audio-tech

[restive sigil]

i mean, unless you live in Montreal, would be impossible xD

[fast stratus]

Oh, I thought you were burnaby.

[restive sigil]

na

Montreal, Canada

[fast stratus]

I get the role colors in CAG mixed up.

[restive sigil]

xDDDD

[fast stratus]

I am secretly an alien with monochromatic vision.

Tbf comfort is a must for something worn for more then a few hours.

Bathys ftw.

[prisma field]

Behold. JBL bar 2.1.. pringles can edition

horrible

[fast stratus]

Don't take this to an airport.

[prisma field]

maybe

[primal fulcrum]

Don't Pringles sell those already?

[tired crown]

fiio ft1 or dt 270 pro

[livid ruin]

fiio

[haughty girder]

https://github.com/vrubleg/soundkeeper

Hi sorry for the late reply, this might be something you could look into

[prisma field]

i did it better

[prisma field]

the sound quality

horrible

[livid ruin]

🥫 🚮 🥫 🔈

[hardy jungle]

good power supply for a frankenstein setup?

got the amp n the speakers

(i forgot what an amp is i just came back to this)

[livid ruin]

amplifier

it takes a wave + frequency and amplifies it by magnitude

dac just converts digital input to analog output (the thing you can hear)

[warm silo]

If you play big bad john it will sound better

[prisma field]

go away 😭

[brisk topaz]

bring that on a plane

[supple sand]

yall might hate me for this

[restive sigil]

meh, its your money, your choice man. enjoy it

[fast coyote]

Bowers and Wilkins aren't bad at all.

[twilit spear]

any good reccomendations, i currently use a 10 year old pair of DT770 pro 80omh and a steelseries arctus pro wireless. My DT770's are getting a bit worse for wear and the same with my arctus. Most play MMO's or listen to lossless audio while working. I have a separate mic so not having a mic on the headset is fine. budget wise up to about £600

[lean grove]

Do you like your 770s?

[twilit spear]

Yea, they are great. the wire is a bit of a pain but they have been very nice to wear.

[lean grove]

There's a lot of options in that price bracket. Dt 1990 should be a nice upgrade. It's gonna have smoother bass and mids. Removable cable.

I would personally get a hd550 or an hd650. Or a meze 105.

But I'm also not a huge fan of Beyer. If you like them I don't see any reason to not get the 1990s

[restive sigil]

im a beyer fan, have the 1990 pros and 700 Pro X's amongst other headphones. is there anything in particular you're looking for "sound tuning wise" ?

[lone flame]

open back or closed?

[twilit spear]

ive never had a pair of open back headphones so i dont know really

[twilit spear]

no not really. Ideally i want to be able to change the tuning for games and for music if possible. So like more bass etc for games.

[restive sigil]

ah ok, so you want EQ ability. i mean thats sorta the DACs job, not really the headphones job. unless you mean you want something that scales very well with EQ'ing. you could look into a Planar headphone.

[twilit spear]

I mean i dont mind getting a DAC, my motherboard does have an inbuilt DAC but its not super powerful

[restive sigil]

MB dacs are garbage

[twilit spear]

ah fair

[restive sigil]

you need a stand alone dac, or a dac built into a dac/amp unit external to your MB

[haughty girder]

Motherboard is pretty bad, MacBook is good

[restive sigil]

9.9/10 MB dacs are an after thought from the manufacturers to save money.

[haughty girder]

No

The dac itself is fine

[restive sigil]

bruh, and you saying apple onboard dac is good?

i litterally can't take anything you say seriously now xD

[haughty girder]

The issue is, it's impossible to get the level of isolation and shielding you can get from even an external dongle

When you're built on a power plane that handles tens or hundreds of watts

[haughty girder]

Apple's are really good, actually.

They run variants of Cirrus CS42 and CS46 chips for their MacBook and dongles

the only issue is the Cirrus hump which is unfortunately an inherent property of Cirrus dacs, though barely audible and only if you know what to listen for.

[lean grove]

You can do that with some headphones by changing the pads, but it's annoying. A DAC with a bass boost or different EQ profiles would be a lot more convenient.

[restive sigil]

ifi? get that XBASS XDDDD

xBass is so bad its hilarious

[lean grove]

Or a schiit gunnr

[haughty girder]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-macbook-air-2024-headphone-output.63218/

:p

[restive sigil]

uses ESS, yeah could be good

depends how Schiit tuned it

i mean they have £600 to play with

thats ALOT

could even shop for Chord

[twilit spear]

I mean if it ends up being 200 all in then great. £600 is the celling though 😂

[lean grove]

He's got £600 total.
Chord will eat up 90% of that budget and he'll have to get some ksc75's

Recommending someone blow their entire budget on a DAC when they need headphones is just idiotic

[restive sigil]

ah thats fair, i was thinking they could just get a new dac and continue to use their headphones that they have. then later in future get others but sure £600 total, ya... i guess a really small portable dac would be better

Cayin RU6 / RU7 could work

then drop the rest on headphones

since its portable and USB-C it works on mobile, pc, gaming consoles

also does LO

[lean grove]

Nah. He's not gonna blow $300 on a dongle

This is just plain bad advice to tell someone to spend most of their headphone budget on a DAC.

[twilit spear]

i see that https://www.kronosav.com/products/meze-105-silva-headphones comes with a DAC

is it any good?

[lean grove]

Which DAC?

[twilit spear]

"Alongside it, a custom 3.5 mm to USB-C adapter with an integrated DAC/AMP expands usability with mobile devices, while maintaining high-resolution playback on the go."

[lean grove]

Probably the standard meze one

Yes it's good.

Though it's $100 extra compared to the 105 aer

And they're pretty much the same thing

At least similar enough that I don't think you'd be missing out on much going for the aer

[twilit spear]

ah ok cool

yea they are £369 on amazon atm

[lean grove]

The aer doesn't look like it comes with a DAC though

[twilit spear]

yea just noticed that

is it a pipedream to use the price diffirnece to get a DAC as well?

[lean grove]

Not a pipe dream. Tsuku was giving bad advice and telling you to drop a million dollars on something that doesn't need to cost more than $100

Fosi ds1 is what I use as a small DAC.

Fiio k11 would be a very good option if you want something more robust.

Or if you wanna get something cheap and good, moondrop dawn pro or jcally ap6

If you wanna mess the parametric EQ profiles and whatnot, Crinear protocol does that.
If you're a tinkerer and tech savvy, this is a really nice option.

[twilit spear]

cool, has give me a fair bit to look at. Thanks everyone!

[supple sand]

Ikr

[zenith pawn]

hot take: motherboard is fine for high impedance outputs

[haughty girder]

they built a reputation on good speakers, which did not translate into their performance in headpahones.

In fact, what the balls

They have more bass than the infamously bloated Sony WHXM5 LMAOOO

That dip in the lower bass is gonna cause the same issues as the DT770 - somehow bloated and hollow at the same time

Like a nice Bluetooth speaker in a bathtub

[jovial prism]

Heyo
I’ve been on the market for the pair of noise cancelling headphones. Is there anything out there that would shut everything round me up? And I mean like entirely?

[lean grove]

Not entirely. Etymotics make some very well isolating iems. But as far as headphones go, there's always gonna be something that'll leak through. Usually voices.

Sony, Bose, and apple afaik have the best ANC which is unfortunate because they're also the most expensive

[verbal fog]

rahh its crazy when you get really nice speakers and then finally adjust to just hearing the music instead of the speakers tone and then you get to hear everything

[main spoke]

are there any nothing wireless earbuds with better/similar quality to airpods gen 4? switching to a pixel soon and ive heard the android phone apple airbuds experience isnt great

[twilit spear]

Slight update i ended up going with the Fiio k11 R2R and the Meze 105 AER

cant wait for them to arrive

[cobalt plinth]

I wonder if the new Edifier m90 are worth it for computer speakers.

[lean grove]

👍 keep in mind that the 105's are gonna be a bit different than what you're used to from the 770s. So take the time to give them some intense listening sessions over a few days and don't even look at the 770s while you're doing it.

[twilit spear]

sound advice, i did see that the sound was going to be different

i saw people using Eqwualizer APo + Peace, is it dencent for tinkering?

[lean grove]

As far as tuning a headphone goes, it's as good for tinkering as it gets.

I think it's cumbersome and prefer to use something with a proper app that doesn't go through windows.

