virtual-reality

[rapid otter]

But you only play VR chat so it should be fine right ?

[weak bluff]

Vrchat is poorly optimized

Just ouch

[haughty thistle]

I'm running the Aero at 30PPD (so one setting below native). Still looks much sharper then the Reverb G2, but at least most games run at a decent framerate in that setting. I use native for Simulation titles

[weak bluff]

And its one of rare vr games that are cpu hog by world and avatar stuff

[rapid otter]

Boneworkers is CPU bound too

Well a lot of games are tbh

I had a r5 2600 and hlvr, Boneworks were running poorly, where in flat screen games this cou is fine

[haughty thistle]

In VR it's mostly Boneworks and VRC that are CPU bound. Usually it's the GPU that get's pinned way before the CPU does in VR

[rapid otter]

Yeah yeah but it's a but more important than in flat screen

[weak bluff]

Its like many vr games have pretty poor multicore support

Vrchat while can make use of many cores still have strong bound on single core performance

[oblique hare]

is my Ryzen 5 3600 limiting my performance? my gpu is a 3060 ti, my link cable is usb 3 5gbps, my refresh rate is set to 80 and I have my quality on the reconmended one

some games i struggle to hit the 80 mark while staying atound 50-60

[haughty thistle]

When the bottleneck is at encoding/transfer on Quest Link/Air Link/VD, it won't show up in the framerate of the game.
But Quest Link is still heavy on the CPU, and if the game also requires lots of CPU power, well, then there's your problem

[weak bluff]

maybe you should investigate which part is pulling your performance down

this can include cpu, gpu, link performance, bandwidth, throttle, latency

[haughty thistle]

Regarding this cable, I did end up ordering one, and it arrived to day. Works just like the official Varjo one. Although, I should mention that the connector casing on the Lindy cable was a bit bulkier, making for a tighter fit in the HMD end. All in all, for 100 bucks, still a cheaper replacement cable then one for the Index xD

[rapid otter]

What is DP 1.4 alternate channel support ?

[haughty thistle]

USB Type-C has a feature known as DisplayPort Alternative Channel (no idea why they named it that, but there you go). It doesn't specify what specific version of the DisplayPort spec is being used, just that the port/cable supports DisplayPort via USB Type-C. DP 1.4 is just the Version 1.4 of the DisplayPort Spec, which at a full 4 lane connection allows for 8K@60Hz and 4K@120Hz (32.4Gbit/s)

[rapid otter]

But you need an adapter right

Thanks CB

[haughty thistle]

A number of Monitors have support for DP Alternative Channel, meaning you can just plug such a USB-C cable directly into the monitor to use one cable for the video signal and an integrated USB hub. A number of laptops also implement such ports, especially ones that have an AMD CPU (due to the Lack of Thunderbolt on such laptops)

[rapid otter]

Ho this is neat

[haughty thistle]

Or you can use a sort of Linkbox, like one that is included with the Varjo Aero, that takes in DisplayPort, USB and Power and injects it all into a USB-C Port...

[rapid otter]

Man do i love USB C it's so perfect

I had to say it 😝

[haughty thistle]

Well, on the one hand, USB-C makes a lot of things easier, but one area where it makes things a lot more complicated is finding the right cable. I had to hunt down multiple different stores before I found a cable that matched the specs needed for the Varjo Aero. Once I had the part Number, it was easy to find on Amazon, but none of the stores search functions were particularly great, and most listing doesn't even include the supported data streams as specs, instead opting to just write them somewhere in the Text...

[rapid otter]

Yep but i have to say you had a very specific need

Usually all USB C 3 cables are fast enough for a lot of things

[haughty thistle]

Well... most USB-C Cables are rated either for USB transfer only or for Thunderbolt...

[rapid otter]

Yes

[haughty thistle]

Thunderbolt, due to it's very strict timing requirements, doesn't really support cables that are longer then 1m. There is this one fiber-optical cable from Corning, but it doesn't transfer power...

So try finding a long cable that supports both USB data transfer, DisplayPort and is longer then 1m. All stuff that is supported by the specs, but finding a cable that supports it is the problem. Mostly you'll find cables that are rated for USB transfers only (Like the Quest Link or Vive Focus Streaming cabke)

[rapid otter]

USB power is nice too

Especially for a quest

[haughty thistle]

A lot of devices actually require power via the cable, so not having it is pretty much only ok for docks and such, where you'd have an external power input anyways...

[rapid otter]

I think we'll see long fast cable with power in the future

Just gotta be patient

[haughty thistle]

Oh, and btw. as I just mentioned it, the Vive Streaming cable looks to be exactly the same as the Oculus Link cable, just without the Oculus branding. Same price as well ($79.99)

[rapid otter]

Official Vive cable ?

[haughty thistle]

Yeah: https://business.vive.com/us/accessory/vive-focus3-streaming-cable/

Although, actually... Oculus has rated their cable for "only" USB 3.1 Gen1 speed (5Gbit/s), whereas the Vive one is rated for USB 3.1 Gen2 speed (10Gbit/s), so double the USB transfer speed

[rapid otter]

Maybe an upgraded version

[haughty thistle]

Could be. Based on pictures, I'd guess it's the same supplier. Might be that the Vive one has a different chip inside that is faster, and Oculus is just cheaping out...

[rapid otter]

Chip ?

In the cable, isn't it just wires ?

[haughty thistle]

These are all active fiber-optical cables. They have a chip in each end that converge the signals from all the different Pinas in the connector and send it down a super fast optical link, and on the other end those packets are then untangled and sent out the connector. The actual fiber-optical strands may be cheap, but each parallel strand you put in, makes the cable more expensive as they all have to be aligned and whatnot, so most of these cables go for just a couple of strands and converge the incoming parallel signals into a super fast serial one and convert them back afaik

I mean, Linus talked about this in their Corning 50m Thunderbolt cable showcase, where theirs has only 4 strands, two for each direction...

[rapid otter]

So that's why there's no power

Because no electrical wires

👍

[haughty thistle]

https://youtu.be/Dy312cUHumk

[rapid otter]

But is the latency really that bad with regular cables ?

[haughty thistle]

Well, for Thunderbolt, yes. but not just that, cross-talk also get's more of a problem, the longer the cable is and the faster the link inside the cable is.

Also, any copper cable acts like a resistor, so the longer the cable is, the weaker your signal becomes. That's why any USB cable longer then like 4m comes with a signal booster attached to it, so that the signal is still readable by whatever device is plugged in on the other end

[rapid otter]

Like when you use a longer straw it becomes harder to get the juice passing thru

[haughty thistle]

Yup

A Signal booster usually just uses the remaining signal to control some sort of switch (like a transistor), so they don't really add any latency, but they do add cost and are usually quite bulky. Plus, if the signal is too noisy or too weak due to cross-talk or the general cable length, a booster doesn't do anything. So that#s where fiber-optics come in, which allow for crazy long cables, but without copper strands to transport power, they are signal carries only. So cables like the Vive Streaming, Oculus Link or the Varjo Aero cable do still carry some copper strands for power, but all the data is transferred via optics

[rapid otter]

Fiber optic cables can be pretty much infinite if there's no light leak

[haughty thistle]

Eh. You will at some point run into timing issues. The reason Corning has released their Thunderbolt 3 cable with a maximum length of 50m is because of the time it takes for light to travel more then 50m round trip would be more then the typical PCIe timing windows would allow for. So making the cable longer then 50m would result in strange behaviour

And even if that wasn't the case, the light still encounters some resistance, so after a certain length, you'd still need signal repeaters. It's just that this certain length is beyond what any consumer might encounter. Like oh, I dunno, beyond the 100m mark?

[rapid otter]

0.000000016 seconds or 0.00016 MS to travel 50 meters in a straight line, so something like x1.5 since (assuming its traveling like in the picture )it's basically 0.00024 to travel 50 meters

Wikipedia : it is not unusual for optical systems to go over 100 kilometers

So for a 100 meter it should be no issue

[weak bluff]

undersea cable exist

so

here u go

[haughty thistle]

Watch Linus's video about what I meant regarding the timing issues. Regarding the length, well, I said beyond 100m. That doesn't mean a signal booster is required at exactly 100m. More like undersea and cross-country fiber lines do on occasion need signal boosters because of their massive lengths

[weak bluff]

fun fact data transfer with less latency in vacuum

thats how starlink can benefit to connect from one satellite to another

[haughty thistle]

Yeah sure, let's build hyper-loop tunnels, but just for laser light data transfers 😉

[weak bluff]

not too bad

there is a country that have internet depend on rail company

like they use railway to also carry cable

2 birds in 1 store

yeah its in Armenia

so why not hyperloop and data at same time

[haughty thistle]

I was more referring to building small diameter vacuum tunnels just for data transfers xD
Hyperloop in itself isn't a bad idea, just not very practical, as you'd need to pull a vacuum every time passengers get on-board the train

Thing is, it doesn't matter if the fiber line is inside a vacuum tunnel or not, as long as the light travels down some material. It only makes a difference once you stop shooting the laser down a fiber and instead shoot it down a vacuum tunnel. Only problem then is, you can't have any bends in your line...

