Let us know if you have any permission issues setting up polls and such
#next-move-discussion
compact gale
river prawn
I want to play the Berlin Defense and see if we can stop the low Elo players from blundering. This will accomplish several things.
- We know right away if we are in control of the game
- If The World makes an obvious blunder on move 5, it will look really embarrassing for chess.com and they will be much more likely to implement changes to future "X vs the World" games
if we can control the game, I believe we can play more accurately than Kasparov in his game against Polgar in the Berlin Wall
Woohoo modern theory
It's amazing what 20 years will do
compact gale
Ah, control, such a fleeting illusion
Just when you think you have it, you don't
But I respect the effort to organize a team spirit
river prawn
either we get control of the game and know we have control of the game, or the game is over on the spot but chess.com has to change their rules to make future "X vs the World" games much better
it's basically a protest move
I mean 3..Nf6 is objectively fine, I play it in online chess
but that's not why I want to play it
I'm fine with a Berlin Wall
compact gale
It's an early test, good idea
river prawn
yes
the problem with the GothamChess game was there wasn't really an early test
I mean the failure of 6.h4/7.h4 was sort of a test
and 5.Bd3 nearly getting voted for was also a test, although that was only as close as it was because of botting
but there was no "play the only correct move or have a losing position" at any point during that game
compact gale
The early test was passed against MC, but came oh so close to losing on the spot
median wraith
e5 is now leading with 39%
compact gale
And there was another anti-positional mistake a few moves later. Quite surprising that we survived that.
river prawn
i found a line where the best moves are the most common moves at low Elo
that's with 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 tho
5.d4 is a whole other problem
5.Re1 Nd6! is necessary
if we can play that and then avoid 6.Nxe5 Nxb5??, the rest is easy
- e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Nxe5 7. Rxe5+ Be7 8. Bf1 O-O 9. Nc3 Bf6 10. Re1 Re8 11. Nd5 Rxe1 12. Qxe1 b6 13. Nxf6+ Qxf6 14. d3 Bb7 15. Qb4 c5 16. Qf4 Qxf4 17. Bxf4 Nf5
look
if 5.d4 is played we are probably cooked
Even relatively high Elo players don't know about 5..Nd6
5..exd4 will be played and the game will be over on the spot
gloomy sentinel
chat why not c5
remote totem
chat why not c5
because the 400 elo players voting for random shit will blunder a lot faster in sicilian
also the votes are already leaning for e5 at the moment
gloomy sentinel
where do i vote
remote totem
cc
river prawn
because the 400 elo players voting for random shit will blunder a lot faster in ...
not if we play the Berlin, they'll blunder on move 5
remote totem
they gotta limit these modes to 1200elo
river prawn
they gotta limit these modes to 1200elo
That’s blocking 90+% of chess.com
idk the exact percentage
fiery delta
When I saw Judit plays 1. e4, I thinked about the 1. .. e5 straight away. Then I checked the chat. I saw people want to play Sicilian or Caro-Kann which were unsatisfied of the voting so far, blaming people not reading the chat. I think that such early plan doesn't make a major impact. 1. .. e5 is a normal, open game, which I prefer. Good chance to develop the pieces and obeying chess principles by the players. Then I read the current vote status in the chat where 1. .. e5 was winning. Then I thinked or a while, and just put my vote for 1. .. e5. In my opinion semi-close and close game are for more advanced players too.
fiery delta
I hope that game goes into beautiful Italian game, which has interesting options and solid development. Up for now 7% of people votes for Scandinavian defence (4th place), which intends to put Queen way too fast. I'm glad that first 3 places are for solid moves and also 5% for French defense.
fiery delta
she is going to play ruy lopez and win
Yes, Ruy-Lopez (Spanish game) is another option, chosen by many top players. I admit I didn't play this opening, I played against Scandinavian defence and Pirc defense mostly as White. As Black I almost always chose 1. .. e5, don't "feel" the idea behind Sicilian defense, frankly.
remote totem
what is this chatgpt ahh response
fiery delta
what is this chatgpt ahh response
? Telling the truth. I'm not a chat expert anyway. I'm just interested in chess.
tender grove
fiery delta
Sorry if I was misunderstood. Maybe it's my English. I just prefer open game if White plays 1. e4. Don't have experience with 1. ... c5, Sicilian.
indigo summit
I would want to play c5 it is exciting and even if white knows in depth theory black is fine however pretty few who will vote would be comfortable in these positions so let's just play e5 something that is principled.
strong shell
French has been squandered once again 😔
vagrant pelican
Where?
tawny fable
fiery delta
I'm studying some Spanish game from the book about openings (author: Mirosława Litmanowicz). The theory is described even upto move 18. I hope that Judit plays Italian, maybe Evan's Gambit. But we must be prepared for Ruy-Lopez, like was stated. It seems I didn't play Spanish game before. I play on-line rarely, only with my father and some friends.
inner iron
Judit just played Nf3.
compact gale
2... Nc6 has large lead 76% (1500) votes in first hour
pearl rover
I guess we gonna play some ruy lopez
river prawn
I wanted f4
That was never going to happen
river prawn
I'm studying some Spanish game from the book about openings (author: Mirosława L...
Oh, it goes way deeper than move 18
crude gull
That was never going to happen
Why not, she likes King’s Gambit. It’s not as strong, but it’s not a rated game, so…
fiery delta
Oh, it goes way deeper than move 18
The opening theory presented in that book goes upto ~18 move and covers some main variants of Spanish game. All these variants are described in details, by giving the pros and cons. From 18th move on, it appears to be middle-game.
I voted for Nc6. And I'm glad of the moves so far. It appears to go into one of my favourite openings. As of King's Gambit - it is risky, additionally Italian game allows for standard piece development and if people continue to vote on such good, solid moves, it may be nice matchup.
river prawn
@fallow flare you voted for Other on 3.Bb5, which is the most likely move to be played by Judit Polgar. What do you suggest instead of the options provided?
fiery delta
<@199125406878662658> you voted for Other on 3.Bb5, which is the most likely mov...
I meant the voting in the actual game. Did you mean next-move-polls? I didn't check it until now. I'll vote for next moves.
river prawn
I meant the voting in the actual game. Did you mean next-move-polls? I didn't ch...
The vote for move 2 isn't even close, which is why we can create the polls for move 3 now.
river prawn
Vote totals in comparison with correspondence database
Should I create move 4 polls for the most likely move 3 options?
crude gull
No
river prawn
ok
crude gull
It’ll get too confusing imo
river prawn
fine
I want to play the Berlin Defense but I'm worried people don't know the line
After 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4 5.d4, 5..Nd6! is not an easy move to spot
you kind of just have to know it's the only good move
beginners will spam 5..exd4? or 5..Nxd4? and lose the e4 knight to an obvious pin
fiery delta
Moves beyond 18th are described in the book I mentioned, but only on practical example games. They are even 20 or 30 move long games. The main line after 3. Bb5 is 3. .. a6 - it is describe thoroughly - with "open variant", "close variant" and "exchange variant" and "5. d4". And that what I chose if Judit plays Ruy-Lopez. If she goes 3. Bc4, I reply with 3. .. Bc5. This line is also described.
river prawn
Moves beyond 18th are described in the book I mentioned, but only on practical e...
3.Bc4 what is 3..Bd4
that's not a legal move
do you mean 3..Bc5?
fiery delta
that's not a legal move
Sorry, yes. I meant Bc5. Fixed now.
river prawn
yeah ok figured
crude gull
beginners will spam 5..exd4? or 5..Nxd4? and lose the e4 knight to an obvious pi...
exd4 doesn’t lose on the spot but, after Re1, you have to find f5
river prawn
that's still terrible for black
crude gull
Most people play d5 and lose
crude gull
that's still terrible for black
White has a slight advantage, it’s probably a draw with perfect play
But let’s try not to play that
river prawn
Most people play d5 and lose
I am certain Judit Polgar knows or can calculate 5..exd4? 6.Re1 d5 7.Nxd4 Bd6!? 8. Nxc6 Bxh2+! 9.Kh1!! Qh4! 10.Rxe4+! dxe4 11.Qd8+! Qxd8 12.Nxd8+ Kxd8 13.Kxh2
crude gull
I am certain Judit Polgar knows or can calculate 5..exd4? 6.Re1 d5 7.Nxd4 Bd6!? ...
Even I know it, so I’m certain she does too. This is indeed terrible.
coral brambleBOT
https://lichess.org/MJxABT5V
river prawn
although let's be honest here
if we vote for 5..exd4?, there is no way 6..f5! wins
what's going to happen is 5..exd4? 6.Re1 d5? 7.Nxd4 Bd7 8.f3 Nxd4 9.Bxd7+ Qxd7 10.Qxd4 Bc5? 11.Qxc5 gg
ooh, pin the queen
crude gull
I doubt the Berlin is going to be played in the first place tbh
We can think of it if it does
river prawn
i don't know, the Berlin is more common than the Morphy at low level
fiery delta
I doubt the Berlin is going to be played in the first place tbh
I think that the a6 is going to be voted by most players after Bb5. And I'm happy, since it's same solid like Nc6 - and this opening is described with many examples in my book.
crude gull
I think that the a6 is going to be voted by most players after Bb5. And I'm happ...
