Tactical Motifs vs Opening Ideas

[vapid finch]

Tell us why in the thread 👀

[fathom acorn]

Hmm that's a tough one

[vapid finch]

[shy vine]

tactics

[pastel kestrel]

what is a tactical motif

[vapid finch]

like. pins, skewers etc

[pastel kestrel]

oh

[tiny bramble]

Why ping

[mortal drum]

Fobby's gambit

[shell gull]

What are those

[white jolt]

If it were opening principals, I might say those but opening ideas vs tactics are gonna be tactics every day.

[vapid finch]

tactical motifs

[latent wyvern]

ofc tactics

[shell gull]

What are... tactical motifs...

[lapis flume]

when i first learned about discovered check , it was really helpful

[tiny bramble]

Internet Gambit

[vapid finch]

tactics that happen a lot. like. patterns that you see often.

like. pins.

[shell gull]

But... what are pins

[fathom acorn]

My first thought was tactics but it does say opening ideas. A beginner without opening principles is almost lost

[vapid finch]

https://www.chess.com/article/view/chess-tactics

[shell gull]

[vapid finch]

https://www.chess.com/article/view/chess-tactics#pin <

there's the pin

[latent wyvern]

opening ideas come later. the basics are in the tactical ideas. or at the end you wouldn't know what to do after you do the opening and would get stuck

[pastel kestrel]

looks like checkers from top lol

[shell gull]

Okkk thanks

[vapid finch]

lol true

[latent wyvern]

haha lol

[idle laurel]

Imo if you're trynna learn chess opening ideas matter a lot less at the lower level because down there it's just last to blunder wins

[white jolt]

So, when it says opening ideas, is it trying to ask about openings (like knowing theory) or basic principles? Like, they're both ideas, but one is vastly less important for beginners/intermediates.

[alpine flame]

how does one know some tactic motif without knowing at least a little opening idea

[fathom acorn]

If you learn tactics first then you don't survive the opening though

[fathom acorn]

I would also say theory and principles are both ideas

[alpine flame]

would someoen who knows opening idea win vs someone who knows tactic motif

[tiny bramble]

Wrong chnl

[latent wyvern]

i would disagree.. openings are based on tactics

[alpine flame]

precisely

[fathom acorn]

That's a good question

[alpine flame]

tactic motif works for the entirety of the game

[mint sphinx]

Chess.

[alpine flame]

opening idea is only at the beginning

[latent wyvern]

yep

[fathom acorn]

Just because you learn how a pin works doesn't mean you won't fall for Scholar's mate

[white jolt]

Right, but that's my point. If it's meaning should you learn theory, then the answer is 100% tactics. If it means do you learn opening principles, then it's going to be the ideas, but only to know the principles.

[fathom acorn]

I completely agree

[vital geyser]

FIRST

[alpine flame]

without learning tactics you wouldnt know y u r doing that opening

[vital geyser]

Not

[fathom acorn]

*Middle game

[latent wyvern]

If you'd truly learnt tactical motifs, then I don't see why you would fall for scholar's mate. Doesn't make sense to me tbh.

[frozen canyon]

what is tactical motifs

[idle laurel]

Bruh no 500 is gonna know opening counters so theory ain't very important 💀

[latent wyvern]

Understanding pressure is a motif in itself

[fathom acorn]

You are expecting a beginner to play perfect chess?

[white jolt]

Not always. Not every opening leads to a super tactical middlegame. And, ultimately, if I were to play against a true beginner, I could literally play just about any opening and beat them. Just like if I were to play against someone who's 1800+, they could play literally anything they want in the opening and beat me.

[idle laurel]

Thass what I'm sayin, they wont

[idle vector]

im a begginer but i need to work on openings so idk

[fathom acorn]

Check the pinned message

[white jolt]

You probably need to work on opening principles, not openings. It's a different thing. Just the basics of how you start a generic game, not worrying about even 5 moves of theory except for how to avoid the super common traps like the scholar's mate. And even that is really just 3 moves.

[latent wyvern]

Of course not. But the questions is whether to focus on tactical motifs or opening ideas. And we see that in long run, tactical motifs do help in seeing threats due to certain openings.

[idle vector]

rahhh

[fathom acorn]

I highl doubt learning tactics will help a beginner in the opening. Seeing tactics for yourself is very different to seeing tactics for your opponent

[red vault]

I believe that if you learn tactics then understanding the ideas of your openings will be easier.