[weak bluff]

its more expensive than fiber

and maintenence

so... unfortunately its not feasible

also latency difference is not enough to justify the cost

people may benefit from this probably stock traiders who live in Europe and want to buy what is happening in wallstreet

which latency usually go at >150ms

[haughty thistle]

It was more of a joke. The whole thing just isn't feasible, just because of the limitation of no bends. The Earth is curved so at any length where it would make a measurable difference, you'd probably get issues with the earths curvature...

[weak bluff]

there is always relays

and mirrors

[haughty thistle]

Eh...

More expenses...

[weak bluff]

also it can just be like fiber

but without fiber

yeah its just

not realistic

[solemn birch]

Do you guys think the rtx 3050 will be able to run games like half life alyx? And do you think the gpu will be worth it to get

It’s costs $250 US

[formal willow]

considering the market and how bad 6500 xt is uhh if you can get it for 250 yes and I think it runs alyx at leasti with low settings also depends on your headset

[weak bluff]

it will run fine

i dont think any RTX card have issue

at worst case you will run good on low settings

[restive ivy]

Wishful thinking here I'd like to see a qdoled on the next index hmd

It fixes all the reasons that valve opted out of oled

But doubt it will happen as they would have to rely on samsung to make the displays and valve usually doesn't like relying on other companies

[weak bluff]

now that hardware been cheaper i want to see someone revive WMR quality at much lower price

image vr headset for masses that is like quest 2 but with cutting cost off the computer and the quality back we can get even cheaper headset

[restive ivy]

Honestly would love to see that however they cannot use the mixed reality portal

Unless the seriously change how it works

[weak bluff]

back then Lenovo Explorer was cheapest WMR and at least it was better than first generation of PCVR

[restive ivy]

The mixed reality portal is nearly unusable

[weak bluff]

they dont have to release under WMR license

they can use open SteamVR API

[restive ivy]

Exactly

[weak bluff]

and maybe possible console level of optimization running VR OS

hope SteamOS improves that way

[restive ivy]

Atm Linux is not capable of the vr api

[weak bluff]

technically you can do a lot of go around as long its on Vulkan API

its a long complicated process

[restive ivy]

I think atm all vr renderer use a direct vr compositor

It would take alot of heavy lifting to design a Linux compatible compositor

[weak bluff]

there is already an attempt but it costs hefty price with horrible Intel Tiger Lake https://simulavr.com/blog/technical-overview/

someone should try this again with AMD APU with RDNA2

and yes it runs steamvr

does not even look fancy

[restive ivy]

Well funny you mention that

[weak bluff]

sensor could be cheaper

but they made a linux distro for vr

very cool project

https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula

[restive ivy]

Rumors are that valve is developing a standalone vr headset

Labeled the deckard

And uses the hardware of the steam deck

[weak bluff]

valve have good enough power to make AMD semi-custom deal so if they managed to get custom APU for steam deck i bet they can on vr too

[restive ivy]

To run full desktop vr games

[weak bluff]

however valve is not the type that make budget friendly headset

all they do must be flagship

they push limit

[restive ivy]

Rumored was starting at $800

For the headset alone

And it would be capable of being compatible with base station setups aswell as inside out

[weak bluff]

thats fine

well its flagship after all

it seems every hardware valve make comes with game that make use of full capability of that hardware

in response of valve intel valve made half life alyx to boost it

now steam deck get ridiculous support for linux

i wonder if next vr headset from valve comes with something like that

[restive ivy]

Honestly looking foward to my deck in feb

And with it the release of steam os 3

Bc we've been drowning with os 2 for too long

Also with the release of os3 we may see a change in the steamvr steam browser thing

As it is literally just big picture mode

In vr

[weak bluff]

lol slow down i still havent max out my quest 2 resolution yet

i just need a gpu for it

[restive ivy]

Honestly the resolution on the index is my only gripe atm

[weak bluff]

this is why the best deal you can get at best quality is Vive Pro 2 + valve light house + knuckles

and its cheaper than index in fact

yet better

[restive ivy]

Ooh no

I'd still rather the index

[weak bluff]

its an odd combo yes

[restive ivy]

The other features far outweigh the resolution

The headphones are phenomenal

[weak bluff]

but ya there is your option

[restive ivy]

The 144hz is unmatched at the price point

[weak bluff]

for us poor vr gamers i want cheap alternative to finger tracking ugh

community have been really good at cheap full body

[restive ivy]

Well fret not

[weak bluff]

but no good cheap finger tracking yet

[restive ivy]

Things are coming

[weak bluff]

can we get at least a cheap lidar sensor attach on controller

[restive ivy]

Honestly another thing that I don't know what valve is gonna do about it is that the index controllers only linearly track fingers

No side to side

[weak bluff]

idk

do you have better idea?

[restive ivy]

As I said

I've no clue

[weak bluff]

i dont think so its already really good

maybe like

make mini light house attatch on finger

reflector sticker with camera?

[restive ivy]

Also no thumb positional

[weak bluff]

infrared camera on finger?

[restive ivy]

Unless your are touching it

[weak bluff]

even if they release you think it get instantly outdated by brain controlled VR?

[restive ivy]

Valve is really really into that actually

Gabe goes into full detail about theyr studies on that

I think full finger tracking could be done with alot more sensors

But it would be unreliable

[weak bluff]

lol you cant even do ASL sign for "R"

[restive ivy]

I personally think we cannot abandon the controller concept until we have brain interfaces can interpret controls

Then we can move to gloves

[weak bluff]

not a fan of gloves alone vr should always have buttons and nubs

[haughty thistle]

The point where gloves can replace controllers is the moment a glove can simulate you holding a controller. Because let's face it, most VR titles are not going to support gloves unless gloves have somewhat of a market adoption...

[weak bluff]

yeah not like the etee one

the etee controller beats the essential buttons like that

[restive ivy]

I saw one design that had controllers that strap to your chest

[weak bluff]

it only makes it worse than HTC wand

[restive ivy]

And you use gloves until you need a specific input

Then you grab the controller off your chest and then you have buttons again

And the controllers are on a wire

That retracts them

[weak bluff]

not a fan of that

[restive ivy]

Yeah me either but

It would be a quick and easy solution to the problem of input

[haughty thistle]

Imagine using a wired controller... Soo 2005...

[weak bluff]

not a fan of those weird tacky controllers

i just want controller with console like buttons while full hand tracking

[restive ivy]

I was mistaken not wires

Magnets

And it was in ready player one

With the loyalty centers

So in the scene of ready player one where wade is talking Nolan and he has to turn on the emotion suppression thing

He's holding a pair of controllers along with haptic gloves

So having a readily accessible controller on your chest you can grab to get controller inputs that can't be done with hand gestures would be a decent solution to the problem

Not wanting to do that is kindof having the cake and eating it

In social games the hand gesture controls should be fine

But something more complicated like zenith

Would require dedicated inputs

That is without heavy ui work

Fastest solution is tracking gloves with controllers

But at some point applications will get to where it isn't needed

[gloomy crater]

So. Here I am sitting in my first day of college classes. My database management teacher has a valve index sitting on top of a cabinet in the corner of the room and I can't stop wondering what it's for

[rustic garnet]

crazy guess but it might be for a valve index

[gloomy crater]

I asked her and she didn't even know what it was. Turns out it belongs to my linux operations teacher, the same guy who had the windows activation watermark on his screen the entire class. I'll have to ask him what it's for on Monday

[gloomy crater]

I've just been reminded of the time I had a VRC meetup but forgot to charge my controllers so I ran an extension cord up my back with USBC cables plugged in at the end that ran down my arms into my controllers. It was really scuffed and I unplugged them by accident a bunch but it worked

[granite stump]

you can, if you are using an advanced gesture avatar you can, though most people just take 2 fingers and rotate them to face themself

[weak bluff]

Yeah that does exist

But then it's just your choice becomes limited

[granite stump]

The Helping Hands VR community has a lot of avatars with advanced gestures. or if you have a quest 2 and are able to use Link (I think it may work with HTC Vive too) you can just hand track, though it is a lil buggy when your hands leave view of the cameras

[granite stump]

plus if you learn the avatar you can unlock pretty much every gesture you can use irl, if it supports that. Or if it doesnt you can just take the avatar to unity or another avatar editing app and create those gestures for it, though that is much more difficult imo.