Yeah I’d be fine too
vagrant pelican
I think that the a6 is going to be voted by most players after Bb5. And I'm happ...
That was played against Divis as well https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/369306
crude gull
Yeah I’d be fine too
Real test is the 4th move imo, if 4. Ba4 is played.
If 4… b5 gets voted, which is a completely fine move but not often played at top level, it means people are just voting without thinking or researching much
river prawn
yeah
that game was a joke
white won a pawn in the opening and then traded everything off, reaching a winning king and pawn endgame easily
you can tell Divis played slightly dubiously after 6..0-0
lost cosmos
Real test is the 4th move imo, if 4. Ba4 is played.
If 4… b5 gets voted, which ...
4...b5 is actually a line, it's just rare
river prawn
you can tell Divis played slightly dubiously after 6..0-0
I don't think Judit Polgar will play like that
crude gull
4...b5 is actually a line, it's just rare
It’s completely fine but it’s usually played by beginners
fiery delta
That was played against Divis as well https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/36930...
In this variant where White plays 5. O-O in Spanish game, is called "open variant". But then Black should capture the e4 pawn with Knight, according to theory.
lost cosmos
It’s completely fine but it’s usually played by beginners
personally I play it lol, and I have like 60% win rate with it
after a6 I would recommend Nf6 though
then b5. I play a lot of archangel
river prawn
there are way too many ways we can screw up after 3..a6
fiery delta
I agree with 4. .. Nf6. But let's see how the game actually continues.
lost cosmos
there are way too many ways we can screw up after 3..a6
same as berlin. Most people don't even know the theory
river prawn
no
the Berlin has far less ways to screw up
and those ways happen right away
so either we play the best move or get annihilated
lost cosmos
no offense but we need more 2k+ players here
lost cosmos
is this ragebait
river prawn
those players vote Nf6 more than 1000 elo players
im not making this up
U1000 lichess
1000-1200
1200-1400
1400-1600
1600-1800
1800-2000
2000-2200
lost cosmos
it seems pretty obvious that stronger players play a6
river prawn
2200-2500
2500+
so yeah, middle strength players favor 3..d6?
low strength player favor 3..Nf6
high strength players favor 3..a6
3..a6 4.Ba4 b5 is most common up to about 1600
lost cosmos
do 3...a6 4. Ba4 Nf6
fiery delta
Important question is whether Judit captures our Knight in Ruy-Lopez and going to exchange or just put back to a4. Still don't know if it's Spanish though.
river prawn
Important question is whether Judit captures our Knight in Ruy-Lopez and going t...
nobody at high level captures the knight
river prawn
and you can do either Be7 or b5 next, either is fine with me
Bc5?! was played in the Divid game
lost cosmos
nobody at high level captures the knight
that's not true, ruy exchange is a legitimate line. Fabi plays it
river prawn
look
if we play the Morphy Defense, we will have to deal with stopping bad moves for a long time
if we play the Berlin Defense, we only have to worry about 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 or 5.d4 Nd6
i have no doubt that we can avoid 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Nxb5?? assuming we play 5..Nd6
Divis saw the game for what it is, a joke
you can see how Divis played, avoiding slightly better moves in favor of trading down to an easily winning endgame
lost cosmos
my issue with that is that nobody actually knows the berlin theory, so it requires stronger players to steer the flow of the game anyway, and in that case, I'd rather just play something a bit more modern and dynamic
river prawn
wdym
5.Re1 leads to positions where the most common moves at low level are the best moves
and the Berlin Wall is a purely positional opening
lost cosmos
Bc5?! was played in the Divid game
btw i just checked with masters database, Bc5 is way down on the list. Usually Be7 or b5 are the top two options
river prawn
yeah
that's because it's trash
see, in the GothamChess game, the Caro-Kann is easy for low Elo players to play
and in the Anand game, the English led to a much more positional opening
it took several known mistakes in the GothamChess game for us to lose
in the Ruy Lopez, if you screw up you are cooked
see the Berlin Defense gives us a chance for a clear best move
in the Divid game, both b5 and d6 were better than 0-0?
but if we play 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4, after 5.d4 or 5.Re1, 5..Nd6 is the only good move
okay I guess 5.d4 a6 and 5.d4 Be7 are okay
but every good player knows you need to play 5..Nd6
the chat will be nearly completely unified
and if that's not enough, then I will hand the job of making polls off to someone else
lost cosmos
berlin endgame is also notorious for black to handle, and white is always a bit slightly better
you think a bunch of 600s are gonna handle it well??
river prawn
better than mainline Morphy Defense
fiery delta
btw i just checked with masters database, Bc5 is way down on the list. Usually B...
I mentioned that the Nxe4 is what should be played there - at least I read such information.
lost cosmos
I mentioned that the Nxe4 is what should be played there - at least I read such ...
personally that move isn't on my mind, but if you want to play the open spanish, then go for it
lost cosmos
better than mainline Morphy Defense
sorry, I disagree
river prawn
sorry, I disagree
i don't mean from an objective standpoint, I mean for this game
if we play the mainline Morphy Defense, it will be just like Divid
lost cosmos
ugh, it's whatever. We will see what she plays next. I'll always be on the team a6 though.
fiery delta
personally that move isn't on my mind, but if you want to play the open spanish,...
I was refering to the linked Divis game and move number 5. O-O Bc5. I guess we talk about same thing. I'm not experienced with Spanish game. Will play what I read in book and according to discussion.
lost cosmos
oh
river prawn
this is why when I teach beginners I tell them to play the Italian
and the Berlin Defense as black
lost cosmos
I was refering to the linked Divis game and move number 5. O-O Bc5. I guess we t...
you have so many options. You can play closed Ruy, open ruy, or the archangel with b5 and Bc5
btw if Bc4 I'd just recommend the simple Bc5 and we play a traditional italian game
fiery delta
you have so many options. You can play closed Ruy, open ruy, or the archangel wi...
Yes, I understand. I also wrote about it a while ago, listed the Spanish game options, which I found in the book. 5. O-O is the move which starts the open variant of Spanish game, so White decides about it. But I don't want to go too much ahead. And I also expect traditional Italian.
tawny abyss
I still prefer the more confrontational Spanish personally
lost cosmos
if Bc4 happens, if you're feeling spicy, I can you can do Nf6 instead of the more traditional Bc5. Personally I play both, so either is fine with me. Just please do not get into a fried liver
tawny abyss
Italian has a reputation for being very drawish, which is why it's been overtaken by the Spanish
river prawn
@viscid karma you voted for Other for the 3.Bb5 poll, what do you suggest?
river prawn
top level players have been playing more italian these days
mainly because of the Berlin Defense
fiery delta
Italian is just pretty and popular. After 1. e4 and 2. Sf3 I expect Judit to play something that is known to majority of players, even low-level (I'm 1200).
lost cosmos
mainly because of the Berlin Defense
yeah you're right about that
river prawn
Italian is just pretty and popular. After 1. e4 and 2. Sf3 I expect Judit to pla...
we've looked at her past games. She plays the Ruy Lopez 90-95% of the time
depending on which games you count
lost cosmos
just make sure to play d5 here if this ever happens
tawny abyss
top level players have been playing more italian these days
Ah, I don't follow high level Chess tbqh because hypermodern play scares me
I understand the theory (it transposes back into more traditional positions) but I don't have the confidence nor skill to follow that kind of stuff
lost cosmos
oh and please do not take back on d5 with Nxd5. Do something like Na5
fiery delta
we've looked at her past games. She plays the Ruy Lopez 90-95% of the time
OK, thanks for such info. So she might test us of the Spanish game. The time will show.
tawny abyss
we've looked at her past games. She plays the Ruy Lopez 90-95% of the time
Is there a particlar line she's fond of?
tawny abyss
I'm going to find out in the dumbest way possible, give me a second
lost cosmos
Eh, at the end of the day, I believe we're going to lose (personal opinion). So for me, having fun is more important
tawny abyss
We can still try and learn something. That's the main point of these anyway, isn't it?
lost cosmos
yeah for sure, you're right
the only chance of winning is that if we have an army of 2k+ players steering the game
but that's very unlikely imo
fiery delta
I understand the theory (it transposes back into more traditional positions) but...
My opinion is similar. Just before this match I was going to put the trusty wooden chess-board with current position of Judit Polgar vs World and analyze some variants on it.