Just my pov

[vital geyser]

car work

[idle laurel]

At beginner level it's just last to blunder wins so tactics are important

[vital geyser]

Wrong place

[white jolt]

Eh, somewhat disagree. Even if my opponent in this position didn't know the theory in this opening, if they knew tactics they would know that my next move wasn't a queen blunder.

[idle laurel]

What are those pieces

[fathom acorn]

I think we have different definitions of a beginner

[latent wyvern]

Fair enough. But as you said, it's not perfect chess they play. So it really focuses on who can be more influential in the middle of the game where tactical motifs are used. And it's often seen in openings. Maybe they won't be able to see their opponents moves but it would certainly help them to later on improve their opening concepts

Well Last to Blunder basically

[white jolt]

Maybe? I'm of the opinion that anybody at my level and below is a beginner at this point lol

[idle laurel]

If you don't agree that beginners are >1000 you're inhuman

[white jolt]

They played a bunch of weird crap, like 3 d6

[fathom acorn]

I would say 1100 is the point where people are not beginners anymore

[latent wyvern]

That's a fair definition yeah

[latent wyvern]

Maybe a bit less towards the low 1000s but yeah that's intermediate level we get from then on

[fathom acorn]

No beginner knows or figures out the Legal trap

[idle laurel]

Lol yeah. That max they'd go to is maybe ICBM

[alpine flame]

what happens if they just per say saw it in a levy how to win in 7 moves shorts

[white jolt]

Fair enough. I've won a couple of games because of people loving to pin my knight.

[latent wyvern]

Well fair enough yeah lol but that's just naming examples from then on. Countless other examples where tactics are useful too

[fathom acorn]

But I have to say this is by far the most difficult poll we had (except for strategy vs tactics maybe)

[idle laurel]

Game is game

[white jolt]

They see the "free" queen and immediately forget they saw it. If they're a beginner, I can nearly 100% guarantee that will happen, an undefended queen is a hard thing to pass up.

[latent wyvern]

I'd argue more examples for tactical motifs as mathematically you have more number of positions later on. And for a beginner it would be important to focus on the more number of positions.

That was a word jumble sorry

But you get the point

[fathom acorn]

The question is if you teach people only opening principles in the beginning how do they play the rest of the game and what positions do they get out of the opening

[alpine flame]

on what skill level do we put them on

[white jolt]

IMO as a beginner, you should know how to avoid scholars mate, and know how to get pieces out w/ a vague idea of where to put them after 1 e4 and 1 d4 with both colors. That is enough opening for a beginner.

[alpine flame]

like a fresh off the bat just saw found the game

or like understanding the game

[fathom acorn]

Anything between 400 and 800 I guess

[idle laurel]

So it's basically what more important opening or middlegame+endgame

[latent wyvern]

That's what makes this a pretty tough poll lmao

[white jolt]

I think it depends on what level of beginner. That would probably matter a lot more for a 800+ than someone that's at like 300. A 300 just needs to focus on not blundering pieces every other move.

[fathom acorn]

Kind of

I am not sure how they would play in their weak part

[idle laurel]

800+ also need to not blunder what's Ur point?

[fathom acorn]

I guess the more moves the game had the more likely tactics guy will win

[white jolt]

That the 300 blunders a lot more than the 800, so their opening matters less. It really doesn't matter for either that much, but the 800 needs to at least know the principles. It doesn't matter if the 300 knows all the opening principles in the world when they blunder their queen and a knight every other move.

[idle laurel]

Ok so we agree that the 300 and 800 just need to not be garbage

So tactics more important

[fathom acorn]

The question is does your opponent know opening traps? If they don't then the tactics guy will probably win. I changed my opinion

[idle laurel]

Ok now you're turning debate into if bruv

[fathom acorn]

I think you win more games by tactics than you lose in the opening (I hope) as beginner

[idle laurel]

Agreed

[white jolt]

And I think this is the important thing for a beginner to realize. They'll remember the games they lose in the opening more than the ones they lose by tactics, but those are going to be the minority of their games.

