audio-tech

[terse river]

like some razor gaming headset and some 6xxs

so i dont see why that logic cant be applied between the headsets i showed

[elder thistle]

the razer blackshark v2x has a leg up over the 6xx in several things depending on your definitions of up

so will the razer kraken kitty v2

headphones are comprised of many many properties

[terse river]

well, considering i have only been exposed to one demographic of them, and that being bad, i have nothing to go off of

[elder thistle]

here's some ways a cheap headset could outperform* an hd6xx

[terse river]

so i was planning on buying 6xxs, and without going to an in person store and planning on buying on ebay, i dont really have a way to test different types

[elder thistle]

6xx is not a blind buy, nothing really is. I've met servers-worth of people that tried and disliked the 6xx more than $20 earphones

[terse river]

ok. im not sure what i should do with that info however

i understand that there will be minute nuances that can make or break a headset for me, ive gone through similar processes before, but i cant really test different headsets, so im just checking to see if there are some just generally better headsets to buy and im not making a huge mistake

[elder thistle]

different kinds of music and games challenge the techs of different headphones

[terse river]

classical

so i basically need good sound in a very wide range

i guess i do know a little of what i want

i dont want the low end to be muddy (like low tuba)

thats important to me

[elder thistle]

yes that's good

[terse river]

and i dont want the like higher end (think high pitched violin) to be very tinny or nasaly

and in between it needs to be good audio or whats the point

[elder thistle]

so there are 2 schools of thought I'm aware of with listeners of classical music

instruments can be clearly separated in 3d space while often being very vivid that they exist, instruments "pop", you could say

[terse river]

im not exactly sure i understand, maybe something like this?https://open.spotify.com/track/2Y0tFR4iYR57EnBK4mf34l?si=0da8fead4c9b4e54

listen to the beginning

not the preview

[elder thistle]

this is the realm of planars like the edition xs. they also tend to have really tight and deep bass

ye one sec

[terse river]

i am a fan of being able to hear bass clearly, that would be very nice

[elder thistle]

hard to say

but I'm talking about 2 things

1 is the position of the sound in 3d space

quite literally where it is in relation to your head. which direction, how far

this is something planars often really bring out

it still depends on which planar, and there are dynamic headphones that do some of this too

the xs here is just our classic example

2 is that the volume of each sound appears the same or closer to the same

[terse river]

oh this doesnt interest me much

[terse river]

well, i still care about different sounds having distinct volumes

[elder thistle]

that's good to know

[terse river]

i mean i dont see why not having 3d audio would stop that

[elder thistle]

very good

might have something to do with driver size, but it's very speculative

not completely reliable either. e.g this doesn't make earbuds behave the opposite way

but

and as soon as you said classical I had a feeling this would happen,

the other school of thought are headphones like the hd650 (which is for the most part the 6xx)

planars like the xs often have this weird artificial-ness or twang to the treble that makes real life instruments sound strange

it's one of the compromises that such users accept and have fade into the background as they get used to it

the 650 doesn't have as tight of bass, the bass is quieter, and sounds can appear more glued together

some people like the sounds mushing together like this. in fairness at least the hd600 seems pretty good at avoiding this despite having most of the instruments close together in 3d space

[terse river]

ive heard a lot of good about the 600s, but i was assumiing 6xxs were better

[elder thistle]

the hd6xx/650 has a pretty big treble dip that makes sounds blend a little more

personally I like the hd600 more for that reason. they're otherwise basically the same headphones as the 6xx/650, but I'm not a fan of masking

I like hearing all the sounds in a mix as clearly as possible

nevertheless the 6xx is riding behind the same pair of drivers and should have no problem keeping instruments pretty clear as long as there isn't so many

[elder thistle]

the hd6x0 series of headphones is famous for not having this and instead sounding very true to life in that particular way

the other substantial difference with those headphones is they're able to show differences in volume between instruments more clearly

[terse river]

so 600, 6xx, 650, and more?

[elder thistle]

perhaps more importantly it can show the changes in volume in the same instrument, like big drums or someone singing

[terse river]

i honestly think thats what im going for then

[elder thistle]

I believe so yes

personally I use the neumann ndh20 more, a closed back. though it's very much a studio headphone and boosts some of the quietest details, it does show a lot of these dynamics (changes in volume) and still has quite realistic timbre. it's main specialty is keeping sounds separate in identity basically by having unrivaled clarity, far beyond the edition xs and 6xx

[terse river]

i actually do not know the pros and cons of open back vs closed back

[elder thistle]

more bass, also more expensive

[terse river]

i was under the impression that if i wanted a big sound, like that in an auditorium, open back is better

[elder thistle]

in this case just the isolation. open backs let in more sound and leak a little out

open backs are usually better for this yes. there are many exceptions but it's still uncommon

the ndh20 is narrower and therefore like a traditional closed back

another one to look at possibly is the ath-r70x or xa. I only have their r50x. these have more bass than the 6xx and 600. they're wider and do some of this 3d positioning stuff like the edition xs does. and at least based on my r50x, they sound quite true to life with their timbre and boost the quietest details like the ndh20

[lean grove]

not necessarily.

open backs present sound in a more natural way and are easier to tune, so they're generally better.
there are some dogshit open backs and some decent closed backs. but the natural sound of not feeling like your ears are being blocked and having ventilation is really nice.
but for something like the HD600, its going to rely a lot more on the quality of recording for a spacious sound. it won't artifically provide that 'auditorium sound' if you have a very intimate recording

[terse river]

im curious, if i wanted to experience this 3d positioning, where would i? is there a specific application or way to find songs that have them?

[lean grove]

it would rely on the recording

there are virtual surround sound programs you can download for free, but they're usually not that great

[terse river]

ah i see

im not looking for making intimate recordings have big and open sound, but if it should, like in some symphony, then i would want that to be brought out to its fullest extent

[elder thistle]

most recordings with real life instruments naturally contain echoes and audio information that would tell someone's brain that the instrument is in a room in a certain position

the headphone's job is to portray these things more or less visibly

[lean grove]

the 6X0 accurately reflect what is being recorded. if the symphony has a big and open sound as it recorded, thats what you'll get.

[elder thistle]

ehh...

well I wouldn't say it's super supressive of soundstage shenanigans. but I don't think it's true to life in that way

dt880 comes to mind

or maybe gen1 560s

[elder thistle]

also do note that it's possible for us to be hearing different things from the same headphone

I've just very rarely heard someone say the 600 and 650/6xx's stage was untouched

generally people call it intimate, narrow, sometimes 3-blob

[lean grove]

i blame that primarily on the audio they're listening to

[elder thistle]

3 blob meaning the 3 general areas sounds tend to appear. front, left, and right

[terse river]

well im not sure what all this means, but if im looking for a big sound for big pieces, and intimate sounds for intimate pieces, to have a pretty not muddy bass, and not tinny or nasal audio up to like 4k htz, and ig thats it idr remember should i still get the 6xxs?

[lean grove]

yes

[elder thistle]

maybe

to me what makes the 6xx sound big is cinematic drums

what it doesn't have in spaciousness (compared to most open backs), it has in dynamics and creating a large sense of volume and scale

do I find the 6xx spacious? yeah moreso than most of my headphones, at least half are closed backs to so

but look into the r70xa too

also I didn't mean to drill you about "best sound" out of annoyance or anything, but I figured you came from headphones.com's discord, r/headphones, or maybe audio lounge

in which case they already planted the idea that there is a best sound

which was irresponsible of them

even if we happened to lead to a similar result

[terse river]

oh no i havent lol

i guess it was a little ignorant to think it was as simple as one headset is better than another

but thanks for all the help i think i know what im doing more now

[terse river]

willl do

[lean grove]

every person is different. their hearing physiology and music preferences are the biggest things that impact that.
your ears and head are a different shape than mine. and therefore the headphone will interact with you slightly differently than me.

so the only way to know whats 'best' is for you to try everything, or have enough experience to figure out specifically what is important for you

[elder thistle]

ye

[lean grove]

people online can make educated guesses, or refer you to things that most people like. but they'll never be able to tell you whats perfect for you

[elder thistle]

all we can really provide is a good guess

[terse river]

see for buying speakers it was way simpler

[lean grove]

speakers are easier to design. you can clearly point to a speaker and see that something is objectively better or objectively worse. there are fancy measurement rigs that can look at the complete picture of the way a speaker reacts and give you really good estimations on how it will perform.

so far there is nothing like that for headphones.