So many people votes for Nc6, which means it's going to be better game than GothamChess one. More solid.
tawny abyss
I mean, Levy's also a meme magnet, so there was that going for him as well
lost cosmos
we were completely lost after c5 in levy's game
at least positionally. that was just atrocious
and somehow they decided to push pawns in front of their king
vagrant pelican
My opinion is similar. Just before this match I was going to put the trusty wood...
Sorry but Nc6 proves nothing. It is the most common move
We played solid moves in the opening in Gotham game as well
fiery delta
We played solid moves in the opening in Gotham game as well
I joined the GothamChess game from 5th move. So far the top-voted responses are nice: e5, c5, c6 in first move and now the Nc6. I understand it's early to predict that people will play thoroughly analyzed moves, and listen to high-level players. But it's also too early to predict the loss. I'm optimistic here.
pearl rover
I want to play the Berlin Defense but I'm worried people don't know the line
It would be funny to play the same line as in the game between Judit and Kasparov.
river prawn
I joined the GothamChess game from 5th move. So far the top-voted responses are ...
no way, we are cooked
tawny abyss
Weird, UbiSoft only had Judit's games up until 2000. Importing literally all of them and then removing the dupes. (Yes, I'm using a ChessMaster program because it has a searchable database that lets me see the moves played in a game)
Though Chess.com says she generally plays Berlin, that requires a specific response from Black
lost cosmos
people most definitely don't know the berlin theory lol
yall can forget about it
also to play the berlin ending well, it requires a high level of positional play. So it's not a realisitic opening for people to play well
river prawn
also to play the berlin ending well, it requires a high level of positional play...
you really think we'd play the Closed Ruy Lopez, Open Ruy Lopez, or Marshall Attack any better?
get the queens off the board before we do something stupid
lost cosmos
you really think we'd play the Closed Ruy Lopez, Open Ruy Lopez, or Marshall Att...
true
I mean we're just gonna lose
unless you can truly steer the game
and even then, a super GM is a tough opponent
tawny abyss
people most definitely don't know the berlin theory lol
The good news, Berlin lines are completely seperate from Morphy lines in that we don't play a6, just skip that and go straight into Nf6
fiery delta
and even then, a super GM is a tough opponent
It's true that we have GM Judit Polgar as opponent, highly skilled and talented player. But such match began. I think that we should try. I hope for some good moves. I'm curious how many moves in the opening will have reflection in theory and how people will vote in complicated middle-game, given that we got into that stage.
tawny abyss
It appears that she's stronger with the main lines than the Berlin, which she draws
We might be more cooked than we thought
river prawn
i want to play the Berlin Defense because it clearly shows if we're in control
like we could easily play 5.d4 exd4 and get annihilated
if we avoid that it means we're in control
and if we play 5.d4 exd4, I will suggest 6.Re1 f5 which will obviously fail to 6..d5
and then 7.Nxd4 I will suggest 7..Bd6 as a last chance but 7..Bd7 will win. After 8.f3, I will vote to resign
sharp magnet
get the queens off the board before we do something stupid
We won't do anything too stupid but the rest will with or without queens
river prawn
Look
I think we should hold our votes on move 3 until we know d6 won’t win
Because both a6 and Nf6 are better than d6
sharp magnet
Oh were that far along
river prawn
No
We’re voting on move 2 right now but it’s not even close
And we know Judit Polgar is very likely to play the Ruy Lopez
Low Elo data shows a relatively even distribution between a6, Nf6, and d6
Bc5 not far behind
So this may be one of the few votes we can influence
Our team seems to narrowly prefer a6 over Nf6
It’s not enough to make a recommendation tho
All the other moves we can make a recommendation tho
sharp magnet
Probably doesnt matter but Nf6 should be safer
river prawn
I don’t know
Because 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6! is almost impossible to find unless you know about it
5.Re1 Nd6 is equally difficult
You just have to know it’s the only good move
But if we survive that, we’re fine
vagrant pelican
Everyone is probably using the opening book
Oh please don’t assume that. Most people unfortunately just vote their mind
Were you in previous … vs the World games?
sharp magnet
Were you in previous … vs the World games?
Mostly spectating
sharp magnet
How long is this message
river prawn
2..Nc6 has a very large margin over all other moves. It will win. Here are our team’s recommendations for move 3 for all reasonable responses for Judit Polgar.
If Judit Polgar plays 3.Bb5, we are currently debating between 3..a6 and 3..Nf6. We plan to hold our votes initially in case 3..d6 or 3..Bc5 is leading, in which case we will vote for whichever of 3..a6 or 3..Nf6 has the best chance of beating 3..d6 or 3..Bc5.
If Judit Polgar plays 3.Bc4, the Italian, we will play 3..Bc5, the Giuoco Piano, avoiding any risk of the Fried Liver.
If Judit Polgar plays 3.d4, the Scotch, we will play 3..exd4, trading pawns, the only good move.
If Judit Polgar plays 3.Nc3, the Three Knights, we will play 3..Nf6, the Four Knights.
If Judit Polgar plays 3.c3, the Ponziani, we will play 3..Nf6, the sharp Jaenisch Counterattack.
If for some unusual reason Judit Polgar plays 3.d3, 3.Be2, or 3.g3, all rare passive moves, we will develop our knight with 3..Nf6.
Join our team at [X]
I don’t know the chess.com link for this server off the top of my head
Oh forgot something
All the polls except for the 3.Bb5 poll have a clear lead for one move
Personally I prefer 3..d5 against the Ponziani but I’ve been outvoted
I don’t really care that much though, I find it highly unlikely that she would play the Ponziani
sharp magnet
2..Nc6 has a very large margin over all other moves. It will win. Here are our t...
Too long nobody cares
river prawn
Then split it up into different messages
sharp magnet
Fair
sharp magnet
river prawn
Did you see the list of possible reasons?
sharp magnet
What reasons
river prawn
What reasons
- Posting Patrick (from SpongeBob) drooling whenever someone proposed a bad move sequence
- Posting the entire Bee Movie script
- Posting “PATZERS GO HOME”
- Excessive use of large font size
- Posting an entire 1.4 MB PGN file as text and nearly crashing the server
- Posting the FitnessGram Pacer Test copypasta
- Replying to a troll who made long messages, thus making those messages show up in my messages
- Excessive use of all caps
- Posting anime catgirl images
- Suggesting playing a move sequence with a high chance of The World voting for a blunder with the express goal of making the game be functionally over in less than 10 moves to create bad publicity for chess.com in an attempt to force them to change their Vote Chess rules
sharp magnet
World team admin
river prawn
The sequence for 10 is 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4, since we’re almost certain to blunder with 5.Re1 d5? or 5.d4 exd4?
river prawn
World team admin
I’ve learned my lesson
My mute will expire right when move 3 voting is almost done, depending on when she moves
If the vote is close, it will remain close throughout the voting period
sharp magnet
I’ve learned my lesson
How have you learned your lesson already
river prawn
Whatever you do, don’t vote right away
river prawn
How have you learned your lesson already
Not really, considering I got muted for a similarly long potential list of reasons in the GothamChess game
sharp magnet
It's been a day or so from the sequence
river prawn
If we get a losing position before move 10, I’m quitting my job as Poll Master
sharp magnet
Not really, considering I got muted for a similarly long potential list of reaso...
Those are all from this match 
river prawn
Those are all from this match <:Starege:1078430335341187153>
Yes 💀
river prawn
Nearly crashed the server at one point lol
sharp magnet
Definitely an achievement
river prawn
I’m surprised they let you paste over 1 MB of text into a message
sharp magnet
I love how the world team is working against the world team
river prawn
?
river prawn
wdym
The sequence is objectively sound
The issue is that the World is very likely to blunder instead of playing correctly
But this is different from the GothamChess game
In the GothamChess game, all of the mistakes were in positions where there were multiple good moves
Here there’s only one good move
Also can someone that’s not muted tell Palladium01 that giving 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Nxe5? a question mark is unjustified because of 7.Nc3 Be7 8.Rxe5 0-0, transposing
6..Nxe5 is perfectly fine, it’s 7..Nxb5 that’s the mistake
Also white almost never plays 7.Nc3, choosing instead to play 7.Rxe5+ almost always
The only other move that ever gets played is 7.Bf1, and once again, 7..Be7 8.Rxe5 0-0 transposes
river prawn
6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Bf1 Be7 8.Rxe5 0-0 9.Nc3
6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Nc3 Be7 8.Rxe5 0-0 9.Bf1
6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Rxe5+ Be7 8.Bf1 0-0 9.Nc3
6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Rxe5+ Be7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bf1
6.Nxe5 Be7 7.Bf1 Nxe5 8.Rxe5 0-0 9.Nc3
They all transpose
🗿
remote totem
i hate it when everything keeps transposing
river prawn
i hate it when everything keeps transposing
why, it's less things to worry about
bright crater
Lily what's your lichess rating
river prawn
Lily what's your lichess rating
2000 on my old account, then I said id take a few months and get to 2000 on sparkchess (i have no idea what lichess/chess.com rating that is equivalent to), but that ended up being about 2 years. Last Wenesday, I finally hit 2000, so I'm going to start playing rated games on lichess again
i have a few rated games on chess.com
because people kept saying i was too low Elo during the last vote chess game
so I played them and won
coral brambleBOT
Name: Lily Fleming (rubiconlily)
Premium Member: False
Moderator or Staff: False
Streamer: False
Rapid: 1005 (peak)
Blitz: 1495 (peak)
fiery delta
I hope that some Italian game will be played by Judit. When I was saying about Spanish game being played by top players I meant the FIDE world champion matches of Magnus Carlsen and Nepo. Later on Ding and also current champion - Gukesh played some different openings like the French defense, which gave fresh breath to the format. Italian is simply beauty, because it gives both players ability for harmonous piece development.
slow breach
Hi all! Just joining the chat. I definitely like the idea of playing 3...Nf6 against the Italian and Ruy Lopez. If we can handle the initial complications as a team, we will have quite an interesting game on our hands. 🙂
river prawn
Hi all! Just joining the chat. I definitely like the idea of playing 3...Nf6 aga...
