I fully agree.
It's player choose to speedrun to L5 or to explore slowly.
Better explain new player reaching L5 is not a goal, most players falsely believe it's adventure with goal, not realizing it's just regular SMP with specific thematic.
Only environment should stop players from going deeper (mobs, curse, pvpers), not intentionally bad infrastructure.
It also will be fair when eventually keep inventory will be removed.
#Allow fast travel on every layer
strong gorge
deft onyx
honestly i didn't read all of this but with the upcoming 'relic and mob update' it will be ALOT faster to descend and do other things
balanced for mid to endgame people
example being a grapple hook like the one you mentioned and theirs a couple other things that i cannot mention yet that will help
deft onyx
i am not in a position where i can comment where it matters, i just mentioned what i know
stairs will always keep being nuked as it affects new players journey and as a new player i like the gamr without syairs but with the relic update the main goal to meet with relics is ‘qol/utility’ then ‘coolness’ afterwards
deft onyx
idk what the rules are, i have no say in them i’m a newbie, i can suggest things or comeup with workarounds but i don’t have the intel to comment on this case
anything that affects a new players ‘natural way into the abyss’ and kills that vibe is disallowed
mini cases are fine or natural ones as thats a ‘path’ as it would exist in the sctual anyss of thousands of delvers crossing the same area a path is garaunteed
but a MASSIVE STAIRCASE skipping layer 1-3
gritty pagoda
They will eventually look through the suggestion
cold scarab
If you build a massive staircase that skips a layer or multiple layers it will be eventually nuked, regardless of whether it is hidden or not hidden. Players still find them, and it also creates this grey area of what is allowed. As Hunter said, hopefully relics will help with the players who are more progressed.
I have not had any say in the recent decision around rails recently, I've been working on other things. But Rails/ladders/stairs have always been a controversial topic for many years. The major problem that it inflicts is that, yes while it makes the lives of every progressed player that bit easier, it makes a big problem of player retention. (Which as a sidenote.. is something players originally mentioned to us)
New player joins, new player waddles down the staircase holding w, then doesn't even need to hold w cause there is a lovely railway. Oh boom, already in Ido?? Brilliant, log off, never play again.
We used to always think people were hacking, because they would get to L5 in like 30 minutes, but they actually just were able to get down so fast due to staircases and railways.
So I understand why you progressed players want fast travel, it's tedious to do it a bajillion times over. But we have to consider the flip side of what we do for new players as well, and player retention issues can lead to bigger problems, like you know.. lack of players. 😭
The other issue is railways and stairs are not exciting gameplay. I'm sure you guys don't enjoy holding w you the entire way down a giant staircase, its for sure more efficient, but not exciting.
So I hope, that in the future we can implement ways like the grappling hook for progressed players to make their lives easier and not affect the experience for new players at all. As well as, just having it be something more cool and more versatile. It would make it easier to explore and get around faster hopefully.
strong gorge
New player joins, new player waddles down the staircase holding w, then doesn't even need to hold w cause there is a lovely railway. Oh boom, already in Ido?? Brilliant, log off, never play again.
Sounds like a player's problem. If this type of player will not find stairs, they probably log off forever in L2 or something.
tbh what is more demotivates new players, i believe, is lack of knowledge about features (like srsly why there is no recipe display at HQ? everyone asks about bonfires, noone have idea about sickles, etc) and general bugs and instability (broken bonfires are extremely hard for new players, etc).
tender oxide
I agree regarding needing a fast travel that’s exclusive to old players to ease travel while not being available to new players
cold scarab
> New player joins, new player waddles down the staircase holding w, then doesn'...
Our focus is on fixing bugs at the moment, they just can't be fixed at a wave a wand unfortunately, as much as we all wish they could be.
Can probably work on some way to better talk about custom recipes in the tutorial, that would be a good thing to make a suggestion for.
tender oxide
Our focus is on fixing bugs at the moment, they just can't be fixed at a wave a ...