[idle laurel]

Why are we still discussing this lol. We've agreed that tactics>openings

[fathom acorn]

Idk a lot of people lose tons of games because they violate opening principles and they only learn after hundreds of losses

[fathom acorn]

There is never a right or wrong in a poll. Always room to argue

[idle laurel]

Ig but like evidently tactics prove to be more important in majority of beginner games

U down for a game?

[fathom acorn]

Ehm sure

[bleak sparrow]

Openings are not worth striving to memorize too early in ones chess ambition, especially seeing as to how often lower rated players tend to stray away from the opening theory

Tactics, on the other hand, are not limited to the opening, or any specific part of the game in itself

[fathom acorn]

I don't think ideas only mean theory

[bleak sparrow]

Possibly, but I said openings in general

[fathom acorn]

This also includes opening principles?

[bleak sparrow]

Kind of, but I'd put (personally) tactical ideas equal to opening principals for inexperienced chess players

Not theory, that's a whole other story

[fathom acorn]

[bleak sparrow]

Sleepio

Sleeps in rapid

[brazen umbra]

Well of course tactical motifs

What’s the point in openings if u don’t know why you play like that

Motifs are always basics of chess

Learn how to fight for the centre and develop your pieces

Openings are the next step , and usually when you’re training , opening are seconds , first are basics of chess , like listed above

[white jolt]

Yes, but I think the question should more be phrased as "tactics vs opening principles when you are first starting," rather than tactics vs opening ideas. Like, setting aside learning what it means to play an italian or Sicilian and instead focus on things like only move pieces once in the opening, get your pieces out, knights before bishops, etc.

[scenic oasis]

Beginners in the opening should focus on not hanging all of their stuff... aaaand developing some pieces. Tactics should be the priority, because it makes no sense to learn opening variations when your opponent might hang a queen on move 5 and you won't even see it. But this doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn from your opening mistakes.

Because at first you might play god knows what in the opening and get away with it, but as you get higher rated, your opponents will start to punish your mistakes

[fathom acorn]

You just summarized opening principles. That are not tactic motifs

[brazen umbra]

Ik

[brazen umbra]

Thanks for supporting us btw , I really appreciate that

[brazen umbra]

Yes you’re right , tactics are important, but my way of think is like this :

1. Learn the basics ( moving pieces )
2. Opening principles ( developing pieces , fighting for the centre )
3. Learn more what to do in mid game and endgame
4. Tactics
5. Openings

[brazen umbra]

• it’s very important to be able to NOT lose your pieces and give away them , learn that too

[fathom acorn]

Obviously both answers of the poll are important. But do you really think a beginner can win a lot of chess games if you only teach him opening principles? (Only learning tactics is the other option)

[brazen umbra]

Yea , because I was that beginner

2 first tournaments

2 tournaments successful

[fathom acorn]

I was not expecting that. Interesting story

[lapis sage]

Tactical motifs only because opening ideas at a beginner level can be learned very fast so no need to focus on that for so much time

[mint sphinx]

I feel like tactical motifs are less strong to learn about because even though you know what a fork is doesn't mean you'll get that fork on the board, a lot of the tactics come from experience. Openings are also something that is improved over time but learning the opening can expose you to ideas in it and set a solid foundation for your games so you aren't dead lost before you have a chance to get a tactic on the board.

[idle prawn]

Yeah openings are not that hard to rememeber if you play them a bit meanwhile the tactics can be used anywhere during a game and are harder to learn and recognize

[warm perch]

tactics

if tyler1 can play a very passive garbage opening like the cow and reach 1500 CC, it shows tactics are clearly more important to winning games and identifying more of them will lead to victory vs. opening ideas

[bitter void]

youtube exists yk?

[bitter void]

1.a4 2.Ra3 got me to 1500 frfr

[cold birch]

what are endgames again?

[compact kestrel]

Openings don’t matter if you don’t know how to win a game

I’d separate ideas and principles

if you can take the center and move out your peices that’s enough, you don’t need to understand the indepth theory of every opening your opponent plays to get to an okay elo

Hell
I can win with the sicillian without understanding the ideas behind every move at 1000 rapid

[hearty frost]

i voted for both 🗿

[bitter void]

no

[bitter void]

winning a game isn't about tactics tho...

