't encompass the gist of the match. I'd rather go for the W and have 60 PS.But you didn't see them NOT rotate for ganks or NOT team up for objectives. They chased the kills, got killed. Bout it.

[graceful scaffold]

I was going by kill participation, KDA, CS/min, etc.

Obviously I can only look at those from a screenshot and you're right that it's not the whole story of a game

but it does suggest they're at least not wildly out of place, right?

The question can't be "are they the best and do our playstyles mesh perfectly", but rather "do they reasonably seem like they fit at the general level of that match?"

[rare quarry]

how does mmr 1617 tell anything about "general level" if only wins and loses influence the mmr?

the amount of money stored in my bank account doesn't say I do good finance decisions. The value is just a snapshot of current situations. I top up my account, and redact from my account. There is no clue about my finance skills if you just look at the snapshotted number.

[vague ridge]

.

[jolly cairn]

You can’t be serious

[slim wave]

Have u read any of the thread??

[jolly cairn]

His premise is also totally wrong and doesn’t support the position he’s holding in the convoluted example he gave. But at this point I can’t engage him any further. Not everyone can be helped

[slim wave]

All that guy does is do clown reactions icl lmao

[tulip perch]

the irony, cos all he has is clown takes

[rare quarry]

You can't read and think well enough, obviously. The reasons given here for the current match quality are all about a single value named internal MMR.

Bla bla bla can't predict X, can't predict Y, you have to live with that.

So the reason for bad matches is that the algorithm uses not enough data.

The solution presented is not to add more parameters aka more data, instead is to play more, and eventually the match quality improves as the single value-based algorithm places players better in fitting matches.

No argument was given, how that single value-based algorithm can improve match quality just by playing more.

Importing all Omeda City data, filtering for ranked matches only, we have already more than 1 million ranked games. Has anything improved? Will it improve with the next 1 million matches?

Now my bank account example comes to play, which stresses you a bit much, but it's the same situation. The bank trying to figure if I'm worthy of a bigger credit just by looking at my current bank statement doesn't give them enough data to make that decision.

The match making algorithm, on the other hand, just tries to do that. Am I worthy of a quality match is decided by a snapshot of a single value → internal MMR.

We are reaching 3000 messages on that thread, and clowning is all that is left because letting others think is easier than thinking for yourself.

[marsh oak]

Your bank account example is moot, if a bank holds significant sums of a persons money they will very likely provide a large credit line to that person. Unfortunately, because most people are poor and don't have significant sums of money in your own bank account, potential creditors need to assess your viability using a credit score... It's a useless comparative

[slim wave]

Win rate works with more games played because as you play more games, the good and bad teammates balance out, leaving only your skill to determine your win rate, and therefore determine your mmr

And yes it absolutely has improved. If you played at the start of ranked especially, it was quite literally a shit show

And the bank account thing doesn't make sense.
Because banks will look at your banking history, not your current bank balance. Which is how this system works, it looks at all your previous games and gives you an mmr value based on that

[marsh oak]

Credit score goes up if you pay your debts (win), credit score goes down if you dont pay your debts (lose)

[tulip trout]

Still a shit show, judging by my own and multiple of my friends experience every second or third game someone goes afk or is trolling either on my or the enemy team. Most of the time people who have under 5 ranked games under their belly 😉

[slim wave]

Then I'm guessing your mmr is about average for a new ranked player
And mm isn't magic, it can't predict if someone will troll or go afk or play badly, and just decide to put them on a specific team

[wispy saffron]

Yeah it's almost time to lock this forum post

[vague saffron]

Just get better

Lots of guides out there

Game is really simple overall

Main 1 character, learn the macro off that, memorize macro, start learning new heros

Macro is prob 70% of the game tbf. If not more

U get auto filled play utility based characters instead of hard carrys

You will get people that are off a game or not great, it averages out.

[solid marlin]

I feel like the best way to handle this with the low playerbase we have, I feel like the game should focus on making balanced matches 1st. Once it finds all 10 players and makes a balanced game it just starts from the top:

the highest mmr (or rank whichever you decide to use) person gets their highest priority role,

the 2nd highest the system goes, is the highest priority taken yes or no, if yes, then assigned the second priority role.

The third highest the system goes, is the highest prioritity taken, (checks highest rank = no) (checks second highest rank = yes) then is second priority taken (checks highest rank = yes) then person will be set to a randomized role of the remaining roles. If checking second highest = no then assign second priority to person.