[weak bluff]

i am aware

its just still require you to get used to something different

the problem is you cant sign the way you always have been

and such solution is just a compromise thats temporary until it can truly track our fingers fully accurate

[granite stump]

talking about the hand tracking? or the advanced avatars

[granite stump]

that is true, but its gotten so much better than previously

[weak bluff]

just that i cant cross finger R so i had to use alternative instead

[granite stump]

Oculus hand tracking works nearly flawless. The cameras, if clean, will pick up every movement of your fingers nearly exact. The only issue is if you tuck your thumb under your fingers I dont think it will track that very well

[weak bluff]

and alternative is not permanent solution

i had to twist my hand instead

the "R" sign

[granite stump]

I could send you an avatar I use thats advanced if you want. It works great for me and is quest/pc

[weak bluff]

i know that exist im just saying the avatar that do that does not reflect the gesture you do everyday

in real life

you do it accurately in VR

but you are not IRL

and that is the issue

accurate gesture avatar is just temporary solution

[granite stump]

yeah, thats why I somewhat hate vr sign

[weak bluff]

and im afraid it causes bad habits

[granite stump]

its builds bad habits to use irl and when translating to irl you may find difficulties in signing because youve become to accustomed to pressing buttons

the best way to combat that is to either get valve controllers, or hand track. It builds a habit that isnt nearly as bad and is much more accurate to real life

though valve controllers are still extremely limited too

[weak bluff]

yeah but even valve controller cant fully cover ASL

well there are just minor so i guess minor issue

[granite stump]

yeah thats why I dont suggest. the 150 USD pricetag isnt worth the limitations if youre trying to use asl in vrc

[weak bluff]

and i know there are people dedicate their life in VRChat especially the mutes

this may cause a dialect-like situation

[granite stump]

yeah

ive noticed it actually has

[weak bluff]

it sounds weird too lol

Quest dialect

[granite stump]

lol yeah

but you can really notice who is and isnt native to using sign irl based on their 'dialect' in vr

especially how long someone has been using sign irl based off if they use more 'outdated' signs or not when using vr

[weak bluff]

idk if its good or bad if after we get perfect fingler tracking and dialect remains

it just create new dialect that will live on

[granite stump]

id say probably pretty rough

[weak bluff]

ofc people used to dialect are not so keen going to standard

happens every language

[granite stump]

the vr 'dialects' ive noticed are really bad when translated to irl

it seems almost ailenated from actual sign

as a semi-native asl signer ive been confused from these extremely different variations of 'dialect' from one person to another

just the letter R shows the true difference in these dialect like differences. Ive noticed people sign R in around 8 different ways, though 4 of them were nearly the same

but yeah, its definitely confusing

[weak bluff]

at same time i find it cool internet can create dialect

dialect can not just created from isolated geography

[granite stump]

yeah, its quite interesting how the internet is

[oblique hare]

Does anyone have any VR game recommendations?
ive played the usual, Job Sim, RecRoom, VrChat, beat saber
but im looking for somthin new

Quest has some exclusives and is just the headset, for the rest you will need a PC + headset

Valve (steam) makes a headset called the index, full kit goes for 999 USD
HTC Makes headsets
Meta makes headsets, like the Meta Quest 2, and the Meta Rift S (Discontinued)

those are the three major ones tbh
theres a bunch of startups and other companies making vr, but the space is mostly dominated by Meta, Valve, and HTC

which one?

Ill just send here

https://www.htc.com/us/
https://www.oculus.com/
https://store.steampowered.com/valveindex

find the one you like and bookmark it

i have so many newegg bookmaks 😭

[weak bluff]

Have you explored normal games with vr mods?

Like games but you get vr capability in vr

[haughty thistle]

Hitmen 3 PCVR mode is supposedly launching today? Saw their roadmap reveal from a couple of days ago today and PCVR mode was marked with a release date of Jan 20th...

Jup: https://ioisupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/4417185915025
So if you're a fan of Hitman, you can play it in VR starting today (once the Patch 3.100 is out)

They list the Reverb G2 as "incompatible" though
I'll test their claims...

[oblique hare]

Nah cause vorpx is expensive

[granite stump]

If you have a good enough system and like the catagory, onward, pavlov, and H3 are good fun!

Also, fun announcement I only realized before sleeping in vrc with a friend, bro, pt is WEIRD. It felt like I was drunk only where they touched my avatar. It felt like fuzzy and warm and omg I love it. Anybody else out there experience this phenomena?

[oblique hare]

i tried to sleep in vrc before i just could never get comfortable

and the cables

arck

[granite stump]

I switch to my oculus quest 2 because its a much slimmer model and I have pillows to cushion in comfortably level with my head, but yeah its quite lovely when you get to a world that doesnt have screeching children

[oblique hare]

i have a nice world i liek to go in

and my main headset is a Glorified Rift S (Quest 2 + Link Cable)

[granite stump]

Ive found winter solace is a great world

[granite stump]

lol yeah

[oblique hare]

Rainy Road is ncec for me

[granite stump]

I really like that world

[oblique hare]

ye i like the bed has seats

and they put ur charecter in the lay down emote

[granite stump]

The sounds of the rain and van is just mwa

[granite stump]

Yeah

[oblique hare]

I natrually lay on my side holding a pillow so its a strugle to get comfortable on my back

cant lay in a fetal posistion with plastic on ur face

[granite stump]

Thats fair, I typically lay on my side too and ive found resting the vr on a stronger pillow beside the pillow my head is on keeps it supported so I can see fine and is comfortable

[oblique hare]

might try it on the weekend idk

i might find a video to play on the in game tv cause i nornmally sleep with somthing on

[granite stump]

Personally I slept great because I was able to fall asleep feeling the phantom presence of a friend. I suggest it though!

[oblique hare]

cries in few friends

my friends lists consists of irl friends and a few others i met randomly

but mostly irl friends

[granite stump]

The deaf/mute/sign language community is a great way to learn a new thing and find friends. Its where all my friends are from lol

[oblique hare]

i already have a weighted blanket so maybe the headset will just provide a new enviornment

ive seen some people say they slept in minecraft via Vivecraft

[granite stump]

Yeah maybe, I hadnt used my weighted blanket when I slept so maybe ill try it tonight!

[oblique hare]

i use mine almost every night, its hard to drift off without it unless im super super tired

[granite stump]

Thats neat, though I feel the world l be too bright and invasive

[oblique hare]

brain.exe will stop working when i wake up in a place that isnt anywhere ive been

cause that world isnt similar to any place ive been irl

and i hope the cables wont wrap around me

[granite stump]

lol yeah I was a lil confused when I woke up in a room with an overflow of rgb lol

[oblique hare]

my friends and i: live 5 minutes away by car
also us: ahha vr chat go brr

[granite stump]

If you have a pulley system, or just place the cable at the top of your bed and has some slack youll be fine

[oblique hare]

i dont have a pulley system

i do have the cable tied off in several spots though

[granite stump]

Vrc is just a new and neat way to interact with people tbh

[oblique hare]

its easier than meeting people irl i will say

i do bettter online

than irl

[granite stump]

If you tie it off to the headrest on your bed, no tangling issues for you!

[oblique hare]

but still dislike meeting new people

[granite stump]

Same

[oblique hare]

i have the cable strapped to my headset , and then a lot of slack until it reaches my desk, at the front of my desk its tied off again so i can smoothly organise it with my other cables, from there they all run to the usb ports on the back of my pc

made sure to keep my USB 3.2 Port clear for the vr

i tried to sleep in vrc several times

i get really dedacated and then start laying down and eventually give up

[granite stump]

lol

[oblique hare]

i wish I had a silk strap, not the eliete or standard

[granite stump]

Try the world Rest and Sleep (insert chinese?)

[oblique hare]

more like a soft comforting strap

[granite stump]

It has around 200 active players

[oblique hare]

i tried 2-3 different worlds

[granite stump]

And calming music plays in the background

I personally use the world to sleep

[oblique hare]

most of my attempts were made in rainy road

[granite stump]

Plus theres a dark blue room, an orange room, and a whatever room

[oblique hare]

i had better luck turning on night mode before enabling oculus link (aka glorified rift mode)

[haughty thistle]

Thing is, sleeping in VR isn't really that good for your brain. The human mind needs proper rest, but it doesn't go into deep-sleep when there's light constantly shining on the eyes and too much noise coming in the ears. There's research that has been done on this (not with VR, more with light pollution in general)

I mean, everyone their own, but it is how it is...

[oblique hare]

i fell asleep once or twice for like an hour or two

and i usually woke up witth the headset beside me completely or almost off

[haughty thistle]

It's more like a nap really...

[oblique hare]

ye

then i went back to bed without it

and was fine

[granite stump]

Huh didnt know that, I presume I slept good because apparently a kid joined while I was asleep and ear friked the lobby then left and I slept through it.

[oblique hare]

any other tips for being comfortable?

[serene sail]

Any recommendations on the best VR setup?

[haughty thistle]

Depends on your budget

You could spend literal thousands on the VR headset alone or spend as little as 300 bucks for a full setup

[oblique hare]

what makes the index far more expensive compared to things like the Meta Rift S, Meta Rift, HTC Vive, etc

[weak bluff]

extra stuff from high refresh screen, milimiters accurate light house, finger trackign controller

its a solid all round in standard specs

[haughty thistle]

Because Meta is subsidising hardware with User data and software sales. Keep in mind that the main business of Meta is still advertisments.
The Vive is discontinued so that makes it cheaper. All other headsets just are more expensive due to more expensive components (like Lighthouse tracking), no subsidisation and well... because they don't sell the devices at a loss

[weak bluff]

also the method of tracking is not so cheap

the quest and rift are cheaper while in high spect is well... Meta

because you are paying with data instead of extra money

[flint ridge]

Honestly I think that the headset at least is overpriced

[lofty sundial]

I mean is the index even that expensive compared to others(headset alone not the 1k full set), ye a bit maybe. But its also one of those ''I suck at absolutely nothing, but Im not a king in anything but audio/mic'' also controllers.

[trail ember]

how did my games start running like dog shit after going from rift cv1 to index? i even tried setting the resolution to match the cv1 and the fps is still low

[zinc swift]

ai im hella new to vr but i jus wanna play some simple games, what is a VERY budget friendly headset that you would reccomend. Btw please something like the oculus quest cuz ion got a pc that supports vr

i may be being way too picky

i have no clue

[granite stump]

yeah, the amount of issues with the lenses controller triggers/buttons. the dying pixels, the base stations failing, and many more issues has somewhat made the headset not worth it unless you seriously have the money, or collect vr headsets as a thing.

