♡ i am still building my first pc ever ♡

[vast geyser]

matx actually

[spare sedge]

i already chose the 990 pro as a filler storage decision

[lusty orchid]

depends on how you have it set up i guess

[vast geyser]

ok

[teal pond]

If you dont mind the price just get that one

it’s the best one

[vast geyser]

i meaan

for pcie 4.0 sure

[spare sedge]

why would i mind the price.

[teal pond]

it’s expensive

for an ssd

[spare sedge]

its only $300

[vast geyser]

u forgot dream has more money than ion tiriac

[spare sedge]

thats so cheap

[lusty orchid]

you should base the storage choice on their use case, not that it being the best of them

[spare sedge]

like i understand 1k storage being too pricey

[lusty orchid]

no, no it's not

$36 for 1tb is cheap

[vast geyser]

hes my favorite rich person

[spare sedge]

you dont even know my use case.

you keep saying its just gaming

[vast geyser]

none of it requires fast ssds

[teal pond]

its gaming #1 productivity #2

Right?

[vast geyser]

folding

[spare sedge]

i put it as that when i was choosing a cpu

[lusty orchid]

nope, wrong, didn't say it was just gaming

[vast geyser]

most of ur use case requires a speedy gpu

[spare sedge]

i just dont know why you think giving me less options is a good idea

itll just take me longer to find out

[pure mica]

[vast geyser]

ok scrooge mcduck

[lusty orchid]

not really, it gives you the more realistic options for your use case

[teal pond]

it also narrows down the options so its easier to choose

[vast geyser]

wait thats like contradictory

[pure mica]

No shit

[lusty orchid]

you literally have the best options for your use case already set for cpu and gpu (gpu being quite literally overkill in itself)

[teal pond]

cpu is also second best for gaming and awesome for productivity

with a 2 fps difference

[lusty orchid]

the storage side of it doesn't realistically require anything more than gen 3 drives especially just for games and file storage

AI side of things you'll likely need 64gb of ram

mainly due to training for the AI

[candid plume]

More like giving you more options will lead to longer time, since you will study every smallest element, no matter how far people help u. The point of build-a-pc tickets is that people filter your stuff and choose the best for u to make it easier.

[lusty orchid]

or help to filter what's needed and not needed

[candid plume]

yea

[spare sedge]

you dont even know what realistic is for me

[teal pond]

If your building at that kind of budget you might as well go with 64gb of ram, it doesn’t hurt

[candid plume]

but i feel like a lot of the help is refused

[pure mica]

👆

[spare sedge]

and we are going to keep going just like that

[candid plume]

I think at one point this thread will get closed again

[vast geyser]

so, just pick every best component, yeah?

[candid plume]

bc it might lead to nothing

[vast geyser]

hx1500i here you come

[teal pond]

Lol

[lusty orchid]

ax1600 you mean

[spare sedge]

anyway im at work

[vast geyser]

wait yeah why am i listening to ethan about psus

[spare sedge]

tonight im going to compare the m.2 slots on motherboards

[vast geyser]

thats on me

[lusty orchid]

or a bequiet dark power 12/13 or dark power pro 11/12

[vast geyser]

or evga p2

[teal pond]

who actually needs a 1600 watt psu though

[lusty orchid]

nothing to compare really

[vast geyser]

or apparently the evga t2 well

https://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=220-T2-1600-X1

133A on a rail

[teal pond]

guys who actually needs a 1600 watt psu

like what use case would that be

[vast geyser]

why the fuck not atp

[candid plume]

oven

[teal pond]

Threadripper sandwich

[vast geyser]

ax1600i is pretty sick actually

[teal pond]

It’s cool to have one I guess

you will never need to upgrade again

pretty much

[lusty orchid]

people who power unlock an intel cpu and oc a 3090/3090ti/4090

and that's without undervolting

[teal pond]

oh

[vast geyser]

so its components are made of fucking meteorite
and it also has a 10 year warranty

and is fully digital

[lusty orchid]

it was essentially one of the better seasonic based psu's

[vast geyser]

"one of the better"

[lusty orchid]

pretty much the only corsair line that was seasonic oem

though for some, the cwt oem'd ones are way better built

[lusty orchid]

if you can find a decent b650 mobo, that has 2 fully electrically wires pcie x16 slots, dropping to a 4070ti and getting an a100 would be way better

especially on the AI front

the a100 has no display output due to it being an accelerator card and can be choosen as either 40gb vram or 80gb vram

[pure mica]

A100 cost hell a lot still

[lusty orchid]

they want to over pay on a ton of it

[pure mica]

💀

[lusty orchid]

might as well get something that realistically would help with folding, boinc and AI even more so

[pure mica]

Let get a h100 gpu then

[lusty orchid]

you basically give a 12-16gb vram gpu, a 40-80gb boost using the a100

it requires a full pcie x16 slot

[pure mica]

If we gonna over pay get this

[vast geyser]

hows the power consumption on the a100 though

[lusty orchid]

250w

[vast geyser]

hm, neat

[pure mica]

The price of one tought…

💀

[lusty orchid]

yeah, 5k+

[pure mica]

Ye

[lusty orchid]

the amd equivalent is the mi300

[pure mica]

Most cost less

[lusty orchid]

if you really wanted to go overkill for ai though, rtx a6000 + a100

[lusty orchid]

hah.... no

[pure mica]

How much

[lusty orchid]

5k+ again if i remember correctly

[pure mica]

💀

[pure mica]

Rtx a6000 ada + a100 would be more overkill

[vast geyser]

..

