audio-tech

[green marsh]

except for a certain somebody i wont name

[warm scarab]

hello chat

this sucks go drink beer

[green marsh]

blame jackson and kvetinky

[warm scarab]

blame not drinking beer

[lone flame]

There are probably reasons why they do it 😄

[warm scarab]

fix it now

[green marsh]

the only channel i know that does this starts with an s and ends with an r

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/sonfys-nervios-gif-8896313124420390361

[warm scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/hampter-yogurt-slap-gif-25850311

[elder thistle]

it is more accurate to tell a primitive tribesmember running miles across a field that the earth is flat, because he doesnt have to worry about running back uphill or falling off the earth

[lone flame]

uh no

[warm scarab]

according to all laws of aviation there is no way a bee should be able to fly

its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground

[lone flame]

There is.
The wings are moving in a specific pattern that generates thrust 😄

[green marsh]

smh

[warm scarab]

this man has no soul

[green marsh]

bet he doesnt like jazz

[warm scarab]

we will send the task force to apprehend you at the closest time

[elder thistle]

our most useful understandings for an area of science we dont understand are practical ones

[livid ruin]

are you asking me about the displacement getting smaller with higher frequencies, uhh by resonances i mean the material gets saturated by frequencies and releases them over a span of a time, lower frequencies by nature tend to require more power to produce the same spl and resonate more than higher frequencies which is sometimes intended

[warm scarab]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/756176420841062451/1059903216646631614/catsitting.gif

[green marsh]

how bout you resonate with some bitches

[lone flame]

Ashuran..... no hate talk here
all in peace

[warm scarab]

according to the laws of acoustics there is no way an audiophile should be able to tell every quality of a headphone from its frequency response graph

[green marsh]

im just giving friendly advice

[lone flame]

FR doesn't show how it sounds on your head

[warm scarab]

dude yakucho

find a gun

use it

[lone flame]

no its illegal here. I dont have a gun license

[livid ruin]

i honestly haven’t slept well for 4 days, i almost said hours lol iudm could you point out what is aid wrong

[warm scarab]

i dont care make one

you can buy every part of a gun from aliexpress these days

just make the barrel

or smoothbore

i swear fake ass audiophiles pulling up on this channel

[livid ruin]

when i was also talking about dacs here i was sleep deprived and forgot for some reason they have amperage limit opsie

not great when that happens

[broken grotto]

nobody hates listening to music more than an audiophile

[warm scarab]

i became an audiophile because i hate music

[lone flame]

Audio Engineers

[warm scarab]

i want to hate it as accurately as possible

[livid ruin]

@lone flame did i say something wrong

[lone flame]

hm?

this CSD thing

[broken grotto]

i learned I wasn't an audiophile because the most fun part about buying headphones is listening to them and trying to tell the differences

and i think i've maybe disliked 2-3 pairs

[lone flame]

Nah

more likely you enjoy good sounding audio gear and enjoy listening to music with it

but there is no definition of "what is good"
Because all that matters is.
Like it 😄

[livid ruin]

like people say stuff like only fr is relevant for headphones and thd, csd, cstf isn’t

[lone flame]

THD is only relevant when its a problem

[lone flame]

#audio-tech message

[livid ruin]

yeah but resonances can be a problem too no?

[lone flame]

#audio-tech message or here if u wanna read the whole convo

[livid ruin]

thd and fr quite don’t catch those

[lone flame]

Resonance is visible in FR

THD is just distortion. And if you dont push your headphone it is inaudible

or atleast it should be inaudible

[livid ruin]

how, i mean fr is just a sum no?

[lone flame]

no it just shows how loud each frequency is

[livid ruin]

fr or 2d graph can show a sum or peaks no? not decay

[lone flame]

tbh.
If your headphone has a part that resonates that strong that it actually has a decay,
its a shitty design and you should get a new one

[livid ruin]

well i’m asking you guys i’ve been told csd matters and that it doesn’t matter, yes for most headphones decay isn’t an issue but there is once a while an exception

[lone flame]

if you notice a decay. something aint right

if you have open backs. Make sure that isnt Reverb of the room lol

when i listen to psytrance i hear room reverb when the kick hits

thats maybe something that others experience too and call it "CSD" or so

[livid ruin]

you don’t have to specifically notice decay i think for most people it would sound more like there is more of that frequency when it there are peaks in the audio you’re listening to

[lone flame]

well yeah.
Thats FR

You can hear peak even tho the measurement seems "smooth" at that range

There is HRTF diff,
Headphone behavior diff etc

so many factors that makes the headphone sound different on your ears

[livid ruin]

i meant smooth when it’s actually a peak

[lone flame]

this is a HD800s measuremet on some people

[lone flame]

if its a annoying thing. EQ it

and look if its still happening

on my EQ i have multiple Q's of 5 and one of 7

bcs peaky/dippy ahhh frequencies etc 😄

i EQ by ear nowadays and do not look on measurements

bcs there is no way for me to translate the measurements on my ear

[zenith pawn]

what does csd stand for here

[livid ruin]

you have a 3khz frequency that’s supposted to sound in the original audio for let’s say 100ms at 100db then drop to 80db at 120ms but your headphones output 3khz at 100db for 0.1 second and then 95db for another 0.1 second and 90db for another 0.1 seconds, but the original audio only was that short impulse

because the materials around the driver hold onto the frequency

[lone flame]

if you top a sound. how fast the transducer stops moving

[lone flame]

ahh thats what u mean

isn't really audible

bcs all that stuff is about the same distance to your ear

[zenith pawn]

does anyone know what CSD stands for because ive been on google for like 3 minutes and everyone just says the acronym 😭

[livid ruin]

you have cymbals for example, you hit them, the first time you hit them is the loudest but the metal resonates and continues to output the sound/similar frequencies

[zenith pawn]

ok as soon as i said that the next result had the answer

cumulative spectral decay

[lone flame]

"how fast the headphone stops making sound AFTER the signal has been stopped"
1 second of google lol

[zenith pawn]

i said what it stands for not what it means

like twice

[lean grove]

Gin and tonic

[lone flame]

ah sorry xD

[warm scarab]

which gin

[lone flame]

dis

[livid ruin]

well, uhh is it really not

[zenith pawn]

im reading the rtings article "The Waterfall Illusion
How Analysis Parameters Can Overshadow Acoustic Truth In Headphones CSD Plots"

[lone flame]

easy to test,
play music and suddenly stop the signal and listen if you hear any "dacay" or so

[lean grove]

Roku

[warm scarab]

holy shit

[lone flame]

and make sure to that the room or place has not much reverb

[lean grove]

Japanese gin with tons of lemon

[warm scarab]

dude

[green marsh]

based nils

[zenith pawn]

roku tv

[lean grove]

https://tenor.com/view/soy-point-laugh-lmao-bounce-gif-18423189278783339338

[lone flame]

Behringer

[lean grove]

Real recognizes real

[warm scarab]

realest

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/the-original-nolan-sykes-donut-media-authentic-genuine-gif-18630788

[livid ruin]

what if the average person can’t tell, yes if they can’t tell you could ask… it then doesn’t matter but average person might not tell a change to the fr itself

[warm scarab]

average person should start drinking roku

[livid ruin]

that’s why i was thinking csd is decently important

[green marsh]

is that a trollface coaster?

[lone flame]

nah

[green marsh]

its literally not tho

[lone flame]

the parts in a headphone are so small that the resonance frequencie would be pretty high and also would not be able to hold the energy for a long period of time

[warm scarab]

yes

it goes very hard

[zenith pawn]

rtings seems to agree that csd isnt really important for headphones

[lone flame]

no Drink'n Discord!

[warm scarab]

i dont have

[lean grove]

Get

[warm scarab]

expensive

[lean grove]

Poor 🫵

[warm scarab]

very good

i wasnt looking at the phone while taking the pic

very centered

[lean grove]

What the hell is that

[warm scarab]

cognac

[lean grove]

I don't think I've ever had cognac

[warm scarab]

thats wild

[zenith pawn]

blurry photo of alcohol

[warm scarab]

its like brandy except not for neckbeards

[lean grove]

I live in a very American part of America. We have whiskey, vodka, and gin.

[warm scarab]

american alcohol situation is kind of tragic

[lone flame]

#off-topic

[warm scarab]

you either drink the locally produced sugary shit or get scammed at places with actually good liquor

[lean grove]

Klaus what alcohol do you think pairs best with the ksc75

[unique wind]

i thought you were northern european tbh

[warm scarab]

methanol

[lean grove]

Going blind enhances the sound field

[lean grove]

Common misconception.