Only way I can think of displaying the recipes
strong gorge
item displays can provide fancy, aligned and compact way to render this together in one-two block size, but requires coding. But I pretty sure there should be some library for this. those item displays/text renderes are everywhere on pay2win servers lol
cold scarab
Yeah we can definitely do something fancier, might just have to do the main custom recipes though. When we start adding a lot more for various things in the future it might be hard to keep them all in tutorial. But perhaps there is a better way we can display them, like an NPC who keeps track of all your unlocked recipes idk, lots of possibilities
gritty pagoda
sounds like adventure quests
last elm
What if grapple hook acted similar to terraria hooks, since it’s more similar to reg’s control. The hook could latch on to two or more points and the player can have free mobility in that area
Or if free mobility is impossible, the player can be suspended in place between the points. This could let players crawl across walls or ceilings by relaunching hooks
cold scarab
I agree that it's a player thing to a degree...? Players naturally will always be inclined to take an easy route to their goal. It's quite rare to find players who want to challenge themselves fully and ignore the obvious easy route. That is unfortunately the truth, and the community is compromised of those rare people because everyone else has already made it to the bottom and logged off forever lmao
The only current goal on our server, is quite literally going down. And the easy route is stairs and railways. So, allowing fast travel on every layer makes that goal super achievable. And some players will get to the bottom and think about doing more or other things, most won't.
Hence enabling fast travel on every layer might fix your problem, but it makes another problem worse. It makes the game less exciting for new players.
How do we deal with this? I stand by adding item specific features that mid-end game players can get to make traversal better. But, we also add more features to make the game more interesting, to add more goals than simply going down so player retention is kept in other ways. Then perhaps the rails in L4 wouldn't be so bad. I don't think it warrants fast travel in every layer because it really does ruin the initial experience, but hopefully you get my point that it's kinda 2 issues? Of how do we fix it for progressed players versus new players. There is no one simple fix in my eyes, and if it was one simple solution it affects the other side.
tender oxide
I agree that it's a player thing to a degree...? Players naturally will *always*...
Started thinking about a revamp of travel 2 days back and was trying to compile sensible ideas for a suggestion
-
World guarded l1 for new players to enjoy exploration. Requires "content" around food sources and basic materials in layer 1
-
Fast travel system around the lore of elevators. Make it level based /warp commands each level being more expensive and letting you teleport further down (last level could be the bottom of l2 perhaps). You can also implement a mia guild menu like interface that lists all your unlocked warps and lets you choose which one you want to port to
-
Make world guarded Elevator hubs in layer 1-2 that let you port up to Orth. Would encourage more players to travel manually to the hubs to then get to Orth instead of /suiciding. Those hubs could be part of the fast travel level system.
Those 3 changes will remove all the staircase and elevator problems in layer 1 and reduce elevators and staircases in layer 2 as all the older players have a more convenenient travel option to rely upon which doesnt negatively impact new players gaming experience and allows for more exploration type content in l1-l2
No idea as to how liked these ideas would be, but we tried thinking of ways that wouldn’t require too much coding nor too much extra design work
As to travel in between layers
There could be a way of cutting out /suicide as a way to reach Orth entirely, but dont have any ideas as to how to achieve it. By cutting out /suicide it would be right down the alley of being less reliant on Orth. Eventually you can cut out all bloack traders, but add villagers that allow leveling up the fast travel options from point 2 and 3 and allow leveling up the guild.
*Side note: These are more suggestions regarding a revamp of how the server runs things. Doesnt have much to do with the l4 railway problem
- Add world guarded hubs throughout all layers that allow warping from one to another hub. Those can be either unlocked via tough crafting recipes/item quests or they could be part of the fast travel leveling system. By doing so you lock out newer players from having access to an extensive network and all the older players can enjoy quality of life regarding travel. If the network is large enough you could potentially remove railway entirely and crack down more on elevators.
hollow sigil
This is what I've been getting at in #1201613234512334909
I agree it's tedious for us. Honestly if travel is slow as it is now and we get gravestones, I might quit depending on the implementation. A main reason I quit a lot of games is grind, and as is the main grind in MIA is descent. I get that it's the whole point of the abyss, but when travel stands in the way of mid-lategame SMP aspects of minecraft it becomes less of a end and more of a frustrating means to an end.