[lusty orchid]

nope, not really, you'd get a 4090 over an a6000 ada

[pure mica]

4090 + a100

🤔

[vast geyser]

power draw might be a bit too high

[lusty orchid]

yup, 1600w would be required minimum

[pure mica]

Still would be possible

[vast geyser]

its a van

[lusty orchid]

you realise the power would be drained quicker than 2 shakes

[pure mica]

https://tenor.com/view/troll-pilled-gif-19289988

[lusty orchid]

and i suggested 4x 400w solar panels for their build when it comes to the van as it is

that much power draw at once would mean you would need to double up the solar panel amount

so 8x400w, there's only so much real-estate on the roof you can fit a solar panel on for

when it comes to the vanlife you have to balance power draw against power generated

preferably power generated being double that of the power draw

[brave brook]

Because night

[spare sedge]

quantity
compatibility sizes
and speeds

[brave brook]

all m-key will be 2280, and almost all nvme ssds are 2280, so size is not an issue. as for speed, all will be at least gen 4

[spare sedge]

way "better" in what regard?

what is the a100

[vast geyser]

a gpu

nvidia a100

[brave brook]

a very expensive data center gpu for ai

[spare sedge]

whats a h100 gpu lol

[vast geyser]

another nvidia gpu

but thats upwards to 30k

[brave brook]

the a100 but more powerful

[spare sedge]

a6000 ada and ada 6000 are awful

[lusty orchid]

correction, an accelerator card

[pure mica]

Not me saying it lol ik

[pearl heath]

Well they're great for what they're intended to be used for

Just, not for your use case at all

[brave brook]

theyre enterprise anyway, so irrelevent here

[vast geyser]

aaaaa

[spare sedge]

well it is if theres an mkey that isnt 2280

[vast geyser]

i feel like an idiot now 💔

[spare sedge]

so its really just quantity which is 2 or 3

[pearl heath]

All M-keyed SSD that you will end up buying will be 2280

[brave brook]

theyll all support 2280, some will support other sizes

[lusty orchid]

2280 being the optimal size, quantity depends on the mobo, and speed really not important due to what you plan on doing

[spare sedge]

no like the 4090 also out performs them

[pearl heath]

22110 is reserved for datacentres

[pearl heath]

In the tasks that you are going to use the 4090 for? AI stuff and all that?

[spare sedge]

im saying if you have 3 m.2 slots and one is 2260. its basically not useable

[vast geyser]

speed doesnt matter cause youre going for 990 pros anyway apparently

[brave brook]

they will all be 2280

[open iris]

No (99% for legal reasons) consumer motherboard does that though

[pure mica]

She doing like me lol

[lusty orchid]

and that's only on 1 mobo, doesn't mean it's all mobo's

[vast geyser]

why r u here anytime someone mentions an expensive component

r u mr krabs

[lusty orchid]

she's not chosen it, just using it as a place holder currently

[pure mica]

Expensive taste 🤔

[vast geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-mr-krabs-money-cash-gif-24741861

thats how i imagine you

[pure mica]

Lol

[lusty orchid]

last mobo she was looking at had 1 slot that was 2260

[brave brook]

ok, so maybe 1 does? just skip those then

[lusty orchid]

yup but we've already seen what dream is like

the worst bit is no mobo has been selected

[brave brook]

:/

[lusty orchid]

so currently searching up on any storage choice is moot

[brave brook]

why tf. i already told her what to get

it seriously shouldnt be this complicated

[vast geyser]

you know the answer isnt cheap drives..

"cheap"

[brave brook]

no reason to get more tho

[vast geyser]

dick measurign contest

[pearl heath]

They want to learn about every component
While I try to steer them away from the less useful things to know about, I will be happy to answer more relevant questions
This is less of a building thread and more of a learning thread

[thin wasp]

Guess that’s my time for me to show up.

[pearl heath]

As much as we'd love for it to be a build a PC thread, of course

[pure mica]

What a about using your mod power and tell him to focus on the pc build🤔

[brave brook]

borderline abuse of power

[vast geyser]

that would be abuse

[pearl heath]

They aren't breaking any rules 🤷

[lusty orchid]

with a steep learning curve to be added

[brave brook]

she says she googles stuff, but im kinda doubting it

[pearl heath]

No need to be mean about it

[brave brook]

im not trying to be, but so many of the questions are basically google questions, its getting tiresome

[pearl heath]

While true, you are under no obligation to answer if you don't feel like it

[thin wasp]

@spare sedge you buy anything yet? (Photo for attention)

[vast geyser]

nothing is bought 💔

[thin wasp]

Yikes man

It’s a dream build….

[vast geyser]

literally

[vale prairie]

Ba-dum-tss

[lusty orchid]

i am so tempted to put up a bing crosby song on this tbh

because a white christmas, will happen before the build

[spare sedge]

im fine with 2260 if its compat with 2280.

im just saying that tonight i will be looking at mb storage and comparing the options.

i already know 2260 / 2280 is fine. im not asking questions about it rn

[pearl heath]

Just a touch strange to be looking at all the options when quite literally every single AM5 motherboard will be compatible with 99% of the SSDs you will actually buy, all 1 of them

[lusty orchid]

you say this but you've not even sorted out what mobo you'll be using

once that's sorted, then you know what storage you can use

i know, to logical a way to do it, but it works

[haughty quail]

yeah exactly bro

[brave brook]

mobo should be chosen first, because its more expensive than storage, and determines the storage needed

[lusty orchid]

and what storage you get to use

[brave brook]

^meant that

[lusty orchid]

tbf it works both ways

[brave brook]

yeah, "what storage you get to use" makes more sense tho imo

[lusty orchid]

tbf, we're getting close to the point, one of us will rub 2 sticks together with some sticky back plastic and a couple plastic tubs and end up with a jet pack or something running on chewing gum

either that, or i've watched to much McGuyver over the years

[vale prairie]

The fact that dreams threads have reach a total of over 30,000 messages yet she still hasn’t picked a motherboard

How long are we going to help her since clearly this is going nowhere

[brave brook]

She won’t listen to us saying you don’t need to know every fucking thing about every component

[haughty quail]

yeah

this is crazy

[vale prairie]

It’s pretty fucking simple to pick a part (such as the motherboard), first sort from low - high or ratings high - low, then filter by chipset and look at whichever has the best reviews/ratings that fits into your desired aesthetic.

[haughty quail]

exactly

mobo doesnt matter too much

thats how i got a b450m hdv r4.0

[vast geyser]

....the point of the thread isnt to pick the parts

[vale prairie]

Okay, but that doesn’t mean everything requires several hours of research

[haughty quail]

fr ^

[teal pond]

she wants in-depth knowledge

[haughty quail]

too much mfer

its been like 6 weeks

[vale prairie]

When has anyone ever had to explain fucking pata outside of this thread

[haughty quail]

and we aint even on the mobo

[haughty quail]

i didnt even know what that was

[vale prairie]

Pata is irrelevant technology, it’s ancient!

