Team Fortress 2 Megathread - winter is the most chill time of year

[broken thistle]

https://airlied.blogspot.com/2023/04/fedora-38-llvm-vs-team-fortress-2-tf2.html

lol

[mystic turtle]

Besides, it would break every custom hud in existence
There would be quite some backlash

[limpid panther]

turns out the demo file I used that was recorded on TC2 with high cmdrate crashes to main menu randomly on TF2, so I will need a new demo to use

if anyone has a demo that is representative of casual gameplay, containing everything from explosions, to gibs, to hats, to fire, to ragdolls, etc, etc, please send it to me

it also has to have all that stuff in a short period, preferably 20~30 seconds

[rare creek]

malware

[lean cove]

thats not a good reason to skip it

[paper sluice]

If tf2 did get panorama it would be nice to have like vgui be enabled for compatibility with old huds at least

[crisp cedar]

if tf2 gets panorama ill eat a shoe

[left sand]

i dont think it would be possible

[rare creek]

tf2 already has panorama

hl2_src/public/panorama

[smoky notch]

oh true!

[rare creek]

https://tenor.com/view/troll-troll-face-gif-25116980

[high current]

Wait Hightower has a pyroland skin?👀

[paper sluice]

Like if a hud were detected in the custom folder with an old version it wouldn’t be able to switch to vgui on launch?

Cuz that’s how I imagined it

If it were to be possible

[spare obsidian]

that's not how it works

[paper sluice]

How does it work

[next nymph]

then you have to maintain two systems in parallel instead of just the one

[paper sluice]

Yeah
I wasn’t really saying like maintain vgui just like keep the last version accessible somehow for old huds to use
Like a fallback basically for those old ones

[potent wolf]

They would still have to maintain it to make sure new changes don't break the code

ultimately the reason they would switch to panorama would be to make it easier for the devs to make changes, not harder

[paper sluice]

Damn

[potent wolf]

Those are just headers, they aren't used anywhere inside the tf2 codebase.

[rare creek]

I know

[hushed basin]

It took me a hot minute to process what was going on, when it clicked I felt like a pigeon (or a horse)

[jagged pawn]

wait this is sick. both the pyroland skin and the panorama

[jagged pawn]

I mean this is true of pretty much every major update, it's an inevitability of an evolving game

[jagged pawn]

LMAO I was about to switch to fedora, holding off now

[potent wolf]

Wait isn't lavapipe the software renderer

ohhh i see

that's silly

[spare obsidian]

this, beside the tf2 community is know to backlash for the dumbest things that the TF Team does, so yeah here i can say, who the fuck cares

[limpid panther]

https://demos.tf/edit

what a great tool!

you can cut a demo file so that you don't spend a long time fast fowarding and it almost always works!

[broken thistle]

three's also "demoman" for managing demo files which is neat

[summer steeple]

idk if i'm just not thinking or if this just makes 0 sense

[small siren]

*idk if i'm

just not thinking or if this

just makes 0 sense*

- fiend@fiendroom

[summer steeple]

like how is it that it doesn't equal the origin if when i read it, its the literal exact same thing

apparently the answer is that i cannot check if vectors are equal, as it just does these kind of things by handle

so i need to do separate checks for XYZ myself

[potent wolf]

is there a VectorEqual function or something?

[summer steeple]

no

[potent wolf]

You could just make one i guess?

[summer steeple]

i use a library already which apparently has a function for it but i just tried it and

problem with debugging it

[potent wolf]

wtf

is it on github?

[next nymph]

auto format

[summer steeple]

yeah

i'm checking the source now

hopefully i can figure it out

cool thats not helpful

[potent wolf]

Are you sure it's actually a vector you're passing it?

[summer steeple]

yes but i'm double checking

creating a vector just for this

oh i think i see

i'm not doing a null check

[potent wolf]

If null, set it to (0, 0, 0)

[summer steeple]

I'm legit probably going to do that

ok i did something better than that

[potent wolf]

phew

[summer steeple]

slightly better

menacingly stopped rotating to face me

(intentional)

altho uh, its not supposed to rotate on 2 axes

[potent wolf]

zero out one of the axis for rotation?

[summer steeple]

ok here's the weird thing about this

func_rotating is only supposed to rotate on 1 axis

[potent wolf]

oh

[summer steeple]

and it did... until it didn't

ok well unfortunately I think i'm going to need to forgo "StopAtStartPos" for now and unfortunately be at the mercy of tickrate for rotation

[potent wolf]

[grim parcel]

holy shit, finally a reason to use native tcmalloc

[lean cove]

does arch mesa not use llvm 16 yet

or is it statically linked

why does tf2 work

[rare creek]

does anyone know why the textures keep exploding

[jagged pawn]

you're using puddin's config

[grim parcel]

if you still want to, this should be workaround
you can just replace SDL2.i686 with gperftools-libs.i686 and /usr/lib/libSDL2-2.0.so.0 with /usr/lib/libtcmalloc_minimal.so.4
https://docs.mastercomfig.com/latest/os/linux/#fixing-bugs-with-newer-sdl2

and of course delete tf2's version

[jagged pawn]

noted

ty

[rare creek]

linux moment

[rare creek]

even after mat_reloadmaterials and mat_reloadtextures it still looks like this

[summer steeple]

this looks like mat_fullbright 2?

i think?

[rare creek]

huh

when did I enable fullbright 😭

thanks you so mcuh

[summer steeple]

when did you enable fullbright 2 lmao

[rare creek]

i havr no idea...

[summer steeple]

cause fullbright 2 shows the lighting and only the lighting

[grim parcel]

does anyone think i should add this back to the docs btw? it was there before but i removed it since it was literally pointless til now

i think it's a good idea, but if valve fixes it first idk

[small siren]

*i think it's a good

idea, but if valve fixes

it first idk*

- getchoo

[grim parcel]

i don't want another nvidia driver situation where right after a pr gets merged i have to make another one like "haha jk nevermind"

[spare obsidian]

@ mcoms

[orchid sorrel]

~~https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mobocracy_(mission)#Stat_changes~~

steam://connect/96.244.7.85:27050
playing mvm if anybody wants in
6/6

[left sand]

see...

i envisioned this

and you griefed my page

[grim parcel]

it is actually funny

i remember when we first were talking about it and you said it was good because it has great backwards compat

[left sand]

linux libraries don't break userspace challenge

[grim parcel]

ironic how now a non backwards compatible(?) version is as fix

i forget what pushed me to actually remove it though

let me check

LOL

omfg

it was because a new version crashed the game

shit

i wonder if that’s still happening

because if it is, valve themselves will probably need to fix this (since newer native libraries from fedora or whoever implements llvm 16 won’t be compatible)

unless you compile it yourself with llvm 16 ig

@unborn pecan could you try to run tf2 with tcmalloc from gperftools 2.9.1 or higher?

like just tcmalloc and sdl if you have it pinned too
no native runtime shenanigans

[unborn pecan]

no

[grim parcel]

[unborn pecan]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/863102954965696513/1087166332778336276/attachment-133_1.gif

gay jumpscare

[grim parcel]

ugh

someone remind me to do it later

[summer steeple]

@grim parcel try to run tf2 with tcmalloc from gperftools 2.9.1 or higher

[next nymph]

https://tenor.com/view/5g-changed-transformation-tf-5g-users-gif-19734358

[summer steeple]

it is 1 minute later

[grim parcel]

ty

FUCK

nixos doesn't have llvm 16

[unborn pecan]

https://tenor.com/bTba0.gif

[grim parcel]

this will be so much fun

ok there's at least a pr for it lol

[paper sluice]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2965195337&searchtext=

cool map

never seen a theme like this for a tf2 map

[lean cove]

@grim parcel with arch lib32-gperftools 2.10-1 tf2 launches and runs properly (i just deleted tf2 lib)

arch isn't on llvm 16 tho

so much for a bleeding edge distro..............