But I'm also not that tech savvy

[twilit spear]

was just thinking diffirent eq for music and certian games

[spare summit]

Anny sugestions for premium/midrange earbuds for small ears? I want good quality, good battery life and good sound. Currently looking at
Jlab elite sport 3
Powerbeats pro 2
Bose quietcomfort ultra 2

I use earbuds daily at work, but especialy need anc for travel

[restive sigil]

none of thoes offer good quality or sound, but battery life possibly lol

in my experience, you can't get good sound quality from "workout earbuds"

just doesnt exist

you have to make compromises

[spare summit]

Jlab elite sport pro has hybrid dual drivers (10mm dynamic + Knowles balanced armature)
Beats have retuned their speakers to be less bassy so they should be deacent now.
And bose is in general recognized for having good audio, and has the best anc on the market

The jlab one is the "mid range" option
Both the beats and the bose are 300$+

[restive sigil]

bose, best anc on the market? xD

i dont think you've tried nothing, focal, apple or sony

they shit all over bose dude

even samsungs crap "tuned by akg" is better

i suggest going to stores and trying them if you can

as for beats, i havenet really tried beats anything in the last few years. i did hear apple aquired them and did some changes

so who knows maybe beats is better now? no idea

if you are going to be using these in the gym, you want something that wont fall out easily and can resist water/sweat

usually to make something "water proof/sweat proof" you need to have the product sealed to a certain extent to get that X rating

which, will compremise audio quality

https://ca-en.nothing.tech/products/ear-open?Colour=White

ive heard from some ppl that hese are solid for "working out"

they stay on more easily than normal earbuds

affordable also, 219$ CAD

[tired crown]

bro

I just got fiio ft1

These sound so ass

My $100 old logi headset sounds better

Everything is so buried in the bass

[lean grove]

How long have you been listening to them

[haughty girder]

Which one?

Also, show picture of the FT1, and the source it's plugged into

FT1 does not have a flat impedance curve, and the bass reaches upwards of 42ohms whereas the pinna region (except for 2k) goes below 38. If your source output impedance is above 5 ohms (which is rather common, unfortunately), you're gonna be getting a more bass than treble.

[tired crown]

A couple hours

[tired crown]

I think it’s like a g535 or smth like that

[tired crown]

I already packaged it back up to return but I was using the 1/4th adapter and plugging into a minifuse 1 interface

[haughty girder]

Mini fuse 1 has a 5 ohm output

If I remember correctly, that is.

Also something's not adding up

The biggest difference between their frequency responses is the bass extension - FT1 extends all the way down to 20hz

[tired crown]

idk to me vocals on the ft1 just sound buried under bass

[zenith pawn]

I mean it certainly looks like it would be that way based on the freq response chart above

[tired crown]

idk how to read that lol

[zenith pawn]

the mid bass and high bass regions have a much higher magnitude, and that's the area often associated with bloated bass

[haughty girder]

Hm, in that case I wonder if you'd enjoy open backs or like, ksc75

[tired crown]

I think i would enjoy the sound of open backs more but unfortunatly some isolation is needed

[lone flame]

Tbh. 4 Ohm difference is not huge. There are some that has from min to max impedance over 200 Ohm difference. There it's really audible

[hollow vault]

So I need help - how do I connect the sennheiser 650s that was in the LTT end of year sale to my FW13 laptop successfully

I kinda just bought it without any thought since it was in the backpack bundle - not realizing it had this 6.5mm connector thingy

tried just buying a 6.5mm to 3.5mm adapter to connect via the headphone jack and that failed miserably

[buoyant vale]

How did that fail?

[haughty girder]

That's the thing - FT1 is one of the few closed backs that don't have bloated bass

It's a lot of bass, it's a very fun headphone

But the bass quality is some of my favorite in any headphone.

And to my ears anyways, it doesn't overpower the rest of the frequency response

but in this case, the G535 has much less bass extension which that rat enjoys

[hollow vault]

I have yet to get it to play sound

[hollow vault]

Edit: 3.5mm jack was loose on the FW laptop.

[prisma field]

yes

[spare summit]

Open ear headphones generaly have ass anc.
Sony only has good anc due to foam tips, but jbl has that as well, but theirs are softer, sot heyre mor comferrable.
I dont tkae psrt int he Apple ecosystem so airpids and bests are tbh a waste.
So i am probebly going for the bosse

[spare summit]

I also curently have a 8 year old pair of jabra 85t, im quite happy with them, i just want a better fit and battery life

[thin void]

classic

[zenith pawn]

how does a 3.5mm jack get loose

Is that a common thing

[crimson warren]

Any of y'all got recommendations for a headphone ~150-200 CAD? Brand new so I don't have a DAC, and I'm kinda audiophile curious.

[buoyant vale]

I guess by FW he means framework which are modular so makes this scenario much more likely

[elder thistle]

that is entirely possible

ignore these fr charts

the ft1 may also just suck regardless

[tired crown]

Only thing it has going for it is good bass

At the cost of literally everything else

[elder thistle]

the bass is tight for me, but not that textured and definitely not dynamic

the latter is hard to achieve though

I like the bass better on my modded $19 headphones

[soft rune]

Do you guys prefer soundbars or dedicated speaker setup for something like TV living room space

[thin void]

speakers every time

[soft rune]

which ones do u recommend for a medium sized living room

[thin void]

all depends on budget

you could spend $500 or $50,000

anywhere in between

or less

just depends on the goal

[soft rune]

$500 for dedicated?

[thin void]

Prob a pair of JBL306p mk2 on stands with some sort of ARC preamp like an HDMI-ARC-X, then prob RCA to 6.3mm cables

the 306p mk2 are $249-ish each normally but you can find them for less

theres used ones all over ebay and at guitar center for like half the price

just make sure its the 306 not the 305

[lone flame]

also a pretty cheap tool to improve sound (if used on a system with Parametic EQ (like PC))
a measuring mic for speakers

UMIK-1 as example

measuring speakers is 1. Fun 😄 and 2. it will improve the sound at your listening position 😄

[spare summit]

I got a LG dolby 5.1 surround sound setup from 2001 for 20$ second hand. Its still great

[soft rune]

From 2001 seems pre old

[spare summit]

It works great. It was originaly priced at 2000$

Sibwoofer still shakes my whole appartment, and sometimes background noice in yutube videos confuse me as to why my neighbours suddenly started banging around

But its just the suround sound doing its job

Only issue is you need a DAC

[spare summit]

Whats the usecase?

[spare summit]

Headphones are still budget/midrange at 200$ hifi dosent realy start before 400$+

beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro 250 Ohm are renowned as cheap studio headsets, fiio ft1 can be found on sale.
Sennheiser HD 560S, sennheiser is a safe bet.
Other then that the best advice is to go and try stuff in person

[crimson warren]

I'm a bit of a gamer casually, but mostly video streaming and voice calling (I have a separate microphone).

Funny you should mention them, I just grabbed the Sennheiser HD 560s from Staples of all places at 149.99 Canadian

Regular 279.99 apparently, so a steal

[crimson warren]

And they sound FANTASTIC

[spare summit]

Hifi audio is usualy sterio, and not suround, so i wouldent use them for gaming

The 560 only have 2 angled drivers, so theyre more for music then anything

[zenith pawn]

Well I don't believe a whole lot of games support surround audio so if anything, I'd say HiFi audio is more likely surround than gaming

[spare summit]

Id disagree, for games where adiobased directional Ques matter, i would want multiple drivers for that full spatial awareness

Same as id prefere to have 2 beefier drivers for fuller sound

[zenith pawn]

not really how it works, with games it's basically just stereo tricks

when you say surround i believe usually that means having multiple physical speakers at different real locations, that's why i got confued

if you're talking about gaming headphones that advertise having multiple drivers in different angles, for all headphones i'm aware of it's just a lie/scam

[spare summit]

You do have true 7,1 like the asus STRIX 7.1

But yes majority is virtual. But not every headset is set up for virtual surround

The senheiser 560s is famous for having shit virtual suround

[lean grove]

Doesn't work like that, unfortunately

Putting multiple drivers in a headphone doesn't do anything more than just two

Those headphones that include lots of drivers are just gimmicks and, at best, do nothing.

[lean grove]

Virtual surround is also a software thing. Not a hardware thing.

[thin void]

the DT990 I''ll fight to my dying breath

I personally believe the DT990 is part of the reason theres SO many bad mixes out there

[thin void]

oh yeah, not to gang up but multiple drivers has no effect on your perception of directional cues. Its down to frequency response and how it interacts with your personal head related transfer function. You would get best results likely from something with a "close to population average" transfer function sloped, and a slight increase from 100-300hz (like 2-3db at most assuming the headphone is dead-on)

Something like a PC38X out of the box is dead-on for this

and I would recommend that strongly, prob used on ebay, with zero software (because that'll likely just mess it up). No virtual surround etc. No spatial audio.