[terse river]

there was a pretty clear amp or amp series i should buy from for my price range

and for speakers you just find your price range and you look at 3 options and pick the prettiest one lol

[zenith pawn]

does anyone know the origin of the pink panther on audiosciencereview? Like whether it's a custom character or if it's from something else

[glad creek]

It's a kid show

[warm scarab]

its a cartoon

and it is literally called the pink panther lol

also has several movies

[buoyant vale]

If only there was some kind of website where you could find information about stuff

[lone flame]

If you are not a fan good. But recommending something purely on "if i like it its good" and not using intersubjective thoughts etc is imo not correct

[lone flame]

no...

firstly... Games are mostle the issue when it comes to "sound localization" bcs the Sound Engine is oftenly just bad

second of all. with EQ you can fix nearly every problem unless you dont run into absoluty intense negative pre or THD

i was able to fix "Soundstage" and "Sound Seperation" etc with EQ on all of my headphones pretty easly

atleast it was easy for me

[lone flame]

Dynamics is also absolutly NOT a headphone thing

[lone flame]

For that. The headphone is somewhat irrelevant

you could use nearly everything, If you know how to EQ properly you can fix that

a consistent headphone, so one with less seat, seal and position variance is nice for that

like an HD800s as example

but most open backs work perfectly fine

some people belive there is an DSP inside of a headphone. even tho it's just 2 transducers that you feed with a signal

and most headphones Jackson recommend are generaly disliked in average.
Like i can ask everyone
SHP9500 is disliked by far,
FT1 is liked ALOT!
NDH20 is disliked by far
HD6xx... Well. both sides are intense, the haters and lovers.
R70x/xa and R50x pretty solid IF you like the tuning (espacially on the R50x)

i don't recommend stuff purely of "if i like it or not" because my opinion is just one of alot. And i hear differently as you anyways bcs our ears aren't the same. So i look into Data and a Intersubjective opinion 😄

[glad creek]

You could search for binaural tracks

[lone flame]

Virtual Barber imo a nice thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

[verbal fog]

i paid 60 total for a pair of these uh do you reckon i did decent

[sleek lily]

I'd say you'd probably be best off with something like an xs if youre looking for presentation tbh. Honestly, it surprised me with how wide it is, but I'm still trying to get hifiman to take my xs back because it's not what I ordered lol

Besides the 545 series of 6x0 though, most of them are pretty narrow and kinda blurred in imaging

But when you listen to the right tracks, they can be incredibly lively and detailed.

Speakers will also do much much much better at this task of presentstion too.

Generally speaking

[sleek lily]

No, we've gone over this. The current scientific understanding on how presentation in both the distance and directional sense are aspects not even touched on by eq. They're much more complex to digitally alter, as they have to do with the specific ild, itd, and drr. You just plain and simply can't eq these aspects, nor can you eq step behavior or any form of non linear ear to ear variance. You also can't eq reactivity dependent issues.

[lone flame]

i can EQ Stuff like Soundstage etc in

and Sound seperation

and that is absolutly not Placebo

[sleek lily]

No, you plain and simply can't, because they aren't due to amplitude in a linear sense

They're due to ear to ear differences

[lone flame]

i dont use targets to EQ?

like there is no "ear to ear" difference if i EQ for myself, for my ear?

[sleek lily]

That has nothing to do with what I said...

It has 0 to do with a target...

It has to do with the fact you and me and everyone else has 2 ears

[lone flame]

yeah ik

still i did it with nearly every headphone i have

and it significally improved by alot

[sleek lily]

There is a difference in amplitude and time domain of ques reaching each ear, as well as som reverperative sounds that help the brain narrow in on these ques.

Eq doesn't touch any of these differences, but rather just linearly will increase volume of a frequency being played back.

[lone flame]

doesn't change the fact that it works for me

[sleek lily]

That's likely placebo then, but not science or fact.

[lone flame]

it is NOT placebo

[sleek lily]

Unless you believe all current science is wrong, in which case, do your own study.

[lone flame]

if it works, it works

and it worked for others too lol

[sleek lily]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4744263/

I recommend reading into this

Instead of trying to pass a sort of pseudo science as fact. You can explain your experience, and maybe there is some unstudied factor to explain it, but please, don't try to pass a currently pseudoscientific oversimplification as the only known fact when it's at odds with current research. That's all I ask.

[lone flame]

it works for me, works for other too

and its not placebo

[sleek lily]

Then you can explain your experience as an experience.

[lone flame]

you could try it too

should work

wouldn't work perfectly ofc

[sleek lily]

But an experience doesn't replace scientific research, application, and explanations just because something you feel works works

[sleek lily]

It doesn't

That's my experience

[lone flame]

If i hit my HRTF with my EQ?

[lone flame]

maybe u did it wrong?

[sleek lily]

No

I have plenty of measuring equipment. I didn't do this wrong. My experience just doesn't align with yours which is fine. My basis for this isn't on my experience though, it's based on what science currently shows.

[lone flame]

im not talking about measurements

you can try the way i did it

[sleek lily]

If you believe there is some other aspects that science hasn't touched on yet through current peer reviewed research, do your own research and write your own paper.

But until then, your experience is an experience, not a new universal law.

[lone flame]

the people that tried my method experienced too

[sleek lily]

Yes, and people can be biased into believing things that don't change anything change things.

It's the same logic people use to claim cables change sound in opposition to scientific understanding and measurements.

It's just two different pseudosciences until there is research corroborating this.

[lone flame]

havent really heard a difference from my C200 to my stack

[sleek lily]

I don't doubt that

[lone flame]

but the EQ was a game change. espacially for my Hexa due to Earcanal diff

[sleek lily]

I don't doubt you experienced it.

[lone flame]

u should try my method

[sleek lily]

But I know your explanation that eq is all that determines presentation is objectively wrong.

[lone flame]

its not 100% FR

we need
Frequencies
Amplitude
Phase
and Time delay between L and R ear

[sleek lily]

As it stands, it's close to 0% besides coincidental removal of masking of low volume ques

[lone flame]

time delay can be in the signal itself
Phase too
and Frequencies and Phase are FR

[lone flame]

just try my method

[sleek lily]

You need a lot more than that, and most of that isn't at all touched by eq.

[sleek lily]

Again, you're assuming I haven't. As I said, your experience is valid. However, that doesn't make it scientific fact.

And like I said, maybe there is more to it. I can even explain part of it with that masking of frequencies being removed and some indicator sounds being in those ranges.

But it doesn't magically make that all that matters, bypassing current known research and studies on the topic. You can do your own research, and maybe you will find a slight lesser touched on aspect of this behavior.

In short, you can have your experience, but don't try to act as if it's fact, and don't use your experience to try and discredit others like Jackson just because your experience doesn't align with them. @lone flame

If someone enjoys their gold twisted cables, that's fine. If they think they enjoy them more than their silver straight cables, that's fine. If they go around saying that amplitude is a lie because they experienced the magic of the gold cable and anyone who believes in amplitude should be ignored, that's problematic. It's the same thing here.

[warm scarab]

im factually correct 100% of the time so my advice is to try being a bit more like me

[lone flame]

u know what my method is?

[lone flame]

sometimes cables DO sound different if you intentionally design it to do that

some cables can be like 2 or 3dB louder

[sleek lily]

What do you think makes a cable do "that"

[lone flame]

ofc most of the cables are just cables. if not fcked up they won't be audible different

[lone flame]

impedance etc

[warm scarab]

impedance etc

can you tell me what etc is

[lone flame]

diameter of the cable too

probably

[warm scarab]

that is impedance

so no

[lone flame]

so ye impedance

[sleek lily]

Unless you purposefully add a resistor to a cable or an inductor or a capacitor to create a series pass filter, they will not impact sound

[warm scarab]

ok what else

[sleek lily]

Because without those, a cable is almost entirely resistive, at less than 1 ohm, meaning the difference is usually not enough to be a relevant voltage divider or attenuator even

[sleek lily]

What do you think impedance is?

[lean grove]

The problem with having bad opinions is when you use them to recommend stuff to other people. There's NO problem with someone buying gold twisted cryo cables for themselves but when they go around recommending that new people buy them to make some expensive and bad headphones sound good, then there's a problem.

[warm scarab]

cable dudes when you ask them to name one factor that isnt impedance

[lone flame]

cable vs cable

[warm scarab]

woah

anyways

[lone flame]

6dB louder

[warm scarab]

crazy

[lean grove]

This is a very unique specimen where the driver has a 1 ohm impedance.

