#next-move-discussion

1 messages · Page 7 of 1

burnt pecan
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He might

burnt pecan
compact gale
# burnt pecan

We already have a poll for this that has closed after 24 hours. Qd3 won that poll. Trying to override a poll very late in the cycle is questionable.. Since this is a world wide game it should not be easy to override. What new information do you bring that shows h4 is considerably better than Qd3? If your poll got the same or greater responses with more votes for h4 and Qd3. We might consider doing that. But I think you have jumped the gun. First you should make your argument and we could "officially" post this or a related 2 move poll in #next-move-polls

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Did you look at our 6 poll results that include the .. Kg7 poll?

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It is barely possible to emergency override a poll if you can convince this team with your argument/evidence. We have done that before, but only once I think.

compact gale
# burnt pecan

We discussed this poll in the world-admins group and decided we should ask you to remove your poll since it is a duplicate of our closed poll without justification. Perhaps you had not known about our poll?

You can still make your case that we should sanction an emergency override. And by we, I mean this team comprising 450 members. Not saying you need 450, but getting 10 or more members to agree with you would be taken seriously.

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Speaking for myself, I think h4 is a very viable alternative move. I'm not completely clear which is "best", but I voted for Qd3.

wanton bobcat
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me too I voted for Qd3 we're js centralizing.

compact gale
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I will also say I was impressed with FutureGrxndmaster's analysis. I wish we had seen it earlier, it might have made a difference in the vote. Qd3 is also a good move, I think, of similar quality to h4.

azure beacon
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I am concerned, if not worried, about Gottam g pawn push, supporting by is double f pawn.
Could someone explain if it is a real threat or not. This would help me to evaluate the purpose of h4 preventing the whole idea

compact gale
compact gale
burnt pecan
# compact gale Speaking for myself, I think h4 is a very viable alternative move. I'm not comp...

Please vote for h4. Top player's are suggesting that we have many tactics if qb6 or qc7 are played. Qd3 isn't very strong. We need to convince people h4 is the way. FutureGrxnmaster from the Chess.com thing agrees. He plotted out all the lines, and it looks like we're better according to him. In a vote that I made on chess.com, h4 was winning 8-5 over qd3. This can actually help us, but us top players , are not convincing others.

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I'm afraid it's too late, qd3 is inevitable, so I need a quick override

compact gale
burnt pecan
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He does. He's some acm, It doesn't show up there. I know for a fact he is.

compact gale
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Do you mean CM - candidate master?

burnt pecan
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no. arena candidate master.

compact gale
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FIDE Titles for the Lower Rating Band
1 Introduction
1.1 FIDE introduces and recognises titles designated for the chess players of the lower rating band. Ordered hierarchically from higher to lower status, these titles are:
1.1.1 Arena Grandmaster (AGM or ag)
1.1.2 Arena International master (AIM or ai)
1.1.3 Arena FIDE master (AFM or af)
1.1.4 Arena Candidate master (ACM or ac)
1.2 FIDE Titles of the lower rating band are designated for players of both genders alike.
1.3 FIDE Titles of the lower rating band can be achieved by playing FIDE rated games in FIDE Online Arena (FOA) playing zone.

image.png
burnt pecan
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Sorry, I think he's an AIM or AGM then

compact gale
burnt pecan
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yea they dont

compact gale
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OK, sorry, we should stay on topic here. If want to continue this we could move to #theworld-general

burnt pecan
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But still, h4 looks super promising. I've analysed it, and it looks the best after kh7.

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Sure

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That would work

tender grove
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lmao arena titles

burnt pecan
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damn your good

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Vote h4 next if kg7

vagrant pelican
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@river prawn what do you think of 16 h4 if 15… Kg7?

river prawn
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No

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Too hard to coordinate

vagrant pelican
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Not sure if you’ve been looking at the analysis on cc team chat

river prawn
river prawn
vagrant pelican
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That’s true. The other thing is — Won’t we get a chance to play h4 later?

river prawn
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Maybe

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But it looks really dumb when black plays Rh8 and g5

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We should just go for something simple like Qd3-Rad1 or Qb3-Rad1

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Play h3 if Kg7-Rh8

burnt pecan
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No we wont

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We need to initiate up a tempo

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Black must play kg7 now to prevent h4

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Because we have an h5 sac

compact gale
burnt pecan
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Sure

compact gale
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Just a line of chess notation would be better for us to see here

burnt pecan
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Sorry, I already put it there

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Basically after qc7 we play h4 and the and the kh7 rh8 idea doesn't work because we can just sac by playing h5

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So if black plays qc7, or qb6 re8(?), we can play h4 the next move. He doesn't have kh7 after that because we can immediately push h5.

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and sac the pawn

compact gale
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I'm thinking that 16 .. Kg7 is an inaccuracy. Better to centralize rooks.

image.png
thorn yarrow
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@burnt pecan So 15 ... Qc7 16 h4 prevents 16 ... Kg7 because of 17 h5! I agree and like 17. h5. However, black is not required to play 16 .. Kg7. There's Rad8, Nb6, even Qf4. Of which none of these moves cause any real concerns. I believe after 15 ... Kg7 16 Qd3 ( or Qb3, Qc2 ...) 16... Rh8 17 Rad1 (or Rac1, b3, a4) 17 ... Qc6 then White may want to move the h pawn to h3 or h4. White can even ignore the threat with say b3. I find the position to be very equal (drawish), with many acceptable candidate moves for both sides.

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I am expecting Levy to play 15 .. Kg7. giving the f-rook access to the h file and 5th rank. IOr other words 15 ... Kg7 allows black's rooks access to the whole back rank and protects the f6 pawn. I do expect black to play b5 at some point and I like Rac1 instead of cb. Hanging pawns or isolani. Either one is a weakness for white. I believe White can withstand any minority attack or kingside attack. There's not enough pieces to launch any serious kingside attack. Looks like we are heading into a drawn endgame. Unless white ( or black) makes a serious blunder. That's my two cents.

nimble drum
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Yeah the first thing I did

river prawn
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Kg7 defends f6 if necessary

burnt pecan
# burnt pecan
poll_question_text

What are you voting for if GothamChess plays 15.. Kg7

victor_answer_votes

1

total_votes

3

barren hatch
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Is gotham going to lose on time?

compact gale
compact gale
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Did anybody see this plan from FutureGrxndmaster in team chat?

image-1.png
vagrant pelican
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It looks like a good plan

compact gale
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At minimum some interesting ideas to consider.

vagrant pelican
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But it also starts with 16 h4 in response to 15… Kg7

river prawn
thorn yarrow
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Yes, yes, and yes. I agree. Nice work. This is the type of position white should strive to obtain, especially the pawn structure. Nice placement for the white knight on e3 via f3-e1-d2-e3 or f3-h2-f1-e3, assuming white has time. The black knight could head for f5 from d7 via b6-c8-d6 or e7-f5. But I have not convinced myself that the white knight still might be best on f3 protecting h4,g5,e5. Notice in the postion provided Black can easily set up an attack on the h4 pawn by doubling rooks on the h file, queen on the d8-h4 diagonal, a g5 pawn push and the black knight on f5 puts a lot of pressure on the h4 pawn. The black queen could also gain access to f5 via d8-a5-f5 of which the white queen may needs access to the b1-f5 diagonal to challenge a black queen on f5. I agree with the pawn structure and king placement, I think the white queen should have the flexibility to easily move to the king side if necessary, so rook placement shouldn't interfere with queen movement. Which it is not the case in the position given ( why is there a white rook on d3? Rd on d1 instead?). I also like that the white rooks have access across the whole 1st rank when the white king is on g2. It helps protect the h4 pawn if black tries to build up pressure on the h file. This position shows the type of kingside attack black can develop. So White needs to be able to maintain the queenside pawn majority to create a passed pawn, if black over commits to kingside attack.

heady plover
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is levy gonna flag?

compact gale
sharp magnet
# compact gale

"each side has 24 hours but the other side might have more idk"

crude gull
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Practically we can’t since SOMEONE will always vote

compact gale
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Schedule

The GothamChess vs. The World match kicks off on September 30.

Each side has 24 hours to make a move.

At times, Levy might take more than 24 hours to make his move, but he won't forfeit on time.

sharp magnet
agile pawn
slow breach
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Hi all! I'm back in action now - looking forward to continuing the match! Hopefully, we'll see a move from Levy soon. 🙂

slow breach
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Thanks to the team sharing the analysis in the game chat as we anticipate Levy's next move. Can someone please catch me up to speed where we're at with the analysis? I'm seeing a number of Qd3 and Qc2 continuations based upon how Levy responds. I think I recommended Qd2 + c4 the last time I checked in. Are we still considering moving the queen to c3 to align with Black's king in the event ...Kg7 was played, or have we discussed other directions?

vagrant pelican
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Against Kg7 immediately, the group has voted for 16 Qd3, which still keeps the option to move the queen to c3.. we haven’t really discussed options for move 17 yet

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Would like to highlight this interesting analysis in the team chat from a couple of days ago… in this analysis, they go 16 h4 in response to 15… Kg7

slow breach
# vagrant pelican

Thanks! I saw the message in the game chat but didn't notice too much commentary about placing the queen on c3 and the long dark squared diagonal, so I wanted to double check here. 🙂

compact gale
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Gotham has played 15 .. Nb6

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We play 16 Qd3

crude gull
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b3 and c5 are leading

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Qc2 third place with quite a big margin

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Our move is on the 4th place

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Imo b3 is better than c5 and we may have to switch

outer lance
slow breach
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Is there any concrete reason Qc2 is a problem or why we preferred Qd3? The queen feels a tad bit loose on d3 which may be concerning some players.

outer lance
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Hope I am proven wrong, but I wrote this in the team chat on chess.com.

" I voted for Qd3, but going by the current vote leaders, b3 looks' the best out of the top two.
As of writing this post, the totals for the top 4 are:
b3 = 250 votes
c5 = 229 votes
Qc2 = 72 votes 
and
Qd3 = 56 "

slow breach
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It's not clear to me why Qd3 is stronger than Qc2, so this might be a tough sell.

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Of course, the pawn moves will gain immediate momentum. c4-c5 feels quite suspicious.

outer lance
slow breach
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Yes, c4-c5 looks quite problematic. If we have to vote for a pawn move, then our arm will be twisted into supporting b3

agile pawn
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oh finally he played (wonder why he didn't lost on time)

slow breach
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I'd rather see Qc2 played at this point, but this might not be a practical choice if this, along with Qd3, will allow c5 to win the vote.

slow breach
agile pawn
slow breach
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I just posted this in the game chat:

We have a bit of a dilemma if c5 runs away with the vote. We do not want to live in that world.

If need be, we can play 16. b3 to avoid 16. c5?? from running away with the vote.
The main question that we want to discuss early is if we can get enough people to vote for the same queen move. If Qc2 and Qd3 splits the vote, these voters will likely be more open to b3 as needed, but we may be splitting the "not c5" vote here.

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As much as I'd rather not suggest a reactionary pawn move (preferring Qc2 personally), it's unclear if a single queen move will unite us here. Intuitively, Qd3 feels "loose" since it is unprotected and officially pins the d4 pawn, so I think that is a harder sell than Qc2.

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This may suggest we need to seriously consider supporting 16. b3 if that is what it takes to prevent 16. c5??

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The double question mark annotation is more about the psychological "bullet move" decision that immediately paints us into a corner. I don't think we lose by force after 16. c5, but it feels quite unnecessary when we can restrict his offside knight on b6 by not advancing the c4 pawn.

outer lance
slow breach
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Good point dameen - let's speak to NOT c5 in the chat early and often here.