You think we could play the Berlin Wall better than Kasparov? Judit Polgar famously beat him against that
im going to search my correspondence databases for some lines that haven't made it to Master play yet
- e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 f5 17. f4 Kh8 18. Bxd5 cxd5 19. Nd2 Rfe8 20. Qf1 Qh5 is an interesting idea
slow breach
im going to search my correspondence databases for some lines that haven't made ...
I don't know if we can play better than Kasparov, but I do hope she plays less strongly than Polgar in that game! 🙂
I think the Berlin is a very solid, stragetically rich system. This should avoid early fireworks and really dig in to the trenches for an extended battle. I do also like your logic about promoting a move that will force an early team crisis.
river prawn
I don't know if we can play better than Kasparov, but I do hope she plays less s...
there's a lot of theory that didn't exist 25 years ago
Kasparove played 9.Nc3 h6, both 9..Bd7 and 9..Ke8 are considered better now
oh and 9..Be7
slow breach
Yes, indeed. I do have some content on the Berlin, so happy to dig in if we reach the wall 🙂
I wouldn't be shocked to see 4. d3 from Judit, however.
river prawn
9..h6 is one of those moves that is also unlikely to be voted for by the team
slow breach
Assuming we get more support than 3...Bc5, and assuming she plays the Ruy (I wouldn't be shocked to see the Italiane ither)
river prawn
which is good because the modern consensus is that it's not as good as the other moves
river prawn
Assuming we get more support than 3...Bc5, and assuming she plays the Ruy (I wou...
im more worried about 3..d6
3.Bb5 d6
slow breach
Sure, but then we have clarity about what's really going on in the match.
Surprisingly, 3...d6 is playable, BTW!
slow breach
As you noted, we need to keep a practical mindset in this game. We'll see what trends we can promote and what we might find ourselves reacting to as well.
slow breach
Definitely a good choice - I think if she plays the Ruy, it's unlikely she'll head down that line.
slow breach
- d3 is something she can easily freestyle and keep more tension in the game.
river prawn
definitely not the Berlin Draw
slow breach
I predict 4. d3 if we get there, but we'll see. 🙂
river prawn
4. d3 is something she can easily freestyle and keep more tension in the game.
then we should go for the sharp 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 0-0 6.0-0 d5!?, striking in the center right away
i mean 6..d6 is alright
slow breach
Sure, good to start preparing. I think she is not going to want to commit to some long, drawn out Berlin Endgame struggle. I would certainly play 4. d3 vs the community and just give us more opportunity to misplay a complex position and lose quickly. We'll see - it will be interesting! 🙂
We'll learn quite a bit in the next few moves.
river prawn
Sure, good to start preparing. I think she is not going to want to commit to som...
If I was Judit Polgar and I wanted a quick win, I would play 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4, knowing the World Team would repeatedly make mistakes with 5..exd4?! 6.Re1 d5? 7.Nxd4 Bd7? 8.f3 +-
The GothamChess game showed the average skill level of The World
Although if I was Judit Polgar, I would play 3.Bc4 to at least give The World a chance
because even though 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4 is theory, it still feels like a trap
If I was playing against The World, I wouldn’t want to win in less than 10 moves
I don’t know if Judit Polgar feels the same way
fiery delta
Although if I was Judit Polgar, I would play 3.Bc4 to at least give The World a ...
I'm thinking the same way. Judit is playing friendly moves so far. She gives as chance for some friendly match. On our side, some teamplay is involved. I am going to vote 3. .. Bc5 on Italian, since it's classic response, and 3. .. a6 on Spanish game. I wonder if the voters look at some theory books and vote for moves that are described and tested in the opening. The problem might occur if Judit plays a trap, or a sacrifice, but it shouldn't happen because of reason above. 24 hours might be even too short for players to test the responses.
slow breach
I'm thinking the same way. Judit is playing friendly moves so far. She gives as ...
Yes, also a very reasonable path and we may very much see those moves on the board. 🙂
river prawn
I'm thinking the same way. Judit is playing friendly moves so far. She gives as ...
"Friendly moves"? She's played the most common moves
that doesn't mean anything
tawny abyss
I'm thinking the same way. Judit is playing friendly moves so far. She gives as ...
24 hours too short? Laughs in Daily
fiery delta
24 hours too short? *Laughs in Daily*
I meant that, based on GothamChess match, many many voters play moves which - perhaps - they don't test, even in given time period.
fiery delta
that doesn't mean anything
Yes, we will see. Those are common, but there's so many difficult opening to choose. She has chosen the open game 1. e4 e5 and some of the more common which means relatively easy, openings. Italian for example.
river prawn
She doesn’t normally play the Italian
If she does, I think that will be because she’s going easy on us
I think she’ll play the Ruy Lopez
tawny abyss
She did go for the Spanish
lost cosmos
a6 voted
fiery delta
Yes, I see. You were right about her preference. I also going to vote a6 🙂
tawny abyss
I'm shocked people would think otherwise. As White it's better to have on opening you can play multiple lines of than having to memorize a bunch of disparate openings for "variety", since your opening is also your plan. Or at least so I've heard
crude gull
I'm shocked people would think otherwise. As White it's better to have on openin...
Um… we’re talking about a super GM
What you said is true for you and me
But I can assure you she knows 3. Bc4 and 3. d4 lines very well
river prawn
what are the vote totals
tawny abyss
So far, it's mostly a6
river prawn
has anyone voted
tawny abyss
At least when I voted
river prawn
im not voting yet
river prawn
okay but what's in second
crude gull
Nf6
lost cosmos
has anyone voted
I voted a6. I sure as hell wouldn't be listening to you
river prawn
how far back are d6 and Bc5
crude gull
how far back are d6 and Bc5
Very
river prawn
oh good
crude gull
d6 has 45 votes
river prawn
wow, that's far less than i expected
crude gull
Bc5 has 23
river prawn
I will hold my vote, see if the vote is close
lost cosmos
a6 is just the much flexible, more dynamic, and stronger option at higher levels
river prawn
look
i want to play a6
i like it better
i just don't trust us to play accurately after that
but if d6 and Bc5 are that far down
that's a good sign
although the early vote is usually not representative of the entire voting base
remember, 1..c5 led early
scenic nest
i think a6 is solid though
river prawn
i will be holding my vote to see what the Bc5 and d6 percentages are
if they are low, I will vote a6
if they are high, I will vote Nf6
scenic nest
yeah
river prawn
but do you understand why my vote changes
scenic nest
yeah
river prawn
The less votes for d6 and Bc5, the more confident I feel about a6
the chat is relatively evenly divided
scenic nest
river prawn
what are the vote totals now
river prawn
just take a screenshot and send it
tawny abyss
There's no way in hell we're gonna successfully navigate a Berlin Defense
river prawn
wdym
scenic nest
river prawn
what part of the Berlin Defense are you worried about?
oh wow Nge7 is ahead of Bc5
that's surprising
tawny abyss
People knowing how to do it, mostly
river prawn
this might be a close vote
lost cosmos
Nge7 is a side line ish
tawny abyss
Oh, also the Berlin is a very defensive opening, Black just wants to keep a closed game up until the endgame. I do not trust those of us not in this chat to not immediately begin getting overly aggressive
Sure, I may only be 500 Rapid, but it also means I've seen and done horrible crimes against Chess
river prawn
keep posting the vote totals
im holding my vote for now
here's what U1200 Lichess database looks like for comparison
and with a large portion of the chat favoring Nf6, that means even less of those voters are low Elo players who aren't reading the chat
tawny abyss
here's what U1200 Lichess database looks like for comparison
Keep in mind that 1500 on Lichess = 1000 on Chess.com
river prawn
Keep in mind that 1500 on Lichess = 1000 on Chess.com
i know, the average chess.com rating for this game is around 900
adding the 1200-1400 range doesn't change much
tawny abyss
And even then, I took statistics to know that trying to get equivalent numbers is a massive pain because of how normal distributions work
river prawn
~~And even then, I took statistics to know that trying to get equivalent numbers...
