next-move-discussion

[compact gale]

The only way to change those recommendations is to create one or more polls to override.

Lucas, you are part of a team that based its recommendations on polling, and we have already polled this for 5 Ng3 Bg6 and the winner was h4.

[fast thistle]

Sure. I know that, I've been voting from day 1

I'm discussing move 7 not the move that was already on poll and voted

Sorry for taking your time and miscommunicating, this will not repeat

[compact gale]

I mis spoke. There are 5 hours remaining on that poll. If you and others get enough votes your move would be the new winner (not an override).

---

It currently shows 22 votes for 6 h4 (recommended by Coach Dane and opening theory and master game practice) and 11 votes for 6 Nf3.

You can still change your vote until the poll closes.

[inner iron]

Lucas was talking about move 7... not move 6... There is no poll for move 7 yet. (not really a next move discussion though.) Wanting to play Nf6 would fall in line with the main variation for move 7 (according to Coach Dane)

[compact gale]

@inner iron you mean 7 Nf3? If so, then yes that is the plan

[inner iron]

yess.... Nf3. >.< for move 7.

[compact gale]

Reminder to check Coach Dane's analysis on h4 here: https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/pgn/3eYKzRo7ki/analysis

[vagrant pelican]

Thanks for bringing this up. He’s not suggesting to go Nf3 at all but develop the dark bishop first to protect the d4. Makes sense if we’re castling queen side

[compact gale]

He is suggesting an interesting option for us 6 h4 h6 7 Be3 e6 8 Bd3 Bxd3 9 Qxd3 Nf6 11 O-O-O

Interesting idea!

So that is move 7 stuff, which is our new task now

[slow breach]

Thanks for sharing my analysis! I'll look forward to more discussion tomorrow. Basically, 6. h4! is a move I hope the team can unite around and vote / communicate early and often here! I mentioned I am quite interested in Ntirlis' analysis surrounding 7. Be3. This is just one direction we may want to consider, and I will add some commentary tomorrow regarding 7. Nf3, which is by far the main line. Unlike 5. Ng3!, move seven will very much be a matter of taste and what the team may feel most inspired to play. Whether we commit to 7. Nf3 or 7. Be3 we can look forward to an interesting game and prepare to continue to ask Levy some persistent questions before our theoretical knowledge comes to an end.

[vagrant pelican]

I see some reservations on team chat about h4

[compact gale]

Yes. We should repost our recommendations again. I just did that.

---

I should have mentioned that we intend to castle queen-side in the h4 lines!

We should update the reason ..

[vagrant pelican]

How does this look?

If GothamChess plays 5 .. Bg6, we play 6 h4 threatening Gotham's Bg6 with capture after h5. We intend to play Nf3 or Be3 to protect our d4 pawn, then exchange the light square bishop while developing our queen and castling queen side

Removed ‘forcing the bishop going to h7’ because if we play the Be3 line, the bishop might not go to h7

[compact gale]

Version 2:

If GothamChess plays 5 .. Bg6, we play 6 h4 threatening Gotham's Bg6 with capture after h5. We intend to play Nf3 or Be3 to protect our d4 pawn, then exchange the light square bishops with Bd3, recapturing with our queen and then castling queen side. So h4 contributes to a potential king-side attack.

I'll edit that in now

Here is our latest recommendation edits v

[vagrant pelican]

h4 doesn’t have a great chance of winning.

[maiden pagoda]

Why h4?

It doesnt look too good to me whats the point of it

[inner iron]

That question was asked and answered previously.

[vagrant pelican]

It’s there in our recommendation 2 posts earlier

[maiden pagoda]

Ohh yea i think i get it

Ig this is why im 900 elo 😔

I would have just played Nf3 ngl

[inner iron]

h4 is a very good move due to development and is a move that levy has to respond to. It's threatening to trap his bishop on the next move and limits him on his response. Nf3 isn't as limiting I don't think.

[vagrant pelican]

h4 is behind Bd3 now

[inner iron]

ugh....

[maiden pagoda]

Why tf do people wanna play Bd3 so bad

It hangs a pawn

[outer lance]

Nf3 is the early vote leader, we may have to "jump ship" and promote Nf3 ?

[vagrant pelican]

As of now, i don’t see fake accounts voting for Bd3 as of now

[vagrant pelican]

Don’t think it needs promotion

[outer lance]

PS, I voted for h4

[maiden pagoda]

I think h4 is better than Nf3 but Nf3 still doesnt seem too bad

Ima just vote for h4

As long as we dont hang a pawn 💔

[outer lance]

Yes, not ATM but if the "fake looking accounts" start voting for Bd3 again, then we may have to ???

[empty idol]

I won't lie, it may be more beneficial to shift our votes and opinions to Nf3 to combat Bd3

We don't want to split the vote given how little we won the last one with a more united front

[maiden pagoda]

Are you able to change your vote after youve voted?

I went with h4 but if Bd3 starts doing well ill switch to Nf3 so make sure we dont play Bd3

[inner iron]

no. people have tried various ways of doing it and even tried leaving and coming back, only to find out they were out for the rest of the game. Only thing to really do is wait for the next move to vote.

[outer lance]

One "good thing" with Nf3 besides being a good looking move in general, is that many lines can transpose into the h4 one in the near future, at least in the database I am using, see below for one "main line" example:

6. Nf3, 6. Nd7
7. h4, 7. h6
8. h5, 8 Bh7
9. Bd3, 9. Bxd3
   ... and so on

It is funny to me that the Bd3 advocates could be proven "correct" if Black plays 6. Nd7.

As I think Bd3 is a very playable move, as early as move 7, since it doesn't hang the pawn, if Black goes Nd7.

OC Bd3 hangs a pawn this turn, just in the fairly near future it could become a candidate move (?)

[vagrant pelican]

Nf3 is a natural developing move. Unless the fake accounts come back for Bd3, don’t think it should be an issue. Nf3 has a very comfortable lead already

[empty idol]

I get that, probably still spooked about how close the ghost accounts got to winning

[compact gale]

On chess.com, 6 Nf3 has the lead 44% to 6 h4 15% and Bd3 at 13% (yes, really)

[vagrant pelican]

I am sincerely hoping chesscom comes back tomorrow with an update regarding that

[compact gale]

I don't see any obvious fake accounts voting -- yet.

[barren hatch]

Nf3 is not the optimal engine move, but it is certainly playable.

[twin quest]

Nf3 better than h4 guys

[compact gale]

engine move?

[barren hatch]

Theory move work better? I'm going off Coach Dane's advice.

[compact gale]

Which is 6 h4

[barren hatch]

Yeah, I just always assumed theory was based off the top chess engine moves.

[compact gale]

I don't think that is the case. Opening I believe opening theory comes from human theoreticians and very strong players testing the ideas.

Also

6 Nf3 is the runner up.

[outer lance]

I think if you just go off games in fairly recent years, then yes you may be correct.
But if you use a complete database, then generally no as they didn't have engines then, obviously.

Still, it is acceptable to look at a database, as long as no engine evaluations are used.

Helpful link of what is allowed below:

https://support.chess.com/en/articles/8583921-what-counts-as-cheating-on-chess-com#h_6b4c612d26

Check to make sure with chess.com first, but I think with vote chess you are allowed get "Help from Others", as long as the others are a part of your team.

[barren hatch]

I haven't been using stockfish or any analysis engine, as that is against the rules and the spirit of the competition, I understand that all there is to go by is my own words, but I hope you will believe me.

All I have used is Coach Dane's advice https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/pgn/3eYKzRo7ki/analysis

[outer lance]

Yes, I believe you, and there is no reason for most players to use it anyway, for this type of game.
Also, it should be fairly easy for chess.com to detect, especially once we get out of the book moves / opening phase of the game.

[barren hatch]

I call it an engine move when it is a good move that nobody would ever think of on their own, and h4 is one of those moves. I mean Nf3 just looks more natural, h4 is one of those moves that looks weird and unnatural until you see how powerful it is as the game plays out, hence an "engine move." Though the actual source was the coach of the team.

[fading smelt]

Nf3 already has way more support

i mean doesn't look like a bad move from what I can see

[barren hatch]

We were working it out earlier today, Nf3 seems like a good move that is completely playable. The problem is that the knight on g3 is kind of trapped and until we get rid of that light squared bishop our knight is essentially stuck there.

[compact gale]

Yes, 6 Nf3 is good and easily transposes with 6 h4. However, after 6 Nf3, black can choose to play Nf6 and prevent our h5.

[outer lance]

h4 is played more often at the Master level, but Nf3 is played more overall and especially at the lower levels in the database I am using, see link below:

https://lichess.org/opening/Caro-Kann_Defense_Classical_Variation/e4_c6_d4_d5_Nc3_dxe4_Nxe4_Bf5_Ng3_Bg6

400 - 2000 rated players, play Nf3 more and
2200 + players play h4 more, in this setup.

Speed used: Classical and Correspondence.

[inner iron]

That's why they're only rated 400 - 2000.... The good players play h4. lol

[compact gale]

Reminder that we are playing an IM and getting advice from NM Coach Dane, I think CM Mitul also advocates for h4

If we play like a 400, we will lose like a 400 against an IM

[inner iron]

lol j/k I thought I'd throw in some levity. haha

[outer lance]

Yes, but both are good moves.
Would have been better if people followed the coaches idea as long as possible, since I think h4 likely keeps us in a book opening a bit longer.
Could be wrong OC.

[barren hatch]

Well I think people in this discord only represent a small fraction

[split urchin]

why h4

for the next move

[compact gale]

If 6 Nf3 is played, hopefully Gotham will allow us to play h4.

[split urchin]

why?'

its pretty stupid honestly

nf3 just makes more sense

[barren hatch]

h4 forces a trade of the bishops

[split urchin]

ok and?

[compact gale]

I think you mean you don't understand it. That's fair, but calling it stupid, well, that kinda makes you look not so smart. This move is most played by the Masters in this situation. It is opening theory, Coach Dane supports it. Yeah, it's obviously stupid

[barren hatch]

Rapid development, piece activity none of these seem important to you?

[compact gale]

Play 6 h4 for the win!

This is the advice of our chess.com assigned coach NM Coach Dane, opening theory, and the Master Game database. It's not that complicated, here is the plan and we (PlayGothamDiscord) will give move by move advice:

6 h4 threats Gotham's Bg6 with capture after h5. Then we intend to play Nf3 or Be3 to protect our d4 pawn, then exchange the light square bishops with Bd3, recapturing with our queen and then castling queen side. So h4 contributes to a potential king-side attack.

[outer lance]

Here is one link to some info of why it is played:

https://www.chessable.com/blog/caro-kann-defense/#elementor-toc__heading-anchor-5

Note: If the link doesn't work correctly, scroll down until you find the "Caro-Kann Defense: Classical Variation".

[barren hatch]

Right now levy has a 4 point bishop sitting pretty on g6 while we have a knight trapped on g3, so not only does he have a very powerful bishop, we are also effectively down 3 points of material unless we blow several turns trying to maneuver it to a more active square. Thus, h4 is a forcing move, it forces him to respond to our threat of trapping his bishop and finally forces him to trade off that powerful bishop for our light squared bishop. Now our knight is back in the game and his only and most powerful active piece is not off the board.

[faint gorge]

Why do h4 works in this particular opening, but not in other openings?

[compact gale]

From chessable link above:

5.Ng3

White’s most common and soundest reply, otherwise it would be Black the one winning tempi on the e4 Knight. Black follows up here with 5…Bg6 so that the Bishop is no longer hanging.

Here White has many options on how to play. 6.h4 is probably the most ambitious, going after Black’s favorite bishop.

Why is White playing such a brave move here? This is because the Caro-Kann is so positionally sound for Black that if White develops normally, Black really has no issues. That’s why a move like 6.h4 is played! White must get creative to hit at Black in an attempt to punish them for slow and automatic chess!

So let’s say White keeps developing in a “normal” manner. Black does the same. Black can find a pawn break later on c5 and gets an extra center pawn (e6), which is quite beneficial for Black as they can now stop White from placing pieces on valuable center squares.

Black should respond 6…h6 to provide a home to tuck the bishop away at on h7. Note that 6…h5 is no good, as the pawn is weak (and also g5!) and becomes a big target for White!

---

Advice: be open to learning

[faint gorge]

Open can sometimes be dangerous

h4 can also becomes a target by black

[barren hatch]

I typically play the Tal variation so h4 puts me back in familiar territory.

[compact gale]

Why is White playing such a brave move here? This is because the Caro-Kann is so positionally sound for Black that if White develops normally, Black really has no issues. That’s why a move like 6.h4 is played! White must get creative to hit at Black in an attempt to punish them for slow and automatic chess!

[outer lance]

Black doesn't have many good options to defend their B.
In other openings, what are we attacking / threatening to attack with h4 ?

Could be other reasons to play h4 too, but I think at our level we only need one good reason, especially in the opening.

