training with Bots vs with Humans

[rain dome]

[dreamy shell]

Burekas

[open skiff]

beans

[dreamy shell]

I mean

[covert locust]

ball

[dreamy shell]

Both are good

[raw jetty]

humans, bots are dumb

[violet geyser]

Bean sack

[candid lion]

defs humans

[alpine lagoon]

bots make weird blunders depending on the rating

[candid lion]

bots are dumb

[dreamy shell]

But humans are probably better

[covert locust]

agree

[minor nova]

Always human

[cobalt storm]

humans, bots can be predicted.

[sterile oxide]

Bots play like bots, humans play like humans.

[void urchin]

Bots Are dumb

[covert locust]

human 100%

[minor nova]

Bots are so irrational

[keen flint]

humans are stupider but its because im 500 elo

[candid lion]

why do bots so random stuff?

[dreamy shell]

Mods?

[dusty basin]

ayo

[candid lion]

nelson just blunders his queen every now and than

[alpine lagoon]

bots play 10 moves like a 1000, and then make a 300type blunder to balance it out

[rain dome]

I mean yeah but like

endgames, for example

[fluid roost]

Unless we start having chess tournaments against bots, humans are way better. Bots and humans have completely different playstyles, and bots at low ratings are weird as hell.

[sudden remnant]

Bots are boring, end of story

[rain dome]

endgames they do b good

[karmic flicker]

playing against humans ofc

[cedar egret]

this.

[candid lion]

yeah fax

[fluid roost]

fr

[candid lion]

i mean if you play against stockfish max you could probs learn quite a bit

[velvet gyro]

@rain domeplaying against you ❤️ 😌

[wanton yarrow]

humans are just humans

[mellow orbit]

playing against smart players

[rain dome]

[candid lion]

💀

[karmic flicker]

playing against humans because idk

[devout fjord]

Bots are ok for initial learning of lines, but they are limited in scope.
Humans can do very strange things that pull you off your line and make you have to deal with problems. Not every game is going to be the same, you get more experience and can change how you think and adapt to different situations, which ultimately makes you better

[rain dome]

idk I think endgames vs bots goes a long way

but yeah overall humans

[candid lion]

bot if I dont hae that much. Human if I have time

[velvet gyro]

😌

[candid lion]

yeah it does, but you have to make it so bots do best moves each turn

[devout fjord]

this is understandable, I only recently started playing again, have minimal exp with openings and just win through mid and end game, and also recently broke my shoulder so my focus is a bit dead, so was using bots to try out some openings and mid game-transitions to decide what lines I wanted to learn, before doing some unrated

[candid lion]

yeah

[tawny kernel]

You might have an easier time finding out your rating by playing bots when you first start out, but that’s about the only benefit. After that, if you choose to play against bots, you’ll quickly find that they all have a similar playing style every game, and it can get old quick/doesn’t prepare you for other playing styles. Bots also tend to play moves that a typical person would either not play or not see in a given position.

[sly briar]

bots inconsistent

[candid lion]

fr

[devout fjord]

I would be more curious to see peoples opinions on playing against humans or doing puzzles is more important for progress, since both are important

[gray cliff]

While playing with bots can be great for staggered progression, they can eventually become predictable and thus can be easily beat. The advantage of bots is that they can be significantly more efficient then humans, which is why they are studied by GMs like Magnus and Hikaru.
Humans are less predictable then bots, due to having no single algorithem or way to play chess. Humans may have patterns but they won't always play what is the predicted move. Humans also give you the best run for you money, because due to this randomness almost all games humans play against each other will be random, so it is great practice because most games will never be repeated. Humans can also give you good points on your strengths and weaknesses and can review and analyse a game like no other, while some bots can give great points, currently humans coaches are much better.

[alpine rain]

eh there is no right answer, basically depends upon which one of em is more adjusyable

[grand patio]

imagine playing with bots 💀

[velvet gyro]

human brain is the most powerful thing tbh

[alpine rain]

except humans arent capable of utilising that 😂

[velvet gyro]

until we reach quantum computing

[candid lion]

I play with bots. to test new openings. to get my endgames right. or just for fun when I dont have that much time

[velvet gyro]

facts

[candid lion]

real

[devout fjord]

is Magnus not human?