just use a piecewise model lol
with linear interpolation
anyway, the low proportion of votes for d6 and Bc5 is a great sign
tawny abyss
I was going to respond wth a gif but I don't think I have embed privledges yet
river prawn
However, I don't think the current votes are representative of the entire voting base
@compact gale ping the team in #our-turn
i mean i have perms now
but you're usually the one that does it
compact gale
You can do, but ok
river prawn
i just want to know why the runoff poll was so different from the main poll
tawny abyss
I have to hope The World does its homework because lower rated players on Lichess fumble the Rio Gambit it seems because 5...exd4? is by far the most commonly played move at U1200
river prawn
5..Nxd4?? is also common
also that's not the Rio Gambit
the Rio Gambit is 5.Re1, not 5.d4
fiery delta
I voted a6 - the same like I voted in the poll in next-move-polls as a response to 3. Bb5. As I can see - the voting for this and so called Berlin is very very close at the moment. I've got no experience with Spanish, so it will be a nice experience. Maybe I'll use book I've got for some reference.
cold badge
What's the best move for us rn?
compact gale
river prawn
both a6 and Nf6 are good, and they are relatively close in vote totals, with all other (worse) moves far behind
lost cosmos
do a6
lost cosmos
What's the best move for us rn?
do a6
tawny abyss
the Rio Gambit is 5.Re1, not 5.d4
- Re1 will come afterwards, but that's just the title Lichess is giving me. Either way, the actual mainline is by far the minority choice
tawny abyss
Ke2, definitely ||not||
river prawn
6. Re1 will come afterwards, but that's just the title Lichess is giving me. Eit...
okay, I guess it's technically still the Rio Gambit, but after 5..Nd6 it's called the l'Hermet Variation
scenic nest
Nah a5 better
wise words NOW GET OUT
cold badge
Whad do we do if she goes 4..Bxc6?
river prawn
4..dxc6 but she won't do that
tawny abyss
Exchange variation is a meme
sharp magnet
wise words NOW GET OUT
What did I do 
lost cosmos
Whad do we do if she goes 4..Bxc6?
dxc6
river prawn
im assuming you're talking about 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6 and not 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.Bxc6
either way, still 4..dxc6
scenic nest
What did I do <:Sadge:754408587735859331>
sharp magnet
What does that mean
lost cosmos
people voting for berlin because it's supposed to be "drawish"💀 wait til they find out the ending is actually full of rich positional ideas and they actually have no clue what to do, mess up, and lose
river prawn
vote total update?
lost cosmos
we're playing like a professional
river prawn
the chat is tearing themselves apart over this
sharp magnet
we're playing like a professional
It's move 3
lost cosmos
river prawn
ive seen enough, the percentages are barely changing
im voting a6 because I no longer fear an opening blunder
river prawn
i actually play Nf6 online
but im not playing that against a GM
especially we we have access to databases
databases won't help us in the Berlin Wall
databases will help us in the Flohr-Zaitsev-Smyslov
lost cosmos
now put your efforts into steering people to vote for Nf6 next
river prawn
this chat is ugly
lost cosmos
I actually haven't played marshall in ages
river prawn
i think we might actually get there
with the chat mostly supporting Nf6 and a6 still leading, along with Bc5 and d6 far behind, I have more confidence than I did at any point during the GothamChess game
I think the low elo players are already starting to leave
sharp magnet
I think the low elo players are already starting to leave
I'm not leaving 
river prawn
im more talking about the Low Elo players who don't read the chat
because if you look at the chat you will vote for either Nf6 or a6
It's the low proportions of d6/Bc5 votes that are a good sign
you have to get all the way up to 2200 Lichess before you start seeing d6 and Bc5 with that low of a percentage of games
something good is happening
scenic nest
sharp magnet
something good is happening
The first few moves of all of the games have been normal
river prawn
yes, but look at the vote percentages
compare that with the Lichess game statistics
the fact that people aren't voting d6 or Bc5 means that we aren't dealing with that many low Elo players who aren't reading the chat
and that number will continue to shrink
sharp magnet
Tbf Nf6 and a6 both attack something
fiery delta
the fact that people aren't voting d6 or Bc5 means that we aren't dealing with t...
I also noticed such trend. I think that it can be verified within few next moves, which are key moves probably before middle-game. Let's hope for equal chances.
river prawn
we'll know for sure next move
low Elo players love to play 4.Ba4 b5
higher Elo voters will vote for 4.Ba4 Nf6
if 4..Nf6 wins convincingly, then we should be fine for the opening
lost cosmos
actually, I have a killer prep with Ba4 b5 (it's called the famous "Na5 Ruy), but can be very sketchy. So, do Nf6 after Ba4
sharp magnet
How killer is this prep
lost cosmos
I have like 60% win rate with this line in the blitz pool lol, but this line ultimately is sketchy
white is in bad shape if they take on e5
but don't do this in the world game. Do Nf6
sharp magnet
so b5 
lost cosmos
this line works because it's prepped by engine
it's a rare variation (officially it's called the norwegian caro variation), and many people don't know this even exists
but it's kinda like, just for fun variation. In serious games, always do Nf6
slow breach
I just voted 3...Nf6 and shared in the game chat that I suggest playing the Berlin Defense.
river prawn
I wanted to play the Berlin Defense because I figured our chances of mistakes were lower
but after seeing just how few votes 3..Bc5 and 3..d6 are getting, I realized 3..a6 is safe
@slow breach I want you to make sure the 3..a6 and the 3..Nf6 factions don't tear each other to shreds
make sure both groups understand both moves are good
this is the first time I've ever seen the chat argue against itself
that's very good
the fact that chat is not unified
slow breach
Well, I don't know if I can prevent rioting, but you're absolutely right that either move is good. I think 3...Nf6 is a good "control strategy," but of course, 3...a6 is just fine as well. 3...a6 will open the door for quite a bit of debate how we want to continue (Breyer is my preference, although Marshall and 10,000 other variations are also quite fine 🙂 )
potent cedar
but after seeing just how few votes 3..Bc5 and 3..d6 are getting, I realized 3.....
Just wondering how hopeful are we that we're not gonna get flooded with low elo players when chess.com (presumably) goes advertising it like crazy
river prawn
Well, I don't know if I can prevent rioting, but you're absolutely right that ei...
we need to make sure to avoid the Chigorin
river prawn
Just wondering how hopeful are we that we're not gonna get flooded with low elo ...
they already have been
potent cedar
Ok then we are doing ok 😊
river prawn
we need to make sure to avoid the Chigorin
i mean the Chigorin is good, but only if you play 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 exd4! 12.cxd4 exd4! 13.Nxd4 Bd7 instead of 11..Qc7
the problem with 11..Qc7 is 12.d5! and black gets squeezed
11.d4 cxd4! 12.cxd4 exd4! 13.Nxd4 Bd7 is the same idea
but there was a CM advocating for the Chigorin with 11..Qc7 before the game started
slow breach
Here's my message:
"The good news is we have two great moves. 3...Nf6 is my preference and recommendation, but if we decide to play 3...a6, this is also quite good.
It's great to see these two fantastic moves are being seriously considered. This sets the stage for what a successful team strategy requires: carefully discussing two reasonable candidate moves and deciding how to proceed as a team."
river prawn
idk if you want to bother adding something about 3..d6 and 3..Bc5 being not as good
slow breach
I think the serious battle will be if we do, indeed, vote for 3...a6, Judit will almost certainly play 4. Ba4, we need to proactively campaign AGAINST 4...b5?! the moment 3...a6 becomes the clear winner.
river prawn
idk if you want to bother adding something about 3..d6 and 3..Bc5 being not as g...
I was worried those moves would be at risk of winning
river prawn
I think the serious battle will be if we do, indeed, vote for 3...a6, Judit will...
I mean 4..b5 isn't terrible but 4..Nf6 is better
slow breach
idk if you want to bother adding something about 3..d6 and 3..Bc5 being not as g...