[faint gorge]

But that is a diffcult position for players to vote. You would have a hard plan for pushing a flank pawn in the opening. Nf3 looks more natural to me

Just like in vishy game

Vishy played c4 and world team leads to risky positions lead to english-sicilian opening

And ppl say the move is best but many of you still didnt buy it
And THAT LEADs to a QUICK LoSs.

[compact gale]

Hard plan from Coach Dane: https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/pgn/3eYKzRo7ki/analysis

[barren hatch]

I won't lie, Nf3 is the more natural move, it addressed an immediate problem—h4 is a positional move that puts long term pressure on black in a round-about way.

[compact gale]

We can play h4 then Nf3 or Nf3 then h4

Otherwise we give black equality, the goal of every player on the black side.

[vagrant pelican]

Why is that? Ohh, because of Qa5+ ?

[barren hatch]

Yes, Qa5+ is why you don't want to put anything on the 5th rank too early.

that being said, Qxh5 hangs a queen.

[vagrant pelican]

It was a more disorganized effort against Anand, I hear. We had much better performance against Magnus. Although, Magnus probably didn’t play the best moves

[vagrant pelican]

I mean eventually. We’re talking about if 6.. Nf6 happens. That square is defended twice by us but eventually it loses to Qa5+

[compact gale]

No, not b/c of Qa5+. Sorry, I need to take a break for up to an hour.

[vagrant pelican]

Ok i am sorry

[outer lance]

Just had a look at a few opening in the database, and eventually but fairly quickly h4 is played in all the main lines I looked at so far.
So, we may as well play it as early as possible.

[faint gorge]

Then you will have a hard time to convince others to vote h4 based on yesterdays performance

[vagrant pelican]

h5 square is defended three times by us. So why 6.. Nf6 prevents it?

[vagrant pelican]

I am hoping after today’s education, more people will be open to h4 in the next move

[outer lance]

Yes, agreed.
But some of those votes for Bd3 were almost certainly shill accounts.

[faint gorge]

Not to mention not many of us joined this discord team

You would also needs to convince in cc team regularly

[outer lance]

Bye for now.

[compact gale]

We do, but we seriously need additonal person power to join us. We are a team. We need to get behind a move by polling and discussion, and then sell it on chess.com. Have you seen any of our posts?

[cunning mortar]

Is there a channel to see the current position

[inner iron]

This is the current board position. He just played 5... Bg6 and it's our move 6.

[vagrant pelican]

But will Gotham play 6.. Nf6? Isn’t 6.. Nd7 better for him to avoid Ne5?

[drifting kiln]

oof hopefully h4 makes it

i do admit though, i accidentally forgot to read the decision and also voted Nf3 lol

[compact gale]

Nf3 will win move 6 on cc

Time to switch horses

[compact gale]

I'm going to update our recommendations, switching to support for 6 Nf3 intending 7 h4 and the same line as before

[compact gale]

latest update of recommendation:

If GothamChess plays 5 .. Bg6, we play 6 Nf3 (now having a large lead over 6 h4) which develops our knight toward the center and defends our d4 pawn. This is an excellent prelude to 7 h4 threatening Gotham's Bg6 with capture after h4 - h5. 7 h6 is best, and then we intend to exchange the light square bishops with Bd3, recapturing with our queen and then castling queen side. Note that h4 contributes to king-side attacks.

[river prawn]

No. 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.h4 Nh5 is the only way to stop h5, and it’s not a good idea.

Yeah, we’re not going to be able to play 7.h4

It’s not even close

At least this time after 6..Nd7 7.Bd3 is good

[compact gale]

We will probably need to recommend that since it is clearly best, but can give a backup (not as good) recommendation on move 7.

[river prawn]

6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bd3, 7.Bc4, and 7.Bf4 are all good

This is exactly what I predicted

We’re unable to convince players to play something unusual

[compact gale]

7 Bd3 doesnt lose a pawn, but the stats are dismal for us, with black winning more often than white.

[river prawn]

What are you talking about 7.Bd3 is fine

What database are you using

Look, 7.Bd3 is very intuitive

Lot less likely for the low Elo players to screw up and lose

6.Nf3 Nd7 will be likely

[compact gale]

I am using both lichess, chess.com opening explorers with Master stats. Coach Dane's recommendation.

What are you looking at?

[river prawn]

I’m using lichess, limited to 2020 and more recent

7.Bd3 is simple and strong

Plus people keep demanding it even when it’s not good

And the best part is we don’t have to worry about people spamming Bxg6 on every move, because it’s always perfectly fine, and it’s also always perfectly fine not to play Bxg6

[compact gale]

It isn't good at all.

[river prawn]

Look, I care about what limits another situation like what we encountered yesterday

Bd3 is just as good as any other move in the position

And we have to accept that h4 is out of the question

Also 7.Bd3 has way less theory

[compact gale]

You and I disagree on this. Move 7 polls coming to help us resolve the teams decision.

[river prawn]

This is not about what is the objectively best move in the position

I know h4 is better

But we’re dealing with a bunch of 300 Elo players here

Look, I want h4 to win, I will vote for 7.h4, but it won’t win

I’m just being realistic here

[compact gale]

Let's see what the discord team wants to recommend. Earlier people were happy with deferring h4 until after Nf3.

[river prawn]

Even before people started botting, all of our chat messages had basically zero effect on the margin between Bd3 and Ng3

[river prawn]

I am in complete agreement with you, I want to play h4, I’ve always wanted to play h4

I just don’t think it will win

I still think we should recommend h4

[compact gale]

We still need to do the polls, but I think 7 h4 will win all of them

[river prawn]

I agree, but it won’t win in the game

People seem to love Bd3 over and over

[compact gale]

You may very well be right, but speaking for myself, I can't recommend for a move I think is clearly inferior, unless I am forced to vote for the best of the rest that has a chance to win.

[river prawn]

I agree

We should still vote for 7.h4

Because this is fundamentally different from move 5

Because in that case it was a battle between an obviously bad move and a good move

And after 6.Nf3 Nd7, pretty much any move is good

We see people voting for 6.Bf4, 6.Bc4, 6.Bd3, and after 6.Nf3 Nd7, every single one of those are good

So vote for 7.h4 with the knowledge that even if it doesn’t win, whatever wins instead will be fine

[compact gale]

Would you change anything in my suggested recommendation edit: (Note that 6 Nf3 and 6 h4 were both excellent moves)

If GothamChess plays 5 .. Bg6, we play 6 Nf3 (now having a large lead over 6 h4) which develops our knight toward the center and defends our d4 pawn. This is an excellent prelude to 7 h4 threatening Gotham's Bg6 with capture after h4 - h5. Then we intend to exchange the light square bishops with Bd3, recapturing with our queen and then castle queen side. Note that h4 contributes to king-side attacks.

[river prawn]

No, we still support 6.h4, and we should make clear that 7.h4 is because we are unable to win this time

This is because 6.Nf3 has a large lead over 6.Bd3

If it were closer, I would throw our support behind 6.Nf3 to stop 6.Bd3, but if we do that now, we look like bandwagoners

We have to stay true to our beliefs

So explain to 6.h4 voters that they can still get what they want with 7.h4

And hopefully we will win on our second chance

[compact gale]

Please show your suggested edit

[river prawn]

Give me a minute

[compact gale]

Please show your suggested edit

By the way, I wasn't aware of the lichess Since/Until filter. Thanks!

[river prawn]

If GothamChess plays 5 .. Bg6, we play 6 h4, threatening 7.h5, trapping the bishop. When GothamChess plays 6..h6, we defend the pawn with 7.Nf3 and then push 8.h5, answering 8..Bh7 with 9.Bd3. We then recapture 9..Bxd3 10.Qxd3 and then play 11.Bd2 and 12.0-0-0, preparing a kingside pawn storm if GothamChess castles kingside. By playing h4 and h5, we have already begun the kingside pawn storm.

wait i meant to add more

[compact gale]

The reasoning I had for switching was it was an equally good move and gives more time to sell h4 after Nf3

[river prawn]

we have to be very clear why we are switching

If GothamChess plays 5 .. Bg6, we play 6 h4, threatening 7.h5, trapping the bishop. When GothamChess plays 6..h6 to allow the bishop to retreat to h7, we defend the d4 pawn with 7.Nf3 and then push 8.h5, answering 8..Bh7 with 9.Bd3. We have to play 7.Nf3 before Bd3 to prevent Qxd4. We then recapture 9..Bxd3 10.Qxd3 and then play 11.Bd2 and 12.0-0-0, preparing a kingside pawn storm if GothamChess castles kingside. By playing h4 and h5, we have already begun the kingside pawn storm. Also, by castling queenside, we can castle to the side where we have not pushed pawns in front of the king.

However, currently 6.Nf3 is leading by a large margin, and it appears unlikely that 6.h4 will win. In addition, 6.h4 has a narrow lead over 6.Bd3, which would lose a pawn to 6..Qxd4, just like on the previous move. Right now, people who support 6.h4 should vote 6.Nf3 in order to prevent 6.Bd3 from winning, although the margin is much wider than on move 5.

6.Nf3 has several possible replies, usually 6..Nd7, but sometimes 6..Nf6 or 6..e6. Against all of those replies, we can still play 7.h4, and then transpose back to the line suggested earlier.

tl;dr: vote 6.Nf3 to stop 6.Bd3, if you support 6.h4 vote 7.h4 after 6.Nf3 wins.

how does that look

[naive marten]

Nf6 and e6 aren't as good as 6... Nd7 because they both allow Ne5

[river prawn]

right, which is why I expect 6..Nd7

[naive marten]

theres nothing wrong with not entering h4 lines

[river prawn]

i mean we should, I just don't think it will work

with 6.Nf3 we have a second chance

oh look, even 7.c3 is perfectly fine

i mean look at how intuitive this is
https://lichess.org/Nwp6Lfzh

[coral bramble]

Matúsek, Ján (2278) vs. Solar, Jan (2257)

Move List

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. c3 Nf6 7. Nf3 Nbd7 8. Bd3 Bxd3 9. Qxd3 e6 10. O-O Bd6 11. Ne4 Nxe4 12. Qxe4 Nf6 13. Qe2 O-O 14. Bg5 Re8 15. Rad1 h6 16. Bh4 Be7 17. Rd3 Nd5 18. Bg3 Bd6 19. Re1 b5 20. Bxd6 Qxd6 21. g3 a5 22. Rdd1 Rac8 23. Ne5 Nb6 24. a3 Qc7 25. Nd3 a4 26. Qf3 Red8 27. Re4 Nc4 28. Re2 Qe7 29. Rde1 Qf6 30. Qe4 g6 31. f4 Qf5 32. Qf3 h5 33. Rf2 Kg7 34. Qe2 Nb6 35. Ne5 Nd5 36. Qf1 Qf6 37. Nd3 Nb6 38. Qg2 Nd5 39. h3 Rh8 40. Ree2 Rh7 41. Nc5 Nb6 42. Qf1 Rhh8 43. Re5 Rce8 44. Qg2 Nd5 45. Kh2 Rc8 46. Qf1 Nb6 47. Qe2 Rce8 

[river prawn]

that was actually 6.c3

see, this is why GothamChess should not have played the Caro-Kann

because it gives us tons of good options

[naive marten]

Nd2/Nc3 isn't one of them

these lines are pretty drawish

[river prawn]

after 6.Nf3 Nd7, 7.h4, 7.Bc4, 7.Bd3, 7.Bf4, 7.c3 are all good

[river prawn]

not if we can convince people to play 7.h4 and castle queenside

[naive marten]

how do you define good

not worse?

[naive marten]

they are still drawish

ive studied them

black's the one who chooses to make the game interesting

[compact gale]

How do you use these d**n things? How do you easily load the game somewhere?

[river prawn]

idk i just got here

[coral bramble]

xurramid77 (2758) vs. DuRo1988 (2600)

Move List

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Ng3 Ngf6 6. Nf3 c5 7. Bc4 cxd4 8. Nxd4 e6 9. O-O Bc5 10. Bxe6 fxe6 11. Nxe6 Qe7 12. Re1 Bxf2+ 13. [Kxf2] 

[naive marten]

oh that worked

just paste a link

[inner iron]

The problem is, when you try to make any moves on the board, or scroll through them, it says the game you tried to control belongs to XXX, who chose to make this game view private... therefore, not sure how beneficial it is.

[naive marten]

oh

[river prawn]

I would like to make games public but I don't know how

[river prawn]

i did

[inner iron]

me either, trying to figure that out now.

[river prawn]

anyway

we need to explain that this isn't about following theory, because 6.h4 and 6.Nf3 both have plenty of theory behind them

This is about the fundamental direction of the game

Here's what I posted

This is not about whether we are playing h4 or not, on this move or the next move, this is about a fundamental decision in the future of the game. If we play h4, we are committed to castling queenside, as our kingside is weak. If we don't play h4, we should castle kingside. Levy will probably castle kingside, so we should plan for that.

If we castle kingside, we can play standard development with Bd3, 0-0, Bf4, etc., and play a calm positional game.

