next-move-discussion

[river prawn]

because instead of just playing 15..Nxe5 16.dxe5 Nd5, black throws in the intermezzo 16..Rad8!, followed by 17..Rd2, before playing 18..Ng4, and we are in trouble

[slow breach]

Yes, there are likely concrete reasons to consider c4-c5, although I am unsure we'll be able to consistently manage the dynamic play necessary to justify this structural commitment. The more I think about the position, the more I am OK with 12. Ne4 and chill, so to speak. After 12...Be7 13. Nxf6+ Bxf6, I think 14. Qd2 is reasonable, and even 14. Bxf6 is possible. I don't love drifting into "Mistake One" thinking, of course, but how playable does the resulting position feel? We are not accepting any clear weaknesses, c2-c3 can be played if needed to support d4. Definitely an interesting opportunity for the team to map out these type of positions and see how comfortable everyone feels playing this way and also discussing the game strategy in the chat.

[river prawn]

Right, but isn’t 13..Nxf6 more likely and probably better?

[slow breach]

Yes, 13...Nxf6 seems reasonable as well. Trading a pair of knights might not be the end of the world here (trading Ng3 for Nd7, in effect). I'd have to look at the position more closely, but how comfortable can we complete development and just "play chess" from a balanced-looking position? One advantage to this type of play is it does feel relatively straightforward to play without demanding very precise play to keep the game in comfortable territory? Happy to hear other thoughts from the team, of course, but 12. Ne4 doesn't feel like a terrible team choice, especially compared to 12. Ne5

[river prawn]

Yeah, I think 13.c5 is way too commital. Perhaps something solid like 13.Qe2 or 13.Qc2 is better

[slow breach]

I'm with you that c2-c4 feels like a good move and is a healthy way to build our position. I wonder if the structure will prove too "high maintenance" in the long-term, especially the timing of c4-c5 and its associated dynamic piece play we need to properly understand as a team? It would be nice to sketch out the c2-c4 dynamics and compare it to the likely simplifications of Ne4. I'll post a "feeler" in the game chat without providing any context, so leave the comment I'm about to share unanswered and see how people may respond. 🙂

Just posted: "Positional vibes check" with the simplified position after 13...Nxf6 just to see how people may respond without suggesting a clear path to reach that position.

I think we can build a fairly coherent narrative that the knight on g3 will be difficult to play as a team and that we can "improve" it by centralizing on e4, preparing to trade knights on f6 after ...Be7 (keeping it simple and removing the awkwardness of the knight on g3). Removing the knight awkwardness might make the resulting position easier for the team to play and give us easier moves to play after the simplifications (we'd need to work out c2-c3, Qe2 or another square, and how to complete development, but it seems like basic centralization shouldn't be the end of the world). Likely improvements can be found with that suggested development, but just an example of sketching something fairly straight forward.

[river prawn]

We play c3 instead of c4 in that position, right?

[slow breach]

I think so - once we trade pieces we are focusing on less dynamic play and want to remain solid. I don't like leaving the d4 pawn "loose" and have the associated temptation of c4-c5. Again, these are just quick "sketches," so we can likely find improvements, but if we can trade the awkward g3 knight for Black's d7 knight, play c2-c3 and complete devleopment, how does that position feel to play as a team?

[river prawn]

The other way to play the position is with Qe2, Rad1, and keep the tension

I don’t know if that’s good from a practical standpoint

[pearl rover]

It’s easier to trade the g3 knight than to find a way to reroute it to the center and then explain it to the world.

[vagrant pelican]

So it seems we are between c4 and Ne4 and the anti candidate move is Ne5

[slow breach]

Yes, this will be an important moment. I don't like the idea of splitting the vote between c4 and Ne4. My intuition is 12. Ne4 will be easier to play and explain as a team. I personally lack confidence that we'll be able to unite the vote around 12. c4 (remember how poorly my recommendation of Anand's b3 performed earlier in the game). As we enter the middlegame, we need to consider objective factors but also strongly consider subjective elements like "playability" and the ability to explain and follow our ideas as a team.

[vagrant pelican]

Stats for potential moves at this position

[river prawn]

look at that win rate difference for Qe2

[river prawn]

after 12.c4 Qc7, white has never lost a game in the Masters Database

4-0-30

[river prawn]

what about 14.Bxf6 gxf6!?

All of a sudden Kg7-Rh8 is problematic

ok

possible moves

for next move

12.Ne4
12.Ne5
12.c3
12.c4
12.Qe2

[slow breach]

Sure, good to keep in mind! I do prefer 14. Qd2 there, which I think can be a reasonable move to sell. It's good practice to start exploring "worst case scenario" situations, such as your idea of moving the king and then ...Rh8. At such a point, do we have a reasonable defense to hold the balance in this worst case scenario?

[river prawn]

i think h3 works okay, but overall the position is not even good for us positionally, even if we're fine tactically

I don't want to trade off pieces to try to make the position easier to play, when every trade gives GothamChess a small edge

because less pieces on the board does not mean less potential for blunders

I mean look at Kasparov vs. the World

that was 7 pieces

@slow breach tell the chat that we don't have to worry about "creating an open file for the rook" because 11.Bxg6 fxg6? 12.Rxe6 wins a pawn for nothing. Maybe people will listen to you because they're not listening to me

[slow breach]

Nice work! Please share a diagram and show those two moves - a visual might help quite a bit as the discussion by itself may feel abstract.

[compact gale]

What are our candidate moves for Move 12 given 11 Bxg6 hxg6?

[slow breach]

The more I engage with the chat, the more optimistic I am to see people actually asking why a certain move isn't so great or why we might prefer a certain move. I think more people are "tuning in" to more involved discussions as we prepare to exit the opening and there aren't as many "automatic" moves to consider. As we discuss our direction moving forward as a team, I'm becoming more encouraged to "keep it simple" and clearly explain the positonal narrative behind why we might play Ne4 x f6 and how this may be easy for us to play as a team. Simpler positions do not necessarily mean they are simpler to play, and we still run the risk of blundering as Lily noted. My preference is to steer the game toward calmer waters 12. Ne4 and Nxf6+ because we can tell a healthy, clear positional story and explain the reasons behind our moves. I would not consider 11. Ne5 for a second, not because it is a bad move, but simply I don't "see" a need to improve a well-placed piece. That being said, a lot of people do see 11. Ne5 as a "natural," move, which makes me a bit less inclined to keep the game in more complicated channels (says the guy who suggested an early h2-h4 😉 )

[slow breach]

I recommend 12. Ne4 with the plan of trading our misplaced knight on g3 for Black's knight on d7 (12...Be7 13. Nxf6+). Lily and others have pointed out 12. c4 as an active choice which also deserves attention.

[river prawn]

12.c4 is in third on this vote

[vagrant pelican]

These that Lily shared and also show up in lichess database

12.Ne4
12.Ne5
12.c3
12.c4
12.Qe2

[river prawn]

12.c4 gets us back to Masters games

12.c4 Qc7 13.Qe2 has a 60% win rate for white compared with roughly 40-45% in all other lines

[compact gale]

I'll create a candidate poll for those. But don't jump to vote. Lets focus on discussion first. Even if you do vote early, you can change your vote for 24 hours after it goes up.

[river prawn]

I think 12.c4 is the best in a purely objective sense, but we have to understand that we don't control this entire game

12.Ne4 and 12.Ne5 both involve trading knights

because trying to support the knight on e5 with f4 is not a good idea

[slow breach]

Yep - totally understand your reasoning, Lily. I spent quite a bit of time in chat today, and judging by the type of responses I'm seeing, I feel confident that easy, understandable, and reproducable narratives are effective. How many people expected to see our bishops maintain the tension for this long? Certainly not me.

[river prawn]

another benefit of 12.c4 is it puts us back in book

[river prawn]

not only that, but we were able to control when they finally were traded off

[compact gale]

I was leaning toward 12 Ne4 Be7 13 c4

[river prawn]

unlike Carlsen vs the World when the World kept voting for the anti-positional c5, and then eventually it was played, and it still wasn't a good move. In that game, they weren't in control

[compact gale]

Also I have some concerns about exchanging our dark square bishop for his knight, which just gets replaced by his other knight. I'd rather have him initiate the exchange and we exchange bishops.

[slow breach]

I think the clearer and simpler the positional story we can tell and help others understand, the more likely we'll be able to "influence" the game in a positive direction. The knight on f3 is well placed, the knight on g3 is poorly placed and it isn't clear how we will improve it in the long run. I think trading this piece is a fairly straight forward narrative, and unlike committing to 13. c2-c4, we reserve the right to "lock down" our d4 space advantage with c2-c3. None of this is to say 12. Ne4 is "better" than 12. c4, and if only the Discord chat were playing here, I'd also recommend c2-c4. The more I am interacting in the game chat and seeing positive responses to us taking the time to share the ideas behind the moves (just like Lily did by showing a diagram where the pawn is blundered if Levy plays fxg6??), the more receptive people seem to be in discussing and joining a "positional narrative" that is easily explained and understood. I don't feel confident that the people who see 11. Ne5 and I am completely blind to will easily subscribe to complicated pawn structures and maneuvers.

In any case, this is just my perspective that keeping it simple, clear, and explainable will likely result in more positive outcomes as a way to unite the team and get people to "buy in" rather than "check out" from the more complex considerations and blast out an impulsive move.

[river prawn]

i put "Free pawn. Tasty."

how do you feel about 12.c4 Qc7 13.c5!?

[slow breach]

Yes, good point. Lily points out Gotham will probably play ...Nxf6 which seems perhaps more likely than ...Bxf6. If we see ...Bxf6, I suggest Qd2, supporting our bishop and continuing to develop rather than trading on f6.

[river prawn]

that won't win over Bxf6

I don't think we should go for random trades

[slow breach]

I think it is a clever idea, but it is also a "bridge burning" decision that I think will result in more difficult play for the community to support. We may see the dynamic potential in that structure, but I fear as a community we will not play in an accurate enough fashion to not eventually blunder the backward d4 pawn or get eaten up by the hole on d5 we created for his knight.

[river prawn]

i think 12.c4 Qc7 13.Qe2 is much safer

[compact gale]

I really am not comfortable with assuming we know what the world will play. Lets put our best foot forward and explain our reasoning. We haven't been using diagrams much, and that might help to visually explain.

[slow breach]

Not sure - I don't think either of us assumed the bishops would remain on the contested light-squared diagonal for as long as they have - this is what makes the match so interesting! I think our ability to create the "Three Mistakes" narrative and consistently apply these examples to practical moves has been helpful. I think we should still practice avoiding "Typical Mistake One," but just like today's vote, we gave context to why trading bishops makes sense on this move. You're right that we run the risk of "automatic" captures on f6, and that might happen, but I do have some confidence that as we help explain a clear, simple positional narrative, people will be more receptive to Qd2, just like, to my surprise, the community was receptive to not making the impulsive capture on g6 for so many moves.

[river prawn]

In Carlsen vs the World, a lot of the low rated players stopped voting after 10-15 moves, allowing for more accurate middlegame play. Are we observing that now?

[slow breach]

Agreed - we don't know. I think it is fair to assume that the more tempting candidate moves linger in the position, the more difficult it will be for us to unite the vote. I am encouraged by us not capturing on g6 until necessary as an indication that more people are buying in to a relatable, clear positional story. This is why I think 12. Ne4 is a sound path both objectively and practically, but also understand why the team may want to consider other alternatives.

[slow breach]

There might be some impact of the game "dragging out" for less experienced players, but I think Gotham is far more active and engaged with his fans / media covering this game. I think less experienced players will remain very interested in the game, if only to "see what Gotham is doing" and having an ability to contribute to this match. This is also a great opportunity for us to help less experienced players consider the moves through a healthy positional lens and try to increase our "community intuition" to try and minimize the International Master's intuition on the other side of the board.

Magnus played at a much slower pace than Gotham, with several occurences in which he didn't make a move in 24 hours. Gotham is keeping the game more fast paced so it feels like a very much "live" game rather than sitting during a Magnus "time out."