4...b5 is a very common reaction with less experienced players. It is playable if you have a very precise idea in mind, otherwise it very much restricts our options and leads to more difficult play.
river prawn
If we play the Closed Ruy Lopez, I recommend a line seen multiple times in the 1986 World Championship
- e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Bb7 10. d4 Re8 11. Nbd2 Bf8 12. a4 h6 13. Bc2 exd4 14. cxd4 Nb4 15. Bb1 c5 16. d5 Nd7 17. Ra3 c4
games 14 and 16
slow breach
Yes, several good options after 3...a6, which is another reason I prefer the Berlin Defense. 🙂 Magnus played the Breyer Defense throughout his career, a line also endorsed by Spassky. That is my preference is we go down that path, but as you noted, there are no shortage of alternatives!
river prawn
we can deal with those after our next challenge, stopping 4..b5
slow breach
Exactly, I sense reaching move 7 to discuss castling or d6 will be quite a luxury if we get there. 🙂
river prawn
if we get past 4..b5 we should reach that point
unless Judit Polgar deviates with some d3 line
slow breach
We'll see, ...Bc5 will remain very tempting.
slow breach
I think if we reach seven moves of theory, she may also play an Anti-Marshall idea with a4 - quite a bit to speculate. We're also overlooking another major path - intentionally or accidentally playing the Open Spanish 🙂
lol, I was just typing that at the same time.
potent cedar
4..Nf6 will probably win imo
river prawn
4..Nf6 will probably win imo
yes, because of how few people voted for 3..d6/3..Bc5
if 4..Nf6 wins convincingly, then I will have great confidence in this game
who needs an engine when there is prep assembled with supercomputers
fiery delta
Yes, several good options after 3...a6, which is another reason I prefer the Ber...
Thank you very much for your advice. I respect it. I'm glad that the 3. .. a6 is also mentioned as a "good alternative". The gap is smaller but I guess this move will win. We don't have pressure on e4 yet, but we could do in following moves.
fiery delta
It's 7% now but still 300+ votes more.
river prawn
1558-1244
slow breach
I made one last comment to endorse 3...Nf6 as well as remain positive about 3...a6 , forecasting the problems of 4...b5?! that I think will be a serious competitor. I'm signing off for the night, but will look forward to connecting tomorrow.
river prawn
The largest margin that ever reversed was slightly over 400
even then, the move that was leading initially won narrowly
471
i checked
I will wait until the margin reaches 500 to post polls
lost cosmos
I just voted 3...Nf6 and shared in the game chat that I suggest playing the Berl...
people vote for berlin because it's drawish, but they don't realize that they actually have to display a high level of positional play to play the notorious endgame well
remote totem
i need a summary on all this lmao
river prawn
wdym
Initially, I wanted to vote for 3..Nf6 because I didn't trust us to play the positions after 3..a6 accurately. However, the percentages for 3..Bc5 and 3..d6 were much lower than predicted, indicating less low Elo players than expected. Because of that, I voted for 3..a6 with confidence. 3..a6 has 37% and 3..Nf6 has 30% and the margin is gradually increasing
Nobody seems to have commented on how the 3..Bc5 and 3..d6 percentages being low is a great sign
lost cosmos
Nobody seems to have commented on how the 3..Bc5 and 3..d6 percentages being low...
those moves weren't even on my mind💀
river prawn
low elo players love them
3..d6 is actually the most common move on lichess in the 1400-1800 range
potent cedar
Maybe the world will win 😊
remote totem
theres still about 600 people to watch out for tbf
lost cosmos
actually you know some options they voted for aren't too terrible. For example, Nd4 is a legitimate subsystem of the Ruy
potent cedar
Yh, hopefully the 12 who voted qh4 will keep quiet😂
fiery delta
Nobody seems to have commented on how the 3..Bc5 and 3..d6 percentages being low...
I made one comment about this trend. I hope for this Nf6 moves in our 4th move, not b5, which weakens our queenside.
river prawn
f5 is also legitimate
💀
lost cosmos
and it turns a positional game into a sharp tactical battle
remote totem
f5 is also legitimate
lost cosmos
I just don't play it
remote totem
how about the rest of the stuff
river prawn
it's trash
remote totem
they still make up like 10% of the votes overall
lost cosmos
it's trash
white has to know the line though
lost cosmos
coral brambleBOT
https://lichess.org/Sxov6E94#26
remote totem
not a game where the opponent must sit their and calculate
lost cosmos
but ya I don't play it
lost cosmos
it showed up in the ruy course I took a few years ago
fiery delta
It's now 350+ more votes on 3. .. a6.
remote totem
or berlin 21 65 14
lost cosmos
as opposed to a6 30 51 19
yeah i voted for a6
remote totem
ig if ur playing for a win sure
lost cosmos
ive always been team a6
remote totem
but it doesnt make much sense for f5 to be played in correspondence
lost cosmos
fair enough
sharp magnet
Yall gonna be doing this for the next 20 hours?
lost cosmos
Yall gonna be doing this for the next 20 hours?
nah im out of here
a6 already won, I have better things to do
river prawn
Yall gonna be doing this for the next 20 hours?
i will track the margin until it exceeds 500
fiery delta
I think that it will keep 350+ difference until the end of voting. Notice that these both moves are both good, playable moves, not the mistakes in the middle-game.
lost cosmos
next move Nf6
river prawn
next move Nf6
yes, we cannot play 3..a6 4.Ba4 b5
lost cosmos
for the first time we're aligned so ah ig you can try and convince people to play that. I'm out of here for the night
river prawn
ill be watching the vote totals
cerulean matrix
I keep getting tagged, so i saud lemme check this out
cerulean matrix
Take us to victory ✌🏽
tawny abyss
yes, we cannot play 3..a6 4.Ba4 b5
I think screwing up the Morphy is going to be less of an issue than screwing up the Berlin
tawny abyss
The comments section is a wasteland
river prawn
tell them to wait to play b5
the fact that there are this many low elo players who don't understand a6 along with a bunch of high elo players that want to play Nf6 and a6 is still winning is a good sign
buoyant blade
Personally I would prefer 3... f5 going into the Jaenisch gambit, but that seems unlikely
fiery delta
Approximately 1000+ more votes for a6.
fiery delta
@lost cosmos I'm sorry, I made a mistake. The Black decides whether we play Open Spanish. After 5. O-O Nxe4. Close Spanish is after 5. O-O Be7.
slow breach
I just shared a post in the game chat predicting an important test we will need to answer as a team on the fourth move. "Will we be able to resist the tempting, but inferior 4...b5?! as a team?" In order to pass this test, I suggested the 3...Nf6 and 3...a6 voters need to unite. It will be quite telling if we're able to resist the "bullet move" reflex of 4...b5, when we'll have a clearer sense of how the voting behavior is developing.
For those interested, sharing the importance of 4...Nf6! after Judit's quite likely 4. Ba4! will be quite helpful.
river prawn
I just shared a post in the game chat predicting an important test we will need ...
Let’s avoid mentioning the Arkhangelsk
I don’t want people getting ideas
Found a bad idea to avoid
4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Nd4? 6.Nxd4 exd4 7.Bxf7+!
buoyant blade
Similar to the Nightingale gambit: 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Na5 6.Bxf7+ however with white having deflected black's e-pawn, the Nd4 line is much better for white than the otherwise unclear Na5 Bxf7
river prawn
Similar to the Nightingale gambit: 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Na5 6.Bxf7+ however with white...
it's just a simple tactic
without the pawn on e5, 7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qd5+ (not possible with the pawn on e5) and 10.Qxa8
8.Qh5+ Ke7 9.Qe5+ Kf7 10.Qd5+ is the same
lost cosmos
Similar to the Nightingale gambit: 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Na5 6.Bxf7+ however with white...
Black is actually doing well with b5 Bb3 Na5 Bxf7+ line. I’m not worried
This is actually my prep. Black is completely fine here
sharp magnet
This is actually my prep. Black is completely fine here
and why would anyone willingly play this
lost cosmos
and why would anyone willingly play this
Line is there just in case a6 b5 and maybe even Na5 happens. Not the end of the world!
sharp magnet
How would 4...Bc5 do here?
after a6?
crude gull
This is actually my prep. Black is completely fine here
I agree we are fine, but do you trust the world to play this?
fiery delta
Nearly 2000 more votes on a6. I'm very curious if people play a strategy based move Nf6 instead of simple tactic b5 in the next move (given Judit Polgar won't do exchange, which is most probable).
sharp magnet
Nearly 2000 more votes on a6. I'm very curious if people play a strategy based m...
what is this simple tactic with b5
fiery delta
what is this simple tactic with b5
We're attacking the Bishop on a4 in one move, limiting his move options. Nf6 is more strategic move, a development of our piece.
sharp magnet
It might
river prawn
No way
sharp magnet
At some point
sharp magnet
We're attacking the Bishop on a4 in one move, limiting his move options. Nf6 is ...
I don't see the tactic
Unless pointless attacks are a tactic
river prawn
We just have to make sure Bc5 doesn’t get played
river prawn
Unless pointless attacks are a tactic
They are for low Elo players
fiery delta
Unless pointless attacks are a tactic
Yes, by b5 we're threatening the Bishop on a4 in one move, which most low-rating players might chose. The may not see a disadvantage of divided pawns.
sharp magnet
They are for low Elo players
We're all low elo ngl
river prawn
b5 isn’t that bad
The issue is you have to play Rb8 or Bb7 at some point
And beginners don’t know that
In the ElDivis game, move 5 was a close vote between 5..b5 and 5..Nxe4. Are we prepared to support the Open Ruy Lopez to stop 5..b5 from winning?