We did a lot of blind tests at the old lab with people playing FPS games blindfolded trying to locate and shoot the source of a sound cue and PC38X (plus other similar measuring devices) performed shockingly well

[zenith pawn]

At least they didn't lie about having multiple drivers I guess

Ignoring whether it actually works

[spare summit]

Im personaly Running a HyperX Cloud III Wireless just beacuse i got a insane discount and had a giftcard lying around. And im pretty happy with it

I always viewed hyper x as a discount brand, and ident exepct much, so im plessantly supprised

[spare summit]

Have you done tests on earbuds as well? Bose cq ultra gen 2, yay or nay? I dont use Apple and only have 1 samsung product

[thin void]

yeah I have one of those around, with EQ its a pretty decent headset

[thin void]

most earbuds really succ honestly. The bose QC ultra gen 2 are a roller coaster. Airpods pro 2 are fantastic on either ios or android imo. APP3 suck in terms of sound qyality. Moondrop Space Travel 2 are excellent on a budget.

but for gaming the latency of anything bluetooth will be brutal

[spare summit]

theyl be used for tuning out people at work, music and plane rides

i heard they have good sound, and great anc, and descent battery. witch is why im going for them

i curently have a old pair of jabra elite 85t, so the weight is similar, but the bose has a extra point of contact with the "wing" and i hate how most buds fallout of my ear, so i definetly need a winged pair

[lean grove]

Jabra 😒

My arch nemesis works there

[restive sigil]

@thin void i know you and GS did a review for the GT. there was some discussion on the GT vs the 2, and how i think you both prefered the GT over the 2. do you find that these graphs are kinda ccurate ? (im not too familiar with graphs, but it looks to me as an amature to graph readings. that the GT is smoother and has better coverage ?)

[thin void]

the hard part here is the graphs are RAW, dont show or account for the response of the ear, and I dont see the named measurement fixture

but I do strongly prefer the GT and it measures notably more linear

[lean grove]

Get the d1

[restive sigil]

ah ok, hopefully i can try it later this month at the MAF (Montreal Audio Fest) if not, may be a blind buy xDD and i'll flip a coin

[spare summit]

Ive had 3 pause of jabras, last pair lasted me 5 years. I think yhe sound is good, but the anc and battery could be better

[spare summit]

What im wondering is how much drive size acctualy matters

[hearty merlin]

Bought this a few days ago thought i could show it off here

[restive sigil]

what mic is that ?

[hearty merlin]

Aston mics element

Got a massive deal on it, will test it out in a day or two

[restive sigil]

interesting

never heard of this brand, i'll check it out

[hearty merlin]

Very few popular creators use this brand as far as i know, though from what i see it's all quite decent

Will report back on my findings, ill use this mic for vocals, guitar and other stuff

[muted imp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUccRBb9pvA

Hmmm...

I kinda felt it was that way.

[restive sigil]

i dont think so

i would say the only people "slowly going back into CDs" are either Audiophiles or Tech nerds who are all "anti-consumerisim" and wanna be hipsters again by saying they use cd's because the hipsters using vinyl are either getting very old and passing away, or just cant be bothered anymore.

digital music on streaming services still makes up a massive amount of the audio market

if you really wanna "own your music" buy the files online, put them on an external SSD and you gucci

Qobuz offers non-DRM music

(unlike apple, tidal or spotify)

Band camp i think also offers non-DRM

and its also naïve to think CD's will last forever, they wont. eventually they get de-mag'd

i have a star wars DVD i bought in early 2010's and its already having degredation from de-mag due to just time

if you can get music on a Bluray disc, i think it would be better/last longer

[restive sigil]

https://youtu.be/YARPbtUcW2s

[zenith pawn]

CDs aren't magnetic, and AFAIK if stored in good conditions they basically just survive

It's just a layer of metal behind some clear plastic

[restive sigil]

i mean

you get chemical breakdown

UV exposure

Heat / humidity

get corrosion within the disc on the metal reflective layer

where the info is stored

(im not counting scratches or cracks cause.... could be user error lol)

[zenith pawn]

you can buff those out usually

[restive sigil]

yeah, or fill it with UV resin

but that could ruin the reflective layer inside

[zenith pawn]

Huh does that actually work

I haven't heard of that before

[restive sigil]

i mean, i dont see why not

so long as you're careful but again, with UV.... could fuck up the disc part itself (metal)

[civic beacon]

Right, but that's not magnetic. https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/computer-organization-architecture/difference-between-magnetic-disk-and-optical-disk/

[zenith pawn]

because light refracts when it goes across a barrier between two mediums

so it wouldn't be an even flat layer

[restive sigil]

Hmm yeah i guess so, i guess enough to fill a crack, not cake over it. I guess if a cd is cracked its ova

[zenith pawn]

I mean my intuition thinks filling a crack would be worse than not because refraction

But idk really

[quiet ice]

2012 buick lacrosse harman kardon stereo lmao

[supple sand]

Finally got em

[haughty girder]

do you like them?

they look pretty alright, actually.

[winged surge]

cheap headphones with iems like audio quality with nosie cancellation and stuff i can work with both wired and wireless

any recommendation?

[icy salmon]

so you want the ideal headphones

[winged surge]

abt to get roasted

[icy salmon]

for cheap?

[winged surge]

yeah

[icy salmon]

[winged surge]

any recommendatiON?? my current earphones are some cheap local wired tws

[icy salmon]

oh wait didnt realize wireless was optional

iems already seal pretty well so shouldnt have to worry about noise canceling

kz zsn pro x are like 23$ on amazon and have pretty good sound quality for the price

idk what the price is in india sorry

[warm scarab]

please dont recommend kz in 2026

[zenith pawn]

Truthear gate

7hz zero:2

[haughty girder]

how cheap

I'd argue Fiio EH13 are pretty cheap

[left badger]

im looking for some headphones, my budget is around 30 usd, can anyone help me

[warm scarab]

https://giphy.com/gifs/amarillocollege-work-job-application-T39By0uZSaAjSYaF9B

here you go buddy

[left badger]

its a lot of money in my country 😭

[buoyant vale]

Get some KSC75

[tawdry gale]

moondrop old fashioned

[left badger]

they seem nice, but will i also be able to use them for running, pls also suggest me some IEMs

[tawdry gale]

do u sweat

or run in the rain

[left badger]

yes

[left badger]

sometimes

[tawdry gale]

I would recommend raising ur budget

ipx rated stuff is more expensive

[left badger]

im poor, and my dad is giving me. he reduced my budget to 25usd 😭

[tawdry gale]

just run without music

👍

[left badger]

no can do. running without music is torture

[tawdry gale]

iems with no ipx ratings die to water and moisture extremely quickly

do u want to waste that 25 usd

[left badger]

no

ill try and find some. if not i wont go in the rain

[tawdry gale]

I would recommend moondrop space travel 2, if u dont sweat and dont run in the rain

[left badger]

lil too expensive. but thanks for the help truck-kun

[tawdry gale]

Truthear Gate then

just dont run with it

[left badger]

main reason i want headphones is cause i want to run. i have game audio on speakers

[tawdry gale]

the problem is that water and headphones dont go well together

[left badger]

fr

[tawdry gale]

unless it has an ipx rating

good tws iems with that is beyond ur budget

[left badger]

wired is also fine

[tawdry gale]

there are no good wired iems with ipx rating

[left badger]

hmm

im seaching. one of my friends is also helping me

[tawdry gale]

well ofc u could just get literally anything with ipx rating

[left badger]

ya

[tawdry gale]

but I wouldnt recommend it

[left badger]

the Sounce ZSN Pro seem nice, ipx7

[tawdry gale]

it'll prob sound like shit

but it'll survive

in water

[left badger]

doesnt matter that much to me. i used to use 5 usd tws earphones, i think ill be fine

[buoyant vale]

That sounds suspiciously like KZ

[tawdry gale]

kz tws is more expensive than that

[buoyant vale]

it sounds like their cheap wired one

[tawdry gale]

tws = wireless

[buoyant vale]

and sounce don't seem to be an iem company

[tawdry gale]

oh u were talking about that

[buoyant vale]

yes

[tawdry gale]

might be just someone copying kz's naming

[buoyant vale]

or rebranding

[tawdry gale]

cuz kz's tws arent ipx rated

[buoyant vale]

i don't know I can't find it on their site

[tawdry gale]

https://kz-audio.com/kz-sora.html

[buoyant vale]

I am talking about the "Sounce ZSN Pro"