[left sand]

me when i ask the arch maintainers to compile something

https://tenor.com/view/angry-birds-gif-21043131

[spare obsidian]

imagine not using chaotic aur

[lean cove]

chaotic aur sux

[spare obsidian]

ehhh i mean, if you're lazy fatass and don't want to compile your shit by yourself

i guess its fine

[lean cove]

i say this for no reason btw

[spare obsidian]

ik

[orchid sorrel]

steam://connect/96.244.7.85:27080
Playing Medieval MVM if anybody wants in
6/6

[grim parcel]

oh awesome, thanks for letting me know, it'll make my life easier

[small siren]

*oh awesome, thanks for

letting me know, it'll make

my life easier*

- getchoo

[grim parcel]

im going to try and compile a version statically against llvm 16 and then find someone on fedora 38 to be a test subject

[rare creek]

did yall kno that "exec userconfig.cfg" runs when you click apply on the options menuj before host_writeconfig

but only on the keyboard menu

this is the only time userconfig.cfg is mentioned in the code

this file isn't even in the game

userconfig.cfg literally doesnt exist by default

and this is the only time where it appears in code

have fun with this conpletlyl useless information!

The hidden cvar tf_store_stamp_donation_add_timestamp is used to remember the last time the mann co store asked for you to donate a stamp at checkout, theoretically you can just set this to 100 billion or whatever and never get asked to pay for a stamp

did you know that you can use host_writeconfig config.cfg full to write out all archived cvars (even if they are default)

bet you didn't because the only time it will tell you that is if you are using the command wrong :p

if you specify -replay as a command line parameter, tf2 will execute replay.cfg on startup

it seems that if you have nav_edit 1, the game will exec a map_edit.cfg when an outdated node graph is rebuilding

[rare creek]

oopsies

vlave moment

[rare creek]

(this bug is so minor im pretty sure nobody has ever even triggered it before)

[rare creek]

pro tip, set your fov so wide that your camera plane intersects with the world and breaks the skybox 💀

get free wallhack anywhere you go! (except on servers with sv_restrict_aspect_ratio_fov set to 2)

[rare creek]

me resisitng the urge to react with nerd emoj

[left sand]

you literally just sent like 100 messages about stuff you found out..

[next nymph]

did you know that +showscores and +score do the same thing, and therefore you can alias +showscores "+score; ..." to change the behavior of opening the scoreboard without needing to bind anything

[rare creek]

you can right click on empty slots in the scoreboard and click mute to mute yourself

[wintry marlin]

does that actually mute yourself

[rare creek]

yeah

[wintry marlin]

what does muting yourself do

[rare creek]

it hides your chat messages

[wintry marlin]

and voice chat too?

[rare creek]

i mean idk

[wintry marlin]

my guess it's "mute yourself but for yourself only"

[rare creek]

I mean yeah

[wintry marlin]

ears don't know what mouth says

[rare creek]

xd

[rare creek]

rare unlocalized string

[lean cove]

ive done that before it’s v annoying

[rare creek]

does cl_reload_localization_files even work properly like at all

half of the code in the source engine should have a comment that says "This shit doesn't work! Too bad!"

cl_reload_localization_files gets rid of chat english strings even if you havent changed the file

like y...

[high current]

That’s what happens when you have 10 different people write 10% of something over 10 years.
You look back at stuff you didn’t write that’s in a style of code you haven’t seen in nearly a decade and don’t know wtf is going on so you write something that happens to work and then someone else writes something elsewhere later that breaks your stuff 🤷‍♂️

Except source engine is descended from quake engine, so it’s possible that you could work at valve and be working on code that is older than you

[next nymph]

let's be frank, though, it's more like 10 different people individually write 30% of something, each

[high current]

Yeh I was just picking convenient numbers. Point is, if you didn’t do something and it’s been 10 years since anyone did something, odds are that thing is going to be hard to understand. So you can either spend a week trying to figure out why someone did it that way and have your productivity metric for that week look like dog shit on your employee review, or you can piece together something that looks like it works and call it a successful hour.

That’s why Valve is the most profitable company per employee in the world apparently🤷‍♂️
That could be wrong, I haven’t had a citation of that.

[next nymph]

I remember looking into it a bit, gabe said it but as they're a private company we kinda just have to take their word on it

[grim parcel]

very silly shounic vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7GTiBs3hRw

[high current]

I’d believe it. They have enough of a monopoly on online game sales that they don’t have to do anything and still remain the default choice if you want to buy an electronic copy of a game. Which is a pretty lucrative business.
Other than that they don’t have a set schedule for anything with games so it’s not like they really have to worry too much about paying devs overtime unless there is some overtime holiday/Sunday/whatever policy they choose to have a and allow people to work during.

Maybe their recent dives into hardware that haven’t been HUGELY successful have eaten into that claim, as that level of R&D can’t be cheap.

[next nymph]

I'm not sure if it's fair to say because, afaik, the steamdeck has been a massive success for them, and I'm not sure if they could've done the steamdeck if not for their previous hardware projects

but even then I doubt the R&D costs, even if they were complete negatives, would eat up that much of their profits

[high current]

Yeh their recent hardware has been pretty successful. I think even their recent VR partnerships were pretty successful. But their old stuff like the steam controller, steam link, or early attempts at VR weren’t particularly lucrative. Though I think all of it was mostly combined into the steam deck successfully as you pointed out.
You’re probably right that it wouldn’t hurt their profits much, but I’d assume most profitable company per employee would be a pretty competitive title, but maybe not.

Though I’m also not sure what other companies have as much a “passive” income source as Steam, so maybe that just puts them miles ahead. Which is frustrating cuz Steam isn’t all that great tbh.

[next nymph]

the closest comparisons would be the ones with the massive mobile storefronts: google, apple, etc. Except, of course, they're not small companies employee-wise

the thing with steam is that it's not good, everything else is just worse

[spare obsidian]

is crazy to think that valve after their fail of its first steam machine steam deck would became a success

[wintry marlin]

I have to give credit to valve for not just being a money sink corporation and actually doing something with their power granted by steam being the way it is. If their only job was to make sure steam works and improves that wouldn't be that impressive.

if at first you don't succeed, you try again, isn't that right?

[next nymph]

i mean, they kinda do that too

[wintry marlin]

definitely, their top row of people are conservative as hell.

I would attribute it to their organisational structure though, mostly.

[next nymph]

like yeah, they still release games sometimes and they do work on stuff like the steamdeck, but if they go nowhere and get abandoned because people dont want to work on them anymore, that happens. The only thing they need to make sure happens is steam keeps working, everything else is side projects

[wintry marlin]

which is concerning to think about.

[high current]

I think other online stores have nicer user experiences, which is all a store has to do. But Steam just had such a head start that it became the place to be for game devs and so as consumers wanting options it’s where you go.
It’s sort of the cycle of Steam is bad, but for it to get better you’d have to give up too much to be worth it.

[wintry marlin]

Is GOG really that bad, honestly

or rather is it that everyone else is too minimalistic?

[small siren]

*or rather is it

that everyone else is too

minimalistic?*

- small thing

[wintry marlin]

like they don't even compete at the same level

[high current]

Steam is like an old Honda civic in a race with a Mercedes but there’s only one driver. The Honda civic (steam) got enough of a head start, that even though there is a better option that just needs someone to get in the car, no one is going to, so steam continues to pull ahead.

[next nymph]

I moreso meant for all the annoyances and technical problems of steam as a storefront and as a game launcher, it's at least not origin or whatever else

[high current]

Oh yeh origin sucks

Epic Games Store isn’t awful, I think it’s experience as a store is better. But it’s name sucks and no one uses it because it’s just not steam.

[spare obsidian]

is more awful when you know that shit uses unreal engine for the UI

[next nymph]

gabe's psyop to get people to not use egs

[wintry marlin]

what steam stands for to me is:
-store
-reviews
-community
-workshop
-market
-gamified profile customization

most others only handle the first two at most.

with a hint of last.

[next nymph]

honestly i think just cut out the customization stuff entirely, steam is so bloated with various different personalization things that've come out over the years

[spare obsidian]

how big would be the backslash if you remove skins lol

[wintry marlin]

however, wouldn't that be appealing for a lot of people who consider steam profiles, uh, enriching? they have their own cultural phenomenon, personally they seem like neocities for people who never heard of neocities.

[next nymph]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-get-to-work-gif-21630516

[spare obsidian]

"b-but i can't my skins on steam!!!"

nostalgia is toxic

[grim parcel]

im a fan of the profile customization

[spare obsidian]

period

[grim parcel]

it can look cool

that's about it

[next nymph]

aren't there like 3 different things that serve the purpose of emoticons / stickers in chat now

[craggy ridge]

Sure!