Because 5..Be7 wasn’t even close
sharp magnet
In the ElDivis game, move 5 was a close vote between 5..b5 and 5..Nxe4. Are we p...
Who's ElDivis
river prawn
Who's ElDivis
David Martinez, a Spanish IM. There was a vote chess game against him about a year ago
Far less participants tho
sharp magnet
Oh
fiery delta
b5 isn’t that bad
I understand that "tactic" is a sequence of moves. Maybe I used here this word in wrong context. I meant the immediate threat. b5 for me isn't that bad, but our pawn structure is much worse IMO. If Nf6 will be chosen, it's much better, despite it doesn't give anything in short term. I noticed that in GothamChess there were almost none strategic moves - especially the mistakes in middle-game that won voting instead of solid moves, suggested by the team.
river prawn
The problem is if we play the Open Ruy Lopez we’ll probably play the Riga and get annihilated
river prawn
Whats riga
3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 exd4?!
sharp magnet
Oh
wooden sigil
I understand that "tactic" is a sequence of moves. Maybe I used here this word i...
We are cooked
crude gull
We just have to make sure Bc5 doesn’t get played
Neo-Arkhangelsk is crying in a corner
river prawn
The line relies on 7.Re1 d5 8.Nxd4 Bd6 9.Nxc6 Bxh2+!! but white just plays 10.Kh1!! Qh4! 11.Rxe4!! dxe4 12.Qd8+!! Qxd8 13.Nxd8+ Kxd8 14.Kxh2 and black is cooked
Assuming white plays 14..Be6 15.Be3 and not 15.Nc3?, which loses the bishop after 15..c5!
I have no doubt Judit Polgar would find 15.Be3
lost cosmos
Initiate the archangel with Nf6 b5 Bc5
sharp magnet
Initiate the archangel with Nf6 b5 Bc5
nah Nf6 Be7 b5 0-0 d5
fiery delta
In summary I hope that after good 3. .. a6 choice, people won't vote 4. .. b5, which makes White's Bishop make few moves in the opening, limits its space, but also disables required pawn protection on queenside (creates weaknesses), and makes Bishop point our f7 square from the distance. If we develop Knight 4. .. Nf6, we can replace the e4/e5 pawn at any time, without assistance of the Queen, when White decides to capture Knight on c6 with the Bishop. I would expect just to finish development of minor pieces on kingside, and after that plan to break the center.
sour forum
We just have to make sure Bc5 doesn’t get played
Explain yourself? Bc5 is a very natural development move
Or maybe im not understanding the context behind this
river prawn
Explain yourself? Bc5 is a very natural development move
it's very easy to go wrong from that point
I did find a rare Classical-Arkhangelsk setup
sour forum
After 4. Ba4 then Bc5 then what? I
Do not understand
Ok lets try the most natural moves
river prawn
4.Ba4 Nf6
another problem is if Judit Polgar plays a4 at any point, we're going to vote for bxa4
that's not how to play the Ruy Lopez
anti-positional garbage
sour forum
another problem is if Judit Polgar plays a4 at any point, we're going to vote fo...
We aint seeing forks let alone positional weaknesses
river prawn
in the ElDivis game, white played 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 6.d3!? and black played 6..0-0? and lost the e5 pawn and the game
4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Nf6 people are going to be like "Oh no, 6.Ng5 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Nxf7 and we lose"
but 6.Ng5 d5 7.exd5 Nd4! and black is better
problem is the database has only one game and it's this
https://lichess.org/9yjm0b3m
coral brambleBOT
problem is the database has only one game and it's this
https://lichess.org/9yjm...
crude gull
in the ElDivis game, white played 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 6.d3!? and black played 6....
Tbh that wasn’t the mistake that lost us the game
river prawn
Tbh that wasn’t the mistake that lost us the game
yes it was
crude gull
Because Martinez played a bit inaccurately, allowing us to equalize afterwards
river prawn
you were never equal
river prawn
how tf has no one imported that game to lichess
damn you're right
17..Qe7
i think ElDivis knew we would trade everything off
both 12.Bxd6?! and 14.Re1?! are indicative of that
doesn't matter tho
Judit Polgar won't play like that
river prawn
if we blunder a pawn we are cooked
IMs are nowhere near as strong as GMs
stupid question, what about 4..d6
the problem with Bc5 at any point is c3-d4
there are ways to defend but I don't trust us to find those
I don't trust us to play the Open Ruy Lopez accurately either
lost cosmos
the problem with Bc5 at any point is c3-d4
Just drop the bishop back, ez
river prawn
Just drop the bishop back, ez
you have to play d6 first
also do you really think we could avoid exd4?
fiery delta
60 thousands of players have joined the match. 2100 vote advantage of a6 over Nf6. Third option is d6 with 4000 less votes. This looks very interesting. I understand that you write that 4. .. b5 is normal play. OK. Just wishing, that the voters won't choose threateaning all the time. Do you remember the Knight and Rook threat with pawn (even repeated) in GothamChess match? I don't want such errors to appear again.
I mean c5 and g4 moves in that match.
river prawn
that was different
those were anti-positional moves
if we make a mistake in this game, it won't be a positional mistake
3..a6 ensures that
wraith ravine
the problem with Bc5 at any point is c3-d4
Theory says taking is fine
river prawn
depends on the variation
if you play exd4 and you haven't played d6, then cxd4 Bb6 e5 is crushing
river prawn
yeah but you play Bb4+ not Bb6
what are you talking about
this isn't the Italian
look there are tons of ways to play as black
bright crater
Did majority vote for a6?
river prawn
Did majority vote for a6?
not an outright majority but roughly 37%
roughly 30% for Nf6
bright crater
Ok
river prawn
actually Nf6 dropped to 28%
the move 4 poll on this server is not even close
you know
actually Neo-Arkhangelsk might be best
given that some of the Bf8, Nb8 ideas in the closed Ruy Lopez look goofy
the 1986 world championship lines look fun tho
potent cedar
wtf is that😭
scenic nest
<@&745328830649991179> vroom
slow breach
I voted for 4...Nf6, and against 4...b5?! I shared my thoughts in the game chat - please spread the word 🙂
fiery delta
I voted 4. .. Nf6 as well. 50% for this move so far, I'm glad.
cold badge
We probably should be gunning for 4...Nf6 into the Archangel
tawny abyss
If Nf6 wins, I'll try to show why the 5...b5 line is awful. 5...Bc5 isn't awful but it's not the mainline for a reason (as I had demonstrated in my comment, it actually just allows white the center they want)
river prawn
5..Bc5 won by a fairly large margin in the ElDivis game
crude gull
If Nf6 wins, I'll try to show why the 5...b5 line is awful. 5...Bc5 isn't *awful...
Neither of them is awful
hollow holly
Wondering if we should go sharp with open spanish with Nxe4
Or go Be7
But then do we go 0-0 or d6,
0-0 and white goes for anti marshall
d6 and we play zaistev or breyer
sharp magnet
Be7 is leading 8-0 in the polls
potent cedar
yh Be7 easy winner if 0-0
Im not keen on 5.Qe2, b5 for same reason we dont wanna play b5 now but its not too bad
river prawn
Im not keen on 5.Qe2, b5 for same reason we dont wanna play b5 now but its not t...
I wouldn't worry too much about it
5.Qe2 is almost never played
hollow holly
Qe2 is bad because of the arhangelsk
Queen moves off of d4
Oh Qe2 on move 5
Ah bishops already on e7
river prawn
Ah bishops already on e7
No it isn’t
hollow holly
Wait im thinking 6 Qe2 smh
Yeah then archangelsk is great response
But no one would go Qe2
https://lichess.org/IRuwF6OF#88 though not a perfect game fits my point
coral brambleBOT
https://lichess.org/IRuwF6OF#88 though not a perfect game fits my point
hollow holly
White at no point had a better advantage
I recommend we play marshall with Be7 0-0 instead of Be7 d6 because white’s options i feel are limited
hollow holly
In the marshall lines
Because white really only has a4, and h3 and some weird sideslines
river prawn
https://lichess.org/IRuwF6OF#88 though not a perfect game fits my point
And that’s why I find it highly unlikely that she will play Qe2 on either move 5 or move 6
bruh if white plays a4 at any point we're going to play bxa4 like an idiot
it's a minefield out here
hollow holly
Yeah thats the problem
like the spanish is very positional and theory dense and thats completely destroys majority of us because 900s and 1000s will just f*cking snap take or make some dumb anti positional that collapses the position.
river prawn
But if we try to play tactically with 5..Nxe4 we’ll respond to 6.d4 with 6..exd4? and get annihilated
The Bd6-Bxh2+ line has a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning and also still gives white a winning position
I have basically zero confidence in us
The safe decision is 5..Bc5
We just need to make sure to play 5..Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 and not 7..0-0
coral brambleBOT
Bruh
https://lichess.org/umUswvy8
river prawn
We just need to make sure to play 5..Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 and not 7..0-0
And not play 8.d4 exd4?!