[haughty quail]

yep

[vale prairie]

Sata before it was cool

[haughty quail]

i said didnt

not dont

[vale prairie]

🙃

[haughty quail]

is okay goofy

[vale prairie]

I don’t even see why she needs “in-depth knowledge”

[haughty quail]

yeah

she will just build it and forget everything

like me

🤯

[vale prairie]

I bet she doesn’t even remember the message 6352 messages ago

[haughty quail]

idk even know what we were talkin about that far back

usbs proably

[haughty quail]

ohh ohh

ik

idk

[lusty orchid]

yup

usb's

[haughty quail]

wow i guessed that

[lusty orchid]

ram also

[vale prairie]

Ram was way further back

[haughty quail]

prob cuz we talked about usbs forever

[vale prairie]

Ram was somewhere before 5000 messages

[haughty quail]

ok

[vale prairie]

Maybe even the previous thread

[haughty quail]

we cant even see that far back

[haughty quail]

i think it was

[vale prairie]

I keep accidentally pressing something on my phone and it sends me to the start of the thread but I don’t know what it is 🗿

[haughty quail]

lol

[brave brook]

do you have an iphone? iphones have a thing where you tap the top of the screen and it sends you to the top of whatever window youre in

[vale prairie]

Yes

Cool, I figured it out

Well you did

I mean it will have no applicable use outside of this thread but cool

[spare sedge]

i have a database

[spare sedge]

i didnt choose a cooler or storage first. anything about those parts are placeholders

and i am choosing a mb. but i literally didnt know anything about storage at first

so i literally had to figure that out first in order to pick a mb

the point of the thread IS to pick my pc parts lmao

after mb storage stuff im gonna work on another part

like maybe audio

[pearl heath]

You're just doing it on the most scenic route possible, is what everyone has been complaining about

Like, a lot of the people who buy PC parts and build their own PCs haven't a clue for how PCIe works, or what it even stands for
For storage, all they need to know is "is it fast??" and we recommend the SN770 or the P3 Plus and yes, they're fast

They provide the storage space and speed required, and they're happy, that is all

[haughty quail]

really people get pc help and dont know what pcie is for?

damn bro

thats just sad

i forget what pcie stands for but ik what it does at least

but i aint learnin about usbs for a month

no offense dream

[spare sedge]

unfortunately this is just how i am with everything i buy.

like everything everything. sometimes i just wont spend money cause it takes me too long to do the research

so like many household items.

even food

[open iris]

I would hate you irl no offense

[spare sedge]

actually you would love me irl.

on discord you hate me.

[pearl heath]

Are you really making uneducated purchases if someone else has done the learning for you, as we have done in our time of messing around with PC parts?

[haughty quail]

i prob would

i kinda hate you in dc

[pearl heath]

You're trying to compress multiple years of learning about how parts work and such into less than a few months

[haughty quail]

pov: me

i forgot most the shit i learnt as well

[spare sedge]

yeah thats prolly true.

[haughty quail]

i get that you wanna be extra careful

but like

this is complete overkill

[spare sedge]

so i finally found some benchmarks on ssds

they were really hard to find but from the looks of it there are

sequential r/w

and random r/w

[haughty quail]

yes

[spare sedge]

and then iops

[pearl heath]

If you're moving huge amounts of small files, you only should look at random r/w
If you're moving small amounts of huge files, you only should look at sequential r/w

IOPS is another way of discerning random r/w

[spare sedge]

so i hear sequential is the marketed one and its the one that matters the least

so is iops random r/w more important than regular random r/w

and is writing better than reading

[haughty quail]

bro what?

[haughty quail]

theyre both required

ok im getting confused

bye

neither are more important

[brave brook]

writing is always faster than reading, and is the marketed one (because its the bigger number). random is kinda important, but ssds have pretty good random

[brave brook]

that is very unfortunate....

[spare sedge]

yeah and also with food. i eat not really the most normal meals either.

like i never eat what i feel like or what i want

i only eat for stats

[brave brook]

uhhh, ok.....

lol

[haughty quail]

uhhh

[brave brook]

back to the topic....do you know if you want gen 3 ssds or gen 4?

[spare sedge]

at least gen 4

not sata

[brave brook]

well yeah, not sata makes sense

[spare sedge]

all the benchmarks put 2tb drives in the top ranks and thats confusing

so idk if i want 2tb or 4tb or 8tb. but prolly not 8 tb

[brave brook]

id recommend 500gb for boot, and 1 4tb

if you need more (at least with an atx x670e mb), youll have 2 extra m.2 slots

[spare sedge]

my thing with 8tb is that its overpriced and is likely to drop in price.

[brave brook]

not anytime soon, until more maunfactures make 8tb drives

[spare sedge]

but itd be nice to have the big one now and just build from there

[brave brook]

4tb is a nice "big one"

especially something like the teamgroup mp34. it is gen 3, but thats still fast, and its also tlc

gen 3 is quite literally half the price

[spare sedge]

Ig the max will always be superseded

So is a gen 5 4tb faster than a 4th gen 8tb

[brave brook]

yes....

[spare sedge]

They are cheaper too

And many mbs support 5th gen now

[brave brook]

what is

dont get gen 5, its not worth it

[spare sedge]

5th gen is cheaper than 8tb

[brave brook]

you cant compare them

you cant compare a 4tb gen 5 to an 8tb gen 4

theyre fundamentally different

[spare sedge]

how so

[brave brook]

because theyre different sizes and different pcie generations

i mean you cant compare the prices

[spare sedge]

i just feel like yeah storage is supposed to be storage so cap should be more important. the jump from gen 4 to gen 5 is like 4k to 8k

i want to see which drives have the best randoms

even if its marginal

[brave brook]

and useless for all but the most enthusiastic file copiers

[brave brook]

its not worth....the effort to reasearch

[spare sedge]

well i do plan on video editing

[brave brook]

gen 4 will most likely be fine for that

[spare sedge]

i will find options for all 3 categories and weigh the pros and cons of each and narrow it down to one

is it okay to start with just one drive?