However, if we castle queenside, we should start pushing pawns on the kingside to attack Levy's king. This means playing Ne4 to allow the g-pawn to move, and then pushing g4. If Levy takes it, we have a half-open g-file that we can move a rook to in order to attack the king. These ideas have been tested by high-level players and are aggressive but accurate.

tl;dr: play h4 for an aggressive, tactical game, play Nf3 for a positional game.

[compact gale]

Yeah, ignore Albert the useless bot, and use the link typed by the message poster

[river prawn]

In the game I shared, white played an early c3 and Nf3 and was still perfectly fine

[naive marten]

but h4 isn't an aggressive game

[river prawn]

yes it is

you castle queenside and pawn storm

[naive marten]

sample line?

would you suggest 11. Bf4 or 11. Bd2?

[river prawn]

6.Nf3 Nd7 7.h4 h6 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 11.Bd2 Ngf6 12.0-0-0 Be7 13.Kb1 0-0 14.Ne4 c5 15.g4!?

[compact gale]

If you are happy with at most a draw

[river prawn]

11.Bd2

[naive marten]

14... Nxe4 is the main line there

[river prawn]

because 11.Bf4 Qa5+ 12.Bd2 Bb4 13.c3 Be7 14.c4 Qc7 15.0-0-0 is not very intuitive

[river prawn]

not recently no

14..c5 has become more common

[naive marten]

its the drawish line

[river prawn]

no

oh

you mean 14..Nxe4 is the drawish line

yes, that's correct

[river prawn]

look, the way we're going, I'd consider ourselves very lucky to get a draw

the most important thing is not which move is marginally better, but avoiding obviously bad moves

[naive marten]

why?

so you just wantt o kill the game

[river prawn]

look at how close 5.Bd3 was to winning

[naive marten]

4... Bf5 did kinda kill the game

[river prawn]

look at how many people are voting for 6.Bd3, which is bad for the exact same reason

[naive marten]

so

[river prawn]

im not talking about the botting, 5.Bd3 was consistently within 400 votes even before that

[naive marten]

theres pretty much no point even to this match

[river prawn]

yes there is

as long as we play h4

then it will be interesting, unless GothamChess heads for one of the queen trade draw lines

and I don't think GothamChess will do that

because that would be GothamChess deliberately playing for a draw

[compact gale]

Long, but probably worth it. I like it.

[river prawn]

We have to explain our general plan to castle queenside

And pawn storm

Else h4 just looks dumb

And we have to explain to people that a vote for 7.h4 is a vote for 6.h4

Look

We’ll need to convince at least 2000 6.Nf3 voters to support 7.h4

Or hope that they get splintered between 7.Bc4, 7.Bf4, and 7.Bd3

[compact gale]

May I ask what your playing strength/rating is? You feel stronger than "advertised."

[river prawn]

But with the current margins, 7.h4 has no chance of winning

[river prawn]

I was 2000 on lichess on my old account, which I made before coming out as trans. It used my deadname, which is why I created a new account. About 6 months ago, I made a promise to myself to play on sparkchess.com to try to hit 2000, which I had tried to do before. I have 1500 games on that site (about 700 in the past 3 months), but I’m still stuck at 1850.

My chess.com rating is 620 because I have two rated games against a 400 because I accidentally played rated games instead of casual games during a friendly match. Those are my only rated games on chess.com, so my 620 rating is not accurate.

In addition, I am probably better than 2000 lichess because I have continued to play in the 2 years since I stopped playing on my old account. Once I hit 2000 on sparkchess, I will return to lichess.

I joined this server for the vote chess game. Currently, I do not play rated games on chess.com.

I do play variants. I am 2200 in atomic blitz, 2100 in duck chess blitz, and 1900 in chess with checkers blitz, which is the closest parallel.

Also, I play on ICCF, which is correspondence chess where engines are allowed. I know how to recognize which games in the Lichess Masters Database are games from ICCF where engines are allowed. Every game I have linked in this chat is an ICCF game. That is why I feel confident when I say that certain lines work, because someone with an engine played them against someone else with an engine. In fact, white has actually managed to win some games, despite both players having engines.

I have not used an engine for this game, I am merely relying on games where other players used engines, which is perfectly allowed.

[compact gale]

Thanks, my spidey sense was correct, I just wasn't quite sure what range you might be other than significantly higher. Thanks for sharing that, it gives me helpful context. I joned chess.com for the vote chess as well. I did give chess.com my ancient USCF rating from 45 years ago of 1867.

[river prawn]

I didn’t give chess.com my USCF rating. It’s somewhere around 1400 but I haven’t played any rated USCF games in 2 and a half years

Also I’m 2425 on ICCF

See, this is how we win against GothamChess

If we want to win, we use the tools available

As for the concepts behind 6.h4 and 6.Nf3, I’ve known that for a while

And also I’m fairly good at recognizing voting patterns

I’m on a politics server

[compact gale]

That is correspondence chess? That sounds very impressive!

[river prawn]

I predicted that 6.Nf3 would win over 6.h4

[compact gale]

When did you predict it?

OK, I'm going to use your recommendation text for 6 h4. OK to use w/o attribution or would you prefer that?

[river prawn]

#next-move-discussion message

[river prawn]

Don’t use my attribution because I’m rated 620 on chess.com and I won’t be taken seriously

[compact gale]

Where did you post that?

[river prawn]

On the private chat forum for the game

The point is

I’m calling it right now

7.h4 is not going to win no matter how much we post in the chat, how much we try to convince people

People will vote for 7.Bd3 just like they voted for 6.Bd3 and 5.Bd3

And 7.Bc4 and 7.Bf4 are also good

See, the trick to daily games is using an engine without using an engine

I need to catch up on my ICCF games, none of which are relevant to the current game

I only have one Caro-Kann, and it deviated at 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5

Ping me if it’s something important

[compact gale]

OK, that is far too tempting to ask about. How do you do that?

[river prawn]

Look at games where someone else used an engine

No rule against that

[faint gorge]

Whats ICCF

[river prawn]

anyway, here's a recent ICCF win:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 e6 6. e3 c5 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8. O-O Be7 9. Qe2 cxd4 10. Rd1 O-O 11. Nxd4 Qc7 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13. a5 Bd7 14. e4 Rfd8 15. f4 e5 16. f5 Be8 17. Rf1 Bc5+ 18. Kh1 Rd4 19. g4 Nxg4 20. b3 Nf6 21. Be3 Rad8 22. Rg1 Bf8 23. Rg2 c5 24. Bxd4 cxd4 25. Nd5 Nxd5 26. Bxd5 Rxd5 27. exd5 f6 28. Qc4 Qd8 29. Kg1 Bf7 30. Rc1 h5 31. b4 Bxd5 32. Qc8 Qd6 33. Qc7 Qxb4 34. Rxg7+ Bxg7 35. Qd8+ Kh7 36. Qxd5 Qd2 37. Rf1 a6 38. Kh1 Qe2 39. Qg2 Qxg2+ 40. Kxg2 Bf8 41. Rb1 e4 42. Kf1 d3 43. Rb6 Kg7 44. h4 Kf7 45. Ke1 Kg8 46. Kd1 Kf7 47. Re6 Bb4 48. Rxe4 Bxa5 49. Ra4 Bc7 50. Kd2 a5 51. Kxd3 Ke7 52. Ke4 Kd6 53. Rc4 Bb6 54. Rc8 Bf2 55. Ra8 Be1 56. Ra7 Kc5 57. Ra6 Bc3 58. Kd3 Kb5 59. Re6 Bb2 60. Re8 Kc6 61. Ra8 Be5 62. Rxa5 Bg3 63. Ke4 Bxh4 64. Ra1 Bg5 65. Rh1 h4 66. Ra1 1-0

[compact gale]

Is that PGN compatible?

[river prawn]

yes

I just can't post files atm

wait

i removed identifying information from the game, let me import it into lichess and link that

[compact gale]

Oh, lichess will import that?

[river prawn]

no, but that's because i took a PGN and "shook it down for parts"
I imported the original PGN

https://lichess.org/2lfA7K6E

[coral bramble]

? vs. ?

Move List

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 e6 6. e3 c5 7. Bxc4 Nc6 8. O-O Be7 9. Qe2 cxd4 10. Rd1 O-O 11. Nxd4 Qc7 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13. a5 Bd7 14. e4 Rfd8 15. f4 e5 16. f5 Be8 17. Rf1 Bc5+ 18. Kh1 Rd4 19. g4 Nxg4 20. b3 Nf6 21. Be3 Rad8 22. Rg1 Bf8 23. Rg2 c5 24. Bxd4 cxd4 25. Nd5 Nxd5 26. Bxd5 Rxd5 27. exd5 f6 28. Qc4 Qd8 29. Kg1 Bf7 30. Rc1 h5 31. b4 Bxd5 32. Qc8 Qd6 33. Qc7 Qxb4 34. Rxg7+ Bxg7 35. Qd8+ Kh7 36. Qxd5 Qd2 37. Rf1 a6 38. Kh1 Qe2 39. Qg2 Qxg2+ 40. Kxg2 Bf8 41. Rb1 e4 42. Kf1 d3 43. Rb6 Kg7 44. h4 Kf7 45. Ke1 Kg8 46. Kd1 Kf7 47. Re6 Bb4 48. Rxe4 Bxa5 49. Ra4 Bc7 50. Kd2 a5 51. Kxd3 Ke7 52. Ke4 Kd6 53. Rc4 Bb6 54. Rc8 Bf2 55. Ra8 Be1 56. Ra7 Kc5 57. Ra6 Bc3 58. Kd3 Kb5 59. Re6 Bb2 60. Re8 Kc6 61. Ra8 Be5 62. Rxa5 Bg3 63. Ke4 Bxh4 64. Ra1 Bg5 65. Rh1 h4 66. Ra1 

[river prawn]

In this game, I actually claimed a win using tablebases, because I wasn’t going to play another 30 moves of a clearly winning endgame

[compact gale]

That is allowed in ICCF ? But not on chess.com dailies or vote, I believe.

[river prawn]

Correct

I’ve only done it 3 times

Usually when my opponent won’t resign in a clearly lost position

7k/8/p2p4/P6B/3p4/6K1/8/8 b - - 0 39

Oh come on, Albert won’t recognize FENs?

[river prawn]

Let’s be real here, we should be planning for 6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bd3

[compact gale]

Why not 6 .. e6 or 6 .. Nf6?

[river prawn]

Because those are uncommon due to not stopping Ne5

Levy doesn’t know that 7.h4 isn’t going to win

6..Nd7 is played in about 70-85% of high-level games, depending on the database

If 6.Nf3 e6, or 6.Nf3 Nf6, 7.h4 h6 8.Ne5 is strong

And since Levy doesn’t know that 7.h4 isn’t going to win, we can assume he won’t allow 7.h4 h6 8.Ne5

This only works if Levy doesn’t know

So make sure he doesn’t find out that 7.h4 has no chance of winning

[outer lance]

This sounds interesting, in a good way, if allowed?
I won't be doing this myself until we get confirmation from chess.com support.

[river prawn]

Opening database is opening database

Game is game

Who cares where that game came from

After all, GMs develop prep by using engines

The rules are perfectly clear

“It is OK to discuss opening lines found in game databases (including win/draw/loss statistics) and strategies for using opening databases in club forums. But the same as all games on Chess.com, engines and outside help are not allowed.”

These games are in a database

This is all irrelevant anyway because we’re still well in theory anyway

Here’s a OTB game between two Super GMs who prepared this line before the game, likely with engines
https://lichess.org/B0WvMHn3

[coral bramble]

Morozevich, Alexander (2743) vs. Ponomariov, Ruslan (2722)

Move List

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Ng5 Qxg5 12. Qf3 O-O-O 13. Bxe6+ fxe6 14. Qxc6 Qxe5 15. b4 Qd5 16. Qxd5 exd5 17. bxc5 dxc3 18. Nb3 d4 19. Ba3 g6 20. Bb4 Bg7 21. a4 d3 22. axb5 d2 23. bxa6 c2 24. Nxd2 Bxa1 25. Rxa1 Rhe8 26. Rc1 Re4 27. Bc3 Rc4 28. Rxc2 Rd3 29. Rb2 Rcxc3 30. a7 Ra3 31. Rb8+ Kd7 32. a8=Q Rxa8 33. Rxa8 Rxd2 34. g4 Kc6 35. Kg2 Kxc5 36. Kg3 Rd7 37. f4 Kd4 38. Ra1 Rf7 39. Rd1+ Ke3 40. Re1+ Kd4 41. Rd1+ 

[river prawn]

And here’s two players in the same line except this time they have access to engines during the game

https://lichess.org/NPpcbwFj

[coral bramble]

Aragonés Cerezo, Gonzalo (2181) vs. Beveridge, Colin (2247)

Move List

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Ng5 Qxg5 12. Qf3 O-O-O 13. Bxe6+ fxe6 14. Qxc6 Qxe5 15. b4 Qd5 16. Qxd5 exd5 17. bxc5 dxc3 18. Nb3 d4 19. Ba3 c2 20. Bb4 Rd5 21. Rfe1 a5 22. Bxa5 Bxc5 23. a4 Kd7 24. axb5 Rb8 25. Bd2 Rxb5 26. Nxc5+ Rdxc5 27. f4 Rd5 28. Kf2 d3 29. g4 

[river prawn]

The line is completely blurred

I will at least say this

I will not suggest a move just because someone with an engine played it once, I will look at that move and justify it

[outer lance]

ok, sounds good.
Since I read these recent comments I have been trying to find some moves that avoid pushing h4, and are still likely sound for White.