[unique wind]

i am living lavishly

sipping on 5% hard mtn dew baja blast

[warm scarab]

must be why my ex put on a blindfold while holding me in bed

[lean grove]

A man of culture

[unique wind]

listening to little peep on chifi

peak

[lean grove]

It's because she didn't want you to know that wasn't actually her licking your tootsies

[unique wind]

[lean grove]

https://youtu.be/w7wiKxQ_hHE

[unique wind]

this fricks

[warm scarab]

this music sucks

should have more black men yelling obscenities with autotune

[lean grove]

https://youtu.be/89F5fpvwPr0

[zenith pawn]

listen to rush instead

[unique wind]

right now im listening to lau noah ode to darkness

[lone flame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPTL-P7Sifc
better

[zenith pawn]

bro typed out the full legal name little peep

[unique wind]

do you listen to Gustav Elijah Åhr?

[zenith pawn]

No

[unique wind]

🥀

[livid ruin]

i drew a poor example of a csd in 2d (lol) each line down rainbow is let’s say 10ms in time, let’s say the time it takes for the headphones since it last received analog power to get to -25db is 90ms as for the 4khz resonance (very properly drawn yes)
would in this case the csd be scientifically of importance?

i know this is not how a csd waterfall or other visualization of decay should looks like but whatever

like

these but worse

for example -5db would span over 10ms

would csd still be irrelevant even in that case?

[green marsh]

yes

[lone flame]

2ms isn't audible

[lean grove]

what if its 2000ms

[livid ruin]

i’m talking if it would be more

[lone flame]

there is so much damping material inside a headphone.
unlikely to be more

[livid ruin]

what if the manufacturer is an idiot

[lone flame]

FR would be shit

[green marsh]

everything in the csd will show up in the fr

thats how it works

minimum phase device

[lone flame]

thig is with resonance

If there is something else that swings with the driver at a frequency

it will automatically boost that frequency

[lean grove]

thats one thing ive wondered about the FR. when it does a sine sweep, is it isolating intensity of that frequency, or is it just measuring SPL at a specific input

like if i feed it 500hz, and it doesnt realize it, will it be a flat line or a spike at 500hz

[lean grove]

is there a fourier analysis

[warm scarab]

thoughts on this graph?

[lone flame]

whats dis

[warm scarab]

graph

[lone flame]

of?

[green marsh]

its a lot of calculations

not just a sweep and read the spl

[lean grove]

im one gin and tonic and three fingers of vodka deep rn

[warm scarab]

its a graph man

[lean grove]

make it simple for me, math man

[green marsh]

it do fancy math

[lone flame]

get sober, than come back

[warm scarab]

then*

its so over for this man

take him to solitary

[lean grove]

does it do a fourier transform or something else

[lone flame]

i twist then and than bcs in germany "then" is "dann" and "than" is "als"

bcs "dann" and "than" sounds similar i twist that always xD

[lean grove]

@warm scarab
this ones my favorite graph

[warm scarab]

eins zwei polizei drei vier grenadier fünf sechs alte hex

[warm scarab]

this fucking sucks dude acquire taste

[lean grove]

the van deemter equation shall not be besmirched

[lone flame]

POV: Nils most favourite measuring rig

[warm scarab]

my graph was way better

[lean grove]

https://www.agilent.com/en/product/atomic-spectroscopy/inductively-coupled-plasma-optical-emission-spectroscopy-icp-oes/icp-oes-instruments/5800-icp-oes

this one is

[green marsh]

from headphone show discord

[warm scarab]

actually oratory doesnt know anything about this

[lean grove]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/510681715484786710/1335340295939948575/BatmanThinkfast.gif

[warm scarab]

some scizophrenic in a 10 person audio discord server told me

[green marsh]

lmao

real shit

[lone flame]

AHAHAHAHA

well. He must be Sean Olive to be even allowed to say that to someone that works in that area

[warm scarab]

he said sean olive also sucks so probably a lot better than him

[green marsh]

yeah he made harman target

so he cant be good

[lone flame]

true

im missing bass

[warm scarab]

good point

[lone flame]

jokes aside 😄

[warm scarab]

jokes?

[elder thistle]

correction this is not the same video I thought it was

sounds like a repeat of a previous video though

where it's like "can you eq to other headphones" --> "advanced eq / measurements explanation"

doesn't try to answer the underlying question

which is good

[zenith pawn]

something I've always wondered, if the hypothesis someone says in a review is "I can hear X sounds different in my favorite song Y, compared to a different headphone", why can't you try playing the actual song through two headphones and record the output, and compare them

why does it always have to be these abstract measurement methods

Then you could eliminate the argument of a sine sweep not being representative of what you encounter in actual real world sound reproduction

[elder thistle]

it gets messy

aside from most people not having a sound source that can manifest the techs of other headphones that easily, there's also a limit to what the microphones capture in terms of techs

obviously tone is warped too

but I have plenty of recordings like what you're suggesting, and it can be used as an aid while comparing two headphones

it just needs total intervention by two people playing a game of go fish with what they're hearing

[gilded oar]

I have 2 receivers, a Sony STR-DH550 and a Pioneer VSX-D514. Should I:
A: Use the DH550
B: Use the D514
C: Use both together

[lone flame]

because you hear with your ears

and recordings doesnt show how u would hear it

so if you record 2 headphones

yeah there would be a difference

but this difference is VERY far of what you would hear

[zenith pawn]

I thought if you used a 5128 or something then it'd at least be pretty representative, especially if you just did an FFT and showed differences you were hearing

[lone flame]

5128 is to simulate human hearing

but your head and earshape itselft makes the headphones behave differently etc

that are all variables you have to count in

and with a recording this wouldnt be applied

also a 5128 is not meant to record

its meant to measure

[green marsh]

thats literally just the fr difference

[zenith pawn]

Yeah but I mean sometimes when there's details they hear that aren't part of the frequency response

[green marsh]

everything is fr

but not neccessarily the same one on the graph

you must consider hptf/hrtf differences

every human has a different shape ears and every headphone interacts with those shapes in a different way

[zenith pawn]

oh yeah that brings me to the other idea, we should have three dimensional freqency response graphs (i think)

[green marsh]

No we shouldnt

Those already exist and theyre called csd graphs

[zenith pawn]

well there needs to be something

[green marsh]

And for headphones they dont show you anything more than fr

There doesnt need to be anything

Fr and distortion will tell you just about everything about how a headphone sounds

[zenith pawn]

not really

[candid hare]

Where do I connect my RCA cables to a Yamaha R-S201. I'm trying to hook up my audio interface it's a focus rite 3rd Gen. Ohh yeah when I connect to line 3 and some of the others I only get volume playing from my left speaker

[zenith pawn]

so wait I'm curious which side of the world you're on; if everything is FR then why can you not just take a $50 headphone and EQ them to be identical to an expensive headphone? Do you do that?

Or if that headphone has too much distortion, then up the budget a bit I gurss

but that's the same idea I meant, make a cheap headphone with undetectable distortion and eq it to an expensive one

[glad creek]

I'm on the side of everything IS data, but not everything is FR and if there are things that are not explainable through data, it means we still haven't found what data to retrieve and how to analyze it correctly

For DACs and amps, we already have everything explainable through data, and if someone says "yeah but I don't like 'analytical' sound", then sure, you can find an amp that is not like that and has distorsion or whatever THANKS to measurements

For headphones ? We have lots of ways to get an idea on how it will sound, but FR isn't everything and i'm not convinced we cover everything possible currently, so yeah subjectivity matters more there, but because it's harder to measure and interpret everything needed

[glad creek]

He said that about everything is FR and distorsion, so with this assertion, if he would be taking 5$ earbuds he would not be able to EQ them to be identical to expensive things because of distorsion

First the default distorsion would probably be too high, but even then when you EQ you increase distorsion
And even then, usually in the range of bass, if there are no bass you can't EQ it
Like if you need +50dB in the 20-50Hz, it's just physically impossible to get them and if it was possible it would be with so much distorsion that it would be utterly inaudible

[zenith pawn]

this is where I am

[zenith pawn]

that's where the problem is though, because the counterargument amounts to that everything is FR and distortion, so nothing new needs to be measured

[glad creek]

One random things that matters for headphones is the reverberation/echo (or whatever is the english word ... sorry don't remember) inside the headphone / against you head etc, that will change how we perceive the sound heavily and will not be visible with just a FR / distorsion graph alone. Stuff like decay / RT60 / waterfall