[granite stump]

Oculus Quest 2

at 300 dollars its the top of the game

the only issue is that you are selling your data and privacy along with the 300 dollars, hence why its so cheap.

but with the supposed hope that you wont have to pay your data in the future, its an overall good headset for price and general feel

personally I cant say anything bad about the hardware itself. Its a good headset for the average vr joe and feels good while using.

[weak bluff]

Its a necessary overengineering

Before Index people were only getting low quality headset and some say at this rate vr will die

People werent able to get a realistic probability of getting high quality headset to the consumer hands

This is why in Linus review video on Index he says "Maybe VR isn't head after all" indicating Index os proof high quality VR is possible

Its not designed for mass adoption but designed to proof if companies tried hard VR can have space in the industry for gaming

[haughty thistle]

If you're talking about the Meta account stuff. Forget it. The "Meta" accounts are prolly gonna be just the same as the current Facebook accounts, difference being that they are called different and maybe have support for usernames. Their plan is very likely to unify the login systems amongst all their platforms (Facebook, XR, Instagram, WhatsApp) into one system, and call that "Meta Account". Privacy wise, it won't change anything. Maybe it makes it even worse (considering that the privacy policy of Instagram is even worse then the one from Facebook)

[harsh niche]

Hopefully one day in the near or distant future Facebook will get sued out of existence

It’ll stop all the soccer moms from spending 4 hours of their day on it 😆

[haughty thistle]

Or at least their XR endavours are gatekept so that competition has the ability to even exist... (which, let's face it, is what is the more likely thing to happen with the FTC having a close eye on their XR acquisitions now)

[harsh niche]

Is xr mixed reality?

Oh extended reality wtf

I didn’t even know that was a term

[haughty thistle]

XR is the overarching term for AR/MR/VR

AR is when a transparent screen overlays information over the real world
MR is when you see a camera feed of the real world overlayed with virtual information
VR is when you see a completely virtual world on a pair of screens

At least these are my definitions of these terms

So, as per my definition, the Lynx R1 is a MR/VR headset, whatever Apple and Google are doing on their phones is MR and the only true AR HMDs are the Magic Leap, Google Glass and Microsoft HoloLens

[past tulip]

Does anybody here happen to know where the best place to buy an Oculus Quest 2 in Canada is? I'm currently looking at the 128GB version at Best Buy for $400, but is there anything better?

[weak bluff]

facebook was made for mental unhuman people like Mark Zucc to live

truly says in the platform

[versed carbon]

and the Facebook Research Karens ®

[granite stump]

Thats the correct price. I presume you mean 400 CAD and thats the exact price it should be.

[glad sand]

I really like the Index, it’s super robust in what it does, has never randomly failed me (knock on wood lol) and the tracking and overall experience is seamless. Some of my friends got motion sick with the Vive and Rift S (especially jeez that thing sucked) but that hasn’t been an issue for the dozens of people that have used an Index

[oblique hare]

im considering buying the index via paypal cause paypal lets u pay in installments

instead of having to pay 999 US upfront

[weak bluff]

Index is worth it if you can make use of its full features

dont buy Index for like your GTX 1060 PC

[gloomy crater]

Actually, unlike the Quest headsets that don't do well with lower end hardware due to the compression that takes place to get the signal to the headset, the Index makes use of a much wider bandwidth connection, so it actually handles lower end hardware better than you'd expect

Like, I wouldn't use a Quest on anything lower than like an RTX 2060, but I've actually run my index on something as low end as an RX550. It wasn't the best experience, but it was definitely playable, which is better than you'd be able to say about a Quest

[weak bluff]

thats connection has nothing to do with performance

the performance is far more important

[gloomy crater]

It's kinda funny how a cheaper headset doesn't do well with lower end hardware, but a super expensive headset works pretty okay with it

[weak bluff]

also Quest 2 has higher res than Index

so your argument fails to see that

[gloomy crater]

I was talking about the quest 1 but ok. I'm just saying a GTX 1060 is perfectly fine for an index

[weak bluff]

same res

quest 1 and Index same res

the factor of compression is not much and improved overtime

also at best it adds latency and processing

Also I have a theory that because of how different Quest headset are connected to pc compared to tohers headset i believe the compression only uses CPU

other vr headset plug directly to graphic card meaning gpu will be the direct output to vr headset

but because Quest uses USB protocol it has to pass through PCI-E which goes through CPU hence CPU is responsible to bring out streaming and will be the one that uses resources

[weak bluff]

the most likely problem of 1060 is probably you will never be able to max out its refresh rate for most of the time

which is a waste

but its fine for future upgrade but then you might stay for newer , cheaper and better headsets

[gloomy crater]

I can't even max out my index's refresh rate Personally, If I were worried about my system specs, I'd try to avoid the index and the FB HMDs all together and steer more towards an OG Vive. It'd probably provide a better experience for the price of the entire setup regardless.

I was hoping I'd finally be able to get my friend a VR capable card once the 6500XT dropped, but seeing everyone's coverage of its launch, it would appear I'm gonna have to keep waiting. Maybe the 3050 will finally end this nightmare

[weak bluff]

wth that card performs worse that 1060 and 580

dont even think of buying it

absolute horrible of a card

especially its 4 GB VRAM and 64 bit bandwidth, no encoder

[gloomy crater]

Ik, that's why I said I'm gonna have to keep waiting. Even at MSRP nobody wants it

[weak bluff]

its a big meme how bad and overpriced that piece of crap is

might as well hunt for used cards instead

[gloomy crater]

I've been doing precisely that for about a month now. Best I've been able to do so far it 980ti's for $350 and 1070s for $400. But my friend is hoping to spend less than 300, which is why I'm hopeful for the 3050. Comes out later this month, 8gb, supposedly pretty okay performance, and should launch around 300 or less. Seems perfect as long as I can get one

[weak bluff]

get 980Ti and be patience for a year

[restive ivy]

I've met soo many people on vr that get the 1060 bc ."it can run vr." But they got the 3gb model and are frustrated that it doesn't work well

[weak bluff]

duh yes

vr is a type that hit hard from lack of vram

high res eat lots of VRAM

[thin briar]

can confirm this playing alyx on a 1070

[restive ivy]

On my secondary rig I've got a 1070 that should be just fine but it's bottlenecks to hell by an 11 year old cpu

[gloomy crater]

Precisely why I bought a 6900XT. Handles 120hz 200% render resolution like a champ. 140hz gets a bit too warm

[past tulip]

Just ordered an Oculus Quest 2. Does anybody have any seated VR games they would recommend? I have of bunch of standard ones on my list to check out, but other than Elite Dangerous, I don't know of any good seated VR experiences

[thin briar]

job simulator worked good for me seated, with a spinny chair though

[restive ivy]

Idk any standalone games

[weak bluff]

i cant even get a good damn graphic card for vr

[past tulip]

Steam is fine. Doesn't need to be Quest-specific games

[restive ivy]

Lmao I tried to run vr on a 950m

[thin briar]

how’d it go?

[restive ivy]

The stutters made it nearly unplayable

[weak bluff]

there are people playing GTX 1050 2GB mobile

[gloomy crater]

Most of my early VR experiences were seated. You'd be more hard pressed to find games that can't be played seated, as most of the good ones have snapturn/smoothturn and virtual crouch options.

[weak bluff]

for beat saber

[restive ivy]

Hla

10/10

[weak bluff]

you might wanna use the accesibility for ducking if u play HLA

[thin briar]

i’ve found snapturn not as natural as just looking around but it still works of course lol

[gloomy crater]

The lowest end GPU I've ever played beatsaber on was an RX550 4gb. On index it was playable but was pretty blurry, on oculus it wouldn't even run.

[gloomy crater]

ah yeah, I prefer snapturn cause it's faster, my sister likes smooth turn because it's less nauseating. It's all preference

[weak bluff]

you may want to settle a >72 fps target for starter

[restive ivy]

I don't think it was necessarily the 950m that was the problem

[weak bluff]

cpu bottleneck?

[restive ivy]

The stutter was probably mainly coming from the 4th gen i7

[weak bluff]

yep probably that

[thin briar]

i personally find snapturn less nauseating but that’s just me

[restive ivy]

I'm lucky enough to have 0 motion problems in vr

[weak bluff]

i frequently get 40fps and i do get sick if i dont stand still

[past tulip]

Assuming that's Half-Life Alyx, it's already on my list. Lol. Looking more for things designed for seated play that I can play at my desk instead of in the next room where there's actually space for regular VR

[thin briar]

only thing that’s made me sick is that half life one port

[restive ivy]

It helps to have higher refresh rate

[gloomy crater]

SAME she says it's disorienting to just snap in a direction than having it smoothly go there, but in my opinion, the motion blur is way worse than the snapping.

[thin briar]

not a vr game so that expected

[weak bluff]

try blade and sorcery?

[restive ivy]

Tho cyberpunk vr did make me feel uncomfortable

[weak bluff]

snap user here it really helps better

[thin briar]

yeah aha, unnatural for your fov to move without you moving, while with snapturn it fades

[weak bluff]

low spec vr gamer

[restive ivy]

I absolutely despise the vignetting that happens in some games

I always turn that off

Like in skyrim vr

[thin briar]

if you don’t get sick that’s great

[weak bluff]

amd fsr uses only gpu right?

