Ashbringer on Bruisers

[indigo ferry]

Builds are starting to emerge that are making use of Ashbringer on characters like Khaimera. The benefits are obvious, and I want to drum up some discussion if we think this is going to give way to new meta on characters like Khaimera and Grux. If we review what it gives you, we have the following:
30 Physical Power - Seems like a fair bit. Mutilator (which seems to be the sort of golden standard for Bruiser items, right now) gives 40. Bonesaw gives 25. Sky Splitter gives 25. So power seems good.
25 Attack Speed - This seems the standard amount of attack speed. Sky Splitter builds the same amount, while Augmentation builds 40.
10 Ability Haste - Good extra, and standard amount to be added in most cases.
20 Crit Chance - For the purposes of bruisers, this is a bit superfluous. Unless you build another ADC item, which I could see happening, but that also pushes you into 2 items with no defense stats. Dangerous as a bruiser. In any case, nice addition that will occasionally work.

Clockwork - .25 sec CDR on basic hits, doubled on crits. - Here is the big selling point. On characters like Khaimera, you will virtually eliminate the cooldown on Unleash. Yes, you already do that once Unleash is level 5, but this will expedite the process. But more importantly, you are bringing up Ambush and ESPECIALLY Invigorate faster. Having quicker access to Invigorate could be a game changer. So this particular passive obviously makes it good on Khaimera. Open to thoughts on others. I wonder if Grux's Double Pain would do the .5 seconds?
Honed Strikes: 20 bonus damage on-hit - This is a big deal on both Grux and Khaimera. Grux will increase his burst pretty heavily with this, as it will work on Double Pain.
Desolate - Ignore 25% armor - This just helps you burst faster. Always good.

So what can we come up with here?

Mutilator
Ashbringer

seems a good start. From there, we probably need defense and stustain. Raiment or Draconum would be a good move. Anyway, thoughts?

[slim arch]

I usually build Crunch Jungle with Mutilator -> Augmentation -> Ashbringer into situtational Items. This gives you the ability to weave in an ability between pretty much every attack once you have three items, even on this high of an attack speed. This also leads to the Augmentation passive basically always being on cooldown.

[amber radish]

I did mutilator, Draconum, Ashbringer, bonesaw and basalisk in my last jungle game. I was pretty ahead so didnt feel anymore defence/sustain was necessary. It was a fun game but couldn't put it down to having ashbringer as I was already pretty fed by the time I finished draconum.

Not tried it on Khai yet, done really play him THAT much but I will deffo be giving it a whirl next time.

[deft solar]

Ashbringer is the only thing keeping Khaimera viable at all

but Ashbringer is giga bloated so is he really viable at all?

it also gives him access to carry itemization, which is probably the strongest sect in the item store

[hybrid scarab]

I personally think a card like resolution compliments really well. Heres why:

you deal 3% of you max mana as bonus physical damage on-hit and once resolution hits 400 mana or 50 stacks you gain 2.5% of your bonus mana as crit chance.

• At 600 max which is very low if you build into other mana cards. You deal 45 + (600 * 0.03) = 63 power from one card. If you build more mana you scale even harder
• The card also give you 20 + (0.025 * 400) = 30 extra crit chance which really helps with ashbringer

[indigo ferry]

Khaimera is one of the strongest junglers right now. Saw him A LOT

[agile marsh]

I've gone ashbringer->mutilator->rainment->salvation->(depends on the game) a lot recently on khai, and it allows me to easily contest with those higher level than me, it feels like the perfect amount of damage and sustain with a lil extra room to build against who you're playing against, usually ends up being antiheal for me

[deft solar]

lol

i would disagre

khai's lvl 2 ganks are garbage

no hard cc and no burst

doesnt spike lvl 3 like feng or rampage either for ganks

his invade potential is poor because his lvl 2 is weak

had a decently strong ulti, but so does every other jg lol

he also doesnt have any must strong first items other than ashbringer

[indigo ferry]

I mean, the last tournament saw him and Rampage almost exclusively in jungle. He actually has all of the things you're saying he doesn't have. Most teams are using Khaimera in their scrims, because he's still super viable. Not sure what other points can be made, here. Until Grux and Stell start seeing more time in jungle and less time in lane, he's going to remain a top level jungler. And Grux/Steel are just too strong not to put in lane. And Feng Mao is a very niche pick right now.

[terse plume]

Being a jungler isn't all about early ganks. Teamfight prowess is important too, which is why I think Khai is in a fine spot right now. Hes much better than Feng, Kallari, Rik, Countess, and Sev for JG. He's rlly only worse than Grux who is just way too good atm at everything. And he's about even with steel because steel is better at ganking and in teamfights but farms much slower and takes forever to take objectives like towers or fang without the full team

I'm not sure you play or are good at khai if you think he's bad at invading early as well. I think the only person he loses to in an early 1v1 in grux? And probably not even then because grux heals poorly off of camps so he may have a health disadvantage when you get to him

[indigo ferry]

I've seen lvl 1 Kallari take him at red Buff, but they usually need to steal the buff to do it.