Though, those kind of data are still standard but hard to measure reliably for headphones, with speakers they are essential (room acoustic)
But with just those, it already becomes way harder to picture how things will sound for laymans

[zenith pawn]

I proposed that there's audible differences you could measure in a different way (no clue if my idea would actually work but that's the concept), and the response is "everything is fr"

but then they say "just about everything" which contradicts themselves, so that's why I'm confused

[zenith pawn]

What about with iems

[candid hare]

Does my receiver have a connection for a audio interface with RCA cable

[zenith pawn]

isn't that what the circle plugs are for or am I too zoomer

[glad creek]

I have strictly no knowledge of iems, i almost never used iem, never bothered learning anything about iem
I already prefer listening on my speakers rather than headphones, so iem ? Nah

There interest come from two things : having good audio cheaply (i don't care) and being small / portable (I don't care and if I were to listen to music in the subway i wouldn't need as much quality as my home setup with good focus on the music)

[zenith pawn]

rip

[glad creek]

have you tried the RCA in ? They work vertically

[zenith pawn]

for me its that I can't stand headphones pushing down on the top of my head

[glad creek]

Well maybe you haven't found something that fit you well

[zenith pawn]

Maybe

[glad creek]

And what you said underline what I think about modern headphone :
Most (good) hifi headphones are way more than good enough and it's, to me, more important to focus on fit and comfort rather than pure sound quality that would be like 5% better or whatever

... if it's something you wear 10h per day like me at least

I owned dozens of differents hifi headphones, and no headphones sound as good as a good speaker setup anyway, there is a visceral physical feeling that you can't get with headphones

[candid hare]

I got the AKGK712 headphones with a creek obh-21 headphones amp I dunno much abought audio but I like it!!!

[zenith pawn]

And they make your ears hot but maybe open back changes that

[glad creek]

I like the AKG K712 (well i had the Q701 but it's close enough)

[glad creek]

it does, but it also depends on the material of the cushion and size/weight/pressure of the headphone

[candid hare]

Haha yes I always love seeing people use them I'm like hey I got those I made the right choice

[glad creek]

I still prefer my hd600, but it's mainly due to comfort, I gave the q701 to a friend years ago

Though comfort on those akg was on the upper hand of the spectrum

[candid hare]

I definitely need to go to like a headphone con or something lol and see how others sound to expand my palate

Yeah I like how mine feels I had to put tape in the cushion.. where it connects to keep it from falling off. For how much they go for it's should be all metal but I'm not complaining I got them for 80$ off of eBay

[glad creek]

You should try to EQ them a bit, they have a strange FR out of the box

Also what they mainly lack vs good modern headphone is the deep bass extension (same for my hd600)

[candid hare]

This is just a present I got from offline

[glad creek]

The value of the frequencies is okay, the gain probably, but those Q-factors ? oh wow those are high

[glad creek]

You need to have the other end have 2 RCA connectors

[candid hare]

I forgot the tool I used online

[glad creek]

Those are oratory values for your headphone, what is widely considered the best base for EQ

You could try them if you have the time once

[candid hare]

Definitely thanks I'll save this and do that sometime soon.

[tawdry gale]

Cuz earbuds bypass the pinna

Headphones dont

[zenith pawn]

Sorry I meant to type headphone there

so they'd both be the same

although I'd still like to ask that but I suppose that's not important now

[tawdry gale]

It is possible but only if u eq by ear which takes some skill especially the treble region

[candid hare]

Y'all ever feel like cereal experiments lain with all these wires I really got a cable manage

Cereal lmao

[zenith pawn]

what's cereal experiments lain

[tawdry gale]

If the headphone ur starting with has a wonky tuning, it's basically impossible

[zenith pawn]

why only by ear

[tawdry gale]

Measurement rigs including the b&k 5128 aren't very accurate

[zenith pawn]

Hmmm

curious what that guy earlier thinks though

[candid hare]

@zenith pawn over simplified it's a anime abought a girl

[zenith pawn]

this is the start of the concept #audio-tech message

[tawdry gale]

Also positioning on the measuring rig can drastically change the fr

Clamp force is also a major factor

[lone flame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwvqxiBjr3M

[lone flame]

first of all.
Distortion DOESNT MATTER unless it matters
If you listen to 120dB SPL yeah. Distortion is a problem
But if you listen at 70dB SPL it mostly likely won't

So depending on your listening level, you're pretty free to EQ as much as you want
Ofcourse there are some outstanding THD monsters like the KSC75 or DT 990 Pro.
But mostly headphones have a quite moderate THD performance.
And that is NOT defined by price btw.

There are like handfull of headphones that needs "50+dB in the bass frequecies"..
Only listening level i was able to get quite nice Bass out of my HD600

[glad creek]

It usually matters for basses when EQing
Even if you listen at 70dB, if you need to put +25dB in the basses you'll reach horrible distorsion levels

And yeah it's not dictated by price I agree

[tawdry gale]

Lower the preamp gain

[lone flame]

There are so much factors that influences the sound of headphones on our had. But that in the end is indeed Frequency Response

lowering the pregain is needed to prevent clipping

[glad creek]

this is unrelated and what you are saying is about digital clipping

[lone flame]

+25dB on what headphone as example?

If you put everything to its extreme. yeah. there is a physical limit lol

[glad creek]

We were talking about "cheap 5$ headphones", the basis was "can we eq any cheap 5$ headphones to something good", I put any random number

[zenith pawn]

this is the wrong argument to be starting, its not what I meant at all

[lone flame]

If the stock FR is quite nice? why not

[zenith pawn]

I suppose the real answer is its hard to measure the frequency response precisely and accurately enough to tell everything about how it sounds just off of your eyes

[lone flame]

Question on that... explain what you mean by that

what else can a human hear than:
Frequency
Amplitude of Frequency
Time difference between left and right ear
Phase

[tawdry gale]

The problem is that the term "detail" is subjective in audio

[glad creek]

But if we take for example the hd600 for more realistic numbers

If we want it to follow harman curve then you need to add + 15dB to 20Hz
If you listen at 70dB average, with, say, a 8dB dynamic range music, you get to 78dB, + 15dB, you get to 93dB

And yes you still are at an inaudible distorsion level

Now if you listen at 85dB average, then it would be too much

[tawdry gale]

Just get a more powerful amp

[glad creek]

This is still unrelated, even if yes you do need a powerfull amp to have this much EQ indeed

[lone flame]

If you want high listening levels.
Get Headphones with a low distortion profile

like. get Audeze

or HE1

[zenith pawn]

Now I mean the actual real world frequency response curve somebody measured with a machine. Not just abstractly is it possible

[lone flame]

Well if you measure something with the 5128...
this is the actual sound that the 5128 hears

[glad creek]

I just use my speaker setup if I want high listening levels and great basses

[zenith pawn]

detail as in a thing that is different. Not as in it sounding more "detailed"

[lone flame]

its ofc far off of what we hear due to all these little things that affects sound 😄

[glad creek]

And I have an audeze too, it's clearly better in the basses than the hd600 indeed

[zenith pawn]

yeah

[lone flame]

u mean "resolution" of sound itself?

[zenith pawn]

No

I mean details as in "things"

[lone flame]

that works too ofc.

[glad creek]

As said there are others things, like decay etc

[lone flame]

well. That is FR.

[zenith pawn]

give me all the details on the party we're having tomorrow

[lone flame]

these "things"

[zenith pawn]

Maybe

It doesn't seem like that's an accepted truth

[lone flame]

It is hard to do it correctly because it is extremly easy to absolutly change the FR by absolutly doing nothing
moving your head around can cause a depositioning and that leads to a different FR

[glad creek]

Frequency response alone doesn't measure everything

It doesn't measure distorsion
It doesn't measure decay/rt60/reflections inside the heaphone/against your ear for example

[lone flame]

decay on a minimum phase system?