[lone flame]

and if you match volume

[warm scarab]

how much does the cable cost btw

for context

lol

[lone flame]

yeah. i dont say you should care

bcs imo you just shouldn't care lol

[warm scarab]

he is asking why anyone should

not about him

[sleek lily]

Unless one of those cables has a 100ohm resistor stuck in or that headphone is 0.5ohms, the cable isn't doing all that.

[warm scarab]

like how much do you think 12awg copper wire costs vs the cost of this cable in the test lol

[sleek lily]

You can calculate the impact of a cable as a resistor. It's just basic voltage divider rule.

[lone flame]

bcs he spoke about cables

[sleek lily]

It acts as a series resistor

[lean grove]

They're raal's so it's closer to a 0.5 ohm headphone

[lone flame]

and i just clarified that there CAN be a valid reason

[warm scarab]

"The problem with having bad opinions is when you use them to recommend stuff to other people. There's NO problem with someone buying gold twisted cryo cables for themselves but when they go around recommending that new people buy them to make some expensive and bad headphones sound good, then there's a problem."

[sleek lily]

One cable being 0.1 ohm while another is 0.2 ohms would mean one is literally twice as resistive as the other, but in terms of voltage divider, the voltage at the source will be about equal to across the driver still, because that doubled series resistance is not even a relevant fraction of the total series resistance

[lean grove]

I was responding to this

[lone flame]

i dont recommend stuff out off my experience. mostly use objective data and intersubjective thoughts

so what most people think

[sleek lily]

Again, you misinterpret objective data and apply it where it doesn't apply, using a flawed model of frequency response explaining all axis and variables to hand wave discrepancies.

[warm scarab]

you recommend stupid stuff for stupid cases

Look

the cheapest skedra cable is 99 GBP

how much do you think a wire of any gauge between 7 to 14 costs

[lone flame]

i don't care about cables

[warm scarab]

you would have to be actually disabled to pay for this

[lone flame]

i get cables bcs of looks and feels, and the connector

[warm scarab]

its literally any wire you can buy from an electrics shop

[lone flame]

ik?

copper is copper

[warm scarab]

23awg btw lmao

[sleek lily]

And that's fine. My issue is with you trying to use an objectively flawed model to discredit people like jackson who are ironically much more objective and physics based with their claims. @lone flame

[warm scarab]

430 gbp

man i swear one of these days ill launch my cable business

sell some crystals while at it

[lone flame]

fr. that should work. 💀

diamond plated cables

[sleek lily]

And then acting like the model that objectively doesn't work is factual.

[warm scarab]

imagine getting a clown to pay you 400gbp for 12awg, 1 splitter and 2 connectors

these guys are living good

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

"jackson who are ironically much more objective and physics based with their claims"
him: "Microdynamics, Macrodynamics, Dynamics in Headphones"

ah yes

[sleek lily]

The audio science(tolgy) "everything is frequency response and if this model doesn't work, it's just frequency response you and science don't understand yet" crowd is just kinda a pretentious version of the pseudo science cable crowd tbh.

[lone flame]

Or you are wrong and the science is true

may be Dunning Kruger or not

time will tell

[sleek lily]

@lone flame I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but making a model that doesn't work of summing everything to one variable, hand waving away the times the model doesn't work, and not applying any physics or reasoning to why one thinks the model works is not science.

If something doesn't work with physics, good chance it isn't science.

If something doesn't work under scrutiny, it's probably not science.

[sleek lily]

It's just a pseudoscience crowd that claims science as a badge rather than actually using it

[lone flame]

could repost that image again

[sleek lily]

Go ahead. It doesn't change a thing I said.

[lone flame]

like. i already answered with "time will tell"
So that means. We will have more data in the future and know more about that in general

[sleek lily]

If you treat a belief like religion and just say "science" after, that's not science.

[lone flame]

well. You say that it's not science

[sleek lily]

Because it isn't. It objectively is at odds with basic physics and mathematical models.

It's a belief

Nothing more

Nothing less

[lone flame]

same situation

[sleek lily]

An experience is an experience. Math and physics are a bit different than "I feel like this is the case so this is the case"

[lone flame]

maybe u don't understand the Math and Physics behind that topic

[sleek lily]

Maybe, but that's the great thing about real science. If I don't, you can dispute it

[lone flame]

already told everything to end this

[sleek lily]

And you can dispute it with those same mathematical and physical properties

Because math and physics happen to be universal

[lone flame]

i suck at math tbh

[ionic storm]

i'm about to um actually you so hard but what people commonly accept the dunning-kruger study is about isn't what it's actually about lmao

it's not the mount stupid peak or whatever

[lean grove]

Soy beta psychology male detected.

[lone flame]

never said that dunning kruger is = stupid or so

[ionic storm]

there's a whole rabbit hole to this fucking study

[ionic storm]

premed AND psych thank you

[lone flame]

Dunning Kruger in short is more likely.
A person that thinks he know what he talks about and thinks he is in the right. and thinks that others are in the wrong

but is in the wrong

[ionic storm]

that's just false (unbased) confidence

which is still true

esp for biooc

but not dunning-kruger

[sleek lily]

I think I understand the field I study.

[lone flame]

maybe. maybe not

applies to everyone

[ionic storm]

not me

[sleek lily]

Sure, then demonstrate so with math and physics. They're universal.

[ionic storm]

i'm far too humble to fall for such psychological fallacies

[sleek lily]

You can even use simulators to demonstrate so if you lack the knowledge to model these things in other terms

[lone flame]

tbh.. its possible that our math/physics are wrong

[sleek lily]

Then prove so

Prove your model supercedes modern physics and math.

[ionic storm]

jesu christo will return tomorrow inshallah

prove all our math stupid

[sleek lily]

You can suck at math and still demonstrate things on a principle level using math and physics.

[ionic storm]

what about when god returns huh

and kills us all

what good are your principles then

[lone flame]

not even english. idk what words i should use to "explain" stuff

[sleek lily]

Then use a simulator

Use Lt spice

[lone flame]

[lone flame]

idk dafuq that is

friend of mine could read that

[ionic storm]

okay explain driver excursion and how it relates to supposed "microdynamics"

[ionic storm]

2 lights?

it's a 100 ohm resistor, a 1000 ohm resistor, npn fet

leading to a transistor

it's a switch

[lone flame]

yeah prob not hard to understand that

was bad in school tbh bcs im lazy af

[ionic storm]

i'm no ee

but i have fixed my fair share of gear

[lone flame]

ik. can be pretty easy to read if you know what symbols stands for what

[ionic storm]

sure

[sleek lily]

"As a driver moves from its neutral position it non linearly adds a pulling force from the diaphragm that acts against the magnetic push from the coil."

[lone flame]

wrong

[sleek lily]

What makes you say that's wrong?

[lone flame]

what about Planars?

[sleek lily]

The same applies to them

[lone flame]

they have a coil?

[ionic storm]

while there's no coil they effectively have the same thing with the traces and row magnets

it's about about difference in position from neutral

[sleek lily]

They have a tensioned diaphragm which pulls to a neutral position. This is working against the push away from neutral of the magnetic field through the trace/coil.

It's just hookes law

[lone flame]

im going to work bye

[ionic storm]

bye bye

[sleek lily]

This is actually why intermodulation measurements matter

It's just the audiophile way to explain an actual physical thing

With intermodulation measurements being another thing not covered by standard frequency response.

Another reason not to try to apply that overly simplified bad model as fact

[lean grove]

Bye bye

[wispy surge]

Whats the best Closed back, wired headphones for around £300 to £450? I currently have DT770's and want to upgrade

[sleek lily]

I love the senheiser hd265, but I honestly cant tell you its the best. Just something to maybe look into.

[lean grove]

What don't you like about the dt770s

[wispy surge]

Both sides of the plastic have cracked and I'v had them a couple of years so i was just looking to upgrade, I can 3D print replacment parts for the plastic but i was just woundering what my options would be to upgrade

[unique wind]

dan clark aeon closed x

audeze maxwell are good too but far less comfortable than the clarks

[lean grove]

Hmmm. Fiio ft-1 is the latest hotness in terms of closed backs. But with a bigger budget there might be more stuff.

Focal azurys is pretty decent.

[wispy surge]

I'll take a look, thanks

[sleek lily]

@lone flame here is a bode plot of why cables do not matter. the amount of impact form the linear doubling of load on the cable side has next to no impact in efficiency and literally no difference in a non linear sense.

to show you it as a visual representation of voltage at each point. This same concept can be represented mathematically using the voltage divider rule.

if you believe that current science is wrong but you believe you can't show so with your current math understanding, just use a program like lt spice or multisim and you will have access to a perfect environment to represent your theory.