[river prawn]

ok

we should see how the server feels

i mean

there's nothing wrong about either 12.c4 or 12.Ne4, they are just different ways to play the position

12.Ne5 definitely feels wrong though

idk about 12.c3 but that seem awfully passive

we need the next move poll

[slow breach]

OK, I'm signing off. Thanks to everyone for sharing your perspectives, being open-minded to other opinions, and also jumping into the game chat to help share ideas and answer questions.

[river prawn]

More than 1 option allowed?

[compact gale]

Yes

Also fishing for moves we didn't list and whether we want to spend time on all 5.

This is a short 8h non-binding poll.

After more discussion we'll put up a binding 24h poll

[pale rover]

c4 probably best

like

its a semiopen pos so we should probably aim to take space first with c4

ill come up with a line later

at school rn

[compact gale]

I don't think 12 Ne5 is good for us after 12 .. Qc7 13 Qe2 c5

[pearl rover]

I prefer Ne4 over Ne5. Qe2 works well with c3 and Rd1, a typical London setup that’s easy to play and explain. I’m hesitant about c4; the coach is right that a c4–c5 push leads to dynamic play and gives Black a knight outpost, and we would also need to reroute the g3 knight toward d6 or find another way to activate it, which is complicated.

[river prawn]

We are not playing c5, that’s way too committing

[vagrant pelican]

True but a pawn move to attack a piece is what people like playing like the c5 in Magnus game

[river prawn]

it's probably the best move, but then what

it's anti-positional, but it's been played in all 3 of the last Masters games

there has to be a good reason for it

[compact gale]

@inland depot Which move did you have in mind for the Other move to consider in the poll?

[vagrant pelican]

The key would be to communicate why we don’t want to exchange. We held off exchanging the light bishops for 3 moves. So there’s some hope of people continue to exhibit restraint

[river prawn]

I will note that 12.Qe2 can transpose to the other lines since 13.Qe2 is possible after 12.c4 Qc7

[river prawn]

how do we feel about 13..Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4

[compact gale]

Is 12 Ne5 an anti-candidate? 12 Ne5 Qc7 13 Qe2 c5. Now what?

[inland depot]

It has already been said

[compact gale]

Looks fine to me

[river prawn]

15..Nf6 where do we put the rook

[compact gale]

Re3 ?

[river prawn]

i think either e3 or e2 is good

e1 is probably fine too

the position is too simple to really matter that much

[compact gale]

What about 12 Qe2 Qc7 33 Ne4 Nxe4 14 Qxe4 ?

or 12 Qe2 Qc7 13 c4 c5

[river prawn]

I was looking at the line with the move order 12.c4 Qc7 13.Qe2 c5, but I think we can play either 14.Rad1 or 14.dxc5

[compact gale]

Any objections to closing the moves to consider poll now?

And replacing it with the real binding single vote poll?

We learned that our candidates are Ne4 (18), c4 (14), Ne5 (10) and Qe2 (8). Trailing was c3 (4).

Closing that poll now

[compact gale]

I prefer 14 Rad1

[river prawn]

That feels simpler

I just think if we play 12.Ne4, tons of people will vote for 13.Nxf6+

[compact gale]

They will also like a plan with c4 and an admonition about trading good knights to help Gotham end up with an improved knight (Nd7)

[river prawn]

Functionally, 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Nxf6+ Nxf6 is trading our g3 knight for the d7 knight, and I don’t see much point

[proud pecan]

I don’t wanna trade the bishops I wanna play c4 🫠

[vagrant pelican]

We held off trading bishops for 3 whole moves. No body expected that

[outer lance]

Are we planning on pushing something similar to the hypothetical line below, if 12.c4 wins the poll for us ? :

... 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.c4 Qc7 13.c5 Bxg3 14.hxg3 Nd5 15.Qc2 b6 16.Bd2 a5 17.cxb6 Qxb6 18.b3 Qb5 19.a4 Qb7 ...

. If yes, and we think it will be easy to convince The World to play 13. c5, then I will keep my vote as 12. c4 in the Discord poll.
. If yes, but we think it will be hard to convince The World to play 13. c5, then I will probably change my vote to 12. Qe2.
. If no, then I will also change my vote to 12. Qe2.

. I know that even though they are diminishing, there are still some other opening lines to follow, so don't mind if we aim for any other solid looking lines.

. Also, sorry if this possible line has already been shown in previous posts, as I had 50+ messages to look at today and I didn't notice it yet.

[river prawn]

I support 12.c4 Qc7 13.Qe2

Also, black is more likely to play 13..Bf4 over 13..Bxg3

I’m not worried about playing 13.c5, I’m worried about the moves after that

I think we should stick to something simple like 12.c4 Qc7 13.Qe2 Rfe8 14.Rad1

The problem is after 14..c5 15.dxc5 Bxc5 I don’t know what to do then

[outer lance]

Yes, I think those moves will give The World more options.
I probably won't change my vote in the Poll now.

[river prawn]

I hope someone can come up with a middlegame plan after 15..Bxc5 because I’m out of ideas

Our pieces are well placed, 16.Ne4 does nothing

Oh

16.Ne5? Nxe5 17.Qxe5 Bxf2+!

Yeah that’s a problem

18.Kf1 Bxg3 19.Qxg3 Qxc4+ 20.Qd3 Qxd3+ 21.Rxd3 we’re down 2 pawns in a hopeless endgame

at some point, we're going to have to come up with an original idea

most of the ideas ive gotten have been from Masters games

because i know i don't know what im doing

but i know who does know what they're doing

[outer lance]

If we think it is going to be played eventually, then I would much rather play 13. Ne4, see possible continuation below.

... 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.c4 Qc7 13.Ne4 Nxe4 14.Rxe4 c5 15.dxc5 Bxc5 ..

. 13. Ne4 has good W/L/D %s, at least in the https://chesstempo.com/ 1900+ Elo Database.
. At the 13. Ne4 part of the continuation above, the W/L/D %s are: 33.33 / 66.66 / 0
. Only 3 games have been played according to the above database, so not much to go on to give us an idea of how good this line is for us.

[river prawn]

im not worried about 16.Ne5 being played

I’m just saying that a seemingly reasonable move loses

[river prawn]

I’m running a database check on recent games in the position after 12.c4 Qc7, 30k games and only the one game I already mentioned with 13.c5 from October 2023

40k

45k, it’s slowing down for some reason

[river prawn]

62.5k

At least I found another game where black castled queenside after Bxg6 and got annihilated

This one was even more crushing

[river prawn]

70k, still nothing new

[river prawn]

The Lichess Masters Database has 18 games with 13.Ne4. White is 2-0-16

And in the other 16 games where white played something other than 13.Ne4, white is 2-0-14

Total: 4-0-30, No losses

[vagrant pelican]

Currently, 12 c4 is leading in the polls. I kind of agree with what Coach Dane has said earlier today. Before making a committal pawn move, we should consider Ne4. If mainly the concern is that the world will exchange the knight, then let’s bring awareness around it. Look, we held off exchanging light bishops for 3 moves

We’ll have a chance to play c4 in the next turn

Given the popularity of 11 Ne5 currently, I think 12 Ne5 will be popular as well and we’ll get into a three way split between c4, Ne4 and Ne5

[compact gale]

12 Ne4 Be7 13 c4 is a better c4.

We don't trade, he does and we exchange bishops on e7.

[river prawn]

105k games, found one with 12.c4 Be7

in that game, white went Qc2, Rad1, etc.

[river prawn]

right, because 13..Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Nxf2? doesn't work because of 15.Bxd8 Nxd1 16.Be7 Rfe8 17.Ba3!, trapping the knight.
That's a cool tactic

[compact gale]

I actually didn't check 14 .. Nxf2

I must have intuited it ...

[river prawn]

lol

point is, black has to play 14..Qxe7

I also changed my mind on move 12

12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 is basically like winning a tempo

black is playing Be7 instead of Qc7

[compact gale]

Yes

[river prawn]

okay what is the deal with people playing h4 in these lines

this is the second game ive seen with that

white just randomly plays h4, no h5, just h4

i feel like if that's just luft, then h3 is better

i mean in one of these games white played Bc1

we are dealing with weird stuff

either 12.c4 or 12.Ne4 is good

just not 12.Ne5

I'm changing my vote to "undecided"

[compact gale]

12 Ne5 fails to .. Qc7 13 Qe2 c5 ?

What h4?

[river prawn]

Not really fails per se, but the problem is we have to defend with 14.c3 and then we lose the d5 square

[river prawn]

On like move 20 or something

Seemingly random

Not indicative of a kingside attack

[compact gale]

h4 may be defensive against g5 etc.

[vagrant pelican]

12 c4 voters please check this line out.
@outer lance
@pastel onyx
@pale rover
@outer pecan
@faint gorge
@wise lotus
@novel hamlet
@merry hull

[novel hamlet]

💔

[wise lotus]

stop pinging me, thanks. i can check it if i want to

[vagrant pelican]

If he still plays 12… Qc7?

[river prawn]

12.Ne4 Qc7 13.Nxd6 we’ll take the bishop pair

gn

[pale rover]

hmm

looks intereesting

I would vouch for it

[vagrant pelican]

Apologies. Will try to keep the pings to a minimum.

Our polling here guides our recommendation and from the prior experience of Magnus vs World game, our recommendation gets taken more seriously as we go deeper into the game. Thank you for participating and helping us make strong recommendations

[tender grove]

im happy with Ne4

[tender grove]

was looking at 16…Nxb2 in this line but it doesn’t work out for black

[vagrant pelican]

Join The World Team for full access to all the GothamChess channels by going to #info-vs-theworld, scrolling to the section on joining and tapping the !! emoji with over 400 count. Now you are on the World Team too. It gives you the role.

[tender grove]

c4 is also fine tho

[tender grove]

I got rid of the role cuz the color is disgusting

if you have a way of using this color with that role I would consider it

[tender grove]

I always feel bad about my daily/vote analysis cuz it feels so lacking compared to what I know I can do otb

it’s just so different idk

[azure beacon]

If the expecting line is 11.Bxg6 hxg6, then i'd try 12.c4.
If GothamChess plays 12...c5, my first though would be to push our d pawn : 13.d5 exd5 and 14.cxd5, with dreamt pass pawn on d5. But engines arn't as happy as i am !
It's not at all a forced line, but can you explain us what concept do i miss, please ?

[tender grove]

maybe I don’t care enough

c5 don’t we just play Ne4

I was looking at Be7 first lines with …c5 but I couldn’t get them to work for black

[pastel onyx]

yeah i saw that but i'm just not sure he'll play Be7 though

[pearl rover]

Can someone summarize all the lines for c4 (and Ne4)? I’d like to check them before casting my vote.

[vagrant pelican]

What do you think he’ll play then?

[vagrant pelican]

Do we have to take the bishop or can we still play 13 c4?