[brave brook]

yeah, at your price point though, i think itd be better to have a small drive for boot, and a larger drive for other files (games, videos, etc)

watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y7ZpFfZXeM&t=323s

[brave brook]

i dont think a 4tb gen 5 ssd exists

[spare sedge]

oh i think i figured it out

the 2tb ssds popping up on the top charts must be a lower cell nand

plc is basically not out. the 8tb must be qlc.

tlc must be 4tb

so maybe the 2tb drives are slc or mlc

[brave brook]

Nah they’re all tlc

mlc and slc aren’t worth it for consumer ssds

Every ssd is either tlc or qlc

[spare sedge]

its just so strange cause didnt we start with slc

where are all the slc and mlc drives then

are they all industrial / enterprise

[lusty orchid]

if it's the ones from UBM, then you haven't found a benchmark at all

[spare sedge]

its just passmark

do ssds have manufacturer websites too

like mbs

[lusty orchid]

check puget system ones, also ones that have used crystaldiskmark

[lusty orchid]

quite obviously yes

[spare sedge]

its not obvious

i didnt even know mbs had one

[lusty orchid]

it really is

[spare sedge]

what is puget system

i see everyone always use crystaldiskmark

[lusty orchid]

a test suite, that covers cpu, gpu, ssd. ram ect

[spare sedge]

whats a test suite

[lusty orchid]

because quick and easy way to see for sequentials and randoms

[spare sedge]

like is it the name of the benchmark

is there a website or a link

[lusty orchid]

yes

[spare sedge]

or is it a lab

oh okay

[lusty orchid]

yes, you will need to google it

or you can use sites like tomshardware/anandtech to see their results

reviews also cover benchmark tests

we've had mlc drives for consumer use

and the google docs spreadsheet i linked way earlier tells you what nand types most ssd's use

[brave brook]

It’s because slc and mlc are faster, but way more expensive. Tlc is a great middle ground

[brave brook]

Also, did you watch this?

[lusty orchid]

slower but have higher endurance

[brave brook]

Slc is faster than tlc. That’s why it’s used as a cache in tlc ssds. The ssd dynamically sets an slc cache by not utilizing all the bit layers

[lusty orchid]

nope, tlc nand is faster than slc

the fastest nand is plc but has a much lower endurance

[brave brook]

I’ve heard it the opposite

[lusty orchid]

remember slc nand is only 1 bit

[brave brook]

Yeah, so it’s easier to access each bit

[lusty orchid]

tlc nand is 3 bit

slc nand has the highest endurance in comparison

but as a whole for data storage it's the slowest of them

as a cache it's ideal because at 1bit you can put data on and off load it to the nand flash for storage quite easily

easier access does not mean it's faster in the long run

the one currently with optimal endurance while having equal transfering speed is tlc nand

[lusty orchid]

as cache it's faster, but as a complete storage medium it's slow

[brave brook]

That’s probably true

Idk where I heard that

[lusty orchid]

when you can only write 1 bit at a time to it

rather than 3+ bits at a time to a tlc or higher nand

it's like smr vs cmr in regards to hdd's

[brave brook]

Cmr is faster but lower capacity tho

[lusty orchid]

not really lower capacity

you can easily get 18tb cmr drives

but your data access times is half that of an smr drive

[brave brook]

Dang, half?

[lusty orchid]

yes

[brave brook]

That’s insane

[lusty orchid]

6-6.5ms for cmr, 13ms for smr

it takes longer to write on a smr drive

[brave brook]

Yeah bc of the overlapping magnetic things

[lusty orchid]

in the case of slc, if it's used as a storage medium rather than as a cache, you essentially have the same effect as smr

it also has less storage capacity

[brave brook]

ic

[lusty orchid]

as sequentially, you have to wait for 1 slc nand to clear before you can write to it

with a a row of them, as you can write to them all at once

but each one has to wait for the other to clear to be able to pass on the info

[brave brook]

Ohhh ok

[lusty orchid]

so it ends up being like a traffic jam but for the data

if you treat nand like a highway/motorway you'll understand nand much easier

1 bit = 1 lane

[orchid gate]

You won’t be doing 20 hour vids unless they’re game playthroughs

[lusty orchid]

3 bits = 3 lanes

[brave brook]

Hmmmmm, that’s interesting

[lusty orchid]

you can offload 1 bit onto 3 bit faster than 3 bits onto 1 bit

but the more you use 3 bits, the more it has to endure over time

[brave brook]

Yeah

[lusty orchid]

due to wear and tear

which is where trim comes to hand

it's no difference than when highway/motorway maintenance happens

[brave brook]

It’s a lil slower, but not halted completely

[lusty orchid]

exactly

[brave brook]

That makes sense

[lusty orchid]

and over time after a certain point, the tlc nand stops being able to write to

but can still be read

leaving them in a read only position

like what RoM's do

[brave brook]

All nand can almost infinitely be read

[lusty orchid]

(read only memory)

though a ssd needs to have power to maintain the data on it, which makes it poor for cold storage

[brave brook]

So that’s what ROM means (I never knew but didn’t think about or care what it meant)

[lusty orchid]

eprom = erase-programable rom

and eeprom is the same, but i've forgotten what the other 'E' is for

the fact you have to flash bios, shows that it's an IC/silicon chip that is known as an EEprom

we all know ram as it is

[brave brook]

Random access memory

[lusty orchid]

yup

[brave brook]

So many abbreviations

[lusty orchid]

how about sdram?

the ic's ram is made of

[brave brook]

Oh

What’s the difference between sdram and dram, or is dram just an abbreviation of sdram

[lusty orchid]

single density/single data rate ram

essentially an abreviation if i remember correctly

[brave brook]

https://www.minitool.com/news/sdram-vs-dram.html

[lusty orchid]

but dram like sdram is highly volatile in data storage

[brave brook]

Which is why ram as storage will never ever work

[lusty orchid]

it'll never work long time

it only works as a temporary highly volatile storage for oyu to quickly access data to be able to transfer it somewhere else or to act as a cached drive that can be loaded up on the fly

hence the term 'ram-drive'

[brave brook]

So basically what ram is used for anyway

[lusty orchid]

yup

[brave brook]

Lol nice

[lusty orchid]

and tbf ever since the days of dos ram-drives have been a thing

mainly you see it labelled as 'X'

ie x:\

quick and dirty installer drive created by your os for installing it to the main storage

[brave brook]

Hmmm, ok

[lusty orchid]

it used to be done as a way to load windows from a cd

because dos without the ram drive being made would only install from a floppy drive

now, if you can imagine windows being installed from 34-35 floppy disks just for win95/98

[brave brook]

Oh boy

[lusty orchid]

2000+ disks would have been needed for windows 10

[brave brook]

And we get bored plugging in 1 usb drive

[lusty orchid]

different implementation, same method tbh

as a result we now use usb to do what we did with floppies, cds and dvds

[brave brook]

especially with usb 5Gb, it’s miles faster and higher capacity

[lusty orchid]

well technically usb 3.2

but yes

[brave brook]

Fuck it, it’s called usb 5Gb

Linus was right to call usb by its speed

[lusty orchid]

that's mainly usb 3.1

[brave brook]

?