[lone flame]

reflections are FR 😄

[zenith pawn]

What also confuses me is a lot of people (including here) both believe in this, but then also believe in absolute phase being audible. Which sounds contradictory to me

[lone flame]

well. not to be mean but some people:

[glad creek]

Reflections is inside FR but you won't be able to tell everything with just the FR

[lone flame]

https://tenor.com/view/brainrot-nerve-burst-gif-15853556208898449784

[lone flame]

FR and Distortion

[zenith pawn]

Is it possible I am wrong about it being contradictory though

or does it have to be minimum phase (is that the right term here) and therefore can't hear any absolute phase

[lone flame]

well. i would need to know what they mean by that

like. on a headphones each side is seperated. So there won't be phase issues with cancelling out Frequencies etc

[glad creek]

Still, reflections are a thing and impact the perception of sound, they change the so called "imaging"/"soundstage" people speak of
And it's not visible on the FR graph alone

[tawdry gale]

Different in what way

[lone flame]

Reflections are visible..... I can even show you that 😄

or its easy to explain with math

[glad creek]

Yes but it does not give any real indication on if it's just a peak from the driver or reflections, nor the amount of reflections precisely or whatsoever

[zenith pawn]

And it's not visible on the FR graph alone
that's what I'm getting at

[glad creek]

Yes for me FR graph alone is not enough
But on headphones, reflections aren't as important as on speakers, so FR alone gives a pretty good understanding of the sound, it's also way harder to measure

[lone flame]

headphones are designed to do exactly that btw

[glad creek]

it doesn't change anything from what I'm saying

[lone flame]

like i said. Reflections are FR

[zenith pawn]

the poor guy that's having trouble with the receiver connectors is gonna drown in this conversation

took the whole channel hostage

[tawdry gale]

Reflections change the FR especially in closed back headphones

[glad creek]

Reflections are at certain frequencies and at certain SPL sure, but you don't know the delay, direction and number with just the FR graph

[tawdry gale]

Which is why there are so few closed backs that are well tuned

[lone flame]

u know how fast sound is? and how small the room inside a headphone is?

that "delay" will not be in an audible range that it matters in any kind

[glad creek]

Yes I know, 344m/s something like that

[glad creek]

it can bounce a lot of times against your head/earcup before disappearing so no

First reflection ? Sure

But the overall RT60 time ? it's clearly audible

[lone flame]

u have to know.... sound moves with 3.43 meters per MILISECOND

[glad creek]

I know yes

[lone flame]

so u wanna tell me... stuff under a ms are audible?

[glad creek]

I'm not saying that no

[lone flame]

on headphones?

[zenith pawn]

maybe I made a good choice by replacing my audiophile interest with keyboardphile interest

[glad creek]

You know that the human ear can discern reflexion down to 5ms ?

[lone flame]

but on headphones its less than 1ms if we do the math

[zenith pawn]

the force curve tells you everything about how a switch feels

[glad creek]

And you can perceive altered timber down to 1ms ?

[glad creek]

It can bounce multiple times thus increase this time

[lone flame]

Ah yes it bounces multiple times, get avsolutly not absorbed by all these damping material inside etc

[lone flame]

you have to know

[glad creek]

which is why it has to be measured, the RT60

[lone flame]

Headphones are technically extremly well treated rooms...

[glad creek]

how much time it takes to get below 60dB vs initial sound

[lone flame]

uh.. it happens instantly

[zenith pawn]

and iems are badly treated astronaut helmets?

[lone flame]

no

[zenith pawn]

hah

[lone flame]

idk what u even mean by that

[glad creek]

it does not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_envelope_and_fine_structure

Sub 1ms differences in this can change the timber / clarity of sound

[zenith pawn]

joke about the soundstage

[tawdry gale]

Iems and headphones don't have soundstage

[zenith pawn]

that was the joke

[lone flame]

seems like FR

[zenith pawn]

It all does, don't it

[lone flame]

Temporal envelope (ENV) and temporal fine structure (TFS) are changes in the amplitude and frequency of sound perceived by humans over time. These temporal changes are responsible for several aspects of auditory perception, including loudness, pitch and timbre perception and spatial hearing.

like. it literally say it in the first sentence

[sleek lily]

Sorry, I forgot to respond yesterday. Basically, how consistent the gain ratio is based on the input voltage and the output impedance. Amps tend to not actually be perfectly linear in gain ratio and dacs can easily have variance in their step voltage at different points.

[zenith pawn]

yeah but over time is the highlight part

[lone flame]

ontop. this applies on humans, not on headphones.

[sleek lily]

Is the minimum voltage change for your smallest step or LSB when dealing with a DAC.

[lone flame]

its your ear. not the headphone

[glad creek]

but of course everything is frequecy and amplitude

However you can't measure everything with just the usual frequency response graph that's all

harmonic distorsion ? Yes it is frequencies + amplitude, but it's not the same frequency as the foundamental frequency, it is for the harmonic multiples

rt60 / decay ? Yes it's frequencies + amplitude, but this time instead of not being the same frequency as the initial sound, it is the same freq but not at the same time (and amplitude)

So no you can't have everything with a frequency response graph

[zenith pawn]

when games or operating systems have one of those "spatial audio" hrtf simulation options are they just applying an EQ and thats it to the audio?

[glad creek]

they could fiddle with making artificial echo (time offset), but the other guy will say "IT IS FREQUENCY"

[lone flame]

well
Measuring rigs arem made to simulate our ears soooo...
And you can measure headphones by putting specific mics in your ear etc

[glad creek]

But you can't read distorsion, rt60, impulse time or whatever else with just a frequency response graph

[lone flame]

contradiction...
You say. Everything is FR but also you say "not everything visible on FR graph"

[lone flame]

impulse time?

[sleek lily]

They add a slight delay and change in volume based on the position of the sound, but there are also usually a number of other variables taken into account, so a good bit more complex than just eq. Depends on the developer though

[zenith pawn]

I suppose I can see the argument. That you can tweak tons of dials that arent named EQ, but the effects are all are visible in the FR curve in a theoretical sense

[glad creek]

Obviously "it is frequency and amplitude olol"
It's like litteraly the definition of sound

But a frequency response graph doesn't show everything no

[zenith pawn]

because they would influence the sine sweep measurement?

[glad creek]

Everything is frequency and amplitude, not everything is FR (i.e. frequency response)

[lone flame]

if everything is FR. and you measure FR. How can it not measure everything in FR?

that doesnt make sense

[glad creek]

no

Frequency response is a specific kind of measurement

[lone flame]

Frequency Response is leterally Frequency + Amplitude

[sleek lily]

You can also make changes that will never show in a frequency response graphs. Frequency response is limited inherently in what is being measured, as it measures at one voltage and only the RMS average at each point.

[zenith pawn]

somehow we've circled back to what triggered my original idea that started this argument

[sleek lily]

It's a 2 axis graph for a subject with many more axis of data

[zenith pawn]

I couldn't come up with a specific example of what you could change that wouldn't affect FR though. So I'm curious

[glad creek]

It measures the amplitude of different frequencies

It won't measure if for one frequency there will be other parasite frequencies and at which amplitude those parasite frequencies will be (distorsion)

It won't measure the time of one frequency

Do not confuse everything

[lone flame]

Here.... Frequency and Amplitude in a Graph.
Ontop its 20Hz-20kHz and yeah

its literally what you said

[zenith pawn]

like I'm thinking of it as if FR is a cryptographic hash function

[sleek lily]

I mean, to give a lazy example, my step linearity example would never show up in frequency response, but is a real thing that impacts everything from the dac to the driver

[glad creek]

that is such a dumb thing to say that I don't even know where to start to say how wrong and warped you are on this

[sleek lily]

This is an inherent limitation of using a 2 variable measurement at one voltage.

[glad creek]

But my last message should be pretty clear on this

[zenith pawn]

@sleek lily that makes a lot of sense to me

although I don't quite understand specifically what the k step linearity thing is about

[sleek lily]

Actually I have another good example that's more visual

Hold on a sec

[zenith pawn]

I saw the linearity thing when it was mentionef earlier

[lone flame]

you said.
"Everything is Frequency and Amplitude" and its exactly what this graph show. Frequencies and their amplitude. aka. Frequency Response

[glad creek]

This FR graph shows for each frequency it's amplitude

It doesn't give any temporal data, it doesn't give any data on other frequencies when you are at each frequency etc

Those others things are also "frequencies and amplitude", but not forcefully the same frequencies, not forcefully at the same time, not forcefully the same amplitude

[zenith pawn]

This doesn't seem like a sound statement

[glad creek]

it is not lmao

[sleek lily]

So here is an oscilloscope reading of 2 amps. They actually have the same frequency response as far as we are concerned in the audible range. They clearly don't behave the same though.

The first has issues with holdup when it has that DC load

[lone flame]

why making off topic statements when the topic is audio

[sleek lily]

That is because the input voltage slowly decreased in this instance. That limitation is utterly ignored if we just used frequency response too.

[sleek lily]

This is audio.