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I think we may find ourselves forced to unite around 16. b3 here. My "bullet move" reaction here is 16. Qc2, and I don't think I'd seriously consider 16. Qd3 unless there was some very concrete reason to do so (I don't like leaving the queen loose on d3). I don't see a world where we sell Qd3 over Qc2 (which feels more natural to my eyes), and I don't see Qc2 easily outperforming another queen move + b3 and + c5?? to take over the polls.

wraith ravine
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Yeah I voted b3, though even like Qb3 looks so much better

outer lance
slow breach
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Yeah, my issue is I don't understand why Qd3 makes more sense than Qc2, so I think it will be hard to convince enough people to play this specific move in order to avoid a pawn move.

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I'm going to grab dinner and I'll be back to discuss and vote briefly after that. My sense is we may want to unite around 16. b3 here just to avoid seeing 16. c5 on the board.

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As I just mentioned in the game chat:

Basically, any queen move must defeat all other queen moves, b3, AND c5.

  1. b3 only has to defeat 16. c5 since I lack confidence a single queen move will defeat all other queen moves, 16. b3, and THEN defeat the final "16. c5?? anti-positional" boss.
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Thanks for sharing this game chat compromise @compact gale
"Let's unite on b3, which is a good solid move.

There are other good moves, but c5 must not be allowed to win. "

I do not want to undermine the concerted efforts of the team here contemplating Levy's moves (we all assumed he would play ...Kg7, which caught us off guard), but the writing appears to be on the wall that b3 can keep the game quite reasonable, so we can live in that world. We can then unite around what to do next (we need a single move to unite around otherwise c5 will come roaring back again just like in the Magnus game - vote after vote - until it is finally played).

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I just voted 16. b3. I'll be around tomorrow to discuss our plans moving forward, assuming 16. b3 makes it across the finish line.

compact gale
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Shall we change our "official" group recommendation?

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Any objections to switch to supporting b3?

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I don't think we want to promote Qd3 at this point

tender grove
compact gale
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b3 is ahead - but not by enough to be confident.

tender grove
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8% is plenty

compact gale
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We have seen leads like that fail

tender grove
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well ok but c5 is also very obviously bad

compact gale
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Not to a significant # of new novice players.

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It is obviously bad to experienced players.

vagrant pelican
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What’s the current vote situation?

tender grove
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surely levy has taught them about outposts

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someone has mentioned Nd6 as a possible outpost for us but im not confident that the 600s voting for c5 know how to move pieces backward

outer lance
vagrant pelican
compact gale
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The lead is increasing, and that is good, but that can change

slow breach
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I recommend officially updating the team recommendation to 16. b3 , explaining that although several queen moves are interesting, 16. b3 is the only move that can stop the anti-positional 16. c5

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I BARELY caught the vote update before calling it a night, so others may be "waking up" to this surprise later in the voting period. I think we want to build 16. b3 confidence early and often here.

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"vote update" I mean the alert that Levy made a move, so I jumped into the discussion quickly

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Should have said "move update" but am quite tired - my point is I almost didn't see Levy made a move before disconnecting from the screens for the night, so I imagine others will be caught off guard by the timing of Levy's vote and the incredible c5 surge discussion.

compact gale
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If we can get some sense of whether the group supports that

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to b3 or not to b3, that is the question

slow breach
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Yeah, it's a tough situation. If we don't want to see 16. c5, then 16. b3 is what remains.

compact gale
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b3 is one of the many good choices we had. c5 is among the worse choices we had

slow breach
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Assuming we get 16. b3 across the finish line, then we need to unite around a single, intuitive queen move to try and defeat 17. c5? which might occur. I think Qc2 is already gaining some traction with the votes, so although my intuition may speak to 17. Qd2-c3, and others may mention Qd3-c3, a single, unified queen suggestion may be our only chance to get the queen move across the finish line. Do you think 17. Qc2 will continue to gain attention with the intent of playing 18. Qc3? Of course, Levy might play a number of moves when we may need to carefully consider our candidate moves, but this is a good example where a single attack (Typical Mistake Three) will be a very tempting, anti-candidate move as long as it remains available.

vagrant pelican
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In the original poll, there were 6 votes for Qd3. Now we already have 9 votes to change the recommendation to b3 already
(including from people who originally voted for Qd3) against 1 vote to oppose

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We’re changing the recommendation to 16. b3

inner iron
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Now that we know he's played Kb6, instead of Qc7, I can get behind supporting b3 to protect the c4 pawn and creating a pawn chain a2,b3,c4... I also think that b3 should be supported due to the fact that any queen vote at this point seems to split against other queen moves and gives c5 more of a chance which is what we do not want... That being said, we should remember that changing the vote after the voting has begun is 1) throwing away votes as many people try to vote quickly to get our recommended vote on the board and try to take an early lead. 2) we are attempting to override a closed poll where the majority has already voted on a particular move. The discussion to try to change or persuade people to vote for a better move is much easier when done during the poll when people can change their vote instead of after the recommended votes have already been drawn up and posted on chesscom. We are already having to deal with people in the chesscom chat changing the recommended votes to what they would prefer, and just reposting the discords moves with their own, and when we change our vote, it can look suspicious as well... 3) When we change our vote, it looks like we are just overriding what the majority has already voted on, and though they might not say anything in the chat, I think that some of them can get frustrated by it. (this changing the vote plan has come up numerous times now) I understand we should adapt, but the possibility of the queen split vote existed before the vote started and should have probably been discussed earlier as well. Also, I'm not sure why Qc2 is better than Qd3. looking more natural isn't really a concrete answer and when they ask in the main chat about it, we have to give more definitive reasoning than that.

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I'm all for changing the vote now to 16. b3... I'm just saying that we need to keep all this in mind when changing our vote. We had a number of days to change our vote and there wasn't a lot of discussion other than maybe h4 earlier? I liked the Qd3 move because it kept the potential for the rook sac and then the perp check if Qxg6... I know it is also there with Qc2, but it also allowed for the Q to slide over to the king side and protected c4 as well as d4. Also connected the rooks, etc etc...

vagrant pelican
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If a queen move could win the vote, we would support it but unfortunately, only moves that can win in this round are b3 and c5

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And Coach Dane is right - c5 will be voted in the next move as well. This is completely deja vu Magnus game

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We avoided c5 for a move or two in that game but eventually it was played. We need to be united around a single queen move

outer lance
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b3 is the current vote leader and about 250 votes in front of c5, because of this we should plan our Discord polls around those two moves.

I already wrote this to answer someone on the chess.com team chat, below:

" Correct, he could even play Nc8 on the next turn to eventually re-route it to e7 or possibly d6, if b3 is played by us this turn.
I think it is much more likely that he will play Kg7 or any safe R move, but we should at least consider Nc8 if we are planning to vote in any of Discord polls, too."

So at a minimum against b3 we need a poll for these possible moves by Black:

Kg7, any Rook move along the 8th rank, safe Queen moves that helps Black connect his Rooks', any safe looking pawn moves like a5 or a6, and possibly even Nc8?

Against the unlikely but not impossible c5 winning the vote this turn, then we need a poll against Nd5, Nd7 and Nc8 by Black, at a bare minimum.

Also if c5 wins, then I think Nc4 is possible but extremely unlikely by Black, as this could push the Black N to the rim if we play solidly, and "Knights on the rim are usually dim" - see possible line below, if anyone can't see the likely line to play against Nc4.

... 15.c4 Nb6 16.c5 Nc4 17.Qc1 Qd5 18.b3 Na5 ...

slow breach
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Yes, c4-c5 will continue to call us to "positional shipwreck" (I'm being a bit dramatic but I don't think we want to see this move if we can avoid it). Moving forward we need to do our best to share diagrams and clear explanations as to why c4-c5 is such a commital, anti-positonal move (even IF it is played we should still be able to fight, but this is a good opportunity to try and raise awareness). Less experienced players are going to look for "understandable" stories, including lunging a pawn forward to attack the knight as it is clearly "doing" something. This is not something to condemn, but understand and try to redirect. I just sent another advertisement to the Discord channel and I think we should start directing people to #next-move-discussion specifically to know this is where we are discussing our ideas. This is a GREAT opportunity to learn and grow as a community, and also hopefully help us attract more informed voting practices over time. We will always deal with "bullet moves" by players completely ignoring the chat, but I think the more people see that we're willing to reach out, share ideas as well as adjusting (as is the case with this vote) to the needs of the team, I think we still have positive chances to promote here. 🙂

drifting kiln
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I'm confused. why are we playing b4, can't he take our c pawn?

slow breach
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to defend the c4 pawn

drifting kiln
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Oh lol I misread, thanks.

slow breach
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All good - thanks for contributing to the discussion! 🙂

drifting kiln
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Getting fluent in notation is probably my next step in chess, its hard to read chess books without it hah

slow breach
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We also need to think about tricky lines he might attempt. If we want to consider Qc2, this is fine, but in the unlikely event he plays ...g5 immediately, we need to have a clear plan to handle ...g4, threatening our knight which is the key defender of the d4 pawn. I'm about to call it a night so good to sketch out some general game plan here. Perhaps 17. Qd2 followed by Qc3 should be considered as a "general" plan IF Levy doesn't play 17...g5. The Qd2 "positional story" may speak to those already mentioning the possibility of invading on h6. We can then play Qc3 and keep everything well protected (our pawns on the fourth rank, the queen eyes the long dark squared diagonal on a1-h8, and also monitoring the third rank).

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Just throwing out some ideas here as I put an end to a rather long day. Long story long, it will be nice to think about what our most likely queen path may be to enter the game, and perhaps ideally land on c3. We cannot split the vote with multiple queen moves, so it's important to think about a move that most people can relate to and understand as a "positive" path. We'll need to think far more carefully about specifics, but at least wanted to share this "sketch" before calling it a day. 🙂

outer lance
slow breach
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Qd2 to "attack h6" and then Qc3 to secure the center, eye the long dark squared diagonal, and keep a close eye on the third rank pointing toward the kingside might be a more relatable and understandable narrative than Qc2-c3 as I mentioned as another path. If 17...g5, worst case scenario, as dameen-olive just noted, perhaps h3 is "good enough" even if not ideal.

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If 16. b3 protects c4, then Qc2 may not feel like it is "doing" anything, where 17. Qd2 might be a more "active" feeling move. Anyways, I hope everyone has a great rest of their day and I'll connect tomorrow. These are just very light sketches that I encourage the team to consider and improve upon as we see fit. 🙂

slow breach
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That is why I mention ...g5 as a remote possibility but one we should be ready to face if he surprises us again.

outer lance
# slow breach Agreed, I think ...g5 is quite unlikely, but ...Nb6 feels like he is fishing for...

This is the last I plan to talk about g5 until the move actually occurs, but it would be epic if we could convince the World to play this line

... 16.b3 g5 17.h4 g4 18.Ne5 fxe5 19.Qxg4+ Kh8 20.Rxe5 ...

. 17. h4 wasn't mentioned by me before, but also looks' playable here.
. If we get to 18. Ne5, Black won't fall for the N sac, unless he plays without thinking - aka plays a "bullet move".
. If it gets' this far, I think it would be very hard to convince The World to play this line, we would likely have an easier time going for something like this one below, right?:

... 16.b3 g5 17.h4 g4 18.Nh2 f5 19.g3 ...

compact gale
# inner iron Now that we know he's played Kb6, instead of Qc7, I can get behind supporting b3...

We are changing our move since the voting is going against our recommendation. Although this is closed poll, it doesn't really act like closed poll. The information about what moves are leading is clearly getting out (even through the team chat). Leaders are very hard to stop and stopping them later is harder than stopping them sooner. Althought b3 was not our poll winner, it is a strong move that was good with many of our queen move lines. The news is that a truly bad move (c5) was way too close to the lead. We did take the time to do a quick up/down vote that exceeded the number of votes for Qd3, many of them from Qd3 voters. There were a number of times we had to support a different move than we initially recommeneded in the Magnus game for precisely the same reasoning. Ultimately, it is a judgement call to call for the emergency poll, but I think the decision was sound.

pure laurel
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16Qa4 has 22 votes , so you can see what we are working with

compact gale
inner iron
# compact gale We are changing our move since the voting is going against our recommendation. A...