[wispy surge]

3D printed the replacment parts and they are better then i thought so might last. When i took the origional plastic off the 4 pices have turn into 7 as its all cracked

[broken grotto]

Bro pulled out the multisim

[sleek lily]

It's really good for demonstrating simple concepts imo

Much more messy to use than Lt spice for actual projects though

[broken grotto]

Multisim is great, no doubt there.

I like LT spice, but ive been trying KiCad

[sleek lily]

Multisim also has the funny breadboard thing lol

I've used that a couple times

[broken grotto]

I have not lol

I will add that your approximation only really works for short run and low loss cables.

But I get the point

It doesn't matter so long as the cable is long, frequency too high, or you are moving real power.

[sleek lily]

Yea, point is just to demonstrate that realistically a cable should not impact any audible sound to any reasonable non linear value.

And the difference in power loss for audio cables should be pretty minimal in the context of headphones. You can only go so far with making a cable thicker to save power lol

[broken grotto]

Just important to mention those things, since in other cases it will matter.

You've nailed it though.

If you wanna have a lot of fun

Make the worst headphone/speaker amp you've ever seen with discrete components

[granite summit]

You guys think this would be worth it price? I dont need a dac since i already got one

[zenith pawn]

Oh, thought it would've been different

It didn't really look like the same tjing

[lone flame]

They don't matter yes... But they can have a difference

Like I showed you in the measurements up there

[zenith pawn]

he is showing where they have no perceptible difference

[sleek lily]

Unless you're purposefully adding an inductor or capacitor in the cable, there going to be just about entirely resistive, so their only impact on sound will be linear, as a voltage divider. The amount of voltage drop across a cable it about 0, so even that is a non factor.

It's easy to calculate too

Vin*(Rx/Rt) with Vin being the voltage at the amp, Rx being the resistance of the cable, and Rt being the resistance of the cable plus the resistance of the headphone or speaker.

It's actually a rule you learn in intro DC, and I'd imagine if your school offers any electronics classes, you'll learn it there too.

[sleek lily]

@lone flame I want you to calculate for a... let's say 20 ohm headphone, how voltage is lost between a cable that lets say is 0.2 ohms each way (we will just use 0.4ohms total), vs the amount of voltage lost for a cable that is literally half as resistive, at 0.1 ohms each way (we will represent it as 0.2 ohms). For the Vs, we will assume it is a flat 1V_RMS. Just plug those values in and you'll quickly realize this is more objective and less up for debate than you think.

[timid echo]

someone i know needs headphones + a mic for a 100 euro budget, can anyone recommend any to get

[sleek lily]

@lone flame I know it's not much, but this is a pretty useful resource. It's the equations page I used when I was in intro. Most of these equations are really easy to use and apply.

[broken grotto]

@lone flame

[broken grotto]

Even if there's a measurable difference, it's basically negligible. the difference is like 0.1dB, which is basically nothing; Unless you start to deal with transmission line theory, the cable length approaching a significant portion of the wavelength as an example, it isn't that big of a deal.

when you begin to approach those, then reflections, impedance matching, reflection and such become a concern; but for most headphone cables? meh. the wavelengths are kilometers long, so get back to me when you have a cable that long lol

[broken grotto]

The diameter of a cable affects resistance, and resistance is only one part of impedance. Thicker cables have lower resistance, which makes them better for longer distance runs. Impedance, though, includes the following: Z = R + jX where R is the resistance (affected by diameter, length, and material), and X is the reactance, which is the capacitive or inductive element of the cable.

for a cable like you'd find in audio, the impedance consists of the inductance and capacitance per unit length, which is determined by things like conductor spacing and insulation. Audio is generally considered low-frequency, the resistance dominates; reactive components are negligible; this is why we can approximate a cable as a purely resistive element. The only time we'd concern ourselves with the reactive element is when the cable runs are very long, or we're dealing with MHz+.

[broken grotto]

I don't see maxwell's equations. how do i live without Maxwell?

[sleek lily]

Yea, I think in the audio space a lot of people assume impedance is just resistance. Tbf, in the context of cables the reactance is negligible

I think I had Maxwell's equations just on a random page and never moved it to the main equations page lol

Unfortunately I have a lot of things I probably should move to that equations page that ended up on other equations pages

[noble axle]

this channel just reminded me that i have a 7hour lecture on AC current tomorrow, thanks

[sleek lily]

7 hours?

That's kinda wild

[noble axle]

the funny

[noble axle]

also parallel is drawn like this

and voltage is E

[sleek lily]

You can denote the variables however you want

[broken grotto]

Both are valid. E and V are both used.

Both paralell drawings are also valid.

[sleek lily]

As long as the resistors are connecting at both ends they're a good representation of parallel resistors

Main thing with parallel is the nodes of contact

[noble axle]

they lied to me then ;-;

[broken grotto]

When you get into complex circuitry, you start to see some wild stuff.

[sleek lily]

No, they're just simplifying it for you.

[noble axle]

a

[sleek lily]

Which is fair

[noble axle]

so far ive only done series parallel series/parallel voltage spitters magnets inductors and conductors

[sleek lily]

But if you wanted to you could denote things in whatever way you want. I had to write little warnings on test back in linear circuits for my professor because I liked to denote power in watts as P_r instead of power in VAR which he liked to denote as P_r

[broken grotto]

I can normally figure that out

Some students are kind of insane with their variables lmao

[sleek lily]

Yea, he was an amazing professor. He probably didn't need the warning. I just always left it as a nice way to avoid confusion and make grading my work easier.

[broken grotto]

I teach Emag.... so i get to absolutely obliterate students' confidence

You thought you knew physics 2, HUH!?

[sleek lily]

I would absolutely love to one-day actually teach as a professor.

[noble axle]

how deep does magnatism actually go? the lecture i got on it was like 4 hours

[sleek lily]

I feel like it'd be incredibly fulfilling just knowing that you're helping teach and improve the next generation of engineers. I have an insane level of respect for you for doing that! @broken grotto

[broken grotto]

Its literally the foundation of everything.

Anything you ever do

Every equation

Every single amp

Is Emag

[noble axle]

i assume because mlof do funny thing and make atom sticky?

i failed my 2nd be test btw im like strugling to comprehend this stuff

[broken grotto]

I keep somewhat quiet around, but sometimes I just need to jump in lmao

[broken grotto]

Second test of Emag?

[noble axle]

basic electricity, emag is covered in it

[broken grotto]

Well, i don't know your schools layout

What is covered in "basic electricity?"

[noble axle]

currently ive gone through these within 2 weeks and its about a 7 week topic

[sleek lily]

@broken grotto do you ever check rate my professor to laugh at some of the reviews people leave? I've seen some absolute idiots leave the most telling negative reviews on great professors lol

[broken grotto]

So, typically in Emag you begin with the basics, like a point charge, Gauss's law, stuff like that.

[lone flame]

I know that it's mostly like 99.999% irrelevant what cable you use

Just mentioned that if you design a cable to... It CAN have an impact

[sleek lily]

Yes, but most cables are designed to just be a wire. Very rarely do you see filter cables in the headphone space.

[broken grotto]

If you need help with circuit theory and stuff, @noble axle, you're more than welcome to reach out at some point.

[lone flame]

Yeah. And if the headphone as example is ultra low impedance etc also worth to mention

Maybe there Will be systems like HE1 where the cable does coloration too someday

[sleek lily]

There are plenty of filter cables, they're just not common

[broken grotto]

Can you tell me why? (I want you to tell me.)

[lone flame]

All I did was mentioning cables that can affect sound.

Not that I care about cables. If I get a cable it's only bcs of length, look, feel and connection and mostly bcs i like custom cables

But not a tiny bit for sound

Bcs it's just a cable lol

[noble axle]

aight, sorry if i was being too vague i cant actually take any of my work out of the building i do it in

[lone flame]

Have to scroll up quite far and search the message and I'm on my phone, just came back from a 10hr night shift. So I'm lazy and don't wanna find it right now

[broken grotto]

Its all good I just think we are on different wavelengths. (Ha..hahaha...)

[broken grotto]

I was testing if you knew why the load impedance matters.

[lone flame]

I know that high impedance can cause coloration (boosting or lowering Frequencies if the impedance curve isn't linear*

The "golden" rule was like. Your transducer should have 8x more Impefance than the imoedance of the AMP output

And cable if you wanna count that 0.01 Ohm in

With a linear impedance curve it would cause a drop in total volume

But why? Idk xD

[broken grotto]

I belive you mentioned above a frequency response where the transducer was 1 ohm.