[velvet gyro]

Magnus's cognitive ability is on another level

[alpine rain]

read the complete thread, not a single msg

[devout fjord]

I did 🤔

[fathom blade]

even the 1500-1800 bots do that, sometimes plays like a 2000 for funsies

then sudden blunder

[velvet gyro]

the best way to describe it is.. like there are some ppl in the world who can learn any language quickly are multilingual while there are some ppl who can't learn more than one

[fathom blade]

how many languages you know is usually just in childhood tho

[warped fjord]

Playing against bots

[fathom blade]

some people dont learn more than one language because they grew up in an enviroment where only one language is used

[velvet gyro]

i learned till jp intermediate in less than a year tho

[velvet gyro]

yeah can be

[fathom blade]

but this is irrelevant discussion

[grand patio]

testing openings with a bot is not good and you should train your endgames on Nelibov table bases not with bots

[velvet gyro]

it's not irrelavent this shows one's cognitive ability of brain

but ig to this thread it is

[forest dew]

Humans = Anxiety
Anxiety = Stress
Stress = Brain thrown off
Brain thrown off = Less learning

[alpine rain]

it sorta isnt, its about which option can provide more variety

[winged pendant]

bots just dont play like people do

if you're only playing bots you're conning yourself out of learning how to use stuff like mind games to gain an advantage

plus the blunders bots make are almost always things that humans would never do in the given position

[candid lion]

nelibov table bases?

[candid lion]

exactly. i play with chess to cool down and have fun

humans = sreious gaming time
bots = having fun

[hallow void]

Basically bots play like stockfish for a certain amount of time, and they are bound to make a blunder, mistake or even a small innacuracy which u need to take advantage off. I'd say that of course it's more fun to play actual people since we all can be blind sometimes and just randomly blunder without the opponent noticing, it's much more interesting playing people generally.

[stark lynx]

Bots make you sharper as they are programmed to only@make a few mistakes so you have to be able to capitalize off the few opportunities present where against humans it’s very likely someone would just make a very obvious blunder or mistake or you can typically get away with things that wouldn’t work against a bot

[lament rampart]

Against humans, there's nothing to discuss

Bots play some percentage of the moves perfectly and the rest just self-destroy

[fathom blade]

its either 2700 or 300

[lament rampart]

I think in the nearest future the bots' play will become more human-like, but for now their play is very artificial

[steel narwhal]

Humans

[alpine rain]

i wonder if proper machine learning based on humans has been implemented for training chess bots or not 🤔

i wonder how the bot will perform if chess.com invests resources to train some bots based on all games of top 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, and then 100% of the players

obviously itll be difficult to do so

but could be a nice project

[trim sentinel]

Yeah that can be nice

Try making bots learn from human games. This can lead to some intresting bots :}

[boreal mist]

humans much better

[tall plover]

I think playing with a human is better

[trim sentinel]

But playing with bots needs more development than against humans I think

Also I love the idea of making bots learn from human games, it sounds great to me

[pine blade]

bots even tho they are set to play like a x rated person some time play like they are set to a wildly different rating

[trim sentinel]

ye

[zealous canyon]

which one is the best? playing against a real person in OTB chess!

[mental plinth]

bots

[storm fiber]

playing with humans is better because it gives you a more organic a IRL experience as apposed to a bot which is programmed to make either the best moves or moves that a normal person would make with the elo assign to them

[thin holly]

There are many pro's and cons when it comes to human or bots

[thin holly]

I kinda agree with that one since with bots you can practice your openings playing with like a human/player that does not know that opening you study can ruin it if you can't afford courses.