I thought we had established that

[left badger]

i also checked KZ wired IEMs

[severe idol]

So my DVD player keeps crashing, Is there a replacement that has a DAC in side it? That’s not panasonic or sony

[severe idol]

Those look amazing

[tawdry gale]

they're shit

[severe idol]

@tawdry gale good to know

I’m looking for a HiFi DVD player

[solid dirge]

Man I love KZs even if its just for looks

[solid dirge]

A what

Isnt that Bluray

[severe idol]

BlueRay player that has a HiFi sound board

I collect old movies too lol

[solid dirge]

Why would your DVD player have that? Unless there's like a 3.5mm jack on the drive itself.. Its just supposed to read back your data bit for bit

If you were looking for a SCAD player specifically I'd understand a little more I think

[severe idol]

look at this Panasonic DB9000

yeah the Stario version, our fire tv sounds like poop

[solid dirge]

Oh you mean like a player player.. Damn I was thinking of just the drive reader itself. Thats a lot to be contending with a firetv lol. What stops you from using a PS3 like the "old" days? Other than the fact you may not have one and or might want 5.1 or 7.1.. Or the many other reasons I suppose.. I'm just gonna drop this convo, not really within my field of knowledge, sorry

[severe idol]

I think I found it; https://www.whathifi.com/tv-home-cinema/magnetars-new-mkii-series-universal-players-promise-a-wealth-of-upgrades-for-blu-ray-and-sacd-fans

I built a 7.1 sound system from old speakers before Linus’s video on it

[supple sand]

one day review on the Px7 S2 and all I can is

after adjusting the treble a lil bit and resetting the audio settings on my s26u

these sound heavenly on most cases

but for more techno and fast modern songs i think they lack the fun side that my skullcandys had but like both headphones have different uses

ANC aint really that good but one good thing is the vacuum feeling is lit non existant at least for me

and the pass through is actually like soo good

i would like if you could adjust the pass through volume level though

my final verdict as a normal every day user that dk much about audio stuff

these are comfy and I bought em basically just open box for 135 so its a damn good deal

[hearty merlin]

The mic is very good, love vocals on it

[full cape]

Hey guys. i need quick help. i just listened to some music. i got the Logitech Z623. turned up the bass a bit and now it smells kinda,, electrically? like somethings burning or smoring. ive never had the bass and volume past 50 percent, could it be that it just needs to "burn in"?

also, this is already a replacement set of these speakers. meaning ive replaced them once before, but amazon support told me its normal. it just doesnt smell normal to me

[chrome imp]

lol that's not normal

shits broken

[full cape]

yeah thats what im thinking

damn, so time to send em back ...

[chrome imp]

yup

[full cape]

i mean, it sounds absolutely normal, bass works fine, volume too. its only if i gove to around 60 to 80% of volume and bass full blast. the Z623 is supposed to be 400w.

[chrome imp]

an electrical device smelling like smoke is just never a good sign, i would just return/exchange it

[full cape]

its not smoking tho

[chrome imp]

yeah but something needed to burn to smell like smoke

[full cape]

alright thanks

[chrome imp]

also, burn in is just a myth

[full cape]

so it should just work at the specified specs just fine from the start.

thanks

[chrome imp]

👍

[lone flame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVW53wmo-04
@sleek lily
@elder thistle
Important video!

[elder thistle]

already saw, already discussed

[zenith pawn]

what are they?

[lone flame]

Harman AutoEQ in Squig Link

so the Audo EQ with Rig measurements (Gras45c or others)

that this sounded NOthing like the target shown there on their heads

like what?

it is easy

they have their HRTF, and the headphone Measurement via MIRE

all you need to make a headphone sound good on your head

and if compared to a rig

sound from all directions are the same at the point where you capture it

[zenith pawn]

negative divergence ahh conditions

[lone flame]

already answered

i don't have a own definition of something that is already defined

if there is a official defined term, im talking about that unless idk there was a official definition lol

you mean this here right?

that they got their HRTF measured and made a DF HRTF Target out of it

you can just start explaining

but you can calculate your DF HRTF out of you HRTF

if it's correct

you can also measure it in a echo/reverb chamber

im stupid in math lol
just saying you can calculate it

but what do you mean with "But a headphone does not bypass the whole HRTF. It still preserves a large amount of the ear geometry, and likely some other anatomical effects as well." part...

i think they did it correctly anyways

the first video they told how they do it and what they did

idkc why the compensation is a problem

compensation is "making a RAW Target like 5128 DF visually flat"

so it looks flat. but the truth is it's 5128 DF

what is compensation for you?

just that i know what you mean by compensation

so like if i calculate a 5128 DF "down" to a Gras45c DF

to be able to "compare" both

good now i know what you mean by it

in their situation it is possible to compare

ask him. he is one of them that did it

[white gate]

But that's literally the point, that Auto-EQ doesn't get the result people think it does on their head, and to get the 'real' harman/diffuse-field/whatever-target you would HAVE to do what we did else you don't know how it's actually behaving on your head

I'm not sure what you're meaning by this

[lone flame]

FR looks close to harman on Rig.
FR literally on peoples head is Audivina

[white gate]

It's not that "we don't have to understand them", we DO want to understand them, which is exactly why we are doing this.

But you don't have to understand them if you are simply trying to get one headphone to mimic the in-situ behaviour of another on your head

[lone flame]

(idk how i mixed up susvara and audivina)

[white gate]

How?

[lone flame]

btw.
i used tone gens 2 years ago (still do it) to make a headphone "sound linear" to me.
You guys said if i understood that correctly that this was surprisingly the case when you AutoEQd the headphones to your guys HRTF

or did i misunderstood something?

[white gate]

That's correct.

Going into this we werent sure if a headphone tuned completely and precisely to our own DF-HRTF would sound "flat" or if pure tones would still produce some audible peaks/dips as we don't have a reference for pure tones in the real world so we weren't sure.
But thankfully, as it turns out yes, correcting a headphone precisely to your HRTF does then make a tone sweep sound perceptually flat. Which then in turn means you can use a tone generator to confidently identify where peaks/dips exist on a headphone on your head and correct them

[lone flame]

but it is FR.
Like everyone said there.
They made an HD600 sound "identical" to an HD800s

the only "outside" thing is how it feels on your head

it sounds the same. but clamp, earpads, weight etc is different

[white gate]

I don't think anything I say can convince you that there isn't magic outside of frequency response so I don't think there's much benefit to doing this discussion again

If you come to a future canjam we may be able to set up the demo for you if you want to hear it for yourself

[lone flame]

Thank god i started doing it 2 years ago because i found out it sounds really good.
And i was able to EQ match Headphones with like (how i preceived it) 90+ % accuracy

bass and mids are "easy" to EQ match imo.
But doing treble is where the crisis start

you measure HD600 on your head.
you measure HD800s on your head.
You have your HRTF and DF HRTF.
You use HD800s as Target.
You Auto EQ HD600 to HD800s Target

[white gate]

Yeah bass and mids you can mostly just go based on rig data tbh as long as you're getting a decent seal/not wearing glasses or something.

It's above 1-2khz where stuff starts to vary a lot

(Though this is assuming the headphone model doesn't have substantial unit variation)

[lone flame]

i have a weird peak at 2.5khz with my HD800s

it looks really goofy

[white gate]

For the EQing one headphone to match another you don't even need your HRTF since you're just applying the difference between headphone A and headphone B to headphone A as an EQ/convolution

[lone flame]

oh right

you just need your Headphone measurement on your head

you jsut need your HRTF / DF HRTF to use it as target for the headphone itself 😛

stoopid me

[white gate]

(Fun fact: the convolution IS therefore also adjusting phase, it just literally doesn't matter since they're minimum phase anyway so the phase adjustment is identical regardless of whether you do it with bog standard EQ, a minimum phase convolution, or a convolution adjusting phase and fr independently based on the measurements)

[white gate]

Yeah you need your HRTF if you want to either measure headphones on your head (since you need to show what the headphone is doing, not what the headphones AND your head are doing), or if you want to EQ headphones to match your HRTF

The eq'ing one headphone to match another thing was mostly cause it's something we'd always wanted to try. But with personalised correction you can make a headphone sound WAYYYY better than any headphone sounds out of the box

There's a reason there weren't any 9s/10s on our ranking 😅

It's hard to rank any headphone that high once you've heard how good a headphone COULD sound

[lone flame]

yeah. i can imagine how insanely weird it feels that 2 headphones that feel completly different on head sound exactly the same

[lone flame]

im so jealous about what you guys did

is it possible for NPC's like me to get their HRTF measured?

without spending a liver?