[zenith pawn]

curious what the FFT looks like on both these curves

"curves" used generously

that makes me think of a different thing

[lone flame]

what would be the sound difference?

like the actual audible difference

[sleek lily]

If poor holdup time? You'd likely see a slight voltage drop over time with consistent high current loads here.

Such as music

Especially with lower frequencies slowly creeping down in amplitude as the input voltage drops

[glad creek]

Frequency response graph is a stationary measurement in time, it doesn't capture temporal properties

[zenith pawn]

its generally accepted we don't need more than the Nyquist frequency for digital audio, even if you listen to sounds such as a square wave, because the difference between the wavy square and the perfect square can't be detected by ears

[lone flame]

so its like "it changes the FR temporary"? or?

[glad creek]

stop with that man

[zenith pawn]

so then is the difference between those two square waves you showed, BIOOC, outside of the human frequency range?

[glad creek]

You can't comprehend basic scientific information

You think "sound = frequency + amplitude => frequency response is everything" like a monkey without understanding what it measures really

[zenith pawn]

the appositive in that sentence makes it sound a lot more aggressive than I meant it to be

[sleek lily]

It's not what you're saying, but I saw someone try to claim that square waves are just frequency response because fft. They were seemingly using that term more like a buzzword though. It's important to know that you can't deduce frequencies under the fundamental, but also in a headphone sense you only have an ac load at the pgt and ngt. You also have almost all your data at the odd harmonics in reality, and in an ideal square wave the edge breaks into infinite fundamentals.

[lone flame]

meant like. The audible stuff,
What would you hear

not see

[sleek lily]

No, not necessarily unless we change the definition of what a frequency response graphs is measuring.

[zenith pawn]

wdym by can't deduce frequencies under the fundamental

[sleek lily]

You would hear a loss of amplitude with consistent high current loads like music.

[sleek lily]

Like if I play a 500hz square wave, you can't use a Fourier to get a 100hz fundamental out of that 500hz signal

[lone flame]

make an example pls

[zenith pawn]

Oh. Yeah
also what's pgt and ngt

[sleek lily]

Pgt is the positive going transient, and ngt is the negative going transient

[zenith pawn]

Is it the same as rising and falling edge

[sleek lily]

Yea, it's just a general reference point on the wave used to assess it

You could use any point on the wave though in place of them technically

As long as the second point is 180 degrees away from the initial

[lone flame]

idk what u mean. sound like that it's just music

gosh translation needs to get better

[zenith pawn]

when you say there's only an AC load at the pgt and ngt, is that meaning like there's only sound "playing" so-to-say during the edges of the square wave?

[sleek lily]

It applies to music or any AC or especially DC load. Music just happens to be an AC load.

[lone flame]

ah

[lone flame]

so and this is AC vs DC?

Or what's the problem with these square waves?

like one is square. the other one drops

[zenith pawn]

its that it's audible

I think I can sorta visualize how that works

[sleek lily]

I meant with the square wave specifically if it's ideal there. The point between each pgt and ngt in a square wave are a DC load, so you won't get an electric response from a headphone or speaker using a square wave, only the fundamental and then the room response at certain points.

I didn't make it too clear in my initial message though.

[sleek lily]

The principle issue here applies to both, but the square wave is an AC and a DC load

[lone flame]

so and the left one did what?

[sleek lily]

It dropped input voltage with the consistent DC load

[lone flame]

and why?

is it just fail Design?

[sleek lily]

Because that's more difficult to maintain and is drawing more current than the AC load will at at a single point in time

But it is a design level issue.

[lone flame]

is that audible?

[sleek lily]

Yes

It would in theory be audible

[lone flame]

that's what i wanna know.
How exactly does it sound like

[sleek lily]

How much it matters is more debatable

[lone flame]

like If we push that shit even worse

would it result into a "sinewave" like signal?

[sleek lily]

No, it would eventually result in a sawtooth wave as it loses all power at the transition

[lone flame]

and then if you throw music in. it would sound distorted right?

[sleek lily]

It would sound off because as the track continues you'd lose power at lower frequency loads, and at higher frequencies when low frequencies play.

[lone flame]

ah so like bass and treble will lose volume weirdly

[sleek lily]

Yes

[lone flame]

like they start to "cancel" each other out

[sleek lily]

No

[lone flame]

Sounds like a "compressor" to me

like when the bass hits. Treble volume drops

when treble hits, bass volume

[sleek lily]

It's just due to the input DC source dropping in this case

[lone flame]

is it equally or "either bass, either treble"

[sleek lily]

Its just due to those lower frequencies being harder to maintain, as you go longer before a lowered load near the zero crossing.

So when they occur, an amp like that will lose power with any frequency played with those lower ones, especially if it's had a continuous load.

[lone flame]

and if we measure FR. The measuring technies doesnt trigger that?
Or why exactly isn't that visible on FR

[sleek lily]

Because it's not a consistent load, but just a short load of one voltage target for a short period of time with one frequency playing at any point in time

[lone flame]

So if you do sine sweps it wont be visible on FR

But if you do stuff like White noise.
That should be visible or not?

[sleek lily]

Depends

But really, the issue is just the limited range of what frequency response measures.

[lone flame]

So if we had a 2D FR and add "time" to it too.
then it should be visible or not

so "FR over time"

[zenith pawn]

apparently that's CSD

[lone flame]

good.
i understand now

useless for headphones tho

[sleek lily]

It's sort of like imd but after a continuous load

[lone flame]

but on DACs and AMPs hmmm

[sleek lily]

Why would it be useless for headphones?

They are a load are they not?

It would apply to them all the same

[lone flame]

is not audible. atleast i never heard that effect on headphones

maybe if you have big Transducers and the mass etc has to go back to its original state

but headphones transducers are quite small and extremly light

[sleek lily]

That wouldn't change the electric property

[zenith pawn]

parroting rtings

In loudspeaker measurements, CSD plots help isolate how a transducer behaves before room reflections muddy the picture. Early decay tails, windowed within a few milliseconds, correspond to real-world distances—walls, ceilings, and floor bounces. A 5 ms window might literally reflect the time before a sidewall echo hits the mic. The decay is physically grounded.

Headphones operate under very different conditions. The "room" is now just a few cubic centimeters between the driver and the ear canal. There are no distant surfaces, no late reflections—only immediate pressure variations. Nearly all of the impulse energy arrives in the first moment, leaving little room for traditional decay patterns to play out.

[sleek lily]

I gotta drive somewhere, so for now just ping me if I don't respond later on

[lone flame]

have a nice trip 😄

[sleek lily]

Yea, csd is a good graph for identifying physical room response behaviors, but even it misses a lot of the electrical stuff unfortunately. But csd it another graph I wish was more commonly used, but even though it holds more information than frequency response alone, it's still also somewhat limited in what it can cover.

[sleek lily]

Forgot to mention. I actually watched this video. A lot of it is just misconceptions backed up by their own assumptions. I actually wish I could talk to them about this, because a lot of the concepts displayed and the assumptions made to justify them are really easily refuted. I'm sure resolve would be logical enough to question these with feedback from outside of the audio space, but the audio science space is sort of an echo chamber of pseudoscience passed as science at the moment unfortunately.

But I definitely will warn, don't take any info in that video at face value. At the very least, think analytically about why each statement might not be true while watching it.

[broken grotto]

I take very little from any video at face value

[green marsh]

If you were able to perfectly eq them yes but therein lies the problem

The percieved headphone fr is very dependent on positioning and ear shape

[sleek lily]

If that was the only factor the difference would be pretty minimal and within expected hrtf variance between two similar normal heads though would it not? That also just ignores so many factors that objectively impact things that won't show up in frequency response and cant be changed by eq.

It would also mean all you'd have to do is sum the normal eq with the difference in your hrtf from the average.

[green marsh]

the problem with that is youd have to know your hrtf to be able to do that youd need measure your ears reponse in either an actual diffuse field which is very hard or measure the response at every angle and elevation which is super tedious

[sleek lily]

That's not as difficult or impossible as you are thinking it is. this idea is pretty dangerous because, it acts as a hand wavey way to sum up all the issues with the fact you can't eq one headphone into another with "it's just these magic things with your head making it not work". It ignores all the physically explainable reasonings as to why that wouldn't be the case, and somehow misses the simplicity of hrtf to gatekeep a misconception as relevant or beyond testing and science.

It's just a really bad practice.