[vagrant pelican]

The point is we can still most likely play c4 after playing Ne4

12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 is basically like winning a tempo against the bishop

[pastel onyx]

Bb4, attacking the rook

which we'd then probably just block w the pawn but yk

[vagrant pelican]

We are split 9-9 in the poll as of now. Our recommendation needs to be published in the next 3 hours. If the poll is tied, we have the provision of using Coach Dane’s recommendation (Ne4) as a tie breaker

[vagrant pelican]

He won’t play that. Coach Dane covered that in his commentary

[pastel onyx]

i also like the idea of going c5 if we play c4 first

and keeping the knight there

[pastel onyx]

i feel like he might play it to make us play c3

i'll def think about it more tho, but that's what i got rn

[river prawn]

I mean we don’t have to take it, but bishops are better than knights

[pastel onyx]

well, in a position with almost all pieces minus a bishop/knight and a pawn, i feel like the knight is more worthwhile rn

[river prawn]

Yeah but the position won’t stay like that

[pastel onyx]

fair, but he could capitalize on our momentary weakness to gain an advantage

[river prawn]

Hard to say

[pastel onyx]

regardless, i don't think it's a bad move, it's definitely viable

[river prawn]

I support 12.c4, because it transposes back to theory after 12..Qc7

[pastel onyx]

yeah i am also fearing 12..Qc7 after we go 12.Ne4

c4 seems like a good off-theory move that stays viable i'm dumb and misread lmao

[river prawn]

No, 12.c4 is on-theory

[vagrant pelican]

But we can still go 13 c4

[pastel onyx]

not playing 13.Nxd6 and playing 13.c4 instead would be pretty bad imo since gotham could then play 13..Nxe4 since the knight is unpinned

after 12. Ne4 Qc7 13. Nxd6 Qxd6 we could then play 14. c4?

it seems good after all those moves to me

yk what, i will change my vote to Ke4

[river prawn]

No, we play 14.c3, keeping a more solid position and using our bishop vs knight advantage

We want to open the game while keeping our pawns safe

Because an open game favors bishops

[pastel onyx]

after 14.c3, gotham will most likely play 14..c5, in which case 15.c4 seems like the best move to inconvenience black's position

so we'll most likely be playing c4 anyways, might as well do it in less moves

[vagrant pelican]

I don’t think we need to play 15 c4 then. We can let him take our pawn and we capture back with the knight. In move 15, we can develop the queen and prepare to get the other rook to the center

[pastel onyx]

we don't need to play 14.c3 either to let him take the pawn, if we play 14.c4 and he plays 14..c5 we pretty much have a free move before he can even take, but now our c pawn will be closer to the enemy position, butting off the d5 square

imo placing the pawn on c4 is better since it fights for the center and still allows us to connect it with b3, inconveniencing black's options in terms of activity

anyways, we'll see when we get there, maybe gotham won't even play 12..Qc7

[pearl rover]

It depends. For example, if we can establish a knight outpost on d6, the knight could easily become more valuable than a rook in the endgame. It would attack the pawns defending c6 and e6 and make it impossible for the rooks to defend them directly from the eighth rank. Levy would also struggle to push a pawn without creating weaknesses in his pawn chain.

But it’s not very likely that we’ll actually get the knight to d6.

[river prawn]

14.c3 c5 15.Qc2 followed by 16.Rad1 and 17.Nxd4 and the position is much more open

Oh wait

GothamChess doesn’t have to play c5

Why would you open the position when you have knight vs bishop

I think we should play 12.c4

Keep our options open

Although I will support either 12.Ne4 or 12.c4

Anything to stop 12.Ne5

You know what, I think 12.Ne4 has a better chance of winning against 12.Ne5

We need to explain why 12.Ne5 is bad

I think in future polls we should separate “Undecided” and “Don’t Care”

[pastel onyx]

yeah i also fear he might just do a developing rook move in that position

but yeah 12.Ne5 really isn't the best

12.Ne4 does position the knight closer to the centre, makes it more active and threatens the bishop immediately, while 12.c4 cuts off the d5 square and maybe even threatens d5 to open up the position. 12.Ne5 really doesn't do much here, as nothing is actually threatened

[compact gale]

About to post this in the next few minutes. Let me know any suggested changes:

Recommendations for our Move 12 response to GothamChess's expected replies to 11 Bxg6 from discussion and polling on Chess.com's Official discussion forum:

If GothamChess plays 11...hxg6, we play 12 Ne4, improving our weak knight at g3, gaining a tempo threatening Gotham’s bishop. We intend to follow up with 13 c4.  We do not intend to exchange his knight on f6, but if he initiates that, we would exchange the bishops on e7 and recapture our knight on e4 with our rook.

Please do NOT play 12. Ne5. Per Coach Dane, our Nf3 is a good knight and our Ng3 is a bad knight. By playing Ne5, we’re offering our good knight for exchange. Even if GothamChess doesn’t exchange it, he’s certain to play c5 at some point, one of the thematic pawn breaks in Caro Kann, and our Ne5 knight will lose support from d4 pawn.

You can join the Official Chess.com discussion forum to help discuss and analyze the game, vote in polls to select the best moves for The World Team, and promote them in the GothamChess game team chat!

Link: https://go.chess.com/PlayGothamDiscord

[river prawn]

I concur

You might want to add something about playing Qe2 and Rad1 after 13.c4

[compact gale]

Posting now. I can easily edit if there are any changes that would improve our recommendations

[river prawn]

Ok

[compact gale]

Yes, I'll add that

How is this:

If GothamChess plays 11...hxg6, we play 12 Ne4, improving our weak knight at g3, gaining a tempo threatening Gotham’s bishop. We intend to follow up with 13 c4. We do not intend to exchange his knight on f6, but if he initiates that, we would exchange the bishops on e7 and recapture our knight on e4 with our rook. We also intend to develop our queen to e2 connecting our rooks and then, move our queen rook to d1 just vacated by our queen.

This seems a little better to me

If GothamChess plays 11...hxg6, we play 12 Ne4, improving our weak knight at g3, gaining a tempo threatening Gotham’s bishop. We intend to follow up with 13 c4. We do not intend to exchange his knight on f6, but if he initiates that, we would exchange the bishops on e7 and recapture our knight on e4 with our rook. We also intend to develop our queen to e2 strengthening our control of the e-file while connecting our rooks, followed by moving our queen rook to the d1 square, just vacated by our queen, to support the central d-file.

[river prawn]

Looks good

[slow breach]

Great commentary, team! It looks like we're all on the same page to play 12. Ne4 on the next move. If Black responds with 12...Be7, 13. c4 appears to be a healthy move, although it has the practical downside that we must communicate early and often a big blunder warning, making sure as many people are aware of the "team risk" we're taking after 13...Nxe4. I think there will be a huge surge of tunnel vision votes for 14. Rxe4, blundering ...Bxg5. If the team feels confident that we can alert enough people to the essential "zwischenzug" 14. Bxe7 and the associated complications to handle that position correctly, then this path makes sense. Otherwise, 13. Nxf6+ is perfectly fine and may receive quite a bit of voting attention in any case.

[river prawn]

If we can’t vote for 14.Bxe7 over 14.Rxe4, we are screwed later in the game anyway

[wraith ravine]

I think people are good enough to see that the bishop is under attack

[compact gale]

Our recommendations have been posted after the archive. 11 Bsg6 is on the board and it is Gothams turn now.

[slow breach]

Not necessarily. As long as we can continue to share and explain a clear and understandable positional narrative, we definitely have our chances (no one predicted we wouldn't capture the bishop on g6 until an opportune moment - myself included 🙂 ). I definitely see the value in exploring more complicated options like 13. c4 or 13. Qe2, and am sending this message as a reminder that quite a bit of "voter outreach" will be needed to clearly share the pitfalls of these complications and how to successfully navigate the nuances required here.

[river prawn]

That's not what i said. What I said was if we can't play the only move that doesn't lose material, or if the vote is even close, we will blunder later in the game.

I agree that we can probably communicate our suggestions effectively, but if we can't, and we lose material, we are cooked

if the vote is even close, we are cooked

At least 5.Bd3 was a gambit, not just losing material for no reason

If we miss an obvious zwischenzug and lose a piece, I will vote to resign on each and every subsequent move

[slow breach]

This is all about team strategy. If we provoke a crisis, we will need to be ready to play quite accurately. I think this is definitely possible with consistent and clear communication and is simply a risk we may be willing to take as a team if we want to avoid the simplifications after 13. Nxf6+. Of course, no matter the course, there will still be critical moments for us to prepare and discuss. I am reflecting upon building more complications at this stage of the game vs simplifying the game to create a more clear, understandable positional narrative. There are definite pros and cons to each approach, so it is a good strategy to discuss as a team.

Of course, I am getting ahead of myself. 12. Ne4 will still be an important push we all need to make, as the "floating" 12. Ne5 is very much in the air and ready to be played. 🙂

[river prawn]

I mean 12.Ne5 isn’t terrible, but 12.Ne4 is simple and strong. Also, 12.Ne4 is the most common move in online games

[compact gale]

Yes, we can!

[inner iron]

Did Levy just move hxg6?...

[river prawn]

yes

oh god Ne5 is leading

it doesn't look good

Bxf6 has 14%

it will be close

vote 12.Ne4 to stop 12.Ne5

the margin is 10-15 votes

less than 10 now

it will likely stay close

[pearl rover]

omg. This feels like voting in Eurovision.

[river prawn]

14 votes

it's staying close

13% for Bxf6 lol

that's why this is close

if it reaches 100 votes, im calling it over unless there's botting

1 vote

405-404

wow

[wraith ravine]

my god it's razor thin

pulling ahead with 644-634 now

ooh 15 vote gap

getting higher

[river prawn]

Ne5 was leading by 10-20 votes earlier

this is a good sign

the margin will be 100 by the end of the vote at this rate

way too close for comfort

Bxf6 is saving us rn

[compact gale]

Ne4 up by 70 votes

We really should warn against Bxf6, right?

[river prawn]

No

it won't win

I mean warn about it in the future, but right now we need to be anti-Ne5

[inner iron]

I don't think so... The only players that are voting for Bxf6 either aren't looking at db openings or haven't listened to the chat... If we warn them about playing Bxf6, they could turn around and vote for Ne5 instead which is what we don't want.

[river prawn]

correct

a vote for Bxf6 is a vote for Ne4

the enemy of my enemy is my friend

don't mention Bxf6

[compact gale]

Ummm OK. But we usually would warn them in advance away from tempting bad moves. Bxf6 looks worse than Ne5.

[river prawn]

in an ideal situation yes

but this is not an ideal situation

[compact gale]

How does black recapture? 12 .. Nxf6, Qxf6, gxf6 ?

[river prawn]

doesn't matter

look, we want to avoid Bxf6 voters switching to Ne5

[compact gale]

12 Bxf6 gxf6! looks scary good for Gotham, right?

[river prawn]

idk

don't mention Bxf6

[compact gale]

OK, OK

[river prawn]

not until the margin increases

I mean yeah, most Bxf6 voters probably aren't reading the chat

but this is way too close to be taking chances like that

[compact gale]

94 vote lead now

[river prawn]

Remember, 5.Nf3 was leading by 400 votes and it came down to 55

so I'm not unclenching until we reach 500, which probably won't happen at all

[compact gale]

That was fake just created accounts, which as far as I know could happen again.

110 vote lead

[river prawn]

exactly

[slow breach]

Quite an exciting vote! Do clarify, is the team preparing to generally play 13. c4 if we get 12. Ne4 across the finish line?

[river prawn]

we need a poll

we can worry about that once the margin gets less close

[slow breach]

ok - just a reminder that with this type of vote so close, i think the earlier the team gets on the same page and communicates with very clear explanations and visuals the better.

[river prawn]

we should plan for both 12.Ne4 and 12.Ne5

just like with 5.Ng3 and 5.Bd3

I think 12.Ne4 should win, but it's way too close

[compact gale]

That was the description of our plan

[slow breach]

Great! If everyone is on the same page with that, I highly recommend to share several examples and explain the strategy to get people "primed" for this plan, as I think there will be quite a bit of chaotic candidate moves floating in the air after this vote.

[river prawn]

no, there will be one anti-candidate move

13.Nxf6+

we need to stop that from winning

look at how many people voted 12.Bxf6

[compact gale]

Which we coulda/woulda/shoulda have warned about. Yes, I know what you will say.

12 Bxf6 is quite bad. Worse than Ne5.

[river prawn]

i think we can start warning about it now

help people avoid voting for 13.Nxf6+ or 13.Bxf6

[compact gale]

I was referring to warning people off of Bxf6 for move 12

[river prawn]

yes

[compact gale]

We are at 124 lead for Ne4 (4%). Who is comfortable to add 12 Bxf6 to our do not play warning?

Or not comfortable

[river prawn]

yes

im posting too

[tender grove]

it’s fine people aren’t bad enough to vote for such an obviously bad move right

[river prawn]

yes, which is why it's in third

[tender grove]

perfect

I expect to see like 45% Ne4 40% c4 5% Bxf6 5% Ne5 5% other stuff when I look

[compact gale]

Don't look now!