[lean cove]

in steam chat?

[wintry marlin]

profile pictures, banners, backgrounds, emotes, showcases - artwork, workshop submissions, achievements, reviews, item showcases - I honestly can see why would some people never give that up

[next nymph]

yeah

[lean cove]

yeah theres unicode emoji + emoticons, idk what the third is?

stickers?

[next nymph]

I was thinking of emoticons + stickers + room effects

[spare obsidian]

is me or steam inventory page became, well slugish?

for tf2 for a friends 50/50 it fails to load the inventory

[wintry marlin]

inventory is easily the slowest part of steam

and the servers never work

[spare obsidian]

also there's times where for him the steam chat windows just bugs out

like it opens on black or just refuses to open

or there's times where he couldn't even closed it

[wintry marlin]

I'm not the fan of the way my steam client glitches out where it looks like it goes out of bounds.

[spare obsidian]

that's the bug he's also experiencing

[wintry marlin]

do you see how it's slightly offset to the top left and has that seam line on the opposite sides? weird.

[spare obsidian]

is stupid that in 2023 the inventory crap and a barely working steam chat has gotten proper fixes lol

bruh that's clearly dumb lol

[wintry marlin]

it happens constantly at this point and I don't know why.

it also stops me from un-maximizing the window and fixes itself when I minimize and reopen again.

[spare obsidian]

since the panorama updated to steam

steam became a buggy mess

[grim parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[wintry marlin]

I suspect this bug occurs each time I play a game in fullscreen

[spare obsidian]

bro, how many bug reports has valve got related to the inventory being uttery crap lol

[wintry marlin]

I have a crackpot dream of an established social media creating a game store platform, which would have everything that steam never explored to the fullest with its community tabs, steam groups and so on.

[grim parcel]

erm

[spare obsidian]

i remenber that steam inventory was not like this now days lol

[grim parcel]

what

[small siren]

*i remenber that steam

inventory was not like this

now days lol*

- Brodspy

[spare obsidian]

the new library and chat are writting using panorama

🗿

[wintry marlin]

how often do you use friend activity, pray tell

[grim parcel]

really? i thought that was only being used in s2

[spare obsidian]

i rarely use that

[spare obsidian]

i mean originally steam was made using vgui2 lol

so that makes sense

[grim parcel]

when i'm bored yeah
more often when im looking through my library though and there's the friends thing for the game

[spare obsidian]

i think at one point you could invoke the vgui builder on steam back in 2013 lol iirc

[grim parcel]

yeah plus panorama is literally just html/css/js

[wintry marlin]

friend activity is the center hub for social media experience, but it's so extremely isolated (to just your friend group) that it's largely unused and most seem to be unware of its existence, it seems.

[spare obsidian]

what do you expected lol

it hasn't gotten any mayor change since 2011

[wintry marlin]

I remember like in 2015 having a friend that would post artwork regularly and it would turn into an actual social media, that was honestly very interesting.

[grim parcel]

friend activity
extremely isolated (to just your friend group)
i think that might be the point

[wintry marlin]

then what would compel you to ever use it

[grim parcel]

uh

to see what my friends are doing?

having other people in that menu would give me less reason to

[spare obsidian]

you can see that on the steam friend windows

🗿

[grim parcel]

like why would i ever want to see what random people are up to

[wintry marlin]

literally the only place I think of checking to see what people are currently doing

[grim parcel]

yeah that's what it's for

[wintry marlin]

but activity is more like a log and a post timeline

[spare obsidian]

there's like 3 death features on steam

1. minimal mode

2. the mp3

3. the friends activity

[grim parcel]

also if you want to see what other people are doing

there's community activity lol

[spare obsidian]

also its 2023 and steam cloud can't hold many screenshots

even with expending money lol

[wintry marlin]

come to think of it, community activity is the place where you just see an unfiltered, streamlined dump of most arbitrarily liked posts from every single game on steam shoved at the top of the page limited to most active within last week.

the only place where I see a workshop submission for a game I never heard about next to a screenshot of lara croft

and then there's a bunch of reviews for random games

[spare obsidian]

frankly the most newest death feature from steam its the discord like shit added

[wintry marlin]

also add an unfunny steam guide

and I have a groan reaction each time I see artwork because 9 times out of 10 it's some russian reposter

because for some reason there's quite a few reposters who have a massive following on steam and get their posts pushed to the top each week.

[spare obsidian]

also its me or the chat filter crap when off doesn't make no diferrence at all

[wintry marlin]

every single random screenshot with 120 likes is just people with level 80 profile and 600 friends

[spare obsidian]

because i can still see censored text

[wintry marlin]

possibly a youtuber doing it

[spare obsidian]

that's just fucking flexing lol

[wintry marlin]

here's one example of a person who appeared at the top

steam community is honestly just, lol.

[spare obsidian]

yeah i never look st that unless i need to check out a guide

[small siren]

*yeah i never look

st that unless i need

to check out a guide*

- Brodspy

[wintry marlin]

it's a glorious dump of people living in the moment, it's really just going through the motions all day long. It's all menial information, yet it's a vibe.

You'll never find anything worth looking at in here.

It's that fantastically boring.

at worst it's deviantart for gamers.

I can say with certainty that profiles are the only thing that matter for most, the marketplace coming second for some and workshop coming third.

the guides are nice to have in a pinch but largely is a dump

like I said before, I have a dream that takes the quality, entertainment and customizability of social media and tacks on a game store on top of it.
These aren't incompatible with one another.
I just find that one has to come before the other, or possibly evolve together at once.
In that sense, doesn't this make me a visionary?

I'm off.

[wintry marlin]

miiverse.

god is dead.

[spare obsidian]

steam should let us refund a game tjat was remove from the store tbh

[wintry marlin]

I have like 10 removed games

[spare obsidian]

i have one that was removed because of funny permanent EGS exclusivity

i can't no longer buy its dlcs

nor find a way to do so

[wintry marlin]

mine are just old, dead franchises.

and rpgmaker junk.

and some incest and loli visual novels gifted to me circa 2018 or earlier.

[spare obsidian]

like refund policies should be valid forever if the game was removed for x and y reason

[wintry marlin]

I agree with that.

since it's effectively denied service anyway.

also, goes without saying.

Never say you're not good enough to make games.

[summer steeple]

yoooo hentai arena holy pussy

[spare obsidian]

i think i would manually send an email to steam support

the game i own is tricking useless because the only way i could get the dlcs

is by buying it twice

🤷

[left sand]

yeah personally EGS as a store is better IMO

like for example one thing is it auto refunds you

if you buy a game

and it goes on sale

like just no interaction from you

epic just sends you the money

and epic supports some payment providers which steam does not, but it varies from country to country who has better support

currency conversion on epic is much better

afaik

and upgrades/buying editions and such, its way smoother on epic

[small siren]

*and upgrades/buying

editions and such, its way

smoother on epic*

- mcoms

[spare obsidian]

idk, epic games just its ehh

like the example i gave of them denying the service for users on steam who bough a game on steam

[left sand]

hm?

[spare obsidian]

i have an issue atm where i can't refund a game because i'm literally stuck with it lol since the game in question is fallguys

i can't refund it because i buy it before i bough a new pc that i got 3 weeks later

and for my sorprise the game also got EGS exclusive'ed

[paper sluice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7GTiBs3hRw

[summer steeple]

menacingly turning

currently breaks if i move the other direction tho (you can see this at the end)

unfortunately its precision is limited to how little it can turn in a single tick

[summer steeple]

fixed

minor issue

[next nymph]

just stick some slopes up at the top and call it a day

if people wanna surf off the fiendbot, let them

[summer steeple]

I probably will make it retarget if the player is within the bbox

but rn it just forcefully targets the listen server host for debug reasons

[next nymph]

but how will you see surfing on a rotating platform then?

think of the surf map potential

[rare creek]

what was that program that gives you really smooth fps in tf2?

[next nymph]

mastercomfig

[rare creek]

I mean fps cap, like fixes tf2's built in fps cap

[high current]

You can use nvidia’s built in fps cap and it’s pretty good. RTSS is probably the most popular fps limiters for fps limiter snobs (and other things).