[lone flame]

Yeah that raal thing or so. Where the cable indeed had 6db more volume + a dip in upper treble

[broken grotto]

If you want, armed with the power of Google and math, try to figure out why that is.

[lone flame]

But like... Find a 1 Ohm transducer for headphones or IEMs

[lone flame]

I ask ChatGPT

Bcs i hate it when people cannot break down stuff

[broken grotto]

But if I just tell you in a passing discord chat, would you really remember?

[lone flame]

And chat got can do that quite good even tho the output is uhh. Not that accurate

[lone flame]

Actually prob yes

[sleek lily]

Tbh, chat gpt is kinda special when it comes to electrical. It also sucks at linear algebra lol

[lone flame]

That's how I learned most stuff. By just asking people who knows stuff. And They broke it down. It made sense. So bcs it made sense I asked if that and that would be like that. And then "yes" or "yes but" or "no because"

So it was just straight answers without 2000 words assay to my qeustions

[lone flame]

Yeah ik that chat got is weird sometimes

Luckly it only gets better

Ok well that a curse too. People will lose the skill to deep search and use Google. + thinking Will be irrelevant cuz just ask AI

[broken grotto]

I encourage the use of AI for emag because you'll learn more fixing its mistakes.

Its awful lmao

[sleek lily]

@lone flame To help you out, start by looking into series circuit rules. You'll learn a lot and it relates to the question.

[lone flame]

Well yeah. But don't really wanna learn a whole electrical engineer sht to answer my. Question

Bcs the other stuff.... Idc

[sleek lily]

Only thing I really use it for is finding punctuation errors and blatant issues with my spelling when I'm writing late night lab reports

[sleek lily]

It's very useful, even if you don't want to be an electrical engineer.

Just having that knowledge puts you ahead of a lot of other people you will interact with.

[broken grotto]

If anything, stuff like that teaches you to break down complex problems

[sleek lily]

^

[broken grotto]

90% of EE degrees teach you problem solving with Maxwell's equations mixed in.

< 3 Maxwell

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/maxwell-cat-gif-10523016553059324224

[broken grotto]

But, if you end up with ChatGPT's answer, feel free to ping me

I'll happily look over it, so long as you get to learn something.

[lone flame]

Ok so chat got said it like that

[broken grotto]

You stumbled across a fairly interesting (i think, anyway) thing.

[noble axle]

welp hopefully i can come back tomorrow night knowing the concepts of this chat log i need to wake up in 4 hours

[lone flame]

If the output impedance is high and the transducer impedance low. It will cause that (bcs most transducer have a non linear impedance curve) that different frequencies gets a different "current" or "voltage" that's why some stuff is boosted or damped

Haven't told my why tho lol

Idk if that is just the physics with no real reason than bcs it's like that lol

[broken grotto]

Nope. There's a reason.

[lone flame]

Says something about "Voltage devider" idc the English word

So if the impedance are pretty "close" it gives to much power to treble or lows. Depending on the impedance curve of the transducer

[noble axle]

also stepping away from electricity a little bit, meze 105 aer's are very nice

i as a random individual on the internet would recommend them

[lone flame]

Yeah 105aer are nice

[sleek lily]

They're also a work of art

Meze could literally make a headphone that doesn't make any sound and it'd be worth having just for the aesthetic

They do an amazing job

[sinful inlet]

what are some good earbuds for like gym and phone use for under 100?

for reference i guess the airpod pros i tried didnt really fit in my ear that well with the smallest tips on them and id also prefer something that came in black

[left verge]

@vestal meadow Due to certain circumstances, I can't get the Fiios for $130
Could it be possible to get these for $100 (without tax and or shipping)
The problem is that even though I am over 18, I still have to ask my parents for permission to buy something, since I am not allowed to have a credit card
I'm looking at other places other than ebay, but idk which site to trust

[sleek lily]

Don't put things on credit cards if you're able to. My sister fell down this trap and she's now thousands in debt while not making enough to ever pay it down and is pretty effectively ruining her own life.

Your parents are looking out for you there.

If your parents are helping you out now, take advantage of it and use it as a jumping off point to get ahead. Mine kinda just kicked me out when I turned 18 and the other made me basically take over their rent to move in. Glad I'm out of all that and fully independent now, but I would give anything to start off with a supporting family out of highschool.

[left verge]

Thats a fair point
But how would I pay it? Can't use my debit
Don't think you can use checks

[sleek lily]

You'd have to use either a visa prepaid card or debit in that case, but it's better than using credit.

[left verge]

"Helping out" is a sentence I wish was true

[zenith pawn]

using credit is fine as long as you pay it back

[left verge]

I can't even do that
All I can use is prepaid cards that were given to me, that's it

[left verge]

I didn't want to say that, to sound rude

[zenith pawn]

oh, i was responding to what biooc said

[glad creek]

Same here, though they did educate me well when it comes to money and I'm grateful for that

I know people in the same situation as your sister (sister of a friend)

[broken grotto]

Well, let's go back to basic circuits.

Examine the circuit using Maxwell's equations and basic circuit theory, and we have a few things to consider.

• Ohm's Law : V=IR,
• Power: P = V²/R,
• And the electric fields. Current in a conductor causes magnetic fields, and a voltage differential creates electric fields. Inductance and Capacitance.

This is where we get our impedance,
Z(f) = R + jwL + (1 / jwC)
ive denoted w as 2×pi×(frequency).

In audio, w is small, so the inductance and Capacitance are negligible and R dominates. The cable is a single resistor.

Now let's say that the transducer is 4 Ohms. If the cable resistance is 0.4 Ohms, then the cable resistance is 10% of the load. Higher voltage drop. The wire now matters. Lower impedance allows for higher current, which creates higher magnetic fields, and in turn a higher voltage drop across the now non-ideal conductor.

this is perceived as the 6 db drop.

The cable is dropping a significant amount of voltage.

[zenith pawn]

"cable is a single resistor" fans when I carefully coil my cable into a very tight stack of loops

[vestal meadow]

I have purchased from eBay as well if you check for items which are buy now you can use debit cards to get it from eBay. Other options would likely be checking places like newegg and what not(I am not from NA so don't know what all options you have)

[lone flame]

and wtf is "w" now?

or in the equaiton atleast?

it says "jwL"

[lean grove]

ω is the symbol used to describe frequency of the AC electricity going through the circuit.

[lone flame]

and jwL?

and jwC?

[lean grove]

You should get some Khan academy lessons in. What you want to find is "intro to RLC circuits."

Jwl is the impedance from inductance. As the frequency goes higher, the impedance grows.
You can see this on speaker drivers

Inductors are basically low pass filters.

The 1/(jwc) is the impedance due to capacitance. As the frequency lowers, the impedance gets higher. Capacitors are high pass filters.

If you don't care about math you can ignore the j part. It's imaginary.

[sleek lily]

I wouldn't say ignore the j part. It represents a 90 degree phase difference

If you only want to focus on amplitude there is an amplitude focused impedance formula

[broken grotto]

Thats my friend you're talking about ):

Yes, j is imaginary but as @sleek lily states it represents a 90 degree phase shift.

You can remember the phrase "ELI the ICE man," to remember what the j is actually doing.

[sleek lily]

Eli and ice carried me through phasors 😭

[broken grotto]

A speaker is just an inductor. Thats why at high frequencies they tend to fly off to nowhere.

But there is capacitance, as well.

We just dont normally concern ourselves too much with it.

I had a thing... let me try to find it.

[sleek lily]

I also usually when explaining j avoid calling it imaginary because some people have a tendency to think that means fake or doesn't matter and really just don't get it means another axis.

[lean grove]

The 90 degree phase shift also doesn't matter if you don't care about the math.

Like idk how I can make that more clear for you.

[lone flame]

all i wanted to know is. Why exactly it boosts frequencies

not a whole ass Harvard decade of idk what

like i said earlier... I hate it when its not broken down

and i hate it when stuff is like 20 pages full of idk what

[sleek lily]

Because reactance is frequency dependent and at a certain point you have minimal reactance from capacitive or inductive reactance

[lone flame]

and now for someone who knows sht in stuff

without these EE terms etc

[broken grotto]

If all you care about is the resistive voltage drop and overall amplitude, fine. It doesnt matter.

Its not abstract math. Its real world behavior.

[sleek lily]

Reactance you can think of like the portion of impedance that is made up of stored energy through reactance and capacitance

I could probably word it better

[warm scarab]

u u u a i u u u a i

[sleek lily]

They do. That voltage and current still exist, just not in phase with the input signal.

[lean grove]

I know. I took the classes too.
But for the sake of explaining this to someone who is actively hostile to math I think we can easily reduce it down to some basic relationships and ignore the scary monsters underneath the bed.

