King's Knight vs Vienna

[patent salmon]

Nf3 my beloved

[timid void]

Nf3

[novel hull]

Vienna

/J never

[pliant sand]

nf3

[timid void]

vienna is for losers

[lament hawk]

Nf3

[junior thunder]

Nf3

[serene widget]

Vienna Supremacy

[novel hull]

To play Italian!!!

[lament hawk]

Idk chess but Knights look good in white

[fallow mural]

Vienna Gambit

[burnt vigil]

nf3 :>

[glass otter]

Both are good but i prefer nf3

[austere sinew]

vienna players are gigachads

[pallid hamlet]

I don't play either of these lamo

[timid void]

f4 not making the poll is a travesty

[viral urchin]

i like ponziani

[gray thunder]

Vienna my beloved

[pliant sand]

same

[timid void]

but Nf3 is the superior knight move

[forest fulcrum]

Knight!!

[shrewd plume]

nf3

[mild flame]

chill sornio

[hybrid tendon]

sornio stfu

[quiet walrus]

Vienna cause it sounds cool

[hidden flicker]

G

[turbid cape]

Kings knight supremacy

[mild flame]

someone ban sornio plz

xd

[stray raven]

Nf3 because I prefer the openings it permits

[hidden flicker]

What’s up hamsters

[main yacht]

Nf3

[forest fulcrum]

Both

[quaint dock]

as a person who cant pay either vienna

[naive laurel]

stop, sornio!!!!!!!

[forest fulcrum]

@pale berry @pale berry @pale berry @pale berry

[quaint dock]

bro stop

[naive laurel]

No.

[pliant sand]

h

[forest fulcrum]

No

[lament hawk]

i agree

[quaint dock]

hi

[fading gull]

nf3 is the classical and sophisticated way to go, people know how to counter the vienna at higher levels of play

[dull moss]

kings knight all the fkin way

[thin glen]

ur either getting muted or banned

[naive laurel]

omg why

[gritty meadow]

Nf3 all the way

[forest fulcrum]

Ok

[lament hawk]

hi

[thin glen]

u know that right?

[open patio]

vienna because its sounds cool

[thin glen]

😭

[queen cove]

bruh i play the spanish

[hoary dawn]

Nf3 develps the knight for king's side castling attacks the black pawn on e5

[fading gull]

me too

[forest fulcrum]

Lol

[queen cove]

so nf3 on top

[neon aurora]

Nc3 because it's premovable

[queen cove]

but i used to play the vienna tho lol

[neon aurora]

e4 Nf3 premove you blunder the e4 pawn to the Scandi

but e4 Nc3 premove still works against the Scandi

[queen cove]

nobdy cares

[mild flame]

just ban him already

are the mods asleep? XD

[mild flame]

thanks who ever was that

[patent salmon]

sorry for that

anyway Nf3 my beloved

[queen cove]

what

[patent salmon]

he's banned

[patent salmon]

the spammer

I missed it

[ocean willow]

Nf3 because it feels more open and dynamic

[patent salmon]

was crossposting in the community club

[queen cove]

ohk

[patent salmon]

I guess I like that explanation

but also it leaves a lot of option for black

[feral crater]

As a Ruy Lopez player, I see this as an absolute win

[ocean willow]

+1

[patent salmon]

ew

ew +1

[queen cove]

same

[sterile jackal]

I dont know I play the sicilian

[patent salmon]

italian >>

[patent salmon]

lmfao

as white tho

[queen cove]

do you play the italian?

[patent salmon]

if you play e4 and opponent goes e5

[sterile jackal]

🥶 right

[patent salmon]

and you had to choose

[sterile jackal]

kings gambit

[patent salmon]

ye

[sterile jackal]

🥶

[patent salmon]

and you had to choose between these two

but you're down a tempo and sad

[queen cove]

italian is sad

[patent salmon]

no it aint

!!

[sterile jackal]

ok but probably kings knight

[patent salmon]

italian is goated

[patent salmon]

fair

: (

[lean cargo]

King's knight becuase Vienna has a bunch of cheap counters

[feral crater]

Italian is probably easier to understand for beginners

[dark venture]

vienna solos

[sterile jackal]

I dont really know the advantages and disadvantages of them so I play kings knight because it advances a piece that is in the way of castling and it threatens a pawn

[proper pier]

Neither! 2.Bc4 and then grab a bite to eat and go to the bathroom while the opponent is thinking

[sterile jackal]

Is it bad that ive never played the ruy lopez or italian game?