It is funny to me that we may have to find a way to promote a4, if we don't think h4 has much of a chance in the near future.

Below is the best looking line I can find so far, if we don't want to push any a or h pawns in the near future / opening:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bf4 Ngf6 8.Bd3 e6 9.O-O ...

. Black would have to play into this line too, and I don't know how likely that is ?
. OC we shouldn't plan too far ahead, in this type of game since out team may want to play another move/line.

[river prawn]

Why would we ever play a4

Also, I think 7.Bd3 is more likely to be voted for

Look at how many people are already voting for 5.Bd3 and 6.Bd3

[outer lance]

Exactly, it is likely inferior to play a4 now, at least when compared to h4,
But I am not afraid to look at any move in the opening database, if I think our main idea of h4 is possibly a lost cause.

How about this one then, so that we include 7. Bd3:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bd3 Ngf6 8.Bg5 Bxd3 9.Qxd3 e6 10.O-O-O

.It was only played once in the database I am using, and the game ended in a draw.
.At the bare minimum we need something like this, as a backup.
. I think lower rated players are generally advised to favor K side castling, so that could be possibly be another hurdle for us?

[river prawn]

Those low Elo players are going to unite behind 8.Bxg6

“Ooh doubled pawns”

It’s not even a bad move tho

We just play the exact same way

[river prawn]

No, without h4, kingside castling is perfect.

In fact, we should kingside castle if we don’t play h4

[outer lance]

It may even be better than what I suggested.
Here is one possible continuation/opening if we end up taking the B to double the pawns.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bd3 Ngf6 8.Bxg6 hxg6 9.O-O e6 10.c4

[river prawn]

Wait never mind

Ignore that line I messed up 0-0 isn’t possible

The bishop is still on f8

Another idea is c4-b3-Bb2

This also stops Qb6-Qxb2 ideas

Look, this is a Caro-Kann

If we don’t go for h4-h5, we have tons of ideas

Because there are no black pawns on d5 or e5

It’s a very flexible position for both sides

[river prawn]

Continuing that line, 10.c4 Be7 11.b3 0-0 12.Bb2 Qc7 13.Re1 Rfe8 14.Qc2 Rad8 15.Rad1

So simple even a 300 could understand it

[outer lance]

Yes, definitely true.
| was just happy that Bd3 didn't win last turn, and likely won't win this turn.

[river prawn]

Right, but 7.Bd3 is fine

This setup is so simple

Develop the bishops, move the queen to connect the rooks, and then put the rooks in the center

GothamChess would be proud

If you took a game like this and showed it to GothamChess for a video, he would be complimenting the opening

This is doing everything you teach beginners to do

Step 1: develop your knights
Step 2: develop your bishops
Step 3: castle
Step 4: connect your rooks
Step 5: centralize your rooks

And we have tons of ways to vary the move order

[outer lance]

And the other big + probably not as tough as convincing people to play h4, still not a cakewalk OC.

[river prawn]

We can delay Bxg6

[river prawn]

Not an issue, we have tons of possible move orders

We don’t even have to convince anyone to play a certain move that doesn’t make sense over a move that seems logical

This is not about playing the best move, it’s about playing with who you’ve got

And these moves are just as good as the best moves

GothamChess gave us this opportunity by choosing the Caro-Kann

If this were 1.e4 e5 this idea of moving pieces around wouldn’t work

We can play Qc2 before or after Re1

We can play Bxg6 at any point

We can play Re1 or Rd1 first

I recommend b3 Bb2 over Bf4 because it stops Qb6-Qxb2

Look, it would be nice to play an aggressive game with h4, but we have to accept that people want a positional game with Nf3

[outer lance]

I agree, all the things you said make sense to me.

GN, going to go now, it was a nice chat,

[river prawn]

Here is a simple plan that even 300 Elo players can understand.

Step 1: Defend the d4 pawn.

We have seen tons of players voting for 6.Bd3 and 5.Bd3, which hangs the d4 pawn. A simple solution is to play 6.Nf3, which defends the pawn.

Step 2: Castle

We would like to castle kingside, but the bishop is in the way. So, when GothamChess plays 6..Nd7, we play 7.Bd3. After 7..e6, we play 8.Bxg6 to give GothamChess doubled pawns, and after 8..hxg6, we play 9. 0-0

Step 3: Develop Bishops

We already traded off one bishop, but we need to develop the other bishop. The logical square is f4, but when we move the bishop to f4, b2 is undefended and GothamChess can play Qb6 to attack it. Thus, we should play b3 and then Bb2. We should also play c4 to control the center and prevent GothamChess from putting a knight on d5. We should play c4 before Bb2 so that GothamChess cannot play Nd5 c4 Nf4.

Step 4/5: Connect and Centralize the rooks.

Now that we have played c4, we can put the queen on c2, where it will be safe from the d-file opening and GothamChess putting a rook on d8. Next, we can move the f1 rook to e1 and the a1 rook to d1. With that, the opening will be complete and we will have well-placed pieces. Here’s what that looks like.

6.Nf3 (Step 1 Complete) Nd7 7. Bd3 e6 8. Bxg6 hxg6 9. 0-0 (Step 2 Complete) Ngf6 10. c4 Be7 11. b3 0-0 12. Bb2 (step 3 complete) Qc7 13. Qc2 (Step 4 Complete) Rfe8 14.Rfe1 Rad8 15.Rad1 (Step 5 Complete)

[river prawn]

It’s so simple

[slow breach]

Hello team! It looks like 6. Nf3 is running away with the vote. This means Ntirlis clever analysis after 6. h4! h6 7. Be3!? is now out the window as he deliberately avoids committing the knight to f3 unless he has more concrete information. This is by no means the end of the world, it just means we have narrowed our options to doing our best to make sure 7. h4! is played on the next move. If we can accomplish 7. h4, then we have quite a bit of opening analysis and Grandmaster practice to support our decision making. I'll add a little bit of analysis to branch out what we are trying to achieve in the main lines, but I won't deep dive unless at least 7. h4 crosses the finish line. Worst case scenario, we fail to convince enough people to play the main line ideas and we'll need to "freestyle" quite a bit earlier than necessary, but just like the Magnus game, we can unite around reasonable moves and share "anti-candidate moves."

Before we assume that scenario, I strongly recommend communicating and supporting 7. h4 (I'll make a comment about 6. h4 in the game chat as well) so we can use the "opening serve" of the White pieces to our advantage.

[faint gorge]

h4 gives an edge but like today, yall will have a hard time to convince them

Theoretically its best but ppl refer simple developing move like Nf3 Bd3

[vagrant pelican]

Thanks Coach. Yes that’s the plan. 7 h4 is leading in our polls and we’ll likely recommend that but given the voting pattern in the game, it’s not likely to win

Lily here has discussed a lot of interesting ideas that we can still pursue if we’re not able to get in h4 at all

[river prawn]

It’s not “a lot of interesting ideas”, it’s a positional setup

Another idea is we can play Qe2 instead of Qc2

Anything to get the queen off of the d-file

But we have to play b3-Bb2 because we’re castling kingside

This is easy to explain, just tell people not to hang the b2 pawn

7.Bd3 will probably win regardless of what we do

As will 8.Bxg6

Also, Bf4 isn’t actually that bad

Because we can play Qe2, and then respond to Qxb2 with Rfb1-Rxb7

The only issue is we’re basically waiting for GothamChess to do something, but he will do something

And the best part is with this, there’s no move that low Elo players will support that’s objectively bad

The low Elo players finally get to play their Bd3

We get a nice calm middlegame with better space and better pawn structure

Everyone’s happy

[faint gorge]

:D

[slow breach]

I just posted a rather involved message in the game forum explaining the reasoning behind 6. h4! and 7. h4! Hopefully we can gain some traction with these ideas.

[barren hatch]

Is it in one of the discord channels?

[river prawn]

you're assuming we're working with decent players. I know that is not true.

Even if we can convince people to go along with 7.h4 h6 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 11.Bd2 Ngf6 12.0-0-0 Be7, we are still in a very complicated middlegame

I assume you have planned either 13.Ne4 or 13.Kb1, but then what? GothamChess is not going to go for 13.Ne4 Nxe4 14.Qxe4 Nf6 15.Qe2 Qd5 16.Kb1 Qe4 17.Qxe4 Nxe4 or 13.Kb1 0-0 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Nf6 16.Qe2 Qd5 17.Ne5 Qe4 18.Qxe4 Nxe4

I expect 13.Kb1 0-0 14. Ne4 Qb6, where both 15.Nxf6+ Nxf6 16.g4!? and 15.g4!? lead to very complicated positions.

[slow breach]

I added it to the game chat on Chess.com

[barren hatch]

Found it and read it.

The problem is the population, we basically played a line which requires a long-term positional approach with a bunch of players who rely on one-move attacks. I voted for h4 this round but it seems like it appears to not do anything and thus since much of the voting public is sub 600 and not really reading any of the advice and don't understand positional play, we are probably going to play 6.Nf3 7.Bd3 8.O-O

[river prawn]

I think they’ll play 8.Bxg6 over 8.0-0

“Ooh doubled pawns”

Either way, we’re not worse

But we’re not better either

That’s why I suggested a 10 move plan

Moves that we should play within the next 10 moves

And the best part is we don’t have to play them in one specific order

Think of it as a checklist

[slow breach]

We are definitely playing with a wide variety of playing strengths and experiences, as was the case with our Magnus match. I think the main point is for the involved, invested players not to get discouraged, but rather, continue to light a candle and not curse the darkness. Continue to inform the game chat of our discussions and invite them to join a more robust conversation. Will we likely play 6. h4 on this move? Perhaps not. Is it possible we won't play 7. h4 if 6. Nf3 wins? We might not play that move. That's OK. The game will continue.

When things started to go off the rails with the Magnus game, we started to really focus on uniting around a reasonable move and clearly sharing "anti-candidate moves." In this sense, if we play Nf3 and Bd3, for example, we might encounter a situation where we will want to castle. This will be an opportunity to focus on castling as our candidate move, and highlighting "NOT Bxg6" as an "anti-candidate" move. We used this strategy quite effectively against Magnus, and even when the anti-positional ...c7-c5?? was finally made, we continued to inform, encourage, and do our best to unite as a team. If we're capable of doing that against Magnus, I think we will still have our chances even if we make an inaccuracy or four. Let's have fun and let's continue to work together! 🙂

Since we played Fischer Random against Magnus, we didn't encounter issues with people tuning out of "opening theory" discussion. This appears to be the case here. We'll soon transition "out of book," and then our "freestyling" begins as a team, which we can use our experience from that game to help us navigate this rocky terrain.

[river prawn]

I disagree with being extremely anti-Bxg6. It’s perfectly fine if we do play it and perfectly fine if we don’t play it

7.Bd3 is perfectly fine, we just have to castle kingside and play positionally

here's the thing, we will not be able to stop low Elo players from playing Bxg6 eventually

but it's not even that bad

however

if GothamChess ever plays Bxd3, that's also fine

[river prawn]

Even 6.Bc4 is ahead of 6.h4 😭

[vagrant pelican]

Is 7 h4 still effective after 6… Nf6?

[pale rover]

why we playing nf3 😭

[hoary cypress]

yea after black plays 6.Nd7 or 6.Nf6

[vagrant pelican]

6… Nd7 i understand but if 6… Nf6, then black can block h5 by going Nh5

I know he’s not likely to play 6… Nf6 but I am trying to understand how 7 h4 helps in that particular line

[river prawn]

Not an issue

[hoary cypress]

if 6 Nf3 wasn't played then it wouldn't be a problem

then we could perhaps do Nxh5

[river prawn]

6.Nf3 Nf6 7.h4 Nh5 8.Nxh5 Bxh5 9.Be2 followed by Bf4, Qd2, 0-0-0, and pawn storming the kingside

[hoary cypress]

works perfectly fine

[hoary cypress]

i have seen games where Bd2 is played but then we would have to castle kingside

but i suppose that's not what we want to do

[river prawn]

This is pointless for 3 reasons

1. GothamChess is not going to play 6..Nf6
2. We are not going to play 7.h4
3. GothamChess is not going to play 7..Nh5

We need to accept that 7.h4 doesn’t have enough support

[river prawn]

Why castle kingside after playing h4

[vagrant pelican]

Yes. We are preparing for three possible moves by black (even though Nd7 is highly likely) and we’ll have recommendations for all those moves. So just trying to understand and learn the ideas

[river prawn]

I finally snapped lol

You know what my proposed system is? It is Big Sis Lily BABYSITTING all of you low Elo players to prevent you from hanging pawns and pieces in the first 15 moves so we can reach an equal middlegame. I am disgusted that 6. Bd3 is in second place while 6. h4 is in fourth. Clearly, you all cannot be trusted.