I do think the change was in the best interest of the team. Although, when I stated closed poll, I was referring to the poll we had taken days ago to vote for our recommended move. Perhaps there should have been more discussion concerning the Nb6 move and our Qd3 response, however, since it seemed unlikely that Levy would play Nb6, there wasn't much discussion about that. I'm not against changing a vote, however, I do think that frequent calls for an emergency poll ends up making it the norm... This was posted right after the vote change...

cthuwu — 19:07
Why we paying b3 now we’ve had like a week and we settled on one move now we’ve changing 🫠

I'm mainly saying that if there are concerns for a vote or something like Qd3 being played as opposed to Qc2, then that should be discussed sooner rather than later. HOPEFULLY, that discussion will take place before the recommended vote is decided rather than after, because by doing it after, we lose valuable votes. If we can prevent a recall of the vote and changing a recommended vote to something else so often, we should. If that means more discussion, then that should happen...

outer lance
outer lance
# outer lance

I think you are onto the correct way of thinking based on his Nb6 move, but at least to me Black playing f5 aiming for Qf6 is unlikely as I think we have plenty of options against it, besides the Q moves mentioned.

. IMO, Nb6 was a sharp / probing move, to see how strong we are playing.
. He could play more sharp moves in the future, to tempt us to play a "one move attack" again.
. I would be mildly surprised if he plays f5, even though it is playable for Black, I can't see him breaking that "pawn tetris block" at this time, since it looks' like a solid place for the K to be placed behind, on g7, soon.
. Nc8 would also be mildly surprising to me, but is still more likely than f5 IMO, since he can re-route it back to some better looking squares latter - Ne7 and Nd6.
. Nc8 is a backwards N move, and it is also moving the same piece twice, these are the main reasons I think it is unlikely here - other than that I can't see anything terrible with Black playing it, since the position looks' pretty calm for both sides, ATM.

jovial magnet
#

is there any analysis on him rerouting the knight to c8 d6 f5?

dusk portal
jovial magnet
#

provoking g4

compact gale
outer lance
#

Vote difference update, for the two leaders:
b3 seems' to be holding around 310-320 votes in front of c5, so we are not clear from it yet.
It was around 310 in front last time I posted a message about it.

. Should we poll the moves we think Black could likely play against b3 soon?
. We can also work on any c5 polls, so we don't get blindsided by assuming b3 will win, but OC the b3 polls should be created first, IMO.

#

Just had another look at some of the recent votes for c5, and there is at least one above 2000 Elo in Rapid, who recently voted for c5 ???

. For context, all of the accounts that I looked at were intermediate or lower, when I checked some of the c5 votes, earlier.

dusk portal
dusk portal
jovial magnet
#

said the 2000 elo player

frail forge
#

Dumb question from a lower-ranked player, but doesn't c5 just let the queen out of jail? The idea of controlling the dark squares with c5 and b4 makes some sense, but it looks like he needs a few turns to get anything going right now.

vagrant pelican
dusk portal
dusk portal
# vagrant pelican Yes. What moves should we focus on by black if 16 b3 wins? Kg7 Qc7 Re8 Is he...

I think Kg7 might have the most promising lines for black? I thought initially a pawn move might be better, though. But thinking about possible pawn moves:

  • f5 then possibly Qf6 seems slow for Black (though I doubt it is totally losing)

  • g5 is apparently met by Re4 though I don't really understand this line

  • c5 leads to takes and I think black shuts himself out of the center by forcing a backwards Knight move which I don't think Levy will like

  • e5 seems bad all around for Black, met by dxe5 which seems better for white with the strong open files (fxe5 or Qxd1 both seem better for white to me?)

And I have no clue about a6 or a5, they seem very passive and unlikely.

I think that definitely means one of these three moves is best, and I think Levy might want Kg7 to get Rh8

outer lance
# vagrant pelican Yes. What moves should we focus on by black if 16 b3 wins? Kg7 Qc7 Re8 Is he...

IMO, probably not, but always safer to have it in a poll and not need it, then the other way around.

I think we should poll these moves to start with: Kg7, Qc7, Re8, any other 7th rank Q move, any other 8th rank R move, and Nc8.
We can always add more, after getting started with these OC.

. The position is really calm looking to me, I think I said something like this earlier.
. Both Black and White look to have plenty of options to play here.
. If I was playing this position by myself, then I like Qd3 against any of the moves mentioned above.

. Since we are part of a group of players with a wide range of skill levels, we also need to consider voting for the types of moves we think are good and that most members' on chess.com would consider playing too - as someone in the team chat said "... for those suggesting Qd3, that move takes too much for the average player, think as a population not as a single player or group of elite players "

. Partial quote for relevance, full quote in the link below:
https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/386700?page=1#comment-121087660

#

The above link appears to be dead, so look for the post made on chess.com team chat by discmogul about an hour ago, if you are interested.

river prawn
#

I've seen enough, b3 will win over c5, but it will be close

#

the chat can maybe influence the vote by 2% at maximum

#

a 6% lead is more than enough for any scenario

compact gale
outer lance
#

About 20 or so minutes ago I just saw a message from a chess.com staff member reminding everyone in the team chat that "...All chess move suggestions must include at least some written analysis explaining your reason for suggesting the move...".

. Partial quote, for relevance.
. Not a problem for our official Discord recommendations, since they always have some sort of reasoning behind them.
. It looks' like they are taking that rule more seriously now that we are out of any book moves, as far as I can see.

compact gale
#

Let's do a Gotham candidates poll after 16 b3 with 6 .. Qc7, Kg7, Re8, Nc8 for sure, I'd like to add g5 (tho I don't think he will play it, b/c I think it is good for us). We could stop there and use Other if someone want to add a move other than those?

river prawn
#

this is the kind of position where you focus on ideas and not individual moves

#

one idea by black is Kg7-Rh8

#

after b3, we should put the queen on c2 and then play Rad1

#

Qe2 is also good

#

just get the queen off d1 and put the a1 rook there

outer lance
river prawn
#

vote b3 to stop c5

#

those are the only two moves with any chance of winning

#

and c5 Nd5 is really bad

compact gale
river prawn
#

correct

vagrant pelican
river prawn
#

where do we put our queen next move

#

because everything is defended enough after b3

compact gale
#

I am kind of liking getting our queen to e3 eventually

river prawn
#

i think c2 is a good choice

outer lance
# river prawn vote b3 to stop c5

Yes, I voted fairly early for Qd3 - within the first 5-20 minutes.
But I started promoting b3, once I saw it running away from the rest, to beat c5.

I was talking about next turn, if b3 wins here.

. Any safe developing Q move should be good for us, after b3 here.
. Will vote for and promote for whatever move wins our discord poll, or our backup poll if needed.

tender grove
river prawn
#

Qc2 next move is fine because we don't have to worry about b5 because the knight blocks the pawn after b3 Qc7 Qc2 c5 dxc5 Qxc5 Rad1

river prawn
tender grove
#

a5 is much weaker im fine with that

river prawn
#

once the knight moves

tender grove
#

too slow

#

plus we can play b4 if ur so worried about it

river prawn
tender grove
#

once the knight moves obviously

river prawn
#

i think we should trade both pairs of rooks

#

once the d-file opens

#

simplify the position for the low elo players

vagrant pelican
outer lance
tender grove
#

seems like an overreaction to a6

#

a6 does nothing I don’t understand that move

compact gale
tender grove
#

can’t wait for him to play Rh8 before Kg7

#

any order fr

tender grove
vagrant pelican
compact gale
#

I think with us, Q to e3 (via d2 or d3), h4, Rad1, Kg2 and perhaps g4!?

tender grove
#

idk where our queen belongs, maybe on c3 maybe on b1 after a4 maybe on e4 for fun maybe on b4

compact gale
#

Qe3 suppresses both c5 and e5 and watches g5

tender grove
#

are we planning to break through somewhere or are we fine with just waiting

outer lance
compact gale
#

Not just waiting, but improving our position each move. Some emphasis on the king side in lines I am playing with.

vagrant pelican
compact gale
vagrant pelican
compact gale
tender grove
#

basic improving moves get us about here (im not sure about Qc7 but idk what else black is playing), how would we continue

image0.jpg
#

our knight feels awkward

#

our queen is staring at nothing

compact gale
tender grove
#

ok that’s just asking to lose

compact gale
#

I am not seeing that, maybe we should go concrete line?

tender grove
#

you don’t need a concrete line, why are we opening up our king for no reason

#

I was advocating for ignoring his kingside initiative but that’s only fine if we don’t throw pawns forward for no reason

compact gale
#

Those pawns hold off Rh5 and Nf5 and we have access to the h-file with our rooks too after Kg2

#

The reason is to control space on the king side.

river prawn
#

we play b3, Qc2, Rad1, keep it simple

#

don't try something weird

#

Qe2 also works

tender grove
#

hmm surprisingly annoying to refute because levy wasted a turn playing Nb6

#

still I trust my principles over my quick calculation in this kind of endgame

compact gale
river prawn
#

I was hoping the low Elo players would leave like with Magnus Carlsen

#

But that doesn’t appear to be happening

compact gale
#

They didn't leave, but they did seem to give greater (but still limited) respect to the stronger players.

compact gale
#

16 c5 is staying close. (35% vs 29%, or 363 votes)

#

After 16 b3 Kg7, what do we play?
After 16 b3 Qc7, what do we play?
After 16 b3 Nc8, what do we play?
After 16 b3 Re8, what do we play?

#

Qc2, Qd2, Qe2, h4. Other?

tender grove
#

Qd2 is probably the most flexible

compact gale
#

Qd2 threatens Qh6 practically forcing Kg7

#

allows us to choose c3 or e3 for the queen

tender grove
#

f4 seems meh but is worth considering (if he hasn’t already played Qc7)

compact gale
#

Can't play that on move 17

#

But can play Qd2

tender grove
#

I mean like …Nc8 Qd2 Kg7 Qf4 for example

#

Nc8 seems really slow to me so doubt he plays it but worth thinking about

compact gale
#

5 polls are up for move 17. Let us know if we should add another poll. Also, dont be shy about using Other if we didn't list your !! move

tender grove
#

im not advocating for it but Rc1 is interesting against Qc7

compact gale
#

late for me, gn!

tender grove
#

idk I just like giving us something obvious to play for, a d5 break seems like a reasonable candidate

#

some Rad8 a4 could be cool (though there could be annoying stuff on the d file idk)

slow breach
# outer lance Looks good. I plan to vote for Qd3 in most to all of the polls, unless people co...

Hi all! It looks like 16. b3 is doing well. I think an important lesson we learned from this vote is that we will need to have a very clear narrative (positional story) to share with the team, and we can only unite around a single, unified queen move to have a chance against c5?? which will basically be a "premove" for a certain percentage of the vote. My sense is Qd3 will feel artificial as the queen pins itself to the d4 pawn. We could try to sell Qc2 to leave the d-file and prepare to put a rook on that file - that seems fairly clear. Qd2 may also be a clear move to sell as it eyes the h6 square for occupation and also connects the rooks. We could then consider placing the queen on c3 under the assumption Levy plays ...Kg7.