[bitter void]

even 1300

as a 1300 if i play against the sicilian ik what to do

||totally real ||

[compact kestrel]

To reach a favourable endgame or to checkmate before then you do need tactics

[hidden mirage]

it mostly is

[bitter void]

wait why did i say that about tactics

guys i'm wrong i was delusional and i've changed to the better

[humble sequoia]

Tactics, but a bit of basic opening ideas like if you're playing a system you gotta know if you should play solidly or aggressively

[sly fossil]

Opening principles maybe but not too much

[brazen umbra]

Tactics > openings until 800.

[iron spindle]

Openings all the way 🗣🔥🔥

[sly fossil]

lol this is an agreement chat where 90% of ppl saying same thing xd

[vast pollen]

Beginners should focus both

[bitter void]

until 1500 wdym

[brazen umbra]

1500 feels too high tho.

[bitter void]

nop
if you play with opening principles
like e4 e5 four knights game with no theory type shit
you will probably reach 1500
not like i'm 1500 but ye

[brazen umbra]

I could only do that til 700 then I learned the French Defense and Scotch and know I'm 1100 and still climbing.

[bitter void]

i started "learning"
openings at 1000-1100 and i only learned london which took me just about 30 minutes to learn
and i used that up until like 1350 where i learned scotch and i'm learning stuff against caro sicil french etc

[brazen umbra]

Alr

[bitter void]

nah bro shaddup
if you make mistakes that's because you aren't calculating properly

[solemn moon]

u can make mistakes in the opening but u need tactical motifs to fix them

[sly fossil]

opening principles are neede

but not openings themselves

idk any openings

and im 2000

[manic yacht]

I think tactical motives are more important because firstly you have to understand the game and the opponent's thoughts in order to block them, and secondly you have to learn the openings, which is not such a big deal.

[grim talon]

I think opening because knowing more opening theory can reduce chance to fall for opening trap such as 4 move checkmate or blackburne shilling gambit

And opening gives starting advantage too

[crystal glen]

Don't if I join the 2023 chat lol. I wanna say that Openings is better for the beginners like me. Since I regret not learning some openings and your opponent just crushing you without learning the openings. Only beginners do just learn mistakes, learn tactics, learn mid and endgame, etc. So I wanna say openings are great for beginners cuz I don't want to make them regret their life. Because it's the best choice I could say here

Since I have been doing this for like almost a year now. And I keep getting crushed by them. Not just to learn openings.

If you are a beginner here. Please, I do not want you to make your life regret just to lose the position you have or serious openings that you don't know.

I quit playing chess for like 6 months. And I came back to play chess again, cuz it's buggin' me twice. And I still want to be a grandmaster, international master, fide master. Just to work hard and memorise openings and learn how to make yourself a decision. Don't be like them who just say like "Don't learn openings, learn tactics, mid, endgame, etc. Cuz openings are lazy blah blah blah"

[sly fossil]

Uhh I don't see how any of that makes sense

[clever mesa]

https://blogs.mtdv.me/videos/BRwFrprba7

[harsh prairie]

enjoying chess

[foggy dagger]

opening ideas

[humble sequoia]

You shouldn't prioritize openings, but it's a must to have at least an easy to understand opening to get you into a good middle game where then you apply tactics. If you don't have an opening, you wouldn't even have a good enough position in the middle game to attack and find tactics

[crystal glen]

You have to learn openings only like 2 openings for white and black. And I kinda rather learn visualization first.

[proper dust]

Tactical motives imo Majority of beginners games are decided by blunders, not bad openings

[humble sequoia]

well you could also define scholars mate as an opening known as the Wayward Queen attack, so knowing how to counter it is literally opening theory

[proper dust]

True but that's a pretty specific example

[humble sequoia]

But the Wayward Queen Attack is one of the most common openings in beginner level

[inland bison]

a

[cold birch]

wayward queen mentioned

[vast pollen]

On my opinion, I think beginners should focus on opening ideas or maybe just learn some openings, cause if they don't know some basic ones, it can easily be punished with.

[half seal]

the basic opening principls then basics tactics like the pin skewer and discovered attack

[covert pier]

None of the options are my answer. I would say avoiding blunders is best for beginners.

[sand lily]

Agree.

[undone verge]

Both

[untold fable]

Agree

[mellow schooner]

tactical motifs

fr

[teal sand]

beginners dont really need opening knowlegde just 1. e4 e5 ez 👍

[hearty mauve]

e4 c6 now they dont know what to play!~

[gray rivet]

TACTICAL MOTIFs