[tender grove]

too late

wtf are these votes

i cant believe 1000 people are all using keyboard (notation) to make their moves and slipped off the 4 key to hit the 5 key

[compact gale]

How is this warning:

Please do NOT play 12. Bxf6. Per Coach Dane, Mistake #1 Capturing for the sake of capturing applies here.  Worse than that, Gotham actually improves his position with gxf6!

[tender grove]

it’s not winning today, id just warn against it and Nxf6 next turn

[compact gale]

It they see it warned against now, they'll be more cautions about it on move 13

I'm posting the warning about Bxf6 unless there are objections.

[tender grove]

go for it

[compact gale]

Couldn't hold it back! Posted. Ne4 leads by 113.

Everyone , please keep pushing Ne4 in Gotham Team chat.

The lead is not increasing currently

[river prawn]

It’s not decreasing though

Moves to prep for if 12.Ne4 wins:
12..Be7
12..Qc7

[pale rover]

rn its all ne4 and ne5

[outer lance]

I had 100+ posts to look at so you may have already considered this. but because the leaders are still pretty close, we probably need to prepare polls for 12. Ne4, and also 12. Ne5.

[pale rover]

bxf6 shouldnt be too bad atm

[river prawn]

Moves to prep for if 12.Ne5 wins 💀
12..Qc7
12..Be7
12..Qb6

12.Ne4 Qc7 13.Nxd6 is a clear best move, trading a knight for a bishop
12.Ne4 Be7 13.Qe2 continues development

[pale rover]

really

not c4

?

[river prawn]

Woops wrong line

Yeah 12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4

[outer lance]

I know we shouldn't plan too far ahead in these types of games. but I think our position would be nice and solid looking if we end up following one of these two lines, if 12. Ne4 wins the vote on chess.com:

... 12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4 Rfd8 16.Qe2 Nf6 17.Re5 Qc7 18.h4 ...

... 12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4 Rfd8 16.Qe2 Nf6 17.Re5 Qc7 18.Re1 ...

. I think the line I showed to 18. h4 is less likely to be played, mainly based on previous move struggles by us to get h4 on the board.

If 12. Ne5 is played, then I think the three lines below are probably good against 12. Ne5 Qc7:

... 12.Ne5 Qc7 13.Nxd7 Nxd7 14.c3 ...

... 12.Ne5 Qc7 13.Nxd7 Qxd7 14.c3 ...

... 12.Ne5 Qc7 13.Qe2 c5 14.c3 ...

. I could find no Master level games in the databases I am using for these lines ATM, and that is the main reason why the continuations stops at 14. c3.
. This is how I would want to play the position, if I was forced to play on from 12. Ne5.
. There may be other good lines for us if 12.Ne5 is played, but I haven't looked very hard for other moves yet.

. Going by the small but steady increase, it looks' like 12. Ne4 should win here over 12. Ne5.

[river prawn]

That’s because both Masters games went 12.Ne5 Qc7 13.Qe2 Rfe8

The margin is up to 195, not great, not terrible

[outer lance]

TY, don't know why I didn't notice it before.

I guess I wouldn't mind seeing something like this against 12. Ne5 Qc7:
... 12.Ne5 Qc7 13.Qe2 Rfe8 14.Rad1 c5 15.Nxd7 Nxd7 16.dxc5 Nxc5 17.c3 Rac8 18.Qd2 Bxg3 19.hxg3 a6 ...

[river prawn]

Not great, not terrible

But 12.Ne4 is better

I just don’t know if 13.c4 can get votes

We gotta start telling people not to play 13.Nxf6+

[tender grove]

I have a bad feeling about next turn

[river prawn]

the "capture for no good reason" vote will be split between Bxf6 and Nxf6+

[tender grove]

hmmm maybe

[river prawn]

i still think Nxf6+ wins

this was the main reason I wanted 12.c4

13.c4 is literally 4% on lichess

we are cooked

[gusty pulsar]

My first thoughts were Ne4 to centralize and fork with the knight, then c4 to take some space in the center and then a4 to work to develop the rook

[river prawn]

we were right to support Ne4

i think we made 2% vote for Ne4

if we supported c4 this would be basically tied

but now we're stuck playing 13.Nxf6+

it won't even be close

people are going to throw it in no matter what

[river prawn]

i mean we're cooked

we are so cooked

[compact gale]

After 12 .. Be7?

[river prawn]

yes

there is absolutely no way 13.Nxf6+ doesn't win

no matter how much we tell people not to vote for it

[compact gale]

Let's see if we can scare them with 13 .. gxf6! This actually allows Levy to play Kg7 and Rh8 punishing using the h-file we opened up.

[river prawn]

possible moves after 12.Ne4 Qc7
13.Nxf6+
13.Bxf6
13.Ne5
13.c4
13.c3

[compact gale]

That really looks strong for Levy, not something we want to face. I think we can sell this.

[river prawn]

no, because 14.Bh6

[river prawn]

no

we shouldn't tell people not to play 13.Nxf6+ because of some random move

we should tell them not to trade for no reason

Mistake Number One by Coach Dane

just explain that our knight is perfectly fine on e4 and we shouldn't trade it on f6

it's not getting in the way of development like our d3 bishop

we need to tell people to play c4, Qe2, Rad1

standard development

[compact gale]

Not random. This the most powerful way to dissuade, b/c it really is good for Levy. The Bh6 will be exchanged after Bf8.

We can use both reasons. It certainly does not benefit us

[river prawn]

actually, i take that back, that's not actually as good as i thought it was because we don't really have a follow up

i mean 13.Nxf6+ is okay

but we should play 13.c4 and finish developing

Qe2, Rad1

if 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4 Nf6, just 16.Re3 and still play Qe2 and Rd1

[river prawn]

Once the d-file opens with c5 dxc5, we trade rooks and queens and use our superior pawn structure in a knight endgame

[pale rover]

i agree w/lily here

[river prawn]

The margin has increased to 250

I think we’re safe here

[river prawn]

The problem is GothamChess doesn’t have to open the d-file

[compact gale]

Hey @bronze meteor what is your Other move in the Ne4 poll?

Hey @empty idol what is your Other move in the Ne4 poll?

[empty idol]

Feel like we should have an idea of what to do if Nb6 is played

[zinc mauve]

I feel like 12. Ne4 Bc7 since Be7 would only block the queen and rook’s potential column

[compact gale]

I'll assign an emoji for it and let you know so you can vote for it

[river prawn]

Just take the bishop

[compact gale]

@empty idol 🏇 = Nb6

[river prawn]

The queen is going to c7 to break the pin, putting the bishop on c7 would block black’s pieces even more

[empty idol]

Do we trade bishop for knight after queen takes because then I think all we really did is help him get his queen to a more active position…

[river prawn]

No

If the bishop doesn’t move from d6, we play Nxd6

Yes, black’s queen gets active, but we have bishop for knight

And that’s better long-term

Black can’t really do much with a queen on d6 that he couldn’t do with a queen on c7, plus the queen will probably have to go to c7 anyway when the rooks face off against each other on the d-file

[vagrant pelican]

I am kind of learning Caro Kann opening with this game. I read in one of the posts that Knight is an important piece (may be more important) in Caro Kann. Of course, bishop becomes more important as position opens up

[river prawn]

Wrong answers

On the poll

@compact gale

You need to delete it and remake it completely

You put the answers for the last poll on this poll

[empty idol]

I guess my only real worry is that we’ll get a position where we’re unsure on the best move since I couldn’t think of anything but I suppose thats why there’s a whole discord section for this XD

[pastel onyx]

@compact gale wrong answers on the poll lmao

[compact gale]

Yep, major oops

[pastel onyx]

but mistakes happen, dw, we're only human

[proud pecan]

Is Bb8 and Qc7 an issue here 🫠

[compact gale]

After 12 Ne4 Be7, what do we play? What moves to consider for our poll?
c4, Qe2, c3, Nxf6+, Bxf6 .... ?

[tender grove]

with how some of our team has been voting maybe

if we use our eyes before making moves probably not though

[proud pecan]

im hoping as the game goes on we wise up

[tender grove]

yeah that would be ideal, and it’s possible if we have more and more people that can’t read (I assume they can’t read cuz they aren’t reading chat) stop voting

[compact gale]

g3 seems to stop that threat cold

[tender grove]

are we voting on …Qc7

seems pretty clear cut that we just grab d6 right

[proud pecan]

I was referring to Gotham of ur asking bout that

[tender grove]

I meant in #next-move-polls

[proud pecan]

All g just wanted to be sure I wasn’t confusing anyone

[compact gale]

Yes, we will do a Qc7 poll soon

[river prawn]

Tasty bishop

Nom

[proud pecan]

hopefully he just takes our knight cracks under the pressure

[river prawn]

💀

[river prawn]

13.Nxf6+ is going to win because people like capturing too much

[compact gale]

Is Bxf6 our best? Probably not due to gxf6. What is our best? c4? Why?

[river prawn]

c4, because it helps control the center and allows us to respond to c5 with d5 in some lines

Qe2 is also good, but it has no chance of winning

[compact gale]

We can sell that. Warn about why Nxf6 (or Bxf6) is bad.

[river prawn]

barely got 1% this past vote

c4 was at a nice 11%

not only is it a good idea, it's the best chance we have of stopping Nxf6+ and Bxf6

[compact gale]

Yes

[river prawn]

this is about tactical voting

i favored 12.c4 but 12.Ne4 was needed to stop 12.Ne5

[compact gale]

Pretty big swing in our future if you ask me

[river prawn]

and based on voting on this vote, 13.c4 is the best chance we have

but it won't be enough

im calling it right now

13.Nxf6+ will win by 5-10%

[compact gale]

You might be right, you might not be.

If we don't sell c4, the game turns in Gotham's favor, I believe.

For certain

[river prawn]

not exactly

Nxf6+ isn't terrible

but it would show we're not in control

just like how we couldn't get 6.h4 or 7.h4 passed

this is our test

[compact gale]

Capturing on is making Mistake # 1

It's pretty terrible.

[river prawn]

it's not about the move itself

it's about showing we're in control

like on this move with 12.Ne4 leading over 12.Ne5

if we can't stop 13.Nxf6+ or 13.Bxf6 from winning, we are cooked later in the game

[compact gale]

Funny that you bring that up. That is looking tempting, a g3 h4 structure to suppress his doubled pawns and our king is quite safe.

So don't accept that fate.

[river prawn]

i don't care about king safety

i care about making anti-positional moves and slowly getting crushed

[compact gale]

I would like to talk with Coach Dane about this tomorrow.

[river prawn]

13.Qe2 has no chance of winning, it doesn't matter if we support it

[compact gale]

Which move are you calling anti-positional?

[river prawn]

the problem i have with this server is too many people are refusing to consider tactical voting

[river prawn]

im talking in moves 20-30

future moves

people are like "let's vote for what we agreed to vote for" but we can make a difference in a close vote. If we all agreed to vote for 12.c4, we would be in a difficult spot right now

There has yet to be a close 3-way race

and in every move where the race has been close, it has been clear which 2 moves will be close within the first 5 minutes of voting

look, id like to vote for the move that i think is best, but this isn't chess, this is group psychology

im not going to vote for the move in third place

obviously if the vote isn't close, vote your conscience

but we are the swing voters

we can decide the outcome of a close race

[compact gale]

We voted tactically in past games when a bad move was winning. We did that after the evidence was manifesting. Don't do that in advance. If we throw away our best chances because we worry that we can't sell them, we gradually throw the game to our opponent.