Imagine a "scientist" in any other field trying to say you can't test their theory because a magical thing that physics would suggest is a small factor, but also saying all the physics based explanations just don't apply. They'd be categorized as a pseudoscience grifter. Idk why the audio science space propped this idea up so much, but imo it's dangerous. It's not your fault though, it's a community issue, so please don't think I'm blaming you for attacking you here.

[green marsh]

hrtf and hptf isnt magic tho

and it can cause huge swings in the percieved treble at the eardrum

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/382801814547988481/1399203996224323644/hrtf-diff-HD800s.png?ex=6888ce84&is=68877d04&hm=c664a63f2db122666b1dfefc0f1b707ef6287f352a85f6d650b7794591fe3197&

for example

[sleek lily]

That's my point, it's a very real explainable and small factor that gets used as a magic explanation for why this pretty "without a basis" theory uses to claim it can't be tested.

[green marsh]

i dont think anyone says it cant be tested

its just requires effort to do so

but everything is fr and if one was able to perfectly eq one headphone to the other im pretty sure theyd sound the exact same

key word being perfectly

[lean grove]

It's a perfectly normal scientific conclusion to say that we are unable to get meaningful results from this study because we were unable to get consistent measurements

[sleek lily]

Imo it's more akin to if someone said "current and resistance don't matter, it's just voltages" and when presented with the idea that that idea doesn't work on a principle level, but also a demonstration of it not working, waved that away with "nah, solar radiation and such are just throwing off the voltages, and your equipment just isn't seeing it". It's pretty absurd in my opinion. I also don't see a reason why we would conclude everything is frequency response, let alone need to synthesize an explanation for why that model doesn't work off the same non working model as its own source of evidence.

I mean, it goes against all current scientific understanding to begin with, which is a bad place to start without any exceptional evidence to back this model up.

[lean grove]

Imo that sounds like a willfully ignorant misunderstanding of what's being said.

[sleek lily]

Elaborate

[green marsh]

Your eardrums only register the vibrations in the air

[sleek lily]

I'm being a bit hyperbolic in the absurdity of the example, but it's to make it clear that it's an absurd model.

[green marsh]

Therefore the fr is the only thing that matters

[sleek lily]

You could say everything is amplitude and time

That's not the same thing as frequency response though

[green marsh]

And as a minimum phase device fr captures all the other things like phase and time etc blah blah blah

[sleek lily]

Frequency response measures one set RMS voltage with one frequency playing at any given time from the source. Not all potential amplitudes, their interactions, or the changes in time of these reaching a point from a set variable.

[sleek lily]

Elaborate, because this statement doesn't really make any sense alone.

Unless I'm missing something.

[green marsh]

it means that the fr includes all the time domain information already

and that we can derive it directly from the fr

[sleek lily]

What domain information?

Time domain?

I wouldn't use minimum phase as the word to describe that, but frequency response also doesn't contain any time domain information beyond how long that wave is in time.

[sleek lily]

It might be fair to say (assuming a true minimum phase system which most audio chains won't be)

"In a minimum phase system, the frequency response contains enough information to determine the phase response and impulse response shape, but not things like overall delay or timing differences between channels"

But even making that assumption, that's not magically all data. That's just deriving another couple graphs that still don't give you all information.

[glad creek]

It doesn't give temporal information nor does it give information on other parasite frequencies for one given frequency (distorsion)

So yes everything could be frequency but it is not shown only through a frequency response graph

[green marsh]

true although i did say that it was fr and distortion before but not just then

but aside from distortion everything can be derived from the fr graph since unlike biooc bellieves headphones are indeed a true minimum phase system

[gilded current]

can u explain what parasite frequencies are

[green marsh]

i assume the parenthesized term should tell what he means

harmonics probably

[tepid torrent]

why didnt bro just say that then

[gilded current]

oh bro just saying distortion in a way no one else says

[green marsh]

i do not concern myself with the thought patterns of the sheep

[red quest]

I wish

[glad creek]

Distorsion

It was to underline the fact that it measures one given amplitude for each frequency

[sleek lily]

What do you mean by minimum phase here. From my understanding, the fact that amps and especially drivers are reactive immediately would disqualify them from this, but it also shouldn't lead you to the conclusion you're making, so I'm thinking maybe you're just using the wrong word?

[glad creek]

But yeah lmao

[green marsh]

if you would simply look at the definition of minimum phase you would know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_phase

[sleek lily]

I know what the word means. It doesn't apply here, so I'm curious on if you're just using it in another context.

No need to be hostile.

Worst case scenario maybe I can help you find a better word to describe what you're trying to describe even. I don't really care to be semantic, and won't hold your use of the word against you, but I need to know how you're using it to interpret what you're trying to say.

[green marsh]

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/1ef7mlg/comment/lfjxzek/?utm_name=web3xcss

[gilded current]

why are u bringing up dacs and amps when he said headphones

[green marsh]

if you want it in words from someone with decades of experience i have linked up oratory1990 here

well idk about decades but i think its at elast a decade

[sleek lily]

His definition seems to be pretty odd. It implies anything that is within 360 degrees of the target is minimum phase. That's not how that word would generally be used, but given that context, I guess it's sort of true, but I still would avoid using minimum phase to describe that, as it will describe anything if we aren't measuring some sort of delay unrelated to the direct signal.

But even given that, in no way would it somehow make frequency response more information than it is inherently. It wouldn't even allow us to derive the things we could with the true minimum phase definition with how broad it is.

Using the true minimum phase definition we could derive impulse and signal phase from the amplitude, but that wouldn't be everything relating to how a signal behaves. That would be missing things like bandwidth, cross channel related differences in the time domain, channel interactions in the amplitude domain, the thing I keep hearing about with "step linearity, gain linearity, and the fact that headphones are not linearly efficient in output to the voltage at input", IMD, and probably a number of other factors not coming to mind at the moment.

[sleek lily]

@green marsh to give more context as to why I say they aren't minimum phase, it really has to do with the rhp zeros created by feedback inherently. It's not too relevant, as them being minimum phase shouldn't make frequency response cover variables it doesn't touch either way, but amplifiers inherently have feedback and speakers tend to also exhibit this behavior, but I'm not as qualified to speak on why they mechanically exhibit it.

[warm scarab]

do you guys know any cheap digital eq units

for applying room correction profiles to say a television

[green marsh]

Idk if you count it as cheap but the minidsp 2x4 hd is 225 usd

[lean grove]

Qudelix 5k is even cheaper

Can't do individual channels though

And hinges on your TV using USB

Hmm

[green marsh]

And mini dsp can do subwoofer

[lean grove]

Klaus can't afford a subwoofer

[green marsh]

Lmao

Why you pocket watching

[lean grove]

Klaus can't afford a subwoofer (derogatory)

[warm scarab]

that is a stupid ass cost

this should cost no more than 30 dollars for sanitys sake

the tech is so fucking primitive

[warm scarab]

can you use it to eq stuff

in detail

[green marsh]

Then find one thats 30 bucks

[warm scarab]

raspberry pi

with apple dongle

[green marsh]

Then do it

[warm scarab]

I dont want to because linux is a piece of shit

this doesnt make 200$ a justified price

that is a stupid take

I can literally buy a 20 band eq for like 50$ who the hell would pay 200 for equalizer apo in a dongle

[lean grove]

It does parametric EQ yeah. I think 10 bands.

[lean grove]

See @green marsh ?