[white gate]

Honestly I'm incredibly thankful I had the opportunity to do it. As an audio nerd it's the coolest thing I've gotten the chance to do and I'm super excited for what we're going to be able to do with the data, as well as selfishly the fact that I've never had headphones sound this good 😅

[lone flame]

im so happy about those 2 videos.
They proved my point in "EQing to what i hear as flat" thing

[lone flame]

and the best is. You can make nearly every headphone sound this good

[white gate]

You can volunteer to be part of the sonicom database and get your HRTF measured in the same place, but you won't get to keep the mics (and you really do need to use the same mics for the HRTF measurement as you'll be using for future headphone testing) and I'm not sure what amount of data they then give you

[lone flame]

how expensive are those in ear mics?

but hey.
You can finally say "I Found the holy Grail in Headphone Audio"

because there will be (very unlikely) any other headphone that will sound as good or better than whatever you EQ 😄

[white gate]

The mics themselves aren't crazy expensive, it's more the effort involved with making them. The housing in particular konstantin designed to be as acoustically invisible as possible whilst ensuring very consistent depth and positioning.
We did testing on stuff like the 5128 to see what the eardrum reference point measurements were like with and without the mics in place and there was <0.5dB difference above iirc 7khz and effectively nothing below that

[lone flame]

so you don't need to measure close to your ear drum with these mics?

[white gate]

And then we've also gotten extremely consistent results just testing the same headphone after taking mics out and putting back in again etc.
Actually now when I'm measuring stuff I quickly check HD600 to see if it's still the same as the previous times I measured it just to validate

[white gate]

No. Mics at the eardrum mean you get the canal resonances, BUT....it's also then almost impossible to get consistent depth and positioning in any sort of practical manner so it screws up other aspects far more.

Plus the canal resonances aren't really complex, so they can easily be accounted for after if desired (though tbh we seem to be getting most of them anyway)

[lone flame]

ahh so its a mic that you can push it on to a specific point (probably it will resist to go deeper) and everytime you reseat it it goes pretty consisten to the same insertion depth right?

[white gate]

yep!#

[lone flame]

ahh yeah thats important

men. i love how audio is doing in the past years

Red: 5128 DF Tilt
Green: HD800s (5128 by listener)
Blue: my EQ

Do you know why i habe a peak at ~2.5K?

like does it make any sense? because idk why i have a peak there

(have to work more on the treble, not perfect yet)
But i found out that the 2.5K area with the HD800s is very forward

@white gate

[white gate]

We are not doing anything HRTF related in the headphone to headphone eq

[lone flame]

your guys video gave me so much motivation to go deep grind into tone gen EQ
already making progress lmao.
But i think something is very uncommon with my earcanal or Pinna

or my HD800s unit variation is not nice

[zenith pawn]

Is "measure" like as in having a mic in your ear that measures with your ear geometry? Because technically then I think it would be PRTF instead of HRTF since the head isn't in the equation. But if that's not it then I am very sorry I just havent had a chance to watch the video yet

[lone flame]

yeah

if you have a good in ear mic.
You can measure a headphone on your head and EQ match it to another (if you measured both on your head)

so.
Go to an headphone store.
listen to HE1 or Susvara
use a HD600 or something cheaper lol
and measure all of them.

Now you have a HD600 that sounds like a HE1 or Susvara if you Auto EQ it to them lol

it's really funny and i wanna test it out someday

[zenith pawn]

Idk if we have headphone stores here

[lone flame]

where do u live?

[zenith pawn]

The options are Best Buy with all the gaming headsets

Midwest USA

[lone flame]

im sure somewhere is a "hifi" store

[zenith pawn]

I'll eq my 6xx to a Razer kraken

[lone flame]

pure upgrade lol

[zenith pawn]

It's like all car audio and home theater

If I look for HiFi stores

[lone flame]

USA. a country that is build to need cars 🙁

[zenith pawn]

those stores are for people to be a menace with their car subwoofers

Hate those things

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/hairtrick-d4s-down4sound-car-audio-sundow-audio-gif-17875195

average car hifi system in the sattes

[elder thistle]

https://soundprofessionals.com/product/sp-bmc-9/#tab-additional_information

might not sound so nice though since it basically narrows your ear canals

can't have them move around too

[warm scarab]

no it doesnt

frequency response isnt going to breaks laws of physics

you will just end up with an hd600 that wants to be a susvara and sounds like shit

[zenith pawn]

well I think you should watch this

what laws of physics is it breaking

[warm scarab]

frequency response is 1 aspect of headphones

its like saying 2 cars are the same because they have the same horsepower

[zenith pawn]

but frequency response would be more like the full VE map, and if those are identical between two engines, and they're the same displacement, then they should have identical performance

because frequency response isn't just one number

and GS has sent I believe multiple times about how the cavity between your headphone and your head is for all intents and purposes minimum phase, so the frequency response can describe it

[warm scarab]

first and foremost lets stop with the car analogy

because like

you are even more wrong regarding the car analogy

[zenith pawn]

how

[warm scarab]

because there is camber, drivetrain, weight distribution, suspension, rollover, wheel size, drivetrain length

[zenith pawn]

I said the engine

I must've deleted the wrong part of it, I meant to say specifically the performance output of the engines is identical

Not the entire car

[warm scarab]

i mean the og analogy was that "its like saying because two cars have same hp they are the same"

unsure why you'd measure the horsepower outside of the car

or presume both cars have the same engine

[zenith pawn]

I mean I thought it makes a closer analogy

[warm scarab]

anyhow

even in the video cameron and others say how it sounds similar

[zenith pawn]

idk what you mean about horsepower outside of the car because I'm just talking about the engine as the control volume but whatever

[warm scarab]

and thats what they say

it sounds similar

it sounds like the other headphone

it isn't the other headphone

they make that very apparent and stress it

which everyone watching the video sounds like they want to ignore

keep in mind they are eqing one dynamic to sound like another

they aren't breaking through the limits of what the driver is capable of, you still cant make an hd600 sound like a stax or a susvara

that is beyond the scope of what was covered

[zenith pawn]

I guess I don't understand if not frequency response what actual change to the system can you make if its minimum phase
Or is it not minimum phase

[warm scarab]

thats pretty like default

we really dont know

and its important to not be someone who jumps on a hypetrain and says shit like "you can just eq hd600 to be susvara"

which you didnt

[zenith pawn]

Actually that's not even right I think it's supposed to instead be the mean effective pressure curves because the airflow alone doesn't translate exactly

Something like that

[elder thistle]

not a lot of people believe the fr=everything idea

as popular as it may seem in specific places and times

[white gate]

It sounds identical

[white gate]

You can 😅

[warm scarab]

you can make an hd600 into stax?

[restive sigil]

@white gate hey GS, when you went to visit HEDD, and you saw how they made the TWO + TWO GT. the black foam pillar thats covering like 1/4th of the AMT driver. did you ask why they went that way for sound tuning instead of finding alternative solutions? or what was their choice for that design. when i look at it and compare it to the TWOs driver, it looks odd to cover (even if thats acoustic foam) 1/5th of the driver...

[lone flame]

no

you don't know how headphones work

If you measre 2 headphones on your head with a MIRE setup

you can make them sound audible identical

there is no secret behind "Sound" in headphones

its just a driver that move for and back and that up 20 20khz (above is irrelevant anyways)

and no. "speed" of an driver doesn't matter. if it can move 20.000 times a second it can do that everywhere in the frequency response

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/jeremiah-johnson-robert-redford-nod-of-approval-yes-you-got-it-gif-3521589

but tbh
why should you make a headphone sound like another except just for a fun "experiment" or experience

its better to EQ it to your personal HRTF anyways

sounds better than any other headphone lol

[lone flame]

many audio companies use "same design" and change some stuff a bit

like that one headphone where the manufacturer used new pads wirh "holes" in them to make it sound better

[restive sigil]

sounds like a thing Meze would do, and Abyss Audio lol

[lone flame]

had no motivation to write a whole essay

[white gate]

Yes

Though once you've got your HRTF data and can do all this stuff, there's little point making one headphone sound like another when you can correct a headphone to your own HRTF and it then destroys literally any headphone out of the box

[zenith pawn]

bro likes x+y and z

[zenith pawn]

why is it not *

some sort of product

[thin void]

for the same reason you cant comp a 711 to measure like a 5128

[thin void]

its literally everything that reaches your ear drum

[haughty girder]

that... is something I don't think I've heard before yet makes perfect sense

[haughty girder]

I have to question though, since FR measurements map out how much (example) 100hz went out compared to 100hz going in, would there not need to be the set of measurements to also show distortion where say, 100hz also produces some amount of 200hz?

so what'd be needed if you really wanted a graph that had everything would be frequency–frequency spectrogram where the big line would be diagonal, but then it'd show what other frequencies show up at any given input frequency

[thin void]

So that depends on level, what you're referring to is harmonics and harmonic distortion. People can hear it in some cases, but it has to be pretty heavy. In those tests it was also relatively isolated. You would need pretty high levels of THD to hear it over your music.