[river prawn]

13.c4 is good

13.Qe2 has no chance of winning

[river prawn]

best chances? There are no winning chances in this position, we threw them away when we refused to play 6.h4 or 7.h4

okay maybe there are miniscule winning chances in a knight endgame due to our better pawn structure

[compact gale]

In the Magnus game, the combination that gave us equality and the attack that resulted in perpetual check were not easy to sell, but we and good players in the team chat were able to do it

[river prawn]

that only worked because the low Elo players left, but this time, when the opponent is GothamChess, the low Elo players are not leaving. Look at how many people are voting for Bxf6, the low Elo players are still here.

honestly

not playing 6.h4 or 7.h4 was probably a good thing

there's no way we would have played the next 5 moves correctly

much less an aggressive tactical position with opposite side castling

[compact gale]

Not so, the distribution of chess strength was still significantly weighted towards the less experienced players.

One thing that was successful with less experienced players was memes. One thing I was pretty darn impressed with, in this game, was that nicely done poster explaining why Ne4 was good.

[river prawn]

There’s just one problem with it

It says “if GothamChess exchanges on f6”

It should be e4

Since that’s if Nxe4

[compact gale]

Yes, if we can nurse a passer on the queen-side. I would rather be the side pressing for the win, instead of best case holding the draw

[river prawn]

I don’t trust our endgame play

At that point I would just offer the draw

I’m here to have fun

I will play as long as the game is fun

That means if we blunder a piece, I will quit

[compact gale]

We are not big enough to swing the vote with just our votes. It is our influence and earned respect that can do that. It's not perfect, sometimes we can't get the best move through and must throw our support to the strongest move with a chance.

[river prawn]

That’s not what “swing voters” means

Swing voters wouldn’t have helped McCain in 2008 or Mondale in 1984, just like how we couldn’t make 6.h4 or 7.h4 win, but in a close vote, we can make a difference

[compact gale]

Yes, but our role is to vote early as possible to obtain the initial lead. If it's a good move we can let it be or even support it with our work in the team chat, possibly updating our recommendation. If it's bad, we explain why and organize against it identifying the alternate we think has the best chance.

[river prawn]

why would the initial lead matter if it's a closed vote

i've yet to see a single vote shift more than 2% after the first 10 minutes

[compact gale]

That's the thing, I thought the lead wouldn't matter so much in closed poll. But it isn't really closed, is it? The information is leaked almost instantly. Hence the early lead still matters. Maybe if the poll count was not released until the end of our turn, so nobody knows the count, and we can only use the chat to guess how it might be going.

[river prawn]

idk

[compact gale]

Perfect coda to our chat! 😉

[river prawn]

gn

[compact gale]

gn

[pearl rover]

I’ll support you if you can compile all the analyzed lines into one readable document — a Lichess study, for example. Right now everything’s just scattered across Discord.

[river prawn]

This isn’t about analysis

This is about looking at the vote totals and voting for the better of the two moves with a good chance of winning

And usually it’s pretty obvious

[pearl rover]

I understand, but it’s also that the higher-rated voters aren’t really considering the analyzed lines — they’re just throwing out moves they think are best, without asking whether they’re actually humanly playable. In online rapid games, it’s uncommon to think positionally or play for a favorable endgame — at least, not in a truly human way.

[river prawn]

Well we can’t very well play tactically, we threw out that possibility a long time ago

[river prawn]

That’s not entirely true, I wanted to play 12.c4 Qc7 13.c5!?, but that’s not humanly playable

And I correctly recognized 12.Ne5 as an anti-candidate move

And a popular one

And right now I’m saying we need to stop 13.Nxf6+ and 13.Bxf6

And 13.Qe2 is too confusing

13.c4 is simple and strong

Hopefully GothamChess will play 13..Nxe4 and then we don’t have to worry about low Elo players voting for a random capture

[pearl rover]

To clarify, I wasn’t talking about you.

[river prawn]

i know

[faint gorge]

so you voted for 12.c4?

i voted for that one too, but leading vote was Ne4, which also makes sense

forcing Gotham's to retreat his bishop to e7

[proud pecan]

we do have to go c4 eventualy

our d pawn doesn't have hes friend

[vagrant pelican]

The idea of this group is to discuss the next moves early, poll on it internally and then vote as a group based our polling result. Of course, no body can force anyone but in a close race, our group’s vote matters. In this round, we correctly predicted that Ne5 will be voted high and we needed Ne4 to win, even though some of us wanted c4. If we don’t vote together as a group, somewhere down the line, a bad move might win. So I would really encourage us to play as a group and watch out for the announcement in #our-turn

[pearl rover]

Is there a reason why Levy cannot play Bc7?

[vagrant pelican]

But at least, people are then reading the chat. That’s what we wanted from a closed poll right?
In open poll, remember that the leader in initial few minutes would just keep growing in vote share.

In closed poll, if the vote % difference remains constant, that means the distribution of the incremental votes is almost similar to what’s been voted already. given how we know in open poll, the leader keeps growing, of all the people read the chat and knew who the leader was, we would have expected the same outcome.

[outer lance]

It says that there are 100+ messages new messages since I last went onto Discord, and I haven't read them to see if this has already been mentioned.

Anyway, since I couldn't see a poll for them, are we happy to play c4 against most other Bishop moves by Black?

. For us It looks' like a solid move against most of the safe Bishop moves for Black.
. Only exception I can see so far is if 12. Bb4 by Black, then 13. c3, Re2, Re3, or either N back to d2, all look ok for us.
. As some others may have already mentioned, 12. Be7 looks' like the most logical B move to me.

[vagrant pelican]

But i think at least some people are reading the chat - because they can’t see the arrows and the leader immediately- and instead of making their bullet move, either thinking a bit more, or looking for help in the chat and that’s helping a bit. But not as many people are reading the chat as I would like

We discussed 12… Bb4 in the mods thread but didn’t end up creating a poll for it. It is highly unlikely to be played. All the moves you mentioned look okay but not sure what’s the best. Let me create a poll

[outer lance]

Bc7 doesn't look like a mistake or worse, but I still think Be7 is much more likely to be played by Black here.
Also, I think it is better for Black to get their Queen out that way later on, probably something like Qc7 or Qb6 in the near future.

[vagrant pelican]

It is more commonly played than I thought it would. I can create a poll for that as well. What are our options against it? Other than c4 ofc

[outer lance]

Bb4 just looks' like a probing move to me.
If he played that and we don't blunder our Rook, he would probably consider playing 13. Be7
IMO, It doesn't hurt or help Black too much, but I think 12. Be7 is better for him?

[vagrant pelican]

Of course

Candidate moves against 12… Bc7?

[faint gorge]

I didnt oppose Ne4 also

But if i don't vote the recommending move by the team would I get kicked out

Not expected to be that reaction lol

[vagrant pelican]

No. But it’s best to stick together. Otherwise, what’s the point of this group

[faint gorge]

But i didnt say oh so you should vote c4

I just saying both are good

You should accept opposing ideas from the team but not forcing everyone to vote for the move

[vagrant pelican]

You can convince others to vote for the move you think it’s the best when the polls are open. We did that with Ne4 yesterday

[vagrant pelican]

Yes of course. That’s what we do when we are polling. We are actively debating here. Trying to find the best move

[faint gorge]

You indicate that i should follow the team move order by voting 12. Ne4 basically right

[vagrant pelican]

But once the poll results are final, we are only requesting (not forcing), we vote as per our polls

[faint gorge]

Im just a bad guy. I will consider yalls analysis but i will decide on my own. Of course the teams contribution should not be ignored

[vagrant pelican]

After our polls are finalized. But you can still choose to vote whatever you feel like

[faint gorge]

I can compare the teams idea to my ideas then i will vote at my own. Didnt deny the team at all

2. My vote doesnt change anything. Ne4 leads 30%

C4 is 7

If my vote cause 1000 votes ofc you need to be worried

But thats not lol

[outer lance]

Besides that, I would consider playing 13. :

. Qe2, Qd2, or Qd3, all safe looking Q moves that seem like they improve our position a bit to me and follows a good principle of, connected Rooks are happy Rooks.
. Even starting a K side pawn march / attack looks' ok, starting with either g3 or h4
. Maybe c3 is ok too, as it gives us a nice looking pawn structure.

. Possibly some other candidate moves I have missed for us to look at too ?

[vagrant pelican]

So here’s the thing. 12 Ne4 and c4 are both good moves and we debated on it yesterday a lot. Initially, we were split right in the middle in our polls. If everyone ended up actually voting on chesscom in the same proportion, then Ne5 would win. That’s the votechess game we’re playing

[faint gorge]

Thats some flaws. I did not take part in yesterday debate, so i should not be restricted

I mean yea they can vote Ne4

[vagrant pelican]

Again, you’re not restricted in any way

[faint gorge]

But in evey team every country, one must admit theres minorities.

[vagrant pelican]

The idea is to discuss moves before it’s our turn

[faint gorge]

Im saying your reaction a bit ovvereacted, nothing too bad

I say c4 Ne4 good but didnt take part in debate so you say i should vote Ne4

Which is okay

[vagrant pelican]

Right now, as you said, it doesn’t matter because the winner is almost decided

[faint gorge]

But im a bad guy unfortunately

[vagrant pelican]

I apologize. I didn’t realize you didn’t participate in the discussion yesterday

[faint gorge]

Whats worse is Ne5 issue

It almost beat Ne4

We shouldve focus on that

[vagrant pelican]

Exactly!

We anticipated this and that’s why wanted to be on same page and promote the best move that can win

[outer lance]

As much as possible we need to stick together in those situations, because in the near future an even worse looking move could be the vote leader, or close second.

[faint gorge]

Oh i get it. Now i know why mb guys

See ya

[pearl rover]

13.c4 -- you might be able to hold onto the extra pawn if 13...c5 14.dxc5 is played, but I’m not sure.
13.Ne5 -- you give up a pawn but win it back tactically, ending up in a sharp, dynamic endgame.
13. c3 -- simple and solid.
13 Nxf6+ -- Doesn’t spark joy, but it’s maybe playable.

But I am not sure

[vagrant pelican]

Poll is up. I didn’t add any knight moves in the poll. If you want to vote for it, i can add an emoji

[pearl rover]

I wouldn’t vote for it, but we should still look at it, the world might play it.

12 Ne4 Qc7 13 Qd2 -- extra control on the dark squares

[slow breach]

Very tight vote! If 12. Ne4 gets across the finish line, do we have a clear explanation behind the logic of c2-c4 and how we might handle these parallel pawns on d4 and c4? I think 13. Nxf6+ is a perfectly reasonable move to keep the game in calmer waters and keeping the pawn on c2 does offer some flexibility - so definitely not a line I would be disappointed to see, but am happy to support the enthusiasm of the team to keep it a bit more complicated. I think the only "anti-candidate" move is 13. Bxf6?, which is already gaining a bit of attention already.

Perhaps after 12...Be7, we can mention: what does Levy want to play next? 13...Nd5 helps him trade bishops and improve the position of his knight. Can we prevent this idea? 13. c4 discourages ...Nd5 while grabbing space on the queenside and center. (I'm still a bit uneasy about us comfortably handling the parallel c4-d4 structure, but the team has made it through some voting adventures already and is mostly doing pretty well with everyone's effort focusing on respectful, clear, consistent and...repetitive(!) communication.

"Explain early and often." 🙂

[river prawn]

I think we should portray Nxf6+ as an anti-candidate move

We can make another poster, something like “You wouldn’t move a knight to the center just to trade it off”

[slow breach]

I understand you do not like Nxf6+ and that it may feel too simplified for the tastes of some on the team. Totally get that - and although I think it's quite reasonable and wouldn't mind seeing it on the board, especially coupled with reserving the right to play c2-c3, I'm on board with the team if we want to push for a bit more ambitious of an approach despite my own reservations. Taking the knights off g3 and d7, in effect, is not without purpose. The knight on g3 is quite misplaced, but the knight on d7 helps support potential ...c5 and ...e5 breaks. I do think playing with the c3-d4 structure will be a bit more clear and accessible for the team, but again, this is a matter of taste. I do not, however, see any reason why we would play 13. Bxf6, surrendering our bishop without any clear point. If our point is that c4 is more ambitious and restricts Levy's ability to play ...Nd5, I think that can be a sellable point. We then would want to really clearly flesh out what our next steps will be to "build" our position.