[warm scarab]

u u u a i u u u u a i

[warm scarab]

jvc <3

i know this one guy called jvcguy

you'd love him

@quiet ice

[sleek lily]

If you want just the amplitude impedance formula, it should off memory be something like |Z|=√((R^2)+(XL-Xc)^2) @lone flame With R being resistance, X being reactance, XL being the portion of reactance from inductance, and XC being the portion from capacitance. Z is the actual impedance.

[broken grotto]

Do they teach you the phasor triangle?

[sleek lily]

Yea, I actually love phasors

They're amazing for visualizing

[green marsh]

"hostile to math" 😭

[broken grotto]

Cant imagine electrical without math ):

I love math.

[green marsh]

i love math

[sleek lily]

I think most people who hate math hate it because bad highschool teachers

[green marsh]

as long as it stays at calc 1 or below

start doing integrals and i start hating it

[sleek lily]

Every college math professor I've had has been amazing

[warm scarab]

most people hate most subjects due to bad teachers

[lone flame]

bro

i said like 20 times im sht at math

[sleek lily]

You just plug in values

[lone flame]

all i want is an explanation, not an equasion

[sleek lily]

You need the equation to understand the concept

[lone flame]

pretty sure i don't

[sleek lily]

Notice how we have XL-Xc

[lone flame]

"If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself"

Albert Einstein's Quote

[sleek lily]

There is going to be a frequency where those two values become equal. At that point we have our lowest resistance, as the resistance becomes purely resistive.

So let's say we have at 1khz and XL of 10 ohms and an Xc of 10 ohms. We now have 0 in that portion of the equation.

[lone flame]

but what if like the speakers impedance is lower in total than the AMPs output impedance

idk what XL and Xc is

[sleek lily]

It's reactance

The portion of impedance from your inductance and capacitance

[lone flame]

try to do that. explain it that a kid would understand

so no math

[sleek lily]

So not quite resistance as it's storing charge rather than becoming heat

But it acts sort of like resistance

[lone flame]

so

what?

[sleek lily]

@lone flame Would you expect us to have more or less impedance at that point

[lone flame]

at what?

[sleek lily]

The point where our reactance form the capacitance and inductance are equal

[lone flame]

like on impedance curves. well you ofently have a buildup in the treble and somewhere a peak at lower frequencies where the impedance is pretty high

and other frequencies are mostly low compared to these 2

[sleek lily]

You would expect to have the least impedance at the frequency where XL and Xc are equal @lone flame

[lone flame]

XL Xc

[sleek lily]

So would you expect to have more current or less current at this point

[lone flame]

this is easy to understand

[lean grove]

Now ask it to explain it like a pirate

[vagrant tinsel]

where did you get your education on this subject

i wanna avoid this institution

[warm scarab]

now explain it like you have a lethal injection of fenthanyl in your bloodstream

[lone flame]

YES

explain it so that an intensly high person would understand it

[vagrant tinsel]

just gotta walk out of my apartment to hear that, thats boring ☹️

[warm scarab]

🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸

🦅

[vagrant tinsel]

please dont slander america

[sleek lily]

If you can explain it to @lone flame Better then be my guest

[vagrant tinsel]

all of it is directed to the bay

[lone flame]

no healthcare?

https://tenor.com/view/megamind-gif-26070434

[vagrant tinsel]

we have healthcare

question is if you can afford it!

aha!

[lone flame]

heard a story where a guy had healthcare, still had to pay 700K bcs healthcare said "nah to expensive" or so xD

[lone flame]

in Europe you mostly have Healthcare by LAW

i was once 5 days in hospital, several testst

guess how much i paid

fcking 50€ bcs it was 10€ a day for food

[vagrant tinsel]

lucky...

[lone flame]

borders are open. You are free to come 😄

[vagrant tinsel]

i cried when i saw my medical bill in taiwan

i was tryna avoid going to the hospital when i dislocated my ankle

turns out whoel treatment was 100 bucks!

live laugh taiwan

[lone flame]

yeah

USA probably the only country in the world where people would run away from ambulances with probably freshly lost limbs

[vagrant tinsel]

its that american independence!

sew that leg back on urself!

[warm scarab]

i dont think they do that

healthcare services are obliged to save your life

they just put it on a tab

[vagrant tinsel]

ru american?

[lean grove]

Worse

[vagrant tinsel]

ew....

canadian....

[warm scarab]

no

[vagrant tinsel]

ah...

we have this concept

a uber is much cheaper than an ambulance 🙂

[broken grotto]

Walk it off

Just a flesh wound

[vagrant tinsel]

amen

[broken grotto]

I know people who've driven themselves to the hospital

Because an ambulance is too expensive

Just going to the ER can cost me $500, before any treatment.

[vagrant tinsel]

their companies! what obligations do they have 🙂

[sleek lily]

I just don't go to hospitals

😭

[left verge]

I can't do that either
If i spend the $130 on them, they will ground me for like a month for that
And it's happened plently of times

[sleek lily]

hifiman is apparently out of edition x v2

so im gonna see if I can get them to send me a v1 or an arya instead

but if not im going to just demand a refund

[broken grotto]

....did you just talk to your parents about it?

Honest question

Its only $30 over your budget, just ask and explain if prompted.

They might say no, but you asked.

[left verge]

Oh I told them that
They didn't like how the earcups were made of wood, should be made from plastic

[warm scarab]

what

[left verge]

Uh huh

[warm scarab]

but like

wood is an obviously more expensive material

and thats not entirely wood anyways

[left verge]

Also said the build quality was "too good", again plastic

[warm scarab]

why is build being too good an issue

[left verge]

Idk dude
They think that 30-50usd headphones are the best

"Headphones don't need to be made out of wood and metal, just make them plastic"

[warm scarab]

i think they just dont want you to spend 130$ lol

sounds like an excuse

[left verge]

They looked at them and pointed out every single thing and said it should just be black and plastic
Like what
I'm fine with spending $130

[warm scarab]

they dont want you to spend the money

[left verge]

One of my friends just got some new headphones, they were like $600 in total
That's just too much for me

[left verge]

I did see some yesterday go for $110, so maybe?

[sleek lily]

honestly, I still like he560v4 more than edition xs

but edition xs does really good with presentation

very wide and open sounding

[warm scarab]

give it more time

[broken grotto]

I

have a very hard time believing all that.

even then, you can totally buy headphones for ~$100. Which ones? I won't answer because someone somewhere will flame me for something or other so

at $100, i'd probably buy IEM's anyway

but if there's some reason you cannot use IEM's and must buy headphones, then idk man moondrop edge, moondrop joker, those audio technica ones

they all probably suck, someone will say, but they're in the budget.

I have the moondrop edge, they're... fine.

for like, $89 wireless ANC headphones, totally passable.

but I am a regular user of the Focal Bathys, because I decided to skip rent to buy them.

[left verge]

1. I understand if you don't believe me. It sounds comical, but's it's not
2. I can't use IEMs at all, i should've said that

[stone quartz]

Is class A amplification a gimmick?

[broken grotto]

I just can't fathom anyone arguing that things should be made with more plastic, is all.

either the other person was right and they just don't want you to spend the money, or something else be afoot.

[broken grotto]

in what way?

[warm scarab]

im saying

his parents just dont want him spending money

there is no way someone looks at an object and says "the materials in this are too expensive, get a plastic one instead"

i mean to be fair i would say that for something that is too cheap to be true but this is 130$ and its just a small piece of metal and wood plating on back end of a small headphone

[stone quartz]

Do they actually sound that much better than AB, D, H, etc?

[broken grotto]

Any amp can be good if its implemented well.

Class A's just have low crossover distortion

But they consume much more power.