[warm scarab]

if you are paying 200$ for eq apo dongle you have brain damage

confidently

[lean grove]

Oh wait I think fiio has some dongles that do parametric eq

[green marsh]

It seems you were right

[sleek lily]

Tbf, people pay thousands for cables that don't do eq lol

[warm scarab]

wow they must be really intelligent people

very intelligent and hinged spenders

[zenith pawn]

start making audiophile cables that just dont do anything

spend a lot on marketing

[warm scarab]

after the last dude saying he paid 250$ for cables because they were custom

im not too unsold on the idea

this sounds like a good market to get in

[zenith pawn]

i mustve missed that guy

[warm scarab]

frieren pfp

[livid ruin]

250 for some copper and rubber

[warm scarab]

no bro its custom you dont get it

[zenith pawn]

oh i didnt even register that guy has a frieren pfp

thats how few pixels this second monitor has

[livid ruin]

oh i didn't read the custom part

[sleek lily]

Didn't pay enough

[zenith pawn]

i dont think theyre buying cables for the sound properties though

[sleek lily]

[zenith pawn]

its like keyboard people that buy fancy aviator cables, its just for the fun or the looks

[livid ruin]

or what's objectively good

[warm scarab]

yeah no

but still its overpriced

[sleek lily]

Tbf, those are cheap asf

[warm scarab]

like biooc said

[zenith pawn]

ive seen ones as expensive as audiophile cables

[sleek lily]

Keyboard hobby is stupidly cheap tbh

[zenith pawn]

there are custom keyboard cables

[warm scarab]

they are expensive because no many people do that and its price is determined

[zenith pawn]

youve seen nothing

[warm scarab]

not because they are like sophisticated wires

[zenith pawn]

it can surpass audiophile taxes at the high end

[warm scarab]

this is kinda cap ngl

buckling spring keyboards

man

shoot me

i want one but ill never justify the cost

[zenith pawn]

plus theres no $25 7hz zero:2 equivalent in keyboards

[sleek lily]

Keyboard hobby kinda peaks at $200-500 and very few things reach $1k

[zenith pawn]

you have to spend like $200 to get something decent

[sleek lily]

And the $1k things are usually more of jokes than anything. They tend to have pretty bad design features

[sleek lily]

Not anymore. You can get an inky75 for like $69

[zenith pawn]

maybe if youre only considering the high end audiophile world then keyboard are cheaper

[warm scarab]

think i just witnessed a self harm attempt

im concerned

[zenith pawn]

i said decent :/

[sleek lily]

Inky 75 is better than most high end boards in feel and sound tbh

[zenith pawn]

oh wait i think i remember you

[sleek lily]

Only thing bad about it is if you happen to hate powder coating

[zenith pawn]

everything makes sense now

[livid ruin]

i like paracord-like or rubber audio cables, anything beyond that is just above me

[zenith pawn]

if i find myself a billionaire then i'll have to buy a good custom cable for the 7hz zero:2

[green marsh]

buy a nightjar sovereign symphony

[sleek lily]

Here are some recordings I made of different boards to compare it to. I think it's in here?

It didn't send

1 sec

[livid ruin]

is there a channel that does scientific reviews for keyboards? like which components the kb uses, if the diodes for example aren't known to have poor qc or short lifespan, etc. if a kb does have extra safeguard so it doesn't get killed by misuse for example

[tepid torrent]

just endlessly lowball mfs on ebay bro

[sleek lily]

Not really besides maybe keybored

[zenith pawn]

i havent looked into it really, i know theres some people on youtube that do a better job at actually reviewing things, i.e. keeb taro or keybored

maybe if i amass enough keyboards i could start a channel like that

[livid ruin]

do they actually check the components used tho

[zenith pawn]

wdym, like figure out what chips theyre using on the pcb?

[livid ruin]

yes

[zenith pawn]

dont think theres anyone that does that

[livid ruin]

lol

[zenith pawn]

ive been considering doing my own testing of sockets, switches, and pcbs to measure the switch registering to see if i could get insight into chattering

[sleek lily]

People doing component analysis in keyboard space is non existent

[zenith pawn]

i think that would be an interesting one

[sleek lily]

People in the keyboard space think PCBs are magic

[zenith pawn]

i guess the point is it doesn't matter so much
is there a big community of people disassembling every IEM and headphone to see exact driver models and designs

what ive seen is just measurements and testing

[sleek lily]

Literally had a whole discussion about how ESD protection isn't just some magic thing that can't be identified to just assume expensive boards have and say cheap ones don't

[livid ruin]

i've destroyed few pcbs to see if the sockets can handle improperly inserted switches

kailh ones suck

[sleek lily]

Keyboard space treats basic PCB design like a pseudoscience

[zenith pawn]

one thing i probably wont do is buy multiple pcbs for a keyboard because i think thats just silly

[warm scarab]

im saying man

[zenith pawn]

i think its that when you mention it its worded in a way that comes off as pretentious

[warm scarab]

any hobby that was early enough or simple enough to involve boomers in it

its doomed

[zenith pawn]

so people just ignore anything

[warm scarab]

this is why all the complicated hobbies are so good

[sleek lily]

Keyboard hobby is ruined by gen alpha tbh

[warm scarab]

falls into the two caveats

[livid ruin]

i don't think it is

[warm scarab]

-has boomers
-too simple

[zenith pawn]

audio hobby has children too

gaming headsets:

[sleek lily]

All the fortnite smooth brains think that PCB design is magic and expensive means good, think Chinese means bad, and just don't believe in anything physical besides how much money is paid (and they think more of that means better)

[livid ruin]

there always have been people that fall for marketing bs and then recommend the same bs to their friends, etc.

[zenith pawn]

id love to start a youtube channel and blog where i actually review the in depth pcb design but then i'd have to spend a lot of money buying keyboards

that's probably the only blocker for me

[warm scarab]

audio is 90% pseudoscienec

[livid ruin]

that's 3% of the stuff you'd have to manage

[warm scarab]

hate this hobby

[sleek lily]

They're such simple devices that there isn't much point

[livid ruin]

manufacturers cheap out so there is

[sleek lily]

Like if it works it's a top tier PCB design for a keyboard as far as anyone should be concerned unless you're worried about latency

Latency is like the only thing worth measuring in keyboards on the electronic side

[zenith pawn]

i dont think ive seen anyone test keyboard latency while bypassing the switch
like if you just send a signal to the socket directly, and then measure it against the usb messages

[livid ruin]

you'd be surprised how much you can mess up a pcb with shitty components

[sleek lily]

It's just 5v dc going across it. You'd have to use a switch anyways to test that

[warm scarab]

button matrix

and thats it

[sleek lily]

Not really. They're basically just a couple ic's and resistors and maybe some diodes for debouncing.

Not much to mess up

[livid ruin]

yes it can go horribly wrong if you get a bad batch of anything and put them on all of your keyboards

and destroy your brand when third of those components die after 2-4 years in many people's keyboards

[sleek lily]

No keyboard is binning out ic's for expected failure. It'd cost more to try and predict this on a single ic than the keyboard is worth

It'd be cheaper to send every customer a half dozen boards and ask them to pinky promise to just use one

[sleek lily]

I promise you there isn't a keyboard in the world with a 1 in 3 failure rate

The failure rate on those controllers is stupidly low

[livid ruin]

anyways i wouldn't rely on that keyboards are relatively simple = no failure or concern

[sleek lily]

And when the device has so few points of failure, it's a stupid level non issue

And it's not like they're high power devices, so most components if working out the factory will live stupidly long lives.

[livid ruin]

again, you're thinking about known and used controllers, a manufacturer can go with a easier for example route and pick up some recent cu's, etc. for a cheaper price or a manufacturer/s of the internals can do an oops and now you have a few thousand cu's within keyboards and only now it has been recalled

i'm not saying it's common but so isn't a psu exploding

[sleek lily]

I promise you, there isn't a controller used I keyboards with a failure rate of note in that application.

[livid ruin]

does not mean it cannot happen

[sleek lily]

Ic's aren't magic either. They're also expensive to make, so it's not like you're getting controllers from some random joe. They come from massive brands or they're rebrands of a massive brands design with minor modifications.

[zenith pawn]

I mean just connect directly to the socket and send voltage instead of actuating a switch with a piston or arm of some sort

[green marsh]

whats the point

[sleek lily]

Wouldn't that just be the startup time for the controller then?

Not much point testing how long a keyboard takes to power on between being plugged in or not

[sleek lily]

@zenith pawn ironically, I think the keyboard space needs something more akin to frequency response of the keyboards. I feel that would help a whole lot.