[restive ivy]

Yes

[weak bluff]

i wish i can offload my cpu somehow

[restive ivy]

I turned on vrss on my 3080 and tbh I can't see it doing anything at all

[weak bluff]

i have spare cpu horsepower good for loading world and avatar but does not help fps

[weak bluff]

did you get this kind of feel when it only sharp at centre?

[restive ivy]

It looked the same

Even at the edges

Tho

[weak bluff]

then maybe res is so high its unnoticable?

[restive ivy]

Might be that I'm already rendering 250% of the index

[weak bluff]

im a mere GTX 970 user

🥲

[restive ivy]

So its probably not even turning on

I left it on adaptive

I can manually turn it on

Yeah on my secondary rig I realized just how much cpu bottleneck there is where in vrchat I can triple my res and not lose any fps

And then also half the res and not gain fps

[weak bluff]

anyone tried modifying virtual reality pre-rendered frames?

[restive ivy]

I've tried it

[weak bluff]

any fps improvements?

[restive ivy]

It couldnt tell it did anything

[weak bluff]

cpu usage change?

[restive ivy]

If it did anything it would be to gpu

It would probably mainly lower latency when you turn the number down but has greater risk of dropped frames

[weak bluff]

i want to figure if there is a way to offload work to cpu more tha gpu especially vrchat

[restive ivy]

Having that number higher would do the opposite of that

You may want to set it to 0 if that's possible

Lower res would help

If your willing

And safety settings

[rapid otter]

It's only made for headsets with eye tracking

[restive ivy]

Its not like I need it

I already have stupid res and plenty o frames

But thats interesting bc it doesn't mention that in the description of it on thier website

Or I missed it

[rapid otter]

But in Boneworks you can get this by using the fsr mod, native or even super sampled, and the side are upscaled

[restive ivy]

You can also turn on driver level resolution scaling

I don't know how it plays with steamvr tho

[rapid otter]

You can super sample in steam VR with the resolution scaler

[haughty thistle]

Hate to pick out this "old" Topic, but I can't help but correct this statement.
The Quest 2 has a higher physical resolution resulting in less SDE, but from what I understand the PCVR res for both the Quest 1 and Quest 2 is the same, and the Quest 1 already transferred the image at a lower res then the Index. Comparing the two, the Quest 1 image looks noticeably softer (like running the Index at maybe 70-80% render res). As that's the resolution transferred to the Quest, nothing can be really done to sharpen up the image (other then PostProcessing effects like what Oculus is doing now with "Sharpen+"). Apparently VD does have a higher res on the Quest 2, but considering that the SOC is the bottleneck, I don't believe that it's native res. You can render that much, but it's wasted resources tbh...

[restive ivy]

In the oculus app you can set it to 5x which actually puts it through at native resolution

However it begins to compress withough high speed connections

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, but it's render res you're adjusting. The Transfer res is hard-limited to whatever 1x is afaik

Granted, as I only have a Quest 1 I can't really test this (the slider only goes up to 1.1x, which doesn't look any better maybe slightly less Aliasing)

[restive ivy]

When I run at 5x it looks better

Side by side with my index

[haughty thistle]

The more you know...

[restive ivy]

Running 100%res on steamvr with 5x on the oculus app

For the quest 2

Looks better than running 250% res on my index

However I dislike the color balance on the quest 2

And there are compression artifacts when doing the quest wired

[haughty thistle]

The only thing I really use my Index for nowadays is for Beat Saber tbh...
I've been spoiled by the Reverb G2, Vive Pro 2 and Varjo Aero in terms of resolution...

[restive ivy]

When wireless at 200mbps bandwidth limit there is no compression

But a bit more latency

Honestly I would consider higher res headsets but there are features on the index I'm not willing to give up for res

[gloomy crater]

The only thing about my index I don't like is the lenses. They're really... glare-y. Idk how to describe it. If I'm not looking into them at just the right angle, it's like there's a huge godray obstructing my vision

[restive ivy]

Lenses are okay

But not the best

[haughty thistle]

What kills the Quest for me is actually the Latency. Even in wired mode, I can see the controller lagging behind my movements. It's especially noticeable in Games like Beat Saber or just when waving the controller back and forth. Looks like it's moving through jelly (motion prediction to reduce the effects of latency rears it's ugly head here)

[restive ivy]

That's hardware level too can't be fixed

[haughty thistle]

It's fine in Standalone for me o.O

[restive ivy]

The polling rate for the tracking is rather low

So it doesn't report that often

Its smoothed on desktop

And that's where the jelly comes from

[haughty thistle]

Ah. That may be why then...

I have 0 problems hitting cuts in faster songs on Standalone, but as soon as I run the PCVR version, I constantly miss cubes (either because the controller was a couple of frames late or because the smoothing pulled the controller away before touching the cube >.>)

Dunno how people can play Beat Saber PCVR on the Quest tbh

[gloomy crater]

I'm looking for an excuse to upgrade from my Index, but the only thing that could really tempt me at the moment is if a headset came out that has better res and lenses than the index, does wireless PCVR at comparable performance to the wired index, has similar or better FOV, and works with the index controllers out of the box. So, basically... the index, but wireless, and with the varjo aero's lenses and pixel density.

[restive ivy]

I find while it's faster on the standalone the actual quality is poor

[gloomy crater]

Both my mom and sister play beatsaber on PC via virtual desktop, on a quest 1 and 2 respectively. I also don't know how they do it

[restive ivy]

That's why it's smoothed on desktop

[haughty thistle]

does wireless PCVR at comparable performance to the wired
Currently that's only the Vive HMDs. You could consider the Vive Pro 2, but expect the image to look soft (as the Wireless Adapter transfers a much smaller res then native; not that you'd be able to run it at native anyways due to the crappy software adjusting res according to HW)

[restive ivy]

Honestly the res is the only shortcoming of the index the lenses are passable

But the headphones are phenomenal

Fov is respectable

And the 144hz is big difference for me

[haughty thistle]

Lenses are a Sidestep from the Index in comparison to the VP2. The VP2 doesn't have those pesky internal reflections, and the lens doesn't "light up" the moment you look at something bright, but you'll have tons of god-rays going in and out from what you're looking. It's like the bad properties of the OG Vive Lenses paired with the bad properties of the Reverb G2 lenses tbh

[gloomy crater]

Hopefully whatever Valve is working on right now is the answer to my prayers. As long as it may take

[restive ivy]

Also I find wmr headset to be nie unusable

The mixed reality portal is garbageware

After valve graces us with the Deckard headset

I hope we see the index 2

[haughty thistle]

I found that the G2 is fine, as long as you don't expect phenomenal controller tracking and use it for SteamVR only. WMR is pretty good at shutting off garbage in the background while SteamVR is running (unlike Oculus who tank performance with all their garbage still running)

[gloomy crater]

If the deckard does wireless PCVR with native steam integration, I'll take it, even if the resolution, fov, and refresh rate are lower than the index. At least it's something

[haughty thistle]

In-fact, in some titles the G2 performs about equal to my Quest and sometimes even better then it...

[restive ivy]

In my wmr experience the portal was constantly closing my games and steamvr and the controller tracking was awful

[weak bluff]

Anyone tried installing openvr-fsr on vrchat oculus store?

[haughty thistle]

Deckard most likely is going to have a WiGig 2 adapter if it get's wireless, which should be able to run the HMD at native res, although at a slight latency and heavy performance hit...

[restive ivy]

So its a standalone with around quest level hardware as it turns out

[haughty thistle]

openvr-fsr, as the title suggests is designed to work with OpenVR (aka SteamVR) applications. It won't run on anything that's not SteamVR unfortunatly

[restive ivy]

And can get a module that gives it steam deck level hardware

Natively running pcvr

[haughty thistle]

The WMR portal only closes SteamVR when it puts the HMD into sleep, which it only does after like 15 minutes of inactivity (aka HMD laying on a desk without being moved)

[restive ivy]

It was doing it in game

[weak bluff]

I wonder since deckard will use qualcomm processor will it be well compatible with x86_64 PC games

prob not

[gloomy crater]

Like standalone, but with the SteamVR library? That'd be pretty cool considering how limited the standalone oculus library is. But I don't expect that to happen

[restive ivy]

The module has a 64 but processor

[haughty thistle]

Then you had a faulty HMD. It reads the wear sensor of the HMD to figure out if it can even go ahead, and if that sensor is faulty, it probably thought you weren't wearing the HMD. Either that, or your install was f'ed...

[restive ivy]

The sensor worked

As it turned off the display when I removed it

It did it on 3 computers

[restive ivy]

https://youtu.be/_a_9hgE6sN4

[haughty thistle]

From what I've heard, one of the ideas that Valve had for Deckard was to put the XR2 (with beefier cooling) for standalone, and then have a module with an x86_64 processor inside for lighter SteamVR apps to run standalone as well as a wireless module that uses the WiGig 2 and the XR2 for split rendering

[weak bluff]

i dont believe that

its cheaper and faster to just emulate right on ARM

[haughty thistle]

I never had any such issues, nor have I heard of anyone else having such issues...
But what you said about the controller tracking is true...

[haughty thistle]

Cheaper, yes.
Faster, no.