And yet, despite stairs being the thing that has kept me from quitting due to traversal grind, I understand how they somewhat ruin the actual point of traversal and exploration. I have not found a proper way to L5. I have taken stairs from l4 100% of the time. It has reduced my exploration.
Relics for traversal seem like a decent halfway option. as do l4-l5 exclusive rails. It makes traversal for building and non-exploration travel easy while making newer players actually have to explore. I have more thoughts but I'm gonna read what 4L just posted
Ok
I really like the idea of actually using the elevators/cranes. Iirc, the new geary system has stats and skills options, so perhaps it could be linked to that. I think in particular of the darksouls style visit to unlock style of warping. I still don't dislike the fact that we currently have to physically move through the abyss, so idk about /warp specifically, but I'm not sure how to make other elevators/cranes work in a way that won't just be abused by new players
One thing here I don't really agree with is world guarding all of L1. I think not being able to interact with L1 in a Minecraft-y way would probably also hurt player retention. I spent a week building in L1 when I got here. Having to push through without any interaction other than planned Content(TM) would have been a turnoff. I think it's good that the tutorial really kinda pitches you over the edge very quickly and into an area that feels both free and unsafe.
tender oxide
To me l1 would feel like a fair compromise, but world guard can be adjusted upwards or downwards
The more important part to to it are world guarded warp hubs to avoid traps
Seekers camp could be a perfect lowest available warp for a testing period
cold scarab
I have supported world-guarding L1 for the longest time, as many many players dislike the "anarchy" look of it and it puts them off however many players disputed against it. We had thought about do it this reset, but we decided collectively not to - now it would be quite hard to do that until a new reset
tender oxide
With the current economy levels could be stupidly expensive (one time purchase though)
Lvl 1 - 200 blocks below Orth, 10 Oc
Lvl 2 - 400 blocks below Orth, 25 Oc
Lvl 3 - 600 blocks below Orth, 75 Oc
And so on
cold scarab
Gondolas have been planned for years, it was a plan we had for adventure server which I felt would work well with survival if properly balanced.
The concept for adventure was to have some quest stuff to fix a gondola line and then you would be able to use them for a price of orth coins. (And the more quests you did the lower you could go, ending at some point in L2 probs Seeker Camp as you said)
Survival wouldnt have the quest element obviously, but the main point stands
Just never been finished code wise i believe and hasn't been prioritised
tender oxide
Is the implementation of quests feasible to happen before next reset? Cause if not I’d personally prefer to have a short term fix for current reset which lets you test the warps and get intel on how many folks will actually use them over staircases and whether it reduces staircases in l1-l2
cold scarab
Quests i highly doubt is feasible before next reset. But testing gondolas as a basic feature should be do-able
There was kind of a big grand plan with quests, it was a bigger picture with lots of little elements and features to it, so i'm not sure how we will implement that to survival but a lot more needs to be done first before we can consider it, if that makes sense?
hollow sigil
Seekers camp could be a perfect lowest available warp for a testing period
golden bridge to seeker camp seems like a good case study implementation
and honestly, even just a 1 layer warp (Orth->l2) would result in a lot less anarchy in L1. There's a lot of abandoned shacks and way too many stairs and platforms. Granted I've added to that somewhat, but i tried to do it in a somewhat lore friendly and unobtrusive way (building base into walls, keeping stairs following contours)
tender oxide
There was kind of a big grand plan with quests, it was a bigger picture with lot...
Yeah, I get what you mean. Implementing half bakes quests just to allow for a single intended feature would make things slightly weird. In my opinion it would be better to add some of the index quest rewards through other available means to test them out before adding quests next reset
If those can be finished by then
cold scarab
I think to start with we would definitely just test it with L1 and see if that helps clear some things up, then i think we can try pushing it to L2.