[terse plume]

I mean yes. If the kallari stealths in and steals your red buff and hits lv 2 and you get nothing and are lv 1 then they can beat you

[indigo ferry]

Right. Outside of that, I agree. I think people still carry the stigma Khaimera had in Paragon, where he was basically only a pubstomping hero. He's way more useful in Predecessor. Some of that is the new kit, and some of that is items better suited for him play style.

[little beacon]

On Khaimera you are better off getting Sky Splitter over Mutilator while Mutilator is good it doesn't have the kill potential of Sky Splitter not to mention the healing pair this up with Ashbringer and his Q will melt anything in the game while allowing you out heal a Countess.

My Build usually consist of Resolution > Sky Splitter > Ashbringer > Raiments > Tainted Blade.

[indigo ferry]

Is it a noticeable difference? They build pretty similar stats and the passives are pretty similar as well.

[little beacon]

and Liberator for Double Cleanse

Mutilator and Sky Splitter?

[indigo ferry]

Yes.

Both do % dmg, and heal.

[little beacon]

Sky Splitter gets 50% of the damage dealt from its bonus as health

[indigo ferry]

50% of the 5% ticks.

[little beacon]

you get 100 back per each hit till 40% health essentially

[indigo ferry]

Is that better than the Omnivamp and 5% off abilities?

[little beacon]

yes it is better than omnivamp

you get a chunk of health back now if you are building tank Khaimera then you are better off with Mutilator

[indigo ferry]

This clearly needs testing. I'll take a swing at it in practice once I get signed on later. Though the Steel dummy is a bad candidate, since it has an inflated health pool.

[little beacon]

Doesnt need testing I have played over 280 hours of Khaimera

Yes I have been playing nothing but khai since the game released

[indigo ferry]

See I tend to build Bruiser. I prefer things that build health. I'm not sold on Mutilator or Sky Splitter. I think Bonesaw or Basilisk are going be interesting with this. Or just start Draconum.

[little beacon]

and dear lord was mutilator broken back then I really miss the 300+ HP/s build I had

I tried those items and they arent good on him minus Bonesaw when the enemy team has no regen tank I usually go for that mostly to troll

Basilisk is good on paper and allows you to keep consistent 500 damage throught the whole health bar.

but it waste a slot for an item that can gran survivability like Raiments

while Sky Splitter can achieve a similar effect at the start of an enemies health bar

[indigo ferry]

That's why you take both!

I'm thinking Basilisk, Ashbringer, Raiment

This gives a good amount of health while keeping damage relevant.

[little beacon]

thats only slightly more health than my build

with less sustain and initial damage

[indigo ferry]

From there, probably aTainted Item. If you feel you don't need it, Legacy and Salvation and Draconum and Unbroken Will should be good follow up candidates.

[little beacon]

I would go Leviathan

it's really good now

[indigo ferry]

Only helps if you are against Countess.

Unbroken Will better in most situations.

[little beacon]

not really also good against most midlaners

but yeah I need to try unbroken

I barely ever need it since I always build double cleanse

[indigo ferry]

Unbroken Will would work better than Leviathan against all midlaners except Gideon. Maybe Fey, too. But the rest have displacement or hard CC that will trigger Unbroken Will.

[little beacon]

ok

[indigo ferry]

The sustain from Unbroken Will is higher than Leviathan

[little beacon]

Also do you know that Resolution gives you 35% crit with one item

[indigo ferry]

I'm not playing Khai for crit. So unlikely in going to build Resolution.

[little beacon]

Its mostly for Ashbringer

[indigo ferry]

I'm not a fan of Assassin Khai. I don't think he's great for that role.

[little beacon]

Assasin Khai?

That's a thing

[indigo ferry]

Yes.

[little beacon]

Ive tried Malady and its just not that good on him

the only reason I go crit is to get massive healing from Sky Splitter

[indigo ferry]

Assassin Khai usually goes ADC items. Like Resolution and Sky Ripper.

[little beacon]

OK I never play him like an assasin I usually go balls blazing after the enemy trading blows until one of us dies

Usually the guy trying to outheal the Khaimera

I have been thinking of going Wardens Faith as my fifth item for the anti crit is it any good?

but I dont want to miss out on tainted items

[indigo ferry]

Yes, Wardens Faith is good, and would synergize with Ashbringer really well.

[little beacon]

If I can get a match where the enemy team doesn't surrender by the time I get my third T3 I will try it out.

[terse plume]

Sleeping Valley build is good, but pretty squishy, I'll only build that if I have another tanky character but very similar to what I'll build. Reso really needs nerfs

[indigo ferry]

Agreed on all points.