[lusty orchid]

but otherwise yeah, soon it be worth only denoting usb by it's speed especially when usb4 becomes mainstream

[brave brook]

Yeah

[brave brook]

Is usb 3.2 gen 1x2 used at all?

[lusty orchid]

what is known as usb 3.0 is actually usb 3.1

[lusty orchid]

yes, on usb C

[brave brook]

So all 10Gb usb c is that?

[lusty orchid]

essentially yes

though there are also those that are 3.2 x2

and are 10Gb/s

[brave brook]

Wdym

[lusty orchid]

which allows you to do a combination of dp/hdmi- alt alongside 10Gbe over it

[brave brook]

What’s 3.2 x2

[lusty orchid]

maxes out at 20Gb/s

[brave brook]

Oh that one

[lusty orchid]

tb3 can be done over it

thunderbolt3

[brave brook]

Oh dang

So that’s how framework has unofficial thunderbolt support

[lusty orchid]

essentially yes

as TB is a usb-if standard

so depending on the cable and port

it's possible to do equal to TB over usb C

[brave brook]

Oh

[brave brook]

Yeah, for usb 4 and tb4, tb4 is just the top spec of usb 4

[lusty orchid]

just like for PD over usbC it depends on the cable and the port

[brave brook]

usb c is totally gonna solve all the different usb cable problems

[lusty orchid]

it essentially already has but also has it's own issues

as a cable needs to be clearly labelled for what it can handle for PD

as currently at a max, 240w is the maximum rated current

that's 20v 12a

[brave brook]

Hefty

XD

[lusty orchid]

well in comparison, the power brick for a dell latitude under it's standard barrel connector does 19.1v 3.5a

and it uses 3 wires in the process for that

[brave brook]

So usb pd would do that instead?

[lusty orchid]

braided sheathing for the ground, a thick internal wire for the mains, and a thin wire as a sensing wire

[lusty orchid]

yup, it can

still the cable would have to be clearly marked up for it

[brave brook]

Yeah, of course

[lusty orchid]

and under usbC specs, if it's not clearly marked up, it is to be treated no better than a cable that does usb2 speeds and power rating

which is 5v 500-900mA

[brave brook]

Trash in comparison 😂

Well, I gtg now

[lusty orchid]

basically an apple cable

[brave brook]

Cya

[lusty orchid]

cya

[lusty orchid]

not any time soon tbh, though if you plan on video editing, it depends on what level of video editing you're doing, if it's hobby based you can get away with using a gen3 drive that has a decent dram cache, though yes a gen4 drive with cache is better for the use, if it is production level then a gen 4 with dram cache drive should be used

also if you wished for a bigger drive, you can always do a nvme raid drive, though that requires using the first pcie x16 slot in the process

as that will be the one that can handle bifurcation the best

though certain branded model motherboards can hand doing that and also having a gpu in the second x16 using full speed and lanes for it

though i'd advice against doing nvme raid for now til you're more experienced with your own system

you're sooner to see a 4tb drive to drop in price sooner than a 8tb drive

[spare sedge]

yes

[spare sedge]

cmr is for hdds right

[spare sedge]

i said this earlier too.

wheres the benchmarks ;-;

[lusty orchid]

it's a suite to benchmark the hardware, any results for certain products is shown in reviews on sites like anandtech or tomshardware

which i did say before

[spare sedge]

yeah but idk what that means ;-;

been on tomshardware too

which was also kind of ass

[lusty orchid]

well a suite is a collection of programs used for doing certain things, in this case for testing multiple aspects of a pc, based on performance (speeds and endurance), to power draws of each component

[spare sedge]

so intel optane does have slc

which is interesting cause i had already heard about optane

[lusty orchid]

yes mainly as cache

[spare sedge]

so when you say that

ik they do slc qlc mix

[lusty orchid]

but optane is no longer a thing

[spare sedge]

yep its discontinued

i wonder why

[lusty orchid]

yes, slc as the cache, qlc as the storage nand

[spare sedge]

i dont think the intel optane is slc qlc mix

[spare sedge]

so the dram is literally slc

[lusty orchid]

nope

different type of ic technology in comparison

dram cache is volatile, slc cache is not

[spare sedge]

what is ic tho

[lusty orchid]

intergrated circuit

it's the silicon chips you see on everything

[spare sedge]

so a slc qlc mix would be dramless

[lusty orchid]

yes

[spare sedge]

i wonder if dram is better than pseudo slc

[lusty orchid]

p5800x being the fastest dramless ssd

[lusty orchid]

not always

[spare sedge]

how would you even know that its the fastest

[lusty orchid]

performance benchmarks that was done on it

checking multiple reviews

[spare sedge]

i wish i could see

[lusty orchid]

google.com would tell you

90% of this is all findable on google tbh

gen 5 nvme drives now are the fastest but it doesn't mean it's the best to get

and drive selection is based upon use case

[spare sedge]

oh wait. now ik what naol meant

so they have enterprise ssds that arent on pcpp?

[lusty orchid]

but also drive selection can only happen realistically once a mobo is sorted out

[lusty orchid]

correct, no enterprise drive will be on pcpp

[spare sedge]

naol recommended the p5800x or 905p but the 905p ik now is the optane

optane is kind of on pcpp

[lusty orchid]

p5800x is also optane

[spare sedge]

cant find the p5800x

oh

[lusty orchid]

consumer models, not enterprise

[spare sedge]

those are the big names

samsung 990 pro, crucial t700, and intel optane

how do i get on the enterprise models so i can view the enterprise ssds lol

[lusty orchid]

t700 is a gen5 drive, the brand itself is crucial, and their longest lasting model is a sata 2.5 drive known as the mx500

[lusty orchid]

google.com and searching for specific enterprise models

[spare sedge]

i havent found shit

[lusty orchid]

but don't ever expect an enterprise model to be realistically good performance wise

[spare sedge]

im on t700 product page but theres nothing there either

and obviously not other drives

and it doesnt tell you p5800x

or 905p

[lusty orchid]

doesn't it??