[haughty girder]

mm, so functionally an FR curve would contain basically all that's really important

[thin void]

Yep. People can also measure FR in any given position via noise signals but theres not really a benefit outside of some BT headphones

but yeah FR is the signal that reaches tour ear drum

that said

based on your HRTF it will likely reach your ear drum slightly differently than mine

or from a test fixture

which is why we show measurements as a range

to show person to person variation

like this

[haughty girder]

yaya

ic ok that makes sense

[thin void]

brother... no

Honestly, this is a conversation we've had several times and I'm so tired of trying to explain it

Y will not be consistent across a range of HRTFs. Its not a consistent/linear change. Its not just "ah on your head you'll always get more 6k than me"

[white gate]

I WISH it were that simple

[thin void]

it would be great

but HRTF, hPtf, and acoustic-Z are all factors

[white gate]

Would have saved me, headphones.com, and LTT a hell of a lot of money 😅

[thin void]

acoustic-Z is huge

[thin void]

^

Sometimes where I aperiance a dip, you may experience a peak, OR you may experience a dip at that same spot on another headphone

its not a linear consistent change

because hPtf is affected by acoustic-Z

[thin void]

Thats the thing... they dont retain consistent aspects from head to head because of acoustic-Z and hPtf

[white gate]

@sleek lily are you popcrn?

[thin void]

omg

it all makes sense

because its been measured and shown for years.

this is why we argue the importance of showing measurements with a range of hPtf variation

and the importance of using multiple fixtures

thats... not how it works

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/936101017987186756/1481444689419829389/image0.gif

you will not be able to get the value consistent

because acoustic-Z matters, and we know minimum phase devices interact inconsistently vs ff

[white gate]

@sleek lilyAre you popcrn?

[fast stratus]

[thin void]

correct, this is also why the battle against made up terminology like "resolution" matter

[thin void]

I too want to know this

[white gate]

No, I'm asking if you are the individual that goes/previously went by the name 'popcrn'

[thin void]

im like 90% sure he's popcrn

correct

well it could be FF or DF for the sake of this example

either works

but "outside of min-phase"

the issue is NOT consistent fit or seating... its acoustic-Z and hPtf

you are right on the part that the transfer isnt not the same across all headphones but its not because of the coupling

oh god not this again

@white gate

@sleek lily ^

hi popcrn

ya know, ban evasion via alts is not cool

its relevant because as im sure you know.. Popcrn was known for intentionally being incredibly misleading to people, and consistently ignoring pretty much all solid evidence for the sake of discourse.

[white gate]

[thin void]

no more popcrn

[restive sigil]

you guys see monster studio open concept pc cases? its dope as heck :P but im scared it would be loud while wearing headphones :<

https://youtu.be/Ay6kpf6f9ZU

[chrome imp]

you did some good work today

I'd come in here and see that dude waffling

[thin void]

I use an open bench case and it can be pretty annoying at times

[restive sigil]

:( dam, yeah i can imagine. especially when you just wanna relax to music T-T RIP open backs

[thin void]

yup

mr tek tip has said it well: The most quiet PC is one that isnt in the room

[restive sigil]

for real, but only if you have "the room" :P

[thin void]

That said I would love to see a PC case totally focused on audio, some market it as a feature but SO much more could be done

[thin void]

valid

I have 2 servers in my bedroom so I get it

[restive sigil]

i think an audio focused PC would be sick ! but tbh, id rather have an external dac and amp, rather than slap it inside in one of the slots :P

especially if an amp gets warm... being close to a GPU/CPU.. gonna get even hotter

i think the closest we can get to true "audio pc" is if the entire pc is water cooled.

cpu, gpu, ram, psu

[thin void]

or passive cooling

ive always wanted that big passive cooler

[restive sigil]

Noctua makes a big chungus passive cooler. but idk how well it could work..

[thin void]

I think the solution is gonna really be a case with sound treatment, and some big slow fans

not as thrilling but realistic

[restive sigil]

https://www.noctua.at/en/products/nh-p1

[thin void]

yup this thing is sick

[restive sigil]

is it rated for gaming you think? :S

[thin void]

I forgot the TDP handle for this cooler

95-100W looks like

[restive sigil]

mmm

[thin void]

but not sustained

more like 65W

dont quote me on that, just reading reddit

[restive sigil]

hehe :P nw man

[thin void]

this guy did 200w for 2 min lmao

https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/10e4ms3/200w_for_25_minutes_without_throttling_with/

[restive sigil]

but can he play Star Citzien

[thin void]

im not sure anything can without the game crashing 20 times per minute

[restive sigil]

xD

[thin void]

I play lots of risk of rain 2 and that butchers CPUs during long runs

[restive sigil]

btw DMS, you inspired me to start slowly learning about audio engineering. i kind of want to make my own headphone from scratch

not as a business or like to start making money. but as a "for fun hobby for myself"

[thin void]

Thats wicked! Love that. Immediate advice is pay attention to how things measure in your real human ears. You can make a DIY in-ear mic cheap

[restive sigil]

-adds this to checklist-

xD

[thin void]

🫡

[haughty girder]

dude that's some detective work right there I FORGOT ABOUT POPCRN

and biooc has been around for a while

[patent frigate]

Oh y'all finally got bios alt?

[zenith pawn]

I'd have to revisit my computer case as well because now having open back headphones its obviously audible when the GPU or CPU do any work

I might put it behind my desk or something, since that's a windowsill

Seems the biooc messages have been unfortunately deleted, wanted to see the context for the replies

[thin void]

yuh

[thin void]

already tuned your fan curves?

[zenith pawn]

Yeah

It's mainly the GPU, having any fan at all is a little annoying which it does intermittently

It's about 12-18" away from my head

[elder thistle]

the axe is coming

I will prove that in-situ measurements with the in-ear mics do not shift and will result in accurate recreations of fr's on my main rig

I will replicate that consistent placement on my own ears

I will make a headphone with 2 different drivers, an action camera, and a light in each earcup, and after calibration do a blind test demonstrating I reliably hear the difference between these two drivers

and it will irrecoverably taint the fr=everything narrative through superior testing

it will take a long time before I can do a test like that though

[thin void]

if the signal is actually matched at your ear drum, it will be impossible to hear the difference

I would suggest an ABX for the test, and doing so wih multiple people

[thin void]

also worth noting the rig will not reflect consistency with your in-ear mics

[elder thistle]

I meant basically doing the same procedure on the rig while it wears the inear mics to see if I can get matching fr@711 coupler using only the data of the inear mics

if that doesnt work, then it could question if I'm getting the same fr@eardrum when using the inear mics myself

obviously I am quite confident I will hear differences with fr matched perfectly at my eardrum. I have my reasons for that

but it is critical that we do not assume fr must not have been the same if I hear a difference

if successful measures were taken to provide good evidence that it was the same, we must conclude that fr was likely the same and another factor is at play

and if despite all this working perfectly nobody believes it was fr-matched, understand what position that puts the headphone show's recent videos in

or anyone using inear mics saying they heard two headphones match

hearing the same thing on a flawed fr reproduction through inear mics could invalidate or bring into serious question their abilities to accurately judge tone

[thin void]

if you hear a difference, its because FR isnt the same

thats quite literally it

[elder thistle]

that remains to be proven

presumptions like that are against the reasoning used in scientific studies (controls, test variables, limiting conclusions only as far as the test allows) and will look bad when better testing comes out that contradicts it

for that same reason I also can't leave out the possibility that fr wasn't the same despite the proof and controls in place to remove that variable
(assuming the test is completed)

do not assume that audio research won't move on and twist around disagreeably without you or anyone else's interactions

[thin void]

its not a presumption, its something that we've repeatably tested and papers are being written on

Imo whats a presumption is "immeasurable magic that defies physics is what makes headphone sound different"

and fuels things like cable manufacturers

[elder thistle]

there is a reason those papers are so limited in scope

[lone flame]

LMAOOOOO

finally

peace

https://tenor.com/view/ascending-heaven-keanu-reeves-constantine-ascending-to-heaven-gif-11437079898090715826

[haughty girder]

have you ever seen a phd paper that's super wide in scope

your dissertation should be somewhat broad, but as soon you're trying to get into the details it's impossible for a single paper to cover multiple topics. In fact it's better for a paper to stick to its original super focused point, rather than bouncing around trying to talk about all the different variables in a particular topic

you're writing a paper, not a textbook.