[humble horizon]

why are people voting Ne5 lol, what offering to swap the knight for the bishop for some reason?

[river prawn]

12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4 Nf6 16.Re3 Qc7 17.Qe2 Rfd8 18.Rd1 c5 19.Red3, with solid control over the d-file

[river prawn]

I’m more concerned about people voting for Bxf6

[compact gale]

I am quite concerned that either move 13 capture on f6 allows Gotham to recapture with that g pawn. That weird structure is much better for him and the game now tilts towards Gotham.

It also supports an e5 pawn break.

[river prawn]

gxf6 is not going to be played, but make it seem like it will to discourage people from playing Nxf6+

[compact gale]

Now you are predicting what Gotham will and won't play? You are underestimating 13 .. gxf6!

Why do you think he wont play that?

[compact gale]

Of the two move 13 captures on f6 (assuming 12 Be7), Nxf6 is better than Bxf6 (assuming he plays gxf6). Both c4 or Qe2 are better IMO. I like c4 over Qe2. I believe our poll shows that as well.

[pearl rover]

It’s a thematic move in the London System, so people love putting their knights on e5.

[slow breach]

Our next move will be quite critical. I think it's quite likely Levy will play 12...Be7 in response to 12. Ne4. I would suggest deciding as a team pretty quickly what to unite around if we want to avoid 13. Nxf6 . If 13. c4 is the path most of you prefer, I suggest to start sharing the ideas behind this early and often (start posting diagrams with clear explanations + positive graphics supporting these ideas). I think Nxf6 might just gain voting momentum, also competing with Bxf6, but 13. c4 is more abstract and requires some clear, consistent, and repetitive "story telling" to sell this narrative.

Let's get "explosive" with c4! etc 🙂

[river prawn]

I think we should focus on anti-Nxf6+

Something about not moving a piece to the center just to trade it off

[compact gale]

I want to weigh in on this topic. The power of this team is debating what is the best move for us, then polling it to make a single decision and then following through on that, even if you move didn't win the poll. If everybody that participated in the poll then disregards it in favor of their preference, we are not acting as a team. YOu can argue strenuously for your move, but if it doesn't win the poll, support the team. Other times your move will win and someone else will be unhappy their move didn't win.

Our power consists of our process for debating and polling to agree on a single move for every Gotham response. More power comes from regularly publishing our recommendations to influence the team chat readers. Even more power comes from interacting with players on the team chat.

If you didn't participate, I guess your aren't expected to follow the team. But if you did, I would argue you "should". We can't compel you to do so, but if you participate and then go your own way, you are missing the point of this team.

[slow breach]

What are the polling results, David?

[river prawn]

I didn’t support 12.Ne4, I favored 12.c4, but I will follow the team within reason

And I’ve yet to see the team be unreasonable in any way

[river prawn]

12..Be7 13.c4
12..Qc7 13.Nxd6
12..Bb4 13.c3
12..Bc7 13.c4

[slow breach]

I suggest focusing on 13. Bxf6? as an "Anti-candidate move" as this is a move that is currently already receiving support and surrending our bishop without any clear reason feels like a negative imbalance. I don't think 13. Nxf6 should be an anti-candidate move as it is perfectly playable and leads to fairly simple, playable positions. If "xf6" runs away with the vote, let's make sure it isn't bishop takes f6.

So, if the team voted 13. c4 (please feel free to share these results in the "next move" discussion here as I don't always see these polls / voting results), I'm happy to support this decision as the only way it will make its way across the finish line is through united support and diligent and frequent communication in the game chat.

[compact gale]

13 Bxf6 and Nxf6 are both not good for us. Bxf6 is worse than Nxf6, after 13 .. gxf6.

[slow breach]

Perhaps I've overlooked something as I haven't analyzed too deeply, but I guess I don't understand why 13. Nxf6 is "not good?" The main drawback, as fair as I can tell, is that the game is somewhat simplified, but I don't see why this is problematic for more concrete reasons?

In any case, happy to support 13. c4, but if a capture occurs on f6, as far as I can tell, Nxf6 is perfectly fine.

[compact gale]

Please take a hard look at 12 Ne4 Be7 13 Bxf6 gxf6! and 12 Ne4 Be7 13 Nxf6 gxf6!. This is my concrete reason. Don't assume he will recapture with a piece.

[slow breach]

Interesting! After 13. Nxf6 gxf6 14. Bf4, White is in some sort of trouble?

I don't quite see it, but we may need to look at it more closely if this move wins the vote (which seems OK compared to 13. Bxf6).

In any case, it sounds like as a team we are not actively supporting 13. Nxf6 and have voted a majority in favor of 13. c4. I don't entirely believe in 13...gxf6 against 13. Nxf6, and will need to analyze things like 14. Bh6 and 14. Bf4 if we haven't already done so, but we certainly should be ready for it and I certainly have not deeply analyzed this line.

[compact gale]

After 13 Nxf6 gxf6 14 Bf4, then black can play Kg7 and Rh8

[slow breach]

Creative and risky! An important possibility to keep in mind, perhaps rather double-edged.

Since we're not supporting that line, happy to support the team's desire to play 13. c4, so early, frequent, and clear communication will be key to give it a chance. We'll need to be ready for 13. Nxf6+ to possibly win the vote, and I don't think that is by any means the end of the world, but let's "see" about that possibility if we can't "see four" across the finish line 🙂

[vagrant pelican]

Can you see this channel? #next-move-polls

[slow breach]

Thanks for pointing this out! I probably won't deep-dive the channels too much here, and will mostly interact in "next-move-discussion" and our game chat. So, if people can share summaries here from time to time, that would be appreciated.

[compact gale]

The gxf6 pawn structure also supports an e5 break for Gotham

[compact gale]

share summaries where and how?

[slow breach]

You've shared screenshots of what you are preparing to write in the game chat based upon polling results, so that is helpful

[slow breach]

Definitely good to keep these creative pawn captures in mind. I don't think he can play this way "without risk," because as these pawns lunge forward they will leave space behind. We could run into some challenging moments, but he will have to be willing to potentially expose his own king a bit in the process.

[compact gale]

We will be doing our initial recommendations very soon since only 2 hours remain on our turn

[slow breach]

Great, maybe people can advertise the likely 12. Ne4 Be7 line and start building a very visible narrative surrounding 13. c4 as voters will need to see, discuss, and digest this concept early and often!

I see 12. c4 already has 11% of the vote, so hopefully these players can be persuaded to continue with that voting momentum.

[compact gale]

I do agree that the biggest "threat" is that the world play 13 Bxf6 and gxf6 is the response.

[slow breach]

Yes, I feel like the team should prioritize NOT 13. Bxf6, and then prefer to see 13. c4 . If other moves appear and gain traction, I sense it is unlikely to be disasterous at this point.

(assuming 12. Ne4 survives the 11th hour here 😉 )

[river prawn]

no evidence of botting this time

[compact gale]

Proposed recommendations for Move 13. Please review and suggest changes

Recommendations for our Move 13 response to GothamChess's expected replies to 12 Ne4 from discussion and polling on Chess.com's Official discussion forum:

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Be7 or Bc7, we play 13 c4, denying d5 to GothamChess's knights and supporting a possible d5 break. Possibly following up with Nc3 in several lines.

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Qc7, we play 13 Nxd6, exchanging our knight for GothamChess's last remaining "good" bishop.

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Bb4, we play 13 c3, defending our rook on e1, protecting our d4 pawn and keeping the initiative by counter attacking his Bb4.

Please do NOT play 12. Bxf6. Per Coach Dane, Mistake #1 Capturing for the sake of capturing applies here. Worse than that, Gotham actually improves his position with 12 .. gxf6!

Please do NOT play 12. Ne5. Per Coach Dane, our Nf3 is a good knight and our Ng3 is a bad knight. By playing Ne5, we’re offering our good knight for exchange. Even if GothamChess doesn’t exchange it, he’s certain to play c5 at some point, one of the thematic pawn breaks in Caro-Kann, and our Ne5 knight will lose support from d4 pawn.

You can join the Official Chess.com discussion forum to help discuss and analyze the game, vote in polls to select the best moves for The World Team, and promote them in the GothamChess game team chat!

Link: https://go.chess.com/PlayGothamDiscord

Going once ......

54 minutes remaining for our turn

[river prawn]

don't forget to tell people not to play 12.Nxf6+ too

same reason as 12.Bxf6

[compact gale]

I was concerned about Coach Dane's support for that move. But I do believe it is not good for it. Anybody else want to weight in? [Note that the recommendations can be changed in later editions]

[river prawn]

coach dane thinks it will help prevent us from making mistakes in the near future

but after 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4, it's even easier to avoid making mistakes

and nearly everyone plays 13..Nxe4

[compact gale]

So your opinion is to warn agains 13 Nxf6, right? Anyone else?

[river prawn]

it's just a capture without reason

[compact gale]

Please do NOT play 12 Bxf6 or Nxf6 Per Coach Dane, Mistake #1 Capturing for the sake of capturing applies here. Worse than that, Gotham actually improves his position with 12 .. gxf6 against both!

Perhap take out the Coach Dane part, but do use his quote?

[river prawn]

Yes, reference Mistake Number One

Also make sure to write 13.Nxf6+

With the check

[river prawn]

Next move is move 13 now

So “Please do NOT play 13.Nxf6+ or 13.Bxf6…”

[compact gale]

Recommendations for our Move 13 response to GothamChess's expected replies to 12 Ne4 from discussion and polling on Chess.com's Official discussion forum:

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Be7 or Bc7, we play 13 c4, denying d5 to GothamChess's knights and supporting a possible d5 break.

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Qc7, we play 13 Nxd6, exchanging our knight for GothamChess's last remaining "good" bishop.

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Bb4, we play 13 c3, defending our rook on e1, protecting our d4 pawn and keeping the initiative by counter attacking his Bb4.

Please do NOT play 13 Bxf6 or Nxf6. Both are instances of Mistake #1 Capturing for the sake of capturing applies here. Worse than that, Gotham actually improves his position with 12 .. gxf6 against both!

Please do NOT play 13 Ne5. Per Coach Dane, our Nf3 is a good knight and our Ng3 is a bad knight. By playing Ne5, we’re offering our good knight for exchange. Even if GothamChess doesn’t exchange it, he’s certain to play c5 at some point, one of the thematic pawn breaks in Caro-Kann, and our Ne5 knight will lose support from d4 pawn.

You can join the Official Chess.com discussion forum to help discuss and analyze the game, vote in polls to select the best moves for The World Team, and promote them in the GothamChess game team chat!

Link: https://go.chess.com/PlayGothamDiscord

[river prawn]

You forgot to make it 13.Nxf6+, not 13.Nxf6

[compact gale]

Move 13 Recommendations

Recommendations for our Move 13 response to GothamChess's expected replies to 12 Ne4 from discussion and polling on Chess.com's Official discussion forum:

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Be7 or Bc7, we play 13 c4, denying d5 to GothamChess's knights and supporting a possible d5 break.

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Qc7, we play 13 Nxd6, exchanging our knight for GothamChess's last remaining "good" bishop.

If GothamChess plays 12 .. Bb4, we play 13 c3, defending our rook on e1, protecting our d4 pawn and keeping the initiative by counter attacking his Bb4.

Please do NOT play 13 Bxf6 or 13 Nxf6+. Both are instances of Mistake #1 Capturing for the sake of capturing applies here. Worse than that, Gotham actually improves his position with 13 .. gxf6 against both!

Please do NOT play 13 Ne5. Per Coach Dane, our Nf3 is a good knight and our Ng3 is a bad knight. By playing Ne5, we’re offering our good knight for exchange. Even if GothamChess doesn’t exchange it, he’s certain to play c5 at some point, one of the thematic pawn breaks in Caro-Kann, and our Ne5 knight will lose support from d4 pawn.