[spare sedge]

like based off passmark i would just go the t700

where do i go for all the enterprise drives in one place

i LITERALLY dont know all the random enterprise model names lmao

i didnt even know the model was enterprise until i did

[lusty orchid]

t700

[spare sedge]

it doesnt say shit about anything tho

doesnt talk about dram or cache

or cell level

[lusty orchid]

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crucial-t700-ssd-review

find a review like i just linked

simple as that

[spare sedge]

not really but THIS review is good

[spare sedge]

yeah but not every review is gonna have this^^^

thats what im looking for tho yeah

[lusty orchid]

yes really, buying based off a benchmark is poor planning

[lusty orchid]

every drive review does have this for comparison basis

[spare sedge]

so this one has dram

[lusty orchid]

and you'd be looking at several 1000's of reviews

[spare sedge]

is it possible to have dram + pseudo slc + tlc?

[lusty orchid]

yes but no

it's possible, but no it's not practical

in regards to optane https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-optane-ssd-dc-p5800x-review

a benchmark that was done of the t700

[lusty orchid]

but having all that speed on a drive and not being able to use more than a quarter of it really is a waste of it's performance

[spare sedge]

i put the part numbers for the ones with t700 in the part number

it turns out those were t700s too

the first two are t700 1tbs with heatsink vs without

[lusty orchid]

well yes obviously

[spare sedge]

and the one at the bottom is the t700 4tb

[lusty orchid]

2tb drives

middle 2 are 1tb drive each

[spare sedge]

thats what i was saying

its not obvious tho

[lusty orchid]

nope, you said first 2

first 2 t700's

[spare sedge]

yeah the first two part numbers

those two arent the part numbers

thats just the names

i already knew those ones

[lusty orchid]

yes they are, just labelled differently

[spare sedge]

so why are the 1tbs or 2tbs performing better than the 4tbs??

i checked if it was cauce of tlc vs qlc

and slc or mlc arent a thing

soo

and its not

they are all tlc

[lusty orchid]

it's not tlc vs qlc there, it's the number of people who have them/test them

[spare sedge]

i also dont understand how heatsink vs wo heatsink can make a difference

[spare sedge]

thats what im saying

they are all tlc

so why is the 4tb underperforming?

[lusty orchid]

nope, you took the wrong part of that

[spare sedge]

its underperforming by like 20,000 points

so like why

[lusty orchid]

having to highlight the issue

[spare sedge]

thats great but can you answer the question

[lusty orchid]

you never buy purely by benchmarks alone as it is

[lusty orchid]

and i did, you just didn't like the answer

[spare sedge]

whats the answer

i didnt see one

[lusty orchid]

what the fuck did i highlight?

[spare sedge]

thats your answer

lmao

[lusty orchid]

"it's the number of people who have them/test them"

[spare sedge]

so youre saying more people have tested the 2tb versions over the 4tb versions and thats why it performed better

[lusty orchid]

more reviews to be done, for higher sizes, as well as you never know what firmware they're tested with half the time

newer firmware can change the results at any time

[lusty orchid]

faster a drive is, the more heat it generates

no heatsink = no beuno

and gen5 drives need to be actively cooled not passively

[spare sedge]

yeah but the without heatsink versions are outperforming the heatsink versions

[lusty orchid]

operating range is like 10-60c for the nand in a ssd

though above 50c the nand with start to thermal throttle til it won't work at all

[spare sedge]

is the t700 enterprise?

[lusty orchid]

only way would be some modified direct cooling

[spare sedge]

cause its beating out the optane

[lusty orchid]

no, expensive consumer model

[spare sedge]

the reason i noticed the optane tho was because in a couple videos it had a slighty better random score

in fact the optane always had better randoms

it seems passmark thinks so too

[lusty orchid]

and for most of the optanes it requires pcie slots

[spare sedge]

like a physical pcie slot?

[lusty orchid]

yes

[spare sedge]

what is 4KQD1

[lusty orchid]

though you still look in the wrong areas for things

[lusty orchid]

that's the 4k randoms

[spare sedge]

the u.2 nvme pops up on here too it seems

does 4k have anything to do with resolution lol

[lusty orchid]

if we was talking displays yes, but we're talking storage instead

[spare sedge]

so what does 4k mean

or 1m

ik seq is sequential

and rnd is random

[spare sedge]

how did you do this?

do you own a t700

or an optane?

[lusty orchid]

i googled it to look for the results of benchmarks

and that was one from a t700

it is that easy to find no matter what you say

[spare sedge]

so p5800x is the overkill enterprise optane drive and 905p is the shittier consumer version of optane

[spare sedge]

did you just google t700 crystaldiskmark?

[lusty orchid]

basically, a weaker version, not shittier

[spare sedge]

yeah

still good

[lusty orchid]

nope, just crucial t700, and then looked on images

really took zero effort

[spare sedge]

i feel like i wouldnt trust a random google image

if t700 was the search

[lusty orchid]

normally no, but it alligns with reviews

if i was to search t700, i'd get an engine instead

[spare sedge]

also this doesnt show iops

[spare sedge]

do you understand what q8t1, q1t1, q32t1 or q1t1 mean?

okay so 4k is 4 kilobyte

[lusty orchid]

the naming for it no, but the sizes for it for the benchmark testing, somewhat

[lusty orchid]

as it's testing a specific block size for writing, then reading

[spare sedge]

okayy im understanding this now

[lusty orchid]

and iops just means in/outs per second

[lusty orchid]

which in this case is how much data goes in and out, or also known as the read and writes

[spare sedge]

yep i knew this one. i also know that it is random r/w related but idk why or if iops is better than classic random r/w

wow so this means

that seq use much larger block sizes

[lusty orchid]

yes because sequentials can be split and spread across the nand

like the spinning of a disk's direction

[spare sedge]

random reads vs random writes dont have a difference right? since they work together? so its really just random vs seq?

and rnd is better for day-to-day tasks?

seq is only good for video editing?

that means when it says seq1m and rnd4k thats just redundant. because seq is 1m and rnd is 4k.

so it really just is saying sequential vs random lmao

[lusty orchid]

yup for the better part

though with sequentials it's going 1,2,3,4,5,etc..