[feral crater]

Would you say bishops opening is underrated

[proper pier]

Yes, absolutely! Objectively not the best opening but playable.

You can transpose into Italian, Vienna, or play unique lines. Many people randomly assume you're going to do 1 out of those 3.

[queen cove]

which one?

[proper pier]

Yes, you got the role! Feel free to host! I'll send you more detailed instructions via DM.

Vienna is much more rare than 2.Nf3 at higher levels.

[feral crater]

I don't see it much but I consider it to be a good option

[ionic nexus]

🙏🙏

Vienna scores much better at most levels of game

[proper pier]

Few opponents know it. Even if they know it, it's very rare so they don't have experience in it.
Many opponents think it's just a transposition trick.
I like the lines.

About 60% of people who play it play for transposition trickery into the Italian, about 20% for transposition trickery into the Vienna. Very few people play the unique Bishop's Opening lines.

[sterile jackal]

What do you think of 1. e4 e5 2. f4?

[feral crater]

💀

[proper pier]

Objectively dubious but a lot of fun to play!

[sleek quartz]

VIENNA EZ

[proper pier]

King's Gambit is rare for 1.…e5 players, so you'll have more experience. However there are a number of good lines against it, so at FM+ level not that great in classical.

[sleek quartz]

wait, uh king's gambit is listed as nf3??

king's gambt>vienna

nvm, im half asleep 😂
im gonna go back to nap

[sterile jackal]

Doesn't Fischer Defense refute it completely?

[proper pier]

That's one of the good choices black has.

But refuted? Maybe at engine or grandmaster level. Below that, totally playable. People tend to overestimate how much theory they know. In my last tournament, against opponents averaging ~2000 FIDE, somebody was out of book before move 5 in four out of five games.

[sleek canyon]

VIENNA SUPREMACY

[lament hawk]

nah imma play bishop to G12 forking every single piece

[digital stirrup]

Nf3 my beloved ❤️

[swift prairie]

Nc3

[dire radish]

Nf3 simply superior

[autumn scarab]

yes

people who think kings knight is good have not see the power of the viena

[rotund ingot]

vienna is good only for begginers

[tired parcel]

Vienna is good as long as your opponents don't know how to equalize against it.
If I knew all of my opponents are gonna play the Vienna against me, I would play 1...e5 for the rest of my life.
So, 2.Nf3 is the obvious answer for me.

(Waiting for @hasty kite to come here and say something like "2.f4 >>>> 2.Nf3 & 2.Nc3")

[hasty kite]

I did play Italian in the past when I started chess but it's not my style. Never tried Spanish, Scotch or Ponziani ever. I would prefer Vienna every day if I had to move my knight after e4 e5 :)

[hasty kite]

It's a common mistake to think that. GMs know it is not true

[timid void]

kings gambit is hardly refuted

but yeah at GM level black doesnt have much trouble equalizing

however if black tries to play for an advantage positions can get really dank

[atomic edge]

we’re all sleeping on 2. Ke2

[hasty kite]

64% win rate with the Vienna

Don't remind me

I am glad that I forget most things

[dire radish]

that's actually kinda crazy

[brisk sleet]

I usually play Nf3 for the Italian, which I am far more comfortable and familiar with in principles and general lines, but I would like to hear someone's rationale for choosing the Vienna

(And also @hasty kite 's Bc4 opening)

[hasty kite]

I don't play the Bishop's Opening

[brisk sleet]

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. You said that Bc4 was a good opening for e4 e5?

[hasty kite]

When did I ever mention Bc4?

[brisk sleet]

Sorry, my bad

Mixed you up with @proper pier

[proper pier]

Everybody who plays 1.e4 e5 knows 2.Nf3.
Most people who play 1.e4 e5 know 2.Nc3.
Few people who play 1.e4 e5 know 2.Bc4.
So the immediate answer is that Bc4 is objectively the worst of those moves, but fewer players are familiar with it, and if they know it, they don't know it that deep.