I'd rather not give people L2 immediately, we realise it's unbalanced, feel we need to remove it and then everyone complain. I hope that is reasonable
Can try and position the ends of the gondolas to different points in L1 as well so hopefully it gives people an opportunity to explore more than just directly below Guild HQ
hollow sigil
There are a few cranes in L1. good spot potentially
I have a base at one of them, could share coords for reference. and if the base needs to be nuked for this to work thats fine
cold scarab
There are a few cranes in L1. good spot potentially
We did build them because that was always the plan you see 
one step ahead of the game
hollow sigil
aha! lol
tender oxide
I can understand why you’d call it unbalanced, but please consider quality of life of older players. The community is small as it is. We only intend it to be a late game feature people unlock on their 50th trip down from Orth
hollow sigil
^
tender oxide
At that point pressing w on a staircase for 20min or typing /warp are the same amount of content
cold scarab
I'm not saying for guarantee it will be unbalanced, you just can't know until you try. Hence i want to try it in small stages 
hollow sigil
additive rather than subtractive i guess?
cold scarab
would rather get it right, by slowly adding it. Than fully adding it and it not being right then tweaking it or potentially removing it and then people complaining
cold scarab
additive rather than subtractive i guess?
Yeah essentially
hollow sigil
well, either way a pilot project would be neat
could also be a way to balance the OC economy with people having a bajillion OC
but I'd also prefer it be an unlock not a pay-per-use but thats just so it doesn't become a new grind
tender oxide
Can try and position the ends of the gondolas to different points in L1 as well ...
Yeah, is it possible to revert the builds there to their original state and world guard them? For a cleaner look
cold scarab
I can understand why you’d call it unbalanced, but please consider quality of li...
I understand, do remember i was once a player just like you. And i had to go through a period when the staff back in the day decided to yoink a load of the important rails to us and believe me i get the feeling. Just want to make sure it's balanced for everyone, but i do hear you all
hollow sigil
Yeah, is it possible to revert the builds there to their original state and worl...
fwiw, the one at my base on the south side of L1 is prettymuch untouched
cold scarab
Yeah, is it possible to revert the builds there to their original state and worl...
I think we would have major complaints from people who have built in L1 unfortunately
hollow sigil
it's got some stuff around it, like crops and trees, but the gondola station itself could def be world guarded and reverted
tender oxide
I think we would have major complaints from people who have built in L1 unfortun...
I only mean the small part of the gondolas and potentially the land patches right where the gondola ends up. Don’t know how many players that would actually hit
hollow sigil
well, me specifically, but like i said i'll take one for the team provided staff gimme time to move my shit out
cold scarab
Ahhhh yeah we would have to look at them, would be a case by case basis probably
cold scarab
well, me specifically, but like i said i'll take one for the team provided staff...
If this was the case we would help you move it (given you agreed to it), do not worry about that
hollow sigil
ok. well lemme know. I'll dm you the coord to clarify where it's at
cold scarab
Just plop em here, my DMs are closed
hollow sigil
ah fair 32817 124 241
cold scarab
cheers
Ill mention it to the devs, I think it was worked on a bit in the past
Obviously the focus at the moment does really lie with the bugs but we can certaintly chat about what we could do for it
hollow sigil
yee. bugs and update fixing comes first
tender oxide
Obviously the focus at the moment does really lie with the bugs but we can certa...
For sure, bugs take priority. Especially those pesky bonfires 
cold scarab
hollow sigil
Honestly I should relearn Java and start trying to help
cold scarab
gonna have to learn Kotlin 
cold scarab
The reason we haven't implemented graves is because we know about the bonfire issues.
The reason stairs haven't been removed is because we realised bonfires was a major issue so we just stopped removing them.
Rails was removed for a very different reason, and them not coming back in the same way isn't to punish players and I'm sorry you feel like that. Unfortunately we aren't always in position to deliver changes immediately as things don't always go to plan and we have only 3 devs who have their own work and lives, so we try our best but please don't expect us to be a flawless professional company who can deliver perfect updates and changes that have covered every flaw and consequence.
Removing the flower trader was to tackle the issue with Orth Coins, not to make it harder to get flowers. But people coming into suggestions suggesting alternatives to get them (which is what we planned to do with most villagers just hadn't had the time and majorly slowed by many unexpected bugs ) helps us to speed up the process.