#

Basically, we've reached a very critical point, just like in the Magnus game, where we will always have two moves to consider until proven otherwise:

  1. Not c5
  2. Uniting around a move that is most likely to beat c5 in the polls.

Hopefully, over time we'll gain enough interest to read the chat and participate in the discussion process. Please keep communicating in the game chat and in addition to the Discord link, I suggest spelling out the "next-move-discussion" location where we can welcome them to join the discussion.

river prawn
slow breach
#

So, I'd like us to consider which move we can share and explain to the team in such a way that it has the best chance to defeat c5. There are several queen moves that can easily split the vote, so which move can possibly unite the team? I think Qc2 + Rad1 is a healthy plan. We can mention Qc2 as a way to keep the queen out of the d-file danger, put pressure on the g6 pawn and more importantly clear the d1 square for the rook. "Let the queen chill on c2 away from the d-file drama and prepare to complete development with Rad1" might be one idea.

slow breach
river prawn
#

i support Qc2 because it had the most votes this time besides b3 or c5

#

It will be the easiest to convince people to play

#

Also playing Qc2 will help ensure Rad1 will be played

slow breach
# river prawn It will be the easiest to convince people to play

I like that idea. We're going to really need to consistently share visual explanations of why we are choosing this path. Qd2 may gain quite a bit of natural traction because it "attacks" the h6 square, so in order to get everyone on the same page we need to create a very early narrative campaign. Once the team is comfortable, I will start sharing some thoughts in the chat before this vote crosses the finish line

river prawn
#

I mean Qd2 is okay

slow breach
#

I think Qc2 + Rad1 will give a very clear visual as to why we're moving the queen to c2 and not d2.

river prawn
#

anything but c5

#

and hope black goes for the c5 pawn break

#

then Qc2 makes sense

slow breach
#

Several reasonable moves here, but all but one will (hopefully) lose to c5.

river prawn
#

same with the next move

#

this is survival

slow breach
#

Which queen move can defeat c5? That is our critical question. Hopefully my fears about the "c5 shadow" are not as real as in the Magnus game, but the single move pawn attack is a very tempting move as it clearly "does" something as we begin to look at more subtle positional play.

river prawn
#

I think it will be less tempting now that it's defended

#

but even still

#

I think Qc2 has the best chance of winning

#

Qc2 followed by Rad1

slow breach
#

Yeah, let's hope so - although the c7 pawn was in zero danger and we had to continue to struggle to outvote c7-c5 in the Magnus game for several moves in a row...until it was played 🙁

river prawn
#

that was because it attacked the queen

#

and this time it attacks the knight

#

if we play c5, im quitting

#

because after c5 Nd5 we have literally no play

slow breach
#

Qc2 + Rad1 sounds like a clear, relatable positional story we can share. Let's see what others think and then we can start adding comments early and often in the game chat.

river prawn
#

like we're not losing material, but we're cooked

#

I don't support Qc2 because of its idea, I support it because it had the most moves this time

slow breach
#

It's important that even if we play c5 this is far from the end of the world. Nd2-e4 or c4 could be a possible idea in the long run, eyeing the weak d6 square. Far from ideal, but also far from over.

#

That being said, I'd like to do everything possible to avoid it 🙂

river prawn
#

and that was even without a knight on b6

slow breach
# river prawn and that was even without a knight on b6

Indeed, they had dynamic reasons to commit to this structure that I haven't fully investigated to properly understand, but in this case we're simply attacking a knight for a single move, permanently weakening a key central d5 square, with no follow up to offer. Of course, if the wave of c5 votes were also coupled with a crystal clear explanation as to why we're playing that move with very clear, convincing follow up moves in mind, I'd be all ears. I have yet to hear any clear justification regarding this path from the c5 enthusiasts. That being said, this is a good point that c5 is by no means the end of the world positionally, although the decision to make this more seems entirely independent of team chat and consideration, which is what makes it so concerning.

compact gale
compact gale
river prawn
slow breach
# compact gale The idea behind Qd2 is to get our queen to e3 where the queen has influence on d...

Yes, Qd2 also makes sense. Qe3 feels a bit less obvious to me, especially if he plays ...Kg7, when we might consider Qc3 to align with the king on the long dark squared diagonal. I think it's important, whatever we may choose, is to have a very clear, consistent narrative here with the next queen move. I shared an initial example of Qc2 + Rad1 in the chat. We can definitely make a case of Qd2 as well, but we'll need to get on the same page quickly as a team to share a single queen move with a very clear, accessible, and relatable positional story to share in the game chat.

compact gale
#

Qe3 goes well with h4 to suppress king side pawn advances from Gotham.

slow breach
# compact gale Qe3 goes well with h4 to suppress king side pawn advances from Gotham.

Definitely an interesting idea as well! We have no shortage of queen moves to consider - which path will we choose as a "champion" to face the bullet move c5 on the next turn? I do like the simplicity of Qc2 + Rad1 as a clear narrative to share (completes development, supports the center), but happy to explore other options. I think the main point is committing to one reasonable queen move that we can easily explain and start sharing this plan in the game chat. Call me haunted by the Carlsen match experience, but I think c5 will continue to be a formidable presence for several moves to come.

dusk portal
#

In any line is h4 not a viable move (besides g5*)?

#

Also if g5 someone said Re4, can someone explain what that does for white? What would be the continunation and why isn't f5 just favorable for black? Is it because the king is weak?

outer lance
outer lance
# dusk portal Also if g5 someone said Re4, can someone explain what that does for white? What ...

We threaten a strong attack, defend against g4 from kicking our N, lots' of ways for us to be up a pawn after all the potential trades, and pushing pawns in front of the K can often reduce its' safety, see one line below:

... 16.b3 g5 17.Re4 Kg7 18.Rg4 Nc8 19.h4 Ne7 20.hxg5 f5 21.Rh4 Rh8 22.Rxh8 Qxh8 23.Qe2 Ng6 24.d5 cxd5 25.cxd5 e5 26.Nxe5 ...

. IMO f5 is a lot more likely to be played than g5, but still doesn't seem like the best move to me either.

dusk portal
#

h4 is such a gangster move lol

#

that's a fun line

dusk portal
#

Feels kind of pointless to do Kg7 at all then, right?

compact gale
#

It is initial recommendation time since only 73 minutes until our time expires at 10:11 PM UTC.

If 16 b3 Qc7, we play Qc2
If 16 b3 Kg7, we play Qc2 * leading by one vote
If 16 b3 Nc8, we play Qc2
If 16 b3 Re8, we play Qd2 * leading by two votes
If 16 b3 g5, we play Re4

outer lance
# dusk portal But after 18. Rg4 why does black play Nc8? Is rerouting the knight really better...

Here is one of probably many lines starting with the Kg7 - Rh8 - no Nc8 at least for a while - idea:

... 16.b3 g5 17.Re4 Kg7 18.Rg4 Rh8 19.h4 Rh5 20.Qd2 Qh8 21.Qf4 Qb8 22.hxg5 f5 23.Qxb8 Rxb8 24.Rh4 Rxh4 25.Nxh4 ...

. We should be up at least a pawn after all the moves, like in the other 16. b3 g5 line mentioned.

. This is fun for me, but we should be focusing on discussing the much more likely moves to be played by Black, which are:
Qc7, Kg7, Nc8, Re8, R-8, Q-7, and even f5.

. R-8 and Q-7 is not real chess notation as far as I know, so I meant all other playable moves not mentioned, along those ranks.

. Even though there was no poll for it last time I checked, I would be happy to play any of these below on move 17. against 16. b3 f5:

Qc2, Qd2, Qe2, or h4

compact gale
#

Nobody brought up looking at f5, we can start to look at that now, but first I want to get our our initial recommendationss above. I'll share my first pass at that shortly to get reviews/improvements.

#

First pass of our move 17 recommendations:

Initial Recommendations for our Move 17 responses to GothamChess's expected replies to 16 b3 from discussion and polling on Chess.com's Official discussion forum:

If GothamChess plays 16 .. Qc7 or .. Kg7 or .. Nc8, we play 17 Qc2 connecting our rooks, allowing our queen rook to centralize, also threatening a perpetual check after 18 Rxe6 fxe6 19 Qxg6+ (unless Kg7 was played)

If GothamChess plays 16 .. Re8, we play 17 Qd2 connecting our rooks, allowing our queen rook to centralize, as well as threatening Qh6.

If GothamChess plays 16 .. g5, we play 17 Re4 to stop the g-pawn from advancing further and counter-attacking with our rook and h pawn.

You can join the Official Chess.com discussion forum to help discuss and analyze the game, vote in polls to select the best moves for The World Team, and promote them in the GothamChess game team chat! Link: https://go.chess.com/PlayGothamDiscord

outer lance
compact gale
#

After the initial recommendations are published, we can continue to discuss, vote in polls that are still open, create new polls.

#

45 minutes until our turn ends. I will publish in 10 minutes or so if no changes are suggested.

outer lance
compact gale
#

Can always update it.

#

Posting now

#

I should add a warning against 17 c5

dusk portal
# compact gale Nobody brought up looking at f5, we can start to look at that now, but first I w...

I've been thinking about f5, I think h4 is the logical response.

For me, I feel like 16... f5 17. h4 Qf6 18. Qd2 (same idea as the other possible moves, but it comes later)

then I think Black could play Rae8 or Rad8, since Kg7 Rh8 is still an idea black has?

I don't think the Queen necessairily belongs on f6 for black, but if black considers re-routing the knight, then the Queen heavily supports a pawn break, especially with a Rook ont he semi-open file.

#

Like others have said, it feels slow for black and passive, also creating intuitive counter-play for the world team

compact gale
river prawn
# compact gale

Re8 is different than other moves because it commits to not playing Kg7-Rh8
However, we should still go for 16..Re8 17.Qc2 for consistency

compact gale
#

I will say that I am not a fan of universal/default moves. We are giving clear advice for each Gotham response.

#

I don't see it as a problem that we give different advice for different positions

outer lance
compact gale
#

Move 17 recommendations posted after archiving

outer lance
#

Are we happy to also promote Qd2 against all other R moves not mentioned and Qc2 against Qd7 or Qe7 ?

If not, we may need a quick 8- hours or shorter poll for those moves?

tender grove
#

other rook moves would be pretty silly

#

Qe7 might be worth thinking about but idk why he would walk into our rook’s vision

#

*obviously the point would be heading to the queenside

compact gale
#

We can post in progress results for polls, but do need polls for recommendations. We haven't polled for warnings, but probably should.

#

I think 24 hours is fine. 8 hours is too short for closing a poll that is world wide.

spring forge
#

Would Ne5 be an option after f5?

night spindle
#

That seems good but I don't know what happens after f6 maybe?

#

Wait I'm dumb that hangs g6

compact gale
# compact gale

The Qc2 reasoning is incorrect. Thanks to Happy_to_be_2000 who said

18 Rxe6 doesn't work at all after 16...Qc7 because the queen could just block on g7 when we play 19 Qxg6+ (i.e., 16...Qc7 17 Qc2 Rad8 18 Rxe6?? fxe6 19 Qxg6+ Qg7).

#

<@&745328830649991179>

compact gale
#

The 16 b3 f5 poll is tied between Qc2 (4) and h4 (4). Don't care has (5) votes

#

Let's break this tie!

compact gale
#

@spring forge What is your Other move against 16 .. f5?

compact gale
vagrant pelican
#

What could be a line after 16.. f5 17 h4?

spring forge
vagrant pelican
spring forge
#

Sure can 🙂

vagrant pelican
# spring forge Sure can 🙂

Also. Join The World Team for full access to all the GothamChess channels by going to #info-vs-theworld, scrolling to the section on joining and tapping the !! emoji with over 400 count. Now you are on the World Team too.

spring forge
#

I like Ne5 as it restricts the Black Queen’s movements, frees-up f3, gives us more attacking options together with Rook and Queen, while it is flexible enough to move to the Queenside with d3 and c5 if needed. Just like Knights in the centre 🙂

spring forge
dusk portal
# vagrant pelican What could be a line after 16.. f5 17 h4?

This is my idea. I think it's safe for black, but unlikely just because of how odd it is lol

16.. f5
17 h4 Qf6!?
18 Qd2 Rae8 (though black could play Rfe8, Rad8 or possibly even Kg7)
19 Rad1 (battery, activate Rook) Kg7

Since the queen wants to move to the a-file and attack the unprotected pawn, black can't put the Knight on d7 yet, which is where I think blacks wants it in this line to look at a pawn break on e5. Black's move order might be approached differently to secure the a-pawn first.

16.. f5
18 h4 Qf6
18 Qd2 Kg7
19 Qa5 Rfd8 (attacks unprotected rook
20 Rad1 Nc8?

but in this line I wonder where Black's a-file rook wants to land.