[restive ivy]

That thing on the back is module with the apu thing in it

Prob gon heavy af lmao

[haughty thistle]

Whatever Apple is doing with Rosetta 2 is only possible as they've built certain x86 instructions into their Silicon. Qualcomm processors don't have that. So performance is heavily reduced. If you've ever tried running like Windows XP or Windows 7 in a VM on a smartphone or tried running x86 native apps in Windows on Arm, you know what I mean. It's just not feasible for Gaming...

[weak bluff]

then its better to only include x86-64 cpu

[gloomy crater]

Ah yes, hang my APU off the back of my head as a counterbalance like how people put battery banks on the quest 1

[thin briar]

looks like a warp core compared to the quest 2 strap

[weak bluff]

and knowing Valve made deal with AMD semi-custom its not impossible

[restive ivy]

He goes into detail in the video I linked

[weak bluff]

it does not explain it

[haughty thistle]

The APU is most likely too hot and power hungry to achieve the sort of battery life Valve is hoping for, so maybe that's why?

[restive ivy]

@weak bluff

I'd skip to the specs section of the vid

I think it's intended to be like a pcvr that has a booster pack that let's you play it without a pc

Idrk

[weak bluff]

so... that does not make it standalone

[restive ivy]

All we have are leaks and speculation so

It could be anything

I mean

Its basically strapping a pc to your head

It is standalone capable looks like

[weak bluff]

and the issue here is its a standalone running on ARM

like Quest

that cant do PCVR

[restive ivy]

That's what the module is for

It will run the x86

[weak bluff]

im questioning its PCVR capability with ARM

[restive ivy]

And handshake it over to the main vr

No

It would pretty much run like a quest withought the module

[weak bluff]

and knowing what valve have done will valve make HL:A a ARM capable game?

[restive ivy]

Not looking at it right

[weak bluff]

they updated half life original games to be steam deck compatible

[restive ivy]

The big boy games will not run on the arm

[weak bluff]

so they may do the same

or at least make another vr game for that arm platform

[restive ivy]

They may make things like the lab compatible

But the games will probably stay on the x86

As to push the apu module

Or use with pc

[weak bluff]

i hope valve also open its os that runs standalone on it so other vr makers can use to compete with Oculus

which if its linux its must

[restive ivy]

Steam os is open

In all forms

[weak bluff]

SteamOS is not an ARM compatible OS but possible to dovelop into one\

[restive ivy]

That's what they are doing for the deckard

It will run an arm compatible steam os

And then when you ask it to play x86 games it will make use of the module or a pc

[weak bluff]

actually i just read more about steamos again and no its not possible unless Valve make entirely new OS

because

SteamOS 3.0 is based on Arch Linux

which only works on x86_64

[restive ivy]

They don't have a choice

They are doing something

They won't put android on it

[weak bluff]

well yeah android is technically linux

https://twitter.com/SadlyItsBradley/status/1445542479046930435

Brad Lynch (@SadlyItsBradley)

THIS IS IT! NOT A DRILL!

DECKARD QUALCOMM??? https://t.co/0yYjBzfPlA

Likes

132

Twitter · Oct 6, 2021, 12:12 AM

[restive ivy]

I love that they are finally starting to make x86 mobile phones

[weak bluff]

who?

[restive ivy]

https://youtu.be/fCKMxzz9cjs

[weak bluff]

thats an ARM phone

x86 phones are long dead

[restive ivy]

Ahh I was mistaken

I figured once they Said they could put windows on it I got confused

[weak bluff]

we never had x86 phone since Spreadtrum SC9853i

[restive ivy]

Like we have tablets that can run windows but not phones

Tbh I dont see why you would want a phone with windows

[weak bluff]

intel tried hard compete in past but failed

now with foveros i hope intel try again

ARM is a very limited architecture that brings only more limitation to industry

[restive ivy]

I don't know for sure but I really hope the deckard isn't the replacement for the index

I hope we still get an index 2

[weak bluff]

valve prob only have interest to boost their core that is Steam platform

their hardware sale is not meant to sell more hardware only aid the Steam platform

which makes Index 2 less feasible

[restive ivy]

Idk

Valve has said they def want to make more vr

But they never said to what degree

[weak bluff]

its the same story with Valve Steam Deck

[restive ivy]

I love using the index bc its first party

For steamvr

[weak bluff]

valve games are always made with very high expectation so whatever they do they make it make use full capability

so their next game will be for sure for best vr headset

[restive ivy]

And I'd hate to have to move to another company to get my next vr

[weak bluff]

it already happened with their leaked game in development designed especially for steam deck

the HL citadel

just saying with so many evidence so far its unlikely valve will do anything other that top high end like Index 2

also their company team is not big

if they are doing anything they will focus full on a specific thing

remember Valve staff count is only

~360

far lower than many AAA studios

and yet they carry many top popular stuff

[restive ivy]

That's just who they are

[weak bluff]

HL:A dev was a result of from small team attracting many other team members to join

they wont spare capacity for such seperate hardware team

unless well Index 2 succeed deckard

[restive ivy]

I doubt they will just dump the index

Seeing how well it did

[weak bluff]

they will make new vr headset but they wont make a higher spec version

more likely higher feature version

[restive ivy]

And how far it brought them as product maker

Valve is about the bleeding edge of tech features

Its never about the highest end for them

Its about the technology and the design that goes into it

[weak bluff]

Valve guide other VR makers what to do

so they can continue sell games on Steam

thats their role in VR

and Index + HL:A are a combo to push that

[restive ivy]

Honestly im not sure what I'll do if I don't get an index 2

[weak bluff]

it means other vr makers will take that role

unfortunately for you the successor will be another company

[restive ivy]

Bc im very satisfied with index other than res

So I'd have to make sure whatever other headset has all the features that I loved on the index

[weak bluff]

to me as long there are more various vr makers i dont ind using them

but valve brand is just so good

but it also preserve valve hardware logo as for the best of the best

[restive ivy]

The point of high end vr is no compromise

So I won't settle for anything less than the index

[weak bluff]

yeah thats why valve pushed to $999 Index

they knew its not for everyone

but its a no compromise

[restive ivy]

The res was very high for 2019

[weak bluff]

and for future to catch up

[weak bluff]

the biggest spec is prob 144Hz

its been know gamers play better with 144Hz VR lol

[restive ivy]

And the reason i love the index soo much is bc its enthusiasts grade while only being 999

You can get arguably better

[weak bluff]

oh you want more? Valve actually wanted with their Vader prototype lol

[restive ivy]

But that cost double or more

Like the pimax

[weak bluff]

for now best combo would be vive pro 2 + knuckle tracking set so index is currently set back

we will have something better

[restive ivy]

I don't like the pro 2

Or atleast I'd rather the index

144hz

[weak bluff]

i can understand that

[restive ivy]

And the headphones

I cannot stress the open air headphones are god tier

As far as immersion

You can get better sounding

But not as immersive

[restive ivy]

@haughty thistle not only is the quest having more pixels total it also is more pixel dense as the fov is lesser

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, but it's still not as pixel dense as like the Reverb G2, Vive Pro 2 and Varjo Aero (all being native HMDs, they don't have as much overhead )

[weak bluff]

the worst thing about quest spec wise is probably low FOV

the Quest pixel density is not much of an issue compared to other similarly priced

quest 2 has even lower FOV than quest 1 which sucks

and I really am annoyed with its poor black levels

[restive ivy]

Also I just looked at the aero's specs

Why does it cost soo much?

The fov isn't special

90hz meh

[weak bluff]

they prob had to push profit margin

[haughty thistle]

The Aspheric lenses. Those things are expensive to develop and manufacture

[restive ivy]

Res is good

[weak bluff]

its more like business and professional consumers which money is not an issue

[haughty thistle]

And they are a European company (Finnish to be exact). Employees here are a lot more expensive as compared to the States or China...

[restive ivy]

I guess so but I don't see why I think it was thrillseeker said it the best vr

[weak bluff]

taxes are higher in EU

[haughty thistle]

Trust me, the Aspheric lenses do a lot for sharpness and contrast. If you think the Reverb G2 looks sharp, this is a whole 'nother level. No SDE. Period. It's the brightest headset I've tried so far without compromising on the blacks too much (while still being LCD based), and the sharpness. Like I can't convey how it feels like to not look at a bunch of pixels anymore...

[weak bluff]

remember how much more expensive the Quest 2 enterprise version is at $800 that is to show how much you have to sell in that high end in order to not depend on other source of profit (facebook sucking data)

they only need to sell that little demand that desperate for good specs and nothing more

[restive ivy]

For me no sde is not as important as smoothness

I'm sure it beautiful

[haughty thistle]

And there's also the point of diminishing returns, where getting that extra bit better costs so much more. The higher end a product is, the more expensive it becomes. The more expensive something is, the less people can afford it. The less people buy something, less devices need to be made. Less devices being made means it get's more expensive

The Index is right at the foot of this "price downwards spiral". Where it's just expensive enough that people buy it enough to be still somewhat decent in price. The Varjo Aero for sure is half way down that spiral. I mean, heck, look at the Xtal 8k or Xtal 3. Those things are more then triple the price (and also sold to private individuals btw)

[restive ivy]

That's what valve does

[weak bluff]

yeah but Index and Varjo have different goal

but whatever it is

[restive ivy]

They did that with the index the price point was insane

[weak bluff]

there will be a target consumer

and some peopel will buy it

[haughty thistle]

90Hz is plenty fine. And this is from someone who's tried a Pimax 5k Super at 180Hz. The only games so far that I've tried, where the difference in Hz is noticable are Beat Saber and other games like it. Otherwise it feels smoother, but not the massive improvement some people seem to think...