[candid lion]

yeah

[static mantle]

Is this even a question?.humans - bots sometimes play randomly bad to an unrealistic level or error free with higher rated bots which is also unhuman like

[rugged brook]

Human is better because it made me learn and Bots made me bad

[alpine cape]

play bots if u wanna like have fun, play humans if you want to learn and practice

[true mesa]

I like warming up by playing against bots, and puzzles. Then to improve, I will grind 10-0 or 5-0. Also enjoy bullet to try out new openings

[remote prawn]

bots 🙂 u can play the computer at 1200-1600, good warmup without being completely overpowered or too easy, still gotta think

[polar parcel]

Humans have ideas and give chess life, even if not all our ideas work . Bots just either play perfect chess or moves without any logic. Humans >>

[candid lion]

yeah this is what I do. playing against humans is fun, but you cant do all the weird wacky doodle doo stuff against humans

[full cargo]

no buy it will say the bot is 1200 but it will play like a 700

[fathom blade]

300 from 2000 bot

then sometimes its 10 in a row

[blazing patrol]

always humans i played 4 months against bots im only 650

if i played that much against humans i would be around 900

[candid lion]

ive seen martin play the kings indian

ofc he hung his queen on the next movie

but he sucessfully completed the kings inidna

[sage plover]

Humans because if you play against bots you will know what they will play most of the time and so you will know how to counter it

Otherwise your playing against stockfish which takes 10 years to play e6

[blazing patrol]

fr

[cunning burrow]

I understand the nature of bots is irrational, but at first when I began playing I found it very stressful to play with a timer, playing a bunch with bots allowed me to learn a lot about openings, middlegames, and tactics. The takeback feature was also helpful at times. It felt as if playing with bots held me to a higher standard rather than relying on "hope" chess. Of course after some time it becomes repetitive, does not simulate real play whatsoever, and is futile, but nonetheless bots did contribute to a lot of my early improvement and let me play against "stronger players".

[quasi mantle]

Bots act like they don’t have a brain or smth

[noble cliff]

because they dont

[spark hearth]

in theory playing against very strong bots and thinking for a long time before each move is the best way to improve but I dont know if this is true in practice

[candid lion]

Yes

[polar parcel]

You don't learn anything because bots either play the top Stockfish move for many moves in a row or they blunder in the most illogical way

[spark hearth]

what aspect of the game do you not learn

I find playing against gm rated bots then analysing with game review to be very instructive

I learn at what points I went wrong and how exactly it was punished, and learn from the bots good positional and tactical play

[candid lion]

If your playing the top stockfish moves, you can probs analyze to find out why its so good and potentially use it for your own games?

[polar parcel]

As I said bots often play the top Stockfish moves. This means you will lose and it has 0 value because your games against humans won't even be remotely close to the games against bots

[polar parcel]

You don't need bots for that. Just use analysis and improve your opening ideas by using some engine ideas. Most lines won't come up in human games anyway

[candid lion]

Hmm thats true

[twilit idol]

Humans

[hasty moss]

Bots has skill issue

[dire sky]

Humans

[spark hearth]

but what aspect of the game wont you learn

you didnt asnwer that question

if that games are "valueless", that implies you learn something versus humans that you dont versus strong computers

im asking you what that is

you could argue that you better learn how to punish human mistakes, but you learn that from the bot who will punish your own human mistakes

[uncut raft]

bots

[karmic flicker]

Hello

[modest token]

bots thinks consistently, always the same amount of moves forward, same ideas every position, and when they make a blunder it is only because it's a bad bot and it didn't find it was a blunder because the amount of moves it calculates. A human can sometimes do blunders and have 10 moves forward ideas at the same game, so bots are best to play against to improve at consistency, but humans are best for everything else.

[rapid fern]

Humans ofc

[fair smelt]

I feel like with bots even if you blunder a million times and lose 10-0 it doesn't really affect you psychologically, you just click rematch. But with humans especially us amateurs we just have this feeling of "why am I so bad", knowing there's another guy on the other screen laughing about how we just blundered horribly.

And ofc if you need to improve you can just play bots stronger than you, the more you play them the closer you get the drawing

the close you get to winning

[dapper vortex]

I think playing against humans is better because sometimes bots dont play like the elo it is supposed to play also bots no matter what elo it is, it still makes lots of blunders