[maiden pagoda]

everyone in the discord polls is saying h4 then in the game people are saying Bd3

mfs saying Bd3 even tho its been said a million times that it hangs a pawn

[hoary cypress]

Clearly it wasn't everyone who voted for 6.Bd3 there were many people who voted mindlessly and I'm sure there aren't many people from THIS SERVER who voted Bd3 so I think you can trust at least the people from this server if not EVERYONE WHO VOTES including the members of this server.

[river prawn]

We’re not Low Elo, so we’re not included in “you all”

[hoary cypress]

Bd3 is going to happen on the 7th move most likely

[maiden pagoda]

why tf do people want Bd3 so badly?? 😭

[river prawn]

Trade off the g6 bishop I think

I don’t know low Elo reasoning

[hoary cypress]

lack of theory knowledge maybe...

[inner iron]

The rating shaming really should stop... Just my opinion, but blaming everything on low elo rated players doesn't solve anything. It does create a toxic or bad environment where lower elo rated players can start feeling bad about themselves simply because they have a lower rating. A lot of them are here to learn too and are voting based on what they think might be a good move. Not all of the votes for Bd3 are necessarily made by only low elo rated players either... It has been seen in a handful of master games by players rated over 2500+. Regardless, instead of blaming any bad move on low elo rated players, it would be better to encourage better moves or explain why a particular move ends up being better than another move. I know this is being done as well, but it can be done without saying stuff that make people feel bad or embarrassed about their rating... Again, just my take, but wanted to say something because If I was rated 300, then as much as I would like to learn from better players and would consider it an honor to play against Levy, I do not know if I would be able to stand the toxicity of the chat. I'm REALLY not trying to be holier than thou or be a rule stickler here... just trying to take into consideration some of the players that might not be as knowledgeable in playing chess.

[river prawn]

Look, I don't care if people play 6.Nf3 or 6.h4 because those are both good moves. What I have a problem with is people who think 6.Bd3 is a good idea because it's not. The problem is tons of people are voting without reading the chat at all.
Every single titled player is saying we should vote for 6.h4, and yet it's still not winning. I have the right to be angry at these players who vote without taking advice from higher level players. I listen to other players who are higher rated than me because I know that I don't know everything. I've checked my lines and they are effective, and I support what the titled players are saying.

The problem is many people aren't listening.

[ripe cloud]

hey chill out no need to be this aggressive

ELO shaming is not the goal here, it’s healthy discussion 🙂 let’s keep it positive

it’s not just “low rated” players, people have different opinions and it’s always better to just be constructive than to shame them. they’ll listen if you’re patient if you just call them trash they’ll get defensive

[river prawn]

im fine with honest, reasonable discussion between which of two good moves is better, im not okay with players voting for an obviously bad move.

So many people voted for 5.Bd3, and lots of people are voting for 6.Bd3

[ripe cloud]

it’s not obvious for everyone! and even if you’re not okay with it, you still can’t be rude to people over here

[river prawn]

yes, the botting made the margin on move 5 closer, but even before that, it was still consistently within 400

[ripe cloud]

plus it’s counter productive, people won’t listen if you’re just insulting them

so please keep it friendly 🙂

[river prawn]

people that vote for Bd3 aren't reading the chat anyway

[ripe cloud]

then no need to be this negative to those who are

[river prawn]

when we spent hours telling people to vote 5.Ng3 instead of 5.Bd3, the vote margin did not shift at all

[ripe cloud]

I’m asking nicely to stop the arguing move on to friendlier discussion please

[river prawn]

Fine, but I’m not apologizing

[ripe cloud]

as long as you chill from now on and stop being aggressive

thanks Lily 🙂

[river prawn]

I will chill

Let me put it this way

The odds of a mistake like 5.Bd3 are low now

[hoary cypress]

that is true

[river prawn]

I’ve checked all of the standard developing moves, none of them are bad

[hoary cypress]

votes are low asw

[river prawn]

Finally, we can debate between sensible alternatives instead of trying to stop a bad move from winning

[hoary cypress]

btw

[river prawn]

I just hope 7.h4 can win

But I’m not optimistic

[hoary cypress]

what is your main opening line?

[river prawn]

As white or as black?

[hoary cypress]

as white

and black

[river prawn]

I play 1.d4 as white, but I used to play 1.e4, so I know plenty of Caro-Kann lines. I used to play 3.Nc3, and I’ve seen this position many times as white

I always played 6.h4 because I was told that’s what you’re supposed to do

I never really understood why but I didn’t question it

[hoary cypress]

so that is why u know how to play this really well

i just play Caro-kann advanced any time i see it

[river prawn]

I’ve looked at plenty of games for lines without h4

[slow breach]

Quoting nvparanjape: "Yes. We are preparing for three possible moves by black (even though Nd7 is highly likely) and we’ll have recommendations for all those moves. So just trying to understand and learn the ideas"

I love that attitude! We're going to do our best to anticipate possible moves by Levy and try to figure out a reasonable path we are all comfortable playing. Just like in the Magnus game, we identfied candidate moves as well as "anti-candidate" moves to raise awareness to what may look tempting, but actually may not work out. Let's all learn and grow together through this game / team discussion. 🙂

[thorn yarrow]

Why is it that the variation with 6. h4 is not the most popular vote? It provokes black to weaken the kingside with 6 ... h6. Is there a reason that the team is choosing 6. Nf6? THe 6. h6 Challenges the Bishop: The primary purpose is to attack Black's light-squared bishop on g6, forcing it to a defensive square like h7.
Gains Space: The pawn advance gains space on the kingside, which can be used to support a subsequent attack or create a dominant position.
Develops the Attack: By forcing the bishop to weaken the kingside, White aims to mount a quick attack with the help of developed knights and the queen.
Positional Advantage: Even if the bishop isn't trapped, it gives White a positional justification to advance pawns and control key squares.

[river prawn]

If 7.Bd3 wins, should we frame 8.Bxg6 as an “anti-candidate” move? It’s not actually that bad.

[river prawn]

I think you mean the team is choosing 6.Nf3, not 6.Nf6

[thorn yarrow]

Yes. 6. Nf3 thank you

[slow breach]

Great question, GFun! 6. h4! is quite strong, but I think a number of less experienced players might find this move to feel rather strange and artificial. Indeed, it certainly is these things at first glance, but there is a deeper point behind the move. On the other hand, optically 6. Nf3 feels more straightforward and understandable, so that, I think, is one reason it is gaining traction. Hopefully, we can get a positive push for the h-pawn push for our next vote, but it isn't the end of the world if it doesn't happen.

[slow breach]

Hi, Lily! I'm hoping to see positive, respectful engagement with the team here. 🙂 To answer your question, if we end up reaching a castling vs Bxg6 moment, that is a good example of sharing Bxg6 as an "anti-candidate move." It doesn't mean Bxg6 is a losing blunder, but it is an example of providing a healthy move we can all unite around (castling) and share that we should avoid the tempting, but undesirable Bxg6. This is a good moment to share with less experienced players the lesson to "maintain the tension" and only to trade when it clearly favors us. This way, we help guide people toward a healthier move (castling), and suggesting we should avoid making a trade on g6 without concrete reasons.

Of course, other people may have different opinions on this matter, but this is a strategy we were able to use with success in the Magnus game. Not all "anti-candidate" moves need to be absolute blunders, but rather, are moves we'd rather not see and will try to help encourage others to consider another path. In general, our "anti-candidate" moves will often be one-move checks, unnecessary captures, or positional oversights. Helping the team practice avoiding these moves can be quite helpful and is a great way to spread awareness with chess understanding and growth.

[river prawn]

According to my analysis, we should consider playing Bxg6 eventually before Qc2-Rfe1-Rad1 to prevent Bxd3 Qxd3 and having to move the queen again.

[thorn yarrow]

Well, most players know it's the most popular move and it is strong move and it doesn't cost any tempo, because black has to respond. It is the most popular continuation among 2600+ players. chess tempo gives 456 games for 6. h6 and only 64. games for 6. Nf3. the WDL is 28/57/16 for 6. h4 and 28/50/25. It's not that 6. Nf3 is a bad move Caruana/ Dad 2025.08.18

[tender grove]

not Ne5?

[river prawn]

Also, assuming we play Bd3- 0-0 -c4-b3-Bb2, does the queen belong on c2 or e2? Obviously, keeping it on d1 or moving it to d2 is bad because c5 will open the d-file and Levy will have a rook on d8

6.Nf3 doesn’t force black to play several “only moves” but that doesn’t matter because Levy knows the “only moves” after 6.h4

[thorn yarrow]

Sorry 456 games for 6. h4. Well, I guess after 6. Nf3 Nd7 one can transpose 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 (WDL 30/39/30). According to chess tempo database 2600+ for 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. Bd3 WDL is 29/52/19 Or is another line being considered?

[slow breach]

We're hoping to see 7. h4 on the next move and hopefully we can all communicate this plan early and often. 🙂 That being said, it may prove to be a huge lift to achieve, and we may find ourselves in a 7. Bd3 world which is also OK. We just lose our ability to ask precise opening questions through grandmaster practice / opening theory, and can just focus on "freestyling"

[thorn yarrow]

Well, I see Judit Polgar - Baadur Jobava 2010-12-17 29th world Blitz. Maybe I should go analyze that game just in case 🙂

[slow breach]

I think I also came across an Anand - Topalov game that looked pretty reasonable! Spassky used to "freestyle" this Nf3 + Bd3 plan when he had a date with a tennis match! 😉

[thorn yarrow]

Yeah. I know Spassky loved tennis.

[compact gale]

Yes, according to Master praxis. Also we have a poll on that with h4 winning.

[compact gale]

Because, it provokes either .. h6 or .. Nh5. Both are good for us. We would eventually castle queen-side in both cases.

[river prawn]

The only reason why 6.Nf3 Nf6 would 7.h4 would matter is if 7..Nh5. If 7..Nh5, then 8.Nxh5 Bxh5 9.Be2, followed by 10.Bf4, 11.Qd2, 12.0-0-0, and pawnstorming the kingside

[compact gale]

If you haven't voted in our move 7 polls, please do so soon. Go to #next-move-polls or https://discord.com/channels/387637011965804544/1424863429386174545

[compact gale]

You should join The World Team to have full access to the GothamChess channels. Goto #info-vs-theworld and follow the steps, especially the section about joining where it says to click the !! emogi to join

[empty idol]

Given how popular h4 is right now on the polls here, how is promoting it on the chat going to work?

Cause it didn’t worked out this move

Maybe we could also post a second move that seems more obvious- the greatest issue with h4 this move was that people were confused on the reasoning for it

Or atleast the people who only look at the chat

[compact gale]

Here is my hail mary first pass recommendation for move 7. Let me know what you guys think. We have only 115 minutes until our turn expires. So I am astking for some quick feedback.

If GothamChess plays 6 .. Nd7, .. Ne6, or Nf5 we play 7 h4!,threatening 7. h5! trapping his bishop. When GothamChess plays 7 .. h6 to allow the bishop to retreat to h7, we then push 8. h5, answering 8 .. Bh7 with 9. Bd3. We then recapture 9.. Bxd3 10. Qxd3 and then play 11. Bd2 and 12. 0-0-0, preparing a kingside pawn storm if GothamChess castles kingside. By playing h4 and h5, we have already begun the kingside pawn storm. Also, by castling queenside, we can castle to the queen-side where we have not pushed pawns in front of the king.

This plan asserts Whites opening advantage and the PlayGothamDiscord team is excited to play this against GothamChess and is our recommendation. If this is too scary, 7 Bd3 leads to quieter waters where GothamChess has achieved equality.

The choice is yours. Here is what Coach Dane (NM Fischwitsch) said about this:

Hi all! Levy is playing a very solid line of the Caro Kann that was the overwhelming favorite for several decades until 4...Nf6 received a recent revival. This is not an opening we can dream of "refuting," but it's important to understand what price Black may have to play in order to play so solidly.

How White can play for an opening advantage:

By moving his bishop to f5 and then g6, he is spending time that could otherwise be used to focus on awakening his still slumbering kingside pieces. The bishop is also exposed to additional pressure by our kingside forces. In order for us to claim any advantage from our "opening serve" by playing the white pieces, we need to put his light squared bishop under pressure and provoke some concessions. This is why 6. h4! is an important move.

I strongly recommend that we vote for 6. h4! That being said, if 6. Nf3 is our choice, it is important that we play 7. h4! on the next move. This way, we can still transpose to the main line that applies concrete pressure against Levy's otherwise rock-solid opening choice

Conclusion:

For those of you wanting to play Nf3 and Bd3, you are demonstrating healthy positional intuition by developing your pieces to active squares. This is the core idea we want to explore, but if Black's bishop is allowed to just chill on g6, then our position will lose its "bite" against Levy's rock-solid Caro Kann. 6. h4! or, if 6. Nf3 wins the vote, then 7. h4! is a "super charged" version of Nf3+Bd3. The h-pawn confronts the light squared bishop on g6, forcing Black to move the h-pawn. That way when we're ready to play Bd3, we are actually threatening to trade bishops.