[sleek lily]

^

You're weighing a lot of different inherently design pros and cons and how willing you are to work around the issues exherently. It comes more down to the individual design

So it's hard to say class A is the best or class D is the best etc

[green marsh]

class a is best at heating your room

perfect for anyone living in a hot and humid environment

[left verge]

I'm not even kidding, that's what they actually said
I think my brain BSODed itself when they said that lol

[left verge]

Or they are trying to make me lose my mind
What's funny is that they came up to me this morning and changed that to 65usd, no more $100

[median birch]

What do you guys think about sonos arc + 300 era setup

[quiet ice]

whats up

[warm scarab]

this guy was talking about jvc man

[quiet ice]

oh sick

[warm scarab]

I needed you for an appearance

but its fine man

hope you are doing good

[quiet ice]

my bad

I am late

[warm scarab]

no dude it was him that was early

ur never late

[quiet ice]

lmfao

[warm scarab]

@lean grove hello gay i have a question for you

hello nils hello

[lean grove]

https://tenor.com/view/door-gif-9620308794300103693

[warm scarab]

do you know like a readily available bt module that you can just input audio to and it becomes a discoverable wireless microphone device

im planning on making a gypsie modmic antlion

because they are evil and I am better

[noble axle]

im not going to read all that for context but if looking for a good pair of headphones for 130~ usd the only companies i know of at that price with something halfway decent are audio technica and grado, the latter also has good customer service

[warm scarab]

technica and grado

anyways

[lean grove]

you're planning on putting recording devices in the women's bathroom again arent you

[warm scarab]

no I swear it was a one time thing

and bt is pretty bad for those so I wont use that for it again

[lean grove]

no i dont know. i think modmic specifically had this problem and they had to wire the bluetooth in reverse or something.

[warm scarab]

interesting

[lean grove]

im sure there are people who have done diy bluetooth mics before

[warm scarab]

if there was a good wireless way of delivering audio id do it

I don't really care about the protocol

[noble axle]

i forgot about akg mb

[warm scarab]

thought of radiowaves but

too fucky

[lean grove]

https://youtu.be/X-xMeL6YO4k

[warm scarab]

please one without an indian accent

thanks

[lean grove]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man2-spider-man-j-jonah-jameson-tobey-maguire-peter-parker-gif-26416399

[warm scarab]

man I bet this sounds pretty shit maybe I should go for a dongle or somethingh

i dont want to fuck with codecs im not a programmer

[lean grove]

its 2025 you dont have to be a programmer

[warm scarab]

true

chatgpt

but it kinda sucks

[lean grove]

better than you are

[warm scarab]

low bar and it doesnt make it good

[lone flame]

KSC75, Porta Pro, HE400se if new

[lone flame]

If BT. Ugreen Hitune Max5c and what you said 🙂

[zenith pawn]

what type of driver do the ksc75 have?

[vagrant tinsel]

sound drivers

[hidden moon]

https://www.fiio.com/dm13
Anyone seen this?
I'm not sure how good Fiio stuff is, but I kinda want one.

[broken grotto]

Fiio's great

[hidden moon]

Would you ever get the DM13?

[red quest]

@stuck bolt mind helping

i have an idea but idk if it will works

work*

i have 2 3" speakers & i want to turn one into a sub speaker

is it possible to like convert them?

[broken grotto]

I dont use CD's.

But if i did, I'd buy the fiio one ye

Ive had good luck with FiiO

[stuck bolt]

Not
Really

[hidden moon]

Oh, well I buy all my music on CD.
My collection proves it.

[broken grotto]

Yeah, I mean, I have a large amount of FiiO stuff, from DAP to headphones, and I've never been particularly disappointed

The price tends to be right imo

[hidden moon]

I like the Japanese brands like Sony and Panasonic.
Their stuff is really good.

[sleek lily]

Took some measurements of my fiance's liquid spark today

[sleek lily]

Next to the same measurements on my ragnarok

[vagrant tinsel]

what does this mean

[lone flame]

apparently like "CSD"

so the behaviour of a permaent frequency load and not of a single fast sine swep etc

so like if you have music that the amp behaves differently with the load or so and that can cause sound differences even tho FR is looks the same

[sleek lily]

An oscilloscope is a super precise device for measuring amplitude and time domain behaviors in a much more visual and precise way than most tools would

[vagrant tinsel]

i very much know what a osciliscope is

but what are you trying to show

[sleek lily]

The difference in behavior between the two amps

The liquid spark has a massive amount of overshoot while the Ragnarok instead has a more smooth transition to that DC load, but is much more bandwidth limited

[vagrant tinsel]

bandwidth limited?

[vagrant tinsel]

do you know what causes the overshoot?

[sleek lily]

Probably too low of a feedback resistance tbh

[vagrant tinsel]

wouldnt this be inductive?

[sleek lily]

You could have overshoot from inductance, but I don't think that's what's going on here, but it's not impossible.

[vagrant tinsel]

yep that makes sense

[sleek lily]

I'd have to take the amp apart and do some circuit analysis to identify the actual cause of the overshoot with complete certainty

Unfortunately they don't post schematics for the amp afaik

[vagrant tinsel]

you know why the overshoot has to exist right?

[sleek lily]

You can design an amp with a higher output filter capacitance to avoid it

That's probably what the Ragnarok did

[vagrant tinsel]

so a lowpass filter

[sleek lily]

Yep

But most audio amps have more of a band pass with an inductive and capacitive element, with the capacitive element blocking lower frequencies that aren't desired and inductor blocking higher frequencies.

[vagrant tinsel]

sure

that would make sense

[broken grotto]

Repeat that step response at 1 kHz and 5 kHz

Measure the ringing frequency, too.

[sleek lily]

I'll probably run more test later, but for now I have my oscilloscope moved back to my bench

I should be getting a new scope soon though

One that is actually decent lol

[broken grotto]

Ye, we can do a full beans analysis way

I have my suspensions about that amp looking at those tests

[sleek lily]

The overshoot was pretty bad. If it is just related to an under dampened feedback, I might just modify it later on, but tbf, my fiance doesn't care enough about audio to notice lol

The amp also has a really small range of input voltage it tolerates before shutting off

[vagrant tinsel]

if im understanding it properly thats beyond the range of human hearing

[sleek lily]

It is

It'd just be nice to fix

For fun

Like a personal project

[vagrant tinsel]

yea sure

might be a bit hard atp lol

[left verge]

Has anyone seen worse than this?

[warm scarab]

yes

delta airline buds

[left verge]

Without an EQ it's pretty bad

[green marsh]

it doesnt look that bad if their target has a bass shelf

[zenith pawn]

That's a pretty beefy graph scale

[lean grove]

Normalized to an unknown target.

Could literally be anything

[left verge]

I did see a more in depth review from RT

[zenith pawn]

look at the raw frequency response

[green marsh]

what headphone is this 💀

[lean grove]

Maybe we are supposed to guess

[unique wind]

looks like a sennheiser

[left verge]

It's a turtle beach i got 7 years ago
Curious on what it scored

[cedar quarry]

Whats better the soundcore 2 or the monster mfs1

[lean grove]

Why those two?

[cedar quarry]

because they're in my price range and its the only ones i really looked at

[lean grove]

Neat

[cedar quarry]

so which one is better?

[lean grove]

Idk man I wouldn't buy either.

[cedar quarry]

Why nor

[lean grove]

Monster is a cash grab audio brand where their name is their only real asset and Anker is a budget gadget brand that happens to make audio devices.

I don't trust either of them to make anything decent but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[autumn cairn]

Hey guys i have a question, is there any reason for my goXLR to start stuttering with sound output?

[warm scarab]

buffer size

maybe idk

[cedar quarry]

So none of monsters stuff is any good?

[lone flame]

quite a nice bass shelf

[lone flame]

.

that's the target

[zenith pawn]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1266535437967691826/1403592125349625986/IMG_0538.png?ex=68981c88&is=6896cb08&hm=4849f27653136c43c251da7809b082678f6ee681e989cda731783e3e291fc6b0&

[zenith pawn]

https://www.rxddit.com/r/headphones/comments/1mleq4z/new_headphones_sound_like_im_in_a_garage/

reddit is a goldmine but i dont wanna spam like 50 posts

[wheat moss]

I have a feeling OP was gaming in a garage.. /s

[zenith pawn]

ok actually ill share one more that i thought was funny

https://www.rxddit.com/r/headphones/comments/1ml2e81/is_this_okay/

[granite drum]

LOL i have my eq set to this , no joke i reallydo\

ow and

[warm scarab]

reported for promoting self harm

[granite drum]

me? lol , its the inverse , i have big speakers but the bass speakers only start working from 20% of max volume wich is to loud for my appartment most of the time, so i play at 5% of what they can do but boost the bass so i the song sounds normal lol

verry harmfull yes ..

My speakers..

[warm scarab]

phone db meter

bro 😭

[granite drum]

(srry if that wasnt meant for me) but damn , do i dont like people that don't have a clue what they are looking at , or have any point of reference to substantioate their claims,... damn , and well that phone db meter isnt oaked officially however its set so if on a party my phone sais its not to loud , when the inspection or the police measures , its also not to loud ,... since we dont like fines

eq != volume level ,.. so how on earth do you connect it to harm ?

[warm scarab]

what is the phone mic zeroed to?