[elder thistle]

that's correct

show me the study where trained listeners, ones who have never experienced changes in techs like resolution when doing eq, fail a blind test between two differently resolving headphones as they have become the same with eq

[lone flame]

hi

idk if im a traines listener

but i already made 2 headphones sound "nearly" the same

was not able to made them sound identical just because my "placebo" and mood od hearing different and other factors that change how i hear fucked it up

and most likely skilldiff lol
But if i had the Data. ez

[elder thistle]

yes you told me this

[elder thistle]

better yet,

show me the studies that predetermine that my results in a properly controlled scientific test will never matter as long as they're in disagreement with someone else's findings

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/jpj-liar-jim-carrey-liarliar-gif-9556301970071555255

physics

[elder thistle]

these are rhetorical. I'm just saying the suggestion is rather silly

no paper I have ever found or been shown has suggested to me that we're complying with physics by saying fr at the eardrum is everything

[lone flame]

ok question. what does your eardrum capture?

[zenith pawn]

The frequency response at your eardrum is a complete description of what the eardrum can perceive, that shouldn't be a debate. But the what if there's other ways your brain perceive a difference other than using the eardrum

[lone flame]

a difference defined as "placebo"?

[zenith pawn]

Other than that :p

[elder thistle]

an eardrum is part of a very big system. sound at the eardrum is 1 parameter of the system

[zenith pawn]

I believe that's the argument I've seen. I have no idea myself

[lone flame]

yeah but your eardrum is the ADC.

[elder thistle]

lol

[lone flame]

your eardrums captures sound

nothing more lol

[zenith pawn]

Well it wouldn't be an ADC because that would specifically mean converting analog to digital

[lone flame]

its has no other biological intention to do something else

[lone flame]

ok well the ADC part comes a bit behind the eardrum
but our brain functionals pretty equally to "digital"

[zenith pawn]

I'm pretty sure stuff in your brain isn't digital

[lone flame]

the material itself isn't but how neurons share information with each others

electrical impulses

[zenith pawn]

just because it's electrical doesn't mean it's digital

[lone flame]

also humans already copied a Fly's brain and let it live in a Digital world lol

[lone flame]

our PCs are electrical too

[zenith pawn]

both brain and PC are electrical but that doesn't mean your PC is conscious

or the brain is digital

[elder thistle]

the large snail shell thing is called the cochlear

[lone flame]

ik the snail

[zenith pawn]

ear snail is crazy

[elder thistle]

it contains two parallel tubes that sound enters through their connection to the eardrum

[pulsar light]

brain is definitely analog

[lone flame]

i meant with that that it uses electrical impulses, like a computer

ofc there is more like chemistry lol

[pulsar light]

thats not what digital means tho

[lone flame]

yeah fck my shitty wording

[elder thistle]

there are celia between these tubes. whenever there is a strong misalignment in phase, that small range of frequencies vibrates celia

this is where a lot of our perception of sound is believed to come from

it is nothing like a microphone capsule

[zenith pawn]

I'm just trying to say afaik your brain isn't quantizing your ear sound into a digital signal like an ADC at all, so its a confusing analogy

[lone flame]

it gets translated from "soundwaves" to an electrical signal

[zenith pawn]

Yeah

Very different than an ADC

idk the right term but its not that

some sort of translator

[elder thistle]

now tell me this: if we're using "physics" to describe the interactions sound has at the eardrum, what makes you believe that no physical phenomenon occurs behind the eardrum, with resonances in the cochlear tubes disobeying newton's 3rd law?

is there an inexplicable void behind the eardrum?

is it a black hole

[lone flame]

did anyone ever measured SPL behind a ear drum?

[elder thistle]

and why do we assume the eardrum is the only path forces can take to the eardrum or the area behind the eardrum

why would the volume of air applying force to the side of the head be irrelevant to the forces within the head? what about lateral forces the eardrum is subjected to? or just in general how much strain on the canal walls reduces stress caused by different moving volumes of air?

[lone flame]

im pretty sure some other peoples here can explain it better

our eardrum is Low Z iirc

so behind it (normally) no pressure should build up

[elder thistle]

if the eardrum is lightweight (yes), it is sensitive to tiny forces

[lone flame]

and I don't think the sound in my head has enough energy to affect other things like the “mallet” or the “anvil.”

[elder thistle]

no engineer would design a measurement microphone like the way the ear is set up, if their goal was to measure speakers or something

[lone flame]

They're just tiny and don't have much “surface area.” Plus, I don't think they move around freely; instead, they follow a “fixed” pattern as they move in response to the eardrum.

It's like trying to push a car. You can't do it from the side, but you can from the front or back.

and yeah. with headphones. the sound only goes straight into our ears

and im sure that "bone conduction" here is so insanely low that it doesn't have any impact on our ears due to lack of energy

[elder thistle]

no, it doesn't

[lone flame]

it goes against our head, pinnae, it bleeds out into our room

but the "bleed" is irrelevant

if you dont listen at 120dB SPL lol

or explain why not

maybe i missed some infos

[elder thistle]

the bleed from an open back has theoretical implications for soundstage, like for example the volume of moving air appearing larger around the ear. some of which is reflected in fr, a lot of it not. soundstage is more of a brain reaction, and this could rely on open-ness to have something appear staged

doing anything to the backwave of a headphone though, such as venting it, affects everything about the headphone and therefore what hits the ear and everything else

[fast stratus]

My brother actually ended up getting these, pretty decent.

Especially so if you consider the price.

[elder thistle]

aren't they $80 now

no $60

36 with prime though

[fast stratus]

💀

What?

It was 50 after tax.

A bit more expensive than usual.

[elder thistle]

I think they were $80 something at some point

[fast stratus]

$80 is wild.

[thin void]

B&K has entered the chat

[thin void]

I would like to note there is not evidence to support this

[thin void]

correct

the only real notable factor in open vs closed is acoustic-Z and noise floor

[honest spruce]

Anyone got any recommendations for open back headphones? around $300 max

[restive sigil]

theres alot, what more can you tell us about what you're looking for with more specific parameters other than 300$ and open back.

[honest spruce]

primarily used for gaming. some movies etc. want comfortable ones, not super heavy so you dont get tired. accurate sound. good imaging etc

[restive sigil]

so, when it comes to gaming and movies. usually people want more a V shape for nice bass.

if you want something that can "identify footsteps" you'll have to make a sacrifice for bass and something a bit more mid-higher freq focused with better sound stage and imaging.

not super heavy, that should be easy, since most likely you're gonna end up with a DD and not a Planar.

when you say around 300$ max, how much wiggle room? im assuming -+ 50$

[honest spruce]

if there are amazing ones for like 4-500 id be willing to go there if the upgrade is significant, but i was thinking around 300 to begin with

[restive sigil]

ok thats a good sum to work with. do you have already an amplifier / dac or do you plug it in directly into your PC case/MB or console controller ?

[honest spruce]

i still have my old Goxlr

[restive sigil]

the sound board thingy ?

[honest spruce]

so ive plugged it in there 3.5

yeah

[restive sigil]

hmm

would you say you're clamp sensitive ?

[honest spruce]

i dont need to use that, but its that or directly in the pc, or buy something else. clamp sensitive? no idea honestly

[restive sigil]

okay so i can roughly suggest a few off the cuff

[honest spruce]

never noticed any sensitivity with clamping before, but the more they feel like their not even on my head the better. without sacrificing quality etc obviously

and yes, im willing to sacrifice some accuracy to boost the imaging with the footsteps, and all those effect sounds etc like you said

[restive sigil]

1. Beyer Dynamic DT 900 Pro X (open back 400$)
2. Beyer Dynamic DT 990 Pro X (300$)
3. Audio Technica r70xa (400$)
4. Audio Technica r50x (250$)
5. Sennheiser HD 650 (400-500$ depends on if theres sale)
6. Sennheiser HD 660S2 (450 - 600$, depends on sale)
7. Sony MDR-MV1 (400 - 500$ depends on sale)

the best i can do (i know some are a bit higher, but if they're on sale, its a good grab)

[honest spruce]

i did see a lot about the beyer and sennheiser. are all these pretty much the same?