I know pushing the h-pawn can feel weird and uncomfortable, but hopefully the ideas shared in this analysis helps clarify why h4-h5 is important to put Levy under any pressure during the opening and that we do not need to play any "crazy" looking moves since we're going to play straight forward developing moves such as Bd3, Qxd3, Bd2 or f4, and queenside castling.

After we play 6 Nf3 (which has a commanding lead):

If GothamChess plays 6 .. Nd7, we play 7 h4!

If GothamChess plays 6 .. Ne6, we play 7 h4!

If GothamChess plays 6 .. Nf6,, we play 7 h4! In this case, If GothamChess plays h6, we follow the plan outlined above, but if GothamChess chooses to play 7 .. Nh5 stopping our h4 pawn from advancing, we forge forward with 8 Nxh5 Bxh5 9 Be2 e6 10 Be3 (or Bf4) Nd7 11 Qd2 Nb6 (or Bd6) 12 O-O-O where we are fully developed with more space

[compact gale]

OK, thanks! I'm publishing on team chat. I can edit that if any updates are suggested.

[river prawn]

What are you talking about, Ne6, that’s not even a legal move

Also in that 7..Nh5 line, the bishop belongs on f4, not e3, although both are good

[outer lance]

I thought he meant just e6, didn't notice the N, sorry.

[river prawn]

@compact gale Fix that before posting it

[compact gale]

I did see the Ne6 typo and fixed it

Posted now on team chat

Also posted to https://discord.com/channels/387637011965804544/1424914260852478002

Looks better on team chat. Discord's lack of support for color and 2000 character posting limits (for non-nitro folks) are frustrating.

[fair sorrel]

hello

[compact gale]

You are not yet joined to The World Team (role)

[fair sorrel]

I agree with everything except that after 7.h4 h6 I think white need not play h5 but should go straight to playing 8. Bd3 compelling black to exchange on d3 and with 9.Qxd3 white wins control over the important central square e4

[compact gale]

Coach Dane's analysis: https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/pgn/3eYKzRo7ki/analysis

[fair sorrel]

[compact gale]

This server is supporting 7 h4, but there is substantial back pressure from the team chat.

Our turn is ending ....

has ended

[fair sorrel]

The team has just played 6.Nf3 I think the most probable move by black to be 6...Nd7 but also feasible is 6...e6 and 6...nf6 and in any of these 3 cases I plan on playing 7h4! to compel black to play 7..h6 then with 8.Bd3 Bxd3 9.Qxd3 white gains control of the important central square e4. I do not think it necessary for white to play 8.h5 as then in that case if the game goes into an endgame eventually which is very probable, black may get additional chances by attacking whites over extended pawn at h5.

[compact gale]

We are very likely to castle queen-side if we get 7 h4 in

Our move 7 recommendations have been posted on team chat after the archive

[fair sorrel]

👍

[compact gale]

Can anybody verify that they see our post on team chat? My mobile is not showing anything

My laptop is tho

found the problem it was set to page 2

[river prawn]

[empty idol]

What happens if Gotham plays h5 by the way? Our reasoning in the beginning is the h4-h5 push but it’s easy to dismiss it for people skimming. Like the first thing I thought when I read it in chat just now is what about h5

[river prawn]

then the h-pawn is weak because it's not defended by another pawn

the last time it was played at all was 2017. Since then, there have been close to 2000 games where black played h6. We should not plan for h5 because it will not happen

even if h5 was a perfectly good move, the fact that nobody above 2200 plays it means we should not worry about it

[empty idol]

Thanks for clearing that up a bit for me

[river prawn]

unless black plays g6, which isn't very good because the bishop does not belong on g7

[empty idol]

Lot of people still confused why Bd3 is inferior to h4 on the chess.com chat from what I can tell…is it worth it to state that Bd3 isn’t needed at the moment so we’re just stalling? I don’t know if that’s even a factual statement completely but it could help a bit

I just realized Bd3 and Be3 are two different moves…never happened

Is it alright if I post this synopsis in the chat
‘My understanding of the h4 argument: Gotham moves his bishop too many times and is down some development. Let’s attack it to keep pressure on it and keep our lead in development.’

Imma just post it-I think it’s a decent summary

[river prawn]

are you talking about 7.Bd3

[river prawn]

no, that's not why we're playing 7.h4

we're playing 7.h4 so we can castle queenside and pawn storm

[empty idol]

Yeah

I messed up reading the board

[river prawn]

7.Bd3 isn't wrong, it's just simple

Personally, I think simple is better from a practical sense

but I'd love to see 7.h4 played

[empty idol]

So it’s more of us warning him that he can’t castle king side easily either and starting an attack that way?

[river prawn]

pretty much

All it does is lead to a completely equal middlegame with no weaknesses on either side and no pawnstorming (since we're castled on the same side)

I see 8 setups with 7.Bd3, from 3 independent choices.
1: Do we put the c1 bishop on b2 or f4?
2: Do we play Bxg6 or keep the bishop on d3, waiting for Bxd3?
3: Do we play Qc2 or Qe2?

All of those combinations are acceptable

I haven't looked into which is the best, but none of them are bad

[river prawn]

The things that we have to do if we play Bd3 are:
Castle kingside
Put our rooks on e1 and d1

look

i don't want it to come to this

but look at how large the margin was on the latest vote

7.h4 is not going to win no matter how much we spam in the chat because the people that vote for 7.Bd3 will not be reading the chat

[outer lance]

Below are a few back-up lines / ideas, for if Bd3 wins the vote on move 7:

Against 6 .Nd7:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bd3 e6 8.Bxg6 hxg6 9.O-O Ngf6 10.c4 Qc7 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Bg5 O-O 13.c5

Against 6. e6:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 e6 7.Bd3 Nf6 8.O-O Be7 9.Re1 O-O 10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.Qe2 c5 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.Ne4

Against 6. Nf6:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.Bd3 e6 8.O-O Be7 9.Bxg6 hxg6 10.Qe2 Qb6 11.Be3 c5 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.Bxc5 Qxc5 14.Rad1 Nc6 15.c3

. Against the above 3 most likely moves by Black, I still prefer 7. h4, OC
. These are just some lines that have been played before in the database, if we are forced to throw away our h4 plans.
. Not going to post every potential 7. Bd3 line, as there are likely many other sound moves and / or move orders, besides the ones shown in the lines above.
. Always happy to hear some other suggestions, too.

[river prawn]

It's not about if 6..Nd7, 6..e6, or 6..Nf6 is played by GothamChess, because those are all going to be played eventually. There are three things that matter.
1: Does GothamChess play Be7 or Bd6? (Be7 is probably more likely but I'm not certain of that)
2: Does GothamChess play 0-0 or 0-0-0? (0-0 is much more likely)
3: When does GothamChess play the thematic c5 pawn break?

Those are the questions we should be asking, not lines against individual moves

[river prawn]

We can also put the bishop on g5 if we play Bxg6, since h6 is no longer possible

But if we don't play Bxg6, then Bg5 is bad because of h6

And GothamChess is not going to respond to Bxg6 with fxg6, because then e6 is very weak

[river prawn]

If 7.Bd3 is played, this will become a game focused on multi-move positional ideas.
If 7.h4 is played, this will become a game focused on specific accurate moves.

[river prawn]

I just don’t see how we could leave the opening with an advantage if we play 7.Bd3

It’s just too simple

But it does dramatically reduce the chances we leave the opening with a disadvantage

If we play 7.h4, there’s a good chance we screw up and lose in less than 20 moves. If we play 7.Bd3, we’re almost certain to last at least 20 moves

We’ll see what happens in the vote

I support 7.h4 only if it gets more than 30% of the vote. If it wins with less than 30% of the vote, we are cooked

[empty idol]

It took a good bit but I think the people in the chat right now are convinced of h4. Of course that could just be the lack of people up right now and then the issue of most not even looking at chat…

[river prawn]

Everyone in the chat agreed that 5.Ng3 was best the whole time and yet even before the botting it was only a 400 vote margin

[empty idol]

I’m praying that was largely due to the bot spam that happened

Oh you said before botting…

That is slightly concerning but right now we’ve two choices that both work-one is our preferred choice and the other the more obvious move based on chat comments

So less stakes than blundering the pawn for no real reason

Dang, I just realized exactly how close we got to Bd3 on move 5. 55 votes made the difference

[river prawn]

are there 55 people in this server who voted for 5.Ng3

[empty idol]

In theory yes. I get your point tho

[compact gale]

We have about 408 that have joined The World Team

[faint gorge]

but not all of them are active

Make it 1000 will be better

[crude gull]

Bd3 has an early lead, as expected. Bc4 a close second.

Neither of them is a bad move.

But neither of them is our recommendation either 😃

Imo, after Bd3, while it’s probably objectively best for him to take Bxd3, he probably won’t, expecting us to take the unfavorable trade Bxg6

We have to be wary of not playing Bxg6 if it comes to that. It’s not losing the game, but it’s not a good move.

[slow breach]

I think we'll likely see Bd3 played, when we can shift to "anti-candidate moves" strategy as I mentioned before. I think many voters will ignore lengthy explanations, such as why h4! is a powerful move, but if we have one sentence explanations like "0-0, castling our king to safety and NOT Bxg6, capturing without a good reason" we might gain more traction moving forward. I shared when Bxg6 may make sense in "coach-forum" with the Anand - Topalov game as an example.

[river prawn]

Bxg6 is not even that unfavorable, it’s perfectly fine

Bc4 might win

What is going on here

[crude gull]

It is unfavorable, we give the h file to black for free

We can even see it in the winning percentages

[river prawn]

Black is going to castle kingside, the open h-file doesn’t matter

How I feel right now
https://youtu.be/DQbiS0L5ilQ

I’m calling it

Vote Bd3 to stop the even worse Bc4

This isn’t as bad as it could be though

We are still absolutely cooked tho

[leaden creek]

people seem to like Bd3 better than h4

[river prawn]

I called it

The real surprise is Bc4

Bc4 isn’t even bad though

[vagrant pelican]

Our recommendations weren’t getting played in Magnus game as well until we reached the middle game. Probably that’s when more % of engaged players remain

[humble horizon]

Where actually is the logic behind Bc4?

[compact gale]

I think that change occurred after the condemnation of the anti-positional 12 .. c5

[compact gale]

Develop our king-side bishop, point it at f7, so we can castle.

[humble horizon]

Bc4?

[crude gull]

It’s not bad

It’s a developing move

[slow breach]

Indeed, and the most visually attractive moves will continue to gain attention. If Bd3 crosses the finish line, there will be a mental "premove" to capture the bishop on g6. This will be a great moment to start sharing the three typical mistakes I mentioned in my post (capturing without a good reason, checking the king without purpose / a clear follow up idea, making one move attacks, especially pawn moves that weaken our position). If we repeat these errors to try and avoid and share a simple narrative advocating one reasonable move and then starting to identify the most likely "anti-candidate move" that will unintentionally commit one of the three typical positonal mistakes less experienced players tend to make, hopefully we'll shift the voting behavior in a more healthy direction.

In the Magnus match, to my recollection, we didn't intentionally and consistently raise awareness to the three typical errors that are commonly made, so perhaps listing these with each post will be a helpful improvement so less experienced players have some sort of reference point, coupled with the suggested reasonable move + anti candidate move? I will likely start adding this preface to my commentary.

[compact gale]

I agree and would like to include this on our move 8 recommendations

[river prawn]

"point it at f7"
black plays e6 and then our bishop is doing nothing

at least Bd3 is leading over Bc4

[river prawn]

There is a good reason to play Bxg6, we need to play it so we can play Qc2 or Qe2 later without losing a tempo to Bxd3

Since we need to get the queen of the d-file because it will open when GothamChess plays the standard c5 pawn break

and GothamChess will have a rook on d8

I don't think we can convince people to play b3-Bb2, so Bf4 is where that bishop will go

[river prawn]

this is directed at low Elo players, not you

[compact gale]

We agree. I'm just saying that anticipating what the opponent might do is not part of the thought process for Bc4.

[river prawn]

people keep saying Bc4 is bad because of b5

like no

that's not going to happen

[slow breach]

lol, we're all "low elo rated players" depending on perspective, but i do understand you are attempting to reference less experienced players.

[river prawn]

im talking about really really low Elo players

[slow breach]

Another "really, really" subjective statement - please be charitable and I understand more experienced players can help share their insights with less experienced players.

[river prawn]

the median player is around 1350 blitz

but the average is 621

the real problem is people making moves without reading the chat

[slow breach]

It's important that the team gets on the same page regarding how we can best communicate ideas and positively encourage other members of the team with less experience. In the long run, there might be a reason to play Bxg6, just like Anand did after Topalov castled. Capturing on g6 on the next move does not speak to any awareness about moving the queen in several moves, so there is no urgency to capture.