The worry for black in all these lines seems to be allowing the infiltration of Qa5, threatening the a-pawn and forcing a backwards Knight movement to hold everything together. I don't think black is losing, but the position isn't comfy and this probably won't happen... but I think black has very fun ideas with the Queen on f6

compact gale
tender grove
#

<@&745328830649991179> another fool got hacked

compact gale
#

h4 now leads Qc2 in the 16 b3 f5 poll 8 to 5.

#

Time to update our recommendations with that I think

slow breach
#

Hi all! Just checking in for the day! I see we have a number of Qc2 recommendations, and once Qd2 (after ...Re8). Did we find a concrete line where Qd2 was required over Qc2?

compact gale
#

Hmm, it was preferred against 16 .. Re8.

slow breach
# compact gale Hmm, it was preferred against 16 .. Re8.

Ok, thanks. I haven't checked any analysis which is why I wanted to make sure. I just wanted to get on the same page in the event a move like 16...Re8 is played and we have a surge of c5 enthusiasm again. Qd2 + Qc2 will likely lose to c5, so just wanted to make sure there wasn't a concrete reason we selected Qd2 in that specific example.

#

I should clarify Qc2 + Qd2 will likely lose to c5 IF there is a split vote between these two reasonable queen moves, but one queen move selected as a "champion" against c5 should have a decent chance. 🙂

compact gale
#

I have been wanting to discuss this with you. We have a single recommendation for each move by Levy we anticipate. They are different positions. Re8 goes away from h8 and bolsters e6. So Qd2 eyes the dark squares such as g5 and h6 and Qc2 does not. It still connects our rooks, allows Rad1, and works well with h4 suppressing king side advances by Levy.

#

I would love to hear from other 16 .. Re8 17 Qd2 poll voters on this.

#

Also, our queen can go to either c3 or e3 next.

#

Also I note that h4 is leading our 16 b3 f5 poll

slow breach
#

Thanks, David! I really appreciate you organizing these polls and sharing the results. I like your explanations behind Qd2 and I think it makes good sense (I also previously suggested a Qd2-c3 plan in relation to c4 and Black playing ...Kg7). I definitely see clear positives to playing Qd2, and Qc2 also feels quite reasonable. It seems a majority of our votes support Qc2 in almost all other positions (you mentioned ...Re8 and ...f5 as possible exceptions). With this in mind, I'd like to share some comments in the game chat that unless there is a really concrete reason, one story we can build as a team is Qc2 + Rad1 against most of Levy's reasonable moves.

Happy to support Qd2 vs Re8 of course, but if there is a surge of c5 voting enthusiasm, I just ask that we wait and see how the team behaves initially before voting. If a majority of our recommendations revolve around Qc2, and Qc2 received the most support regarding candidate queen moves next turn, we may find ourselves needing to rely on that Qc2 momentum if c5 continues to run wild. My fear is if we quickly vote for Qd2 against Re8, we might find ourselves splitting the queen vote at a very critical moment. If there's early enthusiasm for Qd2 with the reasons you mentioned, then it makes sense to me to push that forward as well.

#

I want to try and get more people on board in the game chat during our "off time," especially as I imagine Levy might make another "midnight" vote when I will be waking up perhaps after the critical moment of the vote has occurred.

compact gale
#

Have you seen our current recommendations?

#

Also posted last night on team chat

slow breach
#

I see the two Qc2 moves , Qd2, and then the concrete moment after ...g5 which is what I based my commentary upon here.

compact gale
#

These recommendations are not final and can be updated. But we are now at the point where most of our polls have closed. So changing those requires an override poll.

#

Yesterday, we had an emergency override poll to support b3 over Qd3.

slow breach
#

I think the team's Qc2 vs ...Kg7, ...Qc7, and ...Kc8 grouped together in one vote may prove quite relevant here.

compact gale
#

So 3 of 5 recommendations are for Qc2

slow breach
#

I don't think he'll lash out with ...f5 or ...g5, but it is possible and we need to be ready for it.

slow breach
# compact gale So 3 of 5 recommendations are for Qc2

Absolutely, and 5/5 recommendations are not c5, then whatever move we favor comes next (if I understand our team consensus properly here). We may want to add language boldly emphaziing our "anti-candidate move" of NOT c5 each move to explain why this move is problematic.

compact gale
#

We don't expect him to play those, but we weren't really expecting Nb6 either.

slow breach
compact gale
#

Yes, that is already in our move 17 recommendations at the top in bold red.

slow breach
#

I'm just saying that if Levy makes another classic "midnight" vote, I will not be able to join the critical moment of the voting process. Just wanted to clarify that with that thinking, I may share a basic narrative in the game chat of what we might try to focus on against Levy's most likely moves Qc2 vs ...Kg7 and ...Qc7.

#

It feels like the people constantly posting "consider playing this, NOT that" (with explanations of course), has created some postiive impact - not least of which can be credited to the Discord team's continual involvement in consistently and clearly sharing encouragement and positive direction with move explanation. If the midnight vote occurs and a wave of c5 enthusiasm resurfaces, we may need "all memes on deck" and anything else we can use to advertise a "champion" vs c5 . In that scenario, I will likely just share Qc2 is one reasonable move we have supported in the past and should consider again here to not split the vote. If he plays something other than ...Kg7, ...Qc7, or ...Nc8, other moves should also be considered assuming there isn't a wave of c5 enthusiasm that puts us in the same voting scenario like last move.

compact gale
compact gale
#

Also, not sure you are aware of the effect of archiving after our turn ends and before we can post to the new empty team chat.

#

We don't have multiple recommendations for the same move by Levy. So splitting is not something we do.

#

Your messaging and emphasis sounds good for the 3 moves and we can chime in on team chat.

#

Our recommendations are reduced to one after Levy moves and our turn begins. As our turn is in its last hour or so, we release our recommendations against the next potential moves by Levy.

slow breach
# compact gale So, to be clear, do you consider having a different queen move for one of his p...

My main idea is that whenever possible, if we can anticipate a single, reasonable move that we can all support in advance against most of Levy's moves, this will help us share a more clear message. So, for example, if Qc2 is a reasonable move we all can support against almost all of Levy's moves (perhaps ...g5 being an exception), this allows us to share a clear, consistent narrative with the team before Levy makes a move. This way, we can arm people to get ready to unite around a single move in advance unless something peculiar occurs.

#

My concern is that if Qc2, for example, is generally a reasonable move we can support after most of Levy's replies, if we push Qd2 for a single move (say, ...Re8), we will likely have people splitting their votes between Qc2 and Qd2 (after ...Re8), giving c5 a good chance of winning based upon a "split" queen vote.

#

If there's a reason we need to play another move, like after ...g5, then I think it makes perfect sense to strongly push for a concrete choice. If we find Qc2 and Qd2 to both be fairly similar, reasonable moves, the more often we can suggest the same queen move with explanation the better. I think there's a good chance he'll play something like ...Kg7 or ...Qc7 and we can play Qc2. I think Qc2 is a fairly good move if we are surprised - for example, if he plays ...a5, suggesting the possibility of ...a4, we might find ourselves in a situation where c5 and a4 suddenly become popular choices. I think we can likely ignore ...a5 and play Qc2 in any case, but if ...a5 is a midnight vote, we might find ourselves ill-prepared to influence the vote later in the decision-making process.

#

So, long story long, I'm suggesting we advocate now in the game chat why a move like Qc2 is being recommended most often by the team, and that if we find ourselves in a "split vote" decision, we don't want one queen move to weigh down the other. If a surge of c5 enthusiasm takes over, our only chance will be to unite around a single, reasonable move. Qc2 received the most votes in the last move vote regarding queen moves, so it's just something to be aware of if we face a similar situation.

slow breach
#

I just shared a game chat message supporting Qc2 as the "default" champion against the likely surge of c5 votes on the next move. I also mentioned the Discord team discussion will likely reveal some exceptions, especially ...g5. If someone wants to add a note sharing these examples, especially helping explain why Re4 is our choice agianst ...g5, that could be really helpful. 🙂

scenic nest
compact gale
#

@slow breach like this ^^^? Or did you have something else in mind?

slow breach
#

We're on the move - it's Qc2 time ! 🙂

compact gale
# scenic nest how to get the role

On the page #info-vs-theworld there is a section about joining the team. In that section there is a !! emoji with a count over 450. Tap on it to raise the count. That will add the role so you get notifications for that role.

scenic nest
#

done

#

thanks sir :D

vagrant pelican
#

c5 is leading. Lets beat it

river prawn
#

Oh god they’re really going to play c5

#

We’re approaching the margin where it won’t be beaten

tender grove
#

how did Qc2 win the poll

#

Qd2 is developing with more purpose

river prawn
#

Qc2 had more external support

#

I voted for Qc2 because I knew it had a better chance of winning than Qd2

#

And that’s exactly what’s happening

#

The goal is to beat the obviously bad c5

slow breach
#

Yes, we predicted that c5 will continue to haunt us, just like the Magnus game. Keeping this in mind, we need to do our best to identify a single, unifying move whenever possible, as well as preparing concrete moves that are required if one of Levy's moves discourages our "unity" move.

compact gale
#

c5 leading Qc2 by 14 votes 2%

scenic nest
#

where to vote

slow breach
#

I just added several comments in the game chat encouraging Qc2. If others have time to keep communicating the importance of Qc2 vs NOT c5, that will be greatly appreciated as I won't be able to check the pages for a while as I work on other tasks.

river prawn
tender grove
#

so are we doing this or pushing for Rc1/Nd2 after Nd5

image.png
river prawn
#

You can’t convince low Elo c5 players to change their mind

#

But we can convince Qd2 and Qd3 players

#

And there are plenty of votes for those moves

#

So tell people to vote tactically

compact gale
compact gale
river prawn
#

Okay, if Qc2 wins, next move we play Rad1

slow breach
river prawn
#

We need to include that in the memes

#

And we need to unite behind Rad1 next move, because c5 will still be popular

slow breach
river prawn
#

And I know Rad1 will have a lot of support

slow breach
#

Yes, hopefully this clarifies my somewhat unclear messaging from this morning. Basically every move that has c5 attacking a knight (just like in the Magnus game), this will have a profound "bullet move" surge of support. If we get Qc2 over the finish line, we need to support a single, unifying move like Rad1 unless there is some specific, concrete reason we need to consider another move (like we mentioned about the possible ...g5 move).

#

Worst case scenario, if c5 wins, we are still doing OK and shouldn't panic. Just to keep this in mind so we don't allow c5 to deflate us - we're still doing FINE. That being said, let's do everything we can to avoid this possibility and get Qc2 across the finish line. 🙂

river prawn
#

It’s going to be a lot easier to convince Qd2 and Qd3 voters than c5 voters

slow breach
#

Yes, if we survive this vote, the Qd2 and Qd3 voters will hopefully see the importance of unifying around a "NOT c5" narrative, therefore we can only have one "champion" move to challenge the c5 bullet move.

compact gale
#

Down by 27 votes 1%

slow breach
#

We'll need to reflect this in our internal polling

slow breach
river prawn
#

Next move is Rad1, simple and strong, a good anti-c5 move

slow breach
#

Good. Let's also sketch a backup plan if c5 wins. We're still doing fine. Can we play Nd2, eyeing e4 and c4 to gain a grip on the dark squares?

river prawn
#

I’d play Qd2, responding to b6 with b4

#

And a5 with a3

slow breach
# river prawn And a5 with a3

Sounds like a simple candidate move to keep in mind - just wanted to bookmark a backup plan as there is no need to hand Levy the game because c5 crossed the finish line. Our position was significantly worse against Magnus after c5, and that somewhat "sobered up" the vote after that.

river prawn
#

That didn’t sober us up

slow breach
#

In any case, no need to derail our 17. Qc2 energy, just wanted to keep it in the back of our mind not to collapse if c5 is played.

river prawn
#

We need memes for Qd2 and Qd3 supporters

#

Something to convince them to play Qc2 to stop c5

slow breach
#

Love the "attention queen movers" discussion here - let's zero in on that angle.