You can join the Official Chess.com discussion forum to help discuss and analyze the game, vote in polls to select the best moves for The World Team, and promote them in the GothamChess game team chat!

Link: https://go.chess.com/PlayGothamDiscord

I think I got all of the move numbering fixed (blush). Anything else?

[river prawn]

Looks good

[vagrant pelican]

Thank you, David!

[compact gale]

Phew!

Colorizing and posting now

Posted on team chat as well

If Ne5 wins I'll blow a gasket. Ne4 is +287

with 30 minutes remaining

[river prawn]

We’ll be fine

[compact gale]

Yes

[compact gale]

Thanks for the quick review and fixes!

[compact gale]

Recommendations posted to new move team chat after previous move was just archived.

[river prawn]

What was the final vote margin, I didn’t catch it

[river prawn]

Okay, so about 300

Not bad

[compact gale]

Yeah

Crazy how it stayed so close

[tender grove]

if it comes down to Nxf6 vs Bxf6 we support Nxf6 right

[river prawn]

Yes, but I really hope it doesn’t come to that

It will likely be Nxf6+ vs c4

[vagrant pelican]

And vote count has gone back up to 20k

[vagrant pelican]

Did anyone read the recent post by goozack on chesscom team chat?

Saying that black can play b5 to undermine c4

[river prawn]

Just b3, no?

Actually

We are fine just playing Qe2

Because if bxc4 Qxc4, the c6 pawn is weaker than our d4 pawn

[compact gale]

Just saw it. Haven't had time to respond

[outer lance]

So far I have looked at these moves for move 14. if the following continuation occurs ... 12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 b5... :

. Playing any of the Queen moves that defend the c4 pawn, so: Qb3, Qc1, Qc2, Qd3 , or Qe2.
. Reroute the Knight on e4 to d2, I think it is one of the exceptions to consider a backward N move, it also removes a target for Black as I think the trade on the e4 square is more beneficial for Black in the near future.
. b3 is also an option, but I think keeping the ab pawn pair is better for us, as there is potential for a 2 on 1 outside pawn scenario later, could be other good reasons too, but I haven't thought of them yet.
. The "anti-candidate moves" of Nxf6+ or Bxf6 can be considered for a poll, even though I prefer one of the Q moves or even Ned2 over either way we could take on f6, in this line.

. We would OC need a poll, since I think most moves I mentioned against this potential line look like candidate moves for White, right?

[outer lance]

The other "problem" is that Qe2 does look like a solid alternative to c4 for move 13, after 12.Ne4 Be7.

I am personally about as happy if either of those moves are played on move 13, but will OC promote on chess.com chat what we vote for in any poll for move 13. against Be7.

Update after looking at our polls against the possible and likely 12. Be7 move:
c4 has 15 votes, the next closest has 6 votes and Qe2 has zero, ATM.
So, with about 100 minutes to go before that Discord poll closes, it looks like we will continue promoting 13. c4.

[outer lance]

Didn't check for typos very carefully, but does this read ok in response to a post on chess.com chat?

Question by another chess.com player "perhaps, but does not Qe2 have some merit putting pressure on black's e pawn?"

My response:
"If I vote close to the start of our next 24 hour voting slot, then I plan on voting for c4 against Be7, if Black plays that likely move here.
But, I think Qe2 could also be a good move against Be7, as connecting the Rs and not blundering any pieces to direct threats or tactics doesn't seem too bad to me.

OC, our plans can change in these types of games, as we may need to band together and vote for another move instead of our preferred one, to prevent any moves that look like a mistake from winning.

Just to name two, the "one mover - trade because we can" / "anti-candidate" looking moves of Bxf6 or Nxf6+ look inferior to me with our current board position, at least when compared to Qe2 or c4. "

. You don't necessarily have to agree with what I said, just tell me if it makes sense / reads ok or not.
. I can't get the formatting on chess.com to space the paragraphs the way I want, so that is why it looks all squashed when reading this from the team chat.
. see link below, if you want to comment or follow that conversation on chess.com.

https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/386700?page=1#comment-120620650

[outer lance]

In the link to the comment made about an hour ago below, I agree that this could be a good line for us to try and play if Black makes it possible, at least to move 27. Qd4.

https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/386700?page=1#comment-120620822

In case the link becomes dead later, then I think this is the line mentioned in that post:
... 12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4 Nf6 16.Re3 Qc7 17.Qe2 Rfd8 18.Rd1 Rd6 19.Red3 Rad8 20.h3 b5 21.b3 bxc4 22.bxc4 c5 23.dxc5 Rxd3 24.Rxd3 Rxd3 25.Qxd3 Qxc5 26.Qd8+ Kh7 27.Qd4 Qxd4 28.Nxd4 ...

. For move 16. in the above line, I believe any other "Rook saving move" will be fine to at least consider there, too.
. I think it will be unlikely for Black to want to trade Qs at that time though with Qxd4, as for one I think our isolated passed P will be a lot easier to safely push with the Qs off the board.
. The point above may be obvious to at least some of us, but it is still worth mentioning so that anyone else can discuss further if they wanted more clarification or help with understanding it ?

[river prawn]

Ignoring the exact move order, is the knight endgame winning for us?

Like yes our pawn structure is slightly better, but is that enough to win?

Assume black plays c5 but not b5, and we play dxc5 (or black plays cxd4)

[compact gale]

Can you post a pic of that position?

[river prawn]

There are several possible positions, but something with a pawn structure like this:

6k1/pp3pp1/4pnp1/8/2P5/1P3N2/P4PPP/6K1 w - - 0 1

Or this

6k1/pp3pp1/4pnp1/8/2P5/5N2/PP3PPP/6K1 w - - 0 1

[compact gale]

Looking at the first position, I would prefer white. It is easier for white to produce a passed pawn on the queen side. If the knights are exchanged, white benefits from that.

[river prawn]

I know, but is white winning

That’s the question

Like yes, white is slightly better, but is that enough to win

[compact gale]

It is has necessary elements for a win, but I don't think it is sufficent to guarantee a win.

Sorry, I misplaced my 16 piece tablebase in one of these piles around here somewhere ....

[river prawn]

There are databases for this

Pawn structure

That being said, there is absolutely no way we convert that endgame

Even if it was theoretically winning

[compact gale]

You are so cynical! 💀

[outer lance]

I see can see that it looks' like a winning position for us if 27.Qd4 Qxd4 28.Nxd4, as mentioned in the line posted by the chess.com member
Al-Didi, an hour or so ago.

At first glance it still looks like a solid line to attempt to play for, even if Black doesn't take our Q on move 27, which he probably wouldn't.

OC, we will be lucky to get close to that position, even if Black plays all the moves mentioned up to 27.

[river prawn]

Here’s how black drew the only game with 15.Rxe4

[Event "3CSP/7VEN/GC1 (VEN)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2020.01.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Reed, Arthur F."]
[Black "Viviani, Enrico"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "bB9VEovu"]
[WhiteElo "2237"]
[BlackElo "2228"]
[Variant "Standard"]
[TimeControl "-"]
[ECO "B18"]
[Opening "Caro-Kann Defense: Classical Variation"]
[Termination "Unknown"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 { B18 Caro-Kann Defense: Classical Variation } 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. Bd3 e6 8. O-O Ngf6 9. Bxg6 hxg6 10. c4 Bd6 11. Bg5 O-O 12. Ne4 Be7 13. Re1 Nxe4 14. Bxe7 Qxe7 15. Rxe4 Rfd8 16. Qe2 Nf6 17. Re5 Qc7 18. h4 a6 19. Rd1 Rac8 20. Re3 c5 21. dxc5 Rxd1+ 22. Qxd1 Qxc5 23. Rc3 Ne4 24. Re3 Qxc4 25. Qd7 Nf6 26. Qxb7 Rc7 27. Qb3 Qc1+ 28. Re1 Qc4 { wins. } 1/2-1/2

I don’t really understand 17.Re5

Because white had to play 20.Re3 later

[compact gale]

I don't understand Re5 either. I also don't see why they drew this so early. I like white's queen side majority.

[river prawn]

Also what is 18.h4

[compact gale]

I think I would snap off queens with 29 Qxc4. Those perpetuals are so annoying when you are trying to win.

[river prawn]

It’s like this other game in the 12.c4 line where white played Bc1

[river prawn]

You mean 29.Qxc4

[compact gale]

I think h4 with g3 is about inhibiting blacks pawn majority.

[river prawn]

Then play it later

When black actually starts advancing the kingside pawns

[compact gale]

Want to stop it from ever starting.

[river prawn]

See the issue I have here is that black can probably draw this, but white doesn’t even bother making black prove how

Black offered the draw with 28..Qc4

[compact gale]

In ICCF! I like whites chances.

[river prawn]

Yes, making it an even better comparison to this game

[outer lance]

I don't understand it either.
Could it have been played to provoke a response, otherwise I have no real idea at all ?

If I was told to play on from both sides of the board after black plays move 16. Nf6, I may play something like this:

... 17. Rh4 Nh7 18. h3 Rd6 19. Re1 ...

after that, I would need to think a bit more, and OC there is likely some moves that could be improved on for both sides, as I only looked at it very quickly, and, like most of us, I don't have as good an overall understanding as anyone with "Master" in their title.

[river prawn]

This entire line ever since 7.Bd3 has seen a disproportionate number of correspondence games, although almost none at high level (2400+)

[compact gale]

The database you refer to with pawn structures, where is that? Is it for K+P endgames?

[river prawn]

No, there are databases for piece endgames with specific pawn structures

i don’t remember where

Not easily accessible

[compact gale]

By the way, I don't think we are allowed to use tablebases

[river prawn]

Yes we are

That’s very clearly allowed

“It is OK to discuss opening lines found in game databases”

https://support.chess.com/en/articles/8614177-how-do-i-play-vote-chess

You can check the entirety of the rules there

Oh wait

Yeah

We can’t use tablebases

I misread what you said

Yeah my bad

Tablebases aren’t game databases

And positional databases aren’t game databases either

Although the line gets blurry

[compact gale]

positional databases?

Isn't that just a game databsae that supports fast position searches?

[river prawn]

List of games with specific pawn structure and certain pieces on the board

[river prawn]

Yes

The problem is the position searching can’t be done manually

If we were in a more theoretical opening we would still be in theory

I have several correspondence games in the Poisoned Pawn Najdorf and it doesn’t even look like regular chess

[outer lance]

Even though we can't use tablebases for ongoing games, would it have been something similar to the info in this link:

https://help.chessbase.com/CBase/18/Eng/index.html?search_for_similar_endgames.htm

. It is not specific to our position, so I think we can still look at that link.
. Obviously I am not promoting that we should use the info in that link for any ongoing games, but it could be of some help if any of us want to review it after our game is over.
. Lastly, only read the info very quickly, so it may not be related to the thing we were talking about.

[river prawn]

idk, we’ll see what happens in the game

I wouldn’t plan anything more than 10 moves out

[outer lance]

Yes agreed.
Also, to add to that going forward, we will be very lucky if we even get to play 1/2 the moves that win the poll on discord.

[compact gale]

I'm still trying to get the knack of the skull emoji

[river prawn]

Especially once we finish development

[compact gale]

Do you have chessbase premium?

[river prawn]

No

[outer lance]

I don't either, I just found that link by searching:
" databases that show specific piece and pawn endgames "

. On my search it was the 8th result down the first page.
. Also, I used google to search.

[river prawn]

Let’s vote now

I don’t know why

But 12..Be7 was played

It’s 1 AM EDT

Play 13.c4

Oh of course

The low Elo vote is fractured between 13.Nxf6+, 13.Bxf6, and 13.Ne5

Hahahaha

13.Ne5 is another anti-candidate move

[compact gale]

I think c4 and Qe2 are our top 2 alternatives with the slightest of nods going to c4. If Qe2 were to win in the game vote, I would not be unhappy about that.

[river prawn]

13.c4 is leading, 13.Qe2 isn’t even close

God I love gerrymandering

That’s not exactly the right term

But this is hilarious

It will be another close vote

[barren hatch]

What does c4 do or why are we playing it?