The reasoning behind using a limiter can dictate what “good enough” is.
If you want to set a limit so you aren’t maxing out your hardware and encountering bottlenecks that might increase input latency, or want to stop your components from getting needlessly hot from excessive load, the Nvidia’s is good enough IMO. It’s also convenient if you have an Nvidia gpu.
If you think you have the inhuman ability to perceive the difference between fractions of milliseconds in frame timings, then 1: no you can’t, and 2: then RTSS is the most stable frame limiter readily available that I’m aware of.

That being said I use RTSS because stability and it has other useful things to monitor metrics with.

[rare creek]

rtss is very good for eliminating microstutter in some games

[next nymph]

the true measure of a project's scale is the number of typos in method names

[rare creek]

How do I get 10 bit color in tf2

🙏

[rare creek]

you cant it's hardcoded to 8 bit color

sosad

tho I doubt that changign just that line would do much you'd probabl have to also mess with directx shader device manager or whatever to set the image format there tooo

I thinjk that would be a good idea for patch pack is to include a lunch ooption that puts it to 64 bit per pixel

so the code in the shader ddevice always returns 8 bit if you have more than 8 bit because microsoft moment

[rare creek]

native vulkan port for tf2 when.......

[summer steeple]

didn't pazer do a project like that at some point

not like, flawless, i think he just used it as an excuse to learn vulkan a bit

https://github.com/PazerOP/TF2Vulkan

altho it'll probably never happen in the actual game

because dxvk will work good enough

[left sand]

10 bit is HDR

i think youre just misunderstanding a bunch of concepts

[rare creek]

source engine doesnt have real hdr

[left sand]

youre acting really dumb rn

what even are you trying to say

[rare creek]

am i not allowed to act dumb

[rare creek]

I have a 10 bit monitor i would like tf2 to use it to its full capacity

[left sand]

not when you make false statements and assertions that are misleading

you answered your own fucking question

Source does not support HDR anyway

[rare creek]

woudl vbe cool if it did

[left sand]

you can use auto HDR

also you're mixing up color depth concepts

[rare creek]

wait my monitor is 10 bit but it doesnt support hdr

[small siren]

*wait my monitor

is 10 bit but it doesnt

support hdr*

- 👑 Lucifer

[left sand]

fail

[rare creek]

I clicked on the display setting in the settings menu and the entire thing crashed I think windows is trying to kill itself

I will kill someone

does the desktop color depth being 32 mean that the output color depth cant even be taken advantage of

[left sand]

these are just color mappings afaik

[rare creek]

tf2 wioth a hue rotation of 90 degrees is aweosme it makes the blu team into pink

[warped plume]

when my emesis is blue

[rare creek]

https://youtu.be/WZG5STXQ4FY

[lean cove]

wtf you don’t need 64bpp

nothing uses that

32bpp is enough for 10 bit color

cause commonly used is a2r10g10b10 or a similar YUV format

[lean cove]

no? 10 bit color is just more color depth, I use my monitor with 10b c in sdr

[left sand]

framebuffers yeah

[high current]

Different conversation: but I’m not a fan of HDR for gaming.
Most games don’t feel very intentional about it so it’s just sorta “that shadow over there? Now you can’t see there! Isn’t it cool!”
Even for media consumption it’s a little hit or miss. Unless something is meant to be truely black/underexposed or inhumanly bright, it probably looks less realistic in HDR than non HDR.
Also the markup on HDR supported hardware is worse than Gsync markup.

[left sand]

destiny hdr is really good

[high current]

I’ve also heard doom eternal has good hdr. I guess for story driven stuff it’s probably nice, and for settings with a grungier look, like some of destiny’s scenes, it’s probably nice.
I’m not usually a fan of story driven games or single player games in general, so I’m probably not the target audience for HDR monitors.

I think the best environments for HDR would be like rubble areas with stuff on fire and then dark spaces / night time in the same scene. I also think something in a Victorian setting or steampunk could make good use of it, with scarce lanterns or lightbulbs in large internal spaces. Anything sunlit or modern is just going to have way too much residual light bouncing around in a real scenario to have that much color depth even in real life.

[radiant merlin]

engi now has payload responses

[left sand]

tf2 looks so hot with mods

[paper sluice]

What mods

[jagged pawn]

all of them

[paper sluice]

Wtf

[jagged pawn]

put the entirety of gamebanana in custom

[next nymph]

https://gamebanana.com/mods/338918

[potent wolf]

just a few mods

[paper sluice]

Toon fx 🤢

[potent wolf]

What's wrong with toon fx?

[left sand]

i override the explosions

[paper sluice]

Nothing I just personally don’t like it

[left sand]

i like the trails

[jagged pawn]

I mean nothing WRONG with it I just think it's tacky

[paper sluice]

Fair

[left sand]

idk how i feel about it yet but the trails make the rocket launcher feel way more ppowerful imo

[jagged pawn]

reflective tf2 water my beloved

[left sand]

this fire mod

seems really underused

but its so fucking good

[potent wolf]

ohh that looks nice

[jagged pawn]

wait that's sick??

do you have a link

[left sand]

https://gamebanana.com/mods/11785

https://youtu.be/ir5pEnecyQE

[jagged pawn]

that's crazy ty

[left sand]

it makes the particles match the burn material

which is awesome

also corpses

i hate the toon muzzle flashes and explosions btw

[heavy solar]

@left sand has leveled up! (65 ➜ 66)

[left sand]

they look terrible

which is why i dont use them

the laziest sprite card job ever

but the trails

especially for flares

look amazing

but im probably gonna have to tone it down

because i am playing kinda worse now

[next nymph]

maybe that means you need to tone it up, get used to it, then tone it down and be even better

[left sand]

true

im just kinda getting overloaded from parsing all the new info

because i am not used to reading these effects

ill give it a shot

[crisp cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383927930641842186/1064725668207788032/2023-01-17_03-57-36.mp4 these

[paper sluice]

😍

[hushed basin]

no engineer fp overhaul

[left sand]

Engy.vpk

[grim parcel]

when is masterpack dropping? these mods go hard

[jagged pawn]

doesn't she already have a list of mods on the site? it's not nearly as long as this but I believe there's a few

found it https://docs.mastercomfig.com/latest/customization/see_also

[high current]

Particle mods are sv_pure restricted though :(

[hybrid cloud]

i like making particles but none of them are particularly good

[next nymph]

not with that attitude

[high current]

Can you use the same technique clean tf2 uses with textures to just resize particles? Would that make them smaller or just solid?

[hybrid cloud]

resizing them makes em smaller

if you want them solid you turn off all alpha modifiers and make the specific texture as opaque as it's allowed

[next nymph]

i would have idea what would happen in sv pure without trying it

maybe its similar to textures on brushes, maybe its totally different, maybe it does nothing

[hybrid cloud]

https://gamebanana.com/mods/407215

[high current]

I wouldnt want opaque particles tho

[next nymph]

"Oh but my particle mods arent very good" about something this ballin'?

[hybrid cloud]

if you want things to look flat im guessing there would need to be specific textures made or something idk

[high current]

id want them to be smaller

[hybrid cloud]

they can be resized yea

[hybrid cloud]

aw thank you

ive bee updating these bit by bit so hopefully ill update them soon

ive got more, but most of them are meant to be seen by me only

[high current]

ooo neat they can be resized. Also nice mod, it looks good

[hybrid cloud]

thank you kindly

yea, particles can be resized and can have random sizes so it doesn't look flat

[high current]

We're talking about in sv_pure, right?

[hybrid cloud]

unfortunately no, modded particles don't work in sv_pure

[small siren]

*unfortunately

no, modded particles don't

work in sv_pure*

- pathulhu

[hybrid cloud]

i really wish they did even if just to resize them a little bit

[high current]

darn

[spare obsidian]

if you want more eye candy

turn cl_new_particleimpacts to 1

[potent wolf]

er, that convar doesn't exist...

did you mean cl_new_impact_effects?