The above steps repeat for the 4th and 5th person. Each time the system checks all players with higher MMR (or Rank whichever is used) to find if their priority roles are taken.

I feel like this would be much simpliar then having a matchmaking system that tries to calibrate teams based on role queue in our current playerbase. That way queue times do not get longer but you still have a better chance at getting your role.

[graceful scaffold]

That way queue times do not get longer but you still have a better chance at getting your role.
Does it really though? If you assume players are randomly distributed into games where they could be anywhere from lowest to highest, they have only a 1/5 chance of being the top player and being guaranteed their role.

If the fundamental goal is to limit cases where players end up in roles they don't want, then forcing whoever is lowest MMR into a role they didn't pick doesn't seem to make ground on that goal.

[solid marlin]

Your not wrong, but there is a goal to increasing your MMR, and in theory they shouldnt be lowest MMR in every game they play right

or just use rank instead of mmr

[graceful scaffold]

Nope, it should always be randomly distributed except for the tippy top and the very bottom

let's say you're 1000

you could get in a match where it goes from 1000 to 1100 and you're the lowest, or 900 to 1000 and you're the highest

same thing if you're 1800, you could be in a match from 1800 to 1900 where you're the lowest, or 1700 to 1800 where you're the highest

[solid marlin]

exactly so if you do it based on MMR then there will be games where they are the lowest mmr and may not get the role they want (or they still might)

bc some games they might be the highest some game they might be the lowest

but this way it wont increase queue times

[graceful scaffold]

right right it wouldn't increase queue times

but if you're taking the team-mixing part out of it and just handing a system the keys to decide who plays what role, I just think it's got potential downsides where people get "stuck" with a role they hate

[solid marlin]

and with doing it this way if you want you could allow players to set all 5 roles to a priority i prefer getting adc then mid then jungle etc. and just set the checks to check every level and whichever level is available first is the one they get

so even if your lowest rank, you might get your 3rd priority

[graceful scaffold]

the problem is those preferences aren't evenly distributed

[solid marlin]

ofc

but you cant fix that

[graceful scaffold]

right now, we give you time to sort everything out with your team and in chat

[solid marlin]

someone has to play that role

[graceful scaffold]

so folks that are happy to fill will fill

[solid marlin]

if you dont auto fill people into the lowest role then there is no fix

[graceful scaffold]

or maybe I like mid and offlane almost equally but I like mid a tiny bit more

I pref mid, even though I'd be totally happy to play offlane

a pure stack-rank system doesn't account for those nuances

while a dynamic team draft period does

[solid marlin]

you mean what we have now?

[graceful scaffold]

yessir

keep in mind, I'm not saying it's perfect

not close to saying that

[solid marlin]

yea i mean i dont hate the system we have now but people still get stuck to roles they hate

there is no fix

[graceful scaffold]

well, I would argue not that often

how often do you REALLY end up in your 5th choice role, if you're actively using chat and trying to be open to other options

like maybe if you decide to ride-or-die on a 50/50 without using chat you can

[solid marlin]

well console using chat is really difficult unless they have a keyboard plugged in

[graceful scaffold]

this is just me brainstorming, but here's some whiteboard ideas

[solid marlin]

so they wont be using chat

[graceful scaffold]

yep you're totally right and that's a fair call, but bear with me

[solid marlin]

most people just get the 50/50 and let it auto fill

then you have people who even in paragon games get auto filled and go F this and play iggy support

[graceful scaffold]

1. "I would be open to" as a selector option. Single button press that says "I can take this role too if needed", different from the role you pick as the one you're trying to get.

2. Preferentially match teams together based on their role preferences, but still have the pre-draft mixing process.

So like, role queue but invisible

and still with the open swapping phase

[solid marlin]

you also dont have infinite time to discuss swapping and stuff

i guess once you add the feature to swap roles and heros then you will have more time

but its still not unlimited

[graceful scaffold]

that's true

always constraints

I'm just trying to maximize good and limit bad

[solid marlin]

right if you just assign roles based on a preferred selection

this means as soon as people get into game they can start negotiating

OH i got support i am not very good does anyone else like this

then they can swap

[graceful scaffold]

There is a "yes, but..." to that

[vague saffron]

gimme role que.