Yeah no matter what we do we’re cooked
Literally every line has some move that a low Elo player would never play
And a bait move that they’ll vote for instead
hollow holly
Yeesh tricky one here
I feel like moller would be disastrous
Because there are tricks like a4 a5
And beginners don’t know how to assess material sacs
sour forum
And beginners don’t know how to assess material sacs
Fr
fiery delta
Literally every line has some move that a low Elo player would never play
If voters will play standard chess principles in opening, it's OK in my opinion. Development, control of the center, and king-safety first. Then piece improvement and no pawn breaktrough too early. This way a chance of mistakes is smaller. 4. .. Nf6 is going to be played. I voted for close Spanish, 5. .. Be7 in the poll, which ends our development on king-side. What next? It may vary. 🙂
river prawn
If voters will play standard chess principles in opening, it's OK in my opinion....
yes, but the lines with 5..Be7 don't use "standard chess principles"
Nb8, for example
Bf8
fiery delta
OK, these positions are from middle-game, where the opening principles may not apply. In this stage we should improve pieces position, and move pawns carefully. If we reach this stage with equal chances, it's success. Later moves voted in such complicated position, are tough to predict. It's not so easy. I would need some advice myself.
Also returning the pieces to their initial position is generally a mistake. These are exceptions. OK. I predict Judit to go short-castling in the 5th move, answered only this poll so far.
river prawn
so we go for a breyer or zaitsev?
I don't know, we can decide that later, personally I recommend a Flohr
the exact separation between variations can blur
heavy ravine
I don't know, we can decide that later, personally I recommend a Flohr
I see
river prawn
but I want to play like Kasparov Karpov 1986 Game 14
heavy ravine
but I want to play like Kasparov Karpov 1986 Game 14
nice
You are admin of world team?
nice!
heavy ravine
there are several admins
oh... who are the others?
river prawn
it means i have permissions to post in #our-turn and #next-move-polls
heavy ravine
it means i have permissions to post in <#1374801212821733497> and <#137480100110...
ooooh. I see
river prawn
oh... who are the others?
Nik, David F, and a bunch of others that quit after the GothamChess game
heavy ravine
Nik, David F, and a bunch of others that quit after the GothamChess game
sooo sad
But how do people become team admins? They are voted in by the others or?
river prawn
However, some of them said they would consider rejoining if we play a sharp Closed variation and maintain control of the game against a bunch of low Elo players who don't read the chat
heavy ravine
However, some of them said they would consider rejoining if we play a sharp Clos...
Yeah. I understand. Most people might not even know that there is a chat🥀
river prawn
But how do people become team admins? They are voted in by the others or?
idk, they put me in charge of polls because the people in charge of polls on this server for the GothamChess game quit in protest over failure to address obvious blunders from being played despite the entire chat explaining why they're blunders
heavy ravine
idk, they put me in charge of polls because the people in charge of polls on thi...
ooooh
Oh no... Now I remember
river prawn
chess.com has promised they'll consider changing the rules for future vote chess games
but are they actually going to do anything?
and how many more farces will it take for them to realize that people demand control over the direction of the game
heavy ravine
but are they actually going to do anything?
idk. The Beta isn't showing anything about these changes on vote chess. But we'll see
river prawn
i don't mean team vote chess games
im talking about public vote chess games
team vote chess is fine because you can control who joins your team
heavy ravine
team vote chess is fine because you can control who joins your team
Yeah.
Maybe we should change how public vote chess works. Maybe the team admins select like 5-10 moves and the rest team votes on them(to avoid horrible blunders and trolling).
river prawn
we don't even need consensus for a move
we just want to avoid situations where the entire chat is explaining why a move is bad and what to play instead and that bad move still wins
heavy ravine
we just want to avoid situations where the entire chat is explaining why a move ...
Ok
river prawn
like if we play 9..Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7?! 12.d5 Bd7? and lose to 13.b3 because the chat advocates for it, I'll be annoyed when we get slowly crushed, but I won't be as enraged as if we play 5..Nxe4 6.d4 exd4?
heavy ravine
like if we play 9..Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7?! 12.d5 Bd7? and lose to 13.b3 becaus...
Ah yes. So how can we prevent things like that from happening
heavy ravine
I mean, I'm not a chesscom employe. But am just curious
heavy ravine
the first or the second
both
river prawn
well the first one is just what happens when you're not a GM
that's when the chat agrees on a move and thinks it's good but it's not
and I'm fine with that from a standpoint of fairness
I mean I'll be annoyed as an individual, but as a team that is fine
the issue is obvious blunders
I'll tell you what you do
if you don't read the chat you can't vote
when people see that the entire chat is spamming to not play an obvious blunder, then that move will lose
yeah some people will still vote for it, but you can convince enough low Elo players to change their vote that no obvious blunders would win
heavy ravine
if you don't read the chat you can't vote
Oh... But won't people just mindlessly scroll through the chat to bypass without reading and then just vote for whatever move they like? I mean yeah forcing people to read the chat might make a few more people mindful but still.
river prawn
i think even if you "mindlessly scroll" you're still going to see the gigantic memes
heavy ravine
i think even if you "mindlessly scroll" you're still going to see the gigantic m...
🥀 so just the unimportant stuff then
river prawn
but that's not the issue here
river prawn
the issue is when the entire chat is explaining why a move is bad
c5? won in the GothamChess game because there were 3 good queen moves that split the vote
we knew people would vote for it
we knew it was bad
and yet it still won despite people spamming to vote against it the entire time
heavy ravine
and yet it still won despite people spamming to vote against it the entire time
Yeah. That's actually really sad. We can never get a good** vs the world** game if changes aren't made
fiery delta
c5? won in the GothamChess game because there were 3 good queen moves that split...
In my opinion type which move is good and then eventual worst option, which should be avoided.
river prawn
you should be able to vote against a move
there should be rank choice voting, or approval voting, or some other method than first-past-the-post
because that's why c5 won
3 good queen moves split the vote
you can see my comments on the game telling people to vote for Qc2
was Qd2 better? I don't know, and I didn't bother calculating because I knew only Qc2 had any chance of beating the obviously bad c5
that's not good chess
when you're no longer calculating which of two good moves is slightly better because you're spending all your effort stopping an obviously bad move from winning
fiery delta
I think that when voting starts, it's difficult to change people minds. In GothamChess match I was promoting the good options. As you can see even now the voting result doesn't change from start, but fortunately these are good moves. I just hope that voters will be reasonable.
river prawn
our goal is to get to a sufficiently complicated position where low elo players have no idea what to do and start voting for all sorts of random garbage
the more divided they are, the less likely they are to influence a vote
you know
im changing my opinion on the Closed Ruy Lopez
we don't need the low Elo players to vote for Nb8/Bf8/other weird moves
we just need them to split their vote 3-5 ways for random other moves
I have no idea if that will work
but it's a lot better than other ideas
fiery delta
For now 1st, 2nd and even 3rd top-voted moves are good which looks promising. The amount of players increase (I just checked that in GothamChess match there were more than 100 000 people joined). Splitting good moves across votes is very bad tendency, but I think that it's not, that 80% of players are so low-level and don't analyze the position or listen to advice.
river prawn
also
I'd like to make my case for 5.Nc3 Bc5
I know there's basically no chance that occurs
but people are voting 5..Be7
the problem with Bc5 in most variations is c3-d4
that's why black usually puts the bishop on e7
you can't play c3-d4 to attack the bishop on c5 if your knight is on c3
it's like 5.Qe2 Bc5
can't play c3-d4 if your queen isn't supporting the d4 square
for this im talking about the Discord poll, not anything on chess.com
ahh nvm
checked the poll results, 5.Nc3 Bc5 is leading now
heavy ravine
checked the poll results, 5.Nc3 Bc5 is leading now
What????
river prawn
our poll
river prawn
5.Nc3 is one of those moves that is almost definitely not going to be played by white
heavy ravine
So some kind of arkhangelsk variation?
heavy ravine
lol. Judit would never play Nc3
river prawn
I know
but there are two reasons why i made the poll
- We should be prepared for everything
- I like making polls
also people like being able to vote in polls
heavy ravine
ok lol
heavy ravine
also people like being able to vote in polls
🤣
river prawn
When I make polls, the last poll will be the most common move
When we leave theory, there will be polls for which moves to prepare for
river prawn
but for now, theory will dictate which moves to expect
river prawn
When I make polls, the last poll will be the most common move
the further you scroll up, the less likely the moves are to occur
also the options for the polls are arranged in decreasing frequency
bruh someone voted for 5.O-O Ng4 💀
heavy ravine
bruh someone voted for 5.O-O Ng4 💀
river prawn
bruh she's not going to fall for a Fishing Pole trap