[spare obsidian]

yeah cl_new_impact_effects

[jagged pawn]

wait this is sick??

god I wish casual wasn't so mod-restricted

[radiant merlin]

https://tf2classic.com/fight_or_flight/day1

[jagged pawn]

day 1 is so boring lol

oh boy jump pads never heard that one before

excited for the other days though. tf2c is usually hit or miss but when they hit it goes crazy

[hybrid cloud]

jump pads i used to be a supporter of in normal tf2

[small siren]

*jump pads i used to

be a supporter of in

normal tf2*

- pathulhu

[hybrid cloud]

then someone told me that it wouldn't be good because youd have classes balanced around their lack of reposition skills suddenly take flanks and push up harder than they should

idk, they worded it a lot better than i could ever do but i understand the sentiment

[left sand]

idk why things cant change

every other game has a meta shakeup at least once a year

[small siren]

*every other

game has a meta shakeup

at least once a year*

- mcoms

[jagged pawn]

I mean I'm not opposed to change but like snipers being able to be ten feet in the air standing on a lamppost is very dumb!

or just like, the obvious

[next nymph]

are there many games that have so few classes? i know games like dota or overwatch do it pretty regularly and thats the first stiff that comes to mind -- but for any given role theres multiple characters that could be played, so one becoming unmeta doesnt have huge impacts on the rest of the game. Meanwhile in tf2 if entire classes (not just individual weapons) had their viabilities changed regularly, the game wouldnt feel the same

[orchid sorrel]

i think its fair given that ur giving up the teleporter (I assume you are, at least)

teles are extremely powerful, especially for classes like heavy and medic

I wasnt rly a fan of the 4way teams, but I am curious to see how it plays out in arena

[left sand]

unlocks

and idk about "game wouldnt feel the same" no game feels the exact same but meta shakeups dont make the game lose its core identity

kinda silly for tf2 to somehow be unique and suddenly lose everything in common if the classes changed roles/power slightly

[paper sluice]

Why you hating

[left sand]

team fortress 2 classic

[orchid sorrel]

https://streamable.com/z94cps

engaging lumberjack mode

[radiant merlin]

with bullet jump you can already place a sneaky tele in an upper flank

[jagged pawn]

I love when people don't read the whole message

[paper sluice]

Nuh uh

[lean cove]

not sure what u mean

[next nymph]

I dont really think tf2 is unique in this way. I can't think of many examples in the same position -- class based, but there's pretty much only one or two classes that could satisfy any specific role that is effectively necessary to play -- but I feel like they're out there. Some MMOs I think?

I just mean that if you significantly rebalance mercy in overwatch and she goes out of meta, thats whatever. You just play other healers instead. But medic in tf2 is always gonna be played, you cant just play a different healer instead and you need a healer (short of being nerfed so hard that nobody plays healers at all, which would screw with balance even more). The game kinda assumes that you will have a healer and they'll be vaguely this powerful, and just changing balance for the sake of changing balance doesnt have as much wiggle room here.

Unless we're talking about just tweaking weapons instead of tweaking entire classes, i which case: weren't we shaking up the meta regularly anyway? Not as frequently as dota, not applying rebalancing to as many weapons at a time as dota, usually the changes were much more significant than the little number tweaking that a lot of dota rebalancing gets, and we haven't had a rebalancing pass in an update in a while-- but we were doing that, weren't we?

[next nymph]

meant to reply to this

[left sand]

there was never a decision like: we are going to make x playstyle powerful for a bit

idk i just dont see the games identity changing just because one class/subclass is stronger for a period of 6 months

maybe 6s would change but thats just a custom gamemode

[next nymph]

i mean im not really confident dota-style rebalancing is needed if we're doing it for a casual pubber audience. Maybe that just means they'd have to be more significant changes than dota does, because the relatively minor tweaks you see in dota probably wouldnt be felt by the majority of casual tf2 pubbers, idk

I've always associated "shaking up the meta with frequent balance patches" with competitive games where the community largely follows the meta, which isnt true for tf2 outside of 6s or highlander

[orchid sorrel]

the balance changes were unironically the thing i looked forward to the most with major updates

[left sand]

6s is a custom gamemode

you can do comp without it

it's what valve was aiming for

[jagged pawn]

nr6s > 6s

[left sand]

and yeah, most people distinguish major updates with balance changes

[small siren]

*and yeah, most people

distinguish major updates

with balance changes*

- mcoms

[left sand]

we've gotten maps, cosmetics in every holiday update

[craggy ridge]

asame

[next nymph]

I'm not saying it's not -- I'm saying if we focus on the pubber community, I don't see the point of shaking up the meta when the meta isnt really a thing in the pubber community, at least nowhere near the extent of other games that shake it up

[left sand]

only thing JI had was balance changes vs. the other updates

[small siren]

*only thing JI had

was balance changes vs.

the other updates*

- mcoms

[left sand]

the meta is certainly a thing in casual lol

some classes and loadouts are stronger than others

[jagged pawn]

well that and valve-made content (war paints as a concept, merc park, new weapons, etc

[left sand]

if items were reworked to be broken people would use them

[next nymph]

there's a meta in casual play but at any given time the majority of the server is probably not using the meta loadout

[left sand]

people rarely run black box anymore

when it was run almost always

in casual

because they specifically decided to nerf it

they thought it was out of place

[next nymph]

like yeah you probably wont see the sharpened volcano fragment very often, but that doesnt mean you dont see demoknights

[orchid sorrel]

Players will often run the path of least resistance.
Despite it being casual, players will naturally drift towards defensive plays like stacking engineers on defense

[left sand]

now most people run RL gunboats

[orchid sorrel]

or running multiple medics/demos/engies in dustbowl

[left sand]

im not seeing this discussion going anywhere with me tbh so im gonna leave it here

[next nymph]

yeah i think we both have our positions and see the game a certain way, and im sure we've all said basically the same stuff before

I want to make it clear that i appreciate your perspective and insight even if I'm personally not sure of it and some of what I believe differs

[hybrid cloud]

we should balance the game so the path of least resistance means pushing as much as possible

[orchid sorrel]

how can u do that when there is a team designed solely for defensive play

[radiant merlin]

valve is so dumb. they could release vscript in the smissmas update and call it a medium size update

[hybrid cloud]

the best defense is a good offense

[radiant merlin]

instead, they released it 1 week before

[craggy ridge]

"NR6s is way better" and then you play it and it's literally one of these 2 games

[jagged pawn]

huh

[hybrid cloud]

nr6s to me sounds like pubs but smaller in that if you want the game to feel in anyway enjoyable everyone wordlessly agrees to just play worse

[jagged pawn]

that doesn't happen especially when there's cash prizes

[craggy ridge]

(the joke being that it's either a stalemate or a roll)

[jagged pawn]

I think the rgl nr6s league is the best demonstration of how well it works. the only thing I don't like about it is double medic but other than that literally none of the things that people expect to happen actually happen. double demo isn't as good as everyone thinks, stacking heavies and engis on defense is a great way to lose, etc

and since there was a huge cash prize in that league people were playing with zero honor, they TRIED some bullshit it just didn't work

[hybrid cloud]

i wish it worked that well in pubs

where bullshit just doesnt work

[orchid sorrel]

also this doesnt really change the point I was making, which is that even casual players are more inclined to pick meta options if they know it's good

[hybrid cloud]

maybe it;s just the team sizes? or the lack of cash prize

[jagged pawn]

has nothing to do with size, pubs are uncoordinated

being able to push as a team is what stops heavies and sentries from being too threatening, they fall apart when they're up against a whole team

[hybrid cloud]

maybe some players, but plenty of pubbers will also pick weapons that they personally find fun regardless of meta

and then perma run them

[next nymph]

the way I'd put it is that people will broadly tend to use better weapons than worse weapons. But you'll see a ton of playstyles that frankly arent very good and a whole lot of people using mediocre weapons and people are very likely to switch to gimmicks for fun even if they're worse off for it.