Bc4 specifically also allows a lot of transposition tricks, which makes it even harder for black to handle this opening.

[fallow pumice]

me playing 1.d4 be like:🗿

[ocean flame]

Vienna's too complicated if you're starting out.
And no one prepares for Nf3 at a more advanced level.

[proper pier]

We can make this another poll: 2.c4 vs 2. Nf3 vs 2. Bf4 vs 2.Nc3 after 1.d4 d5?

[fallow pumice]

good idea

first time four choices in a poll so much variety

[novel hull]

They basiclly got all italian players, all ruy players, all scotch players and all four knights players and decided to get them agaisnt veinna players

[midnight orbit]

approved

[floral crow]

Nf3

[hasty kite]

Considering that Vienna is doing great with 1/3 of all votes

[mighty silo]

vienna

[dull knoll]

vienna because i'm low elo so often times i get to play the gambit (3. f4 exf4 4. e5)

[novel hull]

thats all the d4 players that side with veinna

[raw drum]

That is the most backwards bs I ever done heard

from your local d4 enjoyer ❤️

[gleaming basalt]

People still play the vienna?

[raw drum]

Both of them yeah

[austere sinew]

im 1450 and id say maybe 30% of the time i get 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. f4 on the board, they still take the pawn lol

and literally nobody knows to play d5 there

[abstract rivet]

(my games, ~2100) this is what people play

against vienna

[uncut pulsar]

vienna on top

[lament hawk]

the Vienna is for people who don’t actually know how to play chess

[ionic nexus]

Reasoning?

[lament hawk]

Because you’re just following what Gotham tells you In hopes of getting good

If you learned it yourself then it’s not as bad

[ionic nexus]

Bruh gotham didn't invented that opening

[lament hawk]

But still kings knight is for the ogs

[lament hawk]

Yes, but how many 700s do you think just stumbled upon it? They’re probably learning it from the biggest chess creator

[ionic nexus]

Yeah so what's the issue in that?

[lament hawk]

I’m not saying it’s a huge crime I’m saying that it’s likely those who play the Vienna often have less experience

I mean kings knight is played at all levels

But you never see the Vienna or London in gm tournaments

[ionic nexus]

??
Both are seen many times on top level

[lament hawk]

I haven’t seen Vienna at top level

And kings knight is far more common

[ionic nexus]

Who plays vienna often have less experience of what?

[lament hawk]

The game, as in lower rating

Often, not always

[ionic nexus]

Can you explain reasoning behind that

[lament hawk]

The Vienna, at least to me, is more common at lower ratings, hence my opinion

[ionic nexus]

Yeah so what's the issue in it
Kings gambit is much popular at lower level and it's completely 🔥🔥

[lament hawk]

Kings gambit is almost refuted opening

You need almost perfect play to benefit from kings gambit

But you can play it at lower levels because neither player plays consistent high accuracy

[ionic nexus]

Yeah so?
Even stockfish lost to kings gambit

[lament hawk]

Against another chess bot are you kidding me

That’s not a fair comparison to players

[ionic nexus]

Kings gambit is very good at lower level it forces you to calculate and get better at using intiative, tactics, attacking

[lament hawk]

The ideas of the kings gambit are difficult to play because you weaken your king

It makes for hard to play games

Bots don’t have to deal with that as much and also, they’re bots

[ionic nexus]

Idk how black will exploit it can you play a game against me and show?

Game for black is much harder because white is ahead in devlopment and have potential to attack

[lament hawk]

Literally every game leads to a different position, that can be said for anything bc you’re presented with something new each game

[lament hawk]

It’s difficult to play for both yeah

But that doesn’t change the fact that what’s king is weak, so if a player knows how to target that, play is hard for white

Essentially it’s a less common opening now because it’s very complicated and sharp which can lead to quite intense games

[ionic nexus]

Can you show?

[lament hawk]

I personally wouldn’t play it because it’s tough

[lament hawk]

Do you know what the kings gambit is

[ionic nexus]

I don't know how it get exploited
White have the intiative not black

[lament hawk]

The gambit of the pawn makes the king weak on the dark diagonal

[ionic nexus]

It's only weak if king can be targeted

[lament hawk]

Whether or not black gets the chance to exploit it depends on the game

[lament hawk]

Qh4+ move 2?