#

There will continue to be several people joining the vote and will be thinking about moving the queen - if we can direct a majority of them to Qc2, we should have a decent chance of surviving this roller coaster vote. 🙂

compact gale
#

The lead is narrowing, keep up the pressure!

#

we are -14

dim girder
#

So how many votes exactly do Qd2, Qc2, and c5 have? I want to vote for Qd2 if possible.

compact gale
#

Don't do that. All queen moves are losing to c5 right now with Qc2 by far the closest to overcoming c5

dim girder
#

oh, ok, that is bad 🙁

compact gale
#

Qc2 is only 10 votes away from the lead. Qd2 is back 321 votes

slow breach
compact gale
#

-4 !!

river prawn
#

We need memes targeting Qd2, Qd3, and Qe2 supporters

#

Qc2 has taken the lead

#

725 to 721

compact gale
#

!!!!

slow breach
#

Keep up the positive energy! This is going to be a long day. I have been on here longer than I anticipated - very excited to join the team effort here!!! 🙂

dim girder
#

So Qc2 is already leading by 10 votes over c5, hopefully it holds.

slow breach
compact gale
#

c5 up by 7

#

This is not over

#

807 votes for each = tie

#

Qc2 is +4

river prawn
#

814-810

#

This will go on for a while

#

Next move we play Rad1 since I know a lot of people will vote for it

#

We’ll know early which move has the best chance of beating c5

#

If it ends up being Rac1, then that’s what we support

tender grove
#

Rac1 would be violently disgusting even for a 600

compact gale
#

Against 17 c5 Nd5, I believe it is too early to play 18 Nd2. We have bigger problems.

river prawn
#

Okay, let’s assume we do play 17.Qc2 and then 18.Rad1, what do we unite behind to stop 19,c5

dim girder
#

I hope we’ll move his knight after a few moves, so there’s no c5 anymore and we can vote for what we see as the best move, instead of what just has a chance to beat c5.

river prawn
#

Because I don’t see an obvious move

river prawn
eternal folio
tender grove
#

the problem is idk what else we would do

river prawn
#

Here’s what I posted

I WOULD BE FINE IF THIS WERE AN HONEST DEBATE BETWEEN QC2 AND QD2 BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH GOOD MOVES WITH ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES, BUT INSTEAD I’M STUCK TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE FOR THE PERFECTLY FINE QD2 AND QD3 TO PREVENT A BAD MOVE FROM WINNING

#

904-888, but I’m not unclenching just yet

compact gale
#

Me 2

slow breach
#

I'd love to see that as well. Very exciting and stressful vote here - and somehow, despite the limitations of the "bullet vote" format, we were able to hold Magnus to a draw!! We can do this!! 🙂

river prawn
#

God I hate FPTP

compact gale
#

Agreed (had to look up the acronym tho: First Past The Post (plurality) voting)

river prawn
#

Yeah

compact gale
#

We are tied again

#

I have a surgical procedure, so I must leave. Go, Team, Beat c5!!

#

We need to spend some time showing how bad Nd5 is concretely. I am looking at scary as f* king side attacks by Levy aided by the Nd5.

vagrant pelican
#

c5 in the lead again

compact gale
#

G2G, GL!

#

After 17 c5 Nd5, we can't ignore the king side attacking chances for GothamChess!

#

h3 will not save us.

tender grove
#

he can play anywhere, we have juicy targets on the queenside and overextended pawns in the center too

river prawn
#

ngl I might quit if c5 wins

#

I’ve been disinterested for a while

slow breach
wraith ravine
#

Qc2 is still ahead

#

we got this

compact gale
#

by 5 votes ....

river prawn
#

Tied at 1619

#

I’m shocked it’s stayed close this whole time

scenic nest
river prawn
#

i refuse to make polls for "if c5 wins" as a matter of principle

#

Tied at 1716

#

What is going on

compact gale
#

There aren't many c5 supporters in team chat.

river prawn
#

1743 to 1733, c5 is leading

#

It will remain close

#

No evidence of botting or cheating

compact gale
#

GL, I'll be back in a few hours ....

river prawn
#

What is this

compact gale
#

The beginners just organically gravitating to c5?

#

Not reading chat

#

They are probably not thinking about Nd2 ..Nd6

river prawn
#

1803 to 1791 c5 is leading

river prawn
#

Okay it’s over

#

1949 to 1894

#

I’m done

#

See this is the difference between this game and Anand vs the world

#

In that game, all it took was two pawn captures and it was gg

#

In this game, we will get slowly crushed over 40-50 moves

#

At least with Anand it was over quickly

slow breach
#

I very much share your frustration, Lily, especially as there was no team discussion explaining why c5 is a positive move...

river prawn
#

c5 isn’t horrible

#

But this shows once again we can’t control the game

slow breach
#

That being said, we were able to rebound after the anti-positional ...c5 against Magnus when we were in serious trouble. This is definitely not as bad - frustrating, but still quite playable as far as I can tell.

tender grove
#

her point is that there’s no point sitting here if we can’t change the outcome of the vote

slow breach
# river prawn But this shows once again we can’t control the game

I think it shows, just like the Magnus match, when we were presented with the opportunity to make Typical Mistake Three, we resisted as a team for several moves but eventually this "itch" became irresistible to scratch. I think the vote is this close precisely because we are influencing people. I will share my personal frustration that it is this close and Qc2 is behind - very frustrating. I won't give up on this vote yet, but even if the "bullet moves" take over for this move, the bullet moves will become far more scattered on the next turn when there isn't an obvious move to play.

#

Everyone here has and continues to do a great job supporting Qc2. I will make one more post before calling it a day. I hope we don't see c5 when I return, but I wouldn't be shocked if it is played. If that does happen, I think we can leverage a coherent positional narrative that people will rally around, as the "bullet moves" will become more random and scattered when there isn't an empty, single move attack to play.

wraith ravine
#

That was a fast swing after a long period of it being very close

vagrant pelican
#

I am more disappointed with the queen movers Qd2 and Qd3. Either they are not reading the chat or intentionally ignoring the chat

#

c5 movers are doing what they know. Me see piece, me attack piece

outer lance
#

I haven't given up yet on Qc2, but here is one line we can attempt to play if c5 wins here.

... 17.c5 Nd5 18.Qc2 Qd7 19.Rad1 ...

. This is just one of many playable lines for both sides.
. After 17. c5 Nd5 - Qc2 followed by Rad1 is probably solid for us against a lot of responses by Black.
. We will probably need a poll soon, for what we want to play against both 17. c5, and 17. Qc2, right?
. Still hoping that 17. Qc2 wins, OC.

tender grove
#

Qd7 is like the most passive possible square for his queen lol

#

Qc7 and Qa5 make more sense

vagrant pelican
#

Somewhere in the world c5 voters have woken up

outer lance
vagrant pelican
outer lance
outer lance
vagrant pelican
#

Yes, let’s play Qc2 next turn

#

So black will play Nd5. I guess only 1 poll. Silver lining

outer lance
vagrant pelican
#

What options should I list in the poll? Qc2, Qd2, Qe2, h4?

outer lance
# vagrant pelican What options should I list in the poll? Qc2, Qd2, Qe2, h4?

We have plenty of solid looking moves to keep the game going, considering our position is probably worse with c5.

. The moves you mentioned should definitely be there
. Maybe at least one R move - like Rc1, but definitely NOT a move like Rb1 or similar, since it opens us up to an easy to spot Knight fork.
. Qd3 is basically another developing move too, similar reason for us to play it, when compared to the other Q moves you mentioned.
. Even g3 could be ok here, but IMO only if we are certain h4 would be played by us on the next turn, or very close to the next turn?

compact gale
#

Checking in, oof!

#

Time for c5 polls .... 😣

#

Gotham's knight will likely move to d5, but Nc8 and Nd7 are also possible.

tender grove
#

maybe he won’t notice the attack on his knight

tender grove
#

we should also list Rc1 as an anti candidate move, makes a2 rather annoying to defend

compact gale
tender grove
#

he’s playing Nd5

compact gale
compact gale
tender grove
#

increases his queenside rook’s flexibility

outer lance
#

If c5 by us, then Nd5 is definitely the most likely move by Black, the other retreating moves are probably playable too.
Always good to prepare for as many moves as possible so there is less chance of us being blind-sided, but I think a 17. c5 Nd5 poll should be created first.

compact gale
#

I think Nd7 is less likely than the other two (e7 is why I think that).

vagrant pelican
tender grove
#

Nd5-e7 exists if he really wants to go there

#

the additional pressure on d4 is pretty much irrelevant because he should be better after Nd2 anyway

compact gale
#

Also note that from f5 his knight also attacks d4

#

Against 17 .. Nd5, I think 18 g3, h4, Qe2, Qd2, maybe a4 to inhibit b5?

frail forge
#

Is there a different thread for overall strategy, or is a question about that appropriate here?

compact gale
#

Against 17 .. Nc8, I think Qd3, a4, b4, h3, h4, other Q moves

#

Against 17 .. Nd7, I think Nd2, b4, Qe2, a4, Rb1, other q moves ?

outer lance
# frail forge Is there a different thread for overall strategy, or is a question about that ap...

I think it is ok to post here, but do you mean something like what is being written in the coaches forum, but where everyone can post something like that, if they want?
https://discord.com/channels/387637011965804544/1415393752712876032

Update:
After some testing, it looks' like we can post to the coaches forum.
IMO, it would still be best to post here, or in a general strategy forum, if one became available, so we don't clog up the coaches area.

compact gale
#

If it concerns strategy related to the current or next move, this is fine. For dedicated topical sessions, we have used the #1415399746943844483

frail forge
#

It's how the next move relates to overall winning chances. Doesn't seem like Qc7 and Rg8 is actually a scary as it first looks as long as the knight stays put, and all our winning chances are on the queen side. Shouldn't that push a4 higher on the differential of candidate moves?

outer lance
compact gale
compact gale
#

We shouldn't ignore the queen side since it might be nice to get our knight to d6 via c4 or allow him to slot his a pawn at a6 or something like that.

outer lance
# compact gale I am thinking that c5 has removed our ability to play d5, so play will shift to ...

Makes sense to me.
Also, IMO, our position is probably not losing yet.
But I think before we were playing for a win, but heading for a comfortable and drawish looking end to the game.
Now, after developing our Q and R, we have to likely find lots' of key defensive ideas, within the next few moves, as any potential good attacks are probably out the window.

. Doesn't mean we can't win now, we just made the game more challenging for us, if 17. c5 Nd5 is played.
. c5 has 500+ vote lead over Qc2, so it is basically so near a certainty that winning the USA Powerball jackpot is probably more likely, than Qc2 happening this turn.

compact gale
#

Let's get some polls up.

#

Against 17 .. Nd5, how about 18 g3, h4, Qe2, Qd2, Qc2, a4?

frail forge
compact gale
#

What queen side majority? That backward d pawn kind of takes all the air out of that idea, methinks

frail forge
#

Yeah, dxc at some point is probably a pipe dream.

compact gale
#

He might even be able to bxc, dxc and ?xc at some point.

outer lance
# compact gale He might even be able to bxc, dxc and ?xc at some point.

I could even see something like this line being played:
... 17.c5 Nd5 18.Qd3 b5 or b6 19.cxb6 axb6 ...

. Black gets' to develop their R without moving it by getting the semi-open a-file.
. The position is still relatively calm after 17. c5, as I think both sides have plenty of candidate looking moves
. This is just an idea, based on the above conversation, not necessarily promoting we play 18. Qd3, but I am considering it.

compact gale
#

I just created the Nd5 poll, didn't include Qd3, sorry. You can use Other for that

frail forge
compact gale
#

Against 17 .. Nc8, I think Qd3, a4, b4, h3, h4, and which other Q moves?

#

c2, d2, e2 ?

outer lance
#

As I think I stated earlier, I really like g3 followed by h4, or h4 first against 17. Nd5, but I think it will be extremely unlikely that those moves being the vote leader on chess.com, against Nd5.