[river prawn]

Helps control the center, plus it’s the only move with a chance of stopping 13.Nxf6+, a pointless capture

[outer lance]

Even though it is not a great example line, as I don't think Gotham would attempt to play the one mentioned below.

... 12.Ne4 Be7 13.c4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Nxf2 15.Bxd8 Nxd1 16.Rexd1 or Raxd1

. Not the whole line, but starting from 14. Nxf2 is where the trappy and sharpy looking misplay by Black occurs.
. It is still one I think the World could easily also misplay,
. I could see the the misplay by White happening in the above dubious hypothetical line on move 16.
. Not going to write anymore about this until later, since Black just moved, as already posted by Lily.

[compact gale]

c4 53
Nxf6+ 43
Ne5 29

[river prawn]

Wrong, we win a piece there, 16.Be7 Rfe8 17.Ba3! trapping the knight

[outer lance]

Nxf6+ is a close 2nd now with:

c4 63
Nxf6+ 55

[river prawn]

22% margin between the anti-candidate moves and the candidate move

Crazy

We really lucked out here

[compact gale]

c4, Nxf6+, Ne5 with Bxf6 trailing

[river prawn]

This is still awfully close

[outer lance]

I can see that, but I doubt most of us on chess.com would vote for 16. Be7 in that position.
That is why I said I think the World would more likely vote for one of the 16. Rx moves.
I would be very happy and impressed if we played 16.Be7 Rfe8 17.Ba3!, in that unlikely scenario.

[tender grove]

levy can calculate it

and we decided that he probably won’t play intentionally bad moves

[river prawn]

This is ugly

[river prawn]

Correct, but GothamChess doesn’t know that so he won’t play 14..Nxf2

Why risk losing a piece

[tender grove]

I mean he would play Nxb2 instead of saving the rook

but yeah no reason for him to go for that

[river prawn]

Neck and neck

[compact gale]

typo?

[river prawn]

No

It’s been in first for short periods of time

[outer lance]

Exactly is was a bad hypothetical, but still based on our current position.

I mentioned it just to agree and illustrate the point that we will likely have something a lot worse to try and prevent once we are further into the game, and out of opening / Masters' database ideas to play.

In other words, if Nxf6+ is played by us here I probably won't "rage-quit" the game, though if something as bad looking but probably not the same as my above "hypothetical example" occurs, then I may consider doing so.

. I started writing the original hypothetical before Black made a move.
. It is more important to focus on pushing c4 now, as I stated above.

[river prawn]

The only reason Nxf6+ isn’t leading right now is because of vote splitting with Ne5 and Bxf6. If we win, it will be with no more than 25% of the vote, an ugly win

How I feel rn

https://youtube.com/shorts/mbLITB1_xfg

Actually Nxf6+ took the lead again

[outer lance]

Below is a link to an AI generated meme, as I was getting bored reusing the same ones from the Magnus game.

https://imgflip.com/i/a98t8d

. Because of issues with my pc, I can't post the meme directly to chess.com.
. If anyone here likes it then please post to chess.com chat.

[compact gale]

Posted it, thanks!

My god this is close!

[river prawn]

It’s staying close

Raw margin is not changing

[compact gale]

<@&1377312389040443522> Let's go team! vote and promote our decision 13 c4 👍 vs 13 Nxf6+ 👎 on the game board and team chat! Its very very close and will make a big difference in the game.

[heady plover]

not sure why Nxf6+ is so popular. its just a trade

[ocean path]

Bro

[ocean path]

true...

[compact gale]

13 Nxf6+ is now in the lead by 3 votes

[outer lance]

Tried to repost the meme by quoting both David F and RubiconLily, but it still doesn't work for me even when I try to do it that way.

[pale rover]

low elo players

69 people mouseslipped c4 😂

[river prawn]

13.c4 is leading again but it’s still very close

I made a new meme

[pale rover]

if you vote nxf6 ur gay

thatll solve it

[outer lance]

Even though it is less likely than Nxf6+ winning the vote, Ne5 isn't too far away either in third place currently, see totals below:

c4 261
Nxf6+ 260
and
Ne5 220 votes.

. Lets' hope c4 ends up being played out of those three, as I can't tell which is more likely worse for us out of Ne5 or Nxf6+?
. Going to go through some of the voting profiles to see if any look like "newly created accounts" / "shill accounts".

[pale rover]

Ne5 = 🥀

[river prawn]

No evidence

[outer lance]

Even though I 😆 a little bit, be careful what you say there.

[outer lance]

You are right, probably a waste of time, too hard to prove either way, etc.
Anyway, I just clicked on Nxf6+ and it won't show me the list of voters, even though I can see who voted for Ne5 and c4 ???

[river prawn]

Improperly sanitized database probably

https://xkcd.com/327/

xkcd: Exploits of a Mom

Her daughter is named Help I'm trapped in a driver's license factory.

The + at the end of the move

This might be the first 3 way race so far

[tender grove]

god I love xkcd

[river prawn]

Ne5 is also close but I can’t tell if it’s closing in

[tender grove]

and all of his books

does the cc comment section support gifs

for our move recommendation memes

[river prawn]

No

[tender grove]

damn

[river prawn]

Just images

[hardy island]

How do we know Nxf6+ is a bad move?

Are the mods team cheating

https://tenor.com/view/dexter-james-doakes-surprise-mf-can't-prove-it-gif-7408854170742055240

[outer lance]

As of this post I can't really tell yet, as it was 41 behind c4 now it is 48 behind.

[hardy island]

I just voted for Kh1

phenomenal prophylaxis move

[outer lance]

It is probably not a bad move, but we are trying to promote away from the "anti-candidate" looking moves, like trading a piece for no real reason / just because we can.
Also, as I think someone mentioned in the team chat or here, we didn't move our N to that good square just to trade it off.

[river prawn]

13, 45 now

[river prawn]

I mentioned that

Nxf6+ isn’t terrible, but it’s clearly not the best and it’s easy to explain why

Qe2 might be better than c4, but Qe2 can’t win, so c4 it is

[compact gale]

b/c of 13 Nxf6+ gxf6!

[tender grove]

Rb1 is better

[river prawn]

c4 is clearly better than Nxf6+ or Ne5

[hardy island]

Lemme turn on the engine rq

jkjk

[river prawn]

6,44

4,46

Crazy

[hardy island]

But I mean is there really a difference positionally between trading the knight on f6 vs trading the knight on e4?

[river prawn]

Yes, we win a tempo

Also we get to trade the bishops

And that’s good

[hardy island]

I mean c4 Nxe4 Bxe7 Qxe7 Rxe4 is a forced sequence and it looks miserable for Black

because f5 would be terrible

[river prawn]

Nxe4 isn’t actually forced

[hardy island]

Ik

But if Nxe4 that sequence is forced

[compact gale]

Not a good time for prophlaxis. We have more urgent needs.

[river prawn]

Yes

[hardy island]

So we’re just gonna expand queenside?

[compact gale]

Yes!!

[river prawn]

Maybe, but right now c4 stops Nd5

[hardy island]

Grabs a bit of space too

Yeah I don’t see nothing wrong with it

[river prawn]

People say it makes d4 weak

But we already have plenty of defenders of d4

[hardy island]

I mean I’m fine putting my bishop on e3

[outer lance]

Nxf6+ is only 3 behind since I last checked, and we still have to be a bit wary of Ne5 since it is hovering around 40-50 behind.

[hardy island]

Plus these noobs don’t know shit about IQP

[river prawn]

And someone said that it will “tie down” our rooks and queen to defending d4, but what else would they be doing anyway

We put our rooks and queen on the d-file so we’re ready for when it opens

[hardy island]

Nxf6+ is ahead by 1 vote now

[river prawn]

1, 45

[hardy island]

This is why the world should’ve voted for the Alien Gambit in the beginning

[river prawn]

1,42

[river prawn]

No

[hardy island]

Sorry not Alien Gambit

Martian Gambit mb

🥀

but now we’re probably gonna lose a slow positional battle

[outer lance]

Don't know if they are serious or not , but a CM may have also mentioned part of my "bad hypothetical" that I wasn't really seriously considering the World may play here.

https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/386700?page=1#comment-120625092

[river prawn]

Yeah

I was going to go to bed but this vote is absurdly close

[compact gale]

f5 is not the play for black. But e5 is possible and good in some lines. Also his king now has g7 available and Rh8

[sand panther]

Hi

[compact gale]

Welcome!

[hardy island]

Nxf6+ is leading

[river prawn]

It’s tied

[hardy island]

and she’s locked out

[river prawn]

It’s going back and forth

[hardy island]

c4 is too complex for these 400s lmao

oh me see trade me can trade

[river prawn]

We need to get the low Elo players to leave

[outer lance]

Don't know if you watch him at all or enough to know that, but it is funny to me that Gotham says something like that fairly often in certain youtube videos.

[river prawn]

I want to play the game, not deal with 50% of the playerbase making garbage moves, that’s what you get when you add up 13.Nxf6+, 13.Bxf6 and 13.Ne5

13.Qd2, 13.Qd3, 13.c3, and 13.Qe2 are all reasonable and we could debate which would be better, but instead we’re always trying to stop an obviously bad move from winning

[fast thistle]

Tbh ive wondered. How do you stop a few individuals from looking at stockfish and just trying to reason his way why it's the move to play?

There's hundreds of us here

I feel sorry for Levy 💔

[hardy island]

Unfortunately they make up 95% of the playerbase

High elo players won’t watch Levy

[fast thistle]

That's really valid

[outer lance]

Hopefully they are too bad at chess to fully or even partially understand the move they are promoting, and eventually get their account closed.

[compact gale]

That is not going to happen. More likely top players would leave after some bad moves winning the vote.

[compact gale]

You left our c4 ..

[hardy island]

I do watch him

I’m low elo asf that’s why I still watch Levy

[river prawn]

Those are moves we could be debating against c4

[river prawn]

We lost a bunch when 6.h4 and 7.h4 lost

[outer lance]

So that was why c4 is coming 2nd, 😢 .

JK OC about what I just said above, in fact if anything you are probably one of the members' promoting c4 the most on team chat ATM.

. Don't know if it is still true, but everyone be careful about posting too much on team chat, as it may trigger an auto-mute for "potential spamming" or something similar?

[river prawn]

Who cares, if we win today we can rest for at least 3 days while 13..Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Rxe4 gets played

[outer lance]

Gotham is enjoyable to watch
Also, I think players' of most skill levels can learn some things from at least a few of his videos.

[river prawn]

Ok the margin is steady between 10 and 20

Not great but not bad

No evidence of botting

[compact gale]

I know they are aware of our need to post the recommendations from Chess.com's Official discussion forum to the top page frequently as it rolls off of page 1.

[outer lance]

c4 has the biggest lead I have noticed so far, as of this post the totals are:

c4 469
Nxf6+ 451
and
Ne5 411

GTG and GL with c4, maybe I will be back in a few hours.

[river prawn]

I think we’re safe

[outer lance]

Cool/ good to know, I only mentioned because I am pretty sure at least someone I know got muted in the Magnus vs The World game.
Bye for now.

[river prawn]

I mean I think 13.c4 will defeat 13.Nxf6+

[compact gale]

How powerful is your crystal ball? Why do you think so?

I'd love to be convinced of that.

[river prawn]

Margins don’t shift much

[compact gale]

That's an arguement for c4 being safely ahead?!

[river prawn]

14,56

10,56

I don’t know

[compact gale]

what are those numbers?

leads over #2 and #3 ?

11,59

[river prawn]

Yes

Last move, it was close like this for a while

The largest lead by 12.Ne5 was less than 20

And then 12.Ne4 pulled away

[compact gale]

10,61

[river prawn]

13,62

It got as close as 7

I hope the NA voters are good

[compact gale]

NA?

16,67

Can you see who is voting for Nxf6+? I can't

[river prawn]

18,59

12,57