[restive sigil]

they're in the same "studio genre" but they do sound different

(personally) i find the HD 650 not good for gaming, its narrow and not as clear for gaming. can get "fuzzy" sometimes.
Beyers are detailed and have a good enough sound space, but to some can be "peaky" if you're listening to alot of shouty higher frequency sounds. eg: brass instruments or alot of chimy / electronica high pitched sounds. Beyers tend to be a bit more "clampy" but way better built than Sennheiser. Sennheiser tends to use mostly all plastic, and beyer uses 50/50 plastic and metal.

audio technica is VERY light, the lighest on the head in the group by far

VERY open also

however, sound is (imo) not on par with Senny or beyer.

ATH tends to be a bit dry

[honest spruce]

i will not sacrifice sound for weight

[restive sigil]

ATH can also miss some detail sometimes compared to senny or beyer

mkay

i would say maybe if you can demo a headphone in person (i always urge this before buying anything) to focus on either Beyer or Senny. the two seem to be the most popular "first real headphone" for many people.

[haughty girder]

I'd immediately knock the dt990, dt900pro x, and r50x off that list.

[restive sigil]

thanks for clarifying you're a senny fan :P

[honest spruce]

i guess its some personal preference, but hard to test them all before buying, if you had to pick a pair or two?

[restive sigil]

ouf

honestly

[haughty girder]

Add maybe the ft1 pro if you want a somewhat budget open back

act yeah ft1 pro and 560s over the r50x anyday

[restive sigil]

depends, because im not sure what your interface sounds like, im not sure what films, games, music you enjoy. my preference in sound will be different.

[haughty girder]

Brother have you heard the dt900 and 990?

[restive sigil]

i've owned a 650, sold it because i didnt like it. i prefer beyer and sony. but depends on application. for films i prefer sony, for gaming, beyer, for music... well other brands ^^;

[restive sigil]

ive owned both

[haughty girder]

and you're okay with the way they're dampened and tuned?

[restive sigil]

wasnt a problem on my setup

and for the music i listen to and my use case

again, depends on personal preference

[haughty girder]

Like no hate, I genuinely disliked the dt990, the 900 was not terrible but I wouldn't take it over an 880 either

[restive sigil]

this is why i urge people to try things in person, before taking anyone onlines "opinion" and blind buying. especially when it comes to 200$+ headphones.

[haughty girder]

that's fair.

[restive sigil]

i never support blind buying, its the worst possible thing. unless you've been in the hobby for an extremely long time. have tried / owned more than 20+ headphones. and know exactly what kind of sound you enjoy or are looking for based on information from specs

ive been in the hobby since around 2007-ish

ive owned confidently 30+ headphones

i currently have 7 headphones

and plan on buying 2 more this year

xD

(not even counting gaming headsets)

[haughty girder]

cool, I still don't understand the dt990 recc.

[restive sigil]

the 990 is more "enough on a budget" headphone

[haughty girder]

Why dt990 over 880? in your opinion

[restive sigil]

i've seen them hit as low as 180 / 200$

depends on sale

[haughty girder]

I've also seen hd600 at that price

[restive sigil]

i havent

(in canada)

[honest spruce]

any of you tried the Bowers & Wilkins Px8's?

[restive sigil]

HD 600 ive never seen go as low as 400$

[haughty girder]

London drugs and amazon had em 379 CAD at LD and Amazon

or 349? one of em

[restive sigil]

ive owned a few B&W headphones, not tried the Px8 but i wouldnt recommend it. they're more "fashion wireless BT cans"

[lean grove]

Tsuku just gives bad advice

[restive sigil]

that too ^

if my taste differs from yours it means its bad

xD

[honest spruce]

thats what ive used for wireless music

[restive sigil]

i mean, do you enjoy that sound profile ?

its quite V shaped

[haughty girder]

no but dt990 over 880 means you don't hear sibilance or literally anything that makes a headphone undesirable

I'm not even mad about the dt900 that one is okay

[restive sigil]

that will depend on the persons hearing

[lean grove]

The other day when that guy was asking for advice on getting a $500 headphone you told him to get a $600 DAC amp. And when I mentioned that was a bad idea you suggested a $300 dongle as a cheap option.

[honest spruce]

was nice, but again probably first and only kinda expensive ones ive tried, so hard to compare

[lean grove]

That's not different taste that's just bad.

[restive sigil]

i mean i didnt know he wanted a whole package for that price point

[restive sigil]

B&W is really V shaped, id say maybe Sony would lean closer to B&W. but imo, sony sounds better than B&W. they tend to give a bit more detail, but do share the same V-ish sound tuning.

Sennheiser and Beyer wont sound anything like B&W by a long shot

[haughty girder]

Your hearing doesn't magically cause a headphone to stop being sibilant lmao

[restive sigil]

it can, depending on your music taste, listening volume, and which frequencies you can hear.

[haughty girder]

your sensitivity to it can change but the peaks exists regardless of whether you're sensitive or not

[honest spruce]

for all i know i could prefer sennheiser or beyer, havent tried. might have to go test them all out i guess

[restive sigil]

if you dont hear the peak, it wont exist to your hearing.

[haughty girder]

and it's not like it's got anything else to redeem it, unlike headphones like the ft1

[restive sigil]

also depends how often the music you listen to, hits that peak

[haughty girder]

Your hear it but whether it causes pain is the difference

[haughty girder]

Brother literally anything with drums does lmao

[restive sigil]

thats the best solution, please try the headphone in store if you're able to. dont blind buy. listen to music you enjoy and judge for yourself which one sounds better to you. and then get whichever you want.

[honest spruce]

what are the other guys opinions here since they seem very against some of the recommendations lol

[thin void]

6XX while you can still find them

[honest spruce]

so anything 600?

[thin void]

I will fight against DT990 till my dying breath

[haughty girder]

lmao

[chrome imp]

I miss my 6XX's, gave them to my brother and got Hifiman Ananda instead, but ananda makes vocals sound harsh to me

[thin void]

imo some HD6X0 series like 600, 650, 580, 6XX used on ebay and call it a day.

[haughty girder]

I tell someone I don't agree with their reccs and they go "hurr durr do you know who I am???"

[restive sigil]

love you too DMS <3

[thin void]

they're not "exciting/thrilling" and not "thumpy" in the bass, BUT, its a DAMN good well rounded open back headphone

[restive sigil]

when did i say that o.O

all i said was yeah i did own them

[thin void]

https://giphy.com/gifs/echilibrultau-emoji-emoticon-emojis-WtOkaikiwaR87ZvAFH

[honest spruce]

oh 6xx is a pair

[thin void]

yup

just recently discontinued pair

[chrome imp]

they're just mint man. Being able to get them for like $180-190 was awesome

[restive sigil]

can find 6XX used im sure on ebay

[thin void]

100%

[honest spruce]

anything special about them?

[restive sigil]

btw DMS, i saw your D7000 review from FA, i know you said they were bassy monsta. would you think good for Black metal? :o

[restive sigil]

USD?

[haughty girder]

no this is amazon.ca go check it urself lmao

canada

I'm Canadian

[thin void]

just one of the most neutral/commonly liked headphones on the market. Thats really what it boils down to. There's many many many other headphones out there that are more bassy, more stagey, etc, BUT its near impossible for anything to be as well rounded as the 6X0 series. Also highly repairable.

[thin void]

I can see potential for it, THOUGH I will say its a hard sell with how expensive FA is.

[haughty girder]

That too yeah you can basically take the whole thing apart with barely any tools if at all

[restive sigil]

gues price drop, nice yeah could get 600, but i found 650 better than 600

[thin void]

^ also prefer 650

[haughty girder]

it's been "dropped" for literally half a year to a year now

[restive sigil]

yeah very true, im kinda mauling over it.
can only get 1 headphone this year (saving up for car)

FA - D7000
ETA - Uli
Hedd - TWO / TWO GT
Meze Empy II

[haughty girder]

insane work

[honest spruce]

okey, ive heard ppl say the 560s are better for gaming than 600's. that true?

[restive sigil]

i wanna lean to yes, i did hear the 560 briefly from a co-worker. the 600 really are more for music.

[thin void]

depends on a few factors, if gaming is the primary concern over music a PC38X will have a better frequency response for that

[honest spruce]

it will be used 95% of the time for gaming

[thin void]

PC38X then https://drop.com/buy/drop-pc38x-gaming-headset

[haughty girder]

+1 for 38x for gaming even the mic sounds pretty alright

[thin void]

in the study we did a year ago the PC38X was the closest FR we could find for a gaming optimised headset, still solid for music.

I would commit war crimes for a 2.4ghz wireless PC38X

[restive sigil]

dont do it ! lol

DMS you're canadian now D:

we dont do this