. If h4 ends up winning the Discord poll, hopefully it has a lot more momentum than it had earlier in the game, when we tried to push for it?
. Also, I think g3 first is too sharp and easy to misplay in this kind of format, since I would want to play h4 against most move by Black, on our very next turn.
. Because of this I will probably vote for one of the Q moves, not sure which one yet?

compact gale
#

Against 17 .. Nd7, I think Nd2, b4, Qe2, a4, Rb1, other q moves ?

dim girder
#

what about 17. c5, Nd5, b4, Qc7 (Nxb4?, Rb1, Nxa2? (a5, a3), Qd2, Qd5, Re2, - win the horse), Qb3, b5 (a5, b5, a4, Qb2, a3, Qb3), a4 or am i missing something? he can't take the b4 pawn, and we can push on the queenside, right? Or am I wrong?

outer lance
#

Voted early in the polls, will consider changing my vote later, if there is any tied votes in a few hours, or if I think another move is better after more thought.

compact gale
#

I didn't include b4 unintentionally. Since poll is started you can use Other to vote for that.

#

Agreed that b4 can't be taken safely by Nd5.

wanton bobcat
#

I def prefer Qc2 or Qe2. more of Qc2 because we get off file and we dont block the e rook

#

if we go centralize w Qd3 then e5 is a problem undermining the structure.

tender grove
#

ykw i dont care about giving suggestions that we could actually suggest to the masses anymore

#

lets play b4 after Nd5

#

actually he just plays a5 nvm

#

this is how i lose blitz games, gotta love it

#

actually actually thats fine nvm

#

lets do it

compact gale
wanton bobcat
#

ill see what moves we have as candidates for him first

#

y'all
I dont want to play c5.

#

it gives his knight the square in the center.

#

and then we cant kick it out. its a rly bad positional move js for a one mover, can we pls not do it?

#

oh and another disadvantage. we create a backward pawn on d4.

dim girder
# tender grove actually he just plays a5 nvm

a5, a3 - and if he takes, we take back. He still can’t capture with the knight because b7 is not protected. If b4, then capture with the c pawn and exchange pawns and if he ignores it, then play Qb3 to prepare b5.

wanton bobcat
#

an alternative to attack that knight is a4

#

however, hes almost def gon play a5. and we suddenly have a backward pawn on b3.

#

i'm rambling, but Qc2 is a rly good move and I want to push it

tender grove
wanton bobcat
#

@compact gale I hope this will be accepted as a suggestion if we havent decided a move yet

tender grove
#

0% chance we can convince anyone to play it though

compact gale
tender grove
wanton bobcat
wanton bobcat
dim girder
wanton bobcat
#

if y'all please go vote for Qc2 instead :(*

tender grove
compact gale
#

c5 has a convincingly large lead. We tried to stop it with Qc2. Kept it close for 4 hours, but c5 had too many supporters not reading team chat.

wanton bobcat
#

yeah WTF these guys will ruin the game for us

#

it seems the margin is reducing?

compact gale
#

This was a significant positional error that reminds me of the Magnus game, where as black after castling queenside they chose to play c5 to annoy Magnus's queen for a moment

dim girder
wanton bobcat
#

yeah bruh

compact gale
#

We did draw that game ..

wanton bobcat
#

I js hate why more people'd vote for one movers

#

its js NUTS

compact gale
# compact gale We did draw that game ..

but I do feel Magnus got overconfident and gave us a chance to recover (not to be nice, just overconfident that we would make more poor moves - and amazingly, we didn't!)

compact gale
#

I think Gotham will be feeling he has good winning chances after c5.

#

We are not lost, but I wouldn't take a bet that we will draw this game. That said, we should put up the best fight we can.

dim girder
#

I just don't get why people who vote for c5, even bother to vote at all, either you spend some time on it, and then you wouldn't vote for c5, even with 100 elo, or you don't, and then what's the fun in voting for a random move? it's like going to presidential elections, knowing only the candidates names, and nothing else...

vagrant pelican
#

It’s easy to blame c5 voters. This is the world team - there will always be such voters. Painful part is Q moves put together are 40 percent!! That shows good voters outnumber c5 voters massively and yet we’re here. Lack of team work. It’s more than 20 percent people not playing with the team

compact gale
#

If the queen movers had unified on Qc2, c5 wouldn't have stood a chance.

United we would've won, divided we fell.

So we can't blame just the c5 beginners.

Plenty of blame to go around for our collective poor teamwork.

dim girder
vagrant pelican
#

To beat c5 in move 16

dim girder
#

before the move is played

vagrant pelican
#

Anyway, let’s talk about after 17… Nd5. What are the really bad moves that masses might vote for? In our polls, I see pawn moves are being favored. But are any of the queen moves bad? I think that might be favored by masses

jovial magnet
#

holy

#

800 vote lead

#

it's over, we can only hope for a good ol' clasic levy throw

#

in a 24h time control

#

somehow

#

:c

compact gale
#

@dim girder and @tender grove what is your other move for Nd5 poll?

dim girder
dim girder
tender grove
#

yep b4

#

I don’t think we have any hope of controlling the vote so im just voting for an interesting move that id play

compact gale
#

Thanks, will create an emoji for that

dim girder
jovial magnet
#

g4 - g5 - Ne5 to control the d7 square and prevent our weak pawn from being taken would be an interesting idea

tender grove
#

theres your catastrophic move

jovial magnet
#

what are the possible consequences of his knight having control over the f4 square?

compact gale
#

UApawn = b4 (please bump the count on the emoji reaction to the Nd5 poll @dim girder and @tender grove )

tender grove
#

👍

river prawn
#

Absolute idiot low Elo players ruining the game

#

I’m tired of getting slowly crushed

#

Honestly, I know enough now that I could probably beat The World

#

And I’m not even that good

tender grove
jovial magnet
river prawn
tender grove
#

I mean yeah most people could

river prawn
compact gale
#

@scenic nest Please vote for Other on the Nd5 poll so your b4 vote will be tabulated correctly

tender grove
#

if they actually tried idk why magnus didn’t bother

#

baby? what baby

scenic nest
vagrant pelican
river prawn
#

I just want to play normal chess

#

We could have debated which queen move was best

#

But instead we’re stuck constantly fighting bad moves from low Elo players

vagrant pelican
#

The simple fact is 40 percent is voting for a queen move and 23 percent is c5

vagrant pelican
tender grove
#

nobody looks at the current position and thinks that Qc2 is better than Qd2 but we had to vote it in an effort to stop c5

river prawn
#

we can maybe influence the vote by 2-4 percent maximum

river prawn
compact gale
#

The Kasparov vs World game was designed for multipel coach led team work. The 4 coaches (young strong very promising payers) had 6 hours to analyze the game before the world was notified of Kasparov's move. The schedule was the same every day.

river prawn
#

this is a mockery

#

also there weren't so many low elo players in Kasparov vs the World

tender grove
#

Qc2 does nothing how would it be good, at least Qd2 gives it future prospects

river prawn
#

this has been a dry, boring game

tender grove
river prawn
tender grove
#

the queen is perfectly fine on the d file

river prawn
#

not after Rad8 and c5

tender grove
#

and it’s heading to the queenside anyway

river prawn
#

look

#

none of this matters

#

this is the debate we could have had

compact gale
river prawn
#

but instead we're stuck with c5 because there are too many low elo idiots

#

they won't read the team chat

#

they won't listen to anyone

#

they go "hurrr durrr attack knight"

#

i supported Qc2 because i predicted it would have the best chance of beating c5

#

and i was right

#

but it still wasn't enough

compact gale
#

Sometimes, enough listen, sometimes they don't. Just when you think they are following our lead, they go the other way.

river prawn
#

there needs to be a minimum elo level or posting in the chat requirement for the next game like this

river prawn
#

the people that know what they're doing are at most 10 percent

compact gale
#

Not that simple, Lily

river prawn
#

no it really is

#

did you see the number of votes for Nxf6+ and Bxf6 earlier

tender grove
compact gale
#

We won't convince each other

river prawn
dim girder
river prawn
#

and put an elo minimum

#

600 to vote, 1000 to vote without posting in the chat

#

i do believe in gatekeeping

#

it's the only way to have an actually interesting and balanced game instead of this garbage

compact gale
#

I don't think chess.com will consider an elo limit

river prawn
#

mark my words, we won't get obliterated by a tactic like against Anand, we'll just get slowly crushed positionally

#

also, vote chess needs Ranked Choice Voting

tender grove
#

^^

compact gale
#

And their software is old and we are probably stuck with it for a year or more

river prawn
#

because basically every move has been "This move is bad, don't vote for it, vote for the only other move with a chance of winning"

#

because there's basically no analysis because there doesn't have to be much analysis

#

there's a move that's obviously bad, and a move that's better than that

#

there used to be tons of analysis on why Bxg6 was or was not a good move

#

i insist it was always good, and that was reasonable debate

compact gale
#

The games are getting bigger, and I think that actually hurts the quality of play

river prawn
#

this is not reasonable debate

river prawn
tender grove
river prawn
#

there needs to be gatekeeping

#

because this has been the most boring game i've ever played

tender grove
#

have you tried club vote chess

river prawn
#

no, but that would be so much better than this

compact gale
#

I think they would consider doing something to make team chat participation "mandatory" before making and confirming your vote. But that is a software change, they are not eager to make

river prawn
#

because you could restrict entry into your team

#

i've resorted to spamming Qc2 good c5 bad

vagrant pelican
river prawn
#

that would be so much better than this garbage

#

this discord server should form a vote chess team

tender grove
#

im mostly done trying to influence the vote, just figuring what interesting ideas I can come up with at this point (such as b4 next turn)

compact gale
#

We were prepared to do that from our previous Discord Server

river prawn
#

it doesn't even matter

#

just develop the queen and the a1 rook

#

doesn't matter where

#

there aren't any obviously bad moves i see us playing anytime soon

#

does this discord server have a club on chess.com?

#

because that is what is used for vote chess

#

also, we're stuck in this game until checkmate

#

there is absolutely no way even when it's mate in one there will be enough votes for resign

#

or offer draw

outer lance
# river prawn no, but that would be so much better than this

Not trying to contradict you, but I have played in many vote chess games where I provided plenty of reasoning and tactics for moves I think we should play, and people just play something random about half the time.

. I like the forming a club idea though, sound great and I would join.
. If we form a vote chess club / or any chess club, we should have a guideline with something like, "all our members playing in a vote chess match are strongly advised to read the team chat before voting", or something similar to that?
. I will make a place-holder club name, and we can work out a better name for our club later.

Should we move this discussion to another channel?

compact gale
#

We were able to resign finally in the ElDivis game (IM David Martinez)

#

Just after ElDivis promoted a pawn to a queen and convincingly killed off any hope of us queening.

vagrant pelican
compact gale
vagrant pelican
compact gale
#

Please vote in our move 18 polls!

#

Currently in our polls:

17 .. Nd7 18 Qe2 has the lead with 3 votes
17 .. Nc8 18 Qc2 and b4 share the lead with 3 votes
17 .. Nd5 18 h4 and b4 share the lead with 3 votes

compact gale
#

In the 17 .. Nd5 poll, I think h4 is better than b4, because b4 essentially commits white to protect b4, giving black two tempi to launch a king-side attack

#

For instance: with Rh8, Qg8, Qh7, Qh5, g5

dim girder
dim girder
#

Or maybe even Rxe6, fxe6, Qb7+ instead of Qa4?

#
  1. b4 Rh8 19. Qb3 Qg8 20. b5
    Qh7 21. bxc6 bxc6 22. Rxe6 or Qa4 ?

Imho he would be forced to react.

dim girder
compact gale
#

@pliant pasture what was your intent by tapping the !! emoji?

dim girder
#

Or I don't know, maybe the attack on the kingside is just too strong? Qa4 seems too slow. I don’t know, I’ll get some sleep first. Or maybe h3 instead of Qa4

tender grove
#

I wouldn’t count it as a vote

pearl rover
#

Do you think everyone votes c5 with the idea of rerouting the knight to d6? Probably not...

river ravine
#

Can someone give me the PGN of the game?