[warm scarab]

I know

yeah

[granite drum]

even if the volume level on the thing is maxed out, there is a -6db limiter in the chain,.. not that that mattes , since both my DAC and my amp have volume knobs so unless i have set them all to max ,.. then still there is no reference to how loud im playing and if its harmfull or not

[warm scarab]

-6dB preamp for 12dB boost?

humbling

[granite drum]

no the -6db is to leave headroom before i go to my dac so if an allarm or notification goes its 6db louder than the music im playing

and also -24db on the eq ....

so +12 on -24 is still -12 db for the bass and -24 for the rest of the music ,... , tha then gets a -6db ceiling applied to it

[zenith pawn]

if you use the niosh SLM app on an iphone then i think it should be pretty decently calibrated

for android i think there isnt really a solution without just zeroing it yourself

i tried several apps on my pixel 8 and they were like 10-15 dB off

[granite drum]

if i were to tell everyone that they reeally should go to Syndicate party in germany , its in the Westfalenhallen , and as one of the verry few indoor venues , they dont have any db limits at all, when i went they had put up a 185KW audio installation... wich is more then what you would use at a metallica concert for a festival or so , but then put inside , loudest party ever , no contest ...
was it harmfull? it was sponsored by a brand of earplugs and you got like semi proffessional plugs for free at the entrance ,... , on the other hand while your ears were safe , if you walked anywhere in line of the speakers , yourbalance was affected and it felt like if you werent waring any clothes becaue of the vibrations, and you felt the bass pushing lungs and chest so :)also dont watch if your sensitive to flashing images, as its none stop basicly ... : and enjoy 🙂

[granite drum]

true but if your at a party sometime and they have one that is officially oaked , you can see what that one sais and use it to zero your phone withiun a 3db range give or take

[zenith pawn]

i guess that counts as "zeroing it yourself"

[granite drum]

(depends on the music and what the mic of your phone can and cannot register of filters out aswell

[zenith pawn]

i should say calibrating, i dont think there's a zero involved there

[granite drum]

no gain reduction would be 0db , but once its out the speakers, that doesnt make much sense any more ,
and i say oaking as it sounded okay to me but apparently its not translated like that to english hehe my bad

bout sound the same in dutch 😄

[pallid wind]

I should have ordered the HD 620S yesterday. The price of them went above $300 today. And I ended up returning the FT1s I was using for a week or so.

[vagrant tinsel]

620 is ass

ft1s are the wya to go

[lean grove]

they isolate well.

wouldn't mind having them on plane.

[broken grotto]

when i first got my focal bathys i didn't really like them, but now I find myself using them more and more

[stuck bolt]

Guys, things have gotten so expensive

If I'm to build another set of speakers like what I've done before. Its gonna cost me twice as much

[pallid wind]

They look clean but they’re like $500

[broken grotto]

yes, that they are, i did buy them after all lol

[pallid wind]

I got two FT1s and both had the same issue

[warm scarab]

what was the issue?

[pallid wind]

left ear cup were making crackling sounds

[broken grotto]

I haven't actually used mine too much, so out of curiosity was that right away?

[pallid wind]

yeah it was making crackling sounds out the box

[cold edge]

My 14 year old definitive Pro Cinema 600 7.1 system just got a huge upgrade with a Denon AVR X1800H

[west chasm]

Im atm using my Audeze Max mic for gaming with friends, but im running into troubles with the microphone levels, and from what i can gather, there isnt much to do about it. SO... im looking to find a stand alone mic, tho i know nothing about them. Ive seen alot using the "RØDE" brand, but is there somethiong like "GO TO" when it comes to Mics?

[lone flame]

how much do you wanna spend?

[west chasm]

well.. i got alil help, and ive ordered the Shure MOTIV MV6

[noble axle]

they made me do vector math

andnow theyre making me do 3 phase which is actually not bad

[broken grotto]

I love vector math

[noble axle]

i dont remember any of the base equasions so its a bit of a struggle

[still gull]

This is as pretty much full bore. I could push it a little harder but I'd have to preprocess everything and I don't feel like doing that. Also it'd be painfully loud at that point.
The 600watts isn't all bass either, that's actually about 240 watts of mids and highs, you can tell by the lasery sounding bit, it jumps up on the mids and treble not just the bass. The PC takes some power too, but not that much as it's mostly idling.
My PC was at like 72/100
Receiver was at 70/74
Spotify was at one click from full volume.
I do it this way to give a little headroom so I get less distortion.
If I run everything full volume, I'd have to pull the bass back so that I don't blow out the woofers on the main speakers, and it would be really really really loud.

[lone flame]

Why?

[lone flame]

Au5 Closer is a nice song

God I played that song permanently when I played teeworlds

[west chasm]

i got it recommended because of its good sound and that apparently the MV7 and MV7+ are very very good, and the MV6 is a more budget friendly and USB friendly version of those

[lone flame]

Uh... Personally would have taken a cheaper mic

[warm scarab]

thats so overpriced lol

[west chasm]

honestly.. the only other thing you can buy here cheaper, is like a logitech ball mic..

[warm scarab]

fifine t669?

[west chasm]

cant buy here

[warm scarab]

you cant buy from aliexpress?

[lone flame]

Could name tons of cheaper mic setups tbh

Shure is expensive for no reason

[west chasm]

but stuff you can buy in denmark? the Shure seemed to have alot of good reviews

[lone flame]

Alot of good reviews doesn't mean that these are quality reviews

[west chasm]

thats true.. tried listening to like gaming journlas and youtube reviews, might be a steep price, but it seemed promising and the Shures seemed to be a very bought brand

[warm scarab]

im like 90% sure you can buy from aliexpress in denmark

shure is a very expensive brand not a specifically good one

[lone flame]

There is Thomann in germany

[warm scarab]

they have some good studio mics but their consumer items are just a scam

and some stuff like sm7b is also a 20$ mic that costs practically 400$

[west chasm]

but the MV6.. you think it sucks? or are you just mad at the price and the mic itself is actually pretty good

[warm scarab]

how much did you pay for it

[lone flame]

The mic isn't bad. But for the price.. There is cheaper competition

[warm scarab]

i dont know the danish market but

the msrp on that thing is ridiculous for an usb mic

that is in the xlr mic + audio interface cost levels while having none of the benefits

[lone flame]

Get cheap mic, EQ. Done

[west chasm]

msrp?

[lone flame]

Price at release by shure

[warm scarab]

manufacturer suggested retail price

[west chasm]

i do think its a good mic, and yes i could maybe get something thats good to at like 500 kr, but im alright with this, if its a good mic, like im gonna be happy with the quality.. but i would hate to have spend the 1000 kr on it for it so suck

[lone flame]

The SM7B as example doesn't suck. It's a nice mic. But for the money you can get cheaper mics that sound better for most use cases

[warm scarab]

you could pay like

1/3rd of the cost and get something thats kinda the same

which is the issue here

or pay the same cost and get something a lot better

[west chasm]

Røde NT-USB+ mikrofon

like this?

[warm scarab]

no

like behringer c1 and um2

rode is also an overpriced brand

[west chasm]

oh so your saying invest in Xlr stuff instead of the usb

[warm scarab]

yes

you have no reason to invest in usb above like 50$

[lone flame]

Vocaster one pls as interface

[warm scarab]

i dont know that interface

[lone flame]

Nah I paid ~4K€ into my mic stuff

No need to do that. You can do that way cheaper lol

[west chasm]

damn... i was so sure about this but... should i cancel it and get something else?

[warm scarab]

honestly

id just buy a t669 off of ali

just save your money

[west chasm]

ive used headsets mic for a while, and might use this at one point to do some music stuff to, so i do kinda want something good

[warm scarab]

if you want music stuff just go for xlr

dont tap into usb

you can get an interface, a condenser and a dynamic for the cost of this one mic lol

[west chasm]

do you have some of those in mind? cause im a complete ass at that market.. i know nothing about it

[warm scarab]

behringer um2, xm8500, c1

all from behringer

im not a fanboy its just a cheap company that does things very affordably

you can listen to sound demos of these two mics on the internet

[west chasm]

and you think that would soung way better than the MR6?

MV6

[warm scarab]

you cant do audio work with a usb mic

it doesn't have asio support or direct monitoring

you could get asio to work but i dont believe direct monitoring is an option

[west chasm]

okay okay. Thanks 😄

[warm scarab]

and having an additional item you can replace is always good, if your mic fails in an xlr setup you pay the cost of the mic, if your usb mic fails you rebuy the entire assembly

and vice versa with the audio interface

yakucho also recommended vocaster as an interface, ive never heard of it but maybe look into it