It's nothing like all those games where picking something out of meta will get you yelled at and votekicked

[hybrid cloud]

pubs are so uncoordinated and the average skill level is low enough that even non meta weapons that arent particularly terrible will do just fine

[jagged pawn]

^

[orchid sorrel]

True, but I think thats moreso because the large server population means less player urgency

[hybrid cloud]

yea i think so too

[orchid sorrel]

most players are lone-wolfing it, and one demoknight wont mean much when you have 11 other people shooting the enemy gamers

[next nymph]

and thats kinda the point I've been making: I don't know if meta-shakeup-rebalancing can really be done in the same way for tf2 pubs as it can be for competitive dota

[hybrid cloud]

i would like some more player urgency in pubs but not a ton

[orchid sorrel]

well, comprehensive balance updates are basically meta shakeups

There are many staple loadouts that have come and gone as the game aged

[jagged pawn]

there are also weapons that are really strong in comp but not necessarily as good in a pub. like oh boy I'm really gonna win this game with the solemn vow lol

[orchid sorrel]

the only things that have really stayed consistent are like, stock items

[small siren]

*the only things that

have really stayed consistent

are like, stock items*

- DrCactus

[hybrid cloud]

i think it's a combination of nobody playing to win as well as just general bad coordination

[jagged pawn]

I mean this isn't true either, minigun and flamethrower come to mind

medigun too actually

[hybrid cloud]

meta shake ups dont really affect the majority of tf2 players imo unless it kills a cheesy strat that a lot of people depend on

[orchid sorrel]

tbf those are more global changes that also affected unlocks, not exclusively the stock options

[next nymph]

my memories of rebalancing updates is mostly that people would be excited for them, and then get peeved off at a few of the changes once it actually released, and then forget it happened a few days later.

I think its main value is in looking forward to it than anything it actually brings to the table

[orchid sorrel]

Brass, Natty and Tommy were all affected by the rampup changes, as well as mediguns with the speed mirror

[jagged pawn]

I'm not sure I get your point then, all guns are based on stock

[craggy ridge]

i mean those are fairly easy to balance

[orchid sorrel]

I suppose "basic class functions" is a more appropriate term

[craggy ridge]

there are only some exceptions that are a bit tricky

[hybrid cloud]

i was looking forward to what valve was gonna bring in jungle inferno and then they dropped the ball

i was a pyro main back when i started playing and i really wanted to see what kind of shake up valve would give pyro but it was just, a double edged bug fix

i thought he would finally have a solid role on the team besides "annoy people and die in the process"

[next nymph]

i dont know if its fair to bring up, but what was the last balance update that people actually liked on the whole? I hear complaints about pretty much every one but dont tend to hear "i think this update really improved tf2's balance" ever

[hybrid cloud]

i dont recall any balance patch being mostly agreed to be good ever

[cursive peak]

I don't think Summer 2013 was hated all that much?

[craggy ridge]

blue moon was goated

[small siren]

*I don't think Summer

2013 was

hated all that much?*

- Steamworks

[craggy ridge]

it just did too little

[next nymph]

a decade ago...

😦

[hybrid cloud]

if you try and satisfy gimmick weapon players then the game becomes sloggier to play but if you balance out the cheese and the jank then people will scream about how tf2 has lost its soul

[jagged pawn]

I don't think I've heard anyone complain about a balance patch on launch since gun mettle

[orchid sorrel]

every balance update had it's good changes and bad changes

[jagged pawn]

jungle inferno and blue moon were both fire

[summer steeple]

i feel like tf2's balance is not crazy enough for balance changes to really feel like "oh wow the game is so much better because of this", even if it was

[orchid sorrel]

what was important was that valve would iterate on their changes until most items were in a generally favorable spot

[hybrid cloud]

i never heard the end of people complaining that the rescue ranger took 15 metal per bolt

[next nymph]

i definitely heard a lot of complaints of jungle inferno and blue moon

[jagged pawn]

the only people complaining about this were the people using it as a crutch

every update is gonna have some idiots but that doesn't mean that the patch was disliked by the fanbase

[hybrid cloud]

jungle inferno overtuned pyro and then blue moon looped back to him dealing mid damage

[cursive peak]

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/July_10,_2013_Patch

[hybrid cloud]

those idiots are probably extremely loud then

i also recall people hating when ammo boxes dropped on death instead of consuming weapons for ammo and seeing it everywhere

[jagged pawn]

was that JI? thought that was gun mettle

[hybrid cloud]

it was gun mettle im just speaking in general

[jagged pawn]

I see

[hybrid cloud]

didnt ji also kill sandman stun?

[jagged pawn]

good! everyone hated that!

[orchid sorrel]

yes

[next nymph]

darwins...

[heavy solar]

@orchid sorrel has leveled up! (58 ➜ 59)

[orchid sorrel]

the only problem with sandman is that the current downside is too harsh

[hybrid cloud]

im also glad it's dead but it's kinda useless now lol

[orchid sorrel]

Wrap Assassin was designed to be a safer, but less effective sandman but after the JI change it kinda just became flat out better

[hybrid cloud]

crazy how balance patches do dat

i think the sandman should give a buff to the scout if he kills a beaned player but i cant think of anything that wouldnt make scout kinda overwhelming

[orchid sorrel]

tbh just swapping the health penalty with something else seems like the easiest option

[next nymph]

was it really nearly a decade since the darwin's let you win every sniper duel? My complaint calling it the worst balanced an item has ever been in tf2's history is almost in middle school?

[orchid sorrel]

yea

even before the bullet resistance change, it basically did this

[small siren]

*even before the

bullet resistance change, it

basically did this*

- DrCactus

[orchid sorrel]

+25hp meant even just a quick tap from a medigun meant you survive any quickscope 1v1

[summer steeple]

epic source engine

I put playerclip on a func_rotating for reasons

r_drawclipbrushes crashes the game with that

oh

i have made a mistake

[orchid sorrel]

[potent wolf]

it's perfect, no changes needed

[zealous pond]

Gun Mettle was good.

[spare obsidian]

what the fuck

[broken thistle]

The best part is watching linux users trying to explain why its actually not a big deal that glibc removed a certain function/ABI/API from their latest release, because the onus is on developer to update their program that they haven't touched in 20 years

[lean cove]

(that wasn't what even happened) but yeah glibc was fucking stupid for that lol

[broken thistle]

oh yeah this issue specifically with tf2, no. But ive seen the sentiment before and it usually has something to do with either dynamic linking or something maintained by the FSF/GNU

[spare obsidian]

context?

[lean cove]

removing sysv standard DT_HASH from glibc, breaking eac

for no reason

[orchid sorrel]

https://streamable.com/tilgv2

[hushed basin]

That's horrifying

[left sand]

yes exactly lmao, theres nothing competitive about normal 6s IMO

its a recreational activity

finally someone with a based opinion (agrees with me)

[jagged pawn]

LMAO

[left sand]

its worse than that. current pyro has worse close range DPS than before JI

[jagged pawn]

it's funny, in many ways tf2 is played like how people who hate melee think melee is played. no items, generalists only, process

yeah current pyro is a lot more consistent, so still imo more fun to play than before, but objectively speaking got nerfed, which is weird to think about

[orchid sorrel]

isnt a major factor to the DPS loss the weird ramp up thing

where if flames touch the envirionment they lose a chunk of dmg

[small siren]

*where if flames touch the

envirionment they lose a

chunk of dmg*

- DrCactus

[orchid sorrel]

which is why you have to aim up at tanks to deal full dmg

[hybrid cloud]

yea, isnt he bugged to ramp up even slower at point blank

[left sand]

honestly i think the wiggle was fine

well, at least the solution was overengineered vs. how big of a problem it was

[orchid sorrel]

ya

[left sand]

it was always a problem actually

on pyro

yeah it was slightly less effective before JI

but people scrutinized it way too much just because of "the pyro update"

and then an over the top solution was made for it

like why is there a heat mechanic lol

[hybrid cloud]

tick based damage and heat mechanics and all that

[orchid sorrel]

I like the idea that the longer you keep your flames on someone, the more dmg they take but the current system is really weird

[hybrid cloud]

man i wish they just fixed the networking settings and stopped

tf2c i think used a fix that kept the old per-box damage system while fixing the networking bugs

[left sand]

i think it makes sense to do tick based damage

its more reliable and stable

it gets rid of any possibility

of it having bad calculations

[lean cove]

sunshine is a bad map

mostly cause it's 5cp

[left sand]

i wish there was a reliable way to indicate a team's control of a map which is persistent throughout the course of the game

perhaps through the use of permanently destructible objectives

omg new idea

6CP

each team has 3 points

once a point is capped by the enemy, it cannot be retaken

capture speeds are reversed. the last point takes the longest, and first point takes the shortest.