Bxg6 isn't the worst move in the world, but the typical mindset that will endorse a premature capture on g6 will also likely be encouraged to play similar moves when the position becomes far more critical. This is why I suggest the team shares a communication strategy to help less experienced players avoid the three typical errors whenever possible and help unify around a reasonable, healthy move. So, if we do see Bd3 as our next move, this will be a good opportunity for the team to start sharing the "three typical errors" and advocate for castling and identifying Bxg6 as an "anti-candidate move" to help users practice capturing with purpose. We can continue to improve our team communication and hopefully also positively influence future votes - it's all a work in progress. 🙂

[river prawn]

interesting

white hasn't won a game in the Masters Database with 8.Bxg6 since 2014

white is 0-3-23 in games from 2015 to now

very drawish

another benefit of Bxg6 is the ability to play Bg5

im calling it, h4 has lost

we need to plan for Bd3 and Bc4

[maiden pagoda]

i hate this

i lwk wanna quit now wtf is this

why did over 200 people offer a draw

why is Bd3 winning now people keep tryna play that

i mean it doesnt hang a pawn anymore

but it isnt what we voted on

shouldnt we not kick the people who vote for things other than what we agreed on?

[crude gull]

Everyone is free to vote as they please

We are trying to work together and convince the team to vote with us but not everyone has to agree with our recommendation.

[river prawn]

“Jesus Christ, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, Bobby Fischer, Jose Capablanca, Magnus Carlsen, Garry Kasparov, and even Levy Rozman himself (with an alt account) could all show up in the chat and tell people to vote for 7.h4 and it would still lose because the majority of voters aren’t reading this chat.”

[crude gull]

I don’t disagree but we can’t do anything about that.

[river prawn]

Yeah

[empty idol]

Just checked the game and Bc4 is such a surprise. No one was talking about it when I checked the chess chat and we didn’t consider it that much either

[outer lance]

The only good thing about Bc4 - besides it not being a blunder, is that Black will likely play e6 on their next turn, but that is also very likely if Bd3 wins this turn, as well.
Knowing e6 will likely be played is good for planning, if nothing else. (Update added about 3 minutes after posting)
Here are my preferences for this turn:
h4 > Bd3 > Bc4 > any other move that isn't a mistake or blunder > Resign

[thorn yarrow]

How many people know that discord is a discussion forum? I see discussions on chess.com site as well.

[empty idol]

It’s usually on the bottom of every post the team does so I would guess a good amount of people know

[river prawn]

Bc4 is fine but Bd3 is better

[rugged glade]

True

[faint gorge]

Now we enter to our Bd3 era

I recommend c4 or 0-0 after Bd3

But i will vote for 0-0

[pale rover]

yo ts is dumb

Bc4?!

and Bd3?!

first off Bc4 immediately invites e6! which just defeats the purpose of placing a bishop there

Bd3 is a little more solid but after the trade of bishops, we lose time in the long run if we are to attack on the kingside

at least thats how I learned the theory

[faint gorge]

Yea ur right

[pale rover]

for Qc7 why shouldn’t we play c4?

Potentially kickstart a bit of an earlier attack on the queenside

also for e6 c4 is an option

though it allows bb4+

what we should not play is Bxg6

gotham will almost certainly use the open h file for a kingside attack, and without a bishop and two pawns blocking that file if we don’t play h4-h5, things may get rather dangerous

[vagrant pelican]

Please select an emoji for it

[vagrant pelican]

Yes. That’s our anti-candidate move that we’ll be advertising

[pale rover]

(note that fxg6 is a big mistake as the e pawn becomes isolated and an eventual kingside attack is weakened without an f5 maneuver)

[river prawn]

I assume we don’t need a poll for 8..Bxd3 9.Qxd3, right?

[river prawn]

I think we should play c4 eventually, after castling

[pale rover]

we shouldnt

cxd3? Makes doubled isolated pawns

this is bad

anything else just loses a bishop

[pale rover]

we can, but if e6 isn’t played we can start with c4 without bb4+

[river prawn]

Why bother when we can just play 0-0 and then c4

[pale rover]

e6 is essentially forced in my evaluation after c4

because

If Bb4+ isn’t an option, then a queenside attack has an early boost as there is nothing to directly punish this flank pawn maneuver

Now if gotham plays e6 first we should just castle

Also put a 3️⃣ reaction for ngf6

[vagrant pelican]

Correct!

@bronze meteor : what’s the other move you’re thinking against 7.. e6?

[compact gale]

Hey @bronze meteor what is your Other move you prefer on the .7 .. e6 poll. I am thinking to vote Other as well for 8 Bf4.

[bronze meteor]

i wanted to say bf4 to both of the poll

[vagrant pelican]

I added an emoji for it

[compact gale]

@bronze meteor I think you want to click on the emoji for the Ngf6 poll and remove your emoji "vote" for the 3️⃣

[bronze meteor]

if Ngf6 i wanted to vote Bxg6

[vagrant pelican]

That option is there in the poll

[faint gorge]

0-0 looks more natural after Ngf6 but ok

Bd3 Ngf6 0-0

Im worried about the open h file after Bxg6 but black dont have great attack also

[inner iron]

It appears to me that for whatever reason, h4 is not being voted for and there was a resistance to playing that move. Regardless, since it seems like heels have been dug in against playing that move, even after all of the thorough explanation on the whys and the reasoning behind it, it seems like Bd3 might win out. If that does happen, I'm curious about a particular line. If after 7 Bd3 the following would be played, 7 ... e6 8 O-O Ngf6 9 Bxg6 hxg6 10 Bf4.... The question I have is, is this solid play or should we be wary of that rook gazing down the h file with his rook and possibly having a kingside attack. Should we go ahead and castle kingside or is it better to currently keep our option open to castle on either king or queenside and play another move for now? I know after castling, it gives us only a 19 chance of winning, but after 10 Bf4, we have better chances on various moves... Sorry if this has been explained previously, but i've been away for most of the day today and may have missed it. (p.s. The reason I think that Bxg6 over a Re1 move would be due to the fact that a lot of players tend to see a chance to trade off pieces and snatch them at the earliest opportunity... Since that's the case, that's why i consider Bxg6 hxg6 over Re1... Anyway, just asking the question since it looks like black is slowly building up developmentally to attack our king side.... Since we haven't played h4, then my thinking is that Levy might think our intent is to castle kingside...

[faint gorge]

Yea h4 looks not begin voted

In every move despite being great

Blacks pieces are bit cramped

So we are not going to be worried about kingside attack by levy, plus we got two knights in the king side

[inner iron]

ok, i was thinking that since h4 wasn't going to be played, (it's probably too late now) then getting castling out of the way and continuing with development would be the thing to do... I was just a little concerned with opening up the h file for his rook to add to the attack along the h file in the event of a kingside attack from Levy.

So I wasn't sure if O-O was the best thing for us to do or if we should rather continue with bishop development etc first and keep our O-O-O side castling option open for a bit longer.

I know I know... I talk a lot. lol I am trying to get more concise but tend to get long winded....

[faint gorge]

Lol

Its normal. Your like sharing your thoughts like a gentleman

O-o-o seems awkward bc if h4 is played then long castle is possible

But those voters tend to vote Bd3

Short castle is more likely to happen

[inner iron]

True, O-O-O would def seem awkward to me if h4 wasn't played, but if we traded bishops, that rook looking down the h file bothered me too. I think i'm done grieving about h4 not getting played now, and have tried to accept the more positional type play... It just seems a little more drawish as we continue moving forward, but that seems premature for me to say since we aren't even in the middle game yet... lol

[faint gorge]

For those who voted Ne5 are quite noob I'd say

Because Ne5 just lose castle rights after tradings

[proud pecan]

we cooked no doubt

[compact gale]

And pawn, right? ... O-O-O+

Alternate there is Qa5+

[proud pecan]

I was almost certain everyone was going h4 but then when I saw it 🫠

[outer lance]

Someone may have already answered, but I can't see anything really wrong with that setup, in the 7.Bd3 line below.

7.Bd3 e6 8.O-O Ngf6 9.Bxg6 hxg6 10.Bf4

Even though it doesn't look like a mistake or worse to me, I think our coach advised us to treat Bxg6 as an "anti-candidate" move, so we should only consider playing it if we can't find any other good looking moves to play.

[river prawn]

What if we could still play h4

This isn’t that crazy

7.Bd3 e6 8.Bxg6 hxg6 9.Bg5 Ngf6 10.Qd2 Be7 11.h4

Or 11.0-0-0 0-0 12.h4

[river prawn]

Bxg6 is the crux of our plan here because it makes h4 much better

Now this only works if GothamChess castles kingside

But it’s worth a shot

[vagrant pelican]

We go down this path only if we’re not able to avoid Bxg6 in move 8 right?

[river prawn]

Yeah

Bxg6 isn’t terrible

But we’ll need to retroactively justify it

That being said, 8.Bxg6 is going to win whether we want it to or not

But we can still castle queenside

However, we are never going to be able to castle queenside because we don’t have the votes

[vagrant pelican]

If everyone is united against it, we might be able to avoid it like in move 5

[river prawn]

No, because we won’t be united for another move, and move 5 was different. 5.Bd3 only lost because of 5.f3 voters, and there’s no equivalent for move 8

Okay maybe 8.0-0

But that would be conceding any chance of playing h4

Any chance of opposite side castling

Any chance of a tactical game rather than a positional one

[vagrant pelican]

Very difficult to play tactical game as a World team - or least set up for it because it’s the initial few moves is where recommendations don’t get picked up by the public

May be Bxg6, if it wins, will give us that opportunity

But the world might choose to castle short immediately after 8 Bxg6 😀

[jolly trail]

Im voting for h4 cuz why not

[compact gale]

It is possible, but very difficult with the chess.com design of the game. In Kasparov against the World 1999 with 50, 000 playing, there were 4 coaches who participated every move and had a 6 hour lead over the world to analyze the game before their analysis and recommendations were posted before Kasparov's move was broadcast. The coaches, all under 18 but very talented, were given great respect. Usually the world chose which analyst to follow on each move. The game was GM quality, the World going 62 moves before resigning in a KQP vs KQP ending. Kasparov wrote a book about it, I have a copy

The game had a fixed 48 hour schedule for receiving notifications of Kasparov's move to the end of their voting period and Kasparov's turn time.

[barren hatch]

I don't think Bxg6 is a good idea. Like, while we do need to get rid of that bishop, we need to get him to take us, Bxg6 just activates his rook.

[compact gale]

Posted our Move 8 Recommendation on team chat on chess.com. If you see any problems, let me know and I can edit the post.

[pale rover]

add to mistake three: …especially ask if the piece in question can attack you in some fashion like a tactic

[faint gorge]

Yea i miss that OG 1999 game, that one is the REAL vote chess with high quality

[compact gale]

Since I am quoting Coach Dane, I will leave it as is.

[pale rover]

krush 💪

[river prawn]

7.Bd3 has been played

Ignore that

The last time 7..Ngf6 8.Bxg6 won was 2016. The last time 7..e6 8.Bxg6 won was 2014. 7..Qc7 8.Bxg6 has never won

Granted 7..Qc7 8.Bxg6 has only been played one time

[river prawn]

As expected, 7..e6 was played, and 8.0-0 leads early

8..Ngf6 is the most common move by a huge margin at top level, what’s our plan after that?

[proud pecan]

I’m I a crazy person for liking 8.Ne5?

[river prawn]

Same as previous move, 8..Nxe5 9.dxe5 Qa5+ picks off the pawn

[proud pecan]

Castles it is then

[river prawn]

It doesn’t even matter what you vote for at this point

8.0-0 has a huge lead

But vote 8.0-0, that’s our recommendation

8.Bxg6 is in second, no surprise there

Our goal is to get GothamChess to play a line where Bxg6 is good for us

Because I don’t think we’re going to be able to stop it

On future moves

[proud pecan]

Anyways after 8.Ngf6 can we play 9.Bg5 or am I gonna be 600 forever 🫠

[pearl rover]

Not really. This position is about controlling the e5 square, so Ne5 looks tempting to prevent Black’s pawn push. But the main problem with Ne5 is that you don’t actually control e5 enough — which is also one of the reasons we’re castling first, and why 9.Re1 is recommended. Personally, though, I like 9.b3 because it’s more novel.