[ionic nexus]

??
I don't understand what you want to say
White have the intiative, devlopment, potential to attack

[lament hawk]

It’s possible to use the diagonal the moment the move is played

[ionic nexus]

G3 and white totaly safe

[lament hawk]

So black just has no pieces and no counter play in any situation ever?

Like I said it depends on the game

What white has doesn’t take into account what white doesn’t have or risks

[lament hawk]

Black develops the queen and can take the f pawn next move, threatening the e pawn

[ionic nexus]

Every player don't want to play safe game someone want to play sharp attacking agressive games
Where they can improve thier calculation, tactics, attacking skills which is of the best way to improve

[ionic nexus]

D4 takes whole center

[lament hawk]

Why are you speaking for every player

[ionic nexus]

Why not?

[lament hawk]

If you are in a tournament who needs to draw or win, are you going to play safe or aggressive? You can play aggressive, but if you make a mistake you throw it

[lament hawk]

Because you aren’t every player

[lament hawk]

This is wrong, but looking at analysis it’s evaluation is better for black

[ionic nexus]

??
Just giving a random situation?
And I can make it completely like you have to play for win only

[ionic nexus]

Nope

[lament hawk]

2. F4 is -0.4

[ionic nexus]

E4 e5 F5 qh5+ g3 then?

[lament hawk]

Oh so stockfish is just wrong is your opinion

[lament hawk]

I just said I was wrong

But that the kings gambit gives black advantage

[ionic nexus]

Yeah so you are not facing stockfish

[lament hawk]

Because that random situation could happen to somebody, and in that case that player might not want to do what you said

You can’t speak for everyone

[lament hawk]

But if I’m facing a good player I’m not going to play something that gives them advantage and just hope I don’t lose

If it was against an 800 I would play it without worrying maybe

But against someone of higher rating I wouldn’t risk it

Because I don’t have perfect play

[ionic nexus]

In that situation best chance of winning is by playing agressive chess doesn't matter if player is 800 or 2400 defending is the harder task

[lament hawk]

I would argue it does matter

[ionic nexus]

Usually highly raited will outplay in long-term positional game

[lament hawk]

YEA

BECAUSE THEYRE HIGHER RATED?

LMAO

[lament hawk]

If an 800 plays kings gambit against me I’d probably attack the king and win

[ionic nexus]

The reason they higher raited they are better at game they will be having better knowledge of certain aspects of game

[lament hawk]

Whereas if I did the same they likely wouldn’t win

Just because they played a certain opening that doesn’t refute a rating discrepancy of 800 and instantly make me struggle because I have to defend

[lament hawk]

Yeah that’s kinda how rating works buddy

[ionic nexus]

Bro kings gambit make black defend not white
Qh5+ is nothing more then a check it's like when 800 sees a check he give it

[hasty kite]

Big shock but you can play openings which Levy likes without watching Levy

[lament hawk]

I’m assuming you didn’t read on because I then said if you learned it yourself it’s not as bad

But often newer players more commonly learn the Vienna due to Gotham and his influence

[hasty kite]

What is wrong with that? Let people play what they want to play

[lament hawk]

I never said there was anything wrong with it ffs

I’m just saying it’s more common at lower levels

[hasty kite]

Fair

[lament hawk]

And for higher levels it’s normal to play something else

Thank you

[lament hawk]

I already said that was wrong

But are you gonna tell stockfish he’s wrong

Cause In the end it’s complicated but the evaluation is in blacks favour

Because the ideas can favour white

But often don’t

[novel hull]

[rotund ingot]

💀

[brisk sleet]

You have no say in this

Not that you have a side to support anyways

[prime jay]

Scotch Gambit and Evans Gambit >>>

[regal vine]

vienna

[graceful zodiac]

Vienna

[queen cove]

kings knight

on top

[tender sigil]

Vienna. It's easier to learn, has some neat traps, and the Vienna Gambit is crushing if accepted.

[turbid cape]

Kings knight is easy for beginners

Scotch, Italian, etc

[pine rover]

I play the ponziani but vienna is also good