[broken thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-fire-burning-gif-8869638

[left sand]

points do not decay their progress, except for the last point, which decays slowly.

players can teleport to any of their base's points still under their control.

while teleporting, you are stunned and if you take damage, your teleport is cancelled.

teleportation takes 1 second base, and each allied teleport to the same point within 20 seconds adds 1 second to the teleportation time.

teleportation can be used every 20 seconds.

[summer steeple]

too complicated for new players

fr tho sounds interesting

[left sand]

6 miniature machine bots spawn every 30 seconds from the last spawn of each team. they attack anything in their path and path towards the next available enemy capture point, and can contribute to capture progress.

[broken thistle]

the only suggestion i like is the reversal of the capture speeds

[left sand]

i mean im taking the piss rn

and talking about dota

towards the end

but yeah

i am semi serious about the beginning

[summer steeple]

yeah as soon as you said bots i was like "hold up"

[left sand]

its just

theres a backcap problem

which teleportation solves in dota

[formal dew]

robot destruction was actually a trojan horse to turn tf2 into dota 2 but the plan was aborted

[broken thistle]

i dont play MOBA's sorry lol

[left sand]

but captures need to work differently from towers

because teleportation is not valid

[formal dew]

as a tf2 fan i must either love dota 2 or despise it fervently

[left sand]

an idea that is good but people would hate would be bosses

for each capture point

[broken thistle]

speaking of destruction, replace ctf with player destruction in casual

lmao

[formal dew]

How about scout's pants

[summer steeple]

honestly i would like to see custom gamemodes aimed at making tf2 better for competitive

[broken thistle]

i mean it would be cool but comp is never going to be a thing

[orchid sorrel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/437863876587945985/1100041877237006357/Team_Fortress_2_2023-04-24_19-52-55.mp4

[summer steeple]

yeah of course

tf2 is kinda... not a competitive game imo

[orchid sorrel]

testing a chief that can switch mannpowerups on the fly

[summer steeple]

like just because some people have fun playing tf2 competitively doesn't make it a competitive game

people play competitive microsoft excel

[broken thistle]

i wouldn't say tf2 the game isnt competitive (at least when it comes to its mechanics) just that it never really had the support that csgo and friends did

[hybrid cloud]

i dont think it's because it wasnt designed with competitive in mind

yea that

[broken thistle]

and there isnt really a cult around it like melee

[summer steeple]

idk personally i just don't think the mechanics work too well for competitive

[hybrid cloud]

it's just never going to get support and the culture of tf2 if not outwardly hostile is indifferent to the idea competitive tf2

[broken thistle]

I see people unironically defending random crits still, so I see your point

[hybrid cloud]

people will play competitive mario kart and pokemon, it's an attitude issue combined with valve's general neglect of non workshop content lately

[summer steeple]

also just like

[broken thistle]

comp tf2 is also just fundamentally different to casual in anything other then mechanics

[summer steeple]

not every game has to be competitive

[broken thistle]

its usually 6v6 5cp while casual is either 12v12 ctf or payload

(there is highlander ofc)

[formal dew]

I was malding about random crits once and it got featured in a youtube video

Without my knowledge

[summer steeple]

epic

[hybrid cloud]

idk, i never really felt like the game has to be one or the other

[formal dew]

The dane video on crits

[hybrid cloud]

people can play it both ways

[summer steeple]

yeah

[jagged pawn]

I mean what would that even entail? koth and payload already nail it

[summer steeple]

but just in general like valve doesn't have to make the game competitive

and i don't just mean that they tried and failed

[jagged pawn]

how

[hybrid cloud]

idk they did try and fail pretty hard

to me the whole thing felt half baked and when the game wasnt overnight successful they dipped

[summer steeple]

well yeah it sure didn't help

[hybrid cloud]

at least, those are the vibes i get

[broken thistle]

i generally just dont bother with chat or anything in-game lmao

[formal dew]

It was on a forum

[broken thistle]

mcoms hide-chat-until-you-need it is a godsend

oh

[hybrid cloud]

i always feel like people who argue to keep random crits in just

[small siren]

*i always feel like

people who argue to keep

random crits in just*

- pathulhu

[hybrid cloud]

dont find tf2 by itself all that fun?

[jagged pawn]

consider: random crits have a cool visual effect

[hybrid cloud]

it feels like the video game equivalent of like a family guy clip + mobile game footage on tiktok

[broken thistle]

holy shit it does lmao

[hybrid cloud]

boring ahh game i need random instant kills

[broken thistle]

make it so that final blows with hitscan do all the cool visuals with critical hits but dont actually apply the bonus

i wonder how long it would take for people to catch on

would be an epic troll moment though

(im not actually suggesting this btw)

[jagged pawn]

wait

unironically would be cool. I don't think it's feasible tho

kills having unique visual effects to match the unique killsounds would be so sick

makes me think of the new killstreak hud in cs2

[orchid sorrel]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/PNpsdkZNHRhL2yFRwh/giphy.mp4?cid=73b8f7b143c1d38d7b9d9b028cc7b9e178dcc61420074211&rid=giphy.mp4&ct=g

[broken thistle]

kinda like the confetti effect from halo?

[hybrid cloud]

alternatively give weapons different hitsounds based on damage type

would be neato to pistol someone and hear like little meat slaps or chunking someone with a shotgun and hearing cartoon bones snapping

[jagged pawn]

open players

[hybrid cloud]

just like me fr

[broken thistle]

killing someone with the hot hand would produce an extremely loud falling pipe sound

[summer steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/open-tf2-tf2open-etf2l-open-open-tf2-gif-25219871

[jagged pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/tf2-6s-sixes-roamer-open-gif-26594754

[summer steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/tf2-open-tf2open-gif-24607207

this is always my favorite open gif

wait is this the same player as the other one i sent

its the same hud

[jagged pawn]

HAHAHA

[summer steeple]

i think it is

its too fast and low res for me to see the name

but its the same length

[jagged pawn]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/849750633967910942/996145741342969938/FEax5QWXoAEB5lZ_SparkVideo-1.gif

[summer steeple]

I have literally no clue what this gif means

[orchid sorrel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1005900021729861653/1032719303574835250/caption.gif

[jagged pawn]

what the fuck is that cart

oh I'm an idiot this is a tank

[jagged pawn]

they're playing like dogshit

[summer steeple]

oh

that makes sense

[broken thistle]

wtf is that monkey emoji

[summer steeple]

iwazaru

[broken thistle]

i thought it was just an emoji but it turns out it summons some kind of demon

[summer steeple]

let me demonstrate

why did it not work lmao

dumb

[steel orbit]

gentle reminder: dumb is ableist language. Some alternatives: silly, foolish, ignorant, uninformed, ridiculous, pathetic, absurd

[summer steeple]

there we go

[broken thistle]

fiend you are..... *checks notes* foolish /s

[summer steeple]

just to try and push people away from problematic language (we have no control over the words list tho so some things are a bit werid)

[broken thistle]

makes sense

[summer steeple]

also a really great shitty person test because some people love to mald at its existence

[broken thistle]

I was just surprised when it popped up when i reacted lmao

[left sand]

the only problem with tf2 is the lack of money

like literally if there was a $1.6 million no restriction tournament

people would do everything it took to win

and it would be very clear how the game could adapt to be more balanced for a competitive setting

[jagged pawn]

valve fund a major with case money challenge

[broken thistle]

People complain and complain if you suggest that tf2 should be balanced around comp

[jagged pawn]

people are idiots it's true

[summer steeple]

which is funny considering the fact that tf2 is at its most balanced now

because of comp

or at least an attempt to make it better for comp

[broken thistle]

its only really sniper that is an outlier in terms of balance for me, other things are just annoying simply for the purpose of being annoying like the Natacha or the scorch shot

and also just bad design like the 300 weapons with the sole purpose of countering spy and doing nothing else

[jagged pawn]

yeah I definitely agree that tf2 is in the best place it's ever been but there's still so much they've left untouched. natascha and scorch shot explicitly being designed to annoy opponents, mad milk and jarate being overwhelmingly powerful for no real drawback, etc

[summer steeple]