[restive ivy]

And the steam deck

I'm saying valve could do it but it's a matter of if they care enough to

I guess I'm fucking spoiled but any display below 120hz does not look smooth to me

Every screen I use is atleast 120

I see now tho the appeal of the aero

And def see the market and honestly I'd love to have and use one

But I wouldn't buy one

90 hz feels like too much of compromise

[haughty thistle]

If you think the Varjo Aero is outrageously expensive, then you're not the target customer. The whole reason this thing is called "Aero", is because it's meant for Flight Simming. And you know how crazy those people can get just for immersion. Just because it's meant for Flight Simming, doesn't mean it's not good at other titles though (which is why I bought it). And seeing every tiny little detail on the gloves in HLA or the intricate stitching on the leather steering wheel in Euro Truck Simulator 2. It's amazing, and exactly what I imagined VR would be, when I first dove in...

[weak bluff]

i know that

and i am aware

[restive ivy]

And once we get to the point where it is higher I'll get one

I'll live with my index for another 2 or 3 years

[weak bluff]

you better be

its still really good

[haughty thistle]

Trust me, you wouldn't be able to run this thing at anything higher then 90Hz. I have a 3090, and most games struggle at native res. But even at 27PPD (native is 35), it still looks noticably sharper then the Reverb G2, with about the same performance as that

[restive ivy]

You don't have to render at native res

[weak bluff]

higher refresh is the best for comfort

[restive ivy]

Its the sde that your trying to lose

[haughty thistle]

Bruh. Why get a high res HMD, if you're running it at lower res anyways. Just makes it all look blurry (kinda like when I forget to wear my prescription)

[restive ivy]

That is accomplished regardless of render res

I'm happy with the render I'm currently running

I just wanna lose the sde

[haughty thistle]

Personally, I want my HMDs to run at native res or close to that. The whole reason I'm loafing the Vive Pro 2 is because it can't run at native res and looks as blurry as a Reverb G2 at like 50% render res. Details get lost as they get upscaled >.>

[restive ivy]

And as gpus grow I can get closer to the native res

Or even higher at some point tho it wouldnt really matter at that point

[weak bluff]

sde isnt that hard to fix you can achieve sde on low res with just better screen and enough res that is not very high

[restive ivy]

Well as he said the aero has 0 sde

Its like having an 8k display

You'd prolly play at 4k and upscale

[haughty thistle]

You can get 1080Ti performance maybe on a 3070 right now? Till the performance of the 3090 becomes affordable, a couple of years will go into the world. VR in the meantime? 4000x4000 pixels per Eye. Yay! Let it all become a blurry mess in the goal to "remove SDE"...

You can get rid of SDE in other ways btw. Like making the pixels themselves larger (on CRTs that was known as "dot pitch")

[restive ivy]

Its not blurry you clown

At those resolutions it's diminishing on the res

We can hardly raytrace 4k without dlss

[haughty thistle]

Again, I'm looking at it from the perspective of affordability. 27PPD on a 3090 is fine, but go with any lower end card and you'll quickly end up back in render res terretory of the Index. Which upscaled to such a resolution becomes blurry. That's the nature of the beast...

DLSS, while supporting VR, basically no game has support for it. It would need to be implented into the runtime to actually find proper adoption

[restive ivy]

I'm sure the 3080 would do okay

I run 300%res of the index at times

It would still be better

I'm limited by pure pixel count

[haughty thistle]

Just to give you a perspective. 27PPD is about 300% render res on the Index 🙂

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/rwqeki/varjo_aero_performance_metrics_rtx_3090_different/

[restive ivy]

I'm saying I could run the aero at the 300% res of the index

And as gpus get better I can inch higher

Even when upscale it would still be better than the index

Blurry technically

But still higher res

[haughty thistle]

I just feel like VR resolutions are outpacing GPU performance very quickly, and people just keep talking about it as if it's all VR needs. But they forget the whole equation. Just like with a PC monitor, you'd either have high refreshrate, high resolution or ultra details, maybe a combination of the three, but you'd always need to balance these factors, whereas currently the VR industry be like "all three let's go!!", while forgetting about the hardware that needs to render it...

[restive ivy]

That's what we do with desktop games if you cant run native res you upsacle with the likes of fsr in order to get higher fps counts

[haughty thistle]

When Qualcomm announced the XR2, people were like "OMG it can run 3k by 3k per eye, that's the future", but the reality of it is, at such a resolution you may be getting 90fps at maybe phone game quality from like 2015 or something...

[restive ivy]

Samsung has announced a vr display with 10000ppi

[haughty thistle]

FSR is nothing but a fancy bi-linear filter tbh. As you crank the upscaling effects it just becomes blurry blobs. And I can say this for certain as Hitman 3 uses FSR in a certain range with a fixed resolution and it looks absolute horrible on the Aero...

[haughty thistle]

Forget about PPI. It's the PPD that counts (so the pixel density you get through the lens)

[restive ivy]

Yes but that ppi would allow for a high ppd

With proper lenses

[haughty thistle]

Not necessairly. If it's a qOLED, then it could also just be like 3000x3000 pixels, while being super tiny...

[restive ivy]

Its a display technology

Its pure pixel density the resolution can scale with however big they make a display using the tech

[haughty thistle]

That's why I said, forget about PPI, it's the PPD that counts. Charts like the "VR resolution" one on Wikipedia (basically where they overlay the resolutions of different HMDs) are misleading, as it looks like the Pimax 8k X has a similar sharpness as the Reverb G2 (same height but wider), whereas in reality the Pimax 8k X is much closer to the Index then people realise (as it's streched over such a large FOV)

[restive ivy]

I'm talking about a building block

[haughty thistle]

Then I take back that. But still. PPI and "display resolution" mean nothing for VR. The only measure that actually tells you how sharp a headset looks is the PPD. And so far, only Varjo seems to agree >.>

[restive ivy]

This tech used for building high ppd vr displays

Like the aero

[haughty thistle]

You can have a super dense qOLED, but with a small resolution to keep the HMD small (like on the Arpara)

[restive ivy]

As I said they can make the display anysize

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/316681-samsung-stanford-built-a-10000-ppi-display-that-could-revolutionize-vr-ar

[weak bluff]

lol but then it will be bottlenecked by hardware limitation

[haughty thistle]

Not necessarily. All tech can only scale so far (I mean, just look at the different silicon Nodes). The practical limit for qOLED is pretty much 1" in diagonal. And how many Pixels they've managed to cram in there so far? 4000x4000 (eMagine has shown off such a screen)

[restive ivy]

Good lord it doesn't have to render nativly

[weak bluff]

but we cant render that and we dont need that much

i can only imagine it useful for scientists

but vr community though its for them

[haughty thistle]

The upper limit of what the humanb eye can see is debatable. Some say it's 60PPD others say it's 120PPD. After having experienced the Aero (which already is 35PPD, beyond the point where SDE is noticeable aka 30PPD), I personally fall into the 60PPD camp. Anything more then that isn't useful for consumers (basically just snakeoil like what you have with audiophile gear)

[weak bluff]

we prob get brain control vr before we get that

its more useful for AR and MR

[restive ivy]

Which is why I find the idea of a 8k 27" monitor to be dumb

[haughty thistle]

Actually: Varjo already made a 70PPD HMD. They used a 1920x1920 resolution qOLED for the center of the FOV and then the same Mini-LED LCD for the rest of the FOV. If they now manage to also move that "focus display" around with eye tracking, then there's no need for higher res screens tbh (other then to reduce bulk)

[restive ivy]

At the distance you would be from it you cannot resolve the res

[weak bluff]

even if it succeed it wont be a permanent success

there will be a limit

when we just dont care about higher anymore

[restive ivy]

Or the people that want 4k screens on a phone

Your eyes cannot see the pixel already

[haughty thistle]

The human eye can only see about an 8° FOV at full sharpness at any given time. And that's where you'd want that 60PPD or 120PPD. Anywhere else, might as well have it at lower resolutions tbh. That's why foveated rendering is so important and why the lack of support in SteamVR is such a bummer

[weak bluff]

fair

high res could make sense for esport distance games as well

it will create categories like how we got in monitors today

content creators favour high colour accuracy over high refresh rate

gamers favour high refresh rate

[restive ivy]

Chicken bread btw I'm looking at it from the perspective of vrchat

Almost everything is pretty close to you

[weak bluff]

thus divide gaming monitor, creative monitor and normal monitor for cheap

[restive ivy]

and wouldn't be blurry upscaled

[weak bluff]

im surprised no vr headset went crazy with gaming marketing like ROG, TUF yet

all of them market like a family product

[restive ivy]

I love that the index wasn't even marked

[haughty thistle]

Trust me, it will be. If the image get‘s upscale heavily, everything get‘s blurry, including things up-close

[restive ivy]

I don't see how

Would it not still look better than the index?

Index native res vs the aero at 50% res

Technically would still look better right?