#

nvm this is the position, but black played kg7

G4cC7ucXAAALkV4.png
#

Qc1 allows us to activate our queen on the darksquare and also allows us to push the pawn to force the knight to choke the roook

pearl rover
#

or do you want to play a4?

river ravine
#

If A4 queen goes to e7 which gives them a stron control of the dark squares

pearl rover
#

a4 Qe7 a5 Nd7 c5 e5 b4. Something like that

#

But c5 is leading in the votes, so there’s no point in calculating this.

pearl rover
#

I think Levy’s plan is to place the knight on f4, the queen on d5, and the rook on h8.

wraith ravine
#

Wait so what is the plan with h4?

vagrant pelican
wraith ravine
#

Yeah

eternal folio
#

did levy move yet?

compact gale
#

We have two tied polls. Please vote in the polls now if you haven't already voted!

compact gale
#

Thank you all! The ties are broken at the moment:

.. Nd5 18 h4 has a 1 vote lead
.. Nc8 18 Qc2 has a 1 vote lead
.. Nd7 18 Qe2 has a 2 vote lead

#

Drafting recommendations now with 95 minutes until our turn ends

compact gale
#

**First draft, feedback requested!

If GothamChess plays 17 .. Nd5, we play 18 h4 to defuse Gotham's king side attack ambitions. We might follow up with g3 and Kg2 if needed.

If GothamChess plays 17 .. Nc8, we play 18 Qc2, finally connecting our rooks and enabling our queen to go to e4. Preparing against king side attacks is likely next.

If GothamChess plays 17 .. Nd7, we play 18 Qe2, finally connecting our rooks and ready to assist with central or queen-side pawn advances.**

#

Many players are on the side lines undecided or don't care. We have 474 World Team players. Where are you?

#

90 are online now

#

70 minutes left in our turn

#

Our move ends at 15:56 UTC

slow breach
compact gale
slow breach
#

I think Levy will almost certainly play 17...Nd5, and 18. h4 is a creative, non-intuitive move that we'll definitely want to explain early and often. That move didn't occur to me, but is quite interesting.

compact gale
#

I will be posting in 10 minutes if no feedback

slow breach
#

I think Lily also mentioned a basic plan with Qd2, preparing b4, which I think also makes good sense

compact gale
#

We can discuss further, but initial recommendations are going out before our turn ends in 57 minutes and we have polls (still open) but we will respect.

#

They are initial recommendations

slow breach
#

Makes sense, David. I think we'll get tons of support for Qd2 as a significant number of voters who likely completely ignored the team discussions supported that choice on move 17. So, 18. h4 is a creative idea to share as an initial recommendation, and I think we'll likely see a flood of Qd2 "bullet moves" as well.

compact gale
#

I haven't concentrated on Qd2, is there a problem with that move?

slow breach
#

I don't think so - Qd2 seems pretty sensible - eyeing the f4 square and supporting b3-b4.

dim girder
#

If we want to play b4, then I think it's better to play b4 right now and then Qb3.

slow breach
#

One potential drawback is it denies the knight on f3 an escape square, so we have to look out for ..g5-g4 ideas

compact gale
#

b4 is in 2nd place in our .. Nd5 poll behind h4 against .. Nd5

#

(only 1 vote behind)

slow breach
vagrant pelican
#

Irrespective of our recommendation, a queen move will win this time

compact gale
#

Because of queen move momentum, I presume?

#

Same thing with split voting can easily happen again

slow breach
#

I think Qd2 will be the next "bullet move" wave made by voters that do not look at our discussions. Over time, these bullet moves should feel more scattered, but since there was such a push for Qd2 "in the dark," I think we'll likely see that as the frontrunner again.

#

If 18. Qd2 is played, then we'll have to decide how we're going to handle the position after 18...g5.

#
  1. h3 will likely be a bullet move response, and may be OK. As gross as 19. g3 would look, is that also playable? It denies the knight access to the f4 square at the expense of compromising our kingside light squares.
compact gale
#

Qc2 was the first place Q move last turn.

slow breach
#

Yes, Qc2 was the "champion" we united around as a team. Qd2 was a popular "blind" vote that completely ignored our discussions, leading me to believe this move will still be quite popular.

compact gale
#

Qd3 was almost same vote as Qd2

slow breach
#

So, despite the team doing an incredible job clearly and consistently advocating for Qc2, the Qd2 voters sank the queen moving-initiative

slow breach
compact gale
#

(and Qd3 voters)

slow breach
#

How deeply have we analyzed this 18. h4 idea? It seems quite interesting but haven't been a part of the analysis process.

compact gale
#

Qc2 was our initial recommendation last move, not a compromise.

#

But it was leading the gang of q moves

#

Looking at how many vote c5 has, we never really stood a chance of stopping that.

slow breach
#

In any case, I think you're right we'll see a number of queen moves this turn. I think Qd2 will overwhelm the ballot - we'll see - but also curious to better understand our 18. h4 analysis.

compact gale
#

I have looked at it and voted for it. h4 g3 Kg2 is a good defensive formation against a king side attack by Gotham. That said, as long as we start with g3 or h4, we don't have to make the other moves immediately or at all depending on how aggressively Gotham plays the h-file and g-pawn.

slow breach
compact gale
#

I would love to hear from the other h4 voters.

#

32 minutes left. I am going to post the initial recommendations unless I hear differently

#

in the next few minutes

#

@slow breach What exactly do you mean by a bullet vote? Does it mean an impulsive (bad) move based on not thinking even one move ahead?

#

Posted

image.png
vagrant pelican
slow breach
#

Yes, we lost to a wave of bullet moves that impulsively attacked the knight without a second thought or desire to participate in the team discussion.

#

"Bullet moves" = unchecked intuition

#

I call "bullet moves" or "gut reactions" our intuition, which is very useful to consider as our intuition is guiding us toward an important detail. We can compliment our intuition by searching for alternative options and general calculation, which is what our team discussion is intended to help provide.

slow breach
#

On a positive note, I just made a post that I'll also repeat once our pawn officially lunges forward to c5. I complimented the team here and specificed to join us in the "Next-move-discussion" to direct interested members to our team discussion here.

#

I think 18. h4 is a creative idea, and I'm optimistic that we can keep the game interesting if we continue to work together and not let setbacks derail us.

compact gale
#

1m ..

#

c5 lead by 3400 votes 9%

#

We really need to have a multi-coach format with coaching analysis and recommendations available before we can move to play well like in Kasparove against the World

#

17 c5 is on the board

slow breach
#

Thanks, David. I'll repeat my message now that the move is official. We'll see where it goes from here...

slow breach
compact gale
#

I am refreshing so I can post on team chat, we are in the archiving period now with no team chat

#

@slow breach You posted in the public chat, team chat is still archiving

slow breach
#

Ah, ok. Thanks! I'll leave it up there - perhaps it will attract some new people?

compact gale
#

But also repost it in a few minutes

#

in team chat

#

This archiving stuff is really annoying

#

taking longer than normal ?

#

That was a big one to archive tho, wasn't it due to the 1 week delay

slow breach
#

Sure, let me know when it is archived and I'll post again

compact gale
#

Watching it like a hawk

#

This is much longer archiving delay than normal

slow breach
#

I imagine there's quite a bit of content to archive based upon the community's tremendous effort to counter the bullet move tsunami!

compact gale
#

Lots of "why hasn't Levy mooooooved?" posts to archive ....
"Is the clock frozen? Did we win?"

#

over 20 minutes ...

#

Somebody needs to tell them to update their floppy drive based archive system

#

30 minutes archiving ...

#

35 minutes ..

vagrant pelican
#

Wow. I thought there was some problem on my side that I couldn’t see private chat

#

The week long chat archiving happened when we played b3

compact gale
#

@ripe cloud The game site seems to be hung? Can you check if there is a problem. Archiving has not completed in the last 45 minutes

ripe cloud
#

will check!

compact gale
#

The display is wrong, it says our turn with 23 hours to go, but it is not our turn.

#

Team chat is not available

inner iron
#

It's showing that our time is counting down, but it's levy's turn since we just played c5... right?

#

Ok, i'm not going crazy then... >.<

compact gale
#

Yes, but it is confusing the heck out of a lot of people and is a problem for team chat (which is not available)

compact gale
#

The game has been hung for over 1 hour 8 minutes

compact gale
#

Game is broken for over 90 minutes now.

dim girder
#

maybe we created too many posts and it broken something

compact gale
#

Perhaps, but they could update us. Let us know they are aware of and acting to fix the problem.

tender grove
#

hopefully they just give us a second turn in a row to justify c5

#

🙏

compact gale
#

Or grant us our wish to make the c5 pawn move backwards and replaced by Qc2

compact gale
#

Now 2 hours and 10 minutes

dim girder
#

Ok, they fixed it and he played Nd5 immediately.

compact gale
#

We can't see the vote after voting now

#

And the clocks are wrong.

#

They are really having problems

#

You can vote now, so please do!!!

#

@ripe cloud The game is still broken.

#

I was able to vote, but it doesn't show that I did.

#

That is broken. It is our turn. I voted and it doesn't show that I did or show the current vote tally.

#

Are other people seeing this too?

dim girder
#

y

#

same thing

compact gale
#

Can you vote?

#

We are pushing 18 h4 in response to 17 .. Nd5

#

If you can move, please vote for that

#

h4 in the lead!

#

but it is very early. Qd2 in 2nd place and Qd3 in 3rd

#

@slow breach The game is in a weird state, but we can post in team chat. I'll post an image of your post in team chat

#

Hold the phone

#

@ripe cloud The situation is escalating.

#

Houston, we have a problem

#

Gotham has moved already

#

Things are very screwy, but people are voting.

#

h4 still leading 33/18/10

#

Use this link and switch to team chat

#

Just insane

river prawn
#

the game appears to be bugged

compact gale
#

Yes, but you can vote and Gotham has moved.

river prawn
#

i voted but it's not showing i voted and i can't see the vote totals

compact gale
#

Use the link above

#

It works

#

(more or less) enough to see that you vote is made and what they current tally is

river prawn
#

im not seeing any new votes tho

compact gale
#

It was posted on team chat by @dfgh123

river prawn
#

okay im seeing a few

#

but nowhere near as many as expected

#

honestly, h4 is fine, but so are Qd3, Qd2, and Qc2

#

even h3 is good

#

no bad moves this time

compact gale
#

Yes, very slow, but that makes sense give the nasty bug

#

Yes.

#

<@&1377312389040443522> Things are in a weird state, but you can vote now. Gotham has moved 17 .. Nd5

#

h4(39)/Qd2(28)/Qd3(12)

pale rover
#

🥀

compact gale
pale rover
#

Qd2 is fine but we want h4

compact gale
#

h4 is winning. Have you voted?

river prawn
#

im calling it, Qd2 will win

pale rover
#

yea probably

#

and yes i did vote

river prawn
#

the current votes are disproportionally from this server

pale rover
river prawn
#

the h4 lead is meaningless

#

i predict Qd2 will win by over a thousand votes

slow breach
#

I voted for 18. h4 and am encountering the same issues described - we're discussing this in our work channels

compact gale
#

The vote is very slow since people are very very confused.

scenic nest
vagrant pelican
#

I can’t see the vote totals

tender grove
#

hopefully it stays this way, the less random people voting the better

#
  • it incentivizes them to read/ ask in chat
vagrant pelican
compact gale
#

It was someone on team chat

vagrant pelican
#

h4’s lead is small. No way it will hold

#

Only way it can if the problem doesn’t get fixed till our turn is over 😝

crude gull
#

Qd2?

crude gull
river prawn
#

Qd2 might be better than h4

#

Hard to say

#

h4 gives us moves to play