[spare sedge]

so if you do light video editing are the top performing seq drives worth it? or is it only worth it for intense 4k video editing or something

[lusty orchid]

with randoms it's more like 1,2,30,3,4, 25,5,6, etc....

[lusty orchid]

only worth it for the intense

[spare sedge]

anything else its good for besides video editing

ik large file copying

but anything else to put it into perspective

[lusty orchid]

light video editing is easily done on a gen 3 drive as long as it's got dram cache and a decent capacity

[lusty orchid]

3d rendering on a large scale

that can put a toll on multiple areas of the pc

[spare sedge]

okayy

cool

[lusty orchid]

coding would only put a toll on the cpu and ram

it's the compiling side of coding

[spare sedge]

and seq write is the big marketed number. but it also works with seq read so really its just seq r/w

is there any reason to go for something that has a higher seq read?

[lusty orchid]

that's what you see when they advertise it's speeds

[spare sedge]

okay cool

[lusty orchid]

nope, not really

[spare sedge]

and so seq read is just the number that goes with it that is less important but its tied to seq anyway

[lusty orchid]

like i've said earlier, in your case, and realistically, everything is easily done on gen 3 drives

there is no performance gains nor advantages for you

that's what my knowledge tells me, and my instincts too

[spare sedge]

heard

[lusty orchid]

it's also what others knowledge and instincts have been telling you

[rotund rain]

the difference between nice gen 3 and nice gen 4 is quite small at this point, and will most likely have a bigger impact in a few years, so only people on an extreme budget should consider the... like $50 it costs

[lusty orchid]

even less in price difference at the lower end for 1-2tb

[spare sedge]

this means that q1t1 is queue depth 1 generated by 1 thread

[lusty orchid]

it's when it's 4tb+ it matters more @rotund rain

[lusty orchid]

yes

basically 1 bit per thread or if it's increased, 1 byte per thread being read

where as for q8t1 it would be 8 bits per thread written, or if increased, 8 bytes per thread written

[spare sedge]

so that means the q1 seq and q1 rnd tests are like a perf / unit test whereas the larger queue depth tests are testing more of the drive potential

[lusty orchid]

it allows you to compare the speed differences on how fast it can write to the nand, how fast it can transfer the data per nand and then how fast it can read off it

[spare sedge]

so like q1 is like min and q8 or q32 is there max

[lusty orchid]

the randoms matter the most in the end tbh

[spare sedge]

yeah

so what else are randoms good for

[lusty orchid]

q32 would be the largest

[spare sedge]

yep

[lusty orchid]

well randomness described it well enough

[spare sedge]

link me to the comment

theres so much in here

[lusty orchid]

#1139391773253316608 message

[spare sedge]

wait why are the read speeds faster in this?

[lusty orchid]

on all ssd's the reads will be faster

[spare sedge]

i remember that one

still dont know iops whole role in random r/w tho

[spare sedge]

so is it the read speed that is advertised? not the write speed?

i had it backwards before

i was thinking upload download speed for some reason

this means 4kqd1 just means rnd4k q1t1

[lusty orchid]

both read and write are

though as usually write is within margin of error of the read speed on most, you can get away with using a single speed for the advertisement

remember advertisement = make shit up if needs be to get sales

[spare sedge]

so how is iops different from regular random r/w what more can the iops tell us that the regular r/w doesnt already?

[lusty orchid]

regular sequential basically just goes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, etc...

[orchid gate]

I wonder how random works, or why it happens in the first place

[lusty orchid]

randoms goes 1,2,25,3,4,40,59,6,7, etc....

[orchid gate]

leading hypothesis = several files for different applications of varying sizes are written to disk

[spare sedge]

oh its linear is what you mean

[orchid gate]

And smaller ones are prioritised

[spare sedge]

and randoms is all over the place. random

[orchid gate]

Even if it means switching app

[lusty orchid]

yup

[orchid gate]

Defo wrong

[spare sedge]

i think i figured out what iops is tho. its basically just the randoms r/w/s

[lusty orchid]

and for data tbh, writing it to a disk you want it to write sequentially more so preferably

[spare sedge]

or rnd r/w ps

[lusty orchid]

a corruption during sequential writes is easier to pick out than one during a random write

due to like i said, the way it writes the file

[spare sedge]

this means iops are the most important benchmark for an average understanding of the drive's random r/w performance irl

[lusty orchid]

where as random writes where it is literally random could write the end of the data before eveing doing the start of the data

[spare sedge]

this means the iops on here is NOT the q1t1. it is in the top right corner

[spare sedge]

yeah

[lusty orchid]

the q32 as it relates to larger data chucks at 4k

[spare sedge]

this means that the p5800x is the best drive on the market right now for most people.

it has the best random r/w of any drive on the market

obviously it is also overpriced

and random r/w dont change much

[lusty orchid]

for many people it would but if we just go for m.2 drives a sn990 would be the ultimate for most though a skhynix p41 can actually perform alot better

[spare sedge]

i meant top right where the MB/s is. itll be in there

[spare sedge]

its just overkill and overpriced yeah but it is the best.

[lusty orchid]

well the top right is sequential writes not randoms

top 2 on both sides are sequentials, bottom 2 on each side is randoms

[spare sedge]

no no i mean in here

this is where you find the iops results

this image just doesnt show it

but im sure i could find them on google images

[lusty orchid]

that changes it to how you wanted to read it as

[spare sedge]

i dont think you have to rerun the test

[lusty orchid]

bytes per second, megabytes per second or gigabytes per second

only rerun the test if you change these

[spare sedge]

how this guy goes sabrent makes sense to me now

https://discord.com/channels/375436620578684930/1146514029246955691

[lusty orchid]

his is due to his use case for what he does

does not mean the sabrents are a good choice for yourself

[spare sedge]

afaik optane also uses additional technology unique by intel to achieve these randoms

its too bad its been discontinued tbh

whats his use case lol

[lusty orchid]

he does show it in his thread but it's graphics designs

[spare sedge]

a hard drop after sabrent

[lusty orchid]

there's other stuff he does also if i remember correctly

my os drive

[spare sedge]

i recognize that drive

its the best price / perf drive

so i dont need to match the size of my drives or the speed unless i am planning to do raid

if i was going for price / perf i would probably go the vp4300

anything with a disk rating of 40,000+ drops off hard in terms of price / perf

with the t700 being a disk rating of 70,000

but most of that is seq

so t700 is certainly fast but its not optane fast

is just a figure head sort of. a market horse

optane technology is literally in its own tier

https://www.newegg.com/intel-800gb-optane-ssd-dc-p5800x/p/N82E16820167484?

how would you even plug a u.2 into your mb?