[river prawn]

That’s not even why 8.Ne5 is bad. 8.Ne5 is bad because it loses a pawn

[river prawn]

You’re never going to get enough votes for 9.b3

Good idea, but unable to win

[pearl rover]

I mean Ne5 in general somewehere in the next moves, not on move 8

[river prawn]

Only once we play Bf4 and can respond to Nxe5 with Bxe5

[proud pecan]

Yeah if we had another piece out maybe it would be an option I calculated something slightly different and missed the hanging pawn 🙏

[compact gale]

You should join The World Team by going to #info-vs-theworld and following the steps, particularly the section about Joinning the World Team where you need to bump the count on the !! emoji. This will give you full access to all the GothamChess channels

[river prawn]

People keep saying 9.Bxg6 is bad but they keep giving really dumb reasons why

Like yeah it’s not great, but no, GothamChess isn’t going to obliterate us on the h-file if we play that

[proud pecan]

I think our bishops are gonna look at each other for a while haha

[river prawn]

Someone said Bxg6 is bad because black plays Kf8 and attacks us

Like no, that’s not how anything works

[compact gale]

The master game statistics after 8 OO Ngf6 look dismal for us on both chess.com and lichess. And after 9 Re1 becomes more dismal. After 9 Bxg6 hxg6 10 Bf4 things look better'ish

I am not certain how useful these statistics are, based on less than 65 games

[river prawn]

14/69/17 (268 games) after 8..Ngf6
9/61/22 (167 games) after 9.Re1
17/75/8 (63 games) after 9.Bxg6

Not great, not terrible

https://tenor.com/view/chernobyl-not-great-not-terrible-its-okay-gif-24540363

I wouldn’t worry too much about Masters stats

[compact gale]

What are our thoughts on 9 Re1 vs 9 Bxg6 or some other non Re1 move?

[inner iron]

Wouldn't 9 Bf4 first before Re1 be better? The master games show a better win rate, though there are fewer games at this point.

[compact gale]

9 Bf4?

[inner iron]

Nevermind... I was thinking that 9 Bxg6 hxg6 was going to get played first, and THEN we'd play either 10 Re1 vs Bf4...

If that happened, then we'd be in a better position according to the master games db... although there are fewer games like you said, so not sure how reliable those stats would be.

I already know that we don't neccesarily want to play Bxg6 for tradings sake.... I'm just don't have a lot of hope that we'll be able to stop it... Players are already voting for Bxg6 as the 2nd top move. After we castle, I'm thinking the world is going to end up wanting to trade off that bishop regardless of all the advice given not to.

[vagrant pelican]

I was thinking about 9. b3 as well but very difficult to get votes for it

[river prawn]

they are equally good because you play one and then the other

I like 9.Re1 because it scares GothamChess from playing 9..Bd6

because of 10.Nf5

now there's no way we convince people to play that

but GothamChess doesn't know that

[open turret]

I am completely with Bf4 over O-O.
Black plays passively and we have enough time to spend on development. no rush to castle. maybe we can even play later Qd2 and castle long.

[river prawn]

We're going to play both at some point

We are not playing Qd2 and castling long for two reasons

1. We're down several tempi on the main lines because we didn't play h4 earlier
2. It's way more complicated, increasing the chance that we will vote for a mistake or blunder

This current type of position is perfect for vote chess

almost no chance of screwing up

[open turret]

I don’t really get the “we do/we don’t” phrasing. Isn’t the game open for opinions and free votes?

Anyway, I don’t think the main line (with h4) is good for us. I believe it’s too sharp and would lead to more complicated positions. That’s why I pushed for Nf3 and that’s why I’m pushing for Bf4. Simple chess.

I accept that not everyone would agree with me, but if there isn’t room for discussion, what’s the point of this forum? Make it as closed announcement and just tell us what to play…

[compact gale]

Yes, it is open. The discussion for h4 on earlier moves is now moot (since OO is easily winning the current move 8 vote). What move # are you advocating playing Bf4 on?

[open turret]

Now. For everyone who hasn’t voted yet. Instead of OO.

[compact gale]

Have you voted yet?

[open turret]

Yes.

Bf4

[vagrant pelican]

But that was a discussion for yesterday. We’re always planning for the next move and providing recommendations ahead of time

For move 8, we discussed and polled yesterday and our recommendation was O-O

[open turret]

I’ve been trying to get in the forum for a few days. Got it only now.

I’ve been commenting in the forum benith the game till now.

[vagrant pelican]

Now that O-O is likely to be played, we’re discussing options to play for move 9 based expected Gotham’s responses

[vagrant pelican]

I see. We’re glad you made it!

[open turret]

But that sounds way better.

[wraith ravine]

Wait what is the problem with 9.Bf4

[open turret]

For move 9, if O-O will be played, I think be7/d6 and Ngf6 should be met with Re1

[open turret]

It’s not bad, but there could be better moves because the bishop might want to develop differently. I think it’s better to take the file first from this position.

Until he castles short, I don’t see a reason to exchange bishops on g6

[pearl rover]

The bishop becomes a target on f4. Black can attack it in just two moves with the knight.

[river prawn]

no, because Bf4 Nd5 Bg5

there is nothing wrong with 9.Bf4, there is nothing wrong with 9.c4, there is nothing wrong with 9.Re1, there is nothing wrong with 9.b3, there is nothing wrong with 9.Bxg6, everything works

[pearl rover]

Oke, what happens after Bg5?

[river prawn]

Be7 Bxe7 Nxe7

actually

the reason why we can't play Bf4 right away is Qb6

targeting b2

we need to play c4 first so we can respond to Qb6 with Qc2

[wraith ravine]

Ooh actually 9.c4 is looking juicy

[river prawn]

both 9.Re1 and 9.c4 are good

[pearl rover]

If we exchange all the pieces, the game will end in a draw. That is why i don't like Bf4

[river prawn]

it's one pair of bishops

[compact gale]

I am creating polls assuming 8 O-O: 8..Ngf6, 8..Bd6, 8..Be7, 8..Qc7, and 8..Bxd3

Am I missing anything else that we are worried about him playing?

[wraith ravine]

What are actually the other options for 8..Bxd3

like other than Qxd3

[gusty pulsar]

Testing

[compact gale]

Join us on The World Team by going to #info-vs-theworld and following the steps, particularly the section on Joining The World Team by bumping the count on the !! emoji. Then you will have full access to all of the GothamChess channels.

[river prawn]

no poll for that, just like how there was no poll for 7..Bxd3

but 8..Ngf6 is far more likely than any other move

I don't really know what to do on move 9, there are so many good options

[compact gale]

We will recommend playing 9 Qxd3 (since 9 .. cxd3 is next best, but bad) without a poll

[river prawn]

yeah

There's no server consensus on what to do on move 9

[compact gale]

It is actually worth warning players not to vote for cxd3

[river prawn]

I don't think 8..c5 works this early

it's a thematic pawn break, but I don't think it works

[pale rover]

avoid bxg6

C4 works this early by the way

well

more nuanced then that

You need to have a well thought out queenside attacking plan in the future if c4 is played

It essentially plays for a win

Re1 is the safe option

Bxg6 is the bad option

[compact gale]

On move 9?

[pale rover]

yes

[compact gale]

Yeah, but it has significant master game play

I already have the 8 .. Ngf6 poll with that as a 3rd choice

[river prawn]

not really, the goal behind 9.c4 is to discourage queenside castling while also developing

[compact gale]

8 .. Bd6 poll: 9. c4, Re1, Bxg6, Ne4, Qe2

missing anything?

[river prawn]

yes

9.Bg5, 9.c3

[compact gale]

There is no master praxis for those. Can people just use Other for those?

[river prawn]

yeah

i mean it doesn't really matter anyways because 8..Ngf6 will be played

All I have to say is unless we unite behind a single move on move 9, 9.Bxg6 will win

[compact gale]

Most likely. Ngf6 is played 93% of games in lichess masters db

[outer lance]

If Gotham plays Ngf6 here, I initially liked 9.Bg5 because afterwards this could be our position:

... 8.O-O Ngf6 9.Bg5 Be7 10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.c4 O-O 12.Qe2 Qb6 13.Rad1

. I don't like it as much now, since we are trying to avoid taking with Bxg6, unless we have to.
. Will probably change my vote in the Poll to 9.c4. and I like the look of the line below.

... e6 8.O-O Ngf6 9.c4 Be7 10.Bf4 O-O 11.Qe2 Bxd3 12.Qxd3

. A lot of database lines that I looked at seem to head towards an eventual Bxg6, so this is one that I came up with, that goes off book on move 11, to hopefully avoid that.
. OC, we and Gotham have to both play these moves to get there, and once you go off book, that becomes more and more unlikely each turn.

[slow breach]

Hi all! Just checking in here briefly. I made some comments in the game chat suggesting as a team we unite around 9. b3 and share 9. Bxg6 as an "anti-candidate move" as it commits Typical Mistake One, "capturing for the sake of capturing."

I suggest using Anand's play against Topalov as a model example of playing simple, straight forward moves to reach a comfortable middlegame. He also demonstrates a good moment to play Bxg6 (once Black has castled and White is ready to play Qc2) https://www.chess.com/games/view/4448341

[river prawn]

We need to unite around a move else 9.Bxg6 will win. Start posting now so that people agree to play 9.b3 instead of another reasonable move like 9.Re1 or 9.Bf4

however

I think it will be tougher to convince people to play 9.b3 than something like 9.Bf4 or 9.Re1

it's like trying to convince people to play 6.h4 or 7.h4

also, in that game, Topalov went for 10..Qa5!?, which hasn't been played since

what if Levy goes for 10..0-0 and 11..Qc7

for example

9.b3 Be7 10.Bb2 0-0 11.Bxg6! hxg6 12.c4 Qc7

then what

do we put the queen on e2 or c2

[compact gale]

This is all in the 8 O-O Ngf6 line right?

[river prawn]

yes

but it's not that important exactly what black plays right now because black will play Ngf6 soon anyways

[pearl rover]

9.b3 ❤️

[river prawn]

9.b3 is about asserting control

there are tons of good moves, but this is once again about asserting control

just like 6.h4 and 7.h4

let's not fail this time

[compact gale]

8 .. Ngf6 9 b3 master game stats are ok/promising.

much better than 9 Re1

But 9 Bxg6 is good too

I am warming up to 8 .. Ngf4 9 b3 tho (over Bxg6)

[vagrant pelican]

Our polls are quite split

And that’s the biggest worry

[compact gale]

Looks like we need more discussion!

[river prawn]

Here’s the thing. Black wants to play Be7/Bd6 and 0-0. We’ve established that Bxg6 is good once black castles kingside, but is there any danger of black castling queenside if we play Bxg6 before black castles kingside?

For example

8.0-0 Ngf6 9.Bxg6 hxg6 10.Re1 Bd6 11.c4 Qc7 12.Bg5 0-0-0

I was looking at 13.Qa4 Kb8 14.b4, and that seems much better for us

I think our attack gets there first, but there are lots of potential sacrifices like Ng4-Nxh2

If 0-0-0 from black is not a threat, then playing Bxg6 now will just transpose to lines where we play it later

I found one game from 2012 where black went for 0-0-0, got destroyed, and nobody at high level has tried it since

[tender grove]

does he have to castle

[river prawn]

Yes, else the king is stuck in the center and that’s obviously bad

[tender grove]

black’s king should be reasonably fine in the center/ after walking to g8

[river prawn]

Walking to g8? How is that different from castling kingside

[tender grove]

keeps the rook on the h file mostly

[river prawn]

I don’t think there’s enough pieces for an attack since we keep our knight on g3

What I’m worried about is 0-0-0, Rh7, Rdh8

[tender grove]

if we’re concerned about that let’s just play Bf4

(with c4 support probably)

seems like more effort than it’s worth though blacks pawns are tripping over each other on the kingside and white has plenty of space to launch theirs

[river prawn]

If we play Bxg6 and black castles queenside, pawnstorming obviously doesn’t work, but we might have to worry about black doubling rooks on the h file

[tender grove]

I’m not seeing that ever working out

[river prawn]

That’s what I thought

But I want proof

[river prawn]

Something like 14.b4 Rh7 15.c5 Bf4 16.Bxf4 Qxf4 17.b5 Rdh8

Wait

Not that

But you get my point

I don’t think it works

It just doesn’t feel right for black

But intuition isn’t calculation

[tender grove]

I don’t like Bg5 in that line

[river prawn]

Where else do you put the bishop?

[tender grove]

let’s keep Ng5 open, it slows down any Rh7 stuff

[river prawn]

Ng5 Rh4

idk about Nxf7

But above all, I just don’t see GothamChess castling queenside

It’s just not something Caro-Kann players do

[tender grove]

I’m not seeing what you’re seeing here

[river prawn]

I’m not either

But I’ve been arguing with someone for two hours

Read the chat

The game chat

I’m not sure of myself

[tender grove]

I can’t even access the game on the trash mobile app, maybe I’ll look later on pc

[river prawn]

It’s even less in more recent games

[compact gale]

You can use a mobile browser: https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/386700

[tender grove]

idk all of these moves look the same to me except …Qc7 Ne2 which looks awful

no idea why that’s an option

[tender grove]

it wants me to log in and I cba to do that on my phone

again

fkn archive wasn’t even working on mobile browser for months idk how they screwed that up

Bd6

[river prawn]

I was wrong

The idea is not Nf4

[tender grove]

now theyre going to tell me its to play Bf4

[river prawn]

Yeah

But just Bd6

[tender grove]

i mean c4 maybe