I'm not sure if it is how you are wording things so pardon me if it's not your intention, but please do not patronise us for acting like we are finally not dismissing people. We have never dismissed people who have approached us with genuine suggestions that have been appropriately thought through and presented to us in a respectable way such as this one. We obviously have limits to what we can do as well, so even to people with good suggestions we sometimes can't do them, but it is never a case of us dismissing people.
cold scarab
Gondolas have been planned for years, it was a plan we had for adventure server ...
@pulsar robin Can you take a look at this btw, can't remember exactly what we decided on it when we were working on it before in terms of dev stuff
pulsar robin
gondolas? imean it was on the todo but its just not feasable in terms of time rn
its not been priority to implement atleast
cold scarab
Can we prioritise it after bugs are fixed? We were just gonna do it with a GUI, teleport and then some Orth Coin cost. It's just gonna be a bit of a trial run to start with tbh - just wanna see if it benefits the stair situation with L1
pulsar robin
its an idea that could be looked into sure
the more fleshed out the concept is the more likely i could do it
tender oxide
I dont know how much time it would take you to implement
could recycle the guild interface
with the lvl up and all
pulsar robin
guild menu wanted to make me kill myself
its doable tho but all those submenus 
but yeah the more its fleshed out the faster ill probably end up doing it
tender oxide
but yeah the more its fleshed out the faster ill probably end up doing it
want me to try to make a more detailed suggestion?
involving the levels, pricing and coords?
cold scarab
Yeah that would be much appreciated 
pulsar robin
@tender oxide it was closed it seems
prob closewd it on accident or something sorry
tender oxide
thank you, yeah, entirely disappeared for me
~ Layer 1 ~
Level 1 warp: Gondola2 (-328 -61 396) OR BelowGondola1 (150 -52 -424)
Level 2 warp: BelowGondola2 (-304 -204 404)
Level 3 warp: Golden Bell (15995 43 -31)
Level 4 warp: Gondola3 (16194 -235 -11)
Level 5 warp: Gondola4 (32818 125 214)
Level 6 warp: BelowGondola3 (32588 -189 -13)
Level 7 warp: BelowGondola4 (49202 151 175)
~ Layer 2 ~
Level 8 warp: BrokenWindmill (49065 -180 -131)
Level 9 warp:HalloweenDungeonAltar (65833 -85 316) OR HalloweenDungeonCrypt (65797 -132 194)
Level 10 warp: SeekersCamp (82630 168 -83)
~ Layer 3 ~
Pricing (One time purchase to unlock the warp):
Level 1: 10 oc
Level 2: 20 oc
Level 3: 30 oc
Level 4: 40 oc
Level 5: 50 oc
Level 6: 60 oc
Level 7: 80 oc
Total cost to reach Layer 2: 290 oc
Level 8: 100 oc
Level 9: 120 oc
Level 10: 140 oc
Total cost to get to Seekers Camp: 650 oc
For traveling you either have an interface that opens up and shows you all your available warps. Clicking one makes you warp. OR we can have a warp system based on villager to villager. You have to warp to level 1, then right click a villager there to warp to level 2 and so on.
Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5
Level 6
Level 7
Level 8
Level 9
Level 10
Optional Layer 3 warp as Level 11: SmallHut (82166 -116 62) Price: 60 oc (It’s fairly close to Seekers camp)
Level 11
hollow sigil
level 5 even has a gondola modeled that could be used as a specific warp spot
cold scarab
Think we will definitely just start with L1 to test it, but thank you for providing other spots that will be useful in the future.
@pulsar robin I can do a GUI perhaps tomorrow, can use it for my portfolio? Would need to decide on the layout for buttons and stuff though, could simply just be button for each different place and can do a page for each layer? (So for now it would just be one)
pulsar robin
sure
last elm
Dunno if it’s too late or not but
I was thinking a more classic “beacon tower” type warp point would work
In order to unlock the warp, you have to get there on foot first
And the price, if there is one, can also be distance based, with a higher total multiplier in deeper layers
This would also let you add warps in more scenic locations instead of incrementally
The okibo line already uses a distance based pricing system, so doing something similar should be fine
If you want it more dynamic, players could be allowed to create their own beacons by paying a massive price
New players would not have access to any beacons, since they must be found first
While old players can quickly warp back
You may even be able to repurpose the beacon block for this
paper temple
Wasn’t closed by accident, op has stated in private chats that they don’t feel heard or understood when trying to explain themselves here so they decided to close down the post. If you see the post closed down again just make a new one, they’re tired of this one and will probably continue to try and close it down.
cold scarab
Oh, well that's doesn't sound good. They are very much heard, they said it themselves I thought? I would hope us acting on this and actually arranging stuff to implement to improve this would also help back that?