[rotund rain]

use an adapter

[spare sedge]

what adapter?

u.2 to m.2?

u.2 is literally just enterprise m.2

i think its wider

[rotund rain]

https://www.newegg.com/startech-com-m2e4sff8643/p/N82E16817998265

[spare sedge]

but yeah this definitely doesnt look like it would fit into a m.2 slot

does adapter hurt speed

[rotund rain]

it shouldn't

[lusty orchid]

here's a hint of a trick, when sending long links from seller sites, delete everything after the first '?'

[lusty orchid]

you would need a sas to m.2 adapter or a sas hba card

[spare sedge]

thank youu

[lusty orchid]

and again, not something you need to do, get or touch

[spare sedge]

i thought u.2 was just a modern sas

[lusty orchid]

it removes all the garbage like tracking and search history

[lusty orchid]

nope, it's what sas is

just another form

[spare sedge]

im p sure sas is scsi and for sata / ahci

[lusty orchid]

you can fit sata drives into a sas connector but not a sas drive into a sata connector

[spare sedge]

and that u.2 is nvme

[lusty orchid]

sas connector

sas

[spare sedge]

yeah

[lusty orchid]

there are also other forms of sas connectors depending on use

[lusty orchid]

straight to m.2 slot

avoid the sabrent q4

that's a qlc nand drive

[spare sedge]

yep i was about to guess that

idk what the diff is between the top one and the last 2 tho

besides price

[lusty orchid]

other than the bottom one coming with a heatsink, just price

it's 50/50 on whether a gen 4 nvme drive needs a heatsink

as some do and some don't

[spare sedge]

oh wait one is a 2230

how do these have a better random r/w than most optane drives???

[rotund rain]

as far as i know hard drives have garbage random reads, the ones with a large cache have okay random writes

[spare sedge]

how large does a boot drive need to be

[lusty orchid]

no more than 500gb

[spare sedge]

oh maybe the cache is huge then

[rotund rain]

this isn't 2018 anymore.

[spare sedge]

how about 58 gb

[lusty orchid]

to small

[spare sedge]

for just windows?

[lusty orchid]

widows requires 64gb

then there's drivers, main launchers

[lusty orchid]

500gb is all you ever need at most for a bo0t drive

[spare sedge]

what are 58gb optane drives even for

what does linux require lmao

[lusty orchid]

depends on the distro for that

[spare sedge]

whats a distor

distro

[lusty orchid]

distro* as distributed copy

[spare sedge]

oh

whats the minumum

[lusty orchid]

2gb

[spare sedge]

hmmmm

whats the max

[lusty orchid]

the sky

[spare sedge]

so i could run linux on an optane drive

58gb

[lusty orchid]

yes but it would be pointless when you can just get a decent m,2 or sata 2.5 ssd instead

literally pointless to get an optane drive

[spare sedge]

but it would be zippy

[lusty orchid]

their relevance is long gone since early 2016

[lusty orchid]

not over any normal gen 4 drive

[spare sedge]

still relevant imo. optane was discontinued because they couldnt sell the product at a reasonable price

[lusty orchid]

and linux doesn't even benefit from an optane drive let alone a gen 4 nvme

[lusty orchid]

well you'd be wrong in opinion there

[spare sedge]

still have the best speeds

[lusty orchid]

nope

[spare sedge]

and superior technology

[lusty orchid]

not in regards for linux itself when it runs as fast on a sata 2.5 ssd as it would on a gen3 or gen 4 nvme ssd

[spare sedge]

yeah probably

linux doesnt need much

but optane offers next to double the real world performance of a t700

[lusty orchid]

because of how linux is, it would run on a hdd with no real issues

[lusty orchid]

pointlessly not relevant in regards to windows let alone linux as os's

[spare sedge]

can we talk about the different options for types of drives

like boot drive

etc

so you can have a boot drive

[lusty orchid]

boot drive is simple, 500gb, nvme drive, gen 3

literally nothing more needed for that

[spare sedge]

no i mean what other types of drives can i have

[lusty orchid]

they're all storage drive, it's just what you designate their use for

[spare sedge]

thats what im asking

im asking about use case ideas

[lusty orchid]

1 drive for boot, the rest for storage of everything else

[spare sedge]

were you the one who had a bunch of them

[lusty orchid]

preferably one that's games only

[spare sedge]

so 1 boot drive got it

[lusty orchid]

not the only one but yes i put a picture of my setup

[spare sedge]

and now you are saying games and storage are separate too

so 1 games drive

what else

any other ideas

[lusty orchid]

one for general storage

[spare sedge]

anything else

[lusty orchid]

nothing else tbh

as they just become extras of the same things in regards to storage and games

[spare sedge]

unless you want to organize your storage more. like maybe 1 drive just for music and pictures and another for just video or something

[lusty orchid]

which is what i've done

i also tied the libraries option widows does to them

[spare sedge]

so you have 1 boot drive, 1 games drive, 1 storage drive and 1 videos drive

[spare sedge]

oh so you split music and pics too

[lusty orchid]

total physical amount of drives

[spare sedge]

whats the point of doing this and splitting your drives like this

[lusty orchid]

data security, if my os corrupts i don't lose everything

[spare sedge]

so the speed and cap for each drive is for that drive alone

[lusty orchid]

yup

[spare sedge]

so what does the speed and cap do for a boot drive

individually

does seq determine the start up speed

of windows

[lusty orchid]

boot drive being C:\

[spare sedge]

or does the rnd determine the start up speed

and is it just the start up speed?

or will you notice it in other places

and for a boot drive, is it just windows? you wouldnt put anything else on there?