[haughty thistle]

Try the VP2 on something like an RTX 2070. You may have barely any SDE, but looks about as sharp as the Index at like 60% :/
I‘lol try the Aero at 50% later today, but I don’t think it’s gonna be that sharp…

It’s hard to convey this in a thru-the-lens picture or screenshot unfortunately, Sous just have to try it yourself or take my word for it :/

[restive ivy]

50% was an estimation

I think I see what wrong here

So the index at 100% is 2016x2240

So I run it at 300%

6048x6720

[haughty thistle]

I had the Aero once accidentally running on 200% once. Personally, that was like the pinnical in sharpness, but it didn’t run very well

[restive ivy]

Would doing that exact same res on the aero not look better?

[haughty thistle]

300% in SteamVR is 3x the pixel count, not 3x the resolution

[restive ivy]

Okay so my my math is off

But doesn't change what I'm asking

How a bout this

You have a 1080p display

But you are supersampling to 4k

Then you get an 8k screen

But keep running at 4k

Would it not look crisper than the 1080p display?

[haughty thistle]

No. It would in fact look blurry

[restive ivy]

That doesn't make sense

Your saying it would be worse than the 1080p display?

[haughty thistle]

Perfect example are actually all those games from the 90s that run at like VGA resolution. If you play such a game on a modern monitor, it would in fact look quite blurry

[restive ivy]

Yes blurry

But how vould it be worse?

[haughty thistle]

Well, the 4k may look crisp on a 8k screen, if you do integer upscaling

[restive ivy]

There are many upscale methods

Infact the analog pocket has a higher res display that the old Gameboy but looks great

In certain upscale methods

[haughty thistle]

The problem is the so called "Fixed Pixel Raster". Modern screens have one resolution and that one resolution only. If you want to display an image of a different resolution you have to scale it into that raster. Nearest Neighbour upscaling is the only one that doesn't cause loss in sharpness (as it keeps the hard pixel edges of the original screen), however if done with a non-integer scaler (so let's say 1.5x), certain rows are displayed more often then others, making the image appear warped in a way. Integer upscaling is basically that, but making sure that the scalar is always an integer multiple, meaning that every row and column get's repeated exactly the same amount of times. You can fir a 1080p image 4x into a 4k one, meaning you can do 2x integer upscaling on a 1080p image and still have it come out as crisp as on a 1080p monitor.

[haughty thistle]

There you see the exact problem I mentioned. Bilinear looks downright blurry in comparison to the others, but you'd want that over Nearest Neighbour for any scale factor that is not integer

[restive ivy]

So then why dont we just do integer upscaling?

[green crypt]

With game textures it's different so a 4k texture at 2k is better then a 2k but as a game just run it a native Res always. Only if your native resolution is lagy change resolution scale. But never upscale a texture pretty much way more blurry. Sometimes it works but only on older things and looks wrong

[haughty thistle]

Because for integer upscaling to work, you need to half you width and height resolution (aka 25% render resolution in SteamVR)

[restive ivy]

I see

So run as close to native res as possible?

Things like vrss seems like it would help alot with that

[haughty thistle]

With the Aero at the 35PPD preset, you'd land in a render resolution somewhere in the neighbourhood of the OG Vive...

[haughty thistle]

VRSS is not an upscale technique. It's a dynamic Super Sampling Technique. The best approach would be to not render everything at native res all the time, as your eyes can only see so much at a time. The only app I've tried so far with eye-tracked foveated rendering is the Varjo Workspace environment, and it really doesn't look any different from running the HMD at native res flat-out, yet that's not what it's doing...

[restive ivy]

And i gues that's also the magic of dlss

I remember that now yes

You would want kind of the reverse of vrss

So yeah I gues foveated rendering

[haughty thistle]

You can upscale everything with bilinear, that your eyes currently doesn't see sharp anyways. It's virtually unnoticable. We don't need no stinking AI upscaling, if Eye-Tracked Foveated rendering finally becomes a standard. But the Industry seems to think otherwise >.>

[restive ivy]

But understand I'm trying to say that dlss helps performance withough too much sacrifice to sharpness

Compared to just straight upscaling

[haughty thistle]

True. I'm not saying AI upscaling is bad, it's just that the industry seems to still think in the mindset of desktop rendering when it comes to performance optimisation in VR...

[restive ivy]

But thats the problem with dlss

It has to be very carefully implemented and

I don't think would really work for vr

Bc it "decides" what should and shouldn't be crisp

Where as with foveated rendering its based on what you actually are looking at

[haughty thistle]

Oh, it does. Nvidia has VR support for DLSS ever since version 2.3, and there is at least one game out there that has it implemented (don't remember which though)

[restive ivy]

How is it implemented?

I think foveated rendering would be preferable

[haughty thistle]

Oh yeah, foveated rendering is still preferable, but in that game DLSS is used for the whole FOV, you can basically tell it to render then game at like 90% render res or something and it's then upscaled with DLSS to native

[restive ivy]

I mean it would work but

[haughty thistle]

Ah! Into the Radius was the name of that game

[restive ivy]

If you looked you be able to see the upscale parts

Whereas with foveated rendering you could have the thing you see be native

[haughty thistle]

Eh, that's not really how DLSS works? It's an AI that basically analyses the frames and tries to figure out what each pixel of the target resoltution should look like based on motion vectors, previous frames and well, the current frame

It always upscaled the whole screen (just like FSR)

[restive ivy]

I see

[haughty thistle]

Well, OpenVR-FSR does have a radial selection where the center is rendered at native and then the rest is upscaled with FSR and the same thing happens in Hitman 3 VR...

[restive ivy]

Well dlss would really be a crutch

Same thing with that

[haughty thistle]

Apparently the "Quality" DLSS setting in Into the Radius looked like native, while halving the amount of reprojected frames (according to this one german Article I found)

Reverb G2 at native res (on a 3080):

of synthetic frames without DLSS: 431

of synthetic frames with DLSS on Quality: 180

[restive ivy]

Hmm

Well I hope more games get support for either

Doesn't boneworks have something along those lines?

No

[haughty thistle]

Like I said, I've seen the implementation of FSR in Hitman 3, and it looked absolutely atrocious on the Varjo Aero. You could clearly see where it went from the natively rendered image over to the upscaled one. Granted, it did look like the upscaled section had a hardcoded resolution (as it wasn't as bad on like a Quest 1) but still...

[restive ivy]

I wanna do some testing

How much supersanplin go I need to reach the res of the aero

I wanna see how it runs on my setup

I can manually go to 1000%

Of the index res

[haughty thistle]

35PPD mode on the Aero renderes about 4100x3500 Pixels per eye

Maybe factor in some overhead for like the Eye Tracking and the fact that the render mask on the Aero is basically non-existent...

[restive ivy]

Okay that's actually around 460%I think

Does steam vr show per eye?

Or total?

[haughty thistle]

In case you don't know what a render mask is, it's basically an area that is skipped in rendering to improve performance. On the Index it's so tightly nitted, that you can sometimes see it through the lens (just blackness), whereas Varjo decided to make it basically a square

I'd say you'd want more then 500% to simulate the lack of said render mask...

[haughty thistle]

SteamVR shows per eye. The res I said there is also the per Eye res on the Aero

[restive ivy]

Okay

No anti aliasing

Lmao

Even 2x msaa would be a nogo

I cant try it atm as I'm not home

Buut

I can attempt it on a fx870e at 5.2 ghz

And a 1070

With the quest 2 at native res

Let's start a fire

Let me pull up the 100%per eye

[haughty thistle]

I think perf wise, you can compare it best with the OpenVR Benchmark. I have posted my results (with the different HMDs) here: https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/rwqeki/varjo_aero_performance_metrics_rtx_3090_different/ and here: https://imgur.com/a/VfENGOX

A similar result in OpenVR benchmark should mean similar performance. I'm mostly running my Aero at 30PPD currently and don't really have much performance issues

[restive ivy]

My main computer has 3900x and an rtx 3080 suprim x

I was gonna get the 3090 but I hesitated and the price doubled overnight

[haughty thistle]

OVRB is the only synthetic benchmark that actually takes VR hardware overhead into consideration by running on your VR headset, and unlike just running a VR title, it's nicely repeatable...

[restive ivy]

Garbage lmao

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, I was lucky to get a 3090 FE at MSRP, a couple of months after release. Originally wanted to go for a 3080, but wasn't able to get one :/

[restive ivy]

Oof

I got my 3080 suprim x for $1600

[haughty thistle]

Now I'm honestly happy that I have the 3090 now xD

[haughty thistle]

That's a RIP, but I guess the reality with scalpers and whatnot...

[restive ivy]

Sooo

I put it at 4056x4204

And it hasn't died in the steam vr menu

Starting vrchat

[haughty thistle]

It's likely still less then the Aero at native res still. Again, the Index has a proper render mask, the Aero doesn't, meaning the Aero renders more Pixels at the same res then the Index

[restive ivy]

I'm using the quest 2 atm

Soo it's getting steady 23 fps

Which it normally gets 27 fps

[haughty thistle]

VRC is CPU bound anyways, so not really a surprise

[restive ivy]

Yep

[haughty thistle]

I get about similar framerates in VRC on both my Aero and Index. Maybe a couple of worlds that make the PC sweat, like some of Fins worlds...

[restive ivy]

Well

The dynamic bones will be mulithreaded soon

[haughty thistle]

That as well