I'd appreciate it if they didn't close it again, this is a good place to discuss this stuff and reference stuff previously mentioned regarding it, but they don't have to contribute if they don't want to?
If it's a notification thing, they should just be able to mute it I believe
deft onyx
guild menu wanted to make me kill myself
its relatively easy to do through something like deluxe menu's and base unlocking them around positions, idk if ya'll use any gui based plugins
personally i'm not for the 'one time cost' of warps and think layer 1-2 can be perma unlocked but anything past 3 'lore wise' would be pretty impractical to have a proper gondola so paying a 'fee' if you want to go further just kinda makes sense and i'm sure every late game person can afford it, from what i remember getting to the seeker camp isn't too difficult for moderatly experienced people and a 'path exists' which riko and reg didn't take since they went through the slums instead of the official path.
i'm sure the later game players wouldn't complain too much as even just skipping the MASSIVE layer 1 and 2 is a huge difference in time as most bases around nestled around 1-3 and anyone living in 4 and 5 shouldn't be complainin too much and atleast the 'movement relics' will still be relevant
the biggest debate in relics right now that we have is how to handle the 'usage' whether to make it limited durability with no way to repair or allow mending/unlimited durability and how to 'price the cost' as its designed to be a midgame to post netherite feature for convenience
then theirs the whole OTHER mob/relic update which makes movement over 2-4x faster with the special mob interactions and everything else with the designer team knowing exactly what i'm talking about
hollow sigil
"makes movement over 4 times faster"
cue kuon ptsd overdrive
sharp ridge
I'm literally expecting to be misunderstood again for even trying to state how that response made me feel.
I closed this post because of how I was made to feel, not because "my ideas aren't being listened to/done".
pulsar robin
I'm not sure if it is how you are wording things so pardon me if it's not your intention, but please do not patronise us for acting like we are finally not dismissing people.
It seems to have been made very clear that it might be a wrong interpretation? Getting context around intent from just messages is not always easy
Madi clarified that it might not be the way you intended it to come across, but if it was well xyz
Think it is important to understand that it is not easy to get a persons intent in every situation from just text
If you are misunderstood again simply clarifdy that it wasnt your intent and we all move forward that way, it is not worse than so
As to closing the suggestion, it does nothing but hurt the further development of the idea
The suggestion has continued past your initial suggestion so you shutting it down is nothing but counter intuative
If you for some reason dont want to keep up with it, you should be able to just "unfollow" the thread or something
cold scarab
Yeah, essentially what Boy has said.
And we don't ever have a problem with people bringing up grievances if it's done so in a respectful manner. This probably isn't the suggestion forum for it, no, probably better to do it a new one.
shadow coyote
the biggest debate in relics right now that we have is how to handle the 'usage'...
Yeah it depends a lot on how easy or hard it is to obtain and the strength of the relic is I would say.
Powerful + Easy to obtain = No mending
Weak + Hard to obtain = Mending
So relics that share one of each side will be hard to figure out for sure. But I am sure you do know that mending makes it so much more convenient. Tho it supports people to use it more often since it removes the negative thoughts that you need to save the durability. So it all depends on how much you want the specific type of relics to be used.
Probably wrong place to share my view on this, but I hope you like it anyways! 
tidal depot
Yeah it depends a lot on how easy or hard it is to obtain and the strength of th...
Its likely if relics came out that they wouldnt have enchantments
Specifically mendin since you can always use it then
I imagine devs would want it to be the type you carefully consider whether it should be used
last elm
Well some relics should have the ability to be repaired, or very high durability
Blaze trap has a durability, but gangway is probably rechargeable in some form, and zoaholic probably doesn’t have a durability
gritty pagoda
blaze reap*
last elm
Autocorrect hates me