[green marsh]

they already have force curves and sound demos

[sleek lily]

Sound demos are super non normalized

[green marsh]

just like headphone sounds demos

i think keyboards have a lot more counfounding variables in terms of the output sound as opposed to headphones

[zenith pawn]

What, I said to measure input latency

to remove the switch from the equation

[green marsh]

[zenith pawn]

because afaik the mechanical switch causes a non-ngeligible latency increase, and that could change the input latency if you use different switches

[sleek lily]

The input is the 5v going across that switch

[green marsh]

the switch is part of the keyboard

[sleek lily]

The 5v comes from your usb

[zenith pawn]

they're usually removable

[green marsh]

every keyboard is using a switch

you cant use the keyboard without it so whats the point

[sleek lily]

Switch doesn't add latency either

[zenith pawn]

To isolate the latency from the PCB from the latency of the switch you happen to be using

[warm scarab]

bro

holy shit

[sleek lily]

It is just a switch

[warm scarab]

its a fucking keyboard

get over it

[sleek lily]

It just either connects 5v to one side or doesnr

[green marsh]

i think hes talking about the pre travel between press and actuation

[zenith pawn]

have you seen a mechanical keyboard switch mechanism

[warm scarab]

get hall effect

problem solved

shut

[zenith pawn]

scam

and lame

[warm scarab]

why

[zenith pawn]

because I don't like it

[green marsh]

fr

[warm scarab]

what of hall effect is a scam

[green marsh]

latencucks deserver hall effect

[sleek lily]

Yea, it's just a plastic bit that pushes a metal leaf against another

[warm scarab]

zero latency zero mechanical issue 100% customizeable tech

[zenith pawn]

they just all suck in some way idk why

[sleek lily]

It's just a wire basically that's connected or not connected

[warm scarab]

that is a cope

[green marsh]

ok buddy

[warm scarab]

lmao

[green marsh]

"i dont like it" means its a scam now

[zenith pawn]

that was a pretty obvious joke

I thought it would be obvious

[warm scarab]

no

it isnt

ok anyways

[sleek lily]

Keyboard switches are just switches

They aren't special

[warm scarab]

means hall effect is the ultimate solution

glad we got that over

[sleek lily]

They're super simple mechanically

[warm scarab]

cant believe someone has to explain this in a discord

[zenith pawn]

solution to what

[warm scarab]

its so fucking over

[sleek lily]

Yea, I should have specified mechanical

[green marsh]

ur latencuck woes

[warm scarab]

delay and activation points

[zenith pawn]

i didn't say i have a problem with input latency. i just want to get more information about it

i think it's an interesting thing to look into

[warm scarab]

its a switch dude

[zenith pawn]

if that's what you think

[warm scarab]

yes

[sleek lily]

I think they are thinking a digital like x bit signal is transmitted over each switch @warm scarab

[warm scarab]

its what I think

it gives you 5v when it activates

doesnt when it doesnt activate

[sleek lily]

It's just a single bit electrical state

[zenith pawn]

the mechanism cannot be instant

[sleek lily]

One end has 1 or 0 represented by 5v or 0v

[green marsh]

if you have a fast enough solenoid it might as well be

[sleek lily]

It's instant the moment it makes contact

[warm scarab]

what kind of mechanism is your switch man

[zenith pawn]

which is probably why rtings doesnt give a shit and just does it like a normal person

[warm scarab]

its instant

it activates in an instant

when the key gets to where it needs to be to activate

[zenith pawn]

i dont think this is true

[warm scarab]

it is absolutely the case

[sleek lily]

The moment there is contact electricity flows because you know have a short from that point of 5v to the other point

[zenith pawn]

have you measured it

[sleek lily]

That's just how electricity works

[warm scarab]

I literally cannot give an answer to this question that isn't an insult

[zenith pawn]

pretty sure ive seen poeple get different latencies depending on how strong the leaf spring is

[warm scarab]

that is activation point

not activation latency

[sleek lily]

No, the latency is from the controller

Not the switch

[zenith pawn]

no it is not

[sleek lily]

The switch is literally just a switch

[green marsh]

either way it doesnt matter

[zenith pawn]

how is this even an argument

are we even talking about the same things

[sleek lily]

It literally is just a wire that is either contacting or not

[warm scarab]

dude you are the one arguing electricity isn't fast enough for you

what the fuck do you want us to say

[zenith pawn]

i can't tell if you guys are trolling or not

that's not even remotely close to what i said at all

[warm scarab]

no I cannot believe this is a real discussion on discord

[green marsh]

bro ur the one whos trolling rn

[warm scarab]

do you understand how a switch works

[zenith pawn]

there is a thing that moves

is that not a thing we agree on

[sleek lily]

I think he's just confused. I think the confusion is just he thinks the switch passes some digital signal and does some more complex mechanism

[zenith pawn]

no i do not

[warm scarab]

you move it

[livid ruin]

mechanical also can have latency, the metal parts have to make contact which takes a while

[warm scarab]

you are the force

that moves this

[zenith pawn]

exactly what i am trying to say

[warm scarab]

it doesnt

because if it does

[sleek lily]

The reality is it's just a switch. It just has 5v at one leaf and 0 at the other. When 5v contacts the other leaf it has 5v at both ends

[warm scarab]

that just makes the activation distance lower

there isnt some contraption that moves with momentum that your finger doesnt provide

[green marsh]

he thinks the 2mm travel distances causes a significant amount of latency

[warm scarab]

everything is dictated by the mechanical output of your finger

[sleek lily]

It just literally makes contact it doesn't

[warm scarab]

thats like not even the point

[sleek lily]

How fast you press the switch isn't a keyboard variable

[warm scarab]

if there is a distance between the two contacts

[sleek lily]

That's just a you variable

[warm scarab]

that doesnt add delay

that makes the activation point lower

there is no delay added by this

[sleek lily]

^

[warm scarab]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/382801814547988481/1399542920515948704/redgifac.gif?ex=6889616a&is=68880fea&hm=65107714a9a66c99f04befe3cee780d5e6231a296cda08df905c3787d02d0028&

you can just use your eyes to understand and tell this

[sleek lily]

The second those leafs contact you have 5v at both ends

[warm scarab]

the mechanical part glides alongside the fin of the switch

and when its on x point

it reaches contact

[sleek lily]

It doesn't matter if you have 1nm of travel or 1km of travel

[green marsh]

i mean there is a delay between the instant you press the keyswitch and when the leafs make contact

[warm scarab]

if it doesnt do this that means the switch is damaged or malfunctioning

[sleek lily]

The moment the contacts touch you have signal at both ends in the form of 5v

[warm scarab]

there isnt

its faster than your finger

[green marsh]

no

[warm scarab]

if you want to measure that potential you'd have to test with solenoid

and get a reading of like

0.0001ms

[green marsh]

yeah but thats what hes talking about

[warm scarab]

you'd have to have a gun for fingers

[sleek lily]

You'd just be measuring travel distance at that point

[warm scarab]

that is cope

that is inhuman levels of testing

[green marsh]

ik

[sleek lily]

It's not late cuz it's just mechanical mothin which just depends on how hard you press it and how fast you press it

[warm scarab]

that is testing 50khz frequency response of a headphone

so you can make sure you can listen to 50khz

[green marsh]

but im just saying thats the "latency" he thinks is significant

[zenith pawn]

somehow nobody except kvetinky here has remotely comprehended anything i said

[warm scarab]

I get what you mean

[warm scarab]

I understood what you mean perfectly

[green marsh]

no we get it

[zenith pawn]

clearly you don't

[warm scarab]

I am conveying to you that its completely meaningless

[green marsh]

we just dont get why you think its important

[livid ruin]

yes you won’t notice the latency or delay but it still exists, the material doesn’t straighten up instantly

[warm scarab]

its faster than your fingers

so its instant in human testing

[sleek lily]

It's more like testing the latency of a headphone by putting a multimeter at both ends of the source and seeing how long it takes for the source to turn on tbh. It's just pointless

[warm scarab]

if you had a gun pointed towards the switch then yeah i bet there would be a delay

[sleek lily]

The result will be the same in all instances and it won't be measuring what you want

[green marsh]

yeah if youre talking about the actual spring then no fucking shot you think theres a delay there

[livid ruin]

even when you move your finger as slowly as possible across the actuation/forces the material has a delay

[warm scarab]

he is talking about the leaf on the gif I sent making contact with the pin

[warm scarab]

this is cope

and untrue

[sleek lily]

No

[zenith pawn]

this is exactly what i expect from an audiophile community

[green marsh]

this is crazy 💀

[warm scarab]

dude

[livid ruin]

you’re saying it has 0 latency?

[warm scarab]

you dont get to take the "you guys are audiophiles" high ground

[green marsh]

this is exactly what i expect from anyone with a brain

[warm scarab]

after saying this

[zenith pawn]

you can't seem to do anything except misrepresent my argument and say i'm stupid for a thing i didn't say

so i'm out

[warm scarab]

I am saying the latency is in 0.0001s in worst case scenario for human input

[livid ruin]

so it is an additional latency

[green marsh]

any way you try to represent your arguement youre wrong

[livid ruin]

i didn’t say it’s noticeable

[warm scarab]

its literally within error margins of testing equipment at this stage

that is how meaningless it is

[green marsh]

basically immeasurable

[sleek lily]

Besides the ever so slightly delay in voltage going to the other end caused by the capacitance of the leaf, which is immeasurably small.

[pallid wind]

I got my first dac!

[green marsh]

nice