I think to me the funniest weapon in the game is the third degree

because its just a straight upgrade to the stock

[jagged pawn]

and yet it's still ass

it's really funny true

[summer steeple]

yeah

it has not changed ever since it was added

[jagged pawn]

is it a crazy take to think the fire axe and fists should be buffed in some way

melee damage simply has no use case on the classes with damage that works how pyro/heavy's do. like obviously stock melees aren't great on most of the classes, but particularly for those two it's just so so bad

[broken thistle]

the homewrecker is probably my sleeper pick for badly designed weapons

[orchid sorrel]

on that note, why does the hot hand have a 20% dmg penalty on top of a hidden 50% dmg penalty

its so weird

[summer steeple]

i assume the 50% damage penalty is just to account for 2 slaps

[jagged pawn]

the double tap mechanic absolutely should be mentioned in the stats tho

like I have no idea why it just isn't mentioned properly

[broken thistle]

half of tf2's stat pages for weapons are just flat out missing something crucial or wrong haha

[jagged pawn]

real

[orchid sorrel]

goes into mvm as well

upgrades have lots of weird hidden stats

like mad milk syringes giving +1% uber for every health healed by allies

and knockback rage's infamous damage reduction

[summer steeple]

the canteens on engi

wait i didn't know that about knockback rage

[orchid sorrel]

when rage is active, your damage is cut in half

[summer steeple]

huh

[orchid sorrel]

I forget if its a firing speed reduction or damage per bullet

[wintry marlin]

smash

[wintry marlin]

smash

[wintry marlin]

ssmash

[wintry marlin]

smash

[summer steeple]

pass

[broken thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-plankton-alright-i-get-it-i-get-it-enough-gif-19558825

[wintry marlin]

literally despite all these reasons smash did it

[broken thistle]

true, im not sure why melee thrived and tf2 didnt tbh

[small siren]

*true, im not sure why

melee thrived and tf2

didnt tbh*

- tauin

[summer steeple]

because melee players don't do anything but play melee

tf2 players (some of them) at least shower

[orchid sorrel]

its easier to play comp smash because you just play like you normally do without items

[broken thistle]

lmao

[orchid sorrel]

theres no different game mode, no teams to join

[summer steeple]

also fighting game players are just insane

[broken thistle]

makes sense, i mentioned before how different casual and comp game modes are

[small siren]

*makes sense, i mentioned

before how different casual

and comp game modes are*

- tauin

[wintry marlin]

arguably it's a niche within a niche because it's not enough to take 9v9 matches seriously when the maps are terrible and some weapons are absurd
so a 6v6 format was made and restrictions are given
while smash is just,
pick anything, but most people will choose fox.

[orchid sorrel]

and theres (for the most part) nothing like character bans or team restrictions

[broken thistle]

also change 12v12 casual to 9v9 pls valve

[orchid sorrel]

like if you main king k rool, you can play him in comp 24/7

you might not do well, but nobodys going to stop you

[wintry marlin]

you could make an argument that playing tf2 with comp settings is less fun overall than comp smash

[broken thistle]

I guess this goes back to balancing tf2 for comp

[jagged pawn]

it's because organizing 12 people is harder than 2

[wintry marlin]

perhaps the no restrictions approach could have been taken in tf2 history to mimic smash.
but you know, meta.
not every meta is enjoyable.

if you take away fox from melee players they'll shit and die

[orchid sorrel]

also smash and other FGC have social stuff like local tournaments and stuff

[broken thistle]

ive heard that smash players are a lot more open to experimentation too

[jagged pawn]

mastercoms and I were talking about this higher up, nr6s is so based

[orchid sorrel]

everyone goes to VG bootcamp and has a good time

[broken thistle]

1v1 is a lot more comprehensible for someone to follow then 6v6 or god forbid 9v9 too

[hybrid cloud]

i want to say the culture of the games are also pretty different

like, youve got some people who dont see the point in competitive smash but for the most part it seems to be more positively received

[wintry marlin]

begs to ask if counter-strike was always this 5v5 comp game.

[orchid sorrel]

yeah this basically

[jagged pawn]

picking between the tf2 community and the smash community is picking between racism and sexism

[broken thistle]

what

[orchid sorrel]

lets be real, both communities have problems with both

[wintry marlin]

it's clear as day with dota, it's in the symmetry

[hybrid cloud]

meanwhile if you ask a typical tf2 player what they think of competitive tf2 you'll get a variety of answers but i doubt a lot of them would be very positive

[summer steeple]

this is actually a good point that i had forgotten about

[wintry marlin]

I have to return to the stance that you can't force an esport, they are made when people decide it as so.

[summer steeple]

most comp games are either asym or sym

but tf2 is both

[broken thistle]

csgo is a lot slower, i mean i hate comp csgo with how fucking stale it is, because when the meta is anything other then ak's and m4's the pros whine and complain about it

[wintry marlin]

^ valve also plays nicely with that after getting burned many times

[broken thistle]

oh boy another match on overpass i wonder what weapons they're gonna try this time 🤔

[wintry marlin]

but I'm talking about 1.6, cs:s is a bit of a black sheep and very shortlived

I would have to believe that people just thought that cs works as a comp game despite being asym

and the weird economy played into the individual strategy part that turned out to be fun.

[broken thistle]

chess

[summer steeple]

well i thin asymmetrical games work fine for competitive

its just that tf2 is trying to be both

depending on the game mode

[jagged pawn]

yeah and the comp players have decided that they want it to be symmetrical clearly

[wintry marlin]

they never play payload, right?

[summer steeple]

i think its a shame tbh

[wintry marlin]

tbh payload in overwatch is kind of a mess, but it's an intentional mess because they copied tf2 gamemodes and fucked shit up.

[summer steeple]

because symmetrical gamemodes in the fast paced gameplay of comp locks out a good chunk of the classes except for specific scenarios

[jagged pawn]

yeah 5cp is inherently bad for the classes that lack movement tools

[wintry marlin]

while there is no 5cp in overwatch, how funny is that

[jagged pawn]

I don't think it's fair to say this about koth since the map is so small

[small siren]

*I don't think it's fair

to say this about koth since

the map is so small*

- Grapevine

[hybrid cloud]

i think a faster pace is more interesting

maybe koth should get more rep?

[summer steeple]

yeah koth is fine i think

but 5cp is just

woof

[wintry marlin]

imagine gravitating your comp scene to a gamemode that makes it difficult for every character to be usable

not very pg-13 or kid-friendly I presume

[broken thistle]

i enjoy watching 5cp but it does run into the same problem as csgo

[hybrid cloud]

not every character is gonna be super viable even in the best of cases

[jagged pawn]

I mean the problem isn't that not every character is "super viable", it's that they see near-zero use

[wintry marlin]

not being the best case scenario is what creates bm moments

[jagged pawn]

at least on koth or payload they get pulled out on defense

[broken thistle]

oh boy better run 2 scouts, 2 soldiers a scout a demo and a medic

[summer steeple]

yeah its less about player choice and more about the norm

[broken thistle]

there is an awesome player who uses battle engie which is pretty based

[hybrid cloud]

depending on how you like the game to be played i think it's honestly fine that not every class gets fully rep'd

[summer steeple]

and thats fair

tf2 is a mess of ideas

its honestly like

[wintry marlin]

there's an opportunity to pick an underpowered strat and do what's best to your ability
it avoids the rock paper scissors approach if it allows for skill to show through regardless if it's not optimal

[summer steeple]

it might as well be several games in one

it doesn't really know what it wants to be

so it has everything

and it works... ok

[jagged pawn]

out of curiosity I analyzed the nr6s finals and this was the end result of usage by round. note that, though the traditional 6s classes remain the most common, the other classes still saw notable play

and this is with players that are generally used to restricted 6s, and thus are less skilled on these classes, yet they still chose to play them. imagine how much they could be played if nr6s was the norm

[wintry marlin]

I don't like rock paper scissors type of revolving strategy that was made in overwatch, honestly.
imagine rotating between 8 different heroes just because you're not going to beat the enemy team composition.

I think skill > picks is more fun by design

[summer steeple]

I mean its really not as big of a part of the game as people make it out to be

you really don't need to swap characters most of the time

[wintry marlin]

I can see how in personal experience but these comments were made regarding the esport scene

[summer steeple]

oh well i haven't